Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17289

1 Thursday, 9 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.38 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before we continue with the examination of the present witness,

10 the Chamber would like to deal with a few issues still outstanding. The

11 first one is of a very practical nature. The Chamber would like to sit

12 next Wednesday in the afternoon instead of in the morning and would just

13 like to know whether there's any opposition either from the Defence or the

14 Prosecution to swap.

15 Yes. And I didn't see you consult with General Galic. He might

16 have appointments or whatever next Wednesday. Is it all right, as far as

17 you're concerned as well, General Galic? Yes. Thank you very much.

18 Yes.

19 MR. MUNDIS: No problems from the Prosecution, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll sit next Wednesday in the afternoon

21 instead of in the morning.

22 Then the Prosecution has asked for some extension of time in

23 respect of the submissions made in relation to experts. The Prosecution

24 has asked for extension of time until the 10th of January. The Chamber

25 has not heard any opposition from the Defence side and is -- yes. Since I

Page 17290

1 hear no objections from the Defence, the extra time is granted until the

2 10th of January.

3 Then we still have the issue of the replacement of witnesses. And

4 I'd like to split that up in two parts. The first part is the request

5 made by the Defence on the 19th of December. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we requested

9 protective measures, but because of his health, he was not able to appear

10 before this Trial Chamber, just like the other witness, who has been cited

11 as a witness who was to appear in the submission of the 19th of December.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... I just

13 mentioned. The witnesses to replace the other witnesses, are there any

14 requests -- I didn't see any requests for protective measures in their

15 respect. Is that correct?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the moment I

17 haven't requested protective measures. And when I spoke to him, I was

18 informed that he wouldn't be requesting protective measures. But I am

19 waiting for your decision so that they can appear. I can't claim for sure

20 that protective measures won't be requested before he appears.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... just refer

22 to the two witnesses suggested to replace two other witnesses in your

23 request of the 19th of December. Both new witnesses. The name starts

24 with a "K." The Chamber grants the request.

25 The Prosecution in its response has asked for 60 days of

Page 17291

1 preparation of cross-examination. Could the Defence indicate when they

2 intend to call these two witnesses replacing the other two witnesses.

3 What -- at what time approximately?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would first of all

5 like to inform the Trial Chamber that the Defence counsel has written a

6 submission that will be provided to the Trial Chamber through the Registry

7 today, and in that submission we have given the reasons for which the 60

8 days which have been requested to prepare to hear these witnesses, this is

9 not a period of time that the Trial Chamber should grant my colleagues.

10 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether you intend to call these

11 witnesses.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we intend to

13 call them in 20 days' time. I'm counting with the schedule for the

14 witnesses for the following days, and with the schedule for the witnesses

15 for the week that commences on the 18th. So that would probably be on the

16 27th of January or on the 1st of February. That is when Defence counsel

17 would call both witnesses.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence is allowed to call these witnesses but

20 not on shorter notice than three weeks. If, for any specific reason, the

21 Prosecution would find itself in a position where once started to

22 investigate the background of these witnesses is not able to finish

23 preparation of cross-examination within these three weeks, the Prosecution

24 may ask for more time to prepare but then, of course, should do it at a

25 moment when it's still possible to reschedule the witnesses. So the

Page 17292

1 starting point is three weeks, but if for any specific reason, and upon

2 good cause shown, the Defence -- the Prosecution would need more time, it

3 should be in due time being brought to the attention of the Chamber.

4 Then we had another request -- an earlier request on which a

5 decision has already been taken on the replacement of four witnesses,

6 where the Chamber has granted the replacement of these four witnesses by

7 three other witnesses and has given an opportunity to the Defence to make

8 further submissions in respect of the witness that would replace

9 Mr. Bezrouchenko who was earlier on the list and the new witness would be

10 Mr. Kruk. The Chamber has asked the Defence to give further information

11 that could demonstrate that this witness, Mr. Kruk, would not repeat

12 evidence already presented by the Defence. The Defence has submitted new

13 information to the Chamber. We have considered the reasons why we asked

14 for this further information. That was that Mr. Bezrouchenko would

15 testify about a lot of specific incidents that did not appear on the

16 summaries of other witnesses. On the basis of the newly provided

17 information, the Chamber does not oppose the calling of Mr. Kruk but not

18 for the three hours as scheduled but for one hour and a half. That would

19 mean that for the original scheduling of these witnesses was Kuksenko, two

20 hours, Demurenko, two hours, Golubev, one hour. That would make five

21 hours. To these five hours now a testimony of the witness by the name of

22 Kruk could add one hour and a half to that. That would make altogether

23 six and a half hours for these four witnesses.

24 Then we have a request for protective measures in respect of

25 several witnesses. We cannot deal with that in open session, so I would

Page 17293

1 like to turn into closed session for a while -- for -- private session

2 would be enough.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17294

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]


4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I would

5 just like to say that I know that this is the fax number. And up until

6 now the Defence counsel used this number to contact the Prosecution. But

7 for two days now when I intended to file the submissions -- to provide

8 these submissions, it wasn't functioning. But I know that this is the

9 right number.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that both parties will certainly be able to

11 communicate to each other those fax numbers that are functioning properly

12 and are closest to the desks of the one for who it is -- to whom it is

13 addressed.

14 Then we were at the stage of re-examination --

15 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry, Mr. President. I did have one issue that I

17 would ask for clarification with respect to the witness Kruk in terms of

18 proposed timetable or scheduling for the appearance of that witness

19 because again that would be a witness that we would need to --


21 MR. MUNDIS: -- Commence our searches on.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I should have -- I should have dealt with that

23 before.

24 Ms. Pilipovic, do you know when you intend to call the witness

25 Mr. Kruk?

Page 17295

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence intends

2 to call this witness for the 18th, so the week commencing after the 18th.

3 And on the 6th of December, in a submission which was also provided to the

4 Trial Chamber, I provided the necessary information for Mr. Kruk. But at

5 that time when I was granted permission, he didn't have a passport. I

6 didn't have any more detailed clarifications, any more detailed

7 information about him. I provided this to my colleagues in time, and the

8 Defence intends to call him after the 18th.

9 JUDGE ORIE: After the 18th. But that would be already

10 after -- nine days from now, which is very short.

11 Mr. Mundis, would it be wise to insist on a decision now, or could

12 you try to find out what could be done in the spirit of time. I know that

13 11 days is less than 60.

14 MR. MUNDIS: My understanding, Mr. President, is that our unit

15 that does the searches won't do the searches until the witness has been,

16 in effect, approved by the Trial Chamber. So if it -- if the Chamber has

17 ordered this witness, I'll make the inquiries today. I can't speculate as

18 to how quickly it can be done, but certainly we will request that --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber has now decided that the

20 Defence is allowed to call Mr. Kruk as a witness for one hour and a half.

21 Could you please inform us then perhaps tomorrow in order to prevent any

22 unnecessary problems.

23 MR. MUNDIS: We'll certainly do that, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it you reserve your rights to oppose

25 against this --

Page 17296

1 MR. MUNDIS: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- Short term.

3 Then Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to

4 continue the re-examination of the witness?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President.


7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please escort the witness into the courtroom.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tsynchenko, can you still hear me in a language

12 you understand?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. You are still bound by the solemn

15 declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony.

16 The re-examination by against counsel will now continue.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day once more. Yesterday we were

23 discussing the issue of shelling. I'd appreciate it if you could remember

24 what you indicated yesterday. And with regard to this issue of shelling,

25 I have the following question to put to you. I would appreciate it if you

Page 17297

1 could answer by saying yes or no, if that is possible. Do you know

2 precisely -- do you yourself know where all the command posts were located

3 in Sarajevo; yes or no?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'll put my question to you again in the following manner: Do you

6 know what Kulin Ban is?

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.


9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: This does not arise from cross-examination.

10 This does not arise from cross-examination.


12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please respond. The Prosecution says

13 that this does not arise.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That follows from it, and I

15 will explain why.

16 But could the witness take his headphones off.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please assist. And could you also

18 choose another channel for the -- yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the screen be --

20 This follows from it because since the witness said that he knew

21 all the command posts, I want to check to see whether he has understood my

22 question correctly by asking him, for example, where the Kulin Ban post

23 was. We know where it is.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that the objection was

25 about the first question already, that command posts --

Page 17298

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But I'll

2 get to that. The question is, when we talk about the shelling of

3 Sarajevo, if one doesn't know where the command posts are, then one could

4 say, "Yes, Sarajevo was shelled," but one cannot know whether within

5 Sarajevo it was a command post or a military target that was shelled. And

6 this is the sense in which I want to put my questions and this is why I

7 think it is relevant with regard to the issue of shelling in general. I

8 think that the witness didn't understand my question very well. Perhaps I

9 expressed myself badly, because perhaps he was thinking of UN command

10 posts and not other command posts, so this is why I would like to

11 continue.

12 JUDGE ORIE: But even then the objection of the Prosecution is not

13 that it's irrelevant but that it does not arise from the

14 cross-examination, that whether targets, military targets or not, was not

15 an issue, that has been dealt with in cross-examination.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that the issue of

17 shelling was raised and dealt with in a very precise manner by my learned

18 colleagues when they said that you were present with General Soubirou at

19 these discussions on the shelling of Sarajevo. And these are the points

20 that I want to take up again. This comes out of the cross-examination.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

22 you're telling us that the simple fact that shelling was discussed is a

23 sufficient reason to now put this question.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, what I'm saying is to the

25 extent that we have mentioned discussions between General Galic and

Page 17299

1 General Soubirou, who was the witness's superior, about the shelling of

2 Sarajevo. And this was discussed in general terms. This gives us the

3 possibility to try and find out what this could -- how this could have

4 been understood at the time.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there might be

7 certain doubts about the fact that the question that you put to the

8 witness comes out of the cross-examination, arises from the

9 cross-examination. The Trial Chamber will allow you to -- one or two

10 questions, but we're not going to deal with all the command post

11 buildings. So just a question or two. Please carry on.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

13 Mr. President.

14 Q. Witness, can you hear me?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you very much. I'll put the question to you again from the

17 beginning to ensure that things are clear. I'm talking about command

18 posts of the BH army in Sarajevo at all levels, battalions, brigades,

19 inferior command posts, et cetera, lower command post, et cetera. Do you

20 personally know, yes or no, where all these so-called legitimate targets

21 were located; yes or no?

22 A. I knew that while I was there. Right now it's difficult for me to

23 tell you that or to show you those locations. I don't remember them.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. One question: Can you tell me

25 what Kulin Ban is; yes or no?

Page 17300

1 A. I don't recall, no.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, when we talk about the shelling of

3 Sarajevo in general - and could you please concentrate on my

4 question - could you categorically exclude that at the time of the

5 shelling there was not either a mortar shell at the place of the shelling

6 or enemy troops?

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. There was -- the

8 witness did not speak of a particular shelling incident. I wonder whether

9 the witness's earphones should be removed at this stage.

10 In cross-examination, Mr. President, the witness --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the witness still can hear your English.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Perhaps if the witness may be taken out.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, put in the general way as you did

15 it, everyone could answer that question because, in general, you can never

16 exclude these kind of things. So therefore, if you want to be more

17 specific, we might receive information that could assist the Chamber. But

18 in these general terms - and it's not the first time that we hear this

19 kind of question - the Chamber does not think that it's of great

20 assistance. And at the same time, I think this would meet the objection

21 of the Prosecution as well. So in a more specific way, please ask your

22 question about a subject but not in this general way.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 Q. Witness, you spoke yesterday about an incident that happened on

Page 17301

1 the 22nd of January, 1994 in Alipasino Polje. Do you remember this?

2 A. You mean the incident when the children were killed? Is that what

3 you have in mind?

4 Q. Yes, that's the incident I'm referring to, in fact.

5 A. I remember that, yes.

6 Q. Do you know whether close to this area there were any military

7 targets, whether they were troops or the headquarters of an establishment,

8 a factory, et cetera?

9 A. I don't remember that there were workshops there, and the staff of

10 the brigade was to the north of Alipasino Polje -- or rather, not to the

11 north but to the south if one looks at the map. It was to the south of

12 Alipasino Polje and close to the confrontation line. There were barracks

13 there.

14 Q. Thank you. And with regard to the shelling, again, witness, were

15 you informed about the movements of troops, the movement of the so-called

16 BH side troops within the city; yes or no?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. Given the answer that you have just provided us with,

19 you wouldn't be able to exclude the possibility that the

20 shelling -- so-called shelling of the city could have been the shelling of

21 troops that were moving; is that correct?

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President.


24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The witness is being invited to speculate.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me ask you the following question,

Page 17302

1 Mr. Tsynchenko: Did any information reach you at any time about the

2 presence of troops or the presence of mobile mortars close to the place

3 where the incident Mr. Piletta-Zanin just referred to has taken place, at

4 that very moment?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. And therefore, I

6 cannot give you an accurate answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that yesterday we were talking about

10 approximately ten minutes. We now altogether took approximately 17

11 minutes. So could you please conclude in a couple of minutes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I only have two -- or in

13 fact, three questions.

14 Q. The first one is -- because it wasn't very clear yesterday: What

15 can you tell us about the direction that fire was coming from with regard

16 to the incident that we are talking about, on the 22nd of January, 1994 in

17 Alipasino Polje?

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For --

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In cross-examination, there were no issues of

21 direction of fire elicited through evidence. This is completely new

22 material.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Isn't it true that the witness has testified on

24 whether investigations took place and whether he is aware of the results

25 of such investigations? And since the witness also testified that he had

Page 17303

1 not been present when the incident happened, it could have only been by

2 the result of investigations, I take it, that -- but perhaps we could ask

3 him.

4 Mr. Tsynchenko, as far as this incident is concerned we were just

5 talk about, do you have any knowledge as to the source of the

6 projectiles -- or the projectile that landed there? And if you have

7 information, what was the source of that information?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have such information.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, I would like to concentrate on two issues now. The first

12 one concerns the total zone of exclusion, 20 kilometres around Sarajevo.

13 And the second issue is the famous anti-sniper agreement. Do you know

14 whether General Galic was personally involved in trying to obtain these

15 two agreements and in trying to obtain exclusion of heavy weapons around

16 Sarajevo and the agreement -- and the anti-sniper agreement? Was he

17 personally involved in this during his time in Sarajevo; yes or no?

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have an objection, I think.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. In cross-examination

22 there was no issue of total exclusion zones that was elicited through the

23 evidence firstly.

24 Secondly, Mr. President, the witness did not speak during

25 cross-examination of involvement of any persons other then himself in

Page 17304

1 the -- other than himself and General Soubirou in the anti-sniping

2 agreement negotiations.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it's not necessary that in

4 cross-examination every single aspect of the question has been dealt with.

5 The objection is denied.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness, did you understand my question? It was as follows --

9 A. Yes, I understood your question. General Galic did participate,

10 but -- and without General Galic's participation, it wouldn't have been

11 possible to either put the weapons in depots or whatever. I was

12 responsible for the technical aspect of the question, that is, we

13 collected the weapons, the bounties, and controlled the removal of the

14 weapons at a distance of 20 kilometres away from Sarajevo.

15 Q. Did you, therefore, often meet and communicate with General Galic

16 in order to bring about the implementation of the agreements?

17 A. Well, we did not communicate often. In the beginning

18 General Soubirou had two or three meetings, and we would be present there.

19 General Rose would also participate in this. But later on more concretely

20 we worked with officers who were General Galic's subordinates.

21 Q. And my very last question, my very last question: When -- I'm

22 talking now about the agreement of the total exclusion zone, when it was

23 agreed, how did the troops under General Galic behave? Did they respect

24 that agreement or whatever?

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.

Page 17305


2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There was no issue of total exclusion --

3 JUDGE ORIE: No. But Ms. Mahindaratne, the issue has been

4 yesterday in cross-examination the preparation and the importance of this

5 type of agreements have been extensively dealt with.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then it's not inadmissible to extend to that an

8 agreement which might not be the one mentioned but which is -- which shows

9 some similarity in character.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Your very last question.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Did you understand, witness, what I asked you, or do you want me

14 to repeat my question?

15 A. I understand what you're asking me. To begin with, I want to say

16 that if four mortar -- four 120 mortars were in place, that was one

17 matter. Then one would have a squad of British soldiers. The mines were

18 placed in crates, 50 to each one, and they would be then kept by British

19 soldiers, and of course nobody would find that. And when there was the

20 Sheridan tank in the mountains, there were also two artillery weapons. At

21 the third point there were four mortars and two -- no, no, there was a gun

22 battery and two mortars. So these are the places -- these are the points

23 where they were kept and I was personally and where there were UN squads

24 who kept these weapons under their control, and therefore those weapons

25 could not fire and did not fire.

Page 17306

1 Q. But, witness, my question was as follows: To your knowledge, did

2 General Galic's troops implement properly this agreement on the total

3 exclusion zone?

4 A. On the exclusion of weapons was observed, and they complied with

5 it strictly. That is, the agreement of the total exclusion zone and the

6 removal of weapons 20 kilometres beyond Sarajevo. Both these agreements

7 were complied with strictly.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

9 have no further questions.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Does the re-examination -- [No interpretation]

11 -- there seems to be a problem with -- we seem to be hearing Russian, I

12 take it.

13 But switching to French, I hear French. And now I will try to

14 understand the English again, and I hear no Russian any more. So

15 that's -- the problems seem to have been solved.

16 Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you,

17 Mr. Tsynchenko.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we as

20 Judges are not allowed to play the role of the parties. However, I think

21 that the parties shouldn't mislead the Chamber. It could happen when

22 documents are read only partially. That's why I will ask Ms. Mahindaratne

23 something, because you brought that question during the cross-examination,

24 to clarify something for the Chamber.

25 Please have a look on document Exhibit 1823. Which is the date of

Page 17307

1 that document?

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 11th January 1994?

3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. But we have another date which is

4 crossed out, December. But I agree with you, the date is January 11th,

5 1994. Is that true?

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. This is a Defence document

7 though, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, okay. No, yes. But the question was

9 made by you.

10 Now have a look on 1821.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg Your Honour's pardon. 18 ...?

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: 1821. One-eight-two-one.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You read the fourth part of the first

15 paragraph, didn't you?

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I read out to the witness, Your Honour, the

17 last -- the last part of the document, that is, starting from, "Small arms

18 activity."

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. Could you read that again.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: "Small arms activity was evident around the PTT

21 building, and on two occasions rounds hit the building itself. One round

22 entered the UNHCR radio room, narrowly missing a civilian."

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. That's enough for me. Let's go back to

24 1823. Please read the number 3.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, I see that, Your Honour.

Page 17308

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. Could you -- could you read it.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: "Attacks on UN personnel, equipment,

3 establishment nil. A number of small arm rounds, 7.62 mm hit the PTT

4 building during the night. One of the --" it is not clear on this --

5 "penetrating the UNHCR window, narrowly missing a--


7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I assume it's civilian. "After studying the

8 direction and range to the front line, to the," I think, "impact area, it

9 seems unlikely that this round came from anything" -- anything, I think I

10 would prefer, "other than a BiH weapon."

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is: Do you think that this

12 paragraph refers to the same incident already mentioned?

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg Your Honour's pardon, but I really would

14 not be able to say so. The wording is the same, but as to whether it's --

15 since the dates are 11th January, 1994 -- since the dates are the same, it

16 could well be the same incident. But with all due respect to Your Honour,

17 I did not --

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No. It is because there was a question about

19 the origin of fire yesterday about -- in this incident. That's why I

20 think that the answer is here. That's why I was saying that it is not a

21 good idea to read partially the documents.

22 Now I have a --

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Point taken. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Now I have a question for the witness, again

25 on the shelling of Sarajevo. I will read what you said yesterday in one

Page 17309

1 paragraph. You said -- you were talking about the meetings of

2 General Soubirou with General Galic, and you said: "I know that after the

3 shelling of Sarajevo, he, General Soubirou, would go to General Galic and

4 General Soubirou would talk to him about. Whether this was on paper or

5 not, I cannot tell you this." That was your answer.

6 My question is: When you said "after the shelling of Sarajevo,"

7 were you referring to any specific incident or in general the shelling of

8 Sarajevo?

9 A. Let me try to be more precise. When there is an exchange of fire

10 from Sarajevo and from outside of Sarajevo there are all these reports,

11 and everything is being checked because some people write down the number

12 of incoming; others note down the number of outgoing shots, and all this

13 has to be checked. And then the officer on duty, that is, the operations

14 part, those who were in Sarajevo, they collected this kind of information.

15 And after that the information is signed by the senior operations officer,

16 and it is then sent to the two parties to the conflict in the form of

17 protests, that is, it is sent to the Serb side and to the Bosnian side.

18 But when the fire was intense, for instance like the time when

19 Alipasino Polje was shelled. When there were serious incidents, then

20 General Soubirou always went out to Lukavica in person.

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to seek some clarification

Page 17310

1 regarding some of your answers. You told us and you showed on the map

2 areas affected by shelling, and you said that for instance there were

3 theatre and the library involved as well as other objects of worship.

4 These incidents, these shellings, the destruction, did they take place

5 before you came there or during your term there? Was it before -- that

6 is, before November 1993 until July 1994 or was it before you arrived

7 there, before your term started?

8 A. I did not say that they were. I simply said I was asked about

9 destruction, and I mentioned the objects that had been destroyed. But

10 they were destroyed before I arrived there.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. If I understand you well,

12 then, all of this destruction took place before you arrived there. Is

13 that so?

14 A. When I arrived there, those -- the principal destruction that took

15 place in Sarajevo had happened before my arrival.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I'll move on to

17 another subject if I may, and that has to do with the anti-sniping

18 agreement. If I understand you well, you were involved in at least the

19 preparation of this agreement for at least six months. Could you tell us,

20 what was the idea behind this agreement? To protect whom? How did you

21 interpret the sniping activities? Was that part of military activities,

22 that is, were they targeting military facilities or military targets or

23 something else? That is, what was the raison d'etre which led you to

24 prepare this agreement and to try to put such an agreement in place? I

25 mean, of course not only you personally but the United Nations. Why did

Page 17311

1 they embark on this and bring the two sides together to do this?

2 A. Such an agreement was indispensable because it wasn't only the

3 civilians who were being killed. There were also military who were being

4 killed by snipers on both sides. There were casualties also among the UN

5 troops that were there and military observers. And therefore, this was an

6 agreement which wanted to avoid any casualties, be it amongst the

7 civilians or amongst the military. That was the reason for it.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So you are confirming

9 to me that at least in part it was to protect the civilian population, but

10 not the others. Yes, yes, yes. Please do. Continue.

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.

13 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well.

15 Mr. Tsynchenko, do you know until when General Galic served as commander

16 of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

17 A. He was still in office at the time when I left. I am not sure. I

18 do not really know until when he served as commander.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know why he was replaced as a commander of the

20 Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

21 A. No, no, I don't know. I had no part. I could not really be in

22 this high-ranking Serb headquarters or receive any information from them,

23 and I was not in Sarajevo at the time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So you have no information on why he was replaced.

25 Thank you. That was my --

Page 17312

1 A. No, no, no. I have none.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You testified that the war sometimes was a guerilla

3 war, where you explained to us that sometimes there was firing within the

4 city of Sarajevo. So not over the confrontation lines but within the

5 confrontation lines, when opposing elements would fire at each other

6 within the lines. Could you tell us, what was the frequency of that? Was

7 that very frequent? Was that exceptional? And could you tell us about

8 your personal experience in that respect.

9 A. When the cease-fire agreement was signed, when the heavy weaponry

10 was removed from Sarajevo, the threat of city shelling stopped, but along

11 the lines of confrontation, especially in Grbavica from the Jewish

12 cemetery, there was a sporadic exchange of fire, from firearms or possibly

13 with the use of rocket launchers. But this was not under control. It

14 could happen ten times in different parts of the city, at night -- during

15 one night, or perhaps there would be only one shot one night. So it is

16 very difficult to say anything about the frequency of these things.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Did I understand you well: Are you talking now about

18 firing within -- on the territory of one of the parties? So not targeting

19 the other party but targeting with firearms people within the territory of

20 one party?

21 A. No. Basically this fire was exchanged by the two parties, that

22 is, firing at each other across the confrontation lines. But there was

23 also fire within the city. There was rifle fire there.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have told us about that. And I'm

25 interested to know whether that fire within the city -- so not against the

Page 17313

1 other party, but within the city -- firing to targets of your own party,

2 was that sporadic, was that frequent? And could you tell us about your

3 own experience in that respect.

4 A. Well, I didn't see it with my own eyes, but there were reports,

5 reports of the monitors and observers who were within the city, reports

6 coming from battalions which were in the city. All these reports came to

7 our operations department. And on the basis of that, we learnt what was

8 the information, learnt what was the situation, because of course we

9 couldn't go to all parts of the city, especially at night. But as I have

10 said, there was exchange of -- fire was also opened on UN soldiers.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm mainly interested not on fire opened on

12 UN soldiers but one member of the BH community firing at another member of

13 the BH community, and then I'm talking about the Federation or the

14 Presidency forces or civilians in the Presidency-controlled area.

15 A. Yes, I understand. I cannot say really. I cannot confirm. What

16 I can say is only what I know. I cannot be more precise than that,

17 because the two parties did not provide that kind of information, that is,

18 about their own losses, about their own casualties.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your -- for this answer.

20 I've got one final question for you: You told us about having

21 seen a tank in Ilidza. Could you tell us by whom was the position

22 controlled when you saw that tank.

23 A. The Bosniak party, because that was their tank. That one tank in

24 south Sarajevo, it was theirs.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you know how many tanks they had?

Page 17314

1 A. Well, the rumour was that it was three or five, but they hid them

2 very carefully.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your answers.

4 Is there any additional question from the parties arising from the

5 questions of the Bench?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a problem with the

7 transcript, but it has nothing to do with questions. No further

8 questions.


10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No questions from the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No questions.

12 Then Mr. Tsynchenko, this concludes your examination before this

13 Chamber. You've answered the questions of both the parties and the Bench.

14 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and giving us

15 these answers, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Tsynchenko out

18 of the courtroom.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you allow

22 me, I'd like to say something. I have the impression that on page 23,

23 line 10 - I mean, the English transcript - it seems to me that it is not

24 the correct reproduction. As I'm saying, it is just an impression,

25 because Judge El Mahdi said -- my impression is that Judge El Mahdi was

Page 17315

1 speaking about two parties to this matter, and this does not appear in the

2 wording that we see in the transcript and not "the others" which was

3 added. It seems to me that there is confusion in the transcript. So the

4 answer which was given was given to a question which was slightly

5 different, and I believe we have a problem with the transcript. But I

6 think that there is a slight problem with the transcript. Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Unfortunately I'm not in a position to check the

9 translation because my laptop is not working. But Judge El Mahdi tells me

10 that the answer could create no confusion whatsoever. So even if it was

11 not exactly an answer to -- a properly translated question, then the

12 answer is clear. Yes.

13 May I then ask the Defence whether the Defence is ready to call

14 its -- oh, yes, we first have to deal with the documents. You see that

15 even my routine after two weeks is a bit disturbed.

16 Madam Registrar, could you please guide us.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1819, map showing Novi Grad and Ilidza;

18 Exhibit D1820, map marked by witness; Exhibit D1821, daily SITREP for 11

19 January 1994; Exhibit D1822, daily SITREP, 10 January 1994; Exhibit D1823,

20 daily SITREP, 11 January 1994.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I noticed that only on map 1820

22 any marking was made. 1819 was unmarked. Does the Defence nevertheless

23 insist where we have already have quite some copies of these maps. So

24 then I conclude that 1819 is not tendered any more, and the other

25 documents, 1820 and the following -- the following numbers that they're

Page 17316

1 admitted into evidence being there are no objections.

2 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness, Mr. Pashchenko, if

3 I'm well informed?

4 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

5 We started only at -- after 2.30, so I wonder whether it would be

6 wise to have the break now, perhaps, and then retake our usual schedule.

7 I think that would be the wisest thing to do.

8 So we'll then adjourn until quarter past 4.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to call --

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to examine the witness or --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll start, but my colleague will

15 continue.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So my words are translated in your own language?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is off.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please put on the

22 microphone of the witness, because the interpreters are not able to

23 translate his words.

24 Could you please repeat your answers to my last questions. I took

25 it that you said that you could hear me in a language you understand and

Page 17317

1 it was your own language.

2 I'm also informed that --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my native language,

4 Russian.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also understand that you understand the

6 English language to the extent that you are aware of the content of the

7 solemn declaration that the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to

8 make. If that is true, if your knowledge of the English language is

9 sufficient to understand these words, I invite you to make that solemn

10 declaration.

11 If, however, you'd prefer to do it in your own language, then I'll

12 first read it, ask it to be translated, and then you will repeat these

13 words. But if you are willing to do it in English, that would be fine.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that in order not to waste

15 time, I can read it out in English.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher now hands out to you the text of the

17 solemn declaration. May I invite you to make that declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Pashchenko. Please be

23 seated.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by counsel for the Defence.

Page 17318

1 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. Can you tell us your name, your full name, please.

5 A. Viktor Petrovich Pashchenko.

6 Q. When were you born?

7 A. On the 26th of October -- the 26th of October, 1961.

8 Q. Could you tell us what is your educational background.

9 A. I have a military education. I am an air gunman, navigator. I

10 was an officer -- a staff officer in charge of internal cooperation and

11 assistance.

12 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, could you please tell us when did you become a

13 member of UNPROFOR forces.

14 A. I arrived at the mission on the 18th of January, 1993.

15 Q. When you say that you arrived there on the 18th of January, 1993,

16 could you tell us where that was and how long did you stay there, starting

17 on January 18th.

18 A. Initially we arrived in Zagreb. Two days after that we flew on

19 the UN plane to Sarajevo. We spent three days in the Ukrainian Battalion,

20 after which I was appointed deputy in the cooperation office, and I

21 arrived in the PTT building of the Sarajevo sector headquarters.

22 Q. How long did you remain there?

23 A. I remained in that office until the 30th of August, 1993, at which

24 time I was appointed to the staff office in Zagreb.

25 Q. Could you tell us how long did you remain at the office in Zagreb.

Page 17319

1 A. I remained at our force's office in Zagreb until the 14th of

2 February, 1994.

3 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, when you arrived in Sarajevo, you told us that you

4 were stationed in the Ukrainian Battalion. Can you tell us where was the

5 Ukrainian Battalion stationed at the time in January of 1993?

6 A. The Ukrainian Battalion was stationed in the Tito barracks in

7 Sarajevo.

8 Q. You told us that you remained in that part of town for three days,

9 meaning in the Tito barracks. During those three days, did you move about

10 the barracks and did you know whether there were any other troops billeted

11 there in that barracks?

12 A. Since the battalion occupied two buildings of the barracks, not

13 counting the cafeteria and the warehouse, I naturally moved about that

14 area during those three days, within the perimeter of the barracks, and

15 other than soldiers of the Ukrainian Battalion, there were no other troops

16 there except for the Dutch communications centre.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pashchenko, you told us that after those three

18 days you moved into the PTT building where your office was. Can you

19 describe in detail your workplace in the PTT building.

20 A. My workplace was in an office for cooperation and communications

21 with the warring parties. In that office there was the head of the

22 office, his deputy, and the officers of that department. In total there

23 were five people there from various countries. The office was on the same

24 floor as the office of the sector commander, his deputy, chief of staff,

25 operations centre, and the operations centre of military observers.

Page 17320

1 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, could you tell us who was the commander of sector

2 at the time when you were there, meaning starting on the 18th of January

3 up until the 30th of August, 1993?

4 A. I know that at the same time when I arrived Colonel Valentin was

5 appointed sector commander. He was a Frenchman.

6 Q. Thank you. And before we get to the issue of your duties when it

7 came to cooperation with warring parties, could you tell us whether you

8 held a rank at the time and what was it.

9 A. I was a major at the time.

10 Q. And what rank do you hold now?

11 A. Reserve colonel, since I left the active military service six

12 years ago.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pashchenko, you told us that you worked at the

14 office for cooperation with warring parties. Could you tell us what

15 duties you had there.

16 A. I had one single duty from the time I arrived until I left for

17 Zagreb. I was deputy head in the department for cooperation and

18 communications with warring parties.

19 Q. You say that you were deputy head of the department for

20 cooperation with warring parties. Can you tell us, as such, as the deputy

21 head, did you receive protests and upon receiving them did you personally

22 compile reports? Or rather, what were your daily tasks?

23 A. I analysed all documents that arrived in our office and were given

24 to the liaison officers, and I forwarded that to the superiors, either to

25 the sector commander or to other superiors. My other duties included

Page 17321

1 negotiations on preparing meetings between superiors in order to reach

2 cease-fire agreements or some other matters. In addition to that, my

3 daily tasks also included efforts put in in order to receive approval from

4 warring parties on the membership of UN missions. Also on convoys that

5 were passing, on engineering missions, movements of UN troops, and similar

6 matters.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pashchenko, you told us that one of your main

8 tasks was to receive reports from liaison officers of the warring parties.

9 Now, could you tell us where were the offices of liaison officers located

10 and which sides had their liaison officers that you contacted.

11 A. At the time there were three offices for cooperation: On the

12 Croatian side, the side of the Bosnian army, and on the Serbian side as

13 well. They were located on the first floor in the same hallway.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The first floor could

15 also mean the ground floor.

16 Q. If I understood you well, the officers of the warring parties that

17 you just mentioned gave you their protests. And based on these protests,

18 you compiled your reports. Could you tell us what was contained in the

19 protests that were given to you by liaison officers of the warring

20 parties? What was their content?

21 A. I received not only protests but also the entire information that

22 the officers for cooperation were supposed to give to the sector

23 commander. My role was there simply a member in the chain. I received

24 documents that contained either protests or some proposals and similar

25 things, and then I would pass it on to my superiors.

Page 17322












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 17322 to 17329.













Page 17330

1 Q. You say that you received documents or protests. My question was:

2 What was the content of these protests or documents that you received as

3 simply a person in the chain of communications, the documents that you

4 simply passed on further to your superiors?

5 A. These were letters written either by the commanders of various

6 warring parties and intended either to the -- to our commander or the

7 sector commander. These letters occasionally contained either proposals

8 for future meetings with various agendas to be discussed. Sometimes those

9 were protest notes in which they protested various activities of the

10 opposing party. So just all kinds of matters that are normally contained

11 in correspondence between the sector commander and the warring sides.

12 Occasionally liaison officers would come directly to the office of

13 the sector commander and deliver letters directly. Therefore, I don't

14 know what was contained in those letters that were directly delivered to

15 the office of the sector commander.

16 Q. But you told us that you received protests in which one side

17 protested against the activity of the opposing side. Can you tell us what

18 was normally contained in those protests or what kind of activity of the

19 opposing side was protested.

20 A. I received such protests from the officers of the Army of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina. They usually contained information to the effect that

22 today these or those areas of Sarajevo were shelled, as a result of which

23 they were lodging in a protest.

24 Q. Upon receiving such protests, did you verify whether there indeed

25 was such an incident?

Page 17331

1 A. Certainly. In order to do that I visited the operations centre

2 daily and the headquarters of military observers. I received appropriate

3 orders from the battalion and the summary at the operations centre as well

4 as reports from military observers. Then I would compare their data with

5 what I could see on the map, meaning that I would look for confirmation.

6 Q. Upon receiving a protest -- for example, you said that a protest

7 was from the BH army -- and upon verifying that through military observers

8 and the information given to you at the operations centre, did you then,

9 based on that data, compile a daily report?

10 A. If I was able to confirm that information, then a protest would be

11 compiled that would be passed on to the liaison officer of the opposing

12 side, the side that was accused of initiating the shelling.

13 Q. Upon compiling a protest of that nature, based on the reports that

14 you had received prior to that and verified, can you tell us whether in

15 this report of yours which later on was sent as a protest to one of the

16 warring parties were there accurate data there as to the targets shelled

17 and the extent of destruction?

18 A. If the information on the extent of destruction and targets was

19 contained in the reports of military observers, then it was included in

20 our protests as well. But mainly we put in only coordinates of the area

21 shelled. Therefore, after verifying and comparing the data with the map,

22 the data contained in the reports, then that data would be included in the

23 protests.

24 Q. If I understood you well, you have just told us that these

25 protests and your daily reports contained only the information concerning

Page 17332

1 coordinates of locations which were shelled and locations from which the

2 fire originated.

3 A. That is correct. We would have the coordinates of the place

4 shelled, and these coordinates were supplied by UN personnel.

5 Q. When compiling your reports, would you receive and put in the

6 information regarding concrete incidents about the shelling? Did you also

7 receive any information as to possible investigations of such incidents?

8 A. Well, we would receive information if it made part of the

9 remonstrance of the protest of the BH army. This information would be

10 submitted to the sector commander and they would then decide which of the

11 UN parts, which of the links there was to investigate the incident and

12 check whether that incident did indeed happen or not, so that the answer,

13 the response, as to yes, this information has been confirmed or it has

14 been investigated by UN personnel and such and such conclusions can be

15 drawn, such information never passed through my hands.

16 Q. So you're telling us that during the time of your service there,

17 you have no further knowledge about any investigation conducted of any

18 incident.

19 A. I don't.

20 Q. Can you tell us - and I am still referring to the period between

21 the 18th of January to the 30th of August - did you ever receive a report

22 or a protest letter or one of the belligerents concerning something that

23 had happened at a place which then caused casualties or fatalities of a

24 number of soldiers? Did you ever receive such report or shall I call it a

25 protest?

Page 17333

1 A. Yes. From the signals officer of Bosnia and Herzegovina I would

2 receive such information, but that information came from them, that is,

3 without any corroboration by UN personnel.

4 Q. Did you ever receive reports from your military observers that in

5 a particular part of the city of Sarajevo controlled by the Muslim forces

6 about incidents with major casualties, be it civilian or military?

7 A. Military observers, if they had such information, they submitted

8 it to their headquarters, from which it then went to the upper rung and,

9 therefore, could not possibly get to my office for cooperation, because

10 such information went beyond our terms of reference, our jurisdiction.

11 Q. During your term at your workplace did you ever receive

12 information either from the belligerents or from the military observers

13 that an incident had taken place in a part of the city where there had

14 been a football match and that a number of people perished there, that is,

15 were either wounded or killed? Did you ever receive information related

16 to a football match?

17 A. I didn't. I never received such a report.

18 Q. Did you personally - if you didn't get such a report, then you

19 tell us you didn't - did you hear about such an incident whilst you were

20 in the PTT?

21 A. Well, these are two different things, to get an official report

22 and the hearsay. True, I did not hear about this incident. Yes, I did

23 hear about some other incidents but not about this one.

24 Q. You told us that you heard some other things about some other

25 incidents. Can you tell us what incident or incidents did you hear about.

Page 17334

1 And if you did, did you get an official report or did you see an official

2 report about such an incident or such incidents during the time that you

3 were there?

4 A. Yes. There was this incident when a mine exploded amongst people

5 who were queuing for water, and another one which went off near a bus stop

6 where people were waiting to move on, waiting for the bus or a tram.

7 Q. When you told us about these two incidents, that you'd heard about

8 them, can you tell us, did, to your knowledge, a report come to your

9 sector saying that an investigation had been conducted of these incidents?

10 And if so, do you know who conducted such an investigation?

11 A. Such information did not pass through my office.

12 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, when you told us that you received protest letters

13 from the belligerents and that on the basis of reports received from

14 military observers, specifically when you went out to check such protests,

15 that coordinates would be put in, can you tell us if you personally were

16 familiar with the deployment and positions of the parties to the conflict

17 in the city of Sarajevo?

18 A. We marked only the confrontation lines on our maps, and we never

19 had the deployment of the two parties to the conflict. And as far as I

20 understand those things, it could not be done at all.

21 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, are you telling us that you did not have

22 information specifically about the deployment of troops and the command

23 posts of the BH army?

24 A. The information on the location of the headquarters, be it main

25 headquarters or the brigades, yes, we did have that on our map. But

Page 17335

1 specifically regarding the positions, no, we did not have that.

2 Q. When you say that you had drawn on the maps the command posts of

3 the brigades, if I understand you well, but that you did not have other

4 command posts, does this mean that all the subordinate command posts - I

5 mean, those inferior to the brigade command posts - that you were not

6 aware of their location?

7 A. I did not know it, since the minimum -- we indicated only the

8 brigade headquarters and upper rungs, and that was the minimum that we put

9 in.

10 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, did you know which were the buildings where the

11 brigade command posts were and in which part of the city were they, if you

12 can remember, of course, approximately? Will you tell us that?

13 A. No, I cannot remember that, because even at that time I wasn't

14 really interested in knowing where were their practical positions, since I

15 worked with the representatives of the parties of the conflict to avoid

16 any misunderstanding, any suspicion that I might be conveying information

17 from one party to the other. I simply could not ask for or even receive

18 such information.

19 Q. During your term, during your tour of duty there, did you have any

20 knowledge as to the weaponry available to the parties of the conflict?

21 A. There was the UN manual for that, and it listed all the existing

22 weaponry that was at the disposal of the parties of the conflict. The

23 quantities, I, of course, did not know.

24 Q. So you're telling us that during your tour of duty you were not in

25 a position to see the weaponry used, say, by the BH army.

Page 17336

1 A. You know, to all intents and purposes, I went to the headquarters

2 at Lukavica once or maybe twice a day. But all I could see were light

3 weapons, that is, those weapons which the military carried with them. I

4 never visited any positions.

5 Q. You tell us that you went to Lukavica. Can you tell us what was

6 your cooperation with the liaison officer like? First in the PTT and

7 later on in Lukavica when you went there.

8 A. Since it was indispensable to receive the consent of the to-go men

9 for the UN units to perform their tasks, every day we would submit a

10 request with a plan explaining what the UN was planning to do the next

11 day. And daily I would accompany the Serb liaison officer to Lukavica

12 across the confrontation line because that was what one had to do at the

13 time.

14 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, when you tell us that you did not visit the

15 positions of the belligerents, can you tell us if during your tour of duty

16 in Sarajevo and at your workplace you became familiar with the positions

17 of the parties to the conflict. Or concretely, I will ask you, did you

18 know where the positions of the BH army were?

19 A. No, I could not, because I did not have that kind of information.

20 As far as I know, not even the operations centre had such information.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you -- I've listened now to

22 this testimony for approximately 40 minutes. It came into my mind, that

23 is, if you were asking mathematical matters to a historian or medical

24 matters to a -- or someone who is very good in building houses. Why would

25 you not ask what the witness knows and what he learned while performing

Page 17337

1 his duties instead of asking for 40 minutes now what he does not know

2 because it was not within his competence but in the competence of other

3 people? Evidence may be very important if it relates directly to the

4 tasks and the duties of a person. Ignorance in other fields might be of

5 less assistance for the Chamber to understand. We'd really like to be fed

6 with information that assists us.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I understand

8 that. And I'm trying my best by asking these questions, since the witness

9 spoke about coordinates and maps and in view of the time he spent in

10 Sarajevo, I deem that on the basis of such information he was in a

11 position to know the positions of the parties to the conflict --

12 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to discuss it. But please keep these

13 things in mind when examining the witness.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, when you told us that on the basis of the

16 coordinates which you received from your battalions, can you also tell us

17 if you knew the deployment of the battalions from which you received the

18 reports about certain places, certain coordinates that had been shelled?

19 A. What is specifically at a place indicated by the coordinates, that

20 is something I did not know, except, of course, for that part of Sarajevo

21 where I happened to be, that is, the area between the PTT building to the

22 Ukrainian Battalion and the part of Sarajevo between the PTT building via

23 the airport to Lukavica. Therefore, when I found locations marked by

24 coordinates on the map, then of course I could imagine what was there,

25 what kind of buildings, whether they were skyscrapers, residential

Page 17338

1 buildings, or something else, or perhaps whether it was an unbuilt area.

2 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, when you told us that you were familiar with the

3 area around the PTT building and the area around the Ukrainian Battalion,

4 did you ever during your tour of duty -- were you ever present at an

5 incident when weapons were used by either party?

6 A. Yes, once. I was with the Ukrainian Battalion, and another

7 time -- that is, when I was at my workplace or in a room where I lived in

8 the sector headquarters, I witnessed the beginning of fire from different

9 types of weapons, either a sporadic fire or sporadic shots.

10 Q. Were you ever present at the incident which happened near your

11 building, when weapons mounted on a vehicle were used? Did you ever see

12 such a case of weapon use?

13 A. Once through the window of the room that I lived in I saw that,

14 because before that a few times I could hear the sound well, realising

15 that mortar shots were being fired in front of our building. So once when

16 there was such a shot I tried to open the window, of course being

17 careful. But I did lean through the window and I managed to see a truck

18 of medium size with a blue canvas, and this canvas was lifted on the

19 opposite side and I heard three mortar shots. And after that the truck

20 left. This happened literally 5 or 10, perhaps, metres from the walls of

21 our building. But basically I witnessed - how shall I call it? - incoming

22 shots, both when I was with the Ukrainian Battalion, at the headquarters,

23 that is, or when I was in the PTT building.

24 Likewise, when I arrived in Sarajevo, and having been briefed to

25 always seek shelter, because there were sporadic exchanges of fire and

Page 17339

1 snipers were active. In February 1993, towards the end of the day, that

2 is, at dusk, I was quite often on the PTT building roof. And I would

3 spend there 40, 50 minutes just listening to what was happening.

4 Also, I heard incoming and outgoing shots. Only once I heard an

5 incoming shot, an explosion --

6 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, you told us to be more concrete, more precise.

7 When you mentioned this moving, shall I call it, truck, did you

8 personally receive information -- first, did you see men driving that

9 truck, and did you have information as to which army used that type of

10 trucks and which army fired from such a vehicle?

11 A. No. Since the truck was parked quite near us and I was watching

12 it from the second floor, I could not see whether there was anyone in this

13 truck and the canvas was up on the other side, so that I could not see who

14 was under that canvas. As I have said, it was a medium-sized civilian

15 truck with the blue tarpaulin, with the blue cover, nothing special. I

16 mean, you know, this was just an ordinary truck. Such trucks are used

17 by -- can be used by anybody.

18 Q. But did you see in which direction was fire opened from such a

19 truck?

20 A. My windows overlooked skyscrapers in the area called

21 Alipasino Polje, so that the shots were being fired in that direction.

22 Q. Mr. Pashchenko, if the Defence shows you the map of the city of

23 Sarajevo, could you point at places where coordinates were marked and

24 where the positions of the two parties to the conflict were?

25 A. As I have already told you, the coordinates or the positions, I

Page 17340

1 did not know. I did not know where the positions were. I know the

2 contours of the confrontation lines. I know where the UN battalions were

3 quartered in Sarajevo. But the positions of the belligerents, I did not

4 know them. If you mean the coordinates of the incident that I told you

5 about, that I can show you.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will now

7 continue with the examination.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 I'm looking at the watch. When will we have the next break?

11 JUDGE ORIE: In approximately a quarter of an hour.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Could we show an exhibit, which will be the map, with the

14 assistance of the usher.

15 Mr. President, it's a black-and-white copy of the map that we

16 usually use, but there is only one copy, and I would be grateful if the

17 usher could position it as best as possible to make it visible on the

18 screen. What we are interested in, naturally, is the position of the PTT

19 building; that is to say -- it's the left part of the map, the western

20 part.

21 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you recognise this map?

23 A. Yes. This is the map of Sarajevo.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, would you be able to indicate the PTT

25 building that you were in? Could you indicate this on the map?

Page 17341

1 A. Yes. I know where the building is. This is where it is located.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to the

4 building that we are familiar with.

5 Does everyone have the map? I'll wait for a minute.

6 THE REGISTRAR: D1824. And may we have copies for the

7 Trial Chamber, please.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have a certain number of

9 copies. I think that they are over there.

10 I'm afraid that the registrar has -- Madam Registrar has too many

11 copies now. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, now that we all have the map, could you please indicate

13 again the location of the building, the one that you said was the PTT

14 building.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there's really no need, if we are

16 talking about the PTT building where the headquarters of the UN were, to

17 ask it twice to the witness, unless you expect the witness to testify

18 about another PTT building where he was located different from anyone

19 else. Please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. The matter wasn't

21 clear for me. But if the matter is clear, very well.

22 Q. Witness, could you indicate from the PTT building that you pointed

23 to, could you indicate the direction of fire that you referred to a minute

24 ago. A minute ago you mentioned a direction of fire. Could you please

25 indicate this direction by using your pointer.

Page 17342

1 A. My room -- or rather, the windows of my room faced the south side

2 of that building, and the direction of the fire was directed towards the

3 south, across Alipasino Polje. I don't know the exact direction. Plus or

4 minus 15 degrees.

5 Q. Very well. But I would appreciate it if -- we can't see anything

6 any more. It would be good if we could see the Alipasino Polje, if we

7 could have a broader view.

8 Again, what we can now see on the screen, witness, I would

9 appreciate it if you would trace the direction on the map, by using the

10 pointer first of all, very roughly.

11 A. I believe that it was approximately in this direction.

12 Q. Very well. Could you please take a marker that you will be

13 provided with and trace a line on the axis that you have just indicated.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask you -- witness, it should be a

15 black -- black, not any other colour. Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. I believe that this axis was in the central direction. But it

20 could have been also more to the left or to the right.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the moment we can leave

23 this map -- no, just a minute. Thank you.

24 We could have a look at the eastern part of the map now. Thank

25 you. Not the hills, in fact. It's the town that we are interested in.

Page 17343

1 And if possible, the part of the town -- not the hills. There we are.

2 That's perfect.

3 Q. Witness, could you indicate in this part of the map with number

4 "1" the location of the Ukrainian Battalion. Could you indicate this,

5 please.

6 A. As I have already said, the Ukrainian Battalion was stationed in

7 the Tito barracks. I believe that it's either here or here.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you mark the zone that you have

9 pointed out to with a number "1," the zone that corresponds to the Tito

10 barracks, using a black felt-tip, of course?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Thank you. Could you do the same thing, witness, for the

13 Egyptian Battalion, if you are able to locate it. Use the pointer first

14 of all. Thank you.

15 A. The Egyptian Battalion was in Bistrik area, the so-called Bistrik

16 area.

17 Q. Mark it with a number "2."

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 Witness, you spoke a minute ago about the positions of brigades.

21 Do you know where the 10th Brigade was located? And this concern it is

22 most important brigades.

23 A. To be honest, it's very difficult to recall the numbers of the

24 brigades as well as their deployment and the locations of the flags on the

25 maps. I know that two of them, two flags, as far as I can remember, were

Page 17344

1 near the Ukrainian Battalion and the Egyptian one.

2 Q. Ukrainian -- very well. Thank you. When you say "two flags,"

3 that means one near to the Ukrainian Battalion and one close to the

4 Egyptian Battalion; yes or no?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go back to the Bistrik zone,

7 witness. Does the name Caco mean anything to you; yes or no?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Does the name Commander Caco mean anything to you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. I would now like to put the map aside. We will have

12 another look at it later. But I would like to show the witness some other

13 documents.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] First of all, Exhibit 1825.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any copies available for the Bench?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, obviously. But they are

17 in the process of being distributed, Mr. President.


19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, there is an R number on the document.

21 Would that still ask for ...?

22 MR. MUNDIS: The case manager, Miss McCreath, is checking that at

23 the moment, Mr. President.


25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 17345

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Rule 70 clearance for this

2 document has not been lifted, so we would respectfully request that we go

3 into private session.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then go into -- if the document would have to

5 be put on the ELMO, then we would have to go into -- it was already on the

6 ELMO. It was not on the ELMO? This document.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it's possible.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I then order that this picture on the ELMO

10 would not be -- does that have to be done in a written decision or ...?

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber gives the order that the -- for the

13 very, very short moment that the document has been put on the ELMO, that

14 this will not be broadcasted.

15 And we turn now into private session, and the document should not

16 be put on the ELMO.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17346












12 Page 17346 redacted private session














Page 17347












12 Page 17347 redacted private session














Page 17348

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, I'd like to put the same question to you about this

14 document, the form of this document. I think you can recognise it; yes or

15 no?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you very much. I would now like to concentrate on page 556,

18 and the item concerned is J. This is the period from the 12th to the 18th

19 of February, 1993, which is the period that you were familiar with. This

20 concerns point 1, that starts with the word "Sarajevo."

21 Have you had the time to read what is under item 1?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Just to make sure, first of all, your knowledge of

24 the English language is sufficient to understand this document which is in

25 the English language?

Page 17349

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sufficient.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you asked the

3 witness also to read point 1 as it continues on page 557, because under

4 G1, it seems to have been highlighted in one way or the other, what is not

5 on the next page. So could you please verify up to --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I saw the

7 witness turn the page, and I asked him to read what is under item 1, from

8 G1 up until G2. I think he understood me and that he did this. If this

9 is not the case, he could take some more time to do this.

10 Q. The second page, 557, would be useful to understand the matter. I

11 can see that the witness is nodding.

12 Witness, what I'm interested in here is the incident which

13 occurred -- with regard to the point called Papa 5. The first question

14 is: Do you know where Papa 5 was located; yes or no?

15 A. Yes, I do. It's an observation platform.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us where it is?

17 A. I can indicate that location on a map with a good degree of

18 accuracy.

19 Q. Very well. We will see about that later if it is necessary.

20 Thank you. Perhaps we will do that later.

21 With regard to this incident, were you informed of it while you

22 were in Sarajevo, were you informed of such accidents, such firing

23 accidents; yes or no?

24 A. Yes, but probably --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat. We didn't hear

Page 17350

1 the end of the answer.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- the interpreters asked the witness to

3 repeat the last part of his answer.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was informed about such incidents,

5 but probably not about all of them.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. Witness, with regard to the incident that this document deals

9 with, my first question is: Do you remember this incident precisely; yes

10 or no?

11 A. I remember it.

12 Q. Thank you. Here it states that a protest was lodged with a member

13 of the military and that this member of the military said that punitive

14 measures would be taken. Can you confirm this; yes or no?

15 A. I wasn't in the position to know that, because senior military

16 observer acted according to his own discretion and instructions given by

17 the superiors. I didn't participate in this.

18 Q. Very well. Later on were you aware of the fact that the member of

19 the military in question apparently said that punitive measures would be

20 taken; yes or no?

21 A. We discussed various cases with military observers there, and

22 there were not many military observers there.

23 Q. Very well. But my question was as follows -- I will rephrase it,

24 and if you could answer by saying yes or no, I would appreciate that,

25 witness: After the incident, did you know -- were you aware of the fact

Page 17351

1 that the member of the military who was contacted by your department

2 apparently stated that punitive measures would be taken; yes or no?

3 A. No, I didn't know that.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would now like to hand out a

6 document, which bears the number 1827, one-eight-two-seven. It's a

7 document of the same kind, but it has an "R" on it, unless it's an "A."

8 So perhaps we have a problem before we put it on the ELMO. But perhaps

9 it's not even necessary for us to put it on the ELMO, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But if we discuss the content of the document, we

11 should turn into private session.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Rule 70 restriction has been

13 lifted with respect to this document.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So we can remain in open session.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. In this document -- I think it's on the screen now, witness. I

18 can see a lot of things on the screen now. Thank you, and the usual

19 question, yet again: Do you recognise this kind of document?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you please have a look at page 2, which has the

22 number 187 at the end. Thank you. You've got it. What we are interested

23 in in particular is item A on page 2.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

Page 17352

1 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would object to this document being

2 shown to the witness on the grounds that it on its face was created after

3 the witness's departure from the command.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am perfectly

7 well aware of the fact that there is this problem as far as the chronology

8 and the dates are concerned, but we know that the witness remained in the

9 area of Bosnia in a sense since at the time he was in the Zagreb HQ, and

10 my question does not concern the facts that are described under item A.

11 It concerns the location with regard to these facts. And I think that the

12 witness can talk about this in very clear terms. Does this clarify the

13 matter?


15 Mr. Mundis, would you still stick to your objection or ...?

16 MR. MUNDIS: It certainly will depend on the precise questions

17 that are asked.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're

19 allowed to proceed. We'll hear the questions.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 Q. The reason is the following: To begin with, witness, did you have

22 time to read item 1 -- item A? Have you read it?

23 A. I'm about to finish it, yes. Yes, I've finished.

24 Q. Thank you. My question is as follows: We have here somewhere

25 what I will now read to you: [In English] "Serbs have retaliated by heavy

Page 17353

1 shelling in the old part of the city." [Interpretation] Thank you very

2 much.

3 The question is as follows: In relation to these attacks, such a

4 document -- this document talks about the old city. Now, what does that

5 mean, since we do not have the proper topographic reference, that is, we

6 do not have the coordinates here?

7 A. I dealt with this document directly, since in Zagreb I was the

8 duty officer of the operations centre there. And since I was on duty

9 round the clock, as any other duty officer, it was my duty to go through

10 all such documents which we received from UN forces and then compiling the

11 report on behalf of the UNPROFOR as such as a whole for New York and for

12 Geneva. Therefore, in response to your question, I can tell you that the

13 old part of the city, in this particular case, meant the area around the

14 Egyptian Battalion.

15 Q. Thank you very much. The area which is around the Egyptian

16 building, was it the -- also area which we can define as the area of

17 Bistrik, as far as you can remember?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Thank you. Last question regarding this document, witness: In

20 the area of Bistrik, do you know if there were some Belgian [as

21 interpreted] Brigade command posts?

22 A. As I have already said, the map only said brigade headquarters not

23 far from where the Egyptian Battalion was deployed.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, we've finished -- we're done with

25 this document. Perhaps we shall come back to it. But I hope you still

Page 17354

1 have before you the previous document -- no, no. Perhaps we'll come to it

2 later. We'll come to that.

3 Now I would like to ask you some questions concerning --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was just wondering, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

5 transcript says -- says something about a Belgian brigade. Did you say

6 BiH or -- I didn't follow you in French. BiH?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I smile because we're not

8 talking about the Belgian army but we're talking -- we can only talk

9 about -- I remember saying the BH, BH Battalion. Yes, I'm sorry. I was

10 not following the transcript. Thank you very much for noticing this.

11 Q. Witness, I'd like you to tell us if during your tour of duty in

12 Sarajevo you were able to travel frequently, to move about the city. Yes

13 or no?

14 A. Not often.

15 Q. All right. See, if it is "not often," then how often?

16 A. Two, not more than three times a week I visited the

17 Ukrainian Battalion.

18 Q. Very well. And in which zone could you move around?

19 A. During my tour of duty in Sarajevo, UN personnel was forbidden to

20 move freely wherever, so that I went from PTT building to the Tito

21 barracks in an armoured vehicle, and therefore from the PTT to the

22 headquarters at Lukavica in an armoured vehicle again.

23 Q. Thank you. And during those trips, witness, did you see any

24 civilians in the streets; yes or no?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 17355

1 Q. Thank you. And insofar as you saw them, what could you tell us

2 about their clothing in general?

3 A. Well, that varies from one man to the other. But generally

4 speaking, people wore what they had. Practically, of course, at times

5 their clothes looked as if coming from different suits, different parts of

6 different suits.

7 Q. Thank you. Concretely, did you ever happen to see civilians

8 wearing parts or whole military uniforms; yes or no?

9 A. Well, if you mean camouflage clothing as part of military

10 uniforms, such as jackets or vests or trousers, yes, one could see people

11 wearing parts of military uniform.

12 Q. And did it apply to both women and men, elderly and younger

13 people, and so on and so forth?

14 A. Well, women less than men, but I also saw women wearing camouflage

15 vests.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, during your trips around, did you frequently

17 come across such clothes on individuals who did not seem to be military?

18 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That calls for

19 speculation.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will reword it,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. How often -- how often did you happen across individuals wearing

Page 17356

1 such different parts of uniform?

2 A. Well, every time practically, every time I moved out. In some

3 areas I came across more such individuals, and in other areas, I came

4 across less such individuals.

5 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like to go back to those trips

6 and the destruction of Sarajevo. Since you were stationed in the city and

7 could move around, I'd like you to tell us what was the difference

8 concerning the destruction of buildings between the confrontation lines

9 and other parts of the city.

10 A. Bearing in mind that the confrontation -- that I crossed the

11 confrontation line on my way to the airport, there was a difference in

12 that area, because in the area of the confrontation line, there were

13 residential buildings, private houses, that is, and they had become

14 inhabitable [as interpreted]. They were so badly damaged at that time

15 that they were practically inhabitable [as interpreted].

16 Q. Very well. Does your answer mean that did this not hold true of

17 other areas that you knew? For instance, the centre of the city?

18 A. In the centre of the city were mostly high-rise buildings, and the

19 damage done to them was also considerable, but not 100 per cent, such as

20 along the confrontation line. Along the confrontation line, private

21 houses were practically 100 per cent destroyed.

22 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And still -- I'm still on the same

23 subject. Did you see with your own eyes, you personally, minarets? I am

24 saying minarets which were targeted and destroyed. Yes or no? By

25 "destroyed," I mean totally annihilated.

Page 17357

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you. We are still talking about shelling. Did you,

3 Witness, either in Sarajevo or elsewhere in the course of your military

4 career, did you ever see craters caused by mortars; yes or no?

5 A. Since I became a military observer at a later stage, I did see

6 craters made by mortars, so their depth, their size, depended on the soil

7 and the calibre of the projectile.

8 Q. Did you ever see in Sarajevo, witness, and on the asphalt craters

9 which have gone through the asphalt or concrete, as the case may be, and

10 at the bottom of which the end part of the shell would still be planted in

11 the soil, that part which we call the stabiliser, the tail fin? Yes or

12 no, did you ever see that?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, I'll go back to provocations that you mentioned

15 earlier, that is, that truck with the blue canvas that you described to

16 us. You told us that you saw it near the PTT building. Do you know if

17 that kind of interventions, that is, shots from a mobile vehicle happened

18 several times? Did this happen repeatedly?

19 A. No. That vehicle was stationary. Four shots were fired. And

20 that was a small diameter mortar.

21 Q. Thank you. My question did -- not to find out whether this

22 vehicle was moving or not. Perhaps we have an interpretation problem

23 there. My question was -- had to do with whether this kind of strategy,

24 that is, opening fire from a truck or from around the truck and then leave

25 this site -- is this something that you know happened or did not happen

Page 17358

1 repeatedly; yes or no? Were you aware of such a strategy?

2 A. Yes. So there were such cases.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you tell us if to your knowledge it also

4 happened in other areas, such as in other areas except around the PTT

5 building?

6 A. According to the information received from battalion officers in

7 the Tito barracks, such cases happened in their area once or twice a

8 month, and the same holds true of the PTT.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm listening to

11 the Russian interpretation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The problem seems to be -- have been solved, so

13 please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you from the bottom of

15 my heart. Thank you very much.

16 Q. I will now follow up on your answer. Do you know if other -- if

17 other buildings were used as a kind of shelter for such strategic shots?

18 A. If you mean the mortar fire, then I do not know. But in Sarajevo

19 are buildings only. It's not an open field. It's not a forest. So this

20 was the territory which was fired at and from which fire came.

21 Q. Thank you very much. You are a military expert. Why do you think

22 fire was opened under those circumstances? I mean, in the vicinity of

23 your building.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. That calls for speculation. And there's

25 certainly no indication that this witness is a military expert.

Page 17359

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please first, having listened to the

2 military explanations, but clarify the military expertise specifically in

3 this field.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps let's -- let's ask it a different way.

6 Mr. Pashchenko, have you any idea on why shots were fired under

7 these circumstances from these positions?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Being a military man, educated in a

9 manner which allows me to command a regiment, and therefore I was

10 trained -- I learnt about the tactics and conduct of combat. So I think

11 this strategy could pursue two objectives: First, the mobility. And when

12 you are mobile enough, then you suffer a minimum risk of being targeted or

13 hit. And a second objective which perhaps existed - or perhaps it

14 didn't - it could be a planned place from which shots could be fired, or

15 perhaps it was a provocation. Perhaps they were trying to provoke the

16 response fire which would then -- would nearly hit the UN.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, I'd now like to go back to the question of protests.

21 First, did you or your men receive protests from the Serb side, from the

22 Serb party?

23 A. No. The Serb side never lodged a protest.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you've just moved to your next

Page 17360

1 subject. I'm looking at the clock. There are approximately 12 minutes

2 remaining for the examination-in-chief. In view of the experience we had

3 during the testimony of this witness, I'll be very strict in limiting you

4 to two hours. Yes, please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. That will suffice.

6 Thank you very much. That will be quite enough.

7 Q. Witness, I'd now like you to focus on the form of protests that

8 were submitted to you from the other side. You did not receive them from

9 the Serb side.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm interested

11 in the protests of the other party.

12 Q. Do you have any recollection of a protest in writing in which very

13 precise, specific, and detailed information was supplied, such as proof

14 of, say, a sniper, an active sniper - yes or no? - I'm saying which could

15 be proof of a sniper.

16 A. Only the UN could really supply something that would be tantamount

17 to evidence, to proof. In such protests there was no concrete

18 information.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pashchenko, could you please explain, because I

21 have some difficulties understanding, what do you exactly mean by that

22 there was no concrete information? Are you referring to specific evidence

23 on the incident or on -- where the incident took place or what the

24 incident was actually about? Could you please clarify your answer.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The protests that we -- that my

Page 17361

1 office received did not contain information about sniper activities and

2 casualties, that is, individuals, with their names and the exact location

3 of such incidents.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 Q. To come back to this: When combat happened, when there was a

7 combat, was there a risk of stray bullets; yes or no?

8 A. I believe so. I think so, because there were such bullets which

9 strayed into the PTT building.

10 Q. And now a question which has to do with the ricochet. Was there a

11 technical possibility of ricochets; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, you tell us that bullets could stray or could

14 ricochet. Is it possible for either -- for them to cause losses, to cause

15 casualties, human casualties; yes or no?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you received information, whatever,

18 about possible fatalities somewhere, could you technically exclude at the

19 level of your office the possibility of a ricochet or a stray bullet; yes

20 or no?

21 A. I have already said that I did not receive such official

22 information.

23 Q. No. But my question is as follows, witness: Technically, when

24 you had information about a wounded or a dead person, could one

25 categorically exclude, yes or no, the possibility, the risk that

Page 17362

1 something -- that this wounding or this death was caused by a stray bullet

2 or a ricochet?

3 A. No. It was impossible to categorically exclude it.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please wait for the witness to

6 answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the interpreters are asking

8 whether you'd like to wait until the witness has finished his answer. And

9 may I perhaps remind you what I said to Ms. Pilipovic before. Questions

10 as to whether we could categorically exclude that during the last year

11 someone became wet because of the rain in the Netherlands are really not

12 assisting the Chamber. I'm just making a comparison, because that happens

13 now and then, and I think you have put a question -- these kind of

14 questions some 30, 40, 50, 60 times to witnesses. Perhaps next time if

15 you ask the question you could give the answer yourself, because it's a

16 matter of logic rather than a matter of knowledge, of facts. Please

17 proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 I'll try to pay attention to logic.

20 Q. To go back to the issue of the airport, witness. Do you know

21 whether the airport was a place where fire was exchanged; yes or no?

22 A. Yes. It was very frequently reported that the airport zone was

23 under fire of various intensity.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, if you know anything about this,

25 where this fire came from, according to what you can remember?

Page 17363

1 A. The airport is located in the -- along the division lines between

2 the two warring parties. And if one looks at the map, those areas were

3 both to the south and to the right of the airport, in the hilly area.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know if there was any cross-fire between the

5 two camps that were facing each other?

6 A. It seems that that's how it was, because people were on both sides

7 of the confrontation lines firing at each other.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the runway at the airport was used

9 by one of the armies to transport military equipment, and in particular

10 weapons?

11 A. The runway at the airport was used only by the UN.

12 Q. Do you know whether non-UN personnel crossed the airport runway?

13 A. Based on the information contained in daily reports, such cases

14 happened at night.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether these people who did not belong to

16 the UN and who would cross the runway, do you know whether they were also

17 trying to bring something in to Sarajevo? And if you know anything about

18 this, what?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Again, calls for speculation, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me put the question a different way to you.

22 Have you any knowledge about people crossing the runway of the airport and

23 bringing, I would say, contraband into Sarajevo?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about

25 contraband. It is clear that people went from here to there and carried

Page 17364

1 something on them.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything about what they carried on them?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You have one minute left, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which won't be used. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, is there -- is the Prosecution ready to

8 start cross-examining the witness?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no questions for

10 this witness.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I've got one or two questions for you.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE ORIE: The first one is: Were protests of civilians also

15 processed through your channels? Because your testimony was mainly about

16 protests about shelling, and I am specifically interested in possible

17 protests of -- concerning sniping coming from civilians.

18 A. It seems that civilian protests went through the civilian police

19 of the UN. My office did not receive such information.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier testified that if there was any protest

21 about sniping that you would not know the exact places or the names of the

22 victims. Would that mean that there were protests about sniping in a more

23 general sense but not on specific incidents? Is that a correct

24 understanding of your testimony?

25 A. Yes. It is correct. The protests on shelling certain areas from

Page 17365

1 mortars were sent to us but not reports on incidents concerning specific

2 persons.

3 JUDGE ORIE: But there were protests about sniping in a more

4 general sense? Is that a correct understanding? Because you said

5 previously that no names and specific locations were known if protests

6 were made in respect of sniping.

7 A. Protests concerning sniping incidents did not basically exist.

8 Sniping incidents were recorded by military monitors and were reported

9 along the chain of command.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to take you back to one of the

11 documents shown to you, and that is D1827. I think that the restrictions

12 were lifted, is that correct, of this document?

13 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Your attention was drawn to the second page, under

15 number A. It reads: "Serbs have retaliated by heavy shelling in the old

16 part of the city." Would you expect these words to have been used if the

17 response would have specifically been targeting the headquarters close to

18 the Egyptian Battalion?

19 A. I would read this to mean that this was a response against the

20 attacking troops and their communications centre, including the position

21 of their headquarters.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So you understand this to be a purely military

23 response.

24 A. Yes. This was a response meant to stop the attacking troops.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer.

Page 17366

1 I have no further questions to you.

2 Is there any need to put additional questions to the witness in

3 respect of the issues dealt with by the questions of the Chamber?

4 If not, this concludes your testimony in this court.

5 Mr. Pashchenko, you've answered the questions -- usually I say of both

6 parties, but you've -- since no questions have been put to you by the

7 Prosecution, you've answered the questions of the Defence and the

8 questions of the Bench. I'd like to thank you for coming and giving your

9 answers to these questions, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please escort

12 Mr. Pashchenko out of the courtroom.

13 We will now deal with the documents. Madam Registrar, could you

14 please guide us.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1824, map marked by witness; Exhibit

17 D1825 under seal, UNPROFOR report; Exhibit D1826, daily SITREP for period

18 12 to 18 February 1993; Exhibit D1827, report dated 17 October 1993.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Since I hear no objections, the documents are

20 admitted into evidence.

21 We have three minutes left, but I was informed -- the Chamber was

22 informed that the Defence was not able to call any further witnesses this

23 week. Is that correct, Ms. Pilipovic?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would only

25 like to say that the Defence had planned to call three witnesses, but at

Page 17367

1 the last minute the witness who was the first one to appear informed the

2 witness department on Tuesday that he had a fever and was not able to

3 come. We have attempted by contacting the witness department to have the

4 witness who was supposed to come today -- to have him appear, but there

5 was a misunderstanding because a ticket was reserved for him for Saturday.

6 So we are now without a witness for tomorrow.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber understands that under certain

8 circumstances you're running out of witnesses. Perhaps the time taken by

9 the Prosecution to cross-examine the last witness might have surprised you

10 a bit as well. It's always difficult to find a balance between not

11 wasting any time by running out of witnesses and at the same time not to

12 ask the witnesses to come at such an early stage that they have to wait

13 too long. So it is at least understandable why this situation has arisen.

14 Nevertheless, I would urge the Defence to try to take whatever

15 measures that this situation would not occur again. So this is not to

16 blame you for it but not to -- but just an invitation to pay proper

17 attention to avoiding such a situation to arise.

18 That would also mean that there's no need to sit tomorrow, unless

19 one of the parties would have any specific issue to raise.

20 Then we'll adjourn until next Monday - not in the same

21 courtroom - and at 9.00 in the morning. Yes.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

23 at 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

24 the 13th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.