1 Thursday, 17 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom, especially to those I hardly can see but those are always there
7 to assist us.
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Stanislav Galic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Before we continue the examination of the present witness, I would
13 like to turn into closed session.
14 [Closed session]
21 [Open session]
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, after we return to open session and
23 before I recommence cross-examination, might I raise an issue --
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Mr. Ierace.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
1 MR. IERACE: Yesterday, Mr. President, you asked if it was
2 contested by the Defence [sic] that there were daily combats, and I said
3 it was not. I seek to amend that to rather than daily, frequent combats,
4 because there is evidence that there was from time to time some ceasefires
5 through the indictment period where the level of combat activity either
6 diminished or, in particular, after Markale, virtually ceased for a period
7 of time. What is agreed is that there were frequent combats.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understood, but I perhaps have to check it
9 perhaps first whether it was combat on a daily basis. In view of the
10 testimony of the witness, I would say that this specifically related to
11 the time when he was at the front line. That is how I understood the
12 testimony, and that is also how I understood my own question. But if
13 there is any problem with that, the Defence will then have an opportunity
14 to come back to this.
15 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just to
17 make sure that everything is clear, I believe that I think the Prosecution
18 made a lapsus lingua in page 2 line 2 just to clarify things in the
19 transcript, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, it is contested by the Prosecution,
21 rather than by the Defence.
22 Madam Registrar could you please escort Mr. DP6 into the courtroom
23 and since facial distortion is in effect, I take it that he will not be
24 visible for the outside world when going to his seat.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Good morning.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. DP6. Mr. DP6, may I remind you
4 again that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave the day
5 before yesterday. Your cross-examination will now be continued by
6 Mr. Ierace.
7 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you Mr. President. Would Madam Registrar have
9 at hand Defence Exhibit 1761, that is the photograph that I showed to the
10 witness yesterday. If it is not on hand immediately, I can move on to
11 some other questions. That is the photograph from the high-rise showing
12 the car park in the mid-ground. The witnesses marked some buildings with
13 circles and numbers.
14 THE REGISTRAR: I have it now as P3752.
15 MR. IERACE: Yes, that's correct. Thank you.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]
17 Q. Sir, does it appear to you that this photograph was taken
18 recently, and certainly after the end of 1995?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. During the period from September 1992 until August of 1994, there
21 were no trees in that area. Is that correct? That is, the trees had few
22 branches and few leaves --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to
24 this question. The photograph shows a considerable number of trees, in
25 fact wood. So perhaps we could have a more accurate question.
1 Such-and-such a tree, because there were so many trees in this photograph,
2 that the question seems impossible to answer, as it is.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Some of the trees visible on the photograph, one
4 might wonder whether they could have grown that high in such a short
5 period. So would you please be more specific.
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. That is why I qualified the
7 question by saying "the trees had few branches and few leaves." But I will
8 rephrase the question.
9 Q. The trees that were there during the indictment period had been --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the
11 phrasing. The witness doesn't know what the indictment period is. He
12 doesn't know it. He can't know it. He has to be given dates so that he
13 can answer. It is a formal objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...please do so.
15 MR. IERACE:
16 Q. Between September 1992 and August 1994 the trees that were in the
17 area shown by the photograph had few branches and even in the warmer
18 months, had few leaves. Is that correct?
19 A. No.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to
21 object to this kind of question. This is about all the trees, and how can
22 the witness know this because all of the trees -- if all of the trees in
23 this photograph had few branches. It seems to me that this is a very
24 meaningless question, really.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with the Defence, Mr. Ierace, that it is
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 such a wide area --
2 MR. IERACE: I am happy to withdraw the question, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
4 MR. IERACE: In spite of the fact that it has been answered.
5 Q. Sir, in the area where you were operating between September 1992
6 and August 1994, were there civilians living?
7 A. Civilians lived there deep into Nedzarici, those that didn't have
8 to go anywhere.
9 Q. What do you mean by "deep into Nedzarici"?
10 A. Well, for instance, from the first line, from the front line,
11 about 100 metres, since Nedzarici was surrounded, then they had to live
12 there about in the centre of Nedzarici, in the middle, because they
13 couldn't live on the front line.
14 Q. So up to 100 metres from the front line on your side, there were
15 civilians living. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did they have -- I think you said yesterday there was not
18 electricity and, therefore, there was not water from time to time. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. I said that there was no electricity and, therefore, there was no
21 water. I also said that we had a well from which we drew water.
22 Q. Yes. What did the civilians use in order to keep warm in the
23 colder months?
24 A. During the cold months there was gas. So we used gas as fuel for
1 Q. Did they -- sorry. Go on.
2 A. I apologise. And also, we had some firewood.
3 Q. But there was no need for the civilians to chop down the trees to
4 produce wood for cooking and heating. Is that correct?
5 A. Of course there was need for that. There was need for that. When
6 there was no gas, then civilians had to use something to heat themselves
8 Q. Earlier you told us there was gas for heating. Do you now mean
9 that there was not always gas for heating?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Did that not mean that the trees on your territory were harvested
12 for wood for heating?
13 A. Well, you couldn't cut the trees down because they were -- above
14 us were high-rise buildings; none of us dared to go near and cut it off.
15 Q. Where there were trees obstructing your view of important parts of
16 the territory of the enemy, did you and your subordinates take steps to
17 eliminate them through gunfire?
18 A. We couldn't get to the trees to eliminate them -- to eliminate the
19 trees. Because a moment ago I said that above us, there were high-rise
21 Q. Which is why I asked you if gunfire was used to achieve that
23 A. We didn't open fire because of the trees. We only opened fire in
24 case of attack.
25 Q. Do you understand the question? I am asking you whether gunfire
1 was used to eliminate the cover provided by trees where important parts of
2 the enemy territory was protected from sight?
3 A. Well, how could you get rid of branches of a tree by gunfire? I
4 don't understand. I don't know how you can do that.
5 Q. I suggest to you that bursts of gunfire can eliminate branches
6 from trees. Do you disagree with that?
7 A. We didn't do that.
8 Q. Okay. You told us yesterday that before the -- at some stage
9 before the conflict, you had been a permanent member of the JNA. Between
10 what years were you in the JNA?
11 A. No, no. I didn't say that I was a permanent member.
12 Q. Were you --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can the
14 Prosecution please quote the line and page. Thank you.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am happy to do that, that is, find
16 the reference to the witness saying he had been in the JNA. But in the
17 meantime, I will move on.
18 Q. Were you in the JNA?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When?
21 A. When I went to do my service in 1975. And I did my service for 15
23 Q. All right. And is that where you gained some expertise with
24 anti-aircraft artillery?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. IERACE: I note my friend is on his feet, Mr. President.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
3 know, it is not my recollection that this witness said anything
4 whatsoever, but perhaps I am mistaken. That's why I ask for quotation --
5 for the reference. I don't know whether he mentioned anti-aircraft
6 artillery. I remember the shelling, but I don't remember the
7 anti-aircraft. So perhaps if I could have the reference, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: He did it on the first or the beginning of the second
9 day. It is --
10 MR. IERACE: If I could assist, Mr. President. Firstly, the
11 question did not say that he did, but as it happens he did, and the page
12 number is 13864 at line 21, the reference to the witness being in the JNA
13 is on the same page at line 18.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. IERACE:
16 Q. Now, in relation to anti-aircraft artillery --
17 A. I apologise. I remember well what I said. You asked me if I had
18 served in the army and also what my military specialty was. So I said
19 that was I light anti-aircraft artillery when I was serving -- when I was
20 doing my military service.
21 Q. Actually, it was the Defence who asked you that, not me.
22 Now, in relation to anti-aircraft artillery, is that a --
23 A. Yes. Yes, of course, okay.
24 Q. Is that a weapon which is intended to place a number of exploding
25 rounds over a large area in the path of aircraft?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is there a means of operating that weapon so that the barrel moves
3 as it fires in order to spray rounds over a large area?
4 A. I don't understand. What do you mean, "over a large area"?
5 Q. The objective is not to fire successive rounds along the same --
6 exactly the same path, but rather for each round to go in a slightly
7 different direction. Isn't that correct?
8 A. When I was in the army, I was taught how to use an anti-aircraft
9 cannon in order to hit an aircraft.
10 Q. Would you please answer the question.
11 A. Well, I told you.
12 Q. The --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you try to repeat the question in such a way
14 that the witness clearly understands what you mean.
15 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
16 Q. When you fire an anti-aircraft gun, bullets leave the barrel in
17 quick succession, that is, there is a burst of fire that comes out of the
18 barrel. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And the idea is not that each bullet goes exactly in the same
21 direction, but rather bullets go in slightly different directions in order
22 to create that wall of exploding rounds in front of the aircraft. Is that
24 A. With an anti-aircraft cannon, when you are firing it, of course
25 you press the pedal -- or I had forgotten how you are supposed to do
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that. Then the bullets are going from three different barrels and they
2 are going one after the other.
3 Q. All right. As you press the pedal, does that move the gun across
4 an arch?
5 A. Well that -- you can stop that, you can put a brake on.
6 Q. All right. When you do cause the gun to move as it fires, if that
7 is used against ground forces, it becomes an area weapon, doesn't it?
8 A. To tell you the truth, I learned in the army how to use it against
9 aircraft, but for area forces, for land forces, I...
10 Q. Would you please finish your answer. For land forces what?
11 A. And against land forces, I was not taught that. I only was
12 trained to use it against aircraft.
13 Q. Do you have any difficulty with the idea of using a weapon like
14 that against land forces? Is there any problem with that?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not a military strategist.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am objecting
18 for the following reason. The witness just said that he did not learn and
19 that he was not taught that this cannon can be used against land forces.
20 Now, the following thing is that Mr. Ierace is addressing the witness, did
21 you, do you have any difficulty and so on now, contrary to what the
22 witness just said. So he cannot ask a question like this because the
23 witness just said that he did not know that it was used as a land weapon.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was rather hypothetical. Then
25 you never used, Mr. DP6, anti-aircraft guns against -- on land, not
1 against aircraft? Am I correct in understanding?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We never used anti-aircraft cannons
3 for targets on land in the army. While in the war, I didn't even have an
4 opportunity to see an anti-aircraft cannon.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Did you give it ever some thought on what the effect
6 would be of using such a weapon, even if you did not do it yourself, in
7 land warfare?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't interested in that.
11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. You also told us yesterday that you and your force obtained some
13 weapons from the JNA barracks in Nedzarici, that you would go there in
14 groups of 10 or 15. Is that correct? Do you remember saying that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said that there was someone in the barracks. Would that
17 person give you the guns?
18 A. Yes. There were some people there; I didn't even know them. And
19 then when 10 people arrived to take the weapons, they would return to the
20 line, and then the next group would come.
21 Q. And I take it that with the guns --
22 A. It was an elderly man. I don't know what his name was.
23 Q. With the guns, you also received presumably ammunition?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you told us -- how many groups were there that went? How many
1 groups of 10 or 15 people?
2 A. Seven or eight. I do say six, seven groups, as far as the front
3 line was at which I was concerned.
4 Q. And those troops left with M-48 rifles, semi-automatic, automatic
5 rifles, and semi-automatic machine-guns. Is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. You told us that in relation to uniforms, that usually a number of
8 you had JNA uniforms, some were civilian clothes, but then camouflage
9 uniforms arrived. When did they arrive?
10 A. I wouldn't know exactly. Sometime in the autumn at about this
11 time of year. I can't remember exactly.
12 Q. So about October of 1992. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, thereabouts. I am not quite sure.
14 Q. Were they winter uniforms?
15 A. Yes. They were olive/green/grey two-piece uniforms, the jacket
16 and the trousers.
17 Q. Where were they made?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Do you know where they came from?
20 A. In the barracks, I suppose.
21 Q. These were new uniforms weren't they?
22 A. Well, they were both secondhand because in the former system, the
23 troops had the uniforms, and when the troops pulled out, the uniforms
24 stayed behind.
25 Q. All right. So were they JNA uniforms?
1 A. They were, yes.
2 Q. So from somewhere you and your troops all received winter uniforms
3 ex-JNA, in October of 1992. Is that correct?
4 A. Well, more or less.
5 Q. Now, once the ammunition that you received from he JNA barracks
6 ran out, I take it you were resupplied, were you?
7 A. We were supplied with ammunition.
8 Q. At that stage, in October of 1992, did you regard yourself as a
9 member of the Sarajevo Romanija Corp?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. Had you met General Galic by then?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Had you heard of General Galic?
14 A. No. I didn't hear about General Galic for a very long time. I
15 don't even know when was it that I heard of him. Perhaps when I returned
16 from this spa in Arandjelovac after my wounding.
17 Q. In October 1993, is that when you mean?
18 A. Well, after I was wounded, I don't know when it was that they
19 heard, but it was then that I heard about General Galic, then -- I mean,
20 when I returned from the spa.
21 Q. Did you ever meet General Galic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You never -- you have never met General Galic. Is that correct?
24 A. Never.
25 Q. Have you ever seen General Galic before you appeared in this
1 courtroom, in the flesh?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did General Mladic ever, between September 1992 and August 1994,
4 go to Nedzarici? In other words, did you ever see him there between those
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you receive --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object because the question
10 contained two elements. On one hand, whether General Mladic had visited
11 or not Nedzarici; and secondly, whether the witness saw him. And now I do
12 not know whether it is of any use to talk about General Mladic, but I
13 object to the form of question which is a two-fold question and therefore
14 the witness is unable to answer it directly
15 JUDGE ORIE: The question was specified after first -- the
16 question being whether General Mladic ever went to Nedzarici. It was then
17 specified whether the witness saw him in Nedzarici. Would you answer the
18 question: Did you ever see in the time period just mentioned,
19 General Mladic in Nedzarici?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Now, just in relation to ammunition for the small arms, and by
23 that I mean up to and including machine-guns, did that ammunition come in
25 A. It came -- some of it came in boxes, some of it came looser. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 don't know. All I know is that it came.
2 Q. Sir, what do you mean you don't know, given that you were the
3 company commander, how the ammunition arrived? Did it come just in boxes
4 or in some other form?
5 A. The ammunition came both in boxes and loose, that is, in soft
6 board boxes.
7 Q. Either way, it came in boxes, didn't it?
8 A. There were crates, those army crates, and there were also some
10 Q. All right. Now, where was, in what places was that ammunition
11 manufactured according to the markings on the boxes?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't really know.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object. I object. I do not
14 see that in the previous line of questioning the fact emanated that the
15 crates were marked. I can well imagine a carton box which said Coca-Cola
16 or something.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you perhaps -- if you would like to
18 ask the witness, first ask about the facts.
19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
20 Q. Boxes of ammunition, I suggest to you, would have had markings on
21 them as to their type and place of manufacture, at least the country of
22 manufacture. Is that correct?
23 A. I do not know what it said on the crates and boxes. All I know is
24 that we got the ammunition.
25 Q. You at least had to look at the boxes to make sure they were the
1 appropriate gauge of ammunition, didn't you?
2 A. Well, I opened the box and I see what the calibre is.
3 Q. I see. In relation to small arms, again, rifles, pistols,
4 machine-guns, did you receive any fresh equipment up until August 1994?
5 A. No.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown again the
7 map that he marked yesterday in cross-examination. I think that --
8 THE REGISTRAR: D1760.
9 MR. IERACE: Yes. Perhaps that could be placed on the ELMO.
10 Q. Yesterday you marked the brigade and battalion headquarters, and
11 you indicated - and correct me if I am wrong - that they were the
12 positions from the September 1992 throughout the period up until August of
13 1994. Is that the position? Is that correct?
14 A. Could you repeat the question.
15 Q. The position you indicated for the battalion headquarters, I think
16 you said that the headquarters stayed there from September 1992 until
17 August of 1994. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did the battalion headquarters remain in that same -- remain in
20 its position indicated on the map throughout the same period?
21 A. The battalion command, I have said it, I know it was in Nedzarici
22 until the 20th of February, 1993, and then I was wounded. When I was
23 wounded, the battalion commander moved to Kasindolska Street -- but I
24 don't know the date, because I was not there -- and stayed in Kasindolska
25 until the end of the war.
1 Q. Does that street appear on the map, and if so, could you point to
2 it with the pointer.
3 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the ELMO can pan back.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is. Kasindolska. Like
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. Now, you told us that you were a company commander up until
8 February of 1993.
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Was your command headquarters in the same position throughout the
11 period that you were a company commander?
12 A. Yes, on Lukavicka Cesta.
13 Q. First, with the pointer, would you indicate the position of the
14 company headquarters.
15 A. The company headquarters was somewhere -- somewhere here, in the
16 middle between the first and the last position.
17 Q. What type of building was it?
18 A. It was a house with some upper floors.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is necessary
22 to show for the transcript that the witness pointed at a line which he
23 himself drew as a continuous line and the middle of this line, because
24 otherwise we won't know.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it will be marked in due course.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Was that house anywhere near the -- I withdraw that.
4 How far was the house from the nearest building in the complex of
5 the Institute for Blind Children, approximately?
6 A. For blind children, it was some 80 maybe 100 metres from the
7 Institute for the Blind to the company headquarters.
8 Q. Would you please take a --
9 A. 150.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. From here to here. That's about 80 to 150 -- well, I am not
12 sure. About 100 metres.
13 Q. Would you now please take a black pen and with the black pen place
14 a cross to indicate the position of the company headquarters.
15 JUDGE ORIE: What about a blue pen, Mr. Ierace?
16 MR. IERACE: Yes, I forgot, Mr. President. A blue pen.
17 JUDGE ORIE: A blue pen, please.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. To the left of the cross, please place the letter "C."
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And then underneath the cross, but avoiding writing over the black
22 indicated front line, please write the initials "CHY."
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the map could stay there for the moment.
1 Well -- no, perhaps the map could be withdrawn.
2 Q. In any military -- in any armed combat, high ground is
3 particularly valued. Would you agree with that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Yesterday you told us about how the ABiH took advantage of the
6 high structures on their side of the confrontation line --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- and you also said in relation to your side that the
9 Theological Institute was a high building, not as high, but a high
10 building. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, four floors.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do apologise. Perhaps the usher
13 could return the map.
14 Q. With the pointer -- withdraw that.
15 Yesterday you marked the front line and in particular, as I
16 understand it, the portion of the front line which was the responsibility
17 of your company. Is that correct?
18 A. It is.
19 Q. With the pointer, could you slowly outline the entire territory
20 which was the responsibility for your company.
21 A. I showed it to you yesterday, and I drew it.
22 Q. No, you showed us the front line. But did that territory -- how
23 far back from the front line was the territory that was occupied in
24 particular by your company?
25 A. My company was right next to the Lukavicka Cesta. Here, in these
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 houses, as I marked them.
2 Q. All right. Well, if you had walked say 300 metres back from the
3 front line, that is, towards the south-west, would there have been members
4 of your company there as well or were they confined to the front line and
5 the immediately adjacent area to the front line?
6 A. The soldiers were always on the front line.
7 Q. In the area of Nedzarici occupied by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,
8 in terms of the highest buildings, there was the Theological Institute.
9 Is that correct?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. And
11 the foundation for it is purely semantic. We have not accepted that term
12 "aggressor" and, therefore, I do not think that we can accept the term
13 "occupied" which does not -- means occupation as in some historical
14 example that we already heard.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I take it that under the control,
16 would there as well this is also considered to be sensitive?
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. Apart from the Theological Institute, what were the other tall
21 buildings in that area?
22 A. Come on, we didn't have any tall buildings apart from the
23 Theological Faculty on the front line, and we had old people's home and
24 the Centre for the Blind. Those were the tallest buildings in Nedzarici,
25 I mean, because it was all private houses there.
1 Q. Now, were all of those private houses occupied by civilians
2 between September 1992 and August 1994, to the best of your knowledge?
3 A. No. No. Not all of them.
4 Q. In your company --
5 A. On the front line -- on the front line there were no civilians. I
6 said it last time a moment ago that some were about 100 metres in the
7 depth of Nedzarici territory, there were still some civilians who had
8 nowhere to go.
9 Q. By the end of 1992, how many troops were there in your company?
10 A. Until the end of 1992, I don't know the exact number. I think we
11 were -- when I was wounded, that was 1993, we were some 118 soldiers.
12 Q. All right. Now, in terms of equipment that your company had, how
13 many mortars did you have by February 1993?
14 A. One. The 60 one, 60 millimetres.
15 Q. How many snipers?
16 A. We had no snipers.
17 Q. How many snipers were operating on your part of the front line?
18 A. I am not aware of any.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object. The witness has
20 just said that there were no snipers, and then the next question asks him
21 again how many of them were there at the front line. The witness knows
22 only that front lines; he said there were no snipers. So it is an
23 admissible to ask him a question like that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...the question was
25 about the company; the second was on that part of the front line in which
1 the witness testified that only part of that front line was within his
2 company. But the question has been answered.
3 So, Mr. Ierace, I think there is no need to continue. The witness
4 has testified that there were no snipers in his company, and that -- yes.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I certainly didn't eliminate the
6 distinct possibility that snipers could have been brought in from other
7 companies to operate on his portion of the front line, and that was what I
8 had in mind with that question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: I am sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. IERACE: Yes.
13 Q. How many snipers were there in the Ilidza Brigade?
14 A. I don't know. I really don't. And I don't know if there were any
15 at all, because I was at this line here, and there were none, I am sure of
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry.
18 But once again, these type of questions seems to me of a questionable
19 form. The first question -- and I am talking now about the Ilidza
20 Brigade, The first question should be whether the witness was aware of any
21 snipers, and only then to ask him how many of them. And the question
22 obviously is -- takes for granted that there were any snipers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...were these leading
24 elements in the questioning are allowed. On the other hand, Mr. Ierace I
25 do not always know -- I do not know whether it -- let me express myself in
1 a different way.
2 Sometimes leading the witness too much could result in losing a
3 lot of information on the basis of his knowledge. So, although leading
4 the witness is certainly not prohibited, I think in a system like ours, it
5 might sometimes be of more assistance to give a better view on the basis
6 of the knowledge of the witness rather than getting a certain answer from
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Sir, you have told us that you had one mortar and that it was a
11 62 millimetre. What other equipment did you have in your company, apart
12 from --
13 A. 60 millimetres.
14 Q. What other equipment did you have in your company, apart from
15 small arms?
16 A. None. Infantry weapons and the 60.
17 Q. When you returned in October 1993, what were your duties from then
18 until August of 1994?
19 A. When I returned to the battalion after the severe wounding that I
20 had sustained, I started working in the rear, food and the like.
21 Q. At any stage between October 1993 and August 1994, did you go to
22 the front line that you marked on the map?
23 A. Not really. Now and then.
24 Q. How --
25 A. Because everybody had his duties, his assignments.
1 Q. What were the duties that you had that required you to go to the
2 front line in that period, that part of the front line?
3 A. Well, to go to that part of the front line, mostly was when food
4 was being distributed, tins and the like. And I also went because I was
5 the first company commander, and I wanted to see my comrades at arms.
6 Q. Who took over control of the company after you in February 1993?
7 A. Jovo Sehovac.
8 Q. Did he stay there until at least August 1994?
9 A. Jovo you mean, yes, he did.
10 Q. He remained in control of the company, in charge of the company,
11 until that time, at least?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. The food that you distributed was prepared where?
14 A. It was prepared in a kitchen at Ilidza, and then it was taken to
15 two certain locations where people came to fetch it and then to get to the
16 front line going -- using trenches and moving between houses and behind
17 the screens.
18 Q. Now, coming back to the operations of your company between -- up
19 until February of 1993, did you come under fire from snipers in the
20 high-rise buildings opposite to you?
21 A. Well, there was sniper fire and all kinds of fire, but I know that
22 we were exposed because we were below these buildings. So we were exposed
23 to the fire. But there was sniper fire, there was infantry fire.
24 Q. So the answer is yes, you did come under sniper fire from those
25 buildings. Is that correct?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did your side, that is, did your armed forces return sniper
3 fire with sniper fire, to your knowledge?
4 A. I just told you a moment ago, we had no snipers at all. And we
5 could not return sniper fire since we didn't have them.
6 Q. I am not asking about your company, sir. I am asking whether, to
7 your knowledge, sniper fire was returned --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a
9 belated objection, but I have to come back to the question: Did your side
10 and so on return sniper fire with sniper fire? The witness just said a
11 moment ago that they had no snipers. Now, putting these words in his
12 mouth becomes a very nasty habit of the Prosecution. Now, this is not
13 according to the Rules, and this is not right.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, page 23, line 22, says "I don't know. I
15 really don't know. I don't know if there were any at all because I was at
16 this line here and there were none. I am sure of that." That seems to be
17 an answer to your last question or do I --
18 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I think there is a difference.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the witness to take his headphones off.
20 Could you explain the difference to us.
21 MR. IERACE: This question -- this question canvases whether this
22 witness, company commander of that part of the front line directly
23 opposite those high-rise buildings was aware of sniper fire being returned
24 with sniper fire from the forces of the SRK in that area. It does not
25 re-activate the issue of whether there was snipers in his particular
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, but, I think you asked more you asked more than
3 just snipers in his particular company. You asked about snipers in the
4 Ilidza Brigade, not just in his company.
5 MR. IERACE: Earlier I did.
6 JUDGE ORIE: "I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know if
7 there was any at all." So I understand this to be within the brigade and
8 he was at the line there. Let me ask one question to the witness.
9 Could the witness please put the headphones again.
10 Mr. DP6, one of the earlier questions was about snipers in the --
11 or sniper activity in the Ilidza Brigade; you said you didn't know about
12 it. Would you know about snipers in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps? So not
13 necessarily part of the brigade you were in with your company.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I really don't know about the
15 Sarajevo Romanija Corps having any snipers. If I don't know about the
16 Ilidza Brigade, how could I know about the SRK?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I could speak first.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace asked first.
23 Please, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. Present, I do wish to proceed this line of
25 questioning. If you --
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to explain, then we rather ask the
2 witness to put his earphones off again.
3 MR. IERACE: Or perhaps leave the courtroom.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked him yesterday whether he understood any
5 English or French, and since these are the only languages used, unless you
6 say there is another way of perceiving the --
7 MR. IERACE: I would prefer for my part, Mr. President --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please. May I ask you to
9 leave the courtroom just for one second.
10 [The witness steps down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: Thank you Mr. President. This -- the proceedings of
13 this morning, the objections by my learned colleague, raise a fundamental
14 issue in relation to the nature of cross-examination, in particular,
15 whether a cross-examiner is bound by the first answer of a witness on a
16 relevant topic. In my respectful submission, the fact that the witness
17 said he knows nothing about it, does not in itself mean that a
18 cross-examiner should not ask further questions, if the cross-examiner --
19 if there is an issue between that answer and the case of the
20 cross-examiner. Put simply, the Prosecution seeks to continue the line of
21 questioning amongst other reasons, in order to probe the credibility of
22 the witness on this issue.
23 In relation to that, Mr. President, the situation is that he was
25 [redacted] immediately adjacent to the Institute for Blind Children.
1 I hasten to add that that period of command ended in February
2 1993, and the three scheduled sniping incidents which occurred in a
3 relatively short compass of that institute took place between March and
4 June 1994 and, therefore, there is of course the possibility that snipers
5 were operating from the institute in 1994, but not up until February
6 1993. Even so -- in my respectful submission, it is appropriate for the
7 Prosecution to be permitted to pursue this line of questioning. It defies
8 common sense to accept at least on the strength of one answer, or even a
9 few answers, this witness's contention that he was not aware whether the
10 SRK used snipers during this armed conflict, let alone, that there weren't
11 snipers in his brigade.
12 We know from the evidence of Richard Philipps, for instance, that
13 there was a sniper squad within the Ilijas Infantry Brigade, and that was
14 not challenged by the Defence, and that is the reason I say we know. It
15 is not an issue. We know, similarly, that there were snipers in the SRK
16 beyond that brigade using specialist rifles, and again we know that
17 because it was never challenged.
18 Mr. President, this is an important site of sniping and here we
19 have [redacted] up
20 until February 1993. With the caveat, with the proviso, that it is not
21 the most relevant periods of time, even so, in my respectful submission,
22 it would be appropriate to pursue it.
23 MR PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, in French
24 there is a very beautiful expression meaning "I am speechless," really.
25 However, I will find some words to explain this.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I am a bit surprised that speechless, you surprise
2 the Chamber.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am hoping to continue to
4 surprise you, Mr. President, because if the Defence had tried this
5 brilliant style, I have to admit, to immediately question one of your
6 decisions, immediately we would have been told "this is not admitted"
7 either in one Chamber or else where.
8 What is happening here? We have a witness who just told us -- I
9 don't know, I haven't seen it, I don't know anything about it, as far as I
10 know, there weren't any. Now, why? At all costs we want to find out that
11 he should be placed, put in the place that he has to be interrogated
12 inquisition style when he is continuing to answer "I don't know." Here is
13 the testimony of the witness. Do you want him to tell you the opposite?
14 To contradict himself, to perjure himself, to tell you lies? What do you
15 want? What do you want him to say? I think the Prosecution needs to
16 know, just like you, Mr. President, reminded us that this is a mixed
17 system whereby the interpretation of proof will be done by you, not by us,
18 but has to be respected what the witness said.
19 Now, not only that I am speechless, I don't know what to say, when
20 we were told that we never contested this, I have to remind you that
21 expert Philipps was that someone that we considered as being an OTP staff
22 member, that we did not think that his capacity as a witness was a good
23 one. Of course, we contest the entire of his testimony. We cannot say
24 that we admit something that we contest. That is not in the Rules.
25 Therefore, the testimony of the witness is being very clear.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Now, having said on three separate occasions that he didn't know
2 anything about it, it is completely abnormal that he continues to be asked
3 leading, contentious questions: Did you return sniper fire with sniper
4 fire when you were attacked in this way? I believe it is not
5 admissible. If it is admissible, then the Defence rights are being
6 offended. Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the Chamber has confirmed that there are
9 two issues. One is receiving information from the witness; the second one
10 is testing reliability and credibility of the witness. As far as
11 receiving information from the witness, he has testified that he doesn't
12 know anything about it. I think you asked questions several times on this
13 issue, and the Chamber wonders what other questions could shed a further
14 light on the issue you are pursuing, that is, credibility, reliability.
15 If you could demonstrate that by your next question, but we have to limit
16 that. I mean, even in the stage of credibility, reliability, we have to
17 stop somewhere and we cannot ask the witness to deny seven, eight, nine,
18 ten times.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it assists, I don't propose to do
20 that. That would be a complete waste of time. That is not the way to
21 conduct cross-examination.
22 JUDGE ORIE: What kind of questions would you then have in mind?
23 MR. IERACE: Well, yesterday, the witness said that it wasn't
24 possible to say Ante Babica Street from the street of the blind.
25 Hopefully, I will demonstrate to him you that that evidence is incorrect.
1 An area that I propose to further explore is what was upstairs in the
2 school for the blind. The witness told us yesterday one floor; in fact,
3 it is ground plus two.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So we do not concentrate any more on sniper. One of
5 the problems the Chamber had with your line of questioning as well is that
6 the term "sniper" was used again where there seems, at least there seems
7 to be some disagreement on what exactly a sniper is.
8 MR. IERACE: And indeed my next few questions will break away from
9 that, in relation to that term.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I just
13 found my words again. I really don't see the connection between whether
14 we have a view on such a street from such an institute with the question
15 that raised my objection, "Did you return sniper fire with sniper fire?"
16 There is no connection whatsoever. I don't think the Prosecution has
17 understood the purpose of the cross-examination in the two systems.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The line just indicated by the Prosecution is an
19 admissible line. So, Mr. Ierace, we know exactly to what questions the
20 witness has answered "no," and there is no need to have that repeated
21 several times. But I cannot imagine that there are issues like the ones
22 you mentioned you would like to raise. Yes.
23 MR. IERACE: To be perfectly clear on this, Mr. President, I also
24 propose to ask him, well, [redacted]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher -- unless there is anything else you
4 would like to say.
5 MR. IERACE: Just a minor correction. I said earlier that the
6 relevant scheduled incidents were in the first half of 1994. Incident 13
7 was on the 4th October, 1993, but that that doesn't change the argument I
8 advance. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into
10 the courtroom, please. Yes, thank you.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We will continue, Mr. DP6.
13 Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Sir, when you had a sniper or snipers operating from those
16 high-rise buildings opposite your part of the front line, what did you do
17 in order to neutralise them?
18 A. We would open fire towards these parts approximately from where
19 the fire came from.
20 Q. And would that be with semi-automatic rifles, as well as automatic
21 rifles, as well as machine-guns?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Surely there were occasions when what you really needed was
24 someone who had particular skill at using a rifle in order to neutralise a
25 sniper on the other side. Did that situation not arise --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. Mr. President,
2 the question is now being asked --
3 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the witness could take his headphones off --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me? If you speak all at the same time, I
5 cannot hear you.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is an objection.
7 MR. IERACE: And I ask he remove his headphones
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I
10 would like to apologise for the Prosecution, because I reacted very
11 rapidly, precisely so that the witness is protected. But currently what
12 is happening here is that a question is again being asked about nothing
13 else but the existence of snipers. But that are now being defined by a
14 person who got has special qualities. Now, this is going around the pot
16 JUDGE ORIE: This is an admissible question, so the objection is
17 denied. It is also reflects the line of questioning indicated by the
18 Prosecution in the absence of the witness.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE:
21 Q. Sir, you have told us that in order to neutralise snipers in those
22 high-rise buildings, you would return fire. Were there not times -- were
23 there not situations which called for one of your subordinates to --
24 excuse me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The accused would like to confer with counsel.
1 [Defence counsel and accused confers]
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would it assist if we took the break a
3 little earlier.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the observation
5 that General Galic formulated --
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...to take his
7 headphones off again. Would you take them off. Thank you.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems that
9 the observation that I was given by General Galic is the following: It
10 seems that this witness himself would never have used the term "sniper,"
11 and I don't have the recollection. I am just --
12 MR. IERACE: I object.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I just finish, please,
14 before objecting.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it is simply not appropriate for the
16 Defence to make submissions in these terms. If my learned colleague has
17 an objection to the question, then he should make it, but not relate what
18 has just been told by his client in a general way about the general issue.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to finish my
21 sentence, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...confer with your
23 client, and you may submit whatever you want to this Chamber as a Defence,
24 but it is the counsel that represent the accused. And so therefore,
25 references to what is the source and what is the basis of your objection
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 should not link -- should not create an indirect way of addressing the
2 Chamber. But, therefore, I think that your --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But could we ask the
4 Prosecution to tell us the reference, precise reference, page and line,
5 that the witness said that there was sniper fire that was coming from a
6 high-rise flats, high-rise buildings.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MR. IERACE: I can give that reference Mr. President, page 33,
10 line 16 question asked by me: "When you had a sniper, were snipers
11 operating from those high-rise buildings opposite of that part of your
12 front line, what did you do in order to neutralise them." Answer: "We
13 would open fire towards these parts approximately from where the fire came
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Present, I noticed that you conferred with your
16 client, and I also note that you wanted to object against something. If
17 you would please keep the two strictly apart. Make your objection.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, with pleasure. What I
19 think I can tell, I believe this is an interpretation problem because it
20 seems that the same time General Galic and Ms. Pilipovic heard the witness
21 say that he did not know, as far as he was concerned, whether it was one
22 or the other. And it seems this cannot be found in the transcript,
23 although both the General and Ms. Pilipovic can confirm this while I was
24 listening to another channel.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please put his headphones on again.
1 Did we understand your well, Mr. DP6, that sniper fire came from
2 high-rise buildings at the other side of the confrontation line, or is
3 this a wrong understanding of what you said?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the other side, fire was open,
5 both sniper and infantry fire.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is an answer to my question.
7 Please proceed -- no. We will -- no. I would like to you to know
8 even for the last two minutes. Please proceed.
9 MR. IERACE: Thank you. I will.
10 Q. All right. Now, when you received sniper fire from those
11 high-rise buildings, [redacted],
12 [redacted]-- I withdraw that --
13 someone with the skill of a marksman to take them out, to eliminate them?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Why don't we first -- yes, make your objection,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin but let me be quite clear. Questions are put to a
17 witness in order to get an answer. Questions are not put to a witness in
18 order to give an opportunity on each question to object. Make your
19 objection and think it over what I just said during the next break.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But Mr. --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do it. Yes, I
23 will do it. The formulation of the objection is because it is purely
24 speculative because we are being told --
25 MR. IERACE: Headphones for the witness, please, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please take off your headphones.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is purely speculative.
3 The witness is being asked whether if he wished to have someone, why is he
4 not asked did call someone, then it would be a lot clearer. Is it: Would
5 you have wished to have had someone? This is purely speculative. This is
6 talking about a desire he may have had.
7 Now, the Defence is always asked to be precise, now we are asking
8 the other side to be accurate. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I did understand the question of -- in such a
10 way whether the witness ever had felt the need to find someone, and that
11 is a perfectly acceptable interpretation of this question. But I will put
12 it to the witness in these terms, and that will be the last question
13 before the break.
14 Mr. DP6 could you -- when you received sniper fire from the other
15 side of the line, have you ever felt the need to find someone with special
16 skills to respond to that fire or to eliminate the sniper?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you: Anyone would
18 have wanted to eliminate the sniper, but what can I tell you? I couldn't
19 have wished because when the fire started, I wouldn't know whether this
20 was sniper fire or this was some other infantry fire, fire from infantry
21 weapons. You just wish that you could eliminate fire.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then again my question, whether sniper or
23 infantry fire, did you ever try to find someone or to eliminate those who
24 were at the source of the fire?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when the fire was opened,
1 first of all, the attempt would be to eliminate fire from the front line.
2 If that is not possible, we would call the battalion command and then we
3 would say on this part this fire being opened. And we would ask for
4 assistance so that the fire would be then eliminated in any way.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you ask for that assistance, what then happens?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then we would be sent either
7 soldiers as reinforcement to come and deal with it, or they would start to
8 make sure that a shell would fall or something like that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn until 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m
11 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 30 seconds only
13 to tell you that Mr. Aleksandar Momirov, who is our case manager, will
14 also be present at the hearing. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, then please proceed.
16 Welcome into the courtroom, Mr. Momirov. May I first ask you to
17 spell your name so that there can be no confusion.
18 MR. MOMIROV: M-o-m-i-r-o-v.
19 Yes, thank you. Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
20 MR. IERACE:
21 Q. Sir, you told us before the break that when you wanted to
22 eliminate fire from the front line, whether it was sniper fire or some
23 other form of fire, you would call the battalion command and ask for
24 assistance. Firstly, when you called the battalion command, would you use
25 a field telephone?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you explained that the assistants would either be soldiers as
3 reinforcement or they would start to make sure that a shell would fall or
4 something like that. Do you mean that sometimes the assistance was
5 artillery fire against the source of fire?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Whereabouts were the artillery units that would operate opposite
8 your part of the front line up until February 1993?
9 A. Mortars were down next to the Theological Faculty.
10 Q. Were there also mortars at the old JNA barracks at that period of
12 A. No.
13 Q. Only at the Theological Faculty as far as the area of Nedzarici.
14 Is that correct?
15 A. It is.
16 Q. What size were those mortars or what sizes?
17 A. The 60, the 82, and the 120.
18 Q. All right. And what --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Merely one part of the
21 witness's answer has not been interpreted into French. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you look at the screen, in English it is
23 complete. Yes.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: All right.
1 Q. You have told us that the mortars were at the Theological
2 Faculty. Did you sometimes receive the assistance of artillery shells
3 rather than mortars?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you sometimes receive the assistance of tanks coming into
6 Nedzarici to assist you?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am really sorry, but I would
10 like to be very precise. You are talking about the tank and I think that
11 in French it -- the French interpretation was "guns." Now, could we
12 please be very precise here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I am not an expert but as far as I understand tanks
14 are usually translated by chars. Could this be confirmed by the French --
15 no, of course, I should -- yes. Yes. Thank you. Please proceed,
16 Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wonder if it would assist if we can
18 have the same rules of translation issues as applied during the
19 Prosecution case, that a note be made of them so as to minimise the amount
20 of interruptions of cross-examination.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since you noticed the
22 difference, you have the original language and you have the French. So
23 would you use the small yellow papers if there is any need that the
24 translation be adjusted, or at least if you have any submissions to be
25 made in respect of translation, at least if no confusion could arise.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the witness be shown
3 Exhibit P3279T.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It is a series of six photographs.
5 MR. IERACE: ERN ending in three small "a."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to -- it is a series of six. Do you
7 have one -- yes, you have the ERN number mentioned of the photograph you
8 wish on the ELMO. Yes.
9 MR. IERACE:
10 Q. Sir, in the photograph before you, do you see the Theological
11 Institute otherwise known sometimes as the School of Theology?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Please point to it with the pointer.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates a white building of which at least
16 three floors can be seen about two-thirds up the photograph from the
17 bottom. Thank you. Might that be returned.
18 Q. Now, when you contacted the battalion headquarters, I take it that
19 is the headquarters that you placed on the map, that you indicated on the
20 map yesterday. Is that correct?
21 A. It is.
22 Q. I take it there were a number of battalions in the Ilijas
23 Brigade. What was the name of that battalion? Was it the 1st Battalion,
24 the 2nd Battalion, or what?
25 A. The 1st Battalion.
1 Q. Now, yesterday you told us the various battalion commanders. Who
2 was the battalion commander as of the 13th of July, 1994?
3 A. When I returned, then it was Svetozar Guzina, after I returned
4 from the spa. And then onward it was Svetozar Guzina.
5 Q. Did you know him personally?
6 A. I met him when I returned from the spa.
7 Q. Was that the first time you had met him?
8 A. That was the first time.
9 Q. Do you know whether he had previously been in the JNA?
10 A. No, he wasn't -- I mean, he did his military service as everybody
11 else, but he wasn't an active JNA member.
12 Q. Do you know if he is still alive?
13 A. He is.
14 Q. Do you know where he lives? I am not asking you for the address,
15 but simply if you know where he lives. Yes or no.
16 A. I don't.
17 Q. If you had to locate him, do you know people who may know?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object. And I do not see
21 the relevance. It looks to me a little bit like a fishing expedition.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, should the headphones be taken off?
23 MR. IERACE: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please take your headphones off, yes, thank
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the relevance is an exhibit in the
2 Prosecution case that was tendered through [redacted].
10 JUDGE ORIE: I will make that redaction. At the same time, the
11 knowledge of the witness on the whereabouts was the relevance for that?
12 MR. IERACE: The relevance for that is to establish whether the
13 Defence wished to do it so that they could contact him if they wish to
14 refute that if you wish to do so. It is P2759, confidential exhibit.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
16 does not intend to communicate with that person, rest assured.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would that take away the --
18 MR. IERACE: Yes, it would.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please proceed. But this was about the
20 address. So the objection is of, at least, the whereabouts and whether
21 the witness knows anything about that. But of course the -- well, not of
22 course, but the Prosecution has demonstrated sufficiently the relevance of
23 the other part of the question, so please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Now, you told us that sometimes the battalion would provide you
1 with reinforcements. What skills did those reinforcements have when you
2 were concerned about -- when you wanted to eliminate sniper and other fire
3 from the other side?
4 A. We had no training and the skill amounted to what we learned in
5 the war, and reinforcements were sent over from other front lines, that is
6 from other companies -- I mean, human reinforcements, troop
8 Q. The mortar placements at the Theological Institute, did you ever
9 see them?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. When was the first time approximately that you saw them, and the
12 last time that you saw them, approximately?
13 A. Approximately the first time I saw them, sometime in June, and the
14 last time - I don't remember - could have been sometime before I was
15 wounded. I really -- I really don't remember when the last time was.
16 Q. Could you tell us whether the last time you saw them was sometime
17 after October 1993?
18 A. They were down there where they had always been.
19 Q. And were they in exactly the same positions whenever you saw them?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, sir the front line around Nedzarici was such that it could be
22 described perhaps as a spur. In other words, Nedzarici was surrounded on
23 three sides by positions of the ABiH. Would you regard that as an
24 accurate description?
25 A. Yes. We could only get out -- we had only one exit to one side,
1 and that was via Kasindolska Street.
2 Q. To the south of Nedzarici was a similar protrusion for the enemy,
3 that is, the area of Dobrinja. Is that correct? In other words, there
4 were -- Dobrinja was an area of ABiH territory which was surrounded on
5 three sides by the SRK, would you agree?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object. I object,
7 Mr. President. I do not know -- perhaps the witness could remove his
9 I object to the question because it is imprecise. We know that
10 there is an exact number for the Dobrinja and we know about it. The
11 certain areas were surrounded by the so-called army of Sarajevo, but other
12 parts of Sarajevo -- of Dobrinja were controlled by different troops.
13 Now, the question is not precise. It introduces confusion and, therefore,
14 in compliance with the Rules, the Prosecution should make the question
15 precise, should word it precisely.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, if you are talking about Dobrinja,
17 the evidence is until now that Dobrinja was split, that parts of it were
18 under the control. So if -- may I take it - and perhaps you could be more
19 precise - that you are speaking about certain parts of Dobrinja, and I
20 would have another question myself. You are placing Dobrinja south of
21 Nedzarici which is in my maps not evident. I would say it was rather east
22 or perhaps -- or am I wrong? What I find on my maps just south of the
23 area known to me as Nedzarici is what is what we call the Airport
24 Settlement --
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, I understand, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And the parts you are referring to are rather to the
2 east or to the --
3 MR. IERACE: South-east.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
5 MR. IERACE:
6 Q. Sir, there were areas of Dobrinja
7 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the witness does not have the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please -- yes. You know
9 already perfectly well how to do it, Mr. DP6. Thank you for your
10 cooperation. Please proceed.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Sir, a large part of the settlement of Dobrinja controlled by the
13 ABiH. Is that correct?
14 A. It is.
15 Q. And the part that was controlled by the ABiH was surrounded on
16 three sides by - if not almost on four sides - forces of the SRK. Is that
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
19 JUDGE ORIE: No. Before I give you an opportunity to object, I
20 hear from my place with my earphones on that you communicate in your own
21 language which is understandable for the witness. That is not allowed in
22 this courtroom. If you want to confer, no problem. One of the reasons
23 might be that if you have got your headphones on, that you have more
24 difficulties in hearing each other, therefore, you use a louder voice.
25 But it is not admissible to speak -- especially not if even with my
1 limited knowledge of the B/C/S language, I could hear what your view on
2 that question would be, and it is up to the witness to tell us.
3 If there is any objection, then may I ask you to take off your
4 earphones again.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I withdraw the question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. I note the frequently --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I merely would like to bring
8 you my apologies. Yes, perhaps, we are too loud but we shall pay
9 attention not to do that again.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Well, does that mean that my learned colleague does
12 not object to the question?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought that
15 Mr. Ierace was about to rephrase his question --
16 MR. IERACE: I will withdraw it.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- or was it a
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. The settlement of Dobrinja --
21 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you.
23 Q. Sir, the settlement of Dobrinja was, I think you have agreed
24 already, in part controlled by the ABiH, as far as the armed conflict was
25 concerned. Is that correct?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. Are you familiar with Ante Babica Street?
3 A. Ante Babica, it is in Mojmilo, yes.
4 Q. And that was one of the -- indeed, that was the main road which
5 connected the ABiH controlled part of Dobrinja to the parts of the city
6 that were controlled by the ABiH. Is that correct?
7 A. Would you repeat it.
8 Q. Yes. Essentially, that street was the main connection road
9 between Dobrinja and the city in terms of the ABiH territories. Do you
10 agree with that?
11 A. All I know is that it was towards Mojmilo where the Ante Babica
12 Street extended out, I don't know. I know that it went to Mojmilo -- not
13 Mojmilo, but Vojnicko Polje and you know how the road takes you on then.
14 But Mojmilo is one thing, and Vojnicko is another. I am not really very
15 familiar with that part of Dobrinja.
16 Q. If I understand your evidence, are you telling us that you do not
17 know whether Ante Babica was a road within the control of the ABiH during
18 the war which was a main connection between the city and the territories
19 they controlled in Dobrinja? Are you saying you do not know that?
20 A. I know that Ante Babica was controlled by the BH army, but I don't
21 know where is the beginning and where is the end of that street. I don't
22 know how long is that street. Because a moment ago you mentioned
23 Dobrinja. You said that Ante Babica started in Dobrinja and then that it
24 went on to, what is it, Vojnicko Polje.
25 Q. All right. Let me rephrase the question.
1 Are you aware that if you wished to travel in those years to the
2 ABiH held part of Dobrinja, that one from the city that the road -- that
3 road I mentioned, Ante Babica, could be used in order to make that --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must object
5 here. On the one hand, it is highly hypothetical question and cannot be
6 answered because this road was controlled by the Bosnian army.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you wanted to go from the city to the ABiH
8 controlled part of the Dobrinja, would you have to take Ante Babica to get
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I couldn't do that. I
11 couldn't --
12 JUDGE ORIE: For someone who would be on the other side of the
13 confrontation line, would he have to take that road to --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To get to Dobrinja, he wouldn't have
15 to, no. He wouldn't have to take that route because there was another
16 route via Srakino Selo.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which one was that? Can you point to that on the
18 map. Could perhaps the map can be placed on the ELMO again. Can you
19 indicate what other --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Lukavicka Cesta, from here,
21 and one could get to the city this way, or one could go to the tram stop
22 which is Ante Babica Street. But Lukavicka Cesta -- Lukavicka Cesta, that
23 is what this street is called up to this point. From here to this place
24 and it takes you through Nedzarici. But you could also get into the city
25 below Mojmilo, that is, take Lukavicka Cesta, then take around here, I
1 think all this way, and then you get into the city.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So if you would go to the city, you would either turn
3 right on to Ante Babica or continue until the tram stop? Is that how I
4 understand your -- there were two ways --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, two. This is Lukavicka and
6 then you get do Ante Babica until you reach the tram stop or rather the
7 tram tracks. But you can go below Mojmilo hill and then via Srakino Selo,
8 Olimpijska, and so on.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please continue, Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I want to be
11 very precise so that we avoid any future doubts. The witness said in his
12 language, I think he said that he thought that he believed that the street
13 could take you as far as a particular point, but he wasn't quite sure.
14 That is, he was not at all sure whether the street ended there, and I want
15 the transcript to reflect that. I believe that is what I heard in his
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
18 MR. IERACE: Thank you Mr. President.
19 Q. Now, having regard to the features of the map that you have just
20 shown us, whether you came down Ante Babica Street or whether you came
21 down Salida Hadzic [sic] Street, ultimately you ended up bottom of Mojmilo
22 hill into area of Lukavicka Cesta. Is that correct?
23 A. You would end up in Lukavicka Cesta, that's where you would get
24 to. Because I think it goes here -- I don't know. I think it goes here
25 towards Nedzarici and there towards Lukavicka. Ante Babica Street, this
1 street goes straight towards the tram station.
2 Q. All right. Now, please stop there for a moment. The point is
3 this: That the part of the front line that you controlled was immediately
4 opposite a tactically important supply route for the ABiH. Do you agree
5 with that?
6 A. In which part?
7 Q. On the map in front of you, yesterday you marked the part of the
8 front line that was under control of your forces, that's the continuous
9 black line.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Opposite that line, not immediately opposite, but a little further
12 back, you have Ante Babica Street and you also have the street that runs
13 along the bottom of Mojmilo, Salida Hadjic [sic]. And they were important
14 supply routes for the ABiH into Dobrinja. Do you agree with that?
15 A. Well, yes. They had to go through here, yes, to get to Dobrinja.
16 Q. And at the time that you were in command, you appreciated that
17 fact, didn't you? In other words, you knew the significance of the
18 territory not far from your front line. Is that correct?
19 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
20 Q. Yes, I will repeat the question.
21 At the time that you were in command, you knew the significance of
22 the territory, that is, the territory of the ABiH not far from the front
23 line controlled by your forces under your command, didn't you?
24 A. I knew that they used that route to get to Dobrinja, to Dobrinja
25 V, in fact, to the whole of Dobrinja, which was under their control.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. But this street was blocked.
3 Q. Which street?
4 A. It wasn't possible to see the street in that part, this part
5 here. This part you couldn't see. There were screens and containers. It
6 wasn't possible to see in this part here.
7 Q. Now, for the purpose of the record, you indicate the portion of
8 Ante Babica between Salida Hadjica and Lukavicka Cesta. Is that correct?
9 You say that that part wasn't visible?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to a
13 different street --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I will take care of it.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please point at the part of Ante Babica Street, that
17 part which is at the right-hand side we find the word "Mojmilo," near to a
18 street Olimpijska, and on the left-hand side, whether there is a red cross
19 and a rectangular structure in the map.
20 When the witness earlier pointed at a place where the tram stop
21 would be, he was pointing to the crossroad immediately below where the
22 words "Bitu Menka" appears on the map. When the witness indicated another
23 road that could be used to go to Dobrinja, he was pointing at Salida
24 Hadjica Street, which is parallel to what is called on the map Boulevard
25 Mese Selimovica.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence
5 apologises for interrupting during the questions of my learned colleague,
6 but we would just like to know considering the examination-in-chief, since
7 it lasted less than two hours we think, we would like to ask how long our
8 learned colleague is going to go on so that we have another five witnesses
9 who would like to resolve this issue. And the Defence would like to
10 agree, if that is all right, in order not to lose time. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence stressed again and again that I should
12 account "net" time instead of "total" time. Of course I have been
13 wondering whether I should draw attention of the Prosecution to the time
14 limits. Usually I would do that, but if I have to count net time, I would
15 have great difficulties. That is not to say that I do not ask the
16 Prosecution to proceed and see whether they conclude as soon as possible,
17 but my earlier remarks might shed some light as to the -- how this
18 examination of this witness developed.
19 And, therefore, I expect an indication soon now from Mr. Ierace to
20 hear how much time he would still need, and to see whether we can proceed
21 as efficiently and as quickly as possible. And this is for both parties.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. IERACE:
24 Q. Now, it follows that any part of the territory under your personal
25 command in that period --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there was a
4 question that was addressed to the Prosecution. We asked him to find out
5 how much more time they needed, and the Prosecution didn't answer. And we
6 would like to know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked the Prosecution to give an
8 indication soon as to how much time they would need. The reason why I did
9 so is that if you would like to have this kind of information, you do not
10 ask for it in the middle of a question, but you wait until a suitable
11 moment where you change subject or whatever. So I invited the
12 Prosecution -- let me just find my words -- "I expect an indication soon
13 now from Mr. Ierace to hear how much time he would still need." So I left
14 it up to him to find a suitable moment.
15 So apart from listening to your own questions, perhaps you could
16 also listen to the -- what I asked from the Prosecution. This is a waste
17 of time, the way we proceed. I am not talking about the subject. And the
18 Chamber will consider what to do in order to make this better, but, first
19 of all, urges the parties to cooperate in that respect.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Therefore, any part of that route that could be seen from the area
23 under your control was particularly observed by your forces. Is that
25 A. This part of the road -- I said it a moment ago. This part of the
1 road was protected by screens and containers, and you were not able to
2 see --
3 Q. I am not asking you for the parts you couldn't see. And at this
4 stage, I am not asking you for the parts that you could see. I am simply
5 putting to you that it was of great significance to you as the commander
6 to keep a watchful eye on whatever parts you could see. Is that correct?
7 A. That's correct. But this was protected. Every part of the road
8 that could possibly be visible from the area of Nedzarici was protected in
9 that part.
10 Q. Yes. Now, obviously the reason that you would want to observe
11 that route is if the opportunity presented itself, you could hit any
12 legitimate targets that might go between the city and Dobrinja, the area
13 held by the ABiH. Is that correct?
14 A. We tried to have as little traffic as possible between Dobrinja
15 and the city --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because of the BH army and their
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I really apologise, but I
21 think that this type of question precisely is not on, because the witness
22 already answered because the interest of seeing the road, the interest of
23 seeing a road -- sorry. Could you please.
24 Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.
25 Now, the interest of seeing, having a view of the route is also
1 being protected oneself in terms if there is an attack. So --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course this question is
3 leading, and you could have -- I could have asked whether the importance
4 of the road was to count the density of traffic for future route
5 planning. You could -- it is the question of the Prosecution. It has got
6 nothing to do with the one and only logical explanation, it is just the
7 suggestion put by the Prosecution in this question to the witness, and
8 that is perfectly admissible.
9 Of course, you could have asked in cross-examination [sic] to ask
10 whether the importance of the road was for whatever other reason, but this
11 is the question of the Prosecution. It is leading the witness, and it is
12 intentionally leading the witness and there is no reason not to admit that
13 question. So may I ask you and not for the first time today to --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be reticent and, of course, this is not to deny
16 you the right to object, of course not.
17 Please continue, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might that exhibit be
19 withdrawn for the moment and the witness shown P327900, which is a bundle
20 of photographs, in particular photograph ending with -- photograph ending
21 with the numbers "08."
22 Just while that is being done, a question for the witness.
23 Q. If you did have a place that gave you a view of the -- yes -- a
24 view of the -- those routes, you would have taken advantage of it in terms
25 of insuring that you could fire from that position. Is that correct? If
1 there had been such a place, and I appreciate you say there was not such a
3 A. Of course.
4 Q. Okay. Now, look at the photograph in front of you.
5 MR. IERACE: Could the ELMO be panned back so we can all see.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence
7 apologises. I believe that that question was a hypothetical one asked by
8 my learned colleague, unless they are admissible.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: If the question could be put in a non-hypothetical
11 way, although hypothetical questions sometimes -- oh, yes. The question
12 has already been answered. But --
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I just say, you haven't heard me
14 on this.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I apologise for that.
16 MR. IERACE: I appreciate the answer has been given. For future
17 reference, in my respectful submission, there is nothing wrong about a
18 hypothetical question in those circumstances.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it depends on the circumstances. That is the
20 issue, I would agree with you. Sometimes hypothetical questions should
21 not be admissible, sometimes they would be. Perhaps at a later stage, we
22 could perhaps once discussed with the parties a bit more about what
23 questions are admissible and what are not. Since the question has been
24 answered, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Now, does this photograph appear to be taken from the Institute
2 for Blind Children looking towards those routes that we talked about a few
3 minutes ago, and demonstrating that those routes could not be seen in
4 relation to these buildings in this photograph?
5 A. This could not have been taken from the Institute for Blind
6 Children. This could only have been taken from the part of Lukavicka up,
7 upon -- up.
8 Q. What do you mean by "Lukavicka up"?
9 A. What I meant to say is that it could not have -- the photograph
10 could not have been taken from the Institute for Blind Children. The
11 Institute for Blind Children is on the Aleja Branka Bujica.
12 Q. I suggest to you that, in fact, this is the view which you have,
13 that is, one part of the view that you have from one of the Institute for
14 Blind Children buildings.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the
17 witness was already asked twice and answered.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Under the circumstances, in view of the
19 evidence, the -- Mr. Ierace may proceed. The objection is denied.
20 MR. IERACE:
21 Q. I suggest to you that in fact this photograph, that is, the view
22 which you can see in the photograph, indicates that it was taken from one
23 of the buildings in the Institute for Blind Children. What do you say to
25 A. I say it is not.
1 Q. All right. Are you able to suggest, assuming it was taken from a
2 building, where it was taken from?
3 A. I don't know. I can't...
4 MR. IERACE: Might the witness -- I withdraw that. Before the
5 photograph is taken away. My apologies.
6 Q. The building which appears in the foreground, perhaps you could
7 point to it.
8 A. [Indicates]
9 Q. No. Bring the pointer further down.
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. Lower the pointer by about 3 centimetres.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 Q. Thank you. A bit further down. A bit forth down, please. Could
14 you please bring the pointer a little further down. Thank you.
15 Do you recognise that building?
16 A. I can't remember.
17 Q. Before the war began, did you live in Nedzarici -- and I am not
18 asking you whereabouts -- but did you live in Nedzarici? Yes or no.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For how many years did you live there before the war?
21 A. Before the war, from 1970.
22 Q. [redacted]
23 have indicated on the map. You tell us that you don't recognise that
25 A. I can't remember this part here. This building, this building
1 here and this part I remember. But this, this, I can't remember. I can't
2 remember what it is. It is a car park or something. I don't know what it
4 MR. IERACE: For the purpose of the record, the witness has
5 indicated all the high-rise buildings as buildings he recommends, but not
6 the construction which appears in the middle left of the photograph.
7 Might that photograph be taken away but shown photograph with ERN ending
8 with number "11."
9 Perhaps when you return, Madam Usher, you could take the earlier
10 photograph with you, so that we can have both on the ELMO, if required. I
11 am sorry -- yes, thank you. At this stage, please place photograph 11 on
12 the ELMO, ending in number "11." No, that is not the photograph. No. I
13 will show you the photograph. It might help. Would you find that one.
14 THE REGISTRAR: What number is that, please, Mr. Ierace? This
15 exhibit has only two photographs.
16 MR. IERACE: My apologies. Excuse me. That is P327900.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be double "N" perhaps? No, it might not
18 be. That is another series.
19 THE REGISTRAR: P3279 --
20 MR. IERACE: Double zero --
21 THE REGISTRAR: Double zero has two photographs only?
22 MR. IERACE: Perhaps if you could hold them up. It could save
23 some time. It is neither of those. Perhaps we could try double N. Yes,
24 double N, my apologies. So P3279NN, which should be a bundle of
1 THE REGISTRAR: A set of two photographs.
2 MR. IERACE: Would you hold them up so the witness can't see
3 them. Yes, the top one. And please place that on the ELMO.
4 Q. Now, in this photograph, do you the same building in the
6 A. [Indicates].
7 Q. Yes, you are now pointing to it. And having regard to the view,
8 do you now recognise that both of these photographs are, in fact, taken
9 from one of the buildings of the Institute for Blind Children? In other
10 words, this photograph is looking slightly to the left of the other
11 photograph taken from the same place.
12 A. If you please, this is Lukavicka Cesta here. Is that correct?
13 Let me have a look. This here these are student hostels over there. This
14 is the Lukavicka Cesta, and it goes up here, and here is the intersection
15 up to here. And the Institute for Blind Children, the Institute for Blind
16 Children would be about here. And you cannot photograph --
17 MR. IERACE: Would the ELMO please pan back so we can see all of
18 the photograph and in particular to where the witness just pointed.
19 Q. Now, would you point again to where you said the Institute for
20 Blind Children is. I think you pointed to the left of the photograph.
21 A. These student hostel buildings and here would be the Institute for
22 Blind Children, all the way there.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. IERACE: I would like to witness to be shown another
25 photograph. P3279OA.
1 Q. Now, first of all, please point to the student hostel, I think you
2 called it.
3 A. [Indicates]
4 Q. The hostels, yes, the student hostels, please point to those
6 A. [Indicates]
7 Q. Was there a second student hostel building?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you point to that as well.
10 A. Here it is.
11 Q. Now, in this photograph, do you see Ante Babica Street?
12 A. Ante Babica Street.
13 Q. Are you having trouble in finding --
14 A. [Indicates]
15 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates the road that runs parallel to
16 the bottom of the photograph and is immediately above the bottom of the
18 Q. Now, do you see --
19 A. Now, wait a moment. This ought to be Ante Babica.
20 Q. Yes. All right, now, do you see in the top left-hand corner the
21 buildings of the Institute for Blind Children?
22 A. Here they are.
23 Q. Yes. Now, do you see that two of the buildings appear to face
24 towards the camera, that is, the two on the right, whereas the one on the
25 left appears to face away to the left of the photograph, so that it is at
1 an angle to the camera. I am talking about the buildings of the Institute
2 for Blind Children.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you come to the building on the far left, that is, the
5 Institute for Blind Children building.
6 A. [Indicates]
7 Q. Thank you. And so as we look at that building, it is at an angle
8 to the camera, do you agree?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, yesterday we saw that building consisted of ground floor and
11 then two rows of windows above the ground floor. Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I suggest to you --
14 A. Yes, I can see two.
15 Q. I suggest to you that the two photographs I showed you a few
16 minutes ago were taken from the top level of that building towards the
17 corner closest to the camera in this photograph. I am not saying that you
18 know that. What I am saying to you is that the view which those
19 photographs showed is what you would expect to see from that angle of the
20 top floor of that building.
21 A. Sorry. Could I have the photograph again.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I merely want to say that the
23 witness has answered, I believe, three times this question when it comes
24 to taking photographs from that building.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That last question was not -- could we just -- it is
1 not clear exactly to the Chamber. Could you please take your headphones
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask something, please?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know well where Jugobanka was and
6 I know well where that building is. And nobody can talk me out of what I
7 do know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No one is talking you out of anything at all. Would
9 you please take your headphones off for just a second. Yes. Thank you.
10 Mr. Ierace, the -- you are asking the witness at this moment to
11 identify the place from where a photograph was taken. Is his awareness of
12 specifically that place, is there any necessity to establish this, because
13 it creates a lot of confusion, if you might have noticed. And I wonder
14 whether it is the spot in the city that creates confusion, because it is
15 not the first time, especially on these photographs, we had huge
17 MR. IERACE: Yes. Would it assist you, Mr. President, if I was to
18 explain in the absence of the witness and perhaps in private session very
19 quickly where all this is going.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- could I ask the witness to leave the
21 courtroom for one second.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: No -- yes, you have your earphones on. Could you
24 please follow the usher for a couple of minutes to leave the courtroom.
25 Yes. We will turn into closed session.
1 [Closed session]
13 Pages 14031-14035 – redacted – closed session
3 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, if you would escort the witness into the
12 courtroom, we will turn into open session again. We are in open session.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP6, you had to wait a little bit longer. I hope
15 you got some copy. Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Excuse me.
17 Q. Sir, before we -- before you left the courtroom, I had suggested
18 to you that the two photographs I showed you earlier, that is, the view in
19 those photographs was consistent with them being taken from the building
20 of the Institute for Blind Children, which appeared at the top of
21 aerial-type photograph. And you asked us if you could see again those
22 first two photographs.
23 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown both the aerial
24 photograph, which is P3279OA, and also the two earlier photographs, which
25 are P327900, ERN ending in "08," and P3279NN, with an ERN ending in
1 number "11." So that is three photographs altogether.
2 Q. When you receive those photographs, please look at them and
3 consider your answer. As you consider your answer, I will point out the
4 feature to you. In one of the three photographs, you can see a drainpipe
5 in the top left-hand corner. Do you see that?
6 MR. IERACE: For the record, that is number "11." I will refer to
7 it that way.
8 Q. That is a drainpipe for taking water off a roof. I think you are
9 holding that photograph at the moment and you are pointing to the
10 drainpipe. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have the
13 photograph on the ELMO, please, so that we can follow.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Please place that photograph on the ELMO. Thank you. And I think
16 you may conclude from that that the photograph was taken looking sideways
17 along a wall and from an opening immediately under the roof. You might
18 look again at photograph P3279OA, that is the aerial-type photograph, and
19 consider what I said to you earlier, that the view in the other two
20 photographs is consistent with them being taken from the upper level of
21 the white building on the left.
22 A. This photograph --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be brought closer to the
24 witness, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph here, had it been
1 taken from the home of blind children and it had been taken in the
2 direction of Lukavicka Cesta, then you would first see the shopping centre
3 and you wouldn't be able to see the student hostel.
4 MR. IERACE:
5 Q. All right. Would you please --
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just intervene. Because the witness seems to
7 understand your question, as if the photograph was taken in the direction
8 of Lukavicka Cesta. Perhaps could you first clarify that, because there
9 seems to be some misunderstanding in that respect.
10 MR. IERACE: I intended to do that, Mr. President, by taking the
11 witness to -- that's all right -- taking the witness to Exhibit D1760,
12 that is the map. That might be the easiest way to clarify it. Please
13 place that map on the ELMO. All right.
14 Q. Now, would you please indicate again on the map in front of you
15 the position of those three buildings of the Institute for Blind Children.
16 A. It is this here.
17 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And here, sorry. May I say
19 something now?
20 MR. IERACE:
21 Q. Please do.
22 A. This is the home for blind children. This is where the shopping
23 centre is. Those buildings are here. In this part, these buildings could
24 have been photographed from somewhere here because the students' hostel,
25 if you can see the students' hostel too, or one wing of the hostel -- one
1 wing of the hostel.
2 Q. All right. First of all --
3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Sorry, Mr. Ierace. Could I just ask you,
4 because we have been talking about the institute and the shopping centre,
5 et cetera. Maybe we should mark.
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then we would need other pictures because
8 these are exhibits already admitted into evidence. So we would have to --
9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am talking of the map.
10 JUDGE ORIE: On the map, yes, of course.
11 MR. IERACE: All right.
12 Q. Would you please point again to the buildings which are the
13 Institute for Blind Children, whereabouts on the map would those three
14 buildings be.
15 A. Here.
16 Q. Please take the blue pen and circle the position of the three
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you. Now, above that, above the blue circle, put the
20 letters "IBC."
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. Now, take the pointer, not the pen, and point to where
23 the shopping centre was.
24 A. The shopping centre is here.
25 Q. All right. Now, tell us what the shopping centre looked like
1 during the conflict. How many storeys was it?
2 A. No storeys at all. The shopping centre -- the shopping centre had
3 a ground floor and a roof above it, because it was ten years ago.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. IERACE: Now, perhaps since the usher has the photographs --
6 please wait -- in her hand, at this stage on the top of the photograph,
7 could you put photograph 11. You have only got the one photograph. I
8 think it is on the table. Thank you.
9 Q. Sir, that white building in the foreground, could you please point
10 to it with the pointer. No. No.
11 A. Yes, the students' hostel.
12 Q. No, stop. Bring your pointer to the right, more to the right.
13 Thank you. A little lower. Bring the pointer down. Thank you.
14 Is that building the shopping centre? If you take your hand away,
15 you can see all of the building. Thank you.
16 A. This seems to be a part of the shopping centre.
17 Q. All right. Now, please, if the court usher could remove the
18 photograph. And on the map, sir, with a cross, please mark the position
19 of the shopping centre.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. All right. Now, alongside the cross in small letters, could you
22 write the initials "SC."
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you.
25 Now, could you point to the two buildings which are the student
1 hostels. Don't mark anything yet, just point to them.
2 A. This is one wing of the hostels.
3 Q. Yes, and can you see the other wing?
4 A. I can see all three of them here on the map, on this map.
5 Q. Were there two separate buildings which were the students'
6 hostels, each building having three wings each?
7 A. Well, that is what I am saying. Wings, I can see all three wings
8 of the hostels on the map -- excuse me. If this here is the Institute for
9 Blind Children and over there the student hostels and this here is
10 shopping centre, then what kind of a photograph could you take to cover
11 all these places? And I remember very well this building here, this
13 Q. Which building?
14 A. That's right. Yes, this building and that building.
15 MR. IERACE: Stop a minute. We can't see. Can you place the
16 photograph on the ELMO. Sorry. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. DP6, if you want to point at something,
18 first ask the usher to put that photograph on the -- yes.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. All right. Now, a minute ago you said, "I remember very well this
21 building here." Please point to the building that you had in mind.
22 A. It is this building here and this building there. This building
23 was before in front of Lukavicka Cesta, this here. This is alongside
24 Lukavicka Cesta here. And in this passage here, it was the Jugobanka,
25 bank building. Here is Lukavicka Cesta, here is the shopping centre, and
1 here this didn't exist at the time.
2 Q. Please stop for a minute.
3 MR. IERACE: I don't know that we can make much sense of that for
4 the transcript, but essentially the witness pointed first to a high-rise
5 building with a whitish wall facing the camera above the building he
6 earlier indicated may be the shopping centre. And he then indicated some
7 high-rise buildings above the red roof. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the -- this is the shopping
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. Please wait for the question. Would you now please go -- I am
12 sorry, you just indicated the building you said was the shopping centre.
13 Could you place the pointer back on that.
14 A. [Indicates].
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates a building with a brown roof
17 immediately to the right of the photograph of the roof which is coloured
18 black, red, and orange in stripes.
19 Please, court usher if you could remove that photograph.
20 Q. Sir, now on the map, can you circle the two student hostels, with
21 your blue pen.
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. Above them, would you please write the letters "SC" -- I am sorry
24 "SH." On the road, if you just write "SH."
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. All right. Now, please put down your pen and continue to look at
2 the map. I want you to imagine, looking at the map, that you are standing
3 in the position of the buildings of the Institute of Blind Children and
4 facing towards the student hostel. In that position, you would have a
5 road curving in front of you and to the right of the road, you would see
6 the shop centre. Do you agree with that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. You would also have on your immediate right --
9 A. But at the same time --
10 Q. Please wait for the question. On your immediate right, you would
11 have a road going off to the right. Do you understand what I am putting
12 to you?
13 A. It is Aleja Branka Bujica which goes towards the students'
14 hostels, is that what you mean?
15 Q. If you are looking toward the student hostel, that road would
16 appear going in the direction of the student hostel. I am now talking
17 about the road which would be to your immediate right going towards the
18 south-east. Please point to that road, from the student hostel.
19 A. [Indicates].
20 Q. Yes. And the name of that road is? What is the name of that
22 A. Lukavicka Cesta.
23 Q. All right. Excuse me. Now, I want you to look at photograph
24 number 11 alongside the map. Position the photograph so you can move your
25 eyes from the photograph to the map.
1 Now, hypothetically accept from me for the moment that the
2 photographer is standing in the position of the Institute for the Blind
3 looking to the right of the student hostels. Do you understand what I am
4 putting to you? Do you understand what I have just said? Please don't
5 comment yet.
6 So the photographer is standing in the --
7 A. I didn't understand.
8 Q. All right. You did not understand.
9 Imagine that the photographer at the time he took this photograph
10 was standing in the position of the Institute for Blind Children, in
11 particular, in the position of the building closest to the road. Do you
12 understand what I am putting to you? In other words, just --
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. You would expect that in the photograph on the left-hand side of
15 the photograph you would see part of the student -- at least part of the
16 student hostel complex, correct, if he was looking in that direction? You
17 would expect that, wouldn't you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. Look at the photograph. Do you see to the left of the
20 photograph part of the student hostel complex?
21 A. Yes, yes, these are student hostels.
22 Q. All right. Look again at the map, please. You would expect to
23 the right you would see Lukavicka Cesta and not so far to the right, you
24 would see the shopping complex, do you agree? Looking at the map, that is
25 what you would expect?
1 A. From the Institute for Blind Children, if you took the photograph,
2 if you photographed this part and these buildings, because I can see these
3 buildings next to the student hostel. These buildings next to -- next to
4 the student hostel.
5 Q. Please wait. Can the ELMO pan back so we can see the photograph.
6 Further. Could you please repeat what you just said so that we can all
7 now see the photograph.
8 A. This is the student hostel. These are the buildings down there by
9 the tram station.
10 Q. Stop there, please. Go back to the map.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am going to
12 make an objection because the witness wanted to say something and -- the
13 witness wanted to say what one could see according to him, and he was
14 interrupted by Mr. Ierace, who has been leading him in an unacceptable
16 MR. IERACE: I simply wish the witness to indicate on the map
17 where the tram station is because he hasn't done that yet.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might be your next question.
19 When you were interrupted, Mr. DP6 -- yes. When you were
20 interrupted, what would you add? You told us about the buildings --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say -- I wanted to say
22 that in my opinion, it is impossible -- it is impossible that if then the
23 closest thing would be to the photographer would be the -- if you are
24 taking from the institute -- you would be -- for blind children, you would
25 be looking at the shopping centre and that would be the closest. But if I
1 am looking at it now, that is not so.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.
3 MR. IERACE:
4 Q. All right. Now, on the map, can you point to the position of the
5 tram station that you mentioned a few minutes ago.
6 A. Here you are. This way here, this part here.
7 Q. All right. Now, what is the name of that road?
8 A. This road?
9 Q. Yes, what is its name?
10 A. It says here Bolevar Mese Selimovica. This road goes through the
11 city and next to this road is the tram station, you just cross the
12 intersection and you get to the tram section. The tram is going from
13 Bascarsija to Ilidza.
14 Q. Okay, now on that road we see a line in the middle which I think
15 we can take as represent the tram line. Alongside the name
16 "Oslobodjenje," we see a circle. Does that circle -- is the position of
17 that circle where there was a turning mechanism for the tram, to turn them
18 around? Where they stop?
19 A. This here where it says Bitu Menka and perhaps 50 metres from Bitu
20 Menka, that's where you turn the tram around and not where the circle is
21 by the Oslobodjenje building.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. In the direction of the student hostels, that is where it should
24 be, about here. This is where the tram turns around, not over there.
25 Q. Now, are you saying that you would expect to see in the photograph
1 in front of you that tram station? Is that what you are saying?
2 A. From -- if you look from this angle where it was photographed, you
3 cannot see the tram stop, the tram station. What I am saying, you cannot
4 see the tram station from there, because the tram station is behind the
5 student hostels.
6 Q. Please indicate on the photograph again. Please give your answer
8 A. The tram station is behind the student hostels.
9 Q. So why do you say you would expect to see the tram station, if it
10 is behind the students' hostels?
11 A. No, I didn't say that I would expect to see a tram station, but I
12 was just explaining to you that there is a tram station over there.
13 Q. Let me ask you this: You have told us that the Institute for
14 Blind Children at the time that you were -- I will rephrase that -- up
15 until February 1993, at least, was used on its upper floor as an
16 observation point. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I take it that you went there from time to time to see what
19 you could observe?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you ever see the tram station from there?
22 A. You cannot see the tram station from there. You can just see by
23 the Oslobodjenje building where the tram goes. You can see the track,
24 tram track, but you cannot see the station. It is Oslobodjenje building
25 which is preventing you from seeing tram station from tram number five.
1 Q. Now, if you can imagine standing in the observation level of the
2 Institute for Blind Children, from there you could see going off to your
3 right Lukavicka Cesta. Is that correct? Pardon my pronunciation.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In front of you, you could see the shopping centre, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in the distance to your left you could see the two student
8 hostel buildings, correct?
9 A. On the left-hand side, I would have the student hostels on my
11 Q. On the photograph in front of you, consistent with that, you have
12 identified part of the student hostel on your left, correct?
13 A. You can see one part, yes.
14 Q. The student hostel -- I am sorry -- the shopping centre in front
15 of you, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And going off to the right, can you see and identify Lukavicka
19 A. This is Lukavicka Cesta.
20 Q. No. I suggest to you that the other road is Lukavicka Cesta.
21 Please point to the road going off to the right.
22 A. This here.
23 Q. Yes. I suggest to you that that is Lukavicka Cesta.
24 A. I don't think it is.
25 Q. In any event, do you agree that wherever this photograph is taken
1 from is a position that, during the war, was on your side of the
2 confrontation line?
3 A. I think it was, yes.
4 Q. All right. Now, do you agree that in this photograph -- I
5 withdraw that.
6 What have you referred to as the name of the road that ran from
7 the Institute for Blind Children down to Ante Babica Street? What do you
8 know that road's name to be?
9 A. From the Institute for Blind Children until Ante Babica Street,
10 that was Aleja Branka Bujica.
11 Q. Aleja Branka Bujica?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In this photograph, I suggest to you that in the distance towards
14 the left we can see the intersection of Aleja Branka Bujica and Ante
15 Babica immediately above the roof which is painted in black, red, and
16 orange. Can you see that intersection?
17 A. Here?
18 Q. Yes. Would you like a magnifying glass? I have one here.
19 A. As much as I think, it seems to me that this was taken from
20 Lukavicka Cesta. It was photographed from Lukavicka Cesta, not from the
21 Institute for the Blind. Because here is the shopping centre.
22 Q. Sir, that is not the question. I am asking you -- I am putting to
23 you that in the photograph above the roof is an intersection, and I am
24 suggesting to you it is the intersection of Lukavicka Cesta --
25 A. I can see the street here. I can see the street here.
1 Q. I ask the witness --
2 A. But perhaps from some position from Lukavicka Cesta the photograph
3 could have been taken.
4 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P3279NN, with an
5 ERN ending in numbers "09.
6 Q. I want you to accept from me that this photograph is taken from
7 the same place as the earlier photograph looking over the black, red, and
8 orange roof, and in the direction of that same intersection.
9 Do you now recognise that intersection?
10 A. This is the Aleja here. Yes. The same as on the other
11 photograph, except that this is -- the other one was further back. This
12 was closer. That is that street and that is Ante Babica Street.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Now, I think you have agreed that from wherever this photograph
15 was taken, it was somewhere on the territory that was controlled by the
16 SRK, correct?
17 A. Yes, that's right. I said that before, that it was taken from the
18 territory of the SRK.
19 Q. And --
20 A. Because on the Lukavicka Cesta -- from the Lukavicka Cesta was the
21 SRK territory.
22 Q. All right. Now, more particularly, having regard to your
23 identification of the shopping centre in photograph ending with the number
25 MR. IERACE: And perhaps that could be placed back on the ELMO.
1 Q. The photograph appears to be taken from somewhere in the area of
2 the front line controlled by you and your fellow troops, that's correct,
3 isn't it?
4 A. Yes, most probably. Because if it was taken -- if the photograph
5 was taken from Lukavicka Cesta.
6 Q. Now, assuming for the moment that the photograph was taken from a
7 building which existed between the beginning of the conflict and February
8 1993, do you accept that indeed from buildings on your part of the front
9 line you could see Ante Babica Street?
10 A. The street of Ante Babica, it was possible to see it from the
11 buildings that we had, but until they put containers here and other
12 things, some screens and so on.
13 Q. All right. Do I understand you --
14 A. But here you couldn't see anything when the war started, when they
15 put barricades -- I don't mean barricades, containers. They put them
16 there for their own protection, for their personal protection, so that
17 they can move, so that people can move there.
18 Q. Do I understand you to be agreeing that if not from the Institute
19 for Blind Children, then certainly from other building on your part of the
20 front line, you had a view of Ante Babica Street, except for the
21 containers that were put up and other barricades?
22 A. Well, you could have seen the Ante Babica Street, that is this
23 intersection, from some parts. I don't know which ones. I don't know
24 where this was taken from. But according to the picture, I can see that
25 it was possible. And I know that during the war, there were containers
2 Q. Now, we don't have much time, so if you can sufficiently answer
3 with a yes or no, if you can, please do so.
4 Now, you have told us that containers and barricades were erected
5 on that intersection. When did that happen?
6 A. Perhaps it was a lapsus when I said barricades. I meant
7 containers and protection of sorts. This was set up sometime -- I am not
8 quite sure of the date -- but it was perhaps May, perhaps even before May
9 in this part.
10 Q. Could you point again?
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. All right. Do you mean May 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, in spite of the containers or barriers -- I think the word
15 you used was containers and --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it is
17 very important for the transcript that we indicate where was it that the
18 witness indicated as having been the presence of containers, exactly on
19 this part which was visible in the Serb territory.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, number one, we can't mark the
21 photograph; secondly, that is an issue that could have been done in
22 re-examination. But having said that, I am happy to, in the interest of
23 saving time, to do it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that the witness was referring to
25 an intersection appearing on 3279NN, last two digits of the photo "11."
1 In the left middle of the photograph which he testified was the same as on
2 P3279NN, last two digits, "09," and there is only one intersection visible
3 on that last photograph.
4 MR. IERACE: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
7 Q. Did you and your fellow troops do your best to hit legitimate
8 military targets crossing that intersection, in spite of the containers?
9 A. Would you please repeat the question.
10 Q. I will rephrase it to make it easier. You have told us that there
11 were some protective measures across that intersection, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I assume that the purpose of those was to stop you and your
14 fellow troops --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- I am objecting to the -- in
18 relation to the answer that was given by the witness. He -- according to
19 him, his instruction was to return fire, that is what his testimony was
21 MR. IERACE: [Previous translation continues]...in the presence of
22 the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: There was nothing in the question that would exclude
24 return fire, whatever kind of fire. It was just, apart from that, the
25 testimony was broader. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE:
2 Q. Now, when you say that "there were protective -- protection that
3 was erected," did you assume that to be at least visual protection for
4 ABiH forces from observation by you and your fellow troops so that you
5 couldn't see them, in other words?
6 A. The protection was set up so that people can pass down the street
7 because it was war. And civilians passed there as well as the military.
8 Q. In spite of the protective measures, I suggest to you that fire
9 continued into that intersection from your positions, the positions of you
10 and your fellow troops.
11 A. In the position where I was, personally, on the Lukavicka Cesta,
12 you could not see this intersection. Because I was on the Lukavicka
13 Cesta, you could only see it from the Aleja Branka Bujica where the
14 Institute for Blind Children is.
15 Q. Will you please go back to the map P3279A.
16 Sir, do you say that the Institute for Blind Children buildings
17 were not part of the front line in your company?
18 A. Yes, that is what I said before. Only Lukavicka Cesta was part of
19 my section of the front line. And you asked me about the Institute for
20 the Blind, and the School of Theology, and the Centre for Blind People,
21 and my answers were to those questions.
22 Q. Which company of your battalion had responsibility for those
24 A. Which buildings?
25 Q. The Institute for Blind Children.
1 A. I think it was the second company -- I am not quite sure. It was
2 called the second company.
3 Q. Who was the commander of the second company from September of 1992
4 until August 1994?
5 A. Why, I don't know who was up to August 1994. I know that in the
6 beginning it was Ljubo Cvijetic, he was the company commander, and there
7 was one Slavko Orasanin until I was wounded. But then I don't know
8 exactly who it was until the 24th. From the 19th of February, 1993, until
9 August 1994, I don't know exactly who commanded the company.
10 Q. Is it therefore the case that you don't know whether there were
11 snipers at any time between September 1992 and February 1993 operating
12 from the Institute for Blind Children, since those buildings were outside
13 the company where you operated?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
16 MR. IERACE: Earphones off.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take your earphones off, Mr. DP6.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I think
20 that we have come back again and again to the question of snipers. The
21 witness has clearly indicated his position. And we were on a huge circle
22 and now tell him were there snipers in his company, whereas he has very
23 clearly testified on several occasions. If we want to respect the
24 testimony, then let us do that, but I think that some rules ought to be
25 respected. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has repeatedly testified that he doesn't
2 know anything about it, Mr. Ierace, so I don't think that this is of great
3 use to continue. Please move to your next subject. And I indicated to
4 you that you were expected to give us a time limit. And I know that the
5 issue you are then dealing with took quite a long time, to put it in mild
6 terms. Do you think you can finish in 10 minute approximately?
7 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have to consider whether more time will be
9 granted to you. Perhaps we will stop in a couple of minutes to see what
10 to do with that situation.
11 Perhaps you finish the -- if there is any new question you would
12 like to put to the witness now, you could do it; otherwise, perhaps we
13 should discuss what the actual situation is.
14 MR. IERACE: In view of the ruling Mr. President, I don't seek to
15 ask any further questions of issue at this stage, and I would certainly
16 seek clearance before I did in the future.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: If the usher could please escort the witness out of
20 the courtroom. But I might ask him to return to tell him what is going to
21 help. So would you please leave the courtroom again for a couple of
22 minutes, but stay standby. Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I would now like to turn into closed session.
1 [Closed session]
13 Pages 14057-14062 – redacted – closed session
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: On the court schedule I saw that there has been no
4 hearing planned for Friday next week. That was a bit of a surprise,
5 because when the -- I am not talking about tomorrow, but I am talking
6 about Friday next week. Because this has -- was not a decision of the
8 So, therefore, we still have to consider whether we will not sit
9 next week Friday. Tomorrow, we will not sit because it is court
10 maintenance. But next week Friday, that is a totally different matter.
11 That is just to connect -- or at least Thursday is an UN holiday and for
12 that reason, the Chambers were asked whether they would agree not to sit
13 on Friday. Such agreement has not been given. So we will still consider
14 that. The parties, therefore, could not rely specifically on the court
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, are you likely to reach a decision on
17 that by this weekend?
18 JUDGE ORIE: We will reach a decision by this weekend. I would
19 say even today. Yes.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are then
23 going to have a serious problem for the Defence, because Ms. Pilipovic
24 relied on this calendar. She already organised her trip to Belgrade. And
25 your humble servant intended to benefit from this break and organise for
1 himself a whole series of appointments in Geneva. I am just warning you
2 that this can cause problems. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It is good that you inform us. I was a bit surprised
4 as well by the court calendar. I usually take it that apart from formal
5 UN holidays and other court maintenance, that we will sit. And of course
6 we will take into consideration that the court calendar might have
7 confused you.
8 Mr. DP6, unfortunately we could not conclude your testimony
9 today. It will take presumably some time again not tomorrow, but early on
10 Monday, because tomorrow this Chamber will not sit. It is very
11 unfortunate that you have to stay for another few days, but would you be
12 able to stay until next Monday? And I guarantee you that by next Monday
13 it will be finished.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can stay because I have told
15 people at the enterprise I work for that I perhaps stay -- Well, I thought
16 I had finished on Friday and I thought I would be back on Monday, but I
17 don't think it will be any difficulty. I will call them today.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I feel very sorry for you that it takes so much
19 time, and we highly appreciate that you can stay until next Monday. May I
20 remind you not to speak to anyone the testimony you gave in this court. I
21 hope to see you again Monday morning.
22 We will adjourn until Monday morning, 9.00, same courtroom.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
24 1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
25 the 21st day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.