Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20075

1 Monday, 24 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Is the Defence ready to

10 continue the re-examination of the witness?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we are.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness,

13 Mr. Gray, into the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gray.

16 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

17 JUDGE ORIE: At least the weather did not oppose against having a

18 nice weekend. I hope you had.

19 Mr. Gray, may I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

20 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

21 THE WITNESS: Of course.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Your re-examination will be continued. Please

23 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.


25 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

Page 20076

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Gray.

2 A. Good day.

3 Q. Could you just bear with me for a few seconds? I'm referring to

4 your testimony of last Friday. Unfortunately, I can't refer to the page.

5 Do you remember that you were asked a certain number of questions

6 concerning the arrival of Mr. Douglas Hurd's convoy in the city of

7 Sarajevo and in particular, with regard to the problems of the elevations

8 from which the Serbs allegedly shelled? What you wanted to say at around

9 10.00 was something to do with what we call the primary in English, the

10 Prosecution interrupted you and said that they would return to that

11 subject, they never did so. What did you want to say exactly?

12 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please put a question to the

14 witness. There's no need to comment on the behaviour of the other party

15 while questioning the witness, if that is what you had in mind.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there's a second objection. You may

17 recall, Mr. President that on Friday in re-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin

18 sought to bring out in cross-examination this issue of the primaries which

19 was not a topic of cross-examination and I think, Mr. President, you ruled

20 that if Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked questions in relation to that issue, then

21 further cross-examination would be allowed so I don't know whether this

22 question is asked on that basis.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I

25 didn't make any kind of comment. All I did was indicate what happened so

Page 20077

1 that memory of the witness could be refreshed after an absence of 48 hours

2 and secondly, when the witness wanted to say something and when he wants

3 to be explicit it's necessary that he should do so. The Prosecution said

4 that they would return to that subject, they didn't, otherwise we would

5 have made the objection before, but I will leave the matter to you to

6 decide.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Since the matter does not result from

10 cross-examination, you are not entitled to do that. But I will ask

11 Mr. Gray. When you told us about the primary, what would you like to add?

12 What did you have in mind to add?

13 THE WITNESS: Okay. When I was standing at the very front

14 entrance to the Presidency building, I clearly heard -- and I have taken

15 courses and -- in mortars. I clearly heard the primary of a mortar going

16 off, a very short way from where the actual impacts took place. A primary

17 is a -- it's exactly that, I mean, it is like a shotgun cartridge in the

18 bottom of the tail fin of a mortar bomb and then you have around it other

19 charges to actually make the mortar go further.

20 I clearly heard the primaries of these mortar bombs and they were

21 very, very close and they were very clearly directed at a particular

22 target.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You could hear that they were directed to a

24 particular target; is that what you tell us?

25 THE WITNESS: I'm saying that they were so close that you could

Page 20078

1 hear -- you could actually hear the primary go off and then the bomb would

2 land a few seconds later.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the distance, approximately, if

4 you -- are you talking about 10 metres, 50 metres, 100 metres, 200 metres.

5 THE WITNESS: No, a primary would be -- a maximum distance for a

6 primary is 200 metres, that's it. End of story.

7 JUDGE ORIE: But at what distance did you hear it?

8 THE WITNESS: I heard it at approximately 50 metres away.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And in what direction.

10 THE WITNESS: It came -- if you have the Presidency building

11 there, and the front doors are there, and you have the main street here,

12 then they came from here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do I take it that since you're using your left arm

14 that -- if you are standing in front of the building that you are pointing

15 in the westerly direction?


17 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see anything?

18 THE WITNESS: Sorry?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see anything apart from hearing the primary?

20 THE WITNESS: I saw them land.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know, but firing.

22 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't actually see them, but they were just

23 down a street to the left of the Presidency building.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes and you say a couple of seconds later, after you

25 heard that, you tell us three, four, five, six?

Page 20079

1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, mortar bombs go straight up and they come

2 straight down.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes I'm not asking for -- I'm asking you for the

4 time.

5 THE WITNESS: Maybe five, six seconds.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Five, six seconds.

7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's all.

8 JUDGE ORIE: But I do understand your answer that apart from

9 hearing it and seeing them landing that you didn't saw them being fired?

10 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. With regard to the same subject, at about 10.25, you answered a

14 question put to you by the Prosecution. You were asked how do you know

15 that the shell couldn't have and we're talking about the market, couldn't

16 have hit a person, couldn't have fallen on a person? My question is as

17 follows: If a shell hit a person, could it have left traces on the ground

18 which would be similar to the ones that you found at this market near the

19 PTT building? Have you under the question?

20 A. I have. There would be -- when a mortar bomb goes off, I mean

21 it -- sorry, it explodes, irrespective of whether or not it hits a person

22 or it hits the ground, only the actual bomb, the explosive part actually

23 explodes. The tail fin is always left quite separately.

24 Q. Mr. Gray, my question was -- my question, Colonel, was whether the

25 crater that you found at the market could have been caused by a shell that

Page 20080

1 exploded after hitting the head or the shoulder of someone who was there

2 or perhaps this is not possible?

3 A. It is totally impossible.

4 Q. Thank you. I'm now interested in this ambush, the ambush of the

5 UN convoy which came under fire from Butmir, we spoke about this at about

6 10.30, you remember the video. They mentioned fighting that had been

7 going on for days and you said that you had negotiated a cease-fire. My

8 question is do you remember who you negotiated the cease-fire with and do

9 you remember what the purpose of the cease-fire was?

10 A. I negotiated the cease-fire with both sides, specifically to bring

11 the convoy in.

12 Q. I'll stop you there, thank you. Once you had negotiated this

13 cease-fire with the two sides, when you negotiated, did they indicate any

14 hours, did they say that it would be in force from a certain hour in the

15 morning to a certain hour in the afternoon, et cetera?

16 A. We negotiated the cease-fire in order to bring the convoy in at a

17 specific time. From my memory, it was 10.00 in the morning. The convoy

18 had been sitting at Lukavica barracks overnight.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, you said that in your opinion, that fire was

20 only coming from the Presidency side. My question is: Do you know

21 whether the enemy side responded and if so, what was targeted in this

22 response?

23 A. The fire came from the --

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object on the basis that the witness

25 has not been asked to distinguish between what he saw firsthand and what

Page 20081

1 information came to him from other sources.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, would you please specify your question in such

3 a way that we know what's the basis of the knowledge on which the witness

4 answers the question.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I will be

6 glad to do so.

7 Q. If you are able to answer this question, could you tell us what

8 information you have about this subject? Can you tell us what the origin,

9 the source of your knowledge is?

10 A. The fire came from Butmir, it was very clearly from one side. It

11 did not come from the Serb side. The Presidency side had a camera crew

12 there --

13 Q. Colonel, I apologise. I will stop you there. My question is:

14 How did you know this? Because I don't think you were in the convoy

15 itself so what is the source of your information?

16 A. I was interviewed and I had extensive questioning after the event

17 about the presence of camera crews at the actual location, I have --

18 Q. Who asked you these questions, Colonel?

19 A. They came from UNPROFOR headquarters.

20 Q. Thank you. Was there a written report which was compiled after

21 this incident and which was submitted to the authorities; yes or no?

22 A. Yes, there was.

23 Q. Witness, I'll go back to the question. According to information

24 that you had at the time, do you know whether the Serbian forces responded

25 to the fire?

Page 20082

1 A. They did not.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, how do you know, Mr. Gray, because that

4 was the issue? How did you know that they did not respond, not being

5 there?

6 THE WITNESS: Because I spoke to the people who actually -- the

7 people that were involved in the incident because fire was only coming

8 from one direction.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean the people involved in the incident.

10 THE WITNESS: The French soldiers.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I thought that I

13 was quite clear.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... In which he

15 said that he was interviewed and that it was not that clear and it was not

16 specifically on the response.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

19 Q. I'd like to go back to the issue of Lukavica. This was at about

20 11:21. You were asked questions about the targets in Lukavica, whether

21 they were legitimate or not and then you were asked about windows in

22 Lukavica, you were asked details about the windows in Lukavica; do you

23 remember these questions?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. My question is do you know whether some windows in the Lukavica

Page 20083

1 barracks were protected in a certain manner and if they were, how were

2 they protected, et cetera?

3 A. The windows were not protected and a number of them -- I mean, we

4 had one meeting where I signed an agreement with Professor Koljevic and we

5 had to have the meeting in the corridor of the building because we were

6 receiving so much -- I mean the building was physically shaking and the

7 shrapnel was coming through the windows at that time.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, at 12.06 I would like you to expand on what

9 you said. You said that you usually met General Galic when it was

10 necessary to establish a cease-fire. My question is with regard to

11 concluding a cease-fire, what was General Galic's attitude to cease-fires;

12 was he against it, was he in favour of it, et cetera?

13 A. He was most cooperative. I mean he was in favour of it.

14 Q. Thank you. How can you affirm this before this Trial Chamber?

15 A. He -- I mean, he enabled me to have a guided tour of all of the

16 weapons that were not under or currently under UN supervision. I mean, he

17 was most cooperative in doing all of this.

18 Q. Thank you. With regard to this subject, the Prosecution asked you

19 a question which was: How do you know that they showed you all their

20 heavy weapons? My question in relation to this matter is: Could you have

21 discovered these heavy weapons that you weren't aware of at the time if

22 the Serbian forces hadn't spontaneously pointed them out to you?

23 A. We had observers in a number of positions. I established beyond

24 the first five positions that we had for the Serbian side, we established

25 another two positions. This was in spite of the fact that I had lost a

Page 20084

1 number of observers because they had been wounded and we were aware,

2 beyond the ones that were agreed -- I mean they showed us, I mean they

3 agreed to show us these extra positions. We were aware that there were a

4 number of other ones but they were very, very small and -- I mean we were

5 aware of where the firing was coming from. We knew that. We could see

6 it. We can hear it.

7 Q. Thank you. Colonel, in relation to the issue of the PTT building,

8 you said that the building consisted of three basements; is that correct?

9 A. True.

10 Q. In your testimony, and on the tape that we saw, we had the

11 impression that there was a higher level with a window and I'd like you to

12 explain to us briefly something about how the land lies there because

13 normally in cellars, in basements, there are no windows.

14 A. The PTT was built up on a level. In order to actually enter the

15 front entrance of the PTT, you had to drive up a ramp on to a parking

16 level and that explains the three levels that were actually below it

17 because the levels went down and the front entrance was raised up. I wish

18 I had brought photos to actually explain this but they are on the

19 videotapes.

20 Q. Colonel, am I to understand that the building is on a slope which

21 allows different levels on different sides of the building?

22 A. The building was -- the subbasement levels were deliberately built

23 and the workshop level was obviously one of them, but they also had a

24 parking area under there as well. But the ramp that you can see in one of

25 the videos that I provided goes up and then you have the main building

Page 20085

1 which goes up for five storeys, there is another part of the building

2 which goes up for three storeys, but underneath the building, there are

3 three storeys.

4 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Colonel, you told us that Holiday Inn was

5 also used by snipers and hence my question: How do you know that? How

6 did they hide there and what did they use for this, what do you know about

7 that? And what did they target; do you know that?

8 A. They targeted human beings --

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have time to check the

10 transcripts thoroughly but my recollection is that the manner in which the

11 Holiday Inn came up was the witness' attention was drawn to a building

12 which he'd earlier seen on the video and at first he thought I was

13 referring to the Holiday Inn, his attention was then directed to what we

14 know to be the parliament building. If that's the case, if that's the

15 reference my learned colleague is referring to, then because it arose on

16 the basis of a misunderstanding by the witness, in my respectful

17 submission, that's not a proper topic for cross-examination because I

18 then, having directed the witness to the appropriate building, did not

19 pursue it, his misunderstanding.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to save time

22 which is available, let us move on to another issue.

23 Q. Witness, with regard to that tape that the Prosecution mentioned,

24 one could see people reacting after an attack and my question is as

25 follows: If the purpose -- if the attack is performed with incendiaries

Page 20086

1 and its purpose is to destroy with fire, what is usually called a sniper

2 nest, according to your military experience, wouldn't have been legitimate

3 to stop the enemy side to try to protect its sniper nest from such fire,

4 that is, by distinguishing the fire?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, correction. By extinguishing the fire?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you understand my question?

7 JUDGE ORIE: In the translation, it is said by distinguishing the

8 fire and I do understand that it's extinguishing the fire.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, you can

10 see it on the screen, Mr. President.

11 Q. Witness, did you understand the question or shall I rephrase it?

12 If I want to destroy a sniper nest, and if the enemy side wishes to

13 protect it by extinguishing the fire as a result of an incendiary bullet,

14 is it possible to prevent that? Is it possible to do something to prevent

15 that?

16 A. The fire that happened against the building that we saw in the

17 videotape, as far as I understand, came from the Presidency side.

18 Q. Witness, sorry, I'm asking you a question which is based on your

19 technical knowledge. Try, please, to follow me. If a side, whichever,

20 destroys a sniper nest by using incendiaries and if the other side wishes

21 to protect or to preserve this nest by extinguishing the fire, is it

22 possible to prevent such a firefighter's action by further action, by

23 further fire?

24 A. Yes, it would be.

25 Q. Thank you. I return to another question. The Ukranian Battalion,

Page 20087

1 you were asked in relation to the commentary, again on a story and you

2 were asked if you realised that it was incoming fire at that point or

3 rather a little bit before that, before you did not wait for the end of

4 the question, but within the same context, you wanted to draw attention to

5 the barracks in relation to the topography, to the exact locations, what

6 can you -- what was it that you wanted to tell us and what was that?

7 A. The Ukranians were based in Marsal Tito barracks and it was a very

8 unfortunate position for the Ukranian Battalion. They were immediately

9 targeted not by the Serbs, but they were targeted by the Presidency forces

10 and I go back to what I said before, the UN selection of battalions to --

11 Q. Witness, sorry, no, no, I'm sorry but I have to interrupt you.

12 But what we want to know is the topography. Why did you want to speak to

13 us about the location of the barracks?

14 A. The barracks are important because they are in the very centre of

15 Sarajevo and the location is very important because the -- the Serbs had

16 very little visibility of the actual barracks themselves. They were

17 totally blinded from the east and the west and the north and the only

18 place they could actually see them was from the south.

19 Q. You mean that there was no direct visibility?

20 A. Only from the south. Only from the south.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, there were -- there was talk about night

22 attacks and you were asked if you heard comments which spoke about

23 reprisals, so my question is as follows: Is it legitimate, militarily, if

24 an attack is launched at night to endeavour to stop it by gunfire? Be it

25 mortar or artillery fire which happens at night and in order to establish

Page 20088

1 exactly -- in view of the forces which are confronting you and which are

2 involved in this attack?

3 A. It is legitimate.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like us now to focus on what the

5 Prosecution called your theories regarding Muslims. In one of the

6 questions -- one of his questions, the Prosecutor clearly indicated that

7 you had some theories concerning the Muslims. When you used the term

8 "Muslims," within a particular context of the Sarajevo war, in which sense

9 did you use it; can you tell us that?

10 A. I used it in the sense that the Muslims were the predominant

11 element in the military factions who were fighting the Serbs.

12 Q. Thank you. And the Presidency side, the so-called Presidency

13 side, was it or not usually called that, that is, the Muslim party or the

14 Muslims during your tour of duty in Sarajevo; is that how they were

15 referred to usually?

16 A. They were normally referred to as the Presidency. That's why we

17 had the Papa side which was Presidency and then we had the Lima side which

18 was the Serb side and the Lima side was purely based on the fact that the

19 headquarters was based at Lukavica.

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any theory for or against the

21 Muslims; in other words, would you have a theory which would be racist or

22 not for or against the Muslims? Do you uphold any such theory?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. What do you mean?

25 A. This -- I'm sorry, this is extremely controversial, but I have to

Page 20089

1 say the Muslims were totally committed to expelling -- I won't go into the

2 more graphic ethnically cleansing, but they wanted to expel the Serbs from

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was their total purpose. They did a very good

4 job of it. They managed to attract international intervention and they

5 managed to win a war that they could not do by themselves.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, my question in French was somewhat different

7 but I believe -- is your answer -- are you a racist or do you support --

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question has been clearly

9 answered.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question

11 wasn't -- that was not my question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The question was to some extent unclear at least in

13 the English translation because -- I'll ask the witness about it.

14 Mr. Gray, you told us what, in your view, were the aims, whether

15 they were achieved, aims of the Muslims. Do you take this view on the

16 basis of what you saw happening or do you have certain ideas about why

17 people of the Muslim religion would do these kind of things?

18 THE WITNESS: Sir, I have the view from bitter experience. I have

19 seen what the Muslims and the Croats were doing. I have totally

20 contradictory evidence about one specific incident which I am more than

21 happy to relate to you in Court, but the fact is that from my time in the

22 former Yugoslavia, from the 23rd of March until the 1st of December when I

23 left Yugoslavia, my total conviction and understanding is that in Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina, the total aim and purpose of the Presidency forces or the

25 Muslim forces, whatever, was to expel --

Page 20090

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.

2 THE WITNESS: -- The Serbs.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You're now repeating what you said before. Let me

4 ask you, when you came to Bosnia, did you have a neutral opinion as to

5 Croats, Serbs, or Muslims or what was your view on these three ethnic

6 groups when arriving?

7 THE WITNESS: I had no knowledge of them whatsoever. I had been

8 given a script of the background to the 1991 war but I had -- I had no

9 formed opinion on --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That answers my question. Was that different

11 when you left and I'm not talking about what you saw people doing, but

12 your opinion as to the ethnic or religious background that would cause

13 people to do the things you observed them doing?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. It was definitely different.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you explain to me and to the Chamber what? I'm

16 asking you the following, as a matter of fact I will try to make a

17 comparison.


19 JUDGE ORIE: You can see that someone who comes from Spain, for

20 example, or a group of people coming from Spain behaving very badly. That

21 does not necessarily mean that Spanish people --

22 THE WITNESS: Are bad.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- are bad or are inclined to do bad things. So you

24 came with a relatively -- I would say neutral or a blank opinion as to the

25 three ethnic groups you mentioned: Croats, Muslims, Serbs, you saw, as

Page 20091

1 you told us, the Muslim forces pursue aims of expelling Serbs, and I do

2 understand that you consider this to be a bad behaviour. What, if any,

3 change this made in your opinion as to Muslim people? I'm asking you to

4 keep in mind what I said about Spanish people misbehaving, I'm not saying

5 that Spanish people misbehave but it's just as an example. Were you just

6 impressed but what they had done or did it change your opinion on what you

7 could expect from Muslim people?

8 THE WITNESS: Sir, in my five and a half months in Sarajevo, I had

9 11 of my officers wounded. Thankfully, none were killed.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you prefer to have a short break before continuing

11 your answer, because I see that it raises quite some emotion ...

12 THE WITNESS: I'll continue. I -- I'm sorry that I have to -- I

13 mean my opinion is based on experience and it was a very, very bitter

14 experience. I was spat at, stoned, shot at, shelled. I had people

15 making -- well, I mean, not nice gestures towards me, and I was there to

16 try and help them. That was all I was there to do and yet that was the

17 response I got. And so yes, that definitely formed an opinion of the

18 people who I was actually trying to help. On the other side, the Serb

19 side, I had nothing but cooperation and assistance.

20 When five of my observers got wounded in one incident by a 122

21 shell which came from the Croatian side, the Serbs actually assisted -- I

22 mean they went to a Serb hospital in Lukavica barracks and they were

23 assisted there and from there, they were evacuated out to Zagreb. But, I

24 mean, I had nothing but cooperation from the Serb side. I was never

25 threatened, never shot at. It was only -- I mean good cooperation and so

Page 20092

1 if you want to talk about forming an opinion and a feeling for the

2 situation, then that is what I have to say.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you briefly describe, since you told us that

4 when arriving, you had a neutral position, when leaving, after what you

5 told us to be bitter experiences, could you describe what your feeling in

6 view of people of Muslim ethnicity or Muslim religion was?

7 THE WITNESS: May I give you some background?

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't mind, I would prefer to first hear what

9 your opinion was when you left and of course if you'd like to explain why

10 you formed this opinion, you can do so.

11 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was very bitter about the treatment I had

12 received by the Muslims and by the Croats while I was in Sarajevo because

13 of the fact that they tried to kill me on many occasions and that has a

14 certain effect on you. But I go back to the background and say that in

15 1975 and -- to 1977 I lived in Singapore where there are a large number of

16 Muslims and that's fine and 1985 to 1987 I lived in Malaysia where there

17 are a large number of Muslims. I have no real problem with Muslims. It

18 was to do -- in terms of Sarajevo and Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was more to

19 do with the politics that were happening at that particular time and yes,

20 I was extremely upset at the fact that the UN in general were being

21 targeted by the people that they were actually there to try and help.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. There is two things we need to clarify. You told us about your

25 bitter experience, Colonel, and you told us how -- that you were treated

Page 20093

1 impossibly by the Muslim and the Croat side so my question is as follows:

2 Would you -- do you treat them in the same way, do you put the two of them

3 on the same level? And I'm referring to the treatment that you received

4 from the -- those two sides.

5 A. Yes, I do and -- no, same level.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, this will be my very last question: When

7 some questions were put to you about journalists and in particular about a

8 certain commentator, you said, and I'm quoting you from memory, [In

9 English] They got it wrong on several occasions or a certain number of

10 times," [Interpretation] You said something to that effect. Do you

11 remember that?

12 A. Yes, I do, definitely.

13 Q. My question is: Can you tell us exactly what you meant and

14 perhaps give us some specific examples where something said by a

15 journalist was contradicted by the actual situation, the actual facts

16 after an investigation had been carried out, for example?

17 A. The journalists came, they were tourists.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object, the questioning in

19 cross-examination related to particular journalists and a particular

20 institution they did not relate to journalists per se, journalists of a

21 particularly high reputation.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes and no, because we've

25 spoken about two journalists very frequently, a male journalist and a

Page 20094

1 female journalist and I think that the problem is to know what the witness

2 thinks since one attempted to contradict him in regard to the statements

3 made by both journalists.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Not in general

5 whether the --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm referring to what we spoke

7 about on Friday, these two particular journalists.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The question.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, in relation to the videos we saw on Friday, you said that

11 very often, journalists committed errors, what did you mean when you said

12 that and could you provide us with examples? Thank you.

13 A. The journalists made assumptions. They assumed that fire was

14 coming from one side or the other and in many cases that we observed and

15 we had observers everywhere on both sides, they got it wrong, and that is

16 why I find the reports that were made by very respected journalists to be

17 quite insulting to the -- the whole effort of the UN in Sarajevo. They

18 got it wrong and we were in a far better position because we had been

19 there for months. They came in for a few days or a few weeks and then

20 they left --

21 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. The answer does nothing to

22 address the concerns I raised earlier in which you ruled in my favour and

23 that is emphasized by the reference to journalists being there for a few

24 days or a few weeks, which seems to be a reference to journalists in a

25 very different category of those that we heard from in the video clips.

Page 20095

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, after you've

2 responded, I'd like to get the witness back to the subject of your

3 question.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the idea. I

5 wanted to ask the witness whether what he said also concerns those two

6 persons. That's all I wanted to clarify.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... You were asked

8 to give examples of where the two journalists from which we saw video

9 footings where they were wrong in what they reported, so not in general

10 but these two, for example, their report on this and this incident was

11 wrong for that and that reason.

12 THE WITNESS: Okay. The -- I'll give you one specific incident

13 and that is the so-called shelling of the market. They got it wrong

14 there. I mean I had very experienced officers who went and examined the

15 scene and there was no evidence to actually give any credence to the fact

16 that the market had been shelled or mortared. They found evidence that

17 indicated that a bomb had been placed there --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Gray, let me interrupt you. You have

19 explained to us that your experts established that it was a bomb and not a

20 shell that landed. So what you say to us is the BBC reporters were wrong

21 there because they ignored that it was a bomb and that they reported that

22 it was a shell.


24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 20096

1 Q. If you have another example, could you provide us with it? If

2 not, it doesn't matter.

3 A. Yes, I can. There was one incident, it happened at two minutes

4 past 8.00 p.m. On the 13th of July and the -- there had been a number

5 of --

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


8 MR. IERACE: I would be grateful if it would be clarified if this

9 relates to either Martin Bell or Kate Adie.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, are you giving an example in respect of

11 Mr. Bell or Ms. Adie.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall which one of them, I think it was

13 probably Kate Adie.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It was BBC.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. And what happened was that at two

16 minutes past 8.00 on the 13th of July, there were children, teenagers and

17 we had Canadian soldiers who were throwing sweets, lollies, I don't know

18 whatever you call them, candy, from the top -- the very top of the PTT

19 where we had the observation post established and they were throwing them

20 down to these teenagers down below us. And at two minutes past 8.00 on

21 the 13st of July we had 13 and 16 mortar bombs exploded, they were 82

22 millimetre, the whole building obviously shook, the mortar bombs landed

23 from a distance of two metres from the PTT building to a distance of 75

24 metres from the PTT building. I've got the report in my briefcase. We

25 did a crater analysis of those bombs and the actual report that I sent to

Page 20097

1 the headquarters in Zagreb was from the direction of fire that it came

2 from and taking it out to the maximum possible distance of 82 millimetre

3 mortar, it went Muslim, Serb, Muslim, Serb. So we could not tell who

4 actually fired those mortar bombs, we could not tell. We could not in all

5 honesty say who fired them, but the BBC certainly did. They laid the

6 blame clearly on the Serbs.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So you tell us that the reporting was wrong because

8 there was no proper basis for reporting that the 82 millimetre mortar

9 shells had been fired by, I take it, then the BBC reported that it was

10 from the Serbian side.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

13 Q. Colonel, before I thank you for your testimony, could you tell us

14 what the consequences of these shots were in terms of the casualties, in

15 terms of the number of dead if there were any?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object, the basis is relevance.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, may I ask you where we are -- we

18 shifted now from wrongly reporting to one of these examples and the

19 consequences, I do not mind but I would like you to be aware that it has

20 hardly anything to do with the cross-examination. But the witness may

21 answer the question.

22 Mr. Gray, do you know what, in terms of human lives the

23 consequences of the shelling were?

24 THE WITNESS: I personally carried off the street a teenage boy

25 who had both his legs blown off below the knee. I also held --

Page 20098

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object and I wish to say something

2 further in relation to the objection in the absence of the witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, may I ask you to escort the witness for

4 one second out of the courtroom.

5 Mr. Gray.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might we move into private session?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have visitors in the public gallery, we

10 first would have to ask them to leave the public gallery since we cannot

11 shield that off when we are in private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 20099












12 Pages 20099 to 20102 redacted private session














Page 20103

1 [Open session]

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Is the public gallery open again? It should be

4 certain that those who were following the proceedings are in the position

5 to come to the public gallery again. Yes.

6 Mr. Gray, you have been asked a question about casualties on an

7 occasion where soldiers had been giving sweets to -- well, children,

8 teenagers. You have been asked about the casualties and we noticed that

9 this, of course, might cause you to, going back to that time, to undergo

10 emotional moments again. In your absence, one of the aspects we have

11 discussed is whether there's any disagreement between the parties as to

12 whether kids had been killed at that occasion. The parties do not

13 disagree on that so therefore, also in order to save you to undergo again

14 these emotions, you don't have to answer that question unless you would

15 say it's totally wrong what you say, kids were not killed, but I take it

16 that you are telling us that how you personally experienced what happened

17 to these kids.

18 We are not asking you to go any further because we are aware of

19 what that could mean to you and since the parties do not disagree, Court

20 will assume that at that occasion, young people were killed, since the

21 parties do not disagree.

22 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've finished

24 with this answer. I just wanted to thank the witness for his testimony.

25 JUDGE ORIE: He's not finished today, there might be some

Page 20104

1 questions for you both from the Bench and from the Prosecution but we'll

2 first have a break until 11.00.

3 THE WITNESS: Can I just make one comment about that particular

4 incident? I mean I think the Defence counsel were talking about

5 misreporting by the media.


7 THE WITNESS: This was reported very clearly as being an attack by

8 the Serbs. We were there. We did the investigation, and we couldn't

9 determine because of --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, you told us that. You said it was Serb,

11 Muslim, Serb, Muslim, so you could not establish whereas the report did.


13 JUDGE ORIE: We have not seen the report but we do understand

14 your testimony to be that they gave information --

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we break, the witness did

16 mention that he had a report in relation to this incident. I don't know

17 that I've seen that report perhaps I could have a look at it over the

18 break.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Is there -- did you bring any report with you?

20 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't bring that particular report with me,

21 I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is it your report to Zagreb that you indicated. But

23 you haven't brought it with you?

24 THE WITNESS: No, a report was made to Zagreb about the actual

25 incident and it was then passed on to the UN headquarters in New York but

Page 20105

1 I -- I think I probably got it on a computer disc which the Defence have,

2 I mean I've given them five computer discs.

3 JUDGE ORIE: But it's not something you could retrieve

4 immediately.

5 MR. IERACE: Just to clarify that, Mr. President, five computer

6 discs, we've seen one and perhaps the number of videos could be clarified

7 because I still haven't been able to find on the four video discs two of

8 the passages given to us by the Defence if we could just clarify that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: How many discs did you give to the Defence? You said

10 five.

11 THE WITNESS: There were two CDs, one of which has got -- because

12 all of the work was done on WordPerfect 5.1 at the time in 1992, okay.

13 There is one CD which has got actual WordPerfect on it and then there is

14 another CD which has got a copy of the five computer discs that -- three

15 and a half floppy discs that I've given to them as well and I believe I

16 actually gave them five videotapes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just -- first you said one CD with all

18 the WordPerfect 5.1 --


20 JUDGE ORIE: -- files. Yes, that's what we used in these times,

21 isn't it? Then you said five floppy discs transferred into another CD.

22 What would be on that other CD? Would that be the same or different,

23 would it be text would it be --

24 THE WITNESS: No, it is all text and --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Text created by yourself.

Page 20106

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's all from me.


3 THE WITNESS: And there is one of the --

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you would allow me just to interrupt you. Is that

5 text on the second CD and the first one being with WordPerfect 5.1 files,

6 that second CD would that be different text from the first one you just

7 mentioned?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, it will be and there is one extra --

9 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us in what format, what under what

10 software these texts are created.

11 THE WITNESS: They are all in WordPerfect 5.1.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So on both CDs, we would find WordPerfect 5.1 files

13 but with a different content.

14 THE WITNESS: No, the first CD has got the actual programme file

15 for WordPerfect 5.1.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the second one --

17 THE WITNESS: And the second one has got four of the five discs

18 actually recorded on to it, transferred on to it because I wanted to make

19 sure that there were two copies and there is one, a further fifth disc

20 which is not on the CD.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I will repeat, one CD with the WordPerfect

22 5.1 programme software, another CD on which is transferred the content of

23 four floppy discs containing WordPerfect 5.1 files, and a fifth floppy

24 disc not being transferred on that CD-ROM but still available?


Page 20107

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then about videotapes, how many did you provide

2 to the Defence?

3 THE WITNESS: I recall that I provided five videotapes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you still have copies of them?

5 THE WITNESS: No I just brought them with me and --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Not four, five.

7 THE WITNESS: I believe there were five.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I invite the parties to discuss during the

9 break what is -- what has been disclosed, what has not been disclosed.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President. I actually raised that with the

11 Defence this morning. I'm assured that they only received four. I would

12 be grateful if we could have access to those four videotapes as soon as

13 possible when they're no longer needed in Court so that we can make copies

14 of them in order for us to discover if they are on those tapes or not.

15 That's an issue we'll have to deal with when it's witness leaves but at

16 least if we can have access to copy them.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes I think that would be a fair request and I see

18 the Defence is nodding yes, so the Chamber expects the parties to

19 cooperate in this respect.

20 Mr. Gray, we'll not adjourn until 11.00, but until five minutes

21 past 11.00. Thank you.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we discussed

Page 20108

1 the matter of exhibits with the Prosecution during the break. What we can

2 say here that when the witness gave us four floppy discs, that is true,

3 but the information that we received from him at the time was that these

4 floppy discs were taken over to CDs and we were able to open these

5 floppy -- we were not able to open these floppy discs perhaps because of

6 the programme or perhaps because there was something else there. We do

7 not know. But at any rate, those floppy discs that we still have them and

8 they are of course at the disposal of the Prosecution.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Presumably still in the hands of the witness.

10 MR. IERACE: No, I think the Defence is saying they've got them

11 and we weren't told about them before today. We were given four videos

12 and one CD. We were told the Defence couldn't open the CD. We managed to

13 open it and we gave the Defence copies of all of the documents that we

14 were able to obtain from the CD.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first check whether I rightly understood

16 the observations by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 It's not entirely clear to me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm just looking

18 to the English transcript at this moment. You said that you received four

19 floppy discs.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Four or five, four or five.

21 We need to check it because I cannot really tell you off the cuff how

22 many.

23 JUDGE ORIE: They are taken over to a CD, did you do that or did

24 the witness provide you with the CD?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, the CD is one of the two

Page 20109

1 that we just talked about. At the time we understood that all of the

2 material had been copied to those CDs.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The case and

4 that therefore, the one who is in possession of the fifth floppy

5 disc -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution was only given one CD.

7 It seems the Defence is saying they received from the witness two CDs and

8 five floppy discs.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: One of the CDs as the witness explained to us is just

11 WordPerfect 5.1 which is a programme which is not generally installed on

12 computers anymore as it was in 1992 so one is just the programme software

13 and the other CD is assumed to contain the content of the four floppy

14 discs but not of the fifth and so the most important thing now is to find

15 out where is the fifth floppy disc?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We shall check. Perhaps there

17 are, indeed, five and we shall check whether this last one, whether -- we

18 are not sure whether there are four or five floppy discs and whether

19 perhaps they are here in The Hague.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Did not take the

21 effort to provide the fifth floppy disc if you have it because you

22 expected it to be on the second CD-ROM.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed that was the

24 information that we believe to have received, yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And the second issue is about the videotapes. Is

Page 20110

1 there any comparison as to what the Defence thinks it has and what the

2 Prosecution thinks it has?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, from what we

4 know, on the tapes that we saw in full or in part, there is frequent

5 repetition. There are things which are repeated, and what we have done

6 was put -- place all these tapes to the Prosecution, and we shall do it in

7 the afternoon so they can go through all of them and check them.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Perhaps not yet

9 settled but at least this issue being proceeded we could then continue

10 with the examination of the witness.

11 Mr. Ierace, since you asked to cross-examine the witness on those

12 issues that have come up for the first time in the re-examination, perhaps

13 it would be proper to start with that and then hear whether there are any

14 questions from the Bench and then the parties then get an opportunity to

15 respond to -- if necessary, to put additional questions on those issues

16 raised by the Bench.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


19 MR. IERACE: Just while the witness is being brought in, might I

20 suggest a procedure in relation to the tendering of the videotapes?

21 If -- I understand that one of Mr. Gray's original videotapes has already

22 been tendered. If the other one is formally tendered, then after the

23 Prosecution has made copies, they could supplant the tendered ones which

24 could then be returned to Mr. Gray by mail or however is convenient.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think

Page 20111

1 at least for the Defence we tendered the original of a tape but we are not

2 quite sure. Perhaps the Prosecution didn't quite understand us because

3 what we said was that we had made a selection and presented -- that we

4 produced it on one tape with eight or nine different fragments which is

5 not the original provided by Mr. Gray. We simply copied it to a different

6 tape.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that this -- that you intend to tender this

8 videotape containing those elements that you thought relevant from the

9 tapes provided to you by Mr. Gray.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think what's happened is that the

11 original Gray tape with the brown Mercedes clip has been tendered. We

12 have made a tape with just that clip so already, that could replace the

13 full videotape that Madam Registrar presently has.


15 MR. IERACE: I think the important thing is that we are able to

16 retain the two original BBC tapes until such time as they are copied and

17 then they can be returned. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it -- but that's apart from tendering

19 these tapes, that they should be copied so that we have a copy of the full

20 Gray tapes available for consultation for the parties and that you are

21 going to tender the extracts thought to be relevant.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I also ask you, the full version of the -- what I

24 would call the night attack on the Presidency parliamentary building, is

25 that already prepared?

Page 20112

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the best copy that we've been able to

2 make of the relevant part of that segment is still of a very poor quality,

3 in particular, there are some horizontal lines which appear on the copy

4 and which do not appear on the original which is quite confusing when

5 one's looking at the tracer fire.


7 MR. IERACE: I would therefore respectfully suggest that you look

8 at the relevant part of that clip on the original Gray tape. We have

9 prepared a full transcript of that part of the clip; in other words, the

10 shooting of the parliamentary building and I might add while I'm on my

11 feet, over the weekend we've already prepared a translation of the brown

12 Mercedes clip, all of that clip.


14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The problem, Mr. President, is

15 to know what will be finally be tendered. If it is only the night attack

16 then one cannot tender obviously --

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I take it that

18 a -- perhaps in the near future a better copy of that segment can be made

19 but at least we'd like to see in this court at this moment the -- that

20 part of the original. Could it be identified for the technical booth if

21 it could be played that we know where to find it.

22 MR. IERACE: I think we've made some identification of that, I

23 used the word "translation" of the brown Mercedes clip, translation should

24 have been transcription.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes this transcript is then ready to be translated by

Page 20113

1 the interpreters if necessary.

2 Mr. Ierace, in order to avoid a lot of confusion and -- could you

3 tell us what subjects you consider to be appropriate to address in a

4 further cross-examination.

5 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The issue of the primaries, that

6 is if I can refer to it in that shorthand fashion.


8 MR. IERACE: And secondly the witness has said for the first time

9 that in relation to the -- what we might call the French convoy, the

10 convoy had been sitting at Lukavica barracks over night and was due to

11 come into Sarajevo at 10.00 a.m. and that is -- that stands contradicted

12 by Kate Adie who referred to the French convoy coming in at dusk the night

13 before so I wish to question him about that.

14 Mr. President, in relation to the events of the 13th of July,

15 naturally the Prosecution will seek to obtain from the BBC a copy of their

16 report in relation to that incident. There are some questions I could ask

17 of the witness as to how the teenagers came to be there, I can tell you

18 what I understand to be the situation. That could turn out to be relevant

19 to the contents of the BBC clip. Of course by the time we get that,

20 Mr. Gray will no longer be here. The questions I would put to him on that

21 issue are drawn from General MacKenzie's book so an alternative may be if

22 we get the BBC report, we then tender that with General MacKenzie's

23 account as taken from his book.

24 If you like, Mr. President, I can tell you in summary form what

25 that account is.

Page 20114

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I've got one problem if you would do so,

2 that is, that if at a later stage the witness for whatever reason would be

3 recalled, that it's on the public transcript what we --

4 MR. IERACE: We can do it in private session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I heard that

7 the Prosecution intended to do two things. First, concerning the incident

8 of the humanitarian convoy, the contradiction between the daybreak and the

9 position of the witness was treated during the cross-examination by

10 Mr. Ierace and I -- if I remember that the witness has said something, I'm

11 not quoting, but I think that that is what he said and that he said

12 clearly when that was. That is quite clear.

13 As for the PTT incident, we, at the Defence, appreciate in

14 particular, that is, we bore in mind the personality of this witness. We

15 saw him. To go back to that would really be achieving again, the same

16 effect and again the Defence would like to spare this witness any further

17 distress, thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The witness

19 testified, as far as I can see: "Okay, I actually arranged for a

20 cease-fire with the warring parties. You can see from the video pictures

21 I mean it was an -- an arranged for a specific time for that convoy to

22 actually come through. You can see from the pictures that it was broad

23 daylight and the convoy was deliberately targeted, I mean it was clearly

24 identifiable," so the witness says that it appears from the video does

25 this broad daylight so there seems there is a possible contradiction and I

Page 20115

1 think it could be clarified in one or two questions so that would not be

2 something we -- the Chamber would not allow.

3 And then as far as the second issue is concerned, are we in --

4 THE REGISTRAR: Open session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We turn it to private session so will that Mr. Ierace

6 can explain what -- because the if the parties agree on how the teenagers

7 got there --

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 20116












12 Page 20116 redacted private session














Page 20117

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session, again. So could you tell us

11 whether you know anything specific about why these youngsters were there?

12 THE WITNESS: It was a beautiful sunny day in July, obviously, and

13 the youngsters were -- I mean they were teenagers between 16 and 18, I

14 would say. The Canadian troops who were actually on top of the fifth

15 floor of the PTT -- I mean there was no shelling, there was no -- no war

16 activity actually happening at the time and that's why it was unusual.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


19 MR. IERACE: It may assist I think the witness may have

20 misunderstood the question not so much why they were on the ground outside

21 the building.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Mr. Gray, were they accidentally gathered

23 together there or was this group constituted in one way or another of

24 which you have any knowledge?

25 THE WITNESS: No, they were accidentally there.

Page 20118

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I then confront you with what

2 General MacKenzie writes in a book that is that these youngsters were of a

3 group that was exchanged Serbians against -- let me just read it to you,

4 "What made matters worse was that most of the teenagers had come to the

5 PTT in a population exchange organised earlier in the day by Richard Gray.

6 He had delivered some Serbs to Lukavica in exchange had brought back a

7 load of people including the teenagers who wished to return to downtown

8 Sarajevo."


10 JUDGE ORIE: That's true. So they were not accidentally there but

11 they were there as a result of an exchange of population.

12 THE WITNESS: But I had brought them back earlier on in the day so

13 I mean there was a time lapse between me bringing them back and them

14 actually being at the PTT.

15 JUDGE ORIE: At what time did you -- how long did they stay there

16 before the shells fell.

17 THE WITNESS: I had brought them back earlier on several hours

18 beforehand but I -- one of the young women who was actually killed, I

19 physically recognised her clothing, I mean I recognised her, I mean she

20 was quite badly -- I mean she was killed. But I mean this happened at

21 8.00 at night and the exchange that took place happened earlier on in the

22 day and maybe mid-day, very early afternoon. I mean maybe 1.00 in the

23 afternoon. But I mean that happened -- a number of hours before this

24 actually happened.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Gray.

Page 20119

1 Mr. Ierace has one or more questions for you.

2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ierace:

4 Q. Mr. Gray, in relation to the use of primaries when firing mortars,

5 is it your understanding that the purpose of the primary is to ignite the

6 charges however many there may be, in the tube?

7 A. They are actually around the tail fin of the actual mortar.

8 Q. Yes. And have you ever fired a mortar on its primary alone?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. Whereabouts did you do that?

11 A. I did that in Waiouru in New Zealand.

12 Q. Could you please spell that for the benefit of the transcribers?

13 A. It's W-a-i-o-u-r-u.

14 Q. Was it explained to you that a mortar should only be fired on its

15 primary in an emergency?

16 A. Yes. A primary -- I mean you only fire a mortar on primary when

17 you are under immediate attack.

18 Q. Yeah. And correct me if I am wrong, that's because they are not

19 nearly so accurate when fired just on the primary and there is a degree,

20 an element or degree of danger when firing on the primary?

21 A. They are more accurate when they are on primary. They have a

22 shorter distance in terms of the impact but they are actually more

23 accurate because the more charges you use with a mortar, the further it

24 goes, the higher it goes, the less accurate it is at the other end.

25 Q. I'd like to suggest to you that your understanding is quite

Page 20120

1 incorrect. Specifically when a mortar is fired on its primary it is far

2 less accurate than if it is fired with charges.

3 A. That is incorrect.

4 Q. Did you tell General MacKenzie what you have told us in court in

5 relation to the primaries; in other words, that you heard two sounds that

6 you concluded were primaries seconds before the two mortars landed?

7 A. I believe I did.

8 Q. When did you do that?

9 A. I did that immediately after, I mean as I told you in the Court on

10 Friday, I told him immediately after the meeting, I went back and I made a

11 verbal report to him and then I made a written report.

12 Q. And I suppose at the time, you appreciated how important that

13 information was because in your mind it was conclusive proof that it had

14 been -- the mortars had been fired --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have the

17 impression that we are moving to another subject which has been dealt with

18 extensively, that of the relationship between the witness and

19 General MacKenzie after this incident and we're no longer discussing the

20 technique involved in primaries.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Is not -- has

22 not come up I think new in cross-examination -- in re-examination,

23 Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this relates specifically to the

25 primaries whether he told General MacKenzie that he had heard the

Page 20121

1 primaries --

2 JUDGE ORIE: That answer has been given if I'm correct, the

3 witness said "I believe I did".

4 MR. IERACE: Yes. And this question, Mr. President, goes to

5 whether he indeed is sure that he would have because of its importance.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's then the last question on the issue you may

7 put to the witness.

8 MR. IERACE: As you please, Mr. President.

9 Q. I suppose at the time you appreciated the importance of your

10 observation because, in your mind, it established that the mortars had

11 been fired from the Presidency side of the confrontation lines; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. We were -- excuse me, we were running a sweepstake on this

16 particular event.

17 Q. Mr. Gray you told us about the sweepstake. Now, you also, this

18 morning, were asked some questions about the humanitarian aid convoy

19 operated by French troops that were shot at when it arrived at Sarajevo

20 and you said this morning, "The convoy had been sitting at Lukavica

21 barracks overnight and was due to come in at 10.00 a.m.," is that

22 correct?

23 A. True.

24 Q. Do you remember -- excuse me, Mr. President, that Kate Adie on the

25 voiceover for this incident referred to the French convoy being shot at as

Page 20122

1 it approached at dusk the day before?

2 A. No, I don't recall that.

3 Q. I think her words were, "These men were part of a routine UN

4 convoy from Belgrade, 35 vehicles nearing Sarajevo airport at dusk

5 yesterday."

6 Mr. Gray, I think you've told us you weren't there, you didn't see

7 the convoy approach. Do you dispute that it, in fact, arrived at dusk and

8 not at 10.00 a.m. in the morning?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think the witness has

12 repeated, on several occasions, his answer to this question. He's

13 provided a clear answer to this question.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't know where Mr. Piletta-Zanin

15 gets that from, since the time issue only arose this morning.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm referring to "broad

17 daylight," Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


20 Q. Do you dispute that the convoy was shot at as it arrived at dusk?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. You say that it arrived at 10.00 a.m.; is that correct?

23 A. I'm saying that it arrived in broad daylight and it was not at

24 dusk. You can have it. I mean look at the video.

25 Q. Mr. Gray, do you know -- I withdraw that. What was your

Page 20123

1 information as to when, that is, what time of day, the convoy was shot at?

2 A. I don't recall.

3 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or

5 more questions for you.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like the

8 clip on the brown Mercedes be shown to the witness, but only one of the

9 images, not the complete clip. I think that the technical booth knows

10 that. Okay. That's the picture.

11 Mr. Gray, you told us that to the right-hand side was the building

12 of the Presidency.

13 A. True.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Well, do you know which building is the one

15 that you can see behind the trees at the right-hand side? It's -- not

16 yellow but ...

17 A. There are two buildings there is the Presidency building

18 and -- which is -- it's actually shielded by the vehicles you can see on

19 the right-hand side of the screen and then there is another building where

20 I had my -- the Papa headquarters was actually based. I know because I

21 was in that building and I actually helped to put the antenna up on the

22 actual roof of that building. But the Presidency building is the one to

23 the right-hand side and it's shielded basically by the vehicles which are

24 moving away from where the mortar attack happened.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In fact, we can't see the Presidency building.

Page 20124

1 A. No, you can't. You can't see it. You can't actually see it.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. Gray. You are an experienced

3 artillery officer, aren't you?

4 A. No, I have experience with mortars, I have worked with artillery

5 many times but I mean I am -- well, I was an infantry officer but I have

6 done courses with both artillery and with mortars.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Well, if, in theory, I'm talking in theory, if

8 you are in front of a building used by snipers, how can you get rid of the

9 snipers? Which weapon would you use in that case?

10 A. I would use any weapon that was at my disposal in order to

11 actually get rid of them, whether it be by tank fire, whether it would be

12 by small arms fire. I wouldn't try to use mortars because it doesn't

13 really work that well because mortars come directly down. I would use

14 artillery but probably not mortars, but I mean I would use anything at my

15 disposal to actually get rid of the sniper.

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You mentioned the other day that there were

17 two agreements, big ones, agreements, and you said the following, "The

18 second agreement was not honoured by the UN."

19 A. True.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you elaborate a little bit on that?

21 A. Yes. When General MacKenzie withdrew from -- by I mean he

22 withdrew himself from Sarajevo, there was a vacuum created and we had a

23 French chief of staff, Colonel d'Avout, a very nice man but he was a chief

24 of staff not a commander so we had this vacuum and so nothing was

25 happening, the war was going on but we had the airport agreement and then

Page 20125

1 we had the agreement for the concentration of weapons and I decided that

2 something had to be done so I went out and I concluded in August and

3 September a second agreement for the concentration of all heavy weapons

4 and that was concluded in August and September.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. Gray. No further questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for

7 you.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to thank

9 you for the effort you have made and for the information that you have

10 provided us with. There are a few questions that I would like to ask you

11 and in fact it's a matter of verifying certain matters. If I have

12 understood you correctly, my first question has to do with the shelling of

13 the building where you and some UN members were present, where you were

14 shelled at. If I have understood you correctly, you said that you had

15 asked for an explanation from the commander or deputy commander on the

16 Serb side who was located in Nedzarici. You asked him why he had shelled

17 the building and he replied that that building was close to the

18 confrontation line. Have I understood you correctly?

19 A. The building was on the confrontation line, it was actually part

20 of the front line.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right,

22 exactly. So in responses to the questions put to you, you said that there

23 were forces that gathered from this building in order to prepare possible

24 attacks but if I've understood you correctly, if I have understood the

25 answer of the commander of the Serbian forces who told you that this

Page 20126

1 building was part of the confrontation line, he wasn't speaking about the

2 preparation of troops or he wasn't speaking on the basis of knowledge of

3 troops getting ready because you lived in that building and you yourself

4 were able to see these troops gathering.

5 Did the Serb commander know about what was being prepared in this

6 building?

7 A. Yes, he did. As I explained, I think, on Friday, the -- this --

8 these buildings, I mean, were like this and they formed -- it was a --

9 what in military terms we call a forming-up place, I mean this is where

10 the troops actually formed behind the buildings and they actually attacked

11 Nedzarici from behind these buildings.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but my problem is that the

13 commander told you, the question itself revealed that you were wondering

14 what the reason was and that's why he responded, why he told you, well,

15 the building is on the confrontation line. The problem is that if you

16 were aware of the fact that there were forces who were gathering or

17 getting prepared in this building, it would have been normal for this

18 building to be shelled so your question shows that you wanted to find out

19 about this. I don't know if I'm clear. Is my question clear or would you

20 like me to be more specific, elaborate on it?

21 A. I have described this building a number of times and the building

22 was being used by snipers which were firing at Nedzarici, that is why the

23 fire came back at the buildings and that is why the civilians moved from

24 the front apartments to the rear apartments. Mine was a rear apartment.

25 But I mean there were armoured personnel carriers, there were lots, lots

Page 20127

1 of -- I mean a great number of soldiers and they were fighters for the

2 Presidency side who were -- who formed up behind these buildings and then

3 attacked Nedzarici.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but my problem

5 is that I still have the same problem. The question is: Since you were

6 aware of all these details, why did you, yourself, as a military man, why

7 did you ask the Serbian commander the reason for which he had shelled this

8 building, given that on the basis of your testimony, it's obvious that it

9 was a military target and it was quite normal for this building to be

10 targeted?

11 What I myself don't understand, since I'm not a military person, I

12 don't understand -- the question that you put to the commander, you wanted

13 to know the reason for which the building had been shelled but you are

14 quite aware of the fact that it was a military target. So I want to know

15 why you put this question to the Serbian commander.

16 A. Okay. I understand your question. The reason that I put the

17 question to the deputy commander for Nedzarici was that we had UN flags

18 hanging outside the buildings in clear view of the forces in Nedzarici so

19 they knew that UN personnel were actually living in those buildings. That

20 was the reason why I asked them.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but my question stands

22 because you were aware of the fact that it was a military target and that

23 it was legitimate to shell it and this is why your question seemed to me

24 to be something that I couldn't understand but I'll move on to another

25 subject.

Page 20128

1 You said that in relation to the bombing or the bomb that was

2 planted at the market, you said that you sent two of your officers there,

3 a Canadian and an Australian in order to carry out an investigation. My

4 question is: Was it customary, was it a rule, was it the rule that after

5 each bombing, a UN commission would be formed and an investigation would

6 be carried out, there would be a report for each incident or was this not

7 customary and did you decide to launch an investigation into this

8 particular incident?

9 A. It was customary that for -- because this had I mean so much media

10 attention. I mean routine shelling did not attract this sort of attention

11 by the UN. I mean it -- shelling was shelling and so -- but this one was

12 specific and it was important that because of the attention that had been

13 given to it by the media, that we actually had a very, very close look at

14 it.

15 Some of the shelling that happened was outside the view of -- I

16 mean we could see it, but I mean it was outside the immediate area that we

17 could actually attend and provide attention to or investigate, but this

18 one was very close to the PTT. It received a lot of media attention and

19 so it was thoroughly investigated and reports were given to Zagreb and the

20 UN headquarters in New York.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I understand you correctly,

22 a certain period of time elapsed between the incident and the response of

23 the media -- yes, you were about to say?

24 A. I'm saying that the media were there almost -- I mean they were

25 there immediately. I mean they were there -- I mean they took photos. I

Page 20129

1 mean it -- I'm sure it's on one of the videotapes. They were there almost

2 as it happened and they were lucky that they were not actually injured or

3 killed in the actual incident. They were there immediately and my

4 officers who went there to investigate it, they were there within an hour,

5 hour and a half, maximum.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right, to avoid any

7 misunderstanding, you are saying that your reaction was due or was egged

8 on by the media because the media were reporting the incident and that you

9 then reacted -- and you reacted then. So I presume that normally there

10 should be an interval but that you actually were abreast of what the media

11 were saying and therefore, your decision came to send officers to

12 investigate the accident. I was asking you and you said that no, it was

13 immediately. From what you remember, how long -- how much time elapsed

14 between the incident and your intervention?

15 A. It was probably an hour, an hour and a half between -- the media

16 had satellite dishes, I mean they were -- they would take something from

17 an incident and they would take it immediate -- the television building is

18 immediately adjacent to the PTT and those pictures -- plus they also had a

19 satellite dish set up at the PTT as well. So I mean those images were

20 beamed out almost immediately that something had happened, and I mean we

21 could -- we could watch it on the TV that I had in the PTT and it was

22 important not only because of that but -- I mean I was directed to get an

23 investigation team there as soon as possible and so that's when I sent the

24 Australian artillery officer and the Canadian mortar officer, I sent them

25 there immediately to do an investigation as people were still mopping up

Page 20130

1 the blood and clearing away people.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right, but were they the same

3 officers whom you sent whenever something happened? What I mean is did

4 they conduct other investigations prior to that particular incident or was

5 it, from what you can remember, the first time they did that?

6 A. No, I think it was the -- probably the first time they did it and

7 then the 13th of July incident happened after that.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. Now, I'd like to move on

9 to another subject and that has to do with the incident which took place

10 on the day when Sir Douglas Hurd arrived in Sarajevo. I'd like to

11 understand you correctly. You said that you were in front of the door at

12 the Presidency and that you heard shots, that is the impact, the

13 primaries, I believe is the term, the English term is primaries, so you

14 heard them and you were able to identify the firing point at a distance of

15 200 metres.

16 A. It was less than that.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How much?

18 A. I would say that it may have been 50, 75 metres away, maximum. I

19 could hear them -- they were -- they were -- I mean the mortars were down

20 a side street just by the Presidency, okay, and they fired directly over a

21 building and they -- you have to hear a primary to actually know what it

22 sounds like but I mean it is very distinctive.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. So they were behind a

24 building?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20131

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you thought that in order to

2 hear that sound, how many seconds does it take to get the sound, that is,

3 what I mean is after how many seconds did you hear the impact?

4 A. When you're firing a mortar bomb just on the primary cartridge

5 which is actually inside the base of the actual mortar bomb, and you're

6 only firing it on primary and it goes maximum 200 metres, the time of

7 flight is probably about 10 seconds.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. And you therefore heard

9 it one, two seconds after the shell exploded?

10 A. No, I heard the primary -- I mean the people who were standing

11 with me right at the front entrance, they moved inside because they knew

12 that something was going to happen. The police, they weren't soldiers,

13 they were police, who were forming the so-called honour guard --

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, witness, to interrupt

15 you, but I merely wanted or rather I wanted you to establish material

16 facts of this because you made a value judgement. You said people knew

17 and that is why they retreated but if we only keep to what happened, just

18 that, nothing else, you said that you heard -- that you had heard what one

19 calls a primary and then after -- and after that, how long -- how much

20 time did elapse before you saw the explosion?

21 A. It was about five or ten seconds. It was a very short distance

22 away.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So in point of fact, you could

24 not -- you could hear only one primary because the second one was launched

25 immediately after it?

Page 20132

1 A. No, there were two primaries. I mean there were two bombs that

2 landed. One landed -- one landed and then approximately 30 seconds later,

3 another bomb landed. The people who were trying to actually help the

4 person who was in the Mercedes, they were caught by the second bomb and

5 then about 30 seconds later, from nowhere, an ambulance arrived and picked

6 up all of the bodies and took them away to Kosovo hospital.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And during that time, you stayed

8 in the front entrance of the Presidency?

9 A. Yes, I did, yes.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My last question is you answered

11 it already, but I'd like to make sure, I'd like to make sure. You,

12 personally, were you targeted personally or were you targeted as a

13 representative of the United Nations? That is, was it your person or were

14 you the -- a member, a representative of the United Nations, what is your

15 feeling about it? What do you think?

16 A. The answer to your question is that I was targeted personally, I

17 have given death threats --

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but were you, as yourself or

19 because you were representing an international organisation? Was it your

20 personality or was it because you were a representative of the United

21 Nations or was it you yourself?

22 A. It was both because, I mean, I deliberately arranged for a

23 cease-fire with the warring sides and they knew precisely at what time I

24 was travelling across the airport to go to Lukavica to actually have a

25 meeting. They knew that precisely. They knew I would be in the armoured

Page 20133

1 personnel carrier and they deliberately fired at me. That was a personal

2 attack.

3 On other occasions, I was targeted because I was part of the UN

4 body in UNPROFOR in Sarajevo.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you cannot really distinguish,

6 was it your person that was targeted or was it as a representative of the

7 UN that you are targeted, is that your answer that you cannot really say

8 whether there was any difference between the two?

9 A. I mean there was a lot of difference when you're getting fired at.

10 I mean the thing is that on certain occasions, the warring parties were

11 totally clear on where I was and what I was doing and they deliberately

12 fired at me. That is deliberate.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but you explained that

14 after you arrived, you were able to acquire a picture of what was going on

15 on the ground and that one party to the conflict was defending its rights,

16 you said that the Serbs were defending their land and that the other party

17 was attempting ethnic cleansing. Now, this value judgement, if I may put

18 it that way, was it being done -- can that explain, that is the knowledge

19 of the two parties, could that explain then the given attitude?

20 A. It may well do. But I mean again, that is, I mean, a value

21 judgment.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, I've got a few questions for you as well.

24 A. Certainly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You remember that we saw a video clip of nightly

Page 20134

1 attack on the building that was shown to you previously on the photograph,

2 that was the parliamentary building, yes?

3 A. That was the building next to the Holiday Inn.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The nightly attack we saw, do you know what day

5 that was or is it just on the basis of the video that you testified?

6 A. I don't recall the actual day it happened.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you don't know what attack exactly is shown

8 on the video.

9 A. No, I don't. I don't know exactly.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could that video clip be shown again, Mr. Ierace, I

11 know that you prepared for the technical booth where to find it.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I hand up the transcript.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes and that would then be the full.

14 MR. IERACE: That transcript covers the clip from its beginning

15 until when it -- when that subject matter is completed, and we see on the

16 screen the following image which is a basement somewhere.


18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to make sure, shall we

21 now see the tape which we gave to the registrar and the -- and with the

22 attack at the end of the tape or is it something else?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you -- of course I do not know.

24 I've seen a short video clip.

25 MR. IERACE: If I could assist, Mr. President.

Page 20135


2 MR. IERACE: There are presently tendered into evidence two

3 versions, the first version is that tendered by the Defence. The second

4 version is that tendered by the Prosecution. Neither of those versions

5 are very clear, certainly nowhere near as clear as that on the tape

6 provided by Mr. Gray. The one in the booth at the moment is the tape

7 proceeded by Mr. Gray. We will obtain a better quality copy of that

8 hopefully in the next few days.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we are now playing the --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, is it the

11 Prosecution's -- will this be now the Prosecution's version that we shall

12 see?

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we play the full part of which a part has

14 been shown by the Defence and the tape played is the original tape

15 provided by Mr. Gray to the Defence that was then handed to the registry

16 and not a bad copy meanwhile prepared.

17 MR. IERACE: I've just been told by my case manager that in fact

18 the visual audio booth does not have the original Gray tape. I thought it

19 did. Perhaps we could just check with Madam Registrar.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is why I'm asking because

21 I think we have the originals and I simply wanted to know what we were

22 about to see now.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... If you have the

24 original could you --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, it's not with us. We

Page 20136

1 don't have it with us but our tape point 6 or 9, the very last one, is

2 that fragment.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Whereas

4 Mr. Ierace wanted to play the complete --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Does Mr. Ierace have this, I

6 can't remember, did Mr. Ierace show this part of the tape during his

7 cross-examination?

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... We would like to

9 see the tape as well that he then refrained from it expecting that the

10 Chamber would ask it to be played.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: If the original is in the hands of the Defence could

13 we then please play the not perfect copy prepared by the Prosecution?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have two

15 original -- no, three, but we no longer know where this particular

16 fragment is on original tapes because there's a lot of material on them

17 and we don't know because we did a patchwork.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I have never

19 seen and neither has any other Judge in this Chamber has seen the full

20 four videos so it's -- I think the parties should be able to identify the

21 full part of the short clip played by the Defence. I couldn't help you to

22 say it's on video tape 1, 2, 3 or 4. Perhaps you would know from which

23 video you took your sequence that you showed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems that

25 from two tapes which are the BBC tapes but both are two-hours long and I'm

Page 20137

1 reminding you that we did very quickly --

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Identified at

3 this moment.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not at all.

5 MR. IERACE: If you wish to see the original, I think in the space

6 of two or three minutes I could locate that in the video booth. If you

7 wish to see the Prosecution clip, that is the one that was tendered by the

8 Prosecution, I imagine that would probably still take us two or three

9 minutes to find it.


11 MR. IERACE: So if I could have the two original BBC tapes if you

12 wish it, Mr. President, I could move into the video booth and find it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to -- perhaps we should have an early

14 break, you identify them during the break and then we then start again at

15 a quarter to 1.00. We'll adjourn until a quarter to 1.00.

16 --- Break taken at 12:25 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12:51 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, unfortunately, we cannot show the

20 original videotape of that segment. It transpires that it is of a

21 different system than the visual and audio booth can utilise, it's an NTSC

22 system whereas the booth is set up for a PAL system it seems therefore

23 that the only other complete segment that we have is the Prosecution

24 exhibit in due course when later to the Defence provides us with the

25 original BBC Gray tape and we retrieve from Madam Registrar the other BBC

Page 20138

1 original Gray tape we will make copies.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think I could for the time being do

3 without but I know that you wanted the video to be played as I said the

4 Chamber would do, but if there's no clear copy I can put my questions to

5 the witness also without that tape.

6 Madam usher, would you please escort Mr. Gray into the courtroom.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the originals

8 are now with the Prosecution. We'd appreciate it if they could return

9 them to us because they belong to us and I haven't finished yet, there

10 might be things on the tape that we are interested in, we'd like to do

11 everything possible to copy them for ourselves and if the Prosecution

12 wants to stop me from doing so, I don't think this is right.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think we need a clear direction on

14 this. The Prosecution has neither original at the moment. One, I

15 returned to the Defence at the Defence demand, I only had it for about ten

16 minutes over the break. The other is with Madam Registrar. The

17 Prosecution seeks an opportunity to copy both of the BBC tapes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a system available which would allow to copy

19 the -- what did you say the NTSC system to PAL?

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, a home video can show the NTSC

21 video but not the booth and to qualify what I said earlier we seek access

22 to the four original videotapes so we can make a copy of it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So all the videotapes should be put at the disposal

24 of the registry and so that copies can be made and if there's any need to

25 consult them we'll try and find a way that the parties can consult them.

Page 20139

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We don't intend to have these

4 cassettes tendered as such, as evidence for reasons which are --

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... At the disposal

6 of the registry in order to be copied first it does not mean it is

7 tendered in its entirety in the proceedings. That's a different matter.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, our following

9 witness will be a ballistics expert who is going to talk about the five

10 shelling incidents. Given what is on these tapes, I need them as soon as

11 possible in order to work.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Need them to

13 be -- if that's true for the Defence that's true for the Prosecution,

14 that's why they should be copied as soon as possible and I do understand

15 that both parties have not their own facilities. They have not their own

16 facilities at this moment to copy them so under full control of the

17 registry, copies will be made and be put at the disposal of the parties as

18 soon as possible.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: The parties may -- the copying this way is

21 time-consuming so therefore I invite the parties to let the Chamber -- let

22 the registry know what video they would like to be copied first because

23 the copying takes as much time as the video plays itself and we'll do

24 whatever we can in order to have them copied as soon as possible.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

Page 20140

1 the Prosecution's position is well-known. They want the first BBC tapes

2 to be copied, I think that's what they're most interested in and I think

3 that what remains is additional. What we are also interested in what

4 interests us the most are also these two cassettes where we have the BBC

5 sequences. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So we start with one of the BBC cassettes copying and

7 then the second one.

8 So are the originals now in the hands of Madam Registrar? Could

9 they please be provided.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I have only one original tape.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And the other four are there and I take it that it's

12 visible that what are the BBC. Madam usher.

13 MR. IERACE: Other three, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The other three, Mr. President, yes, my calculating

15 becomes bad.

16 Mr. Gray, we would have liked to show you the tapes again but you

17 told us -- there are technical reasons why it could not immediately do

18 that. You told us about the attack on the parliamentary building.

19 A. True.

20 JUDGE ORIE: How did you deduce from that video image that the

21 fire came from the east as you told us?

22 A. It's the actual positioning of the buildings. The -- there was a

23 photo shown to me and to the Court which was clearly taken from the Serb

24 side of the confrontation line. The firing that appears in the videotape,

25 you can see on the building -- on the narrow part of the building where

Page 20141

1 Serb tank rounds have hit the facade of the building. Machine-gun fire

2 which all the tracer fire is coming from the eastern side and --

3 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by the eastern side? From the

4 right-hand side of the photograph?

5 A. Yes, on the right-hand side.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Are you now talking about the photograph or on the

7 videotape.

8 A. On the videotape. The firing comes from the, as you look at it,

9 the right-hand side.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is my recollection correct that it comes

11 approximately in a horizontal line from the right-hand side.

12 A. Slightly upwards in the firing is slightly on an angle like this

13 it's not like this and it's not like that. It is slightly upwards. And

14 given the calibre of the actual machine-gun being used with the tracer

15 bullets and the actual distance that the machine-gun can physically fire

16 with any degree of accuracy, and this was definitely aimed fire. The

17 maximum range would be --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I'm just talking about direction rather

19 than the range at this time.

20 A. It came from the eastern side and the range is important because

21 the nearest Serb position was another --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, you are talking about the position. I'm

23 just talking about the direction at this very moment. You say it came

24 from the east.

25 A. Yes.

Page 20142

1 JUDGE ORIE: And you concluded that on the basis of what you saw

2 on the video screen, that is, the line going slightly upwards to the left

3 and coming from the right.

4 A. Correct.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, is it your position that on a

6 two-dimensional screen, you could identify the direction from which a

7 projectile comes?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask the parties whether they would like

10 this to be further explored? Everyone who takes a ...

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, willingly,

12 Mr. President, because if, for example, we have objects on a screen,

13 objects that we know and that --

14 MR. IERACE: I object to this --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are able to know whether

16 the shot is going behind --

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Question whether

18 on the basis of -- I was just trying to find out whether on the basis of

19 the line as described by the witness, the parties would consider, apart

20 from any additional information, whether the parties would consider that

21 you could establish the direction where the fire comes from on the basis

22 of the direction and the line as indicated the witness.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would say that in any event,

24 where there are 180 degrees it's quite clear.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So as a matter of fact you take it that it could be

Page 20143

1 the other 180 degrees are still a possibility. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Does the Prosecution also agrees on that?

3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we don't have to further explore the matter

5 with the witness.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wanted

7 to say was that the other 180 degrees was a possibility. I think we have

8 understood each other. I wanted to say nothing else.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Within the realm of possibility, yes.

10 Mr. Gray, you once told us that you had visited the school of

11 theology, is that a correct understanding of your testimony.

12 A. Yes, that's true. I didn't understand it as being that but that

13 was in Nedzarici and that was on an evening after I had had meetings with

14 the commander and the deputy commander for Nedzarici for the Serb forces

15 in Nedzarici.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you describe the building.

17 A. It was a two-storey building. It was basically being used as a

18 medical facility when I visited it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did it -- was it one rectangular building or

20 was it a building with several wings or --

21 A. It was at night and I -- from what I recall, it was a building

22 with several wings on it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many rooms did you see in that building?

24 A. I only saw one particular room.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And that was a room close to the entry or --

Page 20144

1 A. It was on the second storey that I actually went to and it was

2 being used as a sleeping area. I mean, a dormitory.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, was is it a large building.

4 A. Yeah, it was quite large, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So you saw a small part of it.

6 A. I only saw a very small part of it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Now you've told us about the experts that

8 had done the expertise on the marketplace where the bomb exploded. Had

9 you seen the crater itself?

10 A. No, I did not I trusted implicitly in the knowledge and the

11 expertise of the officers who conducted the investigation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Being questioned by the -- being examined by

13 the Prosecution, you said that it was impossible that that crater could

14 have been caused by a mortar that would have exploded on the ground but an

15 impact that would have happened on a person, how could you be so sure

16 about that.

17 A. Well, there would be no crater for start off if a mortar had

18 impacted directly on a person and then exploded, there would be no crater

19 whatsoever.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If it would explode on the lower extremities of a

21 person.

22 A. It still won't leave any crater. I mean the crater that we're

23 talking about in the marketplace was quite severe. It was a large crater.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Have pictures been made of it?

25 A. Yeah. I mean there are pictures available, I'm sure, with the BBC

Page 20145

1 or --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but have you seen pictures when you were

3 reported by your experts?

4 A. There are pictures on the videotapes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No I'm asking whether you saw pictures when the

6 reports came in from your experts.

7 A. No, I did not see them myself.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You more or less criticised and this as

9 such is nothing wrong with criticising UN for sending Egypt Bat because

10 you said they could be religiously close to one of the warring factions.

11 Do you consider religion to be one of the forces behind the conflict or.

12 A. Yes, I do, definitely. It was. I mean you had Ukranian Battalion

13 which was Orthodox Christian, you had an Egyptian Battalion who were

14 Muslim, I mean who were the UN actually thinking about when they actually

15 sent these battalions there? I mean the French battalion, the Canadian

16 battalion were the ideal battalions to send there. A British battalion,

17 a -- battalions that were ethnically and religiously fixed were -- they --

18 I mean the Egyptians took -- they had their compound 400 metres from the

19 PTT and it took a pounding from the Serbs. There's no two ways about

20 that. Ukranian Battalion, on the other hand, were at Marsal Tito barracks

21 and they took a pounding as well. That was for a reason.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that your testimony is that because

23 of their Egyptian origin that the Serbs would go harder after Egypt Bat.

24 A. True.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And talking about origin, you're talking about

Page 20146

1 religion.

2 A. I'm talking about religion, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have similar experience, for example, with

4 going after the Croats, of which I understand that the percentages of

5 Catholics is relatively high, with going after the French for example who

6 is supposed to be a people who is where the percentages of Catholics is

7 relatively higher than for example in northern Europe.

8 A. No, I mean the French Battalion were absolutely marvelous and they

9 did not suffer the same amount of attrition or attacks as the Ukranians or

10 the Egyptians.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that your testimony is that the

12 two parties involved, the Presidency sometimes referred to as Muslims and

13 Serbs, would be driven by religious reasons to go after specifically those

14 part of the UN forces that were of opposite religion.

15 A. Correct.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.

17 Then you have given a lot of answers in respect of the apartment

18 building in which you lived and you said that the UN flag was flying from

19 that building.

20 A. I still have that flag.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How did the UN react when it became aware, and

22 you told us that you were aware of it, that the building was used by

23 snipers and the building was used to shield those who were at the back

24 side of the building to get together, to group themselves.

25 A. We objected to the fact, but on the 14th of May, was really the

Page 20147

1 first day of the war in Sarajevo and Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was the very

2 first day. On the 15th of May, we basically -- we kept inside the

3 building. It was unsafe to actually move outside the building and move

4 anywhere. We were only located, I think, 400 metres from the PTT

5 building.

6 On the 16th of May, we were told to evacuate our apartment

7 building and move to the PTT. On the 16th and 17th of May, the UNPROFOR

8 headquarters was withdrawn from Sarajevo and they left ten military

9 observers, 30 French soldiers and a couple of Swedish cooks and a very

10 good Dutch communications contingent who actually kept us in contact with

11 the rest of the world. But I mean we protested to both of the warring

12 sides, I mean, and this was very early on that we -- I mean we didn't have

13 the infrastructure set up with the liaison officers that we subsequently

14 had, we didn't have them at that particular time. But we did protest

15 about the fact that our apartment buildings, which were clearly identified

16 with -- I mean each -- we had five apartments in the apartment buildings.

17 Every one of them had a large UN flag flying outside it, it was clearly

18 obvious. I mean there is a photo on the -- one of the tapes where it

19 shows a UN vehicle which is peppered, peppered with shrapnel which came

20 from a rifle grenade which was actually fired from within the -- within

21 the apartment complex. I mean the building is here, the Serb forces are

22 over here, the vehicle is here --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you here. I do understand your testimony

24 such that you protested at the Presidency side for using your building; is

25 that correct?

Page 20148

1 A. We protested that they were using the building as a forming-up

2 place to actually attack Nedzarici.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was your protest against the other party?

4 What did you protest about to the other party?

5 A. At that time, I was not dealing with the other party. It was only

6 after the 10th of June --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you told us that you protested to both

8 parties.

9 A. The protest came from my superior, Colonel Wilson.

10 JUDGE ORIE: What was it about?

11 A. It was about the fact that they were using the buildings which

12 were occupied with civilians as a means to attack Nedzarici.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, that was against the Presidency forces that they

14 used the building but now the other party.

15 A. Well, the other party, the protest was that they were firing at

16 buildings that were occupied with civilians and they knew that. But I

17 mean the buildings were being used as a military installation, if you

18 like. That's what the buildings were being used as.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why then protest or ...

20 A. Sorry?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Why then protest if you say, more or less, that it

22 was a military target?

23 A. We were trying to stop the fighting.


25 A. On both sides.

Page 20149

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you consider that -- or did you observe that the

2 attacks to the apartment building did not exclude the apartments from

3 which the UN flag was flying?

4 A. The attacks on the buildings were not precise. I have a photo and

5 I'm sorry I don't have it with me, but I have a photo of one of my

6 officers, his name is Gwyn Reese [phoen], he was a navy lieutenant

7 commander, the window from which he is looking has a mortar impact next to

8 it one metre away from the actual window. He actually moved into -- and

9 this was facing, obviously, the front line towards the Serb Nedzarici, he

10 actually went and he slept in his bathtub because the impacts on the

11 building were just too close. But the number of impacts that you could

12 actually see on the actual building were maybe half a dozen, no more.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer. May I just come

14 back, very briefly, to one of your earlier answers. This video clip of

15 the nightly attack on the parliamentary building, do you have any

16 knowledge as where the camera would have been situated exactly?

17 A. The camera was probably located up -- well, I mean it would be

18 very close to the daylight picture, the still picture that you have in

19 evidence.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you would say from the south but do you have

21 any -- is that a reconstruction of where it should have been because I

22 can imagine on the basis of the buildings as they appear in the picture

23 that you would easily conclude that it's somewhere in the south but do you

24 have any further --

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 20150

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then my final question is do you remember that

2 on one of these video -- on the same video clip that you see a incendiary,

3 at least something which seems to be flames on the, if I may say it so,

4 the short end of the building.

5 A. Yeah.

6 JUDGE ORIE: How do you reconcile the origin of fire from the east

7 and at the same time something hitting at least it looks as if there was a

8 hit on that wall, I'm not suggesting there was, but at least that flames

9 come out from the south, south-oriented wall of that building?

10 A. I can only conclude that a tank shell had penetrated that southern

11 side of the building and that the tracer fire, which was coming in from

12 this direction here, had set up a fire on the inside of the building and

13 that the flames were being seen through the actual -- I mean a tank round

14 makes a big hole and you can see that and I can only conclude that the

15 actual flames were coming from the inside were actually showing through

16 one of those tank round holes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand your explanation of this

18 picture.

19 I have no further questions for you, Mr. Gray, but perhaps the

20 parties would have a question.

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we no

23 doubt have questions but meanwhile, perhaps the -- we want to ask whether

24 the technical booth has our tape.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... See whether you

Page 20151

1 could find it do you take the night attack?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if the video played during the

3 examination-in-chief and I think it was item number nine on that video,

4 could that be brought to the technical booth and could we see whether it's

5 possible to play that specific part and then that is not the full version,

6 Mr. Ierace, but the limited version played before by the Defence.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher -- could you please -- one moment,

9 please.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it it's on one of the BBC, could madam usher

12 could assist, could you please identify on which tape we could find it?

13 MR. IERACE: I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referring to the tape

14 that the Defence tendered which has the excerpts played in chief.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could perhaps -- could we see whether we -- the

16 technicians could find the -- if you or Ms. Pilipovic could perhaps go to

17 the booth.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is it our tape?


20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then it is the very last clip.

21 THE REGISTRAR: For the record it's D348/20.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before the booth runs it I'd

25 like to ask some other questions too not to waste time.

Page 20152

1 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

2 Q. Colonel Gray, His Honour Judge El Mahdi asked you some questions

3 and you answered that behind those buildings, the enemy troops got

4 together, formed up before the attack in preparation of an attack and you

5 are saying behind those buildings. Now, my question is if you are a

6 military on the other side, how, with which weapon can you try to hit

7 troops, to hit those troops which are behind those buildings? This is my

8 first question.

9 A. The most effective way would be to -- by the use of mortars but

10 the buildings were only ten metres apart so the effect would be minimal.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Very well. Then concretely was there a possibility of an error in

14 view of this small distance, perhaps that could explain shots arriving

15 which one wouldn't have arriving?

16 MR. IERACE: I object. It's leading, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apart from that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it's

18 not -- your question is not quite clear to me. I think the witness said

19 that the buildings were 10 metres apart. You are talking about a small

20 distance, a small distance to what, to the next building or to whatever?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was referring to the

22 witness' reply. He spoke about a relatively short distance between

23 buildings and I suppose he was speaking either about a yard or something.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is it -- do you mean that by firing errors something

25 about hitting the next building or ...

Page 20153

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I am speaking about

2 firing errors because if the target is nearby then it is possible that by

3 mistake, the projectile hits another building or something which is

4 further away.

5 Q. Witness, did you understand this? Was this -- wasn't there a

6 higher risk of misshots or shots going off the target because of the short

7 distance?

8 A. Yes, there is.

9 Q. Thank you. Another question, Witness, attacks on your apartment

10 were mentioned. My question is how much time did you spend in this

11 apartment?

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Last question it

13 was not something which arose from the questions of the Bench and there is

14 a question of course questions have been put but the issue has been raised

15 already far earlier. I'll allow you to put this question to the witness,

16 but would you please keep this in mind?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a question by

18 His Honour Judge El Mahdi had to do with this UN flags and the question

19 was why is it -- why did the commander, the [indiscernible] commanders --

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The Judges have

21 not put questions in relation to issues already raised by the parties.

22 It's not something that arose new but was an -- and it's not -- questions

23 put by the parties to a witness after the Bench has put questions are to

24 put questions in respect of issues not raised by the parties before. That

25 cannot be said of this subject but I'll allow you to seek the answer of

Page 20154

1 the witness on this respect but just for the coming 20 minutes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Yes, and so Witness, did you spend a lot of time in this part, how

4 much time did you spend in that apartment daily?

5 A. Okay. I arrived in Sarajevo on the 10th of April, 1992. I was

6 appointed as the chief of operations for all military observers in the

7 former Yugoslavia --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, if I may interrupt you, the question was

9 how much time a day you'd spend in the apartment, approximately.

10 THE WITNESS: Maximum of eight hours, maximum.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,

12 perhaps we can all try to see the tape.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Episode of the

14 Defence video has been located we could look at it again. If the -- yes.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can you fast forward because

17 this is not what I wanted.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps quickly move forward.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So it seems if there is

20 nothing after this.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Backwards. For

22 the information of the video booth it's a clip in which a nightly attack

23 is shown but if you have any other questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we

24 could -- I think, yes. Yes, I think we have come to the part if it could

25 be rewound, rewind, backwards, please.

Page 20155

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You can stop here.

3 Q. Witness, did you, like I did, see -- but I don't want --

4 MR. IERACE: I object to this.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, but I haven't yet

6 asked my question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you started your question saying

8 have you seen as I did, and that could only result in explaining to the

9 witness what you saw. But now we have a different question.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, have you well been able to observe the

12 video.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

16 Q. Witness, did you see certain bullets hit the facade of the

17 building, the long wall of the building?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you see other projectiles going off the mark?

20 A. I'm not aware that -- of seeing anything like that.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we then see once again

22 the tape?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could play it again?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: If it would be rewound.

Page 20156

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And witness, I'd appreciate it

2 if you attentively watch this tape for possible projectiles which did not

3 hit their targets.

4 [Videotape played]


6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Witness, did you watch closely and therefore see some projectiles

8 which, perhaps, missed their targets?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And if we then look at the location of the buildings on the one

11 hand, and on the other, on the basis of your personal knowledge of

12 Sarajevo, could you tell us, confirm or rather know what is said about the

13 origin of these projectiles?

14 A. The firing was from a -- what I would call a medium machine-gun,

15 7.92 calibre. The firing rate and the actual sound --

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. This is material that was

17 covered in chief, let alone the fact that it wasn't --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but apart that from, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked

19 both parties whether it was of any use to continue asking questions about

20 what could be seen on a two-dimensional screen and the parties agreed, I

21 refer to you mentioning 180 degrees that just from such a line you can't

22 draw any conclusions. You are now asking the witness to draw conclusions.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, I don't

24 agree. What I said was that one could exclude 180 too, but keep the 120s

25 and on the base of the field of vision one can establish.

Page 20157

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... To establish to

2 you could exclude that it come from the other short side of the building

3 but there's still such a range possible that where the witness testified

4 that he has his knowledge only from this video and has no specific

5 knowledge, neither where the camera was nor of the event itself, that

6 whatever conclusions you ask him to make as to the source of fire will

7 suffer from the same problem we saw before and if --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And -- precise questions then please put them but you

10 asked him whether he could say anything on the source of fire and I'm

11 quite willing during the break to explain to the parties--

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Right. Then I will ask a

13 question.

14 Q. Witness, you say that you saw these projectiles which missed the

15 targets in relation to the short wall, the short facade that is, the

16 north/south one where we could see those tank marks. How would you follow

17 the trajectories of these projectiles, would you say that they were flying

18 in parallel with this south wall or were they falling perpendicularly to

19 the south wall, for instance, along the axis of the tank marks, what can

20 you tell us about that?

21 A. Very few small rounds that went past the building went past the

22 south wall and they were slightly, as I said before, they were slightly

23 rising in angle as opposed to going down in angle which is within what I

24 would expect for a weapon of this type.

25 Q. And with regard to the flames on the south wall which we saw on

Page 20158

1 the tape, does that confirm what you said or does this contradict what you

2 have just said?

3 A. No, the flames were clearly coming through a hole in the wall on

4 the short axis, the southern axis of the building and they were -- flames

5 from clearly coming from the inside out.

6 Q. Thank you. And my very last question: Following the question by

7 Judge El Mahdi you said something that was new, you said that the two

8 officers whom you sent to that market was actually then engaging in their

9 first investigation; however, on another page in the transcript, you said

10 the following and I will quote you in English: I sent two very

11 experienced officers. [Interpretation] So my question is as follows:

12 Where did these officers gain this experience because obviously that was

13 their first job of this kind in Sarajevo?

14 A. They were very experienced officers in their own field. One was a

15 very experienced Australian major in artillery. He had been a battery

16 commander until he came to Sarajevo, and prior to him coming to Sarajevo,

17 he had been with United Nations truce supervisory organisation in

18 Palestine. The Canadian captain was very experienced in mortar

19 operations. He was a mortar platoon commander and he was very experienced

20 in what he did.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you, Colonel.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. Any further questions.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.

24 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ierace:

25 Q. You told us that in relation to the apartment building in which

Page 20159

1 you were living was shelled, that you protested to the Presidency forces

2 and you said in response to a question regarding protests to the Serb

3 side, "At that time I was not dealing with the other party." Do you

4 remember that you told us that on the 18th of May, 1992, you spoke to the

5 deputy commander of the Serbs in Nedzarici together with one of his

6 lieutenants and the deputy commander spoke excellent English and you

7 discussed with him the shelling of the apartment building? Firstly, do

8 you remember that you said that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Secondly, did you protest to him at all about the shelling of the

11 apartment block?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. I had neighbours there at that stage and I was extremely upset

15 that the apartment buildings had been attacked.

16 Q. All right. Now, you said in relation to the shelling of the

17 market, "There are --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.


20 Q. You said in relation to the explosion of the market?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the if you could just shortly,

22 briefly indicate what your objection is based upon.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was very

24 clear repeatedly Mr. Ierace repeats this word of shelling and I said no

25 because the witness was speaking about bombing.

Page 20160

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Page 86, line 10

2 and perhaps it might have been --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but my

4 objection was this and I don't mind when I am repeating things but not

5 everything because that is wearisome.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The testimony of

7 the witness was that there was an explosion rather than a shell that

8 landed.

9 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President.

10 Q. You told us that in relation to the explosion at the market, in

11 particular, in relation to the crater, "There are pictures on the

12 videotape." Now, when did you last see on those videotapes that you've

13 given us a image of that crater, when did you last see that?

14 A. I haven't seen it for days because I mean I haven't had the -- I

15 mean the tapes have been in the possession of the Defence counsel ever

16 since I have arrived here.

17 Q. Does that mean that you saw it on the videotapes since you have

18 been here in The Hague?

19 A. No, I haven't.

20 Q. When was the last time that you saw it on the videotape?

21 A. Years ago now, years ago.

22 Q. Are you --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please break between question and

24 answer.


Page 20161

1 Q. Are you confident that there is somewhere on those four videotapes

2 some footage which shows that crater?

3 A. I am pretty confident, yes.

4 Q. All right. Now, in relation to the four videotapes, one shows

5 three television programmes from New Zealand dealing with the training and

6 experience of New Zealand peace-keeping forces in Croatia in 1994; is that

7 correct?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. This is this has

9 absolutely nothing to do with the questions asked by the Chamber.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in response to one of your questions,

11 the witness has said for the first time that somewhere on the videotape

12 there is an image showing the crater and I wish to clarify where on those

13 videotapes the crater is and if possible, over night, have the witness

14 review the videotapes and locate that image. And I think we can eliminate

15 some of the videotapes by this questioning as being ones on which that

16 image might be.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So your question is to identify the possible

18 videotape on which this picture might appear. Yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to, in my view,

20 this question lacks completely foundation and the market scene was -- this

21 matter was raised by the Prosecution.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Further identify

23 that part of the video on which the crater appears. That is the purpose

24 of this question and the appearance of the crater in a video is, I think,

25 something that appeared -- that came up during questioning by the Bench.

Page 20162

1 So the objection is denied please proceed but in this line, Mr. Ierace,

2 not of anything else.

3 MR. IERACE: No, all right.

4 Q. So one of the tapes has some television programmes produced in

5 New Zealand in 1994; is that correct?

6 A. I'm not sure.

7 Q. All right. Do you remember having a tape with that on it, a

8 documentary on New Zealand television about peace-keeping forces from

9 New Zealand in Croatia in 1994?

10 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

11 MR. IERACE: All right. Mr. President, I withdraw that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could we please try to finish because

13 there is a videolink necessary this afternoon.


15 Q. Would you be prepared to go through the videotapes overnight and

16 locate firstly the image of the crater?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. One

18 doesn't really know where the tapes are and they are in the hands of the

19 registry they need to be copied, an impossible question is asked and

20 besides it is absolutely beyond the scope of the subject.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The Prosecution

22 wants to identify the tape on which a crater appears on which the witness

23 testified it was on the video and where I do understand that the

24 Prosecution has difficulties in locating it.

25 The only question was first of all about the willingness of the

Page 20163

1 witness and whether it would be practically possible is another issue.

2 Would you be willing to review videos overnight?

3 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I believe I've given sufficient

4 evidence of this whole incident. I mean we have been over this incident

5 many, many times.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question was I do understand if you say

7 I'm too tired to do it then --

8 THE WITNESS: No, I can look through the tapes. I just need a

9 facility to actually view the tapes, that's all.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You stated that you are willing, if really necessary,

11 that's how I understand your answer.

12 THE WITNESS: That's the one.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace but please keep in

14 mind we really have to stop.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the only remaining aspect is in

16 relation to the video we saw on the Defence tape of the Ukrainian I think,

17 it was a radar facility and the second segment on the Defence tape, a

18 conversation with some soldiers in the forest. Whilst the witness

19 checks -- please if I could finish my --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let Mr. Ierace first speak what he wants to ask or to

21 say.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if while the

23 witness reviews the tapes, in order to locate the crater, he could also

24 inform us tomorrow if he has located the tape with those two segments on

25 it. Thank you.

Page 20164

1 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it would be any tomorrow,

2 Mr. Ierace, that's because all questions have been put to the witness

3 and -- let me just confer.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I think

7 that too much is being asked of this witness but it's not up to me to say

8 that and also from the Defence, I remind you that these tapes we

9 need -- those of the market because we shall need them in the examination

10 of our next witness and what we are saying now that if tapes are now

11 blocked somewhere, then we cannot use them so that I will need a day off

12 tomorrow in order to be able to prepare my examination. It's up to you,

13 Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm not asking

15 you to come back but just to know when you are about to leave?

16 THE WITNESS: I am here for at least another day, sir, and I am

17 available if you would like to see me, I'm available.

18 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, it's up to the parties to try and find

19 a way through the videos, that's point one. If the witness can assist and

20 I do understand that if necessary, he's willing to assist, then

21 nevertheless first priority should be given to copying of the videotapes

22 which will take presumably until tomorrow.

23 I take it that once a copy has been made that an extra copy so

24 that both parties have one is easily produced. Well, all the practical

25 aspects of copying the videotapes is a different matter but that gets full

Page 20165

1 priority and if there will be remaining time through the intervention of

2 the registry and the Victims and Witness Unit, we might ask, if possible,

3 and then it will be written down by the party who wants to have located a

4 certain part of a video and we'll then invite the witness to just write

5 down on a piece of paper where he located the part asked for so that he

6 doesn't have to reappear in court. I think it's just a practical matter

7 on to help the parties find a way through these videos that have been

8 delivered rather late.

9 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I'll do it later.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, you have been in this courtroom and in the

12 other courtroom for quite some time. We are fully aware of that. The

13 Chamber is also aware that your health circumstances were not ideal to

14 travel to The Hague and nevertheless you took the effort to come and to

15 respond to the call of the Defence to appear as a witness. You have

16 answered many, many questions of both parties and of the Bench. I'd like

17 to thank you very, very much for coming, for testifying, and perhaps even

18 do some extra work tomorrow. We'll see whether this is necessary and

19 whether it can be done or not, but then finally, I hope that you have a

20 safe trip home again.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But when the witness leaves

24 then I'll like to have a word.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to keep it briefly.

Page 20166

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course but one thing, if we

2 need to see the tape and the witness has finished --

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... If this will be

4 done, the witness will have a little piece of paper saying could you

5 locate and then the sequences and then he can do it alone and he'll report

6 to say so to the registrar so that the registrar will then transfer to the

7 parties whatever information the witness gives.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My second question is am I

9 nevertheless authorised to see the witness because he has finished? I

10 talk not about this, but perhaps merely as a gesture, I don't know.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we have -- the only thing we ask from the

13 witness is to locate certain --

14 MR. IERACE: No objection, Mr. President.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my third

16 point, and I have to indicate immediately these tapes which is

17 necessary -- are necessary for the second witness so problems, delay, and

18 request for a possible postponement if necessary, thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.

20 [Trial Chamber and the registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar again informs me that we -- the

22 Chamber should not promise anything because the technical difficulties in

23 copying are considerable. I think the Chamber did not promise anything

24 apart from that we would give full priority and that as far as the Chamber

25 is concerned we would do our utmost best to give the best possible

Page 20167

1 results.

2 THE WITNESS: I'm at your disposal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn until 9.00

4 tomorrow morning same courtroom.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 1.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday

8 the 25th day of February, 2003, at

9 9.00 a.m.