1 Wednesday, 29 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.12 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon. This is Case
8 Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Before we resume, I first have to explain to you that we had some
11 technical problems, Mr. Bukva. Therefore, we couldn't start any earlier
12 than -- we had a delay of one hour. We'll have to consider how to
13 proceed, but it might be that we try to do with one break, and then
14 perhaps if there would be time a little bit longer, we have three hours
15 and three quarters of an hour until 7.00, so if that would be possible
16 with the translators and the technicians, we might see whether we can do
17 with one break, if necessary a break of 35 or even 40 minutes.
18 Then one remark for the Defence. The Defence is aware that
19 there's still a motion pending on the issuing of a subpoena for certain
20 witnesses. The Chamber has taken as the Defence might be aware of some
21 initiative in order to secure as good as possible the appearance of those
22 witnesses in this courtroom where the Chamber considered that subpoenaing
23 these witnesses might not be the most effective way of reaching the
24 result. So we hope that this will give the result that the Defence would
25 try to achieve.
1 Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you needed another few questions --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Very briefly, I asked Madam Registrar if we could have the map, please.
4 WITNESS: MILORAD BUKVA [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If Mr. Usher could put it on
8 the ELMO, please. We are particularly interested in the eastern part of
9 the map.
10 Yes, the eastern part. I said the eastern part. While what's on
11 the screen now is the western part. May I have the eastern side, please.
12 Could you please position the map in such a way that we can see the
13 furthest eastern part. Again, that's western part. So eastern part is
14 the opposite side of the western side. So if we can go further east,
16 JUDGE ORIE: The very right edge of the map.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And could we make sure that we
18 can see the lower part of that area, please. We can stop here. Thank
20 Very well.
21 Q. Witness, can you please look at this map carefully. Could we
22 please have the map a little up, please. Go a bit up with the map. Stop.
23 Stop here. Right, yes.
24 And if you can tell us -- I'm going to ask you two questions in
25 relation to this map. Can you tell us if on one hand you would wish to
1 add or modify something on this map, and my question is in relation to the
2 other map as well, the other side of the map that we had a look at a
3 moment ago, in relation to specifically --
4 MR. STAMP: Counsel doesn't need to go any further with the
5 question, could the witness be asked to remove his headphones or to step
6 outside -- or to leave the courtroom.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could the witness be escorted out of the
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will rephrase
10 the question so that the witness does not have to leave the courtroom.
11 With your leave, Mr. President, since the witness has already waited a
12 long time, with your leave, Mr. President, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, would your objection be about the subject
14 matter or --
15 MR. STAMP: Subject matter.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Subject matter. Then the witness has to leave the
18 Mr. Stamp, when the door is closed, please proceed.
19 MR. STAMP: The question proceeds by inviting the witness to add
20 or modify something that he might have put on the map. He was asked to
21 put what he knew on the map. He was asked questions about it subsequently
22 and this was still in chief. Not in cross-examination. In chief He was
23 asked questions in respect to a particular place, if he knew something
24 about a particular place, he said he could not recall anything further in
25 respect to that. In respect to positions on the map, nothing was asked in
1 cross-examination except a church and from where a video is taken.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we would say the church is not on this part of
3 the map.
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked the witness whether he would like to
5 add something to the map. Could you tell us how this comes up from the --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, that's why
7 I said immediately I wanted to rephrase my question. We believe that is
8 the reason why I wanted to start with the eastern part of the map. We
9 believe that the indjication or the marking done by the witness, and he was
10 asked a question regarding Lukavica, that is, to locate where Lukavica
11 was. So this was a question that came from the Prosecution, or the
12 question asked by your Chamber. But in any case, in the same movement, in
13 the same gesture, when he was circling about the church, he was asked a
14 question about Lukavica. Now, this map, Mr. President, shows Lukavica
15 very close to -- in between the eastern and the western part. That's why
16 I wanted first to have a look at the eastern part in its entirety, and
17 then I wanted to move very slowly towards the western part so he can tell
18 us if as he was doing the exercise he perhaps may well have made a mistake
19 by putting a cross where he had placed the cross. And we believe that he
20 had put the cross on the facility where it said electrotechnical faculty.
21 We all know the barracks of Lukavica are not located at the
22 electrotechnical faculty. So that is a technical error. And what we
23 wanted is for the witness to have a look at the map from east towards the
24 west in order to ask him a question if there was something that perhaps he
25 could add something from this observation, and then looking, examining the
1 map in its entirety from east to west.
2 And I would have asked the question precisely about whether this
3 was true, what he has put in, what he has marked on the map. And that
4 came from the cross-examination by the Prosecution.
5 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. STAMP: I did not ask the witness to locate Lukavica.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I did, as far as I remember. I asked the witness
9 when questioned about the position of the church, I asked him to indjicate
10 on the map where the position of the barracks, or at least the structures
11 shown on the video were located. So it -- but I have no... If the --
12 As a matter of fact, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it was not about barracks,
13 as I just said, but it was about from where the video has been taken.
14 Yes, and that as far as I understand is the logic tells us that was at
15 least from the premises of where the office of General Galic was situated.
16 I think if there are good reasons to believe that a mistake was
17 made, I'll ask the witness since it was my question --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wanted
21 to say was that on the eastern part of the map, we can see -- we can see
22 where it says "Lukavica" on the western part of the map -- the western
23 part of the eastern part of the map, that's what I wanted to say, is that
24 we can see very well that where the witness had placed the cross, the
25 contours of the buildings as they are drawn up do not correspond to what
1 we saw on the recording, on the video.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me do the following: I have this map with
3 the markings, but without the church and the last. I'll hand this to the
4 witness and ask him to point at where the video was taken. And since I
5 have not an eastern and a western, but I have combined them already, it
6 would be easier for the witness. So the witness may be brought into the
7 courtroom again. And could this map be shown to the witness.
8 Mr. Bukva, you can hear me again. You have not yet answered any
9 questions, so I remind you that you were still bound by the solemn
10 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony. And after I have
11 done so, could please that map be put, I'll give some instructions, a bit
12 more to the right and a bit more up. Yes, that's the wrong direction. I
13 should have said a bit more to the left, and a little bit down or up so
14 that the lower part appears. A bit more even. A bit more to the -- if
15 the map would be moved to the left so we get more side, yes a bit more
16 even. Yes a bit more. Yes, a bit more up, please. No, the map a bit
17 more up so that we see the lower part. Yes, that part.
18 Mr. Bukva, what you see now is the map as you have marked it
19 during the break. The markings you made in respect of the Orthodox church
20 and of the position from where the video was taken do not appear on this
21 map. Could you please point, first of all, at the Orthodox church. So if
22 the witness could be provided with the pointer, not with a pen. Yes. You
23 now have pointed at the Orthodox church which appears just --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- Next to the word Dobrinja and just above the word
1 Autobusna Stanica. Could you again point at the position from where the
2 video was taken. And if I understood your testimony well, you testified
3 that the video was taken from the premises close to the office of General
4 Galic, to be more precise, just at the corner of the building in which the
5 offices of General Galic were situated on the first floor. Would you
6 please point at that spot again on this map with the pointer.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think I know what
8 this is about. On this map, there is not a single building of the
9 barracks Slobodan Princip Seljo that has been put on this map. This is
10 the road which is the so-called Bjelo Polje Road. Along that road is the
11 barracks, that is, the fence of the barracks which takes this whole area
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, yesterday we saw some cars
14 driving on a road. Could you please point at what road that was.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is this road, Mr. President, this
16 road here. That is the main road. I believe it's the second-class road.
17 This road here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then may I ask you, so where you marked the map
19 yesterday, approximately where it reads "electrotechnical faculty" which I
20 take it stands for faculty, that that was a wrong marking?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, it's a mistake. I
22 really apologise because of the problem that I caused, but I was obviously
23 careless, and possibly I was a little tired. So I apologise again for
24 causing this.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Your apologies are accepted.
1 Mr. Bukva, then, could you please indjicate with the pointer where
2 approximately, although buildings are not reflected in this map, that
3 where approximately at the side of this road the barracks could be found
4 from where the video was taken.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, that will be a
6 very rough way of doing it, but knowing the ground, I will try to do it as
7 precise as possible. But it will be this area here.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So the witness now points at an area which is
9 approximately a quarter of a centimetre to the right of a yellow road that
10 goes from point 527 to 5.8 of the map, and it is approximately 1 to 1 and
11 a half centimetre to the right of where he marked on the map the Orthodox
12 church was.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness, I think that perhaps we could ask for -- no, not
16 necessary. Thank you.
17 Witness, yesterday you said also as a follow up to the questions
18 of the Prosecution and other questions what happened when there was fog.
19 I think that was on page 63, if my memory doesn't fail me. And the
20 question I wanted to ask you is the following: Your answer, and you will
21 say this is probably normal, your answer did not seem very clear to me. I
22 would like you to tell us very precisely what you heard that was said as
23 far as the sentry is concerned, the guards. If there is fog, and if the
24 guards believe to see or not see what's in front of them, what was their
25 position in relation to the opening of fire? And we're speaking about the
1 crossing of the runway, of the airport runway.
2 A. I think I was precise. My answer was, and I'm going to repeat it
3 now, yesterday what I said is that if the soldiers were speaking on the
4 line, were talking on the front line, the positions, if there was fire
5 that is fired from our positions, and if there was a response from the
6 runway, then our soldiers would fire on the target spotted. If this did
7 not occur, that is, if the response on the other side did not occur, then
8 our soldiers would not open fire. And according to what they said, they
9 did not do that. I believe that's what I said yesterday.
10 Q. Very well. But you spoke of a kind of cunning that you used at
11 war, and you said that if a soldier believed that he could see something
12 vaguely through the fog, and he wouldn't know what that was, that he would
13 then employ a kind of cunning. Could you please describe what was that
14 trick that they used? Could you please state that clearly.
15 A. Well, I gave you the example that fire would be opened up in the
16 air if people were spotted, that was what was done. And if there was a
17 response from the other side, obviously response in firing, then it would
18 be obvious that these were enemy soldiers that were firing.
19 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, witness, I'd like you now, and it is
20 probably going to be our last question, could we please talk about the
21 aspect of civilian targets and military targets. You said following some
22 questions asked on page 53 that there was a lot of care put into
23 discerning civilian targets from military targets. And could you please
24 elaborate on this aspect in terms of technical aspects of this bearing in
25 mind your own knowledge and experience.
1 Mr. Usher, Mr. President, I don't think that we will need the map
2 any longer, so I don't think that the map needs to stay next to the
3 witness although he can keep it if he wishes to.
4 MR. STAMP: Before the witness proceeds to answer, may I just
5 given a citation of the quotation of the evidence of the witness.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I gave you page 53. If you
7 wish -- do you wish to have the exact quote?
8 JUDGE ORIE: The problem for the Chamber is that when we search,
9 the next day the pages are numbered through. So if you could give some
10 literal text, then we would be able to search for that.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I'm going
12 to have to reopen that. And if we look under searching for word "target,"
13 we should be able to find something.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I've found the words "civilian targets" on page
15 18.470, line 20. But that's in a question.
16 MR. STAMP: My record, and subject to corrections from the Bench,
17 contrary to what my friend said that the witness said, that the witness
18 that there was a lot of care put into discerning civilian targets from
19 military targets. My record is that -- and this is at page 54, "we
20 gathered data on enemy military facilities, not on civilian facilities.
21 And that is what I forwarded to my superior, so there was no point in
22 distinguishing between a civilian and a military."
23 JUDGE ORIE: It's also my recollection, but please correct me,
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if I'm wrong, that the witness testified that since
25 they were concentrating on military targets, that they were not -- but if
1 I'm wrong, please find the right place.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I would never say that you
3 were mistaken. What I wanted to say is that the witness said that there
4 were two categories of targets, and that there was a difference between
5 them. That's what I'm looking for.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but your question was about a different matter.
7 You said about specific care was taken, that's a different matter, and
8 that's what Mr. Stamp objects against. I'll do a search for the word
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my expression
11 is not always what the transcript says, thank God, in fact. And if I say
12 that care was taken --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we don't want any debate on that.
14 The question now is there has been put some doubt on whether you reflected
15 the testimony in a proper way, that you now find the place you'd like
16 refer to, and you put that to the witness, his testimony.
17 What I find in the transcript is on page 18.451, and it might be
18 that you wanted to refer to the answer of the witness on line 7 and
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
21 I must have deduced this expression "great care" from another statement
22 that was uttered, and that's on page 54, 56 - I don't know how that's
23 possible - but I have on my screen, page 56 of yesterday. [In English]
24 "It was strictly observed that the actual, real targets are hit." And it
25 was the words "strictly observed," and from then I deduced --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness testified yesterday that they strictly
2 observed to hit the targets, but as far as the targets are concerned, the
3 witness said that there was no point in distinguishing between a civilian
4 and a military so there would be only data, information, on military
5 facilities, on military equipment. So what you say, whether you hit a
6 target or not, and when you precisely observe what happened to that, is
7 very different from what you put to the witness right away. And what you
8 now did as a matter of fact to start a debate in explaining why what you
9 said was correct in view of the transcript, it is not. So Mr. Bukva,
10 before answering the question, we'll first listen to the question. And
11 then I'll allow you or not allow you to answer the question.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. So Witness, you stated the following, asked by the Prosecution,
15 you stated the following: In relation to the fire that was opened on
16 alleged civilian populations, your interpreted answer was the following:
17 I'm going to quote "that the actual real targets are hit."
18 I would be grateful if you can elaborate on this, please. And if
19 you can tell us what you meant by that. What did you mean by that?
20 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
21 Could you tell me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where the question says that
22 fire was opened on alleged civilian populations? You said that that was
23 the question you quoted.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I did not quote the
25 question. I did not quote the question. What I said --
1 JUDGE ORIE: But you introduced new elements which are not
2 reflecting the course of the examination.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
4 Mr. President. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to ask you a question. When you said that
6 you strictly observed the actual -- the real targets, could you tell us
7 what you meant to say by that? How did you observe that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I remember my answer
9 very well as given to the Prosecution. At the very beginning of the
10 answer, I denied his statement that civilian targets were targeted, were
11 fired on, by saying that my service gathered data only about military
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. It has been read. But now I am asking
14 you about -- you said that you strictly observed that the actual real
15 targets were hit. Could you tell us how you did that or what you exactly
16 did, what you meant when you gave that answer.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, under that term, "we strictly
18 observed" took care to hit military targets. And which way this was done,
19 this care, this attention that was given to this, at this very moment I
20 cannot explain it because this was carried out by artillery experts, by
21 having the real elements, coordinates, by determining the right position
22 of the target, that I believe is the most efficient way of having all the
23 conditions met in order to hit the actual, that is, the military, real
24 target. That's what is included in this. So this is the right care
25 that's taken, due attention given, so that the actual military target is
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so I understand your testimony to be that every
3 care was taken that you would target as precisely in order to hit the
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for you.
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yesterday you said that you didn't recall
11 about any military targets at Alipasino Polje. But after that, you said
12 that probably there was a workshop, and you had pointed it out on the map
13 yesterday. I would like you to see the map again. That part is the
14 eastern part -- the official one, yes.
15 The western part. Yes, that part. Thank you. That's okay.
16 Below that, please. Can you see the Novi Grad name, put that in the
17 centre, please. The map a little bit -- that's okay. That's okay.
19 Do you see the flag in Alipasino Polje?
20 A. [Indjicates]
21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: And the letters KM, as far as I remember,
22 meant command post.
23 A. That's right.
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You said that "we pointed out on the map
25 yesterday." But I cannot see where there is a workshop at
1 Alipasino Polje. That's my question.
2 A. Yes, Your Honour. If you remember, I immediately said that it was
3 a problem of locating a certain part of the town. I said it was -- I said
4 a weapons factory was near Alipasino, and it was in the Zica factory. But
5 this has to do with Alipasino bridge, Alipasin Most, not Alipasino Polje.
6 So if we could move the map a little bit down, then it would be visible.
7 We do have Alipasino Polje here, but further above we have Alipasin Most,
8 Alipasino bridge. You can see it here. And in the immediate vicinity, we
9 have the letter R. This is the Zica factory where there was a workshop of
10 ammunition and weapons. There was a prewar factory here. The prewar Zica
11 factory, so we have Alipasin Most and Alipasino Polje.
12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. Can I take it that at Alipasino Polje,
13 there were no workshops as far as you know?
14 A. Yes. According to information on the map, you are right. There
15 was nothing -- there was no factory for ammunition, weapons, in
16 Alipasino Polje.
17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No further questions.
18 Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Witness, I would like to make sure that I have understood you
22 correctly. My first question is in order to clarify something that you
23 mentioned in the course of your testimony. You said, and I'll quote you
24 in English. You very briefly said that you are well informed about the
25 enemy side. You said that you had information about what was happening on
1 the enemy side. That is what you said, is it not?
2 A. Well, yes. In our opinion, we did have reliable information.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My question has to do with
4 whether you were familiar with the state of morale, with the psychological
5 state that was prevalent on the enemy side. And perhaps I'll clarify that
6 a little more. I think that all the sides in the conflict have an
7 interest in using or in conducting what is also called a psychological
8 war. You said that the enemy side also used the media. And you said that
9 they also used CNN or other chains. So my question has to do with whether
10 you were familiar with the state of morale, with the psychological state
11 on the enemy side?
12 A. With regard to the field of operations and the tasks that the
13 intelligence department had, given these tasks, given these field of
14 operations, I will restrict my answer to the military aspect. And my
15 answer could be as follows: We also gathered that kind of information
16 about enemy manpower. And that is to say about the BH army, and I'll
17 repeat what I said yesterday: All information on enemy manpower was
18 important for us as this is an element that has a direct influence on our
19 own forces in the sense that it was necessary to take preventive measures
20 to obstruct such an influence and to prevent surprises from occurring.
21 I would also like to add that in general, army morale is a very
22 interesting matter for intelligence departments, and it is something that
23 is very difficult to assess in the case of the enemy. But it's of great
24 importance for the way events unfold on the battlefield. We had certain
25 intelligence, information about morale, and we attempted to gather such
1 information. As to how reliable, how complete this information was, that
2 would require a special analysis. But I would like to repeat that I have
3 only spoken about the morale of the enemy army here.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. So you are
5 saying that you were familiar with the state of morale of the enemy forces
6 on the basis of your analysis.
7 Can you tell us in rough terms, if we talk about the September
8 1992, to the end of the summer 1994 period, was state of morale
9 deteriorating then or was it more or less at the same level? Were you
10 able to influence the state of morale? Were you able to affect the
11 psychological state of the enemy side, yes or no? Did you succeed in
12 doing so? Did you have other methods which would enable you to act in
13 this manner, in this field? Could you perhaps clarify this a little for
15 A. When you say "you," I suppose you are referring to the department
16 whose head I was. Am I correct?
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 A. We didn't have any particular means which would enable us to carry
19 out psychological and propaganda activity. So in that sense, we didn't do
20 anything in particular. We didn't act in any particular way. But if
21 you're asking me which methods we used to affect the combat morale of the
22 enemy army, then I can tell you this: The Lukavac 93 operation in which
23 the enemy suffered great casualties and it was a great defeat, this was
24 the best means of diminishing the morale of the enemy army. The victories
25 of our army on the front always had a good effect on this.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, because you mentioned
2 Lukavac 1993, and that was the second question I wanted to put to you.
3 Could you very briefly tell me what the strategic objective of this plan
4 was, because if I have understood you correctly, you said that the attack
5 or the operation was stopped because the UN intervened. Could you briefly
6 explain to me what the strategic objective was and how you were able to
7 implement this objective in order to have strategic success, tactical
9 A. Well, it had an operational objective, not a strategic objective.
10 Yesterday I already said that the main staff led this operation. In
11 addition to the SRK, other units from the Republika Srpska army
12 participated in this operation, so the operational objective of this
13 operation was to reduce the length of the front of the SRK. Because as I
14 said yesterday, I'd like to remind you of this, I spoke about the ratio of
15 forces. I said it was -- the ratio was 4 to 1 with regard to the enemy,
16 in relation to the enemy. As far as I know, the objective of this
17 operation was to reduce the length of the SRK's front, and then to
18 liberate Trnovo so that the eastern and western part of Republika Srpska
19 could be joined up, or rather the territory under the control of the army
20 of Republika Srpska.
21 So the objective was to join the eastern and western parts of
22 those -- of that territory.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But what means did you use?
24 You said that the ratio of your forces to enemy forces was 1 to 4. It
25 wasn't in your favour. In order to fight against this disadvantage, in
1 order to find a remedy to this disadvantage, could you tell me, what were
2 your thoughts? How did you act? What did you do to improve your
3 situation? I don't want you to go into details, but I'm interested in the
4 principle on which this plan was based. If we bear in mind the restricted
5 number of your forces which didn't allow you to engage in a direct
6 conflict, but please correct me if I'm mistaken in presenting things in
7 this way.
8 A. I have to say that I personally did not participate in the
9 planning of this operation. And your question isn't quite clear to me. I
10 apologise. But I can't really see what you want to find out.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'll put that
12 question to you again. But if possible, I'd like a very brief answer. My
13 question has to do with the principle on which this operation was based,
14 given the context, given your disadvantage in the sense that you -- your
15 forces were not as strong, your forces in comparison to the number of
16 enemy troops were not as strong. The ratio was 1 to 4.
17 According to your military position, how did you intend to counter
18 this disadvantage? I don't know if I have been clear. I'm not a military
19 man; I'm not a soldier. But I am trying to express myself all the same.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
21 JUDGE ORIE: If there's a technical problem --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Purely technical. I don't
23 think that the words "according to your military position" were translated
24 by the Serbian booth and this could be important. No, for the Serb booth,
25 the words that I will quote now: "According to your military position," I
1 don't think these words were translated.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, it's a problem with the
3 transcript. But you can answer, please.
4 A. Now I really don't know what I should answer.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Answer my question, if you can
6 remember my question. Mr. Piletta-Zanin mentioned a transcript problem.
7 This does not concern you directly. You heard my question, didn't you?
8 A. Yes. So in military terms if that's right, if an offensive is
9 being planned, and the action taken was of an offensive kind, in such
10 cases, you take into account the main elements that are required in order
11 to achieve the objective. And the relation of forces which is very
12 important, if an attack or defence is concerned, is something that the
13 commander determines. He determines the focus of the military action. If
14 it's an attack, the focus of the attack. If it's a defence, the focus of
15 the defence. And he also determines what the concentration of forces will
16 be in a certain direction. So, if you have understood me, I already said
17 that in addition to the SRK forces, other forces from the Army of
18 Republika Srpska participated. And in this way, at the very beginning,
19 our disadvantage, as far as manpower is concerned, wasn't so serious.
20 That's the first thing.
21 The second thing is the optimal direction of the attack. You have
22 to determine where the enemy is at his weakest, and that is the point
23 which one will attack with one's own forces, with strong forces. And this
24 is how one breaks through the enemy front, and then one takes advantage of
25 this breakthrough by taking well-known tactical action.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] There's a little question I want
2 to ask you. You said that you yourself were a target for snipers. You
3 yourself came under sniper fire.
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] What do you mean? How did you
6 know that fire was opened by a sniper? How did you know that it was
7 sniper fire?
8 A. Well, it was in such a place and at such a distance that it was
9 possible to conclude that it was a sniper. In one case, fragmentation
10 ammunition was used, and only sniper rifles use such ammunition. To be
11 more specific, part of the Lukavac/Pale Road in the Osmice area, for a
12 certain period of time, about 50 metres -- a 50-metre section of that road
13 was not protected, and it came under sniper fire. They would open fire on
14 that part of the road. And that is where I was shot at. I didn't mention
15 the first occasion. That was in the barracks itself in the area of the
16 the Vranjis elevation, and the third time was in Grbavica. That is to say
17 in the urban part of Sarajevo that was under the control of the Republika
18 Srpska army.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But very briefly, how far away
20 was the sniper very roughly?
21 A. I spoke about how snipers took action, how they fired. I think
22 it's difficult to determine this, because it's difficult to spot snipers.
23 But let's say on Grbavica, I know that part of town very well. It
24 couldn't have been at a distance exceeding 300 metres. But as far as the
25 case in the barracks is concerned, I couldn't really say, but I'm sure
1 that it came from the direction of Dobrinja, from a highrise building.
2 Perhaps one could say that it was from a distance of between four and five
3 hundred metres.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. And you said that it
5 was possible for you to come to the conclusion that it was a sniper on the
6 basis of the bullets. You saw the fragments, the dum dum ammunition, if I
7 have understood you correctly.
8 A. No, you can't see those fragments. You are talking about bullet
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, you said that you were
11 fired on by a sniper. Why didn't you say it was an ordinary soldier who
12 shot at you? Why did you say that it was a sniper?
13 A. As I've already said, it's the type of ammunition used that led me
14 to that conclusion. I said that the ammunition used was a fragmentation
15 ammunition, fragmentation bullets or the so-called dum dum bullets. When
16 I mentioned the event in the barracks when a sniper shot at me, I saw that
17 the bullet came from my rear. It missed me, and it hit an obstacle which
18 was 2 or 3 metres in front of me. When it hit that obstacle, the
19 fragmentation bullet, the dum dum bullet, was activated. It exploded.
20 You understand. And the same thing happened when I was exposed to sniper
21 fire on Grbavica. The bullet hit the road and it exploded.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But are these bullets
23 necessarily used by sniper rifles or can a sniper use other bullets which
24 are not necessarily dum dum bullets?
25 A. I'm not such an expert, but I know that various types of
1 ammunition are used.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. My very last
3 question, then: You said, if I've understood you correctly, you said that
4 the BH army based itself on the model of the former JNA, that its
5 structure was based on the former JNA model. Is that what you said?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So does this remark also apply to
8 your army?
9 A. Yes. The same rules were applied. Or rather the organisation,
10 the establishment, it was the same.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. So within the JNA
12 army, were there sniper units?
13 A. As far as I know, there were no special sniper units, no.
14 Exclusively sniper units.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, or rather were there snipers
16 who were part of other units, attached to other units? So units where
17 there were two or three or a certain number of snipers?
18 A. Yes. That's what it states in the rules.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
20 Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bukva, I have some questions for you as well.
22 First, you made a comparison between the strength of your troops, and you
23 also compared the number of infantry weapons available to the opposing
24 party and your forces. You told us that they had far more troops and far
25 more infantry weapons. Would the same be true for heavy weapons? Would
1 they have more heavy weapons than you had? Would they have approximately
2 the same number, or would they have less?
3 A. Mr. President, it's difficult to answer this question very
4 precisely. I was not in a position to be able to say how many such heavy
5 weapons remained in the barracks of the former JNA because in Sarajevo and
6 in the surroundings of Sarajevo, and this had an important effect on the
7 balance of forces, one of the conditions for them to withdraw from
8 barracks in Sarajevo, one of the conditions was to leave all the heavy
9 weapons in the barracks, and this was done.
10 I don't have any precise information. But at the end of the war,
11 the relation was more or less the same. It was more or less equal.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You said at the end of the war. During the war, what
13 was your global perception of the availability of having heavy weapons
14 compared in your forces and the opposite forces?
15 A. I wouldn't be able to give you a precise answer. It's a very
16 delicate question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's why I asked you the question, since you seem to
18 be very well aware of the comparison between the number of troops and the
19 number of infantry weapons. So I thought you might have some knowledge
20 about heavy weapons as well.
21 My next question to you is: Are you aware of any military courts
22 or court martials functioning during the war within the SRK?
23 A. Although this is not my field of expertise, I am aware that
24 military courts did exist, but these were regular military courts. And
25 I'd just like to say in relation to this that the authorities of
1 Republika Srpska had never declared a state of war. So it was the
2 peacetime laws that were applied. And in relation to that, military
3 regular courts existed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We are under some time restraints. So I asked you
5 whether you were aware, and you said yes, I was. There were military
6 courts, but not a court working in accordance with the state of war, but
7 just as if it were peace.
8 Could you tell us where they were located?
9 A. Well, one such court was located in Ilidza, at Ilidza, that part
10 of Sarajevo under the control of the army of Republika Srpska.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm specifically asking about a military court
12 functioning in the SRK. Since you said it was under the control of the
13 Army of the Republika Srpska, that's not exactly the same. Could you
14 please tell us whether it was within the -- within your corps or outside
15 your corps?
16 A. Well, this court was located at Ilidza on the territory of Ilidza.
17 But all military courts were under the immediate or control of the
18 Ministry of Defence. They were part of the Ministry of Defence. They
19 were not part of the corps. So the military judiciary was part of the
20 Ministry of Defence of the army of Republika Srpska. Such a court was
21 located at Ilidza. One such court was in Nevesinje as far as I recall,
22 and one such court was located in Bijeljina. So these courts were
23 established according to territorial principle, and they were all part of
24 the Ministry of Defence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know of any case of a suspect or an accused to
1 be from within the SRK to be sent to any of these courts?
2 A. Well, yesterday we mentioned the paramilitary unit St. George.
3 And if you remember, I said that they ended up in court. And as far as
4 some individual cases are concerned, I wouldn't be able to remember
5 because that was under the strict authority of the military judiciary.
6 And I really had no direct connection with them at all. But what I've
7 said in relation to the St. George's group, I know that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was, if I did understand you well, a
9 matter of insubordination or...?
10 A. Yes, we spoke about the St. George's group as a -- one of the
11 paramilitary units. And because of having committed murder, because of
12 looting and robbery, they had to appear in court.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Did they appear in the military court?
14 A. I'm not sure.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next question is: You told us about the
16 existence of workshops. What happened with those workshops? And I'm
17 talking about workshops where ammunition or at least military products
18 were produced or repaired. What happened to them?
19 A. I don't understand the question, Mr. President. Perhaps it's the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Were they destroyed? Were they left alone? Were
22 they observed by you just in order to see what production they were
23 capable of doing? Or what happened to it? What did you do with them?
24 A. I don't know that. I said that the duty and obligation of my
25 service was to gather such information, such intelligence, and to forward
1 them to the command. And measures taken by the command, I wouldn't be
2 aware of them. In a sense, whether anything was undertaken against those,
3 I don't know. Is that what you mean?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you have a relatively precise knowledge
5 of the existence of such workshops, would it not be part of your
6 intelligence tasks to see whether they continued to exist? So wouldn't
7 you therefore not know if they would have been destroyed or moved to
8 another place? So that's why I'm asking you what happened to these
10 A. Well, I said that I wasn't sure whether they were fired at,
11 whether anything was done. But considering it all, we did follow their
12 activity and it is true that during the war they changed location. And we
13 followed the activity of those workshops. And for us, this activity was
14 always of interest.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And any change of location, did that ever
16 happened due to the workshop being destroyed by military action or damaged
17 by military action?
18 A. I really wouldn't know that. It's possible.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You said there were mujahedin in Dobrinja.
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us exactly what you mean by that and
22 how you would know?
23 A. Well, the Mujahedin are people who came from Islamic countries and
24 took part in fighting the Serbs on the side of the Muslims. The
25 information on the presence of the Mujahedin, we received this in several
1 ways. But the most secure way was from people who crossed over to our
2 territory and possibly from people who were exchanged from those areas. So
3 we would learn this from people who saw that, who saw them, who saw the
4 Mujahedin in those areas. And the unit that was present there, the
5 El Fatah unit consisted of about 150 Mujahedin, exclusively Mujahedin.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So this is, I would say, imported manpower in the
7 troops of the opposite army. Did you have any import of abroad
8 or -- well, let's say, outside the area who would be incorporated in your
9 troops either temporary or a permanent basis?
10 A. There were individual cases. You cannot speak of a whole unit
11 exclusively. You cannot speak about an exclusive unit, say, from
12 Yugoslavia, to take an example. But there were individual cases. These
13 were volunteers. As far as I recall, there were, but not many.
14 JUDGE ORIE: They were also subordinated to the command of the
16 A. They were part of the regular units of the corps, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. You told us in respect of
18 one of the documents shown to you that you did remember the day very well
19 because one of the mortar shells of which this report -- mentioned in this
20 report, you said, "fell in a prison where prisoners were walking in the
21 morning." Were you in that prison when that shell fell?
22 A. No, no.
23 JUDGE ORIE: How did you learn about it?
24 A. I learned about this from talking to someone. I can't quite
25 remember the name. I think a prison guard who was a friend of mine, an
1 acquaintance of mine.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So you more or less by accident learned about it, not
3 as a part of your duties?
4 A. I found out about the event. I knew about the event.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember how much later you found out about
6 the event?
7 A. It was the same day.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Same day. Do you remember when it was exactly? What
9 day it was or what month?
10 A. I think it was in September.
11 JUDGE ORIE: September of what year?
12 A. 1993.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next question is you have been -- questions
14 have been put to you in respect of whether something happened as a -- as
15 they call it in French, a barrage of fire, a lot of weaponry firing at the
16 same time for at least 20 minutes, at Christmas either 24th or 25th of
17 December, either the 6th or the 7th of January, 1992/1993. You said you
18 were not aware of such event?
19 A. Correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Was there anything else special at either the
21 December Christmas or the January Christmas that you noticed? I mean, was
22 there something like such a thing but for a shorter period of time, or was
23 there any special in respect of firing at one of these Christmas Days or
24 Christmas Eves?
25 A. No, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then you told us about Markale. Do you know whether
2 the Markale incident where it was alleged that a marketplace was hit by a
3 shell, do you know whether any investigation was done by a group inside
4 your Sarajevo Romanija Corps? So I'm not talking about a mixed group,
6 A. I understood the question. I understood it. What you mean is an
7 investigation as part of our forces.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Whether a group was formed for that or whether it
9 happened and how it was organised, if it happened.
10 A. I cannot say for certain that there was a team that was
11 established on the orders of the commander. But I do know that certain
12 measures were taken in order to ascertain, to ascertain whether this
13 mortar shell, as this was alleged, whether this mortar shell came from our
14 positions. These measures were taken to find this out in all the units of
15 the SRK, particularly in relation to the units that were, for instance, in
16 the area from which it would have been possible to fire this. However, I
17 have to remind you that at that time, there was a ban on firing from
18 weapons of a calibre above 12.7 millimetre, or perhaps that such weapons
19 were even elsewhere. They were dislocated, put on some other locations.
20 And there were certain investigative measures that were taken, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: A ban by whom? Are you referring to the
22 establishment of the exclusion zone, the total exclusion zone, or any
23 other ban?
24 A. It was a ban on firing from weapons of calibre higher than 12.7
25 millimetre. That was the ban in force at the time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: By whom? Imposed by whom?
2 A. That was a result, like all the other truces, cease-fires, that
3 were signed, this was the result of the efforts of the UN. And both sides
4 had signed this as an agreement.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you said that -- could you tell us more
6 about -- you answered to one of my questions that a team was established
7 on the order of the commander. Who participated in that team, the team
8 that would have to ascertain whether the mortar shell came from your
9 positions? Who participated in that team?
10 A. In that team, there is an order that the commander issued. In
11 that team, there was Colonel Cvetkovic was a member of that team. And
12 there was another member of that team. But this was an order to establish
13 a mixed team, a joint team. That's what I spoke of yesterday. But our two
14 members --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I would like to be quite clear. I asked you
16 whether there was a team within your corps, so not your delegations to a
17 mixed team but whether there was a team investigating the incident without
18 the participation of either international or members of the opposite
20 A. Mr. President, I would not be able to answer this question. I
21 don't know. I only know about what I told you a moment ago.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You know about the mixed team and that it
23 failed to perform.
24 You told us that finally you did not participate because the
25 UNPROFOR could not guarantee your safety. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ask for any guarantees, or did they say, "you
3 cannot come because it's too unsafe"? What happened?
4 A. I don't know exactly. What I do know is that the response from
5 the UNPROFOR command was that those members of the mixed team cannot be
6 guaranteed safety in the territory under the control of the BH army.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So it was finally on the basis of this message of
8 UNPROFOR that your forces were not able to participate in an
9 investigation, a mixed team. Is that a correct understanding of your
11 A. Yes. I presume that the commander did not wish to risk sending
12 his men to death.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us about what a person by the name of
14 Demurenko said about the Markale market incident. Did you hear that from
15 his own mouth, or was it hearsay for you?
16 A. His interview that was given to the Associated Press agency was
17 carried by all most important media houses in the whole world. And this
18 interview lasted for 18 minutes. And it is in this way that I found out
19 about his results, or rather, about his findings. That's how I found out
20 about it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Was it televised?
22 A. Yes. I said that was carried by all the media houses, both
23 newspaper and television, and also our television, in the world and in our
24 country, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It was then -- at that time already broadcasted, or
1 did you see it later?
2 A. After the event, I'm not sure exactly how long after, but say
3 after a fortnight, perhaps 20 days, something like that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Shortly after the event.
5 These were my questions. Is there any need to put additional
6 questions to the witness in respect of issues that have been -- yes. At
7 least Judge Nieto-Navia has an additional question. Any of the parties as
8 well? No.
9 Judge Nieto-Navia.
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Do you know whether the Serbian army or the
11 SRK in particular used or had dum dum bullets?
12 A. No. Such type of ammunition, ammunition, wasn't in the possession
13 even of the former JNA. No.
14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No further questions. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Assuming the Defence doesn't have any questions, may I
17 be allowed to ask just a couple.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If they arise from the examination by the Bench, you
20 MR. STAMP: Yes.
21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:
22 Q. You said you were shot at by the barracks at Lukavica. Where were
23 the barracks you were shot at?
24 A. I already said that, sir. That was in the barracks area, and if
25 you wish, I can show it to you on the map.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 18518 to 18525.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President.
3 Mentioning this sniping incident does not come from the questions asked by
4 your Chamber. It has already been asked before.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think the location came from the Chamber, whereas
6 the event as such was asked by the examination of the parties. So if it
7 is about the location, I would consider that you may ask the question.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. What I'm trying to ask you, sir, is where exactly, in which
10 building, if a building, or where exactly in the barracks compound were
11 you at when you were shot at?
12 A. Well, I was in an open space. I was on one of the internal roads
13 in the compound near a portion of elevated ground. And it was called
14 Vranjis. That's inside the compound of the barracks.
15 Q. Thank you. You were asked a few questions about the Markale
16 incident. Do you remember the date of it, the date of the incident you
17 were speaking of?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you remember the month of the incident you were speaking of?
20 A. No, I wouldn't be able to recall precisely. I think it was in
21 August, or perhaps even July.
22 Q. Do you remember the year of the incident you were speaking of?
23 A. 1995. If we are speaking of Markale II.
24 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire of the Court, you had asked some
25 questions in respect of Markale. And it might well be that he was
1 answering questions in respect of a different incident.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, I described the incident as a shell
3 falling on the Markale market. That was the incident I was talking about.
4 Since you now say Markale II --
5 MR. STAMP: There were two incidents.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What would you call Markale I? You said Markale II
7 in answering a question.
8 A. Well, there was one incident similar to this one. But that was in
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When we were talking about a mixed
11 investigation, at least plans to establish a group, a mixed group, joint
12 group, to investigate the incident, did that happen on both incidents or
13 just on the incidents you had a mind when answering my questions?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was in relation -- I'm sorry.
15 I apologise. That was in relation to Markale I at the time when
16 General Galic was the commander.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you answered my questions, and when I
18 referred to your answer in the beginning of my questions, your answer
19 about Markale investigation, did you always have Markale I in mind?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I asked questions about Markale I, but not about
22 Markale II.
23 Do you know the date of the -- or the month of the incident you
24 had in mind when answering my questions?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the exact date, but
1 I think it was in July. I think it was in July. Or perhaps August, as I
3 JUDGE ORIE: How many questions do you still have, Mr. Stamp?
4 Because we are close to the time when we have to finish because of the
6 MR. STAMP: One question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One question, yes.
8 MR. STAMP: Perhaps I could put it to the Court first, because it
9 is not a question that directly arises out of what the Court asked. I
10 would ask for leave to put it. Although I would still submit that a reply
11 from -- of some new matters that my friend inquired in regular
12 examination. It is just to describe exactly where this steel and slab
13 barrier was in relation to the soldiers' quarters and the commander's
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you briefly describe the steel slab you
16 talked about between the office building and the officers' club, and could
17 you, for me, tell as well, how high that was.
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I just
20 wanted to point out that this does not arise from the questions put by
21 your Chamber, in my opinion.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I am aware of that. But if you would have a look at
23 my notes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and if you could look into my mind, you would
24 have found out that where I put in my notes that I had to ask further
25 details about the steel slab, I had forgotten. So consider it to be an
1 additional question by the Bench.
2 Could you please tell us more in detail where the steel slab was
3 and how high it was.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I point it out on the map?
5 JUDGE ORIE: We know that there is certain distance between the
6 building and the -- was it in the middle of the open space or was it
7 closer to the office building? Was it closer to the soldiers' club?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if we remember the video,
9 between the soldiers' club and the command building, there's an empty
10 space. There is a lawn which is about 15 metres wide. So that entire
11 area between those two buildings, there were steel slabs in that area.
12 And they were about as high as the first floor. They reached to the first
13 floor more or less. But perhaps those slabs, the height of the slabs, was
14 2 metres. And an entire belt was covered by those slabs between the
15 military club building, and the building in which General Galic had his
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my clarification, when you say approximately
18 2 metres, would that mean from the first floor, you would look over a
19 steel slab?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Those slabs, the
21 dimensions of which were about 2 by 2, they were on wooden supports. And
22 at the level of the windows of the first floor.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have a better understanding.
24 Well, you've answered now all the questions from the parties and
25 from the Bench. I'd like to thank you for doing that and for coming to
1 The Hague. We all know it's a long distance. And we hope that you have a
2 safe journey home again.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And with your
4 permission, I would just like to conclude by greeting my commander, and I
5 would like to thank you and I hope that our cooperation has been fruitful.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
7 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
8 courtroom. We'll adjourn, I would say, until 5.30, and I would ask
9 whether it would be possible, then, for the interpreters and the technical
10 assistants to then continue without a break until 7.00. Would that be
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 THE INTERPRETER: That's acceptable for the interpreters,
14 Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
16 THE INTERPERTER: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll find out during the break whether there's any
18 technical difficulty in achieving it. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If you
20 could look into my mind, then one would have noticed that this question
21 could have been put to General Galic, too. I know that he is more ill
22 than we are on occasion. And it would be good to ask him whether he can
23 support this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I always expect you, General Galic, to
25 interfere when your health situation would not allow to follow what is
1 suggested. So if that would be the case, please tell us. And if not,
2 let's then quickly enjoy our break.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good day. Or good
4 evening. Well, it will be difficult for me, I have to say SO, but I do
5 have my medicine, and I will try to bear with it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If it would comfort you to make it 40 or 45 minutes,
7 we will do so. But if you say 35 minutes will do, then...
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the current break is
9 not at issue, but the length of the proceedings. If I can just stand up,
10 I'll do so, then I could sit down again. And everything will be all right
11 then. I hope so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it's good for you just to stand for a couple
13 of minutes, then please ask and we'll permit you, and we'll explain to
14 whoever will be the witness that it's for your health. If we can
15 accommodate you, we'll gladly do so.
16 Then we'll adjourn until 5.30.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 --- Recess taken at 4.56 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 5.34 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, if you would guide us through the
21 documents, and at the same time I do understand that there's a slight
22 change in the order of appearance of the witnesses, that is to say that
23 the witness Indjic will be the next one to testify since he really has to
24 leave before the weekend. The Chamber still hopes and thinks that both
25 witness DP2 and witness Indjic could be examined until Friday, quarter to
2 Could the witness be stand by so that he can enter the courtroom
3 immediately after we have gone through the documents. Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The first document is
5 D719, and that is a regular military report dated the 25th of June, 1993.
6 The next document is D542, which is also a regular military report dated
7 12th of March, 1994. The next document is D1235. That is also a
8 document, a military report, dated the 7th of November, 1992. The next
9 exhibit is D935, which is a regular military report dated the 5th of
10 August, 1993. There is a map marked by the witness, D1838. And there's
11 two separate sheets, to make one map.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would it not be a practical way that we combine them
13 into one sheet. So although it exists of two parts now, 1838, the Chamber
14 will combine them so that they are one.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to the Defence exhibits,
16 the Prosecution adopts the usual position which is that only those parts
17 of the military reports and similar documents which were the subject of
18 examination be entered. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And please proceed.
20 THE REGISTRAR: The next document is D825, and that is a regular
21 military report dated the 11th of July, 1993. Another document, D1144,
22 and that is a regular military report dated the 13th of November, 1993.
23 D1631 is the next document, and that is dated the 9th of January, 1994.
24 D588, which is a regular daily report, and that is dated the 17th of
25 April, 1993. D837, that is a regular military report dated the 24th of
1 July, 1993. D1035, and that is a regular military report dated the 3rd of
2 September, 1993.
3 D864, regular military report dated the 22nd of July, 1994. D861,
4 regular military report dated July 17th, 1994. D741, regular military
5 report dated the 19th of June, 1994. D748, that is a regular military
6 report dated the 26th of June, 1994. D735, which is a regular military
7 report dated the 13th of June, 1994. D1111, and this is a regular
8 military report dated the 7th of October, 1993. The next exhibit is
9 D1108, regular military report dated the 4th of October, 1993. D543,
10 regular military report dated the 13th of March, 1994.
11 And there's two more. D1039, regular military report dated the
12 7th of September, 1993. And the last one is D936, which is a regular
13 military report dated the 6th of August, 1993. That's all, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I noticed that each of
15 the regular military reports, a partial translation of the document is
16 attached, that is, the heading and usually the full paragraph which we
17 find under number 1, and the very end of the report, signature, date, et
18 cetera. So they are attached to it, and they are part of the document as
19 tendered and as now admitted into evidence unless Mr. Piletta-Zanin would
20 withdraw it.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I just wanted to add
22 something with regard to what the Prosecution said. In general, in these
23 documents, there are stamps which certify in addition to their
24 authenticity, which has been confirmed by the witness, it certifies the
25 fact that these orders were distributed. They were addressed to someone,
1 they were forwarded to someone. There was a sender and a receiver. Thank
3 JUDGE ORIE: Whether they were forwarded or not is, I think, not
4 in evidence, but at least I take it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that the Defence
5 takes the position that if a letter contains the one who sent it and the
6 one to whom it is addressed, that you would take it for acceptable that
7 they have been sent. I didn't hear any objection from the Prosecution. I
8 take it that where the stamps are a legible part, even without
9 translation, and since mention has been made of these stamps several times
10 by the witness, that at least in these photocopies, the stamps as they
11 appear are part of the document that is admitted into evidence, then.
12 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but what I want to say is
14 that this is not what we are assuming. This stamp is proof that these
15 orders were distributed. And as such, they were recorded --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if a stamp on a photocopy would
17 prove what you say now, I'm not saying it's not proved. I didn't hear any
18 objection. But this position seems not in every respect to correspond
19 with the position previously taken a few times by the Defence in respect
20 of photocopy documents and stamps on that. But it's not -- I didn't hear
21 any objection, so the Chamber will -- yes, Mr. Stamp.
22 Apart from you objected in general terms at the beginning
23 that -- not objecting against the admission of the document now does not
24 mean that the Prosecution accepts them to be true copies of the originals.
25 Is that --
1 MR. STAMP: As to be authentic, yes, true copies of the originals.
2 And I should add, if the Court would be prepared to receive them, we are
3 prepared to provide our draft translations of the complete documents. I
4 notice the President had mentioned the issue of translations, or parts of
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, until now -- usually the parties are required to
7 translate as much as necessary to understand a part of a document in its
8 context. We have been provided with translations of paragraph 1.
9 Questions, but not specifically to the content, but in more general terms
10 have been put to the witness in respect of paragraph 2 which we could not
11 verify. And if the Prosecution would provide translations and request
12 that they would be admitted in order to create the context of the
13 document, we'll then consider that matter once the request is there.
14 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then is the Defence ready to call its next
16 witness? Yes, I see you are nodding yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Mr. Usher, could
17 you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: With the limitations that were just explained, until
20 now, the documents are admitted into evidence, that means in respect of
21 those parts on which the witness was examined, in respect of the
22 paragraphs 1, the headings, and the end of the document. And as far as
23 general questions have been put to the witness in respect of the
24 paragraphs 2, that part as such is then in evidence.
25 I take it that you are Mr. Indjic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Indjic, before giving evidence in this Court, the
3 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
4 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 The text of this declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher.
6 And I'd like to invite you to make that declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Mr. Indjic, please be seated.
10 You'll first be examined by counsel for the Defence.
11 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
12 WITNESS: MILENKO INDJIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
15 Q. Mr. Indjic, could you tell us your full name and your date of birth
16 and place.
17 A. My name is Milenko Indjic. I was born in Sarajevo on the 1st of
18 April in 1957.
19 Q. Can you tell us what rank you hold at the moment?
20 A. At the moment, I am Lieutenant-Colonel.
21 Q. You told us that you were born on the 1st of April, 1957, in
22 Sarajevo. Can you tell us how long you lived there.
23 A. I more or less spent my entire life in Sarajevo apart from a few
24 years, which I spent when I was studying outside of Sarajevo. That was
25 four years of secondary school. If necessary, I can say this.
1 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you to provide us with more details about
2 your education, but my question was up until when did you live in
4 A. I lived in Sarajevo up until the time of the Dayton agreement, up
5 until when the Dayton agreement was signed, when part of Sarajevo
6 was -- became part of the Federation in accordance with the Dayton
7 agreement. My flat was in that area, and that's when I left.
8 Q. Thank you. And in order to be more precise, can you tell us which
9 part of Sarajevo you lived in up until the time when you left the city.
10 A. I lived in the part of Sarajevo called Grbavica.
11 Q. Thank you. Before we started talking about the area you lived in,
12 you mentioned your absence from Sarajevo, the period during which you were
13 absent from Sarajevo, and you said that was while you were attending
14 schools. Which schools have you finished? What's your educational
16 A. I finished primary school, the air force and military secondary
17 school in Mostar in 1975.
18 Q. Mr. Indjic, please speak slowly for the sake of the interpreters.
19 A. So secondary school in 1975, and then the technical air force
20 academy in Rajlovac. I finished my studies there in 1978. In 1981, I
21 finished the JNA school for foreign languages in Belgrade. And in 1986, I
22 completed an intelligence course in Pancevo. In addition to those
23 schools, I commenced post-graduate studies in political sciences in
24 Zagreb. I didn't complete these studies because the war broke out in
25 Croatia in 1991.
1 Q. Thank you. You've told us about the schools you completed. But
2 which professional duties did you have until the conflict in Sarajevo
3 broke out and in the course of the conflict in Sarajevo?
4 A. Well, I can answer this question in two ways. I can talk about
5 the breakout of the conflict. When I finished the academy, I worked as a
6 platoon commander in the secondary military school in Rajlovac. And then
7 I worked as a teacher in the secondary military school and the technical
8 air force academy in Rajlovac. In February 1992, I was assigned as a
9 liaison officer in the group for cooperation with UNPROFOR. It was a
10 group from the former JNA. From that period, up until the end of the war
11 in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the duties I performed were those
12 of the liaison officer.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Mr. Indjic, as far as I have understood, you were the liaison
15 officer while the JNA, the former JNA army, still existed. And you told
16 me that later on, you also performed this -- these duties, the duties of
17 the liaison officer. Within which army did you perform these duties and
19 A. If I have understood your question correctly, it only refers to
20 the second period. So I will focus on this period alone. When the group
21 for cooperating with the United Nations was disbanded, the former JNA
22 group, I was assigned to a group which cooperate we had UNPROFOR which
23 belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska. I was assigned to that group by
24 the order of the federal secretariat of national defence of the former
25 SRJ. And it was my desire to stay within the territory of the former
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina because that's where I was born.
2 Q. Thank you. If I have understood you, you were a liaison officer
3 in the group for cooperating with UNPROFOR which functioned within the
4 army of Republika Srpska.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell me what your role in that group was? How many of
7 there were there in that group and did you have any particular function?
8 A. Since it took a certain amount of time for this group to be
9 formed, just as it took some time for the Army of Republika Srpska to be
10 formed, at the very beginning, the group wasn't fully staffed, and there
11 were only three men who were performing duties there. In addition to me,
12 Colonel Zarkovic and my colleague Luledzija [Realtime transcript read in
13 error "Lugonja"] were in that group. The duties I had in the group were
14 those of a liaison officer. And Colonel Zarkovic headed the group.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think the
17 surname Luledzija has been entered into the transcript. It's a mistake.
18 Q. Mr. Indjic, could you spell that, given your knowledge of English.
19 MR. IERACE: May I suggest that perhaps my learned colleague and
20 the witness might slow down. It's a cracking pace, and that probably
21 explains why the name wasn't caught. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I ask you to speak a bit more slowly,
23 Mr. Indjic, because the interpreters really have problems in following your
24 speed of language.
25 Please proceed. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And likewise, I would like to
2 ask Mr. Ierace, if he has to intervene, to wait for the interpretation to
3 finish. Since some people are still listening to it. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may address the Chamber if you want to
5 express your disagreement with the way Mr. Ierace behaves.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I will
8 continue. But the surname in the transcript is now Lugonja. I think this
9 should be corrected to avoid any confusion later on. The witness said
10 Luledzija. I could ask Mr. Indjic to spell Mr. Luledzija's surname, for
11 the sake of the transcript.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please spell the name you just mentioned.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] LUDZ -- L-U-L-E-D-Z-I-J-A.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Indjic, can you briefly tell us what your duties were as the
16 liaison officer after you had been assigned to the Army of
17 Republika Srpska.
18 A. The main duties of the group of liaison officers, and that
19 included myself as a member of that group of the liaison officers, the
20 main duties were to serve as a link between the warring factions, or the
21 representatives of the international community and the Army of
22 Republika Srpska. It was to facilitate communication between these
23 factions. And when I say communication, I mean that through our group,
24 our liaison group, all requests, various requests, various documents would
25 be received, and they would be forwarded to the people they were intended
1 for and vice versa. This also included all essential technical
2 preparations needed to organise meetings at various levels. It included
3 the participation of interpreters at these meetings.
4 Q. Mr. Indjic, you also mentioned dealing with all requests and all
5 the documents that arose that you would receive while on duty. With
6 reference to that period, that is to say, after the formation of your
7 group, or to be more precise, from September 1992 up until August 1994,
8 with regard to those requests, did you receive documents that were, in
9 fact, protests?
10 A. Yes, we did.
11 Q. You told us what your duties were in the liaison group, the group
12 for cooperation. Can you tell us whether in the course of a working day,
13 let's take one of your working days as an example. In the course of such
14 a day, did you plan your activities? Did you make a plan?
15 A. It was almost impossible to make a daily, weekly, or monthly plan
16 of our activities because our activities depended on the work and the
17 requests of others. And it was, in fact, the purpose of our office to
18 provide services to these others. Usually, we would only make daily plans
19 for our activities after which we would examine what had been planned,
20 what had been ordered, what was necessary to do, and we would examine
21 these matters at a morning meeting.
22 Q. Mr. Indjic, you explained what your duties were, what your role
23 was, and what your cooperation or liaison group did. Can you tell us what
24 was your authority within that group? That is, did you, as a liaison
25 officer, did you have the right to decide, to take decisions?
1 A. No. Like in any other army in the world, the person who is
2 carrying out the duties of a liaison officer does not have any possibility
3 to decide on their own initiative.
4 Q. Mr. Indjic, speaking of your work within that group, in relation to
5 UNPROFOR and humanitarian activities, so to speak, did you, as a liaison
6 officer, have the authority to decide about when and where, in which
7 direction, would a humanitarian convoy go through the front lines?
8 A. When we're talking about the delivery of a humanitarian aid, and
9 particularly about the convoys of humanitarian aid, the authority to
10 approve these convoys, it was -- it -- the authority was with the main
11 staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. Even the corps commander was not
12 able to approve the passage of humanitarian convoys.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. On several occasions, this was ordered in written form by the main
15 staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. And there was a specifically
16 established procedure to advise of and approve humanitarian convoy
18 Q. Mr. Indjic, you just told us that there was an order, in fact,
19 order given by the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. When we're
20 talking about movement and approval of movement of vehicles of UNPROFOR,
21 humanitarian vehicles --
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, considering that the
23 witness spoke of this order of the main staff of the VRS, the Defence
24 would like to present the witness with a document. We have disclosed this
25 document to the Prosecution. And with your leave, would like to show it
1 to the witness.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, could you please assist
3 Ms. Pilipovic.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, perhaps my learned
5 colleague could confirm that this document will -- perhaps clarify this
6 document was on the exhibit list or whether it was disclosed for the first
7 time -- and whether it was disclosed for the first time a few days ago,
8 just for the record.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was
10 received by the Defence from Mr. Indjic. And I told my learned colleague
11 that I received a copy of this document, and that's why I disclosed it in
12 due course. It is not on the exhibit list of the Defence, but this is the
13 document that the Defence received only a couple of days ago. And we did
14 inform our learned colleagues about this. This document has the number of
15 1839. And I propose that it be made part of the exhibits as they come.
16 And the copy of that document and the translation of the document, I have
17 disclosed to my learned colleagues.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have any objection to the
19 document being shown to the witness. I think just as a matter of course,
20 one should seek leave to rely on a document which hasn't been disclosed
21 under reciprocal disclosure, and especially not included on the exhibit
22 list. But I have no objection to it in this particular case.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please then proceed.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Indjic, do you recognise this document?
1 A. Yes. This is the order of the main staff of the Army of Republika
2 Srpska, which was forwarded to all the subordinate corps.
3 Q. Mr. Indjic, this document which is before you, is this the document
4 that you have given to the Defence?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Indjic, under Item 5 of this document, does it say -- is there
7 a provision which regulates the work of the liaison officers?
8 A. Yes. This provision confirms what it says about the movement of
9 humanitarian convoys, that is, it clears up the approval of the movement
10 of the convoys.
11 Q. Can you please read Item 5 of this document.
12 A. Approval of movement of UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid convoys
13 cannot be performed orally by phone, but exclusively by written documents
14 of the main staff of the VRS and the corps command. Liaison --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just stop you for a second. On the video
16 evidence screen, nothing appears. So there must be a technical problem, I
17 take it. It has been fixed? It's being fixed. If you would have any
18 question apart from this document, because, Ms. Pilipovic, for the public
19 character of the trial, it would be good to be able to have this document
20 a public character as well. Or could the technical booth inform us about
21 how much time it would still take.
22 Since we have no idea, if you have any questions not related to
23 the document to be shown on the ELMO, Ms. Pilipovic, you could first ask
24 these questions to the witness.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Indjic, could you tell us whether your duties as a liaison
2 officer, did they go over the SRK field, that is, did you perform any
3 duties for any other organs or commands?
4 A. At the beginning of the establishment of the group of liaison with
5 UNPROFOR, the only possible communication between the UNPROFOR command for
6 the former Bosnia-Herzegovina and the command for the Sarajevo sector with
7 the Army of Republika Srpska was through the office, liaison office, of
8 our group. And it was for that reason to start with, the beginning of our
9 work, the scope of our duties occasionally did go over the area of
10 responsibility of the SRK, of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. As time went
11 on, this problem was resolved because UNPROFOR created their own group of
12 liaison officers in Pale, and they kept contact with the main staff. And
13 that part of the work was no longer within our authority.
14 Q. Mr. Indjic, you said liaison office. Can you tell us, during those
15 initial stages, I understand that there were two parts that you are
16 talking about. So during this initial stage when you had much wider
17 authority outside of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, can you tell us where
18 were your offices? And when you say "in the beginning," can you tell us
19 when was that?
20 A. In the initial stage, that is, from the beginning when the war,
21 conflict, broke out, a need was created to have a communication between
22 the warring sides and the international community, that is, and the
23 peacekeeping forces with the warring sides. It was for this reason that
24 it was agreed that offices of liaison offices would be opened for all
25 three warring sides at the UNPROFOR command in the PTT building in
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the ELMO is working again. So if you
3 need to return to the document, you may do so.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Indjic, the document that you have on your right, that is
6 before you, you said this was the document of the main staff of the army
7 of Republika Srpska which was sent to the command and also to the command
8 of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. Can you please read item 5 of this
10 A. Approval of movement of UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid convoys
11 cannot be given orally by phone, but exclusively through written documents
12 of the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the corps command.
13 Liaison officers with UNPROFOR do not have the authority to approve the
14 movement of UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid convoys."
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Indjic, can you tell us who signed this document?
16 A. This document was signed by the chief of staff of the Army of
17 Republika Srpska, General Manojlo Milovanovic.
18 Q. This document is dated 6th of August, 1993.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the type of document in relation to the approval of
21 UNPROFOR like you mentioned before?
22 A. Yes, yes. There were several warnings and documents about the
23 authority to approve movement of convoys.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I do not know whether the translation
1 of the document, but if you look at the English text as to who signed this
2 document, are there any...? Well, let's say the Chamber is divided in its
3 opinion on who signed the document in English. I can tell you that
4 Judge Nieto-Navia has Brigadier General Manojlo Milovanovic, whereas the
5 Presiding Judge has --
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I've made a mistake. Yes,
7 I'm aware of that. The second document, when I was putting them together,
8 I attached a different page of the document. When I see what's on the
9 screen, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You think you made a mistake. But the Chamber was
11 provided with different documents as far as the English translation is
12 concerned. I've got Stanislav Galic as the one who signed the document.
13 And it's a bit shorter as well, mine. So there are...
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document that the
15 Defence was going to show the witness, 1840, the second page of that
16 document has obviously been mistakenly attached as a translation for this
17 original. I think that is what the problem is.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think to some of the documents, because we have
19 different versions within the Chamber. I think I got the wrong one, and
20 my colleagues have the right one, I take it. Could you at least provide
21 the Presiding Judge, and let's check with the Prosecution, do you have a
22 document of which the second page --
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found it.
24 MR. IERACE: Yes, we've got the correct one, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll return the wrong one to you,
1 Ms. Pilipovic.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a sufficient number of
3 copies of translations.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We require another one because the copy given to the
5 witness was the wrong one as well, as far as I can see.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps with your leave, Your
7 Honour, I can prepare that copy for tomorrow morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I please check the...
9 Ms. Pilipovic, you again provided a wrong translation. Could you
10 please provide a second page in the translation numbered 6789 with the
11 signature of Milovanovic, and not, as you did again, an unnumbered second
12 page with the signature of General Galic in the translation.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but the last name and
14 the signature are the same.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No, they aren't. They were not in the previous
16 version you gave us.
17 Yes, now we've got the right one.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Mr. Indjic, so on this document, you said that the document was
22 signed by Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic, chief of staff.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just before we looked at this document, we were talking about the
25 period before the conflict broke out, and that your offices were in the
1 PTT building as a liaison officer in the group with the liaison with
2 UNPROFOR and the warring parties. Can you tell us precisely, when you say
3 from the beginning of the conflict, can you give us a date and also until
4 when were you in the PTT building with your -- that was the location for
5 your premises?
6 A. I think that the premises at the PTT building were established at
7 the end of May for all the three parties in the armed conflict in the
8 former Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the office of the liaison officer of
9 the Army of Republika Srpska was operational until September 1992 when
10 there was a suspension.
11 Q. When you tell us that the offices were operational until September
12 1992, and that when you say that there was a suspension, this suspension,
13 was it in relation to the arrival of General Galic as the commander of the
14 Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
15 A. No. It was caused by physical threats addressed to us that myself
16 and the colleague who was with me in the office and who was representing
17 the civilian authorities, Dr. Vlado Lukic, later on he was the prime
18 minister of the Republika Srpska government, that we would be killed.
19 These threats were addressed to us by a famous Sarajevo criminal, Samir
20 Kahvedzic, also known as Krusko. And this was feasible realistically
21 speaking because the office was located on the ground floor of that
22 facility, and on that side the facility was not secured by UNPROFOR
24 Q. Mr. Indjic, can you tell us where were your premises, if you had
25 them, and where were they located after that suspension, that is, starting
1 from September 1992?
2 A. After the withdrawal from the PTT building, the office was
3 established in the part of the building where the command of the
4 Sarajevo Romanija Corps was, or more precisely, in the left wing of that
5 building. Opposite the part of the building where the operations room was
6 and the commander's office. They were in the right wing of the building.
7 Q. So, Mr. Indjic, your offices from September were located in the
8 building of the command in Lukavica?
9 A. Yes. Except that after a series of talks with the
10 sector -- Sarajevo sector commander and the guarantee given on the
11 question of security of liaison officers at the UNPROFOR command, later
12 on, after a certain period, the office was again opened at the PTT
13 building, although I personally did not go back there.
14 Q. When you say that you personally did not go back there to the PTT
15 building, did you have a contact from your office at Lukavica? Did you
16 have a contact with the office at the PTT building? And if you did, what
17 kind of contact was that?
18 A. We had a permanent, 24-hour contact between Lukavica office at
19 the -- and the PTT building office. This was a telephone contact, and it
20 was used only for routine matters because the telephone cable went across
21 the territory under enemy control. And therefore, the conversations were
22 monitored and other types of communication, and that was necessary which
23 was the actual direct arrival of liaison officers to the command to
24 Lukavica. He would be brought by UNPROFOR members. And if he needed
25 deliver some mail or be given some instructions for further work, he would
1 then come himself to the Lukavica building command.
2 Q. Mr. Indjic, when you told us that you did not have the authority as
3 a liaison officer to approve movement of UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid, as
4 far as I've understood, without the approval of the superior organ, you
5 were not able to take certain decisions. Did I understand you correctly
6 that you did not have -- you did not have the authority to resolve any
7 request at the Sarajevo Romanija Corps as a liaison officer?
8 A. Not me personally, or any other member of the group, liaison
9 group, with UNPROFOR, who was on duty as a liaison officer. None of us
10 had any authority to, on our own authority, decide or resolve something or
11 approve anything on our own initiative.
12 Q. Mr. Indjic, since you're telling us about the cooperation with
13 UNPROFOR, can you tell us, in relation to that part of the duties, that
14 is, cooperation with UNPROFOR, what kind of requests did you receive from
16 A. Most of the requests that came from UNPROFOR were related to the
17 approval of various kinds of movement, whether convoys, humanitarian aid,
18 or changing shifts of units. The second kind of requests was asking for
19 approval to -- for assistance during various humanitarian missions and
20 repairs to infrastructures. Electricity, network, water or gas, and
21 similar. Another kind of request that we received, these were requests
22 related to the organisation of meetings on -- at various levels.
23 Q. When you tell us that one type of request that you received from
24 UNPROFOR was organisation at various levels, organisation of meetings at
25 various levels, can you tell us what kind of meetings were there and at
1 what levels?
2 A. In order to establish good cooperation with United Nations
3 representatives, in Republika Srpska and also in the Army of Republika
4 Srpska, at various levels there were organs, bodies, that were
5 established. And they were responsible for this kind of cooperation. At
6 the political level, a committee for cooperation with United Nations
7 representatives, was established, and this was led by late Professor
8 Nikola Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic. The level of the Army of Republika
9 Srpska matters were discussed by a joint working group. This mixed or
10 joint working group encompassed representatives of main staffs of the
11 warring parties and UNPROFOR representatives.
12 A lower level was a joint military commission, joint military
13 commissions were established, I believe, in 1993. And they encompassed
14 the corps level. Meetings at lower levels were generally not held.
15 Q. Mr. Indjic, you told us that at the level of the Army of Republika
16 Srpska, in that army, a working group was formed. And representatives of
17 the warring factions and UNPROFOR representatives participated in it.
18 Have I understood you correctly?
19 A. Yes. A mixed working group.
20 Q. Mr. Indjic, do you personally know anything about the work of that
21 mixed working group within the army of Republika Srpska? And if you do
22 know anything about this, were you present at these meetings, and who was
23 present, who represented -- who represented the warring factions?
24 A. I'm familiar with the work of this mixed working group because as
25 liaison officer, because of the organisation of the meeting, because of
1 interpreting at those meetings, I was present at almost all the meetings
2 of this body unless I was absent for private reasons at the time. Various
3 issues were discussed at these meetings, issues of a general nature. And
4 representatives of the main staffs of the warring factions were present.
5 If the result of the negotiations of those representatives resulted in the
6 signing of some kind of agreement, then at a meeting at which the
7 agreement would be signed, the chiefs of the main staffs of the warring
8 factions would attend these meetings in such cases.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Indjic. We will also talk about agreements and the
10 agreements that were signed later on. But I'm now interested in that
11 mixed working group. In the command of the corps of the SRK, were there
12 such meetings with UNPROFOR representatives? And do you personally know
13 anything about those meetings?
14 A. As I said, there were joint military commissions at the corps
15 level, and these commissions were bodies that had to put into operation
16 what had been agreed on at the meetings of mixed working groups. And this
17 then had to be put in an order for the cause. And the meetings of these
18 joint mixed commissions would be held in neutral territory. Usually this
19 was at the Sarajevo airport which was under the control of the French
20 battalion, which was part of the UN.
21 Q. Mr. Indjic, have I understood you correctly, what was agreed
22 between the warring factions and with UNPROFOR at the level of that mixed
23 working group, with regard to what had to be implemented at a later stage,
24 you had commissions within the organisation of the Sarajevo Romanija
25 Corps, the purpose of which was to implement what had been agreed at the
1 level of the mixed working group, at the level of the warring factions?
2 A. Yes, that's correct. The joint working commission at the level of
3 the corps did implement and put into operation what had been agreed at the
4 level of the main staff. And at these joint military commissions, they
5 didn't even raise new issues. If it was necessary to discuss at the level
6 of the corps about a new issue, then this would be suggested -- it would
7 be suggested to the working group, to the military working group, that it
8 should first discuss the matter and adopt positions with regard to these
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind the
11 witness's answers, the Defence wants to show the witness two documents.
12 It's Document D1656 and Document 1655.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Which of the documents you would like to have first
14 on the ELMO, Ms. Pilipovic?
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 1655.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Usher, would you please first return the other document to the
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Indjic, you have document D1655 in front of you.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us what kind of document this is. Do you recognise
24 A. Yes, this is a regular combat report from the command of the
25 Sarajevo Romanija Corps addressed to the main staff of the
1 Republika Srpska army.
2 Q. The document is dated the 5th of November, 1992.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you read item 2 in this document.
5 A. "A meeting of the mixed group is ongoing organised by UNPROFOR,
6 and our team is being led by the chief of staff -- is headed by the chief
7 of staff."
8 Q. Mr. Indjic, do you have Document 1656 in front of you?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Am I right in understanding that the witness only
12 read the last two lines of item 2? I don't know whether your question has
13 been properly translated. Did you ask the witness to read item 2 or to
14 read the last two lines of item 2?
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The last two lines of item 2. I
16 said paragraph 2 of item 2.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it's clear to us.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Mr. Indjic, you have Document 1656 in front of you?
21 A. Yes. Do you recognise this document?
22 A. Yes. This is also a regular combat report with the situation at
23 1800 hours.
24 Q. Can you read out paragraphs 3 and 4 of item 2.
25 A. A meeting of the mixed group was held organised by UNPROFOR.
1 Three issues were discussed. Opening up humanitarian corridors,
2 demilitarising the Sarajevo area, establishing air corridors.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Indjic, can you tell us whether these are the tasks
4 of the mixed group which held meetings at the corps level?
5 A. These are tasks which would be put into operation at the corps
6 level, but they would be agreed at the level of the mixed working group.
7 Q. You told us that you attended those meetings. And you told us
8 about your role. Can you tell us whether those meetings were also held in
9 the period from September 1992 until August 1994? And if so, how
10 frequently were they held?
11 A. Meetings were, as a rule, held quite regularly. I could even say
12 that once a month or once every six weeks, but this was not the case
13 during periods when the fighting was intense, and I can say quite freely,
14 during periods that nothing other owner the war functioned properly.
15 Q. Mr. Indjic, can you tell us at those meetings when main staffs
16 of -- when representatives of the main staffs from both warring factions
17 were present, can you tell us whether the problem, the issue of shelling
18 was discussed at such meetings?
19 A. No.
20 Q. At those meetings, were the military activities of both sides
22 A. The issues that were discussed and that had to do with military
23 activities was there to do with attempts to put an end to military action,
24 at least for a certain period of time, if not completely. Or rather, they
25 had to do with attempting to reach a cease-fire agreement, attempting to
1 establish a truce.
2 Q. To the extent that I have understood your answer, at those
3 meetings, they would discuss agreements on cease-fires? They would
4 discuss respecting truces?
5 A. Yes, they would discuss establishing and respecting truces.
6 Q. At those meetings of the mixed military group, since UNPROFOR
7 representatives were also present, was the issue of protests discussed?
8 A. No.
9 Q. As a liaison officer, can you tell us whether you received
10 protests from UNPROFOR at your post at Lukavica, and if you did, what form
11 did these protests take?
12 A. Yes, we did receive protests in our office, and they were sent to
13 us in a written and in a verbal form.
14 Q. When you say a written and verbal form, I'll first of all ask you
15 about verbal protests. How many verbal protests were made in the course
16 of one month or in the course of a day?
17 A. Well, it's difficult to answer this question because it wasn't the
18 same throughout all the periods. When there was a truce and the truce was
19 respected, there were very few protests or there were none at all. And
20 this was not the case when the fighting was intense and during periods
21 when the fighting was intense. It's very difficult for me to answer your
22 question precisely to tell you how many such protests there were.
23 Q. Can you tell us, which form of protest was more frequent, written
24 ones or oral ones?
25 A. If I could put this in terms of percentage, 95 per cent of the
1 protests were written protests. There were far more --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Indjic, could you please repeat your last answer.
4 It was -- the question was: Which form of protests was more frequent,
5 written ones or oral ones? Could you please repeat what you answered.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Verbal protests were more frequent.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Since you have told us that verbal protests were more frequent,
10 can you briefly tell us how these verbal protests were made by UNPROFOR?
11 A. Well, first of all, I have to explain that within the UNPROFOR
12 structure, there were various levels which were in a position to lodge
13 protests. For example, there were the UN military observers. That was
14 one level. There were liaison officers from UNPROFOR battalions. That
15 was a second level. There was the command of the Sarajevo sector, the
16 UNPROFOR command of the Sarajevo sector. That would be the third level.
17 And then the fourth level would be the UNPROFOR command for the former
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina. The majority of verbal protests came from the UN
19 military observers and from liaison officers from the UNPROFOR battalion
20 who were located in Sarajevo.
21 Q. Mr. Indjic, when you say that the majority of the verbal
22 protests - and we are talking about verbal protests - when you say that
23 you received the majority of these protests, such protests from UN
24 observers, can you tell us whether you personally received all these
25 protests, and if so, can you tell us who processed these protests? Who
1 dealt with them?
2 A. Well, just for the sake of clarity, I'd like to repeat that you
3 can't equate the group for cooperation with UNPROFOR and Indjic Milenko.
4 It's not the same thing. I was just one of the liaison officers in that
5 group. So it would be more appropriate to say that the protests were sent
6 via the group for the cooperation with UNPROFOR. And whether that
7 concerned myself or one of my colleagues, that is irrelevant. But when we
8 received protests from the military observers, and the conditions they had
9 were the best for lodging protests because our offices were more or less
10 next to each other, only 2 metres separated our offices, they had channels
11 of communication which were open 24 hours a day, when we received a
12 protest, we would examine to see whether all the essential elements of the
13 protest were there in order for us to be able to respond. And let me
14 clarify this.
15 Q. Mr. Indjic, we will return to clarification -- the matter of
16 clarifying the protests that you received in your office from UN military
17 observers. If I understood you correctly they were in the same building
18 you were located in?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I just want this to be clearer. You said that the protests from
21 liaison officers of the battalion and of the sector command for Sarajevo,
22 and you said for the command for Bosnia and Herzegovina, you mentioned
23 these protests?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us whether the written or verbal form of these
1 protests, were they also directed to your office? Did you receive them in
2 your office, and who processed those protests? We're talking about four
3 categories of protests. Let's go back to the first group?
4 A. It all went through the office of the liaison officers, any
5 communication from UNPROFOR, including protests. So it wasn't possible
6 for such protests to be sent to someone in the corps command in another
7 way. It wasn't possible to bypass the office of the liaison officers.
8 The protests received would be sent, would be forwarded to the duty
9 officer in the corps command, and the duty officer, after performing the
10 duties that he had to perform, would inform the commander of the protest.
11 And if the commander wasn't present, then he would inform the chief of
13 Q. If we're talking about the protests to the -- from the command for
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, did you receive such protests, and did you forward
15 them and deal with these protests in a similar way?
16 A. Protests from the UNPROFOR commander of Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 were always addressed to the main staff of the Republika Srpska army.
18 They were usually protests which were in a written form, and it was our
19 duty to forward that protest as rapidly as possible to the main staff of
20 the Republika Srpska army. The situation was made easier, as I've already
21 said, when an UNPROFOR office for liaison officers was established in
22 Pale, and they took over those tasks.
23 Q. Thank you. When you said that most of the verbal protests were
24 ones that you received from UN observers, can you tell us what the
25 contents of those protests was, the protests that, as you said, you
1 forwarded to the duty officer in the corps command?
2 A. To make things a little clearer, I'll just briefly say that the UN
3 military observers were deployed at observation posts on both sides of the
4 front line. Their commands were in the corps commands, and they were
5 called HQ Lima and HQ Papa.
6 The military observers usually only forwarded the protests made by
7 one of the warring factions, and they forwarded to the other warring
8 faction through its channels of communication.
9 Q. Mr. Indjic, to the extent that I have understood your answer, if
10 you, as the duty officer, received a verbal protest from UN members, you
11 are saying that they would be relaying you protests made by a warring
12 faction. In this particular case, it would be a protest made by the BH
13 army. Can you tell us what the contents of those protests were? And you
14 have told us that it was usually a protest made by one of the warring
15 factions. What were the contents of the protests that you would receive?
16 We're still talking about verbal protests.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: I stand to be corrected, Mr. President, but the
19 question just asked referred to protests by the BH army, I think implying
20 that the witness had said that. I don't know that the witness has said
21 that. Perhaps that might be clarified.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But didn't the witness make a distinction --
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said the warring
24 factions, and I provided that as an example.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness made a distinction --
1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. Ms. Pilipovic, could you please
3 conclude in --
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness just answer this
6 Q. So Mr. Indjic, my question was what were the contents of the verbal
7 protests that a UN observer would forward to you? And you said that these
8 were mostly protests made by one of the warring factions.
9 A. The protests mostly had to do with the alleged violation of the
10 truce, or perhaps with action taken in certain areas. On the whole, we
11 took each protest very seriously. The first thing that had to be done was
12 to determine whether the protest was complete in order to see whether any
13 action could be taken on the basis of the protest.
14 Q. Mr. Indjic, we'll stop at that point. You said see whether the
15 protest was complete. We will have a break now, and then you can continue
16 with your analysis and tell us what else had to be done when you received
17 a protest.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Indjic, may I instruct you not to speak with
19 anyone about the testimony you've given in this Court until now and you're
20 still about to give.
21 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and we expect you back tomorrow morning at 9.00.
25 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Just very
2 briefly, the French booth, battalions, and not a battalion. The witness
3 was speaking in the plural. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a reference as far as line and page are
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not exactly, Mr. President. I
7 heard it a while ago, but we'll certainly find it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that would certainly assist those who are
9 working on the transcript at night.
10 May I urge the parties, not because it's not going the right way,
11 but we are all informed that the present witness would like to leave
12 before the weekend. So therefore, if full efficiency could be achieved,
13 we might be able to achieve that.
14 Could I ask the specific attention of the parties to it especially
15 because the Chamber would not like to be put in a position where we had to
16 hurry up with our own questions, if we would have any. So may I ask the
17 cooperation of the parties.
18 Then we'll adjourn until 9.00, tomorrow morning. Same courtroom.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
20 at 7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
21 the 30th day of January, 2003,
22 at 9.00 a.m.