Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19690

1 Tuesday, 18 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom. I am

10 informed that you'd like to address the Chamber in private session,

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President,

13 yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We will move into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

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12 Pages 19691-19694 redacted private session














Page 19695

1 (redacted)

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6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to continue the

12 cross-examination of the expert witness, Professor Dunjic.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

14 questions for the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is there any need to reexamine the witness,

16 Professor Dunjic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps I should confer.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please escort Professor

19 Dunjic into the courtroom.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just one question,

21 Mr. President.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst the witness is being brought in

24 to save time in relation to the next witness, Colonel Gray, I've been

25 handed some four videotapes, about 15 minutes ago, by way of disclosure.

Page 19696

1 I'd be grateful for an opportunity to view those, ideally before

2 cross-examination commences. I don't know what's on them.

3 Also, there's a CD we've been handed which the Defence has been

4 unable to open which was given to us 15 minutes ago, maybe 20. We've

5 managed to already download a number of documents from that. I understand

6 the Defence had some problems accessing it. So there is material to be

7 gone through, Mr. President. Thank you.


9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, 7 days is not the same as 15 minutes.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Professor Dunjic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

16 solemn declaration you've made at the beginning of your testimony.

17 Professor Dunjic, the Prosecution has no further questions for you

18 but the Defence has some additional questions.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness, again. Do you hear me?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'd like us to come back incident number four, number six, we are

25 talking about the same thing. The Prosecution asked you many questions

Page 19697

1 about the difference that existed between the statement of the witness or

2 the testimony of the witness and the medical report that is on the

3 question of the entry point and the exit point of the projectile; do you

4 remember this?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Instead of nodding, you could you give a loud answer

6 because to translate nodding is very difficult.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this was in relation to

8 incident number four.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

10 Q. Thank you. My question is the following: Witness, at the moment,

11 when a doctor examines a victim, an injured person, according to your

12 experience, is it immediately possible to establish what is the entry

13 wound and the exit point or, on the contrary, is it something that we

14 cannot do and why not if we can't?

15 A. In principle, this depends on the experience of the doctor who is

16 carrying out the examination, that is the first fact. So the doctor has

17 to make a diagnosis of the injuries so it's not for him -- it's not a

18 primary task to see what's the exit, what's the entry, just that the

19 injury that he has to treat. If there are two injuries, he then has to

20 see whether they are linked by a channel so that what would be injured on

21 that trajectory from the entry to the exit point and possibly someone who

22 has experience, more or less a doctor, would be able to see the size and

23 the form of the wound but that would depend on the treating doctor.

24 Q. Very well. What interests me is the document that we had a look

25 at together and that was the report in relation to the incident about the

Page 19698

1 injury. Do you know which document I'm talking about?

2 A. That is the document that we read yesterday, yes.

3 Q. Indeed. Professor, how many days did it pass between the moment

4 of the injury, when the injury occurred, and when this document was

5 written?

6 A. This is a report from the hospital and that was compiled on the

7 day of admission, on the 25th of June, 1993, 25th of June, 1993.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. I'm sorry, and here, right at the bottom, this report is done

10 immediately but then I can see that there is a date, 11th of the 11th,

11 1995, I don't know what that is, I don't know when that was issued. I

12 don't know.

13 Q. Very well. If this report is compiled immediately, and if it is

14 compared to the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President this is beyond the scope of

17 cross-examination.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

20 express myself but of course the presence of the witness is an obstacle to

21 this.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just indicate where in cross-examination

23 the matter has been dealt with to start with, I think that would not

24 influence the witness as something he has been present.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very well, but

Page 19699

1 the problem is between the date, but I don't know whether Mr. Mundis

2 wishes to speak.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would like to address the Chamber in

5 the absence of the witness, if I may.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if -- now both parties are asking the

7 witness to leave the courtroom. Professor Dunjic, I have to ask you to

8 leave, accompanied by the usher.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, I think it would be -- you would like to

11 do it in private session?

12 MR. MUNDIS: It doesn't need to be, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps since Mr. Piletta-Zanin first asked to

14 explain how it derives from the cross-examination I would first like to

15 give him the opportunity and then hear from you, Mr. --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

17 question that I wanted to ask that would be the last question to the

18 witness and this is just chronologically speaking in terms of factual

19 experience. We know that as time goes by we forget things and things can

20 happen, the position of things we can forget. Therefore, if this

21 certificate, this document was written immediately after or very quickly

22 after the fact occurred I think that the people who issued it at the time

23 they had a much clearer vision of what the injury was at the time

24 including the difference between the entry and exit wounds. And of course

25 if a person is injured, they don't know exactly how they were injured,

Page 19700

1 perhaps in the back, but then what happens is that the witness will maybe

2 forget. So my problem is a chronological problem, nothing else.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand your problem, but is this in the

4 expertise of this expert witness, that's my problem, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I

5 don't know, as far as the witness just testified, that the report was made

6 on the 25th of June, 1993, whether that is true or not, I don't know.

7 But --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I just add something,

9 Mr. President? I don't know to what extent a scar can heal in the course

10 of time, that is, I don't know how we can see through a scar where was the

11 entry, where was the exit wound. It can happen that the injury before it

12 closes, we can then see where the exit and the entry wounds are. I don't

13 know whether it is the same situation after the scar appears, after the

14 wound is healed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes so the first question would be were the scars of

16 entry or exit wounds are disappearing and if they do not disappear they

17 are still there, that's -- Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could draw to your attention the

19 second -- page of the English translation of the medical report it

20 indicates that the date of 11 November 1995 is handwritten along with

21 three signatures.


23 MR. MUNDIS: I would also draw to the Trial Chamber's attention

24 the fact that on 11 November 1995 the victim to which this medical report

25 refers was interviewed by investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor

Page 19701

1 and made a statement which was signed on the 11th of November, 1995.


3 MR. MUNDIS: I don't have copies of that statement available in

4 the courtroom, Mr. President, but --

5 JUDGE ORIE: But let me just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is part

6 of your position that this document was created on the 11th of November

7 or -- no, so therefore there seems to be no confusion about that.

8 Then Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you can ask the questions but let's keep

9 in mind not to tell stories to the witness and ask his comment but to ask

10 him a question and the first one would then be whether the scars would

11 disappear.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, as usual.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Professor Dunjic

14 into the courtroom.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Witness, my question is as follows: If, with the passage of time,

19 do you know whether the scars, whether they are the scars of the entry

20 wound or the exit wound, do you know whether the scars disappear with the

21 passage of time?

22 A. If these wounds are in question, the scars remain permanently.

23 The scar just changes its colour, its first pink and then it becomes pale

24 and it's on the basis of the colour of the scar that we can determine how

25 old the wound is. And the scar, in general, has an irregular form which

Page 19702

1 is supposed to close off the point of contact of the projectile with the

2 skin, because this is where the defect is inflicted on the skin. This

3 scar can be fairly regular, it can also be sort of under the skin, it

4 depends on the reaction of the tissue itself and also depends on medical

5 intervention, will whether medical intervention was performed on the wound

6 itself in order to clean the wound et cetera. So this scar always

7 remains.

8 Q. Very well. Doctor, Professor, I apologise. If, for example, a

9 professional such as yourself examined the wounded party of the body of

10 the victim we are talking about, would it be possible for such a person to

11 determine the point of entry and the exit point?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

14 Mr. President. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Judge Nieto-Navia has

16 questions for you.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. Yesterday you were

19 talking about the medical documents and you said in some of the incidents

20 you had at hand a medical documents, in other incidents you didn't have

21 the documents and you said the following: "I have to say there was such

22 cases where the witness was not at all hurt." I take it that most of the

23 witnesses were not hurt at all, but my question is were you referring to

24 witnesses or the victims?

25 Do you want me to quote you again? You said, "I have to say,

Page 19703

1 there was such cases where the witness," and I noted that, "was not actual

2 hurt." My question is were you referring to witnesses or to victims?

3 A. I don't think that was correctly translated. I said that in

4 certain cases, individual cases, I didn't have medical documentation but

5 in some cases, the victims hadn't been examined, the wounded hadn't been

6 examined. Witnesses had been examined. That's what I said.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That is different.

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You were asked about the position of the

10 bodies; do you remember that, on a given incident and you said the

11 following: "If we don't know this position, then we are unable to

12 determine the position from which, let's say, the projectile came".

13 Do you recall that?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is the following: Normally, I

16 would say the victim is removed from the place in which he is wounded,

17 even in cases in which you don't know whether the victim is already dead

18 or not, the body is removed. So my question is: How do you know which

19 was the position the victim at that very moment?

20 A. Allow me to elaborate on this. That's the essence of everything

21 that I have tried to present to you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are suffering from technical

23 problems?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: For the interpreters, the problem is the microphone,

Page 19704

1 as far as I understand. Yes, yes -- no -- the interpreters asked you to

2 use the microphone but I was explaining that you might not be able to do

3 so. A new microphone for Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please.

4 I take it that we can continue and see whether the problem could

5 be solved. Yes. Yes, Professor Dunjic, you just started to give an

6 explanation and --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?


9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be brief. When we said that we

10 determined the position of the body of an injured party, our first and

11 main parameter is the wound channel, the entry wound and the exit wound,

12 the location of the entry wound and the exit wound.

13 Let's say that this is a certain individual, if you'll view this

14 from above, the entry could be the right part of the rib cage and the

15 projectile goes in this direction. It comes out at the back and its

16 direction goes upwards. Yesterday, I said that we determined the nature

17 of the wound on the basis of the physiological position of the body when

18 performing an autopsy and when we examine a human body regardless of

19 whether the person is dead or not. We have a look at the channel, it goes

20 from the right to the left, from bottom upwards but what is important here

21 if we have a look at the body from the side, if we look at the body in

22 profile, it can go upwards, the channel can go upwards so we have three

23 dimensions of this channel in order to determine it. That's what the

24 channel would look like, that's what would be the physiological position.

25 Having determined the physiological position of the body it's

Page 19705

1 important to hear what the injured party or other witnesses have to say.

2 And if the witness or the injured party says that I was bent forwards or

3 backwards when hit, that statement then has a certain weight in relation

4 to the medical evidence and we compare such statements with the position

5 is a person X or Y. That's where the person was hit in a position which

6 the person mentioned or did not mention, we then determine the location

7 from which that projectile may have come.

8 We then have the point from which fire may have been opened and if

9 that corresponds to the wound channel, then we say that that is the

10 position of the injured party, as the injured party stated or as the

11 witnesses stated. If we don't know the position from which fire was

12 opened, we need to have two factors. We need to have the position of the

13 body, that is the first thing, we have to know whether the person was

14 crouching, was bent over, we need to know when the projectile arrived, and

15 we need a medical document saying how the wound was described, in medical

16 terms.

17 So we need the position in order to draw a line, you have to know

18 the channel of the wound here and the direction the projectile came from.

19 From this position, or from this position towards the wound channel, and

20 on the basis of the position of the body, we determine the direction from

21 which the projectile came. We have to have two points which we have to

22 link: The injured party and the position from which fire was opened if

23 I've been sufficiently clear. So the channel, the channel within the body

24 gives us the reason of saying the person was hit from the front and that

25 was if someone had fired at me from down below, in this direction, but I

Page 19706

1 wasn't in that position and then witnesses might say that I was in some

2 other position.

3 I still maintain the wound channel but in that case, the direction

4 of the projectile is changed, the position from which that projectile came

5 and hit me. So on the basis of witness statements and medical documents

6 we try to determine the direction from which the projectile came in these

7 particular situations in which I have described.

8 Apart from certain witness statements and some medical

9 documentation, I didn't have the necessary parameters in order to relate

10 these two points to each other, the medical documents and the witness

11 statements. I didn't have the material to establish a straight line

12 between these two points in order to determine the direction from which

13 the projectile came. That is how we determine the position of the body at

14 the time that the person was wounded. We have to know the position from

15 which fire was opened and we need to have medical facts that have been

16 determined.

17 If we don't know where fire was opened from then we use medical

18 documents and witness statements and we relate the two points to each

19 other and on that basis, establish the position from which fire was

20 opened.

21 What I said yesterday, on the basis of the look of the entry and

22 exit wound, we determine the wound channel and everything that is specific

23 to it; the type of projectile used that caused the entry wound and we

24 determine whether that projectile came directly or not because the wound

25 channel in the body can rebound from the first obstacle. For example, if

Page 19707

1 it hit the skull, if it entered the skull let's say this is the skull, the

2 channel could be here.

3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry I have to interrupt you. If I

4 understand you well, you're saying that physician can determine the entry

5 and exit wounds and the channel through which the bullet pass.

6 A. Yes, absolutely.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That's clear. But if you don't know the

8 origin of fire, can you determine that origin taking into account the

9 channel only?

10 A. The second parameter which is missing. I have to determine the

11 wound channel, the point of entry and the location of the entry wound and

12 the location of the exit wound as an expert this is what I have to do. In

13 order to determine the position from which fire is opened, the direction

14 from which the projectile came, I need to have another piece of evidence,

15 either the statement of a witness or of the injured party or the position

16 where the person was hit. For example, if someone is hit in the head and

17 the projectile enters at this point and comes out at this point and if the

18 person is in an open space, in a field, the projectile didn't fall from

19 the sky. I have to put him in a realistic position in which he could have

20 been hit so that he could have been hit in the head if he had been bent,

21 for example. So I can't say whether fire was opened from this direction

22 or this direction, it depends on the direction he was facing but it's a

23 fact that the projectile hit him here.

24 If I have a witness who says yes, he was in this position, he was

25 bent over, he was doing something, then on the basis of that witness

Page 19708

1 statement which I can relate to the wound, on that basis I can come to the

2 conclusion that the projectile came from a certain direction but from the

3 position where the person was wound and -- the position where the person

4 was wounded and the position from which the firearm opened fire, this is

5 the work of the ballistics expert he has to determine this. So it is on

6 this basis that we try to define the position of the body of a certain

7 injured party. We have to compare the medical documents to the witness

8 statements.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So we need always a third information, the

10 origin of the fire can be determined by the ballistic expert but only

11 taking into account the position of the victim, if this position is

12 known. If the position is not known then it is very difficult to

13 determine the origin of fire unless you have another information.

14 A. The ballistics expert has to determine that but only after one has

15 determined the channel wound. If someone is sitting in this courtroom,

16 for example, as I am and a projectile hits him from the back, that has to

17 be determined, someone fired from the back, not from here. Whether I was

18 sitting or standing is not relevant. That would be relevant if there was

19 another wound in front of me and if there is a wound behind me, at the

20 back as well. There have to be medical facts on the basis of which you

21 can try to assess the statement given by the injured party and assess the

22 witness statements, but if no one is present and I am wounded, then

23 these -- then the material traces will determine my position.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Just a minute.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 19709

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: We were checking on the transcript yesterday,

2 the sentence that I quoted to you at the very beginning and it is exactly

3 what I said, "I have to say, there was such cases where the witness was

4 not at all hurt." It's page 19641, line 8. It's probably a problem of

5 translation. Thank you, Professor, don't worry about it.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with that case. I

7 apologise, but a witness was questioned who wasn't injured but the injured

8 party wasn't questioned. That's incident number 22. The witness

9 testified about a friend who had been injured, but the injured party

10 wasn't questioned. Perhaps that's where the problem lies.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Professor, no further questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more question for you as

13 well.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 [Interpretation] Professor, I'd like you to inform me about one or

16 two questions, given your expertise, a problem of a general nature. On

17 the basis of your practical and academic knowledge in the course of an

18 armed conflict, is it a rule to examine each incident as if the incident

19 had occurred in normal circumstances but not in circumstances of war? On

20 the basis of your professional expertise, when there is an armed conflict,

21 are these medical examinations usually carried out for each incident, are

22 the victims questioned, are the witnesses questioned, are the channels

23 analysed, is the position of a given victim well-established?

24 A. If I've understood you correctly, I'll answer your question from

25 the medical point of view. In all cases, if someone has been fatally

Page 19710

1 wounded, if someone was killed by a firearm and in extraordinary

2 circumstances and in peacetime circumstances, autopsies are performed.

3 Forensic medical autopsies, they are carried out in the standard manner.

4 The procedure is well-known and such autopsies determine all the relevant

5 facts that I have been talking about.

6 If it appears to be necessary for there to be some sort of an

7 expert report, then we have a valid document on the basis of which we can

8 compile an expert report, the facts are established, and a record is made

9 and the doctor who is treating a wounded person, he doesn't have to

10 compile an expert report but he has to describe, with precision, what he

11 established, what he did, what procedure he followed. That's the standard

12 procedure and it doesn't matter whether the circumstances are

13 extraordinary, the wounded person doesn't have to be treated immediately,

14 he can be treated somewhere else, he is taken from the site and this is

15 the case for witnesses too. Six months later or a year later the witness

16 can give a statement, that doesn't matter but as an expert when compiling

17 an expert report I'll take this into consideration.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I've understood you

19 correctly you say when there is ongoing conflict this procedure is also

20 followed or should be followed, each incident should be examined, each

21 case of a person being wounded or killed should be examined and I'm

22 addressing you as an expert in this field. As an expert, you would say

23 that this is the procedure followed.

24 A. Yes, that is basically my answer but I should add something. If

25 the number of casualties is great, then particular attention has to be

Page 19711

1 paid to these forms of investigation, that is to say, the autopsies and

2 the examinations of the bodies in order to determine how the wound was

3 inflicted and how the person was killed, in order to determine whether all

4 the people in a certain incident or in a group of incidents were killed in

5 -- or were wounded in the same way and the doctrine of forensic medicine

6 in wartime conditions is such. The principles are such that one tries to

7 establish all the relevant elements.

8 For example, it's necessary to establish whether new weapons or

9 new chemical means are used. It is absolutely necessary to perform an

10 autopsy regardless of where the incidents take place. Sometimes there is

11 a great number of people who are killed in a certain conflict and then

12 it's not possible to perform an autopsy in the field or in an area that is

13 far away from an urban centre but later on, autopsies can be performed,

14 for example, when you exhume people and so on. This is the only way of

15 obtaining certain parameters that are essential in order to perform an

16 autopsy.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I remember this

18 well, in response to a question put to you by the Defence, you said that

19 during the bombing of Belgrade, you continued to perform your duties as an

20 expert who would examine the wounded and the dead.

21 My question relates to Sarajevo in particular. I think that you

22 are familiar with the conditions that prevailed in that city during the

23 period from 1992 to 1994. Do you think, and are you in a position to

24 answer this question, because perhaps you don't know about the situation

25 on the ground, the medical personnel and the means that you had at your

Page 19712

1 disposal, the hospitals, et cetera, given these factors, was it possible

2 to perform an examination, to analyse each incident in order to obtain

3 specific results which would establish with certainty, or almost with

4 certainty, the direction of fire, the cause of death, et cetera.

5 Given what you know, could you confirm anything of this kind?

6 A. I can confirm, I can affirm that autopsies could have been carried

7 out because there are always conditions in existence to carry out

8 autopsies and they should have been carried out and my starting point is

9 also how we -- what we did in Belgrade, how we did in Belgrade and how it

10 was in Sarajevo and I know there is a colleague, Ilija Dobrica, who is

11 mentioned in the report, I know him personally although we haven't seen

12 each other for 12 years, I think, we were at a conference and I was the

13 presidency of the forensic medicine of Yugoslavia so I know all the

14 colleagues from the former Yugoslavia and according to my information,

15 they operated regularly. They carried out autopsies. Now, I don't know

16 whether they did complete autopsies or just examination, I don't know,

17 because I was not in contact with him so that I can confirm this.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Professor Dunjic, I also have a few questions for

20 you.

21 Several times it appears in your report that you would have liked

22 to have had x-rays available in order to form your opinion. Did you see

23 any x-ray at all in relation to any of these cases you have studied?

24 A. Your Honour, I have to say that I have seen, and that was actually

25 on Sunday, three days ago, when I arrived, I saw that for incident

Page 19713

1 number -- incident -- I think that was in incident number 13. Then I saw

2 or rather it was shown to me in the photographs in the pictures - just a

3 moment - it's when I saw the photographs, that is the x-rays, that was the

4 first time that I saw and for all the other cases, I did not see a single

5 one. This is this thing.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You refer to case number 13 and you said you have

7 seen these x-rays only a couple of days ago. Yes.

8 A. This is it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Have you seen the transcripts of what happened in

10 this court in relation to case number 13 and when did you receive these

11 transcripts? Could you see them before you -- before you drafted your

12 report?

13 A. It was in September and -- that I was writing this report. That

14 was in September last year, and the transcripts were forwarded to me

15 roughly at that time, I can't remember the exact date, but this x-ray,

16 that's why I have put that in the report, that there should be an x-ray

17 not knowing that it existed because that was only that I got it on Sunday

18 when I arrived, the 16th but ...

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me put the next question to you. You had the

20 transcripts, you could look at them before you drafted your report; is

21 that a correct understanding of your testimony?

22 A. Yes. Yes, partly.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about incidents 13. Yes. Did you study

24 them?

25 A. Well, I read the information as much as I was able to understand

Page 19714

1 from the transcript to assess the situation medically, what's important

2 for me, what's necessary for me for this and that's why I've asked for the

3 x-rays. They could not be found or rather they were not around at the

4 time, I don't know why, because there was just the whole pile of

5 photographs and now when we were sorting out the documents, then I saw

6 that the photograph, in fact, that is, the x-ray in this case did exist

7 which is why I brought it along and that's why I wanted to show this to

8 you to say that this is one document and one -- there is also one document

9 from a number 21 when there is a complete medical history while the first

10 time when I was --

11 JUDGE ORIE: When I am interested to know about incident 21, I'll

12 ask you.

13 So you were not surprised to see this x-ray a couple of days ago.

14 A. I am surprised that I saw it but I can see that it's mentioned.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ask for it previously?

16 A. Well, I asked for complete documentation for all the cases, that

17 is all the photos and x-rays, everything.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. And then when you studied the

19 transcript while preparing your report, were you confronted with these

20 x-rays, did you then address those who instructed you and would you ask

21 them, you say "there must be x-rays, please provide them to me," or did

22 you not specifically ask for it?

23 A. I didn't -- I didn't specifically ask for this x-ray. I generally

24 asked for every incident, all the documentation, all the medical documents

25 that existed including the x-rays, for instance, that I mentioned.

Page 19715

1 Now, in my expert report, you have seen it, I founded it primarily

2 on medical facts and these were just leading points for me, the

3 statements, the testimonies, and the police report.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Were you aware, when you drafted your report, that

5 x-ray did exist?

6 A. Well, I knew that from the information that was mentioned by the

7 witness in his statement or in his testimony, but I can only write a

8 report on the basis of what I have.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you did not write, unfortunately, "I have

10 not seen the existing x-rays which disenabled me to draw further

11 conclusions," but you do write "There are no detailed description of the

12 mentioned wound in the medical documentation, neither x-ray snapshots."

13 So you write that there are no x-ray snapshots.

14 A. I am writing a report on the basis of what I have.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That answer is -- do you have -- have you seen

16 one x-ray or more x-rays on incident 13?

17 A. Unless I am mistaken, there are three photographs of an x-ray.

18 JUDGE ORIE: My next question would be: Could you please look,

19 again - Madam Registrar, could you assist me - at some of these sketches

20 you made? I'll select two for you.

21 Could you please put them on the ELMO, if possible.

22 Do you agree with me that the sketch you made where it reads case

23 4, that you used that when examined in chief about incident number four?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And you agree with me that the sketch on the

Page 19716

1 left-hand side, you used that when asked about the consistency between the

2 statement of Witness G with the direction of fire indicated by him?

3 Would you agree with me that the angle under which the arrow

4 approaches the body in the right picture is different from the angle on

5 the left picture?

6 A. If I've understood you correctly, Your Honour, are you saying

7 about this angle, about the angle of the body and the arrow.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about the angle between the arrow

9 indicated and I would say the axis of the shoulders of the body you

10 sketched.

11 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, now I understood you. It's the angle of the

12 shoulder and the arrow so this body should have been more like this, at

13 this angle. That should have been parallel.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree with me that the explanation you gave

15 via drafting the black sketch was a bit different from the green sketch?

16 A. As far as I recall, what I did with the black pen, that was in

17 relation to the question that I was asked by the Prosecutor in relation to

18 the testimony of the witness and I can again make another drawing now and

19 make it parallel so that we avoid any misunderstanding.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you, I just wanted to --

21 A. Yes, of course.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Whether we

23 agree on the fact that there is a different difference in the angle in

24 which the right arrow approaches the body compared to the axis of the

25 shoulders and the left sketch, the black one. Yes? If you'd like to

Page 19717

1 explain anything further, I'll give you an opportunity to do so because

2 you wanted to make a new sketch but would you just tell us first what you

3 would like to explain to us.

4 A. What I wanted to say, it's just because if -- now, if I sketched

5 it now, it would be a different angle but what's important in order to

6 understand what I'm trying to say is that in relation to the location of

7 the wound, according to the witness testimony and the medical

8 documentation, the direction that was shown by the witness where the fire

9 had come from, in both cases, these directions do not correspond with the

10 channel which I don't know -- for which I don't know what kind it is. I

11 don't know the direction of that channel. That's why I've put three

12 arrows. Here too, I could have put three arrows, but again it's this

13 direction according to the medical documentation.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the question, when put to you in respect of the

15 black drawing ignored the medical documentation, it was just about what

16 the witness had told us. Yes.

17 Then my next question would be: If you would exhumate a body

18 after ten years, would you generally be able to still find reliably the

19 wound channel if it only did hit soft tissue, if the projectile only did

20 hit soft tissue?

21 A. I have to say what the doctrine position is. The exhumation

22 always gives a positive result. That means whether it confirms something,

23 an assumption or whether it will refute it. In that sense that is a

24 positive result. If there is no soft tissue then we will look for the

25 bone tissue, I don't know what we will find but in these cases I noted one

Page 19718

1 incident, for instance, number five when ricochet is mentioned about a

2 hard surface. So I expect that if the exhumation is done, that the

3 projectile will be found in the body because no one is talking about the

4 exit wound and nobody noticed it and then there is an entry wound in the

5 thigh area. What would we gain by an exhumation? If soft tissue was

6 injured.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking in general terms what we would gain by

8 an exhumation because you explained that clearly in your report that we

9 would gain something by an exhumation. I'm asking you whether, if a

10 projectile would have hit only soft tissue, whether you would be able to

11 identify the wound channel after ten years in soft tissue. I'm not asking

12 whether you could find still the projectile or whether if it would have

13 hit the bone, whether you could see something in the bone, I'm just asking

14 you whether you would be able to identify, after ten years, a wound

15 channel in soft tissue.

16 A. In the case if there was a complete decomposition of soft tissue

17 and only skeleton is left of course we couldn't possibly, but I don't know

18 what we can find because it could happen that a body could be mummified,

19 that is, that the skin would be completely saponified or it would be

20 completely dried, so within that tissue it might be possible to find the

21 channel if such changes have occurred but I am reiterating I don't know

22 what we would encounter first it would have to do it and then we would

23 have to say.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say perhaps it's possible, perhaps it's

25 not possible.

Page 19719

1 Perhaps you will be able to identify such a wound channel and

2 perhaps not.

3 Could you tell us the decomposition of soft tissue under general

4 conditions because I do understand that it depends on perhaps the humidity

5 and all kind of other circumstances but in general, after how much time

6 you would not find soft tissue that would allow you to identify a wound

7 channel.

8 A. Soft tissue as a rule decomposes itself depending on the weather

9 condition, external, internal conditions, on the place of burial, whether

10 it had been already exhumed once and of course all the elements in the

11 body itself, the form, the cause of death, inflammation, processes and so

12 on. So I would say that in some average conditions of humidity,

13 temperature of the soil, average conditions at the time of the burial, if

14 the body was buried straight away and not certainly days later so that the

15 decomposition, the putrification didn't start outside in the air then we

16 can expect complete decomposition of the soft tissue and then after 7 to

17 15 years. That again depends on climatic conditions and that is very

18 individual on an average. But I have already done autopsies after three

19 months where there was a skeletalisation of the body without any soft

20 tissue and I have done also autopsy after eight years where soft tissue

21 was completely dried so there is no such a thing as a standard it's very

22 dependent on different influences but that's what -- when there is

23 wounding by firearm, when various types of projectiles are suspected then

24 always it's an x-ray can be used the beginning of autopsy to see whether

25 there are any fragments then we can see what kind of projectile was used

Page 19720

1 and so on.

2 JUDGE ORIE: My next question would be if a general practitioner

3 or a emergency station doctor would see a patient with a shot wound, would

4 he be able to give all the data you would need as a forensic medical

5 expert? I mean is the knowledge and the skill of an ordinary doctor or

6 someone who works in an emergency station, would that be sufficient to

7 give you all the data you would need for an expert report? You told us

8 what you actually needed; do you expect a normal doctor would be able to

9 provide you with this information?

10 A. I must tell you as a professor at the Faculty of Medicine, as far

11 as our students are concerned in the entire region of the former

12 Yugoslavia and I believe this is the same thing elsewhere in Europe,

13 abroad, what we teach them is that they have to stick to some standards

14 that are needed for forensic purposes which means that they have to do a

15 precise location of the wound to be able to describe it. These are two

16 important standards.

17 I know that in emergency medicine, that is in the emergency

18 treatment, injuries have to be attended to or emergency surgery. But

19 following that, after the treatment has been administered, every doctor

20 has to write a medical report about what he has done and that's when he

21 has to use the methodology that will be useful for forensic purposes.

22 That means he does not have to describe everything that we would do as

23 forensic experts, but what is necessary to describe that this defect in

24 the skin is regular, he can just say roughly one centimetre but he has to

25 locate the wound precisely and he has to write it as a diagnosis in Latin

Page 19721

1 so what I have told you vulnus transsclopetarium, reg. Femuris, et cetera

2 in on case. That would be shotgun wound of the right thigh, and that's

3 when we need the extra bit, two wounds, one to the front, one to the back.

4 He doesn't even have to specify whether the entry is front and exit is

5 back or the other way around but he must describe it that there are two

6 wounds that there is a wound here and that there is a wound there and

7 possibly the diameter of the wounds but this is what's missing here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I know what's missing. You have described that in

9 great detail, Professor Dunjic.

10 You say it would have to describe that, let me try to make it

11 quite simple, would a normal general practitioner or a emergency station

12 doctor, would he be able, for example, to make a clear distinction between

13 an oval entry wound you explained to us that you would find that if the

14 shot was fired at a certain angle or a more circular, is this a kind of

15 distinction a normal doctor -- would you expect a normal doctor to make

16 such a distinction?

17 A. Most of the doctors, even if they see it, they will not describe

18 it. That's what I know from practice.

19 Your Honour, he doesn't have to describe the wound, whether it is

20 an oval or whether it is a circle, that's not so important, but it's very

21 important whether there are two wounds or three wounds and to see whether

22 there is a link between them, that's very important. If he describes two

23 wounds then it is very easy for us to establish with an examination

24 whether they've been linked, what's entry, what's exit, but you must say

25 that they exist, he must at least describe what their size is and to give

Page 19722












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 19723

1 precise location again this is individual because our students generally

2 speaking medical students when they come to the fifth or sixth year of

3 medical studies all of these photographs that I was -- all these sketches,

4 all these photographs that I was making but in the original, we teach them

5 how to recognise the wound, what type of wounds there are, how is a wound

6 by a projectile, how is a wound by a knife, all these -- what's a stab and

7 so on and this is what they have to study for an exam and they have to

8 take the exam within the subject that I teach.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is it an obligatory for all those who are

10 studying medicine who want to become a doctor to follow the courses in

11 forensic medicine? Is it optional or is it obligatory?

12 A. Obligatory subject in our faculty.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have one final question for you: When

14 studying the case number four of which we spoke about a lot, did you

15 also -- first of all, let me ask you whether you saw the transcript and

16 what transcript, because he asked you about transcripts yesterday. Could

17 you still tell us what transcript you did see?

18 A. I looked at the CD with all the transcripts and here I have the

19 documents that I've already showed you and I know what transcript is, with

20 all the numbers just like it's here on the screen.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know the date of the transcript you studied?

22 A. I really don't know. And in the first statement that I read, and

23 that I used --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you remember what dates of transcript you --

25 A. I don't know, really. I don't. I can't remember.

Page 19724

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, in your list, it says the 28th of

2 January, 2002; is that correct?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think that is

4 the date of the transcript when Mr. L was heard, no, sorry, Mr. G, that's

5 incident number four.

6 JUDGE ORIE: He was examined on two days, not only on the 28th but

7 I -- so the expert witness has not seen the transcript of the 25th of

8 January; is that correct, since you indicate that it was the 28th.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know, the

10 professor looked at the disc on which all the transcripts were.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So your list is not of great use because he

12 has -- might have consulted all the transcripts.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... In the letter

15 is first of all the Professor has been made available Professor Dunjic all

16 the transcripts of all the witnesses or ...

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The only

18 problem was the time and I was trying to be precise in relation to the

19 letter of my learned colleague and the professor arrived on Sunday and

20 that's -- so we wanted to send the letter to Mr. Ierace on that day so it

21 wasn't just a transcript, all the other documents. That's obvious from

22 the letter.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then do you remember what actually the Witness

24 G described that he was doing when he was hit, and did you take that into

25 consideration?

Page 19725

1 A. As far as I recall from his testimony, he had heard some shots and

2 so he lay on the ground and after a couple of minutes, he got up just

3 to -- I think it was to pick lettuce or something and then that position,

4 he was half crouching, that's when, as he was shown on the recording, he

5 was hit in the back and the projectile hit him somewhere in the area of

6 the right shoulder in the back and that's what the Prosecutor asked me

7 about yesterday, but that's what I'm saying to you today. This what he

8 said, the testimony, does not correspond to the medical documentation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Either one of

10 them should be true, is that a correct understanding of your testimony

11 that if something does not --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One is right.

13 JUDGE ORIE: One of them is right and the other one would not be

14 right.

15 A. Someone is right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Do you have any, if you say,

17 picking -- no, I have no further questions for you.

18 Is there any need to put any further questions.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we'll have

20 a few questions after your last questions but I'm taking note of the time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you need for your

22 questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That depends to a large extent

24 on the answers, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You know that it's also, to some extent, in your own

Page 19726

1 hands.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, not much time, five or

3 ten minutes at the most, I think.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if we could conclude now, but that would then

5 be within five minutes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Then I would

8 finish in five minutes. Yes, then I take it that you would like to have

9 these sketches again on the ELMO.

10 Mr. Usher, could you please put them again on the ELMO.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

13 Q. Thank you, witness. Could you take the pointer, please. Could

14 you point it at the green figure. Don't move it anymore. Put it where

15 you put it a minute ago, please. There we are, stop. What is the object

16 drawn above your pointer? It's an elongated form at the bottom of the

17 green drawing?

18 A. This part here?

19 Q. What is it?

20 A. I tried to depict the right arm which was stretched out.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, would you agree with me that in the parallel

22 figure, the black figure that is next to the green one, could you put your

23 pointer on the black figure, the other drawing. Thank you. Would you

24 agree with me that this anatomical detail doesn't appear in this figure?

25 A. No, no.

Page 19727

1 Q. Thank you. Witness, to the best of your recollection, to the

2 extent that you can remember the hearing of yesterday, wouldn't it be true

3 to say that this second drawing -- I'll withdraw that.

4 Could you say what the full black arrows represent that we can see

5 in the black drawing? The full black arrows, below, below.

6 A. These arrows here?

7 Q. Yes exactly what are they?

8 A. They represent the possible channel wounds according to the

9 witness statements and these are the possible points of entry of the

10 projectile for those channels.

11 Q. Thank you. Would it be correct to say that this drawing depicts

12 four possible -- four possibilities that relate to the entry and the exit?

13 A. There are four possible directions here, there could be many more.

14 I've only indicated three here, but what I've drawn here, this is the

15 direction indicated by the witness. This isn't to be taken into

16 consideration.

17 Q. Witness, could you please your answer my question. Thank you very

18 much. I'm going to move on to another subject.

19 Mr. President -- and I would like you to just answer this

20 question, Mr. President asked you about young practitioners who are not as

21 experienced as you in your field, young interns and they weren't that

22 experienced in their missions in hospitals or in treatment centres, in

23 clinics, my question is as follows, if one does not have the professional

24 experience that you have and one sees several wounds inflicted by bullets

25 in wartime circumstances, if a doctor sees such wounds does one gain or

Page 19728

1 not gain practical experience which would help him determine immediately

2 the point of entry and the point of exit and I'm talking about the

3 experience obtained by the medical corps. Could you briefly respond to

4 that? It's not a forensic expert.

5 A. They have some general experience about what an entry and exit

6 wound looks like but that doesn't mean anything. They have to take care,

7 they have to treat the wound, but it is also their duty to describe these

8 wounds precisely. They have to describe the size of the wound as I

9 explained to Mr. President, they have to do this obviously this isn't done

10 immediately this is done at a later date.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think with your permission,

12 Ms. Pilipovic has one more question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You should do it quickly and we're running out of

14 tape and I said five more minutes so please, Ms. Pilipovic, one more

15 question.

16 Further examination by Ms. Pilipovic:

17 Q. Yes, Professor, yesterday you spoke about a document. My question

18 arises from one of the questions put to you by Judge El Mahdi with regard

19 to autopsies. The certificate that you interpreted with regard to

20 incident number 12, can you say -- incident number 11, can you say whether

21 an autopsy was performed and when can such a certificate be issued?

22 A. Such a certificate is issued when an external examination of the

23 body is carried out or when an autopsy is performed but from this document

24 we cannot obtain whether an autopsy was performed.

25 Q. I apologise this incident took place on the 7th of September, 1993

Page 19729

1 and the examination was the autopsy according to the certificate that you

2 examined was performed on the 9th of September 1993?

3 A. Yes, two days afterwards, that's customary.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes your testimony in this Court,

6 Professor Dunjic. One question for you is whether you would be willing to

7 leave your sketches behind so that if one of the parties would like to

8 have that in evidence then we could use it or -- it's your property, if

9 you want to take it.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, they are available for us. Then I'd like to

12 thank you very much for coming today. Mr. Usher, would you please collect

13 the --

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

16 The Hague and making your expertise available to this Chamber and

17 answering questions of both parties and of the Chamber. Thank you very

18 much for coming and I wish you to safe trip home again.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank you too, and I

20 would just like to add if it's necessary to perform an examination or

21 carry out exhumations I'm at your disposal, I am at the disposal of the

22 Defence, Prosecution, I'm at everyone's disposal. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Mr. Usher could you please

24 escort Professor Dunjic out of the courtroom. At the suggestion of Madam

25 Registrar, I suggest that we'll deal with the documents tomorrow. It's a

Page 19730

1 bit of -- there are some confusing but we'll sort them out. If the

2 parties would like to have a look at them again, they are available with

3 the registry in order to make up your mind whether you want to tender them

4 into evidence or have them marked for identification.

5 We'll then adjourn until 4.30.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.36 p.m.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19731












12 Pages 19731 to 19739 redacted private session














Page 19740

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session. May I invite you to

14 make the solemn declaration that you speak the truth the whole truth and

15 now but the truth. Could you please stand up and the text has been handed

16 to you by the usher.

17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much. Mr. Gray, please be

21 seated.

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it you, you will just be examined by counsel

23 for the Defence.

24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay, fine.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 19741

1 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gray. [In English] By THE way, did you hear

3 what I say, Mr. Gray?

4 A. Yeah, I said --

5 Q. Is everything all right? Do you have any difficulties in hearing

6 what I say?

7 A. No I'm fine.

8 Q. I speak French. Is that okay?

9 A. That's fine.

10 Q. You have the interpretation or the translation, can you hear me?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. [In French] If I'm speaking now in French, can you hear me in

13 English?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just wanted for the usher to

16 check that the interpretation channel is in English, please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please check that the channel is

18 at --

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, could you tell me, please, your date of birth?

22 A. The 30th of the 9th, '51.

23 Q. Very well, thank you. We know that you were a soldier and that

24 you were in Sarajevo?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

Page 19742

1 MR. IERACE: I wish to make a submission in the absence of the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Usher could you please -- we'll have

4 to -- there is a procedural issue the parties would like to address the

5 Chamber and that is usually done, if it relates to your testimony, in your

6 absence so may I ask you just to follow the usher for one second and to

7 leave the courtroom so that the parties could address the court as they

8 wish.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn it to private session or -- yes, we'll

11 turn it to private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19743












12 Pages 19743 to 19748 redacted private session














Page 19749

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, could you please tell us when you arrived in Sarajevo,

11 which year, which month?

12 A. I arrived in Sarajevo on the 10th of April, 1992.

13 Q. Thank you. And how long did you stay there?

14 A. I departed Sarajevo on the 20th of September, 1992.

15 Q. Thank you. During that entire period, did you ever leave

16 Sarajevo; yes or no?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Thank you. For how long, for what period of time and on how many

19 occasions?

20 A. I departed on two occasions and I would like to refer to my diary

21 to --

22 Q. Please go ahead. Please go ahead.

23 A. Okay. I will refer to my diary to actually get those actual

24 details. Okay.

25 Q. Witness --

Page 19750

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Ask the

2 witness to find that during the next break and, Mr. Gray, would you first

3 now concentrate again on other questions and may I invite you to look for

4 the date of departure from Sarajevo during the next break.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, fine.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Witness, I can see that you are wearing a number of medals for the

8 first time. I would appreciate if you could tell us why you are wearing

9 those medals very briefly?

10 A. That is the Order of the British Empire, operational service

11 medal.

12 MR. IERACE: Objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Relevance.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it's

16 very relevant given the matters that were raised a minute ago. I think

17 so.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber allows you to -- please continue.

19 You started with the Order of the British Empire.

20 A. Order of the British Empire, Operational Service Medal, Lebanon,

21 UNPROFOR, Long Service, Rhodesia.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, how is one awarded such medals?

24 A. By hard graft, by being there and doing what you're required to

25 do.

Page 19751

1 Q. Thank you. With regard to this matter, return to the subject of

2 Sarajevo, did you personally know General Galic while you were in

3 Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you meet him on more than one occasion?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us approximately how many times you met him, for

8 example, more than five or more than ten times, et cetera?

9 A. I met him on approximately every other day, I mean -- I mean I met

10 him on every other day.

11 Q. So we could say that you met him very frequently?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Since you saw him so frequently, what could you tell

14 us about his personality and I'm not referring to his military capacity,

15 I'm talking about the person himself?

16 A. He was a very personable, I mean a very pleasant person to meet

17 and talk with.

18 Q. Very well. You have said that he was a very pleasant person, what

19 do you mean by pleasant?

20 A. I mean that he was a nice person. I mean someone that you could

21 be friendly with. I mean a nice person, I mean someone -- someone who you

22 would have no fears about sharing your problems with or anything else like

23 that. He was a nice person -- is a nice person.

24 Q. Very well. Witness, I would now like to discuss matters that

25 concern humanity, I'm not talking about humanitarian matters. Did you

Page 19752

1 ever hear General Galic say anything that might have been unnecessarily

2 wounding to the other side? Did he ever say anything on a racist nature

3 with regard to the other side, et cetera?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you certain about that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, on the basis of your experience in Sarajevo

8 while you were there, can you tell us where you stayed?

9 A. Okay. I initially stayed in a hotel, then I moved from the hotel

10 and I -- I arranged for five apartments for the military observers who

11 were staying there. I did that, then we stayed in those apartments and

12 then on the --

13 Q. Stop you there, I apologise but we have to establish fairly

14 precise chronological order. What was the name of the hotel, if you can

15 remember?

16 A. It was I think the Mojmilo or something like that hotel. It was

17 Mojmilo hotel and then we moved into apartments and then on the -- when

18 the war started in Sarajevo which happened on the 14th of May, yeah, 14th

19 of May, that's the one. That's when the war started really in Sarajevo

20 and then on the 15th and 16th of May, we had to move out and we actually

21 moved into the PTT building and that's where we stayed.

22 Q. Thank you. Witness, would you be able to recognise the places

23 that you have just mentioned on a map? Could you recognise the PTT

24 building on a map, for example?

25 Witness, with the assistance of the usher and if the Chamber

Page 19753

1 allows us to do so, we are going to show you two parts of a map. It's

2 going to be handed down.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Mr. Gray, would you please wait until a map

4 has been presented to you and in order to avoid whatever confusion not use

5 any other map.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay. Fine.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, if you have to write something, if you would want to

9 write something, you have to do so by using a black pen for practical

10 reasons. The usher will provide you with one immediately. I hope it will

11 be -- I hope the tip will be fine enough?

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you only to mark anything on the map,

13 Mr. Gray, if you are invited to do so.


15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Gray, could you take what we call the pointer, first of all,

18 and could you point to the PTT building on the map? I don't know if the

19 technical booth could zoom in, perhaps, and focus on that now.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Thank you. Thank you. The witness pointed to the building to the

22 south of Miljacka, the so-called PTT building.

23 Witness, could you tell us where the first hotel in which you

24 resided was located and then could you point to the buildings that you

25 have mentioned, if you find these places on the map?

Page 19754

1 A. Yeah, okay. Sure, okay. This is the Rainbow hotel here.

2 Q. I'll stop you there, you mentioned the Mojmilo hotel would that be

3 the same one?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Or is it the Rainbow?

6 A. The Rainbow hotel is further to the west--

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just stop you, Mr. Gray.

8 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the ELMO could be zoomed back and the witness

9 be invited to indicate that position again so that we can follow it on the

10 screen. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please point again to where the hotel

12 was, Mr. Gray.

13 THE WITNESS: The Rainbow hotel?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Yes, please start with the Rainbow.

16 A. The Rainbow hotel is here.

17 Q. The witness pointed to the south of the main road close to a

18 spaghetti junction to the west next to the Oslobodjenje building. Could

19 you point to the flats that you had to find for your military observers?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Thank you. The witness pointed to the area known as Alipasino

22 Polje. Thank you.

23 Could you now take a black pen and mark with the number one, could

24 you mark the PTT building with number one?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 19755

1 Q. Thank you. And could you do the same thing for the Rainbow Hotel,

2 mark it with number two?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. And could you do the same thing for the approximate

5 location of the flats?

6 A. [Marks].

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for your guidance if you

8 invite the witness to mark on the map, it's not necessary to first tell us

9 very precisely what he points at because that's --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I know why I'm doing

11 this, Mr. President. Thank you very much.

12 Q. Witness, since we've been referring to these flats, could you

13 briefly tell us what your duties were in Sarajevo?

14 A. I was first in Sarajevo and I was brought to Sarajevo --

15 originally I was in Knin which is obviously away from Sarajevo. I was

16 brought to Sarajevo because of my experience -- whatever. And I was

17 brought there as the chief operations officer for the military observer

18 group in the whole of Yugoslavia.

19 Q. What was your rank at the time?

20 A. Lieutenant Colonel.

21 Q. What was your rank when you left Sarajevo?

22 A. Colonel.

23 Q. Thank you. So you were promoted in the interim period?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, you mentioned the PTT building. I have a

Page 19756

1 number of questions and we're going to focus on this geographical area of

2 the town. As far as you know, can you tell us whether the PTT building

3 had a basement?

4 A. Yes, it did.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. It had two sub-basements, two, not one, but two.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you describe both of these basements; yes or no?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you do so, please?

10 A. Okay. One sub-basement was a parking area and the second

11 sub-basement was an engineering workshop, it was -- I mean a full

12 engineering workshop. It was there, it had lathes, I mean I did metal

13 work at school -- okay. Sorry.

14 Q. I'll stop you there. I'm sorry. These two areas, we'll go back

15 to the workshop, were these two areas divided by a wall, by a barrier?

16 What separated these two areas?

17 A. Okay. I mean they were separated by, I mean, concrete floors so I

18 mean one was here and one was there. They were separated in terms of the

19 rest of the building by doors.

20 Q. Could you describe the doors, were they made of wood, of metal?

21 A. Well, on the 14th, 15th, 16th 17th of May, the doors were broken

22 and the doors were repaired later. I was very, very busy doing

23 negotiating with the parties but the doors were smashed in. They were

24 repaired and they had at the very top of the door a panel -- a glass panel

25 which had been broken, but this -- this plus the doors was totally

Page 19757

1 screened over, I mean it was -- metal was actually put over it so that no

2 one could see in.

3 Q. Thank you. You said that no one could see through, that

4 nevertheless, who was present in the interior, in the second part of the

5 basement, as far as you know? You spoke about a workshop, what do you

6 know about this?

7 A. The workshop which is shown on -- I mean -- it is on video so I

8 mean it's there. The workshop was used to produce weapons and repair

9 weapons.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: I have something to say in the absence of the

13 witness.

14 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do it differently. Mr. Gray, we are about to

16 have a break. We usually have two breaks in the afternoon. I'm aware

17 that you might not like it to go in and out of the courtroom, I hope that

18 then for the next hour we'll continue but we'll adjourn until five minutes

19 past 6.00 so we have a break. That's also for the interpreters because

20 they have to interpret whatever has to be said and they can't just go on

21 for hours and hours so that's one of the reasons why we at a certain

22 frequency have a break.

23 Mr. Usher, could you first escort Mr. Gray out of the courtroom.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, do we have to turn into private session?

Page 19758

1 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then turn into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19759












12 Pages 19759 to 19763 redacted private session














Page 19764

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again. The Chamber is aware

15 of the problems the Defence faces and as a consequence, the Prosecution

16 also faces and we'll ensure that the Prosecution will have extra time if

17 they -- if there is extra time is needed for a proper preparation of the

18 cross-examination of the witness and although we are in the late stage of

19 the proceedings, the Chamber will ensure that no unfairness, other than

20 inevitable, sometimes things are not for the full 100 per cent fair

21 because of reasons that are beyond the control of the parties and the

22 Chamber. That's part of life, I would say, but we'll -- we are fully

23 aware of the problems.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. In the meantime,

Page 19765

1 Mr. President, we availed ourself of the opportunity to link up with the

2 Prosecution but we'll see about it later.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, let us go back to the question of the PTT building and of

6 the second of those workshops that you spoke about before the break, those

7 locations. You mentioned that there was a workshop, what do you know

8 about it and what can you tell us about it, please?

9 A. Okay. The workshop itself was very extensive. It would have been

10 at least 100 metres long by 50 metres wide, I mean it covered the whole

11 basement of the PTT. It had heavy machinery in there, lathes, a lot of

12 welding machinery there. It was designed as a workshop to manufacture

13 material for the PTT.

14 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us now, at the time of your stay in

15 Sarajevo, how was this workshop used, for what purpose?

16 A. When the -- when we first arrived in Sarajevo, the -- we took over

17 the PTT building as the UN headquarters and so the workshop was not used

18 for anything at all. However, after the events of the 14th of May, and

19 then the 8th of June, and the withdrawal basically of the UN forces from

20 Sarajevo, and all -- all that was left behind were ten military observers

21 and 30 French soldiers, I mean that's all that was left after. There were

22 a couple of Swedish cooks but I mean that's all that was left.

23 We used the workshop area initially for a generator to actually

24 supply power to actually recharge the handy talkies that we had so we

25 could actually talk to each other and the bay stations so we could talk to

Page 19766

1 each other, for lighting, but that only lasted for about a week and then

2 we stopped and we moved the generator up into the car park and the

3 workshop area was then vacated and it then was taken over by the Bosnian

4 forces.

5 Q. Thank you. This workshop was taken over by the so-called

6 Presidency forces, but to what purpose, as far as you know, what did they

7 do there, practically speaking?

8 A. Okay. Well, I have a videotape which I provided for the Defence.

9 They repaired weapons there, they manufactured weapons there, they sealed

10 the doors so that no one could see in or -- I mean, see what they were

11 doing. They took in and removed, by night, weapons which they then used

12 to fire at the Serbs.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, you're telling us that the doors were sealed

14 in such a way that one could not see inside, but how were you able to find

15 out about this, about what was happening in that workshop?

16 A. Well, I have -- I have the videotape and also I know that I saw

17 vehicles coming and leaving at night to the workshop.

18 Q. And what did they offload or unload, if they were doing that?

19 What were these vehicles doing?

20 A. They were delivering materiel to be repaired, I mean, damaged

21 weapons and they were taking away repaired weapons and they were also

22 manufacturing other weapons.

23 Q. Thank you. Colonel, did you see this with your own eyes?

24 A. I saw the vehicles coming and going, but I didn't actually

25 see -- I mean -- I mean I wasn't invited in to actually see them

Page 19767

1 remanufacturing weapon -- I mean, no one -- I mean they kept us out of

2 there. I mean, the doors were padlocked, they were screened. You

3 couldn't see in and quite frankly, I had other things to do.

4 Q. Thank you. But my question is precisely as follows: Did you see

5 vehicles bringing arms, weapons, even ammunitions, bringing them there?

6 A. I saw vehicles that arrived. You have to understand that it was

7 an underground workshop so I mean it was -- it was underground. I mean

8 and I took refugees from the same place at a different level, but I

9 mean -- you have to understand that you couldn't see in. All I saw was I

10 mean vehicles arriving and departing. That's all.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, you speak to us about -- no, I withdraw that.

12 You speak to us about weapons. Can you tell us, if you were able

13 to see in the surrounding area of the PTT building anything else in

14 relation to weapons of one side or the other side?

15 A. Yes, I can. We had one incident where there were two tanks from

16 the Bosnian forces which were parked 50 metres away from the PTT building.

17 I went down by myself and I spoke to them and said, "You have to move

18 away," and they said, well, their commander was away at the Rainbow hotel

19 having lunch. The Rainbow hotel was approximately 400 metres away from

20 the PTT and they couldn't give me any answer until he came back.

21 So I went back and I got an interpreter and we went back again and

22 I said well, "unless you move your tanks, I'll have a Ukrainian company

23 come and they will move you one way or the other." And very shortly

24 thereafter, they did move the tanks away but they parked them by the PTT

25 for the reason that the PTT and the UN headquarters gave them protection.

Page 19768

1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us anything else, Colonel, in relation to

2 other types of weapons that you are able to observe around the PTT

3 building, to start with?

4 A. Not around the PTT.

5 Q. Thank you. Are there any other locations in Sarajevo where you,

6 yourself, physically saw weapons that belonged, of course, to the

7 so-called Presidency forces?

8 A. There were many locations that I saw weapons that belonged to the

9 Presidency forces.

10 Q. Could you, Witness, indicate these locations on the map which is

11 to your right? Sorry, to your left, my mistake.

12 If you could please leave the map on the ELMO in such a way that

13 we can see it. Thank you.

14 A. Here --

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


17 MR. IERACE: Given the period of time that this witness was in

18 Sarajevo, both before the indictment period and during the indictment

19 period, I would respectfully seek that in relation to this these

20 positions, it is made clear whether the periods relate to pre-indictment

21 or post-indictment.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's coming.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I do take it you ask the witness what he say and he

24 told us when he left Sarajevo, was it the 10th of September.

25 A. 20th September.

Page 19769

1 JUDGE ORIE: You arrived on the 10th.

2 THE WITNESS: 5th of April and I left on the 20th of September.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, could you please indicate, again, with the pointer, the

6 areas where you saw the weapons.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. I would be grateful if you can take a black felt-tip pen, please,

9 and if you can place number 4 on the location that you've just indicated.

10 A. [Marks]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could be

12 given a pen that actually works.

13 Q. Thank you. Just a moment, just a moment, witness. Okay. Thank

14 you. Could you tell us what did you see with your own eyes on the places

15 that are indicated first under number 4 and then under number 5?

16 A. Okay. Number 4, there were two tanks, okay, T55s and they were

17 parked in a tunnel, okay, one out of view or anything else. Okay, and

18 number 5, there was one tank and four APCs or armoured personnel carriers.

19 Q. Very well. I'm just going to interrupt you, Witness. The number

20 5 is located in a green area on the map which indicates, as we can see the

21 symbols, it's indicating a cemetery. Are you absolutely certain of the

22 position of these weapons in the cemetery in question?

23 A. Absolutely positive.

24 Q. Thank you. How come that you can be so certain of that, why is

25 that?

Page 19770

1 A. Because I saw them.

2 Q. Thank you. What were they looking for in terms of protection in

3 that area?

4 A. They were parked underneath trees, okay, for camouflage.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what was the time period when you saw

6 these weapons, I'm not talking about a specific date, but a month, was it

7 the beginning of your stay or the end, whatever?

8 A. It was at the time that we actually deployed our military

9 observers for the Papa side, the Presidency side, that was Papa, Lima was

10 the Serb side which was Lima was for Lukavica. That's what Papa and Lima

11 stood for. And we saw them at the time we actually deployed the military

12 observers to try and observe the weapons.

13 Q. Do you remember, witness, of the month, more or less, that you saw

14 that?

15 A. I can give you the day.

16 Q. Very well, even better, thank you.

17 A. Okay. Okay. No problem. Okay. Here we go. That was Lima side.

18 It would have been about the -- it would have been about the 3rd of July.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you have an opportunity to see these weapons later

20 during your stay in Sarajevo?

21 A. I saw them when we deployed the military observers. We deployed

22 them to --

23 Q. Don't write anything, please don't write anything for the moment.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. Can you just answer the question that I've asked? Did you have an

Page 19771

1 opportunity to see them -- to see these weapons later?

2 A. I saw them on at least two other occasions.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you locate, more or less in time, can you tell

4 us a month, was it in August, in September or still in July?

5 A. No, it was still in July.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you see other weapons in Sarajevo and, if

7 so, which ones?

8 A. Yes, I did. I saw 105 Howitzers, I saw 120-millimetre mortars,

9 82-millimetre mortars.

10 Q. You're going too fast for me, witness. Where were the weapons

11 that you have mentioned located? Let's start with the Howitzers.

12 A. Okay. The Howitzers were located up -- okay, let's get the right

13 map. I believe there, they were located there.

14 Q. Could you please point to the area, you're talking about the Hum

15 area; is that right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please take a black felt-tip pen and mark it

18 with number six.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. There's a very distinctive tower right next to where these guns

22 were.

23 Q. Thank you. You mentioned other weapons, could you repeat which

24 weapons you mentioned and tell us where they were located?

25 A. Okay. There were 120-millimetre mortars, 120-millimetre mortars,

Page 19772

1 okay, they were located at the stadium here.

2 Q. Mark that area with number seven, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you, and then ...

5 A. There were other weapons, I don't have the precise location but

6 they are basically located here.

7 Q. Could you mark that with number eight, please?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And tell us which weapon is concerned?

10 A. They were 120-millimetre mortars and 82-millimetre mortars.

11 Q. Thank you. Any other locations in the city, as far as you know?

12 A. There were many other locations, yes.

13 Q. Could you indicate some other locations that you can remember?

14 A. Do you want these in the city or do you want --

15 Q. I'm only talking about the interior of the part which was under

16 the control of the so-called Presidency forces, that is to say, I'm

17 talking about the Papa side?

18 A. Okay. No, I can't with any accuracy, I'm sorry.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you please tell us if you were -- I

20 apologise, I'll withdraw that.

21 Did you see any other mechanical means, any other mechanical

22 devices apart from tanks and APCs and fixed mortars?

23 A. My people, my observers observed vehicles, light trucks, which had

24 the top removed, they had them cut out and these were being used as mobile

25 mortar bases in order that they could fire and then leave and avoid the

Page 19773

1 retaliatory fire which would come from the Serbs.

2 Q. Colonel, you have mentioned retaliatory fire, is that also what we

3 call "counter-battery fire," that's a technical term that we sometimes

4 use?

5 A. That's true. That's absolutely true.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, why did the Presidency forces open fire like

7 this, in your opinion, if you know anything about this?

8 A. They opened fire in many cases with full knowledge that they would

9 receive counter-battery fire, but they did this with the full knowledge

10 that they would have full media attention when they did this.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


13 MR. IERACE: I object. The question invites this type of

14 speculation it's more appropriate for the witness to be asked what he

15 knows and that to be distinguished from what opinions he might have. But

16 the first thing what does he know.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Will you please ask for facts, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

18 rather than --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Q. Witness, who is Mr. Carrington?

21 A. Lord Carrington was the foreign secretary for the U.K.

22 Q. Very well. Who is Mr. Carrington, or rather Lord Carrington, if

23 we're talking about Sarajevo?

24 A. He was one of the many individual politicians who came to try and

25 bring some peace to --

Page 19774

1 Q. Thank you. The same question for Lord Owen?

2 A. Same thing.

3 Q. Witness, did you have any experience in Sarajevo with regard to

4 the arrival of one of these men in Sarajevo and if so, what could you tell

5 us about this experience, please?

6 A. Okay, this is a goody. Okay. We had a visit of Lord Carrington

7 on the 3rd of July, 1992. It wasn't a good day. I've got it on

8 videotape. We --

9 Q. Witness, we can talk about the date later, but can you just remind

10 us of the events, Lord Carrington arrived in Sarajevo, where were you,

11 what were you doing?

12 A. Okay. As the senior military observer, I was required to be in

13 presence when they met at the Presidency and you have to understand that

14 the meeting schedule was kept quite separate and so one side wasn't aware

15 of the timing of when the other side was meeting with the politician who

16 was in Sarajevo at the time to actually try and resolve the whole problem.

17 So what happened was that he had already gone and he'd met at the airport

18 the Serbian side and they'd been brought from Lukavica to actually have

19 that meeting.

20 There was then a delay and so he was 30 minutes late in actually

21 getting to the Presidency to meet the Bosnian Muslim, whatever, Presidency

22 side. They had very carefully placed out a cordon of police which

23 stretched down the opposite side from the Presidency and the police were

24 set at 10-metre intervals, et cetera.

25 We were told that he was late and that was fine, I mean it was UN

Page 19775

1 time, and then we were told he was coming. The police moved as I was

2 looking from the front of the Presidency, they were -- they moved from

3 left to right. Immediately after that, and while he was actually on his

4 way, two mortar bombs landed, 82-millimetre mortar bombs and I know the

5 difference between 82, 120, 122, 105, I've been through it, they landed

6 and they killed people and wounded people right there.

7 An ambulance arrived no longer than 30 seconds after the bombs had

8 landed. The police moved back. I was standing in the entrance with

9 liaison officers from the Bosnian Presidency. They actually moved inside

10 the building and left me standing outside the front, which I thought was

11 really nice, when the bombs actually landed because they knew they were

12 coming. It was quite deliberate, very premeditated and the thing is that

13 the Serbs had no idea, they had no visual contact with the actual impact

14 area, they didn't know what was happening.

15 Q. Witness, I apologise, I'll stop you there. You said the Serbs

16 didn't know, what can you tell us, for example, did you hear the shots

17 being fired, the shells being fired from mortars and if you did, what can

18 you tell us about this on the basis of what you have heard?

19 A. I've done, in my 30 years in the army, I've done a number of

20 courses, one of them was on heavy weapons, including mortars. I know

21 exactly, I mean, I fired them so I know precisely what a mortar sounds

22 like when it is fired, okay? It has a very distinctive sound, okay.

23 As I was standing outside the front door of the Presidency, I

24 heard the primary go off. The mortars were fired from less than 200

25 metres away.

Page 19776

1 Q. I'll stop you there, witness. We're not experts and this is why

2 I'm interrupting you. Could you briefly tell us what a primary is?

3 A. Okay. A mortar bomb has a primary which is in the very base of

4 the tailfin and then it has a number of charges which are put round the

5 side of it to actually add distance to it but if you fire a mortar just on

6 primary without any charges around it, then it will go a maximum of 200

7 metres.

8 Q. Thank you. So what did you conclude on the basis of the position

9 that was hit by the shells? What could you conclude with regard to the

10 origin of fire?

11 A. It had to come from the Presidency side, the Muslim side. It was

12 totally deliberate. It was premeditated murder.

13 Q. Witness, I asked you this series of questions because a minute ago

14 you spoke about media coverage. What could you tell us with regard to

15 this specific incident and as far as such media coverage is concerned?

16 A. Well, the media are obviously there already anyway to get all the

17 clips of Lord Carrington and whatever arriving so I mean they were there

18 anyway, but, I mean, it was all arranged for Carrington and the media.

19 Carrington drove through the slaughter, okay, and the ambulances

20 and everything else and all the sirens and whatever. I mean he drove

21 through all of that to come to the meeting. And by the way, while we

22 actually had the meeting which I attended myself, we had a few mortar

23 bombs land just for good effect.

24 Q. Witness, thank you. I'll come back to the issue of the -- of

25 media coverage but my question now is as follows: Were you personally

Page 19777

1 affected, as a man, by this experience?

2 A. Of course I was.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's turn to the issue of media coverage. You spoke

4 about shells being fired from mobile mortars and you told this Chamber

5 that this was done in order to obtain media coverage, you provided us with

6 a very specific example. Can you tell us what you heard in regard to fire

7 being opened from these mobile mortars. What did you hear in relation to

8 media coverage?

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. [In English] What do you mean?

11 A. What we had from the Papa side was reports from military observers

12 about these trucks, vans, light trucks, that were being used to fire

13 mortars indiscriminately at the Serb side and then obviously fire was

14 coming back from the Serbs.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have other

16 questions but we're running out of time. It's time to adjourn. Is it

17 time to adjourn before Mr. Ierace arises.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn for the day, Mr. Ierace, is there

19 anything that you would like to raise.

20 MR. IERACE: To save time for tomorrow, I notice the witness has

21 referred to a diary. We haven't been given a copy of that, wonder if it

22 could be produced. Perhaps to the registrar so we can have photocopy it.

23 I notice the witness referring to a map I don't know if it's a plain map

24 or a marked map but perhaps we could have a copy of that to save time for

25 tomorrow.

Page 19778

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we gladly use

2 our time to copy all the pages of these diary and to provide the

3 Prosecution with them in the course of the night. I have only just found

4 out about the existence of this diary but we need time to do this we

5 shouldn't -- if we're to copy all the documents, I don't know how many

6 pages there are, I can't do it now, perhaps tomorrow morning.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Will it be

8 possible, Madam Registrar, to even, if necessary, we might find someone,

9 perhaps not four persons, but we might find someone who will -- could do

10 it. We should be willing to give you a diary, I hope your handwriting is

11 such that we could read it so that we could see what is in it and so that

12 the parties could -- would you be willing to give it to the Chamber? Yes.

13 Thank you.

14 Then as far as the map is concerned, are there any markings on

15 this map.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, there is.

17 JUDGE ORIE: There will be any questions about the map.

18 THE WITNESS: I also have a trace which goes on the map.


20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given the time,

21 I don't think that there will be any questions about that map because in

22 order to save time, we're going to use one map alone but we could copy it

23 too.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But it's at least available to the parties would you

25 be willing to give us a copy of these maps.

Page 19779

1 THE WITNESS: Of course.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You will get the originals returned.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the registrar will assist with this

4 matter.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much, Madam Registrar. Then is

6 there anything else?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In order

8 to be able to work on this, I'd like to inform the registrar that we can

9 be reached at all times and if this work is completed even late at night,

10 you shouldn't hesitate to call us. We are at your disposal. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... The

12 Prosecution could be reached, Mr. Ierace; is that correct.

13 MR. IERACE: Sorry I didn't hear that, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that a telephone number is available to the

15 registry where the Prosecution could be reached this evening.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes.

17 Mr. President, in relation to the videotapes, I think my friend

18 wants them back tonight. I'm happy to do that but again it means that we

19 won't have a chance to look at them.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we need time. Is there no way of copying them?

21 I mean copying videotapes should not take necessarily the full time. I

22 think it's even called dubbing if you to do it at a quick speed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I asked the

24 technicians whether there was a possibility of doing this and they told me

25 that such a machine still has to be invented so if we have four times two

Page 19780

1 and a half hours or two hours, that's eight hours of copying that we are

2 faced with and this is a problem and I can't resolve it personally.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has the Defence been --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, in order to save time,

6 I allowed myself to question this witness about the contents of these

7 videos and the witness told me about certain events that should be of

8 interest to justice. We have filtered out some of these elements and I

9 actually saw one of the cassettes but not the others.

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Sit together

11 and look at a videotape together but it would save a lot of time, perhaps

12 divided by a little screen and looking at the same screen in front of you

13 but so you see some creativity in solving the problems.

14 Let's be aware, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that if you are provided at a

15 late stage with the video material that it does not only cause a problem

16 for you but for the Prosecution as well so we'll have to grant sufficient

17 time so therefore, I'm just wondering whether one could connect two video

18 monitors to one video recorder so you don't have to copy it but even in

19 separate rooms you could look at the same thing and perhaps first a going

20 through so that at least you know what is approximately there as images.

21 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, when I look at the video like

23 that, sometimes I want to stop and go back and check and so on. Another

24 solution which I suggested to my learned colleague is that if we can -- if

25 he can look at it in the building complex in the Defence room if they've

Page 19781

1 got a video machine available. While he's looking at one I can look at

2 another and we can swap them over.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So you can exchange if you don't look at them in

4 chronological order. May I really urge the parties to see how we can

5 prevent that -- the tomorrow or the day after tomorrow the Prosecution

6 could look at the videos. For adults it may be able to reach a solution.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, one of the

8 solutions comes to mind quite naturally is as follows: We have identified

9 in the first cassette things that to us appear as the most interesting

10 ones for the purposes of justice and what I suggest is to guide Mr. Ierace

11 and tell him that this is the cassette that we are really going to rely on

12 and I suggest that you view these parts. I will be faithful, trustworthy

13 to the very end and I won't provide a different version.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Legal

15 practice for too long time to ignore that sometimes the assistance and the

16 help of one party to the other could be interpreted by the other party in

17 a different way so let's try to -- if you try to look at these videos in

18 such a way that you look both at the same time, whether you guide each

19 other or not but we do not lose any time. If there's any remaining

20 problem, I will be available to the building to reconcile conflicting

21 positions for at least some time this evening so a practical solution

22 should be reached within the next hour I would say and I'm certainly still

23 there.

24 So if there's any need for my help, then please ask me.

25 Mr. Gray.

Page 19782


2 JUDGE ORIE: We have to stop for the evening.

3 THE WITNESS: I know, but can I say something about the

4 videotapes?


6 THE WITNESS: In order to interpret what you actually are seeing,

7 I need to be there.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Certainly if the videos will be played in court

9 and to the extent that they are not played, the Chamber is not aware of

10 its content but certainly you will be asked questions about it but the

11 parties should have the opportunity to see the whole of it.

12 THE WITNESS: Yeah, fine.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Even if there are things totally irrelevant on it,

14 but first the parties should look at it and certainly will put questions

15 to you in relation to the videos if they decide that they are relevant

16 enough to be played in this court.

17 We'll then adjourn. May I instruct you and could we please go

18 into private session for one second?

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19783

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn then until tomorrow at quarter past

8 2.00 Madam Registrar, I think in this same courtroom. I instruct you, Mr.

9 Gray, not to speak with anyone about your testimony you've given until now

10 or the testimony still to be given perhaps in the next day or two.

11 We'll adjourn until tomorrow in the afternoon, quarter past 2.00.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13 at 7.10 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday

14 the 19th day of February, 2003, at

15 2.15 p.m.