Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18806

1 Monday, 3 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Is the Prosecution ready to resume the cross-examination of

11 Witness DP2?

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we've -- oh, no, we'll first perhaps

14 deal with the documents of last week. That would be a better idea.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: The witness Indic has written down the name of one of

17 the interpreters. It has been spelled out and it appears rightly in the

18 last transcript. So, therefore, there's no need to formally mark for

19 identification the small note the witness prepared in that respect.

20 Madam Registrar, apart from that irrelevant document, could you

21 guide us through the relevant ones.

22 THE REGISTRAR: D184, transcript of interview conducted in

23 Sarajevo, 28 February to 1 March 2000; D453 and 453.1, regular combat

24 report with situation in 1600 hours for VRS main staff and forwarded

25 command post, re UNPROFOR activities 04/02/94; D560 and D560.1, regular

Page 18807

1 combat report with the situation at 1700 for VRS main staff, re activity

2 of UNPROFOR 30/03/94; D561 and D561.1, regular combat report with the

3 situation at 1700 for VRS main staff, re activities of UNPROFOR 31/03/94;

4 D1656 and D1656.1, regular combat report with the situation at 1800 for

5 VRS main staff, re UNPROFOR organised a meeting of mixed group 05/11/92;

6 D1655, D1655.1, regular combat report with situation at 1400 for VRS

7 staff, meeting of mixed group in organisation of UNPROFOR, 05/11/92;

8 D1839, D1839.1, order of the main staff forwarded to all subordinate

9 corps, the document dated 6 August 1993 regarding the movement of UNPROFOR

10 and humanitarian aid convoys; D1840, D1840.1, protest that was sent by SRK

11 command and UNPROFOR command regarding the violation of the cease-fire, 21

12 April 1994; D467 and D467.1, regular combat military report with situation

13 at 1700 for VRS main staff, re units respecting signed truce, 21/02/94;

14 P3777, order Sarajevo Romanija Corps command dated 29/01/1993; P3777.1,

15 English translation; P3449A, photograph; P3778, report dated 04/02/94.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have noticed that the

19 cassette that we wanted to tender hasn't been mentioned in this list.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The video cassette, you mean?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The video that we saw, that we

22 watched last Friday.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Has a copy been provided -- we have seen it, but

25 having provided the copy to -- or is it still in the technical booth, or

Page 18808

1 where did it go?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I assume that

3 it's still in the technical booth because the hearing of Mr. Indic hadn't

4 been completed. But I think it's in the other courtroom, so I don't know

5 where it is actually located, where this cassette is actually located now.

6 It was in the hands of the technicians.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then deal with it after the break and try to

8 find out where the cassette is.

9 Since I did not hear any objections, the document as listed by --

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


12 MR. IERACE: In relation to the -- the videotape and the

13 transcript of interview, I maintain my objection that I made at the time

14 that the Defence sought to show it.

15 In relation to the various combat reports, the Prosecution takes

16 its usual stance, that only those parts which are the subject of evidence

17 should be tendered.

18 Thank you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we heard the objections against the

20 video already before and we have taken a decision on that and it was

21 introduced perhaps in a bit different way from what the Defence had in

22 mind. But we'll take a decision on that as soon as the video has been

23 retrieved and the other reports admitted to the extent that they are the

24 subject of examination of the witness and to the extent that they have

25 been translated.

Page 18809

1 Yes.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think Mr. Ierace addressed me. But is

4 there -- is it a new issue you want to deal with, or is it something on

5 the --

6 Yes.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may. With

8 regard to the document, the Defence would like to point out that it's

9 obvious that these documents always have stamps, and in certain cases

10 signatures. And naturally the authenticity of the document can't be

11 contested. So even if the documents haven't always been translated, the

12 Defence has no comment to make with regard to these documents.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you say the -- "naturally the authenticity

14 of the documents can't be contested," do I have to understood that it is

15 the position of the Defence that if a photocopy of a document bearing a

16 stamp is there, that the authenticity is on from that moment --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I said

18 that it can't be -- well, it can always be contested, but less and less so

19 to the extent that the witness has recognised the document as being a

20 document the origin of which is in the corps or in a certain part of the

21 army, et cetera. That's what I wanted to say.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's not necessary, you would say, to have

23 the testimony of the person who signed himself or who put the stamp

24 himself. That's not necessary to establish the authenticity of the

25 document.

Page 18810

1 I do understand the position of the Defence.

2 Then Mr. Ierace, you wanted to raise the next issue, I take it.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. On Friday and today,

4 there have been some filings in these proceedings and some correspondence,

5 in particular in relation to two issues: Whether the accused gives

6 evidence; and secondly, matters to do with the expert witnesses.

7 The Prosecution could respond in writing by way of a filing.

8 Alternatively, given that both issues are very pressing, if I could be

9 given a few minutes either later in this session or at the outset

10 tomorrow, I could respond orally, which perhaps would save some time. But

11 there are a number of issues which require immediate -- an immediate

12 response. To give an example, I note that the Defence has still not

13 provided a list of exhibits or a time estimate for the testimony of

14 General Galic should he give evidence, and we're still waiting on some

15 translations of annexes.

16 So Mr. President, the matter for the Trial Chamber is to whether

17 you would prefer me to proceed orally or in writing.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is willing to hear whatever observations

20 you would like to make in respect of the filings at this very moment,

21 Mr. -- But if you would prefer to do it later this afternoon, it's fine as

22 well.

23 MR. IERACE: I would, Mr. President. I've received some

24 correspondence in the last few minutes. So perhaps at the beginning of

25 the next -- at the beginning of the next break.

Page 18811


2 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do it then.

4 Then -- but now ten minutes later, is the Prosecution still ready

5 to resume the examination of Witness DP2?

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think I'm well informed that the witness was

8 protected by facial distortion and by pseudonym would be Witness DP2.

9 That means that we have to pull the curtains down when he enters the

10 courtroom.

11 Mr. Usher, perhaps with the assistance of -- I -- that's it.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, before I start, if I may have

13 some indication as to how much time I'm left with.

14 JUDGE ORIE: As far as my recollection goes, you took

15 approximately some 40 minutes, I think, on the 11th of December. But I

16 just asked Madam Registrar to inform me about the time the

17 examination-in-chief took.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, it's 1 hour and 15 minutes, a bit

21 more -- 1 hour 20 minutes left for the Prosecution.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon and welcome back, Mr. DP2. May I

25 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

Page 18812

1 at the beginning of your testimony, early December 2002.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I'm glad to be here

3 again.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, I think that the curtains may be

5 pulled up again.

6 The counsel for the Prosecution will now resume its

7 cross-examination, Mr. DP2.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm ready.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I proceed, Mr. President?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Ms. Mahindaratne.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]

14 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. On the previous day you testified that a friend of yours - and I

17 will not mention his name, because you provided us with the name under

18 protective measures - that this friend informed you that the two mortars

19 located in front of the kindergarten which you marked with -- marked the

20 map with figure "2" and the two mortars located in front of the Winter

21 Olympics museum, which you marked with figure "3" were destroyed by shells

22 fired from the Serb side. And I'm referring to evidence in transcript

23 page number 17161.

24 A. Yes. That was what I said. That was at the beginning of May 1982

25 [as interpreted].

Page 18813

1 Q. You were informed of this when, sir? When did your friend inform

2 of this? Perhaps if you could give the month and the year.

3 A. Well, we saw each other two months later. So if that was in May,

4 then he told me about this in June -- July.

5 Q. You said 1982, if I heard you right. Is it 1982 or 1992?

6 A. 1992. 1992.

7 Q. So you were informed by this friend that they were destroyed

8 in -- you were informed of this by your friend in June 1992. That is your

9 testimony.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. In view of that, sir, how do you explain your previous

12 testimony -- and I'm referring to transcript page number 17189 -- that you

13 saw two mortars at each of these locations in the period December 1992 to

14 January 1993? Because your testimony is that in June 1992 your friend

15 informed that they were destroyed.

16 A. Yes, that's what I said. Those mortars which fired on the Serbian

17 side, they were destroyed and the kindergarten was set on fire, and in

18 December 1992 or January 1993 at the same location I only saw two mortars.

19 Q. Sir, permit me to remind you. Your testimony was that -- if I may

20 read your own words to you, transcript page number 17161.

21 In reference to the mortars located in front of the kindergarten

22 and the Winter Olympics museum which you marked on the map, you stated:

23 "I didn't hear, but a friend who lives near these two checkpoints, near

24 these two locations, these two sites of mortars, he told me that these two

25 places were hit from the Serb side and that these four mortars were

Page 18814

1 destroyed."

2 Your testimony was referring to those mortars. You were referring

3 to those particular mortars. You said that your friend referred to they

4 were destroyed. Now you're contradicting yourself, I put it to you, sir.

5 A. I agree with what you have read out. That is how it was and that

6 is what I stated.

7 Q. Sir, I put it to you that your testimony with regard to mortars

8 being present at location marked by you as number 2 and number 3 is

9 incorrect.

10 A. So you're saying that in December or January 1992/1993 I didn't

11 see --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if one wants to

13 refer to numbers 2 and 3, I think it would be reasonable to show the

14 witness the map again, because I myself no longer know where number 2 and

15 number 3 were located.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne is entitled to do so, but it's not

17 the exact location that counts but the possible contradiction where the

18 witness referred to, as Ms. Mahindaratne puts it to him, to the same

19 mortars he indicated on the map. And I think it's not necessary to do

20 that. But of course Ms. Mahindaratne is allowed to do it.

21 Ms. Mahindaratne is asking you for a comment on her understanding

22 of your testimony, that is, that you heard from a friend that the mortars

23 you indicated on the map -- and she has been talking about mortars in

24 front of the kindergarten and mortars in front of the Olympic

25 museum -- were already destroyed prior to the time you said you saw them

Page 18815

1 at these same locations. Could you please try to answer that question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly couldn't have seen the

3 same mortars if they'd already been destroyed. I saw some other mortars

4 several months later at the same two locations. And with your permission,

5 Your Honours, last time I described those places I made an effort and

6 three or four days ago I made some photographs of those two locations. So

7 I can show the photographs too. I promise to bring them to this trial.


9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I can show them to you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Usually if any photographs are introduced, it's done

11 by the parties. So if you would offer these to the parties, these

12 photographs for inspection, then the parties could decide whether or not

13 they would like you to -- whether they would like to tender these

14 photographs in evidence.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That won't be necessary, Mr. President. I will

16 move on to another area from here.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With all due respect, because

21 you spoke of the parties, because we haven't been in touch with this

22 witness obviously. Could Mr. Usher let us have a look at the photographs,

23 please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps first they should be shown to the Chamber so

25 that we know what the witness is offering to the parties.

Page 18816

1 Mr. Usher, could you please receive the photographs from the ...

2 May I just ask you: I take it that you took these photographs

3 because of the locations being shown on it. Is that correct?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And these photographs will

5 corroborate my description of the location where I saw the mortars.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you -- that's what you expect.

7 The photographs showing locations are, as far as I understand, you

8 put them at the disposal of the parties to see whether it will be of any

9 use for them to use them in evidence. They may be given to the Defence

10 and to the Prosecution. I take it that you'll have a look at it and then

11 see whether it could assist you.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I proceed in the meanwhile, Mr. President?

13 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I proceed in the meanwhile?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed meanwhile.


17 Q. Sir, when I questioned you about the description of the Winter

18 Olympics museum at which you claim you saw two mortars, you described it

19 as a building with three storeys. Is it your position that at the time

20 you saw -- you claim you saw these mortars, the building consisted of

21 three storeys?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was the building intact at that time?

24 A. It was not intact. It had damage. It's damaged today, and it's

25 possible to see it on the photograph. It has not been renovated.

Page 18817

1 Q. Wasn't it the case, sir, that this museum was in fact very badly

2 damaged to the point of destruction in April 1992 due to shell fire and it

3 has been repaired since, much later, after the war?

4 A. The museum must have been hit in May, not in April 1992. And the

5 building looks very much the same as it did then. It was damaged and it's

6 damaged today.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown a map bearing -- it's

8 number D1817.

9 Q. Witness, you marked Markale market on this map, south of the

10 locations marked as "2" and "3," the blue circle.

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. And you testified that Markale market is located on Marsal Tito

13 Street.

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can the map be placed on the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. DP2, could you leave the map on the ELMO so

17 that we also can see it. Yes.


19 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that Markale market is not located on

20 Marsal Tito Street but is located on the street referred to as Mula

21 Mustafe Baseskije Street, which is the street joining Marsal Tito Street

22 on the east end of Marsal Tito Street, that is, to the -- or further east

23 of the location you marked as Markale market. Could you please place your

24 pointer on the position you marked as Markale market.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we, please, zoom in on the specific location of

Page 18818

1 the --


3 Q. If you take your pointer further east to the position where number

4 "101" is, I suggest to you, sir, that Markale market is in fact located on

5 Mula Mustafe Baseskija Street under the number 101, very near the

6 cathedral, which is about -- would be about 300 metres to the east of the

7 location you marked.

8 A. It's incredible that having lived in Sarajevo for 40 years, I now

9 have to show and demonstrate to the Trial Chamber how much you are in

10 error and how much you are mistaken.

11 The church is very far away from Markale, and Markale is located

12 next to the rail, the tram rails of Tito street. It is true that it's

13 called Mula Mustafe Baseskija, but here you can see Marsala Tito Street,

14 and the last "T" is exactly located in relation to the Markale market, and

15 that has always been Marsala Tito Street and it's called that today.

16 And these two mortars were 100 to 150 metres as the crow flies.

17 And if you show me those two photographs that I took, I would tell you

18 that it's exactly behind the building of that part of the staircase where

19 the Markale market is located. I think you're wasting your time. You're

20 trying to convince me where Markale is located.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP2, there's no reason to tell any counsel

22 whether Prosecution of --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... In that time.

25 Ms. Mahindaratne, may I ask you is there any dispute between the

Page 18819

1 parties where the Markale market is?

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. My question -- point was

3 that this witness claimed that Markale market was his point of reference

4 in identifying other locations and...

5 JUDGE ORIE: You say he marked it wrongly on the map.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I will move on now. I

7 don't intend to stay on this point any longer.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


10 Q. Sir, you testified that the kindergarten in front of which you

11 claimed to see two mortars, which is now the Embassy of the Holy See, was

12 located on a street called Logavina Street, and I'm referring to

13 transcript page 17191. And I suggest to you -- and I suggest to you,

14 witness, that that is incorrect and the Embassy of the Holy See is in fact

15 located on the a street named -- I will spell it to you since my

16 pronunciation of it will be bad. P-e-h-l-i -- P-e-h-l-i-b-a-n-s with a

17 full diacritic and A. P-e-h-l-i-b-a-n-s-a Street.

18 A. Oh, well, I apologise for what I said earlier. But now I'm going

19 to tell you that you're in the right. I made a mistake. That's not the

20 street. It's the street that before the war was called Vuka Karadzica

21 Street. And I hope you will forgive me. I have made a mistake with these

22 two streets. And now I presume that this is the new name for this street.

23 But before the war, it was called Vuka Karadzica Street.

24 Q. Witness, you testified that you saw on 28th October 1993, at the

25 location you marked with figure "4" the number of weapons, which was the

Page 18820

1 headquarters you claimed were of -- was the headquarters of Caco and his

2 unit.

3 A. Of the 10th Mountain Brigade of the commander Musan Topalovic,

4 also known as Caco.

5 And Your Honours, you can have a look at the photograph. I took

6 it. That's where the staff was --

7 Q. Let me interrupt you due to time restraint. If you -- that was

8 your evidence, in fact, that you saw this on the 28th of October, 1993?

9 A. I'd just like to change the date because in my diary, which I have

10 in Sarajevo, I said the 28th, but it's true that that was on the 26th of

11 October. The 26th of October, that's when Caco died. Not on the 28th but

12 on the 26th. And I saw that in the afternoon, sometime about 1900 hours.

13 Q. [Microphone not activated]

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon.

16 Q. Was that the only day or the only time you saw this, at that

17 particular location, or did you have the opportunity to see these weapons

18 at that location either prior to that day or after that day?

19 A. I explained last time as well that I saw that in the course of an

20 inter-Muslim conflict, when myself, my wife, and 50 or 60 other people --

21 Q. If I may interrupt you. Just a yes or no will suffice. Did you

22 happen to see these weapons either before or after that day?

23 A. In that room where I was a hostage, only on that day. I couldn't

24 have seen it any other day because that was in his main staff.

25 Q. Can you describe what this location was like. Was it just a room,

Page 18821

1 or was it a particular building? A brief description would suffice.

2 A. I can give you a brief description while the photograph is there

3 for you to have a look at it. It was just next to the building of the

4 military command. It used to be of the Yugoslav People's Army. And in

5 the war that's where the SFOR was located, the unit of the Egyptian Army.

6 It's a ground-floor building. We, the hostages, were in a large building

7 which could have been a dining hall, and when we left, in the second

8 building, as we were leaving, and also in another room I saw all those

9 weapons.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please have the microphone

11 adjusted, the microphone put closer.

12 A. The photograph is with the Defence, and you can have a look at the

13 building. It is more of a prefabricated building.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP2, there's no need to refer to photographs

15 until the parties have decided to pay attention to these photographs and

16 tender them into evidence.


18 Q. Is it your position, sir, that the Egyptian SFOR was also located

19 in the same building?

20 A. Not in the same building. The Egyptian forces were located in the

21 former military building. It's a very large building. And next to that

22 building, 10 metres from there, was the staff of the 10th Mountain

23 Brigade.

24 Q. So your position is that the Egyptian SFOR was located just 10

25 metres from this particular location, which you have marked as number 4.

Page 18822

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. You testified that you'd been to the brewery, which you marked on

3 the map with figure "5."

4 A. Yes. We brought water there.

5 Q. How many times have you visited this location, during the period

6 you were in Sarajevo?

7 A. Well, I would say every day. Sometimes once; sometimes twice.

8 Q. According to your own testimony, you never saw any weapons or

9 indications of production of weapons at the brewery, and you only heard

10 rumours to such effect.

11 A. Yes. I didn't see. I only heard.

12 Q. Your testimony was that these rumours were confirmed, at least to

13 you, by what you saw and marked with figure "6" and that you saw two men

14 testing weapons at the location you marked with figure "6"?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What is the distance between location 5 and location 6?

17 A. You mean the brewery and that place?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Well, as the crow flies, about 500 metres.

20 Q. You testified that you saw three or four tanks below the Ciglane

21 tunnel and near the engineering and architecture faculty.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You marked those two locations with figures "7" and "8."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many tanks did you see at the tunnel, at the location you

Page 18823

1 marked with figure 8, that is, the east end of the tunnel?

2 A. One tank.

3 Q. And how many tanks did you see at the -- at least near the

4 faculties?

5 A. Two. Two.

6 Q. When did you see the tanks near the tunnel? At least if you can

7 give a month and a year.

8 A. I saw these tunnels often and any citizen of Sarajevo that

9 happened on that market or was moving towards the hospital would be able

10 to see these tanks. I saw the tanks from about mid-1992 until I left

11 Sarajevo, which was the 9th of June, 1994. They were hidden by these two

12 buildings, and that's where they moved.

13 Q. In reference to the tanks near the faculties, was it during the

14 same period that you saw the tanks there?

15 A. Which period of time?

16 Q. When you said "mid-1992 to June 1994," you saw these tanks, are

17 you saying you saw these tanks near the faculty buildings during the same

18 period?

19 A. Well, not during the same time. Sometimes I wouldn't see the tank

20 in the tunnel. It was probably inside. But regularly between the faculty

21 buildings, I would be able to see the tank.

22 Q. Sir, you marked the position you claim you saw the tanks near the

23 faculties with figure 7. Can you please examine the map again. And I'm

24 referring to the location marked with figure "7." That's the tunnel. I'm

25 referring to the faculties.

Page 18824

1 A. Number 7 is the tunnel. And here below in this faculty, from 8

2 towards the tunnel, that's where I saw the tanks. Here and here.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please zoom in on the part of the map the

4 witness is pointing at.

5 Would you please move it so, Mr. Usher, that we can see the

6 relevant part. If the map could be pulled down once a bit. Yes. Yes,

7 that's sufficient.


9 Q. Witness, what is the place you marked with number "8"? Could you

10 describe that place, the position marked with figure 8. What is that

11 place?

12 A. Number 8, I marked the place -- the location in the tunnel where

13 the tank would be. It's true I didn't mark it properly. It should be

14 marked as the entrance to the tunnel. I don't know why I marked it there.

15 I probably didn't see it well. But that is the location.

16 Q. And you claimed that you all saw tanks at the faculties, which you

17 marked with figure "7." Could you please place your pointer on figure 7.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, before we continue, could I just

19 verify that Mr. DP2, when you said your marking of number 8 was not

20 correct, did you then point at the western entrance of the tunnel as the

21 right location? Would you please point again at where you saw the tank.

22 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is now pointing to the western

24 entry of the tunnel rather than the eastern entry of the tunnel where he

25 made the marking number 8.

Page 18825

1 Please proceed.


3 Q. Witness, drawing your attention to the position marked 7. Now,

4 you claim that you saw tanks near the faculties which you said you would

5 mark or which you marked with figure "7."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I suggest to you, Witness, that the position you marked with

8 figure 7 is in fact a building belonging to the Kosevo hospital complex.

9 A. Not the hospital complex of Kosevo, but between the student

10 clinic, outpatient clinic, and the engineering architectural faculty.

11 Q. Witness, your testimony was that you saw tanks at the location

12 marked 7. Isn't that the case? That was your testimony.

13 A. Could you please repeat the question.

14 Q. Your testimony was that you saw tanks at the location you marked

15 with figure "7." That was your testimony. Or are you withdrawing that?

16 A. No, I don't withdraw that. I can believe that precise location

17 where I've put it on the map may not be perfectly good, but my description

18 is good, what I've said about it being located between the students'

19 outpatients clinic and engineering architectural faculty. That's where

20 the two tanks were.

21 Q. Witness, your testimony was - and I will read you testimony back

22 to you - at transcript page number 17169. You were asked, "How many have

23 you seen," referring to tanks. "Three or four." "Where?" "Below the

24 tunnel of Ciglane and near the engineering school, engineering faculty and

25 architecture faculty." That was your testimony.

Page 18826

1 Now, that was the location you marked with figure "7."

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. And I put it to you that the location you have marked with figure

4 "7" is not -- you do not find faculties there. It is in fact a building,

5 to be precise the traumatology department of the Kosevo hospital, it is

6 within the Kosevo hospital complex. That's where you have marked with

7 figure "7."

8 A. I'm saying that it's possibly that I didn't mark it properly. But

9 what I've told you, the description, you can read the description, and

10 that told that between the outpatients' clinic and the architectural

11 faculty. I can allow for the position that I've marked isn't proper, but

12 my description is correct. I didn't say that I saw the tanks in the

13 hospital.

14 Q. Sir, is it your position then that you are not too familiar with

15 this map you marked? That it's quite possible that you have -- your

16 markings may not be accurate?

17 A. Not accurate because the streets have changed their names, and I

18 really found it very difficult to find my bearings on this map. But now I

19 can have a look at it again and mark it properly and accurately.

20 Q. Sir, for somebody who, by your own claim, has lived in Sarajevo

21 for quite a long time, is it your position that you cannot recognise the

22 Kosevo hospital complex on a map as simple as this?

23 A. Well, the map in front of me is clear, but the one here, I

24 couldn't find my bearings. But I'm saying that I'm telling the truth, and

25 it was like I said. I know Sarajevo very well, and I really didn't say

Page 18827

1 that the tanks were in the hospital.

2 Q. You did not say it, but in marking --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, isn't it clear that the

4 marking -- the witness admitted that now two, three, or four times, that

5 the markings are not correct.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. I'll move --

7 JUDGE ORIE: It wouldn't be of any use to repeat it.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. I'll move on.



11 Q. Sir, I appreciate that in view of your own testimony, that your

12 markings are incorrect. But the other markings on this map made by you

13 are also unreliable?

14 A. You have to point this out to me on the map so that I can see it.

15 They are not incorrect.

16 Q. During this period that you saw these tanks, Witness, did you ever

17 see the tanks fire?

18 A. No, I didn't. But I heard that fire was opened from tanks and

19 that the tank at the entrance to the tunnel had been hit.

20 Q. Moving on to another area. You testified that you had seen

21 mortars placed in vehicles in Sarajevo. I'm referring to testimony on

22 page number 17149.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You described these vehicles as a van with a flatbed, a platform

25 at the back.

Page 18828

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you describe it further. Was it exposed on the three sides,

3 the platform, or were there -- were the sides raised above the platform?

4 Do you understand what I'm saying? What I'm asking is were there covers

5 on the three sides of the platform or was it a flat open platform?

6 A. There weren't any sides. That's for sure.

7 Q. Did you personally see these vehicles, or is it based on rumours

8 that you testified to this fact?

9 A. I personally saw those vehicles on many occasions. And all the

10 inhabitants of Sarajevo who were objective will confirm this.

11 Q. How many times did you see such vehicles?

12 A. Twenty-odd times.

13 Q. Could you please perhaps give the period during which you saw

14 these vehicles, perhaps the month and the year.

15 A. Not just the month and the year. I'll give you the time period.

16 The end of 1992 up until the first half of 1994, as far as I could follow

17 everything.

18 Q. Where were you when you saw these vehicles? Was it just walking

19 by -- on the street? Did the vehicles pass you? Or how did you see these

20 vehicles? What were the circumstances under which you saw these vehicles?

21 A. On about five occasions I saw fire being opened, so I had to run

22 to take shelter in my flat. But all the other ones were ones that I saw

23 when I was going -- when I was passing by, when I was going to perform my

24 work obligations. And it was not just myself who saw this. In all parts

25 of town, when speaking to my friends, they all claimed that there were

Page 18829

1 such vehicles, in Novo Sarajevo as well.

2 Q. Could you perhaps name some of the streets on which you saw these

3 vehicles. Perhaps specify the locations.

4 A. I don't know. Bistricka Street, and the street from the post

5 office. I don't exactly know the name. I don't know the exact name, but

6 it was near the fish restaurant -- the seafood restaurant. And then it

7 went upwards. That's where I personally saw those two tanks. And in the

8 Vuka Karadzica Street, which we have already mentioned. Near that

9 kindergarten.

10 Q. You said that you saw two tanks. What you mean by that? You said

11 "near the seafood restaurant. And then it went upwards. That's where I

12 personally saw those two tanks." What tanks are you referring to?

13 A. Not tanks. Mortars, mobile mortars. Not tanks. I'm talking

14 about mortars.

15 Q. At each time you saw these vehicles, did you see the weapons being

16 transported firing? Did you see them fire?

17 A. Yes. I saw fire being opened, and I saw how men and women,

18 Muslims, would go out of their homes and would chase those mortars from

19 their streets because they said, "After this, we'll no longer have a roof

20 above our heads. We'll no longer have any windows." And the Muslims

21 protested when such mortars arrived in their streets.

22 Q. If I may interrupt you. Now, you said that there were two types

23 of weapons you saw in these vehicles, mortars and anti-tank weapons. Is

24 that all, or did you see any other type of weapons being carried?

25 A. No. I mentioned those two types of weapons, and I said that I saw

Page 18830

1 peculiar transporters, homemade transporters enclosed in tin -- enclosed

2 by tin, and there was certain openings through which it was possible to

3 fire and to observe. I assume that that was the reason for these

4 openings.

5 Q. Sir, due to time restraint, I would appreciate it if you could

6 restrict your answer to my question.

7 Did you observe the direction towards which these weapons fired?

8 A. Towards Trebevic, towards the Serbian positions.

9 Q. Was it always the case that these weapons fired towards Trebevic,

10 or were there other positions the weapons fired at, apart from Trebevic?

11 A. I don't know. Only in the direction of Trebevic.

12 Q. Did you observe tracer bullets? Do you know what tracer bullets

13 are?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to clarify, Ms. Mahindaratne, you put

16 two questions to the witness. The answer was no. The first one: Did you

17 observe tracer bullets? And the second one, whether he knows.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I will put it again to him.

19 Q. Witness, do you know what tracer bullets are, tracer rounds?

20 A. No. I've never been in the army. I really don't know.

21 Q. Very well. When these weapons fired towards Trebevic, did you

22 observe return fire from Trebevic, from the Serb positions?

23 A. When the sirens sounded in Sarajevo, when we heard a mobile mortar

24 firing, we would all go to the basement. We'd take shelter. But I saw

25 when fire was opened from an anti-aircraft -- from a mortar. It was a

Page 18831

1 burst of fire directed at the Serbian side. And this mobile mortar would

2 immediately go into another street and continue in this manner. And after

3 about ten minutes, there would be a response and shells would start

4 falling. Yes.

5 Q. So you did see the response, to use your own words, the

6 retaliation from the Serb side. You watched shelling, return fire from

7 the Serb side, from Trebevic in response to this fire.

8 A. I didn't see it. I heard this. I felt it. But I couldn't

9 observe this because I was in the basement, or in my flat.

10 Q. Sir, my question to you was: When these --

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that, Mr. President.

12 Q. Your testimony was that you saw these mobile mortars and anti-tank

13 weapons fire towards Trebevic. My question to you was: Did you see fire

14 returning from Trebevic in response to those --


16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection. The

17 witness has answered and gave very precise information as to the

18 locations, et cetera.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, at the very end of a rather

20 relatively long answer the witness said, "And after about ten minutes,

21 there would be a response and the shells would start falling."

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. He goes on to say that he

23 never saw, because he went into the basement. If I -- it's at --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the answer you had in mind? Yes.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: He said, "I didn't see. I heard this. I felt

Page 18832

1 it. But I couldn't observe this because I was in the basement, or in my

2 flat."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't that what the witness said, that there was

4 return fire but that he didn't see it but that he did hear it or --

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I clarify, Mr. President?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please clarify the issue.


8 Q. Sir, is it your position that you did not see fire from Trebevic

9 in response to the rounds of fire from the mobile mortars but you only

10 heard it from the basement? Is that your position?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)


24 Q. Was it the case that every time you saw these mobile weapons you

25 were by your house so that you could go into your basement?

Page 18833

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. I'm

2 going to ask the witness to leave because I want to say something.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll answer this question though. I

4 wasn't always in -- I wasn't always able to enter my own basement, but I

5 would go into other people's basements, the basement of other people.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The witness answered the

7 question. Of course we have to -- just for time constraints, if we ask

8 the witness to leave this courtroom, first all the curtains have to be

9 pulled down. So if it's not necessary -- I don't know whether you persist

10 to your --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I insist, because the

12 witness answered an initial question very clearly, a question about the

13 places where he saw these weapons. He answered it very clearly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Is sought.

15 Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please respond. Mr. Piletta-Zanin

16 says that in a previous answer the witness was quite precise in respect of

17 what you're asking him now.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, in the interest of time, I will

19 just withdraw that last question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.


22 Q. Sir, wasn't there ever an instance where you saw these mortars and

23 you did not have the opportunity to go into a basement after such weapons

24 had fired?

25 A. Yes. I said I was present when fire was opened and also when I

Page 18834

1 saw them driving by, and on such occasions I didn't go into basements. I

2 only went into the basement when they fired. It wasn't dangerous when

3 they were moving around town. It was only dangerous when they opened

4 fire. In such cases there would always be a response -- there would

5 usually be a response from the Serbian side.

6 Q. My question to you was --

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that, Mr. President.

8 Q. You stated that this was done when, to use your own words at page

9 17154, when there were parliamentarians from different states, from

10 different countries, or journalists from different states visiting Bosnia,

11 this was done. This was your testimony. Were -- are you personally aware

12 of or were you personally privy to such an instance when there was firing

13 from a mobile mortar, when a parliamentarian or a journalist was visiting

14 Sarajevo? Or was the basis of your answer just rumours?

15 A. That's not just my answer. All the citizens of Sarajevo would

16 provide you with the same answer, regardless of their ethnic

17 characteristics.

18 Q. Sir, if I may interrupt you. My question to you was: Were you

19 personally privy to such an instance? Did you see with your own eyes or

20 were you personally involved in such a situation?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did. I did. Not just myself.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think the

24 witness was --

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... The witness

Page 18835

1 told us what other people would respond to that question, and

2 Ms. Mahindaratne was perfectly entitled to interrupt that type of answer.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.


6 Q. What --

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I have no interpretation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have -- first then have to wait until the

10 interpretation has been --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, since it was not translated, repeat

13 your answer to the last question put to you. And perhaps,

14 Ms. Mahindaratne, you will first repeat the question as well.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

16 Q. You said you were personally privy to such an instance. When was

17 that? Can you give the year and the month?

18 A. I can't tell you the month, but it was in 1992, 1993, and 1994 for

19 sure. I, just like all the other citizens, remained at home when

20 parliamentary members arrived because on such occasions, it was expected

21 that there would be firing in the town.

22 Q. Which parliamentary members are you referring to? From which

23 state? Are you referring to a particular incident?

24 A. No. But as -- in general, I want to say that whenever anyone

25 visited Sarajevo, it seemed necessary to create a wartime atmosphere so

Page 18836

1 that the visitors could gain an image of Sarajevo which was the image that

2 was presented to the world.

3 Q. Can you identify a particular situation like that? Can you refer

4 to a specific situation, or can you only refer to it in general terms?

5 A. Yes, of course. There were many such situations. They occurred

6 very frequently. Whenever a foreign delegation came, new journalists,

7 cameramen --

8 Q. Just let me interrupt you. I'm asking you to identify a specific

9 instance. Perhaps referring to the parliamentarians or journalists. Can

10 you identify them? You said there were many situations. Can you refer to

11 one such situation?

12 A. Well, if you're asking me about one such situation, it's difficult

13 for me to single out one particular situation. I'm telling you that this

14 was a frequent event in Sarajevo. The mortars would always be placed in

15 the streets to provoke a Serbian attack when foreign journalists and

16 foreign delegations came to Sarajevo. I can't now tell you which foreign

17 delegation. I'd need to prepare for such an answer, find out when certain

18 people came. But as a rule, the citizens would not leave their homes when

19 the media informed that there were visits because they knew that there

20 would be trouble.

21 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... Moving on to another area.

22 You testified about digging trenches below the transit road of the Jewish

23 cemetery.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you testified that you did not volunteer to dig at the tunnel

Page 18837

1 you claim some others were digging because you did not have boots.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you asked to dig in the tunnel and did you refuse, or is it

4 that you merely did not volunteer?

5 A. As far as digging the tunnel to the Jewish chapel is concerned,

6 volunteers were requested to do this, and in return they would be given

7 one day of leave. I didn't volunteer.

8 Q. So how do you reconcile that testimony with your previous position

9 that digging trenches was forced labour and when you were specifically

10 questioned as to whether you ever refused, you stated that refusal would

11 be suicide? How do you reconcile these two contradictory positions?

12 A. Those two positions are not contradictory. I appeared -- I turned

13 up to dig trenches, but they asked for volunteers from our group. I

14 apologise. I touched something here. But we continued digging. I

15 haven't contradicted myself. I had to dig. I said that I was by my own

16 freedom and my own life. That's not a contradiction. I just did not

17 volunteer to dig the tunnel, but I dug trenches next to the tunnel.

18 Q. You testified that a soldier told you about the tunnel.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... When was this?

21 A. That was towards the end of 1993.

22 Q. Can you identify the soldier, his name or rank?

23 A. No. He was an ordinary soldier, and I don't know what his name

24 was.

25 Q. You testified that schools were being used as military facilities,

Page 18838

1 and you used the word "schools" in the plural.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you testified about seeing one such school. I'm referring to

4 testimony at page 17162, where you said that it was close to the Egyptian

5 SFOR forces, their position or their base.

6 A. Near the Egyptian forces. I said the command of the 10th Mountain

7 Brigade was there, but the army was about 300 metres further up in a

8 primary school. We left that school to go and dig trenches. There were

9 military quarters there. The soldiers could sleep there. And that is the

10 school. That's where the 10th Mountain Brigade was. It was like a small

11 military barracks. And in other schools, Milisa Oberlica [phoen] Street

12 on the other side of Sedrenik, we also left the primary school to go and

13 dig. And I know that the army was there because in the hall of that

14 school there were photographs of soldiers who had been killed. It was --

15 there was a catering school near the brewery, and there were other schools

16 which were also used, and universities too, and they were used by the BH

17 army.

18 Q. When you say the school you referred to, and your words were

19 "that's where the 10th Mountain Brigade was," is that the place where you

20 were held as a hostage?

21 A. No. I was a hostage in the yard, in the yard in front of my

22 building, up until 4.00 in the afternoon. It was in front of my windows.

23 And then the four of us Serbs were transferred to Caco's command through

24 the Bistrik Street, taken to that location near the military barracks,

25 next to the military barracks.

Page 18839

1 Q. Sir, your testimony was that you were held at the command of the

2 10th Mountain Brigade and that's where you observed weapons. Now, here,

3 too, you said the school you're referring to is -- to use your word

4 "that's where the 10th Mountain Brigade was." Can you please explain.

5 What is the characterisation?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, are you referring to page 33, line

7 8?

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Page 32, line 19,

9 Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I have a different --

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Line 22, Mr. President. I beg your pardon.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can assist you --

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Line 22?

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The words were "the soldiers could sleep there

15 and that is the school -- that's where the 10th Mountain Brigade was. It

16 was like a small military barracks."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read page 33, line 7 and 8 and see

18 whether there's really much of contradiction.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I just get a clarification, Mr. President,

20 from the witness?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may seek a clarification. And that will be

22 your last question before the break.


24 Q. Sir, the yard in which you were held hostage, was it the same

25 building at which the 10th Mountain Brigade was, that is, the school

Page 18840

1 you're referring to? Or was it a different building? When you say

2 "yard," could you be a little bit more precise.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 And then you'll have another 15 minutes, not more,

16 Ms. Mahindaratne.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would this be a time where you could

20 address the Chamber?

21 But before giving you an opportunity to do so, I would like to ask

22 the Prosecution and draw the attention of Defence to the following issue:

23 Under Rule 94 bis(B), the Prosecution is expected to file a motion and has

24 got 30 days to do that once an expert report has been filed. Because of

25 the very late filing, 15th of January, the report of the psychiatrist

Page 18841

1 Dr. Kuljic and only today the report of a demographer, it will be very

2 difficult for the Prosecution to -- if the Prosecution would take 30 days,

3 then this would cause major problems. It's -- where the Defence always

4 insisted on receiving timely reports, one could wonder what the

5 consequences of this late filing should be. But I invite the Prosecution

6 to let us know as soon as possible when it thinks it could file a notice

7 and according to Rule 94 bis, and then - that would be the second

8 step - to indicate how much time they would still need to prepare for

9 cross-examination.

10 In this respect, I ask the attention of the Defence for the

11 following, that as I am well aware, Dr. Kuljic is scheduled quite early in

12 your row of expert witnesses, and it was only on the 15th of January that

13 his report was filed. That was over two weeks ago. So the Defence should

14 be prepared to reschedule in order to allow the Prosecution to prepare for

15 cross-examination if they would need more time.

16 Having said this, Mr. Ierace, I invite you to make the submissions

17 you would like to make.

18 MR. IERACE: Thank you for the opportunity, Mr. President.

19 Firstly, in relation to Dr. Kuljic, you may not have yet seen a

20 filing today by the Prosecution in which we indicated that we would

21 require three hours cross-examination for Dr. Kuljic. I have not yet seen

22 the demographic report that you indicated was filed today.

23 JUDGE ORIE: At least, I got it on my desk today.

24 MR. IERACE: We'll respond to that very quickly.


Page 18842

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I could start with today's

2 filing from the Defence, entitled "Defence's submission," with the

3 additional information and request. That document initially refers to the

4 anticipated evidence of -- by Mr. Milan Kunjadic.

5 At paragraph 5, the submission notes that he visited sites of the

6 alleged incidents, which were available to the Defence. And on those

7 sites, he performed observations, recordings, and measurements. In his

8 report, Mr. Kunjadic said that he visited the sites - I took it to mean

9 all of the sites - there is no reference to any recordings or measurements

10 or indeed observations. The Prosecution requests that we be provided with

11 the recordings, measurements, and a summary of the relevant observations.

12 That's the first request.

13 Moving on to the second part of that filing that relates to the

14 prospective testimony of the accused and effectively requests that the

15 Trial Chamber reconsider its earlier decision. It does not appear to

16 refer to any fresh matters. It's my submission that the Defence is

17 disentitled to invite the Trial Chamber to reconsider an earlier decision

18 unless there are some fresh matters.

19 Mr. President --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the part of a filing of today?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: At which it is -- or is it the earlier filing?

23 MR. IERACE: Today.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't seen it yet, so I can't -- I can't either

25 confirm or deny that this filing exists. But you've drawn our attention

Page 18843

1 to it, yes.

2 MR. IERACE: I'm grateful to the Defence for having made this

3 filing in the English language. It enables us to respond more quickly.

4 So, Mr. President, the -- to save time, might I simply orally

5 indicate the position of the Prosecution, which is that there's no fresh

6 material, and the invitation should not be entertained.

7 More importantly, the Defence still has not filed its exhibit list

8 or given an indication of the time that the accused would take in chief

9 should he be called, in spite of the specific requirement made by you of

10 the Defence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Mr. Ierace, and I'm also

12 addressing the Defence. Am I correct in my understanding that there was

13 an initial time indication in your witness list that has been filed and on

14 which the accused appeared provisionally as a witness? Am I correct it's

15 something like -- was 12 hours? Or was that -- am I mistaking now?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this very moment I

17 am unable to check if that is the time. But if your memory serves you

18 well, if you say it's 12 hours, then it is. I will check, in any case.

19 At this very moment, I cannot say for certain.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to check whether I have the

22 submission here with me.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I am afraid that my recollection is not very reliable

24 in this respect, so it certainly should be checked.

25 Well, it goes -- let me not respond to this right away. Let's

Page 18844












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 18844 to 18854.













Page 18855

1 first look at the submission.

2 On the other hand, I think that the Chamber has made it quite

3 clear that decisions, as they are, stand and that whatever request for

4 reconsideration is made, that the parties should meet whatever they're

5 required to meet according to those decisions. But I'll not further

6 respond on this at this very moment.

7 The second issue is the facts on which Dr. Kunjadic relies. If

8 the sources -- the sources of fact are not transparent, then one of the

9 requirements the Chamber has expressed might not be met, and that could

10 have as a consequence that less or no weight is attached to what the

11 expert tells us. So, therefore, the greater the transparency, the better

12 the Chamber is able to assess the probative value of an expert report.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to the requirement that a

14 list of exhibits be filed for the accused. On the 23rd of January, you

15 made it clear that the seven-day rule applies. That period has expired.

16 They were reminded -- the Defence was reminded on Friday night. We are

17 now perhaps two days off the calling of the accused.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we are. But if I look at the schedule,

19 it seem that no room has been reserved for that. And if the Defence has

20 no intention to call the accused before the appearance of

21 Professor Cavoski as an expert witness, I think it would be better to say

22 that right away. And if it still intends to do so, then it's not fully

23 comprehensible how such a schedule could be submitted to the Chamber,

24 especially since the seven-day rule would almost impossibly be obeyed by

25 the Defence if they were to call the accused by the end of this week. And

Page 18856

1 perhaps it's not always possible, but it would be impossible.

2 So I don't know whether the Defence want to express themselves on

3 that. But if not, I take it that the accused will not testify and we'll

4 then see what happens.

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in part from making gestures that are not very

6 much comprehensible, and apart from offering a smile to the Chamber, which

7 certainly does not assist in the work the Chamber has to perform, could

8 you express yourself on behalf of the Defence. I'll ask lead counsel,

9 Ms. Pilipovic -- I'll ask lead counsel, Ms. Pilipovic, whether she could

10 express herself on behalf of the Defence or if she's unable to do so.

11 Could you solve one of the puzzles you are putting on the table of

12 the Chamber at this very moment?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in accordance with

14 the decision of your Chamber that if the general decides to testify, that

15 he can only testify after the fact witnesses and not expert witnesses. In

16 accordance with this, we have compiled a schedule for this week.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... That was he

18 should testify before the expert witnesses, which is not exactly the same.

19 And I explained it several times, that it would not under all

20 circumstances, meet after the last witness of fact, because we know that

21 some witnesses of fact might appear later because of, well, I would say

22 rather technical reasons where the Chamber has tried to assist the Defence

23 as good as it could in order to make sure that these

24 witnesses -- nevertheless, the late access to these witnesses or the late

25 request for assistance to the Chamber that they would nevertheless appear

Page 18857

1 for the Defence, since the Chamber considers it of great importance that

2 witnesses for the Defence could appear. But I see that -- and I'm just

3 asking you directly. It's on Tuesday that the last witness of fact on the

4 list is indicated, whereas on Wednesday the first expert witness is

5 scheduled. May we take it, then, that it's not your intention to call

6 General Galic between Tuesday and Wednesday?

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In accordance

9 with your decision. In our submission that you received this morning, the

10 Defence presented its' decision in relation to the testimony of

11 General Galic and your decision.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. We'll then look at that. And that's, at

13 least, then clear.

14 Has the Prosecution received that submission, I take it?

15 Yes. So then we'll also read it.

16 Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, to be perfectly clear on this, is the

18 Defence saying that they will not be calling the accused this week for

19 whatever reason?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you respond to that question.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have stated in

22 relation to the decision of the Chamber and bearing in mind that the

23 Chamber refused the certificate for appeal in such a decision. In

24 accordance with this decision, the Defence has compiled a schedule of the

25 witnesses for this week.

Page 18858

1 JUDGE ORIE: The certificate for appeal is not granted, as the

2 Defence was aware of, I take it. It has been orally been announced. I

3 saw the last draft, I think this morning, so it will be signed soon.

4 Yes. I will first read what you have written down. But could you

5 please then -- knowing that the certificate has not been granted, is the

6 answer to the Prosecution that you do not call General Galic this week?

7 Because that's what they asked.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, in the course of this week.

9 We have presented our position in the submission delivered this morning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you are free to call the accused at a

11 later stage in accordance with the position you've taken earlier, or is

12 that -- yes.

13 Okay. That's clear that --

14 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we leave that topic,

16 having regard to your last observation: "I take it that you are free to

17 call the accused at a later stage in accordance with the position you've

18 taken earlier." My --

19 JUDGE ORIE: No. That you are free -- that you feel free, I think

20 I said, or at least that's what I intended to say. That the Defence

21 reserves its position to call General Galic at a time -- at a time

22 different from the time the Chamber indicated in its decision when he

23 would have to be called. That's what I -- let me -- that's at least how I

24 understood you, Ms. Pilipovic. So the Defence differs from what the

25 Chamber has decided and expresses its freedom to call General Galic at a

Page 18859

1 time different from what the Chamber has decided. That's how I understand

2 your position.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. Precisely

5 in accordance with what I have already stated, the Defence in its

6 submission has requested for the Trial Chamber to reconsider its decision

7 and allow the general, Stanislav Galic, is able to testify at any point

8 during the Defence case in accordance with the Rules of Procedure and

9 Evidence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is at least in accordance with your

11 interpretation of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

12 MR. IERACE: But Mr. President, if I could just clarify my

13 understanding of the -- of the order of the Trial Chamber.


15 MR. IERACE: As I understand it, it is that if the Defence elects

16 to not call the accused at the end of its list of witnesses of fact and

17 before it calls its first expert witness, it forfeits the opportunity to

18 call him at a later stage.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what forfeiture will be the consequence of it

20 is the Chamber ordered the Defence, if they wanted to call General Galic

21 as a witness, to do it prior to examining their first expert witness.

22 Yes.

23 MR. IERACE: And they could re-call him, the accused --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if necessary. Yes.

25 MR. IERACE: At a later point.

Page 18860


2 MR. IERACE: So that if they don't call the accused this week,

3 that is, at the end of witnesses of fact, they cannot call the accused.

4 I'd be grateful for that clarification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I have not seen any document, although it was

6 announced that it's on my desk downstairs, to reconsider that -- that

7 decision, to -- that the Chamber reconsiders that decision. So I think it

8 would be unwise to -- to say anything about it before I've read that

9 submission.

10 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I did not seek to call upon the

11 Trial Chamber to rule -- to give its decision in respect of the yet unseen

12 filing today, but rather, simply to clarify --

13 JUDGE ORIE: You want a further clarification from the decision.

14 MR. IERACE: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the decision is taken. The decision is quite

16 clear.

17 MR. IERACE: All right. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So let's leave that. As you may know Court sometimes

19 deliver a decision and do not comment on their own decisions any more even

20 if requested to do so.

21 MR. IERACE: Understood, Mr. President.

22 The next issue concerning the expert witness Mr. Radinovic. At

23 the commencement of today's session, the Prosecution was handed a letter

24 with some attachments. The letter is from the Defence and states in

25 effect that, pursuant to the Trial Chamber's order, it now provides to the

Page 18861

1 Prosecution notes made by Professor Radinovic about conversation he had

2 with some persons in preparation of his report.

3 Mr. President, thereafter -- as I've said, there are a number of

4 annexes -- one is a typed document, if I could hold it up, which -- in

5 which some paragraphs are illegible because of a black blob. I don't know

6 whether the Defence has a better copy. Thereafter are a number of

7 separate annexes all in note form in B/C/S, as is the annex referred to

8 earlier that's also in B/C/S. With the assistance of a language assistant

9 knowledgeable in B/C/S, we have looked at these documents in the

10 preliminary fashion. We note that some pages appear to be missing, some

11 other matters of the like. I won't take up time now with that. We will

12 forward a letter to the Defence requesting that they check that we have

13 all intended pages. But we do note this: That the notes purport to be

14 made as a result of conversations with certain persons. Some of those

15 persons are identified, seemingly by their surname, others by a colloquial

16 name. We're not told what the proper name is. Even so, it appears that

17 two of the persons that the experts spoke to and on which he relies for

18 his report include witnesses who the Defence proposed to call, no longer

19 does, senior subordinates of the accused. One appears to be an interview

20 with a witness who was called last week. And this is the first we have

21 seen those notes. And it appears that, at least one more is a witness who

22 has given evidence, DP36. There may be others.

23 Mr. President, in my respectful submission, this is most improper,

24 that the Prosecution be given these notes after the relevant witnesses

25 have given their evidence so that the Prosecution does not have an

Page 18862

1 opportunity to cross-examine those witnesses as to the reliability of the

2 information they gave the expert.

3 Secondly, it is equally improper for the expert to base his

4 opinion in part on conversations he has had with witnesses who have not

5 been offered for cross-examination. I refer in particular to the

6 witnesses who were on the Defence witness list and have been dropped.

7 That being the case, the Prosecution would be grateful if the

8 Trial Chamber would reconsider its position in relation to the

9 admissibility of that report, since it has been formally admitted as a

10 result of an earlier decision of the Trial Chamber.

11 Mr. President, today's filing, you will see in due course, also

12 refers to Professor Radinovic's report. And this is said at paragraph 17,

13 by way of reason as to why the time made available to the Trial Chamber

14 for the Defence to examine him in chief should be significantly extended,

15 paragraph 17: "Having in mind that if Defence planned possibly to admit

16 the documents of ABiH combat units through this expert witness, which

17 documents are not included in --"

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down when reading,

19 please.

20 MR. IERACE: I will slow down.

21 "To admit the documents of ABiH combat units through this expert

22 witness, which documents are not included in expert's statement, although

23 expert is familiar with these documents."

24 It, therefore, appears that the Defence intends to tender, so it

25 would seem, perhaps through this witness, material which is not referred

Page 18863

1 to in his report. The understanding that the Prosecution was given by the

2 Trial Chamber when preparing its own expert reports was that the reports

3 had to be comprehensive and more or less speak independently as to how the

4 opinions were arrived at, including the basis for those opinions. It

5 should all be apparent within the report, or at least in material which

6 has been disclosed to the Defence and identified in the report.

7 Mr. President, this concerns the Prosecution, that it seems that

8 at least in the case of this expert, who is to be called on one issue and

9 then once he's in the witness box with no prior notice to the Prosecution,

10 he's to be used for very different issue, in other words, to get in

11 documents. And the Prosecution requests formally that we receive a

12 further report from the witness if this plan is to be embarked upon by the

13 Defence which covers this fresh material.

14 Mr. President, finally, in relation to the report of Dr. Vilicic.

15 In that report at page 24, the author, that is, the expert, refers to a

16 figure, that is, a diagram or map in the report, which he describes as

17 figure 31A. That appears in the report and is described as being drawn

18 from "the official headquarters staff topographic map of the Serb forces."

19 Mr. President, if that map exists and it's in the possession of

20 the Defence, it's my submission that that should have been disclosed, if

21 it hasn't been disclosed, to the Prosecution because it's clearly caught

22 by the terms of reciprocal disclosure. So I'd be grateful if the Defence

23 could identify more particularly that map, if it says that it's disclosed

24 to the Prosecution. And if not, it should be immediately disclosed to the

25 Prosecution on two quite separate bases. Firstly, in terms of reciprocal

Page 18864

1 disclosure; but secondly, as a document which Professor Vilicic has relied

2 on for a part of his report. The map which appears in the report appears

3 to be comprised for the purposes of the report drawing on the information

4 in the other map.

5 Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the Defence first to respond on the last

7 part, whether the map the expert relies upon could be provided to the

8 Prosecution.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind the

10 submission of my learned colleague, I have to say that I am a little

11 surprised why this is done in such a way, when there was not a single

12 moment when the Prosecution addressed themselves to the Defence. I have

13 to examine in detail everything that my learned colleague is requesting,

14 and I can give a response to this submission early tomorrow morning in

15 respect of everything that my learned colleague has expressed as being a

16 problem.

17 I have to say that all the notes that the Defence disclosed to the

18 Defence [as interpreted] in accordance with a decision of the Trial

19 Chamber - and I think that the Defence in its submission -- in its motion,

20 that it's addressed to the Trial Chamber, also explains this position. I

21 have also disclosed the notes in accordance with your decision, but at

22 this moment I have no idea what the problem is when the notes are

23 concerned.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I'm going to have to

Page 18865

1 carefully examine all the arguments submitted by my learned colleague.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... We'll hear

3 from you, Ms. Pilipovic. May I give you as some guidance that the Chamber

4 has not allowed the Prosecution to use expert reports in order to

5 introduce new witness statements where the Defence has had no opportunity

6 to cross-examine these witnesses. So as far as the sources are concerned,

7 it is a very sensitive issue to what extent new facts can be introduced,

8 and especially if they come from sources that would be sources that could

9 have been called or that have given witness statements but where there was

10 no possibility to cross-examine the witnesses giving these statements.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I still don't know

12 what new facts are these, considering that Mr. Radovan Radinovic in his

13 expert report quoted the sources that he relied upon. So I really don't

14 know what new material, what new facts these are.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I. But I hear that the Prosecution is

16 complaining about the introduction of new documents without witnesses to

17 explain what these documents are, where they come from, what their content

18 is. But I would like just to remind you that there are limits to what

19 extent experts can introduce facts that cannot be verified, whether these

20 are witness statements or whether these are documents.

21 But let's not try to debate at full all the issues before we have

22 had a better opportunity to look at whatever has been submitted and filed

23 today. But I just gave you this guidance in order to be better able to

24 prepare for your submissions tomorrow.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I thank

Page 18866

1 you. But in any case, I expect the submission of my learned colleagues,

2 as Mr. Ierace has indicated.


4 Then is the Prosecution ready to continue its cross-examination of

5 Witness DP2?

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the curtains be --

8 Oh, yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you mind if the curtains are

9 already pulled down, or would it take more time? And the public gallery

10 is not that full, as I --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No importance, whatsoever.

12 Perhaps it will be a good idea to ask about the tape or to find

13 out about the tape.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll ask the registrar to inform us.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And secondly, Mr. President --

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Since another registrar was serving, we need more

18 time to retrieve that tape. So, therefore, no final decision can be taken

19 on the tape at this very moment.

20 Your next matter was, Mr. Piletta-Zanin ...?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

22 Secondly, contrary to what we have been told, Mr. President -- and

23 so far we have not received a written decision in relation to the

24 disqualification procedure.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It's not my decision. I know that the President of

Page 18867

1 this Chamber has taken a decision and was about to issue it in writing as

2 well. I don't know whether it has been done today what I expected as a

3 matter of fact. But -- but I as a Presiding Judge of this Chamber am

4 informed about what the decision was and acted accordingly, and I'll find

5 out or ask one of my fellow Judges to find out whether the decision has

6 been filed. I'm certain that the decision will be put in your mailbox as

7 soon as it has been filed.

8 Any other issue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

9 Then could the curtains be pulled down.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.


14 Q. Witness, I am referring to the school you spoke of. And if I may

15 draw your attention to your testimony, page 17162. You said: "I know

16 that primary schools, secondary schools, kindergartens and facilities were

17 used as military facilities. About Caco's headquarters 200 metres from

18 there, and his headquarters was just five metres above the former military

19 command of General Kukanjac. And during the war that was the Egyptian

20 SFOR forces. So his command was some 10 metres above -- I don't know if

21 it was a school. I don't know what the name was. But it was a primary

22 school and there were kitchens there and also soldiers rooms.

23 Now, would you please indicate on the map with a blue marker where

24 this school was. And please use a blue marker.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Could the map be adjusted so that it could be

Page 18868

1 seen on the ELMO.

2 A. Caco's main staff has been marked with the number "4" and this

3 marks the positions where the school should have been, where Caco's troops

4 were billeted.

5 Q. And can you indicate -- your testimony was that -- I will use your

6 own words "and behind that school, I went to dig the trenches." Where

7 behind that school did you dig the trenches? Could you indicate with the

8 blue pen where you dug trenches behind the school.

9 A. I never said that I dug trenches behind the school. I dug

10 trenches in Poljine, Trebevic, and that was at the beginning. I think

11 that I marked the places then, but it's not possible to dig trenches

12 behind the school because that is an urban area. I can't have said that.

13 Q. Sir, I can assure you you said that you dug trenches. In fact,

14 let me quote your testimony back to you. You said, "And behind that

15 school, I went to dig the trenches. So every morning we would have

16 breakfast there and I know that because I was there every morning." That

17 was your testimony.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 It's not that I want to interrupt anything, but I want to know -- I don't

21 know whether the witness mentioned a number below the first circle,

22 Bistrik. I think that should be clarified for the sake of the transcript.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Indicated the

24 school is marked by the witness with a "9." Ms. Mahindaratne, if you

25 would have told this, then we would have prevented unnecessary

Page 18869

1 interruption that -- I have to say that could have been shorter as well.

2 Please proceed.


4 Q. Sir, not only on the previous day did you mention that you dug

5 trenches behind the school. Even today you mentioned that. And I refer

6 to page 32, line 19. I will quote your testimony. "We left that school

7 to go and dig trenches." That was your testimony.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You go on to say, "We also left the primary school to go and dig."

10 So your testimony was that you dug trenches behind the school. Could you

11 please -- is it your position that you did not dig trenches behind the

12 school? Are you withdrawing that --

13 A. Well, even when you read out my testimony, that -- it doesn't mean

14 that I was digging trenches behind the school. I couldn't have done so

15 because it was an urban area. There were buildings there. I dug trenches

16 in Poljine, near the Serbian positions, and that's high up.

17 Q. Witness, will you please examine the map. You have indicated four

18 positions where you dug trenches at. In what manner did you dig these

19 trenches? And let me qualify that question. Was it done sporadically as

20 in did you dig trenches at one place and then move to another place and

21 then return to that earlier place, or did you finish digging trenches at

22 one location and then move on to the next location? Is that how it was

23 done?

24 A. No, never at the same location. Usually the locations were

25 different. It depended on the group whose turn it was. Sometimes people

Page 18870

1 would be taken to one location, sometimes to another.

2 Q. During which period did you dig trenches below the transit road of

3 the Jewish cemetery?

4 A. Well, as I said, it depended on the location that I was taken to,

5 and this depended on the need. Sometimes I was at Jezersko [phoen],

6 sometimes on Borije. There were four locations. Sometimes I'd go to the

7 same location, you know, from mid-1992 up until 1994 I dug at all these

8 locations.

9 Q. Very well. At what time did you start digging? I'm asking on a

10 day that you'd be required to dig trenches, generally what time did you

11 start digging?

12 A. We would meet at about half past 7.00. Then it took us an hour to

13 get to the location. We'd stay there for about five hours. In the winter

14 we would be there for less than five hours and sometimes for over five

15 hours in the summer.

16 Q. So generally at what time did you return after digging trenches?

17 A. Well, about half past 3.00 in winter and about 5.00 in summer.

18 We'd dig until about 5.00 in the afternoon.

19 Q. You testified that you saw weapons at the trenches. And I'm

20 referring to testimony at page 17147. And you also mentioned that you saw

21 two machine-guns -- I beg your pardon. I withdraw that. You saw

22 machine-guns at two locations. What were these locations?

23 A. I saw this at the Borije and at the Jewish cemetery.

24 Q. Moving on to another area, witness, how many times have you

25 observed Sarajevo being shelled from Serb territory? Could you give an

Page 18871

1 approximate number.

2 A. Well, this is what I can say. Sarajevo was shelled as often as

3 the Muslim forces wanted Sarajevo to be shelled. I've explained this.

4 Q. Witness, may I interrupt. I just asked you for the number, not

5 the circumstances under which Sarajevo was shelled. I said about how many

6 times you personally have observed, you personally have seen Sarajevo

7 being shelled from Serb territory?

8 A. First of all, I didn't see it on any occasion. I said that I was

9 in the shelter. But as I said, it was shelled as often as the Muslim

10 forces carried out attacks from Sarajevo and as often as the Serbian side

11 was provoked to fire after the mobile mortars.

12 Q. So let me -- let me get this clear. Your testimony is that you

13 personally did not see the shelling from Serb territory. My question to

14 you is about what you saw. I'm not asking about the circumstances. And

15 if I am -- if I may clarify. What you're saying is you personally did not

16 see Sarajevo being shelled from Serb territory. Is that correct? Please

17 answer yes or no.

18 A. I saw the consequences of the shelling, but I didn't see the

19 shelling itself.

20 Q. Have you seen Sarajevo being shelled from Trebevic? And I'm

21 asking about have you seen, personally.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think the

24 witness has already answered this type of question on two occasions.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. I will ask any next

Page 18872

1 question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, please go ahead.


4 Q. -- Given that you did not see Sarajevo being shelled from Serb

5 territory, how do you explain your statement, and I'm referring to

6 transcript page 17176 -- you were questioned: "Witness, I'm going to

7 interrupt you. What do you know about the targets that were shelled by

8 the Serbian forces in Sarajevo? My question is as a general rule and what

9 nature of these targets, if you know anything about this." And your

10 answer is, "I think that there was" -- "they were, I think is what you

11 meant to say," they were in response to fire from Sarajevo and targeted

12 the targets from which they were active."

13 You also testified further - and I'm referring to transcript page

14 number 17184 - you say, "But in my prior testimony, I kept repeating that

15 they shot from Trebevic mostly when the Serbs were provoked, and that is

16 when they shelled the town."

17 Now, Witness, if you did not see personally Sarajevo being shelled

18 from the Serb territory, how do you know that the shelling was in fact in

19 response to firing from Sarajevo?

20 A. I know that because each attack from Sarajevo was made known to us

21 because the sirens were sounded. And whenever the mobile mortars

22 appeared, return fire was always opened as a result. And as I said, it

23 was the Serb forces responding.

24 Q. Moving on to another area. You testified with regard to damage

25 caused to structures within the city of Sarajevo in this manner - and I am

Page 18873

1 referring to your testimony here, transcript page number 17048 - "in the

2 old part of the town, including the centre, not a single mosque or minaret

3 were destroyed."

4 Then in reference to the old part of town and Bistrik, you said,

5 "Not a single building was destroyed. Only damage was to the roofs and

6 the windows."

7 That was your testimony.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Witness, where is the central post office building located?

10 A. It's across the road from the faculty of law, on the same side as

11 the faculty of law in the centre of town.

12 Q. Wasn't the central post office building completely destroyed?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.


15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

16 JUDGE ORIE: What's your objection, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's twofold. Time has

18 expired.

19 And secondly, this is outside the time frame of the indictment.

20 And also, I think that the decision of your Trial Chamber

21 specifies this fact.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may answer that question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The main post office --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let us first decide on the --

Page 18874

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can I respond, Mr. President?


3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: This is an issue which goes to the credibility

4 of the witness, because the witness has in general terms testified that

5 the only damage he's witnessed in the city was damage to the roofs and the

6 windows.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You don't have to further explain. Apart from

8 that, that's my recollection that a lot of questions were put, especially

9 also in respect of the time frame outside and chief, and

10 examination-in-chief and the time frame outside the time frame of

11 the -- of the indictment.

12 You may put this question to the witness. The witness can answer

13 the question. But your time is then over, Ms. Mahindaratne.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I be permitted just one more question?

15 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I be permitted just one more question after

17 the witness answers that question, sir?

18 JUDGE ORIE: If it's just one question, please then put the

19 question to the witness and we'll then decide if the witness is allowed to

20 answer your next question.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well.

22 Q. Will you please answer my question first. I'm sorry, I didn't ask

23 you.

24 Wasn't the central main post office building which is located in

25 the centre of the town destroyed?

Page 18875

1 A. Not a single citizen from Sarajevo will tell you that the post

2 office has been damaged in any way. [Indiscernible] that a single wall

3 was missing. It was set on fire, but it doesn't destroyed like the town

4 hall. That simply is not the case.

5 Q. You yourself admit that this building was set on fire, yet your

6 testimony was that the only damage you saw in the city was the roofs and

7 the windows. I put it to you, witness, that your testimony with regard to

8 damage caused to the structures within the city is incorrect.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You may answer that question.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the old part of town and

11 the centre -- that it didn't look like damage at the line of demarcation.

12 I say that not a single building was destroyed, apart from the fact that a

13 wall had perhaps been penetrated by a shell. But I stand by my claim that

14 not a single building was destroyed.


16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes the cross-examination.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

18 Is there any need to re-examine the witness? Please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

21 Q. [Interpretation] The map is still on the ELMO apparently.

22 Witness, I would like you to focus on the map. It's just a matter

23 I would like to clarify.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we focus -- could we

25 zoom into the centre of the map, the zone which is between points 7 and 8.

Page 18876

1 Q. Witness --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We still don't have the same

3 versions of the map, Mr. President. I would have liked to show the

4 witness the same map, the map which is identical to the one that I have in

5 front of me. But it's slightly different, as far as the chronology is

6 concerned.

7 May I do so? May I show the witness a slightly different version

8 of the map.

9 JUDGE ORIE: A different version of the map?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It's just a prior or

11 subsequent version, but -- an earlier or later version, but it's the same

12 type of map.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 With the assistance of the usher. Thank you.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Is there a number for that map,

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Madam Registrar. We are

19 not going to give it a number. I would just like the witness to focus on

20 the map, to find his bearings.

21 Q. Witness, do you recognise the area that you have in front of you,

22 in the centre of the screen? Witness, I'm referring to the exit of the

23 tunnel. Can you see any buildings there? And there are three letters

24 there, "FAK" to the left of the letter "H" which indicates a hospital.

25 Can you see that?

Page 18877

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I didn't hear your answer.

3 A. Yes, I can see it.

4 Q. Thank you. What do these three letters mean "FAK"?

5 A. If you're referring to this location that I am pointing at --

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. That is the faculty of architecture.

8 Q. Thank you. Are these buildings -- are these the buildings where

9 you said that you saw the tanks?

10 A. Yes, exactly.

11 Q. Thank you. Please take the map which is below -- beneath this

12 one, with the assistance of the usher. Yes. Gently. Thank you.

13 Witness, could you point to these faculty buildings, please.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. The witness pointed to the buildings slightly to the

16 north of the exit of the tunnel between points 7 and 8 in a somewhat

17 triangular zone. Thank you.

18 Witness, I would now like you to go back to what you mentioned a

19 minute ago. At page 25 -- 25, 25 you mentioned sirens. I would like you

20 to tell us why these sirens were sounded. That's the first question.

21 And then, was it a mechanism that was systematically employed or

22 was it an exception, et cetera, et cetera?

23 A. The inhabitants of Bistrik were used to this. The sirens would

24 always indicate when an attack was going to be carried, an attack that had

25 already been expected for months. And each time there was an attack,

Page 18878

1 these sirens would be sounded. Whether it was organised or not, well,

2 people in town always spoke about attacks, when there were attacks that

3 were launched. And when they did talk about this, about these attacks,

4 then the sirens would be sounded. And there would always be an attack

5 when the sirens were sounded. And this was really quite frequent.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, to make sure that everything is as clear as

7 possible, did people fire from the platform, or was it necessary to take

8 the weapon off in order to fire from the ground or from some other level?

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.


11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The issue of manner of firing from this

12 so-called mobile mortars was not dealt with in cross-examination.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll respond to

15 that question gladly, to the question put -- the question that my learned

16 colleague asked had to do with the three sides of the vehicle, not four

17 sides. But I just wanted to know whether fire was opened from -- in a

18 certain way or not, whether the object was -- whether the vehicle was

19 covered or not. And I think that this question does have a certain

20 technical aspect.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You may ask one or two questions in this respect.

22 But please keep in mind, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that the cross-examination was

23 about the platform and not on whether one was shooting from the ground or

24 from the vehicle. Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 18879

1 Q. Witness, as far as you know, the platform that we have spoken

2 about, did this platform make it possible for fire to be opened from it?

3 A. Well, the purpose of the platform was such: Fire was opened from

4 the platform.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, Witness, I'd like us to go

6 back to another thing that you mentioned briefly. You said that local

7 population tried to get rid of those mobile weapons and didn't want them

8 in their streets. Could you please elaborate on this.

9 A. Your Honours, this was really something. It was more than once

10 that I was present when the population was getting out in the street very

11 vocally telling them to go away. And they would say to these people, "Why

12 are you provoking them? Why are you doing this when they are peaceful?"

13 And on one occasion, one of the people of the -- from the platform

14 responded, "We are doing this to get their response."

15 Q. Could you please elaborate on this last point. You said that you

16 heard somebody who said this. Was this a soldier? Was this somebody from

17 the crew?

18 A. No. These were the citizens of that part of the town. They would

19 get out of their houses. These were women, people who were retired, old

20 people who went out in the street and wanted the mobile mortar to leave

21 their street, their part of town.

22 Q. Very well. I'm going to repeat my question. The person who said

23 "we wanted a response," this person, was this a citizen or was this a

24 soldier, somebody who was a member of the mortar crew?

25 A. A soldier on the platform.

Page 18880

1 Q. Thank you very much. Was he in uniform; yes or no?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this issue has been raised in

5 chief, not this cross. So I allowed you to ask a few questions on it

6 and --

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Now we're going to change the subject. Witness, you spoke to us

11 about the shelling that occurred when delegations from various parliaments

12 or journalists arrived in the town. Do you recall what you told us?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Did you have any information at the time about a

15 certain delegation coming or a television crew coming, et cetera? And if

16 you did, how was that?

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that Ms. Mahindaratne is

19 not quite happy at this very moment because she asked for specific

20 incidents where that would happen, and the witness has testified that he

21 could not specify. So therefore, if you can now --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, but my question

25 was not to find out if this witness knew about a specific visit but

Page 18881

1 whether he was able to find out through the media information about the

2 fact that a commission or delegation was going to come. My question is

3 completely different. I apologise. Again, I was misunderstood.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Mr. DP2, more about the -- what

5 you knew and what your recollection is now on such incidents that firing

6 took place at the moment where delegations put -- or journalists or

7 reporters were expected to arrive?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How I found out about this

9 information: When there was electricity, it would be through the

10 television. When there was no electricity, then it would be on the radio.

11 And now the question where would I get the electricity: I had a battery

12 of my car, and I would manage to have this -- to use this to get

13 information. And --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat this answer, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your answer.

16 You said, "And I would manage to have this -- to use this to get

17 information." You were then talking about the battery of your car. Could

18 you please repeat the last part of your --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The battery, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you would use that, and what did you then

21 say?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that, I said that the

23 information about visits to Sarajevo were acquired through our mutual

24 communications, people communicating with each other, from people talking

25 to each other. Acquaintances, friends, and so on, neighbours.

Page 18882

1 JUDGE ORIE: But it's still not quite clear to me. Did you learn

2 about those visits of reporters or delegations from the television, or are

3 you telling us that when you had no electricity -- or no car battery, that

4 you would then learn that from what people would tell you on the street?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely, because there were

6 apartments -- friends of mine, acquaintances, who regularly received

7 information. They were able to listen to the TV and the radio. These

8 were our neighbours who received the electricity from generators.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would they tell you prior to the visits

10 that they would take place, or would they tell you -- or did you see it on

11 television once they had taken place?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was always that the delegation

13 would be announced either on TV or the radio. Each visit was announced.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Witness, in relation to what you have told us, could you please

17 answer the following question: What was the frequency of acts of

18 provocation that you spoke of earlier in relation to the arrivals of those

19 delegations, either parliamentary delegations, reporters, or any other

20 delegations?

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, this aspect was not dealt in

24 cross-examination, the frequency --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's so close to what you asked the witness

Page 18883

1 that I would deny the objection.

2 You may answer the question, Mr. DP2.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's a difficult question,

4 what was the frequency. But if I am allowed to say, I would have to say

5 that there was something happening all the time. Basically every

6 fortnight, every month. That would be my estimate.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, my question was in relation to the frequency of incidents

9 related to the arrivals of those delegations. That is, was there

10 something that was systematic, something absolute, that every visit could

11 entail incidents, or was this something rare and so on what can you tell

12 us about that?

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. Inviting the witness

14 to speculate. Systematic --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I allowed myself to say this

18 in order to make the witness understand the question. I took two

19 extremes, the rare occurrence and the frequent occurrence in the other

20 case.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Your question was whether it was something rare and

22 what can you tell us about that. I mean, the -- that's at least what I

23 read in my transcript.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. That was

25 not my question. My question was about the frequency of incidents in

Page 18884

1 relation to these visits by delegations. Was this something systematic or

2 contrary to that, something that was rare? So I gave two hypotheses.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first try to understand what you mean by

4 "this," whether this was something systematic. Did you want to know from

5 the witness whether such a provocative action would be a systematic

6 response to the -- you say "this."

7 So what Mr. Piletta-Zanin asks you, Mr. DP2 - please tell

8 us - whether in your experience such provocative fire would regularly

9 occur when such visits would take place or whether this would only

10 incidentally happen at these occasions.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the town the way we felt

12 shelling, one couldn't call it an incident. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted) But if we are speaking about other locations around the town,then

15 that would be an occurrence, because there was a very frequent shooting

16 but it was in different locations.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I don't know whether you understood the

18 question well. The question was whether -- let me put it in a simple way,

19 whether you would expect provocative fire to take place whenever

20 journalists or delegations of parliamentarians would visit Sarajevo or

21 that only in a few -- at a few of such occasions - that means of such

22 visits - you would experience such provocative fire.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that we expected whether it

24 would happen, but it really always happened whenever there were

25 parliamentarians or any other delegations, journalists, reporters,

Page 18885

1 writers. There would always be this provocation. Really.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That's the answer. Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. I'm going to change the subject, and I'd like to have a map back

5 on the ELMO, please.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm told that we're supposed

7 to have a break soon, Mr. President. I don't know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break soon. But how much time would you

9 still need, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Five or six minutes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to finish in five or six minutes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Q. Witness, you spoke to us earlier in relation to one of the

14 locations where the army was located. You spoke to us about a school near

15 the brewery. And it appears in the English transcript as being the

16 catering school.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.


19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The witness did not speak about a school near

20 the brewery.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not sure, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Neither am I. So if there's any doubt, would you

23 please -- but I'll try to find it.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I don't think it's proper for Defence counsel

25 to converse in loud tones in the presence of the witness.

Page 18886


2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, ma'am.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Did you intend to say, Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- because

5 it has been translated in a way -- was that the meaning of your words?

6 Would you please look at the transcript.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which page, Mr. President?

8 JUDGE ORIE: "A vos ordres", it has been translated as "yes,

9 ma'am." Is that what you intended to express?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Almost, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then please show proper respect for a --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Made by

14 Ms. Mahindaratne and not address her in these kind of words.

15 Please proceed, and indicate to us where the school is to be

16 found.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It

18 seems -- I don't know whether the witness can perhaps take his --

19 JUDGE ORIE: No. The only issue at stake is --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Headphones off --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the words that have been used --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Precisely, in order to find

23 out about this.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would rather find it in the transcript,

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 18887

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can see on

2 page 33, line 15 and 16 something that corresponds to what I believe that

3 I said before I was interrupted -- before I was interrupted. Can you see

4 that?

5 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't found it yet. One moment.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me?

7 JUDGE ORIE: I have not found it yet.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you want me to read it? I

9 can read the following, with your leave.

10 [In English] "A catering school near the brewery, and there were

11 other schools which were also used."

12 [Interpretation] My line -- but I don't know what the transcript

13 is -- my line is line 15 and line 16 of page 33, Mr. President.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes. I see that, Mr. President. It says

15 "catering school near the brewery." I stand corrected.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you should have refrained from objecting.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like that

19 in the future if there is an objection, that we can all be certain of

20 that. Thank you.

21 Q. Now, I'd like you, Witness, to point on the map, to use the

22 pointer. And if you can show us exactly on the map where this famous

23 catering school was, as it was stated in the transcript, a catering school

24 near the brewery. Could you please point to it with the pointer, Witness,

25 please.

Page 18888

1 A. Excuse me. Why this school? Why this catering school? I meant

2 the other school. You mean the school in Bistrik or ...?

3 Q. Yes, Witness. The school that you mentioned in which there were

4 soldiers that were stationed, the school near the old brewery, sometimes

5 known as the old brewery. If you can indicate this, let us know, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the map please be moved such that we can see

7 where the witness points at.

8 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Is that the location that you're

11 indicating? Could you please take a black pen and put a black cross. And

12 if you can place a cross and a number -- just a moment. Just a moment.

13 The number that is supposed to follow the black numbers that you have used

14 on the map.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We've used only numbers, whether black or blue. So I

16 would say that the last number has been "9" as far as I -- my recollection

17 goes. That would be --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you. Witness, to continue on the subject of schools, I'd

21 like to clarify something that seems to be an error that comes or stems

22 from the difficulties in relation to the language. You were asked a

23 question to find out if you were digging the trenches next to a certain

24 school, and there was a confusion that resulted from this. What happened?

25 Why did you mention this school, in relation to the trenches? Simply, in a

Page 18889

1 nutshell.

2 A. I think it was taken out of the context of my testimony, but I

3 really never dug any trenches behind the school.

4 Q. Very well. But what happened there? Was there, I don't know, any

5 need to quote this school in relation to the trenches?

6 A. In this school was located the troops of the 10th Mountain

7 Brigade, and mentioned along with the school there was -- in the yard of

8 that school there was a mortar there.

9 Q. The question, one before last, in relation to the -- no, not -- no

10 need to do that, Mr. President. It's already been established.

11 Another question: Witness, you have told us that in your mind, as

12 far as you recall, Serb shelling came from Trebevic as frequently as

13 Muslim forces wished this to happen. That was your testimony on page 55,

14 line 3. My question is the following: In relation to the old town and

15 the parts of the town that you knew there, the shellings in these parts,

16 did they seem to you to be very intense, intense? What can you tell us

17 about the intensity of these shellings in these areas? And I'm talking

18 about Serb shellings of these areas. Thank you.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. That's an area that

20 has not been touched upon in cross-examination at all, the frequency of

21 shelling in the old part of the town and Bistrik.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I believe

24 that the situation is the same as that from before. This is very close to

25 the subject dealt with in cross-examination by the Prosecution. Therefore,

Page 18890

1 it will be useful to know this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- you may answer the question, Witness.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a short -- a brief answer to

4 give. After each announced attack, there would be a shelling of the town

5 with the announcement of the attack and the shelling. All this would last

6 some 10, 20 minutes. And after that, you could take a walk in the town.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And vice versa.

8 Q. Witness, do you remember attacks from Trebevic which were not

9 followed by sirens -- which the sirens did not follow?

10 A. Yes. There were such attacks -- well, not attacks, but there were

11 some shells that landed on the town, and that happened on occasions when

12 it would be announced that some building -- there was fabrication,

13 manufacturing of weapons. There were troops located in some building.

14 But most of the time it was the weapons manufacturing. I know that in

15 Bistrik that's how three shells landed there. And following those shells,

16 I heard the following story in the streets, that all the Serbs should --

17 Q. I'm going to interrupt you, Witness.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

19 transcript, my question in French was the opposite what was -- what is in

20 the English transcript. If the witness recalled attacks that were not

21 announced by the sirens, that is, that did not follow the sirens. Not the

22 other way around. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It will be corrected. But if I just -- the question

24 is whether there were any attacks or at least shelling not preceded by

25 sirens.

Page 18891

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were individual shells that

2 would land on certain targets. These targets were most frequently caused

3 by an information that there were weapons manufactured in a building. And

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then -- five to six minutes --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until quarter past 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.57 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

11 Mr. DP2, Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions for you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Could the map 1817 be shown to the witness.

15 Mr. Witness, you said that number 8 at the Ciglane tunnel was

16 wrongly put there. Could you take a red pen and mark the right spot.

17 A. [Marks]

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you make a circle and put the number "8"

19 inside.

20 A. [Marks]

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. And it was almost the same with

22 the faculty. Do you remember that? Would you do the same exercise?

23 A. [Marks]

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. And finally, you mentioned the

25 school where the Caco's troops were billeted. Do you remember that?

Page 18892

1 Would you put a red circle and an "S" inside, please.

2 A. Number 9?

3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Oh, it's number 9. I'm sorry. Thank you.

4 A. [Marks]

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. No further questions, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for

7 you as well.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, you said that in your opinion the

10 shots from the city, their purpose was to provoke a reaction on the part

11 of the enemy side. And you came to this conclusion -- this was your

12 opinion because of what the inhabitants said. They were afraid that shots

13 being fired from the vicinity of the homes would have a certain result,

14 and they said, "Don't shoot, because this will provoke enemy fire." If I

15 have understood you correctly, you yourself analysed the purpose that the

16 other side was pursuing, the objective the other side was pursuing. And

17 if I have understood you correctly, you came to the conclusion that the

18 Serbian side was aiming at military objectives. How did you arrive at

19 this conclusion?

20 A. My position wasn't based on what people said but on the basis of

21 my own experience in Sarajevo. I haven't had the opportunity of showing

22 you another 20 locations in Sarajevo where the BH army was billeted, in

23 all schools, nurseries, universities, and in office buildings, company

24 buildings. And I am really claiming this on the basis of my personal

25 experience up until May of 1994. I don't know whether fire was ever

Page 18893

1 opened without this having been provoked or without there being sirens

2 which were sounded when Muslim forces were attacking or carrying out

3 attack against the Serbian positions, and this is the truth.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, with

5 regard to the mobile mortars, there is something that is bothering me,

6 because the fact that they are mobile, I find it difficult to understand.

7 I find it difficult to understand your conclusions. Was the Serb side

8 targeting these mortars or other objectives?

9 A. Well, this doesn't only have to do with mobile mortars. I've

10 indicated those six mortars at the ring road to the right. We could refer

11 to the image again, to the map. And I indicated the mobile mortars which

12 would move from one street to another. And it's -- and most frequently

13 the pass -- the objective was the place from which fire had been opened,

14 and that is the place that the Serbs would direct fire to when responding.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the response was

16 directed at the place from which the mortar had been fired? I'll repeat

17 that perhaps. You're not hearing the translation?

18 A. Yes. It's fine now.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So the response was directed at

20 the location of the mobile mortars. Because if I have understood you

21 correctly, you said that the inhabitants of a neighbourhood where these

22 mobile mortars were located, they were afraid of reprisals being taken and

23 directed at their houses. So if I've understood you correctly, the

24 Serbian side did target the places from which these mortars had been

25 fired.

Page 18894

1 A. [No audible response]

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And this is not necessarily a

3 military objective. Rather, the location is not a military objective.

4 I'm not talking about the mortars as such.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So the response was directed at a

7 location but not necessarily at the target itself; that is to say, at the

8 mortar itself, which is by nature mobile and can thus easily be moved.

9 A. Yes, you're quite right. The place from which the mortars were

10 fired was the place that was targeted when fire was returned. You are

11 quite right.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, thank you. And if

13 I've understood you correctly, you said that the response would usually

14 last for 20 minutes. Is that your testimony, or have I misunderstood you?

15 A. You've understood me correctly. Twenty minutes from the time the

16 sirens were sounded or the mortars were fired from. Then fire would be

17 returned. They would use a few -- they would fire a few shells. I think

18 that that lasted for between 15 and 20 minutes at the most.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But my question is: How long did

20 it last, the response, the retaliation itself? I am not talking about

21 when the response commenced. If I have understood you correctly, you said

22 that the response lasted 20 minutes.

23 A. Yes. It's difficult to say how long the Serbian side took to

24 respond. You have to know that there were inter-Muslim conflicts in the

25 city itself. So these incidents with mortars and -- which included the

Page 18895

1 return of fire from the Serbian side, these incidents were used when

2 Muslims were dealing with each other, when there were conflicts between

3 Muslims. I was present when Caco fired at the other part of town, at

4 Dragan Vikic, in the police centre. He was a well known police commander.

5 So it's difficult for me to say how long this lasted on the Serbian side,

6 because I was in the basement --

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But allow me. Could you just

8 answer my question. How long did the response on the part of the Serbian

9 side last?

10 A. As I said, between 15 and 20 minutes. But this included

11 inter-Muslim conflicts in the city, conflicts between the Muslims

12 themselves in the city. That's my final answer.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You said that you

14 witnessed shots being fired from mobile mortars. You said you witnessed

15 shells being fired from mobile mortars.

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you said that the person who

18 fired these shells was in uniform, was a member of the military in

19 uniform. And the vehicle, was it possible to recognise the vehicle as a

20 military vehicle on the basis of its colours?

21 A. I wouldn't say it was a military vehicle. We called a vehicle a

22 TAM, a T-A-M. It's a small lorry, a one and a half tonne lorry, and this

23 anti-aircraft machine-gun or mortar is mounted on that lorry and then fire

24 is opened from this vehicle. It stops in a street. It fires some shots,

25 and then it goes to another street.

Page 18896

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But was it possible to recognise

2 the vehicle easily as a vehicle which belonged to the army?

3 A. No. It was an ordinary TAM lorry. And as far as I know, the army

4 didn't use such lorries. It was a city vehicle which had been modified

5 for these purposes.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And, for example, you didn't

7 notice -- observe Volkswagen cars, vehicles. There were only vehicles of

8 other makes that you saw, that you could see? I think that you said that

9 you saw fire being opened from these vehicles on five or six

10 occasions -- four or five occasions. So these weren't really Volkswagen

11 vehicles.

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP2, I've got a few questions for you as well.

15 And I would like to draw your attention to your testimony in respect of a

16 shell falling in people queuing for bread. You said you were involved in

17 it. Could you, first of all, tell us exactly where that is, whether it's

18 on this map. And could you please point at it. You said it was in Vasa

19 Miskin Street, as far as I remember.

20 A. Yes. This street is now called Ferhadija Street, but it was

21 Vasa Miskin.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please with a red pen point to make a

23 circle and a cross and add -- I think it would be number -- would it be

24 11?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 18897

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell me, how long was that queue?

2 How many people were queuing for bread?

3 A. The queue was 50 metres long, and there were up to three or four

4 people lined up in the -- in the queue. I was at the end of the

5 queue -- three or four people abreast in the queue.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know how many people were injured or

7 killed?

8 A. I think about 20, 25 people -- no, that's the amount of people who

9 were killed. That's the number of people who were killed. But far more

10 people were wounded.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were in that queue as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Were you injured?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell me how wide is that street is. Is it,

16 first of all -- yes, first of all, how wide is it?

17 A. Well, 5 or 6 metres. It's a narrow street.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's a narrow street.

19 A. Between 5 and 7 metres, not more.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you told us that it was exceptional that

21 people had to queue outside for bread; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. A little further below, that's where you received that

23 bread, from the Romanija cinema. There was a passageway there, and that's

24 where we would wait. That's where we were. When the lorry would come,

25 they would give us the bread and we would give them coupons as money. And

Page 18898

1 the first time a shell fell, we were taken out to this position. It's the

2 only direction that is open to -- in the direction of the Serbs in Borije.

3 That's where a shell can come from. And we were wondering why they took

4 us out there, since all the shops in Titova Street were empty and the

5 bread could have been distributed there. So why at this location where

6 what happened to us happened?

7 JUDGE ORIE: It's not quite clear to me. You said, "And the first

8 time a shell fell." Were you then already queuing outside when the first

9 shell fell?

10 A. Only one shell fell.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Only one shell fell.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And is that street where you had to queue, is that

14 going east-west or north-south? How should I on this map interpret your

15 marking? Is the street from the left to the right or from bottom to the

16 top on this map?

17 A. If we go in the direction of this sign, it's along the

18 Miljacka River. If we go in the direction of the markings, it's the

19 south-eastern part.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would mean more, rather, west-east rather

21 than north-south. Is that a correct understanding of your answer?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You say that you were taken out to a place facing

24 from where Serb shells could have come from. If I look at this map, am I

25 right in understanding that both to the north and to the south at a

Page 18899

1 distance of approximately 2 to 3 kilometres there would be Serbian

2 positions?

3 A. That street is so narrow, and the buildings are fairly high. So

4 it's not possible for a shell to fall from the left and the right-hand

5 side, from the Serbian positions. To the extent that I understand

6 ballistics, it couldn't have been fired from this street in order to fall

7 here. It could only have fallen -- come from the Serbian positions that

8 I'm indicating here, which is where I dug trenches in Borije.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please zoom out so that --

10 Would you please point again to the Serbian positions in your view

11 would be the only ones from where such a --

12 The witness --

13 A. It's not on the map. It would be approximately here. From Miskin

14 Street, you can see Serb positions. From that location, you can see them.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The witness -- the witness points at the edge of the

16 map where the word "Sarajevo" has been cut into "Sarajev" just below where

17 he marked that he had had to dig trenches.

18 So the shells -- at least that was suggested that the shells might

19 have come from the north-eastern direction; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, where would the shells have come from in your

22 view? Because your answer suggests that it was not a shell that came from

23 a Serbian position but, rather, from a BiH position. Could you indicate

24 what position you thought as a possible origin of fire.

25 A. Well, when we lived in Sarajevo, according to the imprint of a

Page 18900

1 shell on the asphalt, we would always be able to recognise as good experts

2 where the shell could have come from.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where did it come from, in your view?

4 A. In this case, according to the imprint, the -- where the

5 directions where the shrapnel had gone, they went to all directions with

6 the same frequency. If it had gone in one -- from one direction, then it

7 would have gone in the opposite way. We would always know that if the

8 traces were on one side, that the shell would have come from the other

9 side. But even today you can see that the traces, the imprints, are going

10 star-like, all around the trace, which confirms that this came almost

11 vertically. And I believe that my statement is true, that it is most

12 probably that this shell was fired by their own forces on their own

13 people. That is my explanation. This is what I believe on the basis of

14 why I think we found ourselves precisely there -- found us there in

15 this -- and I was told this by this man from the 10th Mountain Brigade who

16 told me that this was done by their own side. I cannot claim this is

17 true, but I believe this is my position, that this could have been their

18 own shell fired on their own people.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From where would it have been fired, then, in

20 order to fall almost vertically on that place?

21 A. If it is true, the information I received, then it was fired from

22 Planika, from the same building before the war. It used to be a shoe

23 store. It was called Planika. And it was fired --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you indicate on the map where that is. Could

25 you perhaps first point at it and --

Page 18901

1 A. Here, next to this circle on the left-hand side, on the left

2 side - not on the right side- what looks like a building here.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- could we perhaps first zoom in on

4 that place. And then could you please indicate precisely where your

5 situate Planika.

6 A. Well, I -- this is where it is. This is where the location of the

7 firing would be. This is where I just indicated, here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that that's a very short distance

9 of -- I mean, that's a matter of, perhaps, 50, 60, 70 metres from the

10 place where the shell landed?

11 A. No. It was dropped from the top of the building. That is, 3

12 metres to the right.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It was dropped from the building. That's what you

14 were told, or is that your --

15 A. Yes. Yes. That's the information that I told you about, a

16 protected piece of information.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Protected in what way? You mean the man who told

18 you. You mentioned his name, I think, and -- yes. So that shell was --

19 A. Yes, that's right. Yes, I told you this. Yes. And from the

20 high-rise building of JAT, Yugoslav airlines, there was a sniper who was

21 active from the eighth or ninth floor, and I heard this sniper. And after

22 that there was an information that this sniper had been strangled in the

23 toilet while the other two that fired this shell, they were killed.

24 That's the information that I have.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So the shell was fired or thrown?

Page 18902

1 A. Thrown.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you seen any of this by yourself, or is

3 this just the explanation given to you later on by the person you

4 mentioned?

5 A. Personally, I can only say that when I was there, I heard sniping

6 from a high-rise building and that this sniper, he did snipe, it's

7 true. About a year after that there was a friend of mine who spoke on TV

8 and who said that he lived in the Planika building where he lived. And

9 when it happened, he went downstairs to help those that were wounded and

10 killed. And from the JAT skyscraper, there was a sniper that was firing

11 and was just creating even more chaos, and then it turned out that there

12 was this -- there was a Serb man that was in the toilet. So my question

13 was: If it was a Serb man who was strangled in the toilet, then my

14 question was why was he strangled? Why wasn't he taken out to be tried,

15 and why weren't we told that this happened? So that's why I believe that

16 this shell was thrown.


18 A. I believe that's how it happened.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Did the shell fall in the middle of the queue or at

20 the far end or at the beginning of the queue?

21 A. It fell next to the queue, about 10 metres from the beginning of

22 the queue. It was closer to the beginning of the queue, the front end of

23 the queue than to the end of the queue. It didn't actually fall on the

24 citizens there.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And the people in the queue were, therefore, never

Page 18903

1 further away than some 40, 45 metres from where the shell landed. Is

2 that -- or not more than 50 metres; is that correct?

3 A. No, sir. There were two or three metres from where the shell

4 landed. The shell landed next to the queue.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said that some -- I don't know the exact

6 number, but a high number of people were killed and far more were injured.

7 How did you escape from any injury in this incident being in the queue?

8 A. I was at the end of the queue. At the end of the queue there was

9 a Bosna folklore shop, and I was at the very end of the queue, and the

10 shell didn't touch me. And I'm not the only one who was not wounded.

11 Many of us were not injured.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers.

13 My next question would be about what you said, that sometimes

14 shells would fall without previous siren warnings, and that would be if

15 the -- if information would have been received about manufacturing plants

16 of weaponry. Do you remember saying that?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you said that this was in response to

19 information received on manufacturing plants, what did you know about the

20 information received by those who fired the shells prior to firing them?

21 A. My information was very limited. I couldn't know anything in

22 particular. What I did know is that the street where I live in, three

23 such shells landed on a building about which neighbours and citizens who

24 were passing by told me, "You see, this is the fifth column working."

25 These were the fifth column, meaning the people who were telling the other

Page 18904

1 side what was happening. "How would the Serbs otherwise know that there

2 were weapons being manufactured here. They should all be killed." So

3 that's what I'm telling you. Sometimes shells land when there were no

4 provocations from the town.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That was your conclusion, that the Serbs must have

6 been informed about the presence of a manufacturing plant there.

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever yourself pass any information to the

9 other side of the confrontation line?

10 A. No. But when I left the town, I testified about what was

11 happening in the town.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. I have no further questions for

13 you.

14 Is there any need to re-examine the witness on -- yes, please,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, there were three or four subjects that

18 need to be looked at again, the first being in relation to a question

19 asked by Judge El Mahdi. You were asked a question about the length of

20 the shelling. Do you remember that question?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. I'm going to quote now the President, who was quoting

23 you. Page 26, line 21. And this is what the President told you, in

24 English: [In English] "And after ten minutes, there would be a response

25 and the shells would start falling." [Interpretation] End of quote.

Page 18905

1 I'm interested in these ten minutes. You were told about a period

2 of 20 minutes. When you answered affirmatively, when you said yes, did

3 you include in this general period of time these ten minutes of reaction

4 that preceded the action itself?

5 A. That's what I said. From the --

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object. I object.


8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object. I think this issue was very well

9 explained by the witness and the Defence counsel is now leading the

10 witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have no objection against questions,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but would you please refrain from leading.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

15 Q. On page 69, line 12 you also mentioned, in relation to shellings,

16 the following, what I'm going to quote: [In English] "-- Conflicts

17 between Muslims themselves in the city." [Interpretation] What do you

18 mean by these conflicts between Muslims themselves in the city? Could you

19 give us an example, please?

20 A. Well, that is just a separate topic of this Sarajevo war. It is

21 not unknown that Muslim commanders had divided up the town, not only on

22 areas of war but also areas of looting and robbing their own people.

23 Among themselves, they fought more than fighting the Serb side. They

24 fought about the territory for control, and I would say that each of this

25 Serb response, they tried to attach that to the Serb side. Not just once

Page 18906

1 but more than once I would see from Bistrik that Caco would be firing

2 shells on the police of the other side. So everybody was against the

3 police, and they all fought against each other, and yet they were still

4 all against the police. It was real chaos in the city, and one just had

5 to struggle to survive.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, third question: In relation to the incident

7 that you witnessed on the street that you mentioned earlier, the

8 Vasa Miskin Street. And on this subject you answered to a question asked

9 by the President saying that in theory the direction of the source of fire

10 would have been more or less that one of north-east. It would have been

11 fire from north-east. Do you recall that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. My question is the following: Do you know if - and

14 here I am referring to the direction - if this line of the theoretical

15 source of fire, would it include in its trajectory several positions; yes

16 or no? What I mean by "several positions," I mean several positions of

17 the opposite side.

18 A. I am unable to know this.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 Mr. DP2, this concludes your evidence in this court. I think I

23 already once thanked you for coming. I now can thank you for coming

24 twice. And since you look still to be in good shape, I hope that you have

25 just as safe a return home as you had last time.

Page 18907

1 I would ask you to -- just to stay seated until the public gallery

2 has been closed so that the protective measures are in effect.

3 I -- since the parties have not paid specific attention to the

4 pictures you put at their disposal, I would like them to be returned to

5 you by the registrar. And I hope you don't mind that you have done some

6 work which --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends on what you would like to say. If

9 you would refrain from comments and tell us what you -- I will stop you if

10 there's -- if it's something that I would rather not hear. But please go

11 ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is with great

13 happiness and with great pleasure that I accepted to come here and testify

14 as a witness. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 What I would like to say - and I don't want to take your time - is

20 that -- well, I better not. I just want to thank you. If I have

21 contributed to enlightening you on the circumstances in wartime Sarajevo,

22 that will be a great pleasure to me, and I wish you good work and a lot of

23 justice in your further work, and I'd like to transmit to General Galic

24 the greetings from the Serb Sarajevo. Thank you very much. And please

25 don't mind if I have abused the opportunity to speak.

Page 18908

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I do understand that you feel that it was

2 good to appear and to tell in this court. We are happy to hear that.

3 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

4 courtroom.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to wait for the

8 witness to leave, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, I can inform you that the decision you are

10 looking forward to has been filed today. So you'll certainly find it.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.


13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I was just waiting for

14 the witness to leave out of courtesy. I believe, Mr. President, that we

15 are going to have to strike what the witness said about his family

16 background, which is obviously too close to him.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that would perhaps be redacted. That would

18 be a wiser thing to do. None of the parties has put questions to him,

19 but ...

20 I just want to express that it's exclusively for these grounds

21 that we strike this from the public record.

22 Madam Registrar, would you please prepare a redaction.

23 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, quarter past 2.00.

24 Madam Registrar, is this in this same courtroom?

25 In this same courtroom. Well, we don't have to wait for the

Page 18909

1 redaction. I'll sign it when we leave the courtroom.

2 We'll adjourn.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

4 at 7.04 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

5 the 4th day of February, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.