Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18309

1 Monday, 27 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Ms. Pilipovic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it the Defence ready

11 to -- well, to call its next witness would not be the right wording,

12 because he entered the courtroom already as far as I see. It's usually I

13 think new witnesses wait outside until they are called. But it's not a

14 disaster.

15 Are you ready to...

16 Then, can you hear me in a language you understand?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving evidence in this Court, Witness, the

19 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

20 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 The text of this declaration will be handed out, and may I invite you to

22 make that declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

Page 18310

1 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone. Thank

6 you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Good morning, Witness.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. I'd like you to -- to ask you to give us your full name and

10 surname and date of birth.

11 A. My name is Bukva Milorad, born on the 17th of January, 1958.

12 Q. Very briefly, can you tell us about your educational background

13 and career.

14 A. Following the primary school, I went to the secondary military

15 school. I completed two years in Zagreb and then two years in Belgrade

16 after military school.

17 Q. Just, Mr. Bukva, can you go slowly.

18 A. Yes. After that, I completed military academy in Belgrade. This

19 was the communications section. And then following the war in the former

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina, I completed the general staff school in Belgrade.

21 As far as my career is concerned, this started after I finished the

22 military academy. And then I became engaged at the 351st communications

23 platoon in Sarajevo. It was -- in September 1981 that I started my

24 service in Sarajevo.

25 Q. Mr. Bukva, I understood from your answer that before the conflict

Page 18311

1 broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, in Sarajevo, you had your

2 service, you were doing your service in Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Can you tell me in 1981, when you started working at the 351st

5 platoon, communications platoon, where was the base of your platoon?

6 Where were you stationed? Where were you employed?

7 A. This platoon was in Sarajevo. The exact location is Slobodan

8 Princip Seljo barracks. My initial duties, I carried out to start with,

9 were to be a commander of the platoon, commander of the company. And then

10 in 1986, I went to the service for intelligence and information.

11 Q. You told us that you were located at the Slobodan Princip Seljo

12 barracks in Sarajevo. Can you tell us what part of town is that so that

13 we can be clear about that?

14 A. I think I said it was Lukavica. It's a suburban part of town, it

15 was known as Lukavica.

16 THE INTERPRETER: It is not a platoon, it is regiment.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bukva, considering that you told us your

19 background, can you tell us in spring 1991 [sic], were you in service at

20 the regiment of the intelligence and information department? Were you

21 still working in Sarajevo?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us at that time, what was your rank? That is, in

24 spring of 1992?

25 A. Yes, I was captain first class.

Page 18312

1 Q. Bearing in mind your specialty, so from 1986, that is, and 1992,

2 you were doing intelligence and information duties. Were you informed or

3 did you have any knowledge about the situation in the barracks of the

4 Yugoslav People's Army in the spring of 1992?

5 A. Yes, absolutely.

6 Q. Until the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army?

7 A. Yes, absolutely. And I believe that I was extremely well-informed

8 about the situation at the barracks because we were already then under

9 some kind of measures of heightened combat readiness, and we were always

10 away of what could happen because there was a threat of an attack, as it

11 did happen in -- when the war in Croatia started.

12 Q. Considering your answer, were there any particular measures that

13 were taken so that this atmosphere of tension is somehow relieved?

14 A. Yes, yes, a number of measures were taken. First of all, there

15 were political activities that were very lively in order to calm down the

16 situation which was not promising at all. On the contrary. But the other

17 side, that is, the Muslims, whenever there was an agreement, the other

18 side, the Muslims, betrayed it. They were -- they tricked us. They

19 didn't follow the agreement.

20 Q. Mr. Bukva, considering that you told us that the army was in the

21 barracks, and that the situation was very tense, the atmosphere was very

22 tense, you personally, did you have information or data that certain

23 units, and if so, which ones, have positions outside of the barracks?

24 That is, in certain locations -- on certain locations outside of Sarajevo.

25 Do you have such information?

Page 18313

1 A. You mean the JNA?

2 Q. Yes, I'm still talking about 1992. I'm talking about the JNA.

3 I'm talking about the spring of 1992.

4 A. Well, this answer flows out of my previous answer. This is within

5 the measures of calming the situation down. Specifically, we had certain

6 orders that some movement of Yugoslav People's Army units be reduced as

7 much as possible, in order not to irritate, in inverted commas, the local

8 population. So practically speaking, we did not leave the barracks. So

9 we cannot really speak about some units being on some positions outside of

10 Sarajevo. That is completely untrue to state such a thing. So there's

11 absolutely no question; the units were not at any positions. We were in

12 the barracks. That was the permanent composition of the JNA, that is, the

13 recruits of military schools and those serving their military service.

14 Q. Mr. Bukva, on whose decision did it depended that the JNA was to

15 withdraw?

16 A. That was a political question. A decision was supposed to be

17 taken at the political level, while the army, in accordance with such a

18 decision, was supposed to follow it.

19 Q. Do you know whether the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew with all

20 the troops and all the equipment from Sarajevo, and if you know, when was

21 that?

22 A. Well, I can speak at length about this. But one of the conditions

23 was that units that happened to be in the city, and those that were

24 blocked by the forces of the then Patriotic League, the condition was that

25 those units could leave with a proviso that they would leave the weapons

Page 18314

1 in the barracks, leave the weapons behind. And in order to protect lives

2 of those JNA members, that's how it was decided, and that's how this was

3 conducted. Weapons were mostly left behind in the barracks. Partly some

4 weapons were taken out of the barracks, and this was mostly infantry

5 weapons.

6 Q. I believe you didn't just -- you didn't answer when was that. I

7 asked you in my question when was it that the JNA withdrew with the

8 equipment, and the troops. Was there a specific period, specific date, or

9 did it go in stages?

10 A. I think that was 19th of May, I believe. I'm not absolutely

11 certain, but that was in May.

12 Q. From your answers, and I believe that I followed you correctly,

13 the JNA did not have any positions on important strategic positions in and

14 around Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, that's correct. They did not have any such positions.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether a number of officers of

17 the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew, and if they did, how many of them

18 did? Rather, was there a decision pertaining to the officers of the

19 Yugoslav People's Army at the time when the Yugoslav People's Army was

20 withdrawing?

21 A. Most of the officers and noncommissioned officers withdrew

22 together with the JNA into the territory of Yugoslavia, except for members

23 who were born in the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were

24 allowed to stay there. However, before then, we were abandoned by all

25 the -- or rather, the JNA was -- all the members of the Muslim nation left

Page 18315

1 the JNA. For instance, my regiment had 120 officers and noncommissioned

2 officers in the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were

3 another three noncommissioned officers who remained together with me. So

4 perhaps, 4, 5 per cent. Probably 4 per cent officers and noncommissioned

5 officers remained. I believe that was the situation in other units as

6 well.

7 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us, when was the Army of Republika Srpska

8 established including the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

9 A. The decision regarding the establishment of the Army of Republika

10 Srpska was adopted at the assembly session on the 12th of May. And the

11 actual act of creating the army, the Army of Republika Srpska, also

12 created the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

13 Q. Do you personally have any knowledge as to which units were part

14 of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and when was the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

15 established?

16 A. You cannot really speak about units that were part of the Sarajevo

17 Romanija Corps. The Sarajevo Romanija Corps was established over a period

18 of time, and it included with itself all those units that existed at the

19 time, existing on the territorial principle, that is, on the principle of

20 Territorial Defence. That is that Sarajevo Romanija Corps encompassed all

21 those forces that were in existence on the field, on the ground. They

22 didn't have any kind of names, so to speak, except that they were linked

23 to topographic locations where they were on the ground.

24 Q. When you say that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was made up of units

25 of the Territorial Defence which existed in certain areas, do you

Page 18316

1 personally have knowledge as to what was the disposition of the

2 Territorial Defence units in the area of the city of Sarajevo, and do you

3 know in what way were certain areas taken by the units of the Territorial

4 Defence?

5 A. The initial stages of the war, during that initial stage, the Serb

6 population of that area had to self-organise, that is, they had to defend

7 their own houses. They had to defend their own settlements, villages.

8 And according to that principle, there was establishment of an informal

9 front line. And to be more specific, the demarcation area, the

10 demarcation line between the Muslim and the Serb population, followed the

11 ethnic line, the ethnicity line.

12 Q. When you tell us that these lines followed the ethnic line and

13 that on the Serb side, there were units of the Territorial Defence, can

14 you tell us did you know what was the situation in terms of organisation

15 on the other side, on the side where the majority of the population were

16 Muslim?

17 A. I'll try and be brief. During the war in Croatia, the Muslim

18 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina had already forbidden recruits to join

19 the JNA. As far as their able-bodied men, that is, those of military

20 eligible age, they were prevented from going to Croatia. So already in

21 1992, we can speak of an extremely well -- military force of Muslims that

22 was active through the Party of Democratic Action. And as recruits went

23 to join the JNA, and JNA was a very important guarantor of security for

24 all three nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was then understood by the

25 Serb population was that war was coming. And looking at the way the

Page 18317

1 Muslims were being militarily organised, that's how the units of the --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness slow down, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bukva, if I may interrupt you, you and

4 Ms. Pilipovic are speaking the same language. And since the -- you're

5 both speaking quite quickly, could you please slow down so that the

6 interpreters can translate all the words you speak.

7 Please proceed.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So what I wanted to add, I wanted to

9 add another detail. The most extremist individuals in the Patriotic

10 League were well-known Sarajevo criminals who were absolute terror of

11 Sarajevo prior to the war. They were not just a terror of the Serbs, but

12 also of the Muslims.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

14 Q. Mr. Bukva, when you told us that the establishment of the Sarajevo

15 Romanija Corps was a longer process and that it encompassed units of the

16 Territorial Defence which were in some areas of the city where there was a

17 majority Serb population, can you tell us whether according to you these

18 positions of the territorial army -- Territorial Defence units, whether

19 this was somehow being controlled by the city of Sarajevo?

20 A. Could you please repeat the question.

21 Q. Did this position of these units, according to the ethnic

22 principle on both sides, did it somehow reflect the situation in the city

23 of Sarajevo, and if so, when was this possible to notice?

24 A. Yes, yes. I have already explained. When the JNA left, people

25 felt very insecure, and there was immediately movement of population.

Page 18318

1 That is, in those areas where there was majority population of Serbs, the

2 Muslims left that part of town to those parts of town where there was

3 majority population were Muslims and the other way around.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bukva, when the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was

5 established, and we will be speaking about September 1992, and if you have

6 any information or knowledge before September 1992, did you attend

7 meetings at the corps command during this period, that is, at the time

8 when the corps was established?

9 A. Yes, it seems that I didn't answer one part of the question. The

10 establishment of the corps was a process which lasted for a certain period

11 of time. You can say that it ended at the end of 1992. I was a member of

12 the corps command, and I attended a number of meetings. And in the role

13 as officer for intelligence duties.

14 Q. We'll go back to your duties as officer for intelligence and

15 security matters, as officer of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. But my

16 question now is whether -- would you be informed about the objective, that

17 is, was there a war objective in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in relation

18 to Sarajevo? Was there some talk of this, and whether you can tell us

19 about the positions in the corps?

20 A. Yes, yes. Most of the members of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and

21 most of the command personnel, they knew what the war objective of the SRK

22 was. It was defined by the assembly decision which practically confirmed

23 the situation on the ground which was the division of the city.

24 Q. You say the actual situation on the ground and the division of the

25 city. Are you referring to the lines that were established between the

Page 18319

1 Territorial Defence on the Serbian side and members of the organised

2 Muslims units on the other side?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In your opinion, was that the objective that had been set?

5 A. Yes, and I'd like to repeat that that was the decision taken by

6 the assembly.

7 Q. Could you tell us, when the Republika Srpska army started

8 functioning as an army and was under a single command?

9 A. Well, it started functioning as an army when they declared the

10 existence of the Army of Republika Srpska. During a certain period of

11 time, it had certain problems which were overcome as in the course of

12 their duties. But you could say that it had all the characteristic of an

13 organised and functional army by the end of 1992.

14 Q. You tell us that it had certain problems when it was formed. Can

15 you tell us what sort of problems it encountered when the Republika Srpska

16 army was formed and the SRK, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

17 A. Yes. One of the main, most persistent problems, was the lack of

18 qualified and -- the lack of qualified professional officers. A while

19 ago, I mentioned my JNA unit which left Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I said

20 that the situation was more or less the same in other units. There were

21 very few qualified commanding officers so that there were commands at

22 lower levels which lacked such men. And this was a serious problem.

23 Secondly, it was difficult for us to bring units up to strength

24 because there were very few Serbs in comparison to the enemy. And

25 thirdly, we had certain problems in relation to putting certain groups and

Page 18320

1 units under control, certain groups and units which we considered to be

2 paramilitary groups.

3 Q. You've mentioned the problems that appeared while the Sarajevo

4 Romanija Corps was being formed. Can you tell us whether during that

5 period, and with regard to those noticeable problems, were any measures

6 taken in order to solve these problems? How long did this take, and in

7 your opinion, was that problem solved at a given moment?

8 A. Well, as I have already said, it's very -- forming an army is a

9 very difficult and lengthy process. The problems that we encountered were

10 successfully solved as rapidly as possible because the situation was such

11 that this was necessary. In our opinion, we eliminated all of those

12 problems, and as I have already said, we managed to organise a functional

13 army by the end of 1992. Certain problems which concerned paramilitary

14 units were also very rapidly solved at the very beginning of 1993.

15 Q. You told us that you solved the problems that you had within the

16 corps. Can you now tell us who issued orders according to which problems

17 would be solved within the corps, problems concerning both paramilitary

18 units and discipline and all the other problems that you mentioned, that

19 you have mentioned, and which existed in the corps? Who issued such

20 orders?

21 A. We received the orders of this kind from the superior command,

22 that is to say, from the main staff, on the basis of those orders and of

23 what was necessary, the corps command would also issue its own orders.

24 Q. You told us that there were paramilitary units. Before I put a

25 certain series of questions to you with regard to solving the problem of

Page 18321

1 paramilitary units, could you tell us exactly what your duties covered as

2 an intelligence officer?

3 A. I'll try and be brief. When the SRK was formed, as one of the

4 elements of command, there was also a section for intelligence and

5 security affairs. And it consisted of two parts, two departments: A

6 department for intelligence and a security department. I was the chief of

7 the intelligence department. The task of that department was to ensure

8 that all the conditions for carrying out intelligence and security within

9 the corps existed. That meant that it was the task of my department to

10 provide the command with a sufficient amount of quality information on the

11 enemy in order to avoid surprises of any kind. That meant that it was

12 necessary to know the strength of the enemy, the number of men, the state

13 of morale, the deployment of forces, the kind of weapons it had, the

14 training they had, their objectives, purposes, activities, and all other

15 information that would indicate what the nature of the enemy was.

16 Q. You have described in more detail your department. Can you tell

17 us who they reported to?

18 A. As the chief of that department, I was subordinated to the chief

19 of the corps staff. And in professional terms, I was subordinated to the

20 chief of the department for intelligence and security affairs in the

21 corps.

22 Q. As chief of the intelligence department, who did you relay

23 intelligence to?

24 A. To the chief of staff.

25 Q. I will later return to the issue of receiving and gathering

Page 18322

1 intelligence on the enemy. But I would now like to turn to the issue of

2 paramilitary units, the problem of paramilitary units that existed when

3 the SRK was formed. Can you tell us how you solved the problem of

4 paramilitary units in that area? Could you first tell us, if possible,

5 what paramilitary units are?

6 A. Well, paramilitary units are groups of people who are not

7 subordinated to anyone in particular. They don't respect commands,

8 superior commands, and they quite simply behave and act outside the law

9 that governs armies. The problem of paramilitary units or groups or

10 individuals was solved above all via political means. This means that the

11 organs of power played an essential role in putting those units under the

12 control of the army of Republika Srpska. And the results were very good.

13 Most of these units were thus placed under the control of the army of

14 Republika Srpska, that is to say, under the control of the SRK. A

15 negligible number refused to be placed under the control of the army, and

16 we solved this problem in the way provided for by the law, and that is by

17 having recourse to force.

18 Q. When you say that -- now that you've told us how you solved the

19 problems that related to the paramilitary units, and we've heard quite a

20 lot of testimony about certain units that were in the area of the SRK, can

21 you tell us which paramilitary units you had problems with and were, so to

22 speak, subordinated to the corps command?

23 A. Well, a characteristic example would be a certain group which

24 called itself Chetniks. It existed in Ilidza, and in spite of all the

25 attempts that were made to "peacefully" place them under the command of

Page 18323

1 the SRK, the military police units had to intervene to disarm that group

2 and its members, and we had to mobilise the members and place them in

3 other units so that they would no longer form a single unit.

4 Q. You haven't answered my question as to whether you know and will

5 remember which units are concerned. You mentioned the Chetnik unit in

6 Ilidza. But were there such units in other areas, too? And I am

7 referring to paramilitary units. When you solved these problems, when you

8 were solving these problems, who did you cooperate with closely when

9 solving those problems in certain areas where those units were located?

10 A. All I said is that -- all I told you about was a drastic example,

11 and in this case, we were forced to have recourse to force. But as I have

12 already said, most of those units were placed under control through

13 political means, through carrying out -- through working in the field. I

14 think that there was a group Gedora. I think that was the name. But I

15 don't think there were any other cases in which we had to use force.

16 Q. Witness, you said that your department and you, as the chief of

17 the intelligence department, had some duties. You told us which duties it

18 had to perform and what sort of information it had to gather. My question

19 is as follows: On the basis of that intelligence, do you remember what

20 sort of -- what kind of men and weapons the BH army had, and if you do, on

21 the basis of what kind of information did you receive such intelligence?

22 A. As I have already said, I've already mentioned one of the ways

23 that the military part of the Party of Democratic Action used to arm. Its

24 members would go to the war in Croatia, and they would return with

25 weapons. At the beginning of the war, these weapons were quite sufficient

Page 18324

1 for the Patriotic League and its members to enable them to launch certain

2 armed attacks against former JNA barracks. And this is how they managed

3 to obtain a certain amount of weapons.

4 The third way of obtaining weapons was through an agreement that

5 had been reached about withdrawing from the barracks of the former JNA in

6 Sarajevo. The Muslims demanded a third of the weapons of the Territorial

7 Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I personally was present when the

8 Muslims were given certain infantry weapons when withdrawing from the

9 Viktor Bubanj barracks. This was from the Territorial Defence warehouse.

10 I'm not sure what the amount was, but I think it was about 3.500 guns.

11 The fourth way of obtaining weapons by the Muslims is the one I

12 have already described. When the JNA units were leaving the barracks in

13 Sarajevo, and this was all just before the beginning of war. That's when

14 all of this happened. And so it's possible to conclude that they had

15 quite good infantry weapons and also anti-armour weapons. As far as the

16 men were concerned, throughout the war, we were in an inferior position,

17 and it's possible to say that throughout the war, the ratio was 1 to 4 in

18 favour of the Muslims. 1 to 4 or 1 to 3.5, or rather 1 to 4.

19 Q. Now that you have said how the BH army obtained weapons, and the

20 extent to which it was armed, and you have also said how many men they

21 had, you said 1 to 4 or 1 to 3.5, do you know how many men the BH army

22 had? That is to say, the BH army corps in the period of 1992, 1993, and

23 1994, and how many men did the Sarajevo Romanija Corps have?

24 A. Well, that can be determined quite precisely. And as I say, on

25 the basis of the information that we had, in Sarajevo itself, in the city

Page 18325

1 of Sarajevo, in the part of the town that was under Muslim control, the

2 enemy had about 35 to 38.000 armed men. But the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,

3 when it was at maximum strength, I think it had, as far as I can remember,

4 about -- between 18 and 20.000 men. But there's something that's specific

5 to the SRK, and that is the fact that it was in a semi-encirclement. It

6 was what we called an outer ring, and it linked up about 40.000 enemy

7 soldiers. So on the whole, the total number of enemy forces was about

8 78.000, whereas our corps had between 18 and 20.000 men at the most. And

9 later on, as the war advanced, the number of men diminished because of the

10 casualties suffered.

11 Q. Mr. Bukva, you told us that you had information according to which

12 the part of town which was under BH army control. In that part of town,

13 there were between 35 and 38.000 armed troops. In 1992 and 1993, up until

14 August 1994, did you have any information on the positions of the weapons

15 that the enemy side had? Did you have any information

16 according -- telling you where the soldiers of the 1st Corps were located

17 in that part of the town, and if you did have any such information, how

18 did you obtain it?

19 A. Well, all intelligence services have several means of obtaining

20 information on the army. We mostly got our best information through

21 conversations with people who had come from other parts, had crossed over

22 from the territory of the part of the town that was under Muslim control.

23 Naturally, there were other ways of obtaining information on the enemy.

24 We had a very good network at the front line itself which carefully

25 monitored all enemy moves and observed the enemy. And by observing the

Page 18326

1 enemy, we were able to obtain very reliable information on the enemy.

2 Naturally, we had a certain amount of information that was obtained

3 through monitoring the media. We received very reliable information

4 through monitoring the enemy's radio links and other communications. We

5 took advantage of the weaknesses that their communication system had.

6 Q. Mr. Bukva, you have told us how you obtained information on the

7 enemy deployment, on the enemy positions, and on where the men and weapons

8 were located. Did you have any information for the period that we are

9 interested in according to which there were workshops in that part of town

10 where weapons were being produced? And if you did have such information,

11 what was the source of the information? Or if it was the same source,

12 it's not necessary to repeat that.

13 A. Yes, we think that we had very good information, very reliable

14 information, on the workshops where the weapons were produced because we

15 thought this was important. It was important for our command to have such

16 information. On the whole, we obtained this information through

17 conversations with people who had crossed over and who in a certain sense

18 had contact with those sites. They were either in a work platoon or they

19 had been captured or something like that. In any event, they knew about

20 those locations, and we managed to determine that this information was

21 correct.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bukva, if the Defence shows you a map, given what

23 you can remember and the information that you disposed of, would you be

24 able to indicate the positions on that map which you knew to be positions

25 where the army was located and where there were workshops and areas in

Page 18327

1 which there were weapons used by the BH army in the period that the

2 Defence is interested in, September 1992 to August 1994?

3 A. Well, to an extent I think I could do so, although I may have

4 forgotten certain things.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

6 the Defence would like to show a map of the town of Sarajevo. It does the

7 one that we have used up until now. I have marked --

8 JUDGE ORIE: We all have the experience that marking in Court

9 takes a tremendous amount of time. Would it be a suggestion that we would

10 ask the witness to do some of the marking during the break under the

11 supervision of the parties, and that you then ask questions about it? Not

12 the break to be now, but to move to another subject first unless it would

13 interfere in such a way with your line of questioning that we could not

14 wait for another half an hour. But since it's on my list that you asked

15 for four hours to examine the witness, perhaps there would be another

16 subject that could be dealt with first, and we would then ask the witness

17 to mark.

18 But I would like you then to instruct the witness quite clearly

19 just before the break on how the markings should be made because you're

20 asking for several kind of locations. I noticed that you asked for

21 workshops and you also asked for positions where the army was located. I

22 don't know whether half an hour would be sufficient to mark all the

23 positions where the army was located. But if you would please give the

24 witness precise instructions just before the break how to mark it and what

25 exactly to mark it.

Page 18328

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your

2 Honour. Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you please tell us during the relevant period of

4 time where was your post, your working position? Which facility did you

5 occupy where you carried out your duties?

6 A. My section for intelligence tasks was as part of the department

7 for the security intelligence matters of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and

8 those two sections, departments, were located in the corps command.

9 Specifically, we were at the forward command post of the SRK in Lukavica

10 at the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks of the former JNA.

11 Q. When you say that you were at the forward command post in Lukavica

12 at the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks, can you tell us whether in this

13 building where your service was as well, was this also the command post of

14 General Galic?

15 A. Yes, yes, this is the forward command post of the corps, which is

16 where he was most of the time.

17 Q. When you say "where he was most of the time," can you tell us

18 during this period of time if you can define it how much of his time did

19 General Galic spend at the forward command post in Lukavica?

20 A. It is very hard to be precise, but I think in terms of

21 percentages, it will be over 80 per cent. Perhaps even 90 per cent of his

22 time. Because the situation demanded this. There were daily combat

23 activities, and everything else that demanded for the commander to be

24 there, although the command post was in Pale.

25 Q. When you say that the situation demanded this, and the daily

Page 18329

1 combat activities, I'm going to ask you some questions in relation to your

2 answer as you said about the daily combat activities. But first of all,

3 can you tell us, did you enter the premises, the offices, of General

4 Stanislav Galic?

5 A. Yes, on several occasions. Yes, absolutely, yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us, in your opinion, what is the view that the

7 General had from his offices in relation to certain parts of the city of

8 Sarajevo? Did he have a good view? What kind of view did he have?

9 A. I think I can competently answer this question because the

10 command, that is, the office of General Galic, was located in the building

11 that I had occupied from 1991 until the beginning of the war. So I

12 absolutely know the positions of the offices and the premises and I know

13 where his office was. From that office, it is practically impossible to

14 see anything whatsoever for many reasons. The view towards Sarajevo, that

15 is, to the part of Dobrinja and Donji Kotorac is obstructed by a building

16 which is in the immediate vicinity, and that is the building of the

17 soldiers' club. Furthermore, when there is a lot of greenery, a series of

18 trees is also obstructing the view which is very near the barracks. And

19 last but not least, because of the enemy activities and enemy fire from

20 Dobrinja, from the direction of Dobrinja, we were forced, in order to

21 protect our commander, we were forced to put near the barracks and between

22 the building of the soldiers' club, we had to put concrete blocks, slabs,

23 that were in such -- not concrete, steel slabs of such height and size

24 that they obstructed the view towards the city. So I can say with

25 certainty that from these premises, it was not possible to see the city.

Page 18330

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence had

2 handed over a tape that the Defence had made which is the filming of the

3 area of the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks, which is the forward command

4 post of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. The actual cassette is only 1 and a

5 half to 2 minutes long. And on this tape, you can see a certain part of

6 that area. And with your leave, the Defence would ask if this

7 videocassette could be shown.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. Is it available to the

9 technicians?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] This is for the technical booth.

11 And my learned colleagues have it. I had put it -- but on Friday we were

12 in different courtrooms. I don't know whether they have it. I do have

13 another copy here. The exhibit number is D348/7.

14 The cassette has no sound.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Bukva, do you recognise?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us, what is this building?

20 A. This is the building of the soldiers' club. This is the trees,

21 the line of trees that I told you about which obstructs the view from the

22 office of General Galic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The video go on.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the top floor upstairs, to the

25 right --

Page 18331

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the technical

2 booth to stop here, pause, so the witness can explain?

3 A. From the right to the left.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Bukva, could you please take the pointer and could you please

6 point exactly --

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Cannot be

8 followed by. Can we just try that you put your questions in such a way

9 that we know what you are talking about. What are we identifying at this

10 moment? What would you like the witness to indicate to us, the offices of

11 General Galic or anything else?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. If he can show us the

13 windows of the -- General Galic's office.

14 Q. Witness, can you tell us in which part of the building and on

15 which floor these were?

16 A. Yes. Upstairs, on the top floor, that is, on the first floor,

17 from the right to the left, second window, these were the windows of the

18 office of the commander, the commander's office.

19 Q. On this building, can you see the windows of the offices where

20 your service was?

21 A. Yes. The following window, that is the room for commander's rest,

22 and the room after that is my own office.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness is

24 indicating on the video material on which we can see the building of the

25 forward command post of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the witness has just

Page 18332

1 explained that the right top corner, the two windows, are the windows of

2 General Galic's office. Going to the left, that is, to the east, the

3 first window after that is the room for commander's rest, and then the

4 fourth window towards the left is the office where Witness Bukva had his

5 office.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just try to clarify this.

7 Mr. Bukva, you see on the first floor there are eight windows.

8 You say the first two from the right-hand side were General Galic's

9 offices. Then you said that there were a window or windows for the

10 restroom for General Galic. Would that be the third from the right?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, that's right.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And then the fourth from the right, that would be

13 your offices?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we now know what the four windows are that

16 we first saw. Ms. Pilipovic, whether it's east or west, there has been no

17 basis whatsoever to establish what is east and what is west. So you

18 can't, just for the sake of the transcript, fill in whether it's east,

19 west, north, or south without any basis in the testimony of the witness.

20 Please proceed. I'm not saying it's not true, but there's no

21 basis for it in the evidence.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us whether the view that we had towards

24 the building that you told us was the soldiers' club, is this the view

25 that would be seen from the offices -- from General Galic's office? Was

Page 18333

1 that the building that you told us was the soldiers' club?

2 A. Yes. And I'm saying that this picture was taken probably taken

3 from one of those windows because I know this view very well.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you say that you know this view, in

5 which direction in your opinion, can you tell us, regardless of the fact

6 that you told us the soldiers' club was obstructing the view, what is the

7 direction when we are talking about the core area and when we are talking

8 about the Sarajevo theatre of operations, what would we be able to see if

9 it wasn't for this soldiers' club? What would we see, could you tell us

10 that?

11 A. Yes, I think I would be able to tell you. If there were no

12 obstructions, we would be able to see a part of Dobrinja, the airport,

13 Donji Kotorac, and further on. This further on would mean Hrasnica, Mount

14 Igman, and that would be that.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the technical booth

16 if they can play the videotape to the end so we can see what else is on

17 the tape. It goes on for another minute.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can continue with the tape,

20 please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop, pause.

23 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us, this view that we can see on the tape

24 now, what is this area?

25 A. This view, this view was filmed from the corner of the soldiers'

Page 18334

1 club building, in relation to the view that I spoke of a minute ago is

2 approximately to the 90 degrees to the right. The facility you can see on

3 the ground on the horizon, rather, the elevation that we can see in the

4 background, is the Mojmilo hill. And as far as the other facilities are

5 concerned, that is, the houses that we can see, I don't think there's any

6 point talking about this. These are private houses.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can now the tape be played to the

8 end, please. I'm asking the technical booth.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Stop again.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, for the record, we can

11 indicate.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The direction you're looking in from this point, if

13 you would use a compass, what would be the direction on the compass if you

14 take the middle of the picture you have in front of you? Would that be

15 north, east, west?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is approximately north.

17 Perhaps north -- more towards northeast. For instance, this tree, the

18 thickest tree that we can see, and then the next one to the left, if we

19 look towards that tree, that would be north.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking the technical booth to

22 continue playing the tape, please.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Please pause.

25 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us, this area that we can see, those

Page 18335

1 buildings in the background of the screen, what are they?

2 A. I do not recognise those buildings. But in any case, this is

3 Dobrinja.

4 Q. Can you tell us which part of Dobrinja is that?

5 A. I think this is Dobrinja IV.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we now play the tape to

8 the end, please.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can fast forward now,

11 because we've already seen this.

12 Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Bukva, on this video material that was played, you explained

14 where the offices of General Galic were and yours as well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I interrupt you. The Chamber is

16 interested to see the video as a whole again because we still have some

17 difficulties in our orientation. And perhaps you could tell us a bit more

18 about also the -- I mean, sometimes I see it's zoomed in. Is that from

19 the same camera position? I do understand that the first pictures were,

20 as the witness told us, from the window of the office of General Galic.

21 That would have been more clear to us if that would have been known to us

22 right away. But perhaps we could see the video in its entirety once

23 again.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, of course.

25 What I just wanted to say is that the second part was filmed from the

Page 18336

1 corner of the building as the witness explained. There are perhaps some

2 parts that were zoomed, and you can see Mojmilo and Igman, but we can have

3 a look at the tape again.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For example, if the witness would indicate when

5 he sees Igman, because Mojmilo I think was clear. Igman was not mentioned

6 as far as I know until now, so we would like to get as much information

7 from the video as possible. So let's play it again.

8 When you see Mount Igman, could you please ask to stop just

9 perhaps by using the word "stop," and then you indicate where you see

10 Mount Igman.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness -- or rather, Your Honour,

13 with your leave I was going to just help. The communication, the road,

14 where the cars are going, what is this road? Where is it going?

15 A. This is the road Lukavica-Vojkovici, and then further on

16 Srpsko Trnovo and so on. I have to say that it is probable that we will

17 not be able to see Mount Igman here precisely from the position that the

18 first scenes were filmed in the background, that's where Igman is. But

19 probably because of the quality of the filming it's not possible to

20 actually see Igman. So from the windows of my office, that is, from the

21 window of the office of my commander, it is possible to see Igman very

22 well. But here it is impossible because of the angle and the lighting

23 during the filming.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please stop here.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is good. I apologise. So

Page 18337

1 after all, in the background behind the facilities, it is possible to see

2 the contours of Mount Igman.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, from the camera point of view where

4 you have told us that you see some structures in Dobrinja IV and Igman in

5 the background, what would be the direction the camera is facing at this

6 moment? Approximately.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, this is the direction

8 which is parallel to the view from the office of my commander and myself.

9 I presume that the camera was located exactly at the corner of the command

10 building, so we can say that this is a parallel view with a slight

11 difference. So this will be slightly different from the view that would

12 be seen from the office of the commander.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'm asking you for the direction the camera

14 is pointing at. Because a view usually gives an angle of, well, let's

15 say, from east to south 90 degrees or more, up to 180 degrees. But what

16 would be the direction you look here from the building which, as you tell

17 us, is approximately the same as from the window of General Galic's

18 offices? Would this be northwest or...?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So if we can geographically give

20 directions, this would be more to the west, except that it is possible

21 that it is slightly northwest. But in any case, it's west.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bukva, considering that we were able to see the

Page 18338

1 positions of Igman and Mojmilo, in your opinion, considering that you

2 lived in Sarajevo, strategically speaking, the positions of Igman and

3 Mojmilo, in relation to Sarajevo proper or to the most of Sarajevo, how

4 would you qualify those positions?

5 A. These are very important positions, and from the point of view of

6 the military, they represent an advantage for the side that would have

7 control of those. In relation to the SRK forces, these positions were

8 extremely important and represented a high-risk area for the SRK forces

9 because these positions were under the control of the Muslim forces.

10 Q. Mr. Bukva, on the video, when you saw the premises of the general

11 as well as yours, can you tell us whether in this building meetings were

12 held of the corps command and where in this building the meetings you

13 attended?

14 A. Yes --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand you to enter a new area about

16 meetings rather than the geographical position of the barracks. We have

17 got two minutes left before the break. Would you please instruct the

18 witness as to what to mark on the maps. I noticed that according to the

19 transcript, you asked him to mark workshops, military positions, and areas

20 where weapons used by the BH army. That's quite a task, I think. I don't

21 know whether you want all military positions or headquarters or

22 confrontation lines or whatever. But could you please give clear

23 instructions to the witness what to mark.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind that

25 this is a lot of work, the witness -- the Defence wanted the witness to

Page 18339

1 mark the locations, precise locations, that he knew about where the troops

2 of the 1st Corps of the BH army were located. That is, command posts of

3 the units that he knows about. And if this is also appropriate, we wanted

4 the witness to mark the command posts and if he can also make a key for

5 this map, with your leave, and also for the workshop if he can put the

6 letter R marking the workshops. And also, if he has any knowledge about

7 the positions of weapons, he can put the letter O for weapons or letter N

8 for weapons. For command posts, he can put the KM for command posts. For

9 us, that would be enough. And on the map, we could see where the command

10 posts were, where the workshops, were and where the weapons positions

11 were. And he can also put heavy weapons positions, TN, TN for heavy

12 weapons. And for command posts, KM. And for workshops, R.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You also suggested --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Unless you have a better proposal.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Weapons in general, but would you like to limit

16 your request to heavy weapons, or would you like heavy depots as well?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If the witness knows about the

18 warehouses, weapons warehouses, then he could also mark that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So you were asked, and I am aware that I am asking a

20 lot of you because where we have a break, we'll ask you to work. Of

21 course, if you need a break as well, you can take some break as well. But

22 during this half hour, if you could mark with an R any location of

23 workshops where weapons or ammunition was manufactured; with an O, any

24 warehouses or concentration of weapons; with a KM any command post you

25 would know, and perhaps then later on we'll find out what kind of command

Page 18340

1 posts these were; and TN for where heavy weapons were located.

2 If you would like to write it down, but otherwise you'll certainly

3 be assisted by -- if you have forgotten about the letters to use.

4 We'll then adjourn until 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The break has taken a bit more time, but it's also

8 due to the time the witness used to prepare his markings. Where do we

9 stand as far as the markings are concerned? Could it be -- could they be

10 put on the ELMO, and have the parties had an opportunity to look at the

11 markings made by the witness, or not yet?

12 MR. STAMP: Briefly.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we perhaps zoom in on the markings made

14 by the witness so we are better able to...

15 Ms. Pilipovic, could you guide the witness through the markings he

16 made.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Bukva, could you first of all tell us, the positions that you

19 have marked in, which part of the town are they?

20 A. This is the Cengic Vila part of town, and Alipasino Polje,

21 Alipasin bridge, Svrakino Selo, Alipasino Polje, and Svrakino village.

22 And up here, there is Buljakov stream and Boljakov stream.

23 Q. Which point of the compass is this?

24 A. This is the northern part of the town. It's the north. It's in

25 this direction. It's towards the north.

Page 18341

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think the general aspects of the map

2 are sufficiently known to the Chamber, not to be of specific attention

3 unless there would be need in order to -- yes.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us which positions you have marked and

6 what these markings mean. You could start with the first position which

7 has been marked with the letters TN.

8 A. To the north, TN, that's the Zlatiste garbage dump location. The

9 heavy artillery was located there. Howitzer battery, 155 millimetre

10 Howitzer and 120 millimetre mortar battery from the 112th Vitez Motorised

11 Brigade. It's command post you can see has been marked here. Its the

12 command post of the 112th --

13 MR. STAMP: I'm afraid we might have to go over that last part

14 because I didn't see what he was pointing to. The monitor focussed on the

15 courtroom, not on the ELMO.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps what we could do is to

17 zoom in always on the relevant part the witness is pointing at. So I

18 think the first part was explained sufficiently, Mr. Stamp, that that's

19 the location indicated by TN. And I take it that copies will be made of

20 the marked map soon so that....

21 So then the next one, you pointed at the headquarters. Could you

22 point at it so that we zoom in then on the headquarters you indicated.

23 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the ELMO zoom in to where the witness points

25 at.

Page 18342

1 Ms. Pilipovic.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

3 microphone.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, can you tell us about the positions, about the

6 other markings. What do they indicate on the map, the ones that we can

7 see to the left of the place which you have marked with the command post

8 of the 112th Motorised Brigade?

9 A. This is the command post of the 102nd Infantry Mountain Brigade.

10 This was located in Zica factory, in the wire factory. One of the

11 battalions of this brigade was in the Pavle Goranin primary school. That's

12 this position here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness now points at a place where attached to it

14 it's written Skola Pavle Goranin. I think it is approximately just above

15 the word Novi Grad on the map.

16 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Bukva, let's return to the upper part of the map. The 102nd

19 Motorised Brigade, which is to the left with regard to the 112th, can you

20 just move the map to the left and have a look at the left-hand corner. It

21 says MAD, 102 KM?

22 A. Yes, this is a mixed artillery battalion of the 102nd Infantry

23 Brigade. This is its command post and its firing position which were

24 located behind the Solitar Bosna Montaza building.

25 Q. You said the mixed artillery battalion.

Page 18343

1 A. Battalion, yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us whether you knew what weapons this mixed artillery

3 battalion possessed.

4 A. As in the case of the 112th Brigade, it had 105-millimetre

5 Howitzer battery or 155-millimetre Howitzer battery, and 120-millimetre

6 mortar battery.

7 Q. Since you have now marked this and explained that --

8 A. We have another part of this brigade's combat position. It's the

9 mixed anti-armour artillery battalion, which was located in the Dzemala

10 Bijedica Street. At the very beginning of that street. Its position was

11 across the road from the Slon car wash.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the witness now points at a marking

13 which is triangular shape of which the basis is where the map reads

14 "Cengic Vila."

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Bukva, in this battalion, did you know what sort of armour the

18 mixed anti-armour artillery battalion possessed?

19 A. Well, it depended on the time of the war, the period of the war.

20 The battalion had some anti-armour weapons, mostly Maljutkas. But in

21 1993, this battalion also had an anti-armour system called the red arrow.

22 It was of American production. We know this for a fact because some of

23 our anti-armour equipment had been hit by the system.

24 Q. In the upper right-hand corner, above this, you have the number

25 111, and it says KM. Could you tell us something about this?

Page 18344

1 A. If you will just allow me to say the following, that's the command

2 post of the 111th Infantry Brigade which was located in the former

3 building of Bosnalijek in the Blagoje Parovica Street. That street is now

4 called Paromlinska in this map.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness points at where the eastern and the

6 western part of the map are connected, where the basis of the marking is

7 on the eastern part of the map and whereas the flag appears on the western

8 part of the map.

9 Please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you show us the other part of the plan where you

12 have marked the command posts of certain units. And can you use the plan

13 to tell us about the command post that you have marked in this part of the

14 plan.

15 A. Yes, but it would more difficult to start with the 1st Corps as an

16 operational unit of the BH army. Its position was here --

17 JUDGE ORIE: The best way of proceeding that you indicate what

18 marking you'd like to be described by the witness so that you say "I draw

19 to your attention to the marking there and there, please point at it." If

20 you describe it first, and then ask the witness what it is.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Q. Mr. Bukva, you've marked with the letters 1K in a rectangle, and

23 below we have the letters KM. And to the right of that rectangle, there

24 is a little triangle. Can you tell us what this marking indicates?

25 A. It indicates the command post of the 1st BH army corps which was

Page 18345

1 in Danijela Ozme Street number 7.

2 Q. Do you know which building the command post was located in, the

3 Danijela Ozme Street number 7?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

5 MR. STAMP: I think counsel spoke of a triangle to the right of a

6 square when the witness was pointing to one adjoining and below the

7 square. I don't know which one the record should appropriately reflect.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It was my understanding that counsel was pointing at

9 a triangular-shaped part of a marking which is attached to the letters

10 KTC, I think it is, and then 100/112.

11 Then please proceed. I see that counsel confirms this by nodding.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. STAMP: But maybe we should clarify that with the witness.

14 The witness is not nodding. What I am indicating to the Court is that

15 counsel refers to one thing and the witness appears to be pointing to

16 another another.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact the witness was

18 explaining to us what was the meaning of the marking, the rectangular flag

19 1.K, and that counsel just by way of reference pointed at the triangular

20 shape which is not part of the marking the witness is explaining to us.

21 Is that correct, Ms. Pilipovic? And do I understand this to be

22 your understanding as well, Mr. Bukva?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. The triangle that you have spoken about and which indicates the

25 command post of the 1st Corps, is it connected to this flag above?

Page 18346

1 A. I think that this can be seen very clearly. There is a triangle

2 and a flag is attached to it, and it says 1.K on the flag. And this

3 triangle here indicates the exact position of the command of the 1st

4 Corps. So this is whole, this flag and this triangle constitute a whole.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So the witness is now pointing at a small triangle

6 which is the basis of the pole of the flag containing 1.K.

7 Please proceed.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Bukva, I asked you whether you knew which building the command

10 of the 1st Corps was located in.

11 A. It was a residential building which was across the road from the

12 presidency. And behind the building in which Jugo Banka was located. It

13 was in Danijela Ozme Street, number 7, Danijela Ozme street, a residential

14 building.

15 Q. Can you tell us how many floors that residential building had?

16 A. Well, I couldn't be precise, but I don't think that it had more

17 than six floors.

18 Q. Did you know which floor the command post was located on?

19 A. Mostly on the ground floor, but the command organs also used

20 certain flats for rest.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have marked the map with a triangle which

22 has a flag where it says "105 PBR." And below that it says KM?

23 A. Yes, that's this. It's the 105th Infantry Brigade which was

24 located in the Sipad building in Trampina Street. To the left you can see

25 a park and the street where the command post of the 105th Infantry Brigade

Page 18347

1 was located was there, it was in the Sipad building.

2 Q. When you say in the Sipad building, was that -- were those

3 business premises or were the Sipad premises within some sort of other

4 building? Can you tell us whether this Sipad building was a separate

5 building or was it part of some other building?

6 A. As far as I can remember, it's a separate building. And the

7 premises concerned were business premises, but it was in a part of the

8 town which was fairly densely inhabited. There were quite a few buildings

9 surrounding it.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bukva, between these two markings, there is a

11 circle, there is a triangular flag on it, and you have marked this with

12 the letters KM, 100/112.

13 A. I have to correct you. I apologise. This IDO/112. It can't be

14 very clearly seen on the map. It says IDO/112.

15 Q. Can you tell us about this circle with the triangular flag where

16 it says KM, IDO/112. Is this one single marking?

17 A. Yes, this is the combat position of the 112th Vitez Motorised

18 Brigade, and this is a reconnaissance and sabotage detachment, that's what

19 IDO stands for, which was located in the Danijela Ozme Street number 2 in

20 the Jugo Banka building. It's right across the road from the presidency

21 building. This is -- this reconnaissance and sabotage detachment had

22 about 140 men.

23 Q. If I've understood you correctly, you said it was part of the

24 Vitez Brigade.

25 A. The 112th Brigade.

Page 18348

1 Q. The 112th Brigade. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us what the triangle

2 is which has an arrow which points towards the south. There is also a

3 flag where it says GS, with a diacritic mark, and KM. Can you tell us

4 something about this.

5 A. This is the command post of the main staff of the BH army. It was

6 located in the presidency building, in the basement of that building.

7 Q. To the left, there's a triangle which has a flag, in which it says

8 1KM 102.

9 A. Again, a slight correction. This is IKM 102. This is the forward

10 command post of the 102nd Infantry Brigade which was located in the Valter

11 Peric buildings. The triangle indicates those buildings.

12 Q. When you say the Valter Peric buildings, can you be a little more

13 specific and tell us what sort of buildings are concerned.

14 A. These are the business premises of the BH electricity supply

15 network. They are in the vicinity of Skenderija.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bukva.

17 Could you please move the map on the ELMO so we can see the parts

18 we have not yet seen. Tell us about the triangle with the flag in which

19 it says 115th PBR, KM?

20 A. Yes, that's the command post of the 115th Infantry Brigade which

21 was located in Bistrik in the buildings of the former command of the JNA,

22 of the former JNA 4th Corps.

23 Q. Next to that marking, we can see a circle in which there is the

24 letter R. Can you tell us what R stands for. I have seen it elsewhere,

25 too.

Page 18349

1 A. This circle indicates the brewery buildings in which weapons and

2 ammunition workshop was located.

3 Q. To the right, we have a circle in which there is the letter N.

4 A. This circle indicates the tunnel at the main road from Sarajevo to

5 Pale above Bembasa in which there was a warehouse of ammunition and other

6 equipment of the BH army. I think this warehouse was under the direct

7 control and command of the main staff of the BH army.

8 Q. Above and to the right, we can see a triangle with a flag in which

9 it says "152 PBR" and below, the letters KM.

10 A. Yes, but I have to clarify something. I have to point out that

11 the map hasn't -- doesn't include the barracks of the former JNA, the so

12 called Jajce barracks, but I have marked it here. So it's perhaps a

13 little further to the right here, the barracks of the former JNA. The

14 Jajce barracks is a barracks in which the command post of the 152nd

15 Infantry Brigade was located. And a significant part of that brigade was

16 located in that barracks, was billeted in that barracks. Out of the

17 equipment in the barracks itself, they had two 105-millimetre Howitzers,

18 and two 120-millimetre mortars.

19 Q. On the map, we can see a circle and there is a triangular flag

20 attached to it and it says 1-115 in the flag and there's a primary school

21 below it.

22 A. Yes, but I have to clarify something. We had the 115th Brigade

23 here in Bistrik, and one of its battalions, this is 1-115. One of it's

24 battalions was in the primary school in the part of town called Hrid

25 [phoen]. This was here, at this crossroads here. And that's where the

Page 18350












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 18350 to 18358.













Page 18359

1 primary school was located. So all the men that were part of this

2 battalion were billeted in this primary school.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the map just be moved a bit upwards so that we

4 can -- no, a bit to the down so that... Yes.

5 Is that -- words written, is that B/C/S for primary school?

6 Skola, I do recognise, but not the first word.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Osnovni, which means primary.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Bukva, as far as I can see, in the right part of the map, you

11 have explained -- you have told us about all the markings you have made in

12 the right part of the map as far as I have been able to follow you.

13 A. I apologise. There is a part that we have skipped.

14 Q. Thank you. Please tell us about it. The letter R, and I can see

15 a circle, too.

16 A. Yes. That's at the corner where the tram turns towards the

17 railway station. It's the central technical engineering school. And

18 weapons and ammunition warehouse, workshop, was also located there. We

19 haven't mentioned this part either.

20 Q. The circle with the letter N --

21 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, for the sake of the transcript, the

22 witness pointed at an R which is at the beginning of the word Marin Dvor.

23 And I think the next location the witness intended to point at is to the N

24 in a circle just left of the R I mentioned a second ago. Please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 18360

1 Q. Sir, you have mentioned this circle and the letter N inscribed in

2 the circle. Can you tell us about this building? Does it have anything

3 to do with this circle and the letter N?

4 A. Yes, yes. You can see that it's the Marshal Tito barracks, the

5 former JNA barracks. That's the complex here. Here we have the

6 buildings, and here at the corner, we had the logistics part of the main

7 staff of the BH army. Weapons, ammunition, and other equipment, other

8 military equipment, was located here. That's in the right part of the

9 barracks, whereas in the left part of the barracks, there was the

10 Ukrainian battalion.

11 Q. The triangle with the little flag where it says Guard's Brigade

12 and KM below, what does this indicate?

13 A. This triangle with the flag indicates the command post of the

14 Guard's Brigade, which was attached to the main staff of the BH army. It

15 was a unit attached to the main staff of the BH army, and it was billeted

16 in this right part of the Marshal Tito barracks, just like the logistics

17 section.

18 Q. Mr. Bukva, the triangle with a flag in which it says "1 KM" and

19 102 below, what does that indicate and where was it located?

20 A. We've spoken about this already. It's the Valter Peric forward

21 command post.

22 Q. Thank you. As far as I have understood you, you have told us

23 about the right part of the map. I think that you haven't mentioned

24 something in the left part of the map, the letter R that we can see in a

25 circle below the word Nikolici?

Page 18361

1 A. This is a weapons and ammunition workshop located in the factory

2 of optical science.

3 Q. The lower part of the map, I've also noticed that there are two

4 markings in this part. There are circles in which we have the letter R.

5 A. This is also a weapons and ammunition workshop which was in

6 Dzemala Bijedica Street, number 144. It was located in the building of

7 the Astra factory.

8 Q. And to the left, we can also see the letter R in the circle.

9 A. Yes. It has to do with the same thing. Factory of weapons and

10 ammunition, and it was in the Zica factory.

11 Q. Mr. Bukva, if you can just show us the part of the map which I

12 believe we haven't seen yet, which is the area of Dobrinja. There is a

13 symbol of a triangle with the flag where it says 155 PBV, and below,

14 there's KM, if I am reading it correctly.

15 A. This is the command post of the 155th Infantry Brigade. This

16 command post was located at the Mitsubishi Avenue. I think it was in the

17 Sipad building. That's approximately here. And this brigade was

18 commanded by Ismet Hadzic. He used to live at the October Revolution

19 Street, and he also had a company of military police within his brigade.

20 Q. We can also see a smaller circle in this area, with a KM and a

21 smaller flag, and I don't know what you've written here above is in

22 relation to this symbol, to this circle. Or does it mean anything else so

23 that we avoid any confusion?

24 A. Yes, this is in relation to the circle with the triangle flag, and

25 it says KM, battalion Djerzelez. And this command post was at the

Page 18362

1 kindergarten, the building of the kindergarten on this location. Command

2 post of the battalion.

3 Q. Mr. Bukva, considering that you have a better overview of both

4 parts of the map of Sarajevo, can you tell us whether you have clarified

5 for us all locations that you marked on this map.

6 A. Yes, I think we've clarified all locations, except I'd like to

7 offer one other comment in relation to 155th Infantry Battalion. Apart

8 from the Djerzelez battalion, which was the assault and manoeuvre force of

9 this brigade, under the direct command of this brigade, there was another

10 battalion called El Fatah. And this battalion was composed of mujahedins,

11 of mujahedin only. And the command post of that battalion, I did not mark

12 it because it was frequently changed. It was -- this battalion was very

13 frequently in combat operations. And it wasn't stationed in Dobrinja all

14 the time.

15 Q. When it was in Dobrinja, can you tell us, if you know, where it

16 was stationed in Dobrinja when it was there?

17 A. Most of the time, in one of those facilities in the immediate

18 vicinity of the command post because I repeat, it was under the direct

19 command of the commander of this brigade.

20 Q. Mr. Bukva, as far as I have understood you from your markings, you

21 have marked on this map command posts of brigades. Did I understand you

22 correctly, except that in two places, you have marked a forward command

23 post, and here you have marked a command post of the battalion.

24 A. Yes, that's correct. I was led by the principle that in this way,

25 we can show the objectives of -- the targets of operative importance.

Page 18363

1 These were the combat dispositions that had its positions in different

2 facilities which were not military facilities. For instance, kindergarten

3 or primary school buildings.

4 Q. Did you have information at that time as to where the command

5 posts or battalions were and of other smaller units that were in the area

6 of responsibility of the 1st Corps?

7 A. Yes, yes. But I told you in the beginning that I have forgotten

8 things, and I couldn't be absolutely precise in listing them. These that

9 I have marked are certainly those that are the most important.

10 Q. Did you have information within brigades how many battalions there

11 were and lower units, smaller units, in the area of responsibility of the

12 brigade?

13 A. BH army was reorganised several times. And this was one of the

14 latest establishments of the army. The 1st Corps was reorganised into

15 three divisions. The corps commander was Brigadier Nedzad Ajhadzic. The

16 12th division was located in Sarajevo, and the commander was

17 Fikret Prevljak. The 14th division was located in Tarcin, and the 16th

18 division was located in Vares. This corps had as far as we knew about

19 30.300 soldiers. And they were distributed in eight brigades that we

20 showed on this map. And five independent units ranging from regiment to

21 brigade. As far as the organisation was concerned, it was a tripartite

22 organisation, and using some structure from the former JNA. That is, the

23 brigade had three infantry battalions, and the usual units attached to the

24 staff.

25 Q. Mr. Bukva, in the period 1992, 1993, did you know whether the area

Page 18364

1 of responsibility in the 1st Corps in the part of the city under their

2 control, were there any other units that were not subordinate to the

3 corps, but were active in that area? Did you have such information?

4 A. Yes, yes. I said at the beginning that in the city itself, there

5 were about 38.000 armed troops. Out of that, there were 30.300, or let's

6 say 31.000, were in the BH army units, were part of BH army units. And

7 several special units, special MUP units also existed in Sarajevo, in the

8 part of Sarajevo under Muslim control. And we assessed that these troops

9 amounted to the strength of one brigade. And they were made up of special

10 units like the special detachment Laste or swallows. Then another unit

11 called Biseri, that is, pearls, and some others I don't recall.

12 Q. Mr. Bukva, before the break, you told us about the forward command

13 post in Lukavica. Can you tell us, in the period relevant for the

14 Defence, do you have any information whether there were other forward

15 command posts in certain locations during this period? And if there were

16 any --

17 A. Yes, depending on the situation on the front, the commander would

18 side and would, therefore, order the establishment of a forward command

19 post at a given location, at a given part of the front. If there is a

20 need for that, if the situation made it necessary in order to conduct the

21 operations and -- of command and also in order to follow the situation

22 more easily. And so we did have those needs, and occasionally, we would

23 establish a forward command post in Trnovo, in Butile, Vogosca, Nisic

24 plateau or Nisic Visoravan.

25 Q. When you say that these forward command posts were established

Page 18365

1 depending on the need, and then those forward command posts, the corps

2 commander would be, can you tell us, when you say that the situation would

3 make it necessary for this to happen, can you tell us how long would then

4 a commander have to be there? According to your recollection, at those

5 command posts, for how long would a commander need to be at one of those

6 locations? I know that you said this would depend on the situation, but I

7 was wondering if you could tell us how long that would be, would that be

8 one month, two months, or one day, two days?

9 A. The establishment of the forward command post would be decided on

10 by the commander for the reasons that I have already explained. And most

11 of the time, this occurred because there would be an attack of Muslims

12 units on a certain part of the front. This forward command post,

13 therefore, existed as long as it was necessary. And most of the time,

14 that would be 10 to 15 days until the situation on the front would

15 stabilise. In some areas, that would last longer. For instance, at Nisic

16 plateau or in Trnovo.

17 Q. When you say at certain locations longer, at Nisic plateau and

18 Trnovo, can you tell us what period this was, between September 1992 and

19 August 1994?

20 A. Yes, that would be in 1993, from July -- say from about August

21 until July. So approximately a year.

22 Q. Mr. Bukva, you told us in the barracks that we saw on the

23 videorecording, you said that you saw General Galic there, and that you

24 attended meetings that were held at the command. Did I understand you

25 correctly?

Page 18366

1 A. Yes. As a head of the intelligence section, during the absence of

2 the chief for intelligence and security, I would go in his place, and I

3 would take part in the work of the corps command.

4 Q. Can you tell us, how many such meetings, such official meetings,

5 so to speak, did you attend? And we're talking about the period from when

6 the General was there until he left.

7 A. In percentages, that would be about 30 per cent. Attended about

8 30 per cent of meetings, 20 to 30 per cent of meetings.

9 Q. Can you tell us, at those meetings, those morning meetings, who

10 attended?

11 A. The way that the corps command worked, the commander made it an

12 obligation to have a morning meeting, and this was an extensive meeting.

13 And its objective was that the organs of the command learn about the

14 situation on the front in the previous 12 hours, of the previous night.

15 Those organs of the command and the commander at the beginning of the

16 meeting would be informed on the basis of written reports that arrived at

17 the operations centre. As the meeting went on, on the basis of reports

18 that came from subordinate units, commander made certain decisions and

19 issued some orders, and they were in relation to the problems that the

20 subordinate units formulated in their reports. These were mostly matters

21 of logistics support, of MTS, materiel and technical equipment, fuel,

22 ammunition, clothes, footwear, et cetera.

23 Q. At one point, when you were talking about the morning meetings,

24 you said that these were extensive meetings of the command. Can you tell

25 us whether at those meetings that you call the extensive meetings, did the

Page 18367

1 chief for the -- cooperation with UNPROFOR also attend and the operations

2 officer?

3 A. I have just explained that the duty operations officer had a task

4 and a duty to inform the organs of the command about the situation in the

5 units, while the officer, the chief of the cooperation, that is liaison

6 officer with UNPROFOR, he did not attend these meetings.

7 Q. I wanted this clarification precisely so that I could ask a

8 question in relation to the extensive composition of the command. Did it

9 mean that there were other types of meetings or other meetings which did

10 not encompass the extensive command structure?

11 A. Yes, yes, although these were rare meetings. But the close

12 command, the corps command, that would be the chief of staff, that would

13 be assistant commander for intelligence and security, and assistant

14 commander for religion, morale, and legal matters.

15 Q. Mr. Bukva, you told us that at those more extended meetings, the

16 duty operations officer reported on the situation in the area of

17 responsibility of the corps on the basis of written reports received from

18 subordinate units. Can you tell us, what was included in those reports by

19 subordinate units when we're talking about the situation in the certain

20 area of responsibility of those subordinate units?

21 A. These were done according to a form, these reports. The first

22 item, the report would be the situation in the units. That is in the area

23 of responsibility of the units. Under that item, item 1, the subordinate

24 command would report on enemy activity, on the operations that were

25 undertaken, on fire, on the targets that were fired on by the enemy, and

Page 18368

1 also the consequences suffered by our forces.

2 Q. Do you know whether the duty operations officer informed the

3 command also about the -- when the cease-fire -- about the violations of

4 the cease-fires in those reports?

5 A. Yes, yes, that would be included in the first item of the report

6 where the subordinates would inform about the enemy fire and the enemy

7 operations.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

9 like to show the witness a document that we disclosed to the Prosecution.

10 And this is D1235. Exhibit D1235.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, could you please assist

12 Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I tried to give all of these to

14 the interpreters, although some of them have been translated.

15 Q. Mr. Bukva, this document has a first page which is in B/C/S. Do

16 you have it? I can see it on the ELMO. You're looking at the B/C/S text.

17 Can you tell us, do you recognise this document?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I said. The usual form of a daily report, regular

19 daily report. That would be the commander of the Rajlovac Infantry

20 Brigade.

21 Q. This document in the top left corner has a date.

22 A. November the 7th, 1992.

23 Q. This was sent to?

24 A. It was sent by the command of the Rajlovac brigade, to the command

25 of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and there is also the signature of the

Page 18369

1 commander of this brigade.

2 Q. Can you please read under item 1, does it say below that that this

3 is a regular daily report, November 7 the situation until 6.00 p.m.

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Can you please read Item 1/1.

6 A. "At 12.30, in defence area at Spajic farm in Brijesce, 12 rifle

7 grenades fell on to this area fired from the direction of Centrotrans and

8 Brijesko Brdo and there weren't any serious consequences. Also during the

9 afternoon, the enemy fired snipers, from snipers on our positions in

10 barracks of Brijesce. There were not any consequences."

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bukva, this report, is this report telling us that

12 in the area of this brigade, that there were operations, that there was

13 firing activity?

14 A. Yes, operations by Muslim forces.

15 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us, in your opinion, first of all, how

16 long did you spend in this area? When I say "how long did you spend

17 there," I mean in the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija

18 Corps in the period from the 6th of September until the 10th of August?

19 A. In general, in the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija

20 Corps, I was there almost constantly except for a brief period of time

21 when I went to visit my family. To be precise, this meant that -- again,

22 depending on the situation, but on average, after two months at the corps,

23 I would go and visit my family for seven days. I did not have any other

24 periods of leave outside of the area of responsibility of the corps on any

25 other basis.

Page 18370

1 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, how frequently were combats in the

2 area of responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and how intense were

3 these battles?

4 A. There were very rare situations where there was no fighting,

5 whether there were no operations in the area of responsibility of the

6 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. Regardless of several signed cease-fires signed

7 by both sides, most frequently cease-fire that was signed would be

8 violated by the Muslim side. And so the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was very

9 specific in this sense, meaning that it was engaged in combat almost

10 incessantly, in combat to a higher or lesser degree. But operations were

11 ongoing.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

13 like to show the witness document Exhibit Number D719.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, I have been wondering for the

15 last two minutes of your questions what new elements you tried to elicit

16 from this witness, apart from the many testimonies we heard from other

17 witnesses, that there was a frequent combat activities and that

18 cease-fires were violated by the Muslim side is not an issue that I hear

19 for the first time, to just say it very gently. So would you please

20 perhaps especially concentrate on what this witness could add. Of course,

21 I'm not saying that if there are important points where he could confirm

22 earlier evidence that you couldn't ask him about it, but especially what

23 he would add to your case.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the report the

25 Defence showed to the witness, the date is 7th of November, 1992. And for

Page 18371

1 this date, we had testimony of witnesses -- there were witnesses who said

2 that it was peaceful that day, that there was no firing. And --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The last two minutes of your questions were not

4 specific to that date. And it was not clear to me what you wanted to

5 demonstrate. Your question, the first one of these two minutes, can you

6 tell us how frequently were the combats in the area of responsibility of

7 the SRK and how intense were these battles, which is a very general

8 question. I'm not asking, seeking now clarification. The witness has

9 answered your questions. But could you please keep in mind the level of

10 relevance of the issues you're raising.

11 Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But I just have

13 to clarify that the witness was speaking about a report for the previous

14 12 hours of the 7th of November, 1992. And this is the document dated 7th

15 of November, 1992. So in this report, in this report, the corps command

16 is informed that in the area, as the witness read out, that there were

17 combat operations and that there was firing as it says in the report from

18 snipers, from sniper weapons.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, I do not want to enter into a

20 debate, one of your questions was about a period of September to August

21 and not specific. When I am referring to the two minutes, I'm referring

22 to general information and not on your specific questions on the report,

23 which I do understand that you want to elicit information from that. But

24 the last two minutes were rather general and not specific for that period.

25 Let's not spend any more time on it. I asked you to keep that in mind,

Page 18372

1 and I am convinced that you will try to do so.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you have report number 720 dated the 25th of June, 1993?

4 A. Of the 25th of June, 1993.

5 Q. I apologise. 25th of June, 1993.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Bukva --

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Ms. Pilipovic, I'm sorry, but it is 719.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Bukva, is the date of this report the 25th of June, 1993?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Could you read out item 1 of this report.

15 A. It's a report that the SRK command sends. It's a regular report

16 that it sends to the main staff.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: The Prosecution objects to the use of these documents.

19 There is a general objection in respect to the authenticity of these

20 documents that the Defence has not established. And there's a specific

21 objection as to -- that the Defence has not laid a foundation of the

22 witness's knowledge as to the facts of the contents of these documents,

23 testifying to the contents of these documents.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The first question is to the authenticity. I know

25 that the matter has been raised by the Prosecution. Until now, the

Page 18373

1 Chamber usually has allowed questions in respect of these documents. But

2 the second part, specific knowledge of the witness in respect of these

3 documents, could you please try to find the basis for that,

4 Ms. Pilipovic.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Bukva, before I showed these documents to you, you told us

7 that you attended morning meetings and that the duty officer reported on

8 the situation with regard to 12-hour period to the command at these

9 morning meetings. Have I understood you correctly?

10 A. Yes, that was one way I had of becoming familiar with the contents

11 of these reports. But in addition, as the chief of the intelligence

12 department, I also participated to a certain extent in providing elements

13 that were used for compiling such reports. So I was certainly in a

14 position to be aware, to be familiar, with the contents of these reports.

15 Q. You also say that you provided elements used to compile the

16 reports. Can you tell us which -- what kind of information you provided

17 on the basis of which such reports were compiled? Could you provide us

18 with an example.

19 A. I said I did participate to a certain extent. I provided certain

20 information on the enemy, above all. And that was my main task in

21 general. Information on the enemy, the enemy's purposes, targets, et

22 cetera.

23 Q. Mr. Bukva, do you recognise this kind of report?

24 A. Yes, absolutely.

25 Q. Is this a regular combat report for the 25th of June, 1993, at

Page 18374

1 1700 hours?

2 A. Yes, that can be seen.

3 Q. Under item 1 of this report, does it say, under item 1, enemy

4 during the day, the enemy violated cease-fire agreements in the following

5 manner --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I'm afraid I am a bit lost. When you

7 were talking about reports, Ms. Pilipovic referred to duty officers'

8 reports on the situation with regard to 12-hour periods to the command at

9 these morning meetings. Did I understand you correctly that this was

10 reports to the commander of the SRK?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, when you were asked to a provide a

13 basis for the knowledge of the witness, you asked him about reports and

14 whether he was familiar with it, et cetera, et cetera. I understood this

15 to me, and this was confirmed now by the witness, to be reports to the

16 commander of the SRK. What you are showing us now seems to be a report by

17 the command of the SRK to the headquarters of the VRS, which is as far as

18 my knowledge goes is a different type of report. So I'm a bit confused as

19 to laying the basis for the knowledge of the witness by reports to the SRK

20 command where you confront us now, as far as I can see, with a report

21 which at least reads that it's signed by the commander to the VRS staff.

22 So I'm -- perhaps you could solve my problem of understanding the

23 question.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. The first

25 report that the witness recognised was a report from the command of the

Page 18375

1 Light Infantry Brigade Rajlovac which was forwarded to the command of the

2 SRK. The second report which the witness has also recognised is a report

3 which was forwarded to the VRS main staff.

4 Q. Mr. Bukva, can you tell us whether the regular combat reports

5 which were compiled in the command of the SRK were reported to the main

6 staff of the VRS?

7 A. Yes. As I have just said, I just explained how it was possible

8 for me to be familiar with the contents of such reports. I provided

9 certain elements from my own field or my department's fields. And because

10 of this, I was in a position to be familiar with the contents of such

11 reports.

12 Q. The report that you have in front of you, D719 dated the 25th of

13 June, 1993, does this report contain a summary of all the information that

14 the duty officer received in the corps command? So from all subordinate

15 units?

16 A. Yes, that's correct. This is a collection of reports from

17 subordinate units.

18 Q. When it says in reports of this kind that the enemy violated

19 cease-fire agreements, does this explain that the violations took place in

20 the SRK zone of responsibility?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Does item 1, therefore, state which positions are concerned? Does

23 it state where the cease-fire agreement was violated, at which positions

24 it was violated?

25 A. Yes, it does.

Page 18376

1 Q. If it says that action was taken in the Dobrinja area, in the

2 Pretis area, the Rajlovac Light Infantry Brigade, the Sokolj reservoir,

3 the Nedzarici settlement, and the infantry weapons and rifle-launched

4 grenades and occasionally 82 mortars were used to shell these areas, do

5 the contents of item 1 summarise the reports made in the course of the day

6 from all the subordinate units with regard to the area where the

7 cease-fire agreement was violated?

8 A. Yes, exactly.

9 Q. If in the course of that day or during that period, a cease-fire

10 was in force, a cease-fire that had been signed was in force, does this

11 report state that there was fighting, that there was shooting in the

12 corps's zone of responsibility in the course of that day?

13 A. Yes, exactly. We characterise such action as provocative action

14 on the part of the enemy. And usually, this action wasn't responded to,

15 and the commanders of the subordinate units emphasised this fact.

16 Q. You say that there was no response to this action. Can you tell

17 us why there was no response to such action on the part of the Muslim

18 army?

19 A. Well, we considered this kind of action to be provocative, as I

20 have already said. And on numerous occasions, it was possible to see that

21 they wanted to provoke a reaction on our part. And they would then take

22 advantage of this in the media, and as a rule, the Serbian side would be

23 accused of having violated the cease-fire. Since we were aware of these

24 propaganda tricks that the enemy used, I know that the commander insisted

25 and encouraged his subordinate commanders not to fall for such tricks.

Page 18377

1 And the subordinate commanders respected these instructions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, looking at the clock, I would think

3 that it would be time --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can have a break

5 now.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes. Ms. Pilipovic,

7 if my bookkeeping is correct, you spent a little bit over two and a half

8 hours in examination-in-chief until now, and I think you scheduled four

9 hours for it.

10 Yes, we'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it you who is going to proceed?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I have the impression

15 that there will be a change with your permission.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

17 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, in order to save time -- I would like to

19 say thank you, first of all. In order to save time -- I would like to say

20 good day first of all. But I'm going to show you some documents, and I

21 would appreciate it if you could examine each document and to tell us

22 whether you recognise the documents, and whether as far as the contents

23 are concerned the dates are correct and whether there was a large-scale

24 fighting such as it is described. Have you understood this?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18378

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the

3 assistance of the usher, we will use several documents at the same time.

4 There are several of them. I will give you a list. Could you please

5 distribute them. The dates we are interested in concern some of the

6 incidents mentioned in the indictment.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that your question to

8 the witness is whether he can confirm the combat activities as described

9 in the documents in the -- at the locations described in the documents?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

11 Q. Witness, could you have a look at the documents while we are

12 waiting, please. Please take a look at the documents.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Mr. Usher, I think it is not

14 necessary to have all the documents put on the ELMO, please. It is not

15 necessary.

16 [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know if the registrar has

17 the -- had the time to distribute all the documents, but I don't think so.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We have received three now. And perhaps you start

19 with any of these three and I take it that the --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I wanted to move

21 on more rapidly, but we'll manage like this, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, take any one of the documents and please give me the

23 date.

24 A. The document dated the 13th of November, 1993.

25 Q. Thank you. The document in question is Document Number 1144.

Page 18379

1 First of all, do you recognise this document? Do you recognise the date

2 and the fighting that is mentioned in the document?

3 A. As I said, this is a regular combat report from the corps command.

4 It went to the main staff of the VRS army. It's a standard type of

5 document. It mentions the action that enemy took towards Ilidza, Hadzici,

6 Rajlovac, Grbavica, et cetera. Given that it's written on the basis of

7 reports from subordinate commanders, the contents under item 1 are true.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please take a second document --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask for a clarification of

10 the witness.

11 How do I have to understand your answer, that you say, "well, it

12 is the usual type of document which was drafted on the basis of reports,

13 and therefore I take it that the contents will reflect reality," or are

14 you telling us I have a personal, specific remembrance of what happened on

15 the 13th of November, and therefore I can confirm on the basis of that

16 that the information contained in this document is a true reflection of

17 what happened on the ground?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember one event in particular

19 on the basis of which I can link this to the other events. This has to do

20 with a Browning opening fire from Muslim positions, firing on Mojmilo at

21 the Lukavica crossroads. I know that on that occasion, a woman was

22 wounded at the crossroads.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, when you answer the questions, indicate as

24 you did it now, that you say there is a specific point on which I have

25 personal recollection of this element of the report, that it took place.

Page 18380

1 I know that from my personal experience. Would you please always indicate

2 that, and that would then distinguish the confirmation in more general

3 terms. You say: "This is the type of report, and I know how they were

4 drafted, and therefore I take them to reflect the events, although I did

5 not have any specific personal recollection or -- in mind."

6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. With your

8 permission, I would like to ask for a necessary clarification.

9 Q. Witness, in response to a question from the Chamber, you said that

10 a woman was wounded it appears at the crossroads. My question is as

11 follows: Was this woman a member of the army corps, or was she a

12 civilian?

13 A. No, no. She was a civilian.

14 Q. Thank you. Why was she wounded?

15 A. The crossroads mentioned --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: The question "why she was wounded" is really asking

18 the witness to speculate about things which he would not know about.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- well, you couldn't say that.

20 Usually Defence have many causes. I take it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you

21 are interested to know one or more of these causes. Would you please

22 specify in such a way. And I take it -- unless you have specific reasons

23 to ask about the intent of those who might have caused the injury. Please

24 proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 18381

1 Q. Witness, with regard to this incident, this civilian woman who was

2 wounded and whom you yourself have mentioned, can you tell us what

3 happened, in what circumstances it happened, was she accompanied by

4 soldiers, was she on her own, et cetera, et cetera.

5 A. Well, the crossroads -- this happened at the crossroads. And as

6 far as I can remember, it was at about 1.00 in the afternoon. The witness

7 I spoke to, and I remember this, claimed that the woman was walking on her

8 own at the crossroads. She was alone.

9 Q. But was she involved in some sort of event, some sort of military

10 event, although she was alone? She could have found herself in the midst

11 of an exchange of fire, et cetera, et cetera. What do you know about

12 this?

13 A. No. As far as I can remember, it was a fairly peaceful day. And

14 the fire opened from the enemy Browning, from this position, was not

15 something that was customary.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have confirmed this. I would now like

17 you to take another document, and could you give us the date of the

18 document, please. Which document do you have in front of you?

19 A. The document is dated the 12th of March, 1993.

20 Q. So my question is the same: Again, do you recognise this type of

21 document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. And as far as the description of the fighting is

24 concerned --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I have a document 12th of March, 1994. Is that the

Page 18382

1 document you had in mind?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's Document Number 542.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's it. Please proceed.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 Q. And what can you tell us about the fighting that was ongoing at

6 the time?

7 A. Here they mention enemy action, which was customary. And there is

8 nothing here that I could confirm, that I could fully confirm, nothing

9 under item 1 of this document. But the -- this kind of action happened so

10 frequently that it's almost impossible to remember something concrete and

11 to confirm what has been mentioned under item 1, what has been alleged

12 under item 1.

13 Q. Very well. Witness, you mentioned frequent occurrences. You

14 mentioned something that happened very often with regard to item 1. Would

15 you also include sniper activity that is mentioned there? I'm speaking

16 about the frequency.

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you please take the third document, put

19 this on the side. Can you tell us the date so that we can find it.

20 Please.

21 A. The date of this document is 9th of January, 1994.

22 Q. Very well. So I'm asking you the same question again.

23 A. Yes, it says here that the enemy was involved in provocation, and

24 this is precisely what I told you a moment ago. And the sectors that the

25 enemy was firing from, these are very well known to me. And it is true

Page 18383

1 that the enemy fired from infantry or artillery weapons very frequently

2 from there. There was sniper fire on Vrace, Dobrinja, Grbavica, and

3 Dobrinja.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

5 MR. STAMP: I just rise to indicate to remind counsel and the

6 Court whether the witness could indicate whether he speaks of these things

7 from his knowledge or he is just regurgitating what he reads in the

8 documents.

9 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I understand the answer of the witness,

10 unless he specifically points at personal experience, he is merely

11 reproducing the text and perhaps gives his comments on whether this

12 was -- these were usual events or whether it would surprise him, this to

13 have happened.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wish to

15 say is that there is a sentence that was translated into English. In any

16 case, the second -- "known to me." These are very well known to me. This

17 is what the witness said: "These are very well known to me" So he is

18 speaking about these areas in time of war. We are not asking him whether

19 today whether these areas are different. So I believe that this is how he

20 expressed his personal position, as to what he recalls. But I can of

21 course ask the question again in a different way.

22 Q. Witness, please, when you tell us what you just told us, is this a

23 personal knowledge that you have of this, or is it something else?

24 A. Here I think I can link it to a memory. I believe that the date

25 is linked to one of the attempts to cut off communication, that is the

Page 18384

1 road between Lukavica and Pale. It is one of the unsuccessful attempts by

2 the Muslim side that took place in the area of Zlatiste.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

5 transcript, the previous document -- the previous document was 542. And

6 the current document, this is 1631.

7 Q. Witness, can you please take another document and we can do the

8 same exercise again. Tell us the date, and then tell us if you recognise

9 it.

10 A. The date is 17th of April, 1993.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the record,

12 this is Document 588.

13 Q. Witness, do you recognise it?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Thank you. What about the contents?

16 A. I cannot specifically recall the events because after all, this

17 was ten years ago. But I believe that they reflect what really happened.

18 Q. On the level of the information, the influx of information which

19 was internal, is there any imaginable situation whereby a false

20 information would be given? Could this have occurred? In this document,

21 could it have been something that was falsely given?

22 A. As far as reporting of the subordinate is concerned -- of the

23 superior is concerned, the duty of the subordinate is to enter into the

24 report well-checked details, authentic information. Otherwise --

25 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please take another document. Can

Page 18385

1 you tell us the date, please.

2 A. 11th of July, 1993.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

4 transcript, document is D825.

5 Q. And the same exercise, sir, please. Do you recognise this

6 document?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Thank you. Item 1, in relation to provocation or attacks of the

9 enemy.

10 A. Considering the date, I remember that in July, I stayed for about

11 five days on this part of the front. I remember that there was an intense

12 infantry attack by the enemy on some parts of the Zuc elevation. And that

13 was in the area of responsibility of the Vogosca Brigade. And I remember

14 that there were casualties, there were people who were killed. I don't

15 remember their names, but I remember that we had casualties. I am certain

16 that this is precisely this that was mentioned in this report, 11th of

17 July.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you tell us about the casualties

19 that you suffered. In fact, you even said "on our side." That is the

20 reason why I'm asking you the question. Do you mean on your side in terms

21 of military side, or do you mean civilian victims -- and civilian victims

22 or just civilian victims?

23 A. Considering this event, these were troops, these were soldiers,

24 because combat operations occurred outside the open area.

25 Q. Thank you very much. In the same period that we are looking at,

Page 18386

1 do you know if bearing in mind this offensive, there were also reactions,

2 tensions, exchanges of fire in other areas? And I am asking this in

3 relation to Dobrinja.

4 A. Considering that I was in the area of responsibility of the

5 Vogosca Brigade, and considering that I know about this event, I presume

6 that the other information included in item -- in this item are also

7 correct. But I was not in a position to see this for myself considering

8 that I was in a completely other area of the area of responsibility of the

9 corps.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, can you please take another

11 document and tell us the date.

12 A. Document dated 24th of July, 1993.

13 Q. Very well. I have the same question again in relation to this

14 form.

15 A. Yes, the form is recognisable.

16 Q. What about the date? Does it remind you of anything?

17 A. Yes, it reminds me, this being the date of the Lukavac Operation,

18 Lukavac 1993.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will come back to that very

20 briefly.

21 Mr. President, for the transcript, this is D837 exhibit.

22 Q. Witness, in relation to item 1, the enemy actions, et cetera, what

23 can you tell us about this, the provocation and so on?

24 A. So this is Operation Lukavac 1993. At approximately this period

25 of time, I was myself in the area of Mount Igman where, in the area of

Page 18387

1 Malo Polje located on Mount Igman, we had fierce clashes with enemy

2 forces, enemy forces coming from the direction of Tresnjevo Brdo and

3 Brezovaca. So this is the event I recall. Also the other activities,

4 that is, operations that are listed here, did take place because the enemy

5 from the part of town under Muslim control operated, fired, on a daily

6 basis, predominantly with snipers -- or from snipers in order to get the

7 pressure off their forces at Mount Igman which were retreating.

8 Q. Witness, considering we are not speaking the same language, you

9 can go a bit faster with your answers. Thank you very much.

10 You're talking about combat activities. I can see that there is a

11 sniper activity which provoked a civilian. Can you tell us something

12 about that that you recall.

13 A. No, I don't. No, I don't recall that. I don't recall that, but

14 the civilian is a victim, is a casualty here.

15 Q. Very well. If you don't recall, that's very well. You told us

16 that these were authentic documents in their contents. Therefore, when

17 there was firing in the direction of Grbavica, did you know, you, who were

18 in charge of intelligence services, what were the areas that sniper fire

19 was coming from, from the other side?

20 A. It was very hard to identify these places.

21 Q. Why was that?

22 A. Because a sniper who is a marksman is first of all well

23 camouflaged. He is well hidden. He also has a special weapon, specialist

24 weapon, mostly it is a rifle with a silencer. And most of the time, he

25 would only fire once from one position.

Page 18388

1 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know if the enemy party had -- the

2 enemy side had such equipment in order to facilitate this -- technical

3 equipment to facilitate this for their troops? Do they have, for

4 instance, optical sights, optical equipment to do this?

5 A. It's difficult to give a brief answer to this question, but I will

6 do my best. So first of all, the enemy certainly had at their disposal

7 quite a high quality equipment, sniping equipment, that is, rifle and

8 optical sight. Moreover, we shouldn't forget that it was under their

9 control that the factory, Zrak, was, and this is the factory that produced

10 such optical devices. So the fact itself that there was a special unit in

11 charge only of sniping, they were called "Seve," this says enough about

12 the importance and the attention that was had and given by the Muslim army

13 to that part of their activities. That would be my answer.

14 Q. Thank you very much. I'm going to come back to another one of

15 your answers. You said that it was very hard for several reasons to

16 determine the place, that there was camouflaging of the position, that

17 they would also use a silencer when sniping, and also that they would be

18 changing places. So you're saying that the sniper, if I understood you

19 correctly, would only use one location once. Is that correct? Did I

20 understand you correctly? I believe in the transcript, that's what you

21 were saying, that a sniper would fire from one position once, and would

22 then change position. Is that correct?

23 A. In some literature which deals with these matters, among other

24 things, I read that this was the golden rule of sniping.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I'm going to stop you here.

Page 18389

1 Why was that? What was the reason? Why is this a golden rule?

2 A. Well, I can just elaborate briefly in my answer. This happened in

3 the battle of the old town. Because of sniping activity, the rule is

4 applied today. Because a real sniper, a professional, would only fire

5 once. And the reason for that would be that the sniper wouldn't be

6 spotted, and then killed himself.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction: The battle of

8 Stalingrad.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Q. Witness, you're telling us about Stalingrad. This takes us back

11 somewhat. But what you're telling us of Stalingrad, is this something

12 that can be applied in the city of Sarajevo?

13 A. Well, this parallel couldn't be applied fully, couldn't be drawn

14 fully, but there are many elements that could be.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, what would be the consequence if a

16 sniper found a spot, a location, which was perfectly convenient for his

17 activity, for the shooting, and if he then proceeded to make this his own

18 nest, referring to what -- the term we use? Now, in military technique,

19 if a sniper shoots systematically from the same location, and I'm talking

20 about the reaction from the opposing side, what would happen then?

21 A. If such a --

22 MR. STAMP: At this point, I have tried not to rise. But the

23 witness had indicated already that he's speaking from literature that he

24 has read and he went on to indicate that he's drawing analogies from

25 Stalingrad. We are now exploring his personal knowledge of sniping or are

Page 18390

1 we exploring his knowledge of literature or history in respect to sniping?

2 Perhaps that could be clarified.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, here we are

4 dealing with an officer with a lot of experience who, contrary to all of

5 us, has lived through the events of Sarajevo. And unfortunately not like

6 all of us, he's read about what's happened in Stalingrad. And he

7 certainly has first hand experience --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please, if you ask the

9 witness about it, ask with such precision that we know what he's talking

10 about. So the question was about what one could expect the opposing party

11 to do if a sniper nest would be established. So there are two questions.

12 First is what in theory you would have to do; and the second question

13 would be what you experienced that was ever done in such a situation. And

14 then please describe that situation.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If enemy activity of a sniper

16 would be spotted, then the troops on the first line would on their own

17 initiative if they spotted him, they would then fire. They would shoot in

18 his direction in order to eliminate the target, eliminate the enemy

19 target.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please listen carefully to the question.

21 The question is about what is called a sniper's nest. And

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin explained what it is, that is a position where a sniper

23 felt such at ease that he would repeatedly fire from that position. What

24 would a military response be, I take it at least you want a military

25 response, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to such an established sniper nest?

Page 18391

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I was clear. If such a

2 target would be seen, observed, then it would be -- attempts would be made

3 to neutralise it with adequate fire.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Precisely. You're speaking of neutralisation with adequate fire.

6 Can you please give us a little more detail.

7 A. If I commanded a unit which was targeted by sniper fire, and if I

8 observed such a sniper, then I would try and have him neutralised with

9 adequate means as soon as possible. If we look at the features of the

10 location where the sniper is firing from, then I would use a tank fire

11 because I would want to make sure that he was neutralised, that this nest

12 was neutralised.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Would the same result be accomplished by a

14 lighter weapon? For instance, using something like smaller calibre

15 weapon, say 20 millimetre, or a heavy machine-gun, or some, say, weapons

16 using incendiary ammunition? Could the same be accomplished with those?

17 Yes or no.

18 A. Possible, possible, possible to have that.

19 Q. Thank you very much. To that extent, do you know if Sarajevo

20 forces had at their disposal weapons that could possibly destroy such

21 sniper facilities if there were any?

22 A. We did. Sarajevo Romanija Corps had such weapons to neutralise

23 any terrorist targets.

24 Q. I'm talking about the other side. Do you know if the Muslim side

25 had such weapons which would allow them to destroy, and this is a

Page 18392

1 theoretical question, to allow them to destroy possible sniper positions

2 if there were any?

3 A. If I understood you correctly, you are talking about if there were

4 any sniper positions on our side.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes, absolutely. They had such weapons.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, could you please take other documents

8 and carry out the same exercise with that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in the beginning you explained

10 that we had the theoretical knowledge of the witness and the practical

11 experience of the witness. So the next question I suggested be put to

12 him, whether he had any experience either that your forces would respond

13 to sniping fire from the opposite side, or that the opposite side, and not

14 limiting it to the Sarajevo area in the time we are discussing here, but

15 whether you ever were in a position where the forces you were in would

16 respond to sniper fire from the other side, or whether you ever

17 experienced that an opposing party would respond to sniping fire from the

18 force you were serving in, whether you have any practical experience?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No particular practical experience,

20 apart from the fact that I was personally targeted by a sniper on three

21 occasions. Fortunately, the sniper missed on each occasion. When fire is

22 opened in such situations, this is usually because of requests from men at

23 the front lines because if sniper activity can be observed, these are the

24 men who are in the best position to observe from which position sniper

25 fire is being opened. But I can't remember any particular situation.

Page 18393

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, could you please take another document and tell us the

4 date.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If I do not -- I had in one of your answers on this

6 document, that's the reason why I'm asking now because otherwise we have

7 to find that document, I remember that date because it was the operation

8 Lukavac 1993. Could you just very briefly explain what you understood to

9 be Operation Lukavac 1993.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's one of the

11 questions I was going to put later on, but we can do it now.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It was in relation for this document that the witness

13 told us. But if you're dealing with it at a later stage, that's fine --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, time is the

15 main problem. I'm trying to go fast but I think we will need a little

16 time tomorrow, too, since matters are not easy as we might think. Let the

17 witness respond to the question about the operation Lukavac 1993, and then

18 we shall carry on.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the document of the 24th

20 of July, 1993, which mentions these events, these events are familiar to

21 me because the operation Lukavac 1993 was ongoing at the time. I don't

22 know what interests you with regard to this operation. Could you be so

23 kind as to rephrase that question.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you briefly explain what the operation was

25 about. Because you mention it without explaining what it was.

Page 18394

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try and be brief. I think that

2 you know part of the response to this question. The operation Lukavac

3 1993 is an operation which was carried out in the wider area of the zone

4 of responsibility of the SRK. And it was led by the main staff of the

5 VRS, of the Republika Srpska army. Units from the entire area of

6 Republika Srpska participated in this operation. The operation was

7 carried out in order to improve the operative positions of the corps.

8 And it came to an end because of pressure from the international

9 forces and because of the Security Council decision, the UN Security

10 Council decision. I think that was on the 15th of August.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Could you take another document, please. And

13 give us the date. And do you recognise this type of document?

14 A. Yes. The date of the document is the 5th of August, 1993. And I

15 do recognise this type of document.

16 Q. Very well. Could you have a look at the contents, at what it says

17 about military action which is under item 1.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And during -- while we're

19 waiting, this document is D935.

20 A. I recognise the events in this document. That is to say, the

21 action taken against the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade. I think that

22 this was the first time the enemy used a 30 through 2 gun through the

23 Mojmilo hill. I apologise, a 20 through 3. That means a 20 millimetre

24 gun with 3 barrels. So this type of field gun hadn't been used until then

25 from the Mojmilo hill.

Page 18395

1 Q. Thank you. I'd be grateful if you could focus on an aspect which

2 I am interested in. It's the very first point, it's the very first

3 paragraph. It's the first line where the cease-fire violation is

4 mentioned. In the course of your testimony, you said that the enemy side

5 always violated these agreements. I would first of all like you to tell

6 us why and on what basis you can make such a claim. And then perhaps give

7 us one or two examples. Thank you.

8 MR. STAMP: Again, the witness is asked why he can make such a

9 claim. We have no foundation for this as to whether or not the claim or

10 the statement made in this document is the witness document.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You're asking why, Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Isn't Mr. Piletta-Zanin asking for the basis of

14 the claim? The claim is violations took place. It says why and on what

15 basis you can make such a claim? Isn't that an invitation to express

16 himself why he can tell us, on the basis of what, Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: That is not my interpretation of the question. The

18 question asks the witness to explain why he makes such a claim. If one

19 could make a claim like that, it would be different.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's how I understood the question. Let's hear the

21 answer from the witness, and then we'll see whether --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think in

23 French the question was very clear, if we were to pay attention to being

24 perfect with our languages, we should pay attention to the text. Thank

25 you.

Page 18396

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, nobody is perfect, not even the

2 Bench.

3 Could you please answer the question, that the enemy side always

4 violated these cease-fire agreements. Could you explain to us on the

5 basis of on what you could draw this conclusion.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer is quite simple: On the

7 basis of my personal experience and on the basis of the personal

8 information I had. And secondly, I would like to say that the Serbian

9 side was always in favour of truces. It was always in favour of peace,

10 and there are several reasons for this, one of the main ones being was

11 that the SRK were fairly tired from all the fighting and we quite simply

12 didn't have the force to respond to enemy provocations or attacks. In any

13 event, truces were suitable for us. We were in favour of truces. And we

14 respected each truce.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you. And this is my question last question, and then we

17 will conclude for this afternoon. Witness, this document refers to the

18 Kobilja Glava area which we can see at the end of item 1. Do you remember

19 military activity of any kind which may have happened in this area which

20 is called Kobilja Glava?

21 A. I can't remember this specific event.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, I

23 think it's time to adjourn and with your permission, we'll continue with

24 our examination of this witness tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I notice that there's

Page 18397

1 approximately half an hour left. Would you please keep that in mind when

2 continuing your examination-in-chief tomorrow.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We'll try to do so,

4 Mr. President. There have been a few interruptions which did not seem to

5 be absolutely necessary to us.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The level of interpretation has not been such -- of

7 such extraordinary nature that it would justify to depart from the time

8 claimed.

9 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same

10 courtroom. And may I instruct you, Mr. Witness, not to speak with anyone

11 about the testimony you have given in this Court and the testimony you're

12 still about to give in this Court. We'll adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow

13 morning.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

16 at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

17 the 28th day of January, 2003,

18 at 9.00 a.m.