Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15024

1 Tuesday, 5 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Mr. Stamp, the Chamber highly appreciates that you give us some

10 extra time in the morning to read the correspondence of the last day, but

11 the Chamber -- I know that this clock is not the only one in this

12 building. But when all the clocks were certainly past 9.00, we -- you

13 still gave us the opportunity to read letters instead of starting with the

14 trial.

15 MR. STAMP: I do apologise.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked to address the

17 Chamber for three minutes. Please do so.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. President. The reason for which the Defence has decided to address

20 you is because Defence doesn't really know what is coming from the

21 accusation, from the Prosecution. We no longer know whether the

22 Prosecution -- we don't know where they are going any more. We don't know

23 anything about this. All we know is that ties have been cut and we really

24 don't see whether the Prosecution is going to continue in this manner. In

25 other terms, Mr. President, yesterday we had a serious problem. We lost a

Page 15025

1 lot of time because the Prosecution told us, with regard to two incidents,

2 incident number 11 and incident number 2, I think, that the Defence didn't

3 do what it was obliged to do. It didn't inform the Prosecution that we

4 were going to question the witness with regard to these specific events.

5 Since yesterday, Mr. Stamp has told me that he doesn't think this

6 information hasn't been provided to him, but I'm told that this isn't the

7 case. I don't have the documents in front of me because I was basing

8 myself on the principle that this matter had been dealt with.

9 It seems the Prosecution refuses to take into consideration

10 elements that have been communicated to them very clearly in detail and we

11 do not appreciate the fact that something was staged last night. It was

12 something pulled out of a hat. It was a trick. And we don't appreciate

13 the fact that we can claim quite coolly that certain elements weren't

14 provided whereas they were. There was a mistake, a small mistake made by

15 the Defence. Since we didn't officially inform about incident 11, but

16 elements 11 and 12 [as interpreted] were proceed these -- these two

17 elements proceed from the same point, from the same firing point. And,

18 Mr. President, we cannot accept that we should waste precious time in

19 order to deal with problems that are not real problems. It is not

20 possible for us to continue in this manner and we would appreciate if this

21 Trial Chamber could sanction such an attitude on the part of the

22 Prosecution. Thank you.

23 For the sake of the transcript, naturally, the points concerned

24 are 11 and 2.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have a specific sanction in mind already or

Page 15026

1 would you --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, not at all, but

3 I quite simply don't think that it would be useful. When I say

4 "sanctions" I am not asking for anything. But I don't think that this

5 should happen again and I don't think it is useful for the Prosecution to

6 affirm that we haven't done our work whereas this is not true. So

7 unfortunately this is not the Defence's problem. I think that the Defence

8 has access to all the three languages that are spoken here and perhaps

9 even two others.

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... consider the

11 matter. Apart from that, is the Defence ready to continue the examination

12 of the witness? Yes, then Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness

13 into the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

16 understand?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

19 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony yesterday.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 WITNESS: WITNESS DP11 [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, we will very briefly go back to the

Page 15027

1 testimony that you were giving, but, first of all, I apologise. Good day.

2 A. Thank you.

3 Q. We are going to move back to your previous testimony and I am

4 specifically interested in the question of stray bullets, on the issue of

5 stray bullets. You spoke about stray bullets with regard to the wall of

6 the cemetery which was made of concrete. In the zone that we are

7 interested in, the one you were positioned in, were there any other

8 elements that could have similarly caused what we call ricochets?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you be more specific and tell us what you are referring to,

11 please.

12 A. Well, first of all, the monuments in the Jewish cemetery, concrete

13 houses, high buildings, et cetera, et cetera.

14 Q. Thank you. The buildings that you are referring to, were they

15 numerous, were there not that many of them? Could you tell us what the

16 concentration of such objects was?

17 A. Yes. On our side, the lines of the cemetery, of the Jewish

18 cemetery, there were houses with about five to ten metres between them.

19 And this was the case on their side, too.

20 Q. Witness, was there fighting that was quite intense on several

21 occasions, was there serious fighting?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, to the best of your knowledge, on the basis of your

24 experience, where did the bullets that ricochetted, where did they go, or

25 rather where could they go?

Page 15028

1 A. In various directions.

2 Q. When you say "in various directions" is it possible that these

3 bullets could also go off into -- into the town and stray into an urban

4 area?

5 A. Yes, if they were there.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know if certain weapons such

7 as, for example, weapons from which bursts of fire can be fired, do you

8 know whether one of their characteristics is to have a trajectory which

9 makes it somehow drift away the more the object is distant from the point

10 of departure?

11 A. Yes. All anti-tank and ordinary machine-guns and automatic rifles

12 are of this kind.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell us, could you remind us what

14 the official range of a light machine-gun is -- I will withdraw that

15 question. I will withdraw that question. I apologise.

16 Did you have personal knowledge of military persons or civilians

17 who were wounded as a result of ricochets?

18 A. Yes, but on our side.

19 Q. Very well. How can you be certain that this was the result of a

20 ricochet?

21 A. Well, the wounds were on the whole, slight, and not very deep.

22 Direct hits would usually go through the body.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know whether your unit had relations

24 with representatives of the United Nations?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15029












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Page 15030

1 Q. Do you know whether these people, these representatives ever

2 protested with someone from your unit for any reason whatsoever?

3 A. Not in our unit, but it was suggested to us that they would come

4 to visit us, the French Battalion from UNPROFOR would come, which was on

5 the other side by the Muslims, and the Russian Battalion which arrived

6 later, which was on our side of the Jewish cemetery. They know this very

7 well.

8 Q. Thank you. But as far as you know, these people, regardless of

9 their nationality and I am referring to the UN personnel, did they ever

10 launch a protest with you of any kind with regard to the laws of war? And

11 I mean this in the widest possible sense.

12 A. They didn't lodge a protest with us, but very often they would

13 relay to Muslim units --

14 Q. I apologise. I am not talking about the other side. I am only

15 talking about protests that may have been lodged with you. Thank you very

16 much, Witness. And this is my last question, this is purely hypothetical,

17 please take this into account the fact that it's just a hypothesis, if one

18 of your comrades in arms committed an act that at the time might be

19 considered to be a serious violation or even a crime, what would have

20 happened, how would the army, how would the unit have reacted to such an

21 act? What sort of sanctions would have been implemented? What do you

22 know about this?

23 A. Well, if that had happened, a report would have been given to the

24 commander, and then it would have been followed up. But this didn't

25 happen. This is all I know. It never happened during the four years of

Page 15031

1 the war.

2 Q. Were you personally informed of the fact that if you violated --

3 and this is still a hypothesis -- if your military obligations were

4 violated, would you be suggested to --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please not lead.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

7 Q. Witness, with regard to this issue concerning sanctions, was

8 information provided to the lines, were the men provided with such

9 information?

10 A. Yes, through the commanders of detachments, platoons and

11 companies.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Your evidence, if I have understood you

13 correctly, is that the military hierarchy provided you with all these

14 instructions and all the men -- right up to the men, is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

17 Mr. President. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Is the Prosecution

19 ready to cross-examine the witness, Mr. Stamp?

20 MR. STAMP: Yes. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp:

23 Q. You were involved in the 3rd Battalion from the early part of 1992

24 until 1995 when it was disbanded; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15032

1 Q. And is it your evidence that during that time you did not know or

2 hear of any of the members of your battalion being prosecuted for any

3 offences?

4 A. I didn't know of any such cases.

5 Q. And according to you, you fought with all five companies of your

6 battalion?

7 A. Yes. We went to provide assistance when the fighting was intense

8 and when quite a few people were wounded in the 2nd, 3rd and 5th Company,

9 we had to go and assist them. So the rest of us were cut off because we

10 were the prominent position as the 3rd Company. We were in a more

11 prominent position than the 5th and 4th companies, not to mention the 1st

12 and 2nd companies. I can provide you with examples.

13 Q. I will ask about that later. Thank you very much. Now, you spoke

14 a lot yesterday about sniping at positions held by your battalion. Did

15 your battalion have snipers?

16 A. Yes, one. Each company has to have a sniper as per establishment.

17 An ordinary man, though, he is not a sportsman or a real shooter.

18 Unfortunately, he is not alive.

19 Q. As far as you are concerned in your battalion there was only five

20 snipers at any one time, one for each company?

21 A. Yes. Not at any given moment. Later on when the units were

22 established, at the beginning there was nothing. We didn't have any

23 weapons. We had hunting rifles.

24 Q. A simple answer to the question, a yes or no would do. Did your

25 brigade have a sniping platoon in the Grbavica area?

Page 15033

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did your brigade employ snipers in the high buildings on the -- in

3 the part of Grbavica that it controlled?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Have you ever seen a sniper's rifle?

6 A. Yes, captured from the Muslims -- a Pam rifle, an anti-aircraft

7 gun, an M-7, it is the latest sniper.

8 Q. You are saying that the only weapon that you describe as a

9 sniper's weapon that you saw during the conflict was one that was captured

10 from the opposing side; is that what you are saying, that this was the

11 only weapon that you would describe as a sniper's weapon that you saw

12 during the conflict?

13 A. Well, no --

14 Q. Very well.

15 A. -- I saw ordinary sniping --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think

18 that, according to the Rules, we shouldn't interrupt the witness too

19 frequently, but I want to underline this.

20 MR. STAMP: I will try not to interrupt the witness, but may I ask

21 if I could -- perhaps if I do it might appear impolite, if the witness

22 could be directed, and I'm not saying he's being evasive or anything, but

23 sometimes he responds outside of the questions I ask which takes up time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to, Witness, to carefully listen to the

25 question and specifically answer to that question. So if, for example,

Page 15034

1 the question is whether you have ever seen a sniper rifle, then please

2 answer yes or no. You added where the rifle came from that you had seen,

3 and only in following questions you testified that you did not only see

4 sniper rifles captured from the Muslim side, but also other sniper rifles.

5 So if any further information is needed, counsel will certainly ask you

6 for it, but please first concentrate on the question and answer that

7 question to start with.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

9 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


12 Q. When you speak of ordinary sniping weapons, what is a name of the

13 weapon that you would consider to be an ordinary sniping weapon?

14 A. A hunting sniper.

15 Q. What, if you know, is the name of the weapon that you would

16 consider to be an ordinary sniper's rifle?

17 A. M-48.

18 Q. Do you know the killing range of that weapon?

19 A. This depends on how good the bullets are.

20 Q. Would you explain that? What do you mean this depends on how good

21 the bullets are? I asked you if you know the killing range of the

22 sniper's weapon that you referred to, and you said it depends on how good

23 the bullets are. Could you explain that, please.

24 A. Because if ammunition is old, then it doesn't have such a range,

25 and it also depends on the terrain. But the range, 200, perhaps.

Page 15035












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Page 15036

1 Depends.

2 Q. Well, if the ammunition is good, what is the killing range of a

3 sniper's weapon, as far as your experience in the war is concerned?

4 A. 800 metres.

5 Q. Where --

6 A. Correctly.

7 Q. What sort of positions did the sniper in your company locate

8 himself at?

9 A. On the line. Facing the Muslim army.

10 Q. Do you know of a commander in your brigade by the name of Zeljko

11 Kozomara?

12 A. No. No, I don't know him by that -- the name and the surname, no.

13 Q. You said that there were screens or curtains, I think, which to

14 some degree --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know of the UNPROFOR forces putting up antisniping

17 barricades on the ABiH side of Grbavica?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know of the UNPROFOR operating antisniping units on the

20 ABiH side of Grbavica?

21 A. Perhaps I may have heard something about it, but I don't know. I

22 didn't see it.

23 Q. Do you know of an antisniping agreement that came into effect in

24 the early part of 1994?

25 A. I knew that there was a truce, and that during the truce over 100

Page 15037

1 civilians and soldiers died from snipers during this truce. But there was

2 an order, I don't know what the date was.

3 Q. Your answer is not really responding to the question. I am

4 talking about the early part of 1994, and I will repeat the question: Do

5 you know of an antisniping agreement in the early part of 1994?

6 A. I can't remember exactly.

7 Q. Were you on the lines in the vicinity of the Jewish cemetery in

8 the early part of 1994?

9 A. Yes. Just by the cemetery there was always the line there.

10 Q. Are you aware of units from outside of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

11 being brought in to crush VRS sniping units, VRS units that were sniping

12 at civilians from the area of the Jewish cemetery in the early part of

13 1994?

14 A. Not where we were, in our company.

15 Q. Are you aware, and I note your answer, "not where you were" but I

16 will rephrase the question and I would like you to answer it: Are you

17 aware of units, military units from outside of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

18 being brought to the area of the Jewish cemetery to suppress sniping units

19 that had been shooting at civilians? And that is in the early part of

20 1994.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

23 the witness has answered the previous question very clearly.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me just guide you. If you

25 would like to make this objection, you could say, which is a usual

Page 15038

1 expression, "question asked; question answered." That would do. Then in

2 legal terms, it is clear to everyone what you intend to say. The question

3 has not been answered. Please -- let me.

4 You have heard the question of Mr. Stamp, whether any units were

5 brought in in early 1994 from outside the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in order

6 to suppress sniper activity in the area of the Jewish cemetery. Could you

7 please answer that question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered. I answered, no, not in

9 my company.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now the question is, which was not in your company,

11 might have been in other units. The question is not limited to your

12 company, but the question is whether you knew anything about such a thing,

13 even if it was not in your unit?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't have any

15 personal knowledge of that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What do you mean by "personal knowledge"? Did

17 you hear from someone about it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


21 Q. On a map yesterday you pointed to several buildings and you said

22 fire emanated from those buildings every day.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, I am going to ask you if you are sure about this "every day"

25 aspect. Is it an exaggeration or is it true, that to your certain

Page 15039

1 knowledge, fire emanated from those buildings every day?

2 A. 1992, 1993, almost every day.

3 Q. So you now say it was not every day, but almost every day; is that

4 your evidence?

5 A. Let me clarify --

6 Q. No, please. Time is limited. Thank you very much for the offer.

7 I just want to know if it is now your evidence that though there might not

8 have been fire every single day, it was most days in 1992 and 1993; is

9 that what you are saying?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Did you personally see and witness fire coming from the

12 Holiday Inn most days?

13 A. Mostly, most days.

14 Q. I take it, therefore, that your evidence is that in 1992, 1993,

15 and 1994, on most days you saw fire coming from the Holiday Inn?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I see, page 14, line 3, we are talking

18 about 1992, 1993. On the same page, line 9, we are talking about 1992,

19 and 1993, and we suddenly moved to 1992, 1993, and 1994. That confuses

20 me.

21 MR. STAMP: I am sorry, Mr. President. I really wanted to stick

22 to what he had said, 1992 and 1993, earlier. However, he did answer

23 nonetheless.

24 Could the witness be shown Exhibit 3 -- the first photograph was

25 what? 341.

Page 15040

1 Q. Is it your evidence that this photograph was taken from the left

2 side of the Jewish cemetery?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that everyone understands by "the left

5 side" it being the western side -- I am sorry.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our side. From our side, from our

7 positions.

8 MR. STAMP: Very well.

9 Q. And according to your positions were throughout on the western

10 side of the cemetery?

11 A. Along the line.

12 Q. Witness, I am not asking about the photograph right now. Just

13 listen to what I am asking. According to you, throughout the entire

14 period of conflict, your lines were always to the west side of the Jewish

15 cemetery?

16 A. To the west side.

17 Q. And this is a photograph of part of the vicinity taken from the

18 vicinity of your lines, if I understand you correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you point out to us which part of the Holiday Inn that you saw

21 fire emanating from almost every day?

22 A. The central part of the Holiday Inn, it had two holes with a

23 radius of about 1 metre.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. This

25 is not the testimony of the witness. The witness never said that he saw

Page 15041












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Page 15042

1 firing -- let me finish. Let me finish my objection.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we should ask the witness to

3 take his headphones off or to leave the courtroom, if you start commenting

4 on what the testimony of the witness was. So I will not let you continue

5 until --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well, let's

7 do that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: But first, may I ask the witness -- I think we never

9 asked him whether he speaks -- could you -- do you understand any English

10 or French?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please take your headphones off again.

13 And Mr. Usher, I would like as a rule, if the witness stays, I would like

14 him not to have the transcript on his screen, but I take it that it is a

15 picture now.

16 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President what I

18 wanted to say is that on page 14, line 16 and then 17, the testimony of

19 this witness was not that he had seen fire coming from the Holiday Inn on

20 a daily basis. He didn't say every day. And this is not what the

21 transcript says. He is talking about many days of firing, but certainly

22 not the expression used by Mr. Stamp, which was "every day."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If -- yes, please respond. As far as I can see

24 it now, we have heard the objection. Please respond and then...

25 MR. STAMP: Having marked these positions yesterday on the map,

Page 15043

1 including the Holiday Inn being number "3", he was asked by counsel:

2 "Q. Mr. D11, during the course of 1992 and 1994, can you tell

3 us whether and how often soldiers fired from the positions that you have

4 marked with the weapons that you had mentioned."

5 He had earlier said sniping from time to time Holiday Inn.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stamp slow down, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you slow down.

8 MR. STAMP: The question continued: "How often did this occur?"

9 And his answer was: "Well, this occurred on a daily basis, several times

10 a day." Then today I asked if it was an exaggeration about daily -- I

11 didn't ask him about several times a day. And he said, well, not really

12 daily, but most days. And today I was asking him specifically about the

13 Holiday Inn.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the lines of yesterday

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to -- what I find in yesterday's

17 transcript is a question saying.

18 "Q. Mr. D11, in the course of 1992 and 1994, can you tell us

19 whether and how often soldiers fired from the positions that you have

20 marked and with the weapons you have mentioned."

21 And then the answer was: "Well this occurred on a daily basis."

22 That means, and that is how I understand the testimony to be today

23 as well, is that the witness testified that from those positions there was

24 on a daily basis or at least at an almost daily basis, fire, but that

25 would not necessarily mean that from the Holiday Inn it would also be on a

Page 15044

1 daily or an almost daily basis.

2 If you would agree with that, could you then please rephrase the

3 question. On the other hand, the question was specifically about from

4 where from the Holiday Inn. So whether this was on a daily basis, it

5 should not be misrepresented, but it could create no confusion in respect

6 of the question itself, that is, from what part of the Holiday Inn.

7 Witness, could you please --

8 MR. STAMP: May I, before we proceed.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one moment.

10 MR. STAMP: To narrow yesterday's testimony to the Holiday Inn, I

11 did ask him at line 14, at page 14, line 12, "did you personally see and

12 witness fire coming from the Holiday Inn --"

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak into the microphone.

14 MR. STAMP: And yes, he said he practically saw it --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I overlooked that. I must say that on page 14, line

16 12, it -- the testimony was that it was mostly most days that the witness

17 personally saw fire coming from the Holiday Inn.

18 Mr. Stamp, I have to apologise. I misinterpreted. No I -- but

19 the matter has been settled. I think it was Mr. Piletta-Zanin, unless you

20 would disagree, I would see on page 14, line 14, this is what the witness

21 testified, that most days he saw fire coming from the Holiday Inn.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


25 Q. Thank you, sir. The question was please point out and explain to

Page 15045

1 us where it was on that Holiday Inn building that you saw fire coming from

2 most days?

3 A. From the floors, from the high floors, there would be fire that we

4 could see. There was a light from the fire and there were shots that were

5 being fired at us. That was, they were firing at our back because this

6 building is behind us.

7 Q. Okay. When you say "from the top, from floor near the top" how

8 many times floors from the top of the building did you see this firing

9 coming from?

10 A. As much as you can see here.

11 Q. Maybe you didn't understand the question. You said from the "from

12 the floors towards the top." How many floors?

13 A. Five, six.

14 Q. So firing came from five to six floors?

15 A. I didn't count them, but they were changing places. Understand,

16 they were changing the positions from which they would fire with a sniper.

17 Q. Now, did these snipers --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To clarify the situation it

21 would be good to indicate in the transcript. I believe that the witness

22 had indicated on the photograph what he meant. He could point with a

23 pointer where the fire was coming from.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I didn't notice the witness pointing at

25 something, but if, would you please then make clear that it appears in the

Page 15046

1 transcript.


3 Q. Well, could you please put the pointer on the place that you say

4 fire was coming from.

5 A. [Indicates] From above this black line. This is the area that the

6 snipers were active from mostly you can see it here or around here.

7 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness indicated a circle around

8 what appears to be the top five storeys of the building above a

9 dark-coloured line drawn through the approximate centre of the building

10 that we see in the photograph.

11 Q. Now, the fire that you said you saw coming from the Holiday Inn,

12 you saw it coming through windows or through doors or through apertures,

13 or did they knock out the wall?

14 A. Through the windows and through the hole in the walls.

15 Q. And these holes that you speak of, were these holes that were

16 knocked out of the wall?

17 A. Yes, of course.

18 Q. Now, on how many floors did they knock these holes out of the

19 wall? Is it the same five floors that you indicated to us?

20 A. I can't recall exactly.

21 Q. It was an approximation. We know it could not be more than five,

22 based on what you just showed us. About how many floors did they knock

23 holes out of the wall --

24 A. Approximately from three to four floors.

25 Q. I think you said generally, in general reference to these

Page 15047












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Page 15048

1 buildings, that these buildings accommodated ABiH soldiers. Did you say

2 that?

3 A. Yes, in the lower floors.

4 Q. Including the Holiday Inn?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How did you become aware that the Holiday Inn accommodated

7 soldiers from the lower floors? I take it that this is a situation that

8 you could see from your lines, you can see the lower floors from your

9 lines; is that so?

10 A. No, we didn't see it. But we saw the units passing and also the

11 stories of the people who left the Muslim part of Sarajevo.

12 Q. What units did you see passing?

13 A. Muslim units. Snipers.

14 Q. Where were they passing, on vehicles or on foot or what means of

15 transportation.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is a

17 translation problem. The headphones. The headphones.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... but -- yes,

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say, and this

21 is in the interest of the Prosecution, so that they can follow. What I

22 think I heard the witness say in his own language was not only that he had

23 seen - and this is line 15 - snipers, but that he had seen sniper units.

24 The witness used the adjectival form and not the nominal form. That is,

25 he was referring to units as such, organisations that had been established

Page 15049

1 on the Muslim side and I am not certain, but I think this is a very slight

2 translation error. It hasn't been entered into the transcript. It only

3 says "snipers" where it should say "sniper units." Obviously this is a

4 question that could be raised but I am raising this for the sake of the

5 Prosecution so that they can carry on with their procedure.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp.

7 MR. STAMP: May I proceed, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, should we ask the witness

10 to put his headphones back on.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put on your headphones again.


13 Q. Before we return to the last question, just to clarify something,

14 is it your evidence that the holes knocked in the wall or the walls on the

15 three to four storeys of the Holiday Inn had a radius of about 1 metres,

16 the size of the holes was a radius of about 1 metre?

17 A. I didn't measure it. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. I am approximating. I am asking you to approximate. Or --

19 withdrawn. May I put it this way, in respect to the size of the holes,

20 did you say, these holes were about a size of or a radius of 1 metre? Did

21 you say that?

22 A. Well, yes, more or less. It is something like that. It depends

23 on which one.

24 Q. Very well.

25 A. It depends on the biggest one.

Page 15050

1 Q. What was the size of the biggest one, approximate?

2 A. I said a minute ago, about 1 metre. But I don't know. I didn't

3 measure it.

4 Q. I understand that. You said you saw Muslim sniper units passing

5 by. How, by what means of transport did they pass? Did they walk? Did

6 they ride horses? Did they travel in cars? Did they -- how did they

7 travel?

8 A. By the Jewish cemetery, on foot. There were also vehicles,

9 armoured units.

10 Q. Let's go back to -- let's go back to where we started from. I

11 asked you how is it you knew that the Holiday Inn accommodated ABiH

12 personnel, and you said that you saw these units passing.

13 A. Well, I said that people were leaving Sarajevo and that there were

14 snipers who fired from the Holiday Inn. People would arrive, they would

15 be transported in armoured vehicles. What you could see by our side by

16 the Holiday Inn, but over there, perhaps it wasn't visible.

17 Q. Did you see persons being transported by armoured vehicles in the

18 vicinity of the Holiday Inn?

19 A. Yes, but the field of vision is very restricted.

20 Q. I understand that. Could you see these Muslim sniper units on

21 foot in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn?

22 A. Yes, but very few metres.

23 Q. When you say "very few metres" could you explain a little bit

24 further what you mean? You could only see them for an -- or within an

25 area of very few metres; that the what you mean?

Page 15051

1 A. Let me clarify this. Between the Holiday Inn and the Assembly.

2 Q. I see. What number was the Assembly building, could you remind

3 us, please? Number "1?"

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. That's the Executive Council and the Assembly, numbers "1" and

7 "2."

8 Q. And you could see these sniper units between these buildings?

9 A. No. There were curtains in this part. This part of the Assembly.

10 There is only a bridge there, the Vrbanja Bridge, and there were huge

11 curtains between the Slovenijales building which is the right side of the

12 Assembly. So it wasn't possible to see them. But after you fired, you

13 could see the firing from the holes and the windows of the Assembly and

14 the Executive Council. That's not very far from where we were, as the

15 crow flies. It is 250 metres, as the crow flies.

16 Q. I am trying to understand what you are saying. Did you say, I try

17 to remember what you have been telling us, did you say in answer to my

18 question "Could you see these Muslim snipers on foot of the vicinity of

19 the Holiday Inn," did you respond: "Yes, but very few metres,"? Did you

20 say that?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Now, when you said it, was it true?

23 A. Yes, because I was there. I spent four years there.

24 Q. So, notwithstanding the difficulties of vision, it was possible

25 from some of the areas where your battalion or your company was located to

Page 15052

1 see persons on foot on the streets in the vicinity of the Assembly

2 building and the Holiday Inn?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection. May

4 I? How should I express myself?


6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object

7 because this question represents -- misrepresents the witness's testimony.

8 This witness did not speak about the neighbouring area. He specifically

9 pointed out on the monitor the area between the Holiday Inn and the

10 Executive Council. And I don't think that that was added into the

11 transcript. I think it should be. He said that the only place where one

12 could see -- the only place one could see was between these two buildings,

13 and nothing else. So, asking this question in a general sense and saying,

14 could you see this in the surroundings of the Holiday Inn, this does not

15 correspond to the testimony that the witness gave. Thank you.

16 MR. STAMP: My --

17 JUDGE ORIE: The -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, one of the questions put to

18 the witness and asked by the witness was: "Did you see -- could you see

19 these Muslim sniper units on foot in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn?" The

20 answer was: "Yes, but a few metres."

21 So the objection is denied.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,

23 nevertheless, since the witness later on specified this, could we --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp is allowed to ask questions even if the

25 later answers might be slightly different and perhaps Mr. Stamp wants to

Page 15053












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15054

1 know exactly what the answer is, if you put a question in a different way.

2 He is allowed to do so.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but, Mr. President, my

5 question was different. Could we see in the transcript what the witness

6 mentioned. He said that -- encircled the area between the two buildings.

7 Could this be entered into the transcript so that it is clear. That's

8 all.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think the Holiday Inn is numbered, number "3" and

10 the other buildings are "1" and "2." So I don't think for the transcript

11 it is a problem that it has not been described again, since it becomes

12 clear enough from the marked photograph.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


15 Q. Can you recall when it was -- or before I leave that area, may I

16 just ask you one question: These persons that you say you saw on foot

17 that you describe as snipers, how did you know that they were snipers?

18 A. They had black clothes down by the Jewish cemetery, and when we

19 captured them, when they were killed in our part of the territory, this is

20 what we could see.

21 Q. I will move on.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. STAMP: May I just have a moment, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just ask you, I am at least a bit

25 confused. The earlier questions were about military people passing by

Page 15055

1 in-- well, let's say the other side of the river. Whereas the answer of

2 the witness seems to relate -- I don't know whether this is something you

3 would like to clarify before you pass on to your next subject.

4 MR. STAMP: If I may have a moment to confer, Mr. President.


6 [Prosecution counsel confer]


8 Q. Witness, I wish you to think specifically of the snipers that you

9 say that you saw on foot in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn. How did you

10 know that those snipers that you saw on foot in the vicinity of the

11 Holiday Inn were snipers?

12 A. Going from the positions on the way from the positions back home

13 where my flat is about 700 metres from the Jewish cemetery, we had

14 observers every day. We had observed where snipers were active in order

15 to neutralise those snipers.

16 Q. Are you saying that these -- that you knew there were snipers

17 because you had observers or are you saying that you knew they were

18 snipers because your flat is 700 metres from the Jewish cemetery? May I

19 just repeat the question: Those snipers -- those persons that you say you

20 saw on foot in the vicinity of the Jewish -- in the vicinity of the

21 Holiday Inn, why do you say they were snipers, simply?

22 A. Because we had binoculars, so it was possible for us to see

23 everything.

24 Q. Thank you. Now where were these observation posts from where you

25 could see and be certain about what you saw, located?

Page 15056

1 A. Well, from elevated points of Vraca, the Jewish cemetery,

2 Grbavica, Pulica [phoen], Drveta [phoen], Kuce [phoen] it was possible for

3 us to observe this from these elevated points. Everything that served as

4 a shelter.

5 Q. Witness, you know the route from -- that one would take from

6 Grbavica to Pale?

7 A. Yes, very well. I've been down that route 150 times.

8 Q. Was that route exposed to ABiH sniping from Colina Kapa?

9 A. Yes. That's the only route which provided a link to Grbavica. It

10 was one of the main roads. It was the only route to the outside.

11 Q. That main road towards Pale went through Zlatiste?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And Trebevic?

14 A. Yes. It was used by those who dared to use it, and people who

15 didn't know about it. So they would use the road and then be killed by a

16 sniper.

17 Q. On that road, was there a coffee shop known as "Kod Stane?"

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. On that road, apart from Colina Kapa, where did sniping from the

20 ABiH emanate from?

21 A. Well, from all directions. From Sarajevo, Debelo Brdo, Staro

22 Brdo, Mojmilo, and from elevated points in the direction of the

23 Sarajevo-Pale Road.

24 Q. You got sniping from Debelo Brdo, you said?

25 A. Yes, where the French UNPROFOR Battalion was located, too.

Page 15057

1 Q. You got sniping from some parts of Staro Brdo?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The Sarajevo Romanija Corps controlled some parts of Staro Brdo?

4 One moment.

5 MR. STAMP: If you could assist, Mr. Usher, if you could take the

6 photograph. I think it is distracting the witness.

7 Q. Question: The Sarajevo Romanija Corps controlled a part of

8 Staro Brdo?

9 A. I will clarify this.

10 Q. Just answer me. Did the Sarajevo Romanija Corps control a part of

11 Staro Brdo and ABiH another part of that hill?

12 A. Yes, but I would have to clarify this for the sake of the truth.

13 When the UNPROFOR forces arrived, the Muslim forces dug in in Debelo Brdo.

14 So they arrived at the rear of the Serbian Army. This has been recorded

15 on tape.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you.

17 Now, on that --

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, the question was about Staro Brdo, and

19 your answer was, as it was translated, about Debelo Brdo. Was your answer

20 about Debelo Brdo or about Staro Brdo?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, both.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are linked to each other.


25 Q. And along that route to Pale, did you come under fire from ABiH

Page 15058

1 forces in Cicin Han?

2 A. On part of the road above Zlatiste.

3 Q. So you came --

4 A. Towards Trebevic.

5 Q. So you came under fire of ABiH forces at Cicin Han?

6 A. Yes, if the positions were a little closer to our positions.

7 Q. You came, I take it then from your answer, that you came under

8 fire from ABiH forces in the direction of Cicin Han, but a little bit

9 closer to the road; is that what you mean?

10 A. Yes. Muslim snipers would appear and do what they would do, and

11 then they would withdraw.

12 Q. And on that road to Pale, did the Muslim snipers, as you call

13 them, also fire from Brajkovac?

14 A. I don't know exactly.

15 Q. Do you know where Brajkovac is?

16 A. Yes. Brajkovac. Yes, I know. I know where Brajkovac is, not

17 Rajkovac. I'm talking about the action towards our side, From Debelo

18 Brdo, Staro Brdo and the Vraca-Spomenko road, and the Vraca and Grbavica,

19 and Zlatiste parts, this is where snipers were most active. Children were

20 killed, pregnant children, small children, a small child was killed by a

21 sniper.

22 Q. What I am trying --

23 A. My son was killed by a sniper.

24 Q. What we are trying --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects himself. My son was

Page 15059












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15060

1 shot at by a sniper.


3 Q. I am sorry to hear that. However, please try to understand what I

4 am trying to do for the time being, is to identify where were the sources

5 of this sniper fire from the ABiH on that road to Pale. Was there sniper

6 fire on to the road from Brajkovac from ABiH?

7 A. I wasn't there at the position all the time. You understand. I

8 can say -- I can talk about the part where I was present on a daily basis,

9 day and night.

10 Q. Did you not say, Witness, that you travelled that route many

11 times, that one had to be intrepid in order to take that route. I am

12 asking you if you know of a danger of sniper fire from the ABiH emanating

13 from Brajlovac [sic] when you look that route.

14 A. I knew about that because I would travel. My woman -- my wife and

15 child were in Pale in 1992. I went to visit her and then I would return.

16 This took about an hour, and then I would return.

17 Q. And --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to clarify things. In respect of the

19 locations mentioned by Mr. Stamp, you said Brajlovac but I think you refer

20 to Brajkovac.

21 MR. STAMP: Brajkovac, yes. Forgive my pronunciation. Brajkovac.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you personally experience sniper fire coming from

23 Brajkovac?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They hit an old military

25 lorry.

Page 15061


2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 12 or 13.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this was in your presence?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was also present when the

5 Muslims launched an attack --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I am just asking whether you were present when this

7 happened. Did you experience at more occasions sniper fire coming from

8 Brajkovac? Was it once or was it more times?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Stamp asks you about the direction --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Brajkovac.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Stamp asks you about sniper fire, would you

13 please, if he asks you to do so, tell him whether you personally

14 experienced sniper fire. If he wants more details, he will ask for it, or

15 that you heard about sniper fired from the locations you mentioned. If he

16 needs more details, he will ask you.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: Just indicated to me that this may be an important

19 time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I didn't want to stop you, where I interrupted

21 you already. We will adjourn until 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, please proceed.


Page 15062

1 Q. Before the break we were talking about the road that you travelled

2 on on countless occasions during the conflict, and the danger of sniping

3 which you endured as you travelled on that road.

4 The sniping, generally speaking, in the area that we spoke about,

5 came from the north of that road; is that correct?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is not a very precise

9 question. We should give a precise location. It could be just one little

10 slip and all the cardinal points would be modified. It could just be a

11 curve in the road.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We will hear that from the witness. Please proceed,

13 Mr. Stamp.


15 Q. In the area that we talked about earlier, Debelo Brdo, Brajkovac,

16 Cicin Han, the sniping that you referred to came from the north of the

17 road; is that correct?

18 A. Well, in relation to our positions which is towards the west.

19 Q. Did the sniping come from the north of that road in those areas

20 that we spoke of?

21 A. Mostly it was the eastern side.

22 MR. STAMP: Could the witness, with your leave, Mr. President, be

23 shown, I think it is Exhibit D1778.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

25 MR. STAMP: May I have a look at that map. Thank you. That is

Page 15063

1 it.

2 Q. Can you please point to the road on that map?

3 MR. STAMP: Could the map be centred. Some of what he is pointing

4 to is not...

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Vraca, then it goes to Miljevci

6 and then on to Pale via Trebevic. Zlatiste and Pale.

7 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness has pointed to a road

8 outlined in yellow starting from a yellow area in which it is written

9 "Spomen park Vraca" going easterly or towards the east just below where

10 it is written "Vranjace" and continuing above where it is written

11 "Zlatiste" and continuing to below where it is written "Stari Grad."

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am correcting -- it is not

13 Vranjace, it's Vranjaca.

14 MR. STAMP: Vranjaca, thank you very much. That map could be

15 removed, with your leave, Mr. President. And could he be shown 1779.

16 Q. Do you see a circle close to the middle of the map below the

17 number "58"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Does that circle touch upon and include the same road that you

20 pointed to?

21 A. Yes, but only a very small part.

22 Q. I think you said at all times the area covered by that circle was

23 under the control of the ABiH. May I ask you this: On the countless

24 occasions when you travelled this road, was that road under the control of

25 the ABiH?

Page 15064

1 A. The road was on a neutral part. On this side was the Muslim Army

2 and on this side was the Serb Army. That's why the road was exposed to

3 sniper fire.

4 Q. Could you point to the side where you say the Serbian Army was,

5 exactly where it was in the vicinity of that circle?

6 A. Yes. No.

7 Q. Pardon me?

8 A. [Indicates] The Serb Army. [Indicates] BH Army, below the road

9 itself, BH Army. It is on a slope.

10 Q. When you travelled on that road which you have just described as

11 neutral territory, did you see ABiH vehicles or ABiH troops travelling on

12 that road?

13 A. Not by the road. We used the road. Because from our positions --

14 Q. Your army, it is your evidence, used that road; is that correct?

15 A. Occasionally, when we thought the sniper wouldn't fire and that

16 shells wouldn't be thrown on it, we used otherwise the roundabout road to

17 Pale via Kasindol.

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. So we would use it at our own risk. It is a very long way to go

20 via Kasindol and whoever dared who would use this road via Trebevic.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. Can I take it from what you have

22 been saying that at least some of the area covered by this circle was

23 under the control of your army, the VRS?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On -- could you please take your earphones off.

Page 15065












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15066

1 On what basis, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

2 Use abstract terms if possible.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry. Thank you. The

5 witness used a very precise expression which was a perfect antonym of the

6 question that was used. And I think I was abstract enough.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you were abstract enough. But in

8 cross-examination the same might not be true in examination-in-chief. But

9 in cross-examination the Prosecutor is allowed to ask this question.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. The question simply is -- oh, sorry about that.

13 A. Sorry.

14 Q. Can we understand from your evidence that at least some of the

15 area covered by that circle on this map was under the control of the VRS?

16 A. On the basis of my testimony, you can't understand this, if I said

17 something else. It was a neutral area. If you have misunderstood me I

18 will explain again.

19 Q. Could you mark on that map where you say the VRS lines were?

20 A. Yes, on several occasions, I already tried to explain.

21 MR. STAMP: May he be given a blue pen.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With a dotted line or a full line?


24 Q. With a dotted line or a full line, whichever one you prefer.

25 A. What's not in here --

Page 15067

1 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to see where the lines were in that

2 position. Could you now have another look at Exhibit 1778. And keep that

3 one. Keep that one. You can look at both of them at the same time.

4 Would you agree with me, Witness, that the positions that you

5 marked for the VRS lines, north of Zlatiste, are different on these two

6 maps?

7 A. Yes. Perhaps I didn't mark it in properly, but I can do it again.

8 I did it just -- I did it just so.

9 Q. Very well.

10 A. I can perhaps mark it according to the street names. That would

11 be the best, to correct what was there. The Jewish cemetery I have marked

12 in correctly, for certain. The 4th Company goes along Ljubljanska Street

13 and Zagrebacka Street towards Vrbanja. That's been put in correctly, 100

14 per cent.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP11, please listen to questions put to you. If

16 Mr. Stamp wants to know additional information, he will ask you for it,

17 please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


19 Q. I suggest to you that on the map in front of you, 1779, that area

20 of the circle, that road that you travelled on was under the control of

21 the VRS.

22 A. It is obvious that you weren't there.

23 Q. That is your answer? I suggest to you that in the vicinity --

24 MR. STAMP: Usher, you may take those maps now.

25 Q. -- Of the Jewish cemetery, the VRS controlled the chapel?

Page 15068

1 A. The VRS never, from the start of the war to the finish, never had

2 under its control the chapel at the Jewish cemetery. Never, and I will

3 state this before this Chamber.

4 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that the area to the east -- sorry -- the

5 area to the west of the Jewish cemetery was high ground which overlooked

6 much of the city of Sarajevo; is that correct?

7 A. No, it is not very high.

8 Q. I suggest that it overlooked much of the city of Sarajevo.

9 A. Yes, but buildings, houses, hill Zuc, Hum, Sokolac, Mojmilo,

10 Sogbunar, and then over there towards Bistrik, Bjelave, and further on,

11 Metas, Kosevo Hospital, and so on, Kosevo stadium, it is a large area of

12 the town.

13 Q. So you agree with me notwithstanding that Hum on the other side

14 was high areas and there were other areas. That area, on the western side

15 of the Jewish cemetery overlooked much of the city of Sarajevo?

16 A. Depends from which side you look.

17 Q. I further suggest to you that that area or from -- withdrawn.

18 I suggest to you that from that area to the west of the Jewish

19 cemetery, it was possible to fire infantry weapons into the city of

20 Sarajevo. Was it possible or not?

21 A. You say it was possible, but we didn't fire.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- may I instruct you to answer to the

23 questions and if you are asked for a possibility, then just tell counsel

24 whether it was possible or not possible. If he wants to know whether you

25 did it, he will ask for it. Please proceed.

Page 15069


2 Q. Is it your evidence that you are able to tell us where the lines

3 of the various companies of your battalion were located because you, at

4 some time or the other, fought with all these companies?

5 A. Those that were closer to me, I can say for certain about them, on

6 my right and my left-hand side, the 5th and the 4th.

7 Q. Well, let's take those two. When did you fight with the

8 5th Company? Yesterday I think you told us you could tell us the dates.

9 Can you tell us when you fought with the 5th company?

10 A. On the occasion of the attack of the Muslim forces, the operation

11 that was called --

12 Q. Witness --

13 A. -- Beginning. Sorry.

14 Q. When I ask "when" I am asking that you tell me, the month, the

15 year, the date, even the hour, if you can. When did your unit, your

16 company, fight with the 5th Company?

17 A. I will tell you straight away. On the 12th of June, 1992, in the

18 early hours of the morning the attack started and it lasted incessantly

19 until the dark fell, and it went on -- let me just finish since you asked

20 and since I was the only one who survived this attack without a scratch,

21 although the Muslims had even used poisonous gases, my military specialty

22 was --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP11, the question is when it was, not what means

24 were used, but the question was when did you fight. And I do understand

25 when you said that on the 12th of June in the early hours of the morning,

Page 15070

1 the attack started, that you indicate that that was the beginning of the

2 fighting. But listen to the questions and answer to the questions.

3 Although, I am fully aware that you have far more information that you

4 think would be useful for this Court to know, but nevertheless, since the

5 Prosecution has not all time available to it, to listen to the questions

6 and to answer.

7 So I take it that you say that the fighting started on the 12th of

8 June in the morning. It went on until when?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the night.


11 Q. Was that --

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

13 Q. Was that the only time your unit, your company, was engaged in

14 combat with the 5th Company or were there other times?

15 A. There were other times as well.

16 Q. When you were engaged in combat with the 5th Company, who did you

17 receive your orders from to join them in combat?

18 A. They asked for volunteers.

19 Q. Did you receive orders to join them?

20 A. No. As I said, they asked for volunteers.

21 Q. Did they ever join you in the defence of your area of

22 responsibility, that is, did the 5th Company ever join you in the defence

23 of your area of responsibility?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know whether or not they volunteered or they were ordered

Page 15071












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15072

1 to do so?

2 A. I don't know that. It was a -- an intense attack.

3 MR. STAMP: I am wrapping up, Mr. President. If I may just take a

4 moment.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]


7 Q. The persons on foot that you described as snipers which you said

8 you saw in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn, were they carrying sniper

9 weapons?

10 A. Sometimes.

11 Q. What kind of weapons you would describe as sniper weapons?

12 A. It is hard to observe, but there were long-barreled weapons.

13 Q. Do you know what a Dragonov is?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,

15 but I am following the French channel, and I did not have the ending of

16 the witness's answer. Could he please repeat it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in English it reads: "It is hard to observe, but

18 there were long-barreled weapons."

19 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


21 Q. How often did you see them -- I am sorry, how often did you see

22 them carrying weapons.

23 A. I apologise to interrupt you, but you asked me if I knew what

24 Dragonov was.

25 Q. Very well. Do you?

Page 15073

1 A. I don't know, but I presume that that is a sniper rifle, according

2 to the French word.

3 Q. Do you understand French?

4 A. No, but I know it's a French word.

5 Q. I see. Have you ever seen one?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How often would you see these snipers or persons that you thought

8 were snipers in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn?

9 A. As I said, occasionally, in the course of observation.

10 Q. Could you help us a little bit more with what you mean by

11 "occasionally"? More than once a day? Once a week? Once a month?

12 Approximately.

13 A. Well, when we were observation posts, we had our observers in case

14 there was an attack. We had observers who would submit reports.

15 Q. Approximately how often? Just, if you could specify a little bit

16 more what you mean by "occasionally."

17 A. We had observers who were there every day. We wouldn't have

18 managed to get through such a war with very few people.

19 Q. Would you see these people approximately every day; is that your

20 answer? Or would they be seen approximately every day? The question is

21 withdrawn.

22 Would you personally see these persons that you thought were

23 snipers approximately every day?

24 A. No, I wouldn't. I didn't go to observe every day. I apologise.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 15074


2 Q. Quickly, you mentioned that you knew of two facilities where the

3 ABiH Army manufactured weapons of war. When was the first time during the

4 conflict this came to your knowledge and attention?

5 A. 1992.

6 Q. From whom did you obtain -- well, before I ask that. Did this

7 knowledge come to your attention in 1992 in respect to both facilities or

8 only one?

9 A. For Vaso Miskin Crni it was in 1992 when people came from Sarajevo

10 to our territory.

11 Q. And when did the other facility that you mentioned being a weapons

12 producing facility, when was this -- when did this become known to you?

13 A. Also in 1993 and 1994. People who came to our positions would

14 speak about it. People who came -- men who came to bring our unit up to

15 strength.

16 Q. So you heard about the one in Vaso Miskin in 1992 and the first

17 time in respect to the other would be 1993; is that what you are saying?

18 A. Well, more or less, yes. I can't remember the exact dates. Many

19 things have happened.

20 Q. Did you hear these men who came to your side speak about these

21 things personally? Did you personally hear them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would that information and knowledge have come to the attention of

24 your superior officers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15075

1 Q. Including your artillery officers?

2 A. Yes, because we reported on what we found out.

3 MR. STAMP: I am -- would, Mr. President, would like to ask a

4 question. Perhaps I can ask it and it could be ruled as to whether or not

5 the question is a proper question. I was going to put it to the Court,

6 first.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would it do any harm if the witness would hear

8 the question or not?

9 MR. STAMP: Not really.

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. DP11, not to answer the question

11 until permission has been given for it. For the next question. Please

12 proceed, Mr. Stamp.


14 Q. We have had evidence in this court from an artillery officer in

15 respect to the artillery targets in the vicinity of Grbavica and the

16 Jewish cemetery. He never mentioned any of those two locations.

17 Do you have an explanations to why these two locations would not

18 be targets for your artillery if it was well known in 1992?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on what basis.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection.

22 Because the person we are speaking about indicated that he had left that

23 place in 1993, and it seems that one of the targets that we are speaking

24 about was brought to the knowledge of the units in 1996. So there is some

25 chronological confusion created by the Prosecution. I think the

Page 15076

1 Prosecution should clarify this immediately. And it was brought to the

2 attention in 1995.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President -- I apologise.

5 This witness left the scene in 1992, not 1993.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber deems this question and the answer to

7 this question not to be of assistance for the determinations the Chamber

8 has to make. Please proceed.

9 MR. STAMP: Yes, I will move on.

10 Q. I --

11 A. Could I answer?

12 Q. You said that you --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just be sure that -- I see on my transcript,

14 you asked to answer that question. But the Chamber -- the Chamber has not

15 allowed this question to be put to you so there is no need to answer the

16 question.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


20 Q. You told us that you were given orders or your units were given

21 orders not to fire on civilians; is that so? As a matter of fact, the

22 person who asked you the question told you that you were ordered not to

23 fire on civilians, and you answered "yes." Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you further said and I quote: "Yes, I could explain this

Page 15077












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15078

1 better. We received orders every three days or every five days." Is that

2 corrects to the frequency in which you received these orders?

3 A. Well, it depended on the need. As the first men arrived and as

4 the unit was brought up to strength because the new men had to be provided

5 with information with regards to the front line.

6 Q. But in respect of the frequency, it was approximately every three

7 to five days?

8 A. Well, yes.

9 Q. And you said then as you are saying now, that it depended on the

10 need, on what was required at the time, and I think you started to

11 explain. Could you explain what you mean by that?

12 A. Well, I just said that new men arrived, the unit would be brought

13 up to strength because there were wounded and dead men all the time, and

14 this depended on what was required. I can't say whether it was every

15 three or five days or occasionally, all the time. But on the whole it was

16 almost all the time.

17 Q. Would it be necessary for your units to be ordered every three to

18 five days not to fire upon civilians if you could not see civilians, and

19 if your weapons could not hit the civilians?

20 A. If we couldn't see them and -- well, if we couldn't hit them, no,

21 it wasn't necessary to receive orders.

22 MR. STAMP: That is the end of the cross-examination.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... as I understood.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

25 Or I should ask Ms. Pilipovic who started the examination-in-chief.

Page 15079

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will. Thank you,

4 Mr. President.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, in response to a question put to you by

7 the Prosecution, page 35, line 6 to 10, you said that the positions

8 referred to by the Prosecution, that is to say the red circle, the

9 positions of the Serbian Army under the red circle you saw on the map, you

10 said that these positions were on the road. Do you remember your answer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. You also added with regard to the nature of

13 the terrain, you said that the terrain was on a slope, I think. Do you

14 remember saying that?

15 A. Yes. Yes, a slight slope towards the town.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, my question is as follows: As far

17 as you know in the zone of the red circle was there ever a post of any

18 kind on a permanent basis of VRS soldiers throughout the period that you

19 were familiar with; yes or no?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I am going to move on to the issue

22 of the definition of "lines." When the Prosecution asked you a question

23 about the line, the position of the line, you didn't draw a continuous

24 line, and you said, do you want me to tell you what there is in the spaces

25 in between. Do you remember saying that?

Page 15080

1 MR. STAMP: Could we have --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Can I clarify this?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 37.3. 37.3.

4 MR. STAMP: Of the French or the English transcript, may I ask of

5 the Court.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have only on our screen the English

7 transcript, so it could not be the French, Mr. Stamp.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Defence counsel

9 would be very happy to have the French transcript in front of it. I don't

10 know if this is the time to say it. 37.3.

11 Q. Do you remember this, Witness? Witness?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you tell this Trial Chamber what you meant when

14 you said "the spaces between" the intervals in the line that you draw?

15 A. Well, that was a neutral zone.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, Mr. Piletta-Zanin I would

17 like to go back to one of your earlier questions. That is about page 35,

18 line 6 to 10. You confronted the witness with this answer, that the ABiH

19 Army was on the road, you said. Could you please indicate where I find

20 this on these lines. Because it is the recollection of the Chamber that

21 in French it was "sous la route" and that is in English, "below the road."

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was relying

23 on what I heard in the witness's language and I was following him in his

24 own language. I am closer to him. If the transcript was French, but

25 that's not the case, it is in English. How it was reproduced, I really

Page 15081

1 don't know. I think we have certain translation problems, perhaps more

2 than usual, but this is what the witness said. I can find it. But at

3 line 37.3, yet again it is one of his interventions, time consuming

4 interventions, the line 37.3, and I will read this in the transcript which

5 we don't have in the French yet, the witness was saying what is not here,

6 what is missing. And at 37.3, I have it before me, I don't know how I

7 could improve on this, how I could say it in any better manner.

8 We are losing -- wasting time, unless we don't have the same

9 numbers, the same figures or the same idea of justice.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just go back to where Mr. Stamp the last time

11 objected, because I then asked for further information on page 36, line 6

12 to... Yes. That was about 37, line 3. Is that -- is that problem

13 solved, Mr. Stamp?

14 MR. STAMP: No, it is not. And I think the best way we could go

15 about it, I am not pressing the point, is if my learned colleague is going

16 to refer to the evidence, he could just read what the evidence is, if he

17 has it there. Because his paraphrasing is not precisely what was said.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Part of the guidance that will be given during

19 the next few days to the parties would be how to refer to the other

20 sources. Because this creates a problem again and again.

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that I

23 have just quoted very precisely. I have just quoted very precisely what

24 the witness said at line 37.3. I have quoted it twice.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Put the question to the witness and use the words as

Page 15082

1 precise as possible. Please proceed. I can't imagine that the witness

2 has the question clearly in his mind any more.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly, Mr. President,

5 that I want to say that this sort of objection is not acceptable.

6 Q. Witness, this is what you stated, "and if you want me to tell you

7 what there is in between," and you were interrupted. Between the line

8 that you were drawing. Could you tell us, please, what you were referring

9 to?

10 A. Yes. That our units, our trenches weren't there. It was a

11 neutral zone. We didn't have enough men to cover all the territory.

12 Q. Witness, you are telling us if I have understood you correctly,

13 that your line was not a continuous one, but that there were certain empty

14 zones in your line itself. Is that how we are to understand it.

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, in response to a question from the

17 Prosecution, you also mentioned the Hum, Zuc, Sokolac, et cetera, points,

18 and Mojmilo. Who was at those sites, could you remind us?

19 A. Let me correct you. It is not Sokolac, it's Sokolje.

20 Q. I apologise. Who was present at these sites?

21 A. The BH Army was there.

22 Q. Thank you very much. From these sites could one observe, was the

23 vision of the town direct; yes or no? Was it possible to see the town

24 directly?

25 A. Yes, for most of them.

Page 15083












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15084

1 Q. This is a hypothesis, but one could fire at the town; yes or no?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And from one of these sites or from any of these sites, was --

4 were there any shots fired at the part of the town where you resided, that

5 is to say, Grbavica?

6 A. Yes, very often.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, in response to a question from the

8 Prosecution, you said something that made me tremble. You mentioned the

9 use of gas by one of the armies. Could you please tell us what you were

10 referring to and what personal knowledge you have of this?


12 MR. STAMP: The reference the witness made to the use of gas was

13 not in response to the question I asked. It was not responsive. Neither

14 is it really relevant to the issues before the Court.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The issue was not -- did not arise from questions put

16 to the witness in cross-examination, and apart from that, I would advise

17 you also to refrain from any comments. What answers would make you

18 tremble is a different matter. Please move to your next subject.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But nevertheless, one should know.

20 Because, Mr. President --

21 JUDGE ORIE: If it is important to know, then certainly the

22 Defence will call witnesses who can give information on this subject. And

23 perhaps they are calling witnesses. So I hope you do understand that not

24 all of the information on the entire armed conflict can be heard from you.

25 So I am not saying it is irrelevant. I am not saying that we will not

Page 15085

1 hear about it, and I do understand that you feel it of importance for this

2 Chamber to know.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to

5 make everything clear, may I ask a question about the fact that the

6 Defence has just discovered; yes or no?

7 JUDGE ORIE: You just discovered the issue you want to put to the

8 witness?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Personally, yes. I will check

10 this with Ms. Pilipovic.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have just discovered this.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, you can put a question if it is a

14 matter you just discovered.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Q. Witness, you told us that certain chemical weapons were used.

17 What do you know personally about this? What can you tell this Trial

18 Chamber about this, please?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp?

20 MR. STAMP: Same objection, and I don't think he said chemical

21 weapons, but gas.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, some people refer to gas as being chemical

23 substances, so that would not be something -- let me just confer.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I did not say "gas."

25 I said "poisonous gases."

Page 15086

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are supposed not to comment on questions put

2 to you. One moment, please.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MR. STAMP: And if I may --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

6 MR. STAMP: -- Briefly add a question, since one of the bases for

7 counsel introducing this new area is that it is just learned to the

8 Defence, just learned by the Defence --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was the basis of -- could I ask you to take

10 off your headphones, Mr. DP11.

11 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire of the Defence through the Court,

12 of course, whether or not some of the documents they have submitted to us,

13 served to us, made reference to this use of poisonous gases.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So the question is whether the material disclosed to

15 the Prosecution contains any information about the use of poisonous gases?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is a very

17 good question and I have to admit I have to be cautious. It is impossible

18 for me to know whether in all the documents that were provided there

19 was -- mention was made of such arms, such poisonous gases were mentioned

20 even if it was in an indirect manner. I can't answer that question, but

21 we are discovering about this through this witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do I see well that your client might want to confer

23 with you? Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] General Galic has just

Page 15087

1 indicated that probably in the military documents, there are documents

2 that are mentioning in a general way the problem of weapons, that is, of

3 poisonous gases. But as far as we know, we do not have any documents of

4 the use of combat gases in relation to this testimony. So this is

5 something that I discover now. I believe that it is the duty of each and

6 everyone to hear what this witness has to say and not to object to what he

7 has to say.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to call witnesses on the issue? I

9 mean, is there in any of the summaries of the witnesses any reference to

10 the use of these gases?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is an

12 enormous problem now because the Prosecution has told us about a campaign.

13 Now, if we discover that the other side may have used no matter to what

14 extent, perhaps a little, perhaps a lot, weapons that are strictly

15 forbidden by all the conventions that we know, we find ourselves in a very

16 different dimension of the conflict. I don't know how I am going to act

17 in the future. As far as we are concerned, I have to say it again, for

18 us, this is a completely new fact.

19 Now, if he is talking about poisonous gas, this is literally

20 combat gas, then maybe we can find out about it a little later and find

21 out more clearly what it is --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if in the

23 material disclosed to the other parties, the use of poisonous gas is

24 indicated, let me put it cautiously, it is -- one could expect that this

25 would be an issue that would be put forward by the Defence. Until now, I

Page 15088

1 didn't hear anything about it. But, well, we don't know how the Defence

2 case will develop. And even if I am not aware of any mention made to it,

3 you may put some questions to the witness and we will, of course, we will

4 have to assume that it is entirely new in this specific context that you

5 learned about it today.

6 So, please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank

8 you.

9 Q. Witness, in order whatever -- could you please put on your

10 headphones. Now, Witness, I am going to start again. You tell us, tell

11 this Chamber, what you know in relation to what you yourself defined as

12 being use of combat gas, this is how it would be translated into French,

13 that is, poisonous substances. What do you know about the use of these

14 substances?

15 A. Yes, in order to prove that the Muslim army was armed with all

16 kinds of weapons, they had a nitroglycerin rifle. They used gases. They

17 used gases. Every army knows what that is.

18 Q. No, I am going to stop you. Witness, you said they were using

19 gases. Are these gases that were launched towards the army, towards the

20 troops, there are historic examples and I don't wish to quote here, were

21 these gases that were designed here to destroy personnel and urban areas?

22 A. Killing of troops and anything else that was in the vicinity.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

25 whether in the English transcript, in the English transcript we have the

Page 15089












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15090

1 same thing in French. I see that we are speaking about the yperite gas.

2 I don't see that -- we see it in the English transcript. I believe that

3 is the yperite, which is the mustard gas and I am not sure if this is the

4 same thing.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this again this is all translated

6 to the witness. If there is any -- if there is any need to be clarified,

7 it is not to interpret the answers of the witness at this very moment in

8 his presence and his headphones on. Let me just --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,

10 what I am saying is what I heard in the French transcript which doesn't

11 appear in the English transcript. I believe this is my duty --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, there is no problem to say that there

13 is a difference in the English and the French transcript. Then you ask

14 the witness to take his earphones off. Then you tell us what you heard in

15 French and then we read or we remember what we heard in English. But to

16 make comparisons and to see whether this is a certain kind of gas is not

17 the thing you do in the presence of the witness. Yes.

18 But let me first -- because -- let me just ask a few questions to

19 see whether there is any basis for continuing.

20 You talked about the use of gas. When did you hear about it, did

21 you experience it yourself?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in 1992, on the 12th of June.

23 JUDGE ORIE: On the 12th of June, you experienced it yourself.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please proceed and specifically ask

25 questions about the personal experience of the witness.

Page 15091

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank

3 you.

4 Q. Witness, since you had personal experience of this, did you know

5 people who were affected by this use of this harmful substance?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, you spoke of an attack where you were the only one who

8 survived. Can you tell us if this was this attack?

9 A. Yes, that very attack.

10 Q. Thank you. The people who didn't --

11 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues]... improperly

12 leading.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refrain from leading,

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And please continue.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Now, Witness, why, if you know, did the soldiers die, those who

17 were with you, during this attack?

18 A. They were hit by glycerin.

19 Q. What do you mean -- no further question. Thank you. Very last

20 thing. You spoke about defections going across the line, do you remember

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Were these defections of soldiers, of civilians?

24 A. Well, everybody fled and no matter which faith they had, which

25 religion they were of.

Page 15092

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank

2 you.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I would like Exhibit 1781 to be put on the

7 ELMO. I am sorry. Exhibit 1781, yes. That is not the one. 1781. I

8 have this one. Is this?

9 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 1781?

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: This one? That one.

11 You said that the chapel was within the red circle. Is that true?

12 A. Yes, on the very corner of the cemetery on the Muslim side. I

13 said it properly, and our position goes from here, not directly from the

14 road.

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Are you able to put a dot or something in

16 exactly the place, but use a different colour, a red one, for example.

17 A. [Marks]

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Did you say that the BH Army controlled the

19 chapel?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: One of the witnesses that we -- that came here

22 in one of these days said the following, answering the question. The

23 question was: "This building that you call chapel, which force occupied

24 it, if any?"

25 The answer was: "No one held it. It was closer to our

Page 15093

1 positions." And I think that "our positions" was in this case the VRS

2 positions. Do you agree with that?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My last question is: Who did control the

5 cemetery itself? Because as far as I understand you were on the west side

6 and the BH Army on the east side. But the cemetery itself?

7 A. Neutral.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Neutral. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia also has one question to you --

10 Judge El Mahdi, I apologise.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 [Interpretation] Sir, you said that each company had a sniper, one

13 sniper; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Through the establishment structure.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, your one, the one

16 that was attached to your company on the front line, he carried out his

17 duties, his task of sniping from the lines that you held or was he in a

18 protected position, a more elevated position? Could you perhaps elaborate

19 on this, according to what you know, to your personal experience? Where

20 was he?

21 A. Yes, I can. He was directly on the line every day if he was

22 there, if he was not absent, and his task was to neutralise the enemy that

23 was advancing on us.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So, at a distance, if I

25 understand correctly?

Page 15094

1 A. At a distance, distance between us was 30 to 50 metres.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. You also said that

3 you were able to establish the existence of snipers on the other side.

4 Could you please look at me, Witness? Sir? Could you please look at me?

5 Could you please look me in the eye so that I can communicate to you,

6 rather than you look to your right or to your left? Very well.

7 So, you are saying that you were able to establish the existence

8 of units of sniper units on the other side, that is on the side of the

9 Presidency, that they were walking in the streets going to or coming from

10 their positions, either their positions in Holiday Inn or in the

11 neighbouring buildings.

12 Now, you were able to establish this yourself from your positions

13 or was it that your observers were telling you, they told you this

14 information, were these units visible where passers-by visible in the

15 street from your positions that were to the west of the Jewish cemetery?

16 A. I explained this once and I will explain it again. Only one small

17 part of the street when we were going to reconnaissance because I was the

18 commanding officer of the platoon, I went at a certain period if there was

19 no younger person to do it, I had to go. If there was no junior to do it,

20 I had to go.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As an observer?

22 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And the protection, if I

24 understand correctly, there were these protections that the other side had

25 erected in order to hide the view from your positions, was that effective

Page 15095

1 protection or were you still able to see, to observe, the persons passing

2 by, among others, the sniper units?

3 A. The screen was effective but it was possible to see it from the

4 other side, as the observers, the reconnaissance people went from the

5 other side, 1, 2 kilometers to other side to Vraca, and Vraca is a very

6 high point. So there were buildings, there were trees.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] From your side?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you.

11 You indicated to us that you travelled from your positions to Pale

12 some 150 times on that road; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: When you travelled from your positions to Pale, would

15 the higher part of the hill be on your right-hand side or your left-hand

16 side.

17 A. Depends on the terrain. On the right-hand side is a lot higher,

18 but the left-hand side is also quite high in various areas of the terrain.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us where it was higher -- where

20 it was high as well on the left-hand side? What areas? I do not need

21 every single spot, but where would you, in the beginning or could you

22 please indicate where --

23 A. The beginning, in the middle and just by the end of our area of

24 responsibility, of the area of the responsibility of our battalion.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we look at the Exhibit 1781 -- no. I am

Page 15096

1 making a mistake. I am sorry. I invite you to look at Exhibit 1780.

2 And could you please look at where the red circle is. Would the

3 higher ground be below that circle or more in the direction of the city?

4 A. I am not quite sure exactly where this is, but towards the city.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is the portion of the road I think you told

6 us about -- I beg your pardon? I didn't hear you.

7 A. Below the road.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The higher ground would be? Could you please

9 indicate that.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 JUDGE ORIE: The higher ground would be from the road in the

12 direction of the city rather than --

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- In the direction of Zlatiste? So Zlatiste was

15 lower than --

16 A. No, I didn't say that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking you, on that spot whether since that road

18 is on a hill, on a slope of a hill, as far as I understand, whether the

19 lower part of the hill was to the north, that is, on the map above, or

20 whether the lower part of the hill was to the south, that is, lower on the

21 map?

22 Please indicate where was the lower part and where was the upper

23 part of the hill.

24 A. Here, the terrain is such that there are rocks, there are

25 elevations on both sides, on both sides of the road. So I don't know what

Page 15097

1 the height is. I can't say it exactly. Because the terrain is

2 mountainous, hilly, and there are rocks.

3 JUDGE ORIE: In general, where the circle is, could you indicate

4 where the higher part of the hill is and where the lower part of the hill

5 is.

6 A. I can't tell you exactly. I don't want to tell a lie. I can't

7 tell you exactly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this answer.

9 You've told us that you did observe now and then, when the juniors

10 were not able, the opposite positions. Could the witness please be shown

11 map 1778, and could he be give an red pen.

12 Would you tell us exactly from where you observed when juniors

13 were not there and when you had to fulfill observation tasks, could you

14 tell us from where exactly you then observed the city?

15 A. The memorial in Vraca.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that the only spot from where you observed

17 or were there others?

18 A. It is not the only one. It is not the only one. There were

19 others as well.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you first put a small cross with the red pen on

21 the monument from where you just told us that you observed the city.

22 A. [Marks]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, with a red pen, put a small "O1" to

24 it.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 15098

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us from what other positions you

2 observed the city, when you had to do so?

3 A. We used different locations, trees. And then locations that were

4 a little hidden so that we would shelter and then observe because it was

5 risky business.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please indicate where, from where. So --

7 A. Well, there are no trees here. I can't indicate some parts that

8 are not here.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but from what area, apart from the one you

10 indicated -- just indicated?

11 A. The area of Vraca.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I saw that you were pointing with the pen to--

13 A. The entire area of Vraca, for example, the upper side below the

14 road.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The upper side below the road. You pointed at --

16 A. [Indicates] This, this here. This here.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just -- for the transcript, could you

18 please mark that area you just indicated with a red pen.

19 A. [Marks]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the observations were made from within that

21 area?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever observe from outside that area?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. You told us when

Page 15099

1 answering a question from the Defence counsel that during the attack on

2 the 12th of June that you were the only one who survived and the others

3 were killed by glycerin. Could you explain to us what you mean by

4 "glycerin"?

5 A. I didn't say that the others died from glycerin, but on the front

6 line nobody survived in a sense that they were all either wounded or

7 killed. But I also suffered from the affect of the tear gases, the

8 blister gas, the tear gas. This was the combat --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say the others where you were the only

11 one who survived. The others were killed in what way and how many were

12 there?

13 A. I said there were wounded and killed, the others even

14 Vojvode Slavko Aleksic who was the commander of the 5th Company, he was

15 shot and wounded in the chest on the left-hand side.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking -- you told us before that you were the

17 only one survived. I do now understand that there were some people killed

18 and that there were some people wounded; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 JUDGE ORIE: How many were killed during this attack or as you

21 called it?

22 A. I don't know the exact number.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately were these five, or 25 or 250?

24 A. Perhaps 8 and the others were slightly wounded and those were

25 wounded were taken to the hospital.

Page 15100

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you told us that glycerin was used.

2 You are talking about nitroglycerin rifles. What would you mean by that?

3 A. Yes. It is a poison which destroys the human organism. It is a

4 rifle with six cartridges. It is a short-barreled rifle. One of the

5 soldiers had been killed in our area and we found it while we were doing

6 the mopping up operation of the terrain the following day. And the other

7 Muslim forces were taken out by the UNPROFOR later on when they came to

8 those positions three months later.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So you say one of those killed you found them when

10 mopping up the area being hit by such a cartridge; is that correct?

11 A. He wasn't hit. He wasn't hit then, he was hit by our bullet. He

12 had a rifle, a glycerin rifle on him, that's what I said.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see anyone hit by such a cartridge, apart

14 from having found such a rifle in the hands of the other party?

15 A. I didn't see it personally, but I felt the poison gases on that

16 day. As I said, the blister gas or mustard gas, the tear gas.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you are now mentioning three gases. They

18 were all used?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: How do you -- how do you know that exactly? On what

21 basis do you take it that these three gases, as you mentioned them, were

22 used? Is this the same gas or are these three different types of gases?

23 A. They were probably three different kinds. And I personally felt

24 it on myself, on my own skin on the 12th of June. Because they couldn't

25 break through at the end, they used that because I thought I was going to

Page 15101

1 die. Before I never felt such a thing, I only learned about it a little

2 bit, but only a little bit. I felt that I was falling apart. That's what

3 I felt.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What did you exactly feel -- no, let me just

5 put a different question to you first. How did this gas come so close to

6 you? Was it fired? Was it thrown? Was it -- in what way was it -- how

7 did it reach the area where you were?

8 A. It was probably fired from a weapon because I was sprayed with

9 blister gas. I didn't know it was blister gas, but I felt terrible --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first -- I will just go step by step.

11 You say it was probably fired by a weapon. Why do you think it was fired

12 by a weapon?

13 A. Because it landed right next to me.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It landed right next to you. And did then something

15 explode or what happened?

16 A. It was intense. It was very noisy from the shells, so I couldn't

17 hear everything.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't know whether anything exploded next to

19 you or -- and then what did you feel, then, exactly?

20 A. I started to suffocate. I felt I was falling apart, that my body

21 was falling apart and I had felt itching on the parts of the body that

22 were exposed, that means, my hands, my face and my lungs.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It was itching and it was -- what did you feel

24 exactly as far as breathing was concerned?

25 A. I was dying from all the coughing. It was worse than being hit by

Page 15102

1 a shell.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What did you then do?

3 A. I remembered that moment to put a bandage on my mouth and my nose,

4 and to put water on it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you move away from the area where you were

6 hit or what...

7 A. I didn't. I stayed there because the attack was ongoing, I was

8 just firing at random. I was just firing in a burst. I never used

9 single-shot fire because near the positions I was never in a

10 position -- in a situation to use single-shot firing.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you stayed in your position; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: When did you seek help, medical help for your...

15 A. I stayed until the end that day during the combat.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It was for how many more hours? Because we do not

17 know exactly at what time it happened.

18 A. Maybe half an hour. An hour. I don't know. I didn't time it.

19 Time passed by slowly.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us about three kinds of gases. Could

21 you tell us about what you experienced in respect of the other gases? Was

22 it also your personal experience or did you hear about it or...

23 A. I've mentioned the blister gas and the tear gas. I said that I

24 felt this -- its effects personally. But others, they were hit by shots

25 from a glycerin gun.

Page 15103

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, about the gases. Is it your testimony that

2 these three gases were in this one projectile that landed near to you or

3 were these different projectiles that contained these different gases?

4 A. Each one was fired separately.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and where did the others fall? Next to you or

6 near to you?

7 A. The first two, near to me.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Near to you. Was that prior to the projectile you

9 just described or was it afterwards?

10 A. I can't remember everything exactly. There was shelling for 12

11 hours, continuous shelling and shooting. They would fire from rifles and

12 machine-guns and what have you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know whether it was prior or after the

14 shell you just described. Could I ask you, what did you feel

15 different -- did you have different experiences in respect of these other

16 shells which, if I do understand you well, contained other gases or was it

17 approximately the same?

18 A. I mentioned the blister gas and the tear gas. That's what I

19 experienced. I didn't say that I had experienced the effects of glycerin.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No, but the -- the events you just described where

21 you felt that it was itching and where you put something on your mouth

22 used water, was that blister gas or tear gas or mustard gas or how would

23 you call that gas?

24 A. I said blister gas and tear gas. I mentioned both those gases.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, was that in this one explosion that both gases

Page 15104

1 were affecting you?

2 A. Not after the same one. I don't know how many explosions there

3 were. I don't know if there were five explosions. But I experienced the

4 effects of two separate explosions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and what was the difference between the one

6 explosion and the other, in what you experienced?

7 A. I don't know exactly about the explosion. I said that we were

8 being shelled from all the directions --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. You told us exactly what you felt

10 after the projectile landed you told us about before, feeling the itch, it

11 did itch. Was that different from the other projectile?

12 A. Well, the second time I started suffocating. My organism, my

13 internal organs were falling apart. My head was splitting. I held on to

14 the trigger and I fired, that's all.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and on the other occasion of the other

16 projectile, you still don't know what was the first one and what was the

17 second one? Because it is not quite clear to me.

18 A. I said about the -- I mentioned blister gas and this all took

19 place within a few minutes, within a few seconds.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, how did you decide it was blister gas? I mean,

21 what do you know about gases?

22 A. Well, I learned something about it while I was in the army, while

23 I was in the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you get medical help afterwards to recover

25 from the effects of these gases?

Page 15105

1 A. Yes, after I left the position when the units arrived to help, I

2 went to the first house. And there was a clinic in the vicinity, in

3 Vraca, in Miljevci.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Was this a medical facility?

5 A. There was a small part, a small amount of medical supplies for

6 first aid.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Did they send you to a hospital, and to what

8 hospital, if so?

9 A. No. I didn't want to.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't want to go to a hospital. We will adjourn

11 until 5 minutes past 1.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, may I ask the specific attention

15 of the parties. If for the testimonies by videolink, if any exhibits are

16 needed they should be provided not later than next Thursday to the

17 Registrar. Is that clear? I see nodding. Everyone is nodding. For the

18 transcript, all the parties are nodding. Yes.

19 I have a few more questions for you, Mr. DP11. Did you report to

20 your superiors the experience you described before the break, that is,

21 that you suffered from gases?

22 A. Yes, to the company commander.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether anything -- whether it went any

24 higher up or do you know what consequences were drawn from your

25 experience?

Page 15106

1 A. I don't know.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next question is: Did you observe on the

3 other side of the lines, so that is in the BiH forces, did you ever anyone

4 to use gas masks?

5 A. No, I didn't, because of the smoke screen creating by the shells,

6 and it was very difficult to see anything. All you could hear were the

7 explosions, the shells.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever observe at all during the

9 conflict, the other party using gas masks?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then you told us during your examination

12 that you observed to see sniping coming from the other side of the

13 confrontation line, and that you needed these observations in order to

14 neutralise them. How would you neutralise or how did you neutralise

15 snipers at the other side of the confrontation line?

16 A. If it was necessary, the artillery would be used, too.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any -- so it was not -- was it your

18 unit or was it another unit that would use artillery to neutralise

19 snipers?

20 A. Well, in the unit I said we had a number of mortars and

21 anti-aircraft machine-guns, Pam, 12, 7, 12.7.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You would use these mortars to neutralise, if

23 necessary, the snipers; is that correct?

24 A. If our line was close to the Muslim line, we would use 60

25 millimetre mortars, and we would use snipers against snipers, heavy

Page 15107

1 artillery, et cetera.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You would use heavy artillery to neutralise snipers

3 on the other side of the line?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give me an example? Is there any specific

6 event in your recollection where you use heavy artillery against sniper

7 units or snipers? Do you remember what locations or you targeted with the

8 heavy artillery when you wanted to neutralise these snipers?

9 A. When killings occurred at the crossroads, when Miro Triskovic, who

10 was pregnant and had been married for 11 years, another four men of ours

11 died. We tried to get them out. On that occasion, we had to use heavy

12 artillery in 1994, on the 6th of January, 1994.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember where the sniper fire came from?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: From where did it come?

16 A. Debelo Brdo.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And you neutralised it by using heavy artillery?

18 A. Yes, a 40-millimetre gun, a Bofors.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember exactly where the victim of the

20 sniping incident you just mentioned was hit?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Where was that?

23 A. In the head.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I mean on what location.

25 A. Below the Bosut barracks at the cross-roads towards Sogbunar and

Page 15108

1 Ohrid Street, in fact Trebevicka Street below Debelo Brdo, about 50 metres

2 as the crow flies.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You say she was hit from a distance of 50 metres; is

4 that correct or...

5 A. Yes, as the crow flies.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you used artillery from where exactly then?

7 What distance would it be to the sniper nest from where the artillery unit

8 was stationed?

9 A. I don't know exactly. 2 or 3 kilometres. I didn't measure it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for these answers. These were all my

11 questions. I always hesitate to say that this concludes the evidence of

12 the witness.

13 You are standing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I just want to check

15 something in the transcript, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Could the witness take

18 his headphones off, please. I will be very brief.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't want to read out

21 everything. In the English transcript that I am looking at, that what I

22 would like to say is that the French transcript specifies that this victim

23 was a young woman who was pregnant. This person that we are speaking of

24 now who was allegedly hit by sniper fire.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

Page 15109

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I didn't see it in

2 that case. The question that I wanted to put, Mr. President regarded one

3 of the questions that you put to the witness concerning the restriction of

4 snipers by artillery, and if we are allowed to do so, I would like to be

5 able to show the document that we had, the photograph that depicts the

6 town of Sarajevo. With the Executive Council tower in it, et cetera. It

7 is somehow here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: What would you like to ask the witness?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, willingly. Sir, my

10 question is: On this photograph, there is a building which was seriously

11 damaged. We can see artillery impact, the traces of artillery impact.

12 And given the state of the building, given the extent of the damage

13 inflicted on the building, I would like to know whether this relates to

14 artillery fire which was necessary in order to eliminate sniper positions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I will allow you to put this question to the witness,

16 but then I would have one additional question before doing so.

17 Could perhaps the -- yes.

18 You just told us about the neutralizing of sniper nests, and you

19 gave us one example. Could you indicate precisely where that sniper nest

20 was and perhaps a bit more precise because I might not have understood you

21 perfectly well, when you answered that question. Where was that sniper

22 nest that you neutralized, the sniper nest that from where fire came that

23 hit, as the English transcript reads "a pregnant woman who had been

24 married for 11 years."

25 Where was that sniper nest exactly? Was it in a building?

Page 15110

1 A. Yes, I can. It was near the area of responsibility of the French

2 Battalion of UNPROFOR, very near them, about 20 metres from them.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but where exactly, what street, what building,

4 what side of the Miljacka river or -- it is not quite clear to me.

5 A. It wasn't in a street. It was on Debelo Brdo because I said

6 before in my testimony that the Muslims during the truce, when the French

7 Battalion UNPROFOR arrived, they dug through a hill - just a moment - they

8 dug a tunnel through the rock and they have put the snipers there.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So it was -- could you please -- could the witness be

10 provided with the map number 1778. And could you mark with a red pen and

11 a cross where the sniper unit was located that you neutralised.

12 A. It is approximately here. About here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put an "S" next to it.

14 A. An "S"?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, an "S." And could you also locate are the victim

16 actually was when she was hit by this sniper?

17 A. [Marks]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put a "V" next to that red cross.

19 A. [Marks]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Please

21 proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I only have one question.

23 Could we have on the ELMO the photograph in question with the assistance

24 of the usher, please. This is this photograph where we can see the

25 Holiday Inn and all the buildings.

Page 15111


2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank

3 you.

4 Further re-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you have shown us the tower, the

6 Executive Council, which I believe bears the number "1;" is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well. Witness, we see on this photograph the building -- the

9 structure and the front that was damaged?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. These damages, what are they linked to, please?

12 A. Because of combat operations. Because of the bullets, the

13 inflammable bullets. Because of the shells that were fired.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Why were these shots fired, do you think?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

16 MR. STAMP: That question, as phrased, is really an invitation for

17 the witness to speculate about the motives of a variety of people.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Just let me --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Rephrase.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase.

22 Q. Witness, do you know if there is -- do you know a reason, if there

23 is one, why was fire opened on this building?

24 A. Because of sniper nests.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.

Page 15112

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. STAMP: If it pleases you, Mr. President. In respect to

3 questions asked about the relative heights of the positions to the north

4 or south of the circle on Exhibit 1780, I would ask that the witness be

5 shown that exhibit again and if I may ask just a couple of questions about

6 that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

8 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

9 Q. Witness, do you see a horizontal -- a vertical line on that map

10 which is intersected by a number "93"?

11 A. Do you mean this line?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you refer to the colours, Mr. Stamp.


14 Q. There is a blue line going from top to bottom of the map. Thank

15 you.

16 A. This one.

17 Q. At the bottom of that line do you see the number "1080"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it abuts on to a circle, is that correct?

20 A. Could be called that, yes. You mean this?

21 Q. Yes. Now, is that circle a contour line -- well, first, do you

22 know what a contour line is on a map?

23 A. Hill?

24 Q. Yes. You are saying that that is a hill. Now, I am asking, do

25 you know what a contour line is on a map?

Page 15113

1 A. It's an elevation point, it's an altitude point.

2 Q. Do you see other contour lines going away from that hill in the

3 direction of the circle?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And to the north of the circle, do you see other contour lines

6 getting wider going towards where you see Cicin Han and the word

7 "cemetery" on the map?

8 A. This is the cemetery. There; not over here.

9 Q. Do you see the word "Cicin Han"?

10 A. Yes. Here. I can see it here, Cicin Han, yes.

11 Q. Do you see widening contour lines between the circle and the word

12 "Cicin Han"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would that indicate to you that from the circle to the direction

15 of Cicin Han, the terrain was generally sloping downwards?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP11, this concludes your evidence in this court.

19 I would like to thank you very much that you came and testified in this

20 court. I know it is quite a distance. I thank you for giving answers to

21 questions both -- of both parties and questions from the Bench. And I

22 hope that you have a safe trip home again.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Chamber,

24 the Prosecution and the Defence, to the General, who listened to my

25 testimony. I am glad that at least a part of the truth can be heard of

Page 15114

1 what happened. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of

3 the courtroom.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could we please be guided by you

6 through the documents.

7 THE REGISTRAR: D341, photograph, marked by witness; D331,

8 photograph, entrance to the Jewish cemetery; D1777, pseudonym sheet, under

9 seal; D1778, D1779, D1780, D1781, maps.

10 JUDGE ORIE: All these documents are admitted. D1777, under seal.

11 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: In respect of the next witness, the Chamber gives an

14 oral decision as to the protective measures that is granted as requested.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, perhaps I will repeat in closed session what

16 the name of that witness is so there should be no confusion. Please,

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, anything else?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We can call the

19 next witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please call the next witness.

21 And I take it that pseudonym and facial distortion are effective.

22 Pseudonym would be DP12? Ms. Pilipovic, it would be?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] DP7.

24 JUDGE ORIE: DP7. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The only thing I wanted to

Page 15115

1 say, Mr. President, is that we will need a few minutes at the end of the

2 session regarding translation problems, and I wouldn't want this to go

3 over time. So could we please bear that in mind. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, two minutes will do. Two minutes?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. DP7, because that's how I will call you, can you

8 understand me -- can you hear me in a language you understand?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony--

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to

13 make a solemn declaration they you will speak the truth, the whole truth,

14 and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that declaration,

15 which the text will be handed out to you now by the usher.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. Your testimony will take only a

19 few minutes today, and we will continue tomorrow. But then at least you

20 have already experienced how the courtroom looks like. So it will only be

21 have for a very short time today and then we will continue tomorrow.

22 Ms. Pilipovic, should we turn into -- perhaps first if we would

23 take the pseudonym sheet --

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will submit

25 the document, yes.

Page 15116

1 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, I inform you that protective measures have

2 been granted in respect of you, that means that your face will not be

3 visible for the outside world and your name will not be used.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, first of all, good afternoon.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Witness, you have a document before you where there is some

11 information, your name, surname, date of birth, your fatherís name. Is

12 that correct, the information written on the document in front of you?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, are we in closed

15 session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No we are not. We turn into closed session.

17 [Closed session].

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15117

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now. Please proceed.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 Q. Witness, you told us that in 1992 you worked at the

17 Kosevo Hospital?

18 A. Yes. Sorry.

19 Q. I am sorry, you said something?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Witness, you tell us throughout 1992, did you work all that year

22 in the Kosevo Hospital?

23 A. I worked until April that year. I don't exactly know which date

24 it was, which day it was.

25 Q. When you say that you worked until April, can you be precise? Was

Page 15118

1 it the first half of April, from the first half of April or was it the

2 second half of April, or the beginning of April?

3 A. It was until mid-April.

4 Q. When you say that you worked until mid-April, can you tell us, did

5 you leave your work or was there another reason why you no longer went to

6 work?

7 A. My first duty was 25 hours long because it is that kind of system

8 that I worked -- operated on. And during that last duty that I had, there

9 were some things that occurred which seemed very strange to me.

10 Q. Are you telling us that after that duty you no longer went to

11 work?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Could you be a little more precise, when you say "some strange

14 things." These strange things, were they the reason why you stopped going

15 to work?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is a

18 good moment to stop, considering there is a few minutes left.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. DP7, as I told you it will be only very

20 short, but at least you made a start by now. We will continue tomorrow

21 morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom. You are supposed not to speak with

22 anyone about the testimony you give in this court. We will deal for two

23 more minutes with procedural matters, and I will ask the usher to escort

24 you out of the courtroom and I hope to see you tomorrow morning.

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you needed two minutes.

Page 15119

1 [The witness stands down]

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It

3 could be even shorter than that, but I am just waiting for the witness.

4 Yes, thank you. Yesterday, we didn't have time to say it, but we have to

5 say it, and I will do it very briefly, bearing in mind yesterday's

6 pagination, in page 6, what is not in the transcript is the military

7 specialty, I am talking about the French transcript, in 18:21, I believe

8 that "inverted" could not have been interpreted as "bent" then a "fuse"

9 should not be a "cord." In page 9, we have something which in the English

10 transcript is a "quarry" and it could not be interpreted as a "department"

11 in French, but more than anything, there are two points that I want to

12 raise.

13 It is just that it seems to us that in both of the transcripts we

14 don't have the same thing, on page 59, in a sense that the witness who was

15 speaking at the time, he was speaking about the tanks that were firing

16 from the Hum hill, and this did not appear clearly in the transcript.

17 There was one thing that seems to be important to underscore is that we

18 are often -- we often hear things said about the Pam and Pat, P-A-M and

19 P-A-T. Once we will be able -- we will have to have precise meanings of

20 this. It was the Serbian booth that clarified this on one occasion, but

21 it would be good to know what we are talking about.

22 As far as the -- today's interpretation is concerned, I am afraid

23 that what I said this morning when I came in was not translated. I was

24 speaking about "genois," I was speaking about forewind, backwind and so

25 on. I was speaking about "urnes" and all the other things, does not

Page 15120

1 appear in the transcript. And neither does it appear now. So I suggest

2 on one occasion we can just base ourselves on the French transcript and

3 then just to translate it. That would be a lot easier. I have never

4 spoken of a formal aspect, I have only spoken about nominal form which is

5 a completely different thing. But as much as it is possible, we would

6 like to have a proper translation of what I am saying. Thank you very

7 much.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that the interpreters do the utmost

9 best to properly translate what whoever says in this court, and it is

10 inevitable that sometimes mistakes are made. That's what happens and we

11 will not change that, and I am confident that whatever observations you

12 make in this respect will be taken very seriously, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and

13 it might be necessary to continue doing this.

14 Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Two matters very quickly, Mr. President. In relation

16 to what my friend just said about Hum, it seems to be a complaint about

17 the French and English transcript, and seems to be directed to the sense

18 of meaning. I would not like there to be a change to the transcript

19 without the Prosecution having the opportunity to consider it and respond.

20 Secondly, since the beginning of the Defence case, the laptop used

21 by the Prosecution lawyers in court has not been capable of doing a full

22 text query search which causes us endless problems. We understand that in

23 the near future, the laptop will be replaced by a new one. I wonder if

24 something could be done in the meantime, because it does cause us problems

25 when we can't search the transcript beyond a particular day.

Page 15121

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that surprises me. That might mean that the --

2 not all the transcripts are loaded in the computer. That might be the

3 problem.

4 MR. IERACE: No, it is not, Mr. President. The button that one

5 presses to activate the full text query --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just, if it would be allowed, and if you would

7 press on the top the word "search" click on it, and then if you would then

8 take in the third category full text query --

9 MR. IERACE: And that is not in black indicating that it cannot be

10 accessed. We raised it with the technicians. I think I understand what

11 the problem is. I think the only solution is a different machine, perhaps

12 while we wait for a new machine.

13 JUDGE ORIE: What surprises me, it is the machine, it seems to be

14 a matter of the programme than of the machine because the machine hardly

15 ever decides by itself whether something lightens up or not.

16 MR. IERACE: True.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

20 the 6th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.