Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 616

1 Thursday, 13 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would

6 you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Gotovina, Cermak, and Markac.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I'd like to turn into

10 closed session.

11 [Closed session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 617











11 Pages 617-632 redacted. Closed session.















Page 633

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 Witness 136, I would like to remind you that you are still bound

7 by the solemn declaration you gave during closed session. You'll testify

8 with the protective measures as granted, that is, face distortion and

9 pseudonym, and the reasons for the decision will follow in a public

10 written decision. Whether it will be public in every respect is still to

11 be seen, but that is for the public to know what the reasons are.

12 Mr. Waespi, are you ready to examine Witness 136?

13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. As you know, we filed a motion

14 to have two witness statements admitted pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware of that, yes.

16 MR. WAESPI: And I would like to show these statements to the

17 witness, but before I do that I would like to show her her personal

18 details that should be admitted under seal.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The pseudonym sheet. Yes, please do so.

20 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if it could be shown to Your Honours and the

21 members of the Defence first.

22 JUDGE ORIE: For all practical purposes the Chamber considers

23 it's enough if at least one member of each team has seen it so that we do

24 not have all the case managers to verify whether they have more important

25 work to do.

Page 634

1 Could an exhibit number be assigned to it. May I take it that it

2 will be P1.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be Exhibit P1 under

4 seal.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, yes.

6 Examination by Mr. Waespi:

7 Q. Witness, can you please confirm that these are your personal

8 details?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it there are no objections. Therefore, P1 is

11 admitted into evidence. Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

12 MR. WAESPI: If 65 ter number 04763 could be brought up and

13 please do not broadcast this piece of evidence.

14 Q. Witness, do you remember having given a witness statement in July

15 1996 to members of the Office of the Prosecutor --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, the Chamber usually is not informed --

17 well, we could try to find out. Are we talking about which of the two

18 statements at this moment? Is it the 1996 statement or is it the other

19 statement?

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, it's the first one 1996.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's the first one, the 1996 statement. Madam

22 Registrar, that would be marked for identification number --

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2 marked for

24 identification.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 635

1 Please proceed, Mr. --

2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Now, Witness, do you remember having been visited by

4 investigators of the ICTY and having given a statement in 1996?

5 A. Yes, I do remember, and this is indeed my statement.

6 Q. Did you have a chance to review this statement before you came

7 today to the courtroom?

8 A. Yes. I was shown this statement right after it was taken, and I

9 signed every page of the statement.

10 Q. If you were asked the same questions again you were asked back in

11 1996, would your answers be the same as recorded in this statement?

12 A. Yes, they would be the same, but I would probably be able to

13 provide more details.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness.

15 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if it could be admitted into

16 evidence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One additional question. When you said you

18 signed that statement, I take it that you did so because it accurately

19 reflected the content of your statement. Is that correctly understood?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against admission? No. P2 is

22 admitted into evidence.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

24 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. If --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I should have added under seal.

Page 636

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. In that respect, Mr. President, we'll try to

2 perhaps have a redacted statement. It's easier for everybody to quote it

3 later in closing submissions if it's not under seal.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the time being, the complete and

5 unredacted version is admitted under seal. It could be replaced at a

6 later stage by two, that is one complete version and one redacted

7 version.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.

10 Q. Now, Witness, did you give a second statement on the 11th of

11 June, 2007?

12 MR. WAESPI: And while the witness is answering, could we please

13 bring up 65 ter number 4760.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, not to be shown to the public. Please

15 proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did give a statement in June

17 2007.


19 Q. And did you sign the statement?

20 A. Yes, I did sign the statement.

21 Q. And is that because it accurately reflected what your testimony

22 would be at that time or today?

23 A. Yes, definitely because it is true.

24 Q. And can you look at the screen right now. Is that this second

25 statement you gave in June 2007?

Page 637

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, again if we could --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Again unless the parties would have understood this

4 otherwise, your question, Mr. Waespi, you asked whether this accurately

5 reflected what your testimony would be at the time or today. I take it

6 that you wanted to ask the witness whether it reflected accurately the

7 content of her statement at that time and whether she would give the same

8 answers if these questions were put to her today again. That's what you

9 want to ask the witness, I take it.

10 MR. WAESPI: Exactly.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And that is what you confirmed, Witness 136?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. I would make

13 the same statement, but perhaps with some more details.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

15 I do not see any party rising for objections. Therefore, P3 is

16 admitted under seal for the time being.

17 MR. WAESPI: If the next potential exhibit 65 ter number 04769

18 could be put onto the screen and this can be made public, Mr. President.



21 Q. Now, Witness, while that's being done, in your witness statement,

22 in your first one which is now Exhibit 2, in the last paragraph on page 2

23 you say that on the 4th of August, 1995, you left your apartment and ran

24 through the town to the south barracks in Knin. I would like you to look

25 at this image once it comes up and identify the building where you were

Page 638

1 staying at that time. Don't give the address. Just tell us where your

2 building was?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, this 65 ter number would be?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, I take it, Mr. Waespi. If it identifies

6 the place where the witness was living at the time.

7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, but I think it's a larger building, residential

8 building, so I don't think the location would identify this witness.

9 If --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

11 MR. WAESPI: -- the lower part of this an image could be

12 enhanced. Lower right part, please.

13 Q. Looking at this image now, Witness, do you see the building you

14 were staying at on the 4th of August, 1995?

15 A. Yes, I can see it.

16 Q. With the help of Mr. Usher, can you please take a pen and mark

17 approximately the building you were staying at the time.

18 A. Mm-hmm.

19 Q. Just look at it carefully, then once you decide where it is.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, can you tell us or show us, rather, the

22 route you took when you went to the UN compound on the 4th of August,

23 1995?

24 A. Yes, I can. I was accompanied by a Portuguese man from the UN

25 and another female interpreter. We ran next to the kindergarten, the

Page 639

1 infirmary. We stopped for a while here in the shelter in this building,

2 but because the Portuguese man was with us he didn't feel all that

3 comfortable with the other people there, and so we went out into the main

4 road again past the department store. Could you perhaps -- okay. The

5 main road, and this is where we were picked up by the UN APCs, and we

6 continued on to the barracks.

7 Q. Can you please mark with an A, letter A, next to it where you

8 were picked up by the UN APCs.

9 A. Well, I can't be very specific. It's right in the middle of the

10 street here. I know that we passed this house here, and I fainted in

11 front of the APC.

12 Q. And let's be -- and just a reminder to everybody that the size of

13 the image shouldn't be changed now because if that's being done we lose

14 it. So you have to continue on this image, Witness. Can you continue

15 beyond the letter A the route, as far as you recall, you took to reach

16 the UN compound?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. And lastly, if you could indicate with a

19 letter B where you said that there was a shelling.

20 A. As soon as I left the building the house next to the apartment

21 building was completely destroyed, and I wondered at the time whether

22 anyone could have survived there. Should I put a B there?

23 Q. Yes. Can you make -- it looks like a D to me but maybe it's a B.

24 I just note it's the mark --

25 A. Sorry.

Page 640

1 Q. Just add again a B lower to --

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Yes, that's fine. That building was completely destroyed but

4 what kind of building was that, if you recall?

5 A. It was a residential building, a house.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness, now, how long did you stay in the UN

7 compound?

8 A. Up until the 16th of September. Some 45 days.

9 Q. And what did you do during that time?

10 A. The first three days, because I'm not from Knin, I interpreted at

11 the gate. I would welcome the people who would come to the gate. I took

12 care of them in the compound, and later on I started going on patrols

13 from the 11th of August onwards in Knin and in the village around it.

14 Q. And who were the people you welcomed to the gate?

15 A. People who came to the gate were Serbs and Croats. I remember

16 some Croats. I know their names. They came in from the area of Cetina

17 which was the area that I covered in my work as an interpreter. Those

18 were mostly children, women, the elderly, pregnant women. I saw some

19 people with mental disabilities, people in wheelchairs, or people from

20 the hospital.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness.

22 MR. WAESPI: If this aerial imagery could be saved and entered

23 into the record, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The -- the aerial photograph marked for

25 identification as P4 is now tendered with the markings of the witness on

Page 641

1 it. Any objection? No objection. P4 is admitted into evidence.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a few remaining

4 questions for the witness, but could at this time already 65 ter number

5 04768 be brought up. This is that large map, so it may take some time.

6 Q. Witness, you said that you went on patrols from the 11th of

7 August onwards in Knin and in the village around it. I take it you said

8 villages around it.

9 A. Yes, villages and hamlets around Knin and further away.

10 Q. And why did you do that?

11 A. I have to admit when I was offered to leave the first time I

12 refused, but in the end, on the 9th of August, I agreed to go out to

13 attend a meeting at the police station. Then I changed my mind again

14 because I was scared, and I said I refused to go out. But then I

15 realised that if I didn't go out that soon they would engage interpreters

16 from Zagreb, Sibenik, Zadar and that nobody would ever learn what had

17 happened to my grandmother, to my relatives, to my friends.

18 Q. And when you say "they would engage interpreters," who -- whom

19 were you accompanying on these patrols?

20 A. I was one of the few who agreed to leave the compound, so I

21 accompanied the UN civilian police, the UN military observers, the press

22 office. All of the foreigners, the human rights office, all of those who

23 at various points left the compound.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, from what I've heard until now,

Page 642

1 approximately 80 per cent is perfectly clear from the 92 ter statement.

2 Of course I do not know how you want to use your 30 minutes. You said

3 you need them for clarification and adding anything. If we would

4 continue this way, I fear for the time it will take.

5 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, that's basically it. A couple more

6 questions. It's also to -- to be honest, to be give the witness a chance

7 to address in a few minutes what she has seen before the Defence will

8 have a chance to cross-examine the witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understand. That's --

10 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Witness, in front of you you can see a map displayed. Do you

12 know what this map is?

13 A. Yes. This is the Knin area, and it also shows the area further

14 afield. The places that are marked are places that I visited after

15 Operation Storm. I had been allowed by General Cermak to move about Knin

16 itself, but I dodged this limitation, and at my own risk I ventured

17 further afield.

18 Q. So just to clarify, the places, the villages that have been

19 marked in pink, these are the places you have visited on patrol in and

20 around Knin in August 1995 when you were an interpreter?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. And these villages are the villages you describe in these two

23 witness statements we have just admitted; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 MR. WAESPI: If that could be admitted, Mr. President.

Page 643

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that --

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be Exhibit P5.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P5, and that is -- Mr. Waespi, would it be a good

4 idea that we would have this same map in evidence but then without the

5 explanations and the examples, the green and the red spots, so that we

6 have a kind of a virgin map just showing because otherwise other

7 witnesses who would have to explain on the basis of the map where they

8 went might be influenced by the markings on this map. So this P5 is

9 including information about scheduled killings and examples of

10 destruction and if you would, at a suitable moment, tender a clean map so

11 we can work with that.

12 MR. WAESPI: Certain, Mr. President. If the next potential

13 exhibit 65 ter number 04766 could be brought up, please.

14 Q. Now, Witness, if you look at the screen in front of you --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi. This should not be shown to the

16 public, would it?

17 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think it's safer not to show it to the

18 public, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Only since the name appears. Please proceed.

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, you're absolutely right, Mr. President. Thank

21 you.

22 Q. Witness, can you -- do you recognise this list?

23 A. Yes. I made it.

24 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours what it is about.

25 A. These are persons who were killed and buried at the Knin

Page 644

1 cemetery. I assume since I can see the names of persons of this list who

2 were killed in Grubori and Boraci from the village of Bosic that the list

3 was compiled sometime later in August. I took stock of all the lines of

4 graves and the names of people there who were buried there. A total of

5 17 in the first row, five unidentified. In the second row a total of 45,

6 35 unidentified, and so on and so forth. I do have to say one thing

7 these figures that I can see on the margin are slightly confusing. I

8 tried to add up and see how many people had been killed. I know there

9 were another two locations at the Knin cemetery, therefore, I assume that

10 a page is missing that should accompany this list. So that's as to the

11 calculations here on the margin of this page. I can't say what that's in

12 reference to. I suppose I was trying to add up the separate figures for

13 these three different locations within the Knin cemetery.

14 Q. And I see that in between the names there are a few NNs. Can you

15 explain what these NNs mean?

16 A. I put the list together by walking from grave to grave, from

17 cross to cross, in a manner of speaking, and I tried to observe how many

18 unidentified bodies were buried between the individual graves.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness.

20 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if this list could be tendered into

21 evidence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that list would receive number --

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it would be Exhibit P6 under seal.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P6. Any objection? No objection. P6 is admitted

25 into evidence.

Page 645

1 Please proceed.


3 Q. And the last exhibit I would like to discuss with you, Witness,

4 is another list. This is 65 ter number 4767.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, can it be shown to the public or can it

6 not?

7 MR. WAESPI: It can be shown to the public, Mr. President.



10 Q. And while that's being done, when did you go to see the cemetery

11 in Knin, the time, the occasion you wrote down these names?

12 A. I went to the cemetery several times. Once because there was

13 lady whose husband had been killed and she was on her way to the cemetery

14 accompanied by a security official. However, she couldn't locate the

15 grave, so I went with her to give her a hand. I found it in a different

16 place within the Knin cemetery. There was this other time that I went

17 with one from the press office, an official. However, we were turned

18 away because there was a burial underway. Although we were at a distance

19 of no more than a hundred metres, one could still sense the stench of

20 decomposing bodies. I did go another two or three times. I can't say

21 exactly. Once I was there with my station commander who was a -- a

22 Russian and the deputy chief of sector of the UN, the chief of the Sector

23 South civilian police who was a Dane.

24 Q. Thank you, witness. Now, looking at the screen in front of you,

25 do you recognise this list?

Page 646

1 A. Yes. Well, the list that we're looking at is the first list that

2 the Croatian police provided to the UN members.

3 Q. And were you present when the UN members were provided with this

4 list?

5 A. We received several lists. I think a total of three of four,

6 perhaps more. I wasn't there every time the list was handed to us. I

7 can't remember if I was actually physically present when this one was

8 handed to us; however, as soon as the list reached the UN base, I was

9 allowed to make copies of it and to circulate these copies to people who

10 were in the compound, just so they could check whether any of their

11 relatives or acquaintances were on that list.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would turn into private session for a minute.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 647

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. You told us you received the list from the Croatian authorities.

10 Do you recall who it was from the Croatian authorities who gave the list?

11 A. I can't say exactly now whether it was in the station commander's

12 office, the Knin station commander's office, or Cedo Romanic or

13 Zvonko Gambiroza, but I'm 100 per cent certain about one thing. The list

14 originated from the Croatian police and I have to say I was quite

15 surprised at the time that we were now receiving a list of those killed.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness?

17 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if the list could be admitted.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Objections? In the absence of objections, P6 is

19 admitted under seal.

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, was it P7 or P6?

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, I made a mistake. It's P -- it's P7. It had

22 not been yet marked for identification, but that is the last document.

23 The 65 ter number was --

24 MR. WAESPI: 4767, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: 4767 is P7 admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

Page 648

1 Under seal again.

2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes the

3 questions I have for the witness. I didn't intend to show her the

4 situation reports from CIVPOL she was involved in because we had moved to

5 move them into evidence -- witness statements, because all these exhibits

6 were discussed in her witness statement. There is a reference in each of

7 the witness statements as to her memory that these were authentic

8 documents. And I can tell Your Honours which of these exhibits we invite

9 you to -- to tender, and I think there might be one or two objections

10 from the Gotovina Defence after we met with them yesterday, and I'm happy

11 to address the relevancy of these exhibits.

12 The first one would be Exhibit 65 ter number, and I now go

13 through the list we provided to Your Honours and Defence, the Exhibit

14 number is -- the 65 ter number is 1039.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Just to be sure, do I understand that these exhibits

16 are not directly attached to the witness statement, although especially

17 the 2007 statement refers to quite a lot of these exhibits and you tender

18 them separately as exhibits so they need a number to be marked for

19 identification individually.

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think they do need a number and they are all

21 referenced, as you rightly pointed out, in the 2007 statement and some of

22 them in addition in the 1996 statement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, 65 ter number 1039 would

24 receive --

25 THE REGISTRAR: Would be Exhibit P8 marked for identification.

Page 649

1 JUDGE ORIE: P8 marked for identification. Any objections?

2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.


4 MR. KEHOE: The objection I had with regard to that, and I will

5 say that we sat down to discuss this at some length, it's a situation

6 report, obviously not signed by this witness.


8 MR. KEHOE: That talks about two individuals that are wives of --

9 excuse me, the husbands of two women that came into the area.

10 Now, I say this, Judge, that we have well over 200 killings with

11 the scheduled killings and the clarification of indictment killings, and

12 the names that we have before us here in this sitrep are on none of those

13 lists. So while we have some -- well over 250 murders, the two that are

14 in the sitrep are not in that list, and there's no tying up of this as to

15 what happened to these people or anything else. They're not on these

16 lists that have been presented by the Prosecution so far, so the issue is

17 one of simply relevancy.

18 The way it's coming out is that these people were killed, or

19 that's what the Prosecution, I believe, would like the Chamber to

20 believe, yet there has been no closing of the loop that these people are

21 actually dead or what circumstances they died under.

22 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if I can address that.


24 MR. WAESPI: It's correct what Mr. Kehoe said, that although

25 there is information that these two victims were killed, but they are not

Page 650

1 on our list of killed persons, but if you look at the indictment at

2 paragraph 33, last two sentences, this -- the Prosecution theory is not

3 just the killings. It's the persecutions, it's the harassment of the

4 civilian population. It's the inhumane treatment, count 9. So that's a

5 perfectly good example to show what the UN agencies, to whom the witness

6 was an interpreter, found that was part of the strategy to expel the

7 Serbs from the region. So it's less the killings than the disappearance

8 of these two soldiers who were clearly hors de combat.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Any further --

10 MR. KEHOE: May I respond to that, Judge. These individuals are

11 hors de combat. This is an event that takes place on the 15th of August

12 while combat is ongoing and there has been no evidence tendered in all of

13 the documentation that we have been able to find from the Prosecution

14 regarding what ultimately happened with these two people. And I am

15 concerned, Mr. President, that just laying these names out, as if there

16 is some idea that they've been killed without any follow-up information,

17 is prejudicial to the Defence and there's simply no way to answer it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We will decide the matter. At this moment P8

19 remains marked for identification. We'll consider the matter, and we'll

20 give a decision on it, if possible, immediately after the break so that

21 you know where you are in your cross-examination of the witness.

22 Yes. Next one, Mr. Waespi.

23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Next potential exhibit is

24 3373, 65 ter number.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be --

Page 651

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be Exhibit P9 marked for

2 identification.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

4 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. P9 is admitted into evidence.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

7 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Next 65 ter number 1793.

8 JUDGE ORIE: On the list that was distributed --

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I have 1792, which is only one digit different,

11 but --

12 MR. WAESPI: It's a better copy. Both are the same exhibits, but

13 we replaced it by a more legible copy.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 1793 65 ter would be -- I didn't

15 hear you. Use my microphone. That would be --

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be P10 marked for

17 identification.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P10 marked for identification. Any

19 objections?

20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Similar to the objection before.

21 There's been no follow-up information concerning this woman. I suspect

22 that -- that the Prosecution is attempting to introduce this as some type

23 of murder, yet the only information we have is bullet wounds to the lower

24 part of one's leg. I am sure, Mr. President and Your Honours, if

25 somebody is going to murder somebody it's hardly unlikely it would be a

Page 652

1 shot to the lower leg and a more direct shot. This seems to be an

2 incident that took place in the course of some type of combat operations

3 and this woman was caught in the crossfire. Nevertheless, we don't have

4 any information to follow this through and clarify this and I suspect

5 that she is not part of the clarification indictment or scheduled

6 killings as well.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. Again that's the

9 same argument the Prosecution has. There is simply no indication of

10 battles going on in these villages and certainly not in this specific

11 incident. So that's one of these many, many numerous human rights

12 violations committed by the Croatian forces and the police at that time,

13 and this woman, this old woman, is a victim of that, and that's the

14 relevance of it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand, therefore, that the suggestion that

16 was put by Mr. Kehoe that you would by this evidence want to prove murder

17 is not what your intention is?

18 MR. WAESPI: Not in relation to this person at this time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kehoe.

20 MR. KEHOE: Then if there's no intention to put this in for

21 murder, then it's completely irrelevant. There is no evidence whatsoever

22 to support any human rights violations. There is no evidence to support

23 when this actual death took place. There's no evidence to support or --

24 that we have been provided concerning what happened to this woman prior

25 to this time. So it's pure speculation, Mr. President and Your Honours,

Page 653

1 as to what happened here.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider the matter.

3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may I raise a matter on this because it

4 arises from something Mr. Waespi said concerning the admissibility of the

5 exhibit.


7 MR. KAY: I'm looking at the transcript and his words were: "So

8 that's one of the many numerous human rights violations committed by the

9 Croatian forces and the police at that time." Of course the document

10 doesn't say who did this harm, killed this person, whether it was a

11 civilian forces or police, and it's very important that we are able to

12 know exactly what the case is on these matters, particularly when the

13 document doesn't speak of it itself. The document has no reference to

14 perpetrators of the crime, but the assertion is being made of a

15 particular category of individuals, and I'm not sure how this links up

16 with the evidence in the case. There certainly seems nothing that I have

17 seen that links this to such a particular category of person.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

19 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, we just have the first witness and a

20 few pieces -- eight pieces of evidence. There will be more evidence by

21 military documents, by military analysts who will tell exactly who the

22 forces were in these various villages. For the time being, we have this

23 witness here who can testify, she was there, that these records are

24 accurate or authentic and for that part I think the relevancy is clearly

25 established.

Page 654

1 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore it's not that you deduce from this

2 document alone who was the suspected perpetrator of what happened to this

3 person.

4 MR. WAESPI: Not at this time. Not beyond what's contained in

5 the document. If in the document it says "Croatian soldiers" or

6 "Croatian military" which it sometimes does, then that's what it says.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Any further --

8 MR. KAY: That clarifies the position.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Any further comments? If not, P10. The

10 Chamber will consider and decide on the admission of P10.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if I may.


14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you. P9, Mr. Waespi, you had stated it

15 would only be page 1 of P9; correct?

16 MR. WAESPI: That's correct, yes.

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I just wanted to make that clear, Your Honour.

18 I don't think that was clear before, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P9 is only the --

20 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems on the basis of the full name, at

22 least to the extent that I understand these codes, it goes from 2407 to

23 2409, which suggests three pages.

24 MR. WAESPI: Yes. We have discussed that with the Defence and we

25 agreed that only the first page would be relevant for this witness.

Page 655

1 There will be other witnesses who hopefully will introduce the whole

2 range but for this specific witness, only the first page.

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take it that P9 consists only of

4 0035-2407 and nothing more?

5 MR. WAESPI: That's correct, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar. Please proceed. And then

7 admission of course is accordingly.

8 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry to

9 interrupt but now that we're discussing P9, I really can't understand how

10 this document is relevant since the wording of the document itself tells

11 us that there is suspicion, no more than that, that two persons were

12 killed.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, P9 was tendered. I gave an

14 opportunity to object. You didn't use that opportunity. It's now

15 admitted into evidence. The only the thing we're discussing now is

16 whether it's a three- or one-page document.

17 May I -- please stand up whenever there's any -- when there's any

18 objection. And I also understood on the basis of what we discussed on

19 Monday that there was an agreement about this between at least two of the

20 Defence teams and the Prosecution. So therefore it surprises me slightly

21 that now after the decision for admission has been taken that you now

22 come back to it and object to the admission. That comes as a surprise.

23 If I misunderstood the proceedings, please explain to me, but --

24 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Your

25 understanding is entirely correct. I just wanted to draw your attention

Page 656

1 to this portion of the document. It's about authenticity, but I don't

2 oppose this being admitted into evidence. The Trial Chamber will assess

3 this document in keeping with their own professional standards as

4 professional Judges.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, please proceed.

6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Next 65 ter number is

7 2998.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's an incident report. Madam Registrar,

9 that would be, may I take it, P11.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. P11 marked for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against P11?

12 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't see Mr. Mikulicic. No objection against

14 P11? Then P11 is admitted into evidence.

15 Mr. Waespi. If you're consulting each other if you switch off

16 the microphone that at least avoids that the public is following your

17 discussion.

18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could briefly go

19 into private session.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can. What -- as a matter of fact, what I

21 have on my mind is that we finish with these documents before the break.

22 Let's move into private session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 657

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18 MR. WAESPI: The next document, I believe, is 4124.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That would be P11, I take it, Madam Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P12.

21 JUDGE ORIE: As soon as I take over, mistakes are made. I

22 apologise. P12 marked for identification. Any objections?

23 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated] I apologise. This was,

24 frankly, I believe my last objection and again it falls into the same

25 category of -- we have a situation where Croatian government is

Page 658

1 encouraging people that gives them -- let's them go back and three

2 unidentified people are coming in, who a soldier -- the Croatian soldiers

3 is described to give this woman a hard time. I know Your Honour did

4 address the hearsay issue, but this is a situation with a woman talking

5 to a translator that then is put in a document that is written by another

6 party about people who are completely unidentified. The attenuation

7 issue here is my objection and I don't think that the Chamber can

8 properly rely on the information on this because of that attenuation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think Mr. Kehoe actually gave the answer. At

11 the time the Croatian government allegedly tells the people, encouraging

12 people to come back. The opposite happens on the ground, that the

13 Croatian soldiers, you know, harass civilians, and that's part of the

14 Prosecution's case. And it's impossible, Your Honours, to identify each

15 of these single soldiers. I believe it's enough to say -- ask the

16 witness or whoever made this report, records, that these are Croatian

17 soldiers in camouflage uniforms.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

19 MR. KEHOE: The difficulty with this, Judge, and I will make this

20 brief, is that every male in that area has camouflage on and how can we

21 address this, frankly, second or third-hand hearsay to determine who

22 these people are.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I see the problem.

24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I read in some of the statements that even males

Page 659

1 were wearing civilian clothes, so the sweeping statement that every male

2 was wearing camouflage, I cannot completely follow that. Your point has

3 been taken the Chamber will consider and decide the matter.

4 Mr. Waespi.

5 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, it's two more documents. The first

6 one, 3543.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, that would be.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P13 marked for identification.

9 JUDGE ORIE: P13. May I take it from the fact that there was an

10 agreement between two of the three parties, and Mr. Kehoe just announced

11 that he expressed his last objection, that P13 finds no objection?

12 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Judge.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The last one is 1920.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the same what I just said is true

16 and, Madam Registrar, the number would be.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P14.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then to cut matters short, P14 is admitted into

19 evidence.

20 MR. WAESPI: And just one last point, Mr. President. Of course

21 you're aware I don't need to remind you of the difference between the

22 admissibility and the weight which --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber is aware, yes, of the difference of

24 that.

25 Mr. Waespi, I have not completely checked every single detail,

Page 660

1 but I remember that in the statement sometimes reference is made not only

2 to interpreters but also to names of interpreters, if sometimes first

3 names. Have you carefully checked all these materials and whether in

4 view of the witness protection there needs to be any redactions?

5 MR. WAESPI: I think there need to be redactions. We might even

6 have to go back and admit them under seal because sometimes the first

7 name of the witness is mentioned.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly what I was referring to. That means

9 that those exhibits admitted at this very moment are admitted under seal

10 out of an abundance of caution, and that you and the Defence will verify

11 whether there's any identifying issue in relation to that document. The

12 Chamber expects a report on this not later than by tomorrow at the

13 beginning of the session.

14 Any further matter at this moment? Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Before we break, which I presume

16 is immediately before cross-examination begins, I would -- well, let me

17 say as a background matter we haven't completed the discussions about the

18 lengths of time that would precede the -- excuse me, the lengths of time

19 for disclosure of exhibits before a witness testified for either side,

20 but I think it's fair to say that the -- it was understood that for the

21 disclosure of Defence exhibits they would at least be --

22 JUDGE ORIE: The beginning of the cross-examination.

23 MR. TIEGER: Right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I should be more precise: After the

25 examination-in-chief had been concluded.

Page 661

1 Is there a list of exhibits the Defence of any of the accused

2 would wish to use and to be communicated to Mr. Tieger?

3 MR. MISETIC: Our case manager Ms. Katalinic advised me that she

4 has just sent an e-mail of what we intend to use. There are two

5 additional demonstrative exhibits in light of the direct examination that

6 we also wish to use and that will be disclosed right now as well.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then for the Cermak Defence?

8 MR. KAY: No documents have come to mind yet. Of course it

9 always depends on what happens before me, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then for the Markac Defence. Mr. Mikulicic.

11 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Your Honour, for the

12 time being we don't have any documents that we intend to use in the

13 cross-examination.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the parties are encouraged to

15 continue their discussions on the matter so that we would not have to

16 rely on ad hoc decisions but will have a standard to be set.

17 Witness 136, we'll have a break now. After the break you'll be

18 cross-examined by counsel for the various defendants.

19 Is there an order already established among yourselves?

20 MR. KEHOE: I believe with this witness, Your Honour, I consulted

21 with my co-counsel and I'll begin first.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You'll begin first, and is there -- I did understand

23 that there should be no time problems as far as this witness is

24 concerned.

25 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Judge.

Page 662

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

2 Then we will have a break, and we will resume at five minutes

3 past 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'll first give you decisions on the exhibits P8,

7 P10, and P12.

8 I'll start with the -- with P10. Could we have P10 on the screen

9 for a second.

10 Yes. I asked to have P10 on the screen because P1792 was, as you

11 informed us, remained by 1793 for better legibility. Now, what we had,

12 my hard copy, made it impossible to read the name of the village.

13 Therefore, I thought that it might be that reading the name of the

14 village would be improved by the new version, but I now see that P10 is

15 as badly legible in the translation.

16 Mr. Waespi, is it still the old one that is attached, that you

17 have not yet replaced 1792 by 1793?

18 MR. WAESPI: It should be replaced. It's either 1793 or 1792,

19 which is the better copy. So it's 1792, which is the clearly legible

20 copy. I have it with me. I can give you --

21 JUDGE ORIE: But of course we got the impression that 1793 was

22 the better legible copy, although the transcript might not be for the

23 full 100 per cent transparent in this respect. So it's now 1792 is the

24 better legible copy.

25 MR. WAESPI: Yes. If it was my mistake then I apologise for

Page 663

1 that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And may I then take it that we can read the name of

3 the village in that one as well.

4 MR. WAESPI: Yes. It's Ivanici, the village.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Having clarified this, the Chamber admits P10 in the

6 best legible copy into evidence. The Chamber shares the view of the

7 Defence of Mr. Gotovina that the weight that could be given to this

8 moment -- at this moment is very limited, but it's a matter of weight

9 rather than of admissibility, but it's well-understood the point you've

10 made, and even if it's no reason for admissibility it's something the

11 Chamber is clearly aware of.

12 Then we have -- Mr. Waespi, I'm now going to P12. Could we have

13 that on the screen as well.

14 Mr. Waespi, about the legibility of this document, what's your

15 opinion compared to the previous one?

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. I -- when I checked it this

17 morning again, I realised same problem. I made about 15 hard copies of

18 this document if it assists you right now and we can certainly get it

19 scanned in later so we have a better legible copy for the record.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There were no complaints by the parties about

21 it. I don't know. Perhaps they read the translation. I take it this is

22 all the result of marking which not finally makes illegible the text and

23 therefore also not untranslatable, the text --

24 MR. WAESPI: I could read --

25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would -- yes, if you could read relevant

Page 664

1 lines then --

2 MR. WAESPI: It reads in the middle after Drpa Dusan house, it

3 goes on: "And beaten him and told him to leave his house. After that,

4 they came to her house and told her that they will kill them and burn the

5 house if they don't leave the house. One of the soldiers beaten

6 Drpa Milica two times by stick and told them they will come to see if

7 they're still there."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it it doesn't change the position

9 of the Defence teams? Mr. Kehoe?

10 MR. KEHOE: No, it doesn't.

11 JUDGE ORIE: All right. The Chamber admits this document into

12 evidence, invites the Prosecution to replace the version in better

13 legible copy in the e-court system. There is a bit more information

14 here, but of course the weight is still to be considered, because the

15 Chamber well understands the doubts expressed by the Gotovina Defence.

16 Then we'll move to P8. P8 also gives a bit more information but

17 with a similar observation as what weight that could be attached to it.

18 The objections are not such that the Chamber would deny admission into

19 evidence of this document. Therefore, P8, P10, and P12 are admitted into

20 evidence.

21 Witness 136, this seems to be a lot of bookkeeping perhaps for

22 you. You'll now be cross-examined first by Mr. Kehoe. Mr. Kehoe.

23 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

25 Q. Good morning. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, some

Page 665

1 questions not only about what you talked about today but from your

2 witness statements.

3 Now, Witness 136, I would like to take you back to the period of

4 time prior to Operation Storm, and I believe you informed the Office of

5 the Prosecutor that some two months prior to Operation Storm, the UN

6 asked if you wanted to be an evacuation list, didn't they?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. So did that take place as early as May of 1995?

9 A. I cannot claim that with any certainty. Perhaps it was two

10 months before Operation Storm, but I don't know the exact date.

11 Q. And the UN also told you that you should have an evacuation bag

12 packed at all times?

13 A. Yes. Since I agreed to be put on the evacuation list, I was

14 automatically given recommendations as to what I should put in my

15 evacuation bag.

16 Q. And there were many employees from the Knin town working at the

17 United Nations base that also received that same information, didn't

18 they?

19 A. Yes, that's correct, but you have to bear in mind that I did not

20 have my close family there, and that is why I didn't have any problems

21 putting my name on the list, whereas my colleagues could not put their

22 names on the list and leave their parents, brothers, and sisters behind.

23 Q. But the information that the United Nations was collecting a list

24 for evacuation was disseminated to the civilian population in Knin,

25 wasn't it?

Page 666

1 A. It was communicated to the United Nations personnel, civilian

2 personnel.

3 Q. And the civilian personnel then went and told their families in

4 the town, didn't they?

5 A. It's possible, but I don't know that for a fact.

6 Q. Well, ma'am, that led to a building up of fear within the

7 civilian population in Knin, did it not?

8 A. There are many elements why there was this build-up of fear in

9 Knin. I worked in the Vrlika area, and when all the nine UN stations

10 were shut down, when the Vrlika station was shut down, the very fact that

11 the UN was withdrawing in a way it frightened the people from Vrlika.

12 Cetina had been shelled several times before Operation Storm. People

13 couldn't go out into the field to harvest their crops and that is why

14 so-called harvest teams were set up. I was a member of one such team,

15 and we were supposed to make people relax a little bit and go out and

16 harvest their crops because their livelihood depended on that. Their

17 survival depended on that. So this affected the people there. This is

18 what also made them be afraid. I know that because I worked in that

19 area.

20 Q. Ma'am, so the answer to the question is yes, that by --

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Kehoe. Your question was: "Well, madam,

22 that led to a building up of fear." What that refers to is quite unclear

23 in your question. It was about issuing an invitation to be on a list,

24 further distributing this. Could you please put your question in such a

25 way that there's no ambiguity in any way, especially if a few lines later

Page 667

1 you tell the witness that the answer to an unclear question where the

2 witness gave a very clear response, that that was a yes to your question.

3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I will ask the question with more

4 clarity.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that the witness

6 identified most of the implicit problems of your question, but please

7 proceed.


9 Q. Well, ma'am, the fact that the United Nations told its employees

10 that they were putting together an evacuation list two months to

11 Operation Storm was, as you told the Prosecution, one more element that

12 built fear with the people.

13 A. Well, to be quite honest, in my case it did not. The very fact

14 that I stayed there until the very last minute shows that I was perhaps a

15 little naive. The fact is that three days before Operation Storm, a

16 Portuguese man told me that there would be an attack on Knin, but I

17 didn't take it that seriously. And many of my friends did not take that

18 seriously, but what they did take seriously was what had happened in the

19 Vrlika area. I'm giving you this example because I know that for a fact.

20 I was there.

21 Croatian army positions were already visible up above the Cetina

22 fields, and people couldn't go out and harvest their crops, and without

23 harvesting their crops they could not survive. That was one of the key

24 elements that led to this sentiment of fear in the area of Vrlika. So

25 now I'm talking specifically about Vrlika.

Page 668

1 Q. Ma'am, and then let me ask the question with more clarity,

2 putting you aside. Did that UN evacuation list cause fear in the other

3 employees for the UN besides you?

4 A. I've already told you that I myself was not afraid. As far as I

5 know, my colleagues were not afraid either, because if they had been

6 afraid they would have resigned from their jobs in the UN and they would

7 have fled on time.

8 Q. Do you recall writing an e-mail to the Office of the Prosecutor

9 on the 6th of March, 2008, where you wrote: "I remembered also one more

10 element that was building the fear with the people prior to

11 Operation Storm. Actually, all interpreters were asked maybe one to two

12 months prior to Storm if we would like to be on a UN evacuation list in

13 case something happened."

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. You did say that?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Let us move to the days prior to Operation Storm. In your

18 witness statement, you noted that people were leaving Knin in buses, full

19 buses, ten days prior to the attack. Is that right?

20 A. That's right, but it was mothers with small children who were

21 leaving. If I had small children at the time I would not have stayed

22 there for a single day, because conditions for small children were awful.

23 There was no electricity, no food. It was impossible to get proper

24 infant food at that time. And electricity, there was no electricity for

25 well-known reasons.

Page 669

1 Q. So at least ten days prior to the attack, women and children were

2 being -- were leaving Knin.

3 A. They were leaving Knin even before that, those who were in a

4 position to do so.

5 Q. And prior, just prior to Operation Storm, you told the Prosecutor

6 that extra buses were put on -- put to work to take people from Knin to

7 Belgrade. Isn't that right?

8 A. I've told you that some elements of this build-up of fear, such

9 as the shelling, the incidents that occurred at the demarcation lines,

10 the shelling of Cetina, influenced the people from Cetina to withdraw

11 towards Knin, and this created fear among the people of Knin, and it was

12 quite natural for women with small children to try and seek shelter

13 elsewhere.

14 Q. But, ma'am --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 136, 136, could I invite you to carefully

16 listen to the question that was put to you. The question was whether you

17 told the Prosecutor that extra buses were put to work to take people from

18 Knin to Belgrade. Quite a simple question, whether there were extra

19 buses from Knin to Belgrade, yes or no, and whether you told this to the

20 Prosecution. Could you please respond to that question.

21 Mr. Waespi, I imagine what you're about to say, but could we

22 first hear the answer of the witness.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, and I do

24 apologise for not responding to that question.

25 It is true, but you have to take into account the fact that some

Page 670

1 people who had private businesses exploited the fear of the people, and

2 they put on those additional buses to work in order to earn money off

3 those frightened women who wanted to leave to Serbia. It was quite

4 difficult to get a ticket for one of those buses. You needed a good

5 connection to get a ticket in fact.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever the explanations may be, that's for

7 Mr. Kehoe to ask further questions to you about that. So therefore

8 please proceed.

9 Mr. Waespi, if you want to refer to the second statement, if

10 that's what was on your mind about the extra buses, where it specifically

11 reads Belgrade, yes. That raises an another issue, Mr. Kehoe. To what

12 extent it's necessary, but of course I leave it to you to what extent

13 it's necessary to have the witness repeat what is already in evidence,

14 that's in the 92 ter statement, or go direct to any further questions you

15 would have on the matter.

16 MR. KEHOE: The only issue, Judge, is that this is my only

17 opportunity to address that which is in the 92 ter statements. And I'm

18 certainly not going to go through all of those statements but just

19 episodically cover several instances to get a bit more clarity on those

20 statements.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not in any way inviting you not to seek any

22 further clarity but of course the first question is what the witness said

23 to the OTP. She has testified before that the 92 ter statement reflects

24 what she said. So therefore that question is -- unless there's any

25 specific reason to doubt that it does reflect, answer the question to

Page 671

1 some extent.

2 MR. KEHOE: Did you want me to refer to exactly where --

3 JUDGE ORIE: No, not at all. To put -- apparently you have

4 further questions on this issue.

5 MR. KEHOE: I do.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's immediately focus on those further

7 questions.

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Because what the witness told the Prosecution is --

10 we have read that in the 92 ter statement.

11 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


14 Q. Now in addition to these other people that were leaving in buses

15 prior to Operation Storm, your relatives left on the 2nd of August,

16 didn't they?

17 A. I think it was on the evening before Operation Storm. A relative

18 of mine with three children below the age of 10 left, and one of the

19 children was an infant still wearing nappies.

20 I travelled to Serbia bringing back infant food while I had the

21 opportunity to do so but at one point I stopped doing that. It was no

22 longer possible because it was a long road to Belgrade. She had small

23 children and it is quite natural that she tried to find a solution to

24 improve their living conditions.

25 Q. Well, ma'am, evacuation lists were not limited to just women and

Page 672

1 children, were they?

2 A. You're talking about the evacuation list of the UN members,

3 because I know only about those evacuation lists of the United Nations

4 staff members. I was on the list of the UN staff members. I was one of

5 the few who had put my name on it. I didn't have any close family there,

6 and I could leave Knin without any second thoughts.

7 Q. Well, ma'am, in fact you were on an evacuation list that was

8 prepared by the special forces of the Republic of Serb Krajina as well,

9 weren't you?

10 A. Yes, that's correct. I did mention that my boyfriend, at one

11 point I was thinking about giving it all up, my boyfriend said that he

12 could put me -- my name on the list, so if necessary I would be evacuated

13 by somebody from his unit. But I don't know. I never checked whether he

14 had actually put my name on the list, whether that list existed or not.

15 I felt safe enough being on the United Nations' list.

16 Q. Well, your boyfriend was a member of the special forces, was he

17 not?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. He told you that he put you on an evacuation list two weeks prior

20 to Operation Storm, didn't he?

21 A. He said that he would put my name on the list. I don't know

22 whether he actually did that, because I never saw him again.

23 Q. So it is true, is it not, based on your knowledge that elements

24 of the Republic of Serb Krajina were putting evacuation lists together at

25 least two weeks prior to Operation Storm, weren't they?

Page 673

1 A. I don't know that for a fact. That may have referred to some

2 privileged family members.

3 Q. Well, that's in fact that being that evacuation lists had been

4 prepared for two weeks. That's what your boyfriend told you on August

5 the 4th of 1995 at about 1500 hours, didn't he?

6 A. No, that's not what he told me at 3.00 on the 4th of August. At

7 3.00 on the 4th of August he begged me to leave the compound. The shells

8 were falling all around us. We were not talking about evacuation lists.

9 I don't know what means he was going to use for the two of us to escape,

10 on foot, on a tractor. I don't know. I didn't check.

11 Q. In your statement that was admitted into evidence, on page 2 of

12 that statement, and I believe this is P2 --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Which of the --

14 MR. KEHOE: P2.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's the 1996 statement. Yes.

16 MR. KEHOE: This is the 2007 statement, Judge.


18 MR. KEHOE: I apologise, P3.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you refer to the year, that will avoid whatever

20 confusion.


22 Q. Witness, did you tell the Prosecution this information: "When I

23 spoke to my boyfriend, which was about 3.00 p.m. on Friday afternoon, he

24 told me that he and his friends were leaving the front line as it had

25 been broken. About ten to 15 days earlier, he told me that he would

Page 674

1 place me on a special evacuation list. My understanding that the list

2 included families of the Serbian Krajina Special Forces, which was the

3 unit my boyfriend was in"?

4 A. Yes. That was a small unit.

5 Q. Did you tell that to the Prosecutor when you took this statement

6 on 11 June 2007?

7 A. Yes, I did. But I don't know whether the list actually existed,

8 because I never saw my previous boyfriend again after that. I don't know

9 if my name was on that list. I don't know how long the list was, but I

10 know that the special unit was a very small one.

11 Q. But as far as you do know, there were elements of the Republic of

12 Serb Krajina that were preparing evacuation lists to evacuate Knin, and

13 family members of these units that lived in Knin. That's what he told

14 you, didn't he?

15 A. The relatives that I was living with were not on the evacuation

16 list. My friends, my girlfriends, were not on the evacuation list, which

17 doesn't mean that no one was on these evacuation lists. I'm just telling

18 you what privileged family members were. If indeed the lists ever

19 existed. This was a very small unit, as I said. Did he say this to hold

20 me back? Did he say this to calm me down? Did the list exist or not? I

21 don't know but it gave me some sort of a feeling of safety and made me

22 stay.

23 Q. Let's move to a further subject on the 4th, and you said in

24 response to some questions by my colleague, Mr. Waespi, that you made it

25 to the UN compound, and I believe you told the Prosecutor in the first

Page 675

1 statement, P2, that the people began to come to the UN compound at 1800

2 hours on the night of the 4th. That would be 6.00 p.m. Is that right?

3 A. That's right. I do have to admit that my conscience did not

4 allow me to go all the way to the gate and face those people standing

5 just outside. I felt protected within the UN compound, and they were

6 still out there standing outside the gate, exposed. But I do know that

7 those were people with no fuel and people who were hoping in their

8 naivety, just as I was, that nothing would befall them. They were

9 seeking UN assistance and that's why they tried to position themselves

10 right outside the gate.

11 Q. And they began to -- they congregated there, according to your

12 statement, at 1800 hours?

13 A. Yes, in the evening hours but as I said I refused to go to the

14 gate.

15 Q. Now we talked about, and we will go back to the actual

16 Operation Storm, and we talked about the evacuation. Let me just take

17 you to a period of time staying on the subject of evacuation but later on

18 in your statement.

19 You noted in your statement that on August 16th, 16 August, 15

20 members of the Croatian parliament came to the UN to talk to displaced

21 people to try to get them to remain in Croatia. Do you recall that?

22 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.


24 MR. WAESPI: It would be helpful if my colleague had a reference

25 for these exhibits. Do you have a paragraph, a page?

Page 676

1 MR. KEHOE: It is -- actually, it's one of the HRAT reports of 16

2 and the number 0060-4807.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Are they exhibits at this moment?

4 MR. KEHOE: No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then of course if you put it to the witness, the

6 Chamber would appreciate if it could follow any quote from what

7 apparently was a document so that we can check whether it's --

8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I may, this is in fact something that

9 she was talking about in her statements.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Can you refer us to the portion of the

11 statement where she talks about it? It's the 1996 or the 2007 statement?

12 MR. KEHOE: I'm just pulling the statement. I believe it's the

13 1996.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Page number, please?

15 MR. KEHOE: I am looking for it now, Judge. Your Honour, can my

16 colleagues find this and I will come back to this point?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

18 MR. KEHOE: Now, let us -- let us move on a bit and we will come

19 back to this particular point in a moment, but I would just like to move

20 on a bit just to talk to -- about the interpreters as a whole.

21 Q. You noted in your direct examination that you wanted to stay on

22 because you were afraid that the UN would hire someone else; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes, that's right. My understanding was that if any of us left,

25 we would no longer know what was going on. We weren't really conscious

Page 677

1 at the time what was going on throughout the Krajina. I didn't know if

2 there was anyone left in the town itself, were we the only surviving

3 group. I didn't know and I wanted to know what was going on.

4 Q. Well, did you have some doubt that some other group of people

5 could interpret exactly to the UN what was going on?

6 A. We were told specifically about the four of us, the four of us

7 from the UN civilian police. We were told at a meeting that should we

8 refuse to go on translating they would hire translators from Sibenik,

9 which did, as a matter of fact, happen within a couple of days. There

10 weren't enough of us to go around doing the interpretation, so some extra

11 interpreters from Sibenik were hired.

12 Q. So you were concerned that Croats from Sibenik would be brought

13 in to translate. Was that your concern?

14 A. Croats from Sibenik were in fact brought in. I remember the day

15 they were. When I addressed them, I was told to explain their duties to

16 them. I said, "One thing you should know is that you'll be coming across

17 dead bodies." One of the interpreters then said, "That is impossible

18 Operation Storm has now been concluded. There are no more dead people

19 lying around." Several days later that same interpreter came back to me

20 to confirm that he had indeed seen dead bodies.

21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I am going to an area and I'm not

22 certain if it's going to be problematic concerning the witness's safety

23 but I think in a spirit of caution --

24 JUDGE ORIE: You should guide the Chamber in this respect since

25 we do not know where you go. So therefore out of an abundance of caution

Page 678

1 perhaps it's better to go to private session.

2 MR. KEHOE: Yes.


4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 679











11 Pages 679-686 redacted. Private session.















Page 687

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time with the assistance of the

13 registry, I'd like to put an overhead of Knin on the ELMO. It was part

14 of a larger presentation. And show it to the Defence counsel.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Has it been uploaded into e-court?

16 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, it has not, unfortunately. It will be

17 because it is part of a series of exhibits that we are going to introduce

18 into evidence. It is one shot of a montage of various -- of various

19 aspects of Knin.

20 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I think it might be easier if the

21 witness looked at the ELMO because the picture is better than on her

22 screen.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps --

24 MR. KEHOE: I agree. Your Honour, if I may, I could -- I am told

25 by my courtroom deputy that we could give this to Your Honour in a

Page 688

1 clearer picture in colour, but we are going to have the particular

2 witness write on this document. It's the same exact document. It has

3 more clarity for the Court and the parties, and it may be a bit more

4 helpful.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Give us the best you have, I would say.

6 MR. KEHOE: Okay.

7 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, and most important, is that the

8 witness has a copy which is --

9 MR. KEHOE: Legible.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If there's a better copy, then it's primarily she

11 who should be able to know exactly what she finds there.


13 Q. Madam Witness, you recognise that area from that photograph?

14 A. Yes, quite clearly in fact.

15 Q. And from that photograph could you point to exactly where you

16 were on the morning of the 4th?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And could you take a pen and mark that? Thank you.

19 A. Here.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If we are marking exhibits, we never know exactly if

21 these are hard copies what colour is used. Red for the Defence?

22 MR. KEHOE: That would be fine, Judge.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would you give a red pen to the witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]


Page 689

1 Q. Could you do that for us, ma'am? Okay.

2 A. Yes, yes. Right there.

3 Q. Based on that photograph, do you know where General Martic --

4 Mrksic's headquarters were for the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina?

5 Do you know where it is from there? And if you can, can you mark it for

6 us.

7 A. I don't know exactly where his HQ was. There was one. I'm not

8 sure if it was police or the army. It was on the main street, but I

9 don't know who was based there. But it wasn't something that I wanted to

10 know at the time. I simply don't know.

11 Q. Well, ma'am, you were in fact an interpreter for the UN, were you

12 not?

13 A. That's right but I did not go to any official meetings. I was a

14 field interpreter and I would go out to the surrounding villages.

15 Q. And you never learned during the course of your work where the

16 headquarters were for the army of Serb Krajina?

17 A. What I'm telling you is this: I know that on the main street

18 there was some sort of an HQ. Was it police, was it army, I don't know.

19 I wasn't interested.

20 Q. And where was that headquarters that you're talking about?

21 A. The main street in Knin. Just further down the street from the

22 department store there.

23 Q. Using the map that you have before you could you point that out

24 and give that a number 2 for us, please?

25 A. It might have been around here. This is the main street.

Page 690

1 Q. Now, approximately how far was that place that you designated as

2 number 2 from your house? How far is it?

3 A. The UN office --

4 Q. No. I'm sorry. How far was it from the first place where you

5 made a point to where you put number 2? How far?

6 A. A kilometre, perhaps. Up to a kilometre as the crow flies, but I

7 really can't be more specific than that.

8 Q. In between there, ma'am, there was a military supply depot,

9 wasn't there?

10 A. I know this as the Red Cross warehouse now. Whether this was the

11 local or the International Red Cross, I don't know, because sometimes we

12 would go there to pick up the humanitarian aid to take to the villages in

13 Vrlika area. So that is the Red Cross warehouse.

14 Q. Okay. I mean, do you know, in fact, in that area if there was a

15 supply depot for the army of Serb Krajina?

16 A. I don't know that. I think it was a Red Cross warehouse.

17 Q. Now, let's just take a look at -- now, in fact, there was a

18 parliament building in that area, too, wasn't there?

19 A. Yes. There was a building that had been reconstructed. I

20 suppose it was the parliament building, but I was not really interested

21 in that.

22 Q. So you don't know of your own personal knowledge if it was the

23 parliament building or not?

24 A. I was not really interested in that. I was not in interested in

25 the political or the military situation. I was helping the people in the

Page 691

1 field. I was a humanitarian worker.

2 Q. Well, ma'am, why don't you put down as number 3 the building that

3 you know -- or you think is the parliament building.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Now, ma'am, there was also in that particular area a post office

6 and telegraph building, wasn't there?

7 A. Yes, that's true. That was the post office.

8 Q. And where was that?

9 A. Should I mark it?

10 Q. Yes, please. Number 4.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. So in and around your house there was a post office, a -- some

13 type of military headquarters, and a parliament building in the general

14 vicinity of your residence. Isn't that so?

15 A. That's right, but there was the kindergarten and the outpatient

16 clinic.

17 Q. Now, you're using the kindergarten. Let's talk about the

18 kindergarten. The kindergarten building was in fact being used by the

19 army of the Republic of Serb Krajina, wasn't it?

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 Q. You don't know that they in fact had troops and supplies in the

22 building that was formerly used as a kindergarten?

23 A. I don't know about that.

24 Q. And where is the kindergarten?

25 A. It was here. It was a park, and the kindergarten was somewhere

Page 692

1 around here. Should I mark it?

2 Q. Yes, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Now, ma'am --

5 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, it's marked with a 5.

6 MR. KEHOE: 5.

7 Q. Let us talk, ma'am, about the actual shelling on the 4th. You

8 didn't see any of this shelling that took place on the morning of the

9 4th, did you?

10 A. Well, it was quite sufficient for me to hear it. I was in my

11 apartment, and I ran out into the shelter.

12 Q. But you didn't see it, did you, because you were in the shelter?

13 A. I was in the shelter, but at one point I went up to my apartment,

14 which was on the third floor, with a Croatian lady, and I looked out of

15 the window. I saw the shells.

16 Q. Well, when you ultimately had the opportunity to go through the

17 Knin town, you told the Prosecutor in the first statement, and that would

18 be, I believe, P2, Your Honour. That's the July 4 -- 4 July 1996.

19 You noted to the Office of the Prosecutor that Knin --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Page, please.

21 MR. KEHOE: Page 6.

22 Q. That Knin didn't seem to have suffered great damage. Isn't that

23 right?

24 A. Well, to tell you the truth, you're running and the shells are

25 falling all around you. You don't have an opportunity to notice many

Page 693

1 things. I saw the destroyed house, the damage to the outpatient clinic,

2 and I saw a house. There was a big hole in it. It was right there where

3 I ran into a shelter. I can't recall any other details as I ran there

4 and the shells were falling all around me.

5 Q. You mentioned the outpatient clinic. Did you just mention the

6 outpatient clinic? That facility was also used by the army of Republic

7 of Serb Krajina, wasn't it?

8 A. It was an outpatient clinic. I know that as I ran I saw a

9 civilian man injured. He had an injury to his arm. He was bleeding and

10 he was running towards this outpatient clinic.

11 Q. And you told him that there was nobody in the clinic because you

12 knew the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina was using it as a military

13 facility; right?

14 A. I told you that I didn't know what facilities were used by the

15 army. As I ran I saw this outpatient clinic. I saw that the windows had

16 been broken, that there was damage to the building, and I warned this

17 man, telling him that probably there was nobody there and there was no

18 need for him to run in that direction, all bloody as he was.

19 Q. Now, the fact of the matter is --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

21 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry.

22 MR. WAESPI: Can we have references for these paragraphs? These

23 are really important quotes you allege that the witness stated to the

24 Prosecution. I'm not saying you are misrepresenting what's said in the

25 statement, but could we have an exact reference to what you're quoting?

Page 694

1 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, I'm dealing with page 6 on the

2 damage coming in and out of Knin. And she mentions earlier on on the

3 page that she told people not to go to the -- she told this person not to

4 go to that particular facility, and she was living right by in an area

5 that was frequently used, all those buildings, by the army of

6 Serb Krajina, given the fact that the general headquarters was adjacent

7 to it as well as a supply depot.

8 The impression left by the Prosecution was that this was a purely

9 residential area, and the facts are that --

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I see the point you are making. The first

11 quote about the damage done to the city compared to whether it had

12 suffered great damage. I found that on page 6. However, the remainder I

13 have not found immediately, that is about the outpatient clinic and the

14 message she sent to someone who wanted to go there. Could you tell us

15 exactly where we find that?

16 MR. WAESPI: That's the portion I'm interested in, where she told

17 the person there was some military presence in the ambulance. I'd like

18 to see that.

19 MR. KEHOE: I didn't say that, Judge. What I said was that the

20 individual was headed towards that clinic, and the individual was headed

21 towards the clinic and she said, "Don't go there. There's nobody there."

22 And my argument to Your Honours and to the Bench, the Chamber, is that

23 this entire area was replete with various army of Serb Krajina

24 facilities.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that, but you put to the witness

Page 695

1 what happened in front of this clinic and someone wanted to go there.

2 Then you were asked by Mr. Waespi to tell us what you were referring to,

3 and then you said it was on page 6, and she mentioned earlier on that

4 page told people not to go there. She had told this person not to go to

5 the particular facility and she was living right by in an area that was

6 frequently used, and all these buildings and -- I'm seeking that portion

7 exactly.

8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, this is my argument. I want her to --

9 based on the information that is going on in this relatively small area

10 that was replete with the army of Serb Krajina facilities, that everybody

11 knew in this area that this was not a completely residential area,

12 that --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I see your argument, but I'm at this

14 moment focusing on the questions that you put to the witness and the

15 answer you gave to Mr. Waespi, because if you'd say, "You'll find this on

16 page 6," then it's fine. But if you then explain actually everything's

17 that's there, you are more or less testifying yourself or arguing.

18 Mr. Waespi is interested to know the source where you take the

19 witness to apparently what happened with someone who headed to the

20 outpatient clinic. Could you give us that source. That's the simple

21 issue.

22 MR. KEHOE: Where he was headed to the outpatient clinic, yes,

23 sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it that the simple approach would always be

25 the best, as we learned yesterday. Could it be, by any chance, the

Page 696

1 second statement.

2 MR. KEHOE: It could be. Frankly, I've read these so many times

3 I can't necessarily distinguish between whether it's statement 1 or

4 statement 2.

5 MR. WAESPI: It's in Exhibit P3, paragraph 5.


7 MR. KEHOE: That's it, Judge.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The ambulance station, as it's called here.

9 MR. WAESPI: But the witness only said that she told him there

10 was no one there. So there is no reference to anybody inside of military

11 significance.

12 MR. KEHOE: I understand that perfectly, Judge. I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now -- now, it may be the technique of your

14 cross-examination to suggest all kind of explanations.

15 Mr. Kehoe wants to know whether you had any knowledge of why that

16 ambulance station was not occupied any more. Did you have any knowledge

17 about that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I warned that man that he should

19 not be going up there, it was uphill, because I saw that there were

20 curtains floating all around and papers flying all over the place. The

21 windows had been broken and I assumed that there would be no medical

22 personnel there to provide aid to him. That man was covered in blood.

23 At that point a shell landed nearby. I lie down on the ground with my

24 purse next to me. My colleague and the Portuguese man went to the

25 shelter, managed to get into the shelter, and as this man walked by I

Page 697

1 told him, "There's nobody there to aid you," because that's how it

2 appeared to me, that there was no medical personnel there, but that was

3 the outpatient clinic.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could the witness please be

5 asked to slow down.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to speak a bit slower. You would be

7 the first one to be aware of what it takes to interpret.

8 Could you tell us whether you ever in that period of time --

9 well, let's say two months before, two months after the 4th of August,

10 did you ever see any military presence in this ambulance post, that is

11 either equipment, personnel, people in uniform either around the

12 building, in the building? Did you ever observe any such thing? And I'm

13 talking about the building of the ambulance post.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe. I take it from your

16 questions that you might have other information.

17 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: This will reach the Chamber, because we're

19 interested to know.

20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir. Can I just ask one last question.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course you can put -- of course the Chamber

22 has to clearly understand from what this witness can bring us and what

23 other evidence can bring us about military use of this facility. Please

24 proceed.

25 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 698

1 Q. If I may before we move off this particular map, Madam Witness,

2 could you put down on the next number, which I believe is either -- 6,

3 the place where the ambulance station was.

4 JUDGE ORIE: With a red pen, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]


7 Q. Thank you. Now, if we can turn to the period of time where you

8 ultimately got through and travelled through the town of Knin. You noted

9 at page 6 of statement 1, which is P2, Judge.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you done with the document for the time

11 being?

12 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's try to get that settled.

14 Madam Registrar, this hard copy aerial photograph with markings

15 on it and on which the witness added some markings in red pen would be --

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour that would be Exhibit 1D2 marked for

17 identification.

18 JUDGE ORIE: 1D2 marked for identification. As far as the chain

19 of custody of this document is concerned, it will now be given to the

20 registrar and, Mr. Kehoe, you're invited to find a way, together with the

21 registrar, to have it uploaded in e-court.

22 MR. KEHOE: We will do that, Judge.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


25 Q. Madam, you noted in your statement that Knin, and this is P2,

Page 699

1 page 6, didn't seem to have suffered great damages compared to what you

2 saw later in the villages in the countryside; is that right?

3 A. It is a highly pertinent remark. When I saw a village that was

4 completely burnt down and Knin where it was still possible to live,

5 that's the basis for my comparison, but Knin had suffered great damage

6 too.

7 Q. Now, you also noted in your statement of the 11th of June, 2007,

8 at page 4, that the bigger places were unharmed. And I read -- this is

9 your clarification to your prior statement to counsel. It's paragraph

10 18. "I make reference to the Croats trying to keep bigger places

11 unharmed. By that I mean the small villages were completely destroyed

12 whereas Knin, Gracac, Drnis, Korenica, Benkovac, Donji Lapac did not be

13 so badly damaged, but then of course they were much larger."

14 Is that true?

15 A. Yes. Those were larger towns, and it was my impression that the

16 small villages were deliberately razed to the ground, whereas those towns

17 were left with less damage so that life could go on in them.

18 Q. And in addition to those towns not being damaged, the hospital in

19 Knin wasn't damaged; right?

20 A. I didn't say that there was no damage to the town itself. There

21 was damage to the town but not to an extent that it would make it

22 impossible to -- for people to live there, but there was no damage to the

23 hospital, yes.

24 Q. And there was no damage to the Orthodox church, the Serb Orthodox

25 Church, was there?

Page 700

1 A. No, but access was prohibited to the Orthodox church. I don't

2 know for what reason.

3 Q. But it wasn't damaged; right?

4 A. I didn't see any major damage to it.

5 Q. Now, on the 10th of August you went through the town of Knin to

6 go to your boyfriend's house; is that right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And had your boyfriend's house been shelled?

9 A. It's an apartment building in a large residential area. Shells

10 did hit the building, had hit the building.

11 Q. How many soldiers were living in that building?

12 A. Well, I don't know that.

13 Q. Well, your -- your boyfriend who was a soldier and special

14 forces, he was living there, wasn't he?

15 A. Well, yes, but I don't know what this has to do with the other

16 inhabitants in this building.

17 Q. That's why I asked you, ma'am. How many other soldiers were

18 living in that building?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know if there were any soldiers living

20 there at all.

21 Q. Well, when you went to the building on the 10th with Jan Ellerby

22 of the UN, you went into an apartment where you found with Mr. Ellerby a

23 hand-held rocket launcher; right?

24 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know much about weapons. Whether it

25 was a hand-held rocket launcher or something else, but it looked like a

Page 701

1 weapon.

2 Q. And who had this hand-held rocket launcher?

3 A. You're saying that this is a hand-held rocket launcher. I don't

4 know what that was because I don't know about that, but it was probably

5 the property of my former boyfriend, because he was a soldier.

6 Q. So was this -- this rocket launcher or this weapon was in your

7 boyfriend's house?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And were -- was that a -- when you visited him was that a normal

10 thing, that they would have weapons like that in their houses?

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, excuse me.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

13 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The question is when you visited him, was that a

15 normal thing, that they would have weapons like that in their houses?

16 Who are you referring to?

17 MR. KEHOE: That he would have a weapon such as that in his

18 house.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

20 MR. KEHOE: I apologise. It should have been the singular as

21 opposed to the plural.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is the question clear to you whether --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was in that apartment only

24 twice before to meet his parents, and I didn't see any weapons there.


Page 702

1 Q. Well, did you see other soldiers living in that apartment

2 complex?

3 A. I don't know what you mean by soldiers. Most of the men were in

4 uniforms.

5 Q. Now, when you were asked about this rocket launcher by the

6 Croatian police that were there on the 10th, what did you tell them? Did

7 you tell them that this was your boyfriend's weapon?

8 A. When they saw me, I don't know whether that was because I was the

9 only woman in the streets at that time, they started making offensive

10 remarks. They started making proposals, telling me that maybe we should

11 go upstairs, and then the Dane, to distract them said, "Hey, let's go up

12 and look for some weapons. There are some weapons there." So there was

13 no discussion at all as to why we were there, why we had been in that

14 apartment. That was not mentioned at all.

15 Q. Well, didn't they ask you who this belonged to?

16 A. I said I didn't know. I said that I had gone up to take some

17 stuff for an elderly woman who was in the UN compound, some medicines,

18 and I was afraid that they would open the bag, because in the bag I had

19 clothes for my boyfriend and his mother.

20 Q. Well, the fact is that you didn't tell them that that weapon

21 belonged to your boyfriend, did you?

22 A. I didn't.

23 Q. Now, concerning some of the issues that you went through, you

24 noted during the course of one of your statements, and I'm talking about

25 statement one at page 6 and 7, that you had gone through a village called

Page 703

1 Podkonje. Do you recall that?

2 A. I remember that. I went there with the representatives of the UN

3 military observers to their station, the station that they had in

4 Podkonje.

5 Q. Did you know that prior to the time you went there that soldiers

6 of the Republic of Serb Krajina had held UNMOs hostage at that location?

7 Did you know that?

8 A. I don't know about that. I had never been to Podkonje before.

9 Q. Now, let me talk just to some degree, and what I'm going to do is

10 move to a couple of topics, and I'm not going to talk about everything

11 that are in your statements but just a couple of issues, and I would like

12 to talk, if I could --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Before you do so, Mr. Kehoe. I'm looking at the

14 clock. It might be a suitable time for a break if you move to other

15 subjects.

16 Could you, by the way, apparently, you seem to have some

17 information, inform us about when UNMOs were held hostage?

18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: When was that?

20 MR. KEHOE: I will bring it up in a situation report, if I can,

21 from my exhibit list.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that these are matters that are documented

23 and that --

24 MR. KEHOE: It's a -- if I could pull this up --

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, if you just get the information so that we

Page 704

1 better understand what --

2 MR. KEHOE: Yes. What happened, Judge, on the 4th of August

3 there was a UN military observer situation report that was issued and it

4 talked about the Republic of Serb Krajina soldiers holding the UN

5 military observers at Podkonje, and pardon my pronunciation, at Podkonje

6 hostage.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 4th of August, therefore.

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's the answer to my question.

10 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll have a break and we'll resume at

12 10 minutes to 1.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

16 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I'd like to refer back to one statement

17 that the witness made, and it's on page 86, line 6 through 10.

18 Q. Madam Witness, I previously asked you a question about going to

19 your boyfriend's apartment, and you said on line 7: "I said that I had

20 gone up to take some stuff for an elderly woman who was in the UN

21 compound, some medicine, and I was afraid that they would open the bag,

22 because in the bag I had clothes for my boyfriend and his mother."

23 Where was your boyfriend on the 10th of August, 1995?

24 A. I said he tried to get me out the first day of the shelling. He

25 came. He had managed to escape to Serbia the very next day, and the very

Page 705

1 next day he arrived in Serbia.

2 Q. So why did you have clothes for your boyfriend on the 10th of

3 August if he escaped on the 5th of August?

4 A. I'm a refugee. I had lost all my belongings once before, and now

5 again I knew what it meant. I tried to get some clothes for my relatives

6 and for him.

7 Q. But you never saw him again?

8 A. I did, but in Belgrade after I had been evacuated.

9 Q. Let us go back to -- to several questions that I asked you this

10 morning.

11 MR. KEHOE: And, Your Honour, I go back and refer back to some of

12 the information that I asked and where it was in the report, and I was

13 dealing, if I may, Judge, with -- and if we can bring this up. This is

14 65 ter 3376. And this was a report that was annexed to the P3, 11 June

15 2007 document.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is this one of the documents that was tendered into

17 evidence?

18 MR. KEHOE: It was not.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It was not. Then I take it that you want to tender

20 it.

21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir. I would like to tender this.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be Exhibit 1D3 marked for

23 identification.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


Page 706

1 Q. And we can turn our attention in that document to paragraph 5 on

2 page 3. Can we do that?

3 Madam Witness, can you see that? And this was a daily report of

4 the 16th of April -- excuse me, August, of 1995, and it notes under the

5 category of "Refugee/displaced persons."

6 "A large delegation of 15 Croatian members of parliament

7 accompanied by an HTV television crew showed up at the gate of the UN

8 compound and requested meetings with the PHAC and with the DPs at the

9 camp. The PHAC met with the group, minus the TV crew, but informed them

10 that they could not have an ad hoc meeting with the DPs without having

11 made some prior arrangements. Nevertheless, on the way out the

12 parliamentarians encountered a member of the DP-coordinating committee

13 and began to exercise their best persuasions as to why the DPs should

14 consider favourably the option of remaining in Croatia."

15 Madam Witness, were you present when this meeting took place with

16 Croatian parliamentarians and when they met with the displaced persons

17 coordinating committee to persuade them to remain in Croatia?

18 A. No. I wasn't there. I know that some people came. I even

19 assumed that General Cermak came as well, but I was never there when

20 anyone from the Croatian authorities addressed those people there. I was

21 out in the field.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. KEHOE: And just for the record, Your Honour, is a -- a

24 situation report for Podkonje that we talked about before. I don't know

25 if Your Honour wants to see it at this juncture.

Page 707

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what the document is, then I take it if the

2 Prosecution would not agree that we would hear from them. So I take it

3 usually if reference is made to what a document is, that we do not

4 immediately start to verify that, but I -- to start with I rely on the

5 position of the parties which, by the way, would have led you to talk

6 with a member of the committee and not the committee. Please proceed.

7 MR. KEHOE: I apologise for inexactitude.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I insist on precision, and that's true for everyone.

9 MR. KEHOE: I understand. If I might have just a moment.

10 Q. Ma'am, if we could just move ahead to the other areas that I

11 referred to prior to the break, and I would like to talk to you about

12 your visit to Strmica on the 12th of August, referred to on page 7 of P2.

13 When you went to Strmica on the 12th of August, you told the

14 Prosecution that 80 to 100 army of the Republic of Serb Krajina uniforms

15 were piled up, weren't they? And when you went along on the 16th of

16 August, and this is page 8 of P2, along Bulinastrana, the road out of

17 Knin, you also found abandoned RSK uniforms, didn't you?

18 A. Bulinastrana, Bulinastrana, the way out of Knin. I can't

19 remember specifically the exact locations, but I did see two rather large

20 piles of military uniforms having been discarded.

21 Q. Madam Witness, did that indicate to you that members of the army

22 of the Republic of Serb Krajina had taken their uniforms off and put

23 civilian clothing on?

24 A. I don't know. I didn't consider that.

25 Q. You didn't consider that at all? The answer to that's no?

Page 708

1 A. I don't know why the uniforms were there.

2 Q. But let me follow up one question on that. Do you know what the

3 average age of the soldiers were in the army of the Republic of Serb

4 Krajina?

5 A. Adult men.

6 Q. And many of those adult men were well into their 50s and 60s,

7 weren't they?

8 A. Possibly.

9 Q. So merely seeing somebody that was 50 or 60 years of age, a male

10 50 or 60 years of age, one could not conclude just by his age that that

11 person was a civilian, could you?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

13 MR. WAESPI: I think that asks for mere speculation on the

14 witness's part. I'm not sure an answer will be helpful.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to analyse what happened. You asked

16 whether many of those adult men were well into their 50s and 60s and the

17 witness said possibly. So she says, I don't exclude for the possibility,

18 but she apparently doesn't know. Then you continued by saying: "So

19 merely seeing somebody that was 50 or 60 years of age, a male of age, one

20 could not conclude just by his age that that person was a civilian."

21 Now, the witness said could be 50 or 60 years. Therefore, the

22 next question is answered. It's not -- first of all, the witness doesn't

23 know. She doesn't exclude from the possibility. So therefore there's

24 hardly any need to put the next question because if the witness considers

25 that it's a possibility that 50 and 60, you moved from average age to age

Page 709

1 which might have needed a bit of explanation as well, it could be very

2 confusing. But that next question is if I allow for the possibility that

3 someone of 50 and 60 could be, I'm not saying that he is or not, it's a

4 possibility, then of course the logical consequence, whatever the witness

5 says, is that that means that merely on the basis of age you could not

6 draw any conclusion whether he's civilian or whether he's military. So

7 therefore the question is, on the basis of logic, in my view, rather

8 superfluous.

9 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I'm encouraged by your analysis and I'll

10 move on.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And you're encouraged to analyse the problems before

12 you put questions to witnesses.

13 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Your Honour, I've been -- can I just go into private session for

22 one second. I've been reminded by something.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll move in private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 710











11 Pages 710-715 redacted. Private session.















Page 716

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.


24 Q. Now, you went to the hospital in Knin on the 11th of August where

25 you saw three ARSK soldiers, didn't you?

Page 717

1 A. That's right. The reason I went to the hospital was there had

2 been announcement that soldiers from Jordan had come across an old lady

3 with shrapnel embedded in her head. We were on our way to see her. It

4 just so happened that I saw three soldiers although up until previously

5 there had been four of them who'd been wounded. I reported this to

6 International Red Cross and I have no idea what became of them later on.

7 Q. And, sir -- ma'am, this is on page 7 of the P2, you did identify

8 one of them as Ratko Subotic, did you not?

9 A. Rajko Subotic. Rajko. Yes, I approached him. The doctor

10 actually spoke English, and there was no need for me to assist them. I

11 approached the wounded. I spoke to them. I learned what his name was

12 and then I stepped away. On the way back I realised what the names were

13 of the remaining four, and I was able to memorise three of those. This

14 was something that I reported to the International Red Cross, for them to

15 know that there were four men who were there and I have no idea what

16 became of them later.

17 Q. Well, when you went to Belgrade did you make any attempt to find

18 out what happened to them and to learn that they, too, had been exchanged

19 in December of 1995? Did you learn that?

20 A. When I arrived in Belgrade, I was myself suffering the severe

21 consequences from Operation Storm myself. I was having nightmares. I

22 was hallucinating, and I was in no shape to check that sort of detail or

23 information. I don't know what became of those people.

24 Q. Well, ma'am, so when you went to this humanitarian agency and

25 started doing interviews, you didn't make any attempt to see if these

Page 718

1 four soldiers had been released to Serbia in December of 1995?

2 A. I wasn't able to find out about all the people that I wanted to

3 know about. I had just been struck by a personal tragedy. I was looking

4 for my own grandmother who had, in the meantime, gone missing.

5 Q. Well, let's turn to another incident that took place on the 16th

6 of August of 2007. Excuse me. 16th of August, 1995, on page 7 of the

7 document. And you note on this -- this is in the bottom portion of the

8 page 7. You talk about on August 16th in Vrbnik, a village close to

9 Drnis -- a village close to Knin towards Drnis, "we saw the corpse of a

10 young man wearing a uniform lying close to the wall. There were Croatian

11 soldiers on the spot, but they would not let us take a closer look."

12 Do you recall that, ma'am?

13 A. Yes. Yes. I think that was the first victim I set eyes on.

14 They pointed their rifles at us and refused to allow us to come any

15 closer to see how this particular man had been killed. We didn't even

16 leave the car.

17 Q. Ma'am, do you recall that this is an individual -- that his name

18 was Cedomir Milos and that he lived as well?

19 A. I'm sorry, I don't think I understand your question. The person

20 I'm talking about, the person I'm saying was killed, you are trying to

21 say that this person whose body was already decomposing was alive? Is

22 that what you are trying to suggest? The body I saw was already

23 decomposing.

24 Q. The body that had the blackened face, do you know that that

25 person's name is Cedomir Milos and that he was a RSK soldier and that he

Page 719

1 lived? Do you know that based on your work in Belgrade working for a

2 humanitarian agency?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try and keep matters clear. Did you ever

4 learn or were able to identify who it was that you said you saw there in

5 a state of partly decomposition in Vrbnik?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person was 100 per cent dead.

7 I find myself unable to believe that anyone would claim the person was

8 alive. He was dead.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was not my question. My question to you

10 was: Did you ever learn at any later stage or at that moment what the

11 name was of that person that you saw there and of which you now

12 repeatedly have told us that he was dead? Did you ever learn that name?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the name. It was all in rush.

14 Every time I tried to get the victim's name, but I saw none of the

15 civilians around there that I could ask.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you in any other way find out about his identity

17 such as being the nephew of X or being the uncle of Y, or did you ever

18 gets any clue as to his identity?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I think that this was possibly

20 the first and only time that I went to Vrbnik. I wasn't familiar with

21 the area, but I did see a dead body.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kehoe, then the first matter that has to

23 be established before we can put any useful questions to the witness

24 whether the Cedomir Milos you are talking about is the same person as the

25 witness describes as having seen dead in Vrbnik. So if --

Page 720

1 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour --

2 JUDGE ORIE: It would be the first thing that would assist the

3 Chamber.

4 MR. KEHOE: We will establish that with other witnesses and

5 documentation --

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, you can't establish -- well, I wouldn't say you

7 never can establish, but it might be rather difficult to establish

8 through other witnesses who the person was this witness saw. Of course,

9 unless you -- and you could ask the witness about it, about who

10 accompanied her, because that might give a clue at a later stage, but

11 that appears to be the first issue.

12 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Well, let me ...

13 If we could just put up an English document which is ID000221 to

14 ID000222.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it you want to tender that.

16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Registrar, that would be number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be number 1D4 marked for

19 identification.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I don't know what the

21 document is about. You have carefully checked that it can be shown to

22 the public, Mr. Kehoe?

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. It has got nothing that has

24 anything to do with the identity of this witness. What it is, Your

25 Honour, is an arrest form in Vrbnik concerning, as we can go through it,

Page 721

1 the arrest of a Cedomir Milos, the events taking place in the village of

2 Vrbnik at 1815 hours on the 16th. And it will be our position as we move

3 through that that is in fact the individual that was arrested at the

4 time, and he lived. He was arrested for throwing a hand grenade.

5 Q. Staying with this --

6 MR. KEHOE: May I proceed, Judge?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


9 Q. Staying with this particular issue, ma'am, you noted in your

10 statement again on page 7 that -- this is the second sentence there:

11 "There were Croatian soldiers on the spot but they would not let us out

12 of the car to take a closer look." Do you recall that? So you never got

13 out of the car to even see this body.

14 A. The body was by the roadside. I saw it at a distance of perhaps

15 under two metres and body was dead. I think we're probably talking about

16 two different persons. The one I saw was certainly dead.

17 Q. You then go on and say: "They aimed their guns at us. First I

18 thought that the man had burned as his face was completely black but then

19 I realised he couldn't since his uniform was undamaged." Do you recall

20 that his uniform was not damaged?

21 A. I looked at the face which was entirely blackened, vermin-ridden

22 already and decomposing.

23 Q. Now, ma'am, when you finished here you note in this statement

24 that you reported the body to the Croatian police, didn't you?

25 A. Yes. That was the rule. We were to report each time we came

Page 722

1 across a victim. We were to report this to the police, and the police in

2 turn would report this to members of the civil protection unit. They

3 would then remove and bury the body. It wasn't me who did the reporting.

4 Members of the UN civilian police were, and they wrote up the reports.

5 Q. Well, the report was in fact to the civilian police of the

6 Republic of Croatia and not to General Gotovina. Isn't that right?

7 A. Civilian police.

8 Q. Now, let's turn our attention to another schedule killing, and

9 you recall taking some information from -- about an incident --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, would you allow me one -- one additional

11 question?

12 Do you remember this moment when you saw this person in Vrbnik?

13 At what time of the day was that? Do you remember? Was it morning,

14 midday, afternoon, evening?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was in the morning,

16 because after that we went to Zagrovic where we saw two more bodies. So

17 I think it was in the morning.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. You noted that after this you went to what village?

22 A. Zagrovic. Zagrovic. I think that hamlet is called Zelenbabe.

23 We saw two people who had been killed by the road.

24 Q. Let's turn our attention to the schedule killing 6. Do you

25 recall that you had taken some information concerning an incident

Page 723

1 involving a Milos Borjan? You have to say yes or no.

2 A. [In English] Yes.

3 Q. And in that incident -- who gave you that information by the way?

4 A. [Interpretation] Witnesses who survived. I don't know if I can

5 now give their names. So survivors gave a statement to Mr. E.J. Flynn,

6 and I interpreted that statement.

7 Q. Now, this incident as it was interpreted for you allegedly took

8 place on the 5th of August, 1995; is that right?

9 A. Yes. I think so.

10 Q. Now, the witnesses that you talked to, did they tell you that

11 there were a group of RSK soldiers that were on the tractor with

12 Milos Borjan and others? Did they tell you that?

13 A. Yes, precisely. They said that Milos Borjan had been driving a

14 tractor. They encountered four soldiers and a civilian, and they let

15 them get onto the tractor, and when the Croatian army personnel stopped

16 them, they killed both the civilian, Milos Borjan, and the four soldiers

17 and they let the others go.

18 Q. Well, did those witnesses tell you that the soldiers of the army

19 of the Republic of Serb Krajina fired first on soldiers of the Republic

20 of Croatia? Did they tell you that?

21 A. No, they did not.

22 Q. Did they -- did you also find out that the -- that the HV

23 soldiers escorted the survivors of that back to the UN?

24 A. No, they did not.

25 Q. Now, Milos Borjan himself was a soldier of the army of the

Page 724

1 Republic of Serb Krajina, wasn't he?

2 A. Well, how should I know that? I had never met the lad.

3 Q. Well, I mean did the people that were giving you this information

4 tell you that Milos was a soldier, too, that had left the lines?

5 A. No, that's not what they said. They didn't specify that in their

6 statement.

7 Q. Well, he was a man and when he died he was 27 years of age. Did

8 they tell you that?

9 A. Yes, that's what they said, that he was 27.

10 Q. Now, let us turn to some of the clarification scheduled murders,

11 and you told us about an incident that took place at the -- Atlagic

12 bridge. Do you recall that?

13 A. Atlagic bridge. The name of the bridge is Atlagic. It is very

14 close to the UN compound. I remember a witness, a woman, who had come in

15 claiming that her boyfriend or husband had been killed at the bridge and

16 that she had been stripped naked and made -- she was forced to run naked

17 through the town.

18 JUDGE ORIE: To assist the Chamber could you always give us a

19 hand and point us to the relevant portion of the statement.

20 MR. KEHOE: This is on the P2, page 5. I apologise, Judge. And

21 it's also referenced on -- it's not an item that's in evidence but it's

22 P2, page 5.

23 Q. Now, ma'am, after this incident, you went to Veritas to identify

24 who this man was, didn't you?

25 A. I don't recall having gone to Veritas for that reason because I

Page 725

1 knew the name of that lady.

2 Q. I'm talking about the man that was dead. Did you go to Veritas

3 to find out or identify that individual?

4 A. It's possible because I remember looking for this lady who had

5 been forced to run through the town naked. It's possible that I looked

6 up her information. I couldn't find her information, but it's possible I

7 learned the identity of the boyfriend or husband who had been killed on

8 that occasion.

9 Q. And you found out from Veritas; right?

10 A. A lot of information about the location of witnesses I got from

11 Veritas.

12 Q. And how old was this woman?

13 A. I did not interview the woman, but she may have been in her 40s.

14 Forty, 45. I would see her later in the compound. I never contacted her

15 personally. I saw her at the compound, and I think that she was on the

16 verge of a nervous breakdown.

17 Q. Ma'am, did you not even interview this woman?

18 A. I did not personally.

19 Q. So the facts that you set forth in your witness statement you

20 didn't even from the witness, you got from somebody else.

21 A. As far as this incident is concerned, yes, I heard about it from

22 other interpreters, but I saw this woman later.

23 Q. Well, when you heard about this from other people, did they tell

24 you that the boyfriend was a soldier?

25 A. Nobody told me whether he was a soldier or not, and I didn't go

Page 726

1 into those details.

2 Q. And you -- did you find out whether or not when he was found he

3 was in uniform?

4 A. I don't know whether he was found.

5 Q. Well -- if I might have one moment. Who told you this story

6 about this Atlagic bridge situation?

7 A. One of the interpreters who interpreted when the statement was

8 taken.

9 Q. Well, who was it?

10 A. I can't recall. There were quite a few interpreters who were

11 interpreting those statements. And in fact I did the least of that

12 because I was a field interpreter. I'd go out in the field.

13 Q. So, ma'am, is it fair to say that you didn't talk to the woman

14 directly, and you can't remember where this information came from?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

18 MR. WAESPI: That's one of the moments, I think, where it would

19 be fair to put to the witness what she said in her witness statement. On

20 page 5 of Exhibit P2 it says: "Another woman came there the same day and

21 told how the Croatian soldiers had made her walk naked through the town

22 after having killed her husband at the Atlagic bridge." Maybe that would

23 jog her memory.

24 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, that is not the point. The point here

25 is that the accused have been -- have to meet this defence on these

Page 727

1 murders coming from evidence from an individual that didn't even take the

2 hearsay testimony. Apparently the testimony came from somebody else who

3 told her about what this other woman said and based on that we now have a

4 charge in the indictment. And my only --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I don't think that is really a problem

6 because you elicited this evidence from this witness, how she heard it

7 and that she had no direct conversation. Of course then to ask the

8 witness to agree with a rather sweeping statement, "You didn't talk to

9 the woman directly," that's clear. You don't have to ask that any more.

10 That's what the witness testified. And you can't remember where this

11 information came from. That, on the basis of her evidence, is not

12 something that you should put to her because she said it was from one of

13 the other interpreters, although she doesn't know that person by name.

14 Well, that's the evidence as well. So whether it's fair to say or not,

15 you're just repeating the evidence the Chamber has already heard. So

16 what's the use of asking it again in a summarised way in which in the

17 summary you distort not a very essential part of the evidence whether she

18 knew the source, whether the quality of the person, in what quality that

19 person received that information, or whether she knew the name.

20 So again this question is -- I mean, I could even answer that

21 question that on the basis of the testimony of this witness she didn't

22 speak to the person herself. She got the information from someone else

23 whose -- whose name she doesn't know and whose quality is -- she knows.

24 That's the evidence.

25 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I will move on.

Page 728

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's a good idea. Please do not, Mr. Kehoe,

2 because looking at the clock it might not be the right time to move on.

3 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But, rather, to adjourn.

5 Could I inquire with the -- first of all with you, Mr. Kehoe, how

6 much time you think you would still need tomorrow, keeping in mind that

7 you're not putting the questions that are superfluous? How much time

8 would you still need?

9 MR. KEHOE: I would say Judge half an hour, 40 minutes and that

10 would be it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Half an hour, 40 minutes.

12 Mr. Kay.

13 MR. KAY: That certainly gives me sufficient time to deal with

14 the issues that I have to deal with, which look to me to be about half an

15 hour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Half an hour. And then Mr. Mikulicic.

17 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, I predict about 30 minutes will be

18 enough for me.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That means that somewhere in the middle of the

20 second session we are likely to conclude with the cross-examination.

21 Mr. Waespi, you'll then have an opportunity to re-examine the

22 witness if need be. The Chamber might have some questions as well, but

23 we should easily finish the testimony tomorrow.

24 Witness 136, you have heard all this. There is a fair chance

25 that we will conclude your testimony in this court tomorrow morning.

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1 Until that moment, I instruct you that you should not speak with anyone

2 about the testimony, whether testimony already given or testimony still

3 to be given. Don't speak about it with anyone. And we'd like to see you

4 back in this same courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00.

5 Is there any procedural issue that necessarily should be raised

6 at this moment? If not, we stand adjourned until tomorrow, the 14th of

7 March, 9.00, Courtroom III.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day

10 of March, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.