Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13959

 1                          Thursday, 17 October 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6    courtroom, especially to those I hardly can see but those are always there

 7    to assist us.

 8            Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

10    Stanislav Galic.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12            Before we continue the examination of the present witness, I would

13    like to turn into closed session.

14                          [Closed session]

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21                          [Open session]

22            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, after we return to open session and

23    before I recommence cross-examination, might I raise an issue --

24            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Mr. Ierace.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.

Page 13961

 1            MR. IERACE:  Yesterday, Mr. President, you asked if it was

 2    contested by the Defence [sic] that there were daily combats, and I said

 3    it was not.  I seek to amend that to rather than  daily, frequent combats,

 4    because there is evidence that there was from time to time some ceasefires

 5    through the indictment period where the level of combat activity either

 6    diminished or, in particular, after Markale, virtually ceased for a period

 7    of time.  What is agreed is that there were frequent combats.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I understood, but I perhaps have to check it

 9    perhaps first whether it was combat on a daily basis.  In view of the

10    testimony of the witness, I would say that this specifically related to

11    the time when he was at the front line.  That is how I understood the

12    testimony, and that is also how I understood my own question.  But if

13    there is any problem with that, the Defence will then have an opportunity

14    to come back to this.

15            Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just to

17    make sure that everything is clear, I believe that I think the Prosecution

18    made a lapsus lingua in page 2 line 2 just to clarify things in the

19    transcript, please.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course, it is contested by the Prosecution,

21    rather than by the Defence.

22            Madam Registrar could you please escort Mr. DP6 into the courtroom

23    and since facial distortion is in effect, I take it that he will not be

24    visible for the outside world when going to his seat.

25                          [The witness entered court]

Page 13962

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. DP6.  Mr. DP6, may I remind you

 4    again that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave the day

 5    before yesterday.  Your cross-examination will now be continued by

 6    Mr. Ierace.

 7            Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

 8            MR. IERACE:  Thank you Mr. President.  Would Madam Registrar have

 9    at hand Defence Exhibit 1761, that is the photograph that I showed to the

10    witness yesterday.  If it is not on hand immediately, I can move on to

11    some other questions.  That is the photograph from the high-rise showing

12    the car park in the mid-ground.  The witnesses marked some buildings with

13    circles and numbers.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  I have it now as P3752.

15            MR. IERACE:  Yes, that's correct.  Thank you.

16                          Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

17       Q.   Sir, does it appear to you that this photograph was taken

18    recently, and certainly after the end of 1995?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   During the period from September 1992 until August of 1994, there

21    were no trees in that area.  Is that correct?  That is, the trees had few

22    branches and few leaves --

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to

24    this question.  The photograph shows a considerable number of trees, in

25    fact wood.  So perhaps we could have a more accurate question.

Page 13963

 1    Such-and-such a tree, because there were so many trees in this photograph,

 2    that the question seems impossible to answer, as it is.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Some of the trees visible on the photograph, one

 4    might wonder whether they could have grown that high in such a short

 5    period.  So would you please be more specific.

 6            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.  That is why I qualified the

 7    question by saying "the trees had few branches and few leaves." But I will

 8    rephrase the question.

 9       Q.   The trees that were there during the indictment period had been --

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

11    phrasing.  The witness doesn't know what the indictment period is.  He

12    doesn't know it.  He can't know it.  He has to be given dates so that he

13    can answer.  It is a formal objection.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...please do so.

15            MR. IERACE:

16       Q.   Between September 1992 and August 1994 the trees that were in the

17    area shown by the photograph had few branches and even in the warmer

18    months, had few leaves.  Is that correct?

19       A.   No.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to

21    object to this kind of question.  This is about all the trees, and how can

22    the witness know this because all of the trees -- if all of the trees in

23    this photograph had few branches.  It seems to me that this is a very

24    meaningless question, really.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  I do agree with the Defence, Mr. Ierace, that it is

Page 13964












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Page 13965

 1    such a wide area --

 2            MR. IERACE:  I am happy to withdraw the question, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 4            MR. IERACE:  In spite of the fact that it has been answered.

 5       Q.   Sir, in the area where you were operating between September 1992

 6    and August 1994, were there civilians living?

 7       A.   Civilians lived there deep into Nedzarici, those that didn't have

 8    to go anywhere.

 9       Q.   What do you mean by "deep into Nedzarici"?

10       A.   Well, for instance, from the first line, from the front line,

11    about 100 metres, since Nedzarici was surrounded, then they had to live

12    there about in the centre of Nedzarici, in the middle, because they

13    couldn't live on the front line.

14       Q.   So up to 100 metres from the front line on your side, there were

15    civilians living.  Is that correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did they have -- I think you said yesterday there was not

18    electricity and, therefore, there was not water from time to time.  Is

19    that correct?

20       A.   I said that there was no electricity and, therefore, there was no

21    water.  I also said that we had a well from which we drew water.

22       Q.   Yes.  What did the civilians use in order to keep warm in the

23    colder months?

24       A.   During the cold months there was gas.  So we used gas as fuel for

25    heating.

Page 13966

 1       Q.   Did they -- sorry.  Go on.

 2       A.   I apologise.  And also, we had some firewood.

 3       Q.   But there was no need for the civilians to chop down the trees to

 4    produce wood for cooking and heating.  Is that correct?

 5       A.   Of course there was need for that.  There was need for that.  When

 6    there was no gas, then civilians had to use something to heat themselves

 7    with.

 8       Q.   Earlier you told us there was gas for heating.  Do you now mean

 9    that there was not always gas for heating?

10       A.   That's right.

11       Q.   Did that not mean that the trees on your territory were harvested

12    for wood for heating?

13       A.   Well, you couldn't cut the trees down because they were -- above

14    us were high-rise buildings; none of us dared to go near and cut it off.

15       Q.   Where there were trees obstructing your view of important parts of

16    the territory of the enemy, did you and your subordinates take steps to

17    eliminate them through gunfire?

18       A.   We couldn't get to the trees to eliminate them -- to eliminate the

19    trees.  Because a moment ago I said that above us, there were high-rise

20    buildings.

21       Q.   Which is why I asked you if gunfire was used to achieve that

22    objective.

23       A.   We didn't open fire because of the trees.  We only opened fire in

24    case of attack.

25       Q.   Do you understand the question?  I am asking you whether gunfire

Page 13967

 1    was used to eliminate the cover provided by trees where important parts of

 2    the enemy territory was protected from sight?

 3       A.   Well, how could you get rid of branches of a tree by gunfire?  I

 4    don't understand.  I don't know how you can do that.

 5       Q.   I suggest to you that bursts of gunfire can eliminate branches

 6    from trees.  Do you disagree with that?

 7       A.   We didn't do that.

 8       Q.   Okay.  You told us yesterday that before the -- at some stage

 9    before the conflict, you had been a permanent member of the JNA.  Between

10    what years were you in the JNA?

11       A.   No, no.  I didn't say that I was a permanent member.

12       Q.   Were you --

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can the

14    Prosecution please quote the line and page.  Thank you.

15            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I am happy to do that, that is, find

16    the reference to the witness saying he had been in the JNA.  But in the

17    meantime, I will move on.

18       Q.   Were you in the JNA?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   When?

21       A.   When I went to do my service in 1975.  And I did my service for 15

22    months.

23       Q.   All right.  And is that where you gained some expertise with

24    anti-aircraft artillery?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 13968

 1            MR. IERACE:  I note my friend is on his feet, Mr. President.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

 3    know, it is not my recollection that this witness said anything

 4    whatsoever, but perhaps I am mistaken.  That's why I ask for quotation --

 5    for the reference.  I don't know whether he mentioned anti-aircraft

 6    artillery.  I remember the shelling, but I don't remember the

 7    anti-aircraft.  So perhaps if I could have the reference, please.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  He did it on the first or the beginning of the second

 9    day.  It is --

10            MR. IERACE:  If I could assist, Mr. President.  Firstly, the

11    question did not say that he did, but as it happens he did, and the page

12    number is 13864 at line 21, the reference to the witness being in the JNA

13    is on the same page at line 18.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15            MR. IERACE:

16       Q.   Now, in relation to anti-aircraft artillery --

17       A.   I apologise.  I remember well what I said.  You asked me if I had

18    served in the army and also what my military specialty was.  So I said

19    that was I light anti-aircraft artillery when I was serving -- when I was

20    doing my military service.

21       Q.   Actually, it was the Defence who asked you that, not me.

22            Now, in relation to anti-aircraft artillery, is that a --

23       A.   Yes.  Yes, of course, okay.

24       Q.   Is that a weapon which is intended to place a number of exploding

25    rounds over a large area in the path of aircraft?

Page 13969

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Is there a means of operating that weapon so that the barrel moves

 3    as it fires in order to spray rounds over a large area?

 4       A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean, "over a large area"?

 5       Q.   The objective is not to fire successive rounds along the same --

 6    exactly the same path, but rather for each round to go in a slightly

 7    different direction.  Isn't that correct?

 8       A.   When I was in the army, I was taught how to use an anti-aircraft

 9    cannon in order to hit an aircraft.

10       Q.   Would you please answer the question.

11       A.   Well, I told you.

12       Q.   The --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you try to repeat the question in such a way

14    that the witness clearly understands what you mean.

15            MR. IERACE:  I will, Mr. President.

16       Q.   When you fire an anti-aircraft gun, bullets leave the barrel in

17    quick succession, that is, there is a burst of fire that comes out of the

18    barrel.  Is that correct?

19       A.   Yes, yes.

20       Q.   And the idea is not that each bullet goes exactly in the same

21    direction, but rather bullets go in slightly different directions in order

22    to create that wall of exploding rounds in front of the aircraft.  Is that

23    correct?

24       A.   With an anti-aircraft cannon, when you are firing it, of course

25    you press the pedal -- or I had forgotten how you are supposed to do

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Page 13971

 1    that.  Then the bullets are going from three different barrels and they

 2    are going one after the other.

 3       Q.   All right.  As you press the pedal, does that move the gun across

 4    an arch?

 5       A.   Well that -- you can stop that, you can put a brake on.

 6       Q.   All right.  When you do cause the gun to move as it fires, if that

 7    is used against ground forces, it becomes an area weapon, doesn't it?

 8       A.   To tell you the truth, I learned in the army how to use it against

 9    aircraft, but for area forces, for land forces, I...

10       Q.   Would you please finish your answer.  For land forces what?

11       A.   And against land forces, I was not taught that.  I only was

12    trained to use it against aircraft.

13       Q.   Do you have any difficulty with the idea of using a weapon like

14    that against land forces?  Is there any problem with that?

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not a military strategist.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am objecting

18    for the following reason.  The witness just said that he did not learn and

19    that he was not taught that this cannon can be used against land forces.

20    Now, the following thing is that Mr. Ierace is addressing the witness, did

21    you, do you have any difficulty and so on now, contrary to what the

22    witness just said.  So he cannot ask a question like this because the

23    witness just said that he did not know that it was used as a land weapon.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  I think the question was rather hypothetical.  Then

25    you never used, Mr. DP6, anti-aircraft guns against -- on land, not

Page 13972

 1    against aircraft?  Am I correct in understanding?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We never used anti-aircraft cannons

 3    for targets on land in the army.  While in the war, I didn't even have an

 4    opportunity to see an anti-aircraft cannon.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Did you give it ever some thought on what the effect

 6    would be of using such a weapon, even if you did not do it yourself, in

 7    land warfare?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't interested in that.

11            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12       Q.   You also told us yesterday that you and your force obtained some

13    weapons from the JNA barracks in Nedzarici, that you would go there in

14    groups of 10 or 15.  Is that correct?  Do you remember saying that?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   You said that there was someone in the barracks.  Would that

17    person give you the guns?

18       A.   Yes.  There were some people there; I didn't even know them.  And

19    then when 10 people arrived to take the weapons, they would return to the

20    line, and then the next group would come.

21       Q.   And I take it that with the guns --

22       A.   It was an elderly man.  I don't know what his name was.

23       Q.   With the guns, you also received presumably ammunition?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And you told us -- how many groups were there that went?  How many

Page 13973

 1    groups of 10 or 15 people?

 2       A.   Seven or eight.  I do say six, seven groups, as far as the front

 3    line was at which I was concerned.

 4       Q.   And those troops left with M-48 rifles, semi-automatic, automatic

 5    rifles, and semi-automatic machine-guns.  Is that correct?

 6       A.   That's correct.

 7       Q.   You told us that in relation to uniforms, that usually a number of

 8    you had JNA uniforms, some were civilian clothes, but then camouflage

 9    uniforms arrived.  When did they arrive?

10       A.   I wouldn't know exactly.  Sometime in the autumn at about this

11    time of year.  I can't remember exactly.

12       Q.   So about October of 1992.  Is that correct?

13       A.   Yes, thereabouts.  I am not quite sure.

14       Q.   Were they winter uniforms?

15       A.   Yes.  They were olive/green/grey two-piece uniforms, the jacket

16    and the trousers.

17       Q.   Where were they made?

18       A.   I don't know.

19       Q.   Do you know where they came from?

20       A.   In the barracks, I suppose.

21       Q.   These were new uniforms weren't they?

22       A.   Well, they were both secondhand because in the former system, the

23    troops had the uniforms, and when the troops pulled out, the uniforms

24    stayed behind.

25       Q.   All right.  So were they JNA uniforms?

Page 13974

 1       A.   They were, yes.

 2       Q.   So from somewhere you and your troops all received winter uniforms

 3    ex-JNA, in October of 1992.  Is that correct?

 4       A.   Well, more or less.

 5       Q.   Now, once the ammunition that you received from he JNA barracks

 6    ran out, I take it you were resupplied, were you?

 7       A.   We were supplied with ammunition.

 8       Q.   At that stage, in October of 1992, did you regard yourself as a

 9    member of the Sarajevo Romanija Corp?

10       A.   I did.

11       Q.   Had you met General Galic by then?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Had you heard of General Galic?

14       A.   No.  I didn't hear about General Galic for a very long time.  I

15    don't even know when was it that I heard of him.  Perhaps when I returned

16    from this spa in Arandjelovac after my wounding.

17       Q.   In October 1993, is that when you mean?

18       A.   Well, after I was wounded, I don't know when it was that they

19    heard, but it was then that I heard about General Galic, then -- I mean,

20    when I returned from the spa.

21       Q.   Did you ever meet General Galic?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   You never -- you have never met General Galic.  Is that correct?

24       A.   Never.

25       Q.   Have you ever seen General Galic before you appeared in this

Page 13975

 1    courtroom, in the flesh?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Did General Mladic ever, between September 1992 and August 1994,

 4    go to Nedzarici?  In other words, did you ever see him there between those

 5    dates?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Did you receive --

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object because the question

10    contained two elements.  On one hand, whether General Mladic had visited

11    or not Nedzarici; and secondly, whether the witness saw him.  And now I do

12    not know whether it is of any use to talk about General Mladic, but I

13    object to the form of question which is a two-fold question and therefore

14    the witness is unable to answer it directly

15            JUDGE ORIE:  The question was specified after first -- the

16    question being whether General Mladic ever went to Nedzarici.  It was then

17    specified whether the witness saw him in Nedzarici.  Would you answer the

18    question:  Did you ever see in the time period just mentioned,

19    General Mladic in Nedzarici?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.

21            MR. IERACE:

22       Q.   Now, just in relation to ammunition for the small arms, and by

23    that I mean up to and including machine-guns, did that ammunition come in

24    boxes?

25       A.   It came -- some of it came in boxes, some of it came looser.  I

Page 13976












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Page 13977

 1    don't know.  All I know is that it came.

 2       Q.   Sir, what do you mean you don't know, given that you were the

 3    company commander, how the ammunition arrived?  Did it come just in boxes

 4    or in some other form?

 5       A.   The ammunition came both in boxes and loose, that is, in soft

 6    board boxes.

 7       Q.   Either way, it came in boxes, didn't it?

 8       A.   There were crates, those army crates, and there were also some

 9    boxes.

10       Q.   All right.  Now, where was, in what places was that ammunition

11    manufactured according to the markings on the boxes?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't really know.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.  I object.  I do not

14    see that in the previous line of questioning the fact emanated that the

15    crates were marked.  I can well imagine a carton box which said Coca-Cola

16    or something.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, could you perhaps -- if you would like to

18    ask the witness, first ask about the facts.

19            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.

20       Q.   Boxes of ammunition, I suggest to you, would have had markings on

21    them as to their type and place of manufacture, at least the country of

22    manufacture.  Is that correct?

23       A.   I do not know what it said on the crates and boxes.  All I know is

24    that we got the ammunition.

25       Q.   You at least had to look at the boxes to make sure they were the

Page 13978

 1    appropriate gauge of ammunition, didn't you?

 2       A.   Well, I opened the box and I see what the calibre is.

 3       Q.   I see.  In relation to small arms, again, rifles, pistols,

 4    machine-guns, did you receive any fresh equipment up until August 1994?

 5       A.   No.

 6            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, might the witness be shown again the

 7    map that he marked yesterday in cross-examination.  I think that --

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  D1760.

 9            MR. IERACE:  Yes.  Perhaps that could be placed on the ELMO.

10       Q.   Yesterday you marked the brigade and battalion headquarters, and

11    you indicated - and correct me if I am wrong - that they were the

12    positions from the September 1992 throughout the period up until August of

13    1994.  Is that the position?  Is that correct?

14       A.   Could you repeat the question.

15       Q.   The position you indicated for the battalion headquarters, I think

16    you said that the headquarters stayed there from September 1992 until

17    August of 1994.  Is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Did the battalion headquarters remain in that same -- remain in

20    its position indicated on the map throughout the same period?

21       A.   The battalion command, I have said it, I know it was in Nedzarici

22    until the 20th of February, 1993, and then I was wounded.  When I was

23    wounded, the battalion commander moved to Kasindolska Street -- but I

24    don't know the date, because I was not there -- and stayed in Kasindolska

25    until the end of the war.

Page 13979

 1       Q.   Does that street appear on the map, and if so, could you point to

 2    it with the pointer.

 3            MR. IERACE:  Perhaps the ELMO can pan back.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is.  Kasindolska.  Like

 5    this.

 6            MR. IERACE:

 7       Q.   Now, you told us that you were a company commander up until

 8    February of 1993.

 9       A.   That's right.

10       Q.   Was your command headquarters in the same position throughout the

11    period that you were a company commander?

12       A.   Yes, on Lukavicka Cesta.

13       Q.   First, with the pointer, would you indicate the position of the

14    company headquarters.

15       A.   The company headquarters was somewhere -- somewhere here, in the

16    middle between the first and the last position.

17       Q.   What type of building was it?

18       A.   It was a house with some upper floors.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is necessary

22    to show for the transcript that the witness pointed at a line which he

23    himself drew as a continuous line and the middle of this line, because

24    otherwise we won't know.

25            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, it will be marked in due course.

Page 13980

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2            MR. IERACE:

 3       Q.   Was that house anywhere near the -- I withdraw that.

 4            How far was the house from the nearest building in the complex of

 5    the Institute for Blind Children, approximately?

 6       A.   For blind children, it was some 80 maybe 100 metres from the

 7    Institute for the Blind to the company headquarters.

 8       Q.   Would you please take a --

 9       A.   150.

10       Q.   All right.

11       A.   From here to here.  That's about 80 to 150 -- well, I am not

12    sure.  About 100 metres.

13       Q.   Would you now please take a black pen and with the black pen place

14    a cross to indicate the position of the company headquarters.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  What about a blue pen, Mr. Ierace?

16            MR. IERACE:  Yes, I forgot, Mr. President.  A blue pen.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  A blue pen, please.

18            MR. IERACE:

19       Q.   To the left of the cross, please place the letter "C."

20       A.   [Marks]

21       Q.   And then underneath the cross, but avoiding writing over the black

22    indicated front line, please write the initials "CHY."

23       A.   [Marks]

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            MR. IERACE:  Perhaps the map could stay there for the moment.

Page 13981

 1    Well -- no, perhaps the map could be withdrawn.

 2       Q.   In any military -- in any armed combat, high ground is

 3    particularly valued.  Would you agree with that?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Yesterday you told us about how the ABiH took advantage of the

 6    high structures on their side of the confrontation line --

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.    -- and you also said in relation to your side that the

 9    Theological Institute was a high building, not as high, but a high

10    building.  Is that correct?

11       A.   Yes, four floors.

12            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I do apologise.  Perhaps the usher

13    could return the map.

14       Q.   With the pointer -- withdraw that.

15            Yesterday you marked the front line and in particular, as I

16    understand it, the portion of the front line which was the responsibility

17    of your company.  Is that correct?

18       A.   It is.

19       Q.   With the pointer, could you slowly outline the entire territory

20    which was the responsibility for your company.

21       A.   I showed it to you yesterday, and I drew it.

22       Q.   No, you showed us the front line.  But did that territory -- how

23    far back from the front line was the territory that was occupied in

24    particular by your company?

25       A.   My company was right next to the Lukavicka Cesta.  Here, in these

Page 13982












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Page 13983

 1    houses, as I marked them.

 2       Q.   All right.  Well, if you had walked say 300 metres back from the

 3    front line, that is, towards the south-west, would there have been members

 4    of your company there as well or were they confined to the front line and

 5    the immediately adjacent area to the front line?

 6       A.   The soldiers were always on the front line.

 7       Q.   In the area of Nedzarici occupied by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,

 8    in terms of the highest buildings, there was the Theological Institute.

 9    Is that correct?

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.  And

11    the foundation for it is purely semantic.  We have not accepted that term

12    "aggressor" and, therefore, I do not think that we can accept the term

13    "occupied" which does not -- means occupation as in some historical

14    example that we already heard.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, may I take it that under the control,

16    would there as well this is also considered to be sensitive?

17            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19            MR. IERACE:

20       Q.   Apart from the Theological Institute, what were the other tall

21    buildings in that area?

22       A.   Come on, we didn't have any tall buildings apart from the

23    Theological Faculty on the front line, and we had old people's home and

24    the Centre for the Blind.  Those were the tallest buildings in Nedzarici,

25    I mean, because it was all private houses there.

Page 13984

 1       Q.   Now, were all of those private houses occupied by civilians

 2    between September 1992 and August 1994, to the best of your knowledge?

 3       A.   No.  No.  Not all of them.

 4       Q.   In your company --

 5       A.   On the front line -- on the front line there were no civilians.  I

 6    said it last time a moment ago that some were about 100 metres in the

 7    depth of Nedzarici territory, there were still some civilians who had

 8    nowhere to go.

 9       Q.   By the end of 1992, how many troops were there in your company?

10       A.   Until the end of 1992, I don't know the exact number.  I think we

11    were -- when I was wounded, that was 1993, we were some 118 soldiers.

12       Q.   All right.  Now, in terms of equipment that your company had, how

13    many mortars did you have by February 1993?

14       A.   One.  The 60 one, 60 millimetres.

15       Q.   How many snipers?

16       A.   We had no snipers.

17       Q.   How many snipers were operating on your part of the front line?

18       A.   I am not aware of any.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.  The witness has

20    just said that there were no snipers, and then the next question asks him

21    again how many of them were there at the front line.  The witness knows

22    only that front lines; he said there were no snipers.  So it is an

23    admissible to ask him a question like that.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...the question was

25    about the company; the second was on that part of the front line in which

Page 13985

 1    the witness testified that only part of that front line was within his

 2    company.  But the question has been answered.

 3            So, Mr. Ierace, I think there is no need to continue.  The witness

 4    has testified that there were no snipers in his company, and that -- yes.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I certainly didn't eliminate the

 6    distinct possibility that snipers could have been brought in from other

 7    companies to operate on his portion of the front line, and that was what I

 8    had in mind with that question.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10            MR. IERACE:  I am sorry.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12            MR. IERACE:  Yes.

13       Q.   How many snipers were there in the Ilidza Brigade?

14       A.   I don't know.  I really don't.  And I don't know if there were any

15    at all, because I was at this line here, and there were none, I am sure of

16    that.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry.

18    But once again, these type of questions seems to me of a questionable

19    form.  The first question -- and I am talking now about the Ilidza

20    Brigade, The first question should be whether the witness was aware of any

21    snipers, and only then to ask him how many of them.  And the question

22    obviously is -- takes for granted that there were any snipers.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...were these leading

24    elements in the questioning are allowed.  On the other hand, Mr. Ierace  I

25    do not always know -- I do not know whether it -- let me express myself in

Page 13986

 1    a different way.

 2            Sometimes leading the witness too much could result in losing a

 3    lot of information on the basis of his knowledge.  So, although leading

 4    the witness is certainly not prohibited, I think in a system like ours, it

 5    might sometimes be of more assistance to give a better view on the basis

 6    of the knowledge of the witness rather than getting a certain answer from

 7    him.

 8            Please proceed.

 9            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10       Q.   Sir, you have told us that you had one mortar and that it was a

11    62 millimetre.  What other equipment did you have in your company, apart

12    from --

13       A.   60 millimetres.

14       Q.   What other equipment did you have in your company, apart from

15    small arms?

16       A.   None.  Infantry weapons and the 60.

17       Q.   When you returned in October 1993, what were your duties from then

18    until August of 1994?

19       A.   When I returned to the battalion after the severe wounding that I

20    had sustained, I started working in the rear, food and the like.

21       Q.   At any stage between October 1993 and August 1994, did you go to

22    the front line that you marked on the map?

23       A.   Not really.  Now and then.

24       Q.   How --

25       A.   Because everybody had his duties, his assignments.

Page 13987

 1       Q.   What were the duties that you had that required you to go to the

 2    front line in that period, that part of the front line?

 3       A.   Well, to go to that part of the front line, mostly was when food

 4    was being distributed, tins and the like.  And I also went because I was

 5    the first company commander, and I wanted to see my comrades at arms.

 6       Q.   Who took over control of the company after you in February 1993?

 7       A.   Jovo Sehovac.

 8       Q.   Did he stay there until at least August 1994?

 9       A.   Jovo you mean, yes, he did.

10       Q.   He remained in control of the company, in charge of the company,

11    until that time, at least?

12       A.   That's right.

13       Q.   The food that you distributed was prepared where?

14       A.   It was prepared in a kitchen at Ilidza, and then it was taken to

15    two certain locations where people came to fetch it and then to get to the

16    front line going -- using trenches and moving between houses and behind

17    the screens.

18       Q.   Now, coming back to the operations of your company between -- up

19    until February of 1993, did you come under fire from snipers in the

20    high-rise buildings opposite to you?

21       A.   Well, there was sniper fire and all kinds of fire, but I know that

22    we were exposed because we were below these buildings.  So we were exposed

23    to the fire.  But there was sniper fire, there was infantry fire.

24       Q.   So the answer is yes, you did come under sniper fire from those

25    buildings.  Is that correct?

Page 13988












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Page 13989

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And did your side, that is, did your armed forces return sniper

 3    fire with sniper fire, to your knowledge?

 4       A.   I just told you a moment ago, we had no snipers at all.  And we

 5    could not return sniper fire since we didn't have them.

 6       Q.   I am not asking about your company, sir.  I am asking whether, to

 7    your knowledge, sniper fire was returned --

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a

 9    belated objection, but I have to come back to the question:  Did your side

10    and so on return sniper fire with sniper fire?   The witness just said a

11    moment ago that they had no snipers.  Now, putting these words in his

12    mouth becomes a very nasty habit of the Prosecution.  Now, this is not

13    according to the Rules, and this is not right.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, page 23, line 22, says "I don't know.  I

15    really don't know.  I don't know if there were any at all because I was at

16    this line here and there were none.  I am sure of that."  That seems to be

17    an answer to your last question or do I --

18            MR. IERACE:  Well, Mr. President, I think there is a difference.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask the witness to take his headphones off.

20    Could you explain the difference to us.

21            MR. IERACE:  This question -- this question canvases whether this

22    witness, company commander of that part of the front line directly

23    opposite those high-rise buildings was aware of sniper fire being returned

24    with sniper fire from the forces of the SRK in that area.  It does not

25    re-activate the issue of whether there was snipers in his particular

Page 13990

 1    company.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  No, but, I think you asked more you asked more than

 3    just snipers in his particular company.  You asked about snipers in the

 4    Ilidza Brigade, not just in his company.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Earlier I did.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  "I don't know.  I really don't know.  I don't know if

 7    there was any at all."  So I understand this to be within the brigade and

 8    he was at the line there.  Let me ask one question to the witness.

 9            Could the witness please put the headphones again.

10            Mr. DP6, one of the earlier questions was about snipers in the --

11    or sniper activity in the Ilidza Brigade; you said you didn't know about

12    it.  Would you know about snipers in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?  So not

13    necessarily part of the brigade you were in with your company.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I really don't know about the

15    Sarajevo Romanija Corps having any snipers.  If I don't know about the

16    Ilidza Brigade, how could I know about the SRK?

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

18            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President --

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

20            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, perhaps I could speak first.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace asked first.

23            Please, Mr. Ierace.

24            MR. IERACE:  Mr. Present, I do wish to proceed this line of

25    questioning.  If you --

Page 13991

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  If you want to explain, then we rather ask the

 2    witness to put his earphones off again.

 3            MR. IERACE:  Or perhaps leave the courtroom.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I asked him yesterday whether he understood any

 5    English or French, and since these are the only languages used, unless you

 6    say there is another way of perceiving the --

 7            MR. IERACE:  I would prefer for my part, Mr. President --

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, would you please.  May I ask you to

 9    leave the courtroom just for one second.

10                          [The witness steps down]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace.

12            MR. IERACE:  Thank you Mr. President.  This -- the proceedings of

13    this morning, the objections by my learned colleague, raise a fundamental

14    issue in relation to the nature of cross-examination, in particular,

15    whether a cross-examiner is bound by the first answer of a witness on a

16    relevant topic.  In my respectful submission, the fact that the witness

17    said he knows nothing about it, does not in itself mean that a

18    cross-examiner should not ask further questions, if the cross-examiner --

19    if there is an issue between that answer and the case of the

20    cross-examiner.  Put simply, the Prosecution seeks to continue the line of

21    questioning amongst other reasons, in order to probe the credibility of

22    the witness on this issue.

23            In relation to that, Mr. President, the situation is that he was

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted] immediately adjacent to the Institute for Blind Children.

Page 13992

 1            I hasten to add that that period of command ended in February

 2    1993, and the three scheduled sniping incidents which occurred in a

 3    relatively short compass of that institute took place between March and

 4    June 1994 and, therefore, there is of course the possibility that snipers

 5    were operating from the institute in 1994, but not up until February

 6    1993.  Even so -- in my respectful submission, it is appropriate for the

 7    Prosecution to be permitted to pursue this line of questioning.  It defies

 8    common sense to accept at least on the strength of one answer, or even a

 9    few answers, this witness's contention that he was not aware whether the

10    SRK used snipers during this armed conflict, let alone, that there weren't

11    snipers in his brigade.

12            We know from the evidence of Richard Philipps, for instance, that

13    there was a sniper squad within the Ilijas Infantry Brigade, and that was

14    not challenged by the Defence, and that is the reason I say we know.  It

15    is not an issue.  We know, similarly, that there were snipers in the SRK

16    beyond that brigade using specialist rifles, and again we know that

17    because it was never challenged.

18            Mr. President, this is an important site of sniping and here we

19    have [redacted] up

20    until February 1993.  With the caveat, with the proviso, that it is not

21    the most relevant periods of time, even so, in my respectful submission,

22    it would be appropriate to pursue it.

23            MR PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, in French

24    there is a very beautiful expression meaning "I am speechless," really.

25    However, I will find some words to explain this.

Page 13993

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  I am a bit surprised that speechless, you surprise

 2    the Chamber.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am hoping to continue to

 4    surprise you, Mr. President, because if the Defence had tried this

 5    brilliant style, I have to admit, to immediately question one of your

 6    decisions, immediately we would have been told "this is not admitted"

 7    either in one Chamber or else where.

 8            What is happening here?  We have a witness who just told us -- I

 9    don't know, I haven't seen it, I don't know anything about it, as far as I

10    know, there weren't any.  Now, why?  At all costs we want to find out that

11    he should be placed, put in the place that he has to be interrogated

12    inquisition style when he is continuing to answer "I don't know."  Here is

13    the testimony of the witness.  Do you want him to tell you the opposite?

14    To contradict himself, to perjure himself, to tell you lies?  What do you

15    want?  What do you want him to say?  I think the Prosecution needs to

16    know, just like you, Mr. President, reminded us that this is a mixed

17    system whereby the interpretation of proof will be done by you, not by us,

18    but has to be respected what the witness said.

19            Now, not only that I am speechless, I don't know what to say, when

20    we were told that we never contested this, I have to remind you that

21    expert Philipps was that someone that we considered as being an OTP staff

22    member, that we did not think that his capacity as a witness was a good

23    one.  Of course, we contest the entire of his testimony.  We cannot say

24    that we admit something that we contest.  That is not in the Rules.

25    Therefore, the testimony of the witness is being very clear.

Page 13994












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Page 13995

 1            Now, having said on three separate occasions that he didn't know

 2    anything about it, it is completely abnormal that he continues to be asked

 3    leading, contentious questions:  Did you return sniper fire with sniper

 4    fire when you were attacked in this way?   I believe it is not

 5    admissible.  If it is admissible, then the Defence rights are being

 6    offended.  Thank you.

 7                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, the Chamber has confirmed that there are

 9    two issues.  One is receiving information from the witness; the second one

10    is testing reliability and credibility of the witness.  As far as

11    receiving information from the witness, he has testified that he doesn't

12    know anything about it.  I think you asked questions several times on this

13    issue, and the Chamber wonders what other questions could shed a further

14    light on the issue you are pursuing, that is, credibility, reliability.

15    If you could demonstrate that by your next question, but we have to limit

16    that.  I mean, even in the stage of credibility, reliability, we have to

17    stop somewhere and we cannot ask the witness to deny seven, eight, nine,

18    ten times.

19            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, if it assists, I don't propose to do

20    that.  That would be a complete waste of time.  That is not the way to

21    conduct cross-examination.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  What kind of questions would you then have in mind?

23            MR. IERACE:  Well, yesterday, the witness said that it wasn't

24    possible to say Ante Babica Street from the street of the blind.

25    Hopefully, I will demonstrate to him you that that evidence is incorrect.

Page 13996

 1    An area that I propose to further explore is what was upstairs in the

 2    school for the blind.  The witness told us yesterday one floor; in fact,

 3    it is ground plus two.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  So we do not concentrate any more on sniper.  One of

 5    the problems the Chamber had with your line of questioning as well is that

 6    the term "sniper" was used again where there seems, at least there seems

 7    to be some disagreement on what exactly a sniper is.

 8            MR. IERACE:  And indeed my next few questions will break away from

 9    that, in relation to that term.

10                          [Trial Chamber confers]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  I just

13    found my words again.  I really don't see the connection between whether

14    we have a view on such a street from such an institute with the question

15    that raised my objection, "Did you return sniper fire with sniper fire?"

16    There is no connection whatsoever.  I don't think the Prosecution has

17    understood the purpose of the cross-examination in the two systems.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  The line just indicated by the Prosecution is an

19    admissible line.  So, Mr. Ierace, we know exactly to what questions the

20    witness has answered "no," and there is no need to have that repeated

21    several times.  But I cannot imagine that there are issues like the ones

22    you mentioned you would like to raise.  Yes.

23            MR. IERACE:  To be perfectly clear on this, Mr. President, I also

24    propose to ask him, well, [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 13997

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher -- unless there is anything else you

 4    would like to say.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Just a minor correction.  I said earlier that the

 6    relevant scheduled incidents were in the first half of 1994.  Incident 13

 7    was on the 4th October, 1993, but that that doesn't change the argument I

 8    advance.  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into

10    the courtroom, please.  Yes, thank you.

11                          [The witness entered court]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  We will continue, Mr. DP6.

13            Mr. Ierace.

14            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15       Q.   Sir, when you had a sniper or snipers operating from those

16    high-rise buildings opposite your part of the front line, what did you do

17    in order to neutralise them?

18       A.   We would open fire towards these parts approximately from where

19    the fire came from.

20       Q.   And would that be with semi-automatic rifles, as well as automatic

21    rifles, as well as machine-guns?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Surely there were occasions when what you really needed was

24    someone who had particular skill at using a rifle in order to neutralise a

25    sniper on the other side.  Did that situation not arise --

Page 13998

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.  Mr. President,

 2    the question is now being asked --

 3            MR. IERACE:  Perhaps the witness could take his headphones off --

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Excuse me?  If you speak all at the same time, I

 5    cannot hear you.

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is an objection.

 7            MR. IERACE:  And I ask he remove his headphones

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I

10    would like to apologise for the Prosecution, because I reacted very

11    rapidly, precisely so that the witness is protected.  But currently what

12    is happening here is that a question is again being asked about nothing

13    else but the existence of snipers.  But that are now being defined by a

14    person who got has special qualities.  Now, this is going around the pot

15    really.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  This is an admissible question, so the objection is

17    denied.  It is also reflects the line of questioning indicated by the

18    Prosecution in the absence of the witness.

19            Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20            MR. IERACE:

21       Q.   Sir, you have told us that in order to neutralise snipers in those

22    high-rise buildings, you would return fire.  Were there not times -- were

23    there not situations which called for one of your subordinates to --

24    excuse me.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  The accused would like to confer with counsel.

Page 13999

 1                          [Defence counsel and accused confers]

 2            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, would it assist if we took the break a

 3    little earlier.

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the observation

 5    that General Galic formulated --

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] take his

 7    headphones off again.  Would you take them off.  Thank you.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems that

 9    the observation that I was given by General Galic is the following:  It

10    seems that this witness himself would never have used the term "sniper,"

11    and I don't have the recollection.  I am just --

12            MR. IERACE:  I object.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I just finish, please,

14    before objecting.

15            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, it is simply not appropriate for the

16    Defence to make submissions in these terms.  If my learned colleague has

17    an objection to the question, then he should make it, but not relate what

18    has just been told by his client in a general way about the general issue.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. --

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to finish my

21    sentence, Mr. President.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...confer with your

23    client, and you may submit whatever you want to this Chamber as a Defence,

24    but it is the counsel that represent the accused.  And so therefore,

25    references to what is the source and what is the basis of your objection

Page 14000












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Page 14001

 1    should not link -- should not create an indirect way of addressing the

 2    Chamber.  But, therefore, I think that your --

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But could we ask the

 4    Prosecution to tell us the reference, precise reference, page and line,

 5    that the witness said that there was sniper fire that was coming from a

 6    high-rise flats, high-rise buildings.

 7                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 9            MR. IERACE:  I can give that reference Mr. President, page 33,

10    line 16 question asked by me:  "When you had a sniper, were snipers

11    operating from those high-rise buildings opposite of that part of your

12    front line, what did you do in order to neutralise them."  Answer:  "We

13    would open fire towards these parts approximately from where the fire came

14    from."

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Present, I noticed that you conferred with your

16    client, and I also note that you wanted to object against something.  If

17    you would please keep the two strictly apart.  Make your objection.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, with pleasure.  What I

19    think I can tell, I believe this is an interpretation problem because it

20    seems that the same time General Galic and Ms. Pilipovic heard the witness

21    say that he did not know, as far as he was concerned, whether it was one

22    or the other.  And it seems this cannot be found in the transcript,

23    although both the General and Ms. Pilipovic can confirm this while I was

24    listening to another channel.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness please put his headphones on again.

Page 14002

 1            Did we understand your well, Mr. DP6, that sniper fire came from

 2    high-rise buildings at the other side of the confrontation line, or is

 3    this a wrong understanding of what you said?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the other side, fire was open,

 5    both sniper and infantry fire.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is an answer to my question.

 7            Please proceed -- no.  We will -- no.  I would like to you to know

 8    even for the last two minutes.  Please proceed.

 9            MR. IERACE:  Thank you.  I will.

10       Q.   All right.  Now, when you received sniper fire from those

11    high-rise buildings, [redacted],

12   [redacted]-- I withdraw that --

13    someone with the skill of a marksman to take them out, to eliminate them?

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Why don't we first -- yes, make your objection,

16    Mr. Piletta-Zanin but let me be quite clear.  Questions are put to a

17    witness in order to get an answer.  Questions are not put to a witness in

18    order to give an opportunity on each question to object.  Make your

19    objection and think it over what I just said during the next break.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But Mr. --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do it.  Yes, I

23    will do it.  The formulation of the objection is because it is purely

24    speculative because we are being told --

25            MR. IERACE:  Headphones for the witness, please, Mr. President.

Page 14003

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could you please take off your headphones.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is purely speculative.

 3    The witness is being asked whether if he wished to have someone, why is he

 4    not asked did call someone, then it would be a lot clearer.  Is it:  Would

 5    you have wished to have had someone?  This is purely speculative.  This is

 6    talking about a desire he may have had.

 7            Now, the Defence is always asked to be precise, now we are asking

 8    the other side to be accurate.  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I did understand the question of -- in such a

10    way whether the witness ever had felt the need to find someone, and that

11    is a perfectly acceptable interpretation of this question.  But I will put

12    it to the witness in these terms, and that will be the last question

13    before the break.

14            Mr. DP6 could you -- when you received sniper fire from the other

15    side of the line, have you ever felt the need to find someone with special

16    skills to respond to that fire or to eliminate the sniper?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you:  Anyone would

18    have wanted to eliminate the sniper, but what can I tell you?  I couldn't

19    have wished because when the fire started, I wouldn't know whether this

20    was sniper fire or this was some other infantry fire, fire from infantry

21    weapons.  You just wish that you could eliminate fire.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then again my question, whether sniper or

23    infantry fire, did you ever try to find someone or to eliminate those who

24    were at the source of the fire?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when the fire was opened,

Page 14004

 1    first of all, the attempt would be to eliminate fire from the front line.

 2    If that is not possible, we would call the battalion command and then we

 3    would say on this part this fire being opened.  And we would ask for

 4    assistance so that the fire would be then eliminated in any way.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  If you ask for that assistance, what then happens?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then we would be sent either

 7    soldiers as reinforcement to come and deal with it, or they would start to

 8    make sure that a shell would fall or something like that.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will adjourn until 11.00.

10                          --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m

11                          --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 30 seconds only

13    to tell you that Mr. Aleksandar Momirov, who is our case manager, will

14    also be present at the hearing.  Thank you.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, then please proceed.

16            Welcome into the courtroom, Mr. Momirov.  May I first ask you to

17    spell your name so that  there can be no confusion.

18            MR. MOMIROV:  M-o-m-i-r-o-v.

19            Yes, thank you.  Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

20            MR. IERACE:

21       Q.   Sir, you told us before the break that when you wanted to

22    eliminate fire from the front line, whether it was sniper fire or some

23    other form of fire, you would call the battalion command and ask for

24    assistance.  Firstly, when you called the battalion command, would you use

25    a field telephone?

Page 14005

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And you explained that the assistants would either be soldiers as

 3    reinforcement or they would start to make sure that a shell would fall or

 4    something like that.  Do you mean that sometimes the assistance was

 5    artillery fire against the source of fire?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Whereabouts were the artillery units that would operate opposite

 8    your part of the front line up until February 1993?

 9       A.   Mortars were down next to the Theological Faculty.

10       Q.   Were there also mortars at the old JNA barracks at that period of

11    time?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Only at the Theological Faculty as far as the area of Nedzarici.

14    Is that correct?

15       A.   It is.

16       Q.   What size were those mortars or what sizes?

17       A.   The 60, the 82, and the 120.

18       Q.   All right.  And what --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Merely one part of the

21    witness's answer has not been interpreted into French.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you look at the screen, in English it is

23    complete.  Yes.

24            Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

25            MR. IERACE:  All right.

Page 14006

 1       Q.   You have told us that the mortars were at the Theological

 2    Faculty.  Did you sometimes receive the assistance of artillery shells

 3    rather than mortars?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Did you sometimes receive the assistance of tanks coming into

 6    Nedzarici to assist you?

 7       A.   No.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am really sorry, but I would

10    like to be very precise.  You are talking about the tank and I think that

11    in French it -- the French interpretation was "guns."  Now, could we

12    please be very precise here.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I am not an expert but as far as I understand tanks

14    are usually translated by chars.  Could this be confirmed by the French --

15    no, of course, I should -- yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  Please proceed,

16    Mr. Ierace.

17            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I wonder if it would assist if we can

18    have the same rules of translation issues as applied during the

19    Prosecution case, that a note be made of them so as to minimise the amount

20    of interruptions of cross-examination.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since you noticed the

22    difference, you have the original language and you have the French.  So

23    would you use the small yellow papers if there is any need that the

24    translation be adjusted, or at least if you have any submissions to be

25    made in respect of translation, at least if no confusion could arise.

Page 14007

 1            Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

 2            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Might the witness be shown

 3    Exhibit P3279T.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  It is a series of six photographs.

 5            MR. IERACE:  ERN ending in three small "a."

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Are you going to -- it is a series of six.  Do you

 7    have one -- yes, you have the ERN number mentioned of the photograph you

 8    wish on the ELMO.  Yes.

 9            MR. IERACE:

10       Q.   Sir, in the photograph before you, do you see the Theological

11    Institute otherwise known sometimes as the School of Theology?

12       A.   Yes, I do.

13       Q.   Please point to it with the pointer.

14       A.   [Indicates]

15            MR. IERACE:  Witness indicates a white building of which at least

16    three floors can be seen about two-thirds up the photograph from the

17    bottom.  Thank you.  Might that be returned.

18       Q.   Now, when you contacted the battalion headquarters, I take it that

19    is the headquarters that you placed on the map, that you indicated on the

20    map yesterday.  Is that correct?

21       A.   It is.

22       Q.   I take it there were a number of battalions in the Ilijas

23    Brigade.  What was the name of that battalion?  Was it the 1st Battalion,

24    the 2nd Battalion, or what?

25       A.   The 1st Battalion.

Page 14008

 1       Q.   Now, yesterday you told us the various battalion commanders.  Who

 2    was the battalion commander as of the 13th of July, 1994?

 3       A.   When I returned, then it was Svetozar Guzina, after I returned

 4    from the spa.  And then onward it was  Svetozar Guzina.

 5       Q.   Did you know him personally?

 6       A.   I met him when I returned from the spa.

 7       Q.   Was that the first time you had met him?

 8       A.   That was the first time.

 9       Q.   Do you know whether he had previously been in the JNA?

10       A.   No, he wasn't -- I mean, he did his military service as everybody

11    else, but he wasn't an active JNA member.

12       Q.   Do you know if he is still alive?

13       A.   He is.

14       Q.   Do you know where he lives?  I am not asking you for the address,

15    but simply if you know where he lives.  Yes or no.

16       A.   I don't.

17       Q.   If you had to locate him, do you know people who may know?

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.  And I do not see

21    the relevance.  It looks to me a little bit like a fishing expedition.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, should the headphones be taken off?

23            MR. IERACE:  Yes.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please take your headphones off, yes, thank

25    you.

Page 14009

 1            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, the relevance is an exhibit in the

 2    Prosecution case that was tendered through [redacted].

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I will make that redaction.  At the same time, the

11    knowledge of the witness on the whereabouts was the relevance for that?

12            MR. IERACE:  The relevance for that is to establish whether the

13    Defence wished to do it so that they could contact him if they wish to

14    refute that if you wish to do so.  It is P2759, confidential exhibit.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence

16    does not intend to communicate with that person, rest assured.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Would that take away the --

18            MR. IERACE:  Yes, it would.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then please proceed.  But this was about the

20    address.  So the objection is of, at least, the whereabouts and whether

21    the witness knows anything about that.  But of course the -- well, not of

22    course, but the Prosecution has demonstrated sufficiently the relevance of

23    the other part of the question, so please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

24            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25       Q.   Now, you told us that sometimes the battalion would provide you

Page 14010

 1    with reinforcements.  What skills did those reinforcements have when you

 2    were concerned about -- when you wanted to eliminate sniper and other fire

 3    from the other side?

 4       A.   We had no training and the skill amounted to what we learned in

 5    the war, and reinforcements were sent over from other front lines, that is

 6    from other companies -- I mean, human reinforcements, troop

 7    reinforcements.

 8       Q.   The mortar placements at the Theological Institute, did you ever

 9    see them?

10       A.   I did.

11       Q.   When was the first time approximately that you saw them, and the

12    last time that you saw them, approximately?

13       A.   Approximately the first time I saw them, sometime in June, and the

14    last time - I don't remember - could have been sometime before I was

15    wounded.  I really -- I really don't remember when the last time was.

16       Q.   Could you tell us whether the last time you saw them was sometime

17    after October 1993?

18       A.   They were down there where they had always been.

19       Q.   And were they in exactly the same positions whenever you saw them?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Now, sir the front line around Nedzarici was such that it could be

22    described perhaps as a spur.  In other words, Nedzarici was surrounded on

23    three sides by positions of the ABiH.  Would you regard that as an

24    accurate description?

25       A.   Yes.  We could only get out -- we had only one exit to one side,

Page 14011

 1    and that was via Kasindolska Street.

 2       Q.   To the south of Nedzarici was a similar protrusion for the enemy,

 3    that is, the area of Dobrinja.  Is that correct?  In other words, there

 4    were -- Dobrinja was an area of ABiH territory which was surrounded on

 5    three sides by the SRK, would you agree?

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.  I object,

 7    Mr. President.  I do not know -- perhaps the witness could remove his

 8    headset.

 9            I object to the question because it is imprecise.  We know that

10    there is an exact number for the Dobrinja and we know about it.  The

11    certain areas were surrounded by the so-called army of Sarajevo, but other

12    parts of Sarajevo -- of Dobrinja were controlled by different troops.

13    Now, the question is not precise.  It introduces confusion and, therefore,

14    in compliance with the Rules, the Prosecution should make the question

15    precise, should word it precisely.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ierace, if you are talking about Dobrinja,

17    the evidence is until now that Dobrinja was split, that parts of it were

18    under the control.  So if -- may I take it - and perhaps you could be more

19    precise - that you are speaking about certain parts of Dobrinja, and I

20    would have another question myself.  You are placing Dobrinja south of

21    Nedzarici which is in my maps not evident.  I would say it was rather east

22    or perhaps -- or am I wrong?  What I find on my maps just south of the

23    area known to me as Nedzarici is what is what we call the Airport

24    Settlement --

25            MR. IERACE:  Yes, I understand, Mr. President.

Page 14012

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  And the parts you are referring to are rather to the

 2    east or to the --

 3            MR. IERACE:  South-east.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 5            MR. IERACE:

 6       Q.   Sir, there were areas of Dobrinja

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, the witness does not have the --

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, could you please -- yes.  You know

 9    already perfectly well how to do it, Mr. DP6.  Thank you for your

10    cooperation.  Please proceed.

11            MR. IERACE:

12       Q.   Sir, a large part of the settlement of Dobrinja controlled by the

13    ABiH.  Is that correct?

14       A.   It is.

15       Q.   And the part that was controlled by the ABiH was surrounded on

16    three sides by - if not almost on four sides - forces of the SRK.  Is that

17    correct?

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Before I give you an opportunity to object, I

20    hear from my place with my earphones on that you communicate in your own

21    language which is understandable for the witness.  That is not allowed in

22    this courtroom.  If you want to confer, no problem.  One of the reasons

23    might be that if you have got your headphones on, that you have more

24    difficulties in hearing each other, therefore, you use a louder voice.

25    But it is not admissible to speak -- especially not if even with my

Page 14013

 1    limited knowledge of the B/C/S language, I could hear what your view on

 2    that question would be, and it is up to the witness to tell us.

 3            If there is any objection, then may I ask you to take off your

 4    earphones again.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I withdraw the question.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.  I note the frequently --

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I merely would like to bring

 8    you my apologies.  Yes, perhaps, we are too loud but we shall pay

 9    attention not to do that again.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

11            MR. IERACE:  Well, does that mean that my learned colleague does

12    not object to the question?

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you --

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought that

15    Mr. Ierace was about to rephrase his question --

16            MR. IERACE:  I will withdraw it.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- or was it a

18    misunderstanding?

19            MR. IERACE:

20       Q.   The settlement of Dobrinja --

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Ierace.

22            MR. IERACE:  Yes, thank you.

23       Q.   Sir, the settlement of Dobrinja was, I think you have agreed

24    already, in part controlled by the ABiH, as far as the armed conflict was

25    concerned.  Is that correct?

Page 14014

 1       A.   It is.

 2       Q.   Are you familiar with Ante Babica Street?

 3       A.   Ante Babica, it is in Mojmilo, yes.

 4       Q.   And that was one of the -- indeed, that was the main road which

 5    connected the ABiH controlled part of Dobrinja to the parts of the city

 6    that were controlled by the ABiH.  Is that correct?

 7       A.   Would you repeat it.

 8       Q.   Yes.  Essentially, that street was the main connection road

 9    between Dobrinja and the city in terms of the ABiH territories.  Do you

10    agree with that?

11       A.   All I know is that it was towards Mojmilo where the Ante Babica

12    Street extended out, I don't know.  I know that it went to Mojmilo -- not

13    Mojmilo, but Vojnicko Polje and you know how the road takes you on then.

14    But Mojmilo is one thing, and Vojnicko is another.  I am not really very

15    familiar with that part of Dobrinja.

16       Q.   If I understand your evidence, are you telling us that you do not

17    know whether Ante Babica was a road within the control of the ABiH during

18    the war which was a main connection between the city and the territories

19    they controlled in Dobrinja?  Are you saying you do not know that?

20       A.   I know that Ante Babica was controlled by the BH army, but I don't

21    know where is the beginning and where is the end of that street.  I don't

22    know how long is that street.  Because a moment ago you mentioned

23    Dobrinja.  You said that Ante Babica started in Dobrinja and then that it

24    went on to, what is it, Vojnicko Polje.

25       Q.   All right.  Let me rephrase the question.

Page 14015

 1            Are you aware that if you wished to travel in those years to the

 2    ABiH held part of Dobrinja, that one from the city that the road -- that

 3    road I mentioned, Ante Babica, could be used in order to make that --

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must object

 5    here.  On the one hand, it is highly hypothetical question and cannot be

 6    answered because this road was controlled by the Bosnian army.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  If you wanted to go from the city to the ABiH

 8    controlled part of the Dobrinja, would you have to take Ante Babica to get

 9    there?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I couldn't do that.  I

11    couldn't --

12            JUDGE ORIE:  For someone who would be on the other side of the

13    confrontation line, would he have to take that road to --

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To get to Dobrinja, he wouldn't have

15    to, no.  He wouldn't have to take that route because there was another

16    route via Srakino Selo.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Which one was that?  Can you point to that on the

18    map.  Could perhaps the map can be placed on the ELMO again.  Can you

19    indicate what other --

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Lukavicka Cesta, from here,

21    and one could get to the city this way, or one could go to the tram stop

22    which is Ante Babica Street.  But Lukavicka Cesta -- Lukavicka Cesta, that

23    is what this street is called up to this point.  From here to this place

24    and it takes you through Nedzarici.  But you could also get into the city

25    below Mojmilo, that is, take Lukavicka Cesta, then take around here, I

Page 14016

 1    think all this way, and then you get into the city.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  So if you would go to the city, you would either turn

 3    right on to Ante Babica or continue until the tram stop?  Is that how I

 4    understand your -- there were two ways --

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, two.  This is Lukavicka and

 6    then you get do Ante Babica until you reach the tram stop or rather the

 7    tram tracks.  But you can go below Mojmilo hill and then via Srakino Selo,

 8    Olimpijska, and so on.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please continue, Mr. Ierace.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I want to be

11    very precise so that we avoid any future doubts.  The witness said in his

12    language, I think he said that he thought that he believed that the street

13    could take you as far as a particular point, but he wasn't quite sure.

14    That is, he was not at all sure whether the street ended there, and I want

15    the transcript to reflect that.  I believe that is what I heard in his

16    language.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

18            MR. IERACE:  Thank you Mr. President.

19       Q.   Now, having regard to the features of the map that you have just

20    shown us, whether you came down Ante Babica Street or whether you came

21    down Salida Hadzic [sic] Street, ultimately you ended up bottom of Mojmilo

22    hill into area of Lukavicka Cesta.  Is that correct?

23       A.   You would end up in Lukavicka Cesta, that's where you would get

24    to.  Because I think it goes here -- I don't know.  I think it goes here

25    towards Nedzarici and there towards Lukavicka.  Ante Babica Street, this

Page 14017

 1    street goes straight towards the tram station.

 2       Q.   All right.  Now, please stop there for a moment.  The point is

 3    this:  That the part of the front line that you controlled was immediately

 4    opposite a tactically important supply route for the ABiH.  Do you agree

 5    with that?

 6       A.   In which part?

 7       Q.   On the map in front of you, yesterday you marked the part of the

 8    front line that was under control of your forces, that's the continuous

 9    black line.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Opposite that line, not immediately opposite, but a little further

12    back, you have Ante Babica Street and you also have the street that runs

13    along the bottom of Mojmilo, Salida Hadjic [sic].  And they were important

14    supply routes for the ABiH into Dobrinja.  Do you agree with that?

15       A.   Well, yes.  They had to go through here, yes, to get to Dobrinja.

16       Q.   And at the time that you were in command, you appreciated that

17    fact, didn't you?  In other words, you knew the significance of the

18    territory not far from your front line.  Is that correct?

19       A.   Could you repeat the question, please.

20       Q.   Yes, I will repeat the question.

21            At the time that you were in command, you knew the significance of

22    the territory, that is, the territory of the ABiH not far from the front

23    line controlled by your forces under your command, didn't you?

24       A.   I knew that they used that route to get to Dobrinja, to Dobrinja

25    V, in fact, to the whole of Dobrinja, which was under their control.

Page 14018

 1       Q.   Yes.

 2       A.   But this street was blocked.

 3       Q.   Which street?

 4       A.   It wasn't possible to see the street in that part, this part

 5    here.  This part you couldn't see.  There were screens and containers.  It

 6    wasn't possible to see in this part here.

 7       Q.   Now, for the purpose of the record, you indicate the portion of

 8    Ante Babica between Salida Hadjica and Lukavicka Cesta.  Is that correct?

 9    You say that that part wasn't visible?

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to a

13    different street --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  I will take care of it.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Please point at the part of Ante Babica Street, that

17    part which is at the right-hand side we find the word "Mojmilo," near to a

18    street Olimpijska, and on the left-hand side, whether there is a red cross

19    and a rectangular structure in the map.

20            When the witness earlier pointed at a place where the tram stop

21    would be, he was pointing to the crossroad immediately below where the

22    words "Bitu Menka" appears on the map.  When the witness indicated another

23    road that could be used to go to Dobrinja, he was pointing at Salida

24    Hadjica Street, which is parallel to what is called on the map Boulevard

25    Mese Selimovica.

Page 14019

 1            Please proceed.

 2            MR. IERACE:  Thank you for that, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

 4            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence

 5    apologises for interrupting during the questions of my learned colleague,

 6    but we would just like to know considering the examination-in-chief, since

 7    it lasted less than two hours we think, we would like to ask how long our

 8    learned colleague is going to go on so that we have another five witnesses

 9    who would like to resolve this issue.  And the Defence would like to

10    agree, if that is all right, in order not to lose time.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  The Defence stressed again and again that I should

12    account "net" time instead of "total" time.  Of course I have been

13    wondering whether I should draw attention of the Prosecution to the time

14    limits.  Usually I would do that, but if I have to count net time, I would

15    have great difficulties.  That is not to say that I do not ask the

16    Prosecution to proceed and see whether they conclude as soon as possible,

17    but my earlier remarks might shed some light as to the -- how this

18    examination of this witness developed.

19            And, therefore, I expect an indication soon now from Mr. Ierace to

20    hear how much time he would still need, and to see whether we can proceed

21    as efficiently and as quickly as possible.  And this is for both parties.

22            Please proceed.

23            MR. IERACE:

24       Q.   Now, it follows that any part of the territory under your personal

25    command in that period --

Page 14020

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there was a

 4    question that was addressed to the Prosecution.  We asked him to find out

 5    how much more time they needed, and the Prosecution didn't answer.  And we

 6    would like to know.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked the Prosecution to give an

 8    indication soon as to how much time they would need.  The reason why I did

 9    so is that if you would like to have this kind of information, you do not

10    ask for it in the middle of a question, but you wait until a suitable

11    moment where you change subject or whatever.  So I invited the

12    Prosecution -- let me just find my words -- "I expect an indication soon

13    now from Mr. Ierace to hear how much time he would still need."  So I left

14    it up to him to find a suitable moment.

15            So apart from listening to your own questions, perhaps you could

16    also listen to the -- what I asked from the Prosecution.  This is a waste

17    of time, the way we proceed.  I am not talking about the subject.  And the

18    Chamber will consider what to do in order to make this better, but, first

19    of all, urges the parties to cooperate in that respect.

20            Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

21            MR. IERACE:

22       Q.   Therefore, any part of that route that could be seen from the area

23    under your control was particularly observed by your forces.  Is that

24    correct?

25       A.   This part of the road -- I said it a moment ago.  This part of the

Page 14021

 1    road was protected by screens and containers, and you were not able to

 2    see --

 3       Q.   I am not asking you for the parts you couldn't see.  And at this

 4    stage, I am not asking you for the parts that you could see.  I am simply

 5    putting to you that it was of great significance to you as the commander

 6    to keep a watchful eye on whatever parts you could see.  Is that correct?

 7       A.   That's correct.  But this was protected.  Every part of the road

 8    that could possibly be visible from the area of Nedzarici was protected in

 9    that part.

10       Q.   Yes.  Now, obviously the reason that you would want to observe

11    that route is if the opportunity presented itself, you could hit any

12    legitimate targets that might go between the city and Dobrinja, the area

13    held by the ABiH.  Is that correct?

14       A.   We tried to have as little traffic as possible between Dobrinja

15    and the city --

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because of the BH army and their

18    attacks.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I really apologise, but I

21    think that this type of question precisely is not on, because the witness

22    already answered because the interest of seeing the road, the interest of

23    seeing a road -- sorry.  Could you please.

24            Thank you.  Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.

25            Now, the interest of seeing, having a view of the route is also

Page 14022

 1    being protected oneself in terms if there is an attack.  So --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course this question is

 3    leading, and you could have -- I could have asked whether the importance

 4    of the road was to count the density of traffic for future route

 5    planning.  You could -- it is the question of the Prosecution.  It has got

 6    nothing to do with the one and only logical explanation, it is just the

 7    suggestion put by the Prosecution in this question to the witness, and

 8    that is perfectly admissible.

 9            Of course, you could have asked in cross-examination [sic] to ask

10    whether the importance of the road was for whatever other reason, but this

11    is the question of the Prosecution.  It is leading the witness, and it is

12    intentionally leading the witness and there is no reason not to admit that

13    question.  So may I ask you and not for the first time today to --

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  -- to be reticent and, of course, this is not to deny

16    you the right to object, of course not.

17            Please continue, Mr. Ierace.

18            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Might that exhibit be

19    withdrawn for the moment and the witness shown P327900, which is a bundle

20    of photographs, in particular photograph ending with -- photograph ending

21    with the numbers "08."

22            Just while that is being done, a question for the witness.

23       Q.   If you did have a place that gave you a view of the -- yes -- a

24    view of the -- those routes, you would have taken advantage of it in terms

25    of insuring that you could fire from that position.  Is that correct?  If

Page 14023

 1    there had been such a place, and I appreciate you say there was not such a

 2    place.

 3       A.   Of course.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Now, look at the photograph in front of you.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Could the ELMO be panned back so we can all see.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence

 7    apologises.  I believe that that question was a hypothetical one asked by

 8    my learned colleague, unless they are admissible.

 9                          [Trial Chamber confers]

10            JUDGE ORIE:  If the question could be put in a non-hypothetical

11    way, although hypothetical questions sometimes -- oh, yes.  The question

12    has already been answered.  But --

13            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, could I just say, you haven't heard me

14    on this.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I apologise for that.

16            MR. IERACE:  I appreciate the answer has been given.  For future

17    reference, in my respectful submission, there is nothing wrong about a

18    hypothetical question in those circumstances.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it depends on the circumstances.  That is the

20    issue, I would agree with you.  Sometimes hypothetical questions should

21    not be admissible, sometimes they would be.  Perhaps at a later stage, we

22    could perhaps once discussed with the parties a bit more about what

23    questions are admissible and what are not.  Since the question has been

24    answered, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

25            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 14024

 1       Q.   Now, does this photograph appear to be taken from the Institute

 2    for Blind Children looking towards those routes that we talked about a few

 3    minutes ago, and demonstrating that those routes could not be seen in

 4    relation to these buildings in this photograph?

 5       A.   This could not have been taken from the Institute for Blind

 6    Children.  This could only have been taken from the part of Lukavicka up,

 7    upon -- up.

 8       Q.   What do you mean by "Lukavicka up"?

 9       A.   What I meant to say is that it could not have -- the photograph

10    could not have been taken from the Institute for Blind Children.  The

11    Institute for Blind Children is on the Aleja Branka Bujica.

12       Q.   I suggest to you that, in fact, this is the view which you have,

13    that is, one part of the view that you have from one of the Institute for

14    Blind Children buildings.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

16            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the

17    witness was already asked twice and answered.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Under the circumstances, in view of the

19    evidence, the -- Mr. Ierace may proceed.  The objection is denied.

20            MR. IERACE:

21       Q.   I suggest to you that in fact this photograph, that is, the view

22    which you can see in the photograph, indicates that it was taken from one

23    of the buildings in the Institute for Blind Children.  What do you say to

24    that?

25       A.   I say it is not.

Page 14025

 1       Q.   All right.  Are you able to suggest, assuming it was taken from a

 2    building, where it was taken from?

 3       A.   I don't know.  I can't...

 4            MR. IERACE:  Might the witness -- I withdraw that.  Before the

 5    photograph is taken away.  My apologies.

 6       Q.   The building which appears in the foreground, perhaps you could

 7    point to it.

 8       A.   [Indicates]

 9       Q.   No.  Bring the pointer further down.

10       A.   [Indicates]

11       Q.   Lower the pointer by about 3 centimetres.

12       A.   [Indicates]

13       Q.   Thank you.  A bit further down.  A bit forth down, please.  Could

14    you please bring the pointer a little further down.  Thank you.

15            Do you recognise that building?

16       A.   I can't remember.

17       Q.   Before the war began, did you live in Nedzarici -- and I am not

18    asking you whereabouts -- but did you live in Nedzarici?  Yes or no.

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   For how many years did you live there before the war?

21       A.   Before the war, from 1970.

22       Q. [redacted]

23    have indicated on the map.  You tell us that you don't recognise that

24    building?

25       A.   I can't remember this part here.  This building, this building

Page 14026

 1    here and this part I remember.  But this, this, I can't remember.  I can't

 2    remember what it is.  It is a car park or something.  I don't know what it

 3    is.

 4            MR. IERACE:  For the purpose of the record, the witness has

 5    indicated all the high-rise buildings as buildings he recommends, but not

 6    the construction which appears in the middle left of the photograph.

 7    Might that photograph be taken away but shown photograph with ERN ending

 8    with number "11."

 9            Perhaps when you return, Madam Usher, you could take the earlier

10    photograph with you, so that we can have both on the ELMO, if required.  I

11    am sorry -- yes, thank you.  At this stage, please place photograph 11 on

12    the ELMO, ending in number "11."  No, that is not the photograph.  No.  I

13    will show you the photograph.  It might help.  Would you find that one.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  What number is that, please, Mr. Ierace?  This

15    exhibit has only two photographs.

16            MR. IERACE:  My apologies.  Excuse me.  That is P327900.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Would it be double "N" perhaps?  No, it might not

18    be.  That is another series.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  P3279 --

20            MR. IERACE:  Double zero --

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Double zero has two photographs only?

22            MR. IERACE:  Perhaps if you could hold them up.  It could save

23    some time.  It is neither of those.  Perhaps we could try double N.  Yes,

24    double N, my apologies.  So P3279NN, which should be a bundle of

25    photographs.

Page 14027

 1            THE REGISTRAR:  A set of two photographs.

 2            MR. IERACE:  Would you hold them up so the witness can't see

 3    them.  Yes, the top one.  And please place that on the ELMO.

 4       Q.   Now, in this photograph, do you the same building in the

 5    foreground?

 6       A.   [Indicates].

 7       Q.   Yes, you are now pointing to it.  And having regard to the view,

 8    do you now recognise that both of these photographs are, in fact, taken

 9    from one of the buildings of the Institute for Blind Children?  In other

10    words, this photograph is looking slightly to the left of the other

11    photograph taken from the same place.

12       A.   If you please, this is Lukavicka Cesta here.  Is that correct?

13    Let me have a look.  This here these are student hostels over there.  This

14    is the Lukavicka Cesta, and it goes up here, and here is the intersection

15    up to here.  And the Institute for Blind Children, the Institute for Blind

16    Children would be about here.  And you cannot photograph --

17            MR. IERACE:  Would the ELMO please pan back so we can see all of

18    the photograph and in particular to where the witness just pointed.

19       Q.   Now, would you point again to where you said the Institute for

20    Blind Children is.  I think you pointed to the left of the photograph.

21       A.   These student hostel buildings and here would be the Institute for

22    Blind Children, all the way there.

23       Q.   All right.

24            MR. IERACE:  I would like to witness to be shown another

25    photograph.  P3279OA.

Page 14028

 1       Q.   Now, first of all, please point to the student hostel, I think you

 2    called it.

 3       A.   [Indicates]

 4       Q.   The hostels, yes, the student hostels, please point to those

 5    buildings.

 6       A.   [Indicates]

 7       Q.   Was there a second student hostel building?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Can you point to that as well.

10       A.   Here it is.

11       Q.   Now, in this photograph, do you see Ante Babica Street?

12       A.   Ante Babica Street.

13       Q.   Are you having trouble in finding --

14       A.   [Indicates]

15            MR. IERACE:  The witness indicates the road that runs parallel to

16    the bottom of the photograph and is immediately above the bottom of the

17    photograph.

18       Q.   Now, do you see --

19       A.   Now, wait a moment.  This ought to be Ante Babica.

20       Q.   Yes.  All right, now, do you see in the top left-hand corner the

21    buildings of the Institute for Blind Children?

22       A.   Here they are.

23       Q.   Yes.  Now, do you see that two of the buildings appear to face

24    towards the camera, that is, the two on the right, whereas the one on the

25    left appears to face away to the left of the photograph, so that it is at

Page 14029

 1    an angle to the camera.  I am talking about the buildings of the Institute

 2    for Blind Children.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Would you come to the building on the far left, that is, the

 5    Institute for Blind Children building.

 6       A.   [Indicates]

 7       Q.   Thank you.  And so as we look at that building, it is at an angle

 8    to the camera, do you agree?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Now, yesterday we saw that building consisted of ground floor and

11    then two rows of windows above the ground floor.  Do you remember that?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Now, I suggest to you --

14       A.   Yes, I can see two.

15       Q.   I suggest to you that the two photographs I showed you a few

16    minutes ago were taken from the top level of that building towards the

17    corner closest to the camera in this photograph.  I am not saying that you

18    know that.  What I am saying to you is that the view which those

19    photographs showed is what you would expect to see from that angle of the

20    top floor of that building.

21       A.   Sorry.  Could I have the photograph again.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I merely want to say that the

23    witness has answered, I believe, three times this question when it comes

24    to taking photographs from that building.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  That last question was not -- could we just -- it is

Page 14030

 1    not clear exactly to the Chamber.  Could you please take your headphones

 2    off.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask something, please?

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know well where Jugobanka was and

 6    I know well where that building is.  And nobody can talk me out of what I

 7    do know.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  No one is talking you out of anything at all.  Would

 9    you please take your headphones off for just a second.  Yes.  Thank you.

10            Mr. Ierace, the -- you are asking the witness at this moment to

11    identify the place from where a photograph was taken.  Is his awareness of

12    specifically that place, is there any necessity to establish this, because

13    it creates a lot of confusion, if you might have noticed.  And I wonder

14    whether it is the spot in the city that creates confusion, because it is

15    not the first time, especially on these photographs, we had huge

16    confusion.

17            MR. IERACE:  Yes.  Would it assist you, Mr. President, if I was to

18    explain in the absence of the witness and perhaps in private session very

19    quickly where all this is going.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I -- could I ask the witness to leave the

21    courtroom for one second.

22                          [The witness stands down]

23            JUDGE ORIE:  No -- yes, you have your earphones on.  Could you

24    please follow the usher for a couple of minutes to leave the courtroom.

25    Yes.  We will turn into closed session.

Page 14031

 1                          [Closed session]












13  Pages 14031-14035 – redacted – closed session













Page 14036

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3                          --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

 4                          --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10                          [Open session]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, if you would escort the witness into the

12    courtroom, we will turn into open session again.  We are in open session.

13                          [The witness entered court]

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. DP6, you had to wait a little bit longer.  I hope

15    you got some copy.  Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

16            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Excuse me.

17       Q.   Sir, before we -- before you left the courtroom, I had suggested

18    to you that the two photographs I showed you earlier, that is, the view in

19    those photographs was consistent with them being taken from the building

20    of the Institute for Blind Children, which appeared at the top of

21    aerial-type photograph.  And you asked us if you could see again those

22    first two photographs.

23            MR. IERACE:  Might the witness be shown both the aerial

24    photograph, which is P3279OA, and also the two earlier photographs, which

25    are P327900, ERN ending in "08," and  P3279NN, with an ERN ending in

Page 14037

 1    number "11."  So that is three photographs altogether.

 2       Q.   When you receive those photographs, please look at them and

 3    consider your answer.  As you consider your answer, I will point out the

 4    feature to you.  In one of the three photographs, you can see a drainpipe

 5    in the top left-hand corner.  Do you see that?

 6            MR. IERACE:  For the record, that is number "11." I will refer to

 7    it that way.

 8       Q.   That is a drainpipe for taking water off a roof.  I think you are

 9    holding that photograph at the moment and you are pointing to the

10    drainpipe.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

12            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have the

13    photograph on the ELMO, please, so that we can follow.

14            MR. IERACE:

15       Q.   Please place that photograph on the ELMO.  Thank you.  And I think

16    you may conclude from that that the photograph was taken looking sideways

17    along a wall and from an opening immediately under the roof.  You might

18    look again at photograph P3279OA, that is the aerial-type photograph, and

19    consider what I said to you earlier, that the view in the other two

20    photographs is consistent with them being taken from the upper level of

21    the white building on the left.

22       A.   This photograph --

23            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the microphone be brought closer to the

24    witness, please.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph here, had it been

Page 14038

 1    taken from the home of blind children and it had been taken in the

 2    direction of Lukavicka Cesta, then you would first see the shopping centre

 3    and you wouldn't be able to see the student hostel.

 4            MR. IERACE:

 5       Q.   All right.  Would you please --

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  May I just intervene.  Because the witness seems to

 7    understand your question, as if the photograph was taken in the direction

 8    of Lukavicka Cesta.  Perhaps could you first clarify that, because there

 9    seems to be some misunderstanding in that respect.

10            MR. IERACE:  I intended to do that, Mr. President, by taking the

11    witness to -- that's all right -- taking the witness to Exhibit D1760,

12    that is the map.  That might be the easiest way to clarify it.  Please

13    place that map on the ELMO.  All right.

14       Q.   Now, would you please indicate again on the map in front of you

15    the position of those three buildings of the Institute for Blind Children.

16       A.   It is this here.

17            MR. IERACE:  The witness indicates --

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And here, sorry.  May I say

19    something now?

20            MR. IERACE:

21       Q.   Please do.

22       A.   This is the home for blind children.  This is where the shopping

23    centre is.  Those buildings are here.  In this part, these buildings could

24    have been photographed from somewhere here because the students' hostel,

25    if you can see the students' hostel too, or one wing of the hostel -- one

Page 14039

 1    wing of the hostel.

 2       Q.   All right.  First of all --

 3            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Sorry, Mr. Ierace.  Could I just ask you,

 4    because we have been talking about the institute and the shopping centre,

 5    et cetera.  Maybe we should mark.

 6            MR. IERACE:  Yes, certainly.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then we would need other pictures because

 8    these are exhibits already admitted into evidence.  So we would have to --

 9            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  I am talking of the map.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  On the map, yes, of course.

11            MR. IERACE:  All right.

12       Q.   Would you please point again to the buildings which are the

13    Institute for Blind Children, whereabouts on the map would those three

14    buildings be.

15       A.   Here.

16       Q.   Please take the blue pen and circle the position of the three

17    buildings.

18       A.   [Marks]

19       Q.   Thank you.  Now, above that, above the blue circle, put the

20    letters "IBC."

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   Thank you.  Now, take the pointer, not the pen, and point to where

23    the shopping centre was.

24       A.   The shopping centre is here.

25       Q.   All right.  Now, tell us what the shopping centre looked like

Page 14040

 1    during the conflict.  How many storeys was it?

 2       A.   No storeys at all.  The shopping centre -- the shopping centre had

 3    a ground floor and a roof above it, because it was ten years ago.

 4       Q.   Okay.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Now, perhaps since the usher has the photographs --

 6    please wait -- in her hand, at this stage on the top of the photograph,

 7    could you put photograph 11.  You have only got the one photograph.  I

 8    think it is on the table.  Thank you.

 9       Q.   Sir, that white building in the foreground, could you please point

10    to it with the pointer.  No.  No.

11       A.   Yes, the students' hostel.

12       Q.   No, stop.  Bring your pointer to the right, more to the right.

13    Thank you.  A little lower.  Bring the pointer down.  Thank you.

14            Is that building the shopping centre?  If you take your hand away,

15    you can see all of the building.  Thank you.

16       A.   This seems to be a part of the shopping centre.

17       Q.   All right.  Now, please, if the court usher could remove the

18    photograph.  And on the map, sir, with a cross, please mark the position

19    of the shopping centre.

20       A.   [Marks]

21       Q.   All right.  Now, alongside the cross in small letters, could you

22    write the initials "SC."

23       A.   [Marks]

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            Now, could you point to the two buildings which are the student

Page 14041

 1    hostels.  Don't mark anything yet, just point to them.

 2       A.   This is one wing of the hostels.

 3       Q.   Yes, and can you see the other wing?

 4       A.   I can see all three of them here on the map, on this map.

 5       Q.   Were there two separate buildings which were the students'

 6    hostels, each building having three wings each?

 7       A.   Well, that is what I am saying.  Wings, I can see all three wings

 8    of the hostels on the map -- excuse me.  If this here is the Institute for

 9    Blind Children and over there the student hostels and this here is

10    shopping centre, then what kind of a photograph could you take to cover

11    all these places?  And I remember very well this building here, this

12    building.

13       Q.   Which building?

14       A.   That's right.  Yes, this building and that building.

15            MR. IERACE:  Stop a minute.  We can't see.  Can you place the

16    photograph on the ELMO.  Sorry.  Yes.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. DP6, if you want to point at something,

18    first ask the usher to put that photograph on the -- yes.

19            MR. IERACE:

20       Q.   All right.  Now, a minute ago you said, "I remember very well this

21    building here."  Please point to the building that you had in mind.

22       A.   It is this building here and this building there.  This building

23    was before in front of Lukavicka Cesta, this here.  This is alongside

24    Lukavicka Cesta here.  And in this passage here, it was the Jugobanka,

25    bank building.  Here is Lukavicka Cesta, here is the shopping centre, and

Page 14042

 1    here this didn't exist at the time.

 2       Q.   Please stop for a minute.

 3            MR. IERACE:  I don't know that we can make much sense of that for

 4    the transcript, but essentially the witness pointed first to a high-rise

 5    building with a whitish wall facing the camera above the building he

 6    earlier indicated may be the shopping centre.  And he then indicated some

 7    high-rise buildings above the red roof.  Thank you.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the -- this is the shopping

 9    centre.

10            MR. IERACE:

11       Q.   Please wait for the question.  Would you now please go -- I am

12    sorry, you just indicated the building you said was the shopping centre.

13    Could you place the pointer back on that.

14       A.   [Indicates].

15       Q.   Thank you.

16            MR. IERACE:  Witness indicates a building with a brown roof

17    immediately to the right of the photograph of the roof which is coloured

18    black, red, and orange in stripes.

19            Please, court usher if you could remove that photograph.

20       Q.   Sir, now on the map, can you circle the two student hostels, with

21    your blue pen.

22       A.   [Indicates]

23       Q.   Above them, would you please write the letters "SC" -- I am sorry

24    "SH."  On the road, if you just write "SH."

25       A.   [Marks]

Page 14043

 1       Q.   All right.  Now, please put down your pen and continue to look at

 2    the map.  I want you to imagine, looking at the map, that you are standing

 3    in the position of the buildings of the Institute of Blind Children and

 4    facing towards the student hostel.  In that position, you would have a

 5    road curving in front of you and to the right of the road, you would see

 6    the shop centre.  Do you agree with that?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   All right.  You would also have on your immediate right --

 9       A.   But at the same time --

10       Q.   Please wait for the question.  On your immediate right, you would

11    have a road going off to the right.  Do you understand what I am putting

12    to you?

13       A.   It is Aleja Branka Bujica which goes towards the students'

14    hostels, is that what you mean?

15       Q.   If you are looking toward the student hostel, that road would

16    appear going in the direction of the student hostel.  I am now talking

17    about the road which would be to your immediate right going towards the

18    south-east.  Please point to that road, from the student hostel.

19       A.   [Indicates].

20       Q.   Yes.  And the name of that road is?  What is the name of that

21    road?

22       A.   Lukavicka Cesta.

23       Q.   All right.  Excuse me.  Now, I want you to look at photograph

24    number 11 alongside the map.  Position the photograph so you can move your

25    eyes from the photograph to the map.

Page 14044

 1            Now, hypothetically accept from me for the moment that the

 2    photographer is standing in the position of the Institute for the Blind

 3    looking to the right of the student hostels.  Do you understand what I am

 4    putting to you?  Do you understand what I have just said?  Please don't

 5    comment yet.

 6            So the photographer is standing in the --

 7       A.   I didn't understand.

 8       Q.   All right.  You did not understand.

 9            Imagine that the photographer at the time he took this photograph

10    was standing in the position of the Institute for Blind Children, in

11    particular, in the position of the building closest to the road.  Do you

12    understand what I am putting to you?  In other words, just --

13       A.   Yes, yes.

14       Q.   You would expect that in the photograph on the left-hand side of

15    the photograph you would see part of the student -- at least part of the

16    student hostel complex, correct, if he was looking in that direction?  You

17    would expect that, wouldn't you?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   All right.  Look at the photograph.  Do you see to the left of the

20    photograph part of the student hostel complex?

21       A.   Yes, yes, these are student hostels.

22       Q.   All right.  Look again at the map, please.  You would expect to

23    the right you would see Lukavicka Cesta and not so far to the right, you

24    would see the shopping complex, do you agree?  Looking at the map, that is

25    what you would expect?

Page 14045

 1       A.   From the Institute for Blind Children, if you took the photograph,

 2    if you photographed this part and these buildings, because I can see these

 3    buildings next to the student hostel.  These buildings next to -- next to

 4    the student hostel.

 5       Q.   Please wait.  Can the ELMO pan back so we can see the photograph.

 6    Further.  Could you please repeat what you just said so that we can all

 7    now see the photograph.

 8       A.   This is the student hostel.  These are the buildings down there by

 9    the tram station.

10       Q.   Stop there, please.  Go back to the map.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am going to

12    make an objection because the witness wanted to say something and -- the

13    witness wanted to say what one could see according to him, and he was

14    interrupted by Mr. Ierace, who has been leading him in an unacceptable

15    manner.

16            MR. IERACE:  I simply wish the witness to indicate on the map

17    where the tram station is because he hasn't done that yet.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That might be your next question.

19            When you were interrupted, Mr. DP6 -- yes.  When you were

20    interrupted, what would you add?  You told us about the buildings --

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say -- I wanted to say

22    that in my opinion, it is impossible -- it is impossible that if then the

23    closest thing would be to the photographer would be the -- if you are

24    taking from the institute -- you would be -- for blind children, you would

25    be looking at the shopping centre and that would be the closest.  But if I

Page 14046

 1    am looking at it now, that is not so.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.

 3            MR. IERACE:

 4       Q.   All right.  Now, on the map, can you point to the position of the

 5    tram station that you mentioned a few minutes ago.

 6       A.   Here you are.  This way here, this part here.

 7       Q.   All right.  Now, what is the name of that road?

 8       A.   This road?

 9       Q.   Yes, what is its name?

10       A.   It says here Bolevar Mese Selimovica.  This road goes through the

11    city and next to this road is the tram station, you just cross the

12    intersection and you get to the tram section.  The tram is going from

13    Bascarsija to Ilidza.

14       Q.   Okay, now on that road we see a line in the middle which I think

15    we can take as represent the tram line.  Alongside the name

16    "Oslobodjenje," we see a circle.  Does that circle -- is the position of

17    that circle where there was a turning mechanism for the tram, to turn them

18    around?  Where they stop?

19       A.   This here where it says Bitu Menka and perhaps 50 metres from Bitu

20    Menka, that's where you turn the tram around and not where the circle is

21    by the Oslobodjenje building.

22       Q.   All right.

23       A.   In the direction of the student hostels, that is where it should

24    be, about here.  This is where the tram turns around, not over there.

25       Q.   Now, are you saying that you would expect to see in the photograph

Page 14047

 1    in front of you that tram station?  Is that what you are saying?

 2       A.   From -- if you look from this angle where it was photographed, you

 3    cannot see the tram stop, the tram station.  What I am saying, you cannot

 4    see the tram station from there, because the tram station is behind the

 5    student hostels.

 6       Q.   Please indicate on the photograph again.  Please give your answer

 7    again.

 8       A.   The tram station is behind the student hostels.

 9       Q.   So why do you say you would expect to see the tram station, if it

10    is behind the students' hostels?

11       A.   No, I didn't say that I would expect to see a tram station, but I

12    was just explaining to you that there is a tram station over there.

13       Q.   Let me ask you this:  You have told us that the Institute for

14    Blind Children at the time that you were -- I will rephrase that -- up

15    until February 1993, at least, was used on its upper floor as an

16    observation point.  Is that correct?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And I take it that you went there from time to time to see what

19    you could observe?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Did you ever see the tram station from there?

22       A.   You cannot see the tram station from there.  You can just see by

23    the Oslobodjenje building where the tram goes.  You can see the track,

24    tram track, but you cannot see the station.  It is Oslobodjenje building

25    which is preventing you from seeing tram station from tram number five.

Page 14048

 1       Q.   Now, if you can imagine standing in the observation level of the

 2    Institute for Blind Children, from there you could see going off to your

 3    right Lukavicka Cesta.  Is that correct?  Pardon my pronunciation.

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   In front of you, you could see the shopping centre, correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And in the distance to your left you could see the two student

 8    hostel buildings, correct?

 9       A.   On the left-hand side, I would have the student hostels on my

10    left.

11       Q.   On the photograph in front of you, consistent with that, you have

12    identified part of the student hostel on your left, correct?

13       A.   You can see one part, yes.

14       Q.   The student hostel -- I am sorry -- the shopping centre in front

15    of you, correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And going off to the right, can you see and identify Lukavicka

18    Cesta?

19       A.   This is Lukavicka Cesta.

20       Q.   No.  I suggest to you that the other road is Lukavicka Cesta.

21    Please point to the road going off to the right.

22       A.   This here.

23       Q.   Yes.  I suggest to you that that is Lukavicka Cesta.

24       A.   I don't think it is.

25       Q.   In any event, do you agree that wherever this photograph is taken

Page 14049

 1    from is a position that, during the war, was on your side of the

 2    confrontation line?

 3       A.   I think it was, yes.

 4       Q.   All right.  Now, do you agree that in this photograph -- I

 5    withdraw that.

 6            What have you referred to as the name of the road that ran from

 7    the Institute for Blind Children down to Ante Babica Street?  What do you

 8    know that road's name to be?

 9       A.   From the Institute for Blind Children until Ante Babica Street,

10    that was Aleja Branka Bujica.

11       Q.   Aleja Branka Bujica?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   In this photograph, I suggest to you that in the distance towards

14    the left we can see the intersection of Aleja Branka Bujica and Ante

15    Babica immediately above the roof which is painted in black, red, and

16    orange.  Can you see that intersection?

17       A.   Here?

18       Q.   Yes.  Would you like a magnifying glass?  I have one here.

19       A.   As much as I think, it seems to me that this was taken from

20    Lukavicka Cesta.  It was photographed from Lukavicka Cesta, not from the

21    Institute for the Blind.  Because here is the shopping centre.

22       Q.   Sir, that is not the question.  I am asking you -- I am putting to

23    you that in the photograph above the roof is an intersection, and I am

24    suggesting to you it is the intersection of Lukavicka Cesta --

25       A.   I can see the street here.  I can see the street here.

Page 14050

 1       Q.   I ask the witness --

 2       A.   But perhaps from some position from Lukavicka Cesta the photograph

 3    could have been taken.

 4            MR. IERACE:  I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P3279NN, with an

 5    ERN ending in numbers "09.

 6       Q.   I want you to accept from me that this photograph is taken from

 7    the same place as the earlier photograph looking over the black, red, and

 8    orange roof, and in the direction of that same intersection.

 9            Do you now recognise that intersection?

10       A.   This is the Aleja here.  Yes.  The same as on the other

11    photograph, except that this is -- the other one was further back.  This

12    was closer.  That is that street and that is Ante Babica Street.

13       Q.   Thank you.

14            Now, I think you have agreed that from wherever this photograph

15    was taken, it was somewhere on the territory that was controlled by the

16    SRK, correct?

17       A.   Yes, that's right.  I said that before, that it was taken from the

18    territory of the SRK.

19       Q.   And --

20       A.   Because on the Lukavicka Cesta -- from the Lukavicka Cesta was the

21    SRK territory.

22       Q.   All right.  Now, more particularly, having regard to your

23    identification of the shopping centre in photograph ending with the number

24    11.

25            MR. IERACE:  And perhaps that could be placed back on the ELMO.

Page 14051

 1       Q.   The photograph appears to be taken from somewhere in the area of

 2    the front line controlled by you and your fellow troops, that's correct,

 3    isn't it?

 4       A.   Yes, most probably.  Because if it was taken -- if the photograph

 5    was taken from Lukavicka Cesta.

 6       Q.   Now, assuming for the moment that the photograph was taken from a

 7    building which existed between the beginning of the conflict and February

 8    1993, do you accept that indeed from buildings on your part of the front

 9    line you could see Ante Babica Street?

10       A.   The street of Ante Babica, it was possible to see it from the

11    buildings that we had, but until they put containers here and other

12    things, some screens and so on.

13       Q.   All right.  Do I understand you --

14       A.   But here you couldn't see anything when the war started, when they

15    put barricades -- I don't mean barricades, containers.  They put them

16    there for their own protection, for their personal protection, so that

17    they can move, so that people can move there.

18       Q.   Do I understand you to be agreeing that if not from the Institute

19    for Blind Children, then certainly from other building on your part of the

20    front line, you had a view of Ante Babica Street, except for the

21    containers that were put up and other barricades?

22       A.   Well, you could have seen the Ante Babica Street, that is this

23    intersection, from some parts.  I don't know which ones.  I don't know

24    where this was taken from.  But according to the picture, I can see that

25    it was possible.  And I know that during the war, there were containers

Page 14052

 1    here.

 2       Q.   Now, we don't have much time, so if you can sufficiently answer

 3    with a yes or no, if you can, please do so.

 4            Now, you have told us that containers and barricades were erected

 5    on that intersection.  When did that happen?

 6       A.   Perhaps it was a lapsus when I said barricades.  I meant

 7    containers and protection of sorts.  This was set up sometime -- I am not

 8    quite sure of the date -- but it was perhaps May, perhaps even before May

 9    in this part.

10       Q.   Could you point again?

11       A.   [Indicates]

12       Q.   All right.  Do you mean May 1992?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now, in spite of the containers or barriers -- I think the word

15    you used was containers and --

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it is

17    very important for the transcript that we indicate where was it that the

18    witness indicated as having been the presence of containers, exactly on

19    this part which was visible in the Serb territory.

20            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, number one, we can't mark the

21    photograph; secondly, that is an issue that could have been done in

22    re-examination.  But having said that, I am happy to, in the interest of

23    saving time, to do it.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I take it that the witness was referring to

25    an intersection appearing on 3279NN, last two digits of the photo "11."

Page 14053

 1    In the left middle of the photograph which he testified was the same as on

 2    P3279NN, last two digits, "09," and there is only one intersection visible

 3    on that last photograph.

 4            MR. IERACE:  Yes.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6            MR. IERACE:  Thank you.

 7       Q.   Did you and your fellow troops do your best to hit legitimate

 8    military targets crossing that intersection, in spite of the containers?

 9       A.   Would you please repeat the question.

10       Q.   I will rephrase it to make it easier.  You have told us that there

11    were some protective measures across that intersection, correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And I assume that the purpose of those was to stop you and your

14    fellow troops --

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- I am objecting to the -- in

18    relation to the answer that was given by the witness.  He -- according to

19    him, his instruction was to return fire, that is what his testimony was

20    earlier.

21            MR. IERACE:  [Previous translation continues] the presence of

22    the witness.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  There was nothing in the question that would exclude

24    return fire, whatever kind of fire.  It was just, apart from that, the

25    testimony was broader.  Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

Page 14054

 1            MR. IERACE:

 2       Q.   Now, when you say that "there were protective -- protection that

 3    was erected," did you assume that to be at least visual protection for

 4    ABiH forces from observation by you and your fellow troops so that you

 5    couldn't see them, in other words?

 6       A.   The protection was set up so that people can pass down the street

 7    because it was war.  And civilians passed there as well as the military.

 8       Q.   In spite of the protective measures, I suggest to you that fire

 9    continued into that intersection from your positions, the positions of you

10    and your fellow troops.

11       A.   In the position where I was, personally, on the Lukavicka Cesta,

12    you could not see this intersection.  Because I was on the Lukavicka

13    Cesta, you could only see it from the Aleja Branka Bujica where the

14    Institute for Blind Children is.

15       Q.   Will you please go back to the map P3279A.

16            Sir, do you say that the Institute for Blind Children buildings

17    were not part of the front line in your company?

18       A.   Yes, that is what I said before.  Only Lukavicka Cesta was part of

19    my section of the front line.  And you asked me about the Institute for

20    the Blind, and the School of Theology, and the Centre for Blind People,

21    and my answers were to those questions.

22       Q.   Which company of your battalion had responsibility for those

23    buildings?

24       A.   Which buildings?

25       Q.   The Institute for Blind Children.

Page 14055

 1       A.   I think it was the second company -- I am not quite sure.  It was

 2    called the second company.

 3       Q.   Who was the commander of the second company from September of 1992

 4    until August 1994?

 5       A.   Why, I don't know who was up to August 1994.  I know that in the

 6    beginning it was Ljubo Cvijetic, he was the company commander, and there

 7    was one Slavko Orasanin until I was wounded.  But then I don't know

 8    exactly who it was until the 24th.  From the 19th of February, 1993, until

 9    August 1994, I don't know exactly who commanded the company.

10       Q.   Is it therefore the case that you don't know whether there were

11    snipers at any time between September 1992 and February 1993 operating

12    from the Institute for Blind Children, since those buildings were outside

13    the company where you operated?

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

16            MR. IERACE:  Earphones off.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you take your earphones off, Mr. DP6.

18            Yes.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I think

20    that we have come back again and again to the question of snipers.  The

21    witness has clearly indicated his position.  And we were on a huge circle

22    and now tell him were there snipers in his company, whereas he has very

23    clearly testified on several occasions.  If we want to respect the

24    testimony, then let us do that, but I think that some rules ought to be

25    respected.  Thank you.

Page 14056

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has repeatedly testified that he doesn't

 2    know anything about it, Mr. Ierace, so I don't think that this is of great

 3    use to continue.  Please move to your next subject.  And I indicated to

 4    you that you were expected to give us a time limit.  And I know that the

 5    issue you are then dealing with took quite a long time, to put it in mild

 6    terms.  Do you think you can finish in 10 minute approximately?

 7            MR. IERACE:  No, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we have to consider whether more time will be

 9    granted to you.  Perhaps we will stop in a couple of minutes to see what

10    to do with that situation.

11            Perhaps you finish the -- if there is any new question you would

12    like to put to the witness now, you could do it; otherwise, perhaps we

13    should discuss what the actual situation is.

14            MR. IERACE:  In view of the ruling Mr. President, I don't seek to

15    ask any further questions of issue at this stage, and I would certainly

16    seek clearance before I did in the future.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18                          [Trial Chamber confers]

19            JUDGE ORIE:  If the usher could please escort the witness out of

20    the courtroom.  But I might ask him to return to tell him what is going to

21    help.  So would you please leave the courtroom again for a couple of

22    minutes, but stay standby.  Yes.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24                          [The witness stands down]

25            JUDGE ORIE:  I would now like to turn into closed session.

Page 14057

 1                          [Closed session]












13  Pages 14057-14062 – redacted – closed session













Page 14063

 1  [redacted]

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  On the court schedule I saw that there has been no

 4    hearing planned for Friday next week.  That was a bit of a surprise,

 5    because when the -- I am not talking about tomorrow, but I am talking

 6    about Friday next week.  Because this has -- was not a decision of the

 7    Chamber.

 8            So, therefore, we still have to consider whether we will not sit

 9    next week Friday.  Tomorrow, we will not sit because it is court

10    maintenance.  But next week Friday, that is a totally different matter.

11    That is just to connect -- or at least Thursday is an UN holiday and for

12    that reason, the Chambers were asked whether they would agree not to sit

13    on Friday.  Such agreement has not been given.  So we will still consider

14    that.  The parties, therefore, could not rely specifically on the court

15    calendar.

16            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, are you likely to reach a decision on

17    that by this weekend?

18            JUDGE ORIE:  We will reach a decision by this weekend.  I would

19    say even today.  Yes.

20            MR. IERACE:  Thank you.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are then

23    going to have a serious problem for the Defence, because Ms. Pilipovic

24    relied on this calendar.  She already organised her trip to Belgrade.  And

25    your humble servant intended to benefit from this break and organise for

Page 14064

 1    himself a whole series of appointments in Geneva.  I am just warning you

 2    that this can cause problems.  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  It is good that you inform us.  I was a bit surprised

 4    as well by the court calendar.  I usually take it that apart from formal

 5    UN holidays and other court maintenance, that we will sit.  And of course

 6    we will take into consideration that the court calendar might have

 7    confused you.

 8            Mr. DP6, unfortunately we could not conclude your testimony

 9    today.  It will take presumably some time again not tomorrow, but early on

10    Monday, because tomorrow this Chamber will not sit.  It is very

11    unfortunate that you have to stay for another few days, but would you be

12    able to stay until next Monday?  And I guarantee you that by next Monday

13    it will be finished.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can stay because I have told

15    people at the enterprise I work for that I perhaps stay -- Well, I thought

16    I had finished on Friday and I thought I would be back on Monday, but I

17    don't think it will be any difficulty.  I will call them today.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I feel very sorry for you that it takes so much

19    time, and we highly appreciate that you can stay until next Monday.  May I

20    remind you not to speak to anyone the testimony you gave in this court.  I

21    hope to see you again Monday morning.

22            We will adjourn until Monday morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

23                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24                          1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

25                          the 21st day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.