Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16102

1 Friday, 22 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed where most of the laptops seem to be

6 functioning, Judge Nieto-Navia has nothing on his laptop screen.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I was informed,

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you wanted to address the Chamber.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In fact, Mr. President, yes.

13 I'd like to say that my laptop apparently refuses to work, so if we could

14 have the assistance of a technician, I would be grateful. The reason for

15 which -- I can continue in this manner. The reason for which I wanted to

16 address your Trial Chamber, Mr. President, is that yesterday we heard in

17 this courtroom words that surprised Defence counsel and perhaps others

18 too. We heard the Prosecution affirm in front of the witness using the

19 traditional formula, of course, I put to you that, I suggest that, they

20 told him that he was guilty of a crime, that is to say that he perhaps

21 participated in a crime. That he participated in intentional fire on

22 civilians.

23 In many legal systems when a magistrate or a legal officer is

24 here, regardless of his position, when someone affirms such a thing in

25 public this is considered to be a serious matter and there are two

Page 16103

1 possibilities that seem to arise. Either one instigates proceeding

2 against this person. We know that you committed such-and-such an act and

3 we are go to proceed because we are prosecuting -- we are accusing you or

4 this is not done and then a minimal restraint should be applied everyone

5 should know that, both sides should know that. And this would be observed

6 in such situations.

7 When such a thing is affirmed, even if it is true that the Rule

8 90(H) tries to get the witness to contradict such an affirmation in the

9 course of a cross-examination when such a thing is affirmed one goes too

10 far. The threshold is crossed, a threshold is crossed which should not

11 be crossed. And in addition one attempts in this manner to destabilise

12 the witness and I don't think that this is acceptable.

13 All the more so, in that on one occasion, the Defence used the

14 word "lie" with regard to a witness and we were admonished by the

15 Trial Chamber and we were told that it wasn't good, it wasn't necessary to

16 use language that was too strong with regard to such proceedings.

17 So when one claims that a witness has committed a crime, that he

18 personally has committed a crime in public, Defence counsel considers this

19 to be unacceptable and that such behaviour should quite simply be

20 sanctioned. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, any need to respond.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the remarks by my learned colleague

23 indicate a failure on his part to understand the requirements of Rule

24 90(H). The witness's evidence made it necessary and unavoidable for the

25 Prosecution to put that proposition to him. In particular the witness

Page 16104

1 said that except for time off duty during which he slept at Mrkovici, he

2 was on that part of the front line for the duration of the war,

3 therefore, including the indictment period, he and 14 -- up to 14 fellow

4 soldiers. The Prosecution case is that two of the scheduled sniping

5 victims were shot from that ridge, therefore, squarely, either he or one

6 or more of his fellow 14 soldiers were responsible.

7 Rule 90(H) requires the Prosecution to, out of fairness if

8 nothing else to put to him that either he or his fellow soldiers were

9 engaged in that activity, not only in relation to the two scheduled

10 incidents, but they are illustrations. There is other evidence of

11 sniping of civilians in that area which the Prosecution says was done

12 deliberately or indiscriminately.

13 So the witness having squarely placed himself in that area of

14 responsibility, it was necessary to put to him that, firstly, he or his

15 fellows were responsible, and secondly, they received orders, the effect

16 of which was to target civilians. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you said that the behaviour

18 should be sanctioned. The Chamber will consider having heard you and the

19 response of Mr. Ierace whether there is a reason to take action upon your

20 request. We will consider that, not at this very moment, but we will

21 consider that in due course.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to

23 add that when I say that such behaviour should be penalised, where it is

24 a manner of speaking, I wouldn't want you to understand to take this to

25 mean that I want anyone to be penalised. When I say that it should be

Page 16105

1 penalised, what I want to say is that such behaviour should not be

2 accepted. That's what I wanted to say. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I think that what I intended to say is not

4 to fine or send Mr. Ierace to gaol for it, but I had in mind that the

5 Chamber would express itself on the appropriateness of the way Mr. Ierace

6 questioned the witness.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I should add that what I did

8 would not only be expected of me in a common law trial, but I would

9 attract disapproval if I did not do that, if I did not put to a witness,

10 who, by his evidence, placed himself in that position of responsibility

11 that he was responsible and that those orders were given.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think, but if I am wrong in my

13 understanding please tell me so that we can take that into consideration

14 when considering the matter put to us by Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that what you

15 did is part of what you think the Defence should have done at many

16 occasions when the Prosecution witnesses were examined. Is that a

17 correct understanding?

18 MR. IERACE: One example is General Karavelic, at the end

19 of his cross-examination, I pointed out that it had not been put to him

20 that he was responsible for firing on civilians on the ABiH side. That

21 is just one example. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider the matter. Before the Defence

23 will call its next witness, I'd first like to turn into closed session.

24 [Closed session]

25 [redacted]

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Page 16108

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE ORIE: And may I then take it, Ms. Pilipovic, that the

5 Defence is [redacted]

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please --

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague will start with the

9 examination.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have forgotten one thing. We first

11 should deal with the documents that -- I made a mistake. I mentioned the

12 name of the witness in open session. So a redaction should be made. I

13 apologise for the inconvenience caused by me.

14 But before we call the next witness, Madam Registrar, could --

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then since the correction is repaired, we could go

17 through the documents of yesterday introduced by the witness, Nikolic.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1794, map marked by witness; Exhibit

19 D338, photograph; Exhibit P3756, photograph marked by witness; Exhibit

20 P3763, Exhibit P3757, Exhibit P3762, Exhibit P3758, Exhibit P3760, all

21 photographs.

22 JUDGE ORIE: These documents are admitted into evidence since I

23 hear no objections.

24 Ms. Pilipovic, since for the next witness there is no application

25 for protective measures, I would like to know what will be the pseudonym

Page 16109

1 you will use.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, DP53.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. Then, Mr. Usher, could

4 you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP53, can you hear me in a language you

7 understand?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We will not use your name since protective measures

10 are effective in respect of you. Mr. DP53, before giving evidence in

11 this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

12 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and

13 nothing but the truth. The next of this declaration will be handed out

14 to you now by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn

15 declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

21 Defence. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since you are standing, I take it that you

22 will start.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 16110

1 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think I received the

4 French translation, but I don't think that is very important.

5 Q. Witness, good day. Can you hear me?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, now I am going to show you a sheet of paper, first of

8 all, and could you just answer the following question by saying yes or no:

9 What is written -- can you tell us whether what is written on this piece

10 of paper is exact?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The usher can take away the

14 sheet of paper. Mr. President, we could perhaps go into closed session,

15 closed session or private session, but I think that closed session would

16 be better.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If there is no one in the --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In that case, I leave it to

19 the Trial Chamber.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16111













13 Page 16111 redacted private session













Page 16112

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, could you tell us what you did between spring 1992 and

5 winter 1993, which is the period that corresponds to the period of

6 hostilities? And for the sake of the transcript, and it was well

7 transcribed in Serb, 1995, which still does not appear in the transcript.

8 There it is. Thanks.

9 A. I apologise. Could you repeat that question, please.

10 Q. What did you do between spring 1992, 9-2, and winter 1995, 9-5,

11 that is to say during the period of hostilities?

12 A. Well, I was engaged in the defence of my property and my family

13 house in Mrkovici. I was involved in this.

14 Q. Thank you. Were you part of a company of any kind, of a military

15 group at any point in time?

16 A. Yes. At the beginning when the conflict first broke out we had

17 organised the defence ourselves, and afterwards, once the Army of

18 Republika Srpska had been established --

19 Q. I will stop you there. I apologise. You said that you had

20 organised defence yourself. Can you briefly tell us how this took place,

21 how this was done?

22 A. On the 6th of April, since the relations between the national

23 parties were very tense, and guards had been formed before the conflict

24 itself broke out, that was in fact the reserve police officer. It was

25 the department in Mrkovici. They controlled unknown people who would

Page 16113












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Page 16114

1 come to that territory. And on the 6th of April 1992 or rather on the

2 5th of April 1992, in the course of one such control provoked from

3 firearms. And then we, the inhabitants of that village, went out to see

4 what was happening. And on the 6th of April, a neighbour and relatives

5 were killed just below the so-called Mala Kula in Mrkovici, which is

6 where our neighbour's property is located, neighbour's house.

7 Q. Thank you. I am now going to return to my previous question. You

8 told us that you had organised yourself. At the very beginning what arms

9 did you have at your disposal, and I am referring to the very beginning?

10 A. Well at the very beginning we had the weapons that the reserve

11 police officer had, the weapons of that group that was there. There were

12 about eight or nine men there. And it was in the school in Mrkovici they

13 were armed by the police officer at the time. They had automatic and

14 semi-automatic weapons.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, after you had started organising yourselves,

16 what happened, that is to say, after May, June 1992, were you organised

17 in a different way?

18 A. Well, after that event on the 6th of April a number of us went to

19 control those people who were coming to our village and who would pass

20 through our village. So we were more involved and engaged at the -- at

21 the boundaries which were at the end of the village in the direction of

22 Sarajevo, at the bottom of the village. And later on we were organised

23 as the Army of Republika Srpska.

24 Q. Very well. When you intervened, when you were part of the Army

25 of Republika Srpska in what capacity did you serve in that army?

Page 16115

1 A. I was a private, an ordinary soldier.

2 Q. Very well. What arm of the army?

3 A. There is no interpretation.

4 Q. I don't have interpretation either. In which arm, in which branch

5 of the army, for instance, we know the air force, the navy, which...?

6 A. No infantry.

7 Q. Very well.

8 A. Mrkovici, Mrkovici was an infantry company.

9 Q. Very well. So, Witness, can you tell us where exactly, if that

10 was the case, you were stationed and for how long and during which period

11 of the conflict.

12 A. We were stationed in the sector from the so-called Mala Kula and

13 to the Velika Kula, large fort, and that was throughout the time of the

14 war operations.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where the large fort is or the large

16 tower, where was it, that is the Velika Kula?

17 A. That was on the north-east side of Mrkovici.

18 Q. Thank you. How far is that facility from what we call -- the

19 facility that we call Mala Kula?

20 A. Two and a half kilometers, approximately.

21 Q. Thank you. And between these two facilities what was there?

22 A. Between these two there is an important elevation point, Spicasta

23 Stijena, sharpstone feature.

24 Q. Very well. How long were you there in this area?

25 A. In the area of responsibility of the company, I spent the entire

Page 16116

1 war there except occasionally when I was wounded and when I was on leave,

2 on sickness leave for treatment.

3 Q. Very well. You tell us that you spent the entire war there,

4 Witness, but were there not moments of rest, of leave, that men from the

5 front would be relieved; yes or no?

6 A. That would just be temporary for a few hours, for purposes of

7 rest.

8 Q. Yes, of course. Of course. But when this rest was taken, where

9 did you go?

10 A. I would go to my house in Mrkovici.

11 Q. Throughout the period of the war, Witness, how many times were

12 you able to go back to your house and I am not asking you to give us a

13 precise number, but was it rare? Was it frequent? How often?

14 A. That depended on the situation on the line itself. For instance,

15 if there were some important considerable operation against us, then

16 rarely, and if there was not so intense, then it would be every five or

17 six days.

18 Q. And on average, five or six days you would go back to the same

19 place; is that correct? Yes or no.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, we will come back to the situation, to your

22 situation on the line at Spicasta Stijena, but at the moment I'd like you

23 to tell us about the weapons of the opposing side. First of all, would

24 you be able to tell us, yes or no, about the weapons of the opposing

25 side?

Page 16117

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. What is your personal experience of that?

3 A. Well, they had infantry weapons and artillery weapons.

4 Q. What artillery weapons were you able to see yourself with your

5 own eyes?

6 A. Mortars, and a couple of times I saw a tank.

7 Q. Where were you able to see a tank?

8 A. Well, we saw the tank in the area of the transmitter on Hum, and

9 in the area of the Ciglana tunnel from where it fired in the direction of

10 our positions.

11 Q. From your positions, was it possible to see the area of Ciglana

12 and the area of the Hum hill?

13 A. Well, on the right-hand side of our lines it was possible to see

14 that part.

15 Q. What is the name of that area that you said was to the right?

16 Does it have a name, a specific name?

17 A. That is right from Mala Kula and that is called Orlovac.

18 Q. Thank you. You told us that you saw a tank on Hum and one tank in

19 Ciglana. Was this the same tank or were there two different tanks?

20 A. I don't know that because it didn't happen at the same time.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please approach the microphone,

22 Witness. Just a little bit more. Thank you. Or perhaps you could just

23 approach the microphone towards you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist the witness. Please

25 proceed.

Page 16118

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, you spoke to us also about the mortar. But do you know

3 what were the calibres that were used by the opposing side?

4 A. As far as the calibres concerned, they used all calibres of

5 mortars.

6 Q. And that means?

7 A. 60, 82, and 120-millimetres.

8 Q. Thank you very much. To the extent that you were able to have

9 the view of that side of Sarajevo, do you know where were these mortar

10 batteries of the opposing side of the enemy deployed?

11 A. In certain periods of time I do know.

12 Q. Which period?

13 A. In 1992, 1993, and so on. And so on. Except that mortar is a

14 mobile weapon so if it is found by the other side, then it would be moved

15 to the other side.

16 Q. Very well. But could you tell us where did you see these mortars

17 or where did you know that they were located in this period, in 1992 and

18 1993?

19 A. Well, according to the reports from intelligence services, we had

20 information that mortars were located 82-millimetre calibre in the area

21 of Sedrenik near Karavdina Kuca, so-called Karavda house, and the 120

22 millimetre mortar and the 82-millimetre by the cemetery Bare, and the 120

23 by the Kosevo Hospital in the area of the engineering faculty.

24 Q. Sir, could you repeat the name of the house which was not

25 recorded in the transcript where one 82 and 120-millimetre calibre

Page 16119












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Page 16120

1 mortars was located?

2 A. Karavdina Kuca.

3 Q. Did it have a different name?

4 A. No, that was his last name, the last name of the owner.

5 Q. Very well. I am going to come back to what you told us. You

6 told us about an area which is near the Kosevo Hospital, and you also

7 told us about the Bare cemetery. Where is cemetery Bare located, please?

8 A. It is located on the western side of the Kosevo Hospital.

9 Q. Thank you. At which distance, please?

10 A. As the crow flies 300 to 400 metres.

11 Q. Thank you. The same question for the technical faculty -- I see

12 there is a problem in the transcript.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it is a problem in the

14 transcript, but you asked at what distance. It is not clear at what

15 distance from where, from where the witness was or from the Kosevo

16 Hospital, 300 to 400 metres from where, Mr. DP53?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Kosevo Hospital. From Kosevo

19 Hospital.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, the same question from the Kosevo Hospital how far was

23 the engineering faculty or the technical faculty?

24 A. 100 meters, but not as the crow flies, but on the ground.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know according to your

Page 16121

1 personal experience, the opposing side had other heavy weapons. You

2 spoke to us and I will remind you, about the mortars and tanks. Were

3 there any other weapons that were used against you?

4 A. They had a lot of weapons. They had Browning guns that from

5 which the fire was opened on us very frequently. They had other artillery

6 weapons.

7 Q. What other weapons, what other pieces?

8 A. I am not an expert in large-calibre weapons, but they were

9 probably Howitzers.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could -- with the assistance

12 of Mr. Usher, Madam Registrar, could we have the map that we usually have

13 a look at, which is map in relation to incident number 3 and 8. We have

14 one copy in colour for the witness for the ELMO. And for the others a

15 black and white copy. Thank you. And with your leave, Mr. President,

16 perhaps Mr. Usher could place the map on the ELMO.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 1796.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And we thank Madam Registrar.

19 Q. Witness, do you recognise, more or less, what is depicted on this

20 map?

21 A. More or less, I do.

22 Q. Why do you say more or less?

23 A. I can't quite work it out, whether it has been slightly enlarged

24 or what. I can try.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, try and position or to locate on this map,

Page 16122

1 if you can, the location where -- the location that you called Velika

2 Kula, the large fort. First of all, could you please point to it with

3 the pointer.

4 A. It is about here somewhere, but there is -- I think that's

5 missing, that part is missing.

6 Q. Very well. Could you please take a black pen and put a black

7 cross on the upper border of the map where you were pointing. And if you

8 can write next to it initials "VK."

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. On this map you can see an upper line, upper

11 line which is dark green and below it a wavy light green line. Now, the

12 dark green line is supposed to represent the position of the VRS positions

13 at the time of the conflict. Bearing in mind the modifications that you

14 can also see --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

16 JUDGE ORIE: I am just -- I was informed, that the witness, when

17 he is leaning over, that causes sometimes some problems. But please

18 proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 Q. Witness, could you please not lean over too much. Yes, thank you

21 very much. Could you please indicate if the position of these lines

22 appear to you to be more or less confirmed with reality or perhaps

23 something else should be modified? And I am talking about the VRS line.

24 A. I think it should be modified.

25 Q. And how?

Page 16123

1 A. Shall I draw --

2 Q. Could you please point first with the pointer --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, please give the witness the pointer.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Indicates]

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Very well.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Witness, could you please do the same

9 thing now with a black pen.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would be grateful if you can just go over

12 this line just to make it a little darker, please, with the pen. Thank

13 you.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you now focus on the lower part, that

16 is the area to the south of -- that is of the lighter line. This lighter

17 line represents the positions of the opposing army, that is of the BH

18 Army. Do you know if there was just one line of Defence or were there

19 more?

20 MR. STAMP: I might have missed it but perhaps it would be clear

21 if we knew the period that he was talking about. Was that the entire

22 period or a particular part of the period?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps this could be clarified.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will ask the question.

25 Yes, gladly. I will ask the question, Mr. President.

Page 16124

1 Q. Witness, the line that you just drew was this a line that changed

2 or does it correspond to one period in the conflict, specifically?

3 A. This is the line which remained unchanged except for certain

4 trenches. For instance, Mala Kula and sharpstone feature that fell

5 several times into the hands of the opponent and were then returned again

6 to our area of responsibility. But basically this was the line that

7 remained throughout the war, didn't change, except for some parts that in

8 case that they attacked, then they would fall into their hands.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I am going to ask you the same

10 question in relation to the lines of the other side, of the opposing

11 side, and that is for the entire period. Was there one single system of

12 lines or was there several lines, a system of multiple lines?

13 A. There were several systems of lines.

14 Q. Thank you. Would you be able to draw these lines? Could you do

15 it, yes or no?

16 A. Do you mean the opposing army or?

17 Q. On the opposing side in fact, but could you please use the

18 pointer, please. Show us what you mean.

19 A. I think this line isn't correctly drawn in because this elevation

20 906 was held by the opposing side.

21 Q. Very well, Witness, if the light green line seems incorrectly

22 positioned on the map I would be very grateful if you could correct it

23 with the black pen.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would a double line be a good suggestion?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Mr. President.

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Page 16126

1 Q. Witness, we are speaking about the lower line, that is the light

2 green line.

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. They ran parallel to each other, more or less, but this map seems

6 slightly enlarged to me.

7 Q. Don't worry about the map and its problems.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And more to the right, Witness, how would that go, if you are able

10 to?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, I am assuming that you drew here the first

13 line of defence; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Could you now draw the second and then the third.

16 MR. STAMP: I would be grateful if in the future the meaning of

17 the witness's evidence is not assumed what he could be asking a leading

18 question about it. Just in the future.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you refrain from leading,

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

22 Q. I asked the question whether there were several lines and I think

23 your answer was that there were several lines, is that correct, Witness?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. How many lines were there?

Page 16127

1 A. Well, there were three lines of defence.

2 Q. Thank you. Did you know, more or less, the situation on the

3 ground of these three lines, the location of these three lines on the

4 ground? Could you please -- Witness, could you please answer? Did you

5 know more or less --

6 A. Not in all areas.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please draw the part that you

8 knew.

9 A. In some areas --

10 Q. Could you just draw the lines that you knew, the areas of the

11 lines that you knew.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you do it, please.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Witness, when you finish this line, I would be grateful if that

16 is the case to put a number "2" next to it, if that is number "2."

17 A. [Marks]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could leave it as a dotted line and not

19 make it a -- well, Mr. DP53, I am afraid it is too late now.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Here it is.

21 Q. Thank you very much. So that is number 2, represents the second

22 line. And could you please draw the 3rd line, still as a dotted line,

23 please.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. Could you please put number "3" next to it.

Page 16128

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And on the very first line that you drew, could you please put

3 number "1" and then things will be in order. The first line of defence

4 of the forces --

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Yes, thank you.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I wondered whether the first line of the BiH

9 forces and I take it now that the witness has put two "1s" and he crosses

10 out one of them now.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, here it is.

12 JUDGE ORIE: First line of the BiH forces. Please proceed.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. With the

14 assistance of Mr. Usher, could we please make it larger, the view larger

15 and if you can take the pointer into your hand. Thank you. Now, if we

16 can just go -- if we can zoom out, rather. Thank you very much. Just a

17 little bit more. Just a little bit more.

18 Q. Witness, could you point out to us on this map, if you can, the

19 view you had at the time of the war, the view of Sedrenik and perhaps of

20 other places, but indicate on this map the view that you could have had

21 from your positions, and namely, towards the south, in the south, southern

22 part of the map.

23 A. Which part are you referring to?

24 Q. Yes, exactly, that's it. Show us on the map the part that you

25 could see and the part that you couldn't see, as a result.

Page 16129

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Which part could you see?

3 A. The parts to the right of me could be seen, but not the parts to

4 the left.

5 Q. Very well. Could you take a marker. In order to facilitate the

6 exercise, we have a ruler that might be helpful. Thank you. Could you

7 do that again, but could you draw a line now with a black felt tip.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you, Witness. And if I have understood you correctly, the

10 right part that is to say the part that is to the east on this map, is

11 the part that you could see and the other part is the part that you

12 couldn't see; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, why were you not able to see the other part,

15 the part which is to the west in the map or south-west?

16 A. Well, we couldn't see that part because the parts of the lines

17 that could perhaps be seen were in front of us. There was a forest

18 there. And the observation post that we had here, it was also not

19 possible to see that part from the post, that other part, because the

20 observation post wasn't on the edge of the terrain. It was a little

21 further back from the ridge, from the edge. And this part here in front

22 of the line, well, in fact, there was a forest in front of us. It was a

23 forested area.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, would it have been possible to have a better

25 view if one were on the peak of the ridge, on the top of the ridge?

Page 16130

1 A. Not in wartime.

2 Q. And why not, Witness?

3 A. Well, because one would have been hit by enemy fire.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it might be a bit confusing. May

6 I ask you: You have drawn a line from a red circle to approximately

7 where the "3" is. You first indicated that you had a view on what is on

8 the right-hand side of that line. Then you later told us that you had no

9 view on what was on the left-hand side of that line. Is that correct?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from my right side, this part

11 could be seen, and this part here, couldn't be seen.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then you added later on that you couldn't

13 see the other part either, so which was a bit confusing for me. But,

14 could you please perhaps indicate what part you could see, for example,

15 by --

16 MR. STAMP: Beside the number "3" maybe?


18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This part.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So you could see whatever was on the map on the

20 right-hand side of the line you have drawn from north-west to south-east.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Witness, at the bottom of this map a place called Bakija can be

24 seen. You have the word Bakija, can you see it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16131












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Page 16132

1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what there was in that area as far as

2 military installations are concerned, possible military installations?

3 A. In this area where it says "Bakija" there was a cemetery and the

4 barracks of the former Yugoslav Army was next to the cemetery. And where

5 it says Streliste and it has been underlined here, I think that's where

6 the facilities are located.

7 Q. Witness, can you point to -- yes, but could you pull your head

8 back, please, so that we can see this -- could you point out the area that

9 you referred to?

10 A. This is where the barracks of the former Yugoslav Army was

11 located.

12 Q. Thank you. I would be grateful if you could draw circle around

13 this area, using a black felt tip. Draw a circle around it, please,

14 around the barracks.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you. And could you write "K" next to it.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, can you see a point bearing the

19 number "3"? Can you see the number 3 on the map? No, a dot. Thank you.

20 Can you see it? No, it is further to the left. No. Below.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Thank you. As far as you can remember what is the distance,

23 because we are talking about a diagonal, what is the distance between the

24 barracks that you mentioned and this point, point number 3, if you can

25 tell us, as the crow flies? Between point number 3 and the barracks.

Page 16133

1 A. Well, about -- between 200 and 300 metres.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you do the same for point 8, if you

3 can find it on the map. Can you find a second red dot which is further

4 to the north. Not the number, the dot.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Thank you. And I'd like to ask you the same question with regard

7 to the distance between the barracks and the red dot, as far as you can

8 remember?

9 A. I think it was about 500 metres.

10 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like you to show us on this map,

11 if you can -- I will withdraw that and I will reformulate my question.

12 Was there any shooting at your positions from Sedrenik; yes or

13 no?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you tell us, and use the pointer, from

16 which area was fire opened at your lines?

17 A. Well, they opened fire from infantry weapons and from points

18 along the entire line. And from heavy weapons, from the barracks, they

19 opened fire from a Browning and they fired from mortars from this area,

20 which is somewhere here above the barracks.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you please take a marker and make a

22 cross at the site that you have pointed out with the pointer.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. So that's good. You were just above the red rectangle. That's

25 where you were a minute ago.

Page 16134

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what this place is called, do you

3 know?

4 A. Well, this is the location of what I mentioned a minute

5 ago, Karavdina Kuca, but this place here is called Streliste, it's a wider

6 area.

7 Q. Very well. Could you please write two "KKs" next to the cross

8 that you have made, and this will mark the house concerned.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. And now could you make a cross next to the shooting ground that

11 you mentioned a minute ago -- no. Thank you.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you. And could you write the letter "P" next to this

14 facility.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Witness, thank you. Next to these facilities that you have just

17 marked "P" and "K and K" were there military positions of any kind next

18 to these facilities?

19 A. Before the conflict broke out, the Streliste was here too. The

20 Streliste, the shooting ground that belonged to the former Yugoslav Army

21 and to the Territorial Defence. It was a shooting ground.

22 Q. Witness, I am referring to the period of the conflict, from

23 spring 1992 to winter 1995, the period that you were familiar with. At

24 these two facilities, "P" and "KK," were there any military forces at

25 these sites?

Page 16135

1 A. Well, as far as we knew the place marked with the letter "K"

2 82-millimetre mortar were positioned there.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. And there were lines up near Visoko.

5 Q. And in the direction of near the site marked with the letter P,

6 were there any troops positioned there?

7 A. I don't know anything about that.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you now point out with the pointer,

9 but could we enlarge the map so that we can see the upper and the lower

10 parts of the map. Witness, when there were exchanges of fire between the

11 two sides, could you outline by using the pointer the direction of fire

12 from the entire line that you pointed out a minute ago, the green line,

13 the line towards the east?

14 A. Well, towards the lines of the other side.

15 Q. Could you carry on, outline the line on the entire map.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness rapidly outlined

19 six or five lines going in the direction of the south-east in general and

20 in the direction of the Bakija zone and the zones that he indicated a

21 minute ago as "P" and "K and K." I think we can remove the map, now and

22 place the exhibits that were admitted as evidence a minute ago, we could

23 place these exhibits on the ELMO. 3756P, and -- no, I apologise. 3758

24 and 3760. It is a 360-degree photograph [as interpreted]. It is a

25 panoramic picture of Sarajevo it consists of two parts, and I will show it

Page 16136

1 to you so that you can see what photograph is concerned.

2 MR. STAMP: Indicated to me what number that is?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will repeat it, gladly. It

4 is Exhibit 3758 and 3760, "P" for Prosecution. If the usher could

5 superimpose these photographs. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: There has been an error in the transcript where it

7 says that it is a 360-degrees photograph, I think you said it was an

8 overlapping photograph. Please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President,

10 but I think I said panoramic. Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, can you recognise this photograph?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, my first question, can you see any minarets in this

14 photograph?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you indicate some of them with a pointer so that we are

17 clear about what you are referring to.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Very well.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness showed between 8

21 and 10 buildings in this photograph, both to the left and to the right.

22 Q. Witness, did you ever have the opportunity of seeing the area

23 that was photographed, that is photographed, immediately after the war?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Very well. During your stay there, that is to say during the

Page 16137












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Page 16138

1 war, any of the minarets that you have pointed to and that you could have

2 seen from your positions, had any of these minarets been destroyed by

3 fire coming from your lines or coming from your company?

4 A. None of them could have been destroyed because our company didn't

5 have any heavy weapons and infantry weapons can't --

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. Witness, since we have this photograph on

7 the screen could you place your pointer in the left area, the upper

8 left-hand area.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. No. Further to the right, please. A little lower down. Further

11 to the right. Towards the big building that we can see. Further.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Thank you. Stop there. Do you know what this building is?

14 A. Just a minute. That was also the barracks of the former

15 Yugoslavia, it was called Jajce.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed, for the

18 sake of the transcript, to a large building located in the upper part of

19 the photograph number 3758. It is the upper third, it is of ocher

20 colour, as far as the walls are concerned and the roof appears to be

21 brown.

22 Q. Witness, what is the building in front of these barracks and

23 which is on a small hill? Can you see it? And it appears that we can

24 see stellas there. Further down. Further down.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 16139

1 Q. Stop, stop. What is this building that we can see which is

2 apparently on a plateau?

3 A. Here?

4 Q. Yes. It is a building which appears to be horizontal. No, it is

5 not a building, for the translation, it is a feature. Can you see a sort

6 of field with white tombstones. It is below. Below. Below. Over there.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Thank you. To the right. Stop.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Stop. What can you see here, Witness?

11 A. It is a cemetery.

12 Q. Is it a cemetery which is near the barracks that you mentioned a

13 minute ago?

14 A. No. It is -- the barracks that I mentioned a minute ago is

15 located here behind this.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge the

17 photograph some more.

18 Q. Could you do that again. Could you point that again, please,

19 Witness, where was the barracks? Where were the barracks?

20 A. The barracks were behind this cemetery here. You can't see it

21 here in the photograph.

22 Q. Very well.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to the

24 left side, the left edge, the upper third of photograph 3758 and stated

25 that there was a cemetery there that could be made out and the barracks

Page 16140

1 in question.

2 Q. Witness, before the break I would like you to do the following:

3 If the usher gives you a blank sheet of paper, could you take this blank

4 sheet of paper and after the usher has joined the two photographs --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Usher.

6 Q. Witness, could you use the blank sheet of paper that you have

7 been given to show the view you had from your positions, that is to say,

8 from the forward observation post, indicate what you could see during the

9 war, and could you conceal what you couldn't see.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

13 this is the time for a break. We can leave things as they are and we

14 will carry on if you like.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have done

17 the following: We have prepared the same photographs in black and white.

18 We will do the same exercise and mark them again so as to save time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I would rather have in the transcript as

20 well what happened until now. And it is the cemetery the witness pointed

21 at which was not near to the barracks is on photograph P3758,

22 approximately halfway up a little bit left from the centre where we see a

23 lot of tiny little white objects, as it seems to be. And where the

24 witness did put a virgin piece of paper over the two photographs he was

25 covering almost the whole of the right photograph, and a large upper part

Page 16141

1 of the photograph on the left.

2 We will adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Before we

6 continue, one observation for the parties. We talked about whether we

7 would sit in December on the 2nd, on the 3rd. The 2nd was not a day on

8 which we would sit. The 3rd, there have been plans to change the Plenary

9 to the 3rd. These plans have been chanced now. So we will sit on the

10 3rd. The Plenary will be on the 12th and the 13th. So, therefore, the

11 11th which was not scheduled for sitting becomes available. I still hope

12 to hear soon from General Galic how his family visit has been planned,

13 but the 11th might be a day where we could sit. This is not a proposal.

14 This is not a decision. But just to inform the parties as I promised you

15 to keep you informed as good as I could and as quickly as I could. Yes.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wish to

17 inform you that the 11th is suitable for us. The family of General Galic

18 is coming to visit on the 13th.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So then please, could the parties prepare, as I said,

20 it is not yet a decision. We still have to consider it, but at least take

21 into consideration that we might sit on the 11th.

22 Then Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Ms. Pilipovic was also speaking my name. I will also be present if we

25 have to work on the 11th. Perhaps now we could distribute with the

Page 16142

1 assistance of Mr. Usher, the black and white copies, those are the exact

2 copies of the two photographs, but we are going to give them a number.

3 And I am going to give the instructions to the witness.

4 What I'd like to do is for him to do the same exercise again that

5 he did on the two photographs, once they have been gathered or rather

6 joined together by Mr. Usher. And if he can draw with a black pen the

7 zone that was not visible for him.

8 THE REGISTRAR: D1797 and D1798.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Usher join the two

10 photographs --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel.

12 MR. STAMP: -- shown to the witness. I have been shown D1797, and

13 D17 -- well, they are both marked D1797.

14 THE REGISTRAR: I made a change to one of them.

15 MR. STAMP: Okay, one should be D1798. And there seems to be --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there seems to be markings on them. May I take

17 it that these markings might not be a real objection. It is about what

18 you called yesterday "an important question" I take it,

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? You asked yesterday a question and you were a bit

20 worried that you could not put that question to the witness. You said

21 that it was very important. Is it clear that what we find markings on

22 this map is the subject of that question from yesterday. A similar

23 question was put to the witness today I take it.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which markings are we speaking

25 about, Mr. President?

Page 16143

1 JUDGE ORIE: The small circles on it. Many, many, many.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No, Mr. President, I

3 apologise. These circles have nothing to do with anything and I wanted

4 to ask the witness not to pay any attention to them. Just not to pay any

5 attention to them. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it would not cause any problem.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Witness, could you please do the same exercise again, just like

10 before. Could you place a blank sheet of paper -- if you don't have it,

11 you will be handed one.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. And could you please position this piece of paper again. I think

14 that you are showing us here the part that you did not see; is that

15 correct?

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Very well. Now, if you can, because we can't see it on the

18 screen. Here it is now. Could you please now draw a line along the

19 sheet of paper on the both photographs, please. You can perhaps take a

20 ruler and draw a line. Thank you.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

24 the line should be visible on the photographs. Yes, it is visible.

25 Q. And, Witness, I'd be grateful if you can shade out the part that

Page 16144

1 you couldn't see.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] These two photographs can be

5 removed now from the ELMO. Thank you.

6 Q. Now, Witness, can we speak about the frequency of fighting. The

7 photographs we no longer need them. They can be removed.

8 When we spoke about the fighting, I would like to speak about the

9 frequency of fighting, what was the frequency of fighting? And I am

10 talking about the rhythm of the exchanges of fire and how considerable

11 they were, what was their intensity of the exchanges of fire, please.

12 A. Fighting went on a daily basis. Speaking of intensity,

13 occasionally there were just acts of provocation and very often every few

14 days there were more -- there was more intense fighting. On average

15 every 10 days or so there would be more intense attacks.

16 Q. Thank you. When you say they were much more intense, what kind

17 of exchange of fire are we talking about? What type of weapons that was

18 used then?

19 A. Most of the time it was infantry weapons that were used and in

20 these considerable high intensity exchanges of fire was used also

21 artillery and mortars, Browning guns and recoilless cannons.

22 Q. Thank you. You are talking about infantry weapons. What was

23 your gun that you used, your rifle?

24 A. Automatic rifle.

25 Q. Can you tell us, what was the range, and I am not talking about

Page 16145

1 the killing range, but I am talking about the theoretical range of such a

2 weapon?

3 A. The range was up to about 800 metres. And the shooting is done

4 up to 400 metres.

5 Q. When you say "800 metres" is that starting from 800 metres, the

6 bullets stops, does it go into the ground, fall to the ground?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you now please describe the situation

9 regarding the uniforms. First of all, in 1992 and 1993, what was the

10 situation on -- for you personally? Did you have a uniform at that time?

11 A. In 1992 we didn't have uniforms, but we were in civilian clothes

12 and spent practically the entire year, except for individuals who managed

13 somehow to get some parts of uniform. But the uniform we didn't have,

14 but we were in civilian clothes, with some details. Perhaps a cap or a

15 part of a uniform, whatever anyone could lay their hands on.

16 Q. Thank you very much. For 1992 and for 1993, as far as uniform

17 was concerned, what was the situation among the opposing forces, the

18 enemy forces?

19 A. Very similar, the same. They couldn't get uniforms either. They

20 also had all kinds of parts of uniforms. Some people had uniforms of the

21 reserve police force. Most people would have some vestige of uniform

22 with civilian parts of clothing as well.

23 Q. Witness, can you tell us what was the colour of the uniforms used

24 by the enemy from the moment when the enemy started using uniforms, and

25 if there are different colours, can you tell us which ones they are,

Page 16146

1 which ones they were?

2 A. These were what we called camouflage uniforms, dark green colour

3 or black-green colour. And then also of the reserve police force

4 uniforms which is blue.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you see with your own eyes such uniforms?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. What I mean is both the leopard-type uniforms the

8 black-green uniforms and the blue uniforms?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. These uniforms, were they worn indistinctly by the

11 persons who were attacking?

12 A. Not --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

14 MR. STAMP: The witness seems to understand the question but

15 perhaps it could be clarified so we know what the answer relates to.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am going to

18 rephrase this question in a different way.

19 Q. Witness, when the attacks took place, the enemies, did they --

20 the enemy, did they wear uniforms occasionally?

21 A. They wore uniforms after the 1993, but before in 1992 only

22 individuals had uniforms. It was later on that everybody had uniforms

23 after 1993.

24 Q. I am talking about the persons who wore uniforms or parts of

25 uniform in 1993. Did you see them, yes or no?

Page 16147

1 A. In 1993, a majority had uniforms, camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you also see in 1993 blue uniforms

3 that were worn by the men, persons, soldiers, attacking, yes or no?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you very much. What kind of uniforms were they?

6 A. These were the uniforms of the reserve police force, it is just

7 like a soldiers uniforms except that it is blue.

8 Q. Specifically, since you are talking about the police force, do

9 you know if the police force was also engaged and deployed in combat?

10 A. Very frequently.

11 Q. How do you know that?

12 A. We know that because in cases of attack we also saw the blue

13 uniforms and the green camouflage uniforms.

14 Q. Did the police forces were the only ones that had blue uniforms?

15 A. I think, yes.

16 Q. Were there paramilitary units in the area of Sedrenik?

17 A. In the start of the war when the conflict broke out before the

18 war started, we were stopped by some kind of reserve police, but in fact

19 these were paramilitary units. And they were checking the area before

20 the conflict broke out, and after the conflict broke out, we didn't even

21 go down there any more. They were checking the vehicles, they were

22 checking the IDs and so on.

23 Q. Thank you. What was the colour of their uniforms or the colour

24 or the colours of their uniforms?

25 A. Blue.

Page 16148

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. With caps. They called berets, the so-called Green Berets.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] On the ELMO, could we have

5 the P3756 so that the witness can answer some other questions.

6 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, so that we can all find our bearings, very

9 rapidly, could you please point where was what you called Mala Kula, a

10 small fort?

11 A. It is here, but you can't see it very well because of the aerial

12 here. You can just see the top of it.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness points to a hill

15 which is to the left of the photograph just at the foot below what looks

16 like to be an electrical aerial.

17 Q. Witness, to the right of the location that you pointed to, that

18 is middle of the photograph you see a ridge. Can you please point to it.

19 A. This here.

20 Q. Thank you. What is its name, the name of that ridge?

21 A. It is called Spicasta Stijena, sharpstone feature.

22 Q. Thank you. At the foot of that ridge we see a kind of brown area

23 in the -- below the pine trees. Can you please indicate, point, that

24 above the road --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness is pointing to a

Page 16149

1 brownish area.

2 Q. What is it?

3 A. These were trenches that were used by the opposing forces. That

4 is their first line.

5 Q. Was this the first line that you earlier drew on the map, on the

6 plan?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Between your lines that we believe that they are on

9 the top part of the hill, and this point here, what is the nature of the

10 terrain? What is the slope of the terrain?

11 A. Below our line there is a slope. It goes downwards. And as you

12 can see it on the photograph it goes up and then it goes much more steeply

13 downwards.

14 Q. Thank you. Does this explain what we can see on the map, that the

15 lines are very near, although the distance can be a lot greater when we

16 bear in mind the steepness?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you please show with your

19 pointer a group of houses that represented the defence lines facing your

20 positions? Could you point to them, please, on the plateau of Sedrenik,

21 the valley of Sedrenik.

22 A. There were several lines here. This was the first line here.

23 Q. Okay. Do it very slowly. The second one.

24 A. Here. That's the first line going here, this way. And here you

25 can see a trench, a communicating tunnel for trenches --

Page 16150

1 Q. Very well. Stop there. Leave the pointer. Don't move it.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you. No. Yes. Leave it there. Don't move it.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness drew a line which

5 goes below the little fort towards the wood, goes down the slope and then

6 joins just above the road we see on the photograph, the communicating

7 trenches, the trenches that we see just below the trees.

8 Q. Witness, to the right of your pointer there is a group of houses.

9 Can you see? Below. Below.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness points to the group

13 of the houses below to the right of the road, right in the photograph.

14 Q. Witness, what did these houses represent in terms of a defence?

15 What were these houses?

16 A. In terms of the defence these houses represented the second line

17 of defence. On this photograph you can also see the communicating

18 trenches. This is where their second line was set up. And here, between

19 the houses. There were also communicating trenches that were dug up.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the

21 witness is indicating two groups of houses. The first one is more to the

22 centre to the right of the photograph, and the second one is more in the

23 upper part, slightly diagonally to the right.

24 Q. Witness, the photograph that you saw earlier, this double

25 photograph that you had a look at, in your opinion, from which location

Page 16151

1 could it have been taken, that is the view that we had on the two

2 photographs earlier, in your opinion, from where could it have been taken?

3 A. This photograph could have been taken about here --

4 Q. Don't move your pointer. Don't move your pointer.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing

7 approximately below an object which is white and red, which we think are

8 houses. And this is the part corresponding to the upper third of the

9 ridge near a slightly whitish area.

10 Q. Thank you. Witness, as far as the 906 elevation, you said that

11 this was under the control of the enemy. Where is, in your opinion, 906

12 elevation point located on this photograph?

13 A. Here. It is located here, just behind the aerial, this aerial

14 here.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness points

16 approximately on the electric aerial which is on the top of the hill to

17 the left of the photograph.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, here. On the top. The

19 elevation point is always top of something, like a hill.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you. What is the distance between this point and the fort

22 that you had under your control called Mala Kula, the little fort, the

23 small fort?

24 A. About 100 metres.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 16152

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This photograph can be

2 removed from the screen. Could we please have photograph 3760. And in

3 the meantime, I am going to ask the witness other questions regarding

4 fighting.

5 Q. Did you find yourself personally in a situation of fighting when

6 considerable attacks were launched by the enemy?

7 A. Yes, very frequently.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you give us some dates of considerable enemy

9 attack?

10 A. These large-scale attacks were very frequent. And that depended

11 on which period we are talking about. There were many.

12 Q. Very well. If we talk about spring 1993, summer 1993, what was

13 the situation there?

14 A. Spring of 1993 I know that they had taken, during an attack,

15 sharpstone feature from us, that is one trench which we called Kristine

16 [phoen] because there were three trenches on the sharpstone feature. And

17 this last trench next to Mala Kula ran there and it was taken from us at

18 the end of -- spring, it was April, end of April 1993.

19 Q. Thank you. When you say that you lost sharpstone feature, do you

20 mean that you lost the elevations as well?

21 A. We just lost that one trench on the sharpstone feature. That is

22 just one part of it.

23 Q. Can you please show that on the photograph -- no, the other

24 photograph.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we look at this

Page 16153

1 photograph later. Thank you. The previous one which is 3756, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Can I please have

3 something a little thinner because I think on this photograph this

4 pointer would represent some 50 metres or something. Here. Here.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. No, please don't mark it. Don't write anything, please. I am

8 sorry, I am just trying to make it easier for you to a point.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the usher please

10 approach me. Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, what you are currently indicating with the white pointer,

12 it's what you lost or what you were able to defend?

13 A. That's what in April 1993 we lost this part.

14 Q. Very well.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to

16 the right border of the whitish area which is on top of the ridge, saying

17 that this was what was lost in April --

18 Q. Which year? Which year, Witness?

19 A. 1993. And after that there were a couple of other occasions too.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was just checking for the

22 transcript.

23 Q. When you lost this facility, I think you spoke about April 1993,

24 was that the first half of April or the second half of April 1993?

25 A. In the second half of April.

Page 16154

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you said "to the right

3 border of the whitish area" did you intend to say the left border or?

4 Where the witness now is pointing I would consider to be the right part

5 of the whitish area, and where he pointed at was rather in the upper left

6 corner. Would you agree? Where he is pointing at now, you described

7 that as the right corner. I would rather think of it as the left corner,

8 the left upper corner.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, could you please show again with your pointer so that we

11 can see exactly where you are pointing.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to --

14 thank you -- to two facilities -- perhaps if you could move your hand. I

15 know it is not easy. Here it is. Thank you. On two facilities that are

16 to the left of the pointer and they seem to us to be two facilities

17 either walls or houses.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. But these two

19 facilities are at a distance from this point here. But it just seems

20 that they are close to each other. But between this point and these two

21 facilities, these two houses, is 200 metres. It just looks closer on the

22 photograph. Between this point and these two facilities, there is some

23 200 metres. Because the way the terrain is laid out, that's what it

24 looks like.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 16155

1 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, in the days that followed the loss

2 of these facilities, were there -- was there intense fighting in order to

3 retake these facilities?

4 A. We took it back in two days' time, that part there.

5 Q. Thank you. Witness, were you in a position to hear the fighting?

6 A. When I was present there.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, let's move on to July 1993 and the end of

8 this month. Was there any large-scale fighting in your area?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Witness, we will now show you another photograph.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is 3760. The usher will

12 place it on the ELMO, immediately.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, meanwhile, I inform you --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Four minutes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Four minutes. Okay, that is fine.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, you can see this photograph which we examined in part

18 earlier on. To the right there is the serpentine form of a beige or

19 brownish path. Can you see it?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness showed to this

23 "S" shaped path, an S-shaped mark.

24 Q. What does this represent?

25 A. This is the trench that was used by the enemy side. It goes from

Page 16156

1 the bottom from these houses and reaches as far as this peak here.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, the trees that we can see there, did that

3 correspond to the edge of the forest that you indicated to us a minute

4 ago near to the hill where we have elevation number 906?

5 A. Yes. Elevation 906, it's somewhere there. You can't see it on

6 the photograph, but it is behind.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, at the bottom of the photograph and towards

8 the left corner we can see a cylindrical structure with a grey top. Can

9 you see it? Can you point to it?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness did so.

13 Q. Witness, slightly to the right of this object we can see darker

14 traces on the ground which join up with a house. A little further down,

15 a little further --

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Thank you. Can you see a line, further up. Further up, Witness.

18 Can you see a light house? Further up. Further up. Even further.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Witness, further up, please. Go up. No.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Thank you. Stop. To the left now. To the left. Laterally.

23 Further up.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Can you see a zone there? Can you see a darker land zone there?

Page 16157

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is it?

3 A. This light area, this represents trenches. It was the second

4 line of defence which I drew a minute ago on the map. That is the second

5 line of defence. You can see the trenches here and this is where they

6 were, it went in this direction. I don't think this house was there.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. The witness

8 pointed to a lighter land areas in the field, in the foreground and

9 slightly to the right of the cylindrical object. We can remove this

10 photograph from the screen.

11 Q. Witness, you told us that you went to the village of Mrkovici to

12 sleep, to have a rest. Why did you do this?

13 A. Well, because I had a family house in Mrkovici.

14 Q. Very well. You said it was there. What has happened to it now?

15 A. The house was set on fire two years ago.

16 Q. And who did that, can you tell us?

17 MR. STAMP: Is this relevant to hear about?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what is the relevance? If this

19 could be -- may I ask you, Mr. DP53, do you understand or speak any

20 English and/or French?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could ask the witness to take his

23 earphones off. Mr. Stamp, I take it that the witness cannot follow the

24 English or French, but if you would have any hesitation then --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is

Page 16158

1 relevant in that it doesn't, in fact, concern the events that concern

2 Mr. -- General Galic and the events that concern his responsibility. It

3 has to do with the proceedings itself. We have many witnesses who are

4 afraid of measures. If they came to testify in open session, they would

5 tell us we are afraid for our families, our property, et cetera. And we

6 have a witness here who tells us that his house was set on fire two years

7 ago. And I think that it is necessary to provide you with such

8 information. You should be aware of this, to be aware of what the

9 witnesses are afraid of. This is not something that we imagine, but it is

10 something that they may really fear on a daily basis, since they -- their

11 people and friends who have experienced such things. That's why it is

12 relevant.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I am a bit surprised that this has not been -- has

14 been -- has been one of the reasons why you applied for protective

15 measures. But if that would demonstrate to us clearly, but I have no

16 objection. Please, the Chamber will allow you to put this question, but

17 in this limited sense. Mr. Usher, could you please ask the witness to

18 put his headphones on again.

19 Mr. DP53, the question was whether you know who put your family

20 house to fire? Please answer that question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't personally know that,

22 but the house is in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and probably --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please move to your next subject, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. When you went to Mrkovici and you said that this was almost on a

Page 16159

1 weekly basis, did you ever have the opportunity of seeing an artillery

2 unit of any kind which had heavy -- large-calibre mortars, 120-millimetre

3 mortars?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat that answer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the answer, Mr. DP53,

6 because it was not heard by the interpreters.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see Mrkovici. It was

8 an inhabited place.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

10 Mr. President. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Mr. Stamp, is the

12 Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?

13 Mr. DP53, you will now be examined by counsel for the

14 Prosecution.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp:

16 Q. Do you know an officer in your brigade by the name of Cvetkovic?

17 A. No.

18 MR. STAMP: Perhaps the interpreters might help me it is spelt

19 C-V-E-T-K-O-V-I-C with a half banana over the "C" if that could be

20 translated to the witness.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know. I didn't know

22 him. I've heard about him, but I didn't know him personally.

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16160

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]


8 Q. Do you know who the artillery commander for your brigade or for

9 the Mrkovici area was, if there was one?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. You said you never saw any artillery or mortar positions in the

12 region of Mrkovici; is that your evidence?

13 A. No, I didn't see any.

14 Q. Do you know what it sounds like when a mortar fires or an

15 artillery gun fires? Do you know the sound?

16 A. You can hear it, but not that much, only if you are in the

17 vicinity, but not if you are further away.

18 Q. But that is not what I asked you. I asked you if you know the

19 sound of the firing, and I presume your answer is you do, know the sound.

20 A. Well, more or less.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is a

22 problem with the transcript, at least with the French transcript. One of

23 the interpreters that I have been listening to didn't hear the witness's

24 answer.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to repeat that last answer and to

Page 16161

1 speak clearly and loud to the microphone, because the interpreters who

2 have to translate everything you say so that we can understand it, they

3 have some difficulties in hearing you. So could you please repeat your

4 last answer. The last answer by Mr. Stamp is whether you knew the sound

5 and then you answered. Could you repeat that.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depended on what was involved.

7 You could hear the sound of heavy artillery, but further away, but the

8 sound of a mortar couldn't be heard at a distance when a shell is fired.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is not entirely repetition of your previous

10 answer, but it is at least a more extensive answer. Please proceed, Mr.

11 Stamp.


13 Q. Well, from about how far could you hear when an artillery gun is

14 fired?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yet again, the

16 problem concerns the competence of the person, that's the issue. And in

17 accordance with the general rules, we must determine whether the witness

18 is in a position to comment on such matters.

19 JUDGE ORIE: In his previous answer the witness did say anything

20 about distances from which you could hear, so the next question is a

21 logical one that follows. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


23 Q. Did you hear my last question and understand it?

24 A. Well, not that well.

25 Q. I want to know from about how far you can hear an artillery gun

Page 16162

1 being fired from?

2 A. Perhaps a few kilometers, a couple of kilometers.

3 Q. And about how far would you say that you -- well, let me ask you

4 this: While you were at home in Mrkovici or on the line where you were

5 stationed, did you ever hear artillery guns or mortars being fired from

6 the region, the area where the village of Mrkovici is?

7 A. Not from mortars because they probably don't make such a sound,

8 when you fire from mortars. But when heavy artillery was used.

9 Q. We don't want to waste time so I am going to try to understand

10 what you are saying. Basically, I take it you have never heard the sound

11 of a mortar being fired from the area of the village of Mrkovici?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have heard -- and I am asking -- have you heard artillery

14 guns being fired from the area of the village of Mrkovici?

15 A. Fire was never opened if there wasn't an infantry attack. So

16 such times there was fire coming from all directions. So it was very

17 difficult to determine what was being fired from because the sound is

18 such, and the layout of the terrain is such that it is difficult to

19 determine what weapons are being used. It is difficult to determine

20 whether it is a shell that is falling or whether it is a shooting, and

21 fire was never opened in peaceful conditions.

22 Q. Let's get back to the question I asked you. Can you tell us

23 whether or not you have ever heard artillery guns being fired in the area

24 of the village of Mrkovici?

25 A. Not from the area of Mrkovici.

Page 16163

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question

2 has been answered, but I wanted to say that the witness had said in his

3 previous response that it was almost impossible to determine where fire

4 was coming from.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness has now answered the question, so,

6 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

7 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.

8 Q. Would you agree or disagree with the statement that in the year

9 proceeding or the 12-month time proceeding February 1994, 30.000 or more

10 rounds, artillery and mortar rounds had been fired from the area of

11 Mrkovici into the city?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You would not agree with that?

14 A. No.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness

18 has answered on two occasions --

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... before you now,

20 he has not answered the question just put by Mr. Stamp. He has answered

21 questions about whether he ever heard something, that's a personal

22 observation, that's how I understand the question and that question has

23 been answered. And now something else is put to the witness.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wanted

25 to say, but perhaps the witness should take his headphones off.

Page 16164

1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please take your headphones off for a

2 second.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say, the

4 question, as it was put, how can we know whether 30.000 shells were

5 fired? What's the extent of human memory? How can we ask whether

6 someone can remember the number of shells fired? It is a good example of

7 a question that is almost impossible to answer. That's what I wanted to

8 say.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's a -- it's a question, if you understood

10 the question to be exactly 30.000, I would fully agree with you that

11 spending your days in counting every single shell would not be possible.

12 But that's not how I understood the question. I understood the question

13 to be that in a huge number --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: The question to you was whether you have any

18 knowledge, whether you heard it by yourself or -- yes, please.

19 Mr. Stamp put the question to you whether you were aware that in

20 1993, almost during the whole year, a huge number of artillery and mortar

21 rounds were fired from Mrkovici into the city? Do you know anything

22 about that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from Mrkovici.

24 JUDGE ORIE: From any other place?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The artillery was only used if our

Page 16165

1 lines were attacked.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, please proceed.


4 Q. Witness, the President asked if you know of artillery shells

5 being fired into the city from any other place but Mrkovici, do you know?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You never saw it and you never heard it?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Very well. Were you posted on the ridge at Spicasta Stijena or

10 at the fortress that you call Kula -- Mala Kula or in the area of both

11 places?

12 A. Well, at all places, from Mala Kula to Velika Kula.

13 Q. And you said -- so how often were you at Velika Kula?

14 A. Well, the disposition changed every ten days.

15 Q. And you'd be -- can I take it do you mean that you would be at

16 Velika Kula for 10 days and then at Mala Kula for another 10 days?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And sometimes you would be on the sharpstone ridge for 10 days?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How far did you say Velika Kula is from Mala Kula, as the crow

21 flies?

22 A. About 2 and a half kilometers. 2.500 metres.

23 Q. You said there was firing from the -- or may I ask you: You said

24 that -- is it your evidence that there was firing from the barracks in

25 the Bakija area?

Page 16166

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you return the fire?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You personally?

5 A. Not personally, but it depended who was on the line.

6 Q. If --

7 A. But immediately just next to the barracks there was fire opened

8 from a mortar, so with infantry weapons you can't really respond. It is

9 a lot of distance between.

10 Q. So when I asked you earlier did you return the fire to the Bakija

11 area, and you said "yes" well, I have it as "yes" in answer, you really

12 meant no, you didn't return the fire to the Bakija area; is that correct?

13 A. The barracks in the Bakija area where it is, it's from our

14 positions the distance is about 1.200 metres, approximately.

15 Q. So you didn't return the fire?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did any other VRS military unit try to fire at those mortars or

18 that mortar?

19 A. They tried to fire into -- at near the command of the battalion

20 there were mortars. And we used them in the case of their attack. So we

21 would inform the commander of the battalion that we were attacked and

22 then they would undertake further steps to protect us by these mortars,

23 when we were attacked.

24 Q. So the command of the battalion would return the fire with

25 mortars; is that what your answer is?

Page 16167

1 A. Yes. Yes. Not the command, but next to the command attached to

2 the command of the battalion there was a unit. I don't know what they

3 are called, what it's called, but they had mortars, the unit had mortars.

4 Q. What type of mortars did this unit have?

5 A. I don't know. I didn't see them. I never saw them.

6 Q. What calibre?

7 A. I never saw them, but I believe that they had -- no.

8 Q. You believe they had what, what calibres?

9 A. I think they had 82 and 100 -- 120-millimetres.

10 Q. Do you know where these mortars were located?

11 A. No. That was somewhere behind, somewhere further up.

12 Q. When you say "behind" you mean behind your lines as you faced

13 Sarajevo?

14 A. Behind the settlement.

15 Q. Behind which settlement?

16 A. Mrkovici.

17 Q. Do you have upper Mrkovici or --

18 A. Somewhere further behind, somewhere further up. Yes. I lived in

19 the upper part of Mrkovici.

20 Q. So how far did you live from these mortar batteries?

21 A. I don't know where they were stationed.

22 Q. But you know it is somewhere further up and you lived further up;

23 is that correct?

24 A. No. I was in the upper part of Mrkovici and I don't know where

25 they were stationed, these...

Page 16168

1 Q. How did you become aware that there were mortar batteries there?

2 A. Well in the event of attack, we asked, that was through the

3 company commander, we requested assistance, and then he then informed

4 further on to the higher command.

5 Q. How do you know that there were mortars, as you put it further

6 behind, somewhere further up?

7 A. They were probably somewhere because they were not there in the

8 sector.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, we are close to the time where we usually

10 have a break. If you would find a suitable moment, please inform me.

11 MR. STAMP: This is an appropriate moment, suitable moment.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We will then have a break until five minutes to 6.00

13 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

15 MR. STAMP: Before the witness is brought in, there was an issue

16 raised earlier today as to the propriety of putting to the witness --

17 JUDGE ORIE: We discussed it and as a matter of fact the Chamber

18 intended to give some more guidance to the parties at a later stage, that

19 will be next Monday. But --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: To give you some guidance, the majority of the

22 Chamber does not oppose against to putting to a witness, even if that

23 would be putting to a witness a potential involvement in crimes committed.

24 One of the other things is the way it is done. You can do it in different

25 ways. And the Chamber is -- would be reluctant to accept that it is done

Page 16169

1 in such a way that the witness might feel less free to give answers to

2 questions. So it is for the majority of the Chamber, it is still a

3 concern, the way it is done, but the majority of the Chamber does not

4 oppose against putting it to a witness.

5 MR. STAMP: Very well.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

9 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Do you know Vaso Nikolic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was he a member of your company?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Have you met him here in The Hague?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have you discussed his testimony with him?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How many members were there in your company?

19 A. Well, the manpower situation changed because it would happen that

20 there would be many injured. But it was about 100. It would be 110, 90,

21 something like that.

22 Q. How many would normally be stationed or posted at the ridge

23 called Spicasta Stijena?

24 A. Depended on the people who were on disposal. It would be from 7

25 to 10. If there were many who were wounded, many who were not in the

Page 16170

1 company, then, of course, it would be fewer. Of course, if there was an

2 attack, then everyone from the company would come to the line.

3 Q. Now, was there an observation post on that ridge?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was it on the edge of the ridge?

6 A. No. Below the edge of the ridge their forces were, and because

7 this part could be seen from Sedrenik, it couldn't be there because it

8 was constantly fired at, so you couldn't go right to the edge of the

9 ridge.

10 Q. Let me try to understand you. You couldn't place it at the edge

11 of the ridge because it could be seen from Sedrenik; is that your

12 evidence?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do I understand you to mean that you had to place it somewhere

15 where it could not be seen from Sedrenik, and that is why it was placed

16 behind the edge of the ridge?

17 A. Well, it would be slightly withdrawn from the actual edge of the

18 ridge. It would be more inward. Because the rock or the stone doesn't

19 go right steeply, it goes up and then up to a height and then it goes

20 downwards.

21 Q. So it would be in that position, I take it, because it could not

22 be seen from Sedrenik in that position?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From the position where it was put, could it see into Sedrenik?

25 A. Well, that one part that I drew there.

Page 16171

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness

2 answered, but bearing in mind that there was a previous answer given it

3 would be good to clarify the question because the witness said that one

4 section could not be seen.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That part that I drew could be

6 seen.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if you ask for a clarification do not

8 explain why the clarification is needed, because that might guide the

9 witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So let's try to avoid whatever influence to

10 be put on the answers of the witness by the party who called the witness.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. It was in a position where you could see part of Sedrenik?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the part of Sedrenik that you could see from that observation

16 post could also see the observation post or the place where the

17 observation post was; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. From what position could you see the barracks at Bakija?

20 A. That barracks could be seen from the observation point.

21 Q. And was it possible to fire in the direction of the barracks from

22 the observation point? I want you to understand the question clearly. I

23 am not asking you if it was possible to fire at the barracks itself, but

24 the direction of the barracks from the observation point.

25 A. It was possible to fire but there was no effect because it was

Page 16172

1 far too far away to fire with infantry weapons all the way to the

2 barracks.

3 Q. I see. But the village or the community of Sedrenik which is

4 closer to the observation point than the barracks, was it possible to

5 fire into Sedrenik?

6 A. It was possible to fire, but again, there is a great distance.

7 There is no effect.

8 Q. Along that line into Sedrenik, have you ever seen civilians?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to

12 have a clarification. Perhaps we should ask the witness not to answer so

13 quickly. Perhaps the witness could remove his earphones, please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please take off your earphones. Yes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

16 reason why I am objecting is the following: We have the words "line into

17 Sedrenik" so I don't know whether this is a hypothetical line, which would

18 have been a target line or a firing line or are we talking about a defence

19 line. If we are talking about the line of defence, then we should know

20 that there are three of them so which one is it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Along that line into Sedrenik and as far as I am

22 aware there was no line of defence ever drawn by the witness along which

23 you could fire into Sedrenik.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

25 MR. STAMP: Very well. I will clarify that.

Page 16173

1 Q. We were talking earlier about your line of vision from your

2 observation post to the barracks of Bakija, Witness. Would you agree --

3 A. I didn't hear it from the very beginning.

4 Q. I see.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you put your question again.

6 MR. STAMP: I see.

7 Q. Is it your evidence that you could see the barracks at Bakija

8 from your observation post on Spicasta Stijena?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And between those barracks and your observation post there is the

11 community of Sedrenik; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in the community of Sedrenik, have you ever seen civilians?

14 A. No, except in the beginning in 1992, I already told you, nobody

15 knew who was a civilian, who was soldier. There were no uniforms. We

16 didn't have them; they didn't have them. But later on, no.

17 Q. In 1993 did you see civilians in Sedrenik at all? Did you see

18 any person in Sedrenik --

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness's

20 answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters have not heard your last answer.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which part, I am sorry. No.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


25 Q. Did you see any person in Sedrenik at all?

Page 16174

1 A. No, not even the army. Because the communicating trenches were

2 dug up, which they used to walk through, so it was hard to see anyone,

3 when they would come to the positions, when they would be leaving the

4 positions.

5 Q. Very well. I just want to make it clear. In the entire year

6 1993, you saw no person in Sedrenik?

7 A. No. We didn't see any civilians anywhere.

8 Q. No, no. In 1993, did you see any person, whether it be civilian

9 or military, in Sedrenik?

10 A. No. In 1993 we had several attacks among others. It is the

11 first time that I was wounded, in 1993. So there was frequent fighting

12 and in the event of an attack you couldn't really watch down there any

13 more. Because we had to withdraw to this line of the defence. If you

14 want me to illustrate, I can, what the sharpstone rock feature looked

15 like. It looks like these desks you have before you. So it would be --

16 there would be a plateau and then it would go vertical and we would be

17 behind there.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]


20 Q. I take it, therefore, there was no need for you to use infantry

21 weapons except in case of an attack?

22 A. Yes. We didn't use them.

23 Q. Now, could you see the trenches from your -- could you see the

24 enemy trenches from your trenches on Spicasta Stijena?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.

Page 16175

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please take your headphones off.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I want

3 to have a precision because the witness showed us very clearly several

4 lines of defence, and it could make a difference as to what we are

5 thinking about.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, I think it would be useful to

7 perhaps be a bit more precise in that respect. I would not say that the

8 question is inadmissible, but could easily lead to a lot of confusion.

9 Please proceed.


11 Q. While you were posted --

12 JUDGE ORIE: First the witness should have his earphones on.

13 Yes.

14 MR. STAMP: I am sorry to ask the witness to remove his earphone,

15 because I would really like the witness to answer the question I asked.

16 And if I may with your leave --

17 JUDGE ORIE: As I said, the question was not inadmissible, the

18 previous question --

19 MR. STAMP: Perhaps I rephrase it. Very well.



22 Q. You showed us on a photograph and on a map what you say were the

23 lines of defence. Now my question is this: From your positions in

24 Spicasta Stijena or Mala Kula, could you see any of them during the

25 conflict?

Page 16176

1 A. From the sharpstone we were able to look or to see the second and

2 the third line that I -- as I drew that on the map where from the second

3 and the third line of defence could be seen. The first line. That's

4 just according to the information, and I know where they were firing at

5 us from.

6 Q. Now, did you fire towards these lines?

7 A. Only in the event of their attack or some acts of provocation.

8 Q. If you saw an enemy soldiers armed anywhere, would you fire at

9 that soldier even if there was no attack going on at the time?

10 A. It depends on which sector. If it is in the immediate vicinity

11 of the defence line, normally I would fire because that's how sabotage

12 groups were approaching trying to infiltrate without an attack. Normally

13 in the sector of defence, of course.

14 Q. If you saw an enemy soldier within the range of your gun, would

15 you fire at him, anywhere within the range of your gun, I am asking?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And that is because you are obeying orders not to fire except if

18 there was an attack; is that your evidence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did that apply throughout the indictment -- well, did that apply

21 throughout the period August 1992 to September 1994?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, in the course of your military duties when you had to fire,

24 where did you fire to, which area did you fire towards?

25 A. It depends on the trench that I was in at that moment.

Page 16177

1 Q. I see.

2 A. Whether --

3 Q. From the trenches on Spicasta Stijena which areas did you fire

4 towards?

5 A. From the trenches on the Spicasta Stijena you cannot see anything

6 except that slope in front. It is only from the observation post that

7 you would see part of Sedrenik, but from the trenches you would only see

8 that part of Spicasta Stijena which isn't vertical. And there is also

9 another bit which goes around Trebevic, the transit road around Trebevic.

10 Just like here, from here, I can't see what is behind there.

11 Q. All I am asking is simply where would you fire to when you were

12 in those trenches?

13 A. Well, if we fired from the trenches, that would mean that there

14 would come already to the rock and they would be firing mortars or some

15 other weapons. So the distance would be 20 metres. If they were using

16 hand held launchers and other weapons then we would be firing at them and

17 they would be firing in front of us.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP53, I think that you have to listen very

19 careful to the questions of Mr. Stamp and try to understand them and to

20 answer them as precise as possible.

21 The question was where you were firing at from those trenches,

22 and I did hear your answer. You said they were already close, if we had

23 to fire from those trenches. Then where you -- when you --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but that's the direction

25 towards Sedrenik, downwards.

Page 16178

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stamp. I will not

2 interfere any more.


4 Q. Is it your answer, are you saying that from the trenches you

5 would be firing downwards towards Sedrenik?

6 A. In that direction.

7 Q. Very well. Would you be firing from the trenches downwards

8 towards Sedrenik?

9 A. Yes, in the event of an attack because it was from that direction

10 their troops came.

11 Q. You would be firing down the slopes of the ridge?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can I just get something quite clear in my own mind. Your

14 trenches were how far behind this edge or ridge that faces Sedrenik?

15 A. 15 to 20 metres.

16 Q. And do I take it from your evidence that there was a hump at the

17 edge of the ridge; is that correct?

18 A. Just like here, just like here in front of me.

19 Q. I see. You are indicating the box with the monitor in front of

20 you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is my understanding correct that to fire down the slopes towards

23 Sedrenik you would have to get out of your trenches and go to the edge

24 where there is that hump like the box with the monitor in front of you?

25 A. Yes, but in the event of firing it was impossible to get out

Page 16179

1 there because we would be fired at from below with the weapons, so you

2 couldn't get out on there. And otherwise, in peace conditions you could

3 never get to the very edge. You would get out once and never again.

4 Q. So from where would you fire down the slopes towards Sedrenik?

5 A. We didn't fire down the slope, but only from the trenches in the

6 event of their attack.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]


9 Q. Did you at any time -- I am sorry. Did you at any time see

10 screens and barricades in the area of Sedrenik? And by that I mean

11 anti-sniping screens and barricades in the community of Sedrenik.

12 A. They were in the trenches and the communicating trenches where

13 their troops walked, and that could be seen from the observation post.

14 Q. Very well.

15 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, could

16 my learned colleague proceed with the rest of the cross-examination?

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is my recollection correct that you were

19 not present during the examination-in-chief?

20 MR. IERACE: It is, Mr. President. I was following the evidence

21 from a monitor and preparing some material in relation to

22 cross-examination. If your concern is that I am not familiar with it, I

23 have not only followed it, but I have also read printouts of the LiveNote.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 16180

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think

2 that's very peculiar because we lost something here. If Mr. Ierace was

3 all this time following it from his TV screen and reading the LiveNote,

4 why wasn't he here? I believe that the rule is such that there is no

5 cross-examination by the counsel unless he was there all the time, unless

6 he was partially informed elsewhere.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The majority decision of the Chamber is that

8 Mr. Ierace is allowed to cross-examine the witness up to the very moment

9 where it appears to the Chamber that he is not fully aware of what

10 happened during examination-in-chief, just as we allowed the Defence to

11 cross-examine the witness even if counsel had not been present during the

12 examination-in-chief, up to the moment where it appeared that counsel was

13 not informed about what happened during the examination-in-chief.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

17 Q. Sir, you told us that from the trenches you could not see, that

18 is from your trenches, you could not see the first line of trenches of

19 the defence; and you've told us that the observation post was positioned

20 back behind the ridge. How then were you able to make sure that enemy

21 troops did not make their way from their front line trench up the slope?

22 A. If they went to the stone feature, they would attack us, they

23 would fire at us with Zoljas. That is a distance of about 20 to 30

24 metres. That's how we lost those two trenches on two occasions. When

25 they were on the sharpstone feature itself, they would start firing at

Page 16181

1 us. And after that, they would enter the trenches. And this is how we

2 lost those trenches at the sharpstone feature on a couple of occasions.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would

4 appreciate it if Mr. Ierace would follow this on the monitor, could tell

5 us whether the witness used the term "back behind the ridge" because I

6 don't think that is exactly what he said in Serbian. Could we be provided

7 would the exact quote, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, not in Serbian, I take it.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, to save time, my recollection is that

10 one of the questions that made that clear was a question asked by

11 Mr. Stamp as to how far back from the edge were the trenches to which the

12 witness replied, 15 to 20 metres.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that is not the observation post, is it?

14 That is the trenches. That's not the same, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: No, I accept that, Mr. President, but I maintain

16 that the witness did in any event say that the trenches were behind the

17 ridge line. It was in the last period of evidence.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ierace, I am going to read the question

19 and the answer.

20 "Was there an observation post on that ridge?

21 "Yes.

22 "Was it on the edge of the ridge?

23 "No, below the edge of the ridge."

24 It is line 64 -- page 64, line 23.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour. I accept that. Although

Page 16182

1 I -- my recollection is that there were questions about the ridge being --

2 I am sorry, the trenches being behind the ridge, perhaps I can clarify

3 that and continue with the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would rather first clarify it for ourselves,

5 Mr. Ierace, because we allowed you to cross-examine under a certain

6 condition.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, page 73 line 3 the question: "Can I

8 just get something quite clear in my mind. Your trenches were how far

9 behind this edge or ridge that faces Sedrenik?"

10 Answer: "15 to 20 metres."

11 JUDGE ORIE: You said page 73, line -- I haven't found it yet.

12 You said page 73 line --

13 MR. IERACE: 3 to 4.


15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Your question to which an objection was made was

18 about an observation post, if I am correct.

19 MR. IERACE: The question is: "You told us that from the

20 trenches that you could not see, that is from your trenches, you could

21 not see the first line of trenches of the defence." That is the first

22 proposition, which in my recollection is sound in terms of the evidence.

23 I read on from that: "And you've told us that the observation post was

24 positioned back behind the ridge." And I think the passage read out by

25 His Honour Judge Nieto-Navia establishes that.

Page 16183

1 Reading on: "How then were you able to make sure that enemy

2 troops did not make their way from their front line trench up the slope?"

3 JUDGE ORIE: That is not exactly the same. Behind and below is

4 not exactly the same. The Chamber would prefer that Mr. Stamp continues

5 to cross-examine the witness. And of course you may - as we allow the

6 Defence to always - assist each other by consultation.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

8 MR. STAMP: If I may just have a moment, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just want to

13 point out that I will need five minutes after this intervention in order

14 to put certain other questions. And unfortunately I won't be here on

15 Monday. If this could be taken into account, I would appreciate it.

16 MR. STAMP: I will proceed, Mr. President, quite speedily.

17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

18 Q. I suggest to you, Witness, that there were anti-sniping barriers

19 put up at the intersections in Sedrenik; is that correct or not?

20 A. I didn't see any.

21 Q. Did troops of your unit shoot at any motor vehicle of any

22 description in the area of Sedrenik?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you say, Witness, whether or not troops from your units

25 positioned at Spicasta Stijena fired at any person in Sedrenik?

Page 16184

1 A. No, they didn't. Only in the event of an attack, then they would

2 open fire in the direction of the attack.

3 Q. Are you saying that from your personal knowledge that none of

4 your troops at Spicasta Stijena fired at civilians or persons in Sedrenik,

5 is that from your personal knowledge?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that sometimes you were posted at Velika Kula 2 and a

8 half kilometers from Mala Kula. How far is that from Spicasta Stijena?

9 Or may I rephrase.

10 How far is Velika Kula from Spicasta Stijena?

11 A. I didn't say half a kilometre from Mala Kula. I said 2

12 kilometers from Mala Kula. That's a mistake. And it is about between

13 700 and 800 metres from Spicasta Stijena going towards the east.

14 Q. Let me ask you this: In the occasional 10 days that you were

15 posted at Velika Kula can you say from your own personal knowledge

16 whether or not soldiers on Spicasta Stijena fired at civilians in

17 Sedrenik?

18 A. Well, on the basis of what I myself know, I don't believe so.

19 Q. But you don't know?

20 A. Well, I can't claim this for certain for that period, but I am

21 not aware of it.

22 Q. I suggest to you, Witness, that members of the units, the

23 Sarajevo Romanija Corps units posted at Spicasta Stijena fired on

24 civilians in Sedrenik; is that correct?

25 A. No.

Page 16185

1 Q. I suggest to you that artillery guns and Howitzers positioned in

2 the area of Mrkovici regularly fired into Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying that that's not the

5 truth.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has answered that question. I don't

7 know whether there is any specific need --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Too late.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


11 Q. I suggest to you, Witness, that --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


14 Q. Or I would ask firstly, can you remember if there was a truce in

15 effect on the 17th of April, 1993?

16 A. I can't remember that because there was no truce. We were

17 attacked then and that is the first time I was wounded. So maybe there

18 was one in force, but not in reality.

19 Q. Do you remember the date you were wounded?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. What is it?

22 A. 17th of April, 1993.

23 Q. Where were you?

24 A. In a trench next to the sharpstone feature.

25 Q. How were you wounded? By what?

Page 16186

1 A. It was a bullet which fragmented.

2 Q. Do you remember the time of day?

3 A. Well, the attack lasted throughout the day, and that was about

4 half past 12.00. 12.30.

5 Q. Well, I suggest to you, Witness, that there was no attack that

6 day in your area of responsibility.

7 A. I have proof.

8 Q. What is your answer?

9 A. I am saying that I was wounded then and the effects of this wound

10 are still visible now.

11 Q. That is not an answer to my question. I am suggesting to you

12 that there was no --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, isn't that clear what the witness says.

14 MR. STAMP: Very well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please move to your next subject.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]


18 Q. You said you were wounded by a bullet. Where was this firing

19 coming from?

20 A. On that day I was in a trench between the Spicasta Stijena and

21 Mala Kula.

22 Q. Where was the firing coming from?

23 A. It was right in front of us, since their trenches in that area

24 were 80 metres in front of us. The area in between is a forested area.

25 Q. Can you say how many troops were involved in that attack?

Page 16187

1 A. It is difficult to say, but there were quite a few troops.

2 Q. You can give me an approximation.

3 A. Well over a hundred, for sure.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If it would be possible to

7 finish today with this witness, that would be preferable, but let's see

8 how much time you will need.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be very quick,

10 Mr. President. Thank you.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, if you could just answer the questions

13 by saying yes or no, if the questions allow you to do this, we would

14 appreciate it. You mentioned the 17th of April, you said that that's

15 when you were wounded. Do you know how many cartridge clips you emptied

16 on that day, approximately, in the course of the combat?

17 MR. STAMP: That is not a proper way to ask a question. But it

18 is already in. Did you fire, how many did you fire, it could have been

19 done like that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it the description given by the

21 witness --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we opened fire.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now the witness is answering the questions of

24 Mr. Stamp. It would be the proper questions on the other hand.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 16188

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. I apologise. I was assuming that there was a fighting.

3 Witness, if you did open fire, how many cartridge clips did you

4 personally empty on that day, on the 17th of April, 1993?

5 MR. STAMP: He repeats -- counsel --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly, but six

7 or seven for sure.

8 MR. STAMP: I object.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness has answered the

10 question.

11 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues] ... for the purposes

12 of the record. That type of question is highly improper and cause the

13 witness to put to the witness --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the proper way of doing is first

15 to find out whether there was any firing and then of course the next

16 question would have been whether the witness fired and whether he

17 participated or whether others were fired. So please proceed, but keep

18 in mind --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, gladly.

20 Q. Witness, you said that you had emptied about six cartridge clips.

21 Do you know whether your comrades in arm also opened fire in the course

22 of this attack; yes or no?

23 A. Well, after I had been wounded I was taken away from the lines

24 and the fighting continued until the evening, so, yes, for sure.

25 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. Cartridge clip or the sort of

Page 16189

1 cartridge clips that you had, how many shots does it contain?

2 A. Thirty.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Did the other men possess the same type of

4 weapons; yes or no?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, you were asked about returning fire and you

7 said that in general you wouldn't shoot because you were ordered only to

8 return fire, only to open fire in return. You said this page 66 and page

9 70. Do you remember having said that; yes or no?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, as you said that, am I to understand that

12 you were ordered, that you received orders, and who did you receive these

13 orders from?

14 A. We received these orders from our immediate superior, that is to

15 say the company commander. These orders would arrive very often. We

16 were told to save ammunition and not open fire unless we were attacked.

17 Q. What was the nature of these orders and how often were you given

18 such orders?

19 A. Well, we received such orders as new troops would often arrive --

20 usually when new troops would arrived these orders would be issued and

21 repeated to the others. I don't know, every 15 or 20 days.

22 Q. Thank you. Did these orders also cover the issue of protecting

23 civilians?

24 A. Yes, these orders always stated that civilians shouldn't be fired

25 at.

Page 16190

1 MR. STAMP: That doesn't arise.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it --

3 MR. STAMP: Also very leading.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is, I think, the 25th

5 or 30th or sometimes there is no objection, but now there is an objection.

6 It is justified. Please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will move on to

8 another subject. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You said you would be five minutes --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm -- I'll -- I'll move

11 on.

12 Q. Witness, you spoke about Mrkovici earlier on in relation to the

13 upper part of Mrkovici, and in relation to the artillery, do you remember

14 speaking about this?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I am not sure I heard your question very well in the

17 Serbian language. Could you confirm the following: Did you ever see any

18 kind of artillery unit in the upper part of Mrkovici; yes or no?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. When you said that there were mortars, was this an

21 assumption, is that how I am to understand your testimony?

22 A. There weren't any in the area of Mrkovici.

23 Q. Thank you. We will now move on to the issue of attacks. You

24 spoke about attacks launched against you, you spoke about lines and

25 trenches. The line, the barracks was discussed and my question is a dual

Page 16191

1 question: Was fire opened from so-called civilian houses, that is the

2 first part of my question; and the second part of my question is: What

3 could the naked eye see at a distance of 800 metres, approximately?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

5 MR. STAMP: Those --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Again, I warned you a couple of times,

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And now you are asking questions so I will --

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

10 Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I was just about to give a decision on the

12 objection, but since you have no more questions. Judge -- first of all,

13 I have to ask the technical booth and the interpreters whether we could

14 finish? I think it is just a matter of a few questions. If you would

15 agree then we could prevent the witness having to stay here for all the

16 weekend.

17 THE INTERPRETER: No problem for the interpreters, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I thank you for your cooperation. I think it is

19 important for you as well Mr. DP53, Judge El Mahdi has a question.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, could we place

23 exhibit -- the Defence exhibit, the two photographs on the ELMO, yes.

24 Witness, in your opinion, was this photograph taken from positions

25 which were under your control, that is to say under the control of Serbian

Page 16192

1 troops?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In that case, where was this

4 photograph taken from?

5 A. In front of those positions which were under the control of the

6 BH Army. You can see the trench that they used to approach.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. You want to say the

8 trenches that one can see in the right part of the photograph?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And it seems to me that this

11 photograph was taken from an elevated position?

12 A. Yes, but on this side of the elevation they also had their

13 positions, that is at a distance of about between 50 and 100 metres.

14 That is the distance between our positions and their positions. Not at

15 the sharpstone feature itself, this is to the right.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, in order to understand you

17 correctly, you are saying that this photo was taken from positions which

18 were under the control of the enemy side, that is to say the BH side?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If you can remember this --

21 Madam Registrar, the map, please.

22 You traced the line of vision on the map, the line of vision from

23 your positions; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you also marked a line which

Page 16193

1 goes beyond, which is to your left, and that was the first line of the

2 enemy party. So it was to your left from the position that you are

3 looking at the map. If I have understood you correctly, you were not in

4 a position to see these trenches, this was not possible; isn't that

5 correct?

6 A. I don't understand the question.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Your line of vision, if I

8 have understood you correctly, and if I have understood the traces

9 correctly, you couldn't go further to the left of the line that you have

10 traced from the red circle at the bottom and right up to the barracks.

11 A. But this part between the sharpstone feature and the small

12 fortress, the layout of the terrain is such that there is a canyon there

13 and it is covered by forest. You see the elevation point 906 here.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but it was possible for you

15 to see them then, to see those trenches there.

16 A. These ones here, yes, between the small fortress and --

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, to the right of the line,

18 at least the trenches.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I have got a few questions. Could the witness be

21 shown the photograph P3756. Yes.

22 Are you able to indicate on this photograph with the pointer

23 where the trenches are you just described in the other photograph that

24 looks down? Do you remember that you told us the "S" line more or less

25 was trenches of the opposite forces. Could you indicate on the photograph

Page 16194

1 in front of you where these trenches exactly are.

2 A. Here. You can still here the communicating here, where the

3 trenches were, where they were. So just here. On the very edge above

4 the area, and then it went down here, this way, through the canyon up to

5 here, right here. So the communicating trench went down below the stone,

6 the rock. So in this little part here of the wood, both their trenches

7 and our trenches were there, here.


9 A. Except that on the map it is very small and in real life there is

10 200 metres difference -- distance.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could then the photograph P3760 be shown to the

12 witness.

13 MR. STAMP: While that is being done, may I just inquire of the

14 court if there would be no objection to him marking that line that he

15 just showed on the photograph.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That is the document that is already in evidence and

17 we cannot mark on exhibits that are already in evidence. We would change

18 them.

19 MR. STAMP: Very well.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But before I show you the other photograph,

21 you told us a lot about what was on the ridge, your trenches being behind

22 the ridge. Were there any trees that would give any cover to you on that

23 ridge? I mean, just on the edge.

24 A. Yes, there were, but when the attacks took place from their side,

25 those trees as it could be seen on the photographs, those trees had dried

Page 16195

1 up.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So they were not there any more. On from what

3 moment?

4 A. The beginning, there were many of them and later on, fewer and

5 fewer. Because they were drying up from the bullets that they were being

6 hit by and from other weapons.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you now please look at photograph P3760.

8 Could you again indicate where you saw the trenches of the other part on

9 that photograph.

10 A. These trenches here below the sharpstone rock. That's the first

11 line here. And in the wood itself in this valley between small and large

12 fort, that could be seen with the naked eye because there was 100 metres

13 distance between them and us. On this left-hand side, this other part

14 of the photograph --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask you about that trench. You just

16 indicated the "S" line more or less brownish approximately in the middle

17 of the right-hand side of the wooded area.

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you see soldiers of the opposite parties in

20 those trenches.

21 A. We couldn't not in this communicating trench because we didn't

22 see this section, just further up where the trenches were because they

23 are further up some 100 metres further up.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I now take you back to the down in the valley

25 you were asked about a cylindrical object. Can you find that. Down on

Page 16196

1 the --

2 A. Yes, here.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And then a bit more to the right where there is a

4 house, there you said were there trenches in that dark area near that

5 house; is that correct?

6 A. They could not be seen but the communicating trench could be even

7 seen now, that it existed, but this part here, to the left, the second

8 part of the photograph, you could see the communicating trenches very

9 clearly from our observation post between the houses. But this part here,

10 we couldn't see, this part here we couldn't see.

11 JUDGE ORIE: How would you know that these trenches weren't

12 there?

13 A. Well, we had the counter-intelligence information. Because part

14 of the Serbs who left the city then they would transmit this information,

15 those people who stayed down there in the beginning of the conflict.

16 JUDGE ORIE: What did they tell you? Did they tell it to you or

17 did they tell it to anyone else?

18 A. No. That was -- they would transmit this to the command.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and what did your commander tell you then about

20 these trenches?

21 A. Well, he would tell us where it was approximately because we knew

22 the terrain. He would tell us where they were.

23 JUDGE ORIE: How did he describe that to you?

24 A. Well, important -- referring to important facilities that were in

25 the vicinity.

Page 16197

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How would he describe where these facilities

2 were, especially those trenches you just indicated?

3 A. These communicating trenches from the house, since we knew about

4 this area here, we would know some of the inhabitants from these houses.

5 So we would have reference points among these houses, for instance,

6 around here, this house here or the owner of the house, I knew what their

7 name was. So that's how I would know. So what would be said was in the

8 direction of such-and-such.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That white house, who owned that house that you just

10 pointed at? That house you just indicated, yes? No, no, the --

11 A. This. Not this one. This one wasn't there.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give me the names of those who owned

13 these houses?

14 A. We called it Kodismanovici [phoen] Probably that who the owners

15 were Osman -- Osman or Osmanovi -- Osman.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You knew the owners?

17 A. Personally, no. Personally I didn't.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I have another question about tanks. You said

19 something about tanks or a tank. I don't know. You told us that you saw

20 the tank or tanks at two positions, at the Ciglana tunnel. Do you

21 remember when you saw the tank there, one time, several times?

22 A. Well, I saw it on several occasions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: From where did you see it? Where were you when you

24 saw it? Always at the same spot or different spots?

25 A. Not that part with the area in Ciglana could be seen from another

Page 16198

1 part west from the small fort. That part at Ciglana can be seen from

2 that area.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You are west from that fortress? Was there an

4 observation post as well as that point or?

5 A. No, there was a trench there, below the fort to the right-hand

6 side, our trench in the wood. But from there you could see all the way

7 west or north-western part.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These were my questions. This then concludes

9 your testimony in this court, Mr. DP53. I would like to thank you very

10 much for coming to The Hague. We all know that it is a very long

11 distance for you and I would like to thank you for answering all the

12 questions of both parties and of the Bench. And I wish you have a safe

13 trip home again.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you then escort the witness out of

16 the courtroom.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn, but not after I have thanked

19 thoroughly the interpreters and the technical booth. I must say I feel a

20 bit guilty where we stopped early yesterday. It seems that if the

21 Chamber is taking revenge, I hope that you accept that that was not our

22 intention.

23 We will adjourn until next Monday at 9.00 in the morning, same

24 courtroom.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

Page 16199

1 7.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

2 the 25th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.