Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17451

1 Tuesday, 14 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Good morning to everyone. Mr. Mundis, is the Prosecution ready to

10 continue the cross-examination of the witness?

11 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you then please escort Mr. Vorobev

13 into the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Vorobev. May I remind you that

16 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of

17 your testimony, and may I take it from you nodding that you hear me in a

18 language you understand.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, witness.

Page 17452

1 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, I'd ask that the

2 witness be shown Defence Exhibit 185 and also that the witness be provided

3 with a thin blue marker.

4 And if the usher could place that portion of the map on the ELMO

5 that shows the area marked by the witness yesterday.

6 Q. Witness, the area known as the Jewish cemetery is visible on that

7 part of the map in front of you, is it not?

8 A. That is right.

9 Q. Witness, if you could please take the thin blue marker and draw a

10 line around the entire territory of the Jewish cemetery, please.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you drew a solid black line along the

13 left-hand side, that is, on the western side of the Jewish cemetery; is

14 that correct?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. And you told --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Will the witness please speak into the

18 microphone.

19 Q. And you told us, witness, that the solid black line indicated the

20 position of the Bosnian Serb army at the time you were posted in Sarajevo;

21 is that correct?

22 A. More or less.

23 Q. You also drew on the eastern side of the Jewish cemetery a dashed

24 line, indicating the position of the forces of the Army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

Page 17453

1 A. It is.

2 Q. Along the northern side of the Jewish cemetery there is a transit

3 road; is that correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Witness, I put to you that the ABiH forces -- that the

6 confrontation line, if you will, the ABiH forces were along that transit

7 road. Isn't that right?

8 A. Not always and not everywhere.

9 Q. During the time you were in Sarajevo, from February 1994 onwards,

10 were there periodic fire fights in the Jewish cemetery?

11 A. There were exchanges.

12 Q. And in light of the indications of the parties that you've drawn

13 on that map, the Jewish cemetery in effect was no man's land; isn't that

14 right?

15 A. Yes, that is right.

16 MR. MUNDIS: One moment, please.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,

19 Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

21 Is there any need for re-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should be happy,

23 Mr. President.

24 Could we put before the witness the original of the map.

25 THE INTERPRETER: If the map can be, please, not rustled in front

Page 17454

1 of the microphone.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: That's okay, Mr. President. Thank you very

4 much for your assistance in any case. [Interpretation] With your

5 permission, Mr. President, in order to better see the map which is the

6 same but it's the original in colour. And then on the copy which has

7 certain changes.

8 Yes. Can we show the witness the original. Mr. Usher, will you

9 please take this map.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to tender the original or ...?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It's just in order to --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is merely to clarify

14 certain things. And I'd like us to focus on the area of what is called

15 Jewish cemetery, which is more clearly shown on this map, which is a

16 colour map. And then I'll ask the same question of the witness, because

17 there are different colours and it, therefore, allows us to distinguish

18 things better.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps before putting questions to the witness the

20 original should be shown to the Prosecution as well.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will ask the witness to

24 focus on this colour map and to scrutinise, to examine very carefully the

25 area which is next to OP3 -- non-Cyrillic OP3, in other words the area of

Page 17455

1 the Jewish cemetery.

2 There. Yes, here we are. No. No. Thank you. That's it. Yes,

3 the cemetery. Thank you.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

5 Q. Witness --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please place it as such that we also can

7 see the observation post on the screen, a little bit up. Yes, like that.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Very

9 good. This is perfect.

10 Q. Witness, with the usher's help, we would like to also use the

11 white-and-black map, which was used to also show the same area, but now we

12 have the problem of markers, Mr. President. But don't put this map,

13 please, on the ELMO.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter says sorry, but they cannot

15 interpret while the map is being rustled in front of microphones. We

16 simply cannot hear speakers.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, will you look at this blue line around the cemetery which

19 you put it, and does it seem correct to you in relation to the original

20 map? Can you look at both maps, compare them, and see whether you traced

21 the outlines of the cemetery correctly.

22 A. Well, obviously my eyesight is not the best because I think that I

23 did not trace accurately the western side of the cemetery.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

25 microphone.

Page 17456

1 Q. Would you then agree with me, witness -- if you'd come closer to

2 the microphone, please, for the interpreters -- would you then agree with

3 me that the outline of the cemetery should be more to the east than the

4 one -- than what you showed?

5 A. Yes, from the west to the east.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, which marker

7 should we use to indicate this correction?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Green would be a perfect colour, if we have any

9 green. Yes.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Now, witness, on the black-and-white map --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, usher.

13 Q. -- Will you please re-draw the outlines of the cemetery.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. Thank you, witness. And my last question, which

16 follows from the cross-examination: You were asked a moment ago about

17 sporadic exchanges of fire around and in the Jewish cemetery. And my

18 question is as follows: Did you ever, that is, you personally or your

19 observers, did you ever see the fire being opened from the chapel -- from

20 the synagogue or the chapel in the Jewish cemetery; yes or no?

21 A. No, personally I did not.

22 Q. And what about your observers? What about your observers?

23 A. My subordinates reported through the duty officer that there were

24 some armed men on the synagogue and that there was intermittent fire from

25 there.

Page 17457

1 Q. And when we talk about armed men, are we still talking about the

2 army called the BH army?

3 A. Since the cemetery was on their side, I assume that that was the

4 case.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. No

6 further questions, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would seek leave to ask the witness

9 a couple of additional questions in light of the corrections made to the

10 map.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

12 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

13 Q. Witness, the lines that you originally drew on the western side of

14 the Jewish cemetery position the western boundary of the cemetery and the

15 line held by the VRS as being virtually parallel; is that correct?

16 A. To all intents and purposes, yes. But you will understand that

17 the positions are never a straight line, that they always zigzag or

18 something in order to better protect the personnel, the men on the

19 positions.

20 Q. In light of the correction that you just made to D185 with the

21 green marker, would it then follow that the line held by the VRS was along

22 the line that you just marked with green?

23 A. Well, you know, it was eight years ago since I left it, so of

24 course -- perhaps I'm not a hundred per cent accurate when I draw it. I

25 assume that this map when I gave it to Ms. Pilipovic, that it would help

Page 17458

1 to discuss the subject, and now it seems that the map has become a

2 stumbling block. I thought it would help us, rather.

3 Q. Witness, again let me try to ask this as simply as I can: The

4 line on the western side of the Jewish cemetery held by the VRS was

5 approximately the boundary of the Jewish cemetery on the western side;

6 isn't that right?

7 A. It is.

8 Q. Thank you, witness.

9 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Please, witness, I'd like you to

14 clarify two or three matters for me. Yesterday in your testimony you said

15 that you had never heard - and I quote you - [In English] "I never heard

16 the sound of heavy weapon fire from the Serb side." [Interpretation] What

17 did you mean by "heavy weapon"? Would you say that mortars are heavy

18 weapons, or are they not?

19 A. Yes. From 120 millimetres up. 120-millimetre mortars and other

20 weapons of the same or larger calibres are to my mind heavy weapons.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So in this case, you can

22 identify by the sound the calibre of a mortar?

23 A. As a rule, yes. But one needs to be quite near the position of

24 the mortar because they are very loud. And when a shell flies, you can't

25 hear it practically. You only hear it when it hits an object. Shots from

Page 17459

1 tanks and guns sound louder, but it is very difficult to tell them apart.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. But to understand you

3 correctly, you're saying that you never heard such mortar shots, or are

4 you saying that you never heard shots from heavy weapons?

5 A. Well, never -- that means, when I was in Sarajevo. That is what

6 you mean, is it?

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

8 A. Yes, you could put it that way. Never.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, right. Then I'll move

10 on to another subject. You said also concerning the destruction of the

11 city that, and I'm quoting, [In English] "There were some high-rise

12 buildings that were destroyed in the early days of the conflict."

13 [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly, that would mean before you

14 arrived in Sarajevo. Is that so?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my third and last

17 clarification, please: You testified that you were present when General

18 Galic issued orders to his subordinates.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] What were these orders connected

21 to? Which subjects?

22 A. I don't remember. They were occasional. Orders concerning the

23 cooperation with me and establishment of posts.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it concerned cooperation with

25 your unit.

Page 17460

1 A. Yes. At the initial stage, immediately upon our arrival in

2 Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you

4 correctly, you were sometimes accompanied by General Soubirou, or rather,

5 you accompanied General Soubirou.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So who took care of the

8 translation? Were there interpreters that you had on your side or who

9 were connected to -- or were interpreters connected to General Galic's

10 command? Do you remember anything about this? Which language did General

11 Soubirou communicate in when speaking to General Galic?

12 A. General Soubirou had an interpreter who spoke Serbian as well.

13 General Soubirou had his own interpreters.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But you didn't have

15 interpreters from the United Nations who accompanied you. You didn't have

16 your own interpreters from the United Nations.

17 A. I had four interpreters who spoke English and two who interpreted

18 into Serbian. I had them in my battalion. They accompanied me to all

19 meetings.

20 Q. So these interpreters from the UN were present at these meetings.

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well,

25 Mr. Vorobev. The first one concerns your answers in respect of traces on

Page 17461

1 the asphalt of an impact you told us about. It was -- you told us that

2 fragments were flying in a certain direction and that the shell would have

3 come from the Muslim side, from the OP, observation post, 5 side. And you

4 told us about the impact on the asphalt and that you could see something,

5 you could draw conclusions as to the direction where that fire came from.

6 Did you observe that yourself, or was it told to you?

7 A. I saw these traces myself.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And the conclusions where the fire would have come

9 from were drawn by yourself, or were you told what that traces would allow

10 to conclude?

11 A. In my battalion, I had a head of artillery who had spent his

12 entire military service in the artillery and knew these things well. He

13 knew what kind of shell leaves what kind of a crater and what the possible

14 direction could be. He reported that to me, and I personally see a

15 crater -- or rather, it was not a crater but a deep indentation in the

16 asphalt.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you check on whether his conclusions were

18 right or not. I mean, were you able to check whether his conclusions

19 would be the correct conclusions?

20 A. When reporting to General Soubirou, I told him that we assumed

21 that the shell had been fired from the observation post number 5, but we

22 told him that it was our assumption.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Assumption. But my question was a different one. My

24 question was whether you personally, seeing the traces on the asphalt,

25 whether you are able or competent to verify whether the conclusions that

Page 17462

1 were given to you by your artillery specialist were correct or not.

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then, please, I have, on a blank

4 piece of paper sketch or draw the pattern you saw on the asphalt and tell

5 us why conclusions were correct.

6 Perhaps it could be done on the ELMO so we can follow you.

7 A. The crater had approximately this shape. If the fire originated

8 from this side here.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I -- yes. Could you please repeat what you just

10 said. If the fire comes from this side. I couldn't see on the screen

11 what you were pointing at. Yes.

12 A. If the direction of fire was this one here, then the deeper part

13 of the crater would be facing the source of fire. And I will, with your

14 permission, draw the outlines of a shell.

15 The head of the shell would make a deeper depression than the rest

16 of the shell. So the indentation in the asphalt would be deeper in the

17 area facing the source of fire, and it is produced by the head of the

18 shell rather than the tail end of the shell.

19 In addition to that, the majority of the fragments, shrapnels

20 would be in front, in the frontal side of the crater, and some of them

21 would be to the side. Fewer fragments could be found in the back of the

22 crater. "In the back" meaning the one closer to the origin of fire. And

23 this is approximately the scene that we could observe in the area where

24 our battalion was deployed.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So if I understand you well, you say that the density

Page 17463

1 of the fragment traces would be higher in the back; that means in the

2 direction of where the shell came from?

3 A. No. To the contrary of that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: To the contrary. So the density would be higher in

5 the front, so in the direction in which the shell landed and further

6 onwards.

7 A. [No audible response]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.

9 A. The law of inertia provides that the majority of fragments would

10 fly to the front.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.

12 Could perhaps that sketch be marked for identification.


14 JUDGE ORIE: Or should that be -- as a matter of fact, it should

15 not be marked for identification but it would be a Court exhibit.


17 JUDGE ORIE: Then it will be C3.

18 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I just

20 wanted to remark that the witness's response at line 13, 6 didn't appear

21 in the transcript -- page 13, line 6. I apologise.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I see.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that the witness's

24 response --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that the witness responded in the

Page 17464

1 affirmative. He said -- first his answer on page 13, line 2, it was, "No,

2 to the contrary of that." I said, "To the contrary. So the density would

3 be higher in the front, so in the direction in which the shell landed and

4 further onwards." And I think then the witness confirmed that

5 interpretation of his answer.

6 Yes. Then another question for you, Mr. Vorobev --

7 Could perhaps the witness be shown again the large map. No, not

8 necessarily -- it doesn't make any difference whether it's the original or

9 the black-and-white copy. Could perhaps a part be shown -- oh, yes, it's

10 in green. Could it be a bit wider if possible so that we have the area of

11 responsibility. Even a bit more. Yes.

12 Witness, Mr. Vorobev, when you were talking about the area of

13 responsibility, I see that what appears in the original to be a green line

14 which appears on the black-and-white copy, a rather dark line, in the

15 north it's an uninterrupted line and in the south it's an interrupted

16 line. Could you tell us what exactly does that difference stand for. So

17 why in the north it is an uninterrupted line and why in the south it's an

18 interrupted line. What does it indicate?

19 A. It simply means that there were two additional posts in the area

20 of responsibility of the battalion that were not shown on this map, and

21 these roads here, we used them to go to these posts. They controlled the

22 positions outside of the exclusion zone.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you. I'm talking about the green lines.

24 Are these roads or -- it seems -- what exactly do the green lines stand

25 for, whether uninterrupted or interrupted?

Page 17465

1 A. It indicates the area of responsibility, the boundaries of the

2 area of responsibility of the battalion.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And why in the south it is interrupted and why

4 in the north it is uninterrupted?

5 A. For example, in this area here we used this road in order to

6 patrol, so that in order to show that the patrol went outside of the area

7 of responsibility using this road, this is why we showed it in this way.

8 In addition to that, there were several posts of the battalion which

9 controlled the positions of artillery and anti-air defence of the

10 Republika Srpska army, which was outside of the area of responsibility of

11 our battalion. Some of the roads which are shown in these interrupted

12 lines to the south of the area of responsibility of our battalion were

13 used in order to reach those posts.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. And you pointed at where a

15 red line crosses the green interrupted line. But if I go through the

16 interruption of that line, to the right of what you just indicated, I do

17 not see any road or -- I'm just trying to understand what that

18 interruption you're just pointing at, what that means.

19 A. It basically doesn't mean anything special. There is no specific

20 indication for the area of responsibility. My head of staff simply chose

21 to indicate it in this manner.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My next question to you would be the following:

23 Your answer to one of the questions of the counsel for the Prosecution

24 when he asked you whether in effect the Jewish cemetery was no man's land,

25 you responded in the affirmative. When a question was put to you about

Page 17466

1 the chapel and firing from the chapel, you said that your observers or

2 you - I'm not quite sure about that - assumed that the firing was from BiH

3 military men since the cemetery was on their side.

4 A. Yes, I understand.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the one hand side you tell us that the

6 Jewish cemetery was no man's land, and on the other hand you say that the

7 cemetery was on their side. Had this difference in answer to do anything

8 with your position being, as far as I understand, in the rear of the

9 Bosnian Serb line? Could you explain the difference.

10 A. First of all, I didn't say that the cemetery belonged or was

11 controlled by the Bosnians. I said that the territory of the cemetery was

12 neutral, or rather, a no man's land.


14 A. The synagogue was in the immediate vicinity of the positions of

15 the Bosnian army. And when I say "immediate vicinity," I mean 10 metres,

16 within 10 metres. Since it was in the territory of the cemetery, they

17 could have used it to open fire. When I -- to the question whether I saw

18 armed men in the synagogue, I replied in the negative. I didn't see them.

19 However, my subordinates which manned the observation post number 3

20 reported to me seeing armed men at the synagogue and reported also that

21 there was intermittent fire opened from there. This is my final answer.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear to me. Did you ever receive any

23 information about the involvement of foreign elements in the military

24 forces around the Jewish cemetery? And with "foreign elements" I mean

25 foreigners, so not citizens of the former Yugoslavia, participating in the

Page 17467

1 units around the Jewish cemetery.

2 A. I have no such information.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We heard testimony both from non-former Yugoslavians,

4 as from locals that were participating in these units about foreigners,

5 and, as it was once called, weekenders, those who would come over the

6 weekend to participate in units. You never heard about that, or do you

7 have no personal knowledge?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

10 When you say that the BiH -- the presidency forces, that their

11 positions were quite close to the chapel - you said 10 metres - have you

12 any information as to if they would have been in the chapel how they would

13 have entered the chapel -- through the door, through the windows, through

14 the roof?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever hear about a tunnel connecting the

17 presidency forces with the chapel?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers, Mr. Vorobev.

20 Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would seek leave to

22 ask the witness a couple of additional questions concerning an answer he

23 gave in response to a question from the Bench.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it is in relation to a question from the

25 Bench, please proceed.

Page 17468

1 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

2 Q. Witness, you -- in response to a question from the Judge

3 concerning the green lines indicated on the map before you, you told us

4 "it simply means that there were two additional posts in the area of

5 responsibility of the battalion that were not shown on this map and these

6 roads here, we used them to go to these posts. They controlled the

7 positions outside of the exclusion zone."

8 With respect to the exclusion zone, how many additional posts did

9 your battalion have that aren't indicated on this map?

10 A. There are two posts that are not indicated on this map.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. I

12 object. I don't think that your Trial Chamber put any questions about the

13 exclusion zone as such. There were questions about firing of heavy

14 weapons, but there weren't any questions about the exclusion zone, so I

15 don't think that this question arises from the questions put by your Trial

16 Chamber. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It arises from one of the answers the witness gave.

18 And I asked him about the meaning of the interrupted and non-interrupted

19 green lines, and Mr. Mundis is asking for a clarification of part of the

20 answer.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Witness, what was the role or responsibilities of your battalion

24 with respect to monitoring the exclusion zones?

25 A. To ensure that the positions where the weaponry was held outside

Page 17469

1 of the exclusion zone, within 20 kilometres of Sarajevo, remained the

2 same. And should the positions be changed, we had to report to the

3 commander of the sector in order for the measures to be taken concerning

4 the removal of weaponry and in order for the weaponry to be placed in the

5 established positions.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, when I allowed you to proceed, it was

8 about the posts not indicated on the map you asked the witness about.

9 Then the objection was that the exclusion zone as such was not -- had not

10 been an issue, apart from just a reference -- just a short reference to it

11 in relation to non-marked observation post. But I think that the Defence

12 is right, that the exclusion zone as such and the implementation of that

13 as such was not part of my questions. Neither was it a substantive part

14 of the answer of the witness.

15 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,

16 Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

18 Mr. Vorobev, this then concludes your testimony in this court.

19 I'd like to thank you for coming a far distance to The Hague and to answer

20 all questions, both of the parties and of the Bench, and I hope that you

21 have a safe trip home again.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Vorobev out of

24 the courtroom.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 17470

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know if

2 the next witness has already arrived, but you remember that yesterday the

3 Prosecution told us that they would have one hour of cross-examinations.

4 I hope the witness is here. We were -- we had a different schedule

5 for -- a different time schedule. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We started at 9.00, not more than one hour. We are

7 now three minutes to 10.00. But I do agree with you, that it went all a

8 bit more quickly, which is, of course, highly appreciated by the Chamber,

9 that we are using our time as efficiently as possible.

10 The witness is there. But let me just confirm.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think the next witness is the only one on -- in

13 whose respect we already gave a firm decision as to the protective

14 measures to be granted, and that was facial distortion and pseudonym.

15 What would be the pseudonym?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] DP35.

17 JUDGE ORIE: DP35. Then I'd just like to seek confirmation that

18 the protective measures are in effect. They are not yet.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you put in place whatever is

21 needed for facial distortion.

22 Yes. In the meantime, we could deal with the exhibits, since the

23 public character is not affected by speaking about it. Madam Usher, could

24 you -- Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through the documents.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D185, map marked by witness; Exhibit C3,

Page 17471

1 diagram drawn by witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no objection to

4 those exhibits but would respectfully request that the colour map also be

5 admitted into evidence in light of the fact that the witness referred to

6 it and given that there are certain markings which are not necessarily

7 visible or as visible on the black and white.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would then suggest the following, if that

9 would be agreeable to the Defence: That that portion of the map on which

10 the Jewish cemetery appears, that that would be a kind of a subexhibit,

11 because I think it's mainly the colour, that part of the map, that is of

12 relevance for the issue. Is that correct?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. But the Prosecution would

14 respectfully request we go a bit further to include the areas covered by

15 the Russian Battalion, which would be the -- perhaps a couple of

16 centre-pieces of the map.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it then be agreeable that it would

18 be -- I mean, if we put such a large map on a -- if we try to copy it once

19 in one stroke, then that is rather costly. So therefore, would it be

20 possible to have colour copies of the relevant parts put together? And if

21 then, perhaps the Defence could show it first to the Prosecution, that the

22 puzzle is -- that every piece of the jigsaw puzzle is in the right place,

23 so that it could then be admitted as a -- yes.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what we suggest

25 is to do a colour patchwork, to have a more admissible form, if I may say

Page 17472

1 so, and to concentrate -- to take the more important parts of your map and

2 to provide them to your Trial Chamber and to the Prosecution. But it

3 seems impossible to us to copy everything for technical reasons.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But parts could be copied and then put

5 together.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly. Exactly.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. South south, east east, and west west. That

8 would be a good solution.

9 Then Mr. Usher, the -- first I have to give a decision on the

10 admission into evidence. So D185 and C3 are admitted into evidence. And

11 we -- Madam Registrar.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: So in order to avoid whatever confusion, D185 is the

14 black-and-white copy of the map as a whole. The Defence is going to

15 prepare a patchwork coloured copy of the relevant parts, and we'll see

16 that and then admit it into evidence once the Prosecution has seen it.

17 And C3, the diagram made by the witness, is also admitted into evidence.

18 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the next witness, DP35

19 into the courtroom.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.


22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, while

23 waiting for the witness, could the Registrar please give me the next

24 number so that I can put it in.


Page 17473

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, I will be taking this

4 witness in cross-examination. Thank you.


6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP35, can you hear me in a language you

8 understand?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP35, we are calling you this way because

11 protective measures have been granted in respect of you. That means that

12 your face will not be seen by the outside world, and we'll not use your

13 own name but we'll call you Mr. DP35.

14 Mr. DP35, before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of

15 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

16 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And

17 the text will be handed out to you now by the usher. May I invite you to

18 make that solemn declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. DP35. Please be seated.

24 I think the curtains can be raised again.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphones for the witness please be

Page 17474

1 adjusted, brought closer to the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please put the microphones a bit

3 closer to the witness.

4 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP35, good morning.

8 A. Good morning to you.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I begin to

10 examine Witness DP35, I'd like to produce a document to show it to the

11 witness so that he can tell us if the information on the sheet of paper is

12 accurate.

13 Your Honour, I forgot to put the father's name on this piece of

14 paper. It is my mistake. But if you wish me to, I will ask the witness

15 what is his father's name or alternatively I can ask him to write it down.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, I can do that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness did write it down already. Could

18 it -- Mr. Usher, could you please give the copy to the ...

19 Could it be shown to the Prosecution and to the Defence as well.

20 May I take it, Mr. DP35, that the name you added on this piece of

21 paper is the name of your father?

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17475

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 For the sake of the record, I indicate that the witness added

4 a -- with a green pen a name just where his own name is written down and

5 not where it says "father" but that he now testified that this is the name

6 of his father.

7 Could you please verify the other parts of the document,

8 Ms. Pilipovic, his name and date of birth.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. DP35, is the information on the sheet of paper shown to you

11 accurate; yes or no?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Mr. DP35, can you tell us in so many words what education do you

14 have?

15 A. I completed the military academy, the AAD, and after that I

16 attended a course for assistant commander for morale and political

17 training and another course to become a chief of AAD, of the anti-aircraft

18 defence.

19 Q. Mr. DP35, can you confirm for us that between 1992 and 1994 you

20 were in the territory of the city of Sarajevo?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Were you then in army service?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. Was that with the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 17476

1 Q. Can you tell us when did you begin to serve with the Sarajevo

2 Romanija Corps and what post did you hold there?

3 A. From the 8th of July, 1992 -- no, sorry, 4th of July, 1992 to the

4 8th of February, 1993 I was the AAD regiment commander. And from the 8th

5 of February, 1993 onward, chief of AAD in the corps command.

6 Q. When you tell us that from the 8th of February, 1993 you were

7 appointed the AAD chief in the corps command, can you tell us what duties

8 does this office involve in a corps?

9 A. The chief duties are laid down in the instructions which we used

10 of the former Yugoslav army and which were then developed further in line

11 with the conditions in wartime. And other duties would be the monitoring

12 of the situation in AAD units of the corps, participation in the

13 preparation of combat documents in the corps command to be used by AAD

14 units, depending on individual aspects of the anti-aircraft defence,

15 organisation and combat training of AAD troops, and air surveyance and

16 reporting -- I could have also mentioned this in the beginning, because it

17 is closely related to the anti-aircraft defence. In other words, the

18 organisation of, training under the existing conditions in line with the

19 then-rules, regulations, and instructions. Control, direct control of how

20 the tasks are performed by the AAD units, extension of assistance on the

21 ground, and requests are submitted to the corps command and the main staff

22 to solve matters which could not be solved by units themselves or the

23 corps was unable to solve. So these would be my chief duties.

24 Q. Mr. DP35, thank you. Before you listed to us the duties of the

25 chief of AAD staff, you told us that you acted in line with the

Page 17477

1 instructions and directives of the former JNA. Did I understand you

2 correctly?

3 A. Yes, you did.

4 Q. Does this mean that you followed the rules of the former JNA?

5 A. Yes, we did. And I'm quite confident that other armed forces in

6 the area did the same, because at that time they were -- it was impossible

7 to draw up new rules and regulations, and these rules and regulations that

8 existed were drawn up based on some conditions, terms, regulations outside

9 the former Yugoslavia or outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, those developed by

10 other countries.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us -- can you tell us if there is any

12 difference between peacetime and wartime duties of AAD chiefs of staff.

13 A. No. The duties are identical. In peacetime, one carries out

14 preparations within the AAD in case of need, because neither the army nor

15 such units should exist at all if they prepared only for wartime.

16 Q. Mr. DP35, you told us that you were assigned to the post of the

17 chief of staff of AAD from the post of regiment commander. Can you tell

18 us, under whom was this regiment?

19 A. It was under the corps command directly.

20 Q. Did you succeed somebody?

21 A. You mean the head of the AAD?

22 Q. Anti-aircraft defence.

23 A. No, because it was vacant. And whilst I was a regiment commander,

24 I discharged this duty in peril because I would go when and necessary to

25 the corps command to do whatever was necessary to do in this relation.

Page 17478

1 Q. Can you tell us, who was the corps commander at the time when you

2 were the chief of the AAD?

3 A. It was General Galic [Realtime transcript read in error

4 "General Mladic"].

5 Q. As the AAD chief, did you become familiar with the area of

6 responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

7 A. Yes. That was my duty.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there is a

9 mistake in the transcript. I shall repeat my question, but my question

10 was: Who was the corps commander at the time when you received the duty

11 of the AAD commander and you told me.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Galic, but the transcript

13 says a different thing.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. Before we interrupted your answer, will you please repeat to us if

16 you became familiar with the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo

17 Romanija Corps.

18 A. Yes.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and counsel please break

20 between question and answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you not to start responding to a

22 question when the letters on the screen are still moving, because the

23 interpreters need some time to translate the words of Ms. Pilipovic, the

24 new words. And this has already caused, I'm afraid, Ms. Pilipovic, that

25 the words of the witness, at least, as I understood them, that when you

Page 17479

1 repeated the question, that he then said "General Galic" and his words do

2 not appear in the transcript. But it's not in dispute that the answer was

3 "General Galic."

4 Please proceed.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Your Honour, before I resume my examination, I wanted to show the map C2

7 to the witness, since the witness has told us that he had become familiar

8 with the area of responsibility of the corps. But we can show the map

9 after the break. And I will move on with my questions without the map and

10 then after the break we can put the map.

11 Q. Mr. DP35, can you tell us about the strength of the AAD and what

12 about its equipment, how well was it equipped? In other words, how strong

13 was your --

14 A. We had 50 to 80 per cent of the materiel normally required, and

15 the same would hold true of men. Specifically in the unit, in the

16 regiment, it varied between 50 to 60 per cent of the full strength. And

17 in AAD units, in brigades, that is, that was the same; whereas, the

18 materiel standards varied, depending on the possibilities, supplies, and

19 so on and so forth.

20 If you want me to, I can add to this.

21 Q. Mr. DP35, wait. I'd like to ask you if you can tell us what about

22 the level of training of the men.

23 A. The level of the training under the conditions was quite

24 satisfactory in terms of the tasks assigned to them, so that we can use a

25 global mark and say that they were well trained.

Page 17480

1 Q. Can you tell us, what was the main task of AAD units?

2 A. The main task of the anti-aircraft defence units was to monitor

3 the situation in the air space and general movement of a possible means of

4 attack from possible air spaces, up to combat tasks. Secondly, support

5 and defence of areas and zones where AAD units were deployed within the

6 combat assignment of the corps as such. In other words, defence and

7 fighting against fire points threatening our positions from the ground

8 too, from land.

9 Q. Can you tell us if in the course of your service you received some

10 special assignments, you personally and your units.

11 A. Well, the assignments were not special. They were an integral

12 part of the overall tasks of the corps command and had to do with

13 assignments and regular duties of AAD units. And if there was -- if there

14 was any emphasis laid on something special, it was for a unit to move, to

15 relocate for technical reasons from one position to another, but this was

16 mostly within the confines of areas and zones indicated in the initial

17 combat assignment.

18 Q. Mr. DP35, can you tell us, where were the anti-aircraft defence

19 units deployed in the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija

20 Corps?

21 A. Yes. The units of the AAD regiment were deployed in the area of

22 Lukavica, Donji Kotorac.

23 MR. IERACE: I object to the question in its present form. It

24 should indicate a time frame or a particular point in time. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- it's my understanding that since the

Page 17481

1 witness was asked about the time periods when he had responsibility in

2 different functions, that he's mainly answering questions in view of his

3 last position, that is, commanding the AAD in the corps.

4 Is that --

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] From the 8th of February, 1993.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think the answers of the witness should

7 be understood in this way, unless there's any additional time aspect which

8 we are overlooking, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my point is that that covers, I think,

10 some 18 months. One assumes, given the nature of this weaponry, in

11 particular its mobility --


13 MR. IERACE: -- That it cannot be assumed, I should say, that the

14 positions remain throughout. That should be clarified first.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps in one question -- perhaps we could ask

16 the witness that if anything changed irrespective of any question put to

17 you. So if anything changed after the 8th of February, 1993. So if your

18 answer would not cover the whole period after the 8th of February, 1993,

19 would you please indicate so.

20 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see you're nodding. But nodding does not

22 appear in the transcript of this hearing. So I do understand that you

23 agree that if on any question there's a need to make a distinction between

24 a certain period after the 8th of February, you'll tell us. Yes?

25 Mr. DP35, you understand what I mean?

Page 17482

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps having interrupted your line of

3 questions anyhow, we could have a break now.

4 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into

8 the courtroom. And once he has taken his place, then raise the curtains

9 again.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst the witness is being brought

11 in, I note that a map has been placed in the vicinity of the witness box.

12 Might I have the exhibit number of that map so that we can locate our

13 copy.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is C2.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. DP35, before the break, you were asked about the positions

18 where the AAD units were deployed within the area of responsibility of the

19 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. If you know the position of these units in the

20 time period from September 1992 to August 1994, to show them to us.

21 A. The positions of AAD units during that period of time did not

22 change significantly. That means that the positions remained unchanged

23 and only some weapons could have been moved temporarily and then returned

24 back to their initial position. The positions of the units of the

25 regiment of AAD was as follows: From Lapisnica to Pale to Trebevic, there

Page 17483

1 was one battery with 20-millimetre weapons. Vrace, stadium Slavija at

2 Lukavica --

3 Q. Mr. DP35, before you proceed to describing the positions to us --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order not to

5 waste time, I would like the witness to point this out to us on the map,

6 if possible, to indicate these positions of the units of the AAD regiment.

7 Q. Mr. DP35, to your right you can see a map -- I'm sorry, to your

8 left. If you can, please remain seated so that all of us can see the map.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into

10 the microphone.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you assist the witness such that his

12 words can be heard by the interpreters.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. DP35, the mike is to your right, so could you please try to

15 speak into it. And also, could you indicate east and west to us so that

16 that can be recorded in the transcript.

17 A. The battery, as I've said --

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it's not possible for me to follow

21 this evidence. In particular, the indications by the witness on the map.

22 I'm not seeing it on the monitor, and given the angle of the map and the

23 distance and the position of the witness in relation to the map --


25 MR. IERACE: -- I'm unable to follow it visually directly.

Page 17484

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that the Chamber will have similar

2 difficulties, although the witness is not obstructing our view. It's at

3 such a distance.

4 Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you. In how much detail do you want

5 these positions? Are we talking about streets or about positions in

6 general, that area, or ...?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, we're not interested in the

8 streets, just the positions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So -- yes, that's right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is it then a practical way to do it -- I mean, we

12 have -- we have other maps that can be put on the ELMO and that can be

13 marked that we can see, so it's, of course, the level of precision you

14 need and also the -- I don't know what areas the witness will bring us in,

15 whether it's on other maps as well. But this is a rather impractical way

16 of dealing with the matter.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Defence will put

21 questions to the witness, and if we still have some time remaining at the

22 end, then the witness can indicate then on the map the positions of AAD

23 units.


25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we still have some time

Page 17485

1 remaining at the end of the testimony.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Another -- so I think we have a couple of

3 solutions to the problem: The first would be to use the same map but a

4 copy of the map on the ELMO so that the witness points at that portion of

5 the map on the ELMO, although the whole map is still there. And the other

6 way would be to use a different -- a less-detailed map and ask the witness

7 to mark on that map. But of course, I do not know where the witness will

8 bring us. But please proceed. And perhaps during the next break we could

9 solve the problem.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. DP35, you started explaining to us where the positions of AAD

15 units were from September 1992 to September 1994. So could you return to

16 that question without indicating the location on the map.

17 A. I've already told you that the 20-millimetre battery was to the

18 north-east from Lukavica command post. In the north-easterly direction,

19 across Trebevic, Pale, and Lapisnica. 40-millimetre battery was in Vrace,

20 stadium Slavija in the northern part of Lukavica towards Sarajevo.

21 30-millimetre battery was in Gornji Kotorac, Ilinjaca, towards the command

22 post. 20-millimetre battery and 30-millimetre battery were in the

23 Kaponiri airport. To the south, somewhat south-west of the command post

24 in Lukavica. And finally, 30-millimetre battery to the south and somewhat

25 south-east of Klanac. These were batteries which held firing position

Page 17486

1 within the regiment.

2 Brigade units were deployed in accordance with their areas of

3 responsibility, which went from Lukavica through Mrkovici, Vogosca,

4 Rajlovac, Ilidza, a part of Hadzici, Blazuj, Rakovica, and in Ilijas area,

5 Cekrcici, Sevrle, Mrakovo. In the rear part some weapons were taken to

6 Nisic Plateau where we had some units with AAD weapons.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP35, if I understood you well, you spoke to us

8 about the AAD units within the corps area and about the brigade units.

9 Can you tell us whether all of these units were directly subordinated to

10 you.

11 A. The units were directly subordinated to me. The decision of the

12 corps command was adopted in order for the regiment units to be used;

13 whereas, the AAD units within the brigade were issued decisions by their

14 respective commanders. Naturally I did have some influence regarding

15 this, because I monitored the situation and I was familiar with it.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP35, can you tell us, what were the tasks of the

17 units which were directly subordinated to you, in view of your answer,

18 from the 6th of September, 1992 up until the 10th of August, 1994?

19 A. As I have told you in one of my previous answers, the main tasks

20 were to monitor the situation in the air and to prepare for anti-air

21 defence or anti-air combat. But based on the tasks that units had

22 pursuant to instructions, the units which were in direct contact with the

23 corps command also had tasks that had to do with direct support to the

24 units in whose area they were in order to provide air defence from the

25 ground and fire at various spots in the air that were deemed to be a

Page 17487

1 threat.

2 Q. Mr. DP35, before we turn to targets and -- did I understand you

3 well that you received your tasks from the command of Sarajevo Romanija

4 Corps?

5 A. I received from the corps commander, but while -- I also

6 participated in the preparation of the orders and instructions. I gave

7 proposals, and the commander would decide on each of my proposals. He

8 would either adopt it or modify it. That's an answer to the first part of

9 your question.

10 And now the second part of your question had to do with targets.

11 Q. Mr. DP35, I want to clarify something regarding your previous

12 answer. When you said that you received your orders from the Sarajevo

13 Romanija Corps command, from the commander, can you also tell us how did

14 you receive them. Was it directly from the commander of the Sarajevo

15 Romanija Corps or was it from the chief of staff of that corps?

16 A. I was in direct contact with the chief of staff, but I could also

17 receive some of my tasks directly from the commander, because we worked as

18 a team within our staff, and the commander whenever possible followed the

19 preparation of every combat document.

20 Q. When you say "the preparation of a combat document," can you tell

21 us whether you received your orders in written or in verbal form before

22 the document was prepared.

23 A. Based on the written document of the superior command, the

24 commander or chief of staff would inform about the combat situation and

25 about the task facing us. So basically he would read it out. And based

Page 17488

1 on that all of us within our all-respective fields would assess the

2 situation and give proposals for the final decision, order, and combat

3 order.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether you as chief of AAD were always in the

5 command or were you executing tasks in the field?

6 A. Some of my tasks had to be discharged within the command, but the

7 majority of my tasks had to be discharged in the field due to the fact

8 that the units were quite dispersed within the area of responsibility of

9 the corps command.

10 Q. Can you tell us whether the AAD units of the Sarajevo Romanija

11 Corps were active within the time period between September 1992-August

12 1994, and if so, in what way?

13 A. The units were active in this period of time. I would like to

14 point out that they were active in defending the positions because they

15 were deployed within their respective brigades. That means that they

16 opened fire against targets which threatened our combat positions using

17 all weapons available to them.

18 Q. When you say "using all weapons available to them," can you tell

19 us what weapons were at the disposal of the AAD units and how were these

20 weapons used.

21 A. When I talked about the deployment of batteries - and I mentioned

22 their calibres - I told you that the first weapon at their use was a

23 20-millimetre three-barreled gun, and we used targets which were 1500

24 metres away. These were visible targets. We didn't use all three barrels

25 due to our technical capabilities. We only used the middle barrel and

Page 17489

1 would use short bursts of fire or individual shots.

2 The second weapon was a 30-millimetre gun with the range of 2.000

3 metres. We used two barrels also to fire against direct targets. A

4 40-millimetre one-barrel gun was used also against firing targets, up till

5 3.000 metres. There could also be light armoured vehicles which normally

6 have a thinner metal as their armour.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP35, based on your answers so far, it seems that

8 the AAD units in the relevant period of time were not used for anti-air

9 defence.

10 A. Yes, that's correct, because there were no air raids at the time.

11 We also had a battery called Aero 2M [phoen], which could reach targets up

12 until 2.000 metres in the air. However, it was not used during that

13 period of time because there were no air raids then.

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP35, I would like to go back now to the issue of

15 targets. You spoke about your targets. Can you tell us, did you have

16 targets? And if so, what constituted a target for you?

17 A. For us targets were fire points, meaning positions of different

18 kinds of weaponry, excluding armoured ones. And I'm referring to the

19 enemy weapons here, the ones that we could damage or destroy within the

20 ranges that I've already described to you. So this mostly had to do with

21 fire points, with combat or non-combat vehicles that could be discerned in

22 movement and for which we could assume that they either transported deadly

23 weapons or explosive material.

24 Q. Mr. DP35, did you as chief of AAD have some kind of a map? How

25 did you register, if at all, these targets or fire points, as you call

Page 17490












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 17490 to 17496.













Page 17497

1 them?

2 A. No. We didn't use the map for targets and fire points except in

3 the zone of separation that you can see on this map, providing that we

4 knew the exact positions. However, those positions which were of any use

5 to us were quite distant, and we mostly targeted those targets which when

6 active came close to the separation line. So the ones that approached our

7 range.

8 Q. Mr. DP35 --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the sake of the transcript, the

12 witness was pointing at the map C2, and he was pointing to the western

13 part of that map where the confrontation lines goes first north and then

14 north-east, that area.

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. DP35, during the time we are interested in, did you personally

18 keep records of the targets in the course of your unit's activity? And if

19 you did, in which area?

20 A. Well, throughout the entire area mostly, but mostly where the

21 regiment was. This is the south-eastern part. A minute ago I indicated

22 the entire zone, and the south-eastern part where the majority of the

23 targets were. These targets weren't recorded in any special manner but

24 through additional documents, such as notebooks, they were recorded and

25 registered. And the fact that the targets were there -- or rather, firing

Page 17498

1 points, was something that was recorded.

2 Q. Mr. DP35, when you say that you kept these notebooks, these

3 working notebooks, did you personally have such a notebook for an area

4 where you had marked the targets?

5 A. No. Notes were made in the notebooks with other information and

6 details, and each chief had a plan for the use of his units. To be more

7 specific, in addition -- I had a map like this map, and it was entitled

8 "An anti-aircraft defence plan, corps command." And the boundaries had

9 been -- the boundaries of the corps and the brigades had been marked on

10 the map, and the position of the anti-aircraft units. So as chief, I

11 wasn't that much interested in the position, in the deployment. I was

12 less interested in the position of the enemy's land forces. But if I did

13 have information about air targets, about the directions of advance, then

14 something would be marked on the map in an empty part with a plan of

15 possible targets and where aircraft might come from.

16 In the cases when we had combat with firing points and points on

17 land, we didn't make such markings.

18 Q. So I have understood you to say that the firing points on the

19 land, on the ground, were not marked on the map.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you personally have some sort of an aide memoire, something

22 that would help you remember these things? Did you mark the targets in

23 the area from which enemy forces were active?

24 A. Not for targets on the ground, no.

25 Q. Mr. DP35, apart from the duties of an AAD chief, which was the

Page 17499

1 main task you had in the corps, did you have to perform any other duties?

2 Did you have another post from September 1992 up until August 1994?

3 A. Yes. In addition to performing the duties of the AAD chief, the

4 staff organs also carried out other tasks in the team, in the leading

5 team, in the leadership team of the command, and this had to do with

6 solving certain issues in the area of responsibility of the corps,

7 especially when the commander was absent from the command post or the

8 chief of staff. And this leadership team worked in the operation centre

9 where operations were carried out. I spent more time there than in my

10 office.

11 Q. When you tell us that you would spend more time in the operations

12 centre, can you tell us whether you had a certain task or certain duties

13 and can you tell us where this operations centre was located.

14 A. The operations centre was part of the command. It was within the

15 command. It was in the vicinity of the other premises, and the command

16 consisted of ground floor and the one floor. It was directly linked to

17 the most important offices. It was linked via telephone, and we carried

18 out tasks in that operations hall in which we had working maps and other

19 documents, and that is where we would receive reports and where we would

20 inform the commander if he was in the command or somewhere out in the

21 field, regardless of where he was.

22 Q. Mr. DP35, I don't think you have fully answered my question. You

23 told us that you worked in the operations centre. My question was whether

24 you had a certain position there or whether the people who worked in such

25 a centre had a certain position, certain titles, in order to be more

Page 17500

1 specific.

2 A. Yes. There was an officer of the leading team. This was one of

3 the commander's assistants. They would change -- these assistants would

4 change. And the chiefs of service branches and officers from the command

5 organs were members of the leadership team and of the operations -- an

6 operations duty officer. So mostly it was the role of the operations duty

7 officer.

8 Q. Thank you. So as far as I can understand you, you had -- you

9 played the role of the operations duty officer.

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Can you tell us, who designates the operations duty officer?

12 A. The chief of staff.

13 Q. Given that you had such a role, can you tell us what the tasks of

14 the operations duty officer were.

15 A. Well, the tasks of the operations duty officer consisted of

16 monitoring the situation in the corps' zone of responsibility. That means

17 in the command and in all units.

18 Secondly, the daily -- the regular daily reports, which would

19 arrive in written form, in encoded form, they would receive these regular

20 reports and if necessary, irregular reports, extraordinary reports, which

21 would be communicated via telephone in encoded form depending on combat

22 situation and the particular case.

23 Q. Thank you. Can you just confirm whether I have understood you

24 correctly. You spent quite a lot of time in that operations centre. From

25 the time when you arrived in the corps, February 1993, up until August

Page 17501

1 1994, how much time did you spend in the operation centre? How frequently

2 were you there?

3 A. I would be there for at least an hour every day. It depended on

4 the task and on whether this was necessary. When I was on duty, it would

5 be up to 20 hours. When there was intense combat activity, I, as part of

6 the leadership team, would be there, and how long I would be there

7 depended on how long the combat activity lasted. It could be something

8 between two and twenty-four hours.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP35, while you were performing these duties,

10 while you held this position, did you receive written or verbal protest

11 from UNPROFOR or from the BH army? And if so, who forwarded them to you

12 and how?

13 A. We did receive protests in the command from -- not directly from

14 the BH army. They didn't arrive in the operations centre directly from

15 the BH army. They were sent through the liaison officer, the liaison

16 officer for UNPROFOR. We were made aware of each protest because it was

17 our duty to report to the commander about this, to inform the commander

18 about this, and we would follow how this protest was developing on the

19 basis of the commander's decision and the task that he assigned. The task

20 would be to check to see whether such an incident had occurred, the

21 incident with regard to which a protest had been lodged.

22 Q. Mr. DP35, could you please be more specific and tell us when you

23 would receive such protests, whether it was from UNPROFOR or from the BH

24 army, through the liaison officer, can you tell us something about the

25 contents of these protests. Do you remember anything about this?

Page 17502

1 A. I can remember some of the protests. I can't remember all of

2 them, of course. But in each protest which was lodged and in which

3 victims were mentioned, this would be checked in the field. We tried to

4 determine whether it was possible for one of our units to open fire in the

5 field. I could provide you with some examples too.

6 Q. Just a minute. Mr. DP35, you say that the protests mentioned

7 casualties. Can you tell us whether the names of the casualties were

8 mentioned in those protests, the location under which circumstances -- did

9 these protests contain detailed information?

10 A. No. Just the area was mentioned.

11 Q. So when you would receive such a protest in which the area was

12 mentioned, if I have understood you correctly you would check to see

13 whether the units in that area had been active. Have I understood you

14 correctly?

15 A. Yes, you have. I would suggest this to the commander. A team

16 would be formed if necessary in order to check this.

17 Q. Mr. DP35, you have told us that you can remember some examples.

18 Can you tell us whether you personally participated or acted on a protest.

19 A. Yes. As operations duty officer, at the beginning of February

20 1994 I received via the media, via the radio, information according to

21 which our units had been active and their action had resulted in

22 casualties in the Dobrinja region. A team was formed. The chief of staff

23 formed a team. And the team tried to establish whether there had been

24 such action. This wasn't confirmed. And the liaison officer for UNPROFOR

25 never provided an official protest, either written or some other form, but

Page 17503

1 we were only informed about this via the media.

2 Q. Mr. DP35, you have told us about checking the information obtained

3 through the media. After such information had been checked, as you say,

4 did you make a written record of this check-up?

5 A. Yes. And in the daily operations report, this would be forwarded

6 to the main staff of the army. They would be provided with a report. The

7 chief of staff or commander would be provided with this report. And such

8 report would be sent to the main staff with this person's signature and

9 authorisation.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP35, while you were an operations duty officer,

11 did you ever receive a protest from UNPROFOR and did you check such

12 protests?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. With UNPROFOR members?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So when you say "yes," does that mean that you personally went to

17 check up on this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us when this occurred and do you remember which area

20 was concerned?

21 A. Well, I'll tell you. I can't give you the precise date, but

22 towards the end of January 1994 -- and yet again this information came

23 through the media first of all. It stated that our units in Ilinjaca and

24 Gornji Kotorac had fired on a tower for guiding aircraft at the Butmir

25 airport. The liaison officer informed the commander about this. He

Page 17504

1 informed General Galic about the event. Since this concerned a position

2 where one of my batteries were located and UNPROFOR members appeared with

3 Captain Leon Kolp [phoen] as their head - I think that was his name - I

4 was given the task by the commander to visit that position as the chief

5 and to establish which positions could have been used to fire at the tower

6 at the airport. We did this for two days, and we established that it was

7 not possible to hit the tower with the weapons that we had at our

8 disposal. At the same time on the Igman side - that's the Muslim

9 side - there was another team working there, and the leader of the team,

10 Captain Leon, told us that our situation was quite clear, and he said that

11 the airport tower had been hit from above Hrasnica, from part of Igman. I

12 don't know how it was hit. Not much damage was caused, but it wasn't

13 possible to cause this damage with my artillery.

14 When we returned from the field, I informed the commander -- or

15 rather, the commander was absent at the time, but we informed the liaison

16 officer about the details, because reports would be forwarded through him.

17 And in my presence, Captain Leon thanked us and he said that he wanted to

18 thank General Galic and myself, as someone who had participated in this

19 control, he wanted to thank us for behaving professionally and in a very

20 correct manner.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP35. I understand the fact that you needed to be

22 a little more expansive in your response, but what I am interested in is

23 whether there was some sort of written record which was made when you and

24 UNPROFOR members went to the site of these incidents.

25 A. I didn't make any kind of record. Members of UNPROFOR made

Page 17505

1 records, and the liaison officer made records, but I had no access to it

2 after that.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP35, while you were chief of the AAD - and you

4 told us that you were also the operation duty officer - did you personally

5 attend meetings of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps command?

6 A. Yes. On a daily basis when I was in the corps command if I wasn't

7 in the field.

8 Q. Can you tell us who attended those meetings and whether General

9 Galic was also present at those meetings.

10 A. Yes. General Galic would chair the meetings if he was there, if

11 he wasn't in the field. And if he was absent, the chief of staff would

12 chair the meetings, or the first official from among the assistants. So

13 in addition to the commander, the assistants participated, members of the

14 leadership team and of service branch organs from the staff.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will now

17 continue with the examination.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day. I would like to continue with

22 this line of questions that concerns the meetings in what we call the

23 operations hall. But before we turn to this matter, I would like ask you

24 the following question: Do you know whether there was a sniper unit - and

25 I am saying "sniper unit" - within the army corps?

Page 17506

1 A. No. Such a unit did not exist as far as I know.

2 Q. Thank you very much. I would now like to go back to the subject

3 of protests, and more particularly to the subject of protests for alleged

4 shelling in the rear of the demarcation lines themselves. I think that

5 you had the occasion to see such protests; is that the case?

6 A. Yes, I did have the occasion to see such protests in the

7 operations centre. I have provided some examples in which I participated.

8 I participated in solving them in a certain way, but there were certain

9 protests -- and I didn't participate in solving them but I was familiar

10 with them. One example was then --

11 Q. Witness, I apologise. I'll interrupt you. I'm talking about the

12 rear of the lines. And when I use this term, I am referring to the part

13 of the city of Sarajevo which remained under the control of the BH army.

14 I'm not referring to the lines themselves, not to Butmir or elsewhere. Did

15 you see such protests?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Thank you. According to what you know as operations officer and

18 as someone who was in charge of the AAD units, was it possible that the

19 elements that we were talking about were justified by the presence of

20 military targets - that is to say, of legitimate military targets - in the

21 area of shelling?

22 A. I can't provide you with a more detailed answer because the means

23 that the anti-aircraft units had at their disposal weren't such that they

24 could fire at such targets. All I could do was help with the explanations

25 of some of my associates who have such means. And I'm referring to

Page 17507

1 artillery primarily.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether in the part of the town that we

3 are talking about now, do you know whether there was a certain number of

4 military objectives concealed in that part of the town, legitimate

5 military objectives?

6 A. Yes. I know that there was a certain number of objectives,

7 targets, command posts, ammunition warehouses, the exit from the tunnel

8 which had been made from Sarajevo to Butmir and the like.

9 Q. Thank you. I'd like us to go on discussing this question about

10 shelling and protests, and I will therefore ask you the following: Do you

11 know or can you tell us how many men under arms were in the part of the

12 city that we are talking about, that is, in the other army?

13 A. No.

14 MR. IERACE: I object.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes. I object to the question. It contains no

17 reference to either year, month, day, or even time of day, and no

18 reference to sources. There's no restriction in the question to sources

19 of information that the witness might rely upon in giving his answer.

20 And finally, the question of my learned colleague has not

21 sufficiently defined the area of Sarajevo, to use his words, that we are

22 talking about. That's unclear to me.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since I take it that the witness

24 has not counted them personally, could you please be more specific in your

25 question.

Page 17508

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I could do that,

2 Mr. President. But as regards the part -- the part of Sarajevo that I was

3 talking about, I don't see why things are not sufficiently clear to the

4 Prosecution, because on the one side, we have Serb forces, and on the

5 other, Muslim forces. But I will rephrase my question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, my attention was just drawn to the

7 fact that the witness has answered the question in such a way by saying

8 that he did not. So I -- if he doesn't know, I take it that it's in the

9 largest sense you'd like to put your question to him. Please proceed to

10 your next subject.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, do you know if there was a major difference between the

13 number of troops available on one side, on the side of the BH army, and

14 the other side, that is, the army that you belonged to?

15 A. I did not have accurate precise information, but from other

16 members of the command and the staff I could hear that the ratio was

17 almost drastic and that it was somewhere between 1 to 2, that is, 1 to 3.

18 In other words, that in Sarajevo there were three times more men under

19 arms in Sarajevo than around Sarajevo.

20 Q. Thank you, witness. Now I'd like you to focus on my question.

21 When one is in such a situation where one of the forces outnumbers

22 evidently the forces of the other side, of the other army, can one then

23 say that it is a legitimate strategy to seek to reduce this imbalance,

24 that is, to seek to eliminate as many forces as possible?

25 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. The question --

Page 17509


2 MR. IERACE: I say this with the greatest of respect, is

3 nonsensical. This was war. Whether or not there was an imbalance in the

4 number of troops, imbalance in the sense that one side had more than the

5 other, more troops, does not legitimise to a greater or lesser degree the

6 armed conflict. This sort of question does not assist the Tribunal.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, quite the

10 reverse. Quite the reverse. Because if in a city the ratio is 1 to 3,

11 according to this witness, then the question is whether those who are

12 smaller in number will try to do something to change this ratio, which is

13 highly unfavourable to them, and this can tell us very many things,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first try to find out what the facts were.

16 Mr. DP35, may I ask you, was it the strategy of the Sarajevo

17 Romanija Corps to eliminate as many persons serving in the opposite army,

18 that is, the army that was in control in the city itself, the

19 often -- often called the presidency forces or the BiH forces? Was that

20 the strategy of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

21 A. No. The --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the question whether

23 this would have been a justified strategy or legitimate strategy is not

24 relevant any more. Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 17510

1 Q. Witness, do you know what type of weaponry did your adversary

2 force defend against you?

3 A. I did not go into the core of their defence. This was something

4 that was done by my associates. I was aware that they had no air force,

5 but we had misgivings about that. We had to expect it. We had to

6 anticipate the use of the NATO air force and we were proven correct, even

7 though this is after the period of time that we are talking about. But

8 apart from the general knowledge, I know that they had infantry weaponry

9 practically of the same types that we had, also they had at their disposal

10 regarding the gear of my type, perhaps a smaller number of pieces than I

11 did. I know also that they had armoured vehicles and artillery pieces,

12 but I cannot give you the numbers relevant.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I'm now moving on to another question. In

14 terms of distance, that is, in terms of the technical possibility, your

15 batteries or some of your batteries, were they in a position to fire and

16 hit the part of the city that I was just talking about?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Are you saying that your batteries were too far to be able to aim

19 it and hit that part of the city? Is that your testimony?

20 A. Yes, it is. Besides, they could not fire at the urban part. They

21 could target at the Butmir part and the area towards Sokolovici, which was

22 open and which was not inhabited, because my pieces cannot fire at -- or

23 rather, cannot destroy buildings.

24 Q. Were there -- witness, were there in the army which is yours

25 certain AAD pieces which -- of considerable calibre which were not under

Page 17511

1 your control?

2 A. They were -- all AAD pieces were under control. They were direct

3 control and indirect, because they were in brigades. Indirectly through

4 brigade commanders or chiefs of AAD in brigades and commanders of the

5 batteries there. There were no independent AAD units.

6 Q. And therefore, witness, am I then to deduce logically from this

7 that since your weapons could not -- were outside the reach of the city,

8 or rather the other way, because your weapons -- because the city was

9 beyond the range of your city [as interpreted], then they did not fire

10 during the period that we are talking about. I'm talking about your AAD

11 pieces.

12 A. They did not --

13 MR. IERACE: I object.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes. I object to leading.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.

17 Q. Witness, do you know if during the period under consideration any

18 order was ever issued by your officers or you to use those weapons?

19 A. No. There were no such orders.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I'd like us now to address your

21 contacts with General Galic.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You said that you spent a lot of time in the operations room.

Page 17512

1 MR. IERACE: In relation to the last question. I wonder if there

2 are some words missing. Perhaps I should raise it at this stage rather

3 than later. "Witness, do you know if during the period under

4 consideration any order was ever issued by your officers or you to use

5 those weapons?" Was that further qualified in relation to civilian

6 targets?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Is that about AAD pieces or?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question -- the question

9 should be as follows -- yes, indeed, in order to shell the town, that is,

10 how I worded it. And indeed this is lacking. The target which is the

11 city and the fact that we're talking about AAD weaponry.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... In order to

13 avoid whether confusion, once rephrase your question as you intended to

14 put it.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, you've already answered, but perhaps it is a matter of

17 the transcript, and therefore I will put the question to you in different

18 words. Did you - you personally or your officers - ever issue orders to

19 fire from your weaponry on the part of the city which had remained under

20 the control of the army called the BH army? Yes or no?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you. Now I move on to another series of questions, witness.

23 You told us that you spent a great deal of time in what you call the

24 operations room, and there, therefore, you could meet, I presume very

25 often General Galic or frequently. You could see him there frequently.

Page 17513

1 Was that the case?

2 A. Yes.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel and witness please break

4 between question and answer.

5 Q. Do you know if General Galic spent more time --

6 JUDGE ORIE: There's a request that you make a pause between the

7 answer and the next question. Please proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. My apologies.

9 Q. Witness, can you tell us if General Galic spent more time in the

10 headquarters, that is, in Lukavica, or in the field?

11 A. All in all, about the same. At times he spent more time in the

12 corps command, and at times he would be more often, because we had our

13 forward command posts, and he also spent quite a lot of time there. And

14 besides, we also maintained direct communication with those forward posts.

15 So it is difficult for me to say exactly.

16 Q. Very well. And when a protest would be lodged with you by

17 whomever, concerning, for instance, a case of shelling, and you would then

18 transmit this report to your superiors, this protest which then reached

19 General Galic, what did he do with it? Did he do it professionally? Did

20 he do it carefully? Did he do it how?

21 A. Well, I do not think that he simply glanced over any such protest.

22 The check would be made, depending on the type of the protest. It would

23 be checked through the relevant brigade, relevant unit, or a team would

24 then be sent, which would be assigned by the corps command, and it would

25 involve experts, that is, qualified persons, persons qualified for the

Page 17514

1 types of weaponry allegedly used. And that again went through liaison

2 officers, which means that UNPROFOR received feedback on such an activity.

3 Q. Thank you very much. But professionally and humanely, how would

4 you qualify General Galic, since you knew him personally?

5 A. Well, in my view, as for his humane qualities or his professional

6 qualities, well, of course it is not mine to judge my superior. I can

7 only give some personal view. I always respected my commander

8 professionally and from the point of view of command, and while we worked

9 together in this command, I never heard any order that could be considered

10 inhumane. A war is a war is a war. And there are combat actions, and

11 that is different from what you call humanitarian contexts.

12 Q. Witness, since you are telling us about this aspect of things,

13 since you were close to your commander, I'd like you to focus on a

14 question: Did you personally ever hear any mention by anyone in this

15 command circle in Lukavica about a plan at the corps command the purpose

16 of which would be the eradication of the Muslim population from Sarajevo?

17 A. No. Quite the reverse. There was no such plan, but all our

18 activities were aimed at preserving the Serb population around Sarajevo.

19 Q. Witness, does that mean that you were undertaking principally

20 defence actions?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the usher now please

24 help us to show some documents. I believe we have the following numbers.

25 Just a moment. Excuse me. I have to check it.

Page 17515

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher,

3 please, with the Chamber's leave, we should like to offer certain

4 documents, 1491, 1492, 1493, and 1494.

5 Mr. President, perhaps we could proceed logically by producing the

6 first of these documents, which is the one which ends in "91," that is,

7 91. I will, therefore, show them in sequence to the witness. Every

8 document is in Serbian and is accompanied by its English translation. I

9 will repeat: We should produce them in chronological order, ascending

10 order.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you used now eight lines to

12 indicate that you would follow the number -- the numeric order. If you

13 would have done so, we would have had no difficulties in following you.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

16 very much.

17 Q. Witness, will you please be so kind as to read this document.

18 A. I understand this document. I participated in its preparation. I

19 participated in its processing. And I think it is quite clear that we

20 complied with the existing standards and that we accepted these movements

21 of the humanitarian aid by air, and this was also, as you can see, sent to

22 the SFOR command.

23 Q. Thank you, witness. Will you please now move on to the next

24 document, again, chronologically speaking, and will you read that one as

25 well, please.

Page 17516

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could have it,

2 Mr. President, on the ELMO so that everybody could read the document.

3 Q. Have you been able to read this document, document 1492?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. And the same type of question for item 3 that we see

6 in this document; in other words, are you familiar with this kind of

7 document and have you seen it, when, and so on and so forth, and what can

8 you tell us about its contents?

9 A. Since it has to do with the humanitarian relief, we were quite

10 clear regarding the situation, and I think that the real conditions were

11 we complied with such documents and such orders, and we never prevented

12 nor did we allow to prevent the delivery and distribution of humanitarian

13 relief or passage of humanitarian relief through our territory.

14 Q. Witness, will you please focus on item 3. Item 3 refers basically

15 to the protection of certain persons in wartime conditions in accordance

16 with the Geneva Conventions. And first I'd like to ask you: Are you

17 familiar with this document? Did you see it at the time? And so on and

18 so forth. What do you have to say about it?

19 A. No. I wouldn't be able to comment on item 3.

20 Q. Yes. But my question is: Such instructions to comply with the

21 conventions as such, were they issued relatively frequently at this

22 particular level?

23 A. I cannot say that they were issued relatively frequently. Such

24 instructions were issued whenever the need arose or if something -- or if

25 some change had occurred in relation -- in comparison with the previous

Page 17517

1 situation.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like you now to move on to the next

3 document, that is, the document 1493. Will you please read it, and pay

4 special attention to --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

6 microphone.

7 Q. -- To look at the date and --

8 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear which paragraph.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you talk into the

10 microphone.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm sorry. I am sorry.

12 Q. Will you please be so kind as to look at the date of this

13 document, please, and then the three first passages, the first three

14 paragraphs of the text.

15 A. Yes. I've had a look at it.

16 Q. Can you confirm for us the reality that is reflected in this

17 document? Can you confirm the date? And as for the contents of the

18 document itself?

19 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it was done as ordered, as we can see, that

20 is, who it is delivered to. And it was delivered to the units, as we can

21 see, because this was a unit that had to do with me. It was light AAD. It

22 also received this document, which means that all the units received it

23 and we were able to check whether the lower-ranking units were also

24 informed about this document.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to clear

Page 17518

1 things up, I'd like the witness to read point 2-1, which we have in the

2 Serb document, "to ensure the reception" and so on.

3 Q. Will you read it, witness, please.

4 A. "To ensure the reception and visit control and unfettered and safe

5 movement of UNPROFOR teams and humanitarian relief convoys across the

6 territory of Republika Srpska along authorised routes and at the

7 authorised time." I don't think that anything is unclear here. The units

8 that were related to me did not control either checkpoints or roads or

9 anything. And their job was merely not to allow that such convoys be

10 targeted, but it never happened from our side.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. And now I'd like us to

12 concentrate on the last of the documents, and that document is 1494. Will

13 you please look at that. Can you read this document, please.

14 A. Yes. I am familiar with this document, because it falls directly

15 under my jurisdiction.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, each one of these documents which

17 were shown you, that is, four documents that you were able to see, could

18 you please confirm for us the authenticity of the signatures, that is, in

19 those documents which you identified. Can you tell us, were they indeed

20 signed by the person whose name is indicated there every time at the

21 bottom of every document? Were these documents signed by that person at

22 that time? And, therefore, meaning that that person then issued those

23 orders at the time.

24 A. Yes. The documents were received by the AAD regiment here on the

25 document, and the name of the commander -- we do not see the signature.

Page 17519

1 Why isn't there a signature? Because we can see that on the left-hand

2 side there is a signature of the person who issued the order. When it is

3 on the left-hand side, it means that the message is coded and sent as

4 such. And when you receive it coded -- and it cannot be coded if the

5 document is not -- has not been signed. So this was coded, and it is so

6 guaranteed, since the regiment received it and verified it with its seal

7 and recorded it as such. That is, the way to the code was correct since

8 the document reached the unit. So it should not be a surprise that there

9 is no signature because on no document of the telegram type is there a

10 signature, as it cannot be coded.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please wait for the witness to

12 finish.

13 Q. But these are all instructions and orders which have to do with

14 humanitarian problems.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters are asking not to start speaking

16 when the witness is still speaking, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 Apart from that, if you could find a suitable moment within the

18 next two or three minutes to find a moment for a break.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I only have one

20 question, and then we can make a break.

21 Q. Witness, within the framework of these humanitarian instructions,

22 my question is as follows: Did you ever hear at the corps level, for

23 instance, did you ever hear General Galic insist on the importance to

24 respect the Geneva Conventions specifically?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17520

1 Q. Was it something that happened often, this insistence on the need

2 to observe these conventions and the additional protocols, for instance?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to leading.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The fact I'm asking whether

5 how often this was, do you -- is this a leading question, or does this

6 relate to the previous question, Mr. President?

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's -- it might be about a person rather

8 than about the frequency, or what's --

9 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, it's a leading question, and it

10 follows an earlier leading question, immediately follows. I simply object

11 to leading. That's not an area that is in agreement.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least the question as such suggests -- or

13 the answer might be that's a leading question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Would

14 you please put the question --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 Q. Do you know if General Galic issued --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question.

18 A. One can see from these documents that that was the case, but what

19 is not on paper, what was not written, that happened at the briefings that

20 one had to monitor the situation. I cannot say how frequently that

21 happened, but it was said through the liaison bodies and UNPROFOR, those

22 who had this kind of information, whether every humanitarian convoy has

23 gone.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I will stop you.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will ask this

Page 17521

1 question once again because my question -- because the interpreters did

2 not get my question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think you have to ask the question again, but

4 you have to repeat the wordings of your question, since the question has

5 been answered by the witness. So interpretation has reached him, but not

6 in English. So will you please repeat your question. And you, Mr. DP35,

7 you don't have to answer the question again.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. My question was -- my

9 question was to know whether the witness was aware of the fact that in the

10 humanitarian area General Galic could perhaps issue other recommendations

11 and instructions. And if so, then which?

12 And I believe we can now take a break, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can take a break.

14 Mr. Usher, will you first escort the witness out of the courtroom,

15 and if the parties could just stay for one more second.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE ORIE: I would just like to make one observation in view of

18 the last reformulation of your question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in order to

19 clarify the issue of leading questions. I didn't follow you in French, so

20 I do not know whether the English translation is perfectly expressing what

21 you said. But if you're asking a witness whether he was aware of the fact

22 that in the humanitarian area General Galic could perhaps issue other

23 recommendations, if that would be a translation of your question. If it's

24 not, please tell me now so that I don't have to ...

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. My

Page 17522

1 question implied, rather -- I wasn't asking whether he was familiar that

2 the general, but I was asking him if he knew whether General Galic had --

3 I wasn't asking -- my question was interrogative. It wasn't in the

4 affirmative.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Yes. We'll

6 adjourn until --

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: I'd be grateful for an update as to how much longer

10 the Defence expects to be in chief.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we -- could you inform --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, not much. I think a few

13 minutes.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'd say about 15 minutes; not

16 more than that, Mr. President. Ms. Pilipovic is talking in a very low

17 voice and I can't hear her.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't follow exactly what the problem -- oh,

19 you couldn't understand Ms. Pilipovic.

20 If you take off your earphone, it will be certainly easier for you

21 to understand what Ms. Pilipovic tells you.

22 I have one final question about the maps to be used, if it would

23 be of any use. If we would use another map, and even if during the

24 break - because that's what I understand you intend to do, Ms. Pilipovic,

25 is to make the witness mark the approximate positions of where the AAD was

Page 17523

1 located - this map cannot be used for that, because it's already in

2 evidence. If there would be another map that could be cruised, it could

3 be -- even be done during the break in the presence of the parties;

4 although, I know that you're alone. But -- yes.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm happy to provide the standard

6 Prosecution map that which includes some of the surrounds. And indeed

7 it's something that I would have wanted done before I embarked on

8 extensive cross-examination to have those maps marked.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we invite the witness to do it during the

10 break. If any of the parties would for that reason miss some coffee or

11 whatever, the Chamber will see whether it will be possible to provide it.

12 But the standard procedure is in the presence of a representative of the

13 Registry or of the staff of the -- one of the legal officers of the

14 Chamber and both -- both parties being present.

15 Before adjourning, I would like to instruct the witness himself on

16 what to do during the break. So if, Mr. Usher, it would be

17 possible -- the curtains are still down. If it would be possible to -- to

18 escort the witness into the courtroom for another second. It takes now

19 two or three minutes, but it will save us certainly more time later on.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, you wanted to ask the witness to indicate on the

21 map with dots and numbers the AAD positions the witness testified about;

22 is that correct?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. He can also

24 indicate them with numbers.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, perhaps a dot and a number, because a

Page 17524

1 number might be -- give a rather vague -- especially if the numbers become

2 higher and higher. Number 203 would be easily too vague. It might not

3 be --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] He can also put an "AAD"

5 indication, "1 AAD," something to that effect.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we will ask him to make a small cross

7 and put a number next to it.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP35, I would like to ask you something; it is

10 the following: You have been asked about the AAD positions. And since we

11 had some difficulties with using the map on the board, I'd like to ask you

12 during the break with a black marker to indicate on another

13 black-and-white map that will be provided to you the positions -- the AAD

14 positions you have told us about. Could you please mark every position

15 with a small cross and put a number next to it, so small cross 1 would be

16 AAD position 1; small cross 2 would be AAD position 2. Could you do that

17 during the break. The parties and someone from the Registry might still

18 be present in the courtroom. Then that saves considerable time when we

19 continue later on. I thank you very much in advance for your cooperation.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've understood.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have an additional question to you: If you mark

23 these positions on the map, so a cross, then a number, and then a slash,

24 and then add the calibre of the position you just mentioned. So if it

25 would be position number 3, it would be calibre 30 millimetres, would you

Page 17525

1 please indicate that by "3/30." I'll just give an example.

2 Thank you very much in advance for your cooperation. We'll

3 adjourn until five minutes past 1.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.09 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Awaiting the return of the witness, of which I would

7 like to ask Mr. Usher to escort him into the courtroom.

8 Have the parties had an opportunity to look at the markings made

9 by the witness on the map?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

11 while we're waiting for the witness, I would like to take advantage of the

12 time that we have. We would just like to inform the Chamber that with the

13 schedule and given the possibility of contacting the witnesses, the

14 Defence thinks they will conclude with the hearing of witnesses on the

15 28th of January, or perhaps on the 27th. It depends on how the hearing of

16 the witnesses next week will progress. Then we will have two witnesses

17 outstanding, and we've been allowed to replace them. Our deadline

18 is -- our time limit is three weeks; that is to say, the Prosecution was

19 given three weeks. So I would just like to inform the Trial Chamber that

20 we might have a discussion or a decision on expert witnesses in order to

21 know the schedule for the month of February.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean that all witnesses of fact would be

23 examined by the 28th of January?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have not yet -- the Chamber has not yet

Page 17526

1 responded to the -- to the submissions made by both parties in respect of

2 the -- in respect of the expert witnesses, also because we'd like to do

3 our homework first and see whether there are any additional questions to

4 be put to the parties. But we'll certainly come back to the expert

5 witnesses on very short notice.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That's why I raised the issue.


8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Ierace, you --

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that raises an issue that rises

11 immediate clarification. Perhaps in the absence of the witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we perhaps do it during the last five

13 minutes of today's hearing? The witness is now here, and --

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have had a look at the map with the

16 markings on it. The map is now with the -- where is the map? Is it still

17 with the Prosecution?

18 MR. IERACE: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could -- Mr. Usher, could you please give it to

20 the Defence and then also to the Chamber.

21 Yes. If you'd like to show it to General Galic. Of course.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

23 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the Chamber have a look at it, please.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 17527

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Before moving on to the series of questions concerning the map, I would

5 like to go back to where we stopped just before we had the break and I'm

6 going to put the question as follows:

7 Q. Witness, if possible, what can you tell us about any dissemination

8 of instructions by the military structure with regard to respecting the

9 Geneva Conventions and other conventions which we are interested in?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's microphone please be put on.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please -- well, the

12 witness microphone is on, but perhaps direct it in such a way.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say what I've already said in

14 one of my previous answers. We saw documents which had been processed in

15 the command and which had been forwarded to the unit. There were other

16 such documents for sure which we didn't have, which we didn't have access

17 to, and at other meetings they discussed what was given through the record

18 and what was assigned in tasks. These were two ways of forwarding these

19 things: Directly through general documents - this is how the orders would

20 be forwarded - and the second way was at meetings, reports, and they took

21 the form of conclusions, or rather, excerpts from the record. So that's

22 as much I could say about the matter.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, with regard to what we call "opening fire,"

25 were there any specific instructions which had been given to those

Page 17528

1 who -- at the level of those who used ammunition with regard to the

2 specific issues, that is to say, how to open fire, under which

3 circumstances, et cetera? Do you know anything about this? Are you

4 familiar with this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was the nature of these instructions?

7 A. In each combat order, in each order, it stated that for AAD units,

8 fire should only be opened if there was an air attack. As I have already

9 said, there were no such attacks during that period, and as far as targets

10 on the ground are concerned, fire should be opened if under threat or if

11 an attack was carried out against our firing positions and against the

12 combat positions in the areas we were located in.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like to turn to the matter of the

14 positions that you have marked on the map that will be tendered as an

15 exhibit later. I would like you to tell us the positions that you have

16 marked on this map. Are these positions that you were familiar with while

17 you were in the command, that is to say, during the second part of your

18 military career?

19 A. Yes. Each position was directly indicated, and it was possible to

20 make corrections. If I suggested this or with the authorisation of the

21 commander, or on the spot within a position a piece of artillery was under

22 threat, and this was often the case at the sports airport position or the

23 Ilinjaca position. We had to move the weapon 30 to 50 metres because the

24 weapon was under threat. And the points that have been marked on the map

25 are fixed points for the positions which were the basic and central

Page 17529

1 positions. At one point -- at several -- in several places I have marked

2 these positions with a "Y," although you said I should mark these

3 positions with an "X." All the positions marked with an "X" are regiment

4 positions, and I used a "Y" to mark the positions that belonged to the

5 brigade and were in the area of our deployment.

6 Q. Thank you, witness, because you have answered the next question I

7 was going to ask you. I wanted to ask you whether there was a difference

8 between the regiment and the brigade, but we can see that you have already

9 mentioned this difference by referring to these two letters.

10 Witness, having examined the map a minute ago, I was able to see

11 that some of the positions that you mentioned were fairly close to what we

12 call the part of the town that was under the control of the BH army. I

13 would like to put to you a more specific question, after having examined

14 this map with you: Weren't there any areas which were nevertheless within

15 range of your batteries? And I mean within the entire area of this part

16 of Sarajevo which was under the control of the enemy force.

17 A. In terms of range, yes. But we measure the range for air targets.

18 If we are examining the ground, the range is interrupted. It's no longer

19 a distant range until you encounter the first obstacle, because my

20 artillery pieces are so sensitive that when they hit an obstacle, the

21 projectile explodes immediately. Any obstacle will diminish the range if

22 there is an obstacle at a distance of 200 metres, then the weapon no

23 longer has a range of 2.000 metres. Therefore, the possible targets, up

24 to a distance of two or three thousand metres, such targets are no longer

25 in my range because in a densely inhabited part of town, in an urban part

Page 17530

1 of the town of Sarajevo the weapons were no longer effective. Artillery

2 that had a certain form of trajectory could be used, but I could only use

3 my pieces of artillery as direct fire, for direct fire.

4 Q. And my very last question: If there were targets which were not

5 air targets - and this is purely hypothetical - if you had such targets,

6 what was the nature of these targets? Were they -- were there any such

7 targets that were fixed? What can you tell us about this? Outside of the

8 town too, obviously.

9 A. Targets outside of the town. Well, there's a map in front of us

10 with the position Y5. That's Ilidza, as far as I can see. We could fire

11 from these positions in Ilidza only at the part over Butmir, where there

12 was a road which led -- which went above Hrasnica, to Igman. We could

13 fire at part of that road, or we could fire at Butmir Polje, from one

14 artillery piece. We had information, because we were often fired at from

15 there -- we had information according to which they had a weapon called a

16 Zis 70 millimetres, a Zis gun. We knew where it was positioned and we

17 changed the position of our artillery piece, our 40-millimetre piece in

18 order to get this weapon in range, but it was not possible for us because

19 there were obstacles.

20 On the road to Igman, we were only able to target vehicles that

21 had been -- that were of olive-drab colour or camouflage colour for which

22 we could assume that they were transporting ammunition and other explosive

23 devices.

24 Q. Thank you. I have another two questions, witness. The first

25 question is as follows: Did you ever shell or fire on the so-called

Page 17531

1 airport area? I'm not referring to the Butmir airport. I'm referring to

2 the Sarajevo airport.

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. Thank you. And my second question has to do with the Mojmilo

5 Hill, the so-called Mojmilo Hill. Under whose control was this hill?

6 That's the first part of my question?

7 A. I think that it was under the control of perhaps two companies.

8 Up to a battalion. It could have been under the control of a battalion.

9 Q. Of which army?

10 A. Of the Muslim army.

11 Q. Thank you. And were you ever able to hit legitimate targets in

12 this Mojmilo area?

13 A. Yes, we were.

14 Q. From where?

15 A. From a position that I have marked with "Y1."

16 Q. What's the location?

17 A. Y1. It's near Lukavica. Here it is, in the lower part of the

18 map, near the barracks. Let me just turn this around. It's this part

19 here. We can see "Y1." That's right. There was a 30-millimetre

20 artillery piece there. Mojmilo was within its -- within their change. We

21 were contacted directly from the building of the commander's. Weapons

22 were either above the command and they were defending the command from

23 weapons from Mojmilo.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

Page 17532

1 usher, Mr. President, I would like to put one last document on the ELMO.

2 I will give it to the usher, if he approaches me.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the last document? Because you indicated

4 what was your last question, then what was your first and your second

5 question, and again you added two more, and now a new document turns up.

6 Is this --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's both.

8 It's the last document and it's the last question.



11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let's have a look

12 at the document.

13 Q. Witness, I would be grateful if you could tell us, first of all,

14 whether you yourself made this document, and can you comment on all

15 aspects of it. Can you tell us what it represents and in particular why

16 it contains these different symbols and why it contains the UN symbol too.

17 A. Well, these are the positions of the Muslim forces on Mojmilo,

18 which was within the area of -- or within the range of the Y1 position.

19 That's a slope which is a little above our barracks, above the Slavica

20 Vajner-Cica barracks. And we were in the barracks in the vicinity about

21 300 or 400 metres away. We were in the Slobodan Princip-Seljo barracks.

22 And they fired at us from these positions that have been marked with the

23 numbers. You can see that they've been marked as trenches or as

24 orientation points. And in this part, which was under the direct control

25 of our forces, they fired on our command posts and our on road that went

Page 17533

1 through Lukavica. We can see that all these trenches connected by

2 communicating trenches. There were trenches up there, and these

3 orientation points, we have bunkers there. We've got two types that have

4 been marked, orientation points and R. "R" stands for a trench. And a

5 bunker was fortified. It had a loophole which was used to fire at us from

6 Brownings, Browning machine-guns, 12.7-millimetre machine-guns. On the

7 basis of such fire, we determined that there were also machine-guns which

8 had sights, sniper machine-guns, and we established this on the basis of

9 the precision of fire in our area.

10 As far as the marks are concerned, you see the UN feature. Above

11 that position -- there weren't that many houses there. They've been

12 indicated in the horizontal part. But the UN sign indicates that there

13 was a house there where UN members were located. In our area, in our

14 zone, they were French members of the UN. But here to the right, that is

15 to say, the eastern part, there was a house. And later I found out that

16 that part was under the control of the Russians, and for a certain period

17 of time they had even been held in captivity in that part. So the UN sign

18 was there for us, for us to know that they were in the vicinity. But

19 action was taken below them, about 100 metres below them, and fire was

20 opened from these bunkers.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please put the microphone on.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin indicated that he would have

23 no further questions but did that without putting the microphone on.

24 Mr. Ierace, the issue you had in mind which should be raised

25 immediately, how much time would that take? If it would be more than five

Page 17534

1 minutes, I would suggest that we ask the witness --

2 MR. IERACE: As best as I may expect, it won't be more than five

3 minutes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please start, if you're ready to

5 cross-examine the witness.

6 Mr. DP35, you'll now be -- we'll at least make a start with being

7 examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

8 You may proceed, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

11 Q. This morning you said that you commenced your responsibilities in

12 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps on the 4th of July, 1992 and up until the 8th

13 of February, 1993 you were the AAD regiment commander. Were you attached

14 to any particular brigade at that stage, in that period?

15 A. The regiment is immediately attached to the corps command, just

16 like the brigade, it is attached to the corps command. So the regiment,

17 too, is one of the independent units, which is immediately connected to

18 the chief of staff or, rather, to the commander. As the chief, I had

19 links to the chief of staff. And as commander of the regiment, I had

20 links to the corps commander.

21 Q. What other differences, if any, were there in terms of your

22 responsibilities between those two positions that you held?

23 A. Well, the difference mainly consisted in the fact that as a

24 regiment commander I had the batteries and the regiment under my direct

25 command and I was responsible to the corps commander for their use. As

Page 17535

1 the chief of the anti-aircraft defence, this was an organ of the service

2 branch, which was connected to the chief of staff and we would

3 submit proposals concerning the preparation of decisions. And once

4 decisions were taken by the commander, I would then participate in the

5 implementation of these decisions as the organ of command. So the

6 regiment wasn't under my command -- I wasn't commanding the regiment, but

7 I was monitoring how the tasks were being executed, the tasks that the

8 commander had decided on. That was the difference.

9 Q. What was your rank on the 4th of July, 1992?

10 A. On the 4th of July I held the rank of major. I was waiting to be

11 promoted to the rank of lieutenant colonel, which I was -- which was

12 conferred on me in autumn.

13 Q. Which month?

14 A. I think the order arrived in September/October, and I held the

15 rank from April 1992.

16 Q. And when you refer to September/October, I take it you mean 1992;

17 is that correct?

18 A. 1992. That's correct.

19 Q. You are recorded on the transcript as saying that you held the

20 rank from April 1992. Should that be from April 1993?

21 A. No. April 1992 is when I was promoted to that rank, but the order

22 on promoting me to that rank arrived in autumn 1992.

23 Q. All right. Now --

24 A. Not before.

25 Q. When your position changed on the 8th of February, 1993, was that

Page 17536

1 a promotion or a demotion?

2 A. No. In terms of position, it was neither a promotion or a

3 demotion. That's what was necessary then. I was the regiment commander.

4 I had a younger officer who didn't have the appropriate rank, and he was

5 performing the duties of my deputy. During this period, these six or

6 eight months, he became independent to a certain extent and then the

7 commander decided to assign him as acting commander of the regiment and to

8 assign me, designate me as the AAD chief. Those were the needs in the

9 corps. But I often went to control the regiment, to carry out controls in

10 the regiment in order to assist this younger officer.

11 Q. You understand that having regard to the description that you gave

12 of each of the job's responsibilities, it might be thought that the

13 responsibility involved with the job that you assumed on the 8th of

14 February, 1993 was somewhat less than the responsibility of the job that

15 you held as the AAD regiment commander. Are you sure there was no

16 demotion?

17 A. No. It was a higher position, after all.

18 Q. Now, you mentioned the -- your replacement as regiment commander

19 was assigned as acting commander. What was his name?

20 A. Yes. Goran Cosovic, he was a young captain.

21 Q. Is his name spelled C-o-s-o-v-i-c?

22 A. C with a diacritic mark, yes. Cosovic. You have a C with a

23 diacritic mark at the beginning and a C with a diacritic mark at the end.

24 Q. How long did he remain in that position?

25 A. Up until the end of the war, up until the Dayton Agreement.

Page 17537

1 Q. Are you sure about that?

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. Now, did you remain in the position that you assumed in February

4 1993 until the end of the war?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Did you remain in that position beyond the end of the war? And if

7 so, for how long?

8 A. No, I didn't remain in that position because our corps after the

9 Dayton Agreement --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- For chronological reasons,

13 which we are familiar with. This is after November 1995 --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Perhaps we'll hear the

15 response of Mr. Ierace in the absence of the witness. We are close to

16 where we have to have a break anyhow.

17 So I'd first like to ask Mr. Usher to escort the witness out of

18 the courtroom.

19 Mr. DP35, we'll finish for today, but we'd like to see you back

20 for the continuation of your examination tomorrow morning at 9.00 -- no,

21 tomorrow it's Wednesday, in the afternoon.

22 And Madam Registrar, before making my next mistake, what would be

23 the courtroom? Courtroom II.

24 We'd like to see you back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the

25 afternoon in another courtroom, but the -- those who are assisting you

Page 17538

1 will tell you where to come, and we'll then continue.

2 Then Mr. Usher, will you please escort the witness as soon as the

3 curtains are finally down.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before giving an opportunity to Mr. Ierace to

6 raise the issue he thought he had to raise, perhaps he could first respond

7 to the objection to the last question.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I withdraw the

9 objection for the sake of time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

11 Then Mr. Ierace, there was another issue related to the 27/28

12 January message conveyed to us by the Defence. Could you please express

13 yourself.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I seek firstly to clarify the

15 statement by the Defence is the Defence indicating that the only remaining

16 witnesses after that date indicated will be expert witnesses; in other

17 words, to give an example -- perhaps we could go into closed session,

18 Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into closed session.

20 [Closed session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

23 at 1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

24 the 15th day of January, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.