Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16963

1 Monday, 9 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar, good morning to everyone

9 in and around the courtroom. The Chamber would like to put a few

10 questions to the next witness in closed session before giving a decision

11 on the protective measures sought, so we will first turn into private

12 session -- closed session and then I will ask Madam Usher to escort the

13 witness into the courtroom.

14 [Closed session]

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7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, may I ask you to escort the witness into

9 the courtroom.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. DP30, because that's how we will call you

12 from now on since a decision has been taken granting protective measures

13 in respect of you. Before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of

14 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

15 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text

16 of this solemn declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher.

17 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. DP30. Please be seated.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

25 Defence. Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 16971

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP30, good morning.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Before I start asking you question I am going to show you a

6 document and you can confirm to us whether the information that has been

7 included on this sheet of paper is correct.

8 A. The information is correct.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, although we have

11 heard a lot of information about Mr. DP30, perhaps we could just go very

12 briefly into closed session in order to get certain other information

13 about his background.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will turn into private session.

15 Ms. Pilipovic what we heard before was information in respect of a

16 decision on protective measures and not part of the evidence. It has not

17 been given under a solemn declaration. So I think it would be necessary

18 to repeat such issues if -- for evidentiary reasons.

19 [Private session]

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Page 16973

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13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. DP30, you told us that your family left Sarajevo. Can you

17 tell us whether there were any particular reasons for which your family

18 was treated in the way it was?

19 A. Well, I have already said that they knew -- everyone knew that I

20 worked in Pale. So that the propaganda conducted towards the JNA

21 members - and my Muslim colleagues were astounded by it - this was

22 directed to me, too. I was called to the barracks, I was called up and

23 they said, "you've got nothing to do here, you are part of the Serbian and

24 Chetnik Army."

25 Q. Mr. DP30, thank you. I want to tell you that we will be talking

Page 16974

1 about the period September 1992 - August 1994. Were you militarily

2 engaged during that period?

3 A. Yes, I was militarily engaged during that period. I was

4 commander of the warehouse of ammunition and materiel and equipment in

5 Koran and at Pale. It was within the 27th Logistics Base of the Army of

6 Republika Srpska.

7 Q. Mr. DP30, you say you were the commander of the warehouse of

8 ammunition weapons at Koran. Can you tell us when the 27th Logistics Base

9 was formed?

10 A. As far as I can remember, it was formed immediately following

11 departure of the JNA from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina because that

12 was a short period during which the JNA withdrew with its equipment and

13 its units, and the few of us who remained there were -- in fact, I had no

14 where else to go anymore because I couldn't go to Croatia, so I stayed

15 where I had work and assumed the duties that all those who were fit for

16 military service had. And the command at the beginning, it remained

17 blocked in the Marshal Tito Barracks in Sarajevo.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP30, when you say that your command was captured

19 in the Marshal Tito Barracks, can you tell us whether you went to your

20 command?

21 A. Yes, of course I did. I went to the command, to meetings, that

22 was usually once a week.

23 Q. Can you tell us when you went for the meeting for the last time in

24 the command?

25 A. Well, the last time I was at a meeting in the command was toward

Page 16975

1 the end of March, and after that I didn't go again. We only had a

2 telephone line which we had, as far as I can remember, until the end of

3 April.

4 Q. When you say that your command remained in the barracks and that

5 for a short period of time it was captured, can you tell us when your

6 command, that is to say the people who worked in the command, when did

7 they leave the command, do you know anything about this?

8 A. As far as I can remember, the command left in the first half of

9 June, around the first half of June, together with the cadets and the

10 officers who were there.

11 Q. Mr. DP30, when you say that your command was there and you've just

12 mentioned cadets, too, cadets from the school centre of the JNA, do you

13 personally know whether there was any ammunition in the Marshal Tito

14 Barracks, whether there were any weapons there and do you know what

15 happened to those weapons after the members of the school centre and of

16 your command left the barracks?

17 A. Well, there was an infantry school centre there for training NCOs

18 and officers from the infantry, that was for the entire JNA. And as far

19 as I can remember there was a school for quartermaster officers and

20 noncommissioned officers. And as in all training centres, there were all

21 sorts of weapons, especially infantry weapons, and then there were some

22 tanks there. I think they were T-55 tanks, because I passed by them.

23 There were three or five of them. I can't give you the exact number.

24 Then there were armoured personnel carriers for the infantry, OTM-60 and

25 combat vehicles for the infantry, BB-5 M-80, that was the mark, and then

Page 16976

1 there were four-wheel drives, freight vehicles, that's what was parked by

2 the garages, the playground and the workshop.

3 Q. Do you know personally know, after the withdrawal of the command

4 and the schools, what happened to those weapons, were they withdrawn too

5 or do you know anything else about this?

6 A. Since these men left or they passed through Pale, and the captured

7 command, the members of the command passed through my barracks, so they

8 weren't able to take anything apart from their personal weapons and

9 equipment with them. Everything else remained there.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP30, when you say that from September 1992 to

11 August 1994, that's the period that we are dealing with you said that you

12 were the commander of ammunition of the 27th Logistics Base, can you tell

13 us out of which warehouses was the 27th Logistics Base formed? According

14 to your knowledge, what entered into the 27th Logistics Base?

15 A. Well the 27th Logistics Base consisted of those warehouses which

16 remained in Serbian territory, or rather it was the way that the people

17 had divided up from the first barricades in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo.

18 So my warehouse remained there. And then as far as I can remember, the

19 Rudo and Visegrad warehouses, the Vardiste warehouse, Ilijas, Semizovac,

20 Butile and Hadzici.

21 Q. Mr. DP30, you said that division was made as far as I have

22 understood you when the barricades were set up in Sarajevo, and the

23 surrounding area, can you tell us whether you know whether they were

24 warehouses which were not on the Serbian side, as you say?

25 A. Yes. Those -- there were the warehouses which on the basis of

Page 16977

1 that division -- because of that division remained on the other side.

2 That was the warehouse in Visoko. I don't know how much equipment

3 remained there. Then there was Krupanjska Rijeka near Hadzici, Ljuta near

4 Konjic and Usti Kolina in the vicinity of Gorazde. And I apologise, there

5 was also the Renovica warehouse from August 1992 when the Muslim forces

6 took that warehouse.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague suggests

8 that something is missing in the transcript. The exact words that the

9 witness said with regard to certain places are missing in the transcript.

10 I think he said Ljuta near Konjic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. DP30, could you please repeat the names of the warehouses you

13 have mentioned and that you said remained on the Muslim side. Could you

14 say the names slowly.

15 A. The Visoko warehouse, then Krupanjska Rijeka warehouse between

16 Hadzici and Pazarici, Ljuta near Konjic, Usti Kolina, that is close to

17 Gorazde, and Renovica from the end of August 1992.

18 Q. Mr. DP30, you said Renovica from August 1992. Can you tell us

19 what area the Renovica warehouse was located in?

20 A. The Renovica warehouse was about 30 kilometres from Pale in the

21 direction of Gorazde. At the beginning of the war, the Serbian forces

22 held it and it was also my warehouse branch, it was under my command.

23 However, since there were constant threats, there was constant danger, the

24 Muslim forces kept attacking and the soldiers and reserves could have been

25 captured, so we took out some of the reserve and the Muslim forces

Page 16978

1 attacked, and that part was surrendered by the Serbian forces.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP30. When you said -- when you mentioned these

3 warehouses, you mentioned warehouses of the former JNA in the area of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 A. Yes. Those were the warehouses of the JNA which were part of the

6 744 Logistics Base which was the base of the JNA.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP30, do you personally know whether in the area

8 of the town of Sarajevo, do you know whether there were any similar

9 warehouses there?

10 A. The Territorial Defence had warehouses too. Part of the

11 warehouses of the Territorial Defence were in barracks, and there was a

12 big warehouse, the Faletici warehouse which is in the north-eastern part

13 of Sarajevo, immediately next to the periphery, that was a warehouse of

14 the Territorial Defence, that is to say, of the town headquarters of

15 Sarajevo. I know about that because when I was serving in Zenica, I had

16 reserve battalion in that warehouse for nuclear, biological and chemical

17 defence. So I often entered that warehouse, I often went into it.

18 Q. Mr. DP30, you say that you often went into that warehouse. Can

19 you tell us whether you saw any weapons in that warehouse and if so of

20 what kind, if you saw any weapons there?

21 A. Well, the Territorial Defence mostly formed light infantry

22 brigades, so the weapons and the equipment were the weapons and equipment

23 for a light infantry brigade on the whole. On the whole, this was

24 infantry weapons, mortars, rifles, automatic weapons, 60, 82-millimetre

25 and 120-millimetre mortars. Part of the weapons for anti-aircraft defence

Page 16979

1 were included there. There were 12.7 millimetre machine-guns, field guns,

2 20 through 1 and 20 through 3 there were anti-armour guided missiles,

3 9-K11 recoilless field guns, 82-millimetres [Realtime transcript read in

4 error "82-millimetre metres"], communication equipment, part of the

5 vehicles, and on the whole that's it.

6 Q. Mr. DP30, you've just mentioned the various kinds of weapons that

7 were based in the Faletici warehouse and that was part of the Territorial

8 Defence of the town of Sarajevo. Can you tell us how these weapons were

9 stored? Did you see this?

10 A. Well, the weapons in accordance with the rules of the JNA which

11 were applied by the Territorial Defence, all the weapons that were stored

12 there had visible Territorial Defence markings, a four-figure number, and

13 then it said whether it was platoon, a company, a detachment. Everything

14 had been marked, each piece of equipment, and similarly lorries, there

15 were stickers on the window with the Territorial Defence sign, and it said

16 how long the equipment would be valid. Every piece of equipment was

17 marked in this manner.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the sake of

19 the transcript, line 5 of the current page, perhaps we could say what

20 weapon is concerned against because "82-millimetre metre" doesn't mean

21 much to me.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP30, when you told about the weapons in the

23 Faletici warehouse, you spoke about 9K-11 recoilless field guns and then

24 you mentioned 82-millimetre what? Because in English it appears not to be

25 clear. Could you please repeat that answer in this respect?

Page 16980

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. When I mentioned

2 mortars, I mentioned 60-millimetre mortars, 82-millimetre mortars and

3 120-millimetre mortars. And then when I mentioned a recoilless

4 82-millimetre field gun and the anti-armoured guided missiles, so-called

5 Maljutkas, 9 through 11.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, does this sufficiently clarify the issue?

7 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. DP30, did you personally know, we are talking about the year

10 1992, did you know under whose control the Territorial Defence warehouse

11 in Faletici was?

12 A. In 1992, the Faletici warehouse was under the JNA, or rather the

13 JNA held guard there, stood guard there. I don't know how many soldiers

14 there were as part of the guard, but I don't think there were many. These

15 were mostly soldiers from the Lukavica Barracks, as far as I know.

16 Q. Can you tell us whether throughout the period of 1992 they guarded

17 that warehouse?

18 A. No, that was towards the beginning of May or the end of April and

19 the Territorial Defence or rather the people led by the Territorial

20 Defence entered that warehouse. The Muslims forces entered on one side

21 and the Serbian on the other and those weapons were taken out and all the

22 equipment, even the vehicles, everything that was there, I think that the

23 Serbian side got most of the equipment.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP30, you said that you were the chief, the

25 commander of the warehouse and ammunition in Koran, can you tell us, in

Page 16981

1 the 27th Logistics Base, did any staff remain there? Did any personnel

2 remain there who worked before the conflict broke out in the territory of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the town of Sarajevo?

4 A. In my warehouse mostly soldiers who were doing their military

5 service in Bosnia-Herzegovina remained. Those were mostly Serbian men,

6 Serbian soldiers. Some of them were Muslims who, in spite of

7 Alija Izetbegovic's appeal not to respond to the JNA call-up, neither as

8 active or reserve forces, certain individuals did respond, individuals who

9 were in favour of Yugoslavia, and there was some Croats, but a smaller

10 number. So the warehouse was mostly staffed by Serbs. Over 90 per cent

11 were Serbs and all the others were of other nationality. That was at the

12 beginning.

13 Q. When you say that that was at the beginning, could you be a little

14 more precise and tell us which period you are referring to, the period

15 during which there were Serbs and Muslims and Croats?

16 A. Well, that was up until about the beginning of July. I know that

17 I had another three Muslim soldiers who were doing their military service

18 and I then sent them to Belgrade in a bus. I know that I suggested that

19 they shouldn't return to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Later, a

20 sergeant contacted me from the territory of Serbia.

21 Q. Sir, are you telling us that in your 27th Logistics Base as far as

22 the men are concerned, Serbs and Croats remained?

23 A. Mostly Serbs and a few Croats who were there and who lived in the

24 territory of the municipality of Pale because that is in the vicinity.

25 Q. Mr. DP30, in 1992, September, during the period of September 1992,

Page 16982

1 August 1994, can you tell us whether your warehouse provided units of the

2 Sarajevo Romanija Corps with ammunition?

3 A. Yes, they did.

4 Q. Can you tell us were you under the direct command of the

5 Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

6 A. No. I was not under the direct command. It was through my

7 command I was the commander of the logistics base and their base was in

8 Sokolac. I was under the command of the Main Staff, that is, my base was

9 under the command of the Main Staff.

10 Q. Since you told us that you supplied the SRK units with ammunition,

11 can you tell us what was the procedure of supplying ammunition to the SRK

12 units? Was there a person representing the SRK that you contacted, with

13 whom you communicated or was there another way that you supplied the

14 ammunition to the units of the SRK?

15 A. Well, the procedure is well known which -- and it is regulated by

16 the rules before as in the JNA and then the Army of Republika Srpska took

17 it over -- according to the rules of supply and maintenance of technical

18 equipment. So the request of the corps go to the corps, the technical

19 department gathers them, and then send them directly to the Main Staff.

20 Q. Mr. DP30, I apologise. You will continue. Can you just explain,

21 I think you said that on the level of the SRK there was also a technical

22 department. Did I understand you correctly?

23 A. Yes, yes, of course. There were chiefs of services with their

24 assistants and they looked after the logistics support to the corps units.

25 Q. Can you tell us who was the chief of the technical section for the

Page 16983

1 Sarajevo Romanija Corps when you were the commander of the warehouse of

2 the 27th Logistics Base?

3 A. Where I was the commander of the warehouse of the 27th Logistics

4 Base, I know that this was Milivoje Solar who was the chief. He was

5 lieutenant-colonel of the technical corps, the technical apartment. He

6 was the chief of the technical department.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP30, can you tell us about the request of the

8 corps seeking ammunition, requesting ammunition who were they supplied to?

9 A. The request of the corps asking requesting for ammunition were to

10 the main corps of the Republika Srpska Army and then the main staff would

11 approve the requested quantities of ammunition depending on the

12 possibilities and then by return, they would respond by contacting the

13 command of the logistics base, and the basis of that, the chief of the

14 technical service would then give Scheduling Order which I would then

15 receive at the warehouse and that's how I issued ammunition to the

16 brigades, depending on the Scheduling Order, that's how I would issue

17 ammunition.

18 Q. Mr. DP30 can you tell us whether there were situations when

19 following the reception of the Scheduling Order for the ammunition for the

20 brigades, did you have personal authorisation to change this request?

21 A. No, I was not able to do it, nor was I authorised to do this

22 because the reports about the supplying of ammunition we then had to pass

23 on to the commander of logistics base and then to the Main Staff, and they

24 were the one who were looking after the ammunition quantities.

25 Q. Following the request for ammunition, a certain amount of

Page 16984

1 ammunition would be approved that you were authorised to issue to the

2 brigades. Can you tell us who would then take over this ammunition that

3 was approved, according to the request?

4 A. Since my warehouse had only about 30 per cent of manpower levels

5 filled and that's how much the transport vehicles were also filled up, the

6 units came to take ammunition themselves. That was how it worked. And

7 sometimes we would use our own transport vehicles to take the ammunition,

8 but mostly that didn't happen so often. So there was also this combined

9 system of supply.

10 Q. When you say that sometimes you used your own transport vehicles

11 to supply the ammunition, can you tell us the reason why is it that you

12 were able to sometimes do it? Was this something that you did as a matter

13 of course or were there other reasons that you wouldn't be able to

14 transport the ammunition?

15 A. I already said that I didn't have many vehicles, many means of

16 transport in relation to the formation levels, the manpower levels, that

17 was one reason. The second reason was that the main duty of my warehouse

18 was to take out the ammunition produced at the Pretis factory, and my duty

19 was to first take this ammunition to my warehouse, and then report to the

20 Main Staff through my base command in order to supply and distribute this

21 ammunition to other bases.

22 Q. Mr. DP30, when you told us that the ammunition was produced at the

23 Pretis factory and that you had the obligation to, as you say, take out

24 this ammunition can you tell us what kind of ammunition was produced at

25 Pretis?

Page 16985

1 A. Yes, I can. Mostly as I remember, first of all, this was the

2 ammunition for mortars, that is shells of 60, 82, and 120-millimetre

3 calibres. There was artillery ammunition for Howitzers, 105 millimeters,

4 122 millimeters, and there were two kinds, D-30, and there was another

5 M-38 type. Then for Howitzer, 155 millimetre, then there was possibly

6 ammunition for antitank field guns, 106 millimetre, 110 millimetres, T-12,

7 100 millimetre tanks, then grenades for multiple rocket launchers, or

8 rockets for multiple rocket launchers, and I think for recoilless guns.

9 Q. Mr. DP30, you have just listed the type of ammunition, the types

10 of ammunition that was produced, and you say that this was the production

11 at Pretis factory. Can you tell us whether this ammunition in this way

12 that you have identified it, was this marked?

13 A. Yes. The ammunition has to be marked both in peace and at war,

14 and it is very important so that there is no switch that can be made. So

15 that instead of, say, signaling equipment, signaling mines or smoke

16 grenades, then combat ammunition is issued. So the same way as it was

17 marked in JNA, that's how it was marked here, that is with in Cyrillic

18 characters.

19 Q. Thank you. When you are telling us about the ammunition

20 production, you are telling us about the period 1992, 1994, can you tell

21 us what was the capacity, how much of this ammunition was produced?

22 A. Well, it was very much reduced and this depended on several

23 factors. First of all, in this factory only Serbs remained to work in

24 this factory. And before the war, this ammunition was produced for the

25 supplies to the entire JNA, and also went abroad, particularly to the

Page 16986

1 nonaligned companies.

2 Q. Mr. DP30, when you are telling us about the ammunition that was

3 produced at the time at the Pretis factory, and which arrived to your

4 27th Logistics Base, can you tell us whether all of this ammunition was

5 to be used by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

6 A. I think I may have already spoken about this. The ammunition that

7 was produced there and the main obligation was for it to come to my

8 warehouse, then depending on the Scheduling Order of the Main Staff, it

9 was distributed to the other three bases, that is, the base that was in

10 Banja Luka. I think they were the 14th Logistics Base. Then there was

11 the base in Bijeljina, I think that was the 35th Logistics Base, and then

12 the base in Bileca. I think that was the 30th Logistics Base.

13 Q. Mr. DP30, are you tell us that this production was meant for the

14 entire Army of Republika Srpska?

15 A. Yes, that's where it was produced, the ammunition, as I listed it,

16 for the entire army for Republika Srpska.

17 Q. Mr. DP30, can you tell us, according to military rules, your base,

18 was it supposed to fall under the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

19 A. Yes, according to army rules, every corps has to have its own

20 logistics base from which they have supply for their units, but in this

21 case this was not so, according to the ruling or the decision of the Main

22 Staff.

23 Q. Are you telling us that your base supplied also other corps or

24 units in the territory of the Republika Srpska Army?

25 A. I already said about the artillery ammunition, that it went to all

Page 16987

1 the other bases, what was produced in Pretis, but as far as my base is

2 concerned, I believe that it was from November 1992 that the newly formed

3 Drina Corps [Realtime transcript read in error "unit corps"] also depended

4 on my base. So I think that was also one of the reasons why the Main

5 Staff decided that this base would be directly under their command, under

6 its command, the command of the Main Staff.

7 Q. Mr. DP30, can you tell us whether your warehouse was only

8 warehouse for ammunition?

9 A. My warehouse wasn't just ammunition warehouse because it was

10 slightly further away from the first front lines. There were other means

11 that were also there, that is quartermasters' equipment, that is for

12 kitchens and so on. Everything else that an army needs. There were also

13 means, other kinds of equipment, engines, then also some veterinary

14 equipment, and some medical supplies, a smaller part of medical supplies.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague is

17 saying that the transcript -- in the transcript there is not been entered

18 properly, I believe that is on page 25, line 5, that not the correct

19 formulation for a Drina corps had been entered in the transcript

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it is my recollection that the newly established

21 Drina corps was also served by the logistics base. Please proceed,

22 Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. DP30, now that you have listed for us what military equipment

25 and other reserves of materiel were kept in your warehouse, can you tell

Page 16988

1 us considering that you worked there all the time and you were the person

2 who was in charge of issuing ammunition, can you tell us about the

3 ammunition, the use of ammunition from your warehouse or possibly, can you

4 tell us about ammunition that was stored in your warehouse, first of all,

5 so that you can then answer about the use of which ammunition.

6 So, first of all, can you tell us what type of ammunition did you

7 have in your warehouse?

8 A. I will try, if I can remember everything. Mostly in my warehouse

9 there were all kinds of infantry ammunition, that is from pistols, 7.62,

10 7.55. Then for rifles, light machine-guns, automatic rifles, 7.62

11 millimeters, domestic production, 7.9 millimeters. Then there was

12 ammunition for AA -- anti-aircraft machine-guns, Browning guns, 12.7, and

13 then 14.5 millimeters. Then for Praga, 30 millimeters. Then the

14 ammunition that I have already mentioned, that is, artillery ammunition

15 manufactured at Pretis. Then also antitank guided rockets, 9K-11. Then

16 there was Strela 2M anti-aircraft. Then for recoilless guns,

17 82-millimetre. Then ammunition for tanks. Mostly I already mentioned the

18 anti-infantry -- the anti-personnel, anti-aircraft and for artillery

19 support, that's the ammunition that was kept there.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP30, can you tell us what was the use of this

21 ammunition, and we are speaking about the period between 1992 through to

22 1994? Can you personally answer?

23 A. Yes. According to my estimate, in the first six months I cannot

24 say that this has all been used, it's all been issued, I was the one who

25 was issuing. I don't know what the use was. But for the first six

Page 16989

1 months, there were -- there was more issuing compared the period following

2 that one, while I was the commander of the warehouse and I was the

3 commander until January of 1994. So after that first period it was

4 reduced, significantly reduced.

5 Q. When you say that in the first six months there was more issuing

6 of ammunition, more ammunition was issued, can you tell us whether you

7 personally have the knowledge why in this first six months, in which

8 period is that in 1992, which six months in 1992 are we talking about?

9 A. In that period in the first six months that's when mostly the

10 brigades were formed as part of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. So the issue

11 influenced directly the establishment of the reserves of these brigades

12 which were supposed to be established, according to the military rules.

13 And mostly for that reason that the issuing was increased.

14 Q. You just told us that the issuing was in connection with the

15 establishment of brigades which became part of the

16 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. Do you personally know, considering your answer,

17 what personnel were members of these brigades, and do you know which

18 brigades are they in those first six months, as you say?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, before the witness answers this

20 question, one of the previous questions put to you has not been answered

21 yet. The six month, which six month are you talking about? The first six

22 months starting when, exactly?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, thank you, Your Honour.

24 Yes, in relation to 1992, yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Yes, Mr. DP30, can you tell us, in your opinion this period of six

Page 16990

1 months when does it start this period that is linked to the establishment

2 of brigades?

3 A. That period starting from the beginning of May, that's where the

4 VRS was established, until October. That's the period. Because from the

5 1st of November, that's when Drina Corps also started to be supplied, as

6 well.

7 Q. So you are now telling us about the establishment of brigades

8 during this period from the moment when the Army of Republika Srpska was

9 established. Can you tell us do you have any knowledge which brigades are

10 they and who entered into the composition of the brigades?

11 A. These were mostly seven brigades that were part of the

12 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. That is they were established mostly the members

13 were Serbs, Serb whose were leaving Sarajevo, whether also Serbs were

14 leaving Central Bosnia, leaving municipalities of Zenica, Busovaca, Kakanj

15 some of them left Visoko, possibly Kiseljak, all of these people leaving

16 left via the area of Sarajevo where there was the Serb cross-roads, so to

17 speak. And most of these Serbs joined these brigades and that's how the

18 manpower personnel was filled. Ilidza, Ilijas, the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade.

19 I think it was 1st Rajlovac and then Vogosca Brigade. Then there was the

20 2nd Sarajevo Brigade and also there was the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.

21 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP30, when we are speaking about your warehouse

22 and the ammunition that was stored there in the area of the Koran

23 warehouse, can you tell us in which way was maintenance done, the

24 maintenance of the ammunition? What were the maintenance conditions?

25 A. As far as ammunition is concerned there was no particular

Page 16991

1 maintenance that had to be kept except the usual measures, according to

2 regulations, for storing of ammunition. Because if was stored mostly in

3 stable facilities. And as far as the other technical equipment and

4 materiel my base had as part of the barracks where I was, there was a

5 company of maintenance support and that is the medium maintenance support,

6 that is of medium degree of maintenance support, and from the brigades

7 some equipment that wasn't working would come to be fixed, for instance,

8 vehicles, communication equipment. And sometimes for artillery weapons

9 and for heavier armoured vehicles, then teams were sent to the locations

10 where these means were, where the equipment was and that's where the

11 maintenance or the repair was done.

12 Q. Mr. DP30, are you telling us that as part of your house there was

13 also a section for repairing the weapons?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us in your opinion the way of storing ammunition can

16 influence the good working order of weapons?

17 A. Yes. In any case, the weapons is outside during at wartime. All

18 weapons are outside which means that they are exposed to weather

19 conditions, all weather conditions. That means the cold, snow, rain, mud.

20 And in the middle of combat it is not always possible to maintain the

21 weapons in field conditions as it is done in peace. So it is logical that

22 in these conditions there were more breakdowns, that the weapons is then

23 used up more quickly, so to speak. There is also the corrosion process

24 which damages particularly the barrels of weapons. And then -- then it

25 could be that weapons could then have to have larger calibre and then of

Page 16992

1 course they would also be imprecise.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it is

4 time for a break.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will adjourn until 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into

9 the courtroom again.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

13 inform you that my colleague will continue with the examination for the

14 time that remains for us.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning. Can you hear me?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If my computer starts functioning, I would like to ask you a few

21 questions about technical matters. Do you know what one usually calls

22 maintenance? Do you know what that is? Not exactly. For the English

23 booth the term "remontage" is not maintenance. Just use the term

24 "remontage".

25 Yes or no?

Page 16993

1 A. "Remontage" or maintenance includes basic maintenance by immediate

2 user, by the direct users. It involve certain measures that the operators

3 have to carry out on a daily basis. Furthermore, there is a sort of light

4 maintenance which is done in workshops in the brigade --

5 Q. Witness, I will interrupt you there. When I say "remontage," I am

6 talking about mortars, specifically. What sort of operations of remontage

7 are carried out with mortars?

8 A. Ammunition is also subjected to remontage after a certain period

9 of time. It is -- there is then a sort of interim and general remontage

10 of ammunition. Part of the ammunition is taken to test whether it still

11 as the characteristics that are required of it. If it is not satisfactory

12 the ammunition is subjected to remontage or it is disposed of.

13 Q. Thank you. You talked about an ammunitions factory with which you

14 worked at the period of the events. This ammunitions factory, did it also

15 get involved in remontage in relation to mortars?

16 A. The ammunition factory wasn't with us and remontage of the

17 ammunition was carried out by the technical workshop as part of the 14th

18 logistics base in Banja Luka. And it was capable of doing this in

19 peacetime, too.

20 Q. Thank you. Witness, does the age of ammunition -- is the age of

21 ammunition a factor which leads to such or requires such remontage; yes or

22 no?

23 A. Well, clearly the age is a factor. If we talk about a powder

24 charge, it has a certain age. It grows old in chemical terms and no

25 longer satisfies conditions or rather when the powder burns, the effects

Page 16994

1 that are required of certain types of ammunition are not obtained.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know whether the stocks of ammunition,

3 supplies of ammunition that the parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina had at their

4 disposal, do you know whether at the time of the hostilities, do you know

5 whether these ammunition supplies were fairly old; yes or no?

6 MR. IERACE: I object.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, mostly --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: So far, Mr. President, we don't have a proper basis

10 for this witness to be asked that question in terms of his knowledge.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, although the

12 question has been answered, I would like to ask about his knowledge which

13 seems evident to me.

14 Q. But, Witness, in relation to a question that I am going to ask you

15 about the age of the ammunition, do you know or did you know, did you have

16 at the time any information about this matter, that is to say, about the

17 age of the ammunition, and if you had any information about this, where

18 did you obtain this information from?

19 A. Well, that information was on the cases of ammunition. You could

20 quite clearly see when it was assembled and the year of assembly. You

21 could see ammunition and it bore these markings, this information. It was

22 applicable for all ammunition apart from the latest automatic weapons, the

23 6.7-millimetre rifle ammunition was fairly new and it hadn't been the

24 subject of remontage.

25 Q. I will now ask you about artillery and mortars, for example which

Page 16995

1 were used by the artillery or by the infantry at the beginning of the

2 conflict. How old was the ammunition?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: I gather from Mr. Piletta-Zanin's response at page

5 32, line 14, that he intends to rely upon the part answer given by the

6 witness to the question to which I objected. The response by the witness

7 to the further question establishes only a basis of knowledge for

8 ammunition which was provided to the Bosnian Serb forces, not the other

9 forces, therefore, I seek that witness's answer be redacted on page 32, at

10 approximately line 10. Alternatively, that it be clearly understood that

11 it relates only to Bosnian Serb ammunition.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think

13 that there is any redaction here because we are talking about cases of

14 ammunition, and we know that these cases were the same on both sides of

15 the line. We have always been aware of this.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether that is true or not is a

17 second issue. Please try to get precise answers on the issue you would

18 like to deal with. That means that you are talking about the beginning of

19 the outbreak of the conflict. Perhaps ask with some precision what

20 ammunition you specifically would like to have information about because

21 from the answers it is clear that your questions leave open so much that

22 it is really guessing on what the witness will testify about, rather than

23 to guide him with -- without leading him, but guiding him with sufficient

24 precision to get answers that could assist the Chamber.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

Page 16996


2 MR. IERACE: -- The Prosecution is deeply concerned that

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin made the comment in the presence of the witness and in

4 my respectful submission the only remedy to overcome that prejudice is for

5 the Defence to be disallowed from asking any more questions on this issue.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided to put a few questions to the

8 witness in respect of the subject just dealt with.

9 When you are talking about ammunition, when you are talking about

10 boxes of ammunition, what boxes are you talking about? Boxes you've seen

11 where and when?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I talk about the ammunition

13 that was stocked in my warehouse in accordance with the regulations, every

14 type of ammunition has its own kind of packaging. The rules are very

15 specific. The length, the width, the height, and it bears the number of

16 the packaging.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Next question: What do you know about boxes of

18 ammunition used by the other party in the conflict?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about the

20 ammunition that the other side used in the conflict, but I can assume that

21 reserve ammunition that was in the Territorial Defence --

22 JUDGE ORIE: So you take it that ammunition from the Territorial

23 Defence might have been used by the other party; is that how I understand

24 your answer? But do you have any personal knowledge of the ammunition

25 used by the other party?

Page 16997

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed and on the basis of

3 the answer --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- Of the witness.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. As far as remontage, maintenance and overhaul is concerned, and

8 since there were inscriptions on the cases, could you tell this Chamber

9 whether the ammunition that wasn't at the disposition of your army at the

10 beginning of your hostilities, can you confirm that this ammunition was

11 already fairly old, et cetera?

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question because it is

13 in a leading form and any further questioning by the counsel should not be

14 leading.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will put that question

16 differently.

17 Q. Witness, what can you say with regard to the age of the ammunition

18 that was used? And I am referring to the mortars at the beginning of the

19 conflict.

20 A. I already said that there was ammunition which included grenades

21 which were fairly old and which had even been re-assembled. These were

22 stocks of the federal reserve for the JNA. Among those reserve stocks,

23 there were stocks that had been produced quite a long time ago that were

24 fairly old. At the time there was no war and it was normal for ammunition

25 to be stocked and kept until it was to be used, and until it was disposed

Page 16998

1 of.

2 Q. Could you give us any information about the age of the ammunition

3 and any general information about the average age; yes or no? If you

4 can't, well, it doesn't matter.

5 A. There was 7.9 millimetre ammunition which had been produced in

6 1947 and 1952. I remember that very well from the cases.

7 Q. I am talking about mortar shells.

8 A. I couldn't give you any precise information about mortar shells.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know what firing tables are?

10 A. Yes, firing tables.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, with regard to the problem concerning

12 remontage, maintenance and overhaul, what could you tell us about firing

13 tables, that is to say would these firing tables have to be brought up to

14 date, et cetera, et cetera?

15 A. Yes. After maintenance and overhaul, if the ammunition doesn't

16 satisfy all the conditions in accordance with the previous tables, new

17 ones are issued according to which you take certain measures when

18 targeting, and you follow these steps when firing in order to ensure that

19 the ammunition is precise, given the conditions that prevail at the time.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, as a result, and this is a purely

21 theoretical question, if I wanted to determine the trajectory of a mortar

22 shell with regard to -- in relation to a shell that had been re-assembled,

23 I should base myself on the adapted firing table for this re-assembled

24 mortar. Is that how I am to understand your testimony; yes or no?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16999

1 Q. Thank you. Witness we will now move on to another subject. Could

2 you tell us what tracer bullets are?

3 A. Well, tracer bullets are bullets which usually there is a tracer

4 at the back with a security compound, and at night you can usually see the

5 trajectory of the bullet.

6 Q. Thank you. Is there a difference between a tracer bullet and an

7 incendiary bullet; yes or no?

8 A. Yes, there is.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know whether in the ex-JNA, in the

10 former JNA, and in times of war, do you know whether there was a manner of

11 using ammunition, that is to say, to put ammunition in weapons themselves,

12 to divide tracer ammunition and nontracer ammunition amongst the weapons

13 themselves?

14 A. Well, usually in combat kits and packets, yes, the ammunition was

15 distributed in this way. This concerned infantry ammunition in

16 particular.

17 Q. Very well. But when one is loading one's weapon, if you know

18 anything about this, were there any orders that had been given to the men

19 concerning loading their weapons, that is to say whether tracer bullets

20 should be used or nontracer bullets or a mixture of the two, should there

21 be a certain distribution?

22 A. Well, for some information -- for some ammunition, for some

23 machine-guns, the ammunition had been sorted in this way. I couldn't say

24 whether every 3rd or 5th bullet was a tracer one. But with regard to

25 infantry weapons, yes, there are mixed packages too, PZO indications. It

Page 17000

1 means "tracer" ammunition.

2 Q. Witness, can these tracer bullets also be seen during the day?

3 You talked about the night, but in daytime, under certain conditions, is

4 it possible to see the trace of the so-called tracer bullets; yes or no?

5 A. Yes, such tracer bullets can be seen even in the daytime when

6 visibility is not that good.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like to move on to the subject of

8 craters. During the events were you able to see any craters in the area

9 that you were familiar with, that is to say, where you worked during the

10 war; yes or no?

11 A. I saw some craters in Pale when the first half of July, August,

12 when Pale was shelled. I think it was caused by the -- they were caused

13 by Howitzer shells and in the vicinity of the Military Hospital I saw them

14 and in the vicinity of my barracks, a few shells fell there.

15 Q. What type of crater -- what types of crater did you see, what

16 weapon was used?

17 A. Well, in my opinion these were weapons that had a fairly long

18 range. I think Howitzers or field guns were used because we didn't find

19 any that hadn't exploded so it wasn't possible to say what caused the

20 craters exactly.

21 Q. Do you know where the origin of fire was?

22 A. Well, as the artillery men from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

23 assessed it, it came from the direction of Sarajevo, from that direction

24 on the whole. So it seemed that only the elevation of the barrel was

25 being moved, altered, because the direction of fire was always the same.

Page 17001

1 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you have the opportunity of seeing any

2 other craters, apart from craters caused by field guns or Howitzers?

3 A. Yes. Especially after the war in 1997 and 1998 when I got

4 involved in the mine clearance process, and when I worked with mine

5 clearers in minefields and which were, on the whole, between the

6 demarcation lines of the two sides. Near the lines of the sides in the

7 conflict, there were craters, and often we would find mortar shells there

8 that had not exploded. Usually if a mortar shell hasn't exploded, we

9 would often find the safety valve in it so that meant the person that

10 fired the mortar shell did not take the safety valve out so the shell did

11 not explode. And if an explosion occurred, there was the corresponding

12 crater and its size depended on the calibre and the crater also depended

13 on what the ground was composed of, whether it was a sandy ground or

14 whether the ground was hard or whether it was an asphalt or concrete

15 surface, that's the case when the crater is not very deep and then you can

16 see the traces of the explosion and the traces of the shell.

17 Q. I will stop you there. Witness, did you have the opportunity of

18 seeing craters and craters caused by mortar shells during the wartime

19 period too, because your answer concerned the period after the war. But

20 from 1992 to 1994, during that period, did you have the opportunity of

21 seeing such craters; yes or no?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like to return to another

24 subject.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But, perhaps, Mr. President,

Page 17002












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 17002 to 17011.













Page 17012

1 we should go into private session, please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 17013

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE ORIE: One moment. We now are in open session.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, as a superior officer or senior officer, have you ever

5 seen any order that would have been of racist nature?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. Considering that you've answered now, have you ever,

8 as a senior officer, seen or heard about a plan, at the level of the corps

9 of the army, which was racist in nature; yes or no?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, have you ever heard it said, more precisely,

12 that the Army Corps would have issued a plan destined to eradicate all

13 Muslim population from Sarajevo; yes or no?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you. You said earlier that you didn't know about the

16 weapons cases of the opposing side. But what do you know about the

17 locations from which the opposing side was getting its weapons in an

18 initial period, either time when the conflict broke out, when the war

19 started and then during the later period, during the war?

20 A. What can I tell you, what I've already said, that it was from the

21 warehouse of Faletici that the opposing side also got weapons and the

22 military equipment. And everything else I can just presume or suppose

23 because there were other channels that were used and that was disclosed on

24 television, and even under the auspices of international forces that

25 weapons were produced in Sarajevo.

Page 17014

1 Q. I will stop you now. You are speaking about the Faletici

2 warehouse. Do you know what could have been in Faletici? Were there also

3 ammunitions and so on?

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question.

5 Madam Pilipovic questioned the witness at length about the weaponry that

6 was in the warehouse at Faletici.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I know. I know. But

8 what I wanted to clarify by this, Mr. President, was the type of cases, of

9 boxes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It is my recollection that the witness answered a

11 question that he assumed that the opposite party would have taken it, but

12 it was not his knowledge. So the only remaining question that would be

13 whether the witness knew anything about the cases in the Faletici

14 warehouse.

15 Do you know anything about the cases in the Faletici warehouse?

16 Did you ever see them?

17 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please tell us what you know about

19 it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you what I saw. I said

21 that I went there and that I had a unit which was part of the war

22 reserves. And it is normal when we went there for control that the people

23 who were handling, who had issued, been issued with these weapons, they

24 socialised, they would air the premises and occasionally a unit from

25 the technical section would be working and they are on the reconservation

Page 17015

1 of weapons and of other equipment. And of course that's where I saw,

2 apart from the equipment, I also saw the ammunition.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What could you tell us about the ammunition?

4 What type of ammunition was it, for what weaponry?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly for the weapons that were

6 there, that were stored there for that unit. So that would be

7 anti-personnel, and then shells for mortars, 60, 82, and 120-millimetre

8 calibre. Then there was ammunition for AA machine-guns, for AA guns, 20

9 through 3, 20 through 11, 20 through 1, 20 to 3 millimetre, and also for

10 recoilless guns, and then for anti-tank rockets of the Zolja and Osa

11 types, and also guided rockets for 9K-11 weapons.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything about the boxes in which the

13 ammunition was stored? Could you tell us anything about that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are boxes, cases with standard

15 issue and standard packaging. The size is the same as the JNA had. This

16 was former -- done by former factories of the former SFRJ and the

17 factories that produced the ammunition for the JNA.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, on these boxes that we are speaking about, was there a

21 year that was written on those boxes, the year of fabrication, the year of

22 production?

23 A. Yes, within the code. The year of production would be included in

24 the code.

25 Q. When we are speaking about mortar shells, do you recall what were

Page 17016

1 these numbers on the boxes that we were able to see, to which years were

2 these numbers referring to?

3 A. I couldn't tell you exactly.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness

9 or to start to cross-examine the witness?

10 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the answer is yes to both questions.

12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You will now be examined by counsel for the

14 Prosecution, Mr. DP30.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

16 Q. Sir, during your training and indeed your education before your

17 training, were you ever taught English?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you have any understanding of the English language?

20 A. A little bit, what I've learned in the process of humanitarian

21 mine clearance.

22 Q. You were interviewed by an investigator of the Office of the

23 Prosecutor for the Tribunal on the 8th of July 2001; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I think present also was Richard Philipps and Michael Blaxill, and

Page 17017

1 they also asked you some questions; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you questioned with the assistance of an interpreter?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you responded to their questions, did you do so truthfully

6 and to the best of your recollection?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were the questions asked by those three gentlemen interpreted into

9 a language that you could understand, and if so, what language was that?

10 A. The interpreter interpreted into the language I could understand,

11 which is Bosnian or Croatian or Serbian, whatever.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wish to make a submission in private

13 session in the absence of the witness, if I may.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, could you please escort the

15 witness out of the courtroom for a while.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE ORIE: And I would like to turn into private session.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 17018













13 Pages 17018-17034 redacted private session













Page 17035

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 --- Break taken at 12.51 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into open session again.

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ORIE: And we are in open session again. Is the Defence

15 ready to call its next witness, which would be Witness DP2? Yes.

16 Madam Usher, could you then please escort the witness into the courtroom.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please check on whether

21 channel 6 is on. Can you now hear me in a language you understand?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. DP2 because that's how we will

24 call you, Mr. DP2, since protective measures have been granted in respect

25 of you. That means that no one outside this courtroom will see your face

Page 17036

1 and we will not use your name. Mr. DP2, before giving evidence in this

2 court, the Rules require you to make a solemn declaration that you will

3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I invite

4 you to make that declaration and the text will be handed out to you now by

5 Madam Usher.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, with pleasure. I solemnly

7 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

8 truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. DP2.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

14 Defence.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

18 A. Good morning or good afternoon.

19 Q. Before we start anything, we are going to show you a document

20 which is already in the hands of Madam Usher, I believe. And as soon as

21 you have a look at the information contained in the document, let us know

22 if the information given is correct; yes or no.

23 A. Yes, they are correct.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence

Page 17037

1 would like to ask questions of personal nature. And then --

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Private

3 session.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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Page 17038

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24 [Open session]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 17039

1 Q. Witness, have you ever served under arms during the period of the

2 conflict in Sarajevo? If you can answer with a yes or no, I would be

3 grateful?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why not? Why didn't you?

6 A. I didn't bear weapons because I did not wish to do that, but I was

7 mobilised into the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Very well. Witness, what did you do during the war since

9 apparently you were not defending the country and bearing arms?

10 A. During the war I had two duties, one was the work obligation at

11 the republican pedagogical institute where I worked as an expert advisor,

12 and the second work obligation was a war one. I was digging trenches and

13 I think I am a rare example of a citizen of Sarajevo which had two work

14 obligations.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Every time you used in Serbian -- as you

16 used in Serbian the word "obligation" when you were speaking about the

17 work obligation in relation to digging of trenches, Witness, was this

18 something that was voluntarily or not? Because one can take on an

19 obligation voluntarily, and the opposite is equally true.

20 A. No, that was not a voluntarily obligation. Initially, I dug

21 trenches because I was rounded up in the street. And later on I regularly

22 received call-up papers to go and dig trenches from the municipality.

23 Q. Did you know -- no, I withdraw that.

24 Have you ever refused this obligation, this work obligation?

25 A. No, no, I didn't even think of that. And I think I wouldn't dare

Page 17040

1 refuse such an obligation because to be a Serb in Sarajevo, not to take up

2 a weapon and to refuse to dig would mean a kind of suicide.

3 Q. Can you be more precise, please? Could you be more precise,

4 please?

5 A. Well, precise answer would be that Serbs in Sarajevo lost their

6 lives just because they would have a Serb name. And to refuse to dig

7 trenches would mean a provocation in a sense that people would come to my

8 apartment, take me away and I would disappear. That would be something

9 that would irritate them, that would give them a cause to make something

10 happen.

11 Q. Thank you very much. When you say that you would disappear, what

12 did you mean by that, specifically?

13 A. Well, it's not unknown that Serbs disappeared in Sarajevo. People

14 would enter at night into their apartments. Whoever had a weapon, had a

15 rifle, had some kind of accreditation and could enter into an apartment

16 and take away the person. To disappear in Sarajevo, that would mean to be

17 neither dead or alive, but more frequently, dead.

18 Q. You say that this was something that was well known. Do you

19 personally have knowledge of such facts, Witness?

20 A. Well, yes, I do. That was well known in Sarajevo that Serbs

21 disappeared, that they were murdered. Some of my friends also disappeared

22 like that. And I have to say that every night as soon as darkness fell I

23 would expect and would be anxious when my turn would come.

24 Q. Witness, you say that some of your friends have disappeared in

25 this abrupt way. I would like you to tell us more.

Page 17041

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, I believe

2 we are going to be to go back into closed session.

3 Q. If you can tell us some names, but as soon as we are in closed

4 session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Private

6 session.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

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Page 17042

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25 [Open session]

Page 17043

1 JUDGE ORIE: We are.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Q. Witness, again we are in open session now. You spoke of this

4 Mr. Caco earlier. Is there an event in particular in relation to the

5 elimination of people, no matter who they were, that you can tell us about

6 and to which you were present at?

7 A. It is known that Caco Topolovic had problems in the town also with

8 the official police. And until the final event, the 27th of October,

9 1993, when finally the police had the final showdown with Caco, during

10 that showdown of Muslims, I was a hostage with my wife and with 60 of our

11 neighbours. I was present when Caco killed 8 policemen with his handgun

12 in their mouths and in front of 60 of us hostages --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last part of the

14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that, Caco lost his life and

16 the trial showed that --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. I

18 apologise. The interpreters are asking you to repeat the very last

19 sentence.

20 Q. I would be grateful if you can say from the moment when you were

21 speaking about 60 hostages.

22 A. In front of 60 hostages that Caco held under the threat that

23 unless Alija Izetbegovic with his police and army, if Alija Izetbegovic

24 attacks him, that he will then kill us. Then in front of us, I said he

25 cut the throats of two policemen. And before that, he killed 8 hostages

Page 17044

1 with a gun in their mouth, with a pistol in their mouth, and I watched

2 that and I was not the only one who saw that.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. In relation to this person that you spoke

4 about, this man called Caco, do you know what was his military

5 significance; yes or no?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

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20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 JUDGE ORIE: We are still missing one part of an answer in the

23 transcript. You told us that Caco died and that something became apparent

24 at the trial, but there was not -- is that --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I didn't

Page 17045

1 say that the transcript was not reflecting what the witness said. What I

2 said was that we may have had a problem of redaction in relation to the

3 information disclosed by the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I asked Madam Registrar to deal with that. And I

5 came to my next point, that was that you told us something about Caco that

6 died and that something became apparent at trial. But that part of your

7 answer is not clearly reflected in the transcript. So would you please

8 repeat what you said about that.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Caco didn't die, he was killed. On

10 that day when police and army were sent on him, against him, after that

11 members of his staff were arrested and some soldiers. I know that there

12 was a trial and at this trial crimes were spoken of during this trial, the

13 crimes that Caco had committed against the Serb population in Sarajevo.

14 If I may, the investigator at this trial neuropsychiatrist, Dragan Stanic,

15 who is an acquaintance of mine, told me that those 30 of Caco's combatants

16 admitted to having killed over 700 Serb civilians at Trebevic.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object on the basis of

18 relevance.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked the witness to tell this. But I think

20 he -- you finished your answer in this respect -- on this subject. I have

21 got one more question: When was Caco killed, do you remember that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do remember. I was present

23 there. That was on the 28th of October, 1993.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 17046

1 Q. Witness, can we proceed with that line of questioning where we

2 stopped. You told us about the opposition between Caco and seemingly the

3 police and other military authorities; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Witness, as much as you can answer by yes, what do you know and

6 what specifically were you present at that could tell us about the

7 existence of this opposition?

8 A. What I know is that Caco had blocked off Bistrik as his own

9 territory into which not even the police could go.

10 Q. Very well. Were you present at some opposition acts with on one

11 side Caco's forces and on the other side, other forces, and what acts were

12 they?

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may interrupt. There is no

14 indication with regard to the time period here as to whether these

15 incidents "in fact" come within the indictment period or not.


17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And which date was that, when was this?

19 A. The animosity between Caco and the police and some other

20 commanders of the Army of BH lasted throughout the time that I was in

21 Sarajevo, that is until the 9th of June 1994. I know that when Caco's

22 deputy was arrested, Pecar, I know that Caco disarmed a police station in

23 Stari Grad, that he rounded up from the street and from the apartments 200

24 hostages, and that he asked for Pecar to be released or that he would kill

25 all the hostages.

Page 17047

1 Q. Thank you very much. Since you are speaking about hostile acts,

2 were you present during such hostile acts or conflicts? And I am not

3 necessarily speaking about hostage situations, but conflictual situations

4 between these two opposing sides?

5 A. Yes. I wasn't hostage at the time, but my neighbour, Rada, was a

6 hostage, and she told me about this. Personally I know that Caco had

7 fired from his headquarters with a mortar onto the other side of Bistrik

8 where the police is, the special unit of the police, led by the special

9 policeman, Dragan Vikic.

10 Q. Witness, were you present when there were other similar -- when

11 other similar shots were fired from one side or the other, but from the

12 forces in Sarajevo itself?

13 A. No, no, I wasn't present.

14 Q. Thank you. But did you see any exchanges of fire from any place

15 originating in a barracks or a military part of Sarajevo in the direction

16 of another military part of Sarajevo in the zone under the control of the

17 Presidency?

18 A. No, I didn't. Apart from what I have mentioned, no, I didn't.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, since we have talking about heavy weapons, I

20 would now like to talk about destruction. My first question is as

21 follows: In the area that you lived in, were there any mosques and were

22 there any minarets?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just a minute, please.

25 A. I apologise.

Page 17048

1 Q. Were there several of them or just one?

2 A. In the old part of Sarajevo, including the centre, there are over

3 40 mosques, perhaps even more. Not a single mosque or any minarets were

4 destroyed.

5 Q. Thank you. Witness, what can you tell us about the damage

6 inflicted on buildings in Sarajevo during the period that you were there

7 and in the areas that you were able to visit?

8 A. The old part of town and Bistrik were parts of the town that were

9 subjected to the greatest part of the military activity. But I can tell

10 you that not a single building was destroyed. The only damage that was

11 visible was damage to the roofs of houses and damage done to windows that

12 had been shattered.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, a minute ago you said that you were rounded

14 up to dig trenches in a sense. Could you tell this Trial Chamber in

15 relation to the damage done to property and to buildings, was the

16 situation different at the demarcation line where you dug trenches, and in

17 the interior where you resided or where perhaps you visited friends, et

18 cetera? Was the situation different with regard to the damage or

19 destruction of buildings?

20 A. Yes. The difference was really great. I dug at the demarcation

21 lines, the lines separating the two sides. The houses were destroyed.

22 They didn't have any roofs. All that remained was the walls.

23 Q. Witness, you are talking about the confrontation line here; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17049

1 Q. Thank you. And this situation, the destruction, was it the same

2 in the centre in Bistrik and in the centre, could you say -- could you

3 answer the question by saying yes or no, please?

4 A. Sorry. Could you -- no. No.

5 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move on to the subject of digging

6 trenches. First of all, could you tell this Trial Chamber for how long

7 were you forced to carry out this work which was obligatory, which was

8 forced labour?

9 A. Well, at the beginning of the war in April and May, we were

10 rounded up by the army in the streets. By the army, by troops with

11 weapons. And later we were summoned in an organised way to dig and during

12 one month I had a work obligation in my institute, and the second part of

13 the time I spent digging trenches. You could say that I dug for 15 days

14 and worked in my institute for 15 days.

15 Q. Witness, you say that there was a rotation. You would work for

16 two weeks in your civilian capacity and you would work for two weeks in a

17 military capacity. This was the obligation you had to carry out. Is that

18 how your time was divided?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Before we show you any maps, could you tell us whether

21 you were in a position to indicate the places where you dug these defence

22 facilities? Could you point them out to us? Could you indicate them?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Go ahead, please.

25 A. I will wait for the map.

Page 17050

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]...

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think it would not be good idea to start with that

3 now. We have six minutes left and we would like to see how Mr. DP30

4 proceeds. So if you could find a suitable moment to --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, absolutely. We

6 can wait until tomorrow to deal with the maps. But in the meantime --

7 Q. Witness, could you tell us the names of the places where you dug?

8 A. Yes. I dug on the Muslim side of the Jewish cemetery, below the

9 transit road. The second place was called Ablakovina those are the slopes

10 of Trebevici. And the third part was Faletici below Trebevici and

11 throughout Borije, along the length of Borije. Those are the places

12 around Sarajevo.

13 Q. Thank you. I am going to ask you two questions which have to do

14 with each of these three locations that you have mentioned. First of all,

15 was there a general rule with regard to the amount of trenches that each

16 person had to provide, each person with this obligation had to provide?

17 A. Yes, well they told us that we had to dig 5 metres every day, but

18 I have to say that they didn't really request this to be carried out.

19 Q. Thank you. And did you receive a remuneration for this kind of

20 work, any form of remuneration?

21 A. Do you mean money?

22 Q. Yes, obviously.

23 A. Well, I said that I was buying my own safety, that is security for

24 my own life by the digging. So as far as remuneration is concerned, it

25 would be mad to comment on this. We didn't receive anything.

Page 17051

1 Q. Thank you. I would now like to --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP2, this concludes your testimony for today.

4 May I instruct you not to speak anyone about your testimony, not with

5 Prosecution counsel, not with Defence counsel, with no one at all. It

6 might be that we will not continue tomorrow morning right away with you,

7 because there is another witness who has not finished yet. We used the

8 time in between to start your examination. So it might be that you will

9 be in court only later tomorrow morning. Madam Usher, could you please

10 escort the witness out of the courtroom.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and could you please seek, Mr. DP30, too.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And may you seek Witness DP30, too.

14 [The witness DP30 stands down]

15 [The witness DP2 entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP30, may I ask you whether you were able to

17 finish the jobs we asked you to do or have you not yet?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't even managed to read

19 through half of it. In the translation there are quite a few sentences

20 that are not clear, as far as I could tell. In the English version it

21 seems all right, but there is a lot of repetition here, and there are

22 mistakes in the translation. But in the English version, as far as I can

23 tell, on the basis of the little bit that I can understand, it seems to be

24 more correct. So there are a lot of translation errors.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, would you be willing to --

Page 17052

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be willing to finish the job this afternoon

3 so that once you finished that you inform someone of the victims and

4 witness unit, this person will then call our Registrar and our Registrar

5 will then come and fetch the document as you have marked it or at least

6 the documents, because I now found out that you are also concentrating on

7 the English language, so that it could be distributed later today between

8 the parties so that they can prepare for the continuation of your

9 examination tomorrow.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Are you willing to do that? I hope that you had

12 something to drink or eat, so you are not starving while doing this job.

13 I will take care that if you had not had any sandwiches that at least

14 there is something for you so that you can do the job in an acceptable

15 physical condition.

16 May I again remind you that you are supposed not to talk to

17 anyone, not during the job you are doing, not afterwards, and we would

18 like to see you back in court tomorrow. Yes. Yes, Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we adjourn, given that tomorrow

20 is the last day of sitting before the end of year break, if the Trial

21 Chamber had a decision on the maps, then if that decision is that maps in

22 some form would be acceptable, we could -- the Prosecution could utilise

23 the break to produce those maps. I simply bring that to your attention if

24 the decision tomorrow is available.

25 JUDGE ORIE: If we would give you a decision by tomorrow, would

Page 17053

1 that be in time, yes. Then we will -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As long as the Defence hasn't

3 been able to familiarise itself with the qualities of the so-called

4 extraordinary software, I don't think that any response will be provided.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I have to go through the transcript again

6 to know exactly what we discussed about it. There is another issue that I

7 would like to draw your attention to, is that if we would work as

8 efficiently as possible tomorrow, we might be able to avoid one of the

9 witnesses to be recalled after first having to leave for the former

10 Yugoslavia. So I would call upon the parties to do whatever we cannot to

11 force witnesses to leave and then come back again. We will adjourn until

12 tomorrow morning, 9.00, in the same courtroom.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

14 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

15 the 10th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.