Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16288

1 Tuesday, 26 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we continue, Ms. Pilipovic, your next witness, as we

11 understand, is a witness for whom protective measures have been requested,

12 although on the last list attached to the letter of the 22nd of November,

13 it does not appear that protective measures have been sought. But if

14 I'm -- at the same time, I see that this witness appears as number 4 in

15 the observations of the Defence in respect of the decision of the Chamber

16 of the 19th November. Is that correct? Do we find --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's a

18 submission in French dated the 12th of November, 1992.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Of the 20th of November.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A small puzzle every morning keeps us awake.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I said the 20th of

23 November. I see that by mistake says the 12th. I don't know why.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, since the Prosecution has had no

25 opportunity yet to express tself on the additional reasons given in the

Page 16289

1 submission of the 20th of November, is there any observations you'd like

2 to make in respect of the protective measures sought?

3 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the protective measures will be granted.

5 And perhaps I repeat that one of the reasons why the Chamber grants these

6 measures also because they are limited in their effect. That means that

7 the testimony as such as a whole is audible; it's just facial distortion

8 and pseudonym. When I say "just," it's not to indicate that it is not an

9 important measure, but there are other measures that are affecting the

10 publicity of the trial to a far greater extent.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, is the --

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


14 MR. IERACE: Might I raise a few matters very quickly.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

16 MR. IERACE: We have received over the past week or so a number of

17 expert reports from the Defence. Some of that material is in the Russian

18 language and in B/C/S which presents a difficulty to us. The Prosecution

19 takes the view that the material should be filed in a language of the

20 Tribunal and therefore requests that the Defence be required to provide

21 that part or those parts of the reports which are in Russian or B/C/S in

22 either English or French, preferably English. That's the first issue.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you a question first. Are you talking

24 about the reports itself or about the supporting material?

25 MR. IERACE: Annexes.

Page 16290

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.

2 MR. IERACE: The second issue concerns the order of the Court that

3 the Defence provide to the Prosecution the dates of birth and addresses

4 and paternal family names of the witnesses to be called. We raised with

5 the Defence last week that we are running out of such information, and

6 they directed us to a letter they had sent some weeks ago. We'll check

7 that, and the situation at the moment is that we only have dates of birth

8 for the witnesses to be called this week, and I think one next week.

9 Mr. President, that does impact significantly on our ability to carry out

10 our inquiries before witnesses are called. I therefore respectfully

11 request that the Defence be obliged to comply with that earlier order in

12 relation to all of the remaining witnesses within a matter of days.

13 Mr. President, the third issue concerns the sittings in January.

14 I would be grateful if the Defence could provide us with the pertinent

15 information for the witnesses to be called in the first week well before

16 the standard seven days which, of course, would fall over the holiday

17 period. It would be helpful to us if we could have that material in

18 December, preferably early December, so that we can complete our inquiries

19 in time for that week and make arrangements for that first sitting week.

20 Mr. President, the next issue concerns the witness that was called

21 last Friday, that's DP53. Mr. President, you may recall that at the end,

22 towards the end of his evidence, he revealed that the date on which he was

23 wounded was the date of one of the scheduled sniping incidents. That had

24 not been brought out in chief, only that he had been wounded with no

25 reference to the date. As it transpires, that's a matter of some

Page 16291

1 significance. The witness has gone. It would be helpful to the

2 Prosecution to have sufficient information in relation to the treatment

3 that the witness received for his wound so that the Prosecution can make

4 its own inquiries with a view to confirming the date on which he was

5 wounded.

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Redaction be made. And could we turn into closed

13 session -- private session.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16292













13 Page 16292 redacted private session













Page 16293












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 16294

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again. Then the next issue

16 was whether the Defence could provide the Prosecution with any details in

17 respect of the medical treatment of Witness DP53. I take it that this

18 might need some further inquiries so that you'll first inform the

19 Prosecution what would be possible or not. And if this would not give a

20 positive result, then the Chamber will certainly hear of it, I take it.

21 Then the third issue -- the third issue was sittings in January,

22 witnesses to be called, whether you could provide the Prosecution timely

23 with a list. Yes?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I then take it that you say that you could

Page 16295

1 meet this request of the Prosecution. Yes?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I think

3 that it could be the 11th or 12th of December, as I have been informed we

4 won't be working on those days.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, 11th, I think I indicated that the parties

6 should keep themselves ready. I'm not saying that we are sitting, but

7 should keep themselves ready to sit. You'll hear about that soon.

8 There's another issue. When we are talking about sitting in the

9 month of January, the Chamber has considered that it might be very, very

10 inconvenient, especially for witnesses, to come on the 6th and the 7th of

11 January. The 7th -- 6th of January being the first day after the recess,

12 and the 7th of January being Orthodox Christmas. So therefore, the

13 Chamber is very much inclined and has given it some consideration not to

14 sit on the 6th and the 7th of January for these reasons. And this would

15 be finalised in one or two days, so you'll hear about it soon. But we --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. But I'd

17 be grateful if you could consider the question of whether we'll be working

18 on the 8th or whether it's on the 7th. That's when the witnesses should

19 be coming. The Orthodox Christmas is on the 7th. Could you consider this

20 question. Then the first working day would be the 9th, and that means

21 they would be able to travel on the 8th.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's three days, and as you -- the mere fact that

23 we come up with the issue on the 6th and the -- about the 6th and the 7th

24 by ourselves, that means that the Chamber is taking this quite seriously

25 and wants to take into consideration the problems that might arise from

Page 16296

1 sitting on the 6th and the 7th. Would it not be possible to call perhaps

2 witnesses that would not come from the Former Yugoslavia on the 8th so

3 that we could continue. Because I do understand the problems you might

4 have, but there might be -- I saw that on your list, although at that time

5 it was not quite clear to us whether you approached these witnesses

6 already, but there were witnesses also that do not come from the Former

7 Yugoslavia and might not be bound by the --

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So three days would be perhaps a bit too much.

10 Then --

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Defence counsel

12 will be informed after the 15th of December about the possibility of other

13 witnesses coming who won't be coming from the territory of the Former

14 Yugoslavia. So we can solve this problem in the way that you have

15 suggested. So the 8th would then be a working day. The 8th of January

16 would then be the first working day if I have understood this correctly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's what we had in mind until now, but I will

18 inform you finally on the 6th and 7th of January soon. Then the dates of

19 birth of witnesses, I take it Ms. Pilipovic that the Prosecution will be

20 informed about the dates of birth on very short notice. They are running

21 out of --

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm looking at the

23 submission of the 12th November, 2002, which I provided to my learned

24 colleagues. And I would like to have a short meeting so that we can see

25 which witnesses are concerned, the witnesses whose dates of birth and

Page 16297

1 place of residence have not been provided.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it this could be solved on very short--

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we did a close analysis of that list,

4 although at first glance it contains a lot of information, some 21

5 witnesses and so on, in fact all it has in addition to what we previously

6 had are three dates of birth and that's it. No fresh addresses, no

7 fresh -- oh, and some new addresses. So Mr. President, we do at this

8 stage seek a direction that the Defence provide that material by a

9 particular date.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would first like to see whether both parties

11 could agree on what's missing and whether there is a problem. If there's

12 a problem, I take it that if dates of birth and addresses have been

13 provided, of course there's no problem. You can check that, I would say,

14 together. And if they are not provided, they should be provided so that

15 the --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is what

17 I'm suggesting. Your Honours, I accept your proposal, bearing in mind the

18 fact that the last submission dated the 12th of November contains a lot of

19 information. But I'm willing to discuss the matter with my colleagues and

20 to try to solve this problem.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you can reach no agreement in order to make

22 it possible for the Chamber to give further guidance to the parties, I

23 would then like to receive a copy indicating what is missing so that we

24 know what is just a small number of data or whether it's really

25 substantial.

Page 16298

1 Then the final issue, the material in English, the annexes to the

2 expert reports. Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Defence counsel

4 has provided the expert report in the official language of the Tribunal,

5 in English. And I accept that certain documents which were attached to

6 the expert report, original documents, and there are certain documents

7 which are in the Russian language. If my learned colleagues insist on

8 having certain texts and articles translated into one of the official

9 languages of the Tribunal, I can solve this problem, too. My colleague

10 and I will sit down, and we will solve this problem.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is my recollection right, Mr. Ierace, that some

12 of the annexes to the Prosecution expert reports were not in English

13 and/or French, but were not attached to the reports?

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, some of the annexes were in B/C/S

15 which is, of course, the language of the accused and a language spoken and

16 read by counsel for the Defence.


18 MR. IERACE: The only other material in a different language was

19 the original of the report --

20 JUDGE ORIE: The Hungarian report.

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, exactly.


23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst I'm on my feet, can I just pick

24 up on one other issue. Madam Pilipovic proposes that we be informed of

25 the identity of the witnesses for the first week after we finish sitting

Page 16299












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 16300

1 in December. I'd be grateful if the date by which we are to be informed

2 could be at least 24 hours before we finish sitting in case there are any

3 issues to be raised. I would be grateful if the witnesses to be called in

4 those few days were not major witnesses. I note that DP51 is to be

5 recalled. He said that he would be available in that week, that's for his

6 cross-examination to be completed. I will not be here that week, and

7 whilst I have a very capable team, I'd be grateful if we did not have a

8 major witness in that week, in those few days.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the Chamber is not very much aware of what

10 are major witnesses and what are not, but perhaps if you sit together and

11 if Ms. Pilipovic would make a proposal on what witnesses to call that

12 week, you'll have a better idea on whether you will consider them major

13 witnesses or not and see whether you can agree.

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If not, then of course we could see whether the

16 Chamber could assist you in reaching an agreement. But I then,

17 Ms. Pilipovic, hear that you are willing to cooperate, provide the

18 material, as good as possible in one of the official languages of the

19 Tribunal. If there are any other questions in relation to these witness

20 reports -- of the expert reports, the Chamber, of course, started looking

21 at them as well. Perhaps you should deal with that before the recess

22 starts.

23 Is there any other issue? Yes, please.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honours, I just want to

25 inform my learned colleague that the Witness DP51 whose cross-examination

Page 16301

1 has to be finished by my colleague will be scheduled for next week. Last

2 night I sent the schedule for next week since we are working on Tuesday

3 and Wednesday and Friday.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's new information for you, Mr. Ierace.

5 If there's nothing else, I would first like to ask whether the

6 protective measures are in effect, that means face distortion. What would

7 be the pseudonym, Ms. Pilipovic? I just look at my list, and would think

8 it would be DP50. Is that correct? DP50.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you please escort the witness into

11 the courtroom.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Can you -- from your answer, I take it that you can

16 hear me in a language you understand.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this Court, the Rules of

19 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration.

20 Mr. DP50, because that's how we will call you because of the protective

21 measures that have been granted in respect of you, Mr. DP50, may I invite

22 you to make that solemn declaration of which the text will now be handed

23 to you by Madam Usher.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 16302

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. DP50. Please be seated.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

4 Defence. Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP50, good morning.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Before I start asking you questions, I'm going to show you a

12 document. And I'd like you to tell us and confirm whether the information

13 contained on the sheet of paper that you'll be handed is correct.

14 Mr. DP50, did you have a look at the information on that document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is the information correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps it would be a

20 good time to go into private session so that Mr. DP50 can give us more

21 detailed information regarding himself.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16303

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, please, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. DP50, you told us where you were born, where you lived, and

24 where you worked. I'd just like to tell you before we start asking the

25 questions, we will be speaking about the period from September 1992 until

Page 16304

1 August 1994. And during this period of time, were you present at this

2 area where you said that you lived and you worked?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us, did you serve in the Yugoslav People's Army?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What is your military specialty?

7 A. I'm an artillery man.

8 Q. In September 1992, were you militarily engaged?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us where.

11 A. I was in the Zuc hill area as an ordinary private. I was in a

12 trench.

13 Q. When I told you in the beginning, we will be speaking about the

14 period from September 1992 to August 1994, can you tell us whether

15 throughout this period you were engaged in this area? Or did your

16 deployment change in a sense that you were a soldier in the trench?

17 A. I was in the trench until September 1992. In September, I was

18 injured, and I was on sick leave, so to speak, until January 1993. And

19 then since my military specialty was that of an artillery man, I was

20 called by the ministry of defence, I was told to go and get my new

21 schedule, my new deployment schedule. And I was transferred to an

22 artillery unit.

23 Q. Mr. DP50, in January 1993, when you say that you were transferred

24 to an artillery unit, did you stay in this unit until August 1994?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16305












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 16306

1 Q. Since your military specialty was artillery, in January 1993, what

2 was the weapon that you were issued with in your unit?

3 A. I was issued with a cannon, 76-millimetre, M42 Zis.

4 Q. Mr. DP50, I'll just quickly go back to September 1992 for

5 continuity's purposes. You belonged to a certain military unit in 1992.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us, what was the military unit, the formation in that

8 area at that time?

9 A. At that time, there was a Krivoglavci Battalion. I was in the 2nd

10 Company.

11 Q. This Krivoglavci Battalion, within which military formation was it

12 part of?

13 A. It was part of the Vogosca Brigade.

14 Q. You told us you were the 2nd Company.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This 2nd Company, do you know when was it established?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. When did you first join this company?

19 A. That was some time in June or July 1992.

20 Q. Can you tell us how many members did this company have?

21 A. As far as I knew, 40 to 50 people.

22 Q. Can you tell us whether these men were professional soldiers?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you tell us who were these men?

25 A. Most of the time, these were locals, inhabitants of the settlement

Page 16307

1 of Josanica.

2 Q. Let us be precise, when you say settlement of Josanica, is that

3 the area of --

4 A. That is the centre, the close centre of Vogosca.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Mr. DP50, when you told us that your military specialty was

7 artillery and that you were issued with a cannon, M4 -- 76 Zis, this

8 artillery unit that you belonged to, did it have a name?

9 A. It was called a mixed artillery battery.

10 Q. This mixed artillery battery existed as part of which larger

11 formation?

12 A. Of the Mixed Artillery Battalion.

13 Q. And this Mixed Artillery Battalion --

14 A. It was part of the Vogosca Brigade.

15 Q. When you tell us that you were issued with this weapon, can you

16 tell us, what is the purpose of this cannon 76 millimetre? What can you

17 tell us, what did you do with this cannon? How did you work on it?

18 A. I was everything. I was loading it, and I was targeting it. I

19 was a gunner.

20 Q. According to the rules, how many should you have to serve the

21 cannon?

22 A. Six to eight people.

23 Q. Can you tell us, what was the reason why were you both the loader

24 and the targeter?

25 A. There were no people who were specialised in this, not enough

Page 16308

1 people.

2 Q. Sir, can you tell us, was this situation the same throughout the

3 conflict, throughout the duration of the conflict?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let us be precise: When I asked you this question, I meant

6 whether we're speaking about staff?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As part of your artillery unit for which you said was a battery,

9 whether throughout the duration of the conflict this one cannon existed or

10 did the situation change?

11 A. I was in charge of this cannon until mid-1993. There were about

12 two or three soldiers in the meantime in the barracks in Semizovac. And

13 there were four cannons, B1, M48. And they were not working. They were

14 broken, and they were taken to the Hadzici technical maintenance institute

15 where they were fixed and they were brought to my position. And that is

16 how in the second half of 1993, I became the commanding officer of these

17 cannons. So that means that there were four, five, or six cannons. That

18 depended because these cannons were old and practically every ten days or

19 so, one or two cannons had to go and they had to be taken to be fixed

20 because they suffered from various technical problems.

21 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP50, you told us that you were a commanding

22 officer of this battery which had four to five cannons. That is, you said

23 four, five, six cannons. How many men were members of your battery who

24 were crews for these cannons?

25 A. This went from 15 to 18 people.

Page 16309

1 Q. Mr. DP50, considering your deployment at that time, can you tell

2 us, what is the purpose of a cannon, specifically speaking about the

3 cannon that you were issued with, 76 millimetre cannon? But before that I

4 wanted to ask you whether all the cannons in your battery, were they all

5 of this type?

6 A. No. There was one Zis cannon and four B1 cannons.

7 Q. Technically speaking, is there a difference between these two

8 types of cannons?

9 A. Only in their range. The Zis cannon or field gun had 12 to 13

10 kilometres range, while B1 field gun had 7.5 to 8 kilometres.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP50, let us go back to the question that I've

12 asked you about the cannon that you were issued with, 76 millimetres Zis

13 field gun. Can you tell us, what is the purpose of this cannon?

14 A. Destroying and disabling live enemy forces. Also destroying and

15 disabling fortified firing points, that is, bunkers and all those other

16 means from which fire is opened, like tanks, and any anti-tank weapons.

17 Q. When you told us that one of the objectives destroying enemy live

18 forces, can you tell us, you as an artillery man, what did you mean by

19 enemy live forces?

20 A. Any soldier who had weapons on him. Whether he had a uniform or

21 civilian clothes because at the time, there were no uniforms, and people

22 went to the front lines in civilian clothes. So even a civilian who had

23 firearms on him was a soldier.

24 Q. When you tell us what, in your opinion, is enemy live forces, your

25 explanation with regard to the uniform and the weapons that you just gave

Page 16310

1 us, this, in your opinion, applies to the enemy?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us whether this situation also applied for the

4 weapons and the clothing, for instance, for the situation in your unit?

5 A. People wore what they were able to lay their hands on.

6 Q. When you were telling us about enemy personnel, enemy live forces,

7 during the -- enemy manpower, during the period of September 1992 -- or

8 rather, January 1993 until August 1994, when you were in charge of these

9 field guns, were you in a position while you were in charge of these

10 cannons to receive orders to fire on these targets, so to speak?

11 A. Do you mean against --

12 Q. Against enemy manpower.

13 A. Enemy manpower, as I said, a soldier or a civilian who is bearing

14 firearms, they are the targets. While a civilian who has no weapons, then

15 that person is not a target.

16 Q. During the period while you were issued with the field gun, were

17 you in a position to fire at enemy manpower, and what were the situations

18 if you were in such situations?

19 A. Since I was in the area of the defence of the Zuc hill, the

20 soldiers, that is, the Army of BH, was visible. That is, we could see it

21 with the binoculars. When artillery fire was opened, it was only opened

22 on the order of the superior commands, and not in any other situation.

23 Q. When you say "on the order of the superior command," can you tell

24 us in which situations did you receive orders of the superior command?

25 A. In those situations when there would be a more intense attack of

Page 16311












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 16312

1 the BH Army, that is, when the commander of the line felt that the line in

2 the Zuc hill area was at risk. And then through some, how shall I call

3 it, structures, the chain of command, the order, would then come to me.

4 Q. When you told us about the purpose of the field gun that you were

5 issued with, the other purpose, you said, was the destruction of fortified

6 posts or points. Can you tell us, as far as you were concerned, as a

7 person in charge of a 76-millimetre field gun, what were fortified

8 positions? Or can you define for us what are these points, these posts?

9 A. Yes. These were trenches, bunkers from which fire was opened that

10 were covered with logs. And atop of these logs, there was soil. And it

11 was with a naked eye that one could see them. And then during autumn and

12 winter months when there were no more leaves, it was possible to see

13 trenches and communication trenches of the BH Army.

14 Q. You told us that the purpose of the field gun was to destroy the

15 locations from which fire was opened?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you also said anti-tank weapons, anti-armoured weapons?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. While you were in charge of the field gun, did you receive orders

20 to open fire towards locations where fire was opened towards us? Can you

21 please clarify this a little.

22 A. During the firing of the Muslim artillery, so during the firing of

23 the Muslim artillery, it occurred, that is, I was ordered, since because

24 before that, I had reference points, and the commander from the line would

25 guide where the fire was coming from, either from a tank or a Howitzer or

Page 16313

1 any other weapon.

2 Q. Are you telling us that the BH Army in that area where you were,

3 was it equipped with these weapons? It had a tank, it had field guns, it

4 had Howitzers?

5 A. Yes. The tank was located in the area from the elevation point

6 850 until the Orlic elevation point, and in the area of the village of

7 Jezera. The field gun, I don't know which type it was, was also located

8 in the area of the Orlic hill or the Orlic elevation point.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --


11 MR. IERACE: The last question was in leading form. The BH army,

12 it had a tank, had field guns, it had Howitzers. I can't find by search a

13 reference to Howitzers in the evidence of the witness before it was

14 mentioned by Madam Pilipovic. I don't know whether the witness earlier

15 referred to a tank and Howitzers.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't the Howitzer be in the previous answer?

17 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. President. I see it there.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. DP50, I think that in your answer, I didn't hear until the end

20 whether you spoke about Howitzers or Howitzer.

21 A. I said that I knew about a tank. Now, whether it was a field gun

22 or whether it was a Howitzer, I don't know. Because the fire was opened

23 on our positions.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 Mr. DP50, during the period that you were present in that area,

Page 16314

1 did you open fire from your gun in the direction of other fortified

2 points, or fortified firing positions? Were there any other sites towards

3 which fire was opened?

4 A. There was the transport faculty or the boarding school from which

5 fire was opened at the Vogosca/Pale Road.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, so that DP50's

7 testimony is clear to everyone, Defence has prepared a map and suggests

8 that the working map designated as Map C should be shown to the witness so

9 that he can point out the area that he is mentioning, that he has

10 mentioned, the area in which he was present.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Map C, Madam Registrar. That would be -- that's the

12 large one, the 3 by 3 metres, yes.


14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I apologise, C2.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you indicate what area? Do you

16 want the Vogosca area to be displayed, or could you please assist the

17 usher so --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If we manage to get it on the ELMO, that would be

20 fine so that everyone can follow the testimony.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. DP50, can you recognise the map that you have in front of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you use the pointer, which is next to you, to point to the

25 position that you were at. Can it be seen in this map?

Page 16315

1 A. Yes. In the area of the Pticja Glava elevation.

2 Q. Did you see this on the map, and is this elevation marked? Does

3 it have a number?

4 A. Yes. Elevation Pticja Glava, 805.

5 Q. For the transcript, the witness indicated elevation Pticja Glava,

6 which is above the word Brag, above the letter R as far as I can see, to

7 the north.

8 Could you tell us what the altitude is.

9 A. 805. There is a green line that goes along -- goes by the number

10 5.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP50 --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, since the map is 3 by 3 metres, and

13 where this word Brag appears several times, it's just west from Vogosca

14 where we find these words. Please proceed.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Yes, that would be the word Brag which is under the word

17 Krivoglavci.

18 Mr. DP50, you mentioned the positions of your gun, the gun that

19 you were responsible for. Is it possible to see the fortified positions

20 in this map, your fortified positions, the ones that you mentioned a

21 minute ago in your testimony?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you, first of all, point out the road, could you point to

24 the road and the transport faculty. You said that these positions were

25 firing positions for you.

Page 16316

1 A. This is the transport faculty or the boarding school.

2 Q. You've pointed to the transport faculty, and you mentioned the

3 boarding school. Could you tell us which army had that faculty under its

4 control.

5 A. The BH army.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, I take it that the description for

8 the transcript is not sufficient to follow the testimony.

9 MR. IERACE: I wonder whether the scale of the map is really

10 suitable for this degree of detail. I recall there is another map which

11 the Prosecution used of the Ilijas area. I wonder whether that might be

12 more suitable.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Say for Witness AD. Is that what you had in mind?

14 MR. IERACE: Yes. And perhaps if we could assist, perhaps the

15 Prosecution could see if we have some copies and help the Defence in that

16 regard if is convenient to the Defence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: At least, Ms. Pilipovic, it goes rather in detail. I

18 don't know whether we either can zoom in or whether you use this map or

19 not. But if so, then we need a clear description of what the witness

20 pointed at. And I think also the map should be moved such that we can

21 follow the way the witness is pointing to certain areas. So I leave it up

22 to you whether you would prefer to continue with another map or that you

23 would prefer to continue with this one.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think that my

25 colleague is referring to Map 3724, and I have part of that map. It

Page 16317












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 16318

1 wouldn't be a problem to show the witness that map, too. But I would just

2 like to make use of --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please ask the witness to point again

4 at the places he indicated before so that we have a better look at it.

5 And if necessary, that the map be moved and zoomed in such a way that we

6 get a clear view of what he points at. Please proceed.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. DP50, could you just use the pointer to point to the area from

9 which the BH army tank opened fire. Could you please move your hand so

10 that you can point to this with the pointer?

11 JUDGE ORIE: We have to be very careful with this map because it's

12 an expensive one.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. DP50, could you move the map to the right, please, so that we

15 can see the image that is clear. Yes. That's fine.

16 A. [Indicates].

17 Q. Could you just point to the area --

18 A. [Indicates].

19 Q. -- from which the BH army opened fire from attack and used

20 anti-armour weapons.

21 A. As I said, it was from elevation Zuc, 850, up to the Orlic

22 elevation, 876.

23 Q. You mentioned fortified bunkers. Can you indicate the area --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the transcript, the witness points

25 a little bit to the left and above where it reads "1K" on what is I take

Page 16319

1 it by now known to the parties as Zuc hill just north of the western

2 extension of the city of Sarajevo.

3 Please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. DP50, you mentioned trenches and bunkers, and you said that

6 these were fortified positions.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you use the pointer to point to the trenches and the fortified

9 bunkers, the areas where there were trenches and fortified bunkers.

10 A. [Indicates].

11 Q. Can you tell us what the area was called, if you know the name.

12 A. Those bunkers were to the left at the place called Kute, or

13 perhaps 200 or 300 metres from the place called Kute. It was called

14 Jezevi. There was a crossroads there. And to the right, towards the Vis

15 elevation, which is above the number 2 here. And something has been

16 marked with a blue felt tip here so you can't see it very well. From here

17 up to Jezevi, as far as Jezevi, there were trenches, communicating

18 trenches, and bunkers.

19 Q. How long was that line?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] But for the sake of the

21 transcript, I'd like to state that the witness pointed to the area marked

22 in blue. And from number 1, where it says the 1st Motorised Brigade, and

23 number 2, the 2nd Motorised Brigade, he said that this was the area of

24 Jezevi.

25 Q. And you said the Vis area.

Page 16320

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you said that this was an area in which the BH army had

3 bunkers and trenches.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: For the transcript, the witness was pointing at the

6 blue dotted line on the northwestern flank of what we just described as

7 being Zuc hill.

8 Please proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. DP50, you have shown us this area, too, the area in which

11 there were bunkers and trenches. You pointed to the transport faculty on

12 the map and said that this was a firing position, and you also pointed to

13 a tank. Were there any other places, fortified positions, in your

14 opinion, that you could identify on this map and where you fired from

15 positions that you had taken?

16 A. In the depth of the Zuc elevation, 850, there were other positions

17 because the army that was on the line. When there was action by the BH

18 Army, you could hear explosions. You could hear shots being fired. I

19 assume this was from mortars. I don't know of what calibre.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the sake of the

21 transcript, the witness has pointed to the area where explosions could be

22 heard, according to what the witness said, the sound of explosions which

23 resulted from shots being fired from mortars, that's northwest, in a

24 northwestern part of the map between number 2, I think it's number 2 --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 16321

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Which is in the Zuc area. That's

2 what I understood.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: For the transcript, is where a little flag appears

5 with a number 2 in it close to the northwestern flank. And could you ask

6 the witness again to point at the transport faculty because I might have

7 missed that.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you see this black rectangle?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. DP50, could you tell us what road that is? Was the

12 direction -- that is a little closer, point us a little closer which would

13 enable us to locate the transport faculty?

14 A. Well, about 200 and 250 metres from the Unis factory.

15 Q. And where is the Unis factory located? Can you identify it on the

16 map?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first describe for the transcript where is

18 the rectangle that the witness pointed at. That is on this map close to

19 Vogosca village in the middle between the two red dots being part of the

20 red dotted line, the two red dots being up highest north of this line

21 close to Vogosca.

22 Please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. DP50, could you explain the following for us, given your

25 professional qualifications: Do you know what this sign means, Brag?

Page 16322

1 A. Brigade artillery group.

2 Q. Can you tell us what a Brag, brigade artillery group, consisted

3 of?

4 A. I don't know exactly.

5 Q. Can you tell us whether that was a location? Can you tell us

6 whether that was the location of the brigade artillery group? Is that

7 where the artillery was located?

8 A. Where I was situated?

9 Q. Yes. Can you tell us whether throughout the period of the

10 conflict up to August 1994, did the brigade artillery have its positions

11 in this area?

12 A. Yes, it did.

13 Q. Do you personally know whether in the course of 1994 an agreement

14 was signed on the withdrawal of the artillery?

15 A. Yes, I'm aware of such an agreement being signed.

16 Q. During that period, after the agreement on the withdrawal of the

17 artillery had been signed, did you receive similar orders on withdrawing

18 the artillery?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know whether there were any discussions with UNPROFOR

21 members with regard to your artillery withdrawing?

22 A. As far as I could tell, they had allowed us to remain there

23 because we were under their control. Their side controlled us.

24 Q. When you say "controlled," can you tell us whether UNPROFOR was

25 present there, too?

Page 16323












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 16324

1 A. Yes, from the very first day.

2 Q. Do you personally know how the routes for the withdrawal of the

3 artillery were determined? Was there a proposal? Was there a suggestion

4 as to how this should be done?

5 A. I don't understand the question very well.

6 Q. We mentioned the agreement on the withdrawal of the artillery.

7 Are you aware of the contents of that agreement as far as giving

8 directions for withdrawal are concerned?

9 A. Well, the artillery was to withdraw 20 kilometres from the town.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I in between ask for a

11 clarification of one answer. Ms. Pilipovic has asked you whether the

12 UNPROFOR was present there, and your answer was: "Yes, from the very

13 first day." The very first day of what? Of the conflict? Of the

14 existence of the agreement? On the first day since you were there? What

15 did you mean to say?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the agreement was signed on

17 withdrawal of the artillery, artillery that had a calibre that exceeded

18 12.7 millimetres, that when they were present.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Thank you for your

20 clarification.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. DP50, we mentioned the UNPROFOR presence. Do you know whether

23 before this agreement was signed, do you know whether UNPROFOR came to

24 this area?

25 A. No, I don't know.

Page 16325

1 Q. Sir, you are telling us that you personally never contacted

2 members of UNPROFOR?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Mr. DP50, in order to finish using this map before we have a

5 break, I would like to ask you another question. Were there any other

6 firing positions or fortified positions, as you call them, which you could

7 identify on this map? Were there positions that you fired at?

8 A. The commanders of the lines, who changed on a daily basis, they

9 were in the best position to see from which parts of Zuc our positions

10 were under the greatest threat so that at their request and with the

11 approval of the relevant command, the superior command, we would disable

12 those targets, those positions.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it would be a

15 good time to have a break now. And after the break, I will ask the

16 witness to use the other map to designate -- to mark the positions, if

17 necessary.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever we are using the big map, because we should

19 use a copy because this original document is, when it's manipulated too

20 much on the ELMO and folded again and again, it might be damaged. So I

21 suggest to the parties that when we are using this map, that we use one of

22 the colour copies, and if necessary, I think there are two or three

23 copies.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'll bring the

25 Defence's copy, if my colleague agrees.

Page 16326

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the transcript, Mr. Ierace is nodding which

2 I understand to be yes.

3 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, if you would escort the witness into the

7 courtroom, I'll take the opportunity to ask one question about the map we

8 just used. I remember someone saying that a CD-ROM copy might be made

9 available as well. And I'm wondering whether it does exist.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you're correct. We did have it placed

11 on to a CD. There's a problem with the software, so we've had it

12 returned to be corrected. Just on the issue of maps, this may not be the

13 time, but perhaps at some later stage today, I could give you some further

14 information in response to some concerns that have been expressed about

15 the maps. I've made some inquiries.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I gave it some thought as well. But let's first

17 continue.

18 Mr. DP50, Ms. Pilipovic will continue to examine you.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Your Honour, before I continue with the examination-in-chief, I'd

21 like to show the witness a section of a map that we spoke about before the

22 break. Perhaps the witness could mark for us on this map, and I have a

23 sufficient number of copies if the Chamber and the colleagues from the

24 Prosecution wish to have the map.

25 Q. Mr. DP50, do you recognise the area that you were showing on the

Page 16327

1 other map we looked at before the break? Do you recognise the area on

2 this map?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. First of all, could you mark for us the positions of your field

5 gun, and also later on the positions of the battery. First of all, I'd

6 like to ask you, what was the length of the area that was covered by your

7 battery which you said was established some time in the second half of

8 1993.

9 A. The distance from Pticja Glava elevation point up to the first

10 line of the BH army, was from about three, three and a half kilometres,

11 sometimes even it was a greater distance. I can't quite remember.

12 Q. And what was the length of the line, of the surface that was

13 covered?

14 A. One to one and a half kilometres.

15 Q. On this map, in this area that you were stationed at, could you

16 please mark with a black pen this area. Could you draw a line, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Inside the circle, could you please put number 1.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness

21 circled the elevation 805, Pticja Glava, on the map.

22 Q. Mr. DP50, in this area that you marked with a circle, is that

23 where the battery was?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. DP, on this map, would you be able to mark the location of the

Page 16328

1 transport faculty as the firing position, the firing point for you, and

2 the road that was also a firing point for you?

3 A. This black dot in the middle.

4 Q. Can you put number 2 there.

5 A. [Marks]

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness marked

7 with a number 2 the location of the transport faculty. It is located

8 northwest from the location Balino Brdo, 608, if that is necessary.

9 Q. Mr. DP50, on this map, if it is possible, can you mark the area

10 that you told us was the area of trenches and bunkers of the BH Army?

11 A. Shall I draw with the pen?

12 Q. Yes, you can draw a line, a line that you said was the area of

13 trenches and bunkers. This area that you've just marked, is that also the

14 area of Jezevi and Vis area?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. You can just draw a line.

17 A. This line here.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the ELMO please zoom in a bit more so that we

19 have a better view on the line. Perhaps move the map a bit to the left.

20 If it could be zoomed in even more, that would be... Yes. Thank you.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. DP50, could you please mark number 3 there.

23 A. [Marks]

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, number 3 is the

25 line of bunkers and trenches of the BH Army which ran from the area where

Page 16329












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 16330

1 there is a word Kata [sic], in the direction --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kute, Kute.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise. Kute.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the marking is done to avoid the

5 necessity of making clear descriptions. So I think if everyone marks with

6 3, there's no specific need to repeat what is actually there and where it

7 is. Please proceed.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. DP50, can you mark for us the location or the position where

10 the tank was.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Could you please put number 4 there.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. On this map, would you be able to mark the positions of field guns

15 or Howitzers, as you said?

16 A. Also in the area of number 4.

17 Q. When you were speaking about detonations, and in your opinion, the

18 positions where mortars fired from, can you tell us what area was that?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Could you please, below the line that you drew under the word

21 Jezera, could you just put number 5.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. So this is the area that you mark as being that where the mortars

24 were active from. And where you drew a line under Zuc, could you put

25 number 6.

Page 16331

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. That is also the area that you marked from where mortars fired. Is

3 that how I should understand it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. DP50, when you were telling us about the distance between the

6 lines of the BH Army in relation to the positions of your battery, which

7 line did you mean? Did you mean line number 3? When you were speaking

8 about the distance of about 3 kilometres.

9 A. Yes, from the firing position up to the BH Army line. I can't

10 tell you precisely. Three, three and a half kilometres. It all varied

11 according to the layout of the terrain.

12 Q. Mr. DP50, on this map, would you be able to mark the first lines

13 of defence of the VRS, of the army of Republika Srpska?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. With a dotted line. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, so that we have a

16 difference.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. You can put number 7 there.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. So with a number 7, with a dotted line, you marked the lines of

21 the Army of Republika Srpska. Mr. DP50, when you've told us that when you

22 received the information, you used your field gun accordingly, was this

23 from this line that you received the information about how you should use

24 your weapons?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16332

1 Q. Can you tell us in which way were you informed, were you told?

2 A. Via telephone, and also by the superior command.

3 Q. Who was the superior command as far as you were concerned?

4 A. The commander of the Mixed Artillery Battalion.

5 Q. Do you have any personal information or knowledge where the

6 command was located?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When you received orders to fire, can you tell us in which way did

9 you, as a gunner of the field gun, how did you fire?

10 A. When I was a gunner, most of the time the direct firing was used.

11 That is, the target is visible.

12 Q. Thank you. In your opinion, was there another way of firing? You

13 said this was a direct firing.

14 A. Yes. There was indirect firing. In the event when you wouldn't

15 see a target, that is, when I was the commanding officer of that unit,

16 that is, of the battery, in the cases when, according to this map, when

17 targets were fired four, five, six.

18 Q. Can you clarify this for us, when you say "targets four, five,

19 six," what did you mean by that? When we are talking about indirect

20 firing?

21 A. Well, when you said in which sector was the tank, you asked me

22 that question. So this line that was drawn, behind it is number 4, this

23 is where the tank was. And earlier, I said that there was also either a

24 field gun or a Howitzer that fired on our line. And the numbers marked 5

25 and 6, these are the locations from where, according to the information

Page 16333

1 received from the commander from the line, mortars were active.

2 Q. Mr. DP50, if I've understood you correctly, you told us that

3 numbers marked on this map, 4, 5, and 6, were targets for you that you

4 couldn't see.

5 A. Five and six could not be seen, while target number 4 could be

6 seen, was visible, when they were firing, when that target was active,

7 that, I mean, target number 4. Because from the position, it was possible

8 to see the slopes of Zuc hill that were steep. And so it was possible to

9 see that from the firing position. You could see the tank firing or a

10 field gun or a Howitzer firing.

11 Q. Mr. DP50, are you telling us that as far as post 4 is concerned or

12 position 4, there were situations where you were able to see the target?

13 And what kind of targeting or firing did you use then when you could see

14 number 4?

15 A. It was both direct and indirect.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP50, when you're telling us about the way of

17 targeting or firing from a field gun, you said that it was done in an

18 indirect and direct way. You as a person who was a gunner on the field

19 gun did you know about the margin of error and the possibility of error?

20 A. Yes, of course.

21 Q. Can you tell us in which situations were errors possible?

22 A. First of all, human factor. Weather conditions, which means that

23 the air temperature, if it is too low, if it is too high, if there is

24 wind, if there is rain, all weather conditions can influence the bullet

25 trajectory. All of them were relevant for the possibilities of error.

Page 16334

1 Q. Mr. DP50, you said both human factor and weather conditions.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I think you didn't tell us what was the reason or what -- can you

4 explain about the human factor. You didn't elaborate on that.

5 A. Speed, and the targets were not properly calibrated. How should I

6 explain this? And the actual calculator sometimes - how should I explain

7 this - could make an error in numbers. There could be calculating errors.

8 Q. When you mentioned speed, what did you mean by that?

9 A. Well, I wanted to say was that when there was order to fire on

10 these targets, as soon as possible, as rapidly as possible, because that

11 line that we were firing on was so much at risk that the BH Army could

12 have entered Vogosca.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction: The line that we were

14 firing from was so much at risk that the BH army could have entered

15 Vogosca.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. DP50, when firing from a field gun, what is the maximum

18 distance, for instance, in indirect firing?

19 A. For field gun B1, maximum range or maximum distance was, as I

20 said, 7.5 to 8 kilometres. But we fired possibly up to 5, 5.5 kilometres.

21 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you did not fire over 5

22 kilometres?

23 A. No. I'm sorry. Could you please repeat the question.

24 Q. In indirect firing, what was the maximum range?

25 A. 5 to 5.5 kilometres.

Page 16335

1 Q. Are you telling us this about possible distance, possible range,

2 or could you perhaps just elaborate so that I don't lead.

3 A. We fired up to 5 kilometres. We didn't fire any further than that

4 because there was no need to do that.

5 Q. Mr. DP50, when you told us about the possibilities of direct and

6 indirect targeting, you, as you, gunner, and later on as the commanding

7 officer of the battery, can you tell us, what is the way of targeting that

8 you used for the most part?

9 A. When I was on the Zis field gun, most of the time we used direct

10 targeting because I saw the targets. But when I came into charge of the

11 B1 battery field guns, there was a person calculating in the unit for the

12 targets in respect of indirect firing, and even for targets for which

13 direct firing could be used.

14 Q. So you told us that when you were by yourself, most of the time

15 you were using direct targeting. So how did you do that? You saw those

16 targets. Did you use anything, any utensil for that, did you see with the

17 naked eye?

18 A. I was using binoculars.

19 Q. When you say that you were using binoculars, did you receive the

20 binoculars? Was it issued to you in the unit, or...?

21 A. No, I received it from a friend who was a hunter.

22 Q. When you spoke about the men who were in your battery, can you

23 tell us whether these men were in some way trained to handle the field

24 guns?

25 A. 90 per cent of the manpower in the unit were trained. As far as

Page 16336

1 the gunners were concerned, those who were working the field guns, that

2 was 100 per cent of them were trained.

3 Q. When you're telling us about 90 per cent manpower trained, you're

4 speaking about your battery?

5 A. No, I'm speaking about the entire manpower.

6 Q. Of your battery?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Mr. DP50, can you tell us, in the field, the area that is to be

10 covered, that area that you covered, how wide was it? You marked it on

11 the map, but can you tell us how big was it? Can you tell us the length

12 of that area, the width of that area?

13 A. Well, the area we covered was about one to one and a half

14 kilometres, plus width of Zis field gun. I could also reach the -- or had

15 within my range the transport faculty.

16 Q. When you said that in your battery, 90 per cent of the manpower

17 were trained, what was necessary for someone to be able to handle a field

18 gun? What qualifications were necessary?

19 A. First of all, the men who joined the unit, they came with

20 artillery military specialty. So they had the basic knowledge about what

21 is to be done with a field gun. So the gunner was trained. He knew how

22 to handle all the elements. The crew knew how to load the field gun.

23 They knew where they should shelter, how to behave when being part of a

24 crew of a field gun. And therefore, they also could be safe while working

25 with the field gun.

Page 16337

1 Q. Mr. DP50, while you were at your positions, while you were

2 responsible for this field gun, as you say, what sort of view did you

3 have? Did you have a view in the direction of the town? When I say "in

4 the direction of the town," I'm referring to the open part of the town of

5 Sarajevo.

6 A. No. No. Because it wasn't possible to see Sarajevo from the

7 Zuc hill, not at all.

8 Q. Mr. DP50, did you yourself ever receive orders --

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the last answer given by the witness

11 reads: "Because it wasn't possible to see Sarajevo from the Zuc hill, not

12 at all." That seems not well understandable, in view of the testimony of

13 the witness.

14 Could you please repeat your answer whether you could see the city

15 of Sarajevo. You gave a reason why you couldn't see, as far as I

16 understand. Could you repeat that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my firing position, I

18 personally couldn't see the town of Sarajevo. As far as I know, the town

19 of Sarajevo is composed of ten municipalities.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Why couldn't you see the...?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it was at a distance from

22 where I was, and the Zuc hill was in front of me. So I had no need for

23 the town.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So it's distance and view obstructed by Zuc hill.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as you say, there was the Zuc

Page 16338

1 hill, which was an obstacle, and it wasn't necessary for me to fire at the

2 town.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asking about the view you had, not whether

4 you fired. What could you see from the city of Sarajevo? Nothing at all?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Not Dobrinja?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. DP50, did you ever receive orders to fire at certain targets?

11 You mentioned what the target were for you, apart from the targets that

12 you've mentioned. Were you ordered to fire at certain other targets?

13 A. Well, there were the targets that I have mentioned, the commander

14 of the line who was at the line and who knew where fire, infantry fire,

15 was being opened from or artillery fire. So as far as those targets are

16 concerned, we didn't fire. We didn't fire randomly at those targets.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

18 questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. If I could just have a moment to

22 collect my documents.


24 Mr. DP50, you'll now be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

Page 16339

1 Q. Sir, you told us that the -- your responsibility changed during

2 the period that you were in the company. By August 1994, did you have a

3 rank?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please answer the question, or is

5 there any difficulty in answering the question?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer the question, but for

7 the reasons of safety, I'm not answering it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session, and then no one will

9 hear anything. So it's not only your face that cannot be seen, but even

10 your words cannot be heard by anyone out of this courtroom. We'll turn

11 into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16340













13 Page 16340 redacted private session













Page 16341

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please answer the question. We are

13 now in open session.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zoran Kovacevic.


16 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Srecko Gracanin?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was there a unit of artillery attached to the Vogosca Brigade

19 apart from the battalion you've told us about?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Was Zdravko Djukic the deputy commander of the battalion?

22 A. That's what I heard.

23 Q. Do you know what type of weaponry, that is, artillery weaponry,

24 the brigade had apart from your battery?

25 A. No, I don't, because I was at my firing position all the time. So

Page 16342

1 I didn't know.

2 Q. Well, was there any change of personnel between your battery and

3 other batteries, artillery batteries, within the brigade, the Vogosca

4 Brigade? Did men sometimes move between them?

5 A. There were changes, but not between units, because there were

6 young men. They wanted to be educated, so they enrolled in university,

7 and this is why they would leave the units.

8 Q. You told us that you received your orders on telephone lines.

9 Were they open lines, in other words, were you able to hear communications

10 between others on the same network?

11 A. No. I only had a communication line with my superior, that

12 involved my superior and myself. No one else.

13 Q. You told us that you heard mortars being fired from the other side

14 of the front line which you thought was three to three and a half

15 kilometres away. Did you hear artillery weapons being fired from your side

16 of the line?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not sure that the

19 witness said that he heard shots being fired. I think that when the

20 witness spoke about mortars, I think that his answers were different. As

21 far as I can remember, and I'll try to check this in the transcript, he

22 used a different word.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's check it in the transcript and see.

24 MR. IERACE: Page 28, line 18.

25 JUDGE ORIE: There is an assumption in the answer as well,

Page 16343

1 Mr. Ierace. At least, there's a sufficient basis for the question. But

2 perhaps you refer to the answer of the witness with great precision,

3 Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

5 Q. Sir, do you recollect that you had told us that you could hear

6 explosions from the enemy side of the front line in the region of Zuc?

7 And that you assumed that what you could hear was the sound of mortars

8 being fired. Do you recall saying that, words to that effect?

9 A. I said the commander of the line heard shots being fired, and he

10 reported on this. And in normal conditions, you can hear mortar fire at a

11 distance of 800 metres. So this didn't involve me; the commander of the

12 line heard this, who was in contact with the BH Army, who had contact

13 lines.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP50, may I ask you not to look to the party who

15 is not examining you. Ms. Pilipovic, page 28, your summary of the

16 testimony of the witness is that he heard mortars being fired. Let me

17 just read it.

18 According to what the witness said, the sound of explosion which

19 resulted from shots being fired from mortars, that's the northwestern part

20 of the map between -- you said explosions could be heard. So that's the

21 way you summarised the testimony of the witness. It's my view, not my

22 proper now to object against when Mr. Ierace understood the answer to be

23 the same.

24 Mr. DP50, when you answered that question, you said that you heard

25 it, then it was summarised by Ms. Pilipovic, and then you confirmed that

Page 16344

1 again. So you didn't speak about any commanders at that very moment.

2 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


4 Q. Sir, I'll read part of your answer word for word. "In the depth

5 of the Zuc elevation, 850, there were other positions because the army

6 that was on the line, when there was action by the BH army, you could hear

7 explosions. You could hear shots being fired. I assume this was from

8 mortars. I don't know of what calibre."

9 I suggest to you that you were clearly saying that you heard

10 explosions, you could hear shots being fired, you assumed on the basis of

11 what you heard they were mortars. But on the basis of what you heard, you

12 couldn't work out what calibre those mortars were. What do you say to

13 that?

14 A. Can I explain.

15 Q. Sir, if you could just answer the question. I suggest to you that

16 you told us earlier that indeed you did hear the explosions that you

17 assumed to be mortars being fired. Do you agree or do you disagree?

18 A. An explanation.

19 Q. Do you agree or disagree?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace asked you whether you would agree that

21 your earlier testimony was that you did hear explosions that you assumed

22 to be from mortars being fired. First the question is whether you told

23 this, and then if there's an explanation, that might be the next question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Testimony. Yes,

Page 16345

1 you want to give an --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- Please do so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Firing a shell from a mortar

5 is one thing. And the shell hitting the ground is another matter.

6 Hearing the sound of a mortar shell being fired is more difficult, it's

7 more difficult to hear it. When a shell hits the ground, the sound is a

8 lot louder. That's what I was referring to. And the commander said that

9 shells had been fired from that area.


11 Q. The words of your answer in part were "you could hear shots being

12 fired." You did not say you could hear shots landing. Do you remember

13 saying these words: "You could hear shots being fired"?

14 A. Yes, shells. But from tanks and from guns, field guns.

15 Q. Your next words were: "I assume this was from mortars. I don't

16 know of what calibre."

17 A. Well, there were mortars, but I don't know of what kind because I

18 was informed of this by others.

19 Q. Now, from your battery position, did you hear tanks firing from

20 your side of the line at any stage in that period, from September 1992

21 until August 1994?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Did you hear Howitzers being fired from your side of the line in

24 that period?

25 A. From a distance, but I don't know from which part, from which

Page 16346

1 area.

2 Q. How far away do you think you heard them being fired from, from

3 your side of the line?

4 A. Well, between 5 and 6 kilometres.

5 Q. In which direction from you?

6 A. Behind me. But it wasn't as if they were firing over me. Do you

7 understand?

8 Q. I take it you're not able to tell us from what you heard which

9 direction they were firing in except they weren't firing over you. Is

10 that the position?

11 A. No, no. The shell that was fired didn't go over my firing

12 position, it didn't go in the direction of the town. Do you understand?

13 Q. Yes, I understand. On how many occasions did you hear a Howitzer

14 being fired from your side of the line in that period approximately?

15 A. Two or three times a month.

16 Q. All right. And on how many occasions, if at all, in that same

17 period did you hear multiple rocket launchers being fired from your side

18 of the line?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. At all?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.


23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that the witness

24 mentioned multiple rocket launchers.

25 JUDGE ORIE: He doesn't have to. I mean, for cross-examination,

Page 16347

1 there's no -- it's not a reference to what the witness testified earlier.

2 It's a new question.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] But I think that the witness

4 should first of all be asked whether he knows what such a weapon is and

5 whether he ever had the opportunity of seeing such a weapon, if we are

6 talking about firing from multiple rocket launchers.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The question is not whether he saw them, but whether

8 he heard them. That's a question that is admissible. But let me first

9 try to find out.

10 Are you aware of any multiple -- now I'm confused as well. Are

11 you aware of any multiple rocket launchers being fired when you were at

12 your positions, from your side?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

16 Q. What about mortars? Did you hear any mortars being fired between

17 September 1992 and August 1994, from your side of the line?

18 A. From my side, to the right of me, I heard from the locals that

19 they were located somewhere, the mortars were located somewhere. But I

20 don't know in which part.

21 Q. Sir, did you ever hear them fired in that period of time?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Never heard any mortars, never heard any rocket launchers. Don't

24 recall whether you heard any tanks. Howitzers a couple of times. Did you

25 hear any other artillery pieces being fired, apart from your battery, from

Page 16348

1 your side from September 1992 to August 1994?

2 A. As far as I know, I told you about the Howitzer and the mortars,

3 that I didn't hear them. As far as tanks are concerned, yes, because they

4 have a huge destructive power for destroying bunkers. But from which

5 location, that, I don't know.

6 Q. Did you hear any other artillery pieces being fired from your side

7 of the line in that period?

8 A. Well, only field guns. 30 and 40 millimetre calibre ones, as far

9 as I know. I can't be certain. They were right behind the line of

10 defence.

11 Q. Sir, why is it that when I point it out to you in summary, your

12 answers to these questions, you changed your evidence in relation to

13 tanks, whereas earlier you said you didn't remember whether you heard

14 tanks, you now say "as far as tanks are concerned, yes, because they have

15 a huge destructive power for destroying bunkers. But from which location,

16 that, I don't know." Why did you change your evidence?

17 A. As far as I know, I said about the tank. As far as the Howitzers

18 and the mortars are concerned...

19 Q. Let me read to you your earlier answer and the question. Page 51,

20 line 23. Question: "Now, from your battery position, did you hear tanks

21 firing from your side of the line at any stage in that period, from

22 September 1992 until August 1994?" Answer: "I don't remember.".

23 Do I take it that now you do remember hearing them?

24 A. Eight years have passed since the war, and many traumas I went

25 through. So anything could have happened.

Page 16349

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP50, the problem is not that you might have

2 forgotten about what happened eight years ago. The issue Mr. Ierace is

3 raising is that in your previous answer, which is just two or three

4 minutes ago, you said that you didn't remember any tanks being -- hearing

5 any tanks being fired, and that two or three minutes later you give a

6 different answer. That's the issue, not whether you have forgotten

7 something over eight years.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

9 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, listening to the

11 explanation and the answer, I think that the question that Mr. Ierace

12 asked in respect of whether the witness had heard the firing from a tank

13 was in relation to his line.


15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Which is line 21 of 53, of page

16 53. So we're speaking about a line here. I think the question at that

17 time was accurate in respect of the line. Perhaps there should be some

18 clarification added rather than lead the witness in suggesting -- that's

19 how I understand the lines the witness had marked, where his line was,

20 where his position was.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the accused could keep his

22 voice down.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any need to confer with General Galic,

24 would you please take your headphones off and do it as silent as possible.

25 I'll go through all the tanks of the last ten minutes.

Page 16350

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of saving time, might

2 the witness be taken from the courtroom because there's something I wish

3 to say in relation to the objection.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam usher, could you please escort the

5 witness out of the courtroom.

6 Before doing so, I'll try to analyse what we heard until now.

7 That is, on page 51, line 18, on a question when I think Mr. Ierace sought

8 confirmation of an earlier answer, where the witness said: "You could

9 hear shots being fired" and then the witness said: "Yes, shells, but from

10 tanks and from guns, field guns." And then a few lines further, the

11 question was: "Now, from your battery position, did you hear tanks firing

12 from your side of the line at any stage in that period, from September

13 1992?" And then he said: "I don't remember." So first, his answer was

14 that you could hear shots being fired, and specifically asked whether it

15 was from positions on his side of the line, he said: "I don't remember."

16 Then we have tanks again in page 54, line 2. That's general, not

17 related to any of the lines. Never heard any mortars, never heard any

18 rocket launchers. Don't recall whether you heard any tanks. And then the

19 next answer was, "as far as I know, I told you about the Howitzer and the

20 mortar, that I didn't hear them. As far as tanks are concerned, yes, and

21 these were tanks from the side of the lines that were under the control of

22 the witness. At least that's what the question was about. So when he

23 earlier said he didn't know if he heard tanks fired but didn't know

24 whether any tanks were fired on his side of the line, on page 54, he

25 confirms that he did hear tanks being fired from his side of the line

Page 16351

1 because that was what the question was about.

2 So Mr. Ierace, so I tried first to analyse what happened during

3 the testimony. Let me just see whether there's any further -- yes, then

4 you said that the witness changed his position.

5 Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Just two points quickly, Mr. President. After I

7 first asked the question, I then asked him about Howitzers, and he had no

8 difficult in saying that he heard Howitzers firing from some distance

9 away, not close to where he was. So that confirms his understanding of

10 the question. And secondly, I think it's inappropriate for my learned

11 colleague to state the objection in the terms that she did in the presence

12 of the witness. If the witness is now asked questions in re-examination

13 about this issue, and if the answers are in accordance with what

14 Madam Pilipovic has said she wondered, perhaps he thought, then the

15 evidence is deprived of probative value, the witness having heard the

16 words of Madam Pilipovic's objection. So I simply ask that any further

17 objections not be made in the presence of the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Or in such general terms that it's only

19 understandable for lawyers, I take it.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thought the witness

23 had a headset, and therefore couldn't hear what I was saying, so didn't

24 hear what I said.

25 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, if he has a headset, everything you say

Page 16352

1 will come to him in the original language. So if he has his headset on,

2 then I take it that he fully understands whatever has been said. Perhaps

3 this is good to know also for witnesses still to come. Apart from that, I

4 noticed that the witness seems to look at the screen even -- I don't know

5 whether there appears any text, but I cannot exclude that because I can't

6 see it from here.

7 Madam usher, could the witness please be escorted into the

8 courtroom again. And may I urge the Defence to be very careful with the

9 objections.

10 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


12 Q. Sir, you were asked questions about the heavy weapons exclusion

13 agreement. Did that become effective from midday on the 19th of February,

14 1994?

15 A. I don't know the exact date. I just know when the agreement came

16 into force, we stayed and whether it was UNPROFOR, IFOR, or SFOR, they

17 wouldn't let us go.

18 Q. Did you stay at the position of your battery from that date until

19 August 1994, or did you move somewhere?

20 A. We were there all the time. SFOR wouldn't let us go.

21 Q. Together with the rest of your battery crew, you all stayed there

22 until August 1994?

23 A. Yes, myself and all the weapons. They all stayed there. And the

24 men as well.

25 Q. Given that the weapons could not be fired, did you or your men

Page 16353

1 take some time off and leave that area, and perhaps mix with other members

2 of your brigade, if not your battalion?

3 A. We had to look after the weapons. We were working in shifts, you

4 understand, two days on, two days off.

5 Q. Two days on, two days off, and nothing to fire for six months. Is

6 that the position?

7 A. We couldn't fire. SFOR wouldn't let us.

8 Q. Before the agreement came into effect, how would you take delivery

9 of the shells that you would fire from your battery? Were they brought to

10 you, perhaps on a truck?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when the truck left, would it still have some shells on it for

13 delivery elsewhere?

14 A. A small quantity arrived, and it was just for me.

15 Q. Did you ever ask the deliverers whether there were any other

16 batteries in the area such as yours?

17 A. I didn't. Most of the time we were just mucking about.

18 Q. Do you know whether your battalion had rocket launchers?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. Can you understand that it's a little odd to hear you say that,

21 given that you were in this position for such a period of time, you were

22 the commander of your battery, in a static position, and that you tell us

23 that you don't know whether your battalion had rocket launchers?

24 A. I don't know. Perhaps there was, and perhaps there wasn't. If I

25 had seen it personally, then I would have said that it was there.

Page 16354

1 Q. You understand I'm not asking you whether you saw it personally,

2 but whether you had any knowledge. You understand that, do you?

3 A. [No audible answer]

4 Q. All right. Do you know whether your battalion had any mortars?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Does that mean you don't know or it didn't have any?

7 A. Don't know.

8 Q. Do you know whether it had any Howitzers?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you know whether your brigade had any tanks?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How many?

13 A. Don't know.

14 Q. You told us that through your binoculars, you could see Zuc. I

15 take it there were times when you were firing in Zuc in company with

16 batteries from elsewhere firing on Zuc. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When that happened, were you able to work out where the fire was

19 coming from, that is, the fire other than from your battery?

20 A. Since the settlement or the town of Vogosca is in a valley, both

21 the firing and the detonations would be as they happened in a valley, and

22 they would echo, because it was a valley. It was impossible to know where

23 the firing was coming from.

24 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand my question. In relation to firing

25 at ABiH positions on Zuc where you had a direct line of sight and the

Page 16355

1 assistance of your binoculars, when there was coordinated fire, were you

2 able to work out where the fire was coming from, that is, the explosions

3 as a result of fire from other than your battery?

4 A. It wasn't possible to hear from the detonations.

5 Q. You're saying that you couldn't hear the shells explode on Zuc.

6 Is that what you're saying?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Zuc was only about 4 kilometres away, wasn't it, from your

9 position, the top of Zuc?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. There was a direct line of sight, you've told us. You could see

12 it through the binoculars. Correct?

13 A. But the slopes of Zuc facing me, facing my firing position, which

14 means the line that I drew.

15 Q. Sir, when you fired in the direct mode, in other words, you were

16 firing at a target that you could see, and that target was on Zuc, did you

17 hear the explosions that you could see through your binoculars?

18 A. Some, yes; and some, no.

19 Q. Sir, you tell us that some of the shells that you fired with your

20 artillery you could see explode on Zuc, but you couldn't hear them. Is

21 that correct? Is that correct?

22 A. A shell that I would fire, and I would see the target, I could see

23 it. And when the target, like a tank or mortars were targeted, then I

24 couldn't see.

25 Q. Did you ever hit the tank?

Page 16356

1 A. At those distances, I wasn't able to. But at least I disabled it

2 from being active. What I mean is -- how should I explain that? It was a

3 kind of firing like disabling firing, firing to disable. It wouldn't be a

4 direct firing or a direct targeting. Perhaps something was around it.

5 Q. Sir, how many times did you do that, did you disable the tank?

6 A. According to my information, things that I know personally, there

7 were two tanks on Zuc. One was disabled. Now, whether I had done it or

8 the troops that were on the line, I don't know. Because they had

9 hand-held rocket launchers.

10 Q. Between September 1992 and August 1994, do you say that there was

11 a tank disabled throughout that period on Zuc?

12 A. From September 1992, is this how I should understand your

13 question?

14 Q. Yes, yes.

15 A. I was on sick leave.

16 Q. All right. When did you first learn that there was a disabled

17 tank on Zuc?

18 A. In the second half of 1993. And I was on sick leave from

19 September to January, that is, from September 1992 until beginning of

20 January 1993.

21 Q. As you understand it, was there ever a period of time up until

22 August 1994 from 1993 when there were two tanks undisabled firing from

23 Zuc?

24 A. I don't understand the question.

25 Q. Sorry. Was there any period in 1993 or up until August 1994 when,

Page 16357

1 as you understood it, there were two active tanks on Zuc?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then why is it that the first we heard from you of there being two

4 tanks was just a few minutes ago? Why didn't you mention the second tank

5 before?

6 A. You didn't ask me. I said a tank. And a tank is a mobile.

7 Understand? Tank, that means can be in all the places. Perhaps there

8 were several tanks. I know about one that I saw was destroyed. But

9 again, after a certain period of time, news came from the line that from

10 the sector 850, Orlic elevation point, a tank was active because they

11 could hear the engine running.

12 Q. Sir, correct me if I am wrong, perhaps I'm mistaken. Didn't you

13 tell us a number of times in answer to questions asked by the learned

14 lawyer for the Defence that there was "a tank" operating in position

15 number 4, as you marked on the map? You always referred to "a tank," not

16 "tank"?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And the first time you mentioned two tanks is when I asked you if

19 you ever hit the tank. Is that correct?

20 A. I said perhaps there were two tanks, and perhaps that one tank was

21 in one place, and perhaps that's the place that was destroyed. Perhaps a

22 second tank came. I can't claim that this tank that was destroyed, that

23 that was the tank that was at the elevation point between --

24 Q. All right. I want to make sure I understand your answer. It

25 reads: "I said perhaps there were two tanks and perhaps that one tank was

Page 16358

1 in one place and perhaps that's the place that was destroyed. Perhaps a

2 second tank came." Do I now understand your evidence to be that you're

3 not sure there was ever a second tank? Is that what you're saying?

4 You're not sure?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Do you remember I asked a few minutes ago if at any stage there

7 were two tanks active on Zuc in 1993 up to August of 1994, and you said

8 yes? Do you remember giving that evidence?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that perhaps

11 my learned colleague could give us the reference, where was it that the

12 witness had said that, so that the witness doesn't get confused.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The rule is that if it was only a very short

14 time ago, it was not necessary. But we'll find it.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It's page 63, line 7.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. I'll read the question to you, and your answer a few minutes ago.

19 Question: "Was there any period in 1993 or up until August 1994 when, as

20 you understood it, there were two active tanks on Zuc?" Answer: "Yes."

21 Do you remember being asked that question and giving that answer?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown two

25 photographs. They are exhibits P3764 and P3765. I might indicate these

Page 16359

1 have been produced during the break.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The one photograph you would like to start

3 with...

4 MR. IERACE: If both of them can be shown to the witness,

5 Mr. President.



8 Q. I think on the ELMO now, sir, we have a photograph of an artillery

9 gun connected to a truck. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

11 Q. And the Zis 3 that we see being towed by the truck.

12 A. What did you say?

13 Q. Is that the -- well, I'll rephrase it. Is that the artillery

14 piece that you had, that you had, on Pticja Brdo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, look at the other photograph. Is that the M48, and I think

19 at various times you've also referred to it as the B1?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. Now, you were asked what was the range of the B1. And

22 you told us that you only fired it up to five or five and a half

23 kilometres because that's all you needed to fire it. But it had a range I

24 think you said up to 8 kilometres. Is that correct, the B1, or as it's

25 referred to here, the M48?

Page 16360

1 A. B1, you mean B1, you mean this field gun up to 8 kilometres, but

2 we used it for distances for up to 5 kilometres because we had no need to

3 fire over 5 kilometres.

4 Q. Yes. You didn't tell us about the other one, that is, the Zis.

5 Did it have a maximum range of 13 kilometres?

6 A. As far as I remember, I said about 12.

7 Q. And over what range did you use it? What was the maximum range

8 that you ever used it?

9 A. In the area of Zuc, so those lines that we drew, that was the

10 range. 3.5, 4 kilometres. I'm not quite sure. And the transport

11 faculty. I don't know what the range is. And it was about 5.5

12 kilometres.

13 Q. Now, although you only used it to fire as far as Zuc, 3.5 to 4

14 kilometres, it was capable of firing into the city, wasn't it?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why not?

17 A. Because there was no need to do that because I had no orders

18 whatsoever to fire at the city --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP50, may I interrupt you. Would you please

20 carefully listen to the questions. The question was not whether there was

21 any need to fire with this weapon into the city, but whether the weapon

22 was capable, that means whether you could if you would have wanted to do

23 so, to fire into the city. Now would you please carefully listen to the

24 question so that your answer is to the question. Yes, so the question was

25 whether with this weapon of which you said the maximum range was 12 to 13

Page 16361

1 kilometres, whether you could fire into the city from your position. The

2 question is not whether you did or whether you wanted, but whether you

3 could.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think -- yes. One moment, please.

6 Mr. Ierace, if you could find a suitable moment soon to have a

7 break, let's say within the next couple of minutes. Please proceed.


9 Q. All right, now, the B1, is that sometimes known as the Tito gun?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. All right. Is it sometimes referred to as a mountain gun?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And is the reason for that the fact that it can be disassembled,

14 in other words, it can be pulled apart rather easily and transported over

15 rough terrain?

16 A. Yes, it is possible to disassemble it. But because it's an old

17 field gun, so all the parts like nitrates and oil, leakage can happen. So

18 in the war it was never disassembled. But in peacetime, it is possible to

19 disassemble.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, I understand that. Thank you, Mr. President,

21 that's a suitable time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you please escort the witness out

23 of the courtroom before we adjourn.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one question

25 before we go to have a break: The Defence knows that one witness who is

Page 16362

1 supposed to come next has been waiting since 12.00. But he travelled all

2 day yesterday, and arrived this morning. So perhaps could we have the

3 information whether he's going to start testimony today, bearing in mind

4 that he's had a very tiring journey. Perhaps it would be possible to

5 inform the victims and witness unit --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Your question.

7 Mr. Ierace, how much time would you still need for the cross-examination

8 of the witness? You've taken until now one hour as far as I can see.

9 MR. IERACE: Could you assist me with the Prosecution time,

10 Mr. President?

11 JUDGE ORIE: One hour until now.

12 MR. IERACE: And -- I'm sorry, the Defence time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence time was one hour and a half.

14 MR. IERACE: I imagine that I'll take about half an hour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that would mean that if we would restart at

16 1.00, that we might even start with the next witness, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Without giving any guarantee, I could not exclude

19 either that we would start with the next witness even today. So the

20 Chamber would appreciate if the witness would remain available,

21 Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MR. IERACE: Could I say, Mr. President, according to our figures,

23 there was a 9 or 10-minute break in the middle of my examination.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I didn't -- I don't know whether it was 9 or 10

25 minutes. But there was some time when the witness left the courtroom.

Page 16363

1 Yes, I do understand that you've taken, if the time would be

2 would be deducted, when the witness left the courtroom, and what we

3 discussed should not be reducted from the Prosecution time, you would have

4 another 45 minutes. You would use that time, Mr. Ierace?

5 MR. IERACE: I'll try very hard not to, Mr. President. I expect

6 I'll be finished in half an hour. I'll try to finish in half an hour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If that is the case, I can't guarantee that we would

8 not start with the next witness. It all depends also on how much time you

9 would need for re-examination and how many questions the Judges would

10 have.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could assist, there was that

12 issue of maps which would take 5 minutes or so, if you were interested in

13 using the time productively without going on to the next witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, let's just assume that we'll be a few questions

15 in re-examination, that there might be a few questions from the Bench, and

16 that we would need some time for maps, then the witness and victims unit

17 could be informed that we'll not start with the next witness today. Yes.

18 We'll adjourn until 1.00.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.39 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I was informed that you might even finish

23 more quickly with the present witness. But, Madam Registrar, is just

24 checking, but the next witness might have left already, and I'm not going

25 to ask him to come back for a couple of minutes if he has left the

Page 16364

1 building.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, I'm sorry about that, Mr. President. I reviewed

3 my remaining questions over the break, and I think I can finish fairly

4 quickly.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll see whether, but we're not going to ask

6 the witness to come back if he left the building.

7 Then, could you please escort Witness DP50 back in the courtroom,

8 Madam usher.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, so as to assist the Trial Chamber,

10 some of the next questions relate to the evidence by the investigator by

11 the name of Kucanin, as you may recollect.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: May I ask the witness be shown the second map shown

14 to the witness by Defence counsel. I don't recollect the exhibit number.


16 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

17 Q. Might the map be placed on the ELMO so that circled area number 1

18 is in the centre of the screen. Perhaps the -- thank you. And if we

19 could zoom in. Thank you.

20 Would you please place the pointer on the circle around

21 Pticja Glava.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Thank you. There's a town which appears immediately to the bottom

24 right of the circle. Would you place your pointer on that. I think it's

25 Krivoglavci. Place your pointer again on the circle.

Page 16365

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Thank you. Would you please pronounce that name for us.

3 A. Krivoglavci.

4 Q. Krivoglavci. Thank you. There were mortars in that position, I

5 suggest to you, between September 1992 and August 1994.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we should

8 bear in mind that the fact that from 1992 until January 1993, the witness

9 was on sick leave.

10 MR. IERACE: I'm happy to rephrase the question.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


13 Q. I suggest to you that in 1993 and in 1994, up until August of that

14 year, there were mortars in that area. What do you say to that?

15 A. I don't understand the question.

16 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps had a

17 battery of mortars in that area in 1993 and 1994. Do you agree or do you

18 disagree, or do you say that you don't know?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Do you see on the map to the right, and above Vogosca, a town

21 called Blagovac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I suggest to you that in 1993 and 1994, the Sarajevo Romanija

24 Corps had tanks and mortars in that area. Do you agree or disagree or do

25 you say that you don't know?

Page 16366

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You see on the map a place called Paljevo. To the left --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I suggest to you that in 1993 and 1994, there were either mortars

5 or artillery or both in that area.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What specifically was in that area by way of artillery or mortars?

8 A. I think there were Howitzers there. I couldn't hear mortars being

9 fired. I'm not saying anything about mortars, but since the explosion

10 that you hear when a Howitzer is fired is very loud, one could hear it.

11 Q. Were there parts of Vogosca which were occupied by Muslim

12 residents?

13 A. What do you mean?

14 Q. Well, in 1993 and 1994, to your knowledge, were there parts of

15 Vogosca in which resided persons who identified with the cause of the

16 presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. I don't understand the question.

18 Q. Did you understand that Vogosca had civilians living in it in 1993

19 and 1994?

20 A. Are you referring to the town of Vogosca? I mean to say, the

21 neighbourhood?

22 Q. The town.

23 A. Whether there were Muslims in the town. Is that your question?

24 Q. Yes, as you phrase it, Muslims. Were there Muslims living in

25 Vogosca?

Page 16367

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I suggest to you that civilian areas of Vogosca were shelled in

3 1993 and 1994. Do you agree or disagree or say that you don't know?

4 A. I don't understand the question.

5 Q. I am suggesting to you that in that period of time, areas which

6 were occupied by, as you call it, Muslims, were deliberately shelled by

7 forces of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

8 A. I have told you, as far as I can remember, I wouldn't like it to

9 seem as if I said something mistakenly again. In the town of Vogosca,

10 there were Muslims. They lived in an area where there were Serbs and

11 Croats and Muslims. That's what I said. And the part, if that is what

12 you're after, where the Bosniaks lived, I don't know whether there were

13 any inhabitants there.

14 Q. I suggest to you that shelling from Paljevo hit the Rajlovac area

15 and Buca Potok, and indeed the entire lower part of Sarajevo. Do you

16 agree, disagree, or do you say that you don't know?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. On the map you have drawn for us the sections of the confrontation

19 lines that were of particular relevance to your battery. When --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When the forces of your side, on either side of that section of

22 the front line that you have marked, wanted the assistance -- the

23 assistance of artillery, who provided it?

24 A. My battery and I, and I said that there were 30 and 40 millimetre

25 guns there that were located behind the line. I think this is what I said

Page 16368

1 a few minutes ago, as far as I can remember.

2 Q. And is it your understanding that those guns provided support to

3 the troops from your army on both sides of the section of the front line

4 that you have marked?

5 A. I don't understand.

6 Q. First of all, whereabouts were the positions of the 30 and 40

7 millimetre guns? Perhaps you could point to them.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 MR. IERACE: Witness points to an area --

10 Q. Go on.

11 A. Four to five hundred metres behind the line. Perhaps even further

12 away.

13 MR. IERACE: The Witness pointed to an area to the left,

14 immediately to the left, of the number 7.

15 Q. Would you please place your pointer back on the line. And place

16 your pointer at the end of the bottom left-hand part of the line and keep

17 your pointer there, please.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Thank you. Would you show us the direction of the confrontation

20 lines of your army from that point. Show us where the line went from that

21 point, with the pointer. Thank you.

22 A. [Indicates.

23 Q. Do you know the position of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps front

24 lines further south and west from that point that you have marked?

25 A. I know the line in the direction of Vogosca. But from this point

Page 16369

1 here and in this direction, no, I don't know.

2 Q. Although you do not know it with precision, if that part of the

3 front line needed artillery support, where would that artillery support

4 come from?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

8 answered. He already answered that question put to him by my learned

9 colleague.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. You could look at that in

11 different ways. The question has been answered. The witness says he

12 doesn't know. So there's no need at this point to go into further detail

13 in respect of this objection.

14 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


16 Q. Although you tell us you do not know, do you have any idea at all

17 where artillery support came from for that part of the front line?

18 A. In the depth behind my firing positions. In this area here.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I'm not

20 sure which line we're discussing now, whether the one that the witness has

21 drawn.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I missed what the witness was pointing at. Was that

23 line numbered 7 or...?

24 I see it's somewhere else. It seems to have created some

25 confusion. Would you please take care that it becomes clear, Mr. Ierace.

Page 16370

1 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The area indicated by the

2 witness during the last answer was in the vicinity of the towns which

3 appear on the map as Atovici, in that general area. And I think slightly

4 to the northeast from that town.

5 Q. Are you telling us from that area came artillery support for the

6 part of the SRK front line to the southwest of the portion that you have

7 marked and numbered 7, to the best of your knowledge?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. But the

9 witness said that he didn't know, so I don't see what the purpose of

10 asking this question is.

11 It would just be a matter of speculation. I think that the

12 witness doesn't know how the line continues because on two occasions he

13 said he didn't know. So I think that if we carry on examining the witness

14 in this sense, the witness will only be confused.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But he is giving a few more answers about it.

16 Mr. Ierace, you may proceed with your line of questioning.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ierace, could you ask the witness to point

18 to the place again, because I cannot see number 7 anywhere.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, number 7 is the part of the front line

20 that's already marked.

21 Q. Witness, would you please point to the number 7 that you placed on

22 the map earlier this morning.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Thank you. Now would you please point again to the area from

25 which you think fire, that is, supporting artillery fire, came from, from

Page 16371

1 the part of the front line which is southwest of portion number 7.

2 A. I can't say this with precision. I'm only indicating the area.

3 I'm not showing the exact place. But this is the area.

4 Q. I understand that. Now in relation to the portion of the front

5 line to the northeast of the section that you have marked number 7, do you

6 know where they drew artillery support from?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown the first map. I think

10 it's called C2. I think it was referred to as C2. Mr. President, I

11 understand the next witness isn't available. If that's the case, I'll

12 continue.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is not available, as I understand.

14 If we could finish with this witness today, that would be fine. And there

15 might be questions, so please take that into consideration.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes. I will

17 JUDGE ORIE: We're going to use the copy at this very moment.

18 It's not supposed to be marked.

19 Mr. Ierace, could you please assist the usher to tell her what

20 will be the relevant part.

21 Q. Sir, had you seen this map before you arrived in the courtroom

22 this morning?

23 A. What do you mean?

24 Q. Had you seen a map like this one before it was shown to you this

25 morning, either yesterday or the day before, or years ago?

Page 16372

1 A. It was only possible a few years ago. Quite a few years ago in

2 the sense that Sfora showed such maps.

3 Q. What do you mean by Sfora?

4 A. They had maps, S-F-O-R. Do you understand?

5 Q. Did you ever see a map like this in 1993 or 1994?

6 A. In 1994 or 1995, I don't know exactly.

7 Q. All right. Now, on this map, we see that Pticja Glava had an

8 altitude of 805 metres. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And correct me if I am wrong, Zuc has an altitude of around 850

11 metres. Is that so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When one looks at the terrain between Pticja Glava and Zuc, am I

14 correct in saying that there is nothing in between of a similar altitude

15 to Pticja Glava? In other words, you were on a high point, Zuc was on a

16 high point, and there was nothing particularly high in between.

17 A. Yes, Pticja Glava wasn't as high as Zuc, and there's an empty

18 space between Pticja Glava and Zuc. But Zuc descends -- how should I put

19 it. It descends from an altitude of 850 metres. I'm referring to the

20 altitude above sea level.

21 Q. Yes, I understand. Now, to the right of Pticja Glava, we see some

22 symbols in red. Perhaps you could point to them. Each is within a

23 circle, with circles adjoined by parallel lines.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. What do those symbols mean?

Page 16373

1 A. This is the symbol for artillery weapons. This was my battery's

2 symbol, and I don't know what this symbol is down here.

3 Q. All right.

4 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, the symbol you

5 identified as depicting your battery is the one in the top circle, the one

6 indicating artillery that you could not explain further is in the bottom

7 circle.

8 Q. I understand the bottom one to be identified by you as relating to

9 artillery. Do you say that you don't know what it means beyond that?

10 A. I was only interested in my weapons, what I should know as best I

11 could.

12 Q. Do you mean that -- correct me if I'm wrong, that during the war,

13 you did see maps with that top symbol on them depicting your battery?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many different maps did you see with symbols for your battery,

16 or a symbol for your battery? Are we talking about just the one map or

17 different maps from time to time?

18 A. Well, three or four maps, perhaps even five.

19 Q. Were any of those maps shown to you by your superiors?

20 A. You mean my superior?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. He showed it to me, but without these symbols.

23 Q. I asked you about maps with the symbol on it for your battery.

24 How many such maps?

25 A. Two or three. Not many.

Page 16374

1 Q. Were any of those two or three shown to you by your superior?

2 A. Once.

3 Q. Was that at the battery or somewhere else?

4 A. At the battery.

5 Q. Did you ever go to your superior's office?

6 A. I didn't need to.

7 Q. We see a flag-type symbol over Vogosca. That is a triangle --

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

10 A. I don't know exactly.

11 Q. You told us that when you fired, you used reference points. What

12 were the reference points?

13 A. Reference points that denote a location of something, that is, of

14 a target, XYZ.

15 Q. All right. Do you mean that you had prerecorded coordinates for

16 targets that you were likely to need to hit in the future?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you remember that you told us this morning that you had

19 reference points, and the commander of the line would guide you where fire

20 was coming from?

21 A. I said that they were orientation points. That's a different

22 thing from a reference point. An orientation point is a facility which is

23 visible.

24 Q. All right. Were they points that were designed to enable you to

25 position the artillery guns quickly to hit particular targets?

Page 16375

1 A. I don't understand.

2 Q. When you fired, for instance, at the building in Vogosca that you

3 told us about, did you have reference points that enabled you to do that?

4 A. That building is a large facility, and it is visible. That

5 building itself was an orientation point.

6 Q. Even though you could see it, did you have coordinates for it?

7 Did you have settings that you could adjust on the gun so that you could

8 more accurately hit it with a shell?

9 A. Only in certain cases. But that was very rare. If there was

10 firing at night.

11 Q. But you were able to hit the road, you told us. Is that correct?

12 A. Which road?

13 Q. The road outside the building.

14 A. I don't understand the question.

15 Q. Describe for us the target that you would hit in Vogosca.

16 A. You mean the transport faculty.

17 Q. Yes. Did you ever --

18 A. In front, the faculty, is 100 metres long, and about 50 metres

19 wide. In front of the faculty, by the road --

20 Q. All right, did you not say earlier this morning that you targeted

21 the road as well as the transport faculty?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please give us the source of

23 that. Are you referring to page 34, line 24, 25? Because then in page

24 35, line 2, the answer might not be as clear as...

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, yes, I'm referring to page 24, at

Page 16376

1 line -- excuse me.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I was referring to 34.

3 MR. IERACE: I'm referring to page 24, around line 18. Line 23,

4 question: "Could you first of all point out the road. Could you point to

5 the road and the transport faculty. You said that these positions were

6 firing positions for you." And I think there's an earlier reference as

7 well. I'm conscious of the time, Mr. President. Perhaps --

8 JUDGE ORIE: He mentioned the name of the road. He talked about

9 the Vogosca/Pale Road. It's not that clear to me. Please proceed.


11 Q. Did you target the road near the transport faculty?

12 A. As far as I know, this morning, I mentioned a road,

13 Vogosca/Sumbulovac which was at risk because of the transport faculty.

14 Q. I understand that. Thank you.

15 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

17 Ms. Pilipovic, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one question.

19 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP50, the sound of a field gun when a shell

21 is fired, for instance, from the B1 field gun, I think that's what we

22 said, the second photograph, not the Zis field gun. So the force, how

23 loud is the firing?

24 A. Well, as far as I know about artillery, I think that it is most

25 probably the loudest firing because the barrel is short.

Page 16377

1 Q. Thank you. When you said the loudest firing, how can you make

2 that comparison, the basis of what can you say that?

3 A. Well, even if we compare it to a tank.

4 Q. And when you are speaking about a position, Pticja Glava, 805

5 elevation point, can you tell us and describe for us in relation to 805

6 elevation, where were your tanks positioned?

7 A. Tanks or field guns?

8 Q. I'm sorry, I mean field guns.

9 A. Below the Pticja Glava elevation point.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps we could have a direction

12 rather than elevation. Does below mean further south or further north?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Would that further to the north of 805 or to the

14 south or to the west or to the east? Or tell us in the direction of what

15 village --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean?

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it's below the top, it could be in all

18 directions.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, yes, yes. I don't have the

20 map.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is it in the direction of Krivoglavci or is it in the

22 direction north to Svrake --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not towards Svrake. May I have

24 the map, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, the small one. From the top of the --

Page 16378

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, where number 1 is.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And that is on the southeast --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's where it is.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If I can see it well. Could we zoom in exactly on

5 the -- yes, perhaps -- yes. One is written south of southeast from where

6 it reads 806. Yes. It's clear to me.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 805.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 805, yes. Thank you very much. Madam usher, the map

9 can be removed.

10 Judge Nieto-Navia has one question for you.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE ORIE: We leave the map, Madam usher, yes.

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you point again to the area from which

14 you were guessing that the southwestern line could get artillery support.

15 A. This area here. Is that what you meant?

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. Now, with the colour map,

17 Madam Registrar...

18 A. Can I point now?

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Please do it again on that map.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It's not the area where you can find the

22 symbol for the artillery group, to the south. Is it? Do you see the

23 symbol?

24 A. No. The layout of the terrain is such, you understand, there's

25 hill, valley, hill, valley. Goes up and down. So I showed you the

Page 16379

1 possible location, but it may have been somewhere else. Because the

2 valley has an influence on the noise of the detonation. If you hear it in

3 the valley, it could mean -- it could have the sound as if it was fired

4 from the town.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry. Do you see the symbol of the

6 artillery group in that area? Do you see the symbol, the southern part,

7 the symbol like the one you showed --

8 A. Here.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: To the south. South, south.

10 A. This here. Yes, I can see it.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could be that the area you were pointing?

12 A. I can't say for sure about this one.

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you, if the interpreters

15 would permit us to take a couple of minutes.

16 You told us about Paljevo, and you thought there were Howitzers

17 there. You could hear it when they fired because the explosion is very

18 loud. That's what you told us. You remember?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you heard these Howitzers being fired,

21 from what position? Because I do understand that you have been in two

22 different positions. Was this when you were at Pticja Glava or was this

23 before when you were at Zuc? When did you hear the Howitzers? From what

24 position?

25 A. Well, from Pticja Glava, because that was behind me.

Page 16380

1 JUDGE ORIE: From there, you heard the Howitzers. Do you know

2 where these Howitzers -- they were not part of your battery. To what unit

3 did they belong? Were they Howitzers in the battalion, or were they --

4 A. I don't know. I don't know. Because that's a wooded area. I

5 don't know that terrain. And of course, we were afraid to go there.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What would be approximately -- you said it was

7 just behind you. What would be approximately the distance between

8 Pticja Glava and Paljevo?

9 A. One and a half kilometres to two kilometres, depending on the

10 layout of the terrain.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you explain to us during your testimony

12 when you were asked whether you ever heard Howitzers fired from your side

13 of the line, you told us that it was from a far distance that you could

14 hear it, and you mentioned 5 to 6 kilometres. Now you're telling us that

15 Howitzers, at least what you thought to be Howitzers, were fired from

16 Paljevo which was at a distance of approximately one and a half kilometre.

17 What could explain these two, as far as I understand them, rather

18 different answers?

19 A. You're right. The positions change. Because if a position is

20 uncovered by the Muslim artillery, then that position has to change.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Because that still does not explain the difference in

22 your answers because when asked about whether you heard Howitzers being

23 fired, it was about the whole period of time. And you said only from a

24 distance 5 to 6 kilometres. You didn't say 5 to 6 kilometres, but later

25 on one and a half kilometre. The question was about the whole period.

Page 16381

1 You didn't say one and a half kilometres; you said 5 to 6 kilometres.

2 What explains, apart from the explanation you just gave, the difference in

3 your two answers?

4 A. Only perhaps that I didn't know the distance exactly, and that's

5 why I answered like that. That's what it may have seemed to me to start

6 with. Because on the map, it looks differently. And when you walk on

7 foot, then it is longer.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have no further questions.

9 I think we can deal with the documents tomorrow. This concludes

10 your testimony in this Court, Mr. DP50. And I'd like to thank you very

11 much for having come the far way from where you live to The Hague and I'd

12 like to thank you for answering all the questions of both parties and of

13 the Bench. You're excused now.

14 Madam usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

15 courtroom.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think talking about the maps would ask

19 the impossible from the interpreters. So therefore, I'd rather do that

20 tomorrow morning right at the beginning. I hope that it will take limited

21 time. If there would be any communication between the parties so that

22 they could offer us a solution together, that would be highly welcomed by

23 the Chamber.

24 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

Page 16382

1 at 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

2 the 27th day of November, 2002,

3 at 9.00 a.m.