Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19876

1 Thursday, 20 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 4.02 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

6 Stanislav Galic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Unfortunately, we could

8 not start earlier since the initial appearance started with a considerable

9 delay. Therefore, we are suffering from the same technical problems.

10 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness, Mr. Gray, into the

11 courtroom.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Gray.

14 THE WITNESS: Hello.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We could start only a bit later because the previous

16 session -- started also late because of technical problems. May I remind

17 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given

18 at the beginning of your testimony.

19 Now, the Prosecution will resume its cross-examination.

20 Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.


23 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gray.

25 A. Hello, how are you.

Page 19877

1 Q. Because we both speak the same language, even the same

2 inflections --

3 A. Not quite.

4 Q. Not quite. A important distinction. I have been warned by the

5 interpreters to ensure that there is a pause between --

6 A. I understand.

7 Q. When we speak?

8 A. -- I understand.

9 Q. I must speak a --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could also the witness speak into the microphone.

11 MR. IERACE: And also into the microphone.

12 Q. Now, you've told us that you were in Sarajevo between the 10th of

13 April and the 20th of September, 1992. General MacKenzie was there

14 between the 13th of March, I think thereabouts, and the 25th of July,

15 1992; is that as you remember it?

16 A. No, that was broken in two different points. I mean he was there,

17 he may well have been there from 23rd of March but he actually withdrew

18 with the rest of the UNPROFOR headquarters on the 15th and 16th of May and

19 then came back again later.

20 Q. And he was away, I think, at that stage for some three weeks in

21 Belgrade; is that correct?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. I'll come back to that. I think you were there at that period as

24 well, at that stage as well?

25 A. No.

Page 19878

1 Q. Is that correct?

2 A. I was still there in --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could there be a break please between question

4 and answer?

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I again remind you, Mr. Gray, to just have a

6 short break before starting to answer the question.



9 Q. Apart from breaks in his tenure in Sarajevo, is it your

10 understanding that he arrived for the first time in mid-March and left

11 towards the end of July for the last time?

12 A. I have the understanding that he -- I don't know when he actually

13 arrived there, I have no idea of that. He was there when I arrived there

14 and then he left and then he came back and yes, he did leave in the end of

15 July.

16 Q. Okay. Now, was your immediate superior Colonel John Wilson?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And did you understand that he had been in Sarajevo also from

19 mid-March 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did he leave around the 24th of June, 1992?

22 A. Yes, he did. He left at I think 1400 hours on the 24th.

23 Q. All right. Now, I notice you've got a document that you've pulled

24 out of your briefcase, can you just tell us what type of document that is?

25 A. That is a sitrep which is signed by Brigadier John Wilson, he was

Page 19879

1 promoted, and it was a situation report of what was happening and what had

2 happened to me in Sarajevo.

3 Q. Could I just have a quick look at that document?

4 When you say it's a sitrep, is that --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is the -- is the Defence aware of the

6 content of the document?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know. I do not know

8 this document. I think that for courtesy we should also be shown that

9 document.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Certainly for courtesy but also for trial reasons.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it's a four-page document.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I got the impression that you would like to

13 ask a question about the document and then I think it would be proper that

14 the Defence has had an opportunity at least to look at what the document

15 is.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Well, I'll pass it to the court

17 orderly now.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would first give an opportunity also in

19 time to the Defence to just briefly inspect for the document as well.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly.

21 Q. All right. Now, --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please wait. I

23 need to see what the document is about. Thank you, in advance.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Questions about a

25 document, I can imagine that Mr. Ierace puts the next question to the

Page 19880

1 witness if it's not about the document. Perhaps he will ask no questions

2 at all about the document then you will have a further opportunity to look

3 at it.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President,

5 because I do not know whether what Mr. Ierace has just discovered can be

6 used -- can be useful to him. We need to -- and before I read the

7 document I cannot look at the transcript, listen to what Mr. Ierace is

8 saying and read the document at the same time. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Was your next question in any way influenced by

10 knowledge of the document?

11 MR. IERACE: No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: In that view, please proceed.


14 Q. Mr. Gray, I want to ask you some questions about the history of

15 the PTT building and --

16 A. Sure.

17 Q. -- The UN mission. And I appreciate that these questions predate,

18 in part, your time in Sarajevo. Was it your understanding that when the

19 UN came to Sarajevo, the reason was to establish a base for the operation

20 of the UN forces in Croatia?

21 A. True.

22 Q. At that stage, and I'm referring to March 1992, there was no

23 mission, no mandate to get involved in the affairs of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. True.

25 Q. The only reason that Sarajevo was selected was because it was a

Page 19881

1 safe distance from the conflict in Croatia and there was a major airport;

2 was that your understanding?

3 A. It was a serious mistake.

4 Q. We'll leave that to one side for a moment, whether it was --

5 A. But yes, that is why it happened.

6 Q. And if you can keep in mind to wait for a few seconds before you

7 answer.

8 Now, was it your understanding that when General MacKenzie arrived

9 in mid-March that the first building utilised by those UN forces was the

10 Holiday Inn hotel, that was the very first place that was used?

11 A. True.

12 Q. And thereafter, at some stage thereafter, the Bosnian government

13 made available to the UN the PTT building?

14 A. True.

15 Q. And the PTT building was effectively a government technical

16 facility that supported the telephone industry; is that your understanding

17 of what its function was, at least prior to the conflict in Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes, it was and it was very technical.

19 Q. Did it have a five-storey tower connected to a three storey

20 building and a number of subfloors including a bunker and a parking lot?

21 A. True.

22 Q. Indeed, did all government buildings or at least most have a

23 bunker as a legacy from the days of the former Yugoslavia in terms of

24 defensive -- Defence requirements?

25 A. In terms of the cold war, most buildings, large buildings,

Page 19882

1 apartment buildings in Sarajevo had subbasements and they also had

2 generators there as well.

3 Q. Yeah. Now, --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I can remind you to stop to make a break. I know

5 it's difficult, you easily forget about it but for the interpreters, it's

6 a very difficult task.


8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


10 Q. So the last thing on anyone's mind when the PTT building was

11 selected was that its role would be anything like what it became; is that

12 your understanding?

13 A. That would be true.

14 Q. And that means that its position in relation to what ultimately

15 became the warring factions, its position in relation to the confrontation

16 lines clearly could not have been a consideration at the time that it was

17 allocated and accepted by the UN -- allocated to and accepted by them?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. You've told us that there was a workshop in the PTT building and

20 would it be fair to say that when it was first occupied by the UN, there

21 could be no reasonable complaint about that engineering facility being

22 used by the government, by the Presidency at that stage, being

23 pre-conflict?

24 A. There was no one actually using the workshop. I mean when the UN

25 took over the PTT building, the building apart from a few administrative

Page 19883

1 workers had been totally vacated. There were no engineering staff at all

2 in the workshop area.

3 Q. Okay. When you say apart from a few administrative workers, were

4 they workers involved with the UN or with government business, Bosnian

5 government business?

6 A. They were a part of the PTT.

7 Q. Now, in terms of the Rainbow hotel, is it your understanding that

8 that was initially an old people's home about 800 metres west of the PTT

9 building built, but not occupied, that was made available by the Bosnian

10 government authorities to the UN for accommodation?

11 A. It was actually vacated, it was actually occupied. It had staff

12 in it. And it was vacated in order that the UN occupy it.

13 Q. When you arrived on the 20th of April, was it already occupied by

14 the UN?

15 A. It was the 10th of April, and yes, it was occupied.

16 Q. And in particular, was it occupied or allocated for offices with

17 the rank of major and below?

18 A. True.

19 Q. That all changed when Sarajevo went the same way as Croatia,

20 didn't it?

21 A. I'm sorry, you need to clarify your question.

22 Q. In relation to the appropriateness of the PTT building and the

23 Rainbow hotel, cast in the light of the conflict that broke out, the

24 appropriateness of those buildings was a different answer -- different

25 question, I should say.

Page 19884

1 A. Yes, it definitely changed and you need to also take into account

2 the buildings which were up in -- they were up in around Hrasnica.

3 Q. Are you referring to other UN buildings?

4 A. Yes, where the seen your staff was based but when the conflict

5 started, the whole situation changed.

6 Q. And suddenly the UN found itself --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you also for pauses and breaks.

8 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

9 Q. And suddenly within the space of a few months, the UN found itself

10 with its headquarters a matter of metres, 50 metres, perhaps, from the

11 confrontation lines, would that be correct?

12 A. No, it wouldn't. We found the UN headquarters was approximately

13 400 metres from the confrontation line.

14 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown the map that he had

15 yesterday, the Defence map.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That is 1845. It consists of two parts and I take

17 it -- yes, Madam Registrar. I take it that the westerly part is needed.

18 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

19 Q. Would you please point to the closest part of the confrontation

20 line to the PTT as of the 20th of September, 1992 and could we have the

21 ELMO zoom in on that position as the witness holds the pointer. Perhaps

22 we can zoom in a little closer.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. All right. Now you have placed the pointer on point nine, that is

25 the student hostel.

Page 19885

1 A. It also includes the apartment building that I actually occupied

2 which is here. Can you see that?

3 Q. Yes. You now have the pointer --

4 A. Okay. That was the front line, okay? The student building and my

5 apartment building and the buildings that were occupied or were occupied

6 by military observers are here. They're right here. That was the front

7 line.

8 Q. All right. Just pause for a minute. The witness indicates

9 Ante Babicka Street and moves the pointer along that street between point

10 9 and a distance south of point 3. Now, was there a no man's land from

11 that part of the front line to the Bosnian Serb positions?

12 A. Yes, there was. There was a no man's land which existed in this

13 area here between where I indicated before and Nedzarici.

14 Q. Are you familiar with the building complex as the school for the

15 blind or the home for the blind?

16 A. No, I'm not.

17 Q. Would you please take your pen and --?

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President might I be reminded whether it's black

19 or blue?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's blue, Mr. Ierace.


22 Q. And would you mark, according to the best of your recollection?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, may I ask you only to use the pen handed

24 out to you by the usher. I see that we are using different colours for

25 markings made on request of the defendant. Yes, please.

Page 19886


2 Q. To the best of your recollection, firstly the most forward front

3 line position of the Presidency forces in the vicinity of the PTT.

4 Would you please indicate with the pen and draw where that line

5 went north of what you have already marked?

6 A. It's very difficult because the line was so irregular, I mean it

7 went something like -- because Papa 7 was --

8 Q. Please stop for a moment. Please stop.

9 A. Sorry.

10 Q. Let me focus your attention back on position number 9. Do you

11 remember where that front line continued from the most northwards, most

12 northerly position that you have so far marked. If you don't, just let us

13 know.

14 A. Well, I mean it went straight, basically north from there.

15 Q. All right. Now, would you please mark the most forward Bosnian

16 Serb positions opposite the front line position you've already drawn for

17 the Presidency forces as of the 20th of September, 1992. And do you say

18 that -- well, firstly, would you describe the area between the two front

19 lines as no man's land?

20 A. Yes, I would.

21 Q. All right. Now, would you draw a line around Nedzarici

22 from -- starting from - if it's appropriate - the forward positions of the

23 Bosnian Serb forces?

24 A. [Marks]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we shall

Page 19887

1 have to go back -- we shall have problems later on to find these lines,

2 perhaps we should have that explained somehow, in some way.

3 MR. IERACE: I'll do that, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


6 Q. Would you please place the initials or the initial P alongside the

7 line indicating the forward position of the Presidency forces?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Would you now place the letter S alongside the forward positions

10 for the Bosnian Serb forces. Before you do that -- all right.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Would you now place an N alongside the line indicating the

13 boundary of Nedzarici.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Now, the -- that line runs from one yellow road to another. Do

16 the yellow roads mark the remaining boundaries of Nedzarici?

17 A. No, Nedzarici was never bounded by the two yellow lines or the two

18 yellow roads.

19 Q. No, I'm pointing -- I had in mind the yellow roads further to the

20 west and north, the airport road, I think it is?

21 A. Yes, west and north, yes, definitely.

22 Q. All right. Were they the other boundaries --

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. Remember the pause. Could you take your pen and indicate that

25 section of road which completes the boundaries of Nedzarici.

Page 19888

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you for that. Now, yesterday, you told us that you have

3 some video footage of the Bosnian Serb -- or the barracks in Nedzarici.

4 Would you please outline those barracks? You have taken off the first map

5 and put on it another map.

6 A. I have.

7 Q. Firstly, what is the map you have now placed on the ELMO? Where

8 did that map come from?

9 A. The map was provided by General Zivanovic who was the very first

10 Serb commander who I dealt with in terms of the airport agreement, opening

11 the airport and the first agreement for the concentration of weapons.

12 Q. All right. Now, are you able to indicate the position of the

13 barracks on the first map?

14 A. No, I can't, because it's not on it. It's off the map.

15 Q. When you say it's --

16 A. It's off the map, it's down here somewhere.

17 Q. Just wait for a minute, if you would. Are you consulting this map

18 in order to find the barracks in Lukavica?

19 A. I am.

20 Q. All right. I asked you if you could locate the barracks in

21 Nedzarici.

22 A. Nedzarici, I can find those, yeah, no problem.

23 Q. Well put the --

24 A. Okay, we'll put the other one back. I'm sorry. I thought you

25 were talking about the barracks in Lukavica. Okay. The barracks in

Page 19889

1 Nedzarici are down there.

2 Q. Would you please take the blue pen and draw on the map the outline

3 of the barracks for Nedzarici?

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Now, if I could just clarify something you said yesterday, on the

6 video, you told us there was some footage of the barracks at Nedzarici?

7 A. True.

8 Q. Is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Now, as of -- I withdraw that.

11 Did you know a building --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Ierace, could the witness put a B next to

13 where he indicated the barracks were.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]


16 Q. Inside the symbol, thank you.

17 Now, do you know of a building in Nedzarici known as the school of

18 theology?

19 A. It was just there.

20 Q. Did you ever go there?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Would you place --

23 A. It was used as a hospital.

24 Q. Would you place a cross indicating the position and alongside the

25 cross, capital letter T.

Page 19890

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. How many times did you visit that building complex?

3 A. Once.

4 Q. Do you remember when that was and if you don't --

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. When was that? You said you remember and now you are reaching for

7 a document in your briefcase. Before you look at the document, can you

8 tell us if you remember or not?

9 A. No, I do remember it but I just need to actually refer to the

10 date. We're talking about something that happened 11 years ago.

11 Q. My question was: Do you remember when that was?

12 A. It was the same night that the --

13 Q. Please wait. And you told us you did remember. Can you please

14 wait, sir, and not look at the document.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. The

16 witness was about to explain why he was remembering and how he was

17 remembering, he was saying "the same night as" and he was interrupted.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but at the same time, the witness tried

19 to -- Mr. Gray, may I ask you -- sometimes you will first be asked whether

20 you remember something and sometimes if you have no clear recollection on

21 details there might be other sources to refresh your recollection.


23 JUDGE ORIE: -- And certainly if you say, "I remembered that it

24 was a certain day when this or that happened, but I do not know the exact

25 date," please tell us and in the next questions, further clarification

Page 19891

1 will be sought by the parties. So --

2 THE WITNESS: Can I ask to actually refer to my documents?

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact that you will first be

4 asked whether you still know it and no one will be surprised after 11

5 years that you would not know specific dates, and then if it's of

6 importance to know even if it's not in your recollection but you have

7 sources available, that would allow you to reconstruct what date it was,

8 you'll certainly be asked by the parties and then, having asked to do so,

9 you may consult whatever you'd like to consult as long as you indicate

10 what you are consulting.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Would it be fair to say that you don't remember the date that you

15 could refresh your memory from the document?

16 A. True.

17 Q. What type of document is it?

18 A. It is my witness --

19 Q. Statement?

20 A. -- Statement that I gave.

21 Q. Please do. And could you tell us on what page of the statement

22 that appears?

23 A. Will do when I find it.

24 Q. If you are looking for a reference to Nedzarici, could I direct

25 you to page 6, the entry for the 18th of May.

Page 19892












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 19893

1 A. That's not it. That's not it. It's later on.

2 Q. To save time, would you mind looking at that during the first

3 break and --

4 A. Yeah, no, fine, no problem, but I know it's in here.

5 Q. I'll ask you about it when we return.

6 A. Yeah, no problem.

7 Q. You said that it was used as a hospital, by whom?

8 A. No, the Serbs had a temporary -- it was like a -- in military

9 terms we would call it a regimental aid post, okay? It was an RAP. They

10 could only do very primary things on that and in order to get their

11 casualties who were more seriously wounded they had to take them from

12 there through machine-gun alley, from Nedzarici to Ilidza where Ilidza had

13 a better medical facility.

14 Q. All right and did they use an APC for that purpose?

15 A. No, they didn't have any in Nedzarici. They didn't have any

16 armoured vehicles. There were no armoured vehicles in Nedzarici.

17 Q. What weaponry did you see in Nedzarici?

18 A. Small arms and that's all. Small arms and that is all.

19 Q. No mortars?

20 A. No.

21 Q. No tanks?

22 A. No.

23 Q. No APCs?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How many times did you visit Nedzarici?

Page 19894

1 A. I went there at least three times.

2 Q. Was there an observation post, a UN observation post in Nedzarici?

3 A. No, but I was trying to arrange one and that was part of

4 the -- what I call the second agreement to actually concentrate all

5 weapons and that's why they actually redecorated, I mean repainted and

6 redecorated and showed me the kitchen and whatever for the observers to

7 actually occupy the quarters.

8 Q. Whereabouts was the observation post to be if it was set up?

9 Which quarters?

10 A. It was going to be in the barracks at the highest point.

11 Q. How many people were living in Nedzarici, let's say, by September,

12 1992?

13 A. I have no real idea.

14 Q. I take it there were a number of Bosnian Serb troops?

15 A. Yes, there were.

16 Q. Combatants?

17 A. Yes, there were.

18 Q. Did you ever see any civilians in Nedzarici?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Looking at the map, and accepting, for the moment, that the blue

21 grids are a kilometre square, would it be fair to say that Nedzarici was

22 less than one kilometre at its widest point?

23 A. It would be very close to one kilometre. I think it would be

24 slightly wider. I mean in terms of east to west, it would probably be

25 only probably a kilometre but from north to south it would probably be 1.5

Page 19895

1 kilometres.

2 Q. Would you agree that Nedzarici was strategically important from

3 the perspective of the Bosnian Serb forces?

4 A. Yes, I would.

5 Q. You told us yesterday that it received quite a pounding by

6 Presidency forces. How was it if they only had small arms, did not even

7 have mortars, let alone any form of armoured vehicles that they could

8 resist such force?

9 A. I'm sorry, can I ask you, did you review the videotapes and did

10 you see the tanks which were knocked out on the way to the airport? Did

11 you see those tanks?

12 Q. I'd like you to answer the question, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's -- in general terms, Mr. Gray, you're first

14 required to answer the question and if you'd like to make reference to a

15 video you're aware of that exists, you can do so. And I think you may

16 assume that the parties have, as good as they could, viewed the videos you

17 presented.

18 THE WITNESS: I'm very sorry.

19 The pounding that happened in Nedzarici happened basically from

20 Stup, from 122, I mean I was there and I told you that yesterday, they

21 were from 122 Howitzers from the Croats. Okay. They came very clearly

22 from -- and I can indicate on the map, Stup is here, we have Nedzarici

23 here, okay. The Croat commander, okay, I can -- I can even show you

24 probably the house that he actually lived in.

25 Q. Please wait a minute. Regardless of where that particular

Page 19896

1 pounding came from --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Mr. President, the witness answered and gave

3 precise indications, I think for the transcript it would be important to

4 indicate clearly what he has pointed to on the map.

5 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I think we know Mr. Stup is and

6 I think we know where Nedzarici is.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness pointed to where on the map it's

8 indicated Stup and in general terms if we are talking about specific

9 places, buildings, et cetera, this should certainly be indicated on the

10 map or precisely described. If in more general terms we are referring for

11 example to bring -- then it's not under all circumstances necessary to

12 point out where exactly it was. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


14 Q. Regardless of who carried out that particular barrage of shelling,

15 would not the Presidency forces have capitalised on the effects of that

16 barrage and moved in on Nedzarici if there was no significant resistance

17 left, they would not stand idly by, would they?

18 A. No they tried to and they lost a lot of casualties and it's very

19 important that -- I mean I spoke to the Serbian commander who was in

20 command of Nedzarici and they found amongst the bodies of the Muslims

21 forces that were killed in that attack, they found people with -- I'm

22 sorry, dark skin, and dark-skinned people don't live in the former

23 Yugoslavia. They don't live there. They were mercenaries or they were

24 volunteers, they were from a different country and they were found in no

25 man's land and I can show you exactly where --

Page 19897

1 Q. Stop for a minute. Please stop. Why do you mention that? Why in

2 response to the question I asked you and I invite you to read that

3 question on the screen, do you offer to this Trial Chamber that amongst

4 the bodies of the Muslims, quoting your words, Muslim forces, they found

5 people with dark skin? Why is that so important for you to mention? What

6 are you trying to tell us?

7 A. I'm trying to tell you that the Presidency forces had

8 reinforcements from other countries and that they were not Yugoslavs.

9 Q. Have you reread the question I asked you? If not, please do.

10 A. I will do.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps before

12 the witness answers, I want to object. I think it would be good,

13 according to the custom, that Mr. Ierace checks first what the knowledge

14 and information of the witness is and to find out whether what he can

15 offer about this.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... If you would

17 object to that question, then you should have done it at that time and not

18 after the answer given and after the next question of Mr. Ierace.

19 Mr. Ierace is now moving to, at least is putting new questions to

20 the witness in respect of the answer the witness has given and it's now

21 not the moment to object. And apart from that, Mr. Ierace only asked the

22 question to read the question. I didn't hear him say that he would like

23 to have again an answer on the question.

24 Please proceed.


Page 19898

1 Q. That answer has nothing to do with the question I asked you, does

2 it?

3 A. Can you repeat the question?

4 Q. No, you can read it.

5 A. I can't.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I will read the question again. I will put the

8 question to you, Mr. Gray.

9 The question was and it might not be on your screen anymore,

10 but -- the question was: "Regardless of who carried out that particular

11 barrage of shelling, would not the Presidency forces have capitalised on

12 the effects of that barrage and moved in on the territory if there was no

13 significant resistance left, they would not stand idly by, would they?"

14 And after having repeated this question as put to you by Mr. Ierace, the

15 question you are asked to answer is whether your mentioning of people from

16 outside the former Yugoslavia and that was part of your answer relates in

17 any way to what you were asked about?

18 THE WITNESS: I apologise.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a matter of apologising. It's just

20 Mr. Ierace seeks your answer to the question whether you answered related

21 to what he asked you so --

22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, the Muslims would have, if they could

23 have, but on the videotape that you have, the Court has, you can quite

24 clearly see two tanks, you can see a lot of tank rounds, you can see the

25 effort that the Presidency side put in.

Page 19899

1 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, Mr. Gray, you are now answering

2 the question that I read to you, but the next question to you was whether

3 the answer you initially gave to that question in which you mentioned that

4 people with the black -- dark skin were found, whether that answer that

5 you gave relates in whatever way with the question put to you.

6 THE WITNESS: It does relate to the question put to me because the

7 Presidency forces used what I would call irregular or mercenary forces in

8 order to try and take Nedzarici. They were killed, they were found on the

9 field of battle, they were recovered, they were buried from the field of

10 battle and if the Presidency force could have taken Nedzarici, then they

11 would have, but they didn't have sufficient forces to do so.

12 MR. IERACE: We'll come back to that.

13 Q. In the meantime, will you please take out your statement and turn

14 to page 6.

15 A. I have it.

16 Q. Okay. The third paragraph, does that commence with the date 18

17 May?

18 A. True.

19 Q. All right. I'll read it out, please follow it and check that I am

20 reading it correctly. "18 May was a busy day. The generator house at the

21 Rainbow hotel took a direct hit. The Bosnians had snipers in the

22 newspaper building next to the Rainbow hotel shooting at the Serbs. The

23 Serbs return fire was hitting the rainbow hotel. I met the men who had

24 been shelling the apartment building where I was living. He was the

25 deputy commander of the Serbs in Nedzarici. He came out with one of his

Page 19900

1 lieutenants and spoke to me outside the Rainbow hotel."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read not too quickly, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. "He admitted firing mortars at

4 the apartments I lived in because that was now the front line. He spoke

5 excellent English."

6 Q. Did I correctly read that paragraph?

7 A. Yes, you did.

8 Q. Did you sign the statement?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Was what I read out at the time you signed the statement the

11 truth?

12 A. Absolutely.

13 Q. Have you forgotten about the mortars?

14 A. I have not forgotten about the mortars and I have not forgotten

15 about the fire that was coming from the apartment buildings that I was

16 living in, that was going towards the Serbs.

17 Q. Do you not think it is contradictory on the one hand to say that

18 the Bosnian Serb forces in Nedzarici had no mortars and on the other hand,

19 to say that on the 18th of May, 1992, their deputy commander admitted to

20 you that he was responsible for firing mortar shells at the place where

21 you lived?

22 A. I think you may have a point, but I think that the mortar shells

23 more probably came from Ilidza which is just a very small distance away

24 from Nedzarici.

25 Q. Please stop for a minute. Are you now telling us that you think

Page 19901

1 he lied when he said to you that he had fired the mortars or are you

2 saying that he directed mortar fire from a mortar battery at Ilidza?

3 A. It could have been either position because they were both in range

4 of where the apartment buildings were. They were both in range.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, General Galic, you are standing.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President, I

7 would like to confer with my lawyers, please, now.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then stop for a while and give an opportunity.

9 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I ask for another 30

11 seconds of patience? Thank you very much.

12 Mr. President, I have a belated objection. It is belated but I'm

13 going to be very clear. Mr. Ierace's question was as follows and exactly.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wonder whether this should be in the

15 presence of the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is this something --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness can hear this. He

18 can hear this because it has to do with the question that was asked by Mr.

19 Ierace and I seem to have already -- Mr. Ierace's question was: Did you

20 see Nedzarici and so on and so forth. "See," it is very precise. He is

21 being asked very precisely, did you see the mortars and then he talks and

22 then he is trapped because he says something else he says that he never

23 saw those mortars.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That should not have been discussed in the presence

25 of the witness.

Page 19902

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly then I will speak

2 later.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I ask you whether it was something you said it was no

4 problem you were discussing the whole matter in the presence of the

5 witness which is not appropriate.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, my apologies.

7 Very well. May I continue in the absence of the witness? May I continue

8 in the absence of the witness?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll ask the witness to leave the courtroom.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President, I

12 believe to have said that a few hours ago or perhaps yesterday that one

13 needed to respect certain rules. The question on page 17, line -- also 17

14 so it's 17, 17 was as follows: [In English] [Previous translation

15 continues]... In Nedzarici [Interpretation] And after that about mortars

16 and the witness answered no and he said that he had been to Nedzarici only

17 three times and then a trap is being set because a commander tells him

18 that he admitted to him that he had fired but in his written statement he

19 doesn't say that he saw these mortars and then he refers to a

20 contradiction which doesn't really exist and he raises this with the

21 witness when the witness said very clearly one is attempting to interpret

22 it in the sense which is opposite to what the witness said. So this is my

23 objection and I really find that this manner of work absolutely does not

24 agree, is completely at variance with accepted rules. Thank you very

25 much.

Page 19903

1 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that the witness, as far as I understand

2 his answers, did not make that distinction. Where he said, "you've got a

3 point and I think they might have been fired from somewhere else" and the

4 problem is that the witness started saying that they did not have certain

5 things and then the next question was: What did you see? Yes. We'll

6 clarify the issue. The witness may be brought in again. It was not

7 appropriate to deal with it in the presence of the witness,

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. On the other hand, I do agree with you that the

9 contradiction as put by Mr. Ierace to the witness was not as firm as it

10 perhaps at first sight looked like. I'll try to clarify the issue and

11 we'll proceed.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respond to that?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I should have given you an opportunity to

14 respond.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, while the contradiction put to the

16 witness is not as firm as it at perhaps first sight might look, the

17 witness in his explanation allowed for another possibility and that was

18 acknowledged by me in the follow-up question. So my point is where is the

19 confusion, where is the misunderstanding on the part of the witness?

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think I made already an observation on that. I

21 said that from the answers of the witness, he -- it seems that there was

22 no confusion. I'll ask the usher to bring the witness into the courtroom

23 again.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, may I ask you for some clarification? You

Page 19904

1 told us earlier this afternoon that the Serb -- that in Nedzarici, that

2 they had not have any armoured vehicles. There were no armoured vehicles

3 in Nedzarici. You are then subsequently asked what weaponry did you see

4 in Nedzarici and you said: "Small arms and that's all." Small arms and

5 that's all. You were then asked, "no mortars?" Your answer was no. You

6 were then asked, "no tanks?" Your answer was no. And then you were

7 asked, "no APCs?" And your answer was no.

8 By saying no, did you intend to say that you just didn't see

9 mortars or tanks or APCs in Nedzarici or that they were not there.

10 THE WITNESS: Sir, that is exactly what I am saying. I am saying

11 that I physically did not see them in Nedzarici.

12 JUDGE ORIE: They might have been there --

13 THE WITNESS: They may have been there but I physically did not

14 see them.


16 Q. Mr. Gray, does that apply to APCs as well that they could have

17 been in Nedzarici but you did not see them?

18 A. They could have been there but I did not see them.

19 Q. When was the last time that you visited Nedzarici approximately?

20 A. I'm sorry, I need to refer to my notes to actually --

21 Q. We'll come back to that.

22 A. I need to find that.

23 Q. The commander admitted to you, that is, the deputy commander of

24 the Serbs in Nedzarici that he was shelling your apartment building and

25 his explanation was that he did so because that was now the front line?

Page 19905

1 A. That's true.

2 Q. Who else lived in the Rainbow hotel at that stage?

3 A. At that stage there were still UN people living in the Rainbow

4 hotel.

5 Q. What further explanation, if any, did he give as to why he was

6 mortaring the Rainbow hotel, apart from the fact that he regarded it as

7 the front line?

8 A. There was no explanation given. None.

9 Q. Did you think that it was legitimate for him to shell the Rainbow

10 hotel at that stage?

11 A. If you look at the difference in range between the apartments

12 where I was living and the actual Rainbow hotel, you'll find that the

13 difference is very -- it's only about 200 metres. And the -- mortars are

14 not precise weapons, they are an area weapon. They will not land

15 within -- unless you fire them from a very short range, they are not a

16 precise weapon.

17 Q. All right. Who else lived in the apartment block where you lived,

18 if anyone?

19 A. I can tell you the names of my neighbours, if you like.

20 Q. That's okay. Approximately how many people were there living in

21 that building at that stage?

22 A. There were hundreds.

23 Q. Did you think it appropriate that your apartment building should

24 have been shelled at that stage, and by appropriate, I mean legitimate?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

Page 19906

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It has -- the objection has

3 to do with the answer that was given to the previous question by the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You previously answered a question by saying that a

6 mortar was an imprecise weapon, did you mean to say at that time that you

7 considered the shell or shells hitting the place where you were living as

8 a result of imprecise targeting, that it was not your building that was

9 being targeted.

10 THE WITNESS: No, the building was definitely targeted because

11 there was fire coming from the building, machine-gun fire coming from my

12 building towards the Serbs.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you may proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. And did this building have hundreds of civilians living in it?

16 A. Yes, it did it also had -- and on the videotapes, you can see

17 armoured personnel carriers from the Presidency forces moving around

18 exactly next to my apartment building -- I mean, right outside my front

19 door, you can see an armoured personnel carrier and the building was

20 occupied not only with civilians but also with Presidency forces who were

21 firing at the Serbs.

22 Q. Approximately how many storeys did that being have?

23 A. Eight, I think, eight or nine.

24 Q. And approximately how far was it from the front line position of

25 the Serb forces? I withdraw that question.

Page 19907

1 Could you point to the apartment building in question? That is

2 the position on the map?

3 A. Just going to show it?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. My apartment building was here, there it is there.

6 Q. Did it front on to, that is did it front on to directly on to

7 Ante Babicka Street that is the yellow road to left of the number three

8 running in a north-south direction?

9 A. Yes, it did.

10 Q. Now, given that there was fire from your building, placing

11 yourself, for the moment, in the shoes of the deputy commander of the

12 Bosnian Serb forces in Sarajevo, or at least considering his position,

13 would you think it appropriate for him, that is, legitimate, to respond to

14 snipers operating from an apartment building accommodating hundreds of

15 people, to respond with mortars?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is highly speculative,

18 Mr. President, because the witness is asked to speak through -- to assume

19 somebody else's role.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, firstly, that was also highly

21 inappropriate to express in front of the witness. Secondly, as it

22 happens, the Defence chose to invite this witness to comment legitimacy of

23 return fire yesterday no less and the witness was able to offer an

24 opinion.

25 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

Page 19908












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 19909

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That question which the

4 Defence asked -- was always concerned with the fact that one should be

5 governed by principles and we never wanted the question -- our questions

6 to be as subjectivised. Thank you.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Line 31, 7, is a question, not an answer.

8 That's the question we are dealing with.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had some difficulties in catching it on the

10 screen where it reads answer -- my recollection that it was your question,

11 Mr. Ierace, am I correct when you said, "placing yourself at the moment in

12 the shoes of the deputy commander."

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I note, I'm now rereading the question

14 there are some words missing from the transcript. Perhaps I should

15 rephrase it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question will be rephrased then. In

17 general terms, I would say that although one could wonder whether it would

18 always assist the Chamber highly to know the opinion of a witness about

19 what was legitimate or not, sometimes we are interested to know what the

20 view of the witness on that issue is. The Defence has asked that for

21 many, many times so therefore as such, this such a question is not

22 prohibited. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Thank you Mr. President.

24 Q. Mr. Gray --

25 JUDGE ORIE: You said you would rephrase the question any how.

Page 19910

1 Yes, that was just a comment in general subject matter, yes.


3 Q. You've told us that there was outgoing fire from the apartment

4 building in which hundreds of people were living. The deputy commander of

5 the Bosnian Serb forces in Nedzarici said he was responsible for that and

6 his only explanation was that the apartment block where you lived was now

7 part of the front line. Do you think that it was legitimate, lawful, if

8 you like, for a commander in that position to use mortar fire to respond

9 to machine-gun fire from an apartment complex with hundreds of people

10 living there?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I must ask and I apologise to

14 the witness but I must ask him to go out. No, I'll phrase it differently

15 but I'd rather not be reprimanded, Mr. President.

16 No, no, I will phrase it differently. We do not know what

17 formation did the -- this order have subjectively speaking.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'll put the question to the witness. When you were

19 told that the apartment block was shelled, did you form any opinion as to

20 whether, according to your knowledge and experience, long-standing

21 knowledge and experience as a military man, whether this would be a

22 legitimate target and with this weaponry?

23 THE WITNESS: It was appropriate from the point of view that the

24 Muslims were actually not only sniping and firing from my apartment

25 building, they were also using the apartment buildings and I saw this with

Page 19911

1 my own eyes, they were actually using it to -- as a what we'd call a

2 forming up place which is where you form your troops before you actually

3 attack and I saw them physically with the headbands on, the different

4 colours for all the different companies and platoons and so on, and they

5 were using it and they were coming out from behind the apartment buildings

6 and they were attacking Nedzarici.

7 So yes, if I was in the shoes of the commander of Nedzarici, I

8 would have used mortars.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand your testimony to be that apart

10 from what he told you, that you, yourself, had information that would, in

11 your view, make it a legitimate target, irrespective of what he told you.

12 THE WITNESS: Definitely.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


15 Q. What time of day did the mortar shells hit your apartment block?

16 A. Some of them -- one of them hit and I think I've got recorded in

17 the statement here that one of them hit about 5.00 in the morning. Others

18 hit the building at about -- about the same time.

19 Q. On more than one day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. During the break, can you find that reference to 5.00

22 in the morning in your statement?

23 A. I can try to find it, yeah.

24 Q. Would you regard a mortar as an appropriate weapon to use against

25 a gunning placement, that is, a small arms type of gunning placement,

Page 19912

1 inside an apartment block?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence has already

5 answered this question in his preceding answer -- I mean his previous

6 answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, the answer was not just about this question, the

8 answer dealt with matters that were outside the question as well. Please

9 proceed, Mr. Ierace.

10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question.


12 Q. Yes. I'll read it back to you. Would you regard a mortar as an

13 appropriate weapon to use against a gunning placement, that is, a small

14 arms type of gunning placement operating from inside an apartment block?

15 A. Yes, I would. You use every force available to you. I mean what

16 force you have available to you to actually counter the people -- I picked

17 up dead bodies from Nedzarici, okay? People had been shot through the

18 head. One of them had been in the national Yugoslav basketball team, he

19 was so long we couldn't fit him in the APC we had to leave the back doors

20 open. He was over 7 feet tall and I picked up those bodies from

21 Nedzarici. They were shot through the head and when you have someone

22 killed by sniper fire, you reply with the maximum force available. That

23 is what war is all about.

24 Q. And what regards, sir, do you have for civilians on the other side

25 when you return fire, if any?

Page 19913

1 A. I mean we weren't returning any fire. I mean, the civilians

2 basically moved from the very front wall of the apartment building, they

3 moved into the --

4 Q. Please stop for a minute. I think you've misunderstood my

5 question. I'm not referring to return fire from the UN. I'm saying, in

6 relation to that picture you paint, that position of the Bosnian Serb

7 commander, what regard should he have for civilian casualties on the other

8 side when he returns fire?

9 A. But, I mean, that's purely subjective.

10 Q. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that's a matter for him?

11 A. I mean that they were taking civilian casualties as well and war

12 is war is war. I mean you have to accept that there will be civilian

13 casualties and what he was trying to do was to ward off the people who

14 were firing, and I mean it's on the videotape, you can see it. He was

15 trying to ward off the people who were firing at him and killing his

16 people.

17 Q. If I could just stop you there for a minute. We understand that

18 the position of many of the commanders of troops during this armed

19 conflict had to respond to fire coming from urban areas. What I'm asking

20 you to comment on is the appropriateness of the type of weapon that you

21 used in that situation, a particular instance that you've told us about

22 was an apartment block accommodating hundreds of people --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

Page 19914

1 Could the witness please leave the courtroom.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Gray, it would be time any how for a break

3 so in order to prevent that you have to go out, return again, we'll have a

4 break for some 20 minutes and we'll not bother you at this moment with

5 your procedural issues.

6 Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Gray out of the courtroom.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Gray, I think you would still try to find the

9 day in your statement, I think, when you visited the school of theology;

10 isn't that correct?

11 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You do that -- you were asked to look during the

13 break whether you could find the date on which you visited the school of

14 theology, so if you would use your time.

15 THE WITNESS: In Nedzarici.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in Nedzarici. If you would please do that.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, no problem.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, my

20 objection is as follows: Mr. Ierace said this question and talks about

21 the appropriateness of a shot at a building in which there are several

22 hundreds of persons, not civilians. But the first thing he should have

23 established and he did not establish - I mean Mr. Ierace - is the

24 hypothetical knowledge whether he -- whether the Serb commander knew that

25 there were also many Serb civilians in that building because on one hand,

Page 19915

1 he -- because other witnesses have told us that they lived on the other

2 side from this facade which was exposed to the fire so if the commander

3 did not have the exact knowledge that the civilians were living there,

4 then this question lacks proper ground so hence my action.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first try to clarify the issue. I think the

6 question was that -- of course the witness cannot answer whether another

7 person would consider the target to be legitimate. To that extent there

8 is some hypothetical aspect in the question any how but having clarified

9 this as far as I understand the question, I'd like to give Mr. Ierace an

10 opportunity to respond to the objection.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my starting point is one of the two

12 occasions yesterday that the Defence raised this issue, the Defence asked

13 this question at 17.15 or thereabouts, having raised the issue of

14 night-time attacks over the city of Sarajevo, "Thank you, Colonel. The

15 Serbian reaction, was it normal, was it abnormal from a military point of

16 view was it understandable?" Answer: "It was probably disproportionate

17 to what was going out. What was coming in from the Serbs was certainly a

18 lot heavier but they had a lot more weapons when one or two rounds out and

19 ten rounds came in, it was just a fact of war. Question: "Very well."

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: I will slow down. "If we put aside the issue of the

22 proportionality of the response, was the response a legitimate one

23 according to your professional experience or was it not a legitimate one?

24 Answer: When you get fired at, you normally fire back so yes."

25 Mr. President, that was the second time that the Defence raised

Page 19916

1 this issue, called upon this witness as an expert, if you like, as an

2 experienced commander, to comment on the legitimacy of actions he observed

3 in Sarajevo. But when it is done now by the Prosecution, they interrupt

4 regularly, frequently, I think now for the fourth time.

5 Mr. President, you said earlier that it was of dubious assistance

6 to the Trial Chamber. If it is not of assistance and if that is clearly

7 understood then I won't pursue this issue, that is, this witness' opinions

8 of legitimacy and of lawfulness any further, but if it is an open issue in

9 terms of this witness, then I do respectfully seek the opportunity to

10 press him.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said one could wonder whether it would always

12 assist the Chamber.

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Mr. Ierace confronts you with what he considers

14 to be similar questions put yesterday to you by the witness and his

15 opinion that it would be inappropriate to object to questions similar to

16 those you put yourself to the witness.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I will

18 respond very briefly. In this particular case, the Prosecution didn't

19 seek to get general answers. The Prosecution used very precise terms.

20 They mentioned date and situation, date, situation and we have other

21 expressions and I can find them. We have here, for instance, this is page

22 36, line 15, a particular instance, specific situation, and we have the

23 apartment building accommodating hundreds of people. So here we are

24 talking about a particular situation but the objection is the following:

25 What did the commander know about this particular situation? Unless we

Page 19917

1 know the facts, the question has no foundation.

2 The question we asked was of a general nature. For instance if we

3 are using a mortar -- mobile mortar, is it then legitimate to respond with

4 counter-battery. I didn't say was it legitimate for this mortar to be

5 used on this day and so on. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is my recollection correct that on

7 many specific incidents, witnesses have testified about that you asked

8 whether and for what reasons this witness considered the place where, for

9 example, a shell landed to be a legitimate target, very specific on very

10 specific targets? That's my first question. My second question would be

11 such a question put in general terms would be more admissible for what

12 specific reason than if put in respect to a specific event?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, because if

14 we are asking a question how something was done, then imply a fact that a

15 commander under the orders of General Galic therefore and implying the

16 responsibility of General Galic would have then attacked this apartment,

17 fired on the target, that could be a civilian facility so this is one

18 subjective aspect which is what I mentioned earlier.

19 In any case, the answer of the witness was very interesting but

20 this way of proceeding is very different from a general way, for instance,

21 asking a question and saying, firing on an apartment block in which there

22 are active soldiers preparing operations, is that a legitimate target?

23 That is a neutral question and acceptable in the eyes of the Defence but

24 the way the Prosecution asked the question, putting the -- yourself in the

25 shoes of the commander now that is a different way of asking a question,

Page 19918

1 thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: My last question: If you put a question on whether a

3 certain place would be a legitimate target because there was soldiers

4 there, in your line of reasoning, would it be relevant to know whether the

5 one who ordered this target to be attacked would know about the presence

6 of soldiers there just as you indicated that it was of importance to know

7 for those who were in charge to know whether they were aware of civilians

8 living there. It's not my recollection, but correct me if I am wrong that

9 when questions were put to witnesses whether certain buildings or certain

10 structures were legitimate targets, that I do not remember that you asked,

11 as a previous question, whether the person who would fire at such an

12 object would know about the presence of what you might consider it to make

13 a legitimate target.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would

15 appreciate a precise example on your part, but what can I say off the top

16 of my head is that the question that was asked was as a general. How can

17 we get to the HQ if it is located in the town and if we cannot have a

18 direct access to it? This is a general question that was asked which

19 would not imply a subjectivism and the questions in a general rule from

20 posed in this way and I believe that, yours if I may be allowed, at asking

21 a certain expert with what would you attack an HQ which was located in a

22 lower part of the building. These are the question we're asking and we

23 believe that we are asking them particularly if we are referring to a

24 commander that we don't know who he is or what he did at the time.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will give a decision after the

Page 19919

1 break. We'll adjourn until 6.00. Yes, there's one issue I should deal

2 with before the break. There would be a possibility to sit tomorrow

3 morning instead of tomorrow in the afternoon. It would not create any

4 extra time. Would there be any opposition from the parties to sit in the

5 morning rather than the afternoon?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For General Galic, I don't

7 know but for his counsel, that would be fine.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, General Galic, would there be any problem as far

9 as you are concerned?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no problems

11 with that. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we could live with that. I would

15 prefer that we sat in the afternoon but we could comply with that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then subject to checking the agendas of the

17 bench and all those who have to be present, we'll then sit tomorrow in the

18 morning in courtroom 2. Yes. We now adjourn until 6.00.

19 --- Break taken at 5.40 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you may escort the witness into the

22 courtroom.

23 The Chamber still owes you a decision, the objection is denied, at

24 the same time, Mr. Ierace, spending too much time on the issue seems not

25 to be very useful.

Page 19920

1 MR. IERACE: Understood, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will sit tomorrow in the morning, courtroom 2

3 from 9.00 until quarter to 2.00.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the

5 meantime, may I know why, although I can guess, why is the objection

6 rejected? So for future reference?

7 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied because the Chamber has

8 accepted and -- similar questions whether of a general nature, whether in

9 a specific part that what we learn from it is what a witness, at least we

10 can guess, has been taught as to legitimacy of targets. The Chamber has

11 also expressed that it's -- perhaps that one could wonder to what extent

12 these questions could assist the Chamber because the Chamber is of the

13 opinion that whether a target is legitimate or not depends on what the

14 witness tells us about that but what the Chamber finds finally. So

15 therefore it's a bit mixed at the one hand, the Chamber is not greatly

16 assisted but to the extent it assists these questions are not

17 inadmissible.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, Mr. Ierace will resume the

20 cross-examination. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Mr. Gray, when you spoke to the deputy commander, did you make

23 clear to him that there was civilians living in the apartment block where

24 you lived?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 19921

1 Q. Did the apartment blocks remain a target to the Bosnian Serb

2 forces after that day?

3 A. Yes, they did.

4 Q. And did mortars from time to time remain weapons used by the

5 Bosnian Serb forces against targets within the apartment block?

6 A. No, very infrequently. They were only -- the apartment blocks

7 were only hit maybe three or four times, that's all.

8 Q. The -- I withdraw that. In relation to the position of UN forces,

9 you have told us some of the history of the PTT. When did the UN first

10 place personnel in the headquarters at Lukavica?

11 A. I'd have to refer to my diary but it was in late June, early July.

12 Q. All right. Did you regard the headquarters where UN personnel

13 were placed as a legitimate military target for forces of the Bosnian

14 Presidency?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why was that?

17 A. Because we were there to actually try and bring some peace. We

18 were there to actually observe the concentration of weapons and we

19 were -- we had very clear indications that -- I mean we had a UN flag

20 flying outside, for instance, Lukavica barracks and the building that was

21 next to the Presidency where we had our headquarters as well.

22 Q. Let me make sure I understand your position on this. The

23 headquarters of the Bosnian Serb army operating in the Sarajevo theatre

24 was not a legitimate target from the time that the UN placed personnel in

25 those headquarters; is that correct?

Page 19922

1 A. That's true.

2 Q. Was there any written agreement between the parties to that

3 effect?

4 A. Yes, there was.

5 Q. Whereabouts was that agreement?

6 A. The agreement was that we told both sides individually, because

7 they wouldn't come together, to talk.

8 Q. Let me stop you for a moment. I badly phrased my question.

9 You've told us there was a written agreement to that effect. When was

10 that written agreement made?

11 A. Do you not have copies of the agreements?

12 Q. Do you say it's in the heavy weapons agreement?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. All right. Did it strike you as odd that the headquarters for the

15 Bosnian Serb forces were not a legitimate target but the same did not

16 apply to the headquarters for the Bosnian Presidency forces?

17 A. We had no people situated at the Bosnian Presidency forces

18 headquarters. There were no military observers there.

19 Q. I understand that. But looking back on it, does it not strike you

20 as odd that the Bosnian Serb headquarters should be spared and not those

21 of their enemy?

22 A. It was not spared.

23 Q. Does it not strike you as odd that that situation was agreed?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. The position that you had by July was that the UN

Page 19923

1 personnel on the Bosnian Serb side were some distance from the

2 confrontation lines; correct?

3 A. Yes, they were.

4 Q. Whereas the headquarters in Sarajevo were, to use your earlier

5 estimate, some 400 metres from the confrontation line; is that correct?

6 A. They were close, yes.

7 Q. When one looks at the video that you provided us, in particular of

8 the Lukavica barracks, they appear on that video to be in generally good

9 condition, don't they?

10 A. That's not actually true. What you see is yes, they are in good

11 condition, but no, they were not.

12 Q. You don't see smashed windows and shards of glass lying about, do

13 you?

14 A. You don't in the videos, no.

15 Q. The impacts on Lukavica were far less, so it would seem, than

16 impacts on and in the vicinity of the headquarters in the PTT building;

17 would you agree with that?

18 A. True.

19 Q. Now, yesterday, you said this: "The Serbian forces were basically

20 in Bosnia wanted to keep the land that they had for a long time, hundreds

21 of years. The Muslims, on the other hand, on the Presidency side, or the

22 Presidency side, wanted to totally cleanse Bosnia and Herzegovina of any

23 Serbians and have a totally Muslim state."

24 A. That is on public record --

25 Q. Please wait, I haven't asked you the question yet.

Page 19924












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13 English transcripts.













Page 19925

1 A. Sorry.

2 Q. Does that fairly state your view, at this stage, as to the

3 objectives of the two warring factions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you first arrive at that conclusion?

6 A. I arrived at that conclusion after a consolidated media campaign

7 by the Muslims against UNPROFOR, the UN, and the Serbs.

8 Q. And I take it that was when you were in Sarajevo?

9 A. That's true.

10 Q. Do you remember the month?

11 A. July.

12 Q. Do you remember when in the month of July?

13 A. No, I don't, but there is a article --

14 Q. Please -- if you could respond just to the question?

15 A. I'm sorry.

16 Q. If we need some more information, we'll ask for it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And make a pause as well.

18 THE WITNESS: I am sorry?

19 JUDGE ORIE: And make a pause as well before you answer the

20 question.

21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You're not the first one to forget about it.


24 Q. A number of times over the last three days when you have been

25 asked when things have happened, you've said July. Was July a turning

Page 19926

1 point for you; yes or no?

2 A. From what perspective?

3 Q. In your view of the conflict.

4 A. July was a very busy month and you can have a look at any -- I

5 mean you can look at all the documents I've got with me right now and that

6 will show you that July was a very busy month.

7 Q. Was it a turning point for you in terms of your view of the

8 conflict?

9 A. Yes, it probably was, yes.

10 Q. Now, apart from the media campaign that you've referred to, was

11 there any other event in July that affected your view of the conflict in

12 particular who was responsible for the conflict?

13 A. I was targeted a number of times in July, specifically, and I mean

14 it was by direct fire, it was not by indirect fire. Indirect fire was

15 nothing, as far as I was concerned.

16 Q. All right. And yesterday you told us that you were targeted 13

17 times directly and personally, mostly by the Bosnian Muslim forces, as you

18 call it, and on the other occasions, by the Croatian forces; is that

19 correct?

20 A. That's true.

21 Q. When you say personally targeted, do you mean that they wanted to

22 kill Richard Gray?

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. They were targeting you not as a UN worker but as Richard Gray?

25 A. I had two death threats to me, one to my face, and one by

Page 19927

1 telephone.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. And on at least one occasion, I informed the liaison officers who

4 were present in the PTT and I told them exactly when and where I was going

5 and when I went there, I was machine-gunned.

6 Q. Now, we don't have time to take you through each of those 13

7 incidents, but just to be clear on this, you're saying that on each of the

8 occasions that you were shot at, you are convinced that the shooter wanted

9 to kill you because you are Richard Gray; is that correct?

10 A. No, they were shooting -- in most cases, they were shooting at a

11 UN vehicle, on at least two occasions, they knew it was Richard Gray,

12 okay, but they -- I mean it was full daylight in a large APC and on one

13 particular occasion, they knew I was in the vehicle and they shot at me

14 with a 50 calibre machine-gun in broad daylight with bright sunshine in

15 summer, 8 tonne APC, UN markings, flags flying, you couldn't mistake us.

16 We called the UN marking on the side of the APC a target.

17 Q. Mr. Gray, that's a little different from what you said a few

18 minutes ago and I want to be clear on this. Are you now saying that on at

19 least two occasions, you're convinced that you were targeted as

20 Richard Gray but on the other occasions, you were targeted because you

21 happened to be in a UN-marked vehicle?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. That is correct, yeah, that's true.

25 Q. Now, we've heard evidence from a number of UN personnel who were

Page 19928

1 there during the conflict and suffice to say it was a very disturbing

2 experience, there's no doubt about that?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Did you, after -- I will withdraw that.

5 Mr. President, at this stage could we go into private session?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19929

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 MR. IERACE: I'll repeat the question.

Page 19930

1 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.

2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Let me take you back to the words that you told us yesterday as to

4 your understanding of what motivated the Serb and the Bosnian government

5 forces in the Sarajevo conflict. And I suggest to you that your view is a

6 little one-sided.

7 A. I would disagree.

8 Q. You told us over the last two days of an incident involving

9 Lord Carrington. I suggest to you that you are incorrect, firstly, as to

10 the identity of the politician involved, and secondly, as to the date.

11 What would you say to that?

12 A. You could be correct on the identity of the politician and the

13 date, I would have to check on, but I think it was -- it was a British

14 politician, it was either Lord Carrington or it was the foreign secretary

15 for the UK.

16 Q. When you say you have to check on the date, do you remember that

17 when you first told us about it you did just that, you took out your diary

18 and you checked the date? Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. And having checked the date, you told us it was the 3rd of July,

21 1992. I suggest to you that on the 3rd of July, 1992, indeed,

22 Lord Carrington arrived in Sarajevo. I suggest to you there was no

23 mortaring incident during that visit.

24 A. I'm sorry, there was.

25 Q. All right.

Page 19931

1 A. There was a mortar incident.

2 Q. And you have --

3 A. During his visit.

4 Q. Do you have a note of that mortaring incident during his visit?

5 A. No, I don't. I don't have a note of it.

6 Q. All right. Well, on the tape that you provided us, was there a

7 BBC news report about the visit by Lord Carrington?

8 A. I can't recall everything that was on the tape. I mean there are

9 four or five tapes that I provided.

10 Q. If there was -- I withdraw that.

11 Perhaps the Defence might agree that there is a report of the

12 Lord Carrington visit.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

14 we can, in fact, see this politician in one of the video sequences but I

15 don't know whether the dates correspond because I only had a very short

16 time to look at it so in fact, yes, I believe it was Lord Carrington.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the Defence agrees that there is

18 a video picture where a person which you recognise as Lord Carrington

19 appears without knowing the date.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


22 Q. If it happened as you tell it -- I withdraw that.

23 Did General MacKenzie go with Lord Carrington to the Presidency?

24 A. I believe he did.

25 Q. Have you read General MacKenzie's account, published account of

Page 19932

1 his time in Sarajevo, entitled "Peacekeeper, the Road to Sarajevo"?

2 A. Yes, I have a personally signed copy of it in which I appear many

3 times.

4 Q. Yes. And do you remember that he wrote about the visit of

5 Lord Carrington?

6 A. No, I don't. I don't recall that.

7 Q. Would you accept from me that in his account, he made no mention

8 of any mortar incident?

9 A. I will accept that.

10 Q. On the other hand, Sir Douglas Hurd --

11 A. Oh, that's the guy. That's the one.

12 Q. In Sarajevo --

13 A. That's the one.

14 Q. On the 17th of July?

15 A. Yeah, that's him.

16 Q. And there was a mortar incident at the Presidency?

17 A. That was him. He was a foreign secretary, right.

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. Okay. We've got it. That's the one.

20 Q. And this was the incident that you described as a goody?

21 A. Sorry, a what?

22 Q. A goody.

23 A. It wasn't good at all.

24 Q. But they were your words when you first talked about it. This was

25 a goody. Do you remember that?

Page 19933

1 A. No, I don't. And if I did say that, I withdraw it and I'm very

2 sorry. Because it wasn't good at all.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like

4 to know where, could we have the reference, where was this quoted from,

5 could Mr. Ierace give the reference.

6 MR. IERACE: The transcript for the 18th of February time 18.17

7 and 43 seconds on my transcript, answer: "Okay this is a goody. Okay.

8 We had a visit of Lord Carrington on the 3rd of July, 1992."

9 Q. Now, do you now think that you got the date wrong?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I recall very

14 well that moment when this "goody" arrived.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You may ask questions about it. If you are telling

16 us that in your view, "goody" might have reflected to something else as to

17 the event, you are certainly allowed to ask questions to that extent.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I won't have to. Thank you.


20 Q. Do you now think -- I withdraw that.

21 That your memory has been significantly affected as to the events

22 that took place in Sarajevo?

23 A. I remember everything totally vividly and my memory may be

24 affected by the fact that they happened 11 years ago and I don't have a

25 total written record of the events, I only have a record of some or most

Page 19934

1 of the events, but my memory of what actually happened can never, ever be

2 altered.

3 Q. How many mortars were there that fell that day at the Presidency?

4 A. There were two bombs that landed.

5 Q. Something you would never forget?

6 A. Never and it's on videotape.

7 Q. The videotape that you gave us?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The videotape doesn't have the mortars landing, does it?

10 A. No, it does not, it has the aftermath.

11 Q. Do you remember when you read General MacKenzie's account he said

12 there were ten mortar rounds that landed immediately across the street

13 from the Presidency?

14 A. I do not recall that but I know that in the meeting, while we were

15 having the meeting, there were mortar bombs landing so, I mean, his

16 recollection may be that there were two and then there were eight, but I

17 mean, there were -- there were mortar bombs landing while the meeting was

18 actually going on.

19 Q. Okay. I'll read you his version: "On Douglas Hurd's arrival,

20 there were 10 to 15 members of the TDF on either side of the building's

21 entrance as a sort of honour guard".

22 THE INTERPRETER: Would you slow down please.

23 MR. IERACE: I will.

24 Q. "Once he had entered the main door, the group of TDF on the right

25 of the entrance joined their colleagues on the left and the entire group

Page 19935

1 walked around to the west side of the building and took cover."

2 I'll stop there for a moment.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

4 One refers normally to the quotation taken from a book which was -- which

5 I presume should have been copied so we should have it to know what is the

6 context and I believe this is the minimum that we can ask for.

7 MR. IERACE: I will provide copies.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do understand that you get

9 the context.


11 Q. Now, just stopping there for a moment, the other day you told us

12 that you were out the front and the police -- I'm now quoting "actually

13 moved inside the building and left me standing outside the front."

14 A. That's incorrect. What I said was they moved from the left to the

15 right and there were two armed soldiers, they weren't police, they were

16 just armed soldiers. They moved inside the building and left me standing

17 out the front and the soldiers or the -- rather the police at the very

18 front who were across the opposite side of the road, they moved from the

19 left to the right, then the bombs landed and then the ambulance was there,

20 then --

21 Q. Mr. Gray, please. I'm not making this up. I am reading the

22 transcript. I'll read you the full sentences of your words two days ago.

23 A. Yeah, okay, fine.

24 Q. "An ambulance arrived no longer than 30 seconds after the bombs

25 had landed"

Page 19936

1 A. True.

2 Q. "The police moved back. I was standing in the entrance with

3 liaison officers from the Bosnian Presidency. They actually moved inside

4 the building and left me standing outside the front".

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. "Which I thought was really nice when the bombs actually landed

7 because they knew they were coming."

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. That is correct. And then the police moved back to where they

11 were when the ambulance arrived and they had all the media there and then

12 Douglas Hurd arrived and it was all mayhem.

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ierace, I think you should read

14 before -- start before that.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I'll read

16 the -- earlier and I correct myself, Mr. Gray.

17 Q. "There was then a delay and so he was 30 minutes late in actually

18 getting to the Presidency?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please slow down.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, not only would

22 I like to have it slowed down, but this is very characteristic. These

23 copies were ready and yet we were not given so that early enough to be

24 able to go through them which I really do not understand. I have to read

25 this, I cannot concentrate on this. I am reading it, let us allow us to

Page 19937

1 read it slowly and then we shall take it up again slowly.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Reading the

3 transcript of the 18th and if you would please do it slowly, Mr. -- "You

4 started and then there was then a delay and so he was 30 minutes late."

5 Yes, please proceed.

6 MR. IERACE: "In actually getting to the Presidency to meet the

7 Bosnian Muslim, whatever Presidency side. They had very carefully placed

8 out a cordon of police which stretched down the opposite side from the

9 Presidency and the police were set at 10 metre intervals, et cetera. We

10 were told that he was late and that was fine, I mean, it was UN time, and

11 then we were told he was coming. The police moved as I was looking from

12 the front of the Presidency. They were -- they moved from left to right.

13 Immediately after that, and while he was actually on his way, two mortar

14 bombs landed, 82 millimetre mortar bombs, and I know the difference

15 between 82, 120, 122, 105, I've been through it, they landed and they

16 killed people and wounded people right there. An ambulance arrived no

17 longer than 30 seconds after the bombs had landed. The police moved back.

18 I was standing in the entrance with liaison officers from the Bosnian

19 Presidency. They actually moved inside the building and left me standing

20 outside the front which I thought was really nice."

21 Who moved inside the building?

22 A. The two liaison officers moved inside the building. The police on

23 the opposite side of the road moved to -- from left to right, as I looked

24 at them from the front entrance of the Presidency and when the bombs had

25 landed, the ambulance had arrived, they moved back and the two liaison

Page 19938

1 officers came out from inside the building.

2 Q. All right. Now, do you see anything sinister in the two liaison

3 officers having gone inside?

4 A. They knew the bombs were going to land.

5 Q. The fact that they went inside by itself was not conclusive of

6 that, was it?

7 A. To me, it was.

8 Q. The distinguished guest had moved inside?

9 A. No, he hadn't.

10 Q. Where was he?

11 A. We had other -- sorry.

12 Q. Where was he at that stage that the bombs --

13 A. He had not arrived. He was about to drive through where the

14 mortars landed.

15 Q. All right. Now, was General MacKenzie with Sir Douglas Hurd at

16 the stage that the bombs fell as far as you knew?

17 A. Yes, as far as I knew he normally travelled in a VBL which is a

18 small French armoured personnel carrier, as opposed to a VAB which is a

19 large one, which I normally travelled in, and he arrived in the small one

20 and Douglas Hurd and his entourage.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down for the

22 interpreters.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Douglas Hurd arrived in the larger APC

24 with his entourage. They all got out. There was pandemonium going on 100

25 metres away where the casualties were being taken away to the hospital and

Page 19939

1 that was that.

2 MR. IERACE: Right.

3 Q. So you can remember being out the front with the pandemonium and

4 Sir Douglas Hurd arriving; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And General MacKenzie?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. No doubt at that stage, security officers running everywhere

9 trying to get them into the building, I take it?

10 A. They got out of the vehicles and they were basically shepherded

11 into the building.

12 Q. Right.

13 Mr. Presidency, might I just clarify whether the witness has a

14 copy of the excerpt. Do you have --

15 A. Yeah, I've got it.

16 Q. Please turn to the second page. It has number 457 in the top

17 right hand corner.

18 A. Yeah, got it.

19 Q. This is a photocopy of a page from General MacKenzie's book.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't have

21 enough time to read. What are we talking about?

22 JUDGE ORIE: We're talking about a copy of the book, page 457, a

23 book of which the title is "Peacekeeper".

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I haven't had the time to

25 read it fully. Well, I -- can I have this time to do this?

Page 19940












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13 English transcripts.













Page 19941

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think generally, when a document comes up

2 during cross-examination, if you need more time to read it before you

3 re-examine the witness, you certainly will have it but if you could do

4 that, if it would help you to take one minute or one minute and a half to

5 get a general impression, please go ahead.


7 Q. Mr. Gray, could you please read it to yourself from the entry July

8 17 to the bottom of the page and the end of the first paragraph on the

9 following page, that is, the first two lines of the following page as well

10 and tell me when you've done that.

11 A. Apart from the sequence.

12 Q. Well first of all, have you finished reading that section?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Including over the page?

15 A. Yes, I have.

16 MR. IERACE: Has my learned colleague read it?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I've already underlined

18 it, yes.


20 Q. Now, do you agree on this account, Douglas Hurd had arrived and

21 was inside the building at the time that the mortars fell?

22 A. The mortars fell --

23 Q. Please, I'm asking you whether you agree that's what this account

24 says?

25 A. I agree.

Page 19942

1 Q. All right. Now, do you accept that Sir Douglas Hurd was inside

2 the building with General MacKenzie at the time the mortars fell?

3 A. I accept that some of the mortars fell while they were inside the

4 building but there were two mortar bombs that landed before they arrived.

5 Q. If that's the case, Mr. Gray, given that you gave evidence about

6 this topic on three separate occasions over the last two days, why did you

7 not tell us that more than two mortar bombs fell? Why did you not say to

8 us that two fell before he arrived and more fell while he was in the

9 building?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. In

11 relation to the end of Mr. Ierace's sentence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you consider it to be an incorrect statement of

13 what --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In relation to what the

15 witness has said, we're really on the razor's edge.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question was at least I'll rephrase it in

17 such a way that why did you not say to us - that was the question of

18 Mr. Ierace - that two fell before the arrival and more fell afterwards.

19 THE WITNESS: Because I wasn't asked.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


22 Q. Where were you when the other -- sorry, how many fell whilst

23 Sir Douglas Hurd was inside the building?

24 A. I wasn't keeping count. Counting mortar bombs and counting

25 shells, for me, anyway, had long gone.

Page 19943

1 Q. And did you hear the primaries firing with these other eight

2 mortar shells?

3 A. No, you can't. I was inside the building. But when I was outside

4 the building I could hear the primaries firing.

5 Q. So at the time that the other eight fell, you were inside the

6 building?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. Whereabouts inside the building?

9 A. Inside the conference room on the second floor.

10 Q. Do you remember that?

11 A. Sorry?

12 Q. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. And do you remember counting eight shells?

15 A. I've just told you I didn't --

16 Q. Sorry, I withdraw that. How do you know that there were eight

17 shells?

18 A. I told you I didn't count them.

19 Q. Yes. But do you know now how many there were?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How far apart did they land, in other words, did they all land

22 however many there were, in the same instant or over a period of seconds

23 or minutes?

24 A. Over a period of minutes.

25 Q. Sir, this is a -- an incident of extraordinary magnitude, isn't

Page 19944

1 it, that all these mortar shells landed some before and some while the

2 English -- the British foreign secretary was inside the Presidency?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. Yes. And how many people do you remember were killed?

5 A. I didn't see the people who were killed while we were actually in

6 the meeting because they were -- had been removed when we came out from

7 the meeting. So I didn't know how many were actually killed.

8 Q. Did you find it odd that there were -- that ambulances attended so

9 quickly?

10 A. I found it extremely -- well, it was beyond circumstance.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. There is a

14 redundant "s" in the question of Mr. Ierace. Mr. Ierace should refer to

15 the witness' statement.

16 MR. IERACE: I don't follow that, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think you were talking in the plural, but as

18 Mr. -- It's the recollection of Mr. Piletta-Zanin that the witness

19 testified about singular form of ambulance. It's -- do you understand

20 what I mean?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes.

22 Q. Did you find it odd that the ambulance arrived so quickly? I'm

23 sorry. I will withdraw that because I think you've already answered it.

24 I think you said: "I found it extremely -- well, it was beyond

25 circumstance."

Page 19945

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did it not occur to you that there might have been another

3 explanation that given the history of Sarajevo over the previous months

4 and given the importance of the occasion, it would be quite appropriate

5 for the government authorities to have ambulances, if not in close

6 proximity, even there should they be required that there was hardly a safe

7 area?

8 A. No, I do not. With all the previous visits, there had never been

9 an ambulance close by, never.

10 Q. Well, how do you know that if, as you know accept, there wasn't a

11 similar incident when Lord Carrington arrived? How -- to explain my

12 question further, how do you know that if there hadn't been mortars

13 arriving at the Presidency when he was there, that an ambulance wouldn't

14 have appeared promptly?

15 A. I have no idea, but the coincidence was -- I mean it had got so

16 bad with these sorts of incidences with people like President Mitterand

17 and Carrington and Hurd and a number of others had got so bad, we actually

18 were running a sweepstake on this particular arrival on when, to the

19 second, the mortar bombs would land. That is how bad it was.

20 Q. Sir, do you remember I asked you a question about the arrival of

21 an ambulance and suggested to you that you had taken only one of a number

22 of possible explanations?

23 A. That is true, I did.

24 Q. What has your answer got to do with that question?

25 A. There was no reason to have -- it was a quiet, quiet day. There

Page 19946

1 was no reason to have -- ambulances had other business to do. It was very

2 quiet day and there was no reason to have one pre-positioned for what

3 happened.

4 Q. Sir, in the months that preceded this visit, there were many quiet

5 times, I suggest to you, otherwise quiet times, when mortar shells would

6 land out of the blue anywhere in Sarajevo. What do you say to that?

7 A. True.

8 Q. Why was it not prudent for the government authorities to ensure

9 that if required, ambulances could attend as soon as possible?

10 A. It is a possibility.

11 Q. Look at again please at the passage you just read and do you agree

12 there is no mention in this account of two mortar shells landing before

13 Sir Douglas Hurd entered the building; do you agree?

14 A. I agree.

15 Q. I suggest to you it didn't happen, that mortar shells landed after

16 he entered the building and not before?

17 A. Review the videotape, I can show you if you like, I can do it

18 after this I can show you exactly the sequence and where the mortar bombs

19 landed, exactly, precisely. They landed. I saw them with my own eyes.

20 Two mortar bombs landed. There was a gentleman in his late 50s, early

21 60s, he was standing --

22 Q. Understand this, please, I'm not disputing --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President, I

24 think under the circumstances it would be very useful if the witness could

25 make a precise -- make his answer very precise for everybody, for the

Page 19947

1 Chamber, for the Prosecution, for the Defence. Thank you.

2 MR. IERACE: I will press what I respectfully say is my right to

3 make clear to the witness what's in dispute and what's not in dispute.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think what the witness explained was not in a

5 direct answer to what Mr. Ierace asked him but on the other hand,

6 Mr. Gray, when you told us about what you saw, did you want to tell us

7 about anything that would be in your mind still of what happened or

8 something that would prove that it was before the politician arrived that

9 the mortar fell?

10 THE WITNESS: The proof, Your Honour, is on the videotape and --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But if you are talking about a at a

12 certain age then of course as such, I mean, could be before or after the

13 politician had arrived. Is there any specific fact you would like to tell

14 us which indicates that it was before the arrival that the shells landed?

15 THE WITNESS: It is my word that they --

16 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


18 Q. Did you discuss this incident with General MacKenzie after

19 Sir Douglas Hurd left?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you tell him what you saw and what you heard?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was there any other UN officer in the front of the Presidency at

24 the time that the two mortar shells landed?

25 A. No.

Page 19948

1 Q. Does it follow that General MacKenzie was dependent entirely on

2 your account in terms of UN sources as to what happened when the first two

3 shells landed?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. I

7 cannot really phrase it but it has to do with the structure of observation

8 at various places because we have already seen a large number of documents

9 and therefore, this question is quite redundant and that is why I am

10 objecting.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course the witness could have answered that,

12 again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in your objections you should not give the clues

13 to what you think that would -- could you please answer the question,

14 witness.

15 THE WITNESS: Sorry, can you repeat the question.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray-- yes. Mr. Ierace will repeat the

17 question.


19 Q. Does it follow that you were the only UN officer on the scene at

20 the time and you spoke to General MacKenzie afterwards that

21 General MacKenzie was dependent entirely on your account as far as you

22 know, in terms of UN sources, as to what happened when the first two

23 shells landed?

24 A. He was dependent on my account and his recollection, which -- I

25 mean, he was an extremely busy person, obviously, I was busy as well, but,

Page 19949

1 I mean, he recalled the mortar bombs that landed during the meeting but he

2 didn't physically see the two bombs that landed just before he arrived.

3 Q. So he had to depend on you, didn't he?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. Now did you tell him that people were killed?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And that's something that was obvious to you, was it, when two

8 mortar shells landed that people had been killed?

9 A. It was 100 metres away. It's on the videotape.

10 Q. We'll come to that. Did you see people who had been killed at the

11 time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Mr. President, I'd like the videotape to be played. I've prepared

15 a tape which has a number of segments on it and this is the first one.

16 Perhaps the witness's screen could be put on the appropriate --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but, Mr. Ierace, we've got three minutes left on

18 the clock I take it you would have some questions for the witness related

19 to that videotape.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I do.

21 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would that take.

22 MR. IERACE: It takes -- it takes less than three minutes, I

23 think, about three minutes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll play the videotape.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 19950

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, if you speak very -- let's just first view

2 the video.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection to all the questions

7 relative to this tape. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I could not hear you. I don't know whether the

9 interpreters could hear Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will repeat, objection

11 formally, formal objection to all the questions that the Prosecution might

12 want to ask as usual in relation to this tape and that is under our rules.

13 Well, the Prosecution has not bothered to provide a transcript so that

14 that transcript could be translated for the General so that the General

15 could know what this is about. The General didn't understand anything

16 about it. They enter the -- the Prosecution will be asking questions

17 about the text about which General Galic knows nothing and that is -- that

18 does not really do.

19 I know we are pressed by the time, the General Galic simply does

20 not know anything what is on this tape, anything about this text and that

21 is not natural, that you.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, what can I say? The Defence played

23 excerpts yesterday and didn't -- I didn't object, obviously didn't have

24 any problem with that.


Page 19951

1 MR. IERACE: We haven't had the tapes for very long. In an ideal

2 world we would provide transcripts of course. That's hardly the fault of

3 the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence takes the position that it's different

5 for the Defence and apart from that, they explained to General Galic what

6 the tape was about. Are you willing to explain what the tape was about?

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I am.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.


10 Q. On the tape that we have just viewed, did we see, firstly, --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I take note, I

12 thank you, but I can see that this is not going to be sufficient. The

13 information is not sufficient for the defendant.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the -- let me just confer.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Would the interpreters be able to, upon replay, to

17 translate the comment we hear on this tape?

18 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honour, it is too fast.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, from the B/C/S booth it would be

20 extremely difficult because of the speed.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I did listen to number three because -- which gives

22 no interpretation at all. Could I please be informed whether this is...

23 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honour, the text is too fast and we need

24 to see either the text or view the tapes several times over.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Prosecution is invited to make a transcript

Page 19952

1 of the tape and then it could be replayed tomorrow morning.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that places the Prosecution in an

3 impossible position. I understand the principles involved.


5 MR. IERACE: We're now sitting at 9.00 a.m., I have a number of

6 passages of tape. We're informed this is a problem at 7.00. I don't have

7 the staff to do that. If it's possible to see it tomorrow afternoon, then

8 we can do it tomorrow morning.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Are we just talking about the comment of this tape or

12 are there other tapes to be played, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Other tapes as well, Mr. President.

14 Mr. President, in the normal course of events we would have

15 received this material from the Defence a long time before we did and the

16 Prosecution has time and again in relation to this witness done its best

17 to accommodate the problems of the Defence and this now places a

18 requirement that we just can't meet on such short notice.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The tapes have been provided at a very late stage,

20 that means that this might result in a decision that we would have to sit

21 tomorrow in the afternoon rather than tomorrow morning so that at least

22 some time -- we try to solve it in a different way that's not possible.

23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Very

25 respectfully, I suggest that the argument of not sufficient personnel is

Page 19953

1 not really reasonable. We all have to work in difficult conditions

2 sometimes and I think we have to --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we all know the circumstances, we

4 all know that there are teams that -- so that's something that is apparent

5 to everyone we all know that the tapes arrived late no one is being blamed

6 for it but just whether the argument is good or not, the main issue is how

7 we solve this matter at the one hand. The --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very simply,

11 if Mr. Ierace can write down the content of these tapes, and then give

12 them to the booth, would that be such a difficult problem for Mr. Ierace?

13 I don't think so.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The question is Mr. Piletta-Zanin puts the question

15 to you whether it would be a great effort and whether there would be a

16 possibility to write down the text of the videos that you are still about

17 to play?

18 MR. IERACE: But we're now at 9.00 in the morning, Mr. President,

19 yes. We've got 16 minutes of footage and I just don't have the staff to

20 do that tonight. And obviously I have my own tasks to do.


22 MR. IERACE: In relation to cross-examination.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the earliest time you would be able to

25 have finished this transcript of 16 minutes?

Page 19954

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I imagine, 10.30. I should indicate

2 of course we've given a copy of the tape to the Defence but 10.30 in the

3 morning. We should be able to do an English copy by then, in terms of a

4 translated copy that would take longer, obviously.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but once we have text or part of text they could

6 be translated, I take it, to the accused in one way or the other. Would

7 you have -- I do understand that if you are required now to provide this

8 text that it would interrupt your cross-examination at this very moment

9 and -- would you have subjects to cover that time or would you say then we

10 have to start at 10.30?

11 MR. IERACE: Perhaps a compromise, Mr. President, if we were to

12 start at 10.00, I'd certainly have material that I could utilise in the

13 first half hour. The problem is simply that we might end up with a

14 somewhat jumbled cross-examination if I can't go methodically through it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would --

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I

19 apologise but on this subject, we have another problem. We promised a

20 transcript of our tape that was looked at yesterday but the tape is still

21 in the hands of the registry, I believe, so I don't know how we are going

22 to do -- to find exactly --

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Let's first try

24 to deal with the problem we are faced with at this very moment. The

25 parties should be prepared that we will sit tomorrow in the afternoon but

Page 19955












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 19956

1 the Chamber is aware that all the schedules have been changed so what

2 we'll try to do is to see whether we can sit -- change it again to

3 tomorrow in the afternoon so that we have the full time of sitting

4 tomorrow available to us. If not possible, the parties should be prepared

5 to start at 10.00 in the morning but first option of the Chamber is, if

6 possible, to move to the afternoon. If not possible, the parties should

7 keep themself informed to start at 10.00.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: An alternative proposal to accommodate everyone, if

12 we start at 9.00, if by 9.00 we have an English transcription of the first

13 segment, then I can at least proceed with evidence in -- cross-examination

14 in relation to that incident we'll keep them coming into the courtroom

15 through the morning and I'll --

16 JUDGE ORIE: And then the written text can be translated by the

17 interpreters.

18 MR. IERACE: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If that would solve the problem then we'll -- yes,

20 Mr. Gray, you are waiting. What would you like to tell us.

21 THE WITNESS: I'm just saying that the piece of videotape that the

22 Prosecution have shown is very good. It's shown from one particular

23 angle.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, we are not at this moment, Mr. Gray, the

25 interpreters have been suffering already from 15 minutes where we finished

Page 19957

1 late also yesterday. Once --

2 THE WITNESS: There is another piece of videotape there which is

3 taken from the other angle.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand but it's up to the parties to

5 show those videos to the Court that they deem of importance.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is important. Question about

7 that because I'm not aware of any other part of the tape that relates to

8 this incident.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, there is, it shows a brown Mercedes car, okay,

10 and that is immediately when the two first mortar bombs landed. It was

11 taken directly from the Presidency side of -- I mean -- the tape you

12 showed was coming from the PTT side.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could just ask a question to

14 hurry things along.

15 Q. Mr. Gray, I've shown you all of that component?

16 A. But it's on a different tape and it's taken from a different angle

17 by a different crew.

18 Q. There are four tapes, if we can speak slowly, two of BBC tapes, is

19 it one of those two tapes?

20 A. I mean I'd have to look at it. I mean I could find it for you.

21 There's no problem about that.

22 MR. IERACE: The trouble is, Mr. President, I need those tapes

23 tonight to locate a final segment.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What we face at this very moment is the consequences

25 of something no one is to blame for is the late arrival of videotapes.

Page 19958

1 Let's see how far we come, that means we start tomorrow morning at 9.00.

2 We have the English transcript of the first episode to be shown available

3 so that it can be translated and the subsequent footages will drop in

4 consequently and if there's any other Mercedes or whatever footage to be

5 played, we'll see.

6 The Chamber is not very much inclined to try to rush into the

7 weekend and all parties are suffering from late arrival; therefore, we

8 should proceed cautiously.

9 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning 9.00 - with again the

10 apologies to the technical staff and the interpreters - in courtroom 2 and

11 may I instruct you, Mr. Gray, not to speak with anyone, not the parties,

12 not anyone else, about your testimony in this court and we'd like to see

13 you back tomorrow morning at 9.00.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

15 at 7.17 p.m. to be reconvened on Friday,

16 the 21st day of February 2003 at 9.00 a.m.