Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15716

1 Thursday, 14 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I understood that you would like

10 to address the Court for three minutes, but before giving you an

11 opportunity to do so, I'd first ask Ms. Pilipovic, at an earlier occasion

12 you said that the expert reports would be available early November,

13 although I would understand early November to be somewhere in the first 10

14 days. It is certain that if we are after the 15th, it could not be said

15 to be early November any more. Tomorrow is the 15th. Could you provide

16 us with some information.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, tomorrow I will be

18 going to Belgrade and I think that on Tuesday I will be able to provide

19 all the expert reports.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's then early in the second half of

21 November. Yes.

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good morning.

24 Thank you. And since we are talking about dates, this is the subject that

25 I want to address. Yesterday we saw that the Prosecution produced a copy,

Page 15717

1 a fragmented copy and with an inappropriate scale of a map, which was a

2 corps map. The reason for my intervention is the following: First of

3 all, we were not informed that this is how the Prosecution would proceed,

4 and secondly, having examined this map when we returned to our homes, so

5 to speak, we noticed, Mr. President, that all issues raised by the -- all

6 the questions asked by the Prosecution concerned the state of a line which

7 is outside of the time frame of the indictment.

8 I have submitted the original of this map to the registrar who has

9 it on her right, and I can provide copies of the legend, but unfortunately

10 in black and white of the key. If you have a look at the third part of

11 the key, the lower part which contains only red for the first part of this

12 interior part. It is a dark red and a slightly lighter red, if we have a

13 look at this map, if we open it at the part that was photocopied by the

14 Prosecution, we will see that the questions regarded the situation of a

15 line, the state of a line, which was on the 21st of August, 1994, which

16 prevailed on that date. So that is after the time frame referred to in

17 the indictment.

18 And what is more, Mr. President, Your Honours, the first part of

19 the key contains the yellow colour, too, and this yellow colour

20 corresponds to the development, development of the lines, obviously,

21 before they were fixed on this map in August 1994. I am well aware of the

22 fact that Prosecution only received black and white copies, but the

23 Prosecution knows, because we have seen many of these maps, the

24 Prosecution knows that these maps always have keys which are in colour,

25 and the Prosecution also knows, since I have written about this to them

Page 15718

1 many times, perhaps in an archaic language, but nevertheless, I did write

2 to them. They know that we are at disposition the of the Prosecution for

3 any problems that may arise as a result. If a map is provided without the

4 key, Mr. President, and without trying to check what the legend -- what

5 the key is and informing you of this, we consider that this isn't an

6 example of the best possible type of cooperation between the parties.

7 Nevertheless, we want to show via this map that all of the

8 questions asked by Mr. Ierace regarded the state of a line which was

9 outside the period of the indictment, the period referred to in the

10 indictment. And that is August 1994. This is something that we didn't

11 know at the time because we weren't able to remember, to have all these

12 maps in our memory. There were hundreds of them, perhaps. But everything

13 that was done, everything that was asked with regard to this line, ought

14 to be subject to modifications. It should quite simply be deleted from

15 the transcript.

16 And also, Mr. President, if we were told that these lines, even if

17 this is a document of ours, that these lines referred to such a time

18 frame, we would have immediately objected and I am sure that we have saved

19 precious time. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 Mr. Ierace, is there any reason to respond at this very moment.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I haven't seen the coloured map so it

23 is very difficult for me to respond. I haven't seen the coloured map --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Perhaps you look at it, yes,

25 perhaps now and not...

Page 15719

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this is an issue which needs to be

3 settled before cross-examination is concluded, and I will need the

4 assistance of a member of my team who is not here and who is not a lawyer.

5 I respectfully seek a 10-minute adjournment.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before adjourning, Mr. Ierace, could you tell

7 the Chamber what issues you had still in mind, because we asked yesterday

8 an assessment of the -- and perhaps, if we would adjourn we could use that

9 minutes to consider that as well.

10 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I would resist the suggestion

11 that the time taken for me to respond to this should come out of my

12 cross-examination. I can tell you that before this issue was raised, I

13 intended to take only a few minutes, but that may now change.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn for 10 minutes.

15 --- Break taken at 9.12 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 9.33 a.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, first of all, I indicated that you would

18 get 10 minutes, but the Chamber needed some time itself as well to start

19 considering the submissions made by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might I have access to the

22 map. I think it is with the accused at the moment. Mr. President, with

23 your leave, I'd like the map to be placed on the board so that the

24 Trial Chamber can see it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

Page 15720

1 MR. IERACE: This will take just a minute.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We might ask the Defence to look closer to the map at

3 a later stage as well, but let's first put it on the board.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you. Mr. President, it would save time

5 if Mr. Mundis could point out certain features as I speak. I anticipate I

6 will take no more than two minutes.


8 MR. IERACE: Whilst it is being prepared, I reiterate, we have

9 received only a black and white copy. On the top left-hand corner, the

10 map is expressed to indicate the date which is the 1st of July 1994. When

11 one goes to the bottom left-hand corner one sees a legend. The first

12 entry, as I understand it, effectively translates as confrontation lines

13 and the three colours are indicated yellow red and blew. When one looks

14 at the relevant part of the confrontation line which was a subject of

15 evidence yesterday, we see the same three colours. If one goes back to

16 the legend, one see a second group of colours indicated confrontation

17 lines as of the date of the 3rd of August, 1994. None of those colours

18 relate to the part of the confrontation line which was the subject of

19 yesterday's evidence. They relate to parts of the confrontation line

20 outside Sarajevo. The third and last entry in the legend is again a

21 separate group of colours, indicating according to the legend,

22 confrontation line as of the 21st of August, 1994. That third group of

23 colours also relates to a different part of the confrontation line, not

24 the part we were concerned with yesterday.

25 In other words, to the extent the document speaks for itself,

Page 15721












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Page 15722

1 where there were changes after the 1st of July, 1994, to the confrontation

2 line, those positions are indicated. None of the changes relate to the

3 part of the confrontation line which was the subject of evidence

4 yesterday. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just

7 like to approach the map because I think one needs good glasses to see it.

8 May I?


10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand what the

13 Prosecution says, Mr. President. I am not an expert in this field, in

14 maps and keys. The only thing that I can establish which is incontestable

15 is that in one version, as well as in the other, there is a yellow area

16 which is still indicated. We can see from a distance. Around these lines

17 and which corresponds, if I understand it correctly, to the area of the

18 establishment of the line, at the start of the conflict, and the first

19 date indicated in the key, which is, more or less, July 1994. And in the

20 copy that the Prosecution handed to us with this witness, through the

21 witness, the yellow area did not appear and, therefore, the witness was

22 somewhat, not misled, but he was in a situation where he couldn't really

23 see the map properly because he lacked this area. And I think that this

24 area, the yellow area, which is the area where the lines moved, is an

25 important element. Thank you.

Page 15723

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that what my learned colleague

4 has just said needs to be corrected. The significance of the yellow, it

5 is apparent from the map, is only to better indicate the position of the

6 confrontation lines themselves, which are indicated in the colours red and

7 blue. The yellow appears behind the red confrontation line. In other

8 words, from the red confrontation line radiating away under that side of

9 the confrontation line.

10 Essentially what we have here is a map made as of the 1st of July

11 1994 which was updated as the line changed. Thank you.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like this map to be produced in

14 evidence, the original one, so that we have the map always in its right

15 context and that all colours can be seen clearly on the map that is in

16 evidence, so that we don't have to work with black and white copies or

17 with bad copies.

18 And I think we are at a point where the -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a

20 problem here. We did not wish to tender this map for a number of reasons,

21 or rather we wanted to tender it but we couldn't because it was impossible

22 for us to copy this kind of document, and we needed to continue to work

23 with our witnesses and we can see how difficult it is to work on black and

24 white documents, people get lost and can't find their bearings and so on.

25 If we only have segments that's not going to be enough. It is a little

Page 15724

1 bit of a technical problem. We don't know how to copy this kind of thing

2 in a necessary format.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... That a coloured

4 copy will be available to the Defence so that they can further prepare

5 for, that's for sure, and that's a technical problem, and we will have to

6 solve that. I think that's fair to the Defence because without a good

7 copy of this map, they might have difficulties in repairing for the

8 presentation of their case.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the problem is of the

10 format, of the size. I think special equipment is necessary. I don't

11 think that's commercially available.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Special equipment or someone that -- I see that even

13 this map is already with some tape on it, and then to reconstruct the map

14 in such a way that it can be -- it can be used for the preparation of the

15 Defence. Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I would be grateful if the

17 Defence could now clearly indicate whether they accept that the

18 confrontation lines on the relevant part of this map, that is, in relation

19 to the parts the subject of cross-examination yesterday, are according to

20 this map as they were on the 1st of July 1994. I would be grateful for

21 that before I continue cross-examination.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will reply to

23 the question. No. No, for two reasons and the first reason is the scale

24 that I have calculated on this map, what the thickness of the lines is,

25 whatever the colour. One of the line is about 80 metres. I have spoken

Page 15725

1 to witnesses and even 80 to 90 metres, witnesses say it is a question of

2 life and death in combat. The second reason is this: That corps

3 maps -- Mr. Ierace, just let me finish, please.

4 MR. IERACE: It is a misunderstanding, Mr. President, which may

5 save time. I am not talking about the black and white map. In relation

6 to this coloured map, does the Defence now say --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I have just answered --

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... About the copy in

9 front of us. You were explaining that you would not accept the lines to

10 indicate with sufficient precision or at all, the confrontation line, as

11 they existed on the 1st of July 1994.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

13 second reason is --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please tell us the reason. Although the most

15 important thing is that you do not accept them. Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no, because we

17 did not wish to produce, to tender this map. And if the Prosecution wish

18 to have this map entered as a document, I will explain. The second reason

19 is that corps maps are less detailed in the information that they give

20 compared to the battalion maps. Corps maps give a very general view of

21 the problem, and they are, therefore, less precise as to what is known on

22 the level of the battalion. This is the reason why I said "no." These are

23 the two reasons, although I have been interrupted, I have managed to state

24 this. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say that there are maps more precise, I

Page 15726

1 think you are always in a position to tender them into evidence, and I

2 would like to add one thing. The differences between the markings on the

3 other map the witness did last Monday, I think it was, the difference is

4 with those markings and the confrontation lines as they appear on this map

5 with whatever position, is an issue that came up in cross-examination,

6 and, of course, could be the subject for re-examination, if the Defence

7 would like to do so.

8 Then I think we are at a point where we could -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Just one remaining matter, Mr. President.

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has referred to battalion maps. He has not given them

11 to the Prosecution. If he has them he is required to do so under the

12 rules of reciprocal disclosure.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have battalion maps, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I said

15 earlier --

16 JUDGE ORIE: I am just asking you a question, whether you have

17 battalion maps; yes or no, and then perhaps --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have them. But may I then ask you, you

20 said that these are more precise. What then is the source of your

21 information?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Militarily service in the

23 Swiss Army a fortnight.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that you say battalion maps in the

25 Swiss Army are more precise than the corps maps and that makes you --

Page 15727












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Page 15728

1 okay, if that is it, then it's clear to me. Yes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is my

3 personal military experience as well as that of the general who was able

4 to tell me this. But everyone knows that maps on the level of the

5 battalion are more precise.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we -- they are not available to us. I know

7 Judges that confiscate mobile telephones. Since it is not in the Statute

8 nor in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you need any technical assistance how to switch

11 off your mobile, I will gladly assist you for the future. I hope you

12 don't have to answer the call.

13 Then we are at a point where we could --

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, but might the map be taken down

15 first, before the witness comes in.


17 MR. IERACE: And to save time, for the benefit of

18 Madam Registrar, I will be shortly asking that the witness be shown

19 Exhibit --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the map should not be given to the

21 Prosecution at this very moment. But it is clear to the Defence, we'll

22 have to solve the practical problem and the map remains to be -- you also

23 could give it to the Registrar so that we together find a technical

24 solution for the copying of the maps since the Chamber, it is the ruling

25 of the Chamber that it should be produced in evidence.

Page 15729

1 MR. IERACE: And indeed, Mr. President, since we are not sitting

2 tomorrow or Monday --


4 MR. IERACE: Today might be a good time for it to go to the

5 Registry for it to be copied. I simply offer that. Yes, Mr. President, I

6 will shortly be showing the witness Exhibit --

7 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Yes.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the final copying may have to be

11 done somewhere else, and that perhaps we will look at it whether a

12 provisional copy of parts could be made at this very moment. But this

13 size cannot be handled in its entirety by the Tribunal, as far as I

14 understand. But we will take proper care of that. Perhaps during the

15 first break we will find out about what can be done today so that -- so if

16 the map could then be put in the hands of the Registrar.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The only problem is that, as

20 you know, we are sometimes working during the weekend, and this is a long

21 weekend because we have Friday off and we need this map so that we can

22 work with other witnesses.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... We will have to

24 see whether there are -- whether we can make provisional copies for the

25 short term, and a copy of the map in its entirety at the long run. And if

Page 15730

1 you would indicate -- because I do not know what parts of the map you

2 would specifically like to work on with your future witnesses, that if you

3 could give some guidance to the Registrar what are, at least, the parts

4 that you would need immediately, that would certainly assist the Registry.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, practically

6 speaking, it would be useful for us to have the entire map. This is just

7 for practical and technical reasons, because when we ask someone what they

8 know they saw, for instance, on Hum, it would be important the person

9 could tell us the distances, the ranges, and so on.

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... And we will do

11 our utmost best. Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness

12 into the courtroom again. Mr. Ierace, could you give us an indication as

13 to how much time you would still need? A couple of minutes or...?

14 MR. IERACE: A couple of minutes.


16 [The witness entered court]

17 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown D1789.

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I just first -- good morning, Mr. DP20. If this

19 court says 9.00, it is sometimes 10.00. We had to deal with a procedural

20 issue, but I thank you for your patience. May I remind you that you are

21 still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of

22 your testimony.

23 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS DP20 [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 15731

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

2 Q. Good morning, Witness, the other day you were asked by the Defence

3 some questions about some settlements. Please place -- please look at the

4 map when it is on the ELMO.

5 MR. IERACE: At this stage we only have a black screen,

6 Mr. President. Yes, thank you. And could we see in greater enlargement

7 the portion of the map immediately above the name "Sarajevo" which is in

8 bold type. If you can manipulate the map. Thank you. That will do.

9 Q. I would like you to point out on the map some of those

10 settlements, first of all, Sedrenik.

11 MR. IERACE: Can the map please be moved so that Sedrenik is more

12 to the centre. All right.

13 Q. Would you please take the blue pen and underline the name

14 "Sedrenik" on the map, which is where you have pointed.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you. Perhaps a bit bolder. Underline it again.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you. And you were also asked some questions in relation to

19 Kobilja Glava. Would you point to the position of Kobilja Glava on the

20 map, if you can.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Thank you. Would you underline Kobilja Glava.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. You were also asked some questions about Slatina. Can you find

25 Slatina on the map.

Page 15732

1 A. This feature, this locality is unknown to me.

2 Q. Do you remember that the other day you were asked what the

3 distance was between Slatina and Sedrenik?

4 A. I do remember, but I didn't answer because at that time I didn't

5 know what locality that was.

6 Q. Didn't you say: "Well, Slatina and Sedrenik, Slatina is closer,

7 it is closer in relation to Kobilja Glava, perhaps 1 to 2.000 metres, as

8 the crow flies, isn't that what you said?

9 A. No, I didn't say that. I didn't speak about Slatina because it is

10 unknown to me.

11 Q. All right. If you look at the map above Kobilja Glava, do you see

12 the name "Slatina"? Do you see that? Yes. Would you underline that,

13 please.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And Kromolj, do you see Kromolj on the map?

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Thank you. Underline that.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you. Is Zuc on the map?

20 A. I don't think it can be seen here.

21 Q. Is Zuc further to the left? In other words, beyond the lefthand

22 boundary of the map, and, therefore, unseen; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Mr. Piletta-Zanin is there

Page 15733












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Page 15734

1 any need to re-examine the witness?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, in fact there is. If

3 that's possible, could we have the map in colour so that the witness can

4 have a look at it with the assistance of the usher, please. [In English]

5 Map to the witness, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Are we going to fold it to the part on which we have

7 the excerpt or do you want the whole map? Because then we have to put it

8 on the...

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to

10 present the area that we are interested in, that is the area around

11 Sedrenik, that is the area, the segment that was photocopied. But perhaps

12 I could do it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you would determine the exact portion, then we

14 could try to fold the map, but we have to be very careful with it because

15 there might not be...

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I say in advance that I object

17 to any form of leading in relation to this re-examination. If I say that

18 at the outset, my position will be clearly understood.


20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please put the map a

22 little more to the left so that we can see the other side. That's fine.

23 Stop there. Thank you.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, the question I have for you is the

Page 15735

1 following. Could you take a pointer and put it on the demarcation line,

2 on the red demarcation line that you can see to the north of Sedrenik.

3 No, to the north of Sedrenik. More to your left, please. More. That

4 should be there, that's right.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Thank you. I am referring to the width of the trace of the line.

7 Witness, given the scale of the map, the scale of the map that you should

8 be familiar with, what does this represent in metres? What does the width

9 of the trace represent in terms of metres, the width of the trace that you

10 have -- of the line that you have under the pointer.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Your question assumes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that the

12 witness is aware of the scale of the map. As far as I know, this has not

13 been established yet. So please first verify that there will be no

14 confusion. Yes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, willingly.

16 Q. Are you familiar with the scale of this type of map, Witness?

17 A. This is one to 25.000.

18 Q. Very well. Given the scale that you have mentioned, and I am

19 asking for an approximate figure, what does the thickness of the line, of

20 the two red lines represent, the red line that you pointed to a minute

21 ago?

22 A. Well, if the thickness, it's about 250 metres in reality, if the

23 line is about 5 millimeters wide.

24 Q. The thickness of the line, is that right?

25 A. The thickness, yes.

Page 15736

1 Q. Thank you very much. So if I have understood your testimony

2 correctly, the position of the line --

3 MR. IERACE: I object to leading, Mr. President.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. -- Indicates that --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I haven't finished my question

7 yet.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please not lead, not in this question, not

9 in any of the questions.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Q. Witness, in your opinion, this way of marking the line, is it a

12 sufficiently precise of marking a line on this type of a map; yes or no?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, in the way that the line is used on the scale

15 of the map, given the scale of the map, is there a possibility of making

16 an error, given these factors; yes or no?

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I appreciate that Mr. Piletta-Zanin

18 does not have a common law background, but that is still a leading

19 question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: It is a leading question, but if the witness would

21 say that errors are impossible or whether the witness would say that

22 errors are possible, if you ask whether human beings can make mistakes or

23 can make errors, whatever the answer is, it's general knowledge from

24 everyone that sometimes errors are made by human beings. So I don't know

25 whether the question and the answer to it would assist the Chamber

Page 15737

1 greatly.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will move on to

4 another series of questions. I accepted the remarks that Mr. Ierace made.

5 Q. Witness, is it -- is precision more possible, is it possible to be

6 more precise in maps that are called -- I will withdraw that.

7 Do you know whether there are maps at the level of a battalion,

8 whether there are battalion maps?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Witness, what is the scale used for battalion maps, if

11 you are aware of this?

12 A. One to 25.000.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether battalion maps, maps established

14 at the level of the battalion, do you know whether they are made in a more

15 precise manner than maps that are established at the level of a corps?

16 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you tell us how maps are made on the

18 battalion level, who makes them?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The officers who are in the

20 battalion command.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Are these specialised officer whose are specially

22 assigned to make these maps?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Making maps is one of their duties.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us whether you know anything

25 about the equipment used to mark maps, that is, pens or other

Page 15738

1 equipment -- I do not know all the technical words for this. But filth, I

2 think the word "filth liners" is used. Do you know anything about how

3 this is done on both levels?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please tell us how exactly it is done.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A map is made when the commander of

7 the battalion works, it is more precise, because it concentrates on a

8 smaller part, and it is easier to make to correspond to the reality on the

9 ground. Buildings can be marked more precisely in a smaller zone, that's

10 why I say it is more precise. There is a lot of equipment for making

11 maps, felt tips, 0.5 millimeters which can be used in the final phase, and

12 the 5 millimetre felt tip which was used to make this map with.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a difference on the battalion level or is

14 that the same on the battalion level, the equipment used to mark on maps?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The equipment is more or less the

16 same.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 Q. With your pointer, could you concentrate on --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether we could

21 zoom out. I don't know whether the technical booth can assist us. That's

22 fine. That's fine. Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, in the right-hand corner there is a site, it is a symbol,

24 a sort of a cap with two other red symbols in the interior. Could you

25 point to that symbol.

Page 15739












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Page 15740

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this question does not relate to

2 cross-examination. The symbol does not appear on the map that was shown

3 to the witness yesterday. And in effect, this is introducing new

4 evidence.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. Please proceed,

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,

9 this symbol appears in the map.

10 Q. Witness, do you know what this symbol represents?

11 A. It represents an anti-armoured attachment at a firing position.

12 Q. When you say "an anti-armour group" there are two red symbols

13 inside, in the interior, do you know what they represent? Could you

14 please answer the question by saying yes or no, Witness?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. IERACE: I object. I object to leading.

17 JUDGE ORIE: During the examination-in-chief, yes or no questions

18 are not the usual way to put things to a witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So

19 the witness, please answer the question.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. This was to save

21 time, Mr. President.

22 Q. But do you know what these two symbols represent?

23 A. It is a symbol for anti-armour weapons.

24 Q. Do you know what weapons are concerned?

25 A. Yes, I do. It is a recoilless cannon, 82-millimetre recoilless

Page 15741

1 cannon, and then anti-armour cannon, a 100-millimetre anti-armour cannon.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Which army corps do these two weapons belong

3 to? When you say "corps," I mean, which section, which body, which body

4 of the army did these two weapons belong?

5 A. They belonged to the artillery.

6 Q. Thank you. I would now like you to examine, Witness, on the right

7 of your screen and to the east of the word "Sarajevo" could you point to

8 an identical symbol, on the map, please.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Thank you.

11 What does this represent?

12 A. It is the same symbol. It is the symbol for an anti-armoured

13 attachment at a firing position.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, these weapons, do they belong to the same

15 section, the main -- the same body in the army?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Witness, I would now like you to point --

18 MR. IERACE: Again I object to leading, Mr. President. That last

19 question was leading, and what applies in examination-in-chief in my

20 respectful submission applies in re-examination as well. I appreciate

21 that this has gone well beyond re-examination and is in effect, in my

22 respectful submission, further examination-in-chief.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will put that

24 differently, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

Page 15742

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied, please proceed,

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, you now have a symbol which is not that clear. I would

6 like you to put your pointer more to the left of the map. It is a red

7 symbol, and it's in a circle which is also in a type of an ellipsis. It

8 is slightly above the "K". Stop, stop.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. In the middle of the screen, upwards to the left, could you put

11 your pointer more to the left, to the left, Witness. That's the right.

12 Further up. Further up. Stop.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. You've got a symbol here and there is something inscribed in the

15 middle, and two red marks, to the right and to the left of what is

16 inscribed. Could you have a look at these two red inscriptions, Witness.

17 Can you tell us what these two red symbols correspond to on the

18 map?

19 A. This indicates the firing position of a brigade artillery group.

20 Q. Thank you. Could you repeat your answer, please. I am not

21 sure -- that's fine. That's fine. There was some additional information

22 coming from the French booth, but as far as the English transcript is

23 concerned, everything is fine.

24 When you say an artillery group, Witness, what do the two symbols

25 represent? What do they correspond to?

Page 15743

1 A. The red symbol indicates the weapons which are part of the brigade

2 artillery group. In this particular case it is 120-millimetre mortar and

3 a Howitzer.

4 Q. Very well. Witness, since you mentioned a 120-millimetre mortar,

5 could you indicate, could you point to the symbol that represents a

6 120-millimetre mortar.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Very well.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the sake of the

10 transcript, the witness pointed to the symbol which is to the left of the

11 marking.

12 Q. And, Witness, I am assuming that the other symbol

13 represents -- could you please tell us what it represents?

14 A. It represents a Howitzer.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you now have a look at the

16 key on this map. I can provide you with a copy.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In order to save time,

18 Mr. President, I'll have to unfold the map. The copy conforms to the

19 original.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Black and white, I heard this morning, looking at the

21 legend in black and white might be a problem. But if you think you can do

22 with the black and white copies, so that the colours are without

23 relevance, then please proceed and we will see where we come.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it was only a problem

25 concerning dates, but that has been solved. Thank you, usher.

Page 15744

1 Q. Witness, could you please have a look at the first line in the

2 key. Could you read it out to us, please, so that we can have it in the

3 transcript.

4 A. "Contact line."

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness said that the contact

7 line for the yellow, red and blue lines which are on the screen.

8 Q. I would now like you to read the key for the third line.

9 A. "Contact line on 3rd of the 8th, 1993."

10 Q. Thank you, Witness, according to your military experience --

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as translated, that date was the 3rd

12 of the 8th of 1993. That should be 1994, I think.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes, could you repeat that, please, Witness. Could you repeat --

15 could you read the line at the bottom.

16 A. In the third line it says: "contact line the 21st of August

17 1994."

18 Q. Thank you very much. Given your military experience and with

19 regard to the date on which this map was produced, what can you tell us

20 about the last date, when you read the text, when there are modifications

21 or when additions were made to this map?

22 A. I don't quite understand the question.

23 Q. Witness, when one is adding something or modifying a map in

24 chronological order, as this appears to be the case, does one take into

25 consideration all the necessary elements, that is my question?

Page 15745












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15746

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would now like you to go back to,

3 after having said that this map was made on the 21st of August, 1994,

4 could you turn back to the previous part --

5 MR. IERACE: I object --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

7 usher.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: I invite you, Mr. President, to read the question as

10 translated.

11 JUDGE ORIE: As the reads in the transcript, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it

12 says something about the date of production which is not, as far as my

13 recollection goes, the evidence of the witness. Would you then please ask

14 the witness to repeat his answer -- no. If your words are wrongly

15 translated, then please repeat your question. If you --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll reformulate my question.

17 Q. Witness, now that we have established that additions were made to

18 this map, at least on the 21st of August, 1994, and given your previous

19 answer, I would now like you to examine the part which we are going to

20 show you now, that is to say, the one that we had a minute ago on the

21 screen.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Usher, could we have a look at

23 the upper part of the map which is to the right, just slightly to the

24 right of the map. That's fine, thanks.

25 Q. Witness, stop. Thank you. Could you point to the zone where the

Page 15747

1 village of Mrkovici is on this map.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Mrkovici. Thank you.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Witness pointed to the

5 map --

6 Q. Witness, in immediate surroundings of Mrkovici that you have just

7 pointed to, can you see when background of the -- whether there is a

8 symbol in the background of the Mrkovici area which represents an

9 artillery position.

10 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, on the basis that this,

11 again, does not arise out of cross-examination. Not to mention the fact

12 that it is leading.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the map came up for the first time,

14 especially on this portion during the cross-examination. The Chamber has

15 required to produce this map, and if there is any clarification, it could

16 be given by this witness on this map, the Chamber will allow it. Not

17 primarily because this all has been covered by the cross-examination, but

18 since the Chamber deems it fair that if it orders the production of a map,

19 that if there is any additional question to be put to the witness in this

20 respect, that the Defence is allowed to do so.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if you could

22 indicate at this stage whether the Prosecution will have an opportunity to

23 ask this witness questions about the map.

24 JUDGE ORIE: These are new questions, and I gave you the reasons

25 why we allowed the Defence to examine the witness on these issues. And

Page 15748

1 since this is more or less examination-in-chief rather than

2 re-examination, the Prosecution will have an opportunity put questions in

3 respect of those issues covered by the Defence at this very moment.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.

6 Mr. President, I want to state the following: The Prosecution produced

7 the map for incident 5, that's this map here, and we want to clarify

8 matters by referring to a bigger map. So I think this is correct.

9 Q. Witness, could you answer this question: In the area of Mrkovici

10 or in the background of the area of Mrkovici, can you see on this map a

11 symbol of any kind that might represent an artillery position of any kind?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Could you carefully examine this map and to

14 go a few kilometers towards the rear, to the north of Mrkovici, have a

15 look there and I would like to ask you the same question for the area

16 which is a few kilometers to the north of the Mrkovici area.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Further up. And my question is the same one, to the north of

19 Mrkovici, is there a firing -- is there an artillery position that might

20 be symbolised on the map?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would now like you to have a very

23 careful look at this map. And could you point to the following names:

24 Greda, if you can find it.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 15749

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to the

3 lower right-hand corner to the largest rectangle in the zone.

4 Q. Thank you very much. I just have to check a name. Just a second.

5 And could you please point further to the right, could you point to the

6 place called Barice.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness

10 the document that we had a look at yesterday, and which concerns the

11 Markale incident number 5, and then we will have a break afterwards.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] These are the well-known maps

14 that we saw yesterday, and which regard the incident number 5.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]...

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can't remember the

17 number offhand. I apologise.

18 MR. IERACE: It was inappropriate to mention the name.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you should have referred

20 to a number of an incident, but to nothing else.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right. I apologise.

22 That's right. Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, can you recognise the map on -- to your right? I am

24 simply asking whether you can recognise it, Witness?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15750

1 Q. Witness, could you take your pointer and indicate Greda on this

2 map, and point to this map which concerns incident number 5.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. This is unfortunately outside of the screen.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Yes, that's perfect. The witness has indicated a point up on the

7 map where the dotted lines go. Now, the same exercise for what we

8 indicated to be Barice earlier, please.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness has indicated an

11 area outside of the dotted lines to the right of the dotted line.

12 Mr. President, I think we could have the break now.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you need?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. It will only be a

15 few minutes.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at some stage might I raise an issue

17 of relevance in relation to a name that has been mentioned, in the absence

18 of the witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness

20 out of the courtroom. I will give an opportunity to raise the issue to

21 Mr. Ierace and then we will have a break.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: Yes. The questions in relation to Greda, perhaps the

25 relevance of that could be explained.

Page 15751












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15752

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Yes, I will explain this,

4 Mr. President. We could see that how difficult it was to compare the maps

5 when they are of different scales and, sometimes has been enlarged by the

6 Prosecution. What I wanted to do is to give two reference points that we

7 could find easily on the map. I did not want this witness to draw a

8 trajectory, but what we can do with these two reference points is that the

9 trajectory at the 18.7 degree shows on the HQ map that we have explains

10 the position that on the 21st of August, 1994, there was not a sign of an

11 artillery battery being present there. And what I wanted to do is by

12 explaining these two pieces of information on the HQ map that we have here

13 on the map for selected incident number 5, and comparing with the HQ map,

14 there isn't a single battery position, either in the area of Mrkovici or

15 in the surrounding area of Greda. I have even also given the name of

16 Barice outside of this area, and this is where the relevance lies. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 10 minutes past 10.00.

19 Then Mr. Piletta-Zanin uses a couple of more minutes to finish the

20 examination of this witness, and then do you have any indication how much

21 time the Prosecution would then need?

22 MR. IERACE: Not sensibly at this stage. I should think 15

23 minutes or so but I haven't yet completed my preparation in view of the

24 questions asked. Might I have access to the map over the break,

25 Mr. President.

Page 15753

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you take care that Mr. Ierace

2 has access to the map. If the Defence would need to look at the map as

3 well, the Chamber has a picture before it that two parties are leaning

4 over and looking at the same map.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I appreciate the picture that you

6 have, but --

7 JUDGE ORIE: You understand what I mean. If one of the parties

8 needs it, I would rather have no fight but cooperation so that everyone

9 can look at the map as good as possible.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful for the

11 opportunity to take it from the courtroom to consult with others. I don't

12 know whether the Defence does in fact need access to it over the break, if

13 not, there is no problem.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Once you are ready with it, would you please return

15 it to the courtroom.

16 MR. IERACE: I will.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

18 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, I

22 have to remind you that we never had the occasion to work on the originals

23 with General Galic for, obviously, reasons of availability, and that we

24 wish to have a look on the map with General Galic, if in general, we could

25 look at it. Now, the idea to have the map here, that would mean that we

Page 15754

1 could go take it to the cell and come back, that would be a good idea.

2 And thank that that would advance the cooperation between the parties.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you mean after the Prosecution has finished its

4 work on the map?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I fear that

6 will last a long time with the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Further time

8 later on to discuss the map with General Galic, then you are given an

9 opportunity. At this moment, the situation is that the map has been in

10 the hands, the original, for at least some time. I take it that

11 disclosure of parts of the map are done when, approximately?

12 MR. IERACE: That was in black and white A4 sheets, in September

13 this year.

14 JUDGE ORIE: September this year. So at least already for some

15 two months in the hands of Defence. So it is now first the Prosecution

16 can look at it, and then if needed, you can discuss the matter with

17 General Galic.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. During the following break, the parties will

20 not have the map at their disposal because it is needed to consult with

21 the reproduction department. We will have a break until 10 minutes past

22 11.00.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Should be dealt

25 with with everyone standing, please tell us.

Page 15755

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Except that Mr. President,

2 what I wanted is to have the rule respected. Considering that this will

3 be tendered into evidence, the rule has always been that the parties will

4 not leave with what will be given as proof, as evidence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I have considered this and I -- let me just...

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Where as a general rule the chain of custody would

8 require not to give such a map out of hand, the -- just as the Defence can

9 have the map for discussing with General Galic, the Chamber is convinced

10 that it is such an effort to copy such a map, that we do not think that

11 the parties could do that within the next half hour. So there is in this

12 specific moment not a risk that anything would happen or that it would be

13 altered. That would be easily detected, and apart from that, to replace

14 it by another map of similar size is almost unimaginable. We will adjourn

15 until 10 minutes past 11.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.43 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom

19 again.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 Q. Witness, I'd like to go back, not to the maps that we looked at,

24 that we examined, but on the points that were raised in cross-examination

25 of yesterday, and to do with the area of Sedrenik and what we call the

Page 15756

1 Sharpstone feature. Do you remember that we spoke of this?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know -- I withdraw that.

4 What can you tell us about the frequency of fighting in this area,

5 first, generally speaking?

6 A. There was fighting on a daily basis.

7 Q. When you say "on a daily basis," Witness, can you tell us give us

8 an indication, not on the frequency, but of the scale of the fighting?

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, objection.


11 MR. IERACE: Relevance in the sense that it doesn't arise out of

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes. Well,

15 perhaps the witness could take off his earphones.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that might not be enough. Could you ask,

17 please, the witness to leave the courtroom for a second.

18 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, we have a

20 number of incidents that are to do with the area of Sedrenik, and that are

21 to do also with the sharp rock feature. During the cross-examination

22 Mr. Ierace questioned this witness for a long time about the position of

23 the red circle, the position of the troops and so on. Now, what the

24 Defence would like to be able to prove is that every day, including the

25 dates of the incidents number 8, number 3, which were the sniper

Page 15757












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15758

1 incidents, there were frequent combats, that is, there was frequent

2 fighting because this was to do with the question of stray bullets.

3 Because the witness told us with a lot of precision that the range was 4

4 or 5.000 metres. So there would be exchanging of fire, and more there are

5 such exchanges, more there is a chance of stray bullets.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is my recollection right

7 when the intensity of combat, one of the examples specifically dealt with

8 on the 24th of July was raised in chief, and that the matter of stray

9 bullets, I remember a question, what would be the effect of a stray

10 bullet, would it be any different from a bullet that would hit the object

11 targeted were dealt with relatively extensively in chief.

12 So I take it that the -- that in cross-examination --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- It was an issue that was not newly raised. I will

15 allow you one or two questions in this respect. Yes, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it wasn't raised at all in

17 cross-examination, stray bullets; and secondly, this witness said that the

18 first time he went to that area was after the conflict when he drove along

19 a road near it. So the proper basis --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, that is the intensity of fighting in that

21 area might not be exactly the same as going with your car to a road which

22 ends somewhere at -- somewhere where -- I don't know for what reason it

23 ends there, but it ends there. Let's -- we have to keep in mind that what

24 do we lose by allowing one or two questions, and what do we lose by a

25 fierce fight on this kind of question. But, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

Page 15759

1 self-restrictions, of course, a thorough examination of whether the issue

2 was raised in chief would be highly appreciated by the Chamber. Yes.

3 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. So that

6 we can advance, could we please put back on the ELMO P3278. This is to do

7 with incident number 3 to start with. It is the map that we know well by

8 now, and also, Mr. President, in order to save time, what we would like to

9 indicate now would be valid, mutatis mutandis, for incident number 8 which

10 is of the same character from the technical point of view.

11 Thank you, Madam Registrar. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, could you please focus on this map that you can see.

13 Could you please put the pointer or point with a pointer on the red

14 circle.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness has done just

18 that.

19 Q. Now, could you put it below the green line, wavy green line and

20 follow the light green lines.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Yes, thank you. You can follow it.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Witness, could you please indicate with the pointer in which

25 direction where exchanges of fire happening on -- from both sides, when

Page 15760

1 they were taking place in this area?

2 MR. IERACE: I object.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: The basis hasn't been laid for that question given

5 the witness's evidence as to when he first went to that part and where he

6 was stationed.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please have the basis laid,

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 Q. Witness, according to your knowledge of the area and your personal

11 experience, did you know in which direction were soldiers firing, those

12 who were defending at the same time the light green line and also the area

13 which is located around the dark green line?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Could you then indicate in which direction where

16 exchanges of fire were taking place? Could you do it with a pointer,

17 please.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Thank you. Very well.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness first indicated

21 from the light green undulated area, a certain number of directions going

22 more or less to the north, and then from the other direction as well, and

23 the same thing from the upper area, but this time with the firing or

24 shooting going in the southerly direction, southern easterly direction,

25 and southern westerly direction. Thank you very much.

Page 15761

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that doesn't properly describe the

2 actions of the witness with the pointer. In relation to the firing from

3 the dark green line to the light green line, the action of the witness

4 stopped around the area of the light green line. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask you, because I asked you,

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to lay a foundation, and would you ask the witness

7 whether he knew anything.

8 Looking at the red circle, during the conflict, have you been at

9 that position? First of all, were you ever stationed there?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever visit that position?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: How often did you visit that position?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you exactly. On

15 several occasions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is "several" less than ten, more than ten?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More than ten.

18 JUDGE ORIE: More than ten. Under what circumstances did you

19 visit that position? What --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This position is located

21 approximately at the linking point between my battalion and the

22 neighbouring battalion. So these visits happened so that we would

23 establish closer links, better connection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you were at these positions, was there

25 combat activity going on?

Page 15762

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometimes, yes, there was; sometimes

2 there wasn't.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is the foundation the

4 Prosecution asked for. That's different from just asking, "do you know

5 it?" That is not a foundation.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

8 Mr. President.

9 Q. Now, Witness, now on the basis of the foundation that we have just

10 been given --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in brackets the

12 Prosecution raised the point of my description, but I believe that my

13 description was correct. Do I have to do it again for the transcript?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you ask the witness again. It was not quite

15 clear to me what he pointed at, so, therefore, whether it is correct --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, on the basis of your knowledge, what we are interested in

18 are the shooting, the firing during fighting that came originating from

19 the dark green area. Could you, again, point with the pointer and show us

20 the direction of these shooting, as you have already done so.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Yes, and continue.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Thank you. Very well.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So the witness has indicated

Page 15763












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Page 15764

1 several areas of firing, going from the north to the south, from the north

2 to the south-east, and from the north to the south-west. For the

3 south-east, I think I could say that that direction was Sedrenik.

4 Q. Now, Witness, the weapons that were used during combat, during

5 fighting, were these weapons -- no, I withdraw that.

6 What were the weapons used during this fighting?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: The Trial Chamber is minded to allow this, and in any

9 event on the basis of what already is permitted, I seek the opportunity

10 for further cross-examination in relation to it. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Q. Witness, what were the weapons used?

14 A. Infantry weapons that I have already mentioned.

15 Q. Very well. Could you please remind us the range, the ranges of

16 these weapons, very briefly, and general.

17 A. The range of the weapons depending on the type, that would be from

18 4 to 5.000 metres and some of them up to 8.000, even.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you didn't give the answer to my

20 first question which was the following: You spoke about the frequency of

21 the combat on a daily basis. Now, what was in terms of scale, can you

22 tell us something more about the engagements and the fighting, the scale?

23 A. The intensity, the scale differed, depending on the situation,

24 specifically in this area, in the greater area here, there were high

25 intensity fighting and combat.

Page 15765

1 Q. Thank you. Witness, according to your personal experience, when

2 there is ratherly considerable high intensity fighting, what about the

3 possibility of what we call stray bullets? What is the probability that

4 they will occur?

5 A. There is a high probability of that occurring.

6 Q. Witness, since these maps are not very precise in terms of scale,

7 according to your experience of the locations, could you tell us what was

8 the distance between the red point number 3, could you please find it with

9 the pointer on the map to your right. Just below. Below. Yes.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. But we can't see it. Just a moment. Here it is, yes. So between

12 this point and the red circle, what was the distance, more or less?

13 A. I can't tell you exactly on this map. I can't quite find my

14 bearings, but up to 2.000 metres.

15 Q. Very well. Witness, you see a second red dot which is to the

16 north of the dot that you mentioned.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness is pointing

19 to it. This is the dot next to number 8.

20 Q. Between this dot and the circle, between this point and the circle

21 what was the distance?

22 A. According to this it would be perhaps some several hundred metres

23 closer to the red circle.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you tell us since you testified

25 yesterday that the green line wasn't precisely your position, could you

Page 15766

1 indicate what is, as much as you can recall, the position of your lines in

2 this area, that is, to the north of the map that you were presented with?

3 Could you please indicate that with a pointer.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the technical booth, could

5 you please help us to have a look at the entire map.

6 Q. Have you understood my question?

7 A. Yes, I have, but --

8 Q. Could you do that again, please. Could you retrace it?

9 A. The part that I know for certain, I can't indicate it here, but I

10 will show you this.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to

13 simplify matters, we are going to provide copies of this map, black and

14 white copies, and this will be Exhibit number -- now, perhaps, I need the

15 assistance of Madam Registrar. D17 --


17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. And the witness can use a black felt tip and mark the line as it

19 appears. And we would like to mention that this map is only a copy of

20 what we were provided with by the Prosecution.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- And on this light

23 modification has been made.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. Mr. Ierace, you said you would

25 need only a couple of minutes. Please proceed, and conclude your

Page 15767

1 examination now in a couple of minutes.

2 Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: I don't follow, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I am sorry. I am sorry. Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I have

5 to apologise. It was just -- you see how equal the parties are for this

6 Chamber.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will certainly need a lot more than

8 a few minutes. The reason I rose to my feet --


10 MR. IERACE: -- Is to seek access to the map. Because as I

11 understood as what my learned colleague just said, it is not a photocopy

12 of the map which is presently on the ELMO. So I would like to see it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If I could just see the both of them --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. Mr. President, it is a

15 photocopy of this map, but at the time we introduced a modification that

16 one of the witnesses had made, one of the witnesses that had been heard,

17 and it was nothing else. It was a standard copy.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I see it is a...

19 Mr. Ierace, the map produced now is a map without the marking of

20 the witness, but on it the marking of someone else, but same position,

21 same type of marking.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, could you please take a black felt tip and as far as you

25 can remember this, could you please trace what, in your opinion, could

Page 15768

1 have been the positions, what the line could have been in this area.

2 MR. IERACE: "What could have been the positions" that is

3 unacceptable, Mr. President, in my respectful submission. That is not

4 reliable evidence.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I said what the lines

6 could be, that's what I said in French. That means that I don't know what

7 that could be.

8 JUDGE ORIE: What the -- it would assist the Chamber, although it

9 is marked perhaps on other maps as well, where the positions were.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the purpose of my

11 question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That is not the language of your question. Could you

13 please mark where the positions actually were as you indicated before on

14 the coloured map. Yes, would you please do it.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, you stopped above the Grdonj inscription. Why didn't you

18 continue to the left?

19 A. Because I am not sure. That wasn't my zone any more.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

22 Mr. President. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

24 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ierace:

25 Q. Sir, before you mark the map --

Page 15769












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Page 15770

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before

2 interrupting Mr. Ierace, I would like to stress that I have to leave, I

3 have to go to Geneva about 12.00 or 12.15. I hope this will not be a

4 discourtesy on my part, if I do so, with your permission, of course.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I take it then as always the full responsibility is

6 in the hands of Ms. Pilipovic. Please proceed.


8 Q. Before you marked this map you were twice asked to indicate with

9 a pointer where the front line was. On both of those occasions, you

10 passed your pointer through the circle. Do you agree with that, that

11 that's what you did?

12 A. I was asked to show the directions in which fire was exchanged, if

13 I am not mistaken. I apologise. Yes, I did.

14 Q. No, no. You were asked to indicate the positions, the position of

15 the front line, and on both occasions you passed your pointer through the

16 circle in response to that question, and I will repeat, on two separate

17 occasions. Do you agree that that's what you did?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. But when it came time to drawing the line, you didn't do that.

20 You didn't pass the line through the circle. Why?

21 A. Because the trench line followed the path that I marked and here

22 forces were present in this circle, that is not in dispute, but it was a

23 prominent point. We soldiers call it "combat security."

24 Q. So you say that your forces were present in the circle, but the

25 trenches were behind the circle; is that what you say?

Page 15771

1 A. Yes. The line, the main defence line followed the path that I

2 indicated, and in this part we had a point which was a prominent combat

3 security point.

4 Q. What was at that prominent combat security point? What exactly

5 was there in that position, exactly, let's say in mid-1993.

6 A. It consisted of a certain number of men who were first engaged in

7 fighting, who observe.

8 Q. Observers, men engaged in fighting. What weaponry did they have

9 at that point in mid-1993?

10 A. Nothing in particular. People would be designated from the units,

11 so for a certain period of time they are taken to the front here, part of

12 them were taken to the front here, and part of them were taken to the

13 front -- at this position, the people changed.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The question was what weaponry they had. You give a

15 lengthy answer, but not about the weaponry. Could you please answer the

16 question.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they had the same weapons that

18 the other men in the unit had, so automatic rifles, light machine-guns, it

19 depended on the man, the soldier, who was there at the time. It depended

20 on the weapon he had been issued with in the unit.


22 Q. What was the nature of the facility at that point? Was it a

23 dugout, a trench? What was there in the way of protection at that

24 particular point, that observation point?

25 A. Trenches had been dug.

Page 15772

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. I

2 don't think that this type of question arises from what we -- from the

3 subjects that we addressed.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have been rather liberal to the Defence.

5 Prosecution may ask these questions specifically since the Defence asked

6 to draw the line on this map.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


9 Q. You say that it was an observation point --

10 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

11 Q. You said the trenches had been dug, it was an observation point.

12 What optics did the observers use, binoculars?

13 A. I didn't say it was an observation point. It wasn't an

14 observation post, but part of the combat assignment of the unit was combat

15 action and combat security.

16 Q. Sir, it was a forward position, you've told us, beyond the

17 trenches, and in relation to your evidence yesterday, on a high point, on

18 the escarpment. It was used for observation, wasn't it?

19 A. You observe from all positions. A soldier observes from all

20 positions, including this one, but it wasn't there for this particular

21 purpose.

22 Q. It overlooked Sedrenik, didn't it?

23 A. Part of it, roughly speaking. I can't indicate it exactly here,

24 but a small part of the periphery of Sedrenik could be seen, and this part

25 here is a forest area.

Page 15773

1 Q. Sedrenik was beyond the front line, wasn't it, beyond --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the sake of

3 the transcript, Mr. Ierace should say where the witness mentioned the

4 presence of forest.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness pointed below an area just below the

6 red circle, a bit right, more to the north of where it is written

7 "Sedam Suma."

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. IERACE: I withdraw the previous question.

10 Q. When you travelled to the observation point, how did you get

11 there?

12 A. There is an interconnecting trench in one part, and since there is

13 a forest behind, this part was sheltered.

14 Q. Was the road behind the trenches used for providing -- for

15 supplying that part of the front line?

16 A. It wasn't necessary to use it for any particular kind of supplies

17 because people would be changed. They were there for a certain period of

18 time, but I don't know exactly because this didn't concern my unit.

19 Q. The road was used, wasn't it, by the SRK forces in that area?

20 A. I don't really understand the question. What do you mean?

21 Q. The road behind the front lines was used by vehicles belonging to

22 the SRK; isn't that correct?

23 A. It is the road through Mrkovici, it was used, yes.

24 Q. Do you remember yesterday I asked you if you had ever been on that

25 road, and you said "no." Do you remember being asked that question and

Page 15774

1 giving that answer?

2 A. I don't remember that, sir.

3 Q. All right. I will read you the question and the answer.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness is

7 confused. Could we ask the witness to indicate on the map --

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, we first -- we are not going to interfere at this

9 very moment.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, on my transcript it is page 78 of

11 yesterday's LiveNote commencing at line 8.

12 Q. Now, have you ever travelled on that road ever? And at that point

13 you had your pointer on the road. You said: "Yes, after the Dayton

14 Agreement." Next question: "All right, I take it you did not travel on

15 that road before the war?" Answer: "No."

16 "Q. And when you went there after the Dayton Agreement to the

17 right of the road -- withdraw that -- did you leave the road and walk

18 around the area at the end?"

19 There was then an interruption. The question was repeated and you

20 said: "No, I only drove down it.

21 "Q. Why did you drive down it," and I think you said "Mrkovici,

22 because it was necessary."

23 Do you remember I asked you those questions yesterday and you gave

24 those answers?

25 A. I agree, sir, but right now obviously you don't know the story and

Page 15775












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Page 15776

1 we are not referring to the same road at all.

2 Q. But you had your pointer, when I asked you those questions, on the

3 road which appears behind where you have marked the confrontation line,

4 didn't you?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not precise, this entire

8 series of questions. I object because there are several roads behind the

9 trench line and this could have created confusion.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if Mr. Piletta-Zanin cares to consult

11 the transcript, I think he would be left in no doubt that the pointer was

12 on the appropriate road, if he doesn't remember it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

17 for the suggestion that was made to me. With regard to this, the

18 witness's answer was that he was speaking about the road that goes towards

19 Mrkovici, and we can see that this is not the one that Mr. Ierace was

20 thinking of, but it was the other one which goes in the direction of the

21 north.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have the evidence of yesterday clearly in my mind.

23 I have the evidence of today clearly in my mind. There might be confusion

24 as to the roads. So, therefore, Mr. Ierace, I don't think it will greatly

25 assist the Chamber to continue on this specific issue.

Page 15777

1 Please proceed.


3 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that yesterday you conveyed the impression

4 in your answers that you had not been to this area during the conflict.

5 What do you say to that?

6 A. I don't think that is correct. I wasn't there all the time, but

7 occasionally I did go there.

8 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown D1789. Might the ELMO

9 zoom in on the part of the front line marked by the witness, if that could

10 be centred on the screen. Yes. A bit too far, I think. Yes, that's

11 good. A bit further. Thank you. Thank you.

12 Q. Now, do you remember yesterday I asked you to mark the front line

13 beyond your area of responsibility. Do you remember I asked you to do

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you remember that at my request you placed a dash across

17 the front line to indicate where your responsibility ended, and you then

18 proceeded with a blue pen to show us where the front line was, as far as

19 you could recollect. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you please point to the area that you marked. Place your

22 pointer on that extension.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 MR. IERACE: Witness does that.

25 Q. Would you please now point to Grdonj on the same map.

Page 15778

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Does Grdonj appear -- thank you.

3 MR. IERACE: The witness now points to Grdonj.

4 Q. Would you please now point to the road that was behind the

5 trenches at Grdonj.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Are you unable to do it?

8 JUDGE ORIE: In your view, are you pointing at the road you were

9 asked to point at? I understand --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The road I am pointing at now goes

11 from Grdonj to Mrkovici.


13 Q. Point again to Grdonj.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. To the north-east of the pointer, indeed due north of the pointer,

16 do you see a dead-end road, approximate -- thank you.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. You now point to the dead-end road. Please keep the pointer still

19 at the dead end of the road. Thank you. Sir, that is the road which

20 appears in the map which you have just marked behind the trenches; do you

21 understand that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. I suggest to you that the front line, as you have

24 marked it on this map, bears no resemblance to the front line as you have

25 marked it at the invitation of the Defence a few moments ago on map 4,

Page 15779

1 number 3. Do you agree or do you disagree?

2 A. I can't fully agree with that since the maps are different, and

3 the scales used are different.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. DP20, what Mr. Ierace is asking

5 you that where you marked on the map only recently the trenches or the

6 defence line south of the dead-end road, that on the other map the defence

7 line of your army is close to Barice and north of that dead-end road. And

8 he asks you whether you agree that there is a difference between the lines

9 you've drawn on the map we have on the screen and the line you have drawn

10 on the other map at the request of Defence counsel.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a difference.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Now, you told us that you went to that part of the front lines, I

15 think at least ten times. Sir, I suggest to you that sniping was carried

16 out from that area. What do you say to that?

17 A. I say that isn't so.

18 Q. I suggest to you, indeed, civilians were shot from that part of

19 the front line. What do you say to that?

20 A. I am saying that from that area or from any part of the front line

21 that I know, civilians were not targeted, but whether they were hit, I

22 don't know that.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. I

24 believe that the question of snipers has never been phrased, has never

25 been asked at any point during examination.

Page 15780

1 MR. IERACE: Do you wish me to respond to that, Mr. President?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes, first of all, in examination-in-chief we had

4 evidence as to the range of rifles, we were told of the significance of

5 the two dates of the documents shown to the witness, and you might recall

6 what I said about that in the absence of the witness yesterday, the

7 significance of those dates. In re-examination, if one could call it

8 that, rather than re-examination in chief, Mr. Piletta-Zanin has asked

9 this witness as to the distance on this map between the circle and point

10 3, the direction of fire and so on. The Defence has in all but name asked

11 multiple questions on sniping, and now the reason I ask it snow is for the

12 first time we hear from the witness that he was there in fact there at the

13 relevant period, that is, the area of the circle. It wasn't brought out

14 in chief. It wasn't given in cross-examination, but left to

15 re-examination. And that's why it is appropriate to now cross-examine

16 this witness about sniping from that point during the conflict.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been answered, meanwhile. The

18 objection is unfounded. Please proceed.


20 Q. Sir, were you asked a few moments ago about where the firing was

21 from the SRK front line in that area, and you indicated towards the south.

22 Of course, the direction of fire, if the ABiH front line was being

23 targeted, was downwards from the escarpment, wasn't it?

24 A. In the direction of the trenches, of the BH Army trenches.

25 Q. Yes. In other words, if troops on your side were firing at the

Page 15781












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Page 15782

1 ABiH positions, their rifles, their machine-guns, were pointed down, not

2 parallel with the earth, but down the escarpment; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, always in the direction of the enemy.

4 Q. Yes. Now, did you understand there were civilians living in

5 Sedrenik during the conflict?

6 A. No. I was not informed about that. Logically it would be that

7 considering that Sedrenik was close to the front line, this area should

8 have been evacuated. It shouldn't contain any civilians.

9 Q. Leaving aside what should or should not have happened, logically,

10 did you not understand that there were civilians living in Sedrenik?

11 A. No, I don't know. What do you mean "logically"?

12 Q. It was obvious to you, that's what I mean, sir, that civilians

13 were living in Sedrenik during the conflict?

14 A. No, not in any way. It wasn't obvious.

15 Q. Has anyone ever informed you before today that there were

16 civilians living in Sedrenik during the conflict?

17 A. No, nobody.

18 Q. Is this the first time that it has been suggested to you, that

19 there were civilians living in Sedrenik at the time of the conflict?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President. I

21 object. The question, the way it is phrased, is much too general.

22 Sedrenik is a wide area, and it would be good to have it --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Said with precision.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The reference to Sedrenik has been used several

Page 15783

1 times. It -- the question may be put as such to the witness.


3 Q. Sir, I take it today is the first time that that's even been

4 suggested to you; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, more or less so, because I never discussed with anyone

6 before.

7 Q. Are you surprised to hear it?

8 A. Yes. In a way, yes.

9 Q. Sir, when you went to that trench area and looked out over

10 Sedrenik, do I take it that you believed that the only people below you

11 were combatants, the only people in Sedrenik; is that what you are saying?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do I, therefore, take it that anyone you saw, as far as you were

14 concerned, was a lawful target, someone you were entitled to shoot and

15 kill in Sedrenik?

16 A. When I was watching, I never saw anyone else but soldiers in

17 uniform and that not in Sedrenik, I never saw anyone in Sedrenik, but next

18 to the front line, closer to us.

19 Q. All right. You say you only ever saw persons who were soldiers.

20 Do I understand you to be saying that you never saw anyone in Sedrenik,

21 not even soldiers?

22 A. In Sedrenik, no.

23 Q. Did you see vehicles travelling through Sedrenik?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. From this area, Spicasta Stijena, one has panoramic view taking

Page 15784

1 in, not only Sedrenik, but also the eastern part of the city, that's

2 correct, isn't it?

3 A. You see more the opposite side, opposite the mount of Trebevic,

4 that would be the other side of the Miljacka river, all the way across

5 there.

6 Q. And you see everything in between, don't you, including the old

7 part of the city?

8 A. Well, not quite.

9 Q. Sir, did you see any part of the Old City from there, according to

10 you?

11 A. You could see the lower part -- I don't quite know. I can't tell

12 you quite precisely which area I mean.

13 Q. Do you agree with me it was important for you to know what areas

14 were occupied perhaps by civilians and what areas definitely were not?

15 A. Yes, but at that time I couldn't have had such information.

16 Q. Well, let's be clear on this. You say that at that time you

17 couldn't have had such information. Did you have information to the

18 effect that there were no civilians in Sedrenik?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where did the information come from?

21 A. From the people who followed that. They didn't see any civilians.

22 Q. Sir, did it come from your superiors?

23 A. No, from the soldiers who were there.

24 Q. So the soldiers stationed at that part informed you that there

25 were no civilians in Sedrenik; is that correct?

Page 15785

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Well, I take it they told you that they shot at anyone they saw;

3 is that correct?

4 A. That's not correct.

5 Q. All right. They may not have said that to you --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. This

7 type of questions is very subjective.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Conditional hypothesis and so

10 on.

11 MR. IERACE: I don't know that there is a high degree of

12 hypothesis, Mr. President, but the question has been answered. I am happy

13 to move on to my next question.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: I will.

16 Q. Now, sir, you came to the trenches, they told you there are no

17 civilians in Sedrenik. It followed from that, did it not, as a matter of

18 simple logic, that anyone in Sedrenik, as far as they were concerned, was

19 a proper target; is that not correct, sir?

20 A. No, that's not correct, sir.

21 Q. All right. Why isn't it correct?

22 A. Because you can tell a soldier and a civilian apart.

23 Q. If you -- I withdraw that.

24 From where you were stationed, did you ever shoot at soldiers with

25 a rifle or a machine-gun?

Page 15786

1 A. No, I did not. I went there on a different business.

2 Q. Anywhere on your part of the front line did you personally ever

3 shoot at soldiers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you ever shoot at someone you believed to be a soldier who was

6 not in a uniform?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why not? Because the opportunity never presented itself or

9 because you preferred to only shoot at persons wearing uniforms?

10 A. I only fired at people who were in or within --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object. I believe that the

12 term "to prefer" is not proper the way that this has been said,

13 "preferred" I believe that is a completely shocking, the way that it is

14 negatively been used.

15 MR. IERACE: [Previous translation continues]...

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


18 Q. Sir, why did you not shoot at persons who weren't wearing

19 uniforms?

20 A. No, I didn't have the need to do that.

21 Q. Do you mean that you never saw anyone on the other side of the

22 confrontation line within range at any stage during the conflict who

23 wasn't wearing a uniform; is that the situation?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. If you had seen someone, an adult let's say, a male, not in

Page 15787

1 uniform and within range on the other side of the confrontation line, in

2 your opinion would they have been a lawful target?

3 A. If he is in the area --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. I

5 object. There is no precision in this question.

6 MR. IERACE: [Previous translation continues]... In court having

7 regard to the last two or three objections by my learned colleague, that

8 the witness not be in court during the expression for the reason of the

9 objection.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied. Please proceed,

11 Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't give

13 you my explanation for the objection.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... The question was

15 not precise enough, and the objection is denied because the precision of

16 the question does not oppose to --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I? May I

18 tell you exactly what I mean in the absence of the witness?

19 MR. IERACE: I am happy to rephrase the question, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

21 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

22 Q. Did you ever receive any orders to not shoot people who weren't in

23 uniform?

24 A. Relatively often we received orders not to fire at civilians.

25 Q. Sir, listen to the question carefully: Did you ever receive an

Page 15788

1 order to not shoot individuals who were not in uniform? I will rephrase

2 it.

3 Did you ever receive orders to only shoot people who were in

4 uniform?

5 A. Only people in uniform and with weapons, bearing weapons.

6 Q. All right. So your orders were that even if a person was in

7 uniform, if they weren't bearing weapons, then you were not to shoot them;

8 is that the case?

9 A. No, that's not right. I think, generally speaking, a person

10 either in uniform or with weapons or with both. For me, that is a

11 soldier, that is something from the opposing side, the enemy, who should

12 be fired at.

13 Q. Now, did you ever receive those orders in writing?

14 A. Personally, no.

15 Q. Did you ever see such a written order?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I think the answer was yes. I haven't heard the translation. Did

18 you say, yes, that you have seen such a written order?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Who issued it?

21 A. The superior command.

22 Q. Do you mean your battalion commander?

23 A. I saw it at the battalion command which means that the battalion

24 commander received this written order from the brigade command.

25 Q. All right. Now, in relation to this order, if you saw a person in

Page 15789

1 the distance who was not wearing a uniform and who was not clearly

2 carrying a weapon, would you have shot at that person?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, I come back to the view from Spicasta Stijena. You've told

5 us that you understood there were no civilians in Sedrenik. You've told

6 us from the same position you could see the city. Where did you draw the

7 line? In other words, what part of that view did you regard to be bereft

8 of civilians, and what part to contain civilians, if any part?

9 A. I can't divide it in terms of sections of view. I can say that

10 next to the BH Army line, that was without civilians, that is how I

11 considered it. And then further on away from the defence line of the

12 BH Army, I think that that area contained civilians. That will be the

13 central part of the city.

14 MR. IERACE: Might the earlier map be placed on the ELMO, that is,

15 I think it is the one for incident 3, the colour version.

16 Q. Sir, do you remember that you were asked questions about the

17 distance from the circle to a point marked 3 on the map and you said that

18 it was up to 2 kilometers away, do you recall that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where that point 3 was, do you regard that -- I withdraw that.

21 Was the position of point 3 where you believed there to be

22 civilians, and where you believed there to be no civilians? I think you

23 now have the map in front of you.

24 A. I believe that this is part of the area of the BH Army defence and

25 consider that there were no civilians there.

Page 15790

1 Q. And to be clear on this, I am asking you about the point on the

2 map, perhaps you can point to it, which is marked with the number "3."

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Please follow the line south-west from that square to the red dot.

5 No.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What about south-east, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: I am sorry, south-east. Thank you. The witness now

8 has the pointer on the red dot indicated as number 3.

9 Q. Was that in a civilian area or a noncivilian area?

10 A. I believe that this is the area of the defence line and that there

11 were no civilians there.

12 Q. And the red dot above it, please point to that.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Is that the same, that you believed that to be in a noncivilian

15 area; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And your belief is based on what you were told by the troops who

18 were in the area of the red circle; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown the large map opened at

21 the area on which he was re-examined, that's the coloured map which has

22 come from the Defence, the very large one.

23 Q. Now, on this map we see various symbols for artillery; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15791












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15792

1 Q. And do you understand this to be a corps working map as in the

2 Sarajevo Romanija Corps working map?

3 A. It could be.

4 Q. Do you understand it to be a working map for the corps staff, and

5 if you have any doubt about that, perhaps the map can be opened up and the

6 witness shown the top left-hand corner.

7 MR. IERACE: I am not sure if the witness has already seen that.

8 Q. Have you earlier seen the heading of this map, its title?

9 A. No, I have not. This is the first time I am having a look at this

10 map.

11 MR. IERACE: If very quickly the map could be opened up so we

12 could view the top left-hand corner.

13 Q. Sir, would you please read out the title of the map.

14 A. "The working map of the headquarters" -- do I have to read on?

15 "Started on the 1st of the July 1994 and further on" there is nothing

16 more.

17 Q. The reference to headquarters, do you understand that to be the

18 corps headquarters rather than a brigade headquarters or a battalion

19 headquarters?

20 A. Considering this size and the area covered, I think this is the

21 headquarters of the corps.

22 Q. Now, in relation to the symbols we see for artillery, that is

23 artillery for the brigade or for the corps, not the battalion; is that

24 correct? Not the battalion level.

25 A. Yes.

Page 15793

1 Q. So, for instance, we don't see on this map 120-millimetre mortars

2 which were held by the battalions, do we?

3 A. Here you can see the mortar indicated 120-millimetre over there.

4 I don't know which unit it was part of, to whom it belonged.

5 Q. All right. Please place your pointer on the part of the map that

6 you are referring to when you answered that last question.

7 A. I said this here, this is the symbol for the mortar.

8 Q. Leave your pointer in that position.

9 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, the witness

10 indicates a part of the map to the north of Sarajevo where there appears a

11 more or less as cigar shaped box with red symbols and some Cyrillic

12 writing in the middle.

13 Q. Sir, please read the writing in the middle?

14 A. Brag. B-R-A-G.

15 Q. It stands for "brigade" doesn't it?

16 A. Gate, artillery group.

17 Q. In other words that indicates brigade artillery, not battalion

18 artillery, doesn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So when you earlier said that here we see a mortar, that's a

21 brigade armament, not a battalion armament, isn't it, or a corps

22 armament -- I withdraw that. It is a brigade armament because that's what

23 it says, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So we don't see on this map mortars attached to battalions, only

Page 15794

1 brigade mortars and corps mortars or corps artillery, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So if the battalion had mortars at Mrkovici, we wouldn't see it on

4 this map, would we?

5 A. I think that the battalion ones are not placed in unless they were

6 part of the artillery group of the brigade, which is possible.

7 Q. Precisely. Now, the point of this map is to assist the corps

8 headquarters in understanding the front lines over the entire area of

9 responsibility for the corps, and its assets at a brigade and corps level;

10 is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, what would you say was the distance from the symbol that you

13 pointed to earlier, the 120-millimetre mortars at the brigade level from

14 the centre of Sarajevo, just approximately? Are we talking 50 kilometers,

15 20 kilometers, or perhaps 10 kilometers?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you, to answer this question. I do not

17 wish to give you any incorrect answers. I don't have any means to

18 measure, and I don't know this terrain that well so that I would be able

19 to give an answer from my experience.

20 Q. Well, not that well, but you did spend the entire war slightly to

21 the right of that entire area, didn't you?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. And firstly, the symbol on the right-hand side, what does that

24 indicate? Mortar on the left, what's on the right?

25 A. You mean this one?

Page 15795

1 Q. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness answered that question already,

3 Mr. Ierace.


5 Q. The artillery and mortars are at Poljine according to the map, in

6 that area, correct?

7 A. That's what it says.

8 Q. Poljine is less than 20 kilometers from the centre of Sarajevo,

9 isn't it?

10 A. I think that is so.

11 Q. The heavy weapons exclusion agreement, have you ever heard of

12 that?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. When did that come into operation?

15 A. I don't know exactly because I was not much involved to do with

16 this agreement because I was in the infantry, and this agreement was to do

17 with the artillery.

18 Q. All right. Now, I want to move you very quickly around the

19 circumference to the right. Could you please use your pointer to indicate

20 lines if they appear that denote the boundaries of the individual

21 brigades, in particular, the northern line for your brigade.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence objects.

24 Bearing in mind the answer of the witness to the questions that proceeded

25 this question, which is yesterday, and I would like to, therefore,

Page 15796

1 object. Considering the witness has earphones, there shouldn't be any

2 problems.

3 Your Honour, perhaps the witness could take his earphones so that

4 we can -- I can explain the objection.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't agree that the witness should

6 remain in court for the objection, even if they don't understand English

7 entirely. But I do press the question, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is not quite clear to me. So I have to

9 ask the witness to leave the court for a second.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were questions

11 yesterday asked by my learned colleague of the witness DP20 in terms of

12 the brigade lines. And now I can't be very precise, but I know for sure

13 that the witness said that he didn't know the lines of the brigade because

14 he -- although he did know the lines of the battalion. Yesterday when we

15 discussed the map and when the witness was marking on the map --

16 JUDGE ORIE: I feel that there might be some confusion. I take

17 it, Ms. Pilipovic, you are referring to the confrontation line of the

18 brigade and where the witness stopped and said "I do not know much further

19 to the west." Is that what you are referring to?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes, he said he didn't

21 know.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that your question is about the northern

23 boundaries of the brigade, Mr. Ierace, is that correct, so not the

24 confrontation lines?

25 MR. IERACE: No.

Page 15797












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15798

1 JUDGE ORIE: So there seems to be some confusion. You are

2 referring to something different. The questions yesterday are not the

3 same subject as the question Mr. Ierace is putting to the witness at this

4 very moment. But perhaps, Mr. Ierace, the question could be put more

5 clearly because if Ms. Pilipovic is confused, the witness must be confused

6 as well.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, precisely, yes.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness had indicated the

9 appropriate marker by the time Madam Pilipovic was making her objection.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I missed it then. Can we first ask the witness to

11 come into the courtroom again and perhaps you ask him to do it again,

12 because sometimes I have to pay attention to more than one person

13 MR. IERACE: In relation to future objections it doesn't assist

14 that the witness takes off his headphones given that he speaks the same

15 language as Madam Pilipovic, unless Madam Pilipovic makes her objection in

16 a non-Serbian language.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I never asked you to learn any French and I'll never

18 ask Ms. Pilipovic to learn any other language as well. Could the witness

19 be please brought into the courtroom.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this comment

21 wasn't appropriate, the one made by my colleague. I am just trying to

22 avoid any difficult situations, since we have been in difficult situations

23 before. I am quite aware of the reasons.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It certainly was not necessary. Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Just on that, Mr. President, I did not mean anything

Page 15799

1 critical of my friend at all. There might be a misunderstanding as to the

2 reason I made that observation. It related to any future objection, and

3 the pointlessness of removing headphones, that's all.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think the Chamber accepts that Mr. Ierace did

5 not want to express any nasty feeling and Ms. Pilipovic neither did, so

6 please proceed.


8 Q. Witness, would you please point to the boundary as it appears on

9 this map of your brigade on the northern side of the city.

10 A. I can't point to it because this is the period when the battalion

11 was part of the 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade. In fact -- well, I

12 apologise. To the north, that means in the depth, if I have understood

13 you correctly. Or are you referring to the ring around Sarajevo.

14 Q. Sir, just before you left the courtroom, you pointed to a line.

15 Would you please place your pointer back on that line.

16 A. I didn't point to anything.

17 Q. All right. Do you see on the map there are some red broken lines

18 that intersect the front line in the north-east of the city, in the

19 vicinity of the portion of the front line that you had responsibility for?

20 A. Is this what you are referring to?

21 Q. Yes. Does that indicate the boundaries -- do those lines indicate

22 the boundaries between the brigades of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

23 A. No, these are the boundaries between the battalions from within a

24 brigade.

25 Q. Are there lines on the map that indicate the brigade boundaries?

Page 15800

1 Sir, if it saves time, I am not trying to trick you, I suggest that you

2 have made a mistake and that those lines indicate the brigade boundaries.

3 If you look further along to the right, if you follow the confrontation

4 lines, do you see the next such line is to the south of the city?

5 A. I don't understand what you want me to indicate, what I am to look

6 at.

7 Q. I am suggesting to you that those red broken lines are the

8 boundaries of the brigades. In your case, we see the boundaries of your

9 brigade of the Romanija Brigade. If you don't know that, please indicate

10 that and we will move on.

11 A. Yes --

12 JUDGE ORIE: It is time for the break anyhow, Mr. Ierace. I think

13 we will adjourn until 1.00. But could the map -- is the map -- the large

14 map, is it somewhere here that I can have a closer look to it during the

15 break. Yes. We will adjourn until 1.00.

16 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

18 be informed of when I can be provided with a copy of this map because I

19 haven't been told yet.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Taken to the

21 reproduction so that we can see what can be done today, is that correct,

22 Madam Registrar?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I need only one minute for the map, yes. We will

25 adjourn until 1.00.

Page 15801

1 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.10 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, a full copy of the map will be

4 produced tomorrow. If there are specific parts you would like to have

5 copied, but then only small parts, we can see what we can do this

6 afternoon. But the full map will be copied by tomorrow. There will not

7 be copies for the Prosecution. There'll be no copies for the Bench. The

8 original is with the Registrar. But what could be done is to have copies

9 on a disk so that we can consult them. But printing of these maps is

10 extremely expensive, and, therefore, a copy of the map -- a printed copy

11 of the map will be provided to the Defence who needs it for further

12 preparation.

13 MR. IERACE: Could I make a suggestion, Mr. President.


15 MR. IERACE: The relevant part of the map, that is the part that

16 shows Sarajevo, I imagine that wouldn't be expensive to have multiple

17 copies --

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you are talking about this part or perhaps the

19 three or four portions, I take it that that can be done. It only problem

20 is you easily damage such a map. And it is already put together, but we

21 will see what can be done.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, finally what kind of copies will be made,

24 perhaps they will be made of that copy still to be produced. But we will

25 see what we can do and do it as good as possible. But tomorrow your full

Page 15802

1 copy will be produced.

2 Then, could the witness be brought into the courtroom again.

3 Mr. Ierace, how much time would you still need because the Chamber would

4 like to finish with the witness today.

5 MR. IERACE: About -- no longer than 10 minutes, Mr. President,

6 probably not longer than that

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because we will have some questions so would you

8 please try to be as efficient as possible.

9 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but could you tell me

11 when the map will be ready tomorrow so that my associate can come to

12 collect it and who should we report to?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ask Ms -- ask the Registrar after the hearing because

14 she doesn't know it now and we have to find out. Please proceed,

15 Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President, might the witness be shown

17 the map.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. IERACE: The portion that shows Sarajevo. Might I have access

20 to the map? It might save some time. Mr. Usher, if I could have a look

21 at the map. I will point out to Mr. Usher the parts I will be referring

22 to.

23 Q. Witness, on the map we see on the north of the city some boxes

24 containing some blue writing, in particular, three boxes with writing.

25 Would you please read what appears in the top left-hand box. And please

Page 15803












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15804

1 read it slowly. No, the box to the left of the pointer. Thank you.

2 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the top left box.

3 Q. Would you please read it out.

4 A. I apologise. I am trying to, but I can't really do so.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. It is not very clear.

7 Q. Can you read the writing in any of those three boxes?

8 A. Here it says: "Security department."

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you know that if there is any need to

10 confer with General Galic, then it should be done at a low volume and you

11 should --

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The General only asked me if

13 we could zoom into the photograph, into the -- if we could zoom in and

14 perhaps zoom into this part and it might then be possible to read what it

15 says. I apologise.


17 MR. IERACE: All right. For the benefit of the transcript, we now

18 have enlarged on the screen the top left blue box of the group of three

19 north of Sarajevo.

20 Q. Sir, can you read it?

21 A. "Security department," the first word I think or the first

22 number, perhaps it is "2," perhaps it says "2010 men" but this in front of

23 the letter "C" I am not sure whether I can make it out.

24 Q. In the interest of saving time, we will stop there. But do you

25 agree that having regard to the lines connecting the boxes to other boxes

Page 15805

1 on the ABiH side in Sarajevo, these boxes with blue writing appear to

2 refer to places and facilities and military resources in Sarajevo on the

3 ABiH side?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. IERACE: Would Mr. Usher please bring up on the map the second

7 area I indicated I would be going to. Thank you.

8 Q. Do you now see on the map and in particular on the screen an

9 irregularly shaped, four-sided box with three letters and one number

10 written inside it.

11 MR. IERACE: And for the transcript, this appears to the right of

12 the city.

13 Q. Would you please point to it with your pointer.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. I think we see four symbols in red. Could you tell us

16 what each of those symbols depict? What type of military equipment?

17 A. This isn't very clear to me. I can't say exactly, but they

18 represent artillery, but I can't tell you what artillery pieces exactly.

19 Q. All right. Would you please read the writing which we see in the

20 box.

21 A. "Kag," K-A-G, 1.

22 Q. And does Kag 1 stand for corps artillery group one?

23 A. Yes, it does.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. Usher, would you now please take us to the third

25 indicated area. A bit further down. The brown box. Thank you. If you

Page 15806

1 could move it so we can see where the line going from the top left-hand

2 corner of the brown box connects. Further. Further. Further.

3 Q. Now, sir, do we have here a box with some information and a line

4 connecting that box to Lukavica? Please point to the line connecting the

5 box.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Thank you. And does that go to Lukavica?

8 A. Well, I am showing this now, up to Lukavica.

9 Q. Would you please read what appears in the brown box, and whilst

10 you read it, perhaps the ELMO can be adjusted so that the contents of the

11 box are enlarged. Could you please read that out so that we can hear it.

12 A. The first word is "department for security." I am not sure that

13 that's what it says, though. The second and third lines, I can't read

14 them at all. The last line it says "IDO, Bijeli Vukovi, White Wolves."

15 And the rest I can't read it.

16 Q. Rather than read it on the screen, you might be able to read it

17 right off the map.

18 A. "Department for security and intelligence affairs, six to seven

19 men." I can't decipher the second line and then it says, "IDO, Bijeli

20 Vukovi, White Wolves, 60 men."

21 JUDGE ORIE: The first word on the third line, can you decipher

22 that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but it is not clear to

24 me.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

Page 15807


2 Q. What did "IDO" stand for, if you know?

3 A. Reconnaissance and sabotage detachment.

4 Q. Who were the White Wolves?

5 A. They were members of the reconnaissance and sabotage detachment,

6 and they were called the White Wolves, Bijeli Vukovi.

7 Q. Were they attached to a brigade or to the corps directly?

8 A. They weren't part of my brigade. I think that they were attached

9 to the corps, directly attached to the corps.

10 Q. Why were they called the White Wolves?

11 A. I don't know where this name came from.

12 Q. You told us that you were a professional soldier in the JNA before

13 the war commenced. Did the White Wolves exist in the former JNA?

14 A. No, they didn't.

15 Q. When did you first hear of them, in what year?

16 A. Halfway through 1994, more or less.

17 Q. And in what context did you hear of them, from whom and what was

18 said or what did you read?

19 A. I didn't read anything about it, but there were rumours that there

20 were such a unit which contained courageous men.

21 Q. I notice that you are smiling. Could you explain to us why?

22 A. It has nothing to do with this. When I said "the boys," this

23 isn't really a military term. So I was smiling to myself.

24 Q. All right. You tell us that you heard rumours there were such a

25 unit which contained courageous men. What did you understand that they

Page 15808

1 did which required courage?

2 A. Well, everything that is done in the course of a war and which

3 involves fighting, all sorts of activities require courage.

4 Q. Sir, you know what I mean, I am sure. What did you hear they did

5 which either required courage or exemplified courage? What was it they

6 did?

7 A. Well I heard that they were very successful in mounting a defence

8 on the outer ring towards the Trnovo location.

9 Q. And have you heard of the White Eagles.

10 A. Yes, I have.

11 Q. Was there any connection between the White Eagles and the White

12 Wolves?

13 A. No, there wasn't.

14 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. President.

15 That concludes cross-examination.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Ms. Pilipovic --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question since the

20 witness has the map in front of him. Could he mark in the northern part

21 of the map that we have spoken of, the Sedrenik area, could he mark, could

22 he indicate where it tells us which brigade is there, if the name of the

23 brigade is written there.

24 MR. IERACE: It may be a matter of translation, but the English

25 reads "could he mark the area." I would object to the map having any

Page 15809












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15810

1 marks put on it. But I notice the witness has the pointer. But perhaps

2 my learned colleague --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I only wanted to him to

4 indicate that northern part. Could we zoom in to see what formation was

5 there, to see whether we can see on the screen. Can the witness see this.

6 Further re-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:

7 Q. Witness, I was reserving to the northern part in blue, the

8 Sedrenik area, what we can see on the blue circle in the map.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the upper

10 part of the map. Could we put the map a bit further up. No. Put it up

11 so we can see the lower part.

12 Q. Sir, could you just tell us when you answered the question as to

13 what brigade it was, were you referring to the 2nd Mountain Brigade?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 MR. IERACE: That was a blatantly leading question, quickly

17 answered, before I had an opportunity to object to the question. And I

18 don't see how that arose out of anything I --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see. Ms. Pilipovic, on the transcript,

20 it appears that it said: "Sir, you tell us where referring to the 2nd

21 Mountain Brigade, that is reading unless the witness said something about

22 this before.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, he did, for

24 certain. I can't check it in the transcript, but you could ask the

25 witness whether he said this.

Page 15811

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's what happened before, so I am very much aware

2 that these kind of things happen. Did you before, Ms. Pilipovic asked you

3 to confirm it, were you referring to the 2nd Mountain Brigade? Did you

4 use these words already when they were not used yet by Ms. Pilipovic?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. But I can't say when,

6 right now, when I was being examined by the Defence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, you may -- the objection

8 is -- Ms. Pilipovic says that the witness used these words before. We

9 always can check in the transcript whether when there is any doubt.

10 MR. IERACE: Just at this stage, I am completely unaware of what

11 the context was when it was used.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Neither am I. Well, the question has been put to the

13 witness, has been answered by the witness, and if the objection needs

14 further elaboration, we should rather do it when we have checked tapes.

15 Yes. Yes, Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.

16 Ms. Pilipovic, I did understand --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's how I understood this.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. You said that not

21 all the artillery positions are depicted in the big map, in that one. Did

22 I understood -- understand you well?

23 A. I think I didn't speak about it, but I can't really claim one way

24 or the other because I didn't know about all of the positions.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Then I will ask you: Are they depicted, all

Page 15812

1 the positions are depicted in the map in your area?

2 A. I can repeat, sir: I cannot tell you whether all of the positions

3 have been marked because I really don't know.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. My second question is the following, I

5 think that you said already that but it is just for clarification: Is the

6 120-millimetre mortar an artillery or an infantry weapon or both?

7 A. Both.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Grdonj, do you remember the name, of course?

9 A. Yes. We mentioned it often.

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: What is that? Is it a is town, a settlement,

11 a village, a field, is a hill? What is Grdonj?

12 A. It is a hill.

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It is a hill. Okay. Could this Exhibit

14 1490 -- 1790 be shown to the witness. I think that you said that from the

15 red circle you could see Sedrenik only partially because there were some

16 woods in the area. Am I correct?

17 A. Yes. It was a partially wooded area.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you point to those woods, again, please,

19 with the pointer.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: With using the red pen, please, could you

22 circle the area.

23 A. [Marks]

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No further questions,

25 Mr. President.

Page 15813

1 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for

2 you.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 [Interpretation] Sir, I'd like to make sure that I understood you

5 correctly. Yesterday at a question that was asked by the Defence, you

6 answered -- and I am going to quote in English [In English] "Seven woods

7 area part of the BH Army was deployed in that area."

8 And you added [In English] "They used 82-millimetre mortar.

9 So, if I understand you correctly in this area, the BH Army had

10 82-millimetre mortars.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you said that they also had

13 120-millimetre mortars. What you meant, that these were not in this area,

14 but elsewhere?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My second question is in relation

17 to the impact. Do you remember on how many occasions you yourself were

18 able to establish that there were mortar impacts of 120-millimetre

19 mortars. You told us about the depth and the effects and the debris, the

20 stabiliser and so on. And how many occasions did you personally see the

21 impact or impacts? Impact or impacts of 120-millimetre mortars.

22 A. I really couldn't tell you the exact number, because I really

23 don't recall the exact number, but there were many.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The reason I am interested is

25 that you said your experts explained to you where the shots were coming

Page 15814

1 from, where the fire was coming from, the direction and so on, and that it

2 was also possible for them to establish and to differentiate between the

3 calibres, when they saw impacts and when after they looked at impacts,

4 which calibres caused these impacts. Who were these experts? Were they

5 military experts? Were they ballistics experts or soldiers with

6 experience?

7 A. Well, anyone with a little more experience looking at the crater,

8 anyone can tell about the type of the mortar shell. The direction has to

9 be established by experts who are artillery experts.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. And it is from these people

11 that you had the information with respect to the calibres and the

12 direction of fire?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. My last question is

15 in relation to the following: If I understand you correctly, you used,

16 partially at least, the weapons that belonged to the former JNA. As far

17 as you know, this army, did it not have rifles with telescopes, do you

18 know?

19 A. Yes, it did have.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you personally received these

21 types of rifles in your sector, in your department, at least?

22 A. There were such rifles, but I would have to explain a little more,

23 that it should be rectified that we didn't have -- how to do the

24 rectification of these rifles, and they couldn't be used efficiently, nor

25 did we have people who were trained to do this kind of shooting.

Page 15815

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And in the observation post, the

2 observation post marked with a red circle, if I understand correctly, this

3 was an observation point, so it had a clear view which may have been a

4 good point, a good location, to use these kind of weapons?

5 A. Well, the Prosecutor said that this was observation point. I am

6 just saying that this was just a trench belonging to the VRS. I don't

7 know that this -- these weapons were used from this point.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have got a few questions for you as well.

10 First of all, may the map be -- the large map, the large colour map be --

11 just keep it as it is. So, that's good. It doesn't even have to --

12 Did I understand you well that this map is of the same scale as

13 the maps you used at the battalion level; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And you told us what was the scale of this map?

16 A. One to 25.000.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also told us that 5 millimeters, half a

18 centimetre on this map, would be 250 metres in reality.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is -- when I have half a centimetre on a map of 1 to

21 25.000, would that not result in 125 metres, rather than 250 metres? Let

22 me put it the following way to you, 1 to 25.000, one metre is 120 metres.

23 So, therefore, 25.000 centimetres would be 250 metres, therefore, half a

24 centimetre, would be 125 metres; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. I had rounded it up to one centimetre.

Page 15816

1 JUDGE ORIE: My next question, but before putting the next

2 question to you, I first ask the parties, is there any disagreement as to

3 the scale of this map? I heard no further questions on it.

4 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President, I can't indicate yet my position

5 in relation to this map.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think the best

8 thing would be to look at the map to make sure what the scale is.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I thought you had been looking at the map for a

10 considerable time. What was wrong, your calculation, or what you said

11 about the scale, because they do not go together well? Is the scale a

12 different one or was your calculation not correct?

13 A. My calculation is incorrect. Because I said this thinking of 1

14 centimetre, and yet I was speaking, referring to half a centimetre.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So you say the calculation is not correct, but 1 to

16 25.000 is correct?

17 A. Yes, I think so, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you for this answer. You said

19 something about the map as far as the weaponry was concerned. Let me

20 first ask you: How many artillery positions would be in your area of

21 responsibility? And I am specifically asking to artillery positions

22 including mortars. How many would -- even if you would not know of all of

23 them, of how many do you know?

24 A. I know about three.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And you're not sure or are you sure that these are

Page 15817

1 all your artillery positions OR mortars?

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting. Do you

3 want to distinguish the period before or after the heavy weapons exclusion

4 zone?

5 JUDGE ORIE: No it is for my question. I am not making any -- I

6 will give you -- when you answered that question about three positions,

7 what time did you have in mind, during the whole of the conflict or first

8 year, second year?

9 A. I was thinking of the beginning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The beginning --

11 A. First year.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and the second year? Did IT change or did it

13 change when rules were given to put weaponry together, yes?

14 A. When there was certain calibre weapons that had to be moved, they

15 were taken out. What I was thinking not just because of that, because of

16 the movements of the weapons. It is the same number, but positions were

17 moved of the weapons.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So the positions would change?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Including the positions of mortars?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And up until that moment where the heavy weaponry had

23 to be moved to a certain area outside, would there be always three mortar

24 positions or would there be more or less or would that change? So I am

25 not talking about the time where there were certain regulations in force

Page 15818

1 as to have the heavy weaponry under control.

2 A. Mostly it was the same number of positions, except that they

3 changed.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

5 Last question is about when you said about how far weapons would

6 reach from your positions at the front line, you gave numbers as high as,

7 I think, 5.000 metres or 6.000 metres. What weaponry did you have in mind

8 at that moment when you gave that answer?

9 A. I was thinking of the weapons 7.9 millimetre calibre, and the M-74

10 machine-guns.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer --

12 THE INTERPRETER: M-84 machine-guns, the interpreter corrects

13 herself.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer. This concludes your

15 testimony in this court. I would like to thank you very much for having

16 come far away and having showed all patience with us during the last few

17 days. You've answered all the questions of the parties and of the Bench.

18 I thank you again for coming and I wish that you have a safe trip home

19 again.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of

22 the courtroom.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Do the parties know we are not sitting tomorrow, we

Page 15819

1 will not sit next Monday, we will sit on Tuesday and that should be in the

2 afternoon as far as I understand. Then a number has been given to the

3 large, coloured map that, that will be number C2. Yes, we are sitting in

4 the afternoon, same courtroom. Since we are heading for a relatively long

5 weekend, is there anything the parties would like to raise at this very

6 moment? It seems to be not. I thank the interpreters and the technicians

7 very much for their assistance and the cooperation because I stole, again,

8 seven minutes of your time. We will adjourn until next Monday -- Tuesday.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 1.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

11 the 19th day of November, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.