Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17744

1 Friday, 17 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.21 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 After this short training in experience this morning, good morning

10 to everyone in the courtroom. I see that all the computers, I hope, are

11 functioning properly.

12 Mr. Ierace, did I see that you wanted to raise --

13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. And a few matters that perhaps I

14 could raise in private session.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then turn in to private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.

20 Then Madam Usher, could you please escort the Witness DP35 into

21 the courtroom. The public gallery is empty, as far as I can see. Facial

22 distortion and pseudonym are the applicable protective measures.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 17749


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to do so.

4 And I'd like to make it clear that since we were not able to join copies

5 because in our chamber things were not working properly.

6 But never mind. I should like to say now good morning to the

7 Chamber and to go back to what we addressed yesterday, the subject that we

8 broached yesterday.

9 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

10 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember that we were talking about --

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- I remind you, Mr. DP35, that you are still bound

13 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony

14 in this court.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Q. Witness, we remember that we talked about the area of Dobrinja,

19 and you pointed at two Serb positions. And in response to

20 Judge Nieto-Navia, you said it was very difficult to know from where shots

21 came under wartime conditions. This is a summary of what you said

22 yesterday. Do you remember that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Now, my question is as follows: Since you said that it was

25 difficult to know where and how the shots were fired, can you tell us,

Page 17750

1 when we talk about the military confrontation, that is, the fire, what

2 happened between the positions that you described yesterday and the Serb

3 positions to the south-south-west of the airport, and the adversary

4 positions facing them?

5 A. I mentioned Dobrinja I and IV on the Serb side and Dobrinja II and

6 III on the Muslim side. That is where the nearest contact was. At times

7 there was just a street separating them. In some places there were

8 buildings on the opposite sides. And there were also instances when both

9 parties would be in one and the same building. There was movement only

10 under the cover of darkness, and if somebody noticed --

11 Q. Witness, I am sorry for interrupting you. I do not want you to

12 sum up what you told us yesterday, but I'm asking you what can you tell us

13 about what went on between the opposed positions regarding the fire

14 between -- the exchange of fire, et cetera.

15 A. Fire was opened -- fire would be opened if a soldier of the other

16 side emerged somewhere, be it in daytime or at night. If somebody started

17 moving openly, since this was the line of direct contact, there were no

18 warnings nor would one wait for orders to open fire, and both parties

19 opened fire whenever the enemy -- whenever an enemy soldier would emerge

20 in view.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, immediately after that question that you were

22 asked by Judge Nieto-Navia, you showed us the north-north-west part of the

23 airport, and you indicated with your hand where that was. However, it was

24 not clear, at least not to me, what you meant by that. What was it that

25 you meant when you mentioned the north-north-west part of the airport? Do

Page 17751

1 you remember?

2 A. I showed that the runway extended in north -- towards north-west,

3 that is, towards Ilidza. And our signs were -- our forces were in

4 the -- in its north-eastern part.

5 Q. Thank you. Witness, following a question asked by Judge El Mahdi,

6 you said that eventually the air warfare started. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Now, my question is as follows: How many -- how efficient -- how

9 efficient was the positioning of the batteries, such as it was at that

10 time, concerning strictly speaking the anti-aircraft defence?

11 A. The positions were good.

12 MR. IERACE: I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: As the witness himself indicated, that postdates the

15 relevant period, and therefore the question lacks relevance.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. If the

18 witness would take off his earphones, please.


20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, because the

21 position is as follows -- may I explain?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's a relatively technical matter.

23 Yes.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The position is as follows:

25 We are not trying to speak about when the air warfare started in

Page 17752

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina effectively, but the purpose of the question, at least

2 why the positioning was taking place. People do not know when air war is

3 going to be declared under those circumstances. What is interesting to

4 find out is whether the positioning of the battery, such as it was, around

5 Sarajevo was conceived within the framework of anti-aircraft defence and

6 not in some other -- within some other framework, and that applies to the

7 period under consideration.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. Please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Will you answer the question -- now, please, will you put on your

11 headset.

12 Yes. Witness, do you remember the question, and will you answer

13 it?

14 A. Yes, I do remember it.

15 Q. Thank you. Then answer the question.

16 A. The positions of the units that I spoke about of the anti-aircraft

17 defence were appropriate with certain shifts for the performance of tasks

18 in those areas where there were operations. After the period that we are

19 talking about, that is, after August 1994, during this period of time and

20 later on we also carried out the training of units which were involved

21 with the force system Strela 2M, and that is light equipment and they had

22 their moving positions for them, that is, they made part of the large

23 units previously deployed.

24 Q. Thank you, witness. I now want to move on to a series of

25 questions that were asked by Judge Orie. Do you remember that you were

Page 17753

1 asked about the state hospital? And I want to ask you something about

2 that.

3 A. Yes, I do remember it.

4 Q. Thank you. What can you tell us regarding the destruction of the

5 state hospital, that is, the facade of the hospital facing Vrace in

6 chronological terms, if you can do that? That is, do you remember when

7 did the major part of this damage happen? What do you know about that,

8 please?

9 A. My answer cannot be complete in this case because I said yesterday

10 that the state hospital, that is, the military hospital, was not one of

11 the objectives -- one of the targets that was under my or my unit's

12 jurisdiction, that it was not for us an interesting target, and that it

13 could have been hit by accident. I can tell you confidently and sincerely

14 that I never paid any attention and that from Vrace I didn't even try to

15 see what the upper storeys of the state hospital looked like, and that is

16 why I said that I assumed that only the top part of the building could be

17 seen. So I really am not able to tell you how badly the building was

18 damaged.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like us now to broach what we call

20 Christmas fire or Christmas shots. My first question is: What was the

21 chief religion in the units for which you were responsible? Which was for

22 the most part the religion embraced by your units?

23 A. In the units for which I was responsible, people were Orthodox,

24 were of Eastern Orthodox faith. In our units, we had one or two Muslims

25 even or Croats, but apart from that --

Page 17754

1 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you remind us for the sake of clarity

2 what is the date of Christmas adhering to this faith?

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Took all

4 measures not to sit on Christmas -- Orthodox Christmas. I think it's

5 really something that is well known to the Chamber. Please proceed.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

7 much.

8 Q. Therefore, since we all know --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, very

10 much. And we thank you for that.

11 Q. Why should then an unit which was almost exclusively Orthodox to

12 celebrate on the 24th something, since that was not its holiday?

13 A. No reason at all. I've already said that. Because in the

14 immediate context --

15 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. Thank you. I now move on to

16 what you told us, and you told us that you had trouble with ammunition.

17 If we're talking about 20 minutes of incessant fire, in view of the

18 weapons which were explicitly mentioned, that is, all the artillery

19 weapons, including the tank, including the AAD weaponry, can you tell us

20 approximately what would be the quantity of the necessary ammunition to

21 allow incessant fire from all these pieces for something that amounts to

22 20 minutes?

23 A. The 40-millimetre gun in 20 minutes can fire -- or rather, any

24 piece can use up and complete a set and spend all it bullets at a position

25 which would never occur to anyone, the platoon commander, a foot soldier,

Page 17755

1 a gunner, or anyone. As for other pieces, in 20 minutes' time, all these

2 pieces would have used up all their ammunition stocks, and I would have

3 used up all the available ammunition at a particular position in 20

4 minutes.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please wait for the witness to

6 finish his answer.

7 Q. Now, all these pieces of artillery around Sarajevo, had they

8 opened their fire and kept firing for 20 minutes, can you tell us from the

9 logistics point of view how many trucks would have been needed to carry

10 all this ammunition around Sarajevo. Can you tell us an approximate

11 figure?

12 A. Well, I can tell you about my pieces. 8.000 bullets, one battery

13 can fire 8.000 bullets in less than 20 minutes. In other words, a

14 110-tonne truck with these 8.000 bullets which are fired in less than 20

15 minutes with a change of the drum. In other words, of the ammunition

16 available, if I had planned three combat sets, then I'd need a truck per

17 battery, which makes for three trucks. So only I, that is, my unit, would

18 need for these six or seven batteries -- we'd practically need 20 trucks

19 to transport just one set of ammunition per battery. Not to speak of

20 brigades which are much stronger and which have many more pieces. The

21 Sarajevo Romanija Corps did not have that many trucks.

22 Q. Very well. Now, let us imagine, witness, that other sectors of

23 armament - and I'm still talk hypothetically - that they also needed and

24 used the same quantity of ammunition, and again I'm still talking

25 approximately. They would need about the same number of trucks.

Page 17756

1 A. Well, artillery perhaps would need more. I'm sure about that.

2 And tanks would need even more, because a tank cannot carry too much

3 ammunition, so they need accompanying trucks.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, witness, in view of your position --

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


7 MR. IERACE: I object to this line of questioning, although your

8 questions to the witness at one point concerned the events of Christmas,

9 it was not this aspect. And indeed, it was open to my learned colleague

10 in re-examination following my cross-examination to ask these questions.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yesterday I asked a series of

14 important questions dealing both with the Orthodox and the Catholic

15 Christmas, and you asked those questions, and you asked the witness about

16 this, to clarify a number of points. Now, I believe the Defence is

17 entitled to ask because we never asked about these types of rounds of

18 fire, what does -- what do 20 minutes of fire mean for all the pieces

19 around in Sarajevo, and we believe that we're entitled to ask these

20 questions and clarify them.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness has answered, at least, the first

22 of your questions, and it appears that his testimony is that it would

23 take -- this intensity of firing of all the units and batteries would take

24 such an immense logistical exercise. And he gave examples of what would

25 be needed only for his units. So I think what the witness tells us in

Page 17757

1 this respect is quite clear. But if you have one or more two questions --

2 I mean, that -- the line of his answer is perfectly clear, and I don't

3 think that mathematics on all the units would be necessary in order to

4 understand his testimony. Please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes. It's along

6 those lines, one or two questions.

7 Q. Witness, since this logistics - and again, I'm saying

8 hypothetically - also would imply orders which would be issued and

9 transmitted, did you ever at any moment around the date of the -- around

10 the date of the 24th December 1992 and then on the 6th of January, 1993,

11 did you ever see any such order that would be of this nature, that is,

12 which would have to do with the order and supply of a major quantity of

13 ammunition?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, I'd like

17 us to throw more light on the matter.

18 Q. Witness, I want to see if you remember a particular thing.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I'd like to have on the

20 ELMO a document which is numbered 05958985 [as interpreted], and I have a

21 copy for everybody, and it is only a document which is an UNPROFOR

22 document, that is, a document which originated with military observers

23 themselves. It is only a few lines.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I seek --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Oh, 01008985.

Page 17758

1 MR. IERACE: Might I see the document before it's placed on the



4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It is a document -- it

5 is Exhibit P620. It was tendered under number P620, and I have here one

6 page of the document and I'm interested only in page 9 of that document.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --


9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there have been tight constraints on

10 the examination of this witness exercised by the Trial Chamber. This line

11 of questioning clearly goes beyond the issues that you raised with this

12 witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know. I have not yet looked at this

14 document, so I don't know whether there's a -- a direct relation to that.

15 But Mr. -- You say, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're only interested in page 9.

16 Could you tell us which part, because there appear to be different dates

17 on --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is

19 very important because you yourself asked questions of what the witness

20 remembered while he was on Trebevic. He told you he didn't remember. And

21 this is the 24th December 1992. And again, I'll read it to you, because

22 that would not be right. But it tells us very clearly about a number of

23 shots fired and registered by military observers. And if there are any

24 doubts, we also have the date of the 25th of December --

25 JUDGE ORIE: We see that the document directly relates to the 24th

Page 17759

1 of December, 1992. It says in the top that it's a confidential document.

2 Is it still, or is it --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was tendered in evidence,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Was it admitted into evidence?

6 THE REGISTRAR: It was never tendered or admitted. P620 is not on

7 the exhibit list.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In that case, my apologies.

9 We have it with seal P620, but perhaps it was withdrawn. I apologise. I

10 see here the stamp of the Prosecution, but perhaps it was not tendered by

11 the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you -- perhaps you first check that --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is no zero.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I have no idea at this moment what exactly document

15 it is. Is the Prosecution aware of what this document is?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I first raise this issue, that

17 at the moment we are in open session. The witness has his headphones on.

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is indicating in part, at least, the contents of the

19 document, that it's an entirely inappropriate way for us to be dealing

20 with the admissibility of the document or the contents.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree. I limited it myself that it was

22 about the 24th of December.

23 And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you explained extensively where the

24 document came from, what it was about. That's not a proper way of

25 describing a document when it still has to be introduced to a witness,

Page 17760

1 because it's of no use to ask him questions on that any more because he

2 has heard perhaps part of the answers already.

3 Could you please at this very moment move to your next subject and

4 we'll consider what to do, whether any questions will be allowed on this

5 document.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I should

7 be happy to do that.


9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But let me say something. I

10 wanted to confront the memory of the witness about what is said in this

11 document, and I do not have the impression that I was in breach of any

12 regulations or rules that we have to comply with. But I will move on to

13 another subject, and I believe that I will have to opportunity to come

14 back to this.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will consider whether additional questions.

16 And perhaps you'll find out in the meanwhile what creates the confusion as

17 to whether this is admitted or tendered document.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 Q. Witness, with regard to opening fire, you said that when something

22 was being celebrated on the balcony, it was customary on occasion to fire.

23 Do you remember saying that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. In such a situation, when one fires, can you tell us

Page 17761

1 what one fires at?

2 A. Into the air. Into the air.

3 Q. Yesterday you used the term "making a lot of noise." Do you

4 remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you used this term, when you said "making a loud noise," were

7 you referring to the same thing that you mentioned a minute ago?

8 A. Yes, firing into the air, to mark something, to celebrate

9 something. There was no particular purpose -- no particular reason to

10 fire at a specific target.

11 Q. Thank you very much. And that is in relation to the answer that

12 you provided yesterday; is that the case?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, around the 24th or 25th of December, 1992, do

15 you know whether there was a fairly large-scale military operation that

16 was ongoing?

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 MR. IERACE: I don't believe you've ruled on my objection against

20 this line of questioning which goes well beyond the specific issue that

21 you raised in your questions of the witness, which was whether from where

22 he was he could have heard such an incident.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll withdraw the question,

24 Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

Page 17762

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I would now like to move on to the issue of complaints and firing

3 incidents. You mentioned in general terms - I don't have the page. It

4 was yesterday - you mentioned investigations carried out by those who were

5 responsible for this, investigations into firing incidents, to prove that

6 these protests didn't correspond to reality. Do you remember this?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you be more specific and tell us what you mean when you say

9 that this did not correspond to the truth or to reality. Could you please

10 be more specific and provide us with more details.

11 A. I mentioned the case of Dobrinja. On the first day a protest was

12 lodged, and through the media it was stated that no conclusions had been

13 reached, neither by members of the corps who participated in the

14 investigation of the case nor by UNPROFOR representatives. And finally,

15 that protest wasn't confirmed by the opposing side either. So the media

16 would step ahead and say lots of things and that was ascribed to us.

17 These protests were investigated, but it was most often the case that the

18 protests were not confirmed.

19 Q. Very well. Witness, could you take note of the following, what

20 you said in your testimony yesterday, with regard to the problem of what

21 we call small arms here, or rather, infantry arms. You said the

22 following, and I am going to quote you from the English transcript: [In

23 English] -- Whether a team was formed on every occasion because it was

24 mostly combat operations."

25 Do you remember this statement?

Page 17763

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. What I'm interested in are the terms that you used. And I'll

3 repeat them: [In English] "combat operations." [Interpretation] What did

4 you mean by that? What did you want to indicate when you said that it was

5 mostly combat operations? Could you please expand on that.

6 A. Yes. To be as brief as possible, when I used the term "combat

7 operation," I think that the protest might have had sense when there was a

8 cease-fire, when there was a so-called truth. That's why I said "mostly,"

9 because there were mostly combat operations but there were several such

10 violations and there were casualties. I know that there were a lot of

11 casualties on our side too.

12 Q. Very well. But I think that for me personally the answer isn't

13 quite clear. I'll rephrase the question. What are the risks, if any, for

14 the civilian population in the situation that you described as a military

15 operation? Have you understood my question?

16 A. Yes, I have. The civilian population was always at risk if they

17 moved in the area or the immediate vicinity of the contact line and the

18 combat area. It was possible for something to happen, for there to be

19 casualties at the most peaceful place outside the combat zone. So no one

20 could guarantee in the area and in the line of contact and in the zone of

21 combat, no one could guarantee safety for the civilians.

22 Q. And why would someone have been killed in an area that was

23 peaceful or relatively peaceful.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question.


Page 17764

1 MR. IERACE: I respectfully submit these questions go well beyond

2 the line of questioning by you and Your Honours. I'd be grateful for some

3 guidance as to whether you wish me to raise what I would think to be

4 appropriate objections or whether given that the questioning came from you

5 and Your Honours, you take the view that you don't want that assistance

6 and it's for you and Your Honours to decide.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I say

8 something?


10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I maintain that this arises

11 directly from the answer that this witness provided to your question with

12 regard to the question of the investigations carried out. The witness

13 quite clearly said what the case was with regard to combat situations for

14 most of the time. He's just provided some important information with

15 regard to the calm areas, calm zones. I think it is our responsibility to

16 clarify this, whether we like it or not.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: The question put to the witness may be answered by

19 the witness. This does not mean that you're not at the edge of what was

20 the subject of my questioning. Please proceed.

21 And so the question was why people -- why someone would have been

22 killed in an area that was peaceful or relatively peaceful. You yourself,

23 you talked about places outside of the zone of combat. Would you tell us

24 how -- why someone would be killed there.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the area near the line of

Page 17765

1 contact, the combat area, can have a depth. It varies. Civilians could

2 be at risk in an area of 100 or 200 metres or in an area of 2 kilometres

3 or more. The conditions weren't such, and I think this is the case for

4 the enemy side too. It wasn't possible to move all the population for

5 each combat -- move out all the population for each combat operation. The

6 entire Sarajevo would have had to have been moved out and all the

7 surrounding villages. They would have had to move them 5 kilometres from

8 the line of contact, and this was impossible. No decree or instructions

9 from a president of any state couldn't do that, so it means that civilians

10 on both sides, many of them found themselves in the combat zone. If the

11 effective range of a rifle is 700 metres, a bullet which misses its target

12 could represent a threat for a civilian at a range of 3 kilometres into

13 the depth. A civilian could be digging in the garden in front of his or

14 her house, and there were such cases where civilians died. And this

15 relates to a distance of up to 2 kilometres in the depth, and it could be

16 a danger for children too.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.


19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I would now like to talk about Markale. You answered certain

21 questions about Markale. I'm referring to the explosion, or rather, the

22 problem of Markale.

23 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever misunderstanding,

24 questions have been put to the witness not about Markale itself but about

25 discussions about Markale and the basis for such discussions.

Page 17766

1 Investigations, discussions, but not the content of the Markale incident

2 itself.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll just confer for a minute.

5 Thank you.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Provided certain details about

9 Markale, do you have any other information that you could provide to this

10 Trial Chamber in order to clarify the matter completely? That would be my

11 very last question, Mr. President.

12 MR. IERACE: I object.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question. And whether any

14 subsequent questions can be put to him in relation to his answer.

15 MR. IERACE: May I be heard, Mr. President, in relation to the

16 objection?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I thought I understood it. But perhaps I

18 am not listening carefully enough. Could your objection be raised in the

19 presence of the witness, or would we have to -- could the objection be

20 explained? It has been raised already.

21 MR. IERACE: Yes. Might he be taken from the courtroom,

22 Mr. President and the Trial Chamber?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, could you please escort the

24 witness for a minute out of the courtroom.

25 Mr. DP35, I have to ask you to take off the headphones and to

Page 17767

1 follow the usher.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, your questioning about Markale was a

4 probing of what internal investigation was carried out by the Sarajevo

5 Romanija Corps. This question by Mr. Piletta-Zanin is extraordinarily

6 broad, the keyword being "do you have any other information that you could

7 provide to this Trial Chamber." They're the keywords. The topic,

8 Markale. It's an indication to the witness to say whatever he likes about

9 Markale in terms of hearsay, any aspect of Markale. That's not at

10 all -- question does not at all focus the attention of the witness. And

11 for this question to be asked after re-examination following on questions

12 by Your Honours which touched on one aspect of Markale, that is an

13 internal SRK investigation, in my respectful submission creates a problem.

14 If this is permissible, then it means that any topic raised by questions

15 from the Bench can then be the subject of further re-examination, in terms

16 of any other aspect.

17 Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what did you have in mind when you

19 put the question to the witness whether he had any additional information

20 about Markale?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President -- just a

22 minute, please.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I didn't

25 want to interrupt, but I think that this witness, when he answered the

Page 17768

1 question, I don't think the witness provided detailed information about

2 what he may have known about the UN's reaction to the investigation that

3 was carried out. He spoke in very general terms, but he didn't go into

4 details. And I think that given the rank of this witness, it would be

5 useful to hear what he has to say. But the issue is for you to decide.

6 Mr. President, may I use this time while the witness is absent and

7 just point out another problem, the 24th and 25th of December and the 6th

8 of January, 1992 and 1993. Could I mention -- could I discuss this very

9 briefly before the witness returns?

10 JUDGE ORIE: I'd just like to -- to ask you a clarification of

11 what you just said. You said that you don't think that the witness

12 provided detailed information about what he may have known about the UN's

13 reaction to the investigation. That raises a few questions. The first is

14 whether he has been asked about the UN reaction to the investigation. And

15 it's not clear to me what you mean by "the investigation." Do you mean

16 one of the five, six, or seven investigations that we have heard about or

17 any other investigation?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the

19 investigations carried out by the United Nations and that we are familiar

20 with here, and I'm referring to the reactions of some members of the UN

21 with regard to the quality of these investigations, et cetera.


23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: The questions put to the witness by the Bench related

25 to whatever investigation done by the Bosnian Serb forces, not by any

Page 17769

1 other institution. So questions are allowed in relation to any

2 investigation done by the Bosnian Serb forces, not any other

3 investigation.

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the second issue you wanted to raise was about

5 the -- another problem about Christmas --

6 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: May that be done in private session.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The next one to be done in private session,

9 you'd say?

10 MR. IERACE: The discussion about the report.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that -- this report, yes. We could do that in

12 private session.

13 Could we turn in to private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17770












12 Page 17770 redacted private session














Page 17771












12 Page 17771 redacted private session














Page 17772

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, with regard to Markale, do you know whether there was an

12 investigations team that was formed at the level of the general staff in

13 order to examine the situation and the cause, if any, and if such a

14 team -- commission was formed, what could you tell us about it? Who

15 participated in its work and what were the relations, if any, of this

16 commission with other parties, other commissions, et cetera? Thank you.

17 A. I don't know if a commission was formed at the level of the

18 general staff because I didn't have any documents that had to do with

19 that. I know that there was an order and I know what I said in my

20 previous answers. I know that it was suggested that a team should be

21 formed which was to participate in a joint commission at the level of the

22 corps. But about the general staff, I can't tell you anything.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like to read something out to you

24 very briefly, which is the description provided by certain authorities

25 about the shelling dated the 24th of December, 1992. And I'm going to

Page 17773

1 read it out to you. Could you please listen to what I'm going to read

2 out.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

4 usher, could we hand out this document to everyone.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the mere fact that the document reads

7 confidential at the top, is that any reason -- because I do not see that

8 it has got an R number, but --

9 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. There's no objection from the

10 Prosecution to it being used in this fashion.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then may the document be put on the ELMO, page 9.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, I'm going to read this document out to you. And I would

14 be grateful if you could concentrate on its contents.

15 For the 24th of December, 1992, I am going to quote the following

16 in English. [In English] "A relatively quiet day with 14 rounds incoming

17 to Presidency side and 82 rounds incoming to Serb side. Total rounds

18 recorded outgoing from Serb positions 3, from Presidency positions, 14,"

19 [Interpretation] et cetera.

20 This is the only part we are interested in. We are interested in

21 what you can remember. As far as you can remember, the sound of shots on

22 Sarajevo as a whole at that time, does this official description seem to

23 correspond more exactly to what you can remember? Have you understood my

24 question?

25 A. I've understood the question. On that day I was in Trebevic. And

Page 17774

1 whether there was noise caused by opening fire, well, I can't remember,

2 just as I can't remember the event itself. And what you have just read

3 out to me is not information that reached me. I don't know whether a

4 protest was lodged and this is probably an UNPROFOR record about what

5 happened on that day, according to what you have informed me of.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. No

7 further questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 Is there any need to put further questions on the basis of

10 what -- of questions of the Bench?

11 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's time for a break. This concludes your

14 examination, but nevertheless we'd like you to stay until after the break

15 and the Chamber would like to receive from the parties during the break

16 the whole of the document of which a part was just read out. So if the

17 parties could provide that -- one of the parties, the most -- who has this

18 document nearest by to present the whole of this document to the Chamber

19 so that we can have a look at it. If this would cause us to ask any

20 additional questions to the witness, it would be done after the break.

21 So therefore, I'd like you to return even if it would be just for

22 one or two minutes or even if it would be just to tell you that there are

23 no further questions to you after the break.

24 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

Page 17775

1 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please first escort the

3 witness into the courtroom. The Chamber will have no further questions

4 for the witness, but we'd like to tell him.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst that's occurring --


7 MR. IERACE: -- If you wish it, I can give the page references of

8 Carl Harding and Pyers Tucker for the events.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have -- of course it would certainly assist.

10 But if you would like me to read part of it, it's already in front of me.

11 If you give them, then the Defence is saved additional time to search for

12 it. So if you have got them available, please do so.

13 MR. IERACE: In relation to Pyers Tucker, military attache to

14 General Morillon, in terms of the Microsoft word transcript, it's pages

15 9923 through to 9927.

16 In relation to Carl Harding, the Papa subcommander, the page

17 references are 4375 through to 4378. Thank you.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. DP35, the Chamber has no further questions

20 for you. We are aware that you have been in this courtroom for quite some

21 time and you had to answer a lot of questions, both from the parties and

22 from the Bench. I thank you very much for coming your long way to The

23 Hague, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness out

Page 17776

1 of the courtroom.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ORIE: In respect of the documents the Chamber has just

4 asked for, in order to assist the Chamber in finding support or

5 contradiction in documentary evidence, the parties, whether it's the

6 Defence or the Prosecution - it's not of major importance - are invited to

7 produce the whole of the senior military observers end-of-month report of

8 December and of January, and in addition those pages of annex 6 to the

9 report of the committee of experts dealing with the period of the 22nd of

10 January until the 8th of -- 22nd of December, 1992 until the 8th of

11 January, 1993.

12 Then there would be no need, I take it, to tender page 9 out of

13 13, because that's part of the documents the Chamber now requires to be

14 produced by the parties.

15 Madam Registrar, apart from these documents that have not -- we

16 asked for that have not yet been numbered, I take it that the

17 parties -- or should they receive a number, a C number?

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The parties certainly when meeting one of these

20 days can decide who's going to produce them and tender them.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution is happy to do that.


23 MR. IERACE: I don't think much depends on which side tenders it

24 as long as it's --

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's in evidence.

Page 17777

1 MR. IERACE: Then we're happy to do it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's just for the Chamber, as long as we have access

3 to it. It's just for the parties as long as we have access to it and can

4 look at it.

5 Could you please assist us in respect of the other document,

6 Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D8 -- D1828, under seal, pseudonym sheet;

8 Exhibit D1829, hand-drawn diagram, Brdo Mojmilo; Exhibit D1830, map marked

9 by witness; Exhibit D1491, report SRK command dated 03/04/1993; and

10 D1491.1, English translation; D1492 under seal, report from SRK command

11 dated 15 September 1993; D1492.1 under seal, English translation; D1493,

12 report SRK command dated 11 August 1993; D1493.1, English translation;

13 D1494, report dated 23/02/1992; D1494.1, English translation; Exhibit

14 P3770 under seal, B/C/S report SRK command dated 9 April 1993; P3770.1,

15 English translation; P3771, black-and-white photocopies of photographs of

16 various weapons.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber hears no objections, these

18 documents are admitted into evidence, under seal as indicated by

19 Madam Registrar.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


22 MR. IERACE: Would it be convenient to tender those further

23 documents at this stage?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If they're there, if they're numbered. It

25 could be done -- if it would be done on Monday, that's fine as well.

Page 17778

1 I don't know whether we have the annexes to the report. We asked

2 for a relatively long period of time, 22nd of December until the 8th of

3 January, I think I said. We have until now just the beginning of January,

4 and we'd like to have it for the whole of the period, although it's even

5 if the whole bunch of documents would be ready as a whole.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respectfully suggest that that

7 date be extended to the 14th of January so as to cover the 13th, which I

8 think is the Serbian New Year. There's a relevant entry for the 13th of

9 January in the monthly report.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.


13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President, for

14 the simple reason that we never asked that this witness - and he's just

15 been released - concerning the Serbian New Year. We were asking him

16 questions about the Catholic Christmas and Serb Christmas, and as the case

17 may be, but we never had a single question referring to the 13th of

18 January. And I do not think that anybody could accept this proposal.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These documents are not introduced through a

20 witness, as you might have noticed.

21 But Mr. Ierace, before giving a decision on that, could you please

22 respond to -- is there one -- as I said, the Chamber was seeking this

23 documentary evidence in order to make it possible for the Chamber to seek

24 any support or contradiction on any -- on any testimony about this type of

25 events. Could you indicate whether there would be any mentioning of New

Page 17779

1 Year's Eve -- Orthodox New Year's Eve, the 13th, because it's not clearly

2 in my mind.

3 MR. IERACE: In the monthly report of January, which I think you

4 have a copy of --


6 MR. IERACE: -- Your Honours will see a comment that it's

7 anticipated that there may be activity -- excuse me. I'll go straight to

8 the reference. Yes. I could read out the comment or it's a matter for

9 Your Honours to read it, but it appears on page 4 under the date of the

10 13th of January.

11 But Mr. President, given your earlier invitation was -- or

12 requirement was in relation to the annexes, I assume that's the annexes to

13 the expert's report.


15 MR. IERACE: We have, in any event, the monthly report, so I think

16 that's probably sufficient -- for the 13th of January.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So there's no -- you withdraw the extension.

18 MR. IERACE: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So would then the annexes -- annex 6 should then

20 cover the period of the 22nd of December until the 8th of January.

21 If the documents are fully available, especially the annex until

22 now as we received it from the Defence a few minutes ago is not covering

23 the whole period we asked for, if the documents are fully available, we'll

24 then decide on -- there are three of the documents to be admitted into

25 evidence.

Page 17780

1 Then is the Defence ready to call its next witness? And I think

2 we still first have to discuss an application made in respect of that

3 witness. And perhaps we should then turn into closed session for that

4 reason.

5 Yes. We'll then turn in to closed session.

6 [Closed session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17781












12 Pages 17781 to 17795 redacted closed session














Page 17796

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. DP36, you are now at the beginning of your

4 testimony. And the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

5 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

6 nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by the usher.

7 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You will be first examined by counsel for the

15 Defence.

16 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP36, good morning.

20 A. Good morning.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we start the

22 examination of the witness, we shall show the witness a document and ask

23 the witness to tell us whether the information on the sheet of paper is

24 accurate.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you answer the question of Ms. Pilipovic,

Page 17797

1 whether --

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, is the information in this document accurate?

4 A. Yes. Yes, everything is accurate.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I see a face which I do not

7 know in the public gallery, and that is why I am interrupting, even if

8 this is not my custom.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have nothing against faces.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed that this is one of the legal

12 assistants of the Chamber who is attending. But I might have another

13 problem.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, I take it, then, that you -- is that acceptable?

15 We could actually return to --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I simply wanted to check

17 this. I wasn't -- I didn't want to offend anyone.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You're perfectly right, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. It's --

19 protective measures have to be taken very seriously.

20 I do, however, have another problem. I take it that while asking

21 the witness whether the information was correct or not you didn't ask him

22 to verify the number used for this witness. It was just indicated to us

23 that it was DP36, and I find a different number on the ...

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard that. Your Honour,

25 I did say -- I said that he was DP35 -- that is, 36. Perhaps there was a

Page 17798

1 mistake in interpretation.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Now again you say "36," but on the piece of paper it

3 says "34." And thus --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know what this is about.

5 I once again say that I said "34," and the general says that he also heard

6 this. This is why I don't understand what the problem is.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now for the first time in translation we hear

8 that it's 34.

9 So until now I addressed you by the wrong name, that is, DP36, and

10 I should have addressed you by DP34. I don't know whether that feels any

11 better, but --

12 Please proceed.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

14 apologise for the mistakes.

15 Your Honour, in order to obtain more detailed information about

16 witness DP34, perhaps it would be a good idea to go into closed session.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn in to private session, as we usually

18 do in this court.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17799












12 Page 17799 redacted private session














Page 17800












12 Page 17800 redacted private session














Page 17801

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.

6 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. DP34, you said that the official foundation of your brigade

9 was in September 1992 but that it also existed prior to that date; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, it did exist as a formation.

12 Q. Could you please tell us when it first came into existence of as

13 formation.

14 A. Well, as a military unit I have to be a little more specific so

15 that you can understand this -- it existed from the beginning of the war.

16 But the fact that it was called a brigade is more a psychological matter,

17 you know. There was also an operations group at the time and the brigade

18 was part of it. That's also a psychological issue, in my opinion.

19 Q. Mr. DP34, thank you. When you say that it existed as a unit but

20 that it was called a brigade and that this was a psychological matter, can

21 you tell us when it was formed as a unit.

22 A. Officially it was formed when the superior command established it

23 in official terms and stamped it, gave it a stamp.

24 Q. But as a unit --

25 A. Well, from the beginning of the war. I think that's what I said.

Page 17802

1 Q. When you say that it was formed as a unit at the beginning of the

2 war and you said that that was on the 4th of April, 1992, can you tell us

3 how this took place. How was it formed and who became part of that unit?

4 A. Well, it happened spontaneously. It was founded spontaneously,

5 and the local inhabitants became part of the unit, the local inhabitants

6 from those local areas which was within the zone of responsibility of the

7 unit.

8 Q. You say "the local inhabitants from those areas." How many such

9 local areas were there that became part of the unit?

10 A. When I say "the local areas," to be more clear these were local

11 communes which in the former system existed as social and political

12 organisations. You know, these were the local communes of Mrkovici,

13 Pionirska Dolina, the local commune of Betanija and the local commune of

14 Nahorevo.

15 Q. Can you tell us -- Mr. DP34, could you please repeat the names of

16 the local communes. You said Mrkovici, Pionirska Dolina, Betanija, and

17 Nahorevo.

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what the

20 problem is. It hasn't entered the transcript again, but we can correct

21 that later on.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It will be re-listened at at night, and it

23 certainly will appear properly by tomorrow.

24 Please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17803

1 Q. Mr. DP34, you said that that unit was formed and that the local

2 inhabitants became part of the unit. Can you tell us why the inhabitants

3 organised themselves and formed such a unit in that area.

4 A. Well, the well-known events that preceded that period, the period

5 of March and the beginning of April, during that time it's a well-known

6 fact that many dangerous things happened. Barricades had been set up

7 throughout the town. People would be stopped, searched. Cars would be

8 searched. There was physical maltreatment, et cetera. There was

9 separation along ethnic lines. You are familiar with this. And groups

10 were formed in local communes or in neighbourhoods on this basis and

11 that's how everything began.

12 Q. Bearing in mind the area that you have mentioned and where you say

13 people got together, can you tell us whether there was a specific incident

14 in that area that occurred and in a certain way put the inhabitants of

15 that area at risk. Did anything specific take place in that area?

16 A. Well, yes, in that area, and I can be more specific.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. This is all pre-indictment

18 period, and the Prosecution objects on relevance grounds.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is there any -- did you have any

20 specific incident in mind which has not been object of testimony several

21 times? Apart from relevance, we accept that the -- is of some relevance.

22 But the other issue I would like to raise is whether this part of the

23 evidence is repetitious. So if we would hear about events we heard about

24 many times and if we would hear about events on which the Prosecution

25 hardly ever cross-examined, then it might become repetitious. So please

Page 17804

1 keep this in mind and then proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But I just have

3 to say that I think I was precise. I only mentioned this area, and I

4 think that this is a witness who is now testifying about this area. He is

5 the first witness to testify about this area. That's why I put this

6 question to him.


8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. DP34, in the area you lived in, in the area of those local

10 communes of yours when the local inhabitants organised themselves in a

11 spontaneous manner, as you said, did some specific incident occur which in

12 a certain way put the inhabitants at risk and incited you to organise

13 yourselves spontaneously?

14 A. Well, because of these objections, I will mention a specific

15 example. On the 6th of April, 1992 there was a murder at the area where

16 two local communes joined, Mrkovici and Pionirska Dolina. There was a

17 murder. Perhaps the same thing happened in Sarajevo. Nedjo Dragas was

18 murdered in the Mrkovici area.

19 Q. Do you know who killed that person?

20 A. On the 6th of April, 1992 in the afternoon an attack was carried

21 out from the direction of the Panjina Kula local commune in the direction

22 of the Mrkovici local commune. And this murder took place in the course

23 of the attack. I said I would attempt to --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think the

Page 17805

1 witness was asked to slow down.


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because I can see that in the

4 English transcript part of the witness's answer does not appear with

5 regard to the ethnic composition of a village.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again ask you to slow down a bit, Mr. DP34,

7 because you're speaking rather quickly and the interpreters cannot follow

8 that.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll attempt to do so. I really

10 will.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't see anything as to the ethnic

12 composition of a village. So if you said something about that, would you

13 please repeat it.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't, but I know for sure,

15 since that is the neighbouring local commune --

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you didn't say it, it's not necessary to --

17 Please put your next question to the witness, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. DP34, you said that Nedjo Dragas was killed.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us about the ethnic composition of the inhabitants of

22 the area where he was killed.

23 A. It was exclusively Serbian before the war, before the war.

24 Q. Thank you. You said that an attack was carried out.

25 A. Yes.

Page 17806

1 Q. Against your area. You said from the Panjina Kula local commune.

2 A. Yes, from that direction.

3 Q. From that direction. Thank you. Can you tell us who carried the

4 attack out? Who carried the attack out against your local communes?

5 A. That was a military formation. I don't know whether it was the

6 Army of the Federation, as it was called later, or the Patriotic League,

7 or some police unit. It's not possible to identify this precisely, but it

8 was a formation which had the strength of a company. And it was armed.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP34, you spoke about your unit. Can you tell us

10 who the men in your unit were, those who were fit for military service.

11 A. Well, it was a very specific unit from the beginning to the end of

12 the war. Perhaps a little unusual -- this was perhaps a little unusual,

13 but it consisted of all those who were fit for military service, all those

14 who considered themselves to be fit for military service, so that means

15 those who were younger than 18 and over 60. And in addition, there was a

16 large number of women who joined the unit on a voluntary basis, but they

17 weren't conscripts, about 150 of them -- 151, I think, in fact, to be more

18 precise. That's how many women there were in the brigade.

19 Q. Mr. DP34, can you tell us whether you were armed, and if you were,

20 what kind of weapons did you have, and how did you arm yourselves?

21 A. At the beginning, we were partially armed. And as the war

22 advanced, our weapons became better and better. But when we finished

23 arming ourselves, well, that was around August 1992. At the beginning we

24 had our personal weapons, hunting weapons, weapons from the reserve police

25 forces. Some people would obtain weapons -- purchase weapons through

Page 17807

1 various channels. We got a lot of weapons from the Territorial Defence,

2 from the Faletici warehouse. An important amount of weapons came from

3 that warehouse. And later on in May and June we also received weapons

4 from the army.

5 Q. You told us that this period went up until July, which is when you

6 received better weapons -- slightly better weapons. Can you tell us -- if

7 I've understood you correctly, you gradually armed yourselves. Can you

8 tell us whether it was necessary to arm yourselves in this gradual manner

9 and whether any -- was anything happening in that area.

10 A. Well, it's not that it was necessary, but there was a lot of

11 pressure. The population was asking -- they were asking each other for

12 weapons. They were trying to find a way of obtaining weapons, of buying

13 weapons. People would give a cow for a rifle and so on.

14 Q. Witness, can you tell us what the reason was.

15 A. Well, the reason was the event, the incident that occurred. I

16 said that on the 6th the first murder occurred. And then later on there

17 were permanent attacks carried out against that area and they were very

18 intense for the first three months. Almost -- they occurred almost on a

19 daily basis. And in the course of 24 hours, there would be several such

20 attacks, you know. And during that period there were casualties. People

21 were wounded, and there were people who were killed. But that unit had

22 the greatest number of casualties in average terms in the first half of

23 1992. This is when it had the greatest number of casualties.

24 Q. You say "in the first half of 1992." You say that fighting was

25 most intense at that time, it took place on an almost daily basis, and

Page 17808

1 that's when you had the greatest number of casualties of wounded and dead.

2 Can you tell us which period that is exactly.

3 A. That is from the month of April, May, June, and July. From the

4 31st of July, there was a lull in the attacks. The number of attacks

5 diminished. But the intensity of the attacks -- as far as the intensity

6 is concerned, there were other intense attacks. But as far as the number

7 of attacks is concerned, the number diminished. So this happened most

8 frequently in those first four months.

9 Q. Before I show you a map so that you can mark that area on the map,

10 the area that you are talking about, you've mentioned intense attacks,

11 large-scale attacks. In relation to the area where your unit was located,

12 can you tell us which direction these attacks were carried out from in the

13 direction of your houses and positions.

14 A. There were frontal attacks in front of our front lines from part

15 of the municipality which was in the hands of the other side. We had the

16 northern part. So that means that the attacks came from the south, the

17 direction of the south, the direction of the town, and from the flanks,

18 but always from the direction of the town.

19 Q. During that period that you have referred to when the attacks were

20 very intense, can you tell us what sort of weapons the other side used

21 against you.

22 A. Well, on the whole, they used infantry weapons. The weapons they

23 had were similar to the ones that we had.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has part

25 of a map. And to ensure that everything is clear, we would like the

Page 17809

1 witness to mark the area he is talking about on this map.


3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the number is P1834.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I do not mind if -- but where I

5 earlier asked you to look carefully that there would be no repetitious

6 evidence, you indicated that this was the first witness to talk about this

7 area, and I understood also that this would be the first witness to talk

8 about the event that you asked him. May I remind you that we have some

9 evidence also in respect of the event you just mentioned. For example, I

10 remember that Mr. Nikolic was testifying about the attack in which

11 Nedjo Dragas was killed. So I do not mind. But where I asked you to

12 avoid repetitious evidence, you answered that it was totally new. I just

13 want to bring to your attention that that was not correct as in respect of

14 the question you then put to the witness. So would you please keep this

15 in mind. I will not interfere any more with the -- the questions --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would just

17 like to say that the gentleman whose name you mentioned was a protected

18 witness. Perhaps that should be redacted.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think he was -- oh, yes. Perhaps that's -- yes.

20 It should be redacted. I apologise, and thank you for correcting me.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to show the map

22 to the witness. Could you put it on the ELMO, please.

23 Q. Mr. DP34, if possible could you use a black felt-tip to mark the

24 area of the zone of responsibility of your unit. And later on I will put

25 some questions to you. For the sake of the transcript, could you tell us

Page 17810

1 what area this is.

2 A. It's elevation 103 including the Slatina direction, the Slatina --

3 just a minute. And then the fence of the zoo in the direction of - just a

4 minute - towards Kosevo stream, you cross the Kosevo stream at the

5 Sutjeska Film bridge and then you go along Breka - just a minute.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could perhaps the map be moved a bit on the ELMO and

7 zoomed in a bit so we can better follow what the witness actually marks.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Towards elevation 906 exclusive.

9 There was a house here, so-called Kadina Kuca, Kadina house, and that's

10 where the 1st Romanija Brigade was located. That's what it looked like.

11 Elevation 703, inclusive. Elevation 906, exclusive.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So this area, the line that you drew eastward from the word

14 "Brijeg," above the word "703," above the words Kobilja Glava, then the

15 line goes through which?

16 A. Betanija.

17 Q. Betanija. Horizontally towards feature 806.

18 A. No, not 806 but 906. Because there was a forest here and we were

19 below it. And from there the 1st Romanija Brigade took over.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I interrupt you. You just have

21 drawn my attention that Vaso Nikolic was a protected witness and I

22 apologised for it and asked you for correcting me. I now checked. I took

23 it that if you make such a comment that the basis is just as precise as

24 any comment you made on whether the event was the subject of testimony

25 before and that whatever information you give exactly on the return of

Page 17811

1 property of a witness that that is also precise and correct information.

2 It turned out not to be. So where I indicated that a redaction would be

3 made, I now have to withdraw that. Vaso Nikolic was not a protected

4 witness.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 A. May I -- I can see better here, but it is not precise 100 per

9 cent. I mean, the map is not quite accurate. But it is more or less

10 that, plus/minus 100 metres north-south, I mean.

11 Now, on the monitor I could see better some houses which were our

12 houses and which I omitted here, but I do not think it really matters.

13 That is the line.

14 Q. Mr. DP34, can you tell us how long was the line - to call it

15 that - of the front of your unit?

16 A. Well, if we measured the length of the trenches, that is, not as

17 the crow flies, it was 7 kilometres long. Of course, as the crow flies,

18 it would be shorter. But the trenches were -- zigzagged a great deal.

19 And if you straighten them out, then that is how long they would be, and

20 it is shorter as the crow flies.

21 Q. Now that you are mentioning the trenches, can you tell us when

22 were the trenches dug.

23 A. The trenches were dug as early as April. And the line as a whole

24 was established in -- the end of the May already, and all the engineering

25 works were completed by the end of June. That is, by that time the

Page 17812

1 trenches were dug, all the engineering security and everything else was

2 done. So we did it step by step. But first we simply started building

3 basic trenches.

4 Q. Witness DP34, can you tell us how far were the positions of the

5 adversary in relation to the positions of your unit? And if you can, mark

6 them with a blue dotted line -- no, sorry, black marker but dotted line.

7 A. Yeah, sure. Of course I can. So it's like this. This is the

8 first line. Can I correct this now. It could be like this. Like that.

9 Then here in this area, they were almost -- they came almost

10 together. That is, there was less than 50 metres between them here.

11 Then up here, it was like this more or less. So the separation

12 line between us and the enemy was 50 to 250 metres. In places, for

13 instance, where the area was quite open, it could be as much as 300

14 metres.

15 Q. When we talk about the positions of your unit, can you tell us and

16 can you show on this map -- but first tell us, were there troops at the

17 positions and where were they accommodated?

18 A. I didn't understand your question. Do you mean the soldiers of

19 the opposite side?

20 Q. Yours, the positions of your unit.

21 A. The soldiers were in the trenches.

22 Q. Can you tell us what was the depth of your area of -- of your

23 brigade's area of responsibility.

24 A. About 5 kilometres deep northward. From the line that I drew,

25 then northward, about 5 kilometres deep. But these are all habitable

Page 17813

1 houses. Actually, in this area there are many more houses and that is

2 where the soldiers were accommodated because there were no conventional

3 barracks. That is where they lived and then they would go -- come here to

4 the line.

5 Q. So you are telling us that the soldiers of your unit lived in

6 houses which were in the vicinity.

7 A. Yes. Yes, some of the houses were near the line and there were

8 bunkers, and that is how they served until the end of the war. I'm

9 referring to this peak here, to this peak above the former Jezero hospital

10 and here the Breka Potok -- there were streets -- sorry, houses which were

11 practically the last line of defence. And on the houses of these

12 buildings we had made several openings to be able to fire from them. And

13 the same held true of the other side.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you point at the map, would you please do it

15 at the map on the right-hand side because we cannot see what you point at

16 on the screen.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I realise that I made a

18 mistake.

19 So the lines were the closest here. You can hear it like this.

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you another thing: Would you please only

21 mark something on the map if you're specifically requested to do so. So

22 if you point at something, use the pointer, not the pen. And if someone

23 asks you to mark something on the map, then you use the pen in the colour

24 indicated. Yes? Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

Page 17814

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. DP34, before -- before you answered, I think that the end of

3 your answer was the same held true of the other side.

4 A. In this part here --

5 Q. I'm sorry. Just take it easy. When you say "on the other side,"

6 what do you mean?

7 A. Well, you can see here that there were houses here on both sides

8 and that they were nearby. You can't see it here because this is an old

9 map but there were very many houses here. And what I mean is that in this

10 part here -- in this part here that we were in houses and the adversary

11 side was also in houses. That is what I meant. Here. And over

12 here -- up here there were trenches. They had their trenches, and we had

13 our own trenches.

14 Q. When you are talking about the enemy side and when you're talking

15 about the trenches of the enemy side and the length of the front line in

16 relation to yours, can you tell us if you had any information, you

17 personally, about which unit was the enemy unit.

18 A. According to our intelligence, directly in front of the line, that

19 is, in the centre of the city, was the 105th Brigade. And on our left

20 flank we had -- that is, in front of our left flank was the 2nd, and in

21 front of the right flank, in front of Vogosca was the 15th Motorised

22 Brigade.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you could find a suitable moment

24 for a break either now or within a couple of minutes, then we'll --

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We can do it now, Mr. President,

Page 17815

1 because we've covered this area, regarding the front lines.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then adjourn until quarter to 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into

6 the courtroom.

7 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. DP34, on the map that we were looking at before the break and

10 that we were talking about, you drew the lines of your and the adversary

11 army's positions and you told us what are the units across from the

12 position of your units called.

13 Can you tell us, from September 1992 until August 1994, did those

14 lines shift? On both sides, I mean.

15 A. Yes. There were some insignificant microshifts. But generally

16 speaking, this is the line. They were very slight shifts of

17 technical -- of tactical significance on both sides.

18 Q. Can you personally tell us about this line as you drew it, that

19 is, of both sides? When was it finally established? Which month of which

20 year when this line was established such as it was and after which only

21 some tactical movements were? Can you tell us.

22 A. Well, I've already told you that. As a line, organised in this

23 form existed from the very beginning, and some three months after its

24 establishment, after its final establishment, it was fully structured -- I

25 mean, all the engineering works were completed and the moves happened in

Page 17816

1 1993. Only slight. Here in the area of Betanija and here there were some

2 insignificant shifts. And here towards feature 906, it never changed at

3 all. There is a watershed here, or rather, there is a brook here which is

4 called the Breka potok which dries up in summer but does have water in

5 winter and it was a kind of boundary. So this part, the western part, the

6 right flank of the Kosevo Brigade and this peak here, this is where the

7 shifts occurred but they were completely insignificant.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness DP34.

9 Mr. DP34, you told us that throughout the conflict - and we're

10 speaking about September 1992/August 1994 - that throughout that period of

11 time you had a commanding position in your unit.

12 A. No, that is not what I said.

13 Q. Do you have some more precise --

14 A. I said that the Kosevo Brigade existed until February, until the

15 1st of February, 1994. And you are mentioning the period of August 1994.

16 I was not the commander of the Kosevo Brigade any longer because it

17 stopped existing as the Kosevo Brigade.

18 Q. Thank you. So you held this duty until February 1994; is that so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When we talk about that period while you were the commander, can

21 you tell us if you cooperated with UNPROFOR members.

22 A. Yes. From the time when UNPROFOR forces arrived to the area of

23 responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, or more precisely the

24 Sarajevo Kosevo Brigade, we maintained contact with UNPROFOR members and

25 to my mind they were both very successful on both sides. I think UNPROFOR

Page 17817

1 members were very satisfied, and I was more than satisfied.

2 Q. In that area, in your area, did they have their observation post?

3 A. Yes, they did.

4 Q. Can you tell us, where was their observation post?

5 A. Let me say first that in the early days they had their observers

6 who came and went, and the place where they eventually stationed for a

7 longer period is the area -- just a minute. This is the area of Pretrzanj

8 where artillery was. Just a moment. It's up here. Right here. Exactly.

9 That is where they were.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point at it again because it was

11 just moved.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pretrzanj. Saracevac feature 1080

13 is north of it. So it's right here.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. DP34, will you make a circle and put number "1" there so that

16 for the transcript we could say that the area -- the word is Pretrzanj and

17 it needs to be precise. The first four letters of the word Pretrzanj, the

18 witness has circled it and put number "1" to mark the observation post of

19 the UNPROFOR and about a place that the witness says it was where

20 artillery was positioned. And according to the witness's explanation,

21 this observation post is south of feature number 1080.

22 A. Saracevac

23 Q. Mr. DP34 when you tell us that your cooperation with UNPROFOR was

24 correct and that they had their observation post, I will come back to this

25 and ask you some further questions about the cooperation that existed

Page 17818

1 between you. But before that I'd like you to answer whether you had any

2 information, whether they, that is, UNPROFOR members, keep their maps with

3 marked positions of your brigade and whether -- were you aware of that.

4 A. Yes. They had their own maps, topographic maps which looked

5 slightly different from our maps because we were using maps of the Army of

6 Yugoslavia, that is, issued by the publisher in Belgrade. And I've

7 forgotten the rest of your question.

8 Q. I think that is what I asked you.

9 Now I will show you three maps, which will be D1835. And they are

10 annexes to document number 6. Page 1278, three maps. I have them for

11 the -- I have copies for the witness and for the Chamber and for the

12 adversary's side, if I may call it that. I have enough copies, but I did

13 not copy the same format. But all these three maps are both for the

14 Chamber and for the Prosecution. D1385. Sorry, 1835. Something is wrong

15 with me today obviously.

16 Q. Mr. DP34, let's -- will you put this map on the ELMO. Can you

17 tell us if you recognise areas on this map.

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Can you tell us in the right corner of the map, at the bottom of

20 the map, what does it say?

21 A. You mean in English?

22 Q. The date.

23 A. The date, 12th of December, 1992.

24 Q. Can you take up the marker -- up the pointer, excuse me, and tell

25 us what these lines on the map mean, those black lines.

Page 17819

1 A. The black lines are the lines of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and

2 the lines of the Federation, of the Army of the Federation of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is, they show the boundary.

4 Q. Mr. DP34, so you're telling us -- can you use the pointer to point

5 at your brigade's positions.

6 A. Yes. However the scale is not particularly good. It's not very

7 precise, but it's this part, 6.

8 Q. Can you --

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you pull the map down.

10 A. Well, this is it. This is what I drew a moment ago. But this

11 scale is not good. But it's roughly it. You see where I drew it before.

12 Here it looks slightly different, but that's it.

13 Q. So let's be precise. This line indicates the positions. Is it of

14 your brigade or --

15 A. Well, I will limit myself here to the brigade, to the

16 Kosevo Brigade. So this is the area here. This is the -- to the left is

17 the 1st Romanija and to the right, on the right flank is the Vogosca

18 Brigade, over here, and other brigades in the corps.

19 Q. Mr. DP34, are you telling us that on the 12th of December, 1992

20 where we see this point 6, that the positions changed here?

21 A. On the 12th of December, 1992. No, I'm not able to give you a

22 precise answer to that. But at that time they were those shifts, as I

23 have already said. There were those tactical shifts to improve one's

24 positions, and tactical rectification of one's positions doesn't mean

25 advancement only. It also means tactical retreat for about, say, 100

Page 17820

1 metres, because perhaps then you can take up a better position, better

2 shelters from the fire from the opposite side and so on and so forth.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP34, will you please look at another map that you

4 have --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could both Defence counsel and the witness slow

6 down, because the interpreter is breaking her legs over her own words more

7 or less.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for everything, and I

9 will ask the witness to do that. And I'll do my best to slow down.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that I had already slowed

11 down. But it means I have to slow down even further. All right. I will.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Q. Mr. DP34, you have in front of you a map. Do you recognise it?

14 A. It is the same map except that it is dated 14th of February, 1992,

15 so it is some two months fresher. It's the same map, but the date is two

16 months fresher, newer. It's the same thing. And I shall repeat once

17 again the scale of the map is so unfavourable that one cannot see anything

18 with any accuracy. But that is it. On a map with a larger scale, you can

19 see better, on the first match. But yes, this is -- yes, this is now with

20 corrected lines, with corrected lines.

21 Q. I apologise, but please slow down. Have I understood you

22 correctly? Are you saying that during this period of time this line

23 changed -- this line of your brigade changed to a very insignificant

24 extent?

25 A. I'm now trying to see how I could answer your question precisely.

Page 17821

1 I said at the beginning that the line remained as such on the whole, but

2 certain trenches would move forward or backwards to the left or the right

3 and this took place in the course of 1993 and 1994 and 1995, on both

4 sides. These actions are customary ones. They are actions that are

5 customary for the company commander who decides about this in the zone of

6 responsibility of his company, and this is the case on both sides.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP34, you have another map from this set of three

8 maps in front of you. Could you please put this one here --

9 A. I think it's exactly the same as far as the northern battlefield

10 is concerned. Yes, we've already seen that. It's the same again. Let me

11 just see. The 23rd of March, 1993. Again, it shows certain movements at

12 the same place. Yes, at the beginning, as I said, there is a forest here,

13 and this is how you would advance and move backwards. So the front was

14 variable, so to speak. It was alive, in a sense.

15 Q. When you say that "it was alive in a sense," that means that in

16 that area there was fighting in the zone of, as you say, one company.

17 A. The most intense attacks were organised in this area, because the

18 area is such that even a tank can go through it, pass through it, as they

19 say in the army. So there was the danger of tanks penetrating in this

20 part. Do you understand? That's why it's like that. But on the right

21 flank tanks can't pass through the ground, so the way the defence is

22 organised there is quite different.

23 Q. Thank you. You've just said that the area where attacks were

24 launched on a daily basis was an area that could be passed through by a

25 tank. With regard to the September 1992-August 1994 period, can you tell

Page 17822

1 us what kind of weapons your brigade had at its disposal. And I'm

2 referring to both light and heavy weapons, if you had any such weapons.

3 A. The question is now quite clear to me. I wanted you to be more

4 precise, but it's clear to me now. You said from the beginning up until

5 August 1994. That's the period you're interested in.

6 Q. I asked you about September 1992-August 1994.

7 A. Yes. As I said, from February onwards the brigade wasn't in

8 existence any more. The organisation was quite different, but it did have

9 infantry weapons at its disposal. It was organised into battalions and

10 companies, and it had infantry weapons.

11 In addition, it had logistics support. It had artillery weapons.

12 Q. Did you personally have any information as to the kind of weapons

13 that the BH army had at its disposal? I'm referring to the units whose

14 positions were facing yours.

15 A. Well, we did have information, and that could be seen in direct

16 conflicts. On the whole, they had infantry weapons of the same quality,

17 of the same kind. These were weapons used by the former JNA and the

18 former police of Yugoslavia. They had firing weapons, automatic rifles,

19 semi-automatic rifle, light machine-guns, et cetera. As far as artillery

20 is concerned, the situation was the same. This is artillery that was used

21 before the conflict broke out, so guns, Howitzers, mortars, tanks,

22 self-propelled weapons, et cetera. It was the same, as far as the quality

23 is concerned.

24 Q. Could you please slow down, and I wanted to ask you to speak

25 slowly once more. You have just listed the heavy weapons the enemy had at

Page 17823

1 its disposal. In order to be more precise, could you tell us whether -

2 and I'm referring to the period I have already mentioned, September

3 1992-February 1994 - as commander of your brigade, did you have any

4 information about the positions of heavy weapons on the enemy side?

5 A. On the whole, yes, I did.

6 Q. If the Defence shows you a plan of the -- a map of the town which

7 relates to that area - perhaps it won't cover the whole area, but perhaps

8 it will - could you mark the positions of the heavy weapons that the BH

9 army had as well as your positions, the positions of your heavy weapons?

10 A. If the map is a detailed one, yes, I could do that.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document is

12 D1836. That is the map of the town.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would it take much time, do you think,

14 this marking, or could it be relatively quickly done? And do you need the

15 markings for your questions to come?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, and I don't

17 think this will take very long.

18 Q. Mr. DP34, can you mark this on the map.

19 A. I'd just like to ask you whether I can mark this with a felt-tip,

20 since Mr. President warned me about this.

21 Q. Yes. Mark it --


23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. -- With the number "1," for example.

25 A. Do you mean our positions now, the positions of our artillery, or

Page 17824

1 the positions of the enemy's artillery?

2 Q. The enemy artillery positions first.

3 A. The main artillery positions of the enemy side were in the

4 Humsko Brdo, the Humsko hill area. That's here. And I can draw that

5 here. There were mortars here, and then they had something like this and

6 then they had this, like so.

7 Q. Mr. DP34, could you move the map a bit to the right and tell us

8 what these symbols indicate.

9 A. Let's say a mortar then a cannon, a Howitzer, and then they had

10 these mobile -- these mobile guns, tractor -- caterpillar vehicles. They

11 were popularly called "tanks," but they weren't all tanks. That would be

12 it. And one of the directions of action was towards the north, in the

13 direction of the Kosevo Brigade. And here they could cover the west.

14 This is an exceptional site. This is Humsko Brdo, and from here they

15 could fire on the north and the north-west and the west. It's an

16 exceptional position.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the sake of the

18 transcript, I don't know how precise I'll be in describing these symbols,

19 but I think it would be sufficient to say that the witness marked a

20 cannon, a mortar -- a mobile mortar --

21 A. No. Not a mobile mortar, a mobile armoured vehicle. That can

22 only be a tank. But in fact it can be both a tank and a self-propelled

23 device.

24 Q. So you say a tank, a self-propelled device --

25 A. I was only mentioning one of each.

Page 17825

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I again ask you to slow down. You might not be

2 aware of the speed of your speech, but ...

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So you marked a cannon, a self-propelled piece, a Howitzer.

5 A. And a tank.

6 Q. And a tank. Can you tell us how many tanks there were, since you

7 say you only made markings for each weapon for one weapon and that you

8 personally know -- do you personally know anything about this area?

9 A. I said where the basic positions were, but there were other

10 positions in enemy territory where the existence of artillery had been

11 recorded. But these were the main positions, and this is where the

12 weapons were most concentrated.

13 Q. Thank you. Wait for just a moment. Since you said that these

14 were the main firing positions but that there were other firing positions,

15 could you mark the other firing positions on the map, the other ones used

16 by the BH army.

17 A. Well, a tank was also recorded or self-propelled piece or a tank

18 and a self-propelled piece in the tunnel here. It was observed here for

19 sure. And then in the zone of the school of architecture, action was

20 observed here too, from this area, from this zone. They were either tanks

21 or self-propelled pieces. It wasn't possible to identify this for sure.

22 But there were caterpillar vehicles which moved to one side and to the

23 other side, to the hospital that is up here, the Kosevo hospital. So this

24 is where they would manoeuvre. And the tank was there for a certain

25 period of time and then it left. It was moved, perhaps, to the other

Page 17826

1 side. I don't know.

2 Q. Mr. DP34, first of all, could you put the numbers "1," "2," and

3 "3," in these circles.

4 A. [Marks]

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, at the

6 positions identified by numbers "1," "2," and "3," the witness indicated

7 that the BH army had its firing positions there. They had heavy weapons

8 there.

9 A. I haven't finished yet. If I may. You have correctly said that

10 these were heavy weapons, but mobile guns of smaller calibres were a

11 greater problem for us. Eighty-one or 82-millimetre mortars and

12 60-millimetre mortars which were mounted on mobile vehicles were more

13 serious problems for us. These could be small mobile vehicles or little

14 lorries up to 2 tonnes and they were at various points and it was very

15 difficult to observe these things and to destroy them. That's what I

16 wanted to say.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP34, you have now marked these firing positions.

18 Can you now tell us how frequently --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the transcript, when the witness

20 said "they were at various points," he pointed at the area in the east

21 approximately starting with "3," where it reads "Kosevo hospital," up

22 slowly south to the west covering the whole area where the map reads

23 "Kosevsko Brdo."

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. DP34, you have marked the firing positions for heavy weapons

Page 17827

1 and you said that the most serious problem was caused by vehicles with

2 mortars. I think you mentioned 82-millimetre mortars.

3 A. 82 and 81-millimetre mortars. Both calibres exist, but in fact

4 it's the same kind of mortar. It has the same range and the same

5 performance.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, for the period during which you were

7 present up until February 1994, during that period how often did the BH

8 army use these heavy weapons to fire on your positions?

9 A. Very often when there was fighting, but there was also sporadic

10 fighting, fighting that would break out suddenly. There would be a lull,

11 it would be calm, and then suddenly a shell would fall, two or three

12 shells.

13 Q. Since you have marked the firing positions of the BH army, can you

14 point out to us the location in this zone where the artillery of your

15 brigade was located.

16 A. Well, you can't see it on this map, but it's to the north, from

17 here to the north. A minute ago I indicated it on the map. It's

18 Pretrzanj. That was our main firing position. But we would move our

19 firing positions too. That was recorded by UNPROFOR, and UNPROFOR

20 observed that. But the main firing position was always on Pretrzanj.

21 Q. Thank you. You say that this was recorded by UNPROFOR. And given

22 your answer, can you tell us whether there was cooperation on both sides,

23 whether there was mutual cooperation.

24 A. I suppose it was successful, this cooperation.

25 Q. While you were the commander of the brigade, did you at any time

Page 17828

1 receive protests according to which artillery was being used from your

2 positions to fire in the direction of the town?

3 A. Was I ever warned, did I ever receive a protest?

4 Q. You personally or someone in your brigade whose responsibility

5 that was.

6 A. I've understood you. No one in the Kosevo Brigade ever received

7 an official protest.

8 Q. When I say "official," I mean written or verbal.

9 A. Yes. "Official" for me means that someone -- a representative of

10 UNPROFOR comes and protests. But no, that didn't happen. And in written

11 form, no, by no means. We didn't receive any such protests.

12 Q. Since we have the map in front of us and we can see that it shows

13 the Kosevo hospital area and that we can see the Bare cemetery area on the

14 map as well as the children's hospital area, can you tell us whether at

15 any time during that period while you were the commander did you receive a

16 protest according to which you fired in the direction of the cemetery and

17 the hospital from your positions?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Can you tell us where -- and when I say "where," I mean in what

20 kind of buildings -- was your command post located and the command post of

21 subordinate units if you had any such units during that period and in what

22 buildings.

23 A. In private buildings, the buildings that were there, the command

24 of the brigade was in a private house. It was subsequently in the

25 location of Nahorevo.

Page 17829

1 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter didn't catch the first name.

2 A. I have to be very precise. As I said, the unit consisted of

3 two -- those were divided into two plus three and it had two battalions.

4 That's the form it existed in and operated in.

5 JUDGE ORIE: When you said that "the command of the brigade was in

6 a private house," you then mentioned where it first was. Could you please

7 repeat that name.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. But you can't see it on

9 the map. But if it's -- it's the Radava zone, the Radava zone. It's

10 north from here. Radava.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Just the interpreters couldn't hear you. That's

12 reason why I'm asking.

13 Please proceed.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. You told us where the command posts of your brigade and of your

16 subordinate units were located. You say that they were located in private

17 houses. Did you have any information, given that you have told us the

18 105th Brigade had positions facing yours, towards the south, can you tell

19 us whether you had any information as to the positions of the

20 105th Brigade. Where were they located, in what kind of buildings?

21 A. Information as to the buildings they were in? No, I don't know

22 that for 100 per cent, but I know that they were billeted in private

23 houses just like we were, in private buildings. The buildings that were

24 in their zone of responsibility. Those were the most suitable buildings.

25 They didn't have any traditional barracks, just like -- and similarly we

Page 17830

1 didn't have such barracks.

2 Q. Can you tell us how you were -- what sort of uniforms you wore in

3 your unit.

4 A. Well, that's a very interesting question, and that applies to the

5 other side too. At the beginning of the war, if someone had a uniform of

6 the former Yugoslavia, of the former police force, then he would don that

7 uniform. Some people had hunting uniforms. They were camouflage uniforms

8 too, and then they would put those uniforms on. The majority had civilian

9 uniforms, and then gradually the quartermaster supplies increased and we

10 had uniforms, but we never had one single type of uniform right up to the

11 very end of the war, and that applies to us and to the enemy side. That

12 is something that is certain.

13 Q. Please, could you just speak slowly. Mr. DP34, given that you

14 were the brigade commander, can you tell us whether you as brigade

15 commander issued orders to your subordinates. And if you did, what form

16 did those orders take?

17 A. Yes. I issued verbal orders -- written and verbal orders.

18 Q. Can you tell us, given the position of the zone of responsibility

19 of your brigade, whether there was an order which was in force while you

20 were the brigade commander.

21 A. What do you mean? I don't understand what you mean when you say

22 "in force." Do you mean whether it was applied, implemented?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. I have to say that this brigade - and this is my opinion - was the

25 most disciplined brigade in the corps, and I can claim for certain that

Page 17831

1 all the orders that we received from our superior commanders were

2 implemented and all the orders issued by the command to the subordinate

3 units were implemented. If they weren't, then penalties were imposed.

4 Q. When you say that you were well disciplined and that at times you

5 punished those persons who did not stand by the orders, were there such

6 cases -- what were those transgressions, if I may call them that, which

7 were punished?

8 A. Well, there were a number of such cases. One needs to admit that.

9 There were some disciplinary transgressions, and they ranged from

10 disciplinary transgressions to criminal offences and they were always

11 punished, 100 per cent.

12 Q. But more precise, what were those disciplinary breaches?

13 A. Disciplinary breaches were the disobeyance of -- disobedience

14 regarding the rule, drunkenness, lack of discipline, brawls and the like,

15 and crimes including murder, so there was also the crime of murder. I

16 think this is the severest crime.

17 Q. Now I will ask you to explain to us more precisely the murder that

18 you tell us is the severest crime of all. Did it happen in the area of

19 responsibility of your brigade?

20 A. Yes, not once but twice during my duty as the commander -- no,

21 sorry, once while I was the commander and the second one happened when I

22 wasn't the commander but it was in that same area. But both times. And

23 later on because that unit remained there and the perpetrators were

24 arrested, the perpetrator was arrested. The court procedure was

25 organised. This was done by the military police. The person was taken

Page 17832

1 under custody to Lukavica, and from what I know after the court procedure

2 he was sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

3 Q. So you told us that you thought that your brigade was well

4 disciplined, that you had it in control. And can you tell us whether in

5 the area of responsibility of your brigade at the time when you commanded

6 that brigade, whether there were some other units - when I say "other

7 units," I mean military units, army units - which were not under your

8 command? And if so, then when were they there and what was your attitude

9 to such units?

10 A. First, I want to say that it is not that I think. I affirm -- I

11 put it to you that the troops were very well disciplined. I would say

12 that they were the best disciplined of all. But that does not matter.

13 Your second question: Were there paramilitary units, if I

14 understand your drift. Yes, there were some paramilitary, parapolice

15 units -- well, groups. Yes, there were such cases. And I wish to

16 emphasise that in particular all of this from the territory of the Kosevo

17 Brigade -- that is, this matter was settled, and I think -- no, I do not

18 think. I put it to you that we were the first unit in the Sarajevo

19 Romanija Corps and perhaps -- I don't know if we were the only

20 one -- which had resolved this matter once and for all so that, say,

21 sometime as of September 1992 in the area of responsibility -- well, they

22 were never under the command because they were never the proper army but

23 in the area of responsibility of the Kosevo Brigade there wasn't a single

24 paramilitary formation nor a single former paramilitary group as of

25 September 1992. And it took us a great deal of work and effort to do

Page 17833

1 that.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, as you were answering this question -- and I

3 think you mentioned that it was the first unit in the Sarajevo Corps which

4 resolved the problem with the para-troops. Do you have any knowledge if

5 in the area of responsibility of other brigades there were also such

6 paramilitary units and whether they constituted such a problem, one of the

7 problems that you as the commander of a brigade solved with other brigade

8 commanders at the level of the corps?

9 A. It was a chronic problem, if I may put it that way. And to my

10 mind, it existed, it survived until the end of the war. It was solved in

11 part but never fully and completely. But the unit which had completely

12 settled the problem of paramilitary units and paramilitary groups, that

13 unit was the Kosevo Brigade. That is what I said. But that problem

14 continued well after that. There were some partial -- but I'm not sure

15 about other units. Of course I'm not referring to all of them I'm not

16 sure that all the units had managed to resolve the problem until the end

17 of the war.

18 Q. Mr. DP34, when you told us that you personally as the commander

19 of -- as the brigade commander carried out all the orders received from

20 your superiors, can you tell us who was your superior?

21 A. The corps commander -- no, sorry, during a period of time -- and

22 there was a rather long period of time when the commander of the tactical

23 group and then the commander -- the corps commander, were my superiors.

24 But the corps commander was my only superior during a certain period of

25 time.

Page 17834

1 Q. Mr. DP34, now that you've answered this question and you said "for

2 a while -- for a period of time the commander of the operative group and

3 target tactical group for a while." Can you be more precise and tell us,

4 between September 1992 until February 1994, were those periods of time

5 when you were under the command of the commander of either the operative

6 group or the tactical group and when was that?

7 A. During that period of time, the Kosevo Brigade was first

8 subordinated to the command of the operative group -- Vogosca operative

9 group. That is what it was called. And it was sometime in the autumn of

10 1992. I do not remember exactly the date when it ceased to exist. After

11 that --

12 Q. Sorry. Will you please go slowly. You said the Vogosca operative

13 group. Now, can you be precise and tell us from when until when, that is,

14 when were you under this Vogosca operative group?

15 A. It could be in the beginning of May and then until

16 September/October. I really do not remember. But while it was in

17 existence. I think this is precise enough. Until this operative group

18 existed, we were its part. And it is very easy to find the date when it

19 ceased to exist. I simply do not recall it. But as long as it existed.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, during that period of time which

21 units made part of this operative group?

22 A. The Vogosca operative group incorporated Rajlovac Brigade, the

23 Vogosca Brigade, and Kosevo Brigade.

24 Q. And when you spoke to us about the tactical group -- the Vogosca

25 Tactical Group, can you tell us which period of that time does that refer

Page 17835

1 to?

2 A. Well, the Vogosca Tactical Group was set up in 1993. And once

3 again, I do not remember the exact date, but I'll be more precise. From

4 its foundation to its disbanding, the Kosevo Brigade was a member of the

5 Vogosca Tactical Group. That is, as of its establishment until it

6 was -- until it stopped existing, we were part of the Vogosca Tactical

7 Group, and its composition was slightly different from that of the Vogosca

8 operative group. It was different because not all the units were in both

9 of them.

10 Q. You tell us that they did not incorporate identical units, and you

11 gave us the Rajlovac, Vogosca, and Kosevo Brigades. Can you tell us which

12 units were part of the Vogosca Tactical Group?

13 A. The Vogosca Tactical Group, in addition to the above indicated

14 units, that is, the three brigades that were incorporated there, but it

15 also incorporated parts of the Ilidza Brigade, or rather the Ilidza

16 Battalion, part of the Ilijas Brigade, that is the Semizovac Battalion,

17 and some logistic groups, that is, the units were reorganised, reformed,

18 and it was set up different, but it was those units which were already

19 incorporated in this group.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP34, now that you've explained to us the

21 structure and the composition of the Vogosca Tactical Group and told us

22 that you were subordinate to the commanders of the operations and

23 subsequently the tactical group, can you also tell us whether you -- did

24 you first -- first, did you report on the situation in the area of

25 responsibility of your brigade?

Page 17836

1 A. Why, yes.

2 Q. Did you put together reports?

3 A. Yes, reports were written, and they were then submitted to the

4 tactical group, that is, first the commander of the operative group and

5 then to the commander of the tactical group and through them to the corps

6 command. Very important information, we did not have our own codes, so

7 that we had to use the Vogosca Brigade code in the corps command, that is,

8 cables.

9 Q. Can you tell us, how often did you put together these reports and

10 submit them, whether to the commander of the regular or operative group?

11 A. We submitted regular reports as requested by the rules and when

12 necessary we also drew up extraordinary reports.

13 Q. So now you are telling us that this was one of the manners of

14 reporting in your brigade. You as a brigade commander, whilst you held

15 that post, did you also have briefings in the corps command?

16 A. Yes, we did.

17 Q. Can you tell us how often did you have those briefings in the

18 corps command and who attended them. Would you be present alone, or would

19 they be broader meetings?

20 A. Well, your question is pretty broad, but I'll try to be precise

21 once again. So yes, I attended those briefings. They were relatively

22 frequent, that is, all the briefings that were organised by the corps. So

23 not in the corps command but organised by the corps command, and it could

24 take place elsewhere, not necessarily on the corps premises. And this

25 happened once or twice a month. And those briefings were attended by

Page 17837

1 members of the corps command. As a rule, the commander or the chief of

2 staff of the corps then whilst there were the operative or tactical group,

3 the commanders of the tactical, that is, operative group, brigade

4 commanders. Then, at times, representatives of civilians, of civilian

5 organisations, representatives of the police, and that would be it. But

6 that was only now and then, I'm saying.

7 Q. Did the corps commander attend those briefings?

8 A. I've said it already. Yes, he was present there. If not, then

9 such meetings were chaired by the chief of staff.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, at those briefings at which you were

11 present, which subjects did you broach? What were the contents of those

12 briefings in the corps command?

13 A. Well, what else could it be but -- we called them "reporting."

14 That is, we submitted our reports there, the subordinate commanders in the

15 area of responsibility of the corps submitted their reports. So then we

16 would analyse the previous period and be issued -- and be assigned tasks

17 for the forthcoming period, that is, we would discuss problems in the army

18 and that is it.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it is time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are close to the time where we have to

22 adjourn. And if this would be a suitable moment, then we'll adjourn now.

23 Mr. DP34, I have to ask you to come back next Monday. We'll not

24 sit in the morning but we'll sit in the afternoon. That means that

25 we -- that we will sit on from 2.15 p.m. in another courtroom, Courtroom

Page 17838

1 I. I'd like to instruct you not to speak to anyone about the testimony

2 you have given or the testimony you are still about to give, not with

3 anyone, not with the Defence, not with the Prosecution, not with Judges if

4 you would see them during the weekend. So this is my instruction.

5 I wish everyone as good a weekend as can be, and we'll adjourn

6 until quarter past 2.00 next Monday.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm so sorry. If you will

10 excuse me. Just one thing that I need to point out.

11 In the French transcript, on page 77, lines 11 and 12 were not

12 translated. That is all. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm afraid I can't do it now right away.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] On page 77, yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Page 77, a few lines are not translated. I take it

16 that proper care will be taken when -- even if we are not working, other

17 people are working on the transcript.

18 We'll adjourn until next Monday.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

20 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

21 the 20th day of January, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.