Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17934

1 Tuesday, 21 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Is the Prosecution ready to continue the cross-examination of

10 Witness DP34?

11 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we then perhaps first have the curtains

13 pulled down. And then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness

14 into the courtroom.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone. Your

18 Honour, I just wanted to add something about the document that your

19 assistant that is provide you with. That's page 2 of document 1453. The

20 Defence has provided the interpreters with a sufficient number of copies.

21 And if a translation is necessary during the break, I can provide it

22 because I have asked for it to be translated. If this is necessary, I

23 will do so.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think if there would be a translation, then

25 at least we can have a global knowledge of what the content is.

Page 17935

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

5 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

6 Mr. Mundis, please proceed -- yes. Is there anything you'd like

7 to ...?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a request, Your Honour. I've

9 been told that these hearings are relayed to Yugoslavia, B92. I think

10 that's the name. I would once again like to request, since this voice is

11 known -- I would like to request that we go into private session when we

12 mention names, when the Prosecutor asks questions about the names of

13 people. You know what happens over there. Murders are committed of

14 high-ranking police officials, and I quite simply feel at risk.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. As you may have noticed

16 yesterday, when you asked to go into private session when you mentioned

17 names, we granted that you would give these answers in private session, of

18 course. But if names are mentioned by one of the parties, of course I

19 cannot prevent that. It's your testimony that we can take measures. But

20 perhaps we could -- the Chamber could invite the parties then whenever

21 questions are put in respect of where you could expect names of

22 higher-ranking officials to be part of the answer, that perhaps the

23 question already would be put in private session.

24 So I invited the parties also to put -- if questions are put which

25 one could expect that would result in an answer giving names, that already

Page 17936

1 that question would be put in private session as well.

2 Yes. You had some -- you wanted to ask anything else?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said high-ranking officials.

4 But no, even the names of ordinary persons. These people, the most

5 dangerous person, criminals, et cetera, that's what I was thinking of.

6 When names are mentioned, it doesn't matter whether someone has an

7 official position or had no position whatsoever. Do you understand?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Whenever there's any need,

9 please tell us and we'll give a decision. Yes, not only high-ranking

10 officials.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS DP34 [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

17 Q. Witness, good morning.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. You just mentioned that you had been told that these proceedings

20 were broadcast on B92. Do you recall when you were told this?

21 A. On Friday. On Friday, when the previous witness was here.

22 Q. Thank you. Yesterday when we broke we were discussing

23 paramilitaries. Do you know what type of arms any of the paramilitary

24 forces that were operating in the SRK area of responsibility were equipped

25 with?

Page 17937

1 A. Partially, yes. I don't know about everything, but I do know

2 something.

3 Q. What type of weapons did the paramilitaries have that you -- that

4 you are aware of?

5 A. Of the standard weapons that the army and police of the former

6 Yugoslavia had, they had some of these standard weapons, but they also had

7 certain special weapons that the police force did not have. For example,

8 Heckler rifles. Then they had several Motorolas. And this concerned some

9 of them. They had different uniforms, some kind of gloves with openings

10 here, and so on, special footwear. They had some kind of shoes which were

11 lighter than the ones that we used to wear, the former police and the

12 former army. They were of this colour more or less, brown. Those were

13 the light weapons, but they also had heavy weapons.

14 Q. Let's start with -- in an attempt to clarify, let's start with

15 standard weapons. What type of weapons would you consider to be standard

16 weapons that the army and police of the former Yugoslavia had?

17 A. Standard infantry weapon? Is that what you are thinking of?

18 Rifles, automatic rifles, semi-automatic rifle, light machine-guns, mostly

19 produced in Yugoslavia.

20 Q. You also indicated that they had certain special weapons,

21 including Heckler rifles. What is a Heckler rifle?

22 A. It's a short rifle. They also had Uzis. I've just remembered

23 that. I don't know how they obtained it. I think it's an Israeli rifle.

24 But the Heckler -- before the war started, the police started using this

25 in special units. It's shorter than the standard automatic rifle, the

Page 17938

1 M-70, for example, which was a standard weapon. I think that this weapon

2 was imported, and they started importing it before the war. They started

3 importing it from the West.

4 Q. Do you know, Witness, what calibre bullets a Heckler rifle would

5 fire?

6 A. 9-millimetre bullets.

7 Q. Do you know what calibre bullets an Uzi would fire?

8 A. No, I don't. No.

9 Q. You also just mentioned that the paramilitary forces also had

10 heavy weapons. Do you know what type of heavy weapons the paramilitary

11 forces were equipped with?

12 A. They had various types of weapons, usually guns of a smaller

13 calibre, 20-millimetre guns, then Pragas. These are mobile vehicles that

14 have 30-millimetre guns mounted on them. They then had mortars. Some of

15 them also had Pragas. I've already mentioned the Pragas, but they had

16 multiple rocket launchers. They also had some special --

17 specially-modified weapons, so to speak. Some of them perhaps had even

18 heavier weapons. But these are the weapons that they most frequently

19 had. I was also told that they had a tank, but this wasn't in the Kosevo

20 Brigade zone. There was no paramilitary unit of that kind that

21 disposed -- that had tanks in that zone.

22 Q. Witness, do you know how these paramilitary forces received their

23 ammunition for these various weapon systems?

24 A. I don't know. That surprised me too. And even today certain

25 things aren't clear to me.

Page 17939

1 Q. Other than ammunition, do you know how these paramilitary forces

2 received any other type of logistical support or supplies?

3 A. Well, it was very strange. Sometimes they even had more weapons

4 than the legal army. So sometimes they would provide the army and the

5 police with ammunition -- with these things. How they obtained it, I

6 don't know. I don't know what their source was.

7 Q. You're aware, then, of instances, Witness, in which the

8 paramilitary forces would actually be supplying the army with ammunition?

9 Is that what you're telling us?

10 A. Well, I know, for example, that some of them had weapons and they

11 would quite simply withdraw and leave those weapons and official army or

12 police force would take possession of them.

13 Q. Yesterday, Witness, you mentioned, while being shown a document,

14 weekend warriors. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes, yes. An order.

16 Q. And if I understood what you said correctly, you told us that we

17 could warriors were individuals who had, for example, leave approved for a

18 couple of days and then did not return to their unit when that leave was

19 over, and you characterised these people as weekend warriors. Is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Witness, I put to you that a weekend warrior was not someone who

23 overstayed their leave but, rather, was someone who would come to the

24 Sarajevo Romanija Corps zone of responsibility on weekends to engage in

25 combat activities and during the week would return to their homes.

Page 17940

1 A. Well, that -- what you've said is similar, but I know what I said

2 and what I am claiming. This occurred on several occasions. It wasn't

3 just in the order that you saw. Requests were made to terminate weekend

4 warring, warfare. So that had to do with people who decided themselves

5 how they would come and go. They didn't adhere to the timetables or the

6 plan that had been established by the command. That was one of the

7 problems that was mentioned on several occasions.

8 Q. So there were, in fact, individuals who would come from outside

9 the Sarajevo theatre and engage in combat activities on weekends and then

10 return to their homes or areas outside of Sarajevo during the Monday

11 through Friday work week. Is that right?

12 A. I don't think that falls within the context of this order, and

13 there weren't many such cases. And in my unit, this was not the case,

14 because the people lived there. But if there were people who lived 10 or

15 20 kilometres in the interior, then he would go for a few days and then

16 have a rest and then come again.

17 Weekend warriors are warriors who have no discipline. That would

18 be the right way to put it, because as the war continued, there were more

19 and more weekend warriors. I don't know what the date of that order is,

20 but it can't have been 1992. It could have been 1993 or 1994. Because

21 later on people became tired and they made efforts not to go to the line.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'd ask that we go into closed session

23 for a few questions, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into -- private session will do,

25 Mr. Mundis? It's just about spoken words?

Page 17941

1 MR. MUNDIS: Private session is fine.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session.

3 [Private session]

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Page 17944

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13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.


16 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the area of Kobilja Glava?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 Q. The brigade that you were assigned to was on the opposite side of

19 the front lines from Kobilja Glava; isn't that right?

20 A. The right flank -- yes, the right flank of the Kosevo Brigade had

21 in front of it Kobilja Glava, yes, over there.

22 Q. Did forces of the Kosevo Brigade ever engage targets in Kobilja

23 Glava?

24 A. On Kobilja Glava, yes, in case of attacks. If they -- if fire was

25 opened on them from that direction, they would act. And the fiercest

Page 17945

1 attacks came from that direction, from the direction of Betanija, I mean,

2 on Kosevo Brigade. The Kosevo Brigade sustained the fiercest attacks from

3 that direction, from the direction of Betanija, and that was when we

4 suffered -- when the brigades suffered the largest number of casualties.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

6 would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 3750A.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the Defence see

8 it -- oh. Will the document be on the ELMO? I didn't know how we

9 shall --

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think the document is going to be put on the ELMO,

11 Mr. --

12 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll all see what's the document about.

14 MR. MUNDIS: And if that could be zoomed out slightly, please.

15 That's fine. Thank you.

16 Q. Witness, do you recognise the photographs that are depicted on the

17 screen in front of you, P3750A?

18 A. I do. This is a religious structure, a mosque. Now that you've

19 told me that it was Kobilja Glava, then I assume it is the mosque at

20 Kobilja Glava. But from the photograph itself, I wouldn't have been able

21 to remember it.

22 Q. Witness, I put to you that the photograph that you're looking at

23 is in fact the mosque in Kobilja Glava, that that mosque was targeted

24 throughout the war, and that the minaret was brought down towards the end

25 of 1992. Do you agree with that?

Page 17946

1 A. Perhaps even earlier than that. But yes, yes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before we move on, I'd like to

5 know: When did the Prosecution show this document to the Defence? When

6 was it disclosed to us? And we do not know if it was admitted, but the

7 Defence would like to know when was this document disclosed to the

8 Defence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: When it is admitted, we'll hear from the registrar.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.


12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: The document has been admitted into evidence, so

15 there should be no problem -- the black-and-white version. And this is

16 a -- yes. The black-and-white version has been admitted into evidence,

17 and then we asked for the colour version. But the objection has been

18 withdrawn, so there's no -- please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President.


21 Q. Just so that I'm absolutely clear, Witness, the bottom photograph

22 shows the destroyed mosque and the upper photograph shows the remains of

23 the minaret. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it's quite clear. Quite clear.

25 Q. And this is the -- this is the remains of the mosque in Kobilja

Page 17947

1 Glava.

2 A. I believe so. If you say that it is, then it is. One could see

3 it from the positions of the Kosevo Brigade, and that is what it looked

4 like until the end of the war.

5 Q. So from the positions of the Kosevo Brigade, you could clearly see

6 this mosque throughout the war?

7 A. We could, yes, from some of the positions. From some points.

8 MR. MUNDIS: The exhibit can be returned to Madam Registrar.

9 Q. Witness, in early 1992, before the war broke out, the JNA

10 surrounded the city of Sarajevo with heavy artillery. Is that right?

11 A. In the area that I was in, that was not the case. That was not

12 true. No such unit turned up there, and I do say that that is true, that

13 that is so.

14 Q. Are you aware of JNA artillery units anywhere around the city of

15 Sarajevo immediately prior to the war breaking out in the spring of 1992?

16 A. The media reported that there were some army units on their move,

17 that there were some such forces. But where exactly they were deployed, I

18 do not know. I know that in the Kosevo Brigade's area, that is, in the

19 area of the municipality of Centar, they were no such assignments before

20 the war broke out.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness.

22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

23 time, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

25 Is there any need to re-examine the witness?

Page 17948

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I shall

2 be happy to do that, with pleasure.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

6 THE INTERPRETER: And could the counsel please speak into the

7 microphone.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, good morning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you were asked to speak closer the

11 microphone. I don't know whether it can be moved in your direction.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall do it

13 immediately, Mr. President. But all this technology imposes on me, but

14 let's see if I can do it the other way around. Thank you very much.

15 Q. Witness, I go back to what you said yesterday. Do you remember

16 that yesterday the Prosecution asked you something about the pillage? Do

17 you remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please elaborate on this. What was the reaction of the

20 higher echelons of the army in your organisation with regard to the

21 looting? What kind of measures were taken and so on and so forth?

22 A. Well, we were, to all intents and purposes, impotent. We were

23 powerless, at least as far as my brigade was concerned. There was no room

24 for looting. I mean, in that area, there were no particular assets worth

25 looting, but in Vogo -- there was this road from Ilidza-Rajlovac-Vogosca,

Page 17949

1 towards Pale, Sokolac, and the eastern part of Sarajevo. And I mean in

2 the beginning we took certain steps. We controlled this route, whilst

3 we -- and I'm referring also to the civilian police at that time which

4 operated in the brigade's area and which had its chief and its commander,

5 and we tried to stop it then but it was impossible. The theft of Golfs is

6 common knowledge.

7 Q. Witness, I have to stop you, but my question did not concern the

8 results but the measures that were taken, namely whether the military

9 administration took any measures. Did it try to enforce them in order to

10 stop the plunder?

11 A. Well, I've already said it. Insofar as my brigade was concerned,

12 it just so happened that its hands were the cleanest, because in its area

13 of responsibility there was nothing to steal. However, through the area

14 of responsibility passed quite a number of such people who had

15 misappropriated certain things, and the civilian police was responsible

16 for it and there were checkpoints. However, they were not strong enough

17 and they couldn't really do anything worth mentioning, especially since

18 the major part of their forces had also to be on the front line with the

19 army units. I hope I've been precise enough on this occasion.

20 Q. Thank you. I want to move on to another of your answers, namely

21 to what you said on page 53, line 20. And I'm referring to yesterday's

22 record. You said on page 6117 at line 5 the question that you were asked

23 was about sniping. At a certain point you said that to your mind those

24 were not sniping cases technically speaking. And I will quote you in

25 English. [In English] "It was the result of normal fire. It was the

Page 17950

1 result of normal fire." [Interpretation] It was the result of normal

2 fire. That is, just regular fire that was opened. What did you mean by

3 this? That is, could you tell us what would you define as "normal," as

4 "regular fire"?

5 A. I mean, from standard weapons without optical sights. That is --

6 that was a term that was adopted by both our and the other side. When a

7 man -- when a soldier is killed by a single bullet, then you're

8 automatically going to say it was a sniper. However, if it is at a

9 distance of 200 metres, then automatic rifle or any other rifle can do

10 that. So that in our brigade it says there are more than ten soldiers who

11 were killed by snipers, but that was just the kind of lingo that we used.

12 Actually, nobody can say whether it was an automatic rifle, a

13 semi-automatic rifle, carbine, or whatever throughout the area.

14 Q. I will interrupt you now. I have to interrupt you. Do you

15 know -- I will rephrase my question. Did you in your military career in

16 Sarajevo, did you come across the problem of stray bullets? Do you have

17 any experience with that?

18 A. Yes, I'm aware of the term. And there were such cases too, yes.

19 Q. And this problem of stray bullets, is it something which under

20 fighting conditions happens frequently or seldom, or what can you tell us

21 about that?

22 A. Well, it is not a common occurrence. A stray bullet is a rare

23 occurrence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps may I ask you, what is a stray bullet,

25 Mr. DP34? What is a stray bullet?

Page 17951

1 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

2 JUDGE ORIE: We do not receive interpretation in English at this

3 very moment. So could you please start again with your answer. I asked

4 you what a stray bullet is, and we didn't receive translation.

5 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. One, two, three.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll give you one example. It

7 can happen during combat or it may be a day without any fighting. And my

8 example is a quiet day. Now, somebody is hit perhaps 1 kilometre deep in

9 the territory, and according to the knowledge that we have - and I'm

10 referring to our side - a bullet could not have come normally from the

11 adversary's side, that is, he could not be targeted because he simply

12 could not see him, and then we say, "It was a stray bullet." That was a

13 bullet fired which just happened to hit a man, like lottery, you know. Or

14 it can be in combat. When it overshoots and the bullet flies over the

15 target and hits somebody there, somebody who has not been seen by the man

16 who fired that bullet. Do you understand my now?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. So a stray bullet is a bullet

18 that missed the target the shooter had in mind.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that too. Yes, that is

20 possible too. Yes, that's right.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that from the circumstances you

22 deduce whether a bullet was a stray bullet.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just remembered an instance

24 when a man -- when a civilian was killed, and that was in the area of

25 Debelja. And if you look at it, it's towards Mrkovici. Remember, that

Page 17952

1 map that we saw, so it is at the very end of my left flank of our area of

2 responsibility. And we noted that it was a stray bullet. Yes, the man

3 was a civilian. I remember it well because I went to the spot and that

4 was what the investigation showed. Now, of course how good is

5 investigation in wartime, I don't know. But this was done by the civilian

6 police because they were more qualified then we were to do that. So the

7 conclusion was a stray bullet.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How could you exclude that this person was

9 targeted, let's say, from a distance of four, five hundred metres?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I mean I didn't exclude that

11 possibility. That possibility does exist, but it is not really very

12 probable. If you could see the lay of the land there, then you would

13 realise that it is impossible to see somebody there. From the distance of

14 500 metres, one couldn't see the whole figure. Perhaps the head only.

15 But even with the best optical sights, you cannot see the head. So had he

16 just been slightly lower -- because there was a hill and he was shielded.

17 And the surface of the target was so small -- the area of the target was

18 so small that you really need a very special eye, very special sights to

19 be able to see that. So in that particular case, that was the conclusion.

20 That was the kind of conclusion that was made, and I believe that it

21 was, as likely as not, a stray bullet.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Q. And along the same vein, how many, generally speaking -- how

Page 17953

1 important is it to investigate the ground, the relief to be able to

2 establish from one case to the other whether one was dealing with an

3 accident, whether one was dealing with stray bullets, or was it more

4 likely that it was something else?

5 A. Well, that can play a role too. That is, the configuration, the

6 relief, the lay of the land.

7 Q. Thank you. You say that it does not happen often. But apart from

8 the stray bullet, when you spoke about that you told us about quiet days,

9 about days which -- on which there was little fire. And on such days

10 would you, for instance, use such days to reposition yourself, and would

11 you notice then more such cases of the stray bullets? Did you understand

12 my question?

13 A. Yes. What I said: A stray bullet happens very seldom.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. The Prosecution would

16 assert that this has gone way beyond the scope of the cross-examination

17 with respect to sniping.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness has --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So if you would please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I

21 mean with your next subject.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Q. Yesterday you were also asked a number of questions - and I'm

24 referring to page 62 - about what is termed a "standing order." You were

25 asked this question with reference to the problems concerning

Page 17954

1 systemic -- systematic defence. Do you remember that question?

2 A. I do, yes.

3 Q. And you also said yesterday that there were certain places and in

4 the trenches, against the certain walls of military facilities, that you

5 also had certain rules about the humanitarian aid, that is, the Geneva

6 Conventions, and that you had done that --

7 A. Well, not of the walls but at the entrance, yes. At the entrance

8 into the trench, yes.

9 Q. Very well. Very good. So it was -- so it was there. And why at

10 the entrance? Why at the entrance?

11 A. Because that is where you can see it best, so that when soldiers

12 get in, they can see it. It wasn't me. It was the commander who put it

13 there.

14 Q. And why was this reminder of the obligations about the human

15 rights, why was it put up on there?

16 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. Again, beyond the scope of

17 cross-examination. These questions -- this series of questions comes

18 directly from the direct examination.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the witness please

21 remove his headset in view of the time. I'd rather if he would remove

22 the --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me first ask you, Mr. -- May I first ask

24 you: Do you read or understand any English?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very, very little.

Page 17955

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Usher, could you switch the screen of

2 the witness to not the transcript.

3 And could you please take your headphones off, Mr. DP34.

4 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps if the same question could be

6 asked with respect to French.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you speak or understand any French?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand any French at

9 all.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then would you please take your headphones off.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you,

13 Mr. President. The question arises from the cross-examination in that the

14 purpose of the questions asked by the Prosecution was to find out what

15 kind of permanent order had been given to units and within what kind of

16 context. We know that one of the positions that the Prosecution has

17 adopted is that in military terms, the SRK did nothing in order to inform

18 of the provisions that are used when there are armed conflicts or

19 anything -- they didn't do anything to do for these provisions to be

20 respected either. What I want to know is when one puts up a poster in

21 very visible places, when one puts up the most essential elements that

22 have to do with armed conflicts, shouldn't this be interpreted by everyone

23 as a standing order, a permanent order stating that certain things should

24 not be done? And if this is the case, in our opinion this is an order

25 which doesn't have to be repeated on a daily basis to the officers, since

Page 17956

1 it has been put up in a visible spot.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- the purpose of the questions of the Prosecution

3 rather than to the questions. [Interpretation] Which question were you

4 thinking of?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's exact. That's

6 quite right, Mr. President. But there was an entire line of questions,

7 page 55, line 1. I could find that. And it -- these questions had to do

8 with the number or type of standing orders. And what we are saying is if

9 one order is put up, this, too, should be considered as a standing order,

10 And I wanted the witness to confirm this.

11 And by the way, the intention seems quite obvious to me.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please put his headphones on.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Witness --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the question could be rephrased. I think

16 there were four or five questions in one. So could you please --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase it,

18 Mr. President. I'll try and find the place where we stopped a minute

19 ago.

20 Q. Yes. My question is as follows: You explained to us about the

21 fact these two pages were put up at the entrance or exit from the

22 trenches. My question is: What was the purpose -- apart from the fact

23 that one should see it as clearly as possible, what was the purpose, the

24 main reason for which these two photocopies had been put up at the

25 entrance or at the exit of these military installations?

Page 17957

1 A. Well, so that the members of the army should be aware of the

2 contents.

3 Q. Did you also consider this to be a sort of standing order?

4 A. Well, yes, clearly.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would now like to move on to another

6 subject. At page 60 yesterday you mentioned situations in which you --

7 the commanders spoke about problems of authority and you mentioned

8 certain -- a certain commander who didn't want to respect a certain order

9 or who hadn't fully complied with a certain order. Do you remember this

10 situation?

11 I'll rephrase that question, Witness. Yesterday the Prosecution

12 asked you whether you were ever present at meetings where the problem of

13 non-compliance with orders was discussed or the problem of not having

14 executed orders. You said that you would discuss certain commanders who

15 didn't carry out orders or who failed to fully carry out orders. Do you

16 remember that answer?

17 A. Yes, that's what I said, but I took the question to mean whether

18 there were such cases when certain orders were not respected. That's how

19 I understood the question.

20 Q. Well, exactly. But my question is as follows: At these meetings

21 that you attended and which were attended by brigade commanders or other

22 high-ranking members of the military, can one imagine that at that level

23 one might discuss the failure to respect orders or the violation of orders

24 if this took place at the lowest level of the hierarchy, that is to say,

25 if such failure to carry out orders or to fully carry out orders could be

Page 17958

1 attributed to the troops?

2 MR. MUNDIS: I object. It was a leading question, but it's

3 been --


5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly. That's right,

6 Mr. President. I'll rephrase it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- about facts and not whether he could imagine --

8 everyone could imagine whatever.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's quite right.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, within this context - and I mean at the level of meetings

13 that took place with the chiefs of the brigades and in general at

14 Lukavica - did you ever attend a meeting where one may have discussed the

15 violation of orders at the level of the troops?

16 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. It's a leading question. It's been asked

17 and answered.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- Mr. DP34 --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase that, gladly.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us -- you've told us that

21 during these meetings you discussed sometimes that orders were not fully

22 complied with, that is, not -- that they were disobeyed but they were not

23 fully complied with. Could you tell us perhaps by giving examples whether

24 this would -- something that happened on all levels or on certain levels.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they discussed matters at a

Page 17959

1 certain level, the level of the command of the brigade corps, or perhaps

2 an independent regiment or battalion. That's the level at which

3 discussions were held.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Not on any lower level -- not compliance on lower

5 levels?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean company commanders,

7 platoon, detachment commanders, a much lower level? No, I wasn't present

8 at such meetings when such levels were discussed.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Witness, yesterday, page 70, line 10, you declared that you never

12 knew of and never received orders about targeting civilian features. Do

13 you remember making this statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would now --

16 A. Yes, I do remember that very clearly. And I would like to repeat

17 that I never received any such order.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'll now ask you a question which is purely

19 hypothetical. Let's imagine - and it's a hypothesis - that you did

20 receive an order from some military authority which you may have

21 interpreted and understood as not being a legitimate order. Would you

22 personally have executed such an order?

23 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. Calls for speculation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This kind of hypothesis how -- what would have

25 happened if... Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is not greatly assisting the Chamber in

Page 17960

1 determining what happened.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 Q. At page 7929 you spoke about the general agreement to exclude

4 arms, heavy weapons -- to exclude heavy weapons around Sarajevo. Do you

5 remember this?

6 A. [No audible response]

7 Q. My question then has to do with General Galic's participation in

8 this agreement. Do you know whether General Galic participated actively

9 in this agreement? Do you know whether he wanted this agreement to be

10 implemented? What can you tell us about this?

11 A. As corps commander I can tell you that he issued orders according

12 to which that should be implemented.

13 Q. Do you know when these orders were issued with regard to the

14 conclusion of the agreement -- the establishment of the agreement?

15 A. I can't remember the exact date. You know that there were several

16 such agreements, and on each occasion after the agreement an order was

17 issued from the main staff to the corps, from the corps to the brigades,

18 and these weapons were then withdrawn.

19 Q. Thank you. As far as your brigade is concerned and your duties,

20 to what extent was this agreement implemented?

21 A. 100 per cent. UNPROFOR was present. I've already mentioned that.

22 It was a small unit. It was easy to control.

23 Q. I know. I know. Thank you. I want to go back to the question of

24 paramilitary troops. Page 83 you said -- but before I ask you this

25 question, I'll ask you something else. Can you say -- can you tell us

Page 17961

1 since which date UNPROFOR was at your positions? Do you know? Do you

2 remember the month, the period?

3 A. I can't remember the date, but I know it was summer 1992. That's

4 when the first observers arrived. I remember that very clearly. I think

5 there was a Polish man, a Portuguese man, and there was a translator too.

6 It was early in the summer.

7 Q. Tell me, did these men remain there throughout the period? How

8 long did they remain there, these observers?

9 A. Well, the observers -- the UN observers were there continuously.

10 Not the ones I've mentioned, but observers.

11 Q. And that includes the dates the 23rd and the 24th of December,

12 1992 up until the 7th of January, 1993?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. Again, this is beyond the

14 scope of cross-examination.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution

17 asked an entire series of questions that had to do with heavy weapons and

18 the exclusion zone, and I think that the witness is free to respond if one

19 wants to know whether -- whether this exclusion zone was respected and

20 also whether there were UNPROFOR men who were there before this took

21 place, before the withdrawal of the weapons.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not a question whether the witness is free

23 to answer a question but whether you're free to put a question to the

24 witness. The subject has been touched upon very briefly. You're

25 similarly allowed to ask the question you just raised.

Page 17962

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Witness, could you briefly tell us about this. These military

3 officials, were they present during the period mentioned, 24th of

4 December, 1992, 7th of January, 1993?

5 JUDGE ORIE: You explained to me -- before doing so, could you

6 please take your headphones off for one second.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has reconsidered.

9 We'll allow the witness to answer the question, but if this would be an

10 introductory question to other events which on the basis of the dates

11 might be true, that's not a matter that has been raised in

12 cross-examination. Yes, please proceed.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Could you answer the question.

15 Witness, could you answer the question as briefly as possible;

16 that is to say, the question that has to do with the presence of the

17 military observers at the period mentioned.

18 A. I can't be precise as to the day, but during that period they were

19 present. That's for sure.

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. Witness --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I please just try to --

22 You're talking about military observers. Are you referring to

23 UNMOs or are you referring to UNPROFOR troops?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm referring to both of them.

25 They were mixed up, the UN and UNPROFOR observers. The UNPROFOR observers

Page 17963

1 were already there in the field.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we sometimes make a distinction between

3 what we call UNMOs, military observers, and UNPROFOR troops, which is not

4 exactly the same. Do you say it's the same or ...?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be precise. We consider them

6 to be the same, but I know it's not the same. But for the army they were

7 the UN forces. That's how they were viewed, as the United Nations. So

8 they were considered to be the same but in fact they weren't the same.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you answered the question in the

10 affirmative, did you refer to anything else than military observers in

11 observation posts within the zone of responsibility of your brigade, or

12 did you refer to anything else than that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was thinking of military

14 observers but also UN observers. To be quite frank, I didn't distinguish

15 between them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. You spoke yesterday about the problem of paramilitary groups.

20 That was page 83. And you also said that there were certain arrests. Do

21 you remember this?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. On whose initiative, on whose orders were these repressive and

24 punitive measures taken?

25 A. First of all, on the orders of the brigade commander, and then of

Page 17964

1 the battalion commander. In the first case, I was the one who issued the

2 order.

3 Q. Do you know whether in relation to this desire to intervene and to

4 punish there were any orders at a superior level or at superior levels?

5 And I'm still referring to the problem of paramilitaries.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. Leading.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll rephrase

9 that, Mr. President.

10 Q. Did you ever see any other orders that concerned this problem, the

11 issue of intervening in the case of paramilitary troops?

12 A. You mean in other units?

13 Q. No, I'm not thinking about other units. Perhaps other orders in

14 the structure.

15 A. Well, as far as I can remember, I said that that was a problem

16 that was discussed at regular meetings.

17 Q. Very well. Which ordinary -- which regular meetings are you

18 referring to? At what level were they held?

19 A. At the level of the corps.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

22 usher, Mr. President, I would like to place page 3 of document 1853 on the

23 ELMO. It's a document that was provided yesterday. And I'd like to draw

24 the witness's attention to the fact that I would like him to read out item

25 F. It only consists of six words.

Page 17965

1 A. "Accelerate and encourage the work of military courts."

2 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, in response to a question put to

3 you by the Prosecution about punitive measures taken by a brigade, you

4 said that there weren't any court-martials that had been established.

5 Having read this item, which says "accelerate and stir up the work of

6 military courts," what can you tell us about this matter, that is to say,

7 about the army's intention to encourage these phrasings that have to do

8 with establishing military courts? What do you know about this?

9 A. Well, first of all, this court was never established in the unit

10 that was under any command I don't know what the date of this document is.

11 When the state of war was declared in part of the territory, then military

12 courts were established.

13 Q. Thank you, witness. I would now like to move on to the question

14 of --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP34, just a clarification. You said "when the

16 state of war was declared, then military courts were established." When

17 was that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in 1995 for a brief period of

19 time. I don't know the exact date.


21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know it was established in the 3rd

22 Sarajevo, but there weren't any cases to be heard at all.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You told us yesterday that there were never taken any

24 decisions. Is that correct?

25 Yes. If there's need to confer, could it please be done in such a

Page 17966

1 way that it's beyond the -- what the witness can hear.

2 Yes. So 1995 the state of war was declared.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, your answer is applicable to your brigade, but what do

6 you know, since you said that this court wasn't established in your unit,

7 what do you know about what happened to such courts in other units, in

8 other brigades? Do you know anything about this; yes or no?

9 A. Not at the level of the brigades but at higher levels there was a

10 court in existence, but I didn't have any contact with it. I said how

11 those -- I told you how those two murders were dealt with.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. But the court in question - and I'm

13 talking about the level of the corps - was this a court-martial?

14 A. At the level of the corps, there was an entire judiciary system,

15 and that's why it could also be a military court. But I didn't have any

16 contact with it.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, merely to

18 remind the Chamber of -- that this exhibit was of the 12th of September,

19 1992, so as not to mix it up with other timings in question that were

20 asked of the witness.

21 I believe that now the time is perfect for a break, Mr. President,

22 unless you have some other ideas.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- If you would just grant me one second.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until 11.00.

Page 17967

1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

2 --- Upon resuming at 11.04 a.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for providing the translation,

4 Ms. Pilipovic.

5 The Chamber has been informed that in the presence of the witness

6 discussions took place, that could be overheard by the witness, between

7 you, General Galic, and Defence counsel. This causes -- because I have

8 drawn your attention to the fact that this is not permissible. Therefore,

9 we'll change the order. First have the witness to leave, and of course

10 that's a total waste of time. If the Defence would refrain from doing

11 that, the Chamber would not have been in a position to order that the

12 witness first should leave the courtroom.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we apologise --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Enough has been said about it.

15 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

16 The apologies are accepted but do not take away the necessity of

17 this measure, which the Chamber regrets that it has to take.

18 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, in light of what the Chamber has just

20 decided and with respect to earlier warnings to the same effect, the

21 Prosecution would respectfully request that the re-examination not be

22 allowed to continue.


24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to

25 respond to this.

Page 17968


2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you were informed, you

3 would have certainly been told that when I saw -- that when I heard that

4 General Galic needed to say whatever, I -- you should have seen that I

5 immediately approached him to say, "Let us not discuss it in the

6 courtroom." But it happens less and less often, but at times there are

7 noises which can be heard but it happens less and less often. And

8 contrary to what happens in the courtroom -- we are usually in the

9 Courtroom number III, that is -- the distance between the accused and his

10 counsel is much bigger, and therefore, he speaks out more -- he speaks out

11 louder. I have, that is true, two pairs of headsets, but I do not have

12 two pairs of ears. Therefore, he needs to speak louder.

13 If now the re-examination is prohibited for this reason, so let it

14 be done. But the Defence, of course, will object to this infringement of

15 its rights. But accusations which are based on this, if we are forbidden

16 to do that, will they do it or shall we -- should we not do it?

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will allow the Defence to continue its

19 re-examination and at the same time draws the attention both of Defence

20 counsel but also your attention, General Galic, that it is in your own

21 interest to avoid such situations, since the type of response, as the

22 Prosecution has requested -- "response," I mean the kinds of consequences

23 to be attached to what happened are not unimaginable. So therefore, it's

24 in your own interest, and certainly a way can be found to start

25 communication without speaking loud. I'm certain that the security

Page 17969

1 officer will certainly draw the attention of Defence counsel to the fact

2 that you, General Galic, might want to speak to Defence counsel. And as

3 you noticed, I always and this Chamber has always given full opportunity

4 to confer if necessary. But you're taking risks if you do it the way it

5 has been done.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could you tell us how much

7 time you'd still need approximately.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Fifteen minutes, less time. I

9 want to say that I was not perfectly interpreted in page 35, line 13 to 15

10 what I was asking the Prosecutor, in view of my intervention, but I -- I

11 see that there is absolutely no response to that.

12 However, I will now resume my examination, and thank you for your

13 decision.

14 Q. Witness --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

16 microphone.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Will you please concentrate now on a different aspect of the

20 question that interests us, and that is the photographs of a destroyed

21 mosque that you just saw which were shown to us. You responded to a

22 question that it is -- it was possible that this mosque was destroyed

23 prior to the period of the indictment.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is what I said. That is

Page 17970

1 what I said. That is exactly what I said in French, that the witness said

2 that it was possible that the mosque had been destroyed before --

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's a good reflection. Yes. Please proceed.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Q. So I'm resuming. In replying to the question by the Prosecution,

6 you said that that was quite possible and that it was quite possible that

7 this happened before the expiration of 1992. However, you did not give us

8 the date or the period. So my question is as follows: Which period do

9 you have in mind -- which period did you have in mind when you said that

10 it was quite possible that this destruction happened before the end of

11 1992?

12 A. To begin with, let me say that the mosque was not destroyed by the

13 Kosevo Brigade - that is number one - and the local population is aware of

14 that at Kobilja Glava.

15 Number two, I said that as far as my memory serves me that it was

16 still warm. So I think it must have been either early autumn or summer

17 when that happened. I cannot give you the precise date. One can see it

18 better from the positions of another brigade, but it was destroyed -- I

19 think it was either summer or early autumn 1992, and it remained in that

20 state until the end of the war.

21 Q. Thank you. When you mentioned "summer," can you be more precise?

22 Could you please give us a month or perhaps use something to trigger your

23 memory. I don't know whether -- was it the harvest time or -- I don't

24 know. If you can't do that, then it's a pity, but ...

25 A. No. No, I can't.

Page 17971












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 17971 to 17979.













Page 17980

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like us now

2 to go into private session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll go into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17981












12 Page 17981 redacted private session














Page 17982












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Page 17983












12 Page 17983 redacted private session














Page 17984












12 Page 17984 redacted private session














Page 17985

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.

24 [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting you.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Not at all. Not at all.

Page 17986

1 I'll rephrase my question -- I'll repeat my question: Do you

2 remember the date more or less when you took the decision to lay these

3 anti-personnel mines?

4 A. They were laid throughout the war period in continuity, because a

5 minefield can be disturbed. A dog or a wild animal can enter a minefield

6 and can activate a mine. And with the passage of time and because of the

7 weather, it's possible for mines to become defective. As we say, they can

8 rust. And in the course of combat activities, certain mines activated.

9 And then the minefields have to be repaired. There are plans. The

10 engineers have the plans of minefields, and they use these plans -- the

11 engineers use these plans to renovate, to update the minefield.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for your

13 answer. I don't know if you remember the order dated the 12th of

14 September [Realtime transcript read in error "December"], 1992 in which

15 there are various items and you read out paragraph 1.

16 Perhaps, Madam Registrar, you could assist us. It is document

17 1453, I think.

18 With regard to this document, I would like to draw your attention

19 to paragraph 1. You are following me. And I'm going to quote from this

20 paragraph in English: [In English] "Prepare the most persistent and

21 decisive defence on reached lines." [Interpretation] Then a few lines

22 further on it says: [In English] "With liberation and reaching the

23 important part of the town, structures in its vicinity and settlements,"

24 so on so, end of quote.

25 [Interpretation] What you understand from this order are two

Page 17987

1 different things: First of all, to ensure that defence is mounted, and

2 then to advance in order to liberate parts of the town. Is this a

3 strategic plan that was implemented through tactical plans? Were you

4 yourself charged with carrying out an attack and with liberating parts of

5 the town, and which parts, if this was the case? Could you perhaps

6 explain the reasoning behind this order.

7 A. This item in this order is totally clear to me. Here they're

8 saying that all units should ensure a most persistent and decisive defence

9 on the lines that were reached. As I have already said, that was the main

10 order that my unit had throughout the war. And then it also says that

11 certain units should attempt to move in Donji Kotorac, Hrasnica, Butmir,

12 Kolonija. This was the -- on the other side, from the northern theatre.

13 That's southern side, or rather, the south-east. That's how I understand

14 it. It's very clear. So they're not giving the entire corps the task of

15 attacking, if I have understood you correctly. It says, "The unit or the

16 units that are on the Kotorac, Hrasnica, Butmir, Sokolovic, Kolonija axis.

17 I think I'm being quite clear.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So with reference to this

19 sentence, "parts of the town," do you know which part it concerns and

20 which troops were responsible for carrying out this attack?

21 A. Well, it says which parts of the town are concerned. And the

22 units that were in that zone of responsibility had this task. As far as I

23 can see --

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But I apologise for interrupting

25 you, but after having said "Mojmilo, Stupska," these are examples. There

Page 17988

1 are others. How do you understand this?

2 A. Mojmilo, Stupska Petlja.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. And the dots, how do you

4 understand that. That means, "et cetera", doesn't it? That doesn't

5 mean -- at least not in the English version?

6 A. Well, it can be understood this way too. But Mojmilo,

7 Stupska Petlja, and what is in the brackets. And then it says, "And

8 settlements." But these are features. When you say "features," they are

9 referring to important features, perhaps to Mojmilo.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But all I want to

11 know: Am I to take it that you weren't familiar with detailed plans,

12 tactical plans for the implementation of this strategic plan, if I may

13 call it that?

14 A. This is an operative plan, in my opinion. And I wasn't familiar

15 with the details, nor were any -- nor were any of the commanders from the

16 northern or north-western battlefield familiar with this.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was this an issue that was raised

18 at your meetings within the framework of the corps command? I mean the

19 implementation.

20 A. I've understood the question. Yes, this was an issue that was

21 raised too, but more as a matter of principle. But this concerned the

22 brigade commanders on these axes -- or rather, these units. I don't know

23 how this had been imagined, but these commanders compiled specific orders

24 for certain cases. But I'm not familiar with this.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But the plan, Lukavica 93 - I

Page 17989

1 apologise if I haven't pronounced it correctly - does this mean anything

2 to you?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Is this also part of the

5 implementation of this order? What were the objectives of the Lukavica 93

6 plan?

7 A. Well, I spent a longer period of time there, and it was more

8 focussed on the outer ring there.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, there are just two matters

10 I would like to clarify. The first one has to do with the use of mortars.

11 I think that you said that you couldn't be sure or certain that the

12 shelling of the hospital near your lines was the result of a firing error.

13 Do you remember in the course of your testimony you said that a hospital

14 had been targeted. I'm talking about a hospital on your side. It was

15 about a kilometre from your lines, and it had been hit by mortar shells,

16 and you did not exclude the possibility of there being a margin of error.

17 That is your testimony, isn't it?

18 A. First of all, that hospital was less than 2 kilometres from the

19 lines. I think that that is what I said. I think I said 1 kilometre from

20 the lines, but that's not important.

21 And secondly, we didn't expand on this question yesterday. There

22 was a lot of discussion. We analysed why this was done, and there are

23 several possibilities.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But in answer to a question

25 put to you by the Defence, the Defence suggested that perhaps this

Page 17990

1 shelling was the result of an error, a firing error. And you did not

2 exclude this possibility, if I have understood you correctly.

3 A. If I remember this correctly - I don't know whether I've finished

4 with this - the direction from which the shell came was determined with

5 certainty. But whether the person who fired that shell from the

6 Federation army, whether he was targeting the hospital, this is something

7 that no one can know. But it is considered that he fired because --

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Okay. But as a member of the

9 military, a professional member of the military, do you accept that a

10 margin of error of 1.000 metres is a possibility, a margin of error of 1

11 kilometre?

12 A. No, not of 1 kilometre. That's not what I said.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But for you the

14 margin of error could be between -- could amount to what kind of distance?

15 How many metres, more or less?

16 A. Well, it depends on a number of factors. But it could be 100 or

17 200 metres. If it misses a target, an elevation, perhaps, or some high

18 feature, if it misses it, then it doesn't fall vertically. It will

19 continue its trajectory and will fall a little further on but not -- it

20 won't fly -- cover an additional distance of a kilometre, at least when a

21 mortar shell is concerned. But artillery shells can go further. They can

22 advance further. But if the margin of error is to the left or to the

23 right, the margin of error is not so great.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But I'm talk about

25 mortars. And you say, if I've understood you correctly, that a margin of

Page 17991

1 error of 100 metres or 200 metres is quite plausible.

2 A. You mean -- you're referring to the specific case?

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No. No, I'm speaking in general.

4 For you, as a member of the military.

5 A. That's possible in certain conditions, but not even such an error

6 should be made. A good marksman can be very precise. So then it might be

7 a matter of metres. But all I said was that such a margin of error is

8 also possible.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you as a member of the

10 military, if you use a mortar and given the margin of error that is

11 possible, would this restrict the usage of mortars if the targets are in

12 the vicinity of protected features, for example?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. My very

15 last question has to do with paramilitary groups. As far as you know,

16 were they structured, organised, or were they dispersed groups that didn't

17 form an organisational unit, a unit within a hierarchy of one way or

18 another?

19 A. First of all, I said that there were a number of such groups. And

20 it's very difficult to talk about how they were organised. Even today

21 this isn't clear for me. For me some of them were classical Mafia groups.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But they acted independently?

23 A. Yes. Have I understood you correctly? Do you mean were

24 they -- were they linked up? Were these groups linked to each other?

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, those groups. Were they

Page 17992

1 linked up?

2 A. Well, paramilitary group 1 and paramilitary group 2.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

4 A. Well, I don't know. It's possible that they were.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So how did you arrive at this

6 conclusion -- how do you think they were supplied? You said they had

7 weapons which were similar to the ones you had. They had the means of

8 communication. If these groups were dispersed -- you were in the field,

9 so could you tell us in more detail how they functioned?

10 A. Well, first of all, to be precise, I think that the right way of

11 putting it would be to say that their weapons were better than the ones

12 that the regular army and the regular police force had. The arms they had

13 were lighter. They were more modern. They didn't have standard weapons.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you also mentioned a tank,

15 perhaps, if I understood you correctly.

16 A. Well, I think that one of those units -- one of those formations

17 also had a tank at the beginning of the war. Later on -- I don't know

18 what happened, but that wasn't in the zone of responsibility of my

19 brigade.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you personally are not aware

21 of how they were supplied. You don't know where they obtained their

22 weapons and these means of combat.

23 A. Well, I can guess, but the heavier weapons could only have been

24 obtained through corrupt channels. Someone who had those weapons perhaps

25 exchanged the weapons for a personal vehicle. You understand? Because at

Page 17993

1 the beginning of the war, it was chaos. The situation was confused and

2 the commanders who were from the army, some of them left, left the unit,

3 left their weapons. This is an assumption, because I don't know how else

4 these weapons would have been obtained. If they had been obtained through

5 legal channels, they would have been placed under the command. No one

6 will give a tank to someone and just let him drive away. It should be

7 placed under the command of the unit that provided the tank. You

8 understand?

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But my very last

10 question: In the end, was the corps able to place these paramilitary

11 groups under its command, make them part of their structure, or did they

12 remain independent, in inverted commas, and did they act as they saw fit?

13 A. I think -- or rather, I'm claiming that the corps command and the

14 brigade command in whose zone such units were located and higher commands

15 than the corps commands and the state organs, the legal state organs, they

16 were always attempting to solve this matter. But it was very difficult to

17 do for the simple reason that you had to have special forces to solve this

18 problem. There would have been a conflict within the zone of

19 responsibility.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Am I to understand that what you

21 are saying is that in the zone of responsibility of the Romanija Corps

22 these groups always existed and the corps was not able to assimilate them,

23 to place them under their command? They existed -- they were there until

24 the summer of 1994. Do you agree with that conclusion?

25 A. I've understood you, Your Honour. But this is an example which

Page 17994

1 the prosecutor provided with regard to one of the paramilitary groups when

2 he put a question to me. For example I thought that group had been placed

3 under his command, according to the information I've been provided with.

4 But I understand the Prosecution does not agree with this. So if the

5 group remained as a group and placed itself under the command of the

6 corps, the brigade, or some battalion, or the main staff, in my opinion,

7 that no longer traditional paramilitary formation. But if it acts and is

8 under no one's command, then it's a paramilitary formation. They are

9 acting independently. You don't know under whose command they are. One

10 doesn't know how they obtained weapons, food, ammunition. One doesn't

11 know what their tasks are or what the reason for the existence of such

12 groups is. In such a case this group is a real paramilitary group. Their

13 task is to spread confusion, to loot, to act in a corrupt manner, et

14 cetera, et cetera. I don't know if I've been clear.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

16 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. President, just for the sake of the

18 transcript.


20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Page 44, line 12, it should read "September

21 12th, 1992," not "December."

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I also -- that's my recollection

23 that I understood September.

24 Mr. DP34, I've got a few questions for you as well. I would like

25 to seek some clarifications. You told us that the cemetery -- the Kosevo

Page 17995

1 cemetery was not used any more, and you referred to a cemetery in Bare

2 that instead would be used. Do you remember that?

3 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When did the Kosevo cemetery stop to function?

5 From when on was it not used any more?

6 A. I know the cemetery -- there was the Kosevo cemetery and there

7 were three cemeteries that I mentioned. They stopped using it, well,

8 perhaps 10 or 15 years before the war, at least, or maybe 20 years before

9 the war. And then the big Bare cemetery was opened. The cemetery

10 remained, but it wasn't active. In fact, all three cemeteries were closed

11 because they made a central cemetery called Bare, and that's where the

12 funerals were organised.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Was Bare more to the east from Kosevo or more to the

14 west, north, or south?

15 A. From Kosevo, it's to the north-west. It's north-west of Kosevo.

16 It's from the -- it's on the road that leads from Sarajevo to Vogosca.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could perhaps the map 1834, I think it is,

18 Defence exhibit, be shown to the witness.

19 Could you indicate whether the Bare hospital appears on this map.

20 A. Yes, it can be seen quite clearly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand your answer well -- if perhaps

22 you could point at it on the ELMO.

23 A. Here it is. It says "61," and then "Bare" above the figure. It's

24 a big complex. It's here.


Page 17996

1 A. You have the number "61," and above the number 61 it says "Bare."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At what distance would that be approximately

3 from the Kosevo hospital?

4 A. From the Kosevo hospital? Just a minute. Well, perhaps a

5 kilometre and a half. A kilometre and a half.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You said that cemeteries were of no -- were of no

7 military interest to you.

8 A. They weren't. And in the Bare cemetery, perhaps a soldier or two

9 could be registered, not more than that. But it was held by the

10 Federation army.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I -- you said that the Kosevo cemetery was

12 not used any more since the -- already from a moment prior to the war.

13 Was it not being used during the war?

14 A. According to the information we had, it was. As far as I know,

15 the Catholic and Orthodox cemetery and the Lav cemetery, that is, the

16 atheist or Partisan cemetery, as it was called, they were all used.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So during the war the cemeteries were used, not only

18 the Bare cemetery.

19 A. The Bare cemetery was not used during the war; I am sure of that.

20 I -- as far as I know, there were no burials there, but people were buried

21 in those other cemeteries and elsewhere too.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next question would be the following: You

23 told us that during the meetings your attention was drawn to the

24 prohibition of firing at civilians because the damage to your image in the

25 eyes of the International Community would be caused by that. What was

Page 17997

1 your image in the eyes of the International Community in respect of firing

2 at civilians? Whether right or wrong. I'm not talking about whether it

3 was right or wrong, but what was the image, according to your knowledge?

4 A. I must check if I understood your question. I understand that you

5 asked me what reputation did I enjoy with the International Community.

6 That is how I got it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Not you yourself. But when it was discussed that the

8 opening of firing at civilians would be prosecuted because such behaviour

9 would cause a lot of damage to your image in the eyes of the International

10 Community- not your personal image, but I take it you referred to the

11 image of your armed forces- could you tell us what, according to your

12 knowledge, the image of your armed forces was in the eyes of the

13 International Community.

14 A. Well, that is a higher level, not accessible to me. I know there

15 were problems from the media. I know that both politically and militarily

16 there were problems of this kind. I know that. But --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Problems of what kind? You said "problems of this

18 kind."

19 A. I mean the image, the reputation. That is what you asked me

20 about.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me be perhaps even more clear. According to your

22 knowledge, was the image- I'm not saying right or wrong- was the image

23 that your forces would shoot at civilians?

24 A. I have to make a reservation here. The most competent answer to

25 this could be given by the observers and UNPROFOR men who were there. And

Page 17998

1 when talking with them in the area where I was, my impression was that

2 there were not any major problems. However --

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- You told us that because of the image in the

4 International Community, you got certain instructions, instructions in

5 respect of shooting at civilians. What, according to your knowledge,

6 whether it was your brigade or anything else, whether true or not true --

7 what were you told or what did you know was the image of your armed forces

8 in the eyes of the International Community that needed attention?

9 A. I think that this is how I put it, and I will repeat it: We were

10 being cautioned not to open fire, not only against civilians but civilian

11 facilities as well, not to open indiscriminate fire because it contributed

12 to a bad image with the International Community, which is quite natural,

13 and I agree with that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But could you tell us what in your perception

15 or in the perception of those with whom you discussed this this image

16 was.

17 Let me put the question a different way to you: Shooting at

18 civilians, firing at civilians, if you want to prevent that to happen, you

19 could just give an order to say "Don't fire at civilians." But you added

20 in your answer that special attention was drawn to the fact that this

21 would cause a lot of damage to your image in the eyes of the International

22 Community. So what I'm trying to find out is what your perception- you

23 and those with whom you discussed this- what your perception was about

24 your image in the eyes of the International Community.

25 A. Well, it varied from one stage to the other and from one period to

Page 17999

1 the other. For a while we thought that we enjoyed a good image and that

2 the army as such- that is what we are talking about- and then later on

3 it came into question. This question goes beyond my level, my rank -- my

4 ranking in the armed forces. I think you would agree with me. I mean,

5 these are things that should be assessed by people at a level higher even

6 than a corps.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said the image changed from good to more

8 problematic. In what respect? Were you considered to be a coward army or

9 a -- what changed?

10 A. Mr. President, you are really asking me questions which are well

11 beyond my competence. I really do not know how to do it. Perhaps I said

12 something a while ago but a little different and then you understood me

13 wrong. It does not mean that the fame we enjoyed was first good then

14 bad. I think it sort of went up and down, up and down. That is -- there

15 were so many political negotiations and military negotiations at high

16 levels, of course I had no access to them. When commanders of the main

17 staffs met, corps commands met, and I am simply telling you that that was

18 well beyond my horizontal.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say "ups and downs," what would be up

20 and what would be down? I'm just trying to find out what you considered

21 to worsen your image, your reputation, and what would be a better

22 reputation.

23 A. Well, we could draw conclusions mostly through the media. That

24 was the chief source. We followed the media. So at times one gained the

25 impression that an agreement would be reached at the highest level and

Page 18000

1 that peace would come finally, and then it falls through and it starts all

2 over again, and it confused foot soldiers and lower-ranking officers. What

3 role could I play in those spheres which were loftier political spheres.

4 All I could do in my area was comply with the customs of war or, rather,

5 Geneva Conventions. And that was the end of it. All the rest belonged in

6 the higher political spheres.

7 JUDGE ORIE: When you say that you learned these things from the

8 media, what media did you have in mind?

9 A. The accessible media. Well, television and radio.

10 JUDGE ORIE: What television could you receive?

11 A. We received -- well, to begin with, none when there was no

12 electricity. But then we could watch the television of the

13 Republika Srpska and television of the Federation, and we watched them

14 both.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what would they say? You say you learned

16 about it from the media. What would they say, since -- you're talking

17 about your reputation. In what way did you find out that your reputation

18 became worse or better?

19 A. Well, one can conclude that from the unfolding of the events.

20 There was a propaganda war, if I may call it that. If you watched the

21 news of the Federation and the news in Republika Srpska, you would get two

22 different sets of news or, rather, two different commentaries or

23 perceptions of the situation. Of course.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would shooting at civilians be a part of that media

25 war as well, your armed forces being blamed for shooting at civilians?

Page 18001

1 A. Well, yes, that happened. We heard such news. And on the other

2 hand, our news said that that was not true and vice versa, and vice versa.

3 We had a conventional media war.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you have spoken about your image in the

5 eyes of the International Community, did you fear that such reports on

6 firing at civilians would harm your image?

7 A. Not that I was fearing it. I was more than aware of it. Of

8 course destruction of civilian targets or firing at civilians, of course,

9 would sully our image with the International Community, yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would that also have been one of the reasons why you

11 got the instructions certainly not to fire at civilians, because this

12 would damage your image?

13 A. Yes, I definitely think that that was one of the reasons; perhaps

14 the main reason.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Were you explained during these meetings that this

16 was one of the issues involved, why you got instructions definitely not to

17 fire at civilians?

18 A. Well, I've just said. It was said orally in the corps and

19 repeatedly said that it would tarnish the image and reputation of the army

20 and the society as such. That is, not only the military but the whole

21 people.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And were -- would you know which of the media was

23 telling the truth? You said you could see the Federation television. You

24 could see the Republika Srpska television. How did you know beyond your

25 zone of responsibility which of the media was telling the truth, if any of

Page 18002

1 them?

2 A. Well, I believe you already answered with the end of your

3 question. I don't think that either side spoke the truth. I really think

4 that. Or rather, that they -- that there were exaggerations on both

5 sides. And only somebody who was neutral could supply an

6 objective -- could supply objective coverage. But that was not accessible

7 to us. Perhaps some television station in Europe or something.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you discuss among each other how to

9 contradict if not true any of these media reports, specifically on

10 sniping?

11 A. In my area,- and I have already said that,- there was no sniper

12 activity either on our side or from the other side. There wasn't really.

13 If there was any, it was negligible, far from what happened in other parts

14 of the city, where the conditions were different.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But did you ever discuss - I'm talking about

16 the meetings - also when it was not about your zone of responsibility, how

17 to deal with these allegations on both sides?

18 A. As regards the sniping, there was very little discussion about

19 it. And as a problem, at the corps level -- I mean, that problem was much

20 less discussed than, for instance, what I have said already about the

21 targeting of civilian objectives with artillery fire and such like. But

22 there were objections and protests from our side that the other side was

23 engaged in sniping in some areas, so Grbavica, Dobrinja, and - just a

24 moment - Nedzarici, yes. Nedzarici. Those local commanders reported that

25 that was how it happened there. And those were areas where it was

Page 18003

1 possible, where it was possible to engage in that kind of activity.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I have another question for you: You told

3 us today that you -- that the court in which the two persons suspected of

4 murder were tried, that that could have been a military court. Since you

5 had no contact with those courts, you said it could have been a military

6 court. Do you remember that? If you would like me to read that part of

7 your testimony, I'd be glad to do so.

8 A. With all due respect, I don't think that those were my words. But

9 I said -- can say exactly. In the first case, it wasn't a military court.

10 I think I said it two days ago -- when was it? When I started. It was in

11 the very early days of the war, so that there was no such court.

12 And the second case I think was also dealt with by a civilian

13 court, but it was the military authorities which started a protest -- or

14 started the procedure, or rather, the investigation was conducted by the

15 military authorities, but I think that the court itself was a civilian

16 court and they were in civilian prisons, both of them.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted to have a clarification of what

18 you say today and what you said yesterday. You said they were tried in a

19 civil court. And yesterday you explained that by saying in the area - and

20 you referred both to the brigade and to the corps level - that when there

21 was no state of war yet declared, that there were no military courts and

22 there was no court-martial functioning. Is that a correct understanding

23 of your testimony?

24 A. Absolutely, yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I have no further questions for you. I

Page 18004

1 don't know whether the parties have any additional question, related to

2 questions from the Bench.

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

7 microphone or come closer to it.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I'm talking about September 1992 and the order. There was one

10 important matter, and that was a question which was asked of you by

11 Judge El Mahdi. Can you tell us, were places such as those mentioned in

12 brackets such as Mojmilo appear as places which are important?

13 A. Are you asking me? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I

14 thought you were about to add something.

15 Mojmilo was very important because it was a major fire point which

16 faced the corps command. That is, it could -- it was a menace to the

17 corps command and localities there, and that was why it was important.

18 Q. And what can you tell us about the second one of these places, I

19 mean, Stupska Petlja?

20 A. Stupska Petlja, I do not know what the commander meant when he

21 issued that order.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now I'd like you -- and this is the same

23 series of questions -- and I'd like to ask you about Butmir, which is also

24 mentioned or Hrasnica, Sokolovic. What do you know? How important were

25 they?

Page 18005

1 A. These are not -- I did not speak about features. It may be an

2 interpretation problem. I am talking about places or localities. I said,

3 and I repeat, that it is at the other end of the city, on the completely

4 other side, and that I knew very little about that area. And anything

5 that I said -- that would not go beyond assumption.

6 Q. Very well. Also following up on questions asked by His Honour

7 Judge El Mahdi. You were asked about mines, their type, their laying, and

8 so on and so forth. Now, the question is as follows: Would you define as

9 a mine what we are talking about as an offensive or a defensive weapon?

10 What would you say a mine is?

11 A. It is exclusively a defensive weapon, a conventional weapon. It

12 is in all armies like that and we learn it at school. You cannot throw a

13 mine and then advance. If you are to advance, you have to first remove

14 the mines from a minefield.

15 Q. Thank you. I go back now to another question which Judge El Mahdi

16 asked you, and that had to do with the hospital and firing errors. Your

17 answer was that an error of 100 to 200 metres was technically possible.

18 And my question is: Does your answer apply to all calibres, or does it

19 hold true of only some calibres? Perhaps some other calibres can have a

20 bigger error, some smaller, and so on and so forth.

21 A. I believe I have already said that. It varies with the weapon.

22 For instance, a gun, if it misses, that projectile can overreach 10

23 kilometres. It depends on the ground.

24 Q. Witness, we are talking about mortars, and we know that generally

25 speaking there are three calibres, 62, 81 - 82, and 120. These are the

Page 18006

1 three chief calibres that we are interested in. Now, what are the margins

2 of error? Do they vary depending on the calibre of mortar?

3 A. Yes, I am sure it can vary. Although, I must say that I am not an

4 artillery man. I am not a gunner, so -- but, yes, it is possible.

5 Q. Thank you. We spoke about paramilitaries. Now, my additional

6 question arising from the questions asked by the Chamber: Do you know if

7 the adversary forces also had paramilitary forces and analogous problems?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Objection.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's a new subject.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I completely agree. I

11 couldn't agree more. I withdraw my question.

12 Q. And now I am talking about APCs, about armoured vehicle, about

13 tanks. You spoke to us about a tank which operated freely and which

14 belonged to a paramilitary unit. Do you remember that?

15 A. I do, yes. I did not see it with my own eye, but I remember it.

16 Q. Thank you. My first question -- and you just told us you never

17 saw it. My second question is as follows: This tank, as something of a

18 free-lancer -- not part of the complete integrated military structure --

19 did this tank exist and operate when it was integrated and when General

20 Galic took over the command? That is, as of September 1992.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. I may be incorrect, but I

23 don't believe this arose from a question posed by one of Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please indicate where it arises from

25 one of our questions.

Page 18007

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems to

2 me -- it seems to me that a question by Judge El Mahdi to this witness

3 indicates -- no. No, it was like this: I believe that Judge El Mahdi

4 said himself, and I believe that you spoke about a tank which was held by

5 paramilitaries. I believe there was a question which was phrased more or

6 less like that and the witness obviously followed up and gave his answer.

7 I can check it, but I believe that that is how the question was asked and

8 then answered.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... As far as I

10 remember, the witness once mentioned the word "tank" at the very end of a

11 an answer to a question of Judge El Mahdi, which was the following

12 question: "But you personally were not aware of how they were supplied.

13 You don't know where they obtained their weapons and these means of

14 combat." So the question was about how -- and then part of the answer I'm

15 referring to is that -- the last part of the answer is: "No one will give

16 a tank to someone and just let him drive away. It should be placed under

17 the command of the unit that provided the tank. You understand?" That

18 was, as far as I can see, the only way this issue was raised.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's what I said.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So I don't think that there was a specific question

21 as to tanks.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll repeat

23 what I said. I think I remember Judge El Mahdi saying the following, and

24 I think that I heard you say that there was a tank in the hands of the

25 paramilitary groups and a question was asked about this. I'll try and

Page 18008

1 find the place.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President.


4 MR. MUNDIS: If I can --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to find it. If you could assist me,

6 please.

7 MR. MUNDIS: If I could assist, Mr. President, page 50, line 13 on

8 my transcript.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've found it now. It reads: "But you also

10 mentioned a tank, perhaps if I understood you correctly." And that's ...

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. That's the part that I

12 was referring to, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can put a question -- we have now found the

14 source. You can put a question in relation to that question and the

15 answer to that question.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You answered the question that Judge El Mahdi put to you, you

18 don't really know what happened because it was outside your zone of

19 responsibility. Nevertheless, do you know whether this tank remained or

20 was ever active there during the period that General Galic was in command?

21 A. I don't know about that. I can't know.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, look at the clock. Would it be

23 possible to conclude in -- shortly, or otherwise we'll have a break. You

24 took already quite some time in re-examination. How much time would you

25 still need?

Page 18009

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have another four questions,

2 I think, but that could be quite quick -- three questions. But we could

3 have a break and continue later.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Since there

5 might be no further questions, we could expect you to finish in a couple

6 of minutes. And I ask the cooperation of the interpreters and technicians

7 to stand as long as the tape goes. So we are limited by the tape.

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

10 other issue concerns the media.

11 Q. Witness, apart from the Serbian language, which other languages

12 can you understand perfectly well?

13 A. I only understand the Serbian or, rather, Serbo-Croat perfectly

14 well. This is the language I learned at school.

15 Q. Very well. Witness, am I to infer that you yourself had no access

16 to French, German, or English press?

17 A. In the course of the war, the press -- our own press that was

18 published in the territory of the --

19 Q. That wasn't my question. I'm talking about the foreign press.

20 Did you have access to it; yes or no?

21 A. Which period are you talking about?

22 Q. Throughout the wartime period.

23 A. I've already answered that question. No.

24 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the causes of the negative image,

25 the negative impression left by your army and presented in the

Page 18010

1 international media, and you were asked certain questions about being

2 afraid of this image with regard to the targeting of civilians. My

3 question has to do with the following: What was the main reason in your

4 opinion for not targeting civilians? What was the main reason for not

5 firing on civilians?

6 A. Well, first of all, it was never necessary. It would be absurd.

7 It has no military effect. It only has a quota effect but no military

8 objective is attained like this. It only -- it can only cause the enemy

9 side to take revenge. That's quite clear to me.

10 Q. You said "firstly." What about the second reason?

11 A. What did you -- what else did you ask?

12 Q. You said "firstly." I don't know if there is a secondly.

13 A. Well, secondly, I never received any such orders, if I have

14 understood your question correctly. There was no reason.

15 Q. Witness, I'm going to interrupt you. I would appreciate it if you

16 could concentrate on the question. What was the main reason, the primary

17 reason, if you know the answer, for not opening fire on civilians?

18 A. Well, the primary reason was humanitarian.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

20 Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. DP34, this concludes your testimony in this

22 court. You've spent a lot of time here. You've answered a lot of

23 questions, both of the parties and quite some questions of the Bench. I

24 thank you for coming to The Hague, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank you, and

Page 18011

1 I wish you all the best.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 We'll adjourn until 1.00.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The documents, I'd prefer to deal with them at a

8 later stage since -- otherwise, we would have to pull the curtains up

9 first, and we could do that in due course.

10 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: I apologise, Your Honour. I just need to know

12 what the last number will be for the document that I will be showing the

13 witness for whom protective measures have been taken. I think it's number

14 1836. I'd just like to check that.

15 Thank you, and I apologise.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please ...

17 THE REGISTRAR: The next number will be D1837.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then first turn into closed session before we

19 start examining the next witness.

20 [Closed session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18012












12 Page 18012 redacted closed session














Page 18013

1 [Open session]

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP36, can you hear me in a language you

4 understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, Mr.

7 DP36 -- and that's how we will call you, because protective measures have

8 been granted in respect of you. That means that we'll not use your own

9 name and that your face cannot be seen by the outside world. Before

10 giving testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

11 require you to make a solemn declaration. The text has been handed out to

12 you by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. DP36.

18 Mr. Usher, the curtains may be pulled up again.

19 Mr. DP36, you'll first be examined by counsel for the Defence.

20 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP36, good day.

24 A. Good day.

25 Q. Before I start asking you a series of questions, I will show you a

Page 18014

1 document. And could you confirm whether the details are correct.

2 A. The details are correct.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP36.

4 A. You're welcome.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask

6 some questions about Mr. DP36 himself. So could we go into private

7 session while the witness is answering these questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even when you ask them.

9 We'll turn into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18015

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session.

8 Please proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. DP36, you said that you retired in the year 2000. We'll be

11 talking about the 1992, 1993, 1994 period. My first question is: Where

12 were you in 1992?

13 A. In 1992 I was in the military historical institute in Belgrade.

14 In 1992 I was working in the military historical institute in Belgrade. I

15 was working there as a researcher.

16 Q. Yes, thank you. Mr. DP36, tell us, according to you, when did the

17 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina break out?

18 A. I followed the events very closely, and I went to Sarajevo for the

19 weekend on several occasions because my family went to Sarajevo from

20 Split -- or rather, to Ilidza. So even in 1991 I noticed that there were

21 people walking around the town with military equipment. They were wearing

22 berets, et cetera. And in 1992, as early as February and March, war

23 seemed inevitable.

24 Q. When you say that in February and March war was inevitable, can

25 you tell us whether you noticed this when you went to visit your family in

Page 18016

1 Sarajevo -- did you notice this in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes. Well, my wife and son were there. My daughter remained in

3 Split because she married a Croat. Even at that time I encountered

4 barricades somewhere around the beginning of March when I was returning to

5 Belgrade from Ilidza I stopped at Sirokaca. And the police force -- I

6 suppose they were the reserve police forces, the MUP, they tried to search

7 me. I said I was a member of the military and that only the military

8 police could search me, and I passed through without any problems then.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, can you tell us when did the war in Sarajevo

10 break out?

11 A. According to what I could see in the daily press and on the

12 television, the war started at the beginning of April, the 4th, the 5th,

13 and the 6th of April, et cetera.

14 Q. In 1992 from the month of April onwards, can you tell us where you

15 lived.

16 A. A minute ago I said that I had -- I worked in the military

17 historical institute in a building where the personnel department of the

18 former JNA is located. Since there was the threat of war and serious

19 incidents and conflicts had broken out, I reported to the personnel

20 department and asked them to transfer me to another army in order to be

21 close to my family. They wrote an order, and with that order on the 22nd

22 of April I went to another army district, to the 2nd army district. I

23 used a helicopter to get there. I arrived in Pale on the 22nd, late in

24 the evening, and I went to the commission centre in the Turist Biro Hotel.

25 That was the forward command post.

Page 18017

1 Q. Mr. DP36, thank you. On the basis of what you have just told us,

2 can I then interpret it as your decision to come and live in Sarajevo.

3 A. I didn't go to live in Sarajevo. I was a professional military

4 man, but I wanted to do it regularly with the order and my re-posting to

5 be as a disposal of the 2nd army district as long as it existed. And

6 besides, I would also be in the area where I was born, because I don't

7 think it would be particularly ethical if anything happened there to have

8 my family there and me to be far away from that.

9 Q. Mr. DP36, can you tell us precisely, between 1992 - that is, we

10 shall be talking as of April 1992, when you say you came to that

11 area - until December 1994 -- until autumn 1994, that is, we're interested

12 in the early days of August 1994, did you live in the territory of the

13 city of Sarajevo? And when I say"live," I mean were you in service? And

14 if yes, when?

15 A. Well, I came with that order to the 2nd army district. But

16 because of the war and the interruption of communications, that is,

17 asphalt roads were cut off, I could not get off in Lukavica.

18 Q. Mr. DP36, I'm sorry. Can you just tell us briefly what was the

19 period of time that you lived there.

20 A. Well, in Pale I was from the 22nd of April until the 30th of

21 April, when I was ordered to report to the 2nd army district, and the only

22 road I could take to Lukavica was very poor, via Tvrdimic. It was a

23 forest path, a dirt track that would take you two hours to get there.

24 Q. DP36, I apologise. And I will interrupt you once again

25 because -- simply because I want you to tell us something that is relevant

Page 18018

1 for the -- for future questions. If you were in area of Sarajevo, it was

2 from what date until what date? Can you give us the details.

3 A. From the 22nd of April until the 22nd of June, 1992. That was

4 when I was in the area of the Sarajevo district. On the 30th, I went down

5 to Lukavica, was authorised by General --

6 Q. Witness DP36, now when you told us that between the 22nd of April

7 until the 22nd of June, 1992, am I to take it that it was only then when

8 you were there? That is what -- I asked you about the period until August

9 1994.

10 A. On the 22nd of June, 1992 I went back to Belgrade, and then on the

11 1st of April, once again, I arrived in the territory of Sarajevo and I

12 stayed there until August 1994. In other words, from the 1st of April,

13 1993 until August 1994, the 1st of August, 1994.

14 Q. Thank you. So let us try to sum up. Mr. DP36, in the territory

15 of the city of Sarajevo, you were from the 22nd of April until the 22nd of

16 June, 1992, and then after that you returned, and from the 1st of April,

17 1993 until August 1994 you remained in that territory.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, in view of the time that you spent there, I

20 will ask you a few questions concerning the period when you were there

21 between the 22nd of April until the 22nd of June. Did you at that time

22 hold a certain duty in the 2nd army district? And if so, where?

23 A. I arrived in the command of the 2nd army district on the 1st of

24 May, in the afternoon, and I went to the department for morale and

25 information. That was the command at Bistrik. And I stayed there until

Page 18019

1 the 3rd of May in the afternoon, again, when there was the attack on

2 Dobrovoljacka Street, when I was captured.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP36, may I ask you to carefully listen to the

4 questions and to answer to what counsel asks you. If any further details

5 are needed, they will certainly ask you. The question was: Did you at

6 that time - and we're talking between the 22nd of April and the 22nd of

7 June - whether you hold a certain duty in the 2nd army district, and if

8 so, where? So just tell us what your duty was, where you fulfilled the

9 duty. And if we'd like to know how you got there, whether the roads were

10 bad or good, we'll certainly ask you or counsel will ask you. But we have

11 to use our time as efficiently as possible, so please listen carefully and

12 answer specifically to what you're asked.

13 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So, DP36, did you understand my question or should I repeat it?

16 What duty did you hold, if you held any duty, as of the 22nd of April in

17 the 2nd army district?

18 A. When I arrived there, confusion reigned and I wasn't assigned to

19 anything. I was merely with the department for morale and information. I

20 was not issued with any document or hadn't been appointed to that duty in

21 view of the events which ensued.

22 Q. Thank you. When you say that you were not issued with an official

23 document appointing you to a particular duty because of the disarray which

24 ensued, can you tell us what were -- what was this disarray? What was

25 this confusion which ensued after your arrival?

Page 18020

1 A. The command was blocked, and it was under constant fire from

2 infantry weapons, from the 1st, 2nd, the 3rd, until the 3rd in the evening

3 when we were captured.

4 Q. Mr. DP36, when you speak about the command, I believe -- I

5 understood that you were talking about the command at Bistrik.

6 A. Yes, yes, yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us, when did you get to that command?

8 A. On the 1st of May, in the afternoon, in a military APC.

9 Q. That 1st of May when you arrived in the command at Bistrik in an

10 APC, did you already have information about the situation with regard to

11 military facilities in the part of the city of Sarajevo, let me call it

12 the centre proper of Sarajevo where there were some military facilities?

13 I believe that is beyond dispute. Did you have any information as to the

14 situation there?

15 A. No, I didn't have a lot of information. I didn't know much. It

16 was only when I got there that I started finding out, because that was the

17 beginning of the blockade of all the military facilities and

18 establishments in Sarajevo.

19 Q. When you tell us that it was the beginning of the blockade of all

20 the military establishments in Sarajevo, did you personally see persons

21 who were blocking those military institutions? Specifically, you were in

22 the command at Bistrik, military. Did you have an opportunity to see the

23 persons who had blocked that barracks, the barracks and specifically the

24 command which you reached on the 1st of May?

25 A. I could not see them on the 1st and 2nd of May because there was

Page 18021

1 fire all the time. I saw them on the 3rd of May. On the 3rd of May, when

2 they waylaid us and practically captured us. That was when I saw who that

3 was. But those were different groups, well armed, however, very bold.

4 And from what I knew, there had been an understanding which I am sure you

5 are familiar with between the commander of the 2nd army district,

6 General MacKenzie, and the leader of the Muslims, Izetbegovic, providing

7 for our safe conduct. And I believe it was a gentleman's agreement. But,

8 however, something happened.

9 Q. Mr. DP36, with the Chamber's leave we should like to show you a

10 videotape which would be D348 exhibit. This is a tape which is about two

11 minutes long.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, the

13 Defence should like to show this tape. And then I will have a few

14 questions for the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed. May I ask the assistance of

16 the technicians.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Could we just get an indication, Mr. President, from

18 the Defence which of the two tapes this is.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I said number three, and I gave

21 the transcript to your associate, and I believe that the interpreters'

22 booths also have transcripts, but I can distribute more copies for the

23 Chamber now and for the registrar.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you, Mr. Usher, assist Ms. Pilipovic in

25 distributing the transcripts.

Page 18022

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. DP36, since we're waiting for our engineers to start running

3 the tape, I'll ask you some other questions. From what your -- from your

4 answer, I gathered that you were captured on the 3rd of May.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the video -- yes.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Around the building and in Vidova

10 ulica it is peaceful there. No signs of fighting. The concentration of

11 armed people from all sorts of leagues and berets is quite feasible at the

12 corner of the street leading to Belgrade Hotel. That is exactly where the

13 muzzles of their rifles and the cries to surrender are directed to.

14 Surrender yourself!

15 Further down the street towards the Belgrade hotel, the National

16 Theatre and the Central Post Office there are a few JNA soldiers. Their

17 vehicle is the only one that managed to pass the Skenderija crossroads but

18 it failed to reach the JNA club building. The calls to surrender of the

19 bullhorn are directed to them again.

20 Surrender!

21 Alongside the Sarajevo TV cameras there is the the omnipresent BBC

22 and Martin Bell. With a smile on his face Dzevad Topic is inviting to

23 attack the JNA centre and capture the men inside.

24 Sniper rifles are repeatedly requested, and they are brought along

25 with the Zoljas.

Page 18023

1 On the street leading to the department store, explosives are laid

2 and also bazookas are in position. Topic opens fire in the direction of

3 the National Theatre and the Belgrade Hotel.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is the end.

5 Q. Mr. DP36, can you tell us, concerning this footage that we just

6 saw, can you tell me if you had an opportunity to see these men or similar

7 men in such uniforms armed at the time when you were living -- that is,

8 I'm referring to the 1st and 2nd of May and early 3rd May in Sarajevo.

9 A. This happened on the 2nd of May, and it was very dramatic. When a

10 group of JNA soldiers were massacred and liquidated at Skenderija and

11 another group was headed toward the JNA centre. I was present at this

12 dramatic situation in the 2nd army district when they cut off the line for

13 people who were seeking help with Motorolas, so they couldn't get any

14 reinforcement and it happened on the 2nd of May. I did not personally see

15 it but I know what the situation was in the 2nd army district and I knew

16 that they could not be helped.

17 Q. Mr. DP36, as you were answering my questions, I believe you said

18 that you were captured on the 3rd of May.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us where you were when you were captured.

21 A. I was in a column somewhere in the middle of the column, halfway

22 through the column. And when the column started, suddenly fire was opened

23 on us. It was hellish fire, so we all threw ourselves down on the ground.

24 And they approached us, started disarming us, although we were ordered not

25 to hold our weapons in a provocative position so that all our barrels were

Page 18024

1 facing down.

2 Q. Mr. DP36, can you tell us, in that column in which you were, who

3 was leading that column?

4 A. At the head of the column was a UN vehicle which

5 General MacKenzie, Colonel General Kukanjac, and the then-president of BH,

6 Alija Izetbegovic.

7 Q. Thank you. When you say that they were in the column and you were

8 captured and attacked, can you tell us who was it that attacked the column

9 in which you were at the time of your capture? Did you, that is, learn

10 which military formation was it? Was it army or ...?

11 A. Those were then Muslim paramilitary formations aligned in the

12 Patriotic League. Then members of the Ministry of the Interior, and other

13 groups led by certain criminals.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

15 Defence would like to show another tape, which is tape D312. There is a

16 transcript. It is two minutes, and I think we could use the time before

17 the break to see it so that tomorrow I could ask some questions about it.

18 This is the footage which covers the events of the 3rd of May, referred to

19 by the witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you do not intend to put any questions to the

21 witness, would it not be wiser to show it tomorrow so that he has it fresh

22 in his mind?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not getting the

24 interpretation.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 18025

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has the interpretation now been restored?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe tomorrow.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, wise to put it -- but you can use the additional

4 five minutes if you have any other questions.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, Your Honour.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness DP36, when you said that on the 3rd May you were captured

9 whilst in that column, can you tell us where were you as captives and how

10 many people were captured?

11 A. Everybody was captured except the part of the column at the head,

12 and certain killings also happened at that time. They brought us to the

13 building of the physical culture centre in Sarajevo, and then I was

14 singled out, I suppose because I had my navy insignia, with another woman

15 and taken to the Evropa Hotel as a hostage.

16 Q. Now when you answered this question, can you tell us if according

17 to you this procedure -- this treatment of the column with which you were,

18 that is, column which was leaving its facilities - and we are talking

19 about members of the JNA - was that attack planned?

20 A. That attack was perfectly planned. And to support my belief,

21 there is a book by Sefer Halilovic, mastermind behind the Patriotic League

22 and commander of the so-called BH army, and in his book he points out that

23 they were the protagonists of the chaos and disarray, that is, the

24 Patriotic League in Sarajevo of which everything that happened afterwards

25 escalated.

Page 18026

1 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, since you remained in the territory of

2 Sarajevo until the 22nd of June, do you have any direct knowledge whether

3 the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew? And I mean both troops and the

4 materiel from that territory. And if you know, when was that?

5 JUDGE ORIE: I hear that you are entering a -- more or less a new

6 subject at this very moment. Looking at the clock, having only two or

7 three minutes available, I'd prefer to deal with the documents of the

8 previous witness first and ask this witness, DP36, to return tomorrow

9 morning.

10 Mr. DP36, we are close to where we adjourn until tomorrow. We'd

11 like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00. I cannot promise you that

12 we'll start at 9.00, because sometimes there are procedural issues to be

13 dealt with, but we'd like to see you back in the same courtroom, tomorrow

14 9.00.

15 May I instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony

16 you have given until now and you are still about to give. Yes?

17 Mr. Usher, would you then please pull the curtains down and escort

18 the witness out of the courtroom.

19 In the meanwhile, I'll ask the registrar to assist us with the

20 documents of the previous witness and also to indicate where there seems

21 to be a problem in the numbering of these documents.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1833, pseudonym sheet under seal; Exhibit

23 D1834, map marked by witness; Exhibit D1835, set of three maps; Exhibit

24 D1836, colour map marked by witness; Exhibit D938, letter from command of

25 SRK dated 8 August 1993; D938.1, English translation; D1453, letter from

Page 18027

1 SRK command dated 12 September 1992; Exhibit D1453.1, English translation.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with respect to D1835, the set of

4 three maps, the Prosecution has no objection to that exhibit being

5 admitted into evidence. We would, however, ask that only those portions

6 of that set of maps to which the witness referred be admissible, that is,

7 that the witness testified about specific parts of that map and a very

8 limited part of that map. We have no objection with respect to that

9 portion of those maps, but with respect to the broader confrontation lines

10 as depicted on that map, the Prosecution does object to consideration of

11 those aspects to which the witness did not testify.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might not be easy to cut out specifically

13 those parts, but I do understand that there's no objection but that the

14 Prosecution expresses that it does not accept those parts of the

15 confrontation lines to be correctly drawn which have not been the subject

16 of examination of the witness.

17 I take it, Ms. Pilipovic, that specifically on those parts of the

18 confrontation line the witness has testified about it, that's the reason

19 why you tendered these documents into evidence and that we are not

20 suggested to accept all of the other confrontation lines?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE ORIE: So being no argument with the parties on that aspect

23 and hearing no objections, the documents are admitted into evidence.

24 Madam Registrar, was there not something about a number which was

25 not clearly indicated on the -- in the transcript?

Page 18028

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I draw the attention of the parties to the fact

3 that the Prosecution exhibit that had been re-used, and that is a

4 photograph, P3750A, that it has not been correctly put in the transcript.

5 It's the picture of the mosque and the minaret in a state of destruction.

6 I just draw the attention to the parties of that so that it could -- that

7 it would not create any confusion.

8 We'll adjourn until --

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Once

11 again, we shall be referring to this exhibit again, so could we do the

12 same thing as we did with the church at the time of Dobrinja; in other

13 words, can we ask the Prosecution to let us know when was this photograph

14 taken.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this information is available, please,

16 Mr. Mundis, inform the Defence. And if that's -- if there would be any

17 problem remaining, the Chamber will hear from you.

18 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, same courtroom.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

20 at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

21 the 22nd day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.