Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16784

1 Wednesday, 4 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would

6 you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Before we resume the

10 examination of Witness DP17, I can now confirm to you that we will not sit

11 on the 11th, the 12th and the 13th of December. That means we will only

12 sit on Monday and Tuesday next week. Then, Madam Usher, could you please

13 escort the witness into the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 WITNESS: WITNESS DP17 [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP17, may I remind you that you are still bound

18 by the solemn declaration you have made at the beginning of your

19 testimony. Before you will be examined by counsel for the Prosecution,

20 I'd like to ask you one question, but I would rather do that in private

21 session. Could we turn into private session.

22 [Private session]

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Page 16785

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again. Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist because the ELMO

Page 16786

1 is obstructing the view. If you could please remove it. Yes. Thank you.

2 It is the upper part that is...

3 MR. MUNDIS: Can you lower the mirror part, is that possible? We

4 will make do, Mr. President.



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18 A. To the brigade commander.

19 Q. Witness, when you held this position, what was your rank?

20 A. Well, I entered the war with the rank of sergeant and I think that

21 at the time when I was carrying out this duty I held the rank of second

22 lieutenant.

23 Q. So to the best of your recollection during the time that you held

24 this post you were an officer in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps; is that

25 correct?

Page 16787

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During the time period when you held this duty from the end of

3 1992 until May or June 1993, did you have an office, and if so, where was

4 that office located?

5 A. Well, I had an office and it was located at the command of the

6 brigade.

7 Q. Can you refresh my recollection, Witness, as to where the brigade

8 headquarters was located?

9 A. It was located at the Velika Aleja or the great alley, and it was

10 the so-called villa of Sipad company. It was Velika Aleja at Ilidza, of

11 course.

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22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps there is a problem of

24 interpretation, but I don't think it's useful to correct it now.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

Page 16788


2 Q. I'll repeat the question, Witness: Having been trained as a

3 lawyer, did you have any specific functions regarding legal issues during

4 the time that you held this post?

5 A. Well, you see yesterday I clearly said that I completed the first

6 degree of the law school which means that I didn't complete the entire

7 degree. So I couldn't be a lawyer. According to our regulations you have

8 to finish the entire -- all the years of law school or four years of the

9 school. And you also have to pass a special exam in order to be a

10 practising lawyer. So I wasn't a lawyer in that sense. I couldn't be.

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13 [redacted] So that's why I had

14 to explain that I couldn't even theoretically be a lawyer, that's what I

15 wanted to clear up. But certainly there were legal matters, of course,

16 except that we also had administrative assistants, associates, so to

17 speak. These were officials at this post and they also carried out duties

18 that you are mentioning. These are legal matters.

19 Q. What kind of legal matters did you deal with during the time

20 period from late 1992 through May of 1993?

21 A. Well, I said clearly and I listed the duties that I carried out.

22 Very few purely legal matters. My job was to gather information about the

23 morale in the brigade, and I can repeat so that there is no dilemma.

24 Cooperation with religious dignitaries on the local level, and I said

25 mostly during the Serb Orthodox holidays, and I also said that

Page 16789

1 unfortunately my post also included carrying out duties in relation to

2 funerals and providing accommodation for these families as much as we were

3 able to. And I can be more specific, and it is also going to funerals,

4 going to express condolences and so on, and also cooperation with the

5 local newspaper and the local radio station in relation to these duties to

6 do with the morale in the unit that I belonged to.

7 Q. I understand that aspect --

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask to turn into private session.

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Page 16794

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE ORIE: It is confirmed on my screen, Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 16795

1 Q. Witness, did your duties include any kind of disciplinary issues

2 such as those that might affect the front lines?

3 A. Well, it included cooperation with the Military Police whose duty

4 it was to provide security and, perhaps, although we didn't really have

5 such cases, they had to respond to failure to go to the line to the combat

6 line, to go to the trenches, to go to guard posts. They had to prevent

7 trafficking, if such phenomena appeared that had to do with selling

8 cigarettes, cars. Special attention was paid to preventing alcohol from

9 being consumed to preventing trafficking. If there was such situations,

10 well, these weren't desirable situations. So, in that sense, there was

11 such cooperation.

12 Q. I assume, Witness, that you regularly attended brigade staff

13 meetings, that such meetings were held on a regular basis; is that right?

14 A. Yes. If I wasn't absent, naturally. If I was there, if I was

15 present, the answer is yes.

16 Q. Do you recall at any time during the period from September 1992

17 through August 1994 being present at any of these staff meetings when

18 reports concerning orders violations were discussed?

19 A. Well, there was such situations, too.

20 Q. What kind of orders violations do you recall being discussed

21 during this time period?

22 A. There were situations when it was necessary -- well, for example,

23 I will provide you with an example. They attempted to not to have two

24 brothers in the same trench or father and a son in the same trench. And

25 on the other hand, these people wanted to be together in the one trench.

Page 16796

1 I don't know if I have mentioned this, but our brigade launched decisive

2 defence. We didn't have the right to withdraw because right behind our

3 lines there was the urban part of Serbian Ilidza and our women and

4 children were there. So people would sleep in the trenches. Yesterday, I

5 said about 90 -- when I mentioned 90 per cent combat readiness yesterday,

6 you probably -- you can probably understand this, that this means that men

7 are engaged all the time. So because of that specific situation, since

8 there was constant danger of the trenches being hit and of men being

9 killed, the command's position was rational. They didn't want two

10 brothers to go to the same trench or a father and a son to go to the same

11 trench. But there were such situations when this happened and in a few of

12 those situations you know you put men in different trenches and different

13 shifts, but they would then appear and insist on doing the opposite, not

14 respecting that order. They wanted to be together. So there was such

15 situations and we dealt with them through discussions. We didn't penalise

16 this or rather the brigade commander usually didn't punish this. But

17 there were discussions about this at the brigade command. Other

18 discussions, for example, concerned conditions obtained for a soldier to

19 be and visit his family. We weren't all from Ilidza. There were men,

20 there were soldiers who on the other side about 5 kilometres as the crow

21 flies. But when the airport was handed over to the French UNPROFOR forces

22 for their use, it was closed for us too. And then it was necessary to

23 cover 100 kilometres to get to the Serb -- to the eastern part of Serbian

24 Ilidza. There was people from Pale, from Sokolac, there were people from

25 Herzegovina, from Krajina. So you had to allow these people to visit

Page 16797

1 their families after a few months. Sometimes this would happen a little

2 late. But in that case, the command would discuss, if people returned

3 late, two, three or five days late. In such cases, the commander had to

4 take appropriate measures, mete out the appropriate punishment. So there

5 was discussions at such meetings. I was also present when the men -- when

6 they had leave, when they went home, they would drink and then, as is

7 often the case, there would be unruly behaviour. So we would meet and

8 discuss these things. There were other such cases.

9 Q. Witness, you told us yesterday that you -- that your brigade was

10 under orders to only fire at individuals bearing arms; do you remember

11 that?

12 A. Yes, and I stand by that.

13 Q. At any time from September 1992 through August 1994, do you recall

14 any discussions at staff meetings of your brigade in which there were

15 discussions concerning violations of that order?

16 A. I don't remember talking about violations, but I know that they

17 always emphasised that this should be respected.

18 Q. So what you are telling us is that you are unaware of anyone -- of

19 any discussions concerning anyone violating that order within your

20 brigade; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At any time from September 1992 through August 1994 do you recall

23 having any dealings or interactions with a Military Prosecutor concerning

24 someone violating that order?

25 A. No, I don't remember.

Page 16798

1 Q. Witness, yesterday you told us that tanks fired on Ilidza and you

2 said "our observers reported this." Do you know if this incident or

3 incidents involving ABiH tank fire on Ilidza was reported to the

4 United Nations?

5 A. Yes, it was reported to the observers we mentioned yesterday.

6 Q. Who made the report? Who from your brigade made the report?

7 A. Well, there was even a direct telephone line and a radio link,

8 Motorolas we used, and the brigade commander was responsible for this.

9 This was his field of responsibility.

10 Q. Did the brigade commander report this directly to the UN and if so

11 to whom?

12 A. Well, to the observers with whom he had a -- to whom he had a

13 telephone and radio link. And we also had regular reports, regular

14 contact. You are asking me just about the UN forces now. So it was for

15 the UN force whose were at the airport and the observers that I mentioned

16 yesterday. So there was a direct telephone line and a radio link, a

17 Motorola link, And also through written reports.

18 Q. Was the Motorola radio link a field-type radio, a portable radio,

19 or was it a radio that sat on a desk at the brigade headquarters?

20 A. No, they were Motorolas, mobile devices.

21 Q. They were hand-held walkie-talkie type radios; is that right?

22 A. Yes, yes, exactly.

23 Q. How many personnel in your brigade had one of these Motorola

24 radios that could be used to communicate with the UN?

25 A. Only the commander and we had an officer for communications and

Page 16799

1 for contact with UNPROFOR. So he was the other person who had direct link

2 to them.

3 Q. But there were two people, is that what you are telling us, the

4 commander and the communications officer, both had Motorola hand-held

5 radios to communicate with the UN?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall if the commander carried that Motorola radio with

8 him at all times or at those times when you saw the commander, did he have

9 that Motorola radio with him?

10 A. All the time, as far as I can remember.

11 Q. Did you, on those occasions when you were with the commander,

12 could you hear the UN communications taking place on the radio as well?

13 A. You mean between us or the commander of the brigade, the commander

14 of the brigade and the UNPROFOR members or the UNPROFOR members among

15 themselves? The interpretation I received said that it concerned UNPROFOR

16 members talking among themselves.

17 Q. Actually, both. Let's start with the first situation. I assume

18 that if the UN was attempting to contact the brigade commander that you

19 would be able to hear that on the radio that the brigade commander had

20 with him; is that right?

21 A. Well, that's logical, if I was there.

22 Q. Could you also hear communications between the UN officers,

23 perhaps speaking amongst themselves in English or French or some other

24 language, could you also hear them speaking between themselves on the

25 radio that your commander had?

Page 16800

1 A. No. I think that would have been difficult. I think that in

2 general it is practically something that is difficult, but I never heard

3 such things.

4 Q. To your recollection you never heard any languages being spoken on

5 the UN Motorolas or the Motorolas that you had, other than when they were

6 trying to communicate with your brigade commander?

7 A. Well, yes.

8 Q. You also mentioned a landline telephone that was available. Was

9 that a regular telephone where the brigade commander or communications

10 commander would pick up the phone and dial a number, or was it a direct

11 line where the commander or communications officer would simply pick up

12 the phone and someone on the other end would automatically answer?

13 A. It was a line that was used -- it was an existing telephone line

14 that was used so it was used for regular telephone communication before

15 the war. And that line was used as a direct telephone line.

16 Q. Do you know when the brigade commander or communications officer

17 was using that phone to speak to the UN, do you know the physical location

18 of the person that they were speaking to within the UN? Do you know where

19 that person was that they were calling?

20 A. At the airport.

21 Q. Witness, you told us yesterday about the location of four

22 United Nations' observations posts within the area of responsibility of

23 your brigade, including one that you said was right in front of the

24 command. Do you remember saying that?

25 A. Yes, about 100 metres in front of the command.

Page 16801

1 Q. Do you know if these were simply observation posts or were these

2 some kind of checkpoints or checkposts that were manned by UNPROFOR?

3 A. Well, the one you've asked me about, it was just an observation

4 post because there weren't any streets there, there were no cross-roads,

5 so there was no place where they could have put a checkpoint up, no place

6 where they could have carried out controls.

7 Q. From the position of your headquarters, your brigade headquarters,

8 could you --

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask for a clarification, Mr. Mundis. Your

10 question was about four observation posts, and then in the answer I read

11 that the witness said "the one you asked me about," and since I had in

12 mind that you asked about four, I -- unless the witness when he said

13 "about 100 metres in front of the command" but it is my recollection, but

14 unfortunately I cannot consult yesterday's transcript. He told us about

15 four approximately 100 metres in front of the command or is that --

16 MR. MUNDIS: I can clarify it, Mr. President.

17 Q. Witness, yesterday you told us that there were four UN posts,

18 observation posts within the area of responsibility of your brigade; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you told us that one of those four posts was approximately 100

22 metres away from your brigade headquarters; is that right?

23 A. About 100 metres, and that's the one that you asked me about, so I

24 answered the question about that. The question was about whether it was

25 an observation post or an observation post and a checkpoint.

Page 16802

1 Q. Precisely. Now, let's focus now on the one that was near the

2 brigade headquarters which you said was an observation post but not a

3 checkpoint because there weren't any streets there. From the brigade

4 headquarters, were you able to observe what the UN personnel in that

5 observation post were doing?

6 A. You mean directly from the facility where the brigade was located?

7 You want to know whether we could see what they were doing when they were

8 observing; is that what you mean?

9 Q. In general. If you were either coming to the brigade headquarters

10 or departing the brigade headquarters or standing in front of the brigade

11 headquarters or behind the brigade headquarters or beside it, could you

12 see that observation post from the brigade headquarters?

13 A. Well, yes. When I was coming to the brigade command, it would be

14 true to say that we could see it. It was -- I will describe it for you.

15 It was made of sandbags. There was a large space. And when the doors

16 opened, let's call it a door, the entrance to the area, there was no

17 obstruction to one's view. We could see that there was someone with a

18 pair of binoculars observing to the left and to the right. Because our

19 line could be seen from that part, too.

20 Q. Witness, do you recall whether there were usually or regularly any

21 kind of white UN marked vehicles parked next to or in the immediate

22 vicinity of this observation post?

23 A. Yes. I can remember that in the vicinity, they were parked in the

24 vicinity.

25 Q. What kind of vehicles were there, UN vehicles were there?

Page 16803

1 A. They were mostly personnel carriers produced in France. I think

2 it was by Renault. They were white. There were large vehicles and small

3 vehicles. We called the small ones zaba, that is to say frogs.

4 Q. Witness, do you know the nationality of the UN forces that were at

5 this checkpoint or this observation post, excuse me?

6 A. They were from France.

7 Q. Witness, in your own mind did you make a distinction between the

8 various United Nations' forces that were present in Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes, I did. You could distinguish them on the basis of the flags

10 that they had, their national flags. That was the first visual sign that

11 you could observe. And when you had contact with them, naturally it was

12 always clear on their uniforms. In addition to the UN sign they had the

13 sign of the country that they came from.

14 Q. Witness, do you recall the dates that this observation post

15 existed, 100 meters from the brigade headquarters? Do you recall the --

16 approximately the first time you saw it and approximately the last time

17 you saw it there?

18 A. Well, I can't remember when I saw it for the first time. If we

19 are talking about the period of time, I think it was there for over a

20 year, but when exactly I really can't remember.

21 Q. Do you know if these UN forces that were near the brigade

22 headquarters, were they part of UNPROFOR or were they

23 United Nations Military Observers or did you not make a distinction in

24 your own mind between those two categories of UN personnel?

25 A. I think they were United Nations' observers.

Page 16804

1 Q. Do you know if the other three posts that were within your

2 brigade's area of responsibility were posts manned by UNPROFOR or by

3 United Nations Military Observers?

4 A. I really couldn't say for certain.

5 Q. At any of these four posts within your brigade's area of

6 responsibility, did you ever personally speak to any of these UN

7 personnel?

8 A. Personally, I did. I had the opportunity to do so.

9 Q. What kind of the issues did you discuss with these UN personnel?

10 A. Specifically the observation post which was there, and of course

11 the observers, the observers, as you say were there, since there was the

12 observation post. And one day they said they wanted me to go with them to

13 their observation post.

14 Q. Witness, was --

15 A. That was -- that's about the observation post you've asked me

16 about. And I can tell you specifically about the one in Nedzarici, if

17 that is part of the answer. So, yes, I did speak to them.

18 Q. Do you recall on how many occasions you spoke to the UN personnel?

19 A. I cannot say precisely, but there were such talks.

20 Q. Were all of the UN personnel that you dealt with within your

21 brigade's area of responsibility French or were there any UN personnel in

22 your brigade's area of responsibility of another nationality?

23 A. Apart from members who were French, there were also Ukrainian

24 members, UN members in the area of responsibility of our brigade.

25 Although, it did happen that there were also some Spanish UN soldiers who

Page 16805

1 came, but those that we are speaking about, those were stationed there

2 were mostly French or Ukrainian.

3 Q. Do you recall the names or ranks of any of the French or Ukrainian

4 UN personnel that you spoke with?

5 A. I remember Captain Desvouges [phoen] specifically, he was French.

6 And yes I remember that there were also Dutch soldiers. There was one

7 lieutenant-colonel I remember who happened to be there. He was

8 lieutenant-colonel from Holland, and he happened to be there on our

9 Orthodox Christmas. He celebrated with us on that day. He wanted to go

10 to the line with us, that was on the 7th of January 1994. There were also

11 English soldiers, but I don't recall any names.

12 Q. Witness, were there ever any occasions when you personally were

13 sent by the brigade commander to lodge a formal complaint with anyone from

14 the UN?

15 A. Personally, I didn't -- earlier I don't know whether you said or

16 whether I clarified that we, as a brigade, for that level we had to inform

17 the liaison officer at the corps in case there were any protests, any

18 complaints, if that's what you mean, where there would be our liaison

19 officer at the corps, and he would react, he would deal with it. So I --

20 I didn't quite understand because why would a commander, if he had a -- if

21 he had a liaison officer and that was his area of expertise, why would he

22 want me to do something, and he wasn't there?

23 Q. Witness, who was the liaison officer at the corps level that you

24 referred to?

25 A. That was Mr. Indjic.

Page 16806

1 Q. Were any complaints that your brigade would have had funneled

2 through that individual?

3 A. Personally, I did not. For the commander, I don't know. As far

4 as this gentleman is concerned, I know that he was there and I've even

5 seen him on a couple of occasions. But specifically I never had contacts

6 with him because, again I reiterate, this was the area of responsibility

7 of the brigade commander.

8 Q. So, Witness, what you are telling us is that no time did you ever

9 personally report any formal complaints to any member of any UN command in

10 Sarajevo?

11 A. If you'll allow me, I'd like to clarify something here. When

12 persons happen to be there, members of UNPROFOR forces, if they happen to

13 be there, and if then there was firing at that time, specifically when

14 there was a truce that was agreed or signed, well then I cannot rule out

15 the possibility that I didn't say to them, "the Muslim side is firing on

16 our positions or on Ilidza," or perhaps I may have said, "can't you see

17 what is happening." So I cannot rule out the possibility that I did not

18 have the opportunity to say this and to report myself, as well. But when

19 we are talking about official contact, I told you who was in charge of

20 that, and that was the brigade commander. So there were also these kind

21 of situations. When I would find myself in a situation when it would be

22 not be logical if I was sitting there and I was observing this, and then

23 it would be illogical for me not to tell them, "can't you see what they

24 are doing." So that would be the answer to that question, as it was -- as

25 it was interpreted to me, your question.

Page 16807

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you ever personally receive any reports

2 from any military officer within the United Nations concerning allegations

3 that members of your brigade were intentionally sniping at civilians; yes

4 or no?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever personally receive any reports from any military

7 officer within the United Nations concerning allegations that forces from

8 your brigade were intentionally shelling civilians; yes or no?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was the topic of United Nations' complaints about sniping of

11 civilians ever brought up at any staff meeting that you attended; yes or

12 no?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer that question, Mr. DP17. The

15 question was whether the topic of United Nations' complaints about the

16 sniping of civilians were ever brought up at any staff meeting that you

17 attended? Was it or was it not?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in a sense that -- well,

19 perhaps you could clarify the question. Mr. President, I'd like to ask

20 the Prosecutor if he can just clarify this question a little bit. What I

21 mean is, first of all, we didn't have snipers, so I don't understand that

22 we could have discussed something which we didn't have.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That is the reason why I repeated the question. The

24 question is whether any complaint from the United Nations about sniping.

25 You are not asked to confirm whether there was any sniping. But whether

Page 16808

1 ever a complaint of the United Nations about sniping was discussed during

2 a meeting you attended, any staff meeting?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall that.


5 Q. You've talked about -- Witness, you told us that on several

6 occasions you were at the corps, you saw the accused, General Galic, and

7 that on about ten occasions he was at your brigade headquarters. At any

8 time when the accused, General Galic, was present, was the topic of

9 United Nations' complaints about the sniping of civilians ever discussed;

10 yes or no?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On how many occasions, to the best of your recollection, was that

13 the topic of discussion?

14 A. Well, I have to -- I have to -- evidently I have to clarify this.

15 There was, in a sense, that the Muslims -- and I recall this extremely

16 well -- that the Muslims reported that somebody was firing. And then the

17 general would order that there shouldn't be any firing, absolutely no

18 firing on civilians. And I said that yesterday and I stand by that. That

19 every time when we met this order was reiterated. Independently, whether

20 there was a report in this sense, the one report that you are mentioning,

21 but in any case it was always stressed that attention has to be paid and

22 we did pay attention and that is how we forwarded this, that civilians

23 were not to be targeted while it was logical to fire on Muslim soldiers on

24 the other side. It was war.

25 Q. Witness, let me repeat the question: On how many occasions to the

Page 16809

1 best of your recollection, was that the topic of discussion?

2 A. I recall that at least once we discussed this. And I think it

3 would be arbitrary for me to say that I can't remember if you would ask me

4 about the date, but there were such discussions. There were such

5 discussions and I said, more or less, how these discussions went. There

6 was an exclusive ban, and on the other hand, we didn't fire on civilians,

7 and it was never said directly that UNPROFOR forces had ever seen

8 anything, but it was always that the other side had told them and then

9 they would, of course -- would then report through this way that was done

10 on the local level, what we've already discussed.

11 Q. Witness, you've said this discussion occurred at least once. Do

12 you -- you be more specific how many times do you remember having this

13 discussion with the accused?

14 A. Well, I said at least once it was said, but every time when we had

15 discussions it was ordered by the general to all those who are present at

16 these reporting meetings, it was always stressed that civilians were not

17 to be targeted, that civilian facilities were not to be targeted. And now

18 it was -- I have to say it was very hard for us. You know the situation,

19 if you followed it. I said yesterday if you know, you'll probably know,

20 all our lines, our positions were on a flat piece of land in a valley.

21 All our houses were either on ground floor level or one-storey buildings.

22 So it was difficult to break these ceasefires any, to violate them. So it

23 was always our complaints that we -- we had to make. How were they making

24 up these complaints, I don't know. I know that the general,

25 Stanislav Galic, every occasion whenever we met he availed himself of that

Page 16810

1 opportunity to warn how important it was to respect Geneva Conventions.

2 And if I have to reiterate it again, I will, that civilians should not be

3 targeted, should not be fired on, that cultural and religious facilities

4 should not be fired on. And all this I have already told you about.

5 Q. Witness, you've told us that you met with General Galic on three

6 or four occasions at the corps. By that I take it you mean at the corps

7 headquarters at Lukavica Barracks; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you've told us that on approximately ten occasions,

10 General Galic came to the brigade headquarters; is that correct?

11 A. At least ten times, more than ten.

12 Q. So what you're telling us is that on each of these at least 13 or

13 14 occasions, General Galic discussed with you complaints that he had

14 received from the ABiH -- from the UN about sniping of civilians?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if this could be done perhaps in the

18 absence of the witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that it is better to do so.

20 Madam Usher, could I please ask you to escort the witness for one second

21 out of the courtroom, Mr. DP17.

22 Mr. Mundis, you reflected the words of the witness by saying that

23 "so what you are telling us then is that on each of these at least 13 or

24 14 occasions, General Galic had discussed with you complaints that he had

25 received from the ABiH." It is my recollection - I don't know whether the

Page 16811

1 objection was about that - that at all these occasions he repeated his

2 orders, let me say it short, fire at civilians, but then only at least on

3 one occasion but the witness was not clear on whether it occurred more

4 than once. At least more than one occasion the discussion found its

5 origin in a complaint.

6 MR. MUNDIS: That's right, Mr. President. I can rephrase the

7 question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. Madam Usher, could you

9 please -- or is there any other?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, that was perfect,

11 Mr. President, as always.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please escort the witness into the

13 courtroom.

14 You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

16 Q. Witness, let me rephrase the question. You've told us that on at

17 least 13 or 14 occasions General Galic repeated his order that civilians

18 were not to be targeted by snipers; is that correct?

19 A. No. I think that was a leading question. I -- what I wanted is

20 precisely to comment on this. I didn't say this like this. And the only

21 thing I said was that I recall, I know, and this has to be clearly

22 recorded, that these -- at these meetings what was always stressed, which

23 is logical for us and normal for us, that firing is not to be done. I

24 didn't mention sniping. And General Galic never told us not to fire from

25 snipers, because we never had any snipers. So --

Page 16812

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, the witness corrected himself, but may I

2 add to it that where specific attention was drawn to the answers given by

3 the witness until then, I would have expected not a -- that you would have

4 not put something to the witness that he had not said until that moment.

5 MR. MUNDIS: I apologise for that, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


8 Q. Witness, was the topic of UN complaints about shelling of

9 civilians ever brought up at any staff meeting that you attended?

10 A. You are speaking about the shelling now. I don't recall that

11 there was a discussion regarding this issue.

12 Q. Do you recall any discussion about the issue of UN complaints

13 about shelling ever being brought up in your presence, whether at a staff

14 meeting, in a meeting with the accused or at any other meeting?

15 A. I really don't remember. I cannot recall.

16 Q. Do you recall ever receiving or having discussions about receiving

17 information from the corps liaison officer about complaints concerning the

18 targeting of civilians on the ABiH side of the line, and that the shooters

19 involved were in areas under the control of your brigade?

20 A. I don't remember such a situation.

21 Q. Do you recall at any time when you were attending staff meetings

22 any information being discussed about reports coming from the liaison

23 officer at Lukavica Barracks concerning any subject?

24 A. I don't recall that. You've practically asked me the same

25 question twice. I am saying again, I don't recall.

Page 16813

1 Q. Are you aware of any investigations conducted by your brigade or

2 any of its personnel concerning allegations that forces in the brigade

3 were targeting civilians on the other side of the confrontation line?

4 A. There was never an investigation of this nature, nor do I remember

5 any such thing.

6 Q. At the time that you had discussions with the accused about the UN

7 reports that individuals were targeted, did the accused at any time direct

8 your brigade commander to conduct an investigation?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I ask the

10 Prosecution to clarify on which side, by which side were individuals

11 targeted?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, let me say two things: First,

13 Mr. Mundis, it will be clear to you that the -- that this is a difference

14 between the Prosecution and Defence case, and, therefore, it would be good

15 always to be quite clear on that. On the other hand, I take it,

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that where Mr. Mundis specified this several times in

17 his question that not without giving prior notice he would change that

18 position, so that there would hardly be any chance of confusion, at least

19 chance being so small that the witness certainly would have drawn our

20 attention to similar confusion.

21 I think it is time for a break, but perhaps we first ask the

22 witness to answer the last question. The last question was and I complete

23 it now, that whether you had at any time discussions with General Galic

24 about UN reports that individuals on the BiH side were targeted, that when

25 at the time you had such discussions, whether General Galic at any time

Page 16814

1 directed your brigade commander to conduct an investigation. So was there

2 ever an investigation ordered to the brigade commander?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will have a break. I was not very

5 clear, Mr. Mundis, when I said that the witness corrected himself. That

6 could be understood in two different ways, is that he himself corrected

7 without specification who he corrected. What I should have said is that

8 the witness himself corrected you. We will adjourn until a quarter past

9 4.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, please escort the witness into the

13 courtroom again.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you may proceed.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Witness, I'd like to draw your attention to those occasions when

18 you were present with meetings with the accused at Lukavica Barracks.

19 You've told us that there were three or four such meetings; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the purpose of these meetings?

23 A. The main purpose of the meetings was to report on the situation in

24 our brigade. And this reporting also involved reporting on the security

25 situation, morale in the brigade, logistics, intelligence on enemy

Page 16815

1 activity in the zone defended by our brigade. This was the main purpose

2 of those meetings. Those were the most crucial issues in wartime.

3 Q. Do you recall the approximate time period when these meetings took

4 place, perhaps the month and year, if you don't recall the dates?

5 A. Well, it was during the period we are discussing.

6 Q. You can't be more specific with respect to month and year when

7 these meetings took place?

8 A. It was in 1993 and in 1994. Those are the years concerned. So it

9 was in during that period, 1993, 1994.

10 Q. Witness, I'd like to ask if you recall who was present at these

11 meetings, and in order to save time by not going into private session, if

12 you can simply give us the titles of the persons that you recall being

13 present at that meeting, if you recall?

14 A. There were people from the command of other brigades in the corps.

15 Those people were present. It is difficult for me to remember exactly.

16 They had various ranks, from that of captain up to that of major, or

17 lieutenant-colonel.

18 Q. Was your brigade commander present at these meetings?

19 A. Well, he was there, too, yes.

20 Q. Do you recall if any of the battalion commanders from your brigade

21 were present at the meeting or meetings?

22 A. I don't remember any such meeting.

23 Q. Do you recall if all of the --

24 A. I apologise. If you would allow me, I'd like to clarify this. We

25 are only talking about meetings in the corps command?

Page 16816

1 Q. That's correct.

2 A. Yes. In that case, I don't remember battalion commanders being

3 present.

4 Q. Do you recall whether commanders, the commanders of the other

5 battalions in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps were present at these meetings

6 as well?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Witness, you mentioned some ten "inspections," was the word you

9 used yesterday, of the brigade which were carried out by the accused. Do

10 you know during which time period these inspections occurred?

11 A. That was also in 1993 and 1994, that was the period concerned, and

12 in 1992, at the end of 1992.

13 Q. Were these inspections carried out over a regular interval, such

14 as every two to three months, the Corps Commander would come to the

15 brigade, or were they bunched so that the ten inspections came in a

16 shorter period of time?

17 A. I can't talk about the plan now. Mr. General -- General Galic

18 would be able to tell you about that, but it was a long time ago. But as

19 you said a minute ago, there were perhaps intervals of a month or two.

20 Q. So it would be fair to say that General Galic came to the brigade

21 headquarters every month or two and conducted one of these inspections; is

22 that a fair characterisation?

23 A. Well, you could say so.

24 Q. What exactly did these inspections entail?

25 A. They would visit individual lines, front lines, and they entailed

Page 16817

1 discussions that I have already mentioned, reports that command brigade

2 submitting reports that I have mentioned. I wouldn't want to repeat

3 myself. That is what it involved.

4 Q. When you say "they would visit individual lines, front lines" are

5 you telling us that General Galic visited the front lines in the area of

6 responsibility of the Ilidza Brigade?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you personally accompany General Galic on any of these visits

9 to the front lines?

10 A. Yes, I personally had the opportunity of accompanying him on one

11 occasion.

12 Q. Do you recall on the occasion that you accompanied him, which part

13 or parts of the front line you visited?

14 A. Well, we visited the north-eastern part of our line. I apologise.

15 I have to correct myself. On two occasions I have just remembered. Once

16 it was the south-western part, that is the part on the slope of Igman, I

17 personally accompanied him. And on one occasion, it was the north-eastern

18 side, that's our line in the direction of the river of Dobrinja. That's

19 where we were together, in those areas.

20 Q. Based on your duties and responsibilities in the period after May

21 1993, did you ever take any special precautions during those times when

22 General Galic visited the front lines of the Ilidza Brigade?

23 A. Well, General Galic didn't allow any special measures to be taken,

24 any security measures. He felt safe among his men, among his soldiers, so

25 that there weren't any particular measures, security measures that were

Page 16818

1 taken. I don't remember any such measures.

2 Q. Do you know or did you receive any reports or information about

3 whether General Galic visited the School for the Blind on any of these

4 visits to the brigade?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Do you know if during any of these visits General Galic visited

7 the School of Theology or the convent?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Do you know during the time periods when or those times when

10 General Galic visited the brigade, if he inspected or reviewed the

11 brigade's reports or documents or files or any of the materials that you

12 may have had in the brigade headquarters?

13 A. I am not aware of him personally examining documents. I wasn't

14 present. I don't remember seeing him personally examining documents,

15 going through documents.

16 Q. Do you know from any discussions that you may have had with anyone

17 about whether General Galic conducted similar inspections of other

18 brigades?

19 A. I couldn't say that I saw that, but one would expect that he did

20 visit other brigades.

21 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with General Galic or anyone

22 else that led you to conclude that General Galic had visited the front

23 lines in other brigades' area of responsibility?

24 A. I believe that he did. And as far as I know, but again it is

25 difficult to remember, I think he did and I also had information according

Page 16819

1 to which he did visit other brigades.

2 Q. Can you be more specific or elaborate upon this other information

3 that you had which led you to that conclusion?

4 A. Well, when speaking to colleagues from those brigades, from

5 commands brigade -- the brigade commands, when speaking to these people, I

6 obtained the information that I have just told you about.

7 Q. Do you recall any of the specifics of what was discussed with your

8 colleagues from other brigades? Do you recall anything that they told you

9 or any specific places where they might have taken the accused when he

10 visited their brigades?

11 A. Well, the places, it wouldn't be appropriate now to say where

12 someone took the General or to say where the General went because that was

13 a matter for that brigade.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP17, if you know, please answer the question.

15 If you don't know, of course, you can't answer the question. But if you

16 know where he was taken or where he went when visiting other brigades,

17 please tell us and if you don't know, please tell us as well.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I really don't know. I don't

19 know the exact places.


21 Q. Witness, based on your experience and your dealings with the

22 accused, did it seem to you that he was the type of commander that one

23 could characterise as a hands-on commander?

24 A. You could say so.

25 Q. Did it seem to you that he had a good sense of what was going on

Page 16820

1 around the front lines of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

2 A. I am convinced that he was very familiar with the situation in the

3 Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

4 Q. Witness, to your knowledge did there ever come a time when the

5 accused set up some kind of command post for the corps within the

6 Ilidza Brigade's area of responsibility?

7 A. I don't remember that.

8 Q. You don't remember any kind of forward command post or any kind of

9 corps level command post in your brigade's area of responsibility?

10 A. There was no forward command post in the zone of responsibility of

11 our brigade.

12 Q. Witness, you told us earlier that on numerous occasions the

13 accused made it clear that civilians were not to be targeted; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you regard that as a -- as an order coming from the command,

17 from the Corps Commander?

18 A. Exactly, among other things.

19 Q. Did you regard this order as being of the type of order that

20 military people would refer to as a standing order?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And by the term "standing order" within military circles, what

23 that means is an order that is in effect indefinitely until it is

24 rescinded; is that right?

25 A. Well, orders are usually in force until they are revoked.

Page 16821












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 16821 to 16827.













Page 16828

1 Q. What does the term "standing order" mean to you, Witness?

2 A. Well, for an example, if I am ordered to march 20 kilometres, I

3 will do so and then I will wait for another order, or I will wait until

4 this order is changed and I am told to return back or to continue. That

5 would be a specific example. That is what you wanted, isn't that right?

6 Q. Well, actually, the type of examples that you just gave might not

7 be standing orders. Let me put it a different way. If you are ordered to

8 march 20 kilometres and you march 20 kilometres, that order has been

9 carried out, right?

10 A. You could also -- you could consider it to have been carried out,

11 but the question is what is the task. Because there -- several orders can

12 be included in one task, isn't that right.

13 Q. Absolutely. But if the order is for you to march 20 kilometres

14 and you, in fact, march 20 kilometres, then that order is carried out and

15 that order in effect is extinguished because you carried out the task you

16 were ordered to do; do you agree with that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. A standing order by distinction would be an order such as "I am

19 ordering you to keep your barracks room clean." That's an order that even

20 though you cleaned the barracks room on Monday, you still have to clean it

21 on Tuesday, and on Wednesday and on Thursday. And the fact that you

22 cleaned it once, doesn't have any bearing at all on the order because it

23 is an order for you to do something over and over and over again; do you

24 agree with that?

25 A. Well, yes, I agree.

Page 16829

1 Q. So the order that you received from General Galic not to target

2 civilians on the other side of the confrontation line was a standing order

3 in the sense that you were to follow that order every single day; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes, clearly. That's very clear.

6 Q. Did you ever hear or read any reports that this order of the

7 Corps Commander was violated by any of the forces within the

8 Ilidza Brigade?

9 A. I didn't hear that.

10 Q. If the order was not violated, Witness, do you have any idea or

11 explanation as to why it was necessary to keep repeating this order, given

12 that it was a standing order?

13 A. Well, you took the example of cleaning up a room, but there is

14 always someone there to control that and to make sure that the area is

15 cleaned. And one would expect that General Galic, given his position, was

16 in a situation which he could control that and insist on what we have been

17 talking about. So as we said, that wasn't his only role. That wasn't the

18 only thing that he told us, if we are referring to the meetings at which I

19 was present.

20 Mr. Prosecutor, this is the impression I am gaining, it seems as

21 if the General only repeated what you are insisting on at all of these

22 meetings. So one gains the impression that all he said was that one

23 should not fire at civilians. I have told you what --

24 Q. Witness, let me try the question once again. If the order was not

25 violated, what was the need to keep repeating the order?

Page 16830

1 A. I will answer that question by providing you another example, it

2 has to do with cleaning weapons. You order the men to maintain their

3 weapons, to clean them, and it is a standing order, and this concerns

4 pistols, rifles, and other weapons. But it is also essential to repeat

5 this every day, to repeat this order that weapons have to be cleaned. I

6 think this answer should be sufficiently clear for you.

7 Q. Witness, based on the staff work that you participated in within

8 your brigade, were you familiar with the locations of your brigade's

9 artillery and mortar assets during the period from September 1992 through

10 August 1994?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Did your brigade have mortars on the grounds of the convent during

13 that period?

14 A. On the grounds of the convent, as far as I know it didn't have any

15 mortars.

16 Q. At any period between September 1992 and August 1994, the

17 Ilidza Brigade had no mortars of any kind on the grounds of the convent;

18 is that what you are telling us?

19 A. As far as I know, it didn't.

20 Q. At any time between September 1992 and August 1994 did the

21 Ilidza Brigade have any mortars deployed on the grounds of the School of

22 Theology?

23 A. I am not aware of that.

24 Q. At any time between September 1992 and August 1994 did the Ilidza

25 Brigade have any mortars deployed at the barracks near Stupsko Brdo?

Page 16831

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. I

2 have to say that I am lost a little bit. Could the witness perhaps take

3 his headphones off?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you first tell us in more abstract terms

5 what -- I am not quite sure whether --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. The problem is,

7 abstractly speaking, bis repetita placent sed non semper et cetera. I

8 think there is a confusion between two terms that have been used. And I

9 don't know whether the Prosecution is using these two terms in the same

10 sense because otherwise the same question is being asked again and I don't

11 know that one thing that has been mentioned, I don't know whether this is

12 the same thing that we are talking about. I hope I have been sufficiently

13 abstract and yet clear.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It is still not clear to me so I would like to ask

15 the usher to -- unless there are -- Mr. Mundis you --

16 MR. MUNDIS: I believe I can clarify the question in such a way

17 that the concerns of the Defence may be alleviated.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So you will reformulate the question and then we will

19 see. Please proceed. Yes, could you please --


21 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the barracks that are on a street

22 named Stupsko Brdo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At any time between September 1992 and August 1994 did the

25 Ilidza Brigade have any mortars deployed at the barracks on

Page 16832

1 Stupsko Brdo Street?

2 A. In Nedzarici we had them, but to say that I have seen them in the

3 barracks, I haven't. But we did have mortars. If you specifically are

4 interested in Nedzarici, yes, we did have mortars there. Because

5 barracks, it encompasses a couple of buildings, that's what we called

6 "barracks."

7 Q. Can you -- Witness, can you please elaborate upon where in

8 Nedzarici your brigade had mortars during this time period?

9 A. I could approximately show you on the map where they were, from

10 what I have seen and the locations that I have seen.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher I ask

12 that the witness be shown the map marked D1814, and that the witness

13 please be provided with the pointer.


15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my approximate

16 assessment, that would be about here. On one occasion I had the

17 opportunity to see that this is where the mortars were located.


19 Q. Witness, do you recall what size the mortars were and

20 approximately how many mortar tubes you saw at that location?

21 A. I think that we had one mortar there, 82-millimetre calibre and

22 120-millimetre calibre, as far as I can recall.

23 Q. Can you please take the blue felt tip marker and at the location

24 you've indicated please mark it with the letter "A" and circle it.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 16833

1 Q. Witness, you told us at that location that you had one mortar

2 there, 82-millimetre calibre and 120-millimetre calibre. By way of

3 clarification, are you telling us that you had one 82-millimetre calibre

4 mortar and one 120-millimetre calibre mortar, so that there were a total

5 of two mortars there?

6 A. Because I saw that when I saw that.

7 Q. What time period did you see those mortars there, what month or

8 day or year did you see those mortars there?

9 A. That was sometime in 1993.

10 Q. Were those mortars kept at that location for the entire period of

11 1993?

12 A. Well, you see, when I came there anyway, when one came to

13 Nedzarici, anyway you couldn't just walk anywhere in Nedzarici freely,

14 particularly people who were armed and in uniform and do that safely.

15 Which means that when I entered Nedzarici while the battalion command was

16 in Nedzarici and we talked about it yesterday, I would go to the battalion

17 command or immediately I would enter the communication trenches because

18 that was the safest way of moving about, in fact, the only safe way of

19 moving about. And it wasn't to be expected for a mortar to be on the

20 first front line inside the communication trench. So that's an

21 explanation why I did not have the opportunity, one or more opportunities

22 to see these mortars.

23 Q. That's fine.

24 MR. MUNDIS: The map can be returned to the Registrar. Thank you,

25 usher.

Page 16834

1 Q. Witness, were you also aware or did you have any knowledge of any

2 mortars being placed along Kasindolska Street between September 1992 and

3 August 1994?

4 A. I did not know that there were mortars along Kasindolska Street

5 because I didn't see them, and I should have been able to see them because

6 it would be impossible for them to be alongside Kasindolska Street because

7 all kinds of convoys went along there. And there were observers and

8 UNPROFOR forces. And I could clarify what you've asked. You asked me

9 about a difference, and I couldn't remember immediately the difference

10 between the monitors or rather the observers and the UNPROFOR forces. The

11 main difference is that the observers or the monitors were unarmed, while

12 the UNPROFOR forces were armed. So this is by way of completing an answer

13 to previous question you asked me.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did there ever come a time when you made

15 enquiries concerning what has been characterised as an air bomb launcher?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President. We

17 are hear -- well, perhaps the witness could take off his headphones.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The usual way is that you -- well, let's -- he

19 has taken his earphones off. Nevertheless it is impossible that he could

20 follow whatever has been said. So would you please try to explain first

21 in the abstract and then see whether we can proceed this way.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have the

23 impression that this goes out -- comes out of the material framework of

24 the indictment because in relation to General Galic, there was never a

25 question that there was an air bomb launcher. So asking questions about

Page 16835

1 something which is not included in the indictment doesn't seem to be

2 proper to us. Moreover, we don't even know about the date and I think

3 that the Prosecution should ask a chronological question first.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether it ever came, of course, that

5 means within the time of the indictment. Mr. Mundis.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, in order to respond I think it is more

7 appropriate for the witness to be escorted out of the courtroom, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could I ask you to escort the witness

9 out of the courtroom.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the next line of questions that the

11 Prosecution proposes to put to the witness do, in fact, or based on the

12 information that we have are in fact outside of the indictment period,

13 however, the weapons system described as an air bomb launcher is a weapons

14 system that is completely indiscriminate. The Prosecution seeks to adduce

15 this evidence to demonstrate the intent of this witness as a senior member

16 of the Ilidza Brigade. The Prosecution contends that this evidence can

17 demonstrate the intent of forces within the control and under the control

18 of the accused with respect to seeking out this type of weapons system.

19 The Prosecution would seek to ask this line of questions in order to

20 demonstrate that the forces under the control of the accused may have been

21 seeking to develop weapon systems which by their very nature, Mr.

22 President, are indiscriminate.

23 JUDGE ORIE: This is about the period before or after the

24 indictment period?

25 MR. MUNDIS: It would appear to be after the indictment period,

Page 16836

1 Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: After the indictment period. Is there any -- is

3 there any clue for you to assume that these weapons were within the

4 Sarajevo Romanija Corps during the indictment period?

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we -- it would seem a bit unclear. We

7 do have some information, but certainly the accused is not indicted for

8 the use of this type of weapon system. The information that we do have in

9 our possession indicates that this current witness was seeking to obtain

10 this type of weapon system after the indictment period with respect to

11 this accused.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

14 leave it up to your own jurisprudence and would like to remind you that

15 you have rejected the questions that the Prosecution wanted to ask in

16 relation to a witness who was under protective measures with relation to

17 air bombs. And we are here exactly in the same type of situation. And

18 the Prosecution could tell us which period afterwards are we talking

19 about, is it end of 1995 or perhaps are we talking beginning of 1995? I

20 don't know. And in any case, if the Prosecution has to prove the intent,

21 the alleged intent of General Galic a posteriori, which is the only thing

22 that they may have in their hands that can extend, because we are only

23 looking at what we have to look at and nothing else. And also for the

24 English booth, I think that I was badly interpreted. I have never said

25 "et cetera." Perhaps the English booth can come to me and tell me exactly

Page 16837

1 what I said what they didn't interpret. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will confer.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for your

5 information the witness that I was referring to earlier, that was Witness

6 AD.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, the reasons you have given for putting

8 these questions to the witness have not convinced the Chamber that this is

9 an issue that we should for that reason hear. So no questions in that

10 respect for this reason are allowed.

11 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

12 courtroom.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your

14 patience, Mr. DP17. Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the battle for Otes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Your brigade took a very active part in that operation; isn't that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When did this battle take place?

22 A. Sometime in early December 1992.

23 Q. What was the objective of your forces?

24 A. The objective of our forces was to respond to daily shooting to

25 the buildings that were dominant in the part. And I have to clarify here,

Page 16838

1 that the locality called Peyton where Serb civilians had their

2 accommodation and families, this locality is right next to the locality of

3 Otes. The locality Peyton was named after low ground floor, mostly

4 one-storey houses, from that series called the Peyton Place. And in Otes,

5 dominant buildings were high and from those buildings on a daily basis,

6 there was firing, shooting on to the Peyton locality. So the objective

7 was to neutralise Muslim forces that were active, that were shooting from

8 those buildings and were causing losses among the civilians on a daily

9 basis, practically.

10 Q. Witness, I suggest to you that the operation concerning Otes in

11 December 1992 was an SRK offensive seeking to push back the ABiH forces

12 towards Stup; is that correct?

13 A. It wasn't an offensive. You could more precisely call it as a

14 classical type of defence, protecting of lives of civilians who were being

15 fired on every day, every night from those buildings in relation to this

16 locality called Peyton.

17 Q. Your forces -- accepting your characterisation as a classical type

18 of defence, what your forces did was seize ground and push the ABiH back

19 towards Stup; isn't that right?

20 A. The consequence of that is what you're talking about.

21 Q. As a result of the actions taken by the SRK forces, the ABiH was

22 forced to withdraw with the result that its forces were in a salient with

23 Stup in the middle of the salient; isn't that correct?

24 A. You could say that.

25 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher we ask that the

Page 16839

1 witness be shown Exhibits 1312 and 1313.

2 Q. While that is being done, Witness, I have a few other questions.

3 When was the first time you were contacted by an investigator from the

4 Defence team of the accused?

5 A. Sometime in June this year. This was the first contact that I had

6 with Mrs. Prodanovic.

7 Q. Do you recall the substance of your discussion with Ms. Prodanovic

8 in June of 1990 -- or June of 2002?

9 A. Well, mostly this was in relation to whether I would be willing to

10 tell the truth about the war events in the area where I was and where I

11 moved about in relation to the defence of General Galic.

12 Q. Do you recall the first time when you spoke to either

13 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Defence lawyer whose are in the

14 courtroom today?

15 A. I remember, and unless I am mistaken, that was August the same

16 year, this year.

17 Q. The usher has just brought to you the two documents that you were

18 shown yesterday. Other than these two documents, did you at any time look

19 at other documents with the Defence counsel prior to your testimony here

20 in the courtroom yesterday?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I'd like you first, Witness, to look at Defence Exhibit 1312. I'd

23 ask you to look at the third paragraph under number 1. Do you see what I

24 am referring to, Witness? The paragraph immediately above number 2.

25 A. Below number 2, you mean?

Page 16840

1 Q. No, no, immediately -- you see the paragraph that is numbered

2 number "1" in effect has --

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. In effect that paragraph has three components to it, and the third

5 one states "The enemy has been mainly quiet during the proceeding three or

6 four days as far as shelling is concerned."

7 Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that is what that sentence or phrase says, according to this

10 document; is that right?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I heard in the

12 Serb booth in any case that they don't have the original of the document

13 and therefore they cannot follow. I don't know whether they can be

14 assisted.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, Mr. Mundis gave us a, at least he

16 told us that he was giving a translation of what is the first line or

17 lines of the last part of section 1. But Mr. Mundis, I have no doubt as

18 to your knowledge of the B/C/S language, but could we in one way or the

19 other get the full text of that paragraph so that the Chamber can

20 understand it. Did you prepare copies for the booth so that it could be

21 read?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, what I was intending on doing in light

23 of what we previously done or my understanding, is reading a couple of

24 sentences of this document to the witness and putting it to the witness in

25 that form.

Page 16841

1 JUDGE ORIE: But that suggests -- but then it would not be better

2 to ask the witness to read it in the original language so that immediately

3 we have a check on the correctness of your translation.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely, we can do that as well.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps then would you please invite the

6 witness to read slowly the part you are interested in. The only part I

7 can follow is three to 4.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, could it be put on the ELMO,

9 please.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if the text could be put on the ELMO so that

11 the --

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that yesterday no copy was

14 provided to the interpreters, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am not sure.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could it -- it is on the ELMO, I take it.

17 Could it be zoomed in on the last part of -- is that visible for the

18 interpreters?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, it is.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask the witness to slowly read where it

21 starts with at least the letters N-A-P-A-R-I-J-A, so that part, yes, could

22 you please read that very slowly. It could be -- yes, please leave it on

23 the ELMO. Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Over the last three or four days

25 the enemy was mainly calm as far as shelling is concerned. But today in

Page 16842

1 the course of the day, he showed his real face, and thus, in addition to

2 the material damage done, he put the lives of people in danger.

3 Fortunately, no one was killed and no one was seriously wounded."

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. DP17. Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

6 Q. Witness, can you please look down to paragraph 5 --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be moved on the ELMO so that paragraph 5 can

8 be read.


10 Q. Can you please read what is indicated in paragraph 5, please.

11 A. "The situation in the territory of the zone of responsibility.

12 The situation in the territory of the zone of responsibility is

13 satisfactory."

14 Q. And finally, Witness, on this document can you please read

15 paragraph 7 for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

16 A. "Unexpected events and losses. There were no unexpected events

17 and similarly no men were killed either."

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask now that Exhibit 1313 be placed on the ELMO.

20 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, that is D1313.

21 MR. MUNDIS: D1313. Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22 Q. Witness, can you please read the final, the last sentence of

23 paragraph 1.

24 A. The last sentence under item number 1, have I understood you

25 correctly?

Page 16843

1 Q. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The main targets were strategic and

4 civilian facilities. In addition to usual infantry fire and sniper fire,

5 handheld launchers and rifle-launched grenades, the enemy also fired from

6 Pams and anti-aircraft guns, Pats, from the Butmir area in the direction

7 of Kasindolska Street. Enemy fire was responded to in an adequate way and

8 enemy activity was reduced as a result."

9 Q. Witness, can you please read paragraph 3 for the benefit of the

10 Trial Chamber.

11 A. "Security situation. The security situation in the brigade is

12 fairly good and satisfactory. There are certain oscillations in certain

13 units where attempts have been made to endanger security."

14 Q. And finally, Witness, paragraph 5 of this document.

15 A. "The situation in the territory of the zone of responsibility.

16 Fairly good and without any changes when compared the previous report."

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]


19 Q. Thank you, Witness.

20 MR. MUNDIS: That document can be returned to the Registry.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yes.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to

23 intervene in order to clarify matters for everyone. When I see "Pam" and

24 "Pat" I am surprised not to mind Mats and other things because that

25 doesn't mean anything in the transcript. One should know that Pam means

Page 16844

1 an anti-aircraft machine-gun and a Pat means an anti-aircraft gun.

2 Because if we don't know this, we will just lose our bearings.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think clarification should not be given, but

4 elicited from a witness, if necessary. Mr. Mundis, before I ask you to

5 continue, may I just ask you how much time you would still need? Because

6 on the basis of my accounting you are approximately 20 minutes off from

7 two hours and 50 minutes. So if you say that you could finish within this

8 time, we might continue up to the moment that you finished and then have a

9 break. If not, the Chamber would like to have an explanation why you

10 would not finish in --

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, Mr. Ierace will, with your leave,

12 continue the cross-examination. He has just informed me that he has

13 approximately 10 minutes and that would then complete the Prosecution's

14 cross-examination of the witness.


16 MR. MUNDIS: So we can proceed or break now at your convenience,

17 Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I think we then rather continue until the

19 Prosecution has finished its cross-examination.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

22 Q. Sir, the brigade commander in 1993 and 1994, was that

23 Vladimir Radojcic?

24 JUDGE ORIE: You do not receive any translation or you are making

25 a gesture with your hands?

Page 16845

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wonder if

4 there is a problem which concerns the protective measures, something like

5 that, perhaps.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I do not think that this is protected information,

7 just a matter -- and if you have any such question, would you please

8 address me rather than counsel for the Defence.

9 It is not in my recollection that this is protected information.

10 I take it that perhaps names have appeared before. Yes, you may answer

11 the question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will then turn in private session.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted]

Page 16846













13 Pages 16846-16853 redacted private session













Page 16854

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.13 p.m.

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the

25 witness into the courtroom.

Page 16855

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Sir, in relation to the earlier document that I showed you, I want

5 you to assume that the reference to the date and time was the 11th of July

6 1994, time being 15.30, that is 111530B, JUL, 94, do you understand that?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you one question prior to

8 asking the witness to answer your question: When you first introduced

9 this document you asked it to be introduced under seal. So I wonder is it

10 because it is another part or --

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to the earlier witness,

12 that is so, but I don't see any reason for this particular document itself

13 with a different witness to be under seal.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please proceed. I interrupted and --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I seem to

16 recall that we had a break earlier, and that would have been a perfect

17 moment to give the document to the Defence. And now I have to read the

18 document now and tell about the contents of it to the General. I think

19 the minimum would have been to have been given to us the document earlier.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you immediately asked at the beginning

21 of the break to the Prosecution to give you a copy? If not, then if you

22 need additional time, it is fine. But it is always better to prevent

23 problems than to establish that problems have been caused.

24 Mr. Ierace, then please proceed in open session.


Page 16856

1 Q. Do you understand that reference to date and time as being 15.30

2 on the 11th of July 1994?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. I will now read you a passage from another document.

5 MR. IERACE: And I ask that the court usher place on the ELMO from

6 page 4 of Exhibit P2759, paragraph 24, so that it can be seen by everyone

7 in the courtroom.

8 Q. Sir, I want you to understand that this document is also, as was

9 the earlier one, a report by the UNMO BH Command, this time for the 12th

10 of July, 1994. Do you understand?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I will now read a passage from that document under the heading

13 "24 other important incidents patrols investigation. B,

14 command" - appears in the document C-O-M-D, "1st Battalion" - appears in

15 the document, B-N - "of BSA Ilidza Brigade" - appears B-D-E - "admitted

16 the sniping by BSA from BP859578 (house for blind people). He promised

17 that there would be no more sniping from that place."

18 Now, sir, that completes the reading of the passage from the

19 document, and you will note that the map reference in that passage is

20 identified as the house for blind people. Do you understand that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that is the same number, that is the same map reference as

23 appeared in the earlier document as to the suspected source of sniping

24 fire for the incident on the 11th of July, and the source -- I withdraw

25 that.

Page 16857

1 On the 11th of July, do you understand that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, did you know about this admission by your commander on the

4 11th of July, 1994, that there was sniping from the house for blind

5 people?

6 A. There could not have been any sniper activity because the sniper

7 did not exist. Mr. President, may I elaborate on this, considering that

8 if I have understood the translation from the first document that has been

9 submitted here? Because obviously there are certain things that are

10 unclear and I believe that you and the Trial Chamber will be able to

11 certainly not accept if I can explain, because there are certain things

12 that are so illogical. The gentleman is just asking me yes or no, and

13 objectively speaking, this document could have been written by anyone.

14 And so I am being asked to confirm yes or no.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise. I

17 didn't see that you were taking the floor. I just wanted to say in

18 relation to what was said. I apologise.

19 JUDGE ORIE: To a limited extent you are allowed to explain

20 yourself, but you are not allowed to comment on other evidence. But let

21 me perhaps, since I do feel that you want to -- that you want to explain

22 further things, let me first ask you: Was there any sniper or any sniper

23 arm or any weapon that could be used to fire at a distance on specific

24 targets used within the units that were under your command or under your

25 responsibility?

Page 16858

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no sniper weapons, but

2 there were weapons that could fire at a longer distance.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We will first -- if what about did you want to

4 explain us, because I don't want to cut you off. I don't want a long

5 story to tell us what happened in general in Sarajevo, but if there is

6 something from your personal knowledge, if you say, for example, "I knew

7 about certain events," it should be facts rather than comment. So if you

8 would indicate what facts you would like to explain about, please do so.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically, the first document as

10 well as the second document, in the first document if the translation is

11 correct, if I have had a correct translation, it says that one young man

12 had been injured, 17-year-old, near the Centre for the Blind. Now, I am

13 asking the Prosecution if that is the translation.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Because what

15 the document read to you said is that a young person of 17 years injured

16 by sniping at -- and then the position is given -- near the house for

17 blind people. I do understand this to be that he was injured by sniping,

18 sniping originating from a place near, and that is the difference with

19 what Mr. Ierace told you, he said it was at, but here it says near.

20 Whether in other documents the same position is referred to as "at." So

21 it is not -- at least I do not understand this document to say that the

22 person injured was "near" to the house of the blind people. Does that

23 clarify something for you?

24 I noticed, as a matter of fact, since we had a provisional

25 translation that the translation given by the booth was not literally the

Page 16859

1 same, and although I cannot know exactly what the small differences are,

2 not exactly the same words in the same order were used. Is there any

3 other thing? That's perhaps for your clarification. Is there anything

4 else you would like to explain, but now on the basis of what I just told

5 you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, again, accepting your

7 interpretation is that in this situation, this was the Home for the Blind

8 that the Defence mentions and that the enemy side that is where the

9 building you probably all know -- there is that building -- say that the

10 OPCW is that building on the enemy side. They say someone is writing a

11 report saying that somebody had fired. It is not logical for me, it is

12 not saying how this person has been injured, what kind of an injury that

13 is. It seems to be a very arbitrary way that someone has approached this

14 way of writing.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you. You are commenting on what is in

16 this document. The document came up in cross-examination --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how I understand it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the document came up in cross-examination,

19 if there is any need to put further questions to you in this respect, I

20 take it that the Defence will do so in re-examination. So if the Defence

21 thinks that further clarification is needed, they will certainly ask you

22 for it.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

25 what the Prosecution proffered earlier is not exact, because we were told

Page 16860

1 on page 67, line 17, that a commander admitted something on the 11th of

2 July 1994, and I'd like Mr. Ierace to tell us where does he have this

3 information from, exactly.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Ierace was referring to part of the text.

5 But, Mr. Ierace, is it about the date on which he admitted it or on

6 whether he admitted it?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] According to the English

8 transcript that I saw earlier, it seems that the Prosecution said that

9 this commander admitted something on the 11th of July 1994, such-and-such

10 a thing. Now, I am asking the Prosecution where do they have this

11 information from.

12 JUDGE ORIE: But it is mainly the date on which the admission was

13 made that is bothering you or is it the admission itself?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is about the date.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I stand corrected. It is the 12th of

17 July, not the 11th of July, 1994. That is apparent from the first page of

18 the report. The report is dated the 13th of July, and the subject matter

19 is indicated as in part, "period covered" from the 12th of July at

20 effectively --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Does that solve the problem? Yes, it solves the

22 problem, Mr. Ierace. Please proceed.


24 Q. Now, did you know about this admission by your commander, that

25 there was sniping from the House for Blind People?

Page 16861

1 A. No, I did not, and I personally doubt what has been written here.

2 Q. You also said that during your explanation, you said that:

3 "There could not have been any sniper activity because the sniper did not

4 exist." Over a distance of approximately 440 metres, one would not need a

5 professional sniper to successfully target someone, would you?

6 A. My experience doesn't or wouldn't confirm what you are saying. It

7 is hard in general to believe that anyone can use an ordinary rifle at a

8 distance of 440 metres and hit in this way.

9 Q. Sir, a Kalashnikov would easily be able to hit a target, someone

10 using a Kalashnikov who understood how to use that weapon at 440 --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President, I

12 object. Technical question. Kalashnikov is just a manufacturer. There

13 is a famous AK-47. There are many many different types of Kalashnikovs --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the objection is that Kalashnikov is a

15 make rather than a type of rifle. Would you please specify.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I think it also clearly refers

17 to an AK-47 but I am happy to rephrase to save time.

18 Q. Sir, one could successfully target someone at 440 metres without a

19 professional sniper weapon and without professional sniper training, I

20 suggest to you.

21 A. I deny this. I don't have such experiences. If we would have had

22 such good sharpshooters that would have been very lucky. Obviously I am

23 speaking about enemy soldiers. If they were able to shoot like this, that

24 is quite a distance, and it is, in even normal circumstances, hard to get

25 such results.

Page 16862

1 JUDGE ORIE: You answered the question, please, Mr. Ierace --

2 MR. IERACE: That completes cross-examination.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Piletta-Zanin is there any need to

4 re-examine the witness?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am afraid so,

6 Mr. President.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. You were quoted

9 earlier, you were given map references. And the first question is: Did

10 you know exactly to which these map references correspond; yes or no?

11 A. What has been told to me by the Prosecutor, I understand that.

12 Q. I'd like you to focus on the questions, please. For instance, can

13 you tell us where is exactly, exactly elevation point BP86358?

14 A. BP863, I understood that that was the home for the blind.

15 Q. No, your knowledge, sir. When I read these numbers to you, do you

16 know where the elevation point is --

17 A. I cannot --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please slow down. Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, there has been no evidence that these

21 numbers refer to elevation points.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that Mr. Piletta-Zanin understood by

23 "elevation points," points on the map; is that correct? Yes.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I never spoke about elevation

25 points.

Page 16863

1 JUDGE ORIE: It must be a translation problem because it appears

2 in English as "elevation points."

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

5 Q. Can you tell me what the reference point is BP88375, yes or no?

6 A. No.

7 Q. BP159?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. BP868373?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Here, Mr. President, we could

13 say, et cetera.

14 Q. And now to come back to the first question: You did not know

15 where this person of 17 years of age was wounded, did you?

16 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, leading.


18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase.

19 Q. On the basis of the references that you were given, Witness, were

20 you able to know where exactly this 17-year-old was wounded; yes or no?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Very well. Let us imagine now, theoretically speaking, that a

23 shot went off from the area near, near, and I am saying "near" the home

24 for the blind. What is located opposite this institute on the other side

25 of the line?

Page 16864

1 A. Buildings of Vojnicko Polje with 7, 8, 9, 10-storey buildings.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Who was located in these buildings, in these

3 facilities at the time?

4 A. Only Muslim soldiers. Muslim soldiers, Muslim Army.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Therefore, if this reference should

6 correspond to an area, corresponding to the area that you've indicated,

7 would it have been a probability that there were civilians there?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, leading.


10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's -- "probabilities" and facts are

12 different things, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. At least the Chamber tries to make a

13 distinction between the two.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase.

15 Q. Therefore, Witness, your soldiers - that would be logically - they

16 would expect in this area only other soldiers; is that correct?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That also calls for

18 speculation.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it is leading as well.

20 Mr. -- Is there -- yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 Q. I'd like to come back, Witness, to what we have referred to as

25 being standing orders. These are orders that were given by General Galic.

Page 16865

1 Did you -- were you personally present on one or more occasions in

2 situations where General Galic formulated such orders not to open fire in

3 an indiscriminate way on civilians; yes or no?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell this Chamber if you were

6 alone or you were accompanied by other people?

7 A. There were other people present as well.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Do you recall the names of those people who

9 accompanied you at that meeting where such orders were reiterated,

10 although they were standing orders?

11 A. If you'll allow me, I would give you the posts of these persons,

12 functions of these persons. That was the brigade commander, chief of

13 artillery, chief of engineering section, most of these meetings were

14 attended by battalion commanders, logistics deputy ask so on.

15 Q. Thank you very much. I will stop you here. Since you are talking

16 about the brigade commanders, et cetera, could we now assume that these

17 brigade commanders were supposed to forward this order on to their own

18 commander; yes or no?

19 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That appears to be a

20 mischaracterisation of the evidence, comparing line 4 of page 76.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It is not quite clear --

22 MR. MUNDIS: Excuse me, Judge?

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Do you mean the plural?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Indeed. It seems to be an expansion of the scope of

25 the witness's previous answer.

Page 16866

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it is about the word "commander"

2 instead of "commanders."

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. If I have said it in

4 plural, I withdraw the "s." I will rephrase my question, in a sense.

5 Q. Witness, that this order was given while you were present to one

6 of the brigade commanders, could we then assume that it was up to this

7 commander to forward this order on to -- up through the chain of command

8 down to the other commanders; yes or no?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know if this commander had

11 done this; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I would now like to ask you some other

14 questions. You spoke of some visits carried out by General Galic. Do you

15 know if when General Galic carried out these visits, he also visited not

16 just the line itself but perhaps also other facilities, and if so, which

17 ones?

18 A. I know exactly that he also visited the hospital, the injured,

19 that he visited the rear or the logistics which means other facilities,

20 not just the front line.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, to a Prosecution question you said

22 that if the orders were violated you would have known about this. Do you

23 remember that you said that?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to understand that I am asking you a

Page 16867

1 purely theoretical question, bearing in mind the chain of command the and

2 the military hierarchy, and the distance that exists between, for

3 instance, a private, an ordinary soldier and a corps commander, if there

4 was a violation committed, for instance, the one that you yourself had

5 mentioned in the beginning in the afternoon, that is, there was alcohol

6 trafficking, trafficking in general, et cetera. If such a violation had

7 occurred, do you think that this would have -- would have arrived to the

8 level of General Galic?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before you answer that question, I didn't follow you

10 in French, so I don't know whether there is any problem in translation.

11 In the translation your question reads: "If such a violation had

12 occurred" -- no let he just see that. No, it's in the previous question.

13 The question is: "You said that if the orders were violated you would

14 have known about this. Do you remember that you said that?"

15 You then were not representing the text as spoken by the witness

16 on page 55, line 2 where he said "I should have been aware of it" which is

17 different. Therefore, I would like to clarify this first.

18 You confirmed that in one of your previous answers you said that

19 you would have known if such a violation of an order would have occurred.

20 As we read it in your answer to that question it says that you should have

21 known it. What did you intend to say? That you should have known it or

22 that you would have known it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think I would have known it

24 for sure.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

Page 16868

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that wasn't my

2 question, but I will reformulate it. My question was --

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... That I felt --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you --

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- That I needed. Please proceed.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Witness, if, and this is a hypothesis, similar violations had

8 occurred, if men, troops that committed such violations, and bearing in

9 mind the distance in the military hierarchy between the soldier and his

10 commander, do you think that the corps commander would have been informed

11 of such a violation; yes or no?

12 A. Well, you've asked me this in a hypothetical way. If it had to do

13 with half a litre of alcohol, it would have been senseless to inform the

14 commander of this because it is not important.

15 Q. Very well, I will stop you there because of time, Witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, before you continue, it is a

17 quarter to 7.00. I wonder whether we could finish today. You certainly

18 have looked at the clock as well. How much time would you still need?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I only have another two

20 questions, Mr. President. I will be very brief. I will allow myself to

21 be leading occasionally.

22 Q. Witness, could you confirm, could you say yes or no, whether

23 mortars, 82-millimetre and 120-millimetre mortars are mobile, the ones you

24 mentioned in Nedzarici, are they mobile; yes or no?

25 A. Well, they are --

Page 16869

1 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please answer the question.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will withdraw that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: There is no need to answer the question.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw that question to

6 save time.

7 Q. Witness, you were questioned about the battle, the so-called Otes

8 battle, do you remember that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. What can you tell us about this battle at Otes in

11 relation to what happened at the time in Mount Igman, can you tell us

12 anything about this?

13 A. Well, I know from reliable sources -- well, there are two things I

14 will say. At the time they used heavy artillery from Mount Igman to fire

15 at our positions and to fire at Ilidza. That was the Muslim artillery.

16 And I also know what was happening, what I know is that a lot of my

17 relatives from that concentration camp, from the Silos in Tarcin, they

18 were taken to Igman and they were maltreated, beaten up, and some of them

19 were even killed then. Those are two things that I am aware of in

20 relation to Igman at that time. So -- but I don't know what you are

21 thinking of specifically.

22 Q. I am not thinking of anything in particular.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That was my last question.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer.

Page 16870

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Although we regret that we have to ask you to come

3 back next Friday, we nevertheless have to do it. The questions the Judges

4 will put to you certainly take more than ten minutes, and since the -- we

5 cannot ask the interpreters to wait such a long time. It might even be in

6 25 minutes, and that would bring us to a time which is not what we can ask

7 from those who assist us, apart from all the technical problems it would

8 cause.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President,

11 unfortunately I won't be able to be here on Friday. I regret this. But

12 please forgive me. If we could do this, if we could start with the Trial

13 Chamber's questions, this is the Defence's request, that would make it

14 possible for us to work during the interval and I would be grateful for

15 this.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I would certainly have preferred to finish today, but

17 the questions will take so much time that if we start it we will not be

18 able to complete it. So unfortunately, if you are absent, then lead

19 counsel will have to listen carefully and see whether the questions of the

20 Chamber will cause the Defence to ask to put further questions to the

21 witness. But I think it would be not a good idea to start at this very

22 moment.

23 So we will have to ask you to come back next Friday, but it is

24 certain that we will then finish, Mr. DP17. I again have to instruct you

25 not to speak with anyone about your testimony in this court until the last

Page 16871

1 questions have been put to you. I apologise because I know that there is

2 one day in between which is a holiday, and we are not sitting. I am aware

3 of the inconvenience that it causes to you.

4 We will adjourn until next Friday quarter past 2.00, same

5 courtroom.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

7 6.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

8 the 6th day of December, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.