Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17204

 1                          Wednesday, 8 January 2003

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7    Stanislav Galic.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9            I hope that everyone had a time to -- had a pleasant time at

10    Christmas, and I hope that everyone -- although, the Chamber is fully

11    aware that the circumstances are not the same to everyone in this

12    courtroom, but nevertheless, that you have a good and healthy year 2003.

13            The Chamber has been informed that there are no specific issues to

14    deal with right at the beginning of this first hearing in the year 2003,

15    which would mean that the Defence could call its first witness, which as

16    far as I can see on my list will be Mykhaylo Alex Androvich Tsynchenko.

17    Is that correct?  Yes.

18            Then Mr. Usher is trying to locate -- he's gone already -- in

19    order to escort the witness into the courtroom.

20            Mr. Mundis.

21            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, the most recent letter that we have

22    from the Defence, dated 26 December, indicates that the first witness

23    would be Sergij Moroz.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  I have in front of me a letter of the 6th of January,

25    2003, sent on that same day by telefax, indicating that Sergij Moroz, due

Page 17205

 1    to illness, is unable to appear as previously scheduled.

 2            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, the registrar has kindly loaned me a

 3    copy of this letter.  This is the first time the Prosecution has seen

 4    this.  I see it's clearly marked to the attention of Mr. Ierace, but

 5    neither our case manager Ms. McCreath nor myself have seen this letter

 6    prior to today.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  That raises the next issue, whether --

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Simply, we have in front of us

11    the receipts and telecopies dated the 6th of January, 2003, and the same

12    numbers as those we normally and usually use to communicate with the

13    Prosecution.  Therefore, the same day the letter was sent and received by

14    telefax, and that is where we stand.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The usual number is the number of the registry,

16    may I ask you, Madam Registrar, or is it the number of the Prosecutor, the

17    Prosecutor's Office, the OTP?

18            Could you please then -- that number is, Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- what

19    telefax number has been used?

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.  We have several

21    numbers in front of us.  (redacted), and this

22    one twice.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Has it been sent to all these numbers or is

24    it -- [Interpretation] was it sent to all these numbers?

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, quite.  The last twice,

Page 17206

 1    to the last number twice.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mundis, on what number would you expect to

 3    receive telefax messages?

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to be practical.  Is the Prosecution

15    in the position that it could cross-examine the witness which is called

16    right now?

17            MR. MUNDIS:  I believe the Prosecution could be ready to go,

18    Mr. President, with the perhaps caveat that I see from the letter dated 6

19    January that the Defence has only two witnesses scheduled for this week.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21            MR. MUNDIS:  Perhaps depending on the testimony of the first

22    witness, if we might be permitted if necessary a brief recess in light of

23    the fact that there are only two witnesses.  That should not present a

24    problem.  Perhaps we can take events as they unfold.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the Chamber would like to be informed

Page 17207

 1    about what will be the standard procedure of sending telefaxes, and what

 2    numbers will be the numbers that do not create any confusion.

 3            So we'll proceed now, having heard the position of the

 4    Prosecution, but the Chamber would like to be informed on how the

 5    communication technically proceeds.

 6                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness

 8    into the courtroom.

 9                          [The witness entered court]

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tsynchenko, do you hear me in a language you

11    understand?  And what language is that?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Russian.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the translation to Russian functions

14    properly.

15            I do understand that you also speak and understand some English

16    and that you would not oppose against giving a solemn declaration that

17    you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in

18    English.  If you would prefer, however, to do that in Russian as well,

19    then we first have to ask the interpreters to translate the solemn

20    declaration.  But if you would not oppose against giving the solemn

21    declaration in English, then I would like to invite you to stand up and

22    give the solemn declaration in English.  But if you would prefer to do it

23    in Russian, then please tell me.

24            THE WITNESS:  I am Tsynchenko Mykhaylo.  I solemnly declare that I

25    will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 17208

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  Please be seated.

 2            Mr. Tsynchenko, you will first be examined by counsel for the

 3    Defence.

 4                          WITNESS:  MYKHAYLO TSYNCHENKO

 5                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, is it you or is it Mr. Piletta-Zanin

 7    who will be examining the witness?

 8            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague will be examining the

 9    witness today.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12                          Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

14       A.   [In English] I'm ready.

15       Q.   I assume that you can hear me well.  The first question that we

16    would like to put to you is the following:  Could you in a few words tell

17    us, please, what was your professional background, that is, educational

18    background and your career, briefly.

19       A.   Well, I was born in 1951 in the city of Kiev.  I graduated from

20    the Kiev general troop command college, majoring in being an officer of

21    general troops, the infantry, I would say.  I served in the Army of the

22    Soviet Union at the positions of the commander of a platoon, commander of

23    a unit, deputy commander of a battalion, officer of the staff of a corps.

24    Then I graduated from the military academy named after Frunze in Moscow.

25    And upon the graduation, I was commander of a corps in different positions

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Page 17210

 1    and management of different level from the army to the military district.

 2    And as of 1991, I continued the service in the army of the Ukraine in the

 3    Ministry of Defence at the position of the chief or senior commander of

 4    the Chief of Staff and head of a unit in the Chief of Staff.

 5            As of 1993, November 1993, under the quota designated by the

 6    United Nations for Ukraine, I was nominated to the position of deputy

 7    commander of a sector of UN troops in Sarajevo, the Sarajevo sector.  At

 8    that position I was serving until July 1994.

 9            After the completion of the term of my stay within the UN troops

10    in Sarajevo, I came back to Ukraine, where I continued my service in the

11    Ministry of Defence, and then I retired into reserve.

12            Currently I'm working in a civilian enterprise or firm.

13       Q.   Thank you, witness.  We are going to focus above all on the period

14    that you have just mentioned, that is, November 1993 up to July 1994.

15    Could you please first of all specify --

16       A.   [In English] -- No translation.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There is translation now?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   Let me repeat.  Thank you for your comments, witness.  We are

21    going to focus on the period from November 1993 to July 1994.  You spoke

22    here about the functions you held.  Could you tell us, who was - and I

23    expect you to give us the name - who was your direct superior in the

24    hierarchy?

25       A.   Well, in the hierarchy, I can say that the brigade general Andre

Page 17211

 1    Soubirou [Realtime transcript read in error "Simuru"].  Shall I give more

 2    names?

 3       Q.   Could you please repeat the name.

 4       A.   Andre Soubirou, brigade general.

 5       Q.   Are you perhaps referring to Mr. Andre Soubirou, S-o-u-b-i-r-o-u?

 6       A.   There was a brigade general, and he had enormous military

 7    experience.  I know that he's now in the position --

 8       Q.   No, witness.  Excuse me.  My question was simply to get the name

 9    from you.  It wasn't spelled out properly.  Was this person, Mr. Andre

10    Soubirou?  Just yes or no, please.

11       A.   [In English] I can read here.  Not Souberou.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  I think as a matter of fact -- I think as a matter of

13    fact if the parties would agree that he's referring to --

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Mr. President, let me spell

15    the name of the person that everyone knows.  So the name is

16    S-o-u-b-e-r-o-u -- after "B" it's "I."  S-o-u-b-i-r-o-u.  So we have

17    Soubirou. Thank you.

18       Q.   For how long was General Soubirou -- for how long did this general

19    hold the position in Sarajevo?

20       A.   Well, I think he arrived approximately -- he arrived from Zagreb

21    the 19th of November.  Either 11th or 19th -- or 11th or the 12th.  Excuse

22    me.  I arrived from Sarajevo and General Soubirou was already in command

23    of the troops of the sector.  When I was leaving in July of 1994, General

24    Soubirou was saying goodbye to me.  How long he stayed there, I cannot

25    tell.  I can only judge from the experience of my colleagues who came

Page 17212

 1    later.

 2       Q.   Witness, could you tell us, what was the frequency of the contacts

 3    that you had personally and professionally with General Soubirou.

 4       A.   Well, maybe five times a day or six times a day.  Sometimes 12,

 5    sometimes for several days we did not see each other, when we were going

 6    to different sectors.  But practically every day we would meet 4, 5, 6, or

 7    up to 10 times.

 8       Q.   Witness, did you have occasion during your stay in Sarajevo to

 9    meet General Galic, yes or no?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Thank you.  When you did have occasion to meet him, was this in a

12    professional context or in some other context?

13       A.   Well, that was purely professional encounters which could be

14    happening every day or every other day or once a week.  Whenever the

15    situation required that.

16       Q.   Would you please remind us what was your military rank at the time

17    when you had contact with General Galic.

18       A.   Well, first of all I would like to clarify that my military degree

19    is Colonel.  But when I was meeting with General Galic, we would go to

20    personal encounters, when we were talking through liaison officers and

21    through radio stations, we were talking also through our observers and

22    liaison officers.  When there were meetings in person, then we would go

23    with General Soubirou.

24       Q.   Why did you speak through the intermediary of other officers,

25    witness?

Page 17213

 1       A.   Well, we were in the staff of our sector, and General Galic was in

 2    Lukavica and his staff.  That is why we had to make appointments through

 3    other officers and we had to talk so that liaison officers would schedule

 4    appointments for us, because everyone has his own functions, military

 5    functions, and it is not possible just to go there and find General Galic

 6    right on the spot immediately.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, when did these meetings occur?

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 9            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may just point out.  This

10    material is not covered in the 65 ter provided by the Defence to the

11    Prosecution.  I just wanted to place that on the record.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is on record, since you've mentioned it.

13            I do understand from your remark that it's not your intention to

14    have any oral argument on this issue.  We had that before.  But you just

15    wanted it to be put on the record.

16            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  Especially in view of the

17    fact that we -- the Prosecution did not anticipate this witness earlier

18    on.  We may need to make an application for recess before

19    cross-examination.  Thank you, Mr. President.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may then proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.  We won't make any

22    comments now.  We will proceed immediately.

23       Q.   Witness, when these meetings occurred, was there any kind of

24    protocol applied so that officers of a certain rank could address officers

25    of the same rank?  Was that some sort of rule?

Page 17214

 1       A.   Well, if I may, I would like to say a few words about the

 2    procedures of service and reaction towards everything that was happening

 3    there.  Well, the protocol would signify that when we were preparing some

 4    bilateral meeting or something official for the meeting.  But when it was

 5    necessary to solve some issue regarding some cease-fire from one side or

 6    the other from within Sarajevo, where I also had a chance to meet with the

 7    command at different levels, the commanders of brigades, Bosnian, as well

 8    as a chance to meet at levels of commanders of brigade at the other side.

 9            So we had very quick response to various circumstances where I was

10    sent by General Soubirou whenever there was need for intervention.  This

11    is why no protocol was envisaged -- protocols were taken or held only at

12    official meetings in the government.  There was mostly meetings by General

13    Soubirou, by our political adviser Viktor Andreev and also General Rose

14    and they had meetings with the Prime Minister and the president of Bosnia

15    Herzegovina.  Also, whenever they would go to Pale and have meetings with

16    the commanders of the troops from the Serbian army and the president of

17    the Republika Srpska.

18            Then we had official protocols or minutes of meetings were taken.

19    As far as I know, no official minutes of meetings were taken at other

20    level meetings or no protocol was envisaged.  I was present at a number of

21    meetings.  I don't remember how many meetings, but usually General

22    Soubirou would always hold negotiations in person with General Galic.  I

23    would come with him together, but I would work at my level usually with

24    the Chief of Staff or with his officers.

25       Q.   [No interpretation]

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Page 17216

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  On the screen I see that we have a translation

 2    problem.  I think it has been restored now.

 3            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think you said that -- you asked the witness

 4    to allow you to stop him, and you told him that -- to come to the core of

 5    your question.

 6            Please proceed.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please --

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  We're having now translation again.  Please proceed.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you

10       Q.   Witness, could you specify the following:  When these discussions

11    occurred, was there any kind of protocol in the sense that the discussions

12    were between equals?  For example, from one general to another, from a

13    colonel -- between a colonel, between two colonels, between two majors,

14    and that sort of thing.

15       A.   Well, I can say only that General Galic preferred to meet with

16    General Soubirou.  I can also quote him.  He said, "We are generals.  We

17    will talk to ourselves.  And you, you are a colonel, so talk to my

18    colonels."  Well, as far as protocols are concerned and no protocols or

19    minutes were taken.  Usually after the meeting, General Soubirou would --

20       Q.   Witness, I will interrupt you.  Should I understand your testimony

21    being that General Galic addressed you at least once saying "you are a

22    colonel, so I won't talk to you.  Talk to my colonel"?  Is that what

23    you're telling us?

24       A.   That's right.  Those were his words verbatim and I remember that

25    well.

Page 17217

 1       Q.   Very well.  Do you know whether General Galic applied this

 2    protocol as a general rule, yes or no?  Have you understood my question?

 3       A.   Not quite.

 4       Q.   Do you know whether in general General Galic respected these

 5    protocol rules; that is to say, "I am a general.  I only want to speak to

 6    another general," et cetera.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please specify the question to the

 9    extent --

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  -- To the witness whether this protocol was always

12    applied as far as he knows.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Mr. President,

14    for the sake of the transcript, your question wasn't entirely reproduced

15    in the transcript.  I don't know if we have technical problems of some

16    kind here.  But I have noticed that on occasion certain elements are

17    missing.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It might be due to the fact that I spoke when

19    translation was still going on.  I will not do that again.  But I asked

20    you to specify the question to the extent whether the witness could tell

21    us whether this protocol was always applied as far as he was present.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.  In this case, I

23    won't paraphrase you, Mr. President.

24       Q.   Witness, you heard the question.  Could you answer it.

25       A.   When we went to see him in order to solve any problem, together

Page 17218

 1    with General Soubirou, with his assistant Major Bergeron, together with

 2    our officers, perhaps, we could meet with General Galic when his officers

 3    were present as well.  If we needed to solve a problem and we came only

 4    two of us, then he would normally just remain with General Soubirou and

 5    discuss the problem with him.  I wasn't quite sure what you -- what was

 6    the gist of your question.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  But I think you've answered the question perhaps even

 8    without realising that.  Thank you.

 9            I would now like to turn to a different subject, witness, and I

10    would like to examine the issue of destruction.  You spent -- you lived

11    for about six months, a little more than six months in Sarajevo.  Could

12    you tell us where destruction was caused to buildings in Sarajevo, as far

13    as you can remember, where the majority of the destruction was caused.

14       A.   The largest destruction was in the area close to the airport.

15    There were checkpoints there.  I hope I'm using the right word,

16    "checkpoints."  There were Bosnian and Serbian checkpoints.  That area was

17    fully destroyed.  There was not a single building intact there along the

18    road.

19            There was large destruction in the area of the bridge over the

20    Milatska river in Grbavica, and in the area of Ilidza.  Many buildings

21    were destroyed there.  In addition to that, high-rise buildings in

22    downtown Sarajevo were destroyed as well.  These high-rise buildings were

23    destroyed partially.  Some floors were destroyed, especially on the sixth,

24    seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth floors.  These floors were not

25    inhabited.

Page 17219

 1            In addition to that, the area near the stadium was also destroyed,

 2    the stadium that was used during the Olympic games for ice sports, such as

 3    hockey and ice skating and so on.

 4            In addition to that, there were -- there was some destruction

 5    visible on the outskirts of the city in the mountainous area.  As one

 6    would leave the city and head towards the mountains, one could see certain

 7    buildings destroyed there.  If you would give me a map, I would be able to

 8    point out these areas for you.

 9       Q.   Yes.  In a minute we will show you a map, but first of all I would

10    like you to specify a few issues.  You spoke about areas close to the

11    airport.  Do you remember the names of these areas?

12       A.   If you would give me a map, then I would be able to be more

13    specific.

14       Q.   --  A map later.  You spoke about the higher storeys of high-rise

15    buildings, the sixth, the seventh floor, et cetera.  Why were these

16    buildings or these floors, why were they not inhabited and why were they

17    damaged, at least partially?

18       A.   Well, that's quite understandable.  If there was some kind of an

19    exchange of fire, then it was a guided fire, and these floors were

20    targeted.  There were no windowpanes on those floors.  And one could see,

21    for example, a floor with apartments on it and one could see through the

22    apartments on that floor, because this was a direct fire.  All of this

23    took place before I arrived.  When I arrived in Sarajevo, this -- examples

24    of destruction were already present there.

25       Q.   Very well, witness.  In the outskirts that you mentioned, since

Page 17220

 1    you spoke about the airport area, did you have the opportunity to move to

 2    the centre, to move around the centre of the town, that is to say, the old

 3    centre, yes or no?

 4       A.   Certainly.  We went everywhere.  We went -- I personally went

 5    everywhere.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  When you went to those areas, to the old centre --

 7    when I say "the old centre," I'm referring to what we call the old town,

 8    the Stari Grad, that area.  What can you tell us -- could you please wait

 9    for me to finish the question, please.  What can you tell us about the

10    state of the buildings, the state of the property in that part of the

11    town, that is to say, in the centre of the town?

12       A.   In the downtown area, the theatre building was destroyed, fully

13    destroyed.  In addition to that, the library building, which was

14    considered as one of the most important buildings in town before the war

15    was also destroyed.  It was a rare example of that type of architecture.

16    And then there were some areas that were damaged, not destroyed.

17            There's an area in that part of town where there are three

18    temples.  There was an Orthodox church, a Catholic church, and a mosque.

19    All of them were damaged but not destroyed.  In downtown, in every

20    building there were residents.  They lived on lower floors or in the

21    basement area, but almost every building was inhabited.  It is difficult

22    now for me to pinpoint exactly which buildings were destroyed and which

23    were not.

24       Q.   For the French translation, uninhabited -- no, I apologise.  I

25    apologise.

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Page 17222

 1            I'd like to turn now to the buildings in the old centre, witness.

 2    Was the extent of damage comparable, yes or no, to what happened at the

 3    conflict lines themselves?  Yes or no.

 4       A.   The extent of the damage is something that I cannot describe to

 5    you now because I did not take any notes.  I didn't take any footage.

 6    There was a lot of journalists there who recorded that, and I believe that

 7    the extent of damage is well known.  Therefore, I wouldn't like to go into

 8    that.  But most of the buildings that were destroyed were located along

 9    the areas where there was combat.

10       Q.   Thank you very much.  Just one question, one precise question:  In

11    Sarajevo, did you see any religious sites, such as mosques, that had been

12    totally destroyed?

13       A.   No.  No.  There were no completely destroyed --

14       Q.   Thank you.  I would now like you to tell us, and then we'll show

15    you a map -- could you tell us where you lived while you were in Sarajevo.

16       A.   I lived in the PTT building, which is a building where the sector

17    headquarters was located.  I hope the PTT building is a sufficient

18    depiction.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us what you could see from your

20    windows.  Or for the English booth, which direction did your windows face?

21       A.   I faced the mountains, the mountainous area.  Well, if we take

22    that this was the area where I was, this is where the PTT building was,

23    and it faced the mountains, just as I am now facing the distinguished

24    Judges.

25       Q.   The west?

Page 17223

 1       A.   North.

 2       Q.   Witness, I think we could now show you the map with the assistance

 3    of the usher.  Thank you.  It's Exhibit D1819.  It's the same map that we

 4    are familiar with.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And we could put it on the

 6    ELMO.  Thank you.

 7       Q.   Witness, do you recognise the map that we can see on the screen?

 8       A.   Just a minute, please.  Just a minute, please, because I can't see

 9    it very well here.  I think that this here is the PTT building --

10       Q.   Just a minute, witness.  You can't point to it on your screen.

11    You have to point to the map on your left.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.  For the Russian booth, I

13    didn't say what you just said, but that's not that important.  Thank you.

14       Q.   Witness, do you recognise this?

15       A.   Yes, I do.  This is the PTT building.  So from my window, I faced

16    Vitkovac, that area.  This is what I could see from my window.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Could you point to that again, please.  Could you

18    please point to the PTT building so that we can see that clearly.

19       A.   This is the PTT building.  And I faced Vitkovac.  I could see

20    Vitkovac and this area here, the elevated area.  This is what I could see

21    from my window.

22       Q.   Very well.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness, for the sake of

24    the transcript, pointed to the building that bears the inscription "PTT"

25    on the map, and he then pointed to the area which is to the north,

Page 17224

 1    north-east, let's say, beyond the Miljacka River.

 2       Q.   What can you tell us, witness, about what you could see from the

 3    window of the PTT building in the direction that you indicated?  And I'm

 4    referring to weapons.  Which weapons could you see?

 5       A.   Practically no weapons.  I couldn't see any weapons from my

 6    window.  I could see explosions, fire exchanged in Vitkovac area.  The

 7    explosion and the fire mostly originated from the centre of Sarajevo.  I

 8    could see that.  As to the weapons --

 9       Q.   Witness, perhaps I'll rephrase that question.  Do you know whether

10    the forces, the interior forces that are sometimes called the presidency

11    forces, do you know whether they had heavy weapons, yes or no?

12       A.   They certainly did.  They certainly did have heavy weapons.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

14            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object, Mr. President.  I think the witness

15    has already answered the question and then this is an attempt to prod the

16    witness on further.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In the presence of the witness?

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, not at all.  But I don't

20    think that the witness answered the question.  The witness answered the

21    question that I put to him concerning what he could see.  I'm not asking

22    him about what he could see, but I want to know what he knows, which is a

23    different matter.  And apparently the Prosecution fail to realise this.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

25            You may answer that question, whether you --

Page 17225

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  -- knew whether there were --

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4       Q.   What do you know about the heavy weapons --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  It has already been answered, I think, by now as a

 6    response to your question, but -- the answer is, "They certainly did.

 7    They certainly did have heavy weapons."

 8            Please proceed.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

10       Q.   Witness, since you said that the presidency forces had heavy

11    weapons, could you tell us what comes under this definition, under the

12    definition of "heavy weapons"?

13       A.   Well, if you talk about the definition of the "heavy weapons" --

14    well, I can tell you as military, and I can tell you as this definition

15    would include any weapons of calibre over 12.5 millimetres.  Anything

16    larger than a large calibre heavy machine-gun.  These are mortars.  Those

17    would be guns.  Those would be tanks, the self-propelled vehicles or all

18    other types of artillery and weapons.

19       Q.   I'll stop you there.  Thank you.  You mentioned mortars.  Did you

20    ever hear mortars being fired in Sarajevo, yes or no?

21       A.   Yes, I did.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Now, witness, do you remember any particular occasions

23    on which you could have heard mortars being fired while you were in the

24    PTT building, yes or no?

25       A.   Well, I heard such shots both within the building and also during

Page 17226

 1    my rounds across the positions.  That was one of my functions during the

 2    line of conflicts, and also I could see -- and I can point at the map --

 3    that the line of confrontation -- it was in this area, in this area there

 4    were some shots.  And I can tell you that from both sides I could hear

 5    mortar shellings.

 6       Q.   Witness, I'll interrupt you there.  Let's stick to the exchanges

 7    of fire or to mortars being fired.  You told me that you had the

 8    opportunity to hear mortars being fired from the PTT building.  Is that

 9    correct?  Have I understood you correctly?

10       A.   Both inside the PTT building and also when I was going in that

11    area.  I both heard and I saw.

12       Q.   But my question now concerns only what you could hear and then see

13    from the PTT building at a given point in time.  Were you able to hear

14    mortars being fired and see something from your windows which faced the

15    north, yes or no?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us what this concerns.

18       A.   Well, I can tell you only one thing, is that when we -- for more

19    than two months - and not only we but also the force of Mr. Akashi, de

20    Mello, and Victor Andreev and all others - when we all tried to make the

21    truce happen and the receive cease-fire happen.  There were cases of

22    provocations both from the Bosnian side.  And there were -- some open

23    provocations were take place, the open of fire was provocated.  And from

24    the PTT building, it was -- in that area, where there were two or three

25    instances like this I can tell you.

Page 17227

 1            On this occasion General Soubirou would meet with the commander of

 2    the corps, of the Bosnian corps, and there were several shots.  And on the

 3    Serbian side they had good intelligence, rather good artillery

 4    intelligence, which would notice such things from under the building of

 5    the PTT those things were happening.  And I can tell you that my window

 6    was facing on the side and there was -- I had a balcony and there was also

 7    a staircase, which would go down to the back door or it was also called

 8    the back staircase.  And there there is always a French soldier on duty

 9    from the commander's corps and he was always observing these things.  And

10    after these shellings I remember there was a time about 2100 or 2000 or

11    8.00 p.m. or 9.00 p.m., when the car came and within about 400 metres from

12    the PTT and fired -- and made an assault -- and made a mortar shot towards

13    the Serbian side, and immediately that soldier knocked on my door and

14    said, "Excuse me, sir.  We have such a situation."  And I saw a car

15    leaving.

16            And I am saying that this was a purely Bosnian thing because

17    closer to PTT -- we had PTT security from the UN side and also further on

18    there were police stations.  That is why no cars, civilian or any other

19    type of cars, could be operational in that area at that hour.

20       Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  You used the term "a car," a vehicle.  Did you

21    see that vehicle with your own eyes?  I'm talking about the vehicle

22    connected with the mortar being fired.  Yes or no?

23       A.   I saw a car leaving.  It was a Toyota.  It was a pick-up type of a

24    car.  I didn't see the fire -- actually, I didn't see the fire from that

25    car, but that was the only car on the street and that was leaving from

Page 17228

 1    that side.  And then the commandant came and nothing could be found on the

 2    spot from which such a shot could be done.  Then the only possibility that

 3    such a shot could have been fired from within the car.

 4       Q.   How much time went by from the moment you saw that vehicle and the

 5    firing of the mortar, roughly?

 6       A.   Well, the observation was constantly held, and they were -- there

 7    was a person on duty who was taking observations, so that person that,

 8    soldier, made the observation and then he would run to my door.  I think

 9    it would take about 30 seconds to come to my door and knock at the door.

10    Then I'd come to open the door.  It would be about 30 seconds.  He said,

11    "Sir, I heard a shot."  Then he was speaking French.  He didn't speak any

12    English.  And then he pointed to me at that car, and I saw the car

13    leaving.  The car had lights off.

14       Q.   Witness, thank you.  At the spot that you were observing, was

15    there anything else perhaps?  That is, any fixed mortars that may have

16    been there?  Yes or no?

17            Let me rephrase the question.  The moment the vehicle left the

18    scene, did you see on the spot where it had been any weapon, yes or no?

19       A.   I did not see anything.

20       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, you now have this map to your left

21    in front of you.  Could you please indicate to us the places that you

22    mentioned as being especially badly destroyed at the time.  First of all,

23    pointing them out with the pointer.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And if we could move the

25    picture to the south a little bit and enlarge it.

Page 17229

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I could say that --

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] More, more.  Further down,

 3    please.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, speaking about the badly

 5    destroyed -- the series of destructions, I could tell you that they took

 6    place in that area, that's road toward their field.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is making a circle

 8    round the area called Nedzarici.

 9       A.   Well, there are some private residential houses.  Well, it's hard

10    for me to name the district because I can't see the name of the district

11    here.  But here is the road from this intersection towards the entrance to

12    the air field.  All these private houses were destroyed.  The area of

13    Ilidza right here, was also destroyed.  There were serious destructions in

14    this area.  A major destruction also took place in the area of --

15       Q.   You are not finding your way on this map.  We'll give you another

16    map straight away.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But for the transcript, the

18    witness has also pointed on the map to the area of Ilidza, which is to the

19    left, more to the left.

20       A.   Yes.  In this area there was the line of contact --

21       Q.   Witness, so as not to waste time, I'll interrupt you there.  I'd

22    like to show you --

23            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, the Defence counsel was in fact

24    leading the witness.  At the time he mentioned the word "Ilidza," the

25    witness was not pointing to that area.  In fact, he was just roaming

Page 17230

 1    around all over the map.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just try to shortcut this.  The witness started

 3    indicating the area which is indicated Ilidza, and then later on he also

 4    pointed at an area just north of what seems to be a yellow major road just

 5    north of the name Ilidza in red, just as he pointed previously when

 6    Mr. Piletta-Zanin was referring to Nedzarici, to a wider area but of which

 7    the centre reads in the map as "Stupsko Brdo" two times and "Stupsko Brdo"

 8    again, that creates approximately a circle, just south of a major

 9    intersection indicated in yellow colour.

10            Please proceed.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12            Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, we are going to

13    distribute the second part of this map.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  D1820.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Thank you, madam.

16       Q.   Witness, briefly, do you recognise this map, yes or no?

17       A.   Yes, I do.

18       Q.   Thank you.  Could you please focus on this map, if you can.  And

19    if you can see the area indicating the zones which in your opinion may

20    have been destroyed to a major extent.

21       A.   Well, to a major extent I can tell you that was destroyed the zone

22    of Grbavica.  In this -- on this side of the Miljacka River.  And then on

23    the other bank of the Miljacka River, there was the line of separation --

24    the zone of separation between the Bosnian and Serbian troops.  That was

25    the line of contact.  And next to the cemetery there were major

Page 17231

 1    destructions.

 2       Q.   I'm going to stop you there.  I do apologise.  The witness is

 3    pointing with his pointer to the Grbavica area situated to the south of

 4    the Miljacka River, that is, the area that is indicated on the map with

 5    the word "Grbavica," close to the symbol of a hospital.

 6            Witness, since you also mentioned here the front line along the

 7    river, I'd like to ask you another question:  Do you know or did you know

 8    at the time whether in the town of Sarajevo on the side of the presidency

 9    forces there were factories or workshops producing weapons?

10       A.   According to the data which we had, we knew that there were two or

11    three workshops which were producing mortar mines and guns, mortar shells

12    and tubes.  I cannot tell you specifically, but that's what we heard.  I

13    cannot confirm that or overrule that, although these things were spoken

14    about.

15       Q.   Thank you.  When you say that you heard about them, what were your

16    sources of information?

17       A.   Well, the UN and the staff of the battalions and both the French

18    and the Ukrainian and other battalions, next to them we could see a lot of

19    people who were feeding on them, those people who had no work, no means

20    for survival.  That is why personal contact was always established with

21    people -- with such people.  Confidential relationships were established

22    as well.  And probably that's where the French battalion -- there were

23    some intelligence officers working in such milieus, and I believe that

24    they received such information from such sources, which was later reported

25    at different levels.  But I cannot tell you who and where specifically he

Page 17232

 1    got such information.  I believe that such workshops did not require any

 2    specific equipment to be established.  I think it takes about two or three

 3    drilling machines, and that's about it.  You don't need anything else, and

 4    I guess you just need to relocate it -- you can relocate it in two or

 5    three hours easily.

 6       Q.   Very well.  Witness, leaving aside for a moment this question of

 7    weapons workshop, I should like to come back to the question regarding

 8    destruction.  Apart from the area of Grbavica that you have just

 9    mentioned, did you have occasion to see other areas close to Sarajevo on

10    the Serb side which were also destroyed, yes or no?

11       A.   Well, practically pursuant to my job functions, once a week I

12    would go around the whole front line from both sides, both from within and

13    from the outside, both from -- in those areas and from the side of the

14    Serbian party.  The destruction on the line of contact was from both

15    sides.  That is why to say -- some destruction I don't know what to say.

16    So some buildings were destroyed indeed.  Those buildings which were out

17    of range of mortar or tank fire, those buildings were intact.  Well, I can

18    tell you that from both sides there were some destructions.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Before we take the break, I think it will be at half

20    past 3.00 or perhaps later, at a quarter to 4.00.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Quarter to 4.00.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In that case, we can continue.

23       Q.   When you speak about artillery, do you have -- could you give us

24    an example of the spot that was destroyed that was relatively far from the

25    front line.  And I am referring to the Serbian side.

Page 17233

 1       A.   The basis of our visits to the Serbian side were the requests and

 2    protests made by the Bosnian side.  They complained that there was

 3    shelling going on and various other things, and this is why we would go to

 4    the Serbian side in order to resolve the issue on putting an end to such

 5    incidents, such as shelling and so on.  This is why I visited the Serbian

 6    side more than once.  I visited their hospital, which was in a totally

 7    destroyed village, quite far from the front line, some 12 to 15

 8    kilometres, in fact.  I was shown that place.

 9       Q.   I apologise for doing so.  No, no.  I have to interrupt you for

10    reasons of time.  Do you know the name of that place, of that location,

11    locality?

12       A.   To tell you the truth, I don't remember it now.  All I remember is

13    that there was the only -- the only building that was left intact there

14    was either a school or a church, and they set up a hospital there with

15    some 60 patients.  I remember that there was a little girl there without

16    legs, and I remember that during my visit there was a surgery -- a man was

17    operated on who had an abdomenal wound.  The people that worked there were

18    a lady from France and a French physician as well, who were members of

19    Medecins Sans Frontieres.  They worked there as volunteers.  They were she

20    would during their work. They basically --

21       Q.   Could you on either of these maps that are to your left pinpoint

22    this particular spot on the map, or at least the direction in which it

23    could be found.

24       A.   This was along the road leading to Pale in the Serbian territory.

25    It was in that direction, but I can't tell you exactly where because I

Page 17234

 1    simply don't remember.

 2       Q.   Very well.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness mentioned on the

 4    map to the south the road leading towards the municipality of Pale.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much, witness.  I'll come back now to purely

 6    technical questions.  Did you have occasion to see in Sarajevo or in its

 7    environs mortar craters?  Please answer with a yes or no.  Mortar craters.

 8       A.   You mean the craters?  Yes, certainly I saw them.  There were many

 9    craters, on both sides.  The war went on.  People were attacking each

10    other, so there certainly were craters.

11       Q.   Thank you.  Did you have occasion to see mortar craters in other

12    places outside Sarajevo during your personal military experiences, yes or

13    no?

14       A.   Certainly.  I did.

15       Q.   Thank you.  On the basis of this personal experience that you had,

16    both in Sarajevo and elsewhere, did you ever see during your personal

17    experience a crater left by a mortar which contained within it, dug into

18    the soil, hard soil, dug into hard soil, the final part of the mortar

19    known as the stabiliser, yes or no?

20       A.   If I understood you well, are you in fact referring to stabiliser

21    that are visible from the ground, that remained visible and are stuck in

22    the ground?  Am I understanding you well?

23       Q.   My question is the following:  We are talking about a hard surface

24    like asphalt.  We are talking about what is called a stabiliser, that is,

25    the tail of a shell.  Is it possible -- can you tell us, on the basis of

Page 17235

 1    your experience, whether you have ever seen a crater that contained the

 2    stabiliser dug into the ground at the bottom of the crater itself?  Yes or

 3    no?  Have you understood the question?

 4       A.   Yes.  I'm familiar with that phenomenon, and I saw it several

 5    times.  However, those were shellings with mortars used in training,

 6    without explosive material in it.  Stabilisers can fall as far as 5 to 7

 7    metres from the crater, depending on the angle of fire, also depending on

 8    the calibre of the shell, the distance from which it was fired.  If it

 9    remains visible there, that means that there was no explosion at that

10    location.

11       Q.   I would like to make things quite clear.  We are reading in the

12    transcript that you did see this phenomenon several time; however, only

13    during training, when firing was done without explosive material.  Is that

14    how I should understand your testimony?

15            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object.  The witness said "I'm

16    familiar with the phenomenon."  He didn't say he had seen.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  When you said that you're familiar, does that mean

18    that you have seen such stabiliser fins embedded in the ground?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only in Yugoslavia, but in other

20    hot spots where I went on tour of duty I saw artillery fire, mortar fire,

21    and let me just explain this.  When there is an explosion, a shell

22    explosion, then stabiliser cannot remain in the ground.  It cannot get

23    stuck in the ground.  And this can be verified very easily.  If you fire

24    in a training field ten shells from a mortar, you could see this for

25    yourselves.  Only it would be as likely to happen as somebody surviving

Page 17236

 1    the airplane crash from 10.000 metres.  I personally don't believe this to

 2    be possible.  The stabilisers can remain visible only if this is a

 3    training shell, a training shell that penetrates the ground and the

 4    stabiliser remains visible in the ground.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  My question to you was whether you had seen this

 6    stabiliser fins in the ground as a result of a training session, whether

 7    this was your personal observation.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When using training shell, I saw

 9    this once when I was undergoing training myself and a training shell was

10    used without explosion material in it.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I see.

12            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps you could find a suitable moment to have

15    a break.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.  Perhaps that moment

17    could be now, as we are moving to another line of questioning later on.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  The Trial Chamber will adjourn until quarter past

19    4.00.

20                          --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  One

24    of the booths asked me to make longer breaks for technical reasons.  I

25    just wanted to inform you of this.

Page 17237

 1       Q.   Witness, does the name Zetra, does it mean anything to you?  Does

 2    it remind you of anything?

 3       A.   Well, this is an area in Sarajevo.

 4       Q.   Very well.  Could you please, if it's possible for you to indicate

 5    this on one of the maps, could you point to it.  But I should add that we

 6    need the assistance of the usher.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please show the west

 9    map, that is to say, the number -- yes, you've got it.  You've got it.

10       Q.   Witness, could you point to the place called Zetra on this map.

11       A.   [Indicates].

12       Q.   Thank you.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness complied and he

14    pointed to a building bearing the name Zetra close to the sports complex

15    in Sarajevo.

16       Q.   Witness, what can you tell us about incidents that may have

17    happened close to this area called Zetra and incidents that you witnessed?

18       A.   Well, in the area of Zetra, I can tell you that the French

19    battalion was stationed.  It was stationed right in that very building

20    where an ice skating rink was located for figure skating during the

21    Olympics.  And from the stadium in the area of Zetra, we were dispatching

22    helicopters and we were receiving helicopters with civilian population

23    from the area of Gorazde, those who were wounded.  So when we came there,

24    we organised there some aid and further treatments and dispatchment from

25    the area of Sarajevo.

Page 17238

 1            In the area of Zetra, I can tell you that I came to visit that

 2    battalion six or eight times.  During my service there, I can tell you

 3    that there were two French battalions.  One was the marine battalion.  I

 4    don't remember its exact name.  And one battalion was from the Foreign

 5    Legion, the French Foreign Legion.  One French soldier was wounded in the

 6    area of Zetra, and this was practically my time.  I had an encounter with

 7    the commander of the battalion.  And according to the order from General

 8    Soubirou, I was inspecting the positions and posts, and this soldier was

 9    wounded by sniper fire.  At the time pursuant to an order from General

10    Soubirou, in every battalion special anti-sniper groups were established.

11       Q.   Witness, I'll stop you there.  And it's just for the sake of

12    time.  You said that this soldier was wounded by sniper fire.  Could you

13    please use the pointer.  And if you know this, could you indicate the

14    direction of fire.

15       A.   Well, if I had an exact plan of the location of that battalion at

16    the moment, then I could.  But at the moment I can tell you only that we

17    would come -- or I should say I would come to the battalion by this road.

18    There was an entrance here.  And this was the entrance to the battalion.

19    And in front of it --

20       Q.   Witness, I apologise.  I'd appreciate it if you could use the

21    pointer to indicate the direction of fire.  Where did the fire come from,

22    on the basis of what you were able to see or on the basis of what you were

23    able to discover later on.

24       A.   Well, the sniper fire was being led from this direction, I should

25    say, the south-east direction.

Page 17239

 1            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge the image.

 3    Thank you.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

 5            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, the basis of this witness's

 6    knowledge on this fact has not been established.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you --

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Witness, you just pointed to a direction.  I'll go back to that.

11    But what personal knowledge do you have of this?  How did you know this?

12    Why?  Et cetera.

13       A.   Well, together with the commander of the battalion, we were

14    staying in his office, and from his office he had -- before the Olympics

15    there was a restaurant constructed.  Which was not operational, of course,

16    in those days but it was intact.  It was not ruined.  And it was being

17    used by the French battalion as a canteen.  And on top of the canteen,

18    there was a terrace.  If I may say so, it had a small fence made of

19    bricks.  It was like a fence -- it was used for observation, as an

20    observation place for those who would come there.  We immediately came to

21    that terrace, and on that terrace there was the anti-sniper group, and

22    there were two French soldiers, one observer with binoculars and one had a

23    rifle, anti-sniper French rifle with a tripod, a large calibre.  And the

24    sniper, according to the report, was eliminated.

25       Q.   Very well.  Could you now tell us, from what direction fire was

Page 17240

 1    opened.  Could you indicate this.  Could you show us on the map.

 2       A.   Well, I cannot tell you from exactly where the fire was coming,

 3    but I can tell you exactly that the anti-sniper group with a special

 4    directional gun was staying at this place.

 5       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to an

 7    arch, which starts at Zetra and extends in a south-westerly direction.

 8    Thank you.

 9       Q.   Witness, could you please take a felt tip that the usher will

10    provide you with.

11            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

13            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  The witness pointed south-easterly view --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Easterly.  Yes.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's exact.  That's exact.

16    I apologise.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19       Q.   Witness, could you please use the felt tip to trace the arch that

20    you mentioned, what we call the firing arch.

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   Thank you.  We will now concentrate on other questions.  We no

23    longer need the map at this stage.  As assistant to General Soubirou, did

24    you ever see a written protest which was forwarded directly to General

25    Galic concerning one or several sniping incidents, yes or no?

Page 17241

 1       A.   No, I have not seen them.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, as General Soubirou's direct assistant, if

 3    such form of protest had been lodged, would you have been in a position to

 4    be aware of this fact, yes or no?

 5       A.   Well, some issues were beyond my competence.  But if such a

 6    written protest were presented, then I would have known about this for

 7    sure because General Soubirou was holding daily meetings and such protests

 8    or demarches were always presented to officers on duty.  As a rule, all

 9    the protests for both parties were transmitted through the radio station

10    or through the telephone communication or through the radio station.  This

11    was the main operational chain of communication.

12       Q.   I'll stop you there.  Thank you, witness.  Should I understand

13    that for the six months or more that you spent in Sarajevo you never saw

14    such written protests at your level?  Is that correct?

15       A.   Well, I cannot tell you exactly at the moment because a lot of

16    operational paperwork was -- had been taken place, and quite possibly one

17    of the paragraphs in one of the papers could be -- could be containing

18    some kind of a protest.  That's quite possible.  But I cannot tell if

19    there were some official protests or something like that.

20       Q.   One question to you, witness:  Were you ever present at meetings

21    with General Galic during which he would have been forwarded such written

22    protests concerning one or more sniping incidents, precise and identified

23    sniping incidents?

24       A.   No.  Specifically in the written form I never saw such protests in

25    meetings with General Galic.

Page 17242

 1       Q.   Witness, we are now going to move on to another subject.  In

 2    general terms, how would you describe the personality and the competence

 3    of General Soubirou?

 4       A.   Well, first of all, from my side this would not be very ethical to

 5    do that because I was his deputy.  But I can tell you that General

 6    Soubirou was very experienced and well prepared general and he had vast

 7    combat experience and vast experience in running the troops.  He was

 8    decisive.  He would take decisions quickly and adequately.  He was not

 9    frightened.  Thank you.

10       Q.   As a result, should I infer from this that if -- I'll withdraw

11    that question and rephrase it.

12            Should I infer from this that if there were facts which justified

13    a protest to be made to General Galic, then General Soubirou would not

14    have failed to react?

15       A.   Well, I cannot recall at the moment such instances.  I know that

16    after the shelling of Sarajevo he would go to General Galic and General

17    Soubirou would talk to him.  But whether this was on paper or not, I

18    cannot tell you this.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, with the assistance of the usher, I would now

20    like to show you an exhibit.  The number is 1821.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there is an R number on the

22    document.  I don't know whether this document is disclosed to the Defence

23    by the Prosecution and whether this would cause the -- any party to ask

24    for --

25            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, our case manager is checking

Page 17243

 1    right now.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can't see a

 3    name.  I can't see any names that would cause a problem.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  But it might be a document -- a document that needs

 5    protection for other reasons.

 6            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It has been lifted, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  It has been lifted.  Okay.  Please proceed.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9       Q.   Witness, first of all, do you recognise such documents?  Do you

10    recognise the form?

11       A.   Yes, I do.  This is a general document.

12       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, I would like to read the second paragraph

13    under number 1.  This is what we are interested in, and it concerns the

14    question that I shall put to you.  I'll now quote in English:  [In

15    English] "Areas most affected were the centre of town GR 9059, Stup GR

16    8459, Grbavica GR 9059.  Tank activity was observed in GR 855, and I think

17    "9" or "8."

18            "The majority of the activity is believed to have been directed at

19    front line areas approximately 80 per cent."

20            [Interpretation] In this text, we can see that tank activity has

21    been mentioned. Witness, did you see any tanks in Sarajevo?  And if so,

22    where?

23       A.   Well, the term "tank activity" does not signify the usage of

24    tanks.  Tank activity is -- signifies that tanks were moving in that

25    area.  An observer who witnessed that reports in his report that observed

Page 17244

 1    some tank activity.  This does not signify that he observed firing from

 2    tanks.

 3       Q.   Yes.  I didn't mention fire being opened from tanks.  My question

 4    is whether you yourself saw any tanks.  And if you did, where did you see

 5    them?

 6       A.   I saw two or three times tanks inside Sarajevo.

 7       Q.   Very well.  Could you tell us where you saw these tanks.

 8       A.   In the area of Ilidza.

 9       Q.   Did you see any in the centre of the town, or rather, in the part

10    of the town in the so-called presidency's hands?

11       A.   To be honest, I don't remember.

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, the question has been answered.

13    I withdraw that.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then please proceed.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16       Q.   A minute ago you said -- you mentioned Zetra, which is located

17    close to the Kosovo area.  Do you know if there were any heavy weapons

18    near the Kosovo zone, yes or no?

19       A.   I cannot tell you specifically about Kosovo.

20       Q.   In that case, I'm going to ask the usher for his assistance.  He

21    will show you a second exhibit, number 1822.  Thank you.

22            Do you recognise the form of this document, yes or no?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Witness, I'm going to read the first paragraph to you, under item

25    1, "General assessment."  And I quote:  [In English] "Sarajevo remains

Page 17245

 1    unstable.  The shelling was again at a relatively low level.  Areas

 2    shelled that are considered on/near the confrontation line were Stup GR

 3    8458), Raljovac (GR 8460), and Vogosca (GR 8764, 8765 - Vice 9765, BSA

 4    side)."

 5            [Interpretation] Witness, with regard to these locations, could

 6    you, first of all, confirm what has been stated in these two -- in these

 7    several lines, that is to say, the shelling of these locations.

 8       A.   Shelling of those areas -- when there is a shelling going on, be

 9    it daytime or night-time, then usually the areas close to the front line

10    are shelled, and they could have fired shells into the air.  But

11    regardless of that, observers would record that and report that there was

12    a shelling going on.  Therefore, these were daily typical reports.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, was there any possibility of error in the

14    registration of these shellings and activities which led up to this

15    report?

16       A.   Yes, of course.

17       Q.   What do you mean by that?

18       A.   It is very difficult to specify the source of fire and the

19    direction of it.  Therefore, an observer could have made a mistake, the

20    observer that recorded the fire.  The observer usually indicates just the

21    area of fire.  But in order to pinpoint it accurately, an observer -- it

22    would have to be a trace bullet in order to pinpoint the exact area or

23    source of fire.  If any other ammunition was used, it would be very

24    difficult to calculate that.

25       Q.   With respect to this type of document, witness, we frequently come

Page 17246

 1    across the expression "mixed rounds."  Could you tell us in technical

 2    terms, military technical terms, what was covered under this term "mixed

 3    rounds."

 4       A.   I can't tell you what this means.  It could mean that an observer

 5    was not very competent, the one that used the mixed rounds phrase.  It

 6    could mean that there was mortar and gunfire at the same time, and perhaps

 7    this term was used when there was both mortar and gunfire simultaneously.

 8       Q.   So, witness, there is no classical or uniform technical definition

 9    of the expression that I have just used.

10       A.   I can't say.

11       Q.   Thank you.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would now like with the

13    assistance of the usher once again to show the witness Exhibit 1823,

14    please.  Thank you.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, looking at the clock, I see that

16    you have approximately 10 to 15 minutes left from the time estimate you

17    gave.  And if I look at the list of exhibits, then of course I am aware

18    that you started only in the latter part of the examination of the witness

19    with the exhibits.  But would you please stick to your estimates, as far

20    as time is concerned.  Please proceed.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As always, Mr. President.

22    Thank you.

23       Q.   Witness, since time is counted, it would be kind enough if you

24    could try and answer with a yes or no as far as possible.

25            First of all, do you see the period covered by this exhibit, and

Page 17247

 1    could you read it out for us?  It is the third line of the document.

 2       A.   This document pertains to the period from the 10th to 11th of

 3    December, 1994.

 4       Q.   Thank you very much.  Could you please look at the very first line

 5    and read -- or rather, it will be the second line, and read the date,

 6    please.

 7       A.   January 1994.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Was it frequent for such apparent errors, if it is an

 9    error, occur on such documents, yes or no?

10       A.   No, not frequently.  However, it did happen occasionally.

11       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, let us concentrate now on the first paragraph

12    of point 1, "General assessment."  Once again, and I shall quote what it

13    contains in English now.  [In English] "-- the past 24 hours have been a

14    steady increase in the general level of activity, particularly in the use

15    of indirect fire weapons on both sides.  Areas most affected have been

16    Stup GR 8459, Central Sarajevo GRS 9059, 9159, Zuc all along the -- I

17    think, confrontation line.  Grbavica and Alipasin Most, GR 8559, 8659."

18            [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Now, with respect to indirect

19    weapons, could you tell us, if you know, what were the calibres that the

20    presidency forces had at their disposal.  And we're talking of mortars.

21       A.   They had 40-millimetre mortars, 66-millimetre mortars.  I think

22    they also had 82-millimetre mortars and also 120-millimetre ones.

23       Q.   Thank you.  I think -- no, I'll stay with this document for a

24    little longer.  This document in the third paragraph of point 1 speaks of

25    snipers, Bosnian snipers.  My question is the following:  Did you ever

Page 17248

 1    hear within the framework of your military activities in Sarajevo that

 2    presidency snipers were used by presidency forces?  My question first.

 3    Yes or no?

 4       A.   Snipers were used on both sides, both by the Bosnian side and the

 5    Serbian side.

 6       Q.   Very well.  Did you ever hear mention made of the use by

 7    presidency forces of snipers against targets situated within the lines

 8    controlled by the presidency forces, yes or no?

 9       A.   I didn't quite understand.  Do you mean to say that the Bosnian

10    snipers fired on targets that were located in their territory?  Is that

11    what you mean?

12       Q.   That was my question, yes, whether you ever heard such things

13    being mentioned.  Yes or no?

14       A.   First of all, this was a war that could be described as a

15    semi-guerilla war, guerilla war being fought by the Bosnian side.  It was

16    very difficult to exercise control over any group of people.  It was quite

17    possible for any group of people to shoot within their own territory.  If

18    they had an argument amongst themselves, they could have fired -- or

19    opened fire within their own territory.  There were cases like that, not

20    only on the Bosnian side but also on the Serbian side.

21       Q.   Thank you, witness.  I should now like to go back to something I

22    mentioned a moment ago, with regard to the professionalism of General

23    Soubirou.  I shall read to you something that I have already given to the

24    booth, which is a document originating from the Prosecution.  And please

25    bear in mind what I'm reading conforms with what I -- what is written.

Page 17249

 1    General Soubirou said in an interview --

 2            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May we see a copy of the document.  We haven't

 3    received a copy of this document.

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I have a copy

 5    here.  It is Exhibit ERN 01100499.  And we also have a copy for the

 6    Chamber, but we do not intend to tender this into evidence.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The sentence that I would like

10    to read --

11            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object, Mr. President.  Informing the witness

12    that this document originated from the Prosecution.  I don't know what

13    this document is.  It's just a --

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just withdrew that

15    statement, but we're still speaking about the same document.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Prosecution no longer

18    recognises its documents, and this, I find, disturbing for the future.

19            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  My point is this document

20    has not been tendered by the Prosecution by way of evidence.  That's

21    completely different.  This may have been an interview conducted by the

22    OTP.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's be -- let's be practical.  I do understand that

24    the Defence indicates that this is a document that has been disclosed to

25    the Defence by the Prosecution and is referring to the number.  I also

Page 17250

 1    understand that the document will not be tendered into evidence.  So

 2    therefore, unless there's any specific part, please, you could,

 3    Mr. Piletta-Zanin, draw out and shift to a certain part.  But why not just

 4    put a question apart from any document.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is only a single

 6    sentence that I would like to read.  And according to the old rule that is

 7    in force, we will save time.  And I intend to do that.  The sentence is

 8    the following -- may I do it, Mr. President?

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I --

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- There's no objection.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Usually if you use a document, even if you do not

12    tender it, it's usually on the list.  But I do not see this document on

13    the list.  Could you indicate just by -- so that we can first read and

14    also Ms. Mahindaratne can read the part that you would like to quote --

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the first sentence,

16    Mr. President, the first line.

17            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President --

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which is one and a half lines

19    long.

20            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  The part that starts with "I got."  Yes.

22            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be

23    asked to remove his headphones for this portion.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the witness does understand some English.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I won't quote it.  I won't

Page 17251

 1    quote it, Mr. President.  I won't quote from this document.

 2       Q.   Witness, General Soubirou said something to this effect:  Speaking

 3    of General Galic, he said, probably in French, that I have the impression

 4    that he was removed because he was not hard enough, because he tended to

 5    demonstrate compassion.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you say that you're not

 9    quoting, I take it that you do not quote.  So please move to your next

10    subject.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I didn't

12    quote.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  You have almost literally repeated what is said

14    there, and that is unfair after you indicated that you would not quote,

15    because if you change one or two irrelevant words and say I'm not quoting

16    any more, then you are playing tricks.  And please move to your next

17    subject.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to.

19       Q.   Do you know if General Galic was removed from his position for any

20    particular reason?

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked you to move to your next

22    subject and not to stay with the same subject.  Please proceed.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.  Let

24    me consult with my colleague.

25            Wait, please.

Page 17252

 1                          [Defence counsel confer]

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will proceed

 3    as follows.  Unfortunately, we believed that we had the possibility to

 4    prove something that we were not authorised by your Chamber, though it was

 5    a very important point.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just briefly respond to that.

 7            And I will ask the witness to take off -- do you understand any

 8    French?

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Could you take off your headphones.

11            THE WITNESS:  [Witness complies]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] You had the opportunity

13    to ask this witness whether --

14            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.  Your pardon for interrupting.

15    The witness can read English, so perhaps he --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  [In English] Oh, yes.  Yes.  Then we have --

17    Mr. Usher, could you please change the channel of the witness.

18            [Interpretation] The Defence did have the opportunity to ask the

19    witness whether he knew the reasons why General Galic was removed from his

20    position and had the opportunity to confront the witness with a reply that

21    may have been given by another person, that is, General Soubirou.  So you

22    did have the opportunity to do this in a way that would not lead the

23    witness towards a particular answer, and you did not take advantage of

24    that opportunity but you chose to follow a path which is not acceptable.

25    Therefore, will you please continue.

Page 17253

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will continue,

 2    Mr. President.  Thank you.  I think, nevertheless, it is sometimes the

 3    duty of the attorney without seeking confrontation to state clearly that

 4    the Defence considers that it is in a position not to be able to continue

 5    and that its rights have been violated, and we say so with great respect.

 6    And therefore, we have no further questions.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may put his headphones on again.

 8            Ms. Mahindaratne, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the

 9    witness or at least to start to cross-examine the witness?

10            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  We -- we should definitely

11    be able to start and perhaps might conclude today itself.  But may I seek

12    a very short recess before we start, Mr. President?

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14                          [Trial Chamber confers]

15            JUDGE ORIE:  How many minutes would you need?  Five minutes? Would

16    that be --

17            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Ten minutes, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Ten minutes?  Let me just have a look at the clock,

19    if we would have a break for ten minutes now.  That would bring us to

20    quarter past 5.00.  That would be too long.

21            Perhaps we will have the shorter break now and grant 20 minutes.

22    We'll resume at 25 minutes past 5.00 and have no other break any more.

23            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                          --- Recess taken at 5.06 p.m.

25                          --- On resuming at 5.28 p.m.

Page 17254

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  You'll now be examined by counsel for the

 2    Prosecution.

 3            Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready?

 4            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6                          Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 7       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 8       A.   Good sir.

 9            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown Exhibit D1823.

10       Q.   Sir, this document was shown to you by learned Defence counsel and

11    you examined it.  Would you please examine paragraph 2, which I will read

12    to you.  "Bosnian school came under direct mortar fire at 1030 hours

13    resulting in a number of casualties."  It's reported in those words in

14    this document.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  You're referring to paragraph 1, I take it,

16    Ms. Mahindaratne?

17            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  Paragraph 1, which is -- 2

18    I did say, yes.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  But then the second linear.

20            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm referring to paragraph

21    1.  I beg your pardon, Mr. President.

22       Q.   Paragraph 1, and the second sentence.  It's reported to such

23    effect.

24            Now, during your period as deputy commander for sector Sarajevo,

25    were you privy such incidents?  Did you learn about such incidents or did

Page 17255

 1    you read reports about civilians being subject to direct mortar fire in

 2    this manner?

 3       A.   Well, I would like to clarify something here.  It was not a school

 4    which was -- which came under direct mortar fire.  And mine --

 5       Q.   -- Interrupt you.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There's a rule which says that

10    while a witness is about to give information, he should not be

11    interrupted.  And this time I see that he was interrupted just as when he

12    was of his own accord going to give information about the school, which

13    seems to me to be rather important.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just first read the question again.

15            Yes, you may proceed your answer.

16            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  My objection was based on the fact that I asked

17    him a completely different question.  I asked the witness --

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But part -- the part you read was, "The Bosnian

19    school came under direct mortar fire."  Part of your question was to learn

20    about such incidents or did you read reports about civilians being subject

21    to mortar fire in this manner?  So you're referring to what is described

22    in the report.  And if the witness wants to explain what he understands

23    the report would be.  Otherwise, he cannot answer the question about such

24    incidents.

25            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.

Page 17256

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may proceed with your answer.  You started

 2    telling us that you'd like to clarify something, and you said it was not a

 3    school which was -- which came under the direct mortar fire.  Could you

 4    please there continue your answer.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A mortar mine detonated on a

 6    playground not far from a school, and at that moment there were children

 7    playing there, and there were some casualties among the children.  There

 8    were several killed and several wounded.  Such reports when civilians were

 9    subjected to mortar or artillery fire or gunfire or rifle fire or sniper

10    fire, I heard about them and I read about such things, and there were

11    casualties both from the Serbian side and the Bosnian side.

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

13       Q.   Thank you, witness.  If I take you back to paragraph 3 on that

14    same document.  I will read it to you.  It states:  "Attacks on UN

15    personnel, equipment --"  And then thereafter it says:  "A number of small

16    arms rounds hit the PTT building during the night.  One of them

17    penetrating the UN HCR radio room window narrowly missing a civilian."

18            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I withdraw that, Mr. President.  I withdraw

19    that.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown document -- Exhibit

22    number 1822 -- I'm sorry, I think it's 1821.

23       Q.   If I could take you back to the final paragraph.  It's paragraph

24    number 1, but the last sentence.  It's recorded:  "Small arms activity was

25    evident around the PTT building, and on two occasions rounds hit the

Page 17257

 1    building itself.  One round entered the UNHCR radio room narrowly missing

 2    a civilian, and there is a record of rounds.  Bosnian in, 105 mixed

 3    rounds; Bosnian out, 25 mortar; Serbian in, five rounds; Serbian out, 61

 4    mixed rounds," says such a report.

 5            Sir, would you agree with me that generally, like this type of

 6    report, you could agree that the outgoing rounds from the Serbian sector

 7    is far in excess of the incoming rounds to the Serbian sector?

 8       A.   Well, it is very difficult to tell you specifically with regard to

 9    what is meant by "in" and "out," because on one day there could be

10    outgoing shells from the Serbian side.  On the other day, a lot could be

11    coming from the Bosnian side.  So this was a war taking place.  It was not

12    just walking around.  The fact that PTT was being shot at, this is true.

13    My room was shot at, I can tell you.  A large-calibre bullet penetrated

14    through my wall.  It was a direct penetration.  It went across my room and

15    hit the opposite wall.  This is the answer to your question, I believe.

16       Q.   How would you conclude based on this particular report which has

17    been shown to you by the Defence, at least with regard to this particular

18    day on which -- with regard to which this report has been issued?

19       A.   Well, I cannot tell you anything on this issue for the reason that

20    at that moment I was no longer in the Sarajevo sector.

21       Q.   Sir, I'm merely asking you to respond on this report.  Now, you

22    did in fact -- your testimony was that you were in -- you were the deputy

23    commander of sector Sarajevo from November 1993 to July 1994.  This report

24    is for the period -- for the date 11th January, 1994, so you were in fact

25    still the deputy commander sector Sarajevo.  Isn't that the case?

Page 17258

 1       A.   Yes, this is so.  But I can tell you that the work of a deputy

 2    commander did not imply only my constant stay in the building of PTT.  I

 3    was on a mission in Zuc.  I was on a mission in Gorazde.  I was head of

 4    those missions, and I could be for two or three weeks away from that

 5    building, if you understand me.  So I simply do not recall this incident

 6    when this was taking place.  There were firings going on quite often, and

 7    nobody took that seriously.  One shell was shot at PTT from the firearms.

 8    Well, nobody paid much attention to that.  All the windows which were

 9    facing on the outside from the PTT building were blocked by sacks with

10    sand.

11       Q.   If I may interrupt you, sir.  I'm under a time constraint.  Is it

12    your position, then, that you cannot speak to the incidents about which

13    the reports -- the reports relate to which were shown to you by the

14    Defence?  And I'm referring to documents D1821, 1822, 1823.  Is it then

15    your position that you do not know personally about those incidents, that

16    you have no recollection of those incidents?  That's your position?

17       A.   No.  Please understand me correctly.  The fact that a shot came to

18    the window of the radio room does not signify that this is a big incident

19    which took place.  This just means that it was noted in the daily report.

20    And two days later nobody would even remember it.

21       Q.   If that be the case, sir, how is it that when I questioned you

22    about the incident where a Bosnian school had come under fire, which was

23    referred to in document number 1823, you seemed to remember that

24    particular incident in vivid detail, to state -- to give, in fact, details

25    about that particular incident?  How is it that you remember about that

Page 17259

 1    particular incident and not the rest of it?

 2       A.   Well, when the shelling at the Alipasino field took place and

 3    children died, then about 40 minutes right after that shelling I was on

 4    the site.

 5       Q.   So you were -- you were personally a witness to the shelling of

 6    the children in Alipasino Polje.  That is your testimony?

 7       A.   I saw with my own eyes the results of the shelling.  I witnessed

 8    the results.  I did not witness the shelling, but I witnessed the results

 9    of the shelling.  I saw that the children were killed and that there were

10    children who were wounded.  I do not remember the exact number.  I think

11    about six or seven children.

12       Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'll move on to another area.

13            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown the map, I think 1820

14    and 1819.  If the witness may be shown map number 1820 first.

15       Q.   Sir, you drew a line going from north to a south-easterly

16    direction.  What did you indicate by that line?

17       A.   Well, I wanted to indicate by that line that when we and the

18    commander of the French battalion came to the anti-sniper group, then the

19    direction of the weapons of the anti-sniper group was directed in that

20    direction.

21       Q.   So in other words, that line indicates the location where the

22    anti-sniper groups were positioned.  Is that correct?  That's what you

23    meant.

24       A.   Not exactly.  A line cannot depict a location of the anti-sniper

25    group.  The line shows in which direction the weapons of the anti-sniper

Page 17260

 1    group were directed.

 2       Q.   Can you point out where the group was positioned on that line.  On

 3    which side?

 4       A.   In the barracks.

 5       Q.   And from there, it is your position the line indicates in fact

 6    where their weapons were directed at.  It was not a line of fire which you

 7    indicated.

 8       A.   No.  When we jumped out and we saw that their weapons were

 9    directed on that side, the weapons of the anti-sniper group, I mean.

10       Q.   Sir, weren't you still the deputy commander of sector Sarajevo

11    when the anti-sniper agreement was concluded on 14th August 1994?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   It was concluded by UNPROFOR with the two warring factions; isn't

14    that the case?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Were you yourself involved in the process?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Then you would be aware of -- were you aware of the fact that

19    UNPROFOR and particularly General Soubirou had to take -- there was much

20    effort on his part to convince the Serbian army to agree to the -- or to

21    concede to the agreement?  You would then have been privy to that.

22       A.   Well, practically everybody at the level of Sir Rose; Viktor

23    Andreev, who was political advisor, Diana Nikola [phoen], who was advisor

24    to the General Soubirou; General Soubirou himself; the commanders of

25    battalions, everybody was taking at their level all the efforts in order

Page 17261

 1    to convince the two parties to stop the fire and sniper activity.

 2       Q.   As part of this agreement, there were two teams called

 3    operations -- anti-sniping operations teams and anti-sniping interventions

 4    teams --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, may I first interfere for one

 6    moment.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tsynchenko, right at the beginning of your

 9    testimony you told us that you held the position in Sarajevo until July of

10    1994.  You're now asked by Ms. Mahindaratne whether you were still serving

11    in Sarajevo when an agreement was concluded at the 14th of August, 1994,

12    and you responded in the affirmative.  That's at least what I read on my

13    screen.  I have some difficulties in understanding how you can stop

14    serving in July 1994 and still serve on the 14th of August, 1994.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was not serving.  Maybe I

16    did not understand the translation or the interpretation, rather.  Let us

17    put the question again, if possible.  What was the question?

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please try to clarify

19    this with the witness.

20            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

21       Q.   Sir, are you aware of the anti-sniper agreement concluded by

22    UNPROFOR in August 1994?  Are you aware of such an agreement?

23       A.   I am aware of such an agreement because this agreement was being

24    prepared not in a couple of days.  This was work which took at least half

25    a year on both sides until this agreement came into being.  And if -- even

Page 17262

 1    if I was not there at that moment, my subordinates still were there, who

 2    later reported to me in Ukraine when I was in Ukraine.

 3       Q.   When did you leave Sarajevo?

 4       A.   I left Sarajevo in July of 1994.

 5       Q.   Would that be the case then, sir, that you were not in Sarajevo or

 6    you could not have been party or privy to the conclusion of the

 7    anti-sniper agreement which was concluded in August 1994?  Isn't that the

 8    case?

 9       A.   Yes, that's correct.

10       Q.   If that be the case, sir, how is it that you just described in

11    detail about convincing parties to enter into the agreement, so on and so

12    forth, which you just stated earlier on, when you were not in fact -- in

13    fact party to the -- or privy to this --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object for

16    two reasons:  Firstly, the witness just said that it took six months to

17    arrive at some point.  And the second reason is - and this is important -

18    we don't see why we're speaking about this agreement so much, which is

19    outside the time frame of the indictment, which goes up to August 1994, I

20    think.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  We are talking about August 1994.  But -- and let me

22    just have a look.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said it was after the 10th

24    of August, 1994, and it doesn't appear clearly -- it didn't appear clearly

25    in the English translation, I think.

Page 17263

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please rephrase your

 2    question to the extent that the witness has told us on how the parties had

 3    to be convinced of entering in such an agreement but give no detail

 4    whatsoever about the agreement itself as it finally was made and -- nor

 5    about the implementation.  Please proceed.

 6            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Sir, you said that the agreement was negotiated

 7    for about six months prior to your departure -- from about six months

 8    before you departed Sarajevo.

 9       A.   Yes, that's right.

10       Q.   To come back to my previous question, were you then aware of the

11    attempts and efforts taken by UNPROFOR to convince especially the Serbian

12    side, the Serbian army, to enter into the agreement?  Are you aware of

13    that?

14       A.   Yes, I was familiar with that.

15       Q.   In that you agree there was difficulty in getting the Serbian army

16    to agree to the anti-sniper agreement.

17       A.   I know about that.  There were difficulties not only regarding the

18    Serbian side but also regarding the Bosnian side.

19       Q.   Isn't it the case, sir, that it was specifically more difficult to

20    convince the Serbian army than the presidency forces to enter into the

21    agreement?  Isn't that the case, sir?

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

23            JUDGE ORIE:  One moment.

24            Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence knows that leading

Page 17264

 1    questions are not admissible [as interpreted].  But there is a certain way

 2    of formulating a question, something that is tendentious in the question,

 3    if we look at the other replies that the witness has already given.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Leading includes a certain tendency -- the witness

 5    has earlier responded that --

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  One moment, please.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just reading the transcript.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's just

13    one matter.  I didn't say that leading questions weren't admissible.  I

14    said the opposite.  And this is not clear in the transcript.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  The English transcript is not correct in this view

16    because you said that they were not -- you were aware that leading

17    questions in cross-examination were not inadmissible.

18            Ms. Mahindaratne, the witness testified that they had to convince

19    the parties to enter into the agreement.  I think that's the starting

20    point for your --

21            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I will withdraw that last

22    question in the interests of time.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please proceed.

24            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

25       Q.   Sir, are you aware of anti-sniper groups in existence in Sarajevo

Page 17265

 1    prior to the conclusion of the agreement just concluded in August 1994?

 2    Were there anti-sniper groups before that?

 3       A.   Anti-sniper groups were established in two French battalions prior

 4    to the conclusion of that agreement.

 5       Q.   When was that, sir?

 6       A.   I couldn't tell you exactly.  If you wish, I can give you an

 7    explanation so that things become quite clear.

 8       Q.   If I may interrupt you, sir.  Was it before you -- were there

 9    anti-sniper groups in existence when you arrived in Sarajevo, or were they

10    grouped in such manner after you arrived in Sarajevo?

11       A.   I believe that anti-sniper groups were established in each

12    battalion prior to my arrival.  I mean, the French battalions.

13       Q.   So it is your position that these groups were in existence when

14    you arrived in Sarajevo in November 1993.

15       A.   They existed.  But if you allow me, I will give you a more

16    detailed explanation.  Commander of each battalion is responsible for his

17    soldiers.  He's responsible for security of his soldiers.  Therefore,

18    there were special anti-sniper groups in French battalions from their very

19    beginning.

20       Q.   So the anti-sniper groups that you're referring to, which you say

21    existed prior to August 1994, were set up by battalions to protect the

22    personnel of the battalions.  Is that your case?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   The anti-sniper groups established after August 1994, the

25    agreement of -- which was negotiated while you were in Sarajevo, were --

Page 17266

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

 2    Objection.  We spoke about groups established after August 1994; that is

 3    to say, after the time frame in the indictment.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, could you explain to us what

 5    relevance would be of what happened after the 14th of August, 1994.

 6            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  I'm -- I was merely going

 7    to ask the witness about what was negotiated.  In fact, the groups, where

 8    they were to be located during the course of negotiation, what transpired.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  So you're talking about -- not about the agreement

10    but you're talking about the negotiations -- the content of the

11    negotiations --

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE ORIE: -- that finally led to the agreement?

14            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

16            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

17       Q.   Sir, you said you participated in the negotiations leading to the

18    anti-sniper agreement which was concluded in August after your time,

19    1994.  You did participate in the negotiations?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Then would you be able to -- are you aware of where these groups

22    were mainly to be located?  Where were the anti-sniper groups and the

23    teams were to be located?

24       A.   I don't know that.

25       Q.   I'm not asking about the exact location, but region-wise weren't

Page 17267

 1    the teams to be positioned inside the city of Sarajevo?

 2       A.   In order to understand what I'm trying to say, you have to have

 3    military education.  A group can be located today in this particular

 4    room.  Whereas, tomorrow it can be transferred to a totally different part

 5    of the town or to the front line.  Therefore, one cannot put it in the

 6    terms that you are trying to put it in.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask you to answer the question.  The question

 8    was whether during the negotiations anti-sniping groups were discussed to

 9    be positioned where, within the city or also - that's, I think, the

10    question - also on Serbian-held territory or exclusively on BiH

11    presidency-held territory.  That's the question first.  What the reasons

12    might have been for that is a different matter.  Please first answer

13    that -- respond to that question.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain to us why you can't answer this

16    question.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said.  The preparations

18    for negotiations and the agreement itself is not the same as signing the

19    agreement.  Any shelling or any sniper activity entailed us travelling to

20    Lukavica, to various other regions where we held negotiations.  The

21    negotiations were held first with the presidency forces and then with the

22    Serbian side.  And this was basically our daily activities, both of

23    General Soubirou and myself as the first deputy, as well as political

24    advisors and deputies of General Rose, so this process of negotiations

25    lasted quite a long time.

Page 17268

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  My question was:  Have anti-sniper groups been

 2    discussed to be positioned -- to be positioned at both sides of the

 3    confrontation line?  Has that been discussed?  Or has it been discussed on

 4    one side?  And if so, on what side?  I'm talking about what has been

 5    discussed, not about what finally was agreed.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.  Discussions, any

 7    discussions, were always held with both sides.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that was not my question.  My question was

 9    whether the discussions of setting up anti-sniping groups were discussed

10    as setting up anti-sniping groups on both sides of the confrontation lines

11    or just on one side of the confrontation line, and if on one side of the

12    confrontation line, on what side.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that this is

14    something that I cannot tell you, because I simply do not remember.  I

15    cannot recall the exact details.  However, I know for a fact that

16    discussions were held with both sides.  I took you to mean that you needed

17    to know the exact locations of anti-sniper groups.  I don't know that.

18    However, discussions were held -- all discussions were held with both

19    sides.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

21            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

22       Q.   Sir, I put it to you that the negotiations that led to the

23    anti-sniper agreement, which was in fact concluded in August 1994, related

24    to establishment of anti-sniping groups within the city of Sarajevo.

25       A.   Including the city of Sarajevo as well.

Page 17269

 1       Q.   So you do in fact know the locations where the groups were in

 2    fact -- in fact to be positioned.

 3       A.   No, I don't know locations.  I don't know those locations.

 4            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown the map D1820.

 5            May the map be placed on the ELMO.

 6       Q.   Sir, you indicated -- you testified about a village you visited --

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I beg your pardon, Mr. President.

 8       Q.   Sir, you spoke of a location where you visited in the Serbian

 9    side, to use your own words, where you had visited a hospital which was

10    totally destroyed along with the village, and you indicated on the map

11    that particular location or the road leading to that location.  Can you

12    please point that out again.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

14    Objection.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness did not state

17    that.  He didn't indicate on the map, as far as I can remember -- he

18    didn't indicate this village.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My recollection is he indicated in what

20    direction it was.  But perhaps you could ask him again -- you could ask

21    him again to point at the direction that he did before.

22            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

25       Q.   Sir, would you be able to indicate on that map that particular

Page 17270

 1    village?

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't show you that exact

 4    village.  I don't remember that.  I simply showed -- indicated the road

 5    which led in that direction, leading -- the road leading to Pale.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Mahindaratne, my recollection is that the

 7    witness testified that the village was between 12 and 15 kilometres from

 8    the confrontation line.  If you can find on one of these maps any location

 9    which is at a distance of 12 to 15 kilometres from the confrontation line,

10    then please ask the witness to point at the village.  But if not, it's no

11    use.

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.  Very well.

13       Q.   Sir, how far on that road would one have to travel to get to this

14    particular village you spoke of?  How far on the road you indicated --

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question isn't clear.

18    From where?  From where?

19            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will withdraw that.  I will withdraw that.

20    In the interest of time, I will withdraw that question.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please proceed.

22            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the maps be returned.

23       Q.   Sir, you spoke of General Soubirou conducting meetings with

24    General Galic.

25       A.   Yes.

Page 17271

 1       Q.   It was your position that you participated at such meetings only

 2    when officers of General Galic were also present.

 3       A.   Yes.  There were several such meetings where general questions

 4    were discussed.

 5       Q.   Accordingly, General Soubirou had met General Galic in your

 6    absence many times.

 7       A.   Yes.  This is quite natural.

 8       Q.   Did General Soubirou discuss with you about every item of

 9    correspondence that left his desk, or did he show you such correspondence

10    every time such document was issued by him?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Did he discuss with you about the contents of all the meetings he

13    conducted with General Galic?

14       A.   No, he did not.

15       Q.   To a question from the Defence - and I will repeat it to you

16    verbatim - "were you ever present at meetings with General Galic during

17    which he would have been forwarded such written protests concerning one or

18    more sniping incidents, precise and identified sniping incidents?"  And

19    your response was, "No, specifically in the written form I never saw such

20    protests in meetings with General Galic."

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   The question was, sir, with regard to written protests.  Isn't

23    that the case?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Was it the case that protests were sometimes made in the course of

Page 17272

 1    discussions?

 2       A.   Absolutely.

 3       Q.   Have you yourself made such a protest to any person?

 4       A.   I made some protests to commanders of brigades, both at the

 5    Bosnian side and at the -- I mean, at the presidential side and the

 6    Serbian side.  We made such protests in Zuc, we made such protests inside

 7    the city.  This is quite natural.  This is daily, routine work.

 8       Q.   When you made protests to -- commanders of the brigades of the

 9    Serbian side, how did you convey your protests?  What did you tell them?

10    You do not have to say it verbatim, but what type of protests were these?

11       A.   Well, I cannot recall it word for word, of course, but we would

12    say something like this:  From your side there came some shelling,

13    although we have come to a cease-fire arrangement.  And the answer would

14    usually be, "We have also been fired upon," and I could never find the

15    truth from any side.  And to any protests we would hear in response that,

16    "We have been also fired at and we were firing in return."

17       Q.   Sir, when you use the word "firing," do you also include shelling

18    as well as sniping?

19       A.   Those would be firing as from -- from mortars, from firearms, and

20    including the sniper firings.

21       Q.   About how many such protests did you make to the commander -- the

22    brigade commanders on the Serbian side during the course of your tenure in

23    Sarajevo?  If you cannot remember, it's okay.  Or if you can, give an

24    approximate number.

25       A.   Well, this is impossible because practically if such incidents

Page 17273

 1    were taking place, then immediately we would respond to such incidents.

 2    This could be happening even two times a day.  It could be once a week.  I

 3    cannot tell you -- count this.

 4       Q.   So it would be -- I beg your pardon.  It would be too many to

 5    quantify.

 6       A.   Right.  And the presidency side -- but I can say the same about

 7    the presidency side.

 8       Q.   Sir, to a question from the Defence counsel - and I will repeat

 9    this verbatim - "as a result, should I infer from this that --" no, it

10    goes on "should I infer from this that if there were facts which justified

11    a protest to be made to General Galic, then General Soubirou would not

12    have failed to react?"  And your response was, "Well, I cannot recall at

13    the moment such instances.  I know that after the shelling of Sarajevo he

14    would go to General Galic and General Soubirou would talk to him.  But

15    whether this was on paper or not, I cannot tell you this."

16            Sir, were you in saying "General Soubirou could talk to General

17    Galic after shelling of Sarajevo," were you present at such discussions

18    personally?

19       A.   Well, now I cannot recall at the moment.  I was present at a

20    number of discussions.  I had my own functions.  For example, I was

21    collecting the Serbian weapons when the agreement was reached.  I was

22    collecting those arms and the weapons we were placing with the security

23    guards from the outside.  Next to every point where there were heavy

24    weapons, tanks, mortar weapons from the Serbian side.  And the Bosnian

25    weapons heavy weapons were collected inside Sarajevo in the Tito barracks.

Page 17274

 1       Q.   You said that you were sometimes present when General Soubirou

 2    discussed issues with General Galic.  Isn't that the case, sir?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did those discussions also include shelling of Sarajevo, which you

 5    have referred to in your testimony earlier?

 6       A.   Well, there were such negotiations as well.  There were

 7    negotiations on the conduct of convoys, whether humanitarian aid, that

 8    they did not get detained on the way.  We he would negotiations on the

 9    work and transportation of civilian doctors.  We also discussed the

10    question of water supply to Sarajevo and the reconstruction works were

11    discussed, the removal of the construction and the removal of trash and

12    debris.  All these issues were discussed constantly.

13       Q.   When you refer to the words "there were such negotiations as

14    well," could you elaborate more as to how shelling of Sarajevo was

15    negotiated.  In what sense did you mean negotiated with General Galic?

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object

19    because in the answer given by the witness --

20            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if --

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If we look --

22            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I think it might be prudent to ask the witness

23    to remove his headphones and perhaps -- or turn it to another Translation

24    Unit since --

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Usher, could you please change the channel,

Page 17275

 1    since you are still speaking French, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll continue in French,

 3    Mr. President.

 4            First of all, I object a posteriori to the question put by my

 5    learned colleague for the following reason:  The witness has already

 6    answered regarding the shelling that he referred to that he was not

 7    present at that meeting between Mr. Soubirou and General Galic.  That is

 8    the first point.

 9            The second point is that when talking about negotiations, many

10    things are covered: Humanitarian aid, convoys, et cetera.  But never

11    negotiations on the object of the shelling.  And the question that has

12    been put in continuation by my colleague implies that there were

13    negotiations on the shelling, which is not correct.  And on those two

14    bases, I object.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, we have a problem unless you also

16    start speaking French.  But if --

17            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, all I can say is that the

18    transcript clearly shows the continuation of the questions and answers,

19    which leads to my -- this particular question.  I have not in any way

20    misled the witness.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just confer.

22                          [Trial Chamber confers]

23            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If I may assist, Mr. President.  If I may

24    assist, Mr. President.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 17276

 1            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  From the question:  Did those -- you said that

 2    you were sometimes present to that point -- from that point onwards.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated] That's -- could you give

 4    us a line and a page.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Mr. President.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I don't know whether -- I don't know whether

 8    it's the same.  Line 22 on my page, page 67.  I don't know whether my

 9    numbering here on this PC is the same as yours, Mr. President.

10            It's the third question before the objection, Mr. President.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.  No, we are looking a bit more

12    back in time.

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14            JUDGE ORIE:  The pages seem all to be different.

15                          [Trial Chamber confers]

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, could you also repeat your source

17    you gave me.  I've forgotten.

18            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Page 67 -- I beg your pardon, Mr. President.

19    Page 67, line 22.  It starts at, "You said."

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Looking at page 67, going on to page 68, the answers

21    seem not to be unambiguous.  So the Prosecution is allowed to seek

22    confirmation of how it understands the answer, but in a prudent way.

23            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24            I beg your pardon, Mr. President.  If I may just take a moment.

25       Q.   Sir, I asked you a question in this manner.  I will repeat it to

Page 17277

 1    you.  I referred to the discussions conducted by General Soubirou with

 2    General Galic where you were present.  And referring to such discussions

 3    where you were personally present, I ask you this question:  Did those

 4    discussions also include shelling of Sarajevo, which you have referred to

 5    in your testimony earlier?  And your response was, "Well, there was such

 6    negotiations as well."  You said so, sir.  Now --

 7       A.   I would like to say --

 8       Q.   I haven't asked you the question, sir.

 9       A.   Please do.

10       Q.   Could you clarify as to how shelling of Sarajevo was negotiated by

11    General Soubirou and General Galic.  How did -- what was the contents of

12    the discussion?  I don't expect you to answer in verbatim sense, but if

13    you can just say what took place.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  Apart

16    from the fact that the term "negotiation" I find shocking, I wonder

17    whether you also answered -- responded to my objection a moment ago when I

18    was explaining the question of the bombing, the shelling that we are still

19    referring to, that the witness already gave a negative answer to that

20    question.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please point exactly on where the negative

22    answer was given, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot,

24    because on this model of computer I am very inefficient, even more so than

25    with others.

Page 17278

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just see.  Mr. Tsynchenko, you have talked --

 2    you have testified about meetings where shelling was discussed.  I'm not

 3    talk about negotiations, but where shelling of the city was discussed.

 4    You said that such meetings took place.  Have you ever been present during

 5    a meeting where shelling of the city was discussed?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to clarify with

 7    your permission.  I was present mostly at those meetings -- I was

 8    constantly present and mostly at those meetings when we were discussing

 9    the issue of -- the conclusion of an agreement on the cease-fire, on the

10    collection of the firearms which cannot be transported out of the area,

11    and also those areas which -- those weapons which can be brought outside

12    the Sarajevo zone by 20 kilometres.  This involved a lot of technical

13    issues and a lot of meetings were held at various levels, and I was -- I

14    personally was responsible and was nominated by General Soubirou -- I was

15    nominated as the responsible person for those issues and I personally

16    would go to those areas and would fly there by myself and with him to

17    those points to places where we would collect armaments.  This was a long

18    negotiations process.  We held meetings at the highest level.  We held

19    meetings between Mr. Akashi and Mr. Rose, and Sergio de Mello also

20    participated very actively in this process.  So I was present mostly at

21    such types of meetings.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My question was:  Were you ever present at a

23    meeting where shelling as such was discussed, the shelling of the city

24    that --

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I was.

Page 17279

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that protests, both concerning shelling

 2    and sniping, were almost made at -- on a daily basis.  Would you consider

 3    such protests not to be a discussion on shelling or ...?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was mostly oral protests.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So to that extent, shelling was often subject

 6    of the conversation.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not think that it was very

 8    often that the level of General Galic, these things were discussed with

 9    him.  But with his subordinates, with the chief of staff, with the

10    artillery commanders, this issue was discussed much more often.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So mainly on the lower level and sometimes

12    with -- in meetings with General Galic as well.  Is that a correct

13    understanding of your testimony?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please continue, Ms. Mahindaratne.

16            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

17       Q.   Sir, to a question from the Bench just now you answered, "I do not

18    think that it was very often that at the level of General Galic these

19    things were discussed with him."  Now, you clearly testified, sir, that

20    you did not participate in the meetings between General Soubirou and

21    General Galic constantly and it was only some meetings where General

22    Galic's subordinate officers were present, that you were present.  Isn't

23    that the case, sir?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   If that be the case, how could you so ultimately state that such

Page 17280

 1    things were -- that you don't think that such things were discussed at the

 2    level of General Galic because you did not in fact participate in those

 3    meetings.  Isn't that the case, sir?

 4       A.   Well, I did not get the substance of the question.  I'm sorry.

 5       Q.   Sir, you did not participate at most of the meetings conducted

 6    between General Soubirou and General Galic or between General Galic and

 7    other senior officers of UNPROFOR.  Isn't that the case?

 8       A.   I'm sorry, which other senior officials?  You mean General Rose

 9    and ...?

10       Q.   Yes.

11       A.   Viktor Andreev?

12       Q.   Yes.

13       A.   No, that was not my level.

14       Q.   Yes.  So therefore, you would not be able to say or state as to

15    what transpired at those meetings.  Isn't that the case, sir?

16       A.   At the confidential level, no, I could not say.  But approximately

17    which issues would be discussed at those meetings, I would know that.

18       Q.   What made you say that shelling was not discussed so often at the

19    level of General Galic, especially in view of the fact that you did not

20    meet -- or you did not participate at those meetings so often?

21       A.   If I may, I would like to clarify.  General Soubirou was not

22    always himself in the Sarajevo sector.  General Galic was in command of

23    his corps and was not always as well in that area.  In order for a meeting

24    to take place, it was necessary to organise that meeting.  If these were

25    daily contacts, then nobody would be in command over any army and nobody

Page 17281

 1    would be taking care of any other business except for going and visiting

 2    each other and holding meetings.

 3            I would say that active exchange of meetings were taking place

 4    when we were talking about a cease-fire and collection of armaments.

 5    These meetings were taking place very often.

 6       Q.   Sir, your testimony was that General Soubirou met General Galic in

 7    your absence.  That was clearly your testimony.  Wasn't that the case?  Or

 8    if I may rephrase, you did not participate at all the meetings conducted

 9    between General Soubirou and General Galic.

10       A.   Of course not.  This was not possible.

11       Q.   Sir, you referred to chief of staff of General Galic with whom you

12    said shelling has been discussed, in addition to brigade commanders.  Do

13    you know the name of the chief of staff of General Galic?

14        A.   To be honest, I don't remember exactly his name but I remember he

15    was a colonel.  I think a lot of time has already lapsed since then, many

16    years.

17       Q.   Did you have contact with him?

18       A.   Yes, of course I did have contact with him.

19       Q.   In saying that shelling was discussed with the chief of staff and

20    the brigade commanders, did you also yourself make such protests to the

21    chief of staff of General Galic?

22       A.   Well, it's very difficult to say protest, because no written

23    protests were handed over.  We would come over and we would say, "Another

24    shelling or firing has taken place from this and that area on Sarajevo."

25    And I cannot simply explain how this would work.  It's not that I come

Page 17282

 1    over and I say, "I would like to protest, or to launch a protest."  No, we

 2    were -- we came to talk and to discuss the issue of the cessation of fire

 3    activity, and this process was going on for a long time, because both

 4    parties were not -- were rather reluctant to reach the agreement.

 5       Q.   So you prefer not to use the word "protest."  Let me ask you in

 6    this manner:  Did you discuss shelling of Sarajevo with the chief of staff

 7    of General Galic?

 8       A.   Yes, we did discuss that question.

 9       Q.   Often?

10       A.   Not very often, no.  Well, the system was a little bit different

11    because liaison officers were working in most instances who had constant

12    meetings, and every one of them had his own functions.

13       Q.   You said that you made sometimes daily, sometimes twice a day, and

14    sometimes weekly protests to the brigade commanders about shelling of

15    Sarajevo.  You personally made those protests.  You said that in your

16    testimony.

17       A.   I did not make such protests personally, but this was done by

18    UNPROFOR, by those commanders of battalions which found themselves at the

19    line of contact with that party.

20       Q.   Sir, your testimony was that protests were made by you to the

21    brigade commanders.  That was your testimony.

22       A.   I didn't mean myself personally.  I meant commanders of battalions

23    and officers of the Sarajevo sector.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could my

25    colleague cite the place where exactly the witness made this reference.

Page 17283

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  I think in French I heard you say that he personally

 2    made this protest, but that were not the words of Ms. Mahindaratne.  She

 3    said that you did it, and I think she got a clarification for that.  So

 4    unless you insist.  But it was the answer that the witness testified that

 5    he did not personally make these protests.  But it was not the question.

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 9       Q.   Would you know the -- would you be able to identify these brigades

10    of the Serbian army to which these protests were made by UNPROFOR about

11    shelling of Sarajevo?

12       A.   I don't remember the names of brigades.  Do you have a map, by any

13    chance?

14       Q.   If you don't remember, that should be all right.

15            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No more questions, Mr. President.  That

16    concludes cross-examination.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

18            Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:  [Microphone not activated].

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, counsel, please.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

22            Yes, Mr. President.  Are we continuing up to 7.00 or quarter past

23    7.00?

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No, certainly not to quarter past 7.00.  We'll

25    continue to --

Page 17284

 1                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  We have some eight or nine minutes left because of

 3    the tapes, so we'll certainly finish at five minutes to 7.00, not one

 4    second later.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's perfect.

 6                          Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

 7       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, just a minute ago, in response to a

 8    question put to you by my learned colleague, a question that -- which

 9    concerned your response in relation to Zetra, you said that the line that

10    you traced on the map did not indicate where fire was coming from but it

11    indicated the direction that anti-sniper weapons were pointing in.  Do you

12    remember stating this?  It's page 74, line 4 in the transcript.

13       A.   Yes, I remember that.

14       Q.   Very well.  Witness, if you indicated that these weapons were

15    pointing in that direction, then my question is as follows:  What were

16    these weapons pointing at?  I'm referring to the anti-sniper weapons.

17       A.   They were pointing to the direction from which the sniper fire

18    originated.  Weapons cannot be directed to any other side except the side

19    for which the fire is originating.  I just wanted to be very specific in

20    giving my answers.

21       Q.   Witness, thank you for this answer.  Have I understood your

22    testimony correctly:  The line that you traced on the map marks both the

23    direction in which anti-sniper weapons were pointing and as a result also

24    the direction from which fire was coming.  Is that correct?

25       A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 17285

 1       Q.   Thank you for your answer.

 2            Witness, I would now like to go back to certain other issues.  You

 3    spoke in response to a question from the Prosecution about the school in

 4    Alipasino Polje.  I don't know whether you remember this, but for us it

 5    was page 53 approximately.  Do you remember the answer that you provided

 6    then?

 7       A.   I said that that was not a school but a children's playground in

 8    the vicinity of a school.  At the time, there were children there.  That

 9    was around 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning.

10       Q.   Witness, did you, the UN forces, ever carry out an investigation

11    into this incident?  I'm talking about a technical investigation.

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object.  This is not an issue

15    that comes out from cross-examination, about an investigation into a

16    shelling incident.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you tell us where

18    investigations of shelling incidents were dealt with in cross-examination.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, obviously there

20    is no direct relation to the question of investigations, but the

21    Prosecution did raise the issue of the shelling of a school -- the issue

22    of a shelling that we didn't mention.  To the extent that this issue was

23    raised, I think that it is Defence's right to ask whether investigations

24    were carried out, because one of the important issues is to know whether

25    the information came through and if so, how.  I have to admit that I

Page 17286

 1    can -- I am no longer able to use my computer, unfortunately.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know whether that causes the problem,

 3    but I will allow you one question.  But please direct it in the relation

 4    you just indicated.  So the question was about the details of what

 5    happened in the playground near a school and so investigations in that

 6    respect.  I'll allow you to ask questions about that.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 8       Q.   Witness, with regard to this incident, do you know - yes or no -

 9    whether investigations were instigated with regard to this incident?  And

10    if so, what might have been the result of these investigations?

11       A.   Yes, that's right.  There was an investigation carried out after

12    every incident.  I know that for a fact.  As to the conclusions that were

13    reached after that investigation, I can't tell you anything because the

14    experts that led that investigation came from the staff of General Rose.

15    There were some French experts there, British experts as well.  We did not

16    have our own experts in the Sarajevo sectors that could have carried out

17    such investigation.

18       Q.   Thank you for your answer.  As far as two other questions that

19    were put to you by the Prosecution and which concern the number of

20    protests lodged, you said that there were numerous protests.  I'm

21    referring to page 65 and 66.  So my question now is as follows:  When you

22    say that there were numerous protests that were made, first of all what

23    did this concern as a general rule?  And secondly, did this concern

24    protests made against just one of the parties or were the protests made in

25    relation to both sides?

Page 17287

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  I think that last question has already been answered

 2    in a previous moment, so the first -- it's my recollection that you said

 3    that protest was made to both parties.  Is my understanding correct?

 4            THE WITNESS:  [No audible response]

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you then please answer the first part of

 6    the question.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both sides -- that's right, both

 8    sides lodged protests.  And as to the other question, I'll explain why

 9    there were numerous.  Because when one reads the reports, one can see that

10    there was firearms, fire, mortar fire, and so on.  And commanders at

11    various levels lodged in such protests almost on a daily basis; therefore,

12    I can't say that General Soubirou went to see General Galic daily in order

13    to lodge in protests.  I can't say that.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  -- Part of the question.

15            I'm looking at the clock and keeping in mind the tape.  And

16    Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time would you still need?

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.  I have also noticed

18    that, Mr. President.  I have another three or four questions,

19    unfortunately.  I think that --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Try to do this as efficiently as possible.  But

21    tomorrow morning I think ten minutes would be certainly enough for three

22    or four questions -- tomorrow in the afternoon.  Yes, of course.  I'm

23    making a mistake.

24            Mr. Tsynchenko, we'll adjourn until tomorrow.  I don't think it

25    will take much time tomorrow in the afternoon, presumably not more than

Page 17288

 1    half an hour to three quarters of an hour.  Yes, we'll adjourn until

 2    tomorrow at quarter past 2.00.  May I instruct you not to speak with

 3    anyone about the testimony you have given or you're about to give

 4    tomorrow, not with anyone, not with the parties, with no one.  We expect

 5    you to be back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00.  It will not take very long,

 6    I take it.

 7            We'll adjourn until tomorrow in the afternoon, the same courtroom,

 8    quarter past 2.00.

 9                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

10                          at 6.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

11                          the 9th day of January, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.