Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 730

1 Friday, 14 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 WITNESS: WITNESS P-136 [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would

9 you please call the case.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

11 IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Gotovina, Cermak, and Markac.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13 I have three small issues. First, yesterday the --

14 Madam Registrar used a method of numbering in which a distinction was

15 made between one Defence team or another Defence team. That was a

16 mistake, as far as I understand. That means that exhibit numbers for the

17 Defence start with D, then get a number, and that no distinction is made

18 whether it is Gotovina Defence, whether it's Cermak Defence, whether it's

19 Markac Defence. The cases are joined anyhow. So therefore the 1D1 and

20 the 1D2 are now changed to D1, D2, D3. That's system as far as numbers

21 are concerned.

22 The second issue is that I invited the parties to consider

23 whether where we yesterday admitted a number of exhibits under seal

24 whether there was a need to do that. Is there any report on that? First

25 of all, I'm addressing you, Mr. Waespi.

Page 731

1 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President. We haven't met with

2 the Defence, but we looked at the exhibits and I can certainly say that

3 P8, P9, P10, and P12 can be admitted openly, and we will look at the

4 redactions of the remaining documents with the exception of the witness

5 statements. There we need some more time.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then Defence teams are invited, because I consider

7 witness protection a shared responsibility, a shared duty, to see whether

8 they agree that P8, P9, P10, and P12 could be unsealed. If so, if you

9 please would have a look at it and then report after the first break if

10 you are of a different opinion with the Prosecution.

11 Then finally, and that's a matter for the witness. Witness 136,

12 I received a message in which you inquired whether you would be given an

13 opportunity to give a few further details on matters you thought it would

14 assist the Chamber to have these details at the end of your testimony.

15 Such an opportunity will be given to you.

16 Then, Mr. Kehoe, are you --

17 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you ready to continue your

20 cross-examination?

21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Just one matter. If there are

22 additional details given, I certainly would like to --

23 JUDGE ORIE: It goes without saying that if they are of -- of a

24 certain substance and if they raise the need to put any further questions

25 to the witness that of course you'll have an opportunity.

Page 732

1 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. KEHOE: Good morning Mr. President and Your Honours. Good

4 morning, ma'am. Madam Registrar, if we could put this is OTP 65 ter

5 number 6492 on the screen, please.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you intend to tender it, then perhaps you could

8 ask already whether Madam Registrar would assign a number to it.

9 MR. KEHOE: Could you assign a number to it because we will in

10 fact tender it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D5 marked for

12 identification.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14 Please proceed.


16 Q. If we could turn our attention to the second page of that

17 document, and about halfway down on that second page you'll see "Urgent

18 urgent urgent info." And if we could blow-up that particular area.

19 Now, Madam Witness, if I may, under the "Urgent urgent urgent

20 info," and this for the record is a document that was drafted by the

21 UNMOs, United Nations Military Observers, of August the 4th at 1610

22 hours, 1995.

23 You noted for us yesterday that your boyfriend came to the gate

24 at approximately 1500 hours to see you. At number 1 in this, it notes

25 that at 1515, and this is on the 4th, "Sector South headquarters is

Page 733

1 blockaded by ARSK. Anti-tank mines are laid on the main road to

2 Knin - 100 metres from headquarters entrance gate."

3 Now, Madam Witness, was your boyfriend a part of that mine-laying

4 task by the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina?

5 A. No, definitely not. He came back from the positions carrying a

6 wounded comrade. He was all covered in blood. He came to the town. We

7 spent some 10 minutes there at the gate. A shell landed very close, and

8 the security officer demanded that I go back into the shelter.

9 Q. Did you observe the mines that had been laid out in front of the

10 UN compound?

11 A. I was on the ground there at the gate. I didn't have any time to

12 look around.

13 MR. KEHOE: If I could just go into private session just very

14 briefly.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 734

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed.


14 Q. If we could go to this first page of this document which is now

15 D5, paragraph 6.

16 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, yesterday, Mr. President, we referred to

17 the issue at Podkonje, and I told Your Honour that I would present the

18 basis of that if we look at paragraph 6.

19 Q. "UNMO team Podkonje is not evacuated to headquarters yet. The

20 APCs were threatened by ARSK forces. Negotiations are ongoing to get

21 them out later on. As per the report at 1530, the Podkonje team is safe

22 and sound in their location. HV authorities are already informed about

23 the grid reference of the UNMO team locations. Shelling is ongoing in

24 Knin. Gospic is reported to be under heavy shelling from 1525 hours."

25 Now, yesterday, Madam Witness, you told the Trial Chamber that

Page 735

1 you knew nothing about the ARSK forces threatening the UNMO team at

2 Podkonje on the 4th; is that right?

3 A. I don't know, although I worked for them quite often at later

4 stages, so I find it quite strange that they never told me about that.

5 Q. Let us shift back to some of the issues that we talked about

6 yesterday, and I would like to direct your attention to one the

7 clarification killings involved in the town of Knin and the individuals

8 were Ilija and Mile Milivojevic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, could you guide the Chamber always --

10 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. That was --

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- to the page and the numbers because searching for

12 Podkonje in the yesterday transcripts doesn't help me out.

13 MR. KEHOE: I was going to do that, Judge, but I was just waiting

14 for the translation to finish and it is statement 1. I believe

15 that's -- 2, page 7.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you also refer to yesterday's testimony.

17 There I'd like to have the page and line number.

18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. I was just taking off where we

19 left off from yesterday's testimony as opposed to referring back to a

20 specific fact in yesterday's testimony.

21 Q. Now, you noted for us that you had gone to the area where

22 Ilija and Mile Milivojevic lived on the 11th of August, 1995; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that these two individuals were dead with shotgun wounds to

Page 736

1 the head; is that right?

2 A. I went there to the house next door to find accommodation for the

3 station of the UN military observers, and this woman reported to us that

4 the body of a man was there. We immediately called the press office, the

5 UN civilian police. I stood at the door, but I didn't go into the house

6 because I was not feeling well. So I didn't see those two bodies myself.

7 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.


9 MR. WAESPI: Just one correction. In the transcript it says

10 "shotgun wounds" while the witness statement on page 7 says "gunshot

11 wounds."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not exactly the same but it seems not

13 to create great confusion.

14 Please proceed.


16 Q. Now, ma'am, let me show you first the -- if we can pull up -- it

17 is number 1D00302 to 1D00303.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Kehoe?

19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. That would be --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D6 marked for

22 identification.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.


25 Q. And on the 6th person there it's Ilija Milivojevic.

Page 737

1 A. Mm-hmm.

2 Q. And it has a certain identification number KN01/420. Do you see

3 that?

4 A. Yes, yes, I do.

5 Q. Let us turn our attention to Exhibit 1D00299 to 301.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D7 marked for

7 identification.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.


11 MR. WAESPI: First of all, the previous Exhibit D5 was not on the

12 list of documents communicated to us. It's an OTP document so I don't

13 have a problem. The second issue is if first before we discuss a

14 document he just explain what it is and I also don't see an English

15 translation of the previous document which is now D6.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

17 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, this is the document that we have at

18 this juncture, which is in B/C/S. I think we -- it is readily apparent

19 that this is a series of documents received by the UN concerning people

20 who -- for which autopsies were performed. One of these two individuals,

21 Ilija, number 6, Milivojevic, and we see the identification number of

22 KN 01/420 matches up to the autopsy report that was provided by the

23 Office of the Prosecutor, which is now marked for identification as D7.

24 And we can see from that front page up in the left-hand corner, if we can

25 bold that out in case number, please, the top of the page, we can see

Page 738

1 that the same case number is there matching up to the name of

2 Ilija Milivojevic.


4 MR. KEHOE: Okay.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear you are taking us to a list and now to

6 an autopsy report. Please proceed.

7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.



10 Q. Now, if we can -- you told the Office of the Prosecutor that

11 these people had been shot in the head, didn't you?

12 A. Yes. I was standing there at the door of their house. I

13 remember the stench of the decomposing bodies. I felt quite sick and I

14 couldn't go in, but UN personnel were there and they told me what was

15 inside, and they told me there was no need for me to go in at all.

16 Q. Well, let us scroll down on that page for D7, for

17 Ilija Milivojevic, and look at the cause of death. The cause of death

18 written by the medical examiner was "It is my determination that the

19 cause of death in case number KN01/420 was unascertained at autopsy."

20 A. Let me tell you once again what I was told. I did not see the

21 bodies myself.

22 MR. KEHOE: If I can direct Your Honours to several paragraphs up

23 in the summary, third paragraph down in the summary. It notes that:

24 "The only antemortem injury identified to the bone was a single fracture

25 of the left 10th rib lateral, without any special characteristics

Page 739

1 whatsoever. Its significance was uncertain.

2 "In the absence of any soft tissues and any pathology or

3 significant trauma, the cause of death remained undetermined. No other

4 significant findings were made."

5 Your Honour, we'll of course offer into evidence the D6 and D7.

6 Of course we will provide a translation for that at the appropriate time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To be provided without delay.

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Waespi?

10 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That would include also D5?

12 MR. WAESPI: Yes, certainly. That's an English original.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then D5, D6, and D7 are admitted into

14 evidence. D6 and D7 under the condition that shortly an English

15 translation will be provided.

16 MR. KEHOE: Madam Registrar, if we could flip back to -- I'm

17 sorry. I'm sorry.

18 Madam Registrar, if we could flip back to D6.

19 Q. Now, in D6, at the number 7, that is Milan Milivojevic, and

20 identification number of KN01/421. Do you see that, Madam Witness?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Let us turn our attention to -- and if I may, it is 1D00306 to

23 308.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D8 marked for

25 identification.

Page 740

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


3 Q. Now, ma'am, you can see again if we can go to that document and

4 the identification number -- case number on the upper left-hand corner of

5 this UN document it notes the case number KN01/421, which is the

6 identification number for Milan Milivojevic in D6.

7 Once again scrolling down to the cause of death. "Cause of

8 death: It is my determination that the cause of death in case number

9 KN01/421 was unascertained." We move up to the prior paragraphs on the

10 summary, it notes in the injuries: "The injuries to bone, that of the

11 right side of the face and the shoulder region, showed significant

12 features of post-mortem antefactual injury.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Artefactual.

14 MR. KEHOE: Artefactual. I apologise, Judge, "artefactual

15 injury. There were no fresh injuries of antemortem or pari-mortem

16 nature." Going back to the last line after -- finishing that paragraph,

17 the next one-line paragraph: "The cause of death is unascertained

18 anatomically."

19 These are the UN autopsy reports, of course, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, from 2001. That's six years after the event.

21 Is that well-understood?

22 MR. KEHOE: That is well-understood. That of course showed no

23 gunshots to the cranium as the cause of death.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, not necessarily not to the head but not to

25 the -- and that of course, is a matter to be explored, to what extent it

Page 741

1 is possible at all to shoot in the head. For example, in the neck would

2 be -- but the witness didn't see it herself, so there are questions left.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

5 Q. But, ma'am, you yourself never saw these bodies?

6 A. I did not see those two bodies. I was standing outside the door.

7 I didn't want to go in, but many UN staff members went in, and I'm sure

8 that there exists photographs of those two bodies.

9 Q. Ma'am, who in the UN told you that these two men had been shot in

10 the head?

11 A. I cannot recall. I know that because there were so many of them.

12 I don't know whether I was just standing there and whether I heard it or

13 whether somebody told me that specifically. There were UN civilian

14 police members, the press office, the UN military observers, quite a few

15 of them.

16 Q. So, ma'am, you can't give us one name of anybody that told you

17 this?

18 A. I am telling you, I can't recall exactly who spoke to me or

19 whether perhaps I just stood there and listened to what they were saying

20 to each other, but I remember what they said about how those people were

21 killed.

22 Q. Well, staying with the UN personnel that was there, can you give

23 us a name or names of UN personnel that were there?

24 A. I think that there was the entire UN military observer team

25 there. One of them was Swiss. There was another man who was Spanish. I

Page 742

1 think that one was named Peter. There was Alun Roberts. I can't recall

2 who was there from the UN civilian police, but there would usually be two

3 or three of them in each team. But there is usually an official report

4 that shows who was present of the officials.

5 Q. Other than Alun Roberts, can you give us the name of any UNMO

6 that was there?

7 A. Well, one of them was called Peter.

8 Q. Do you have a last name?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Let us turn our attention to --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

12 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I believe I know the Swiss UNMO by the name of

13 Peter. I can give the name. I don't want to testify, but I'm happy to

14 pass it on to the Defence after the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, if you're interested, then Mr. Waespi

16 will tell you.

17 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Thank you, Mr. Waespi. I'm very interested.

19 Q. Ma'am, you also in September of 2003 went to a village called

20 Crnogorac. Do you recall that?

21 A. Yes. The hamlet of Crnogorci. The village itself is Polaca.

22 Q. And you did speak to a woman there in that village, didn't you?

23 A. Yes. I think that three old women remained in that village.

24 MR. KEHOE: And I stand corrected, Judge. I believe I said in

25 the transcript that it was September of 2003. It was 3 September 2005 --

Page 743

1 1995. Excuse me. I'm confused with the dates.

2 Q. And when you went to Crnogorac on the 3rd of September and you

3 talked to this woman she told you about a woman by the name of

4 Mika Crnogorac who had been killed; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, she also told you of the names of the people who were left

7 in the village, didn't she?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the person that she referred to as Mika Crnogorac, her actual

10 name was Ilinka Crnogorac, but she was known as Mika, wasn't she?

11 A. Quite possibly. I can't really remember all those names. If I

12 wrote it down, it was fresh in my memory. It was based on the notes that

13 I kept in those days. Now I cannot recollect all those names.

14 Q. Ma'am, when you went there, the woman told you about a

15 Mika Crnogorac dying, but not two women, Mika Crnogorac and

16 Ilinka Crnogorac, did she?

17 A. The lady that was killed, her surname was Crnogorac. I cannot

18 just now remember what her first name was. It's in my statement because

19 it is based on my notes. And another three ladies were there. They all

20 have similar names, sometimes identical ones.

21 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President and Your Honours, we're talking about

22 ICTY statement page 13. That's P2, which the witness refers to this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

24 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, it's also possible to identify that

25 piece in the witness statement and put it onto the screen so that

Page 744

1 everybody can see it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although if it's one or two lines then it can

3 be read to her but ...


5 Q. Now, when you went there it reads as follows: "On 3 September we

6 went to Crnogorci, Mala Polaca and heard about the killing of a woman on

7 the previous day. Her name was Mika Crnogorac, 67 years old. Five women

8 had remained in the hamlet."

9 Now, the woman told you about the death of a Mika Crnogorac,

10 didn't she?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. She didn't tell you about the killing of a separate woman whose

13 name was Ilinka Crnogorac, did she?

14 A. No. I just know of this woman that was killed who was in the

15 house next to hers because I saw a pool of blood.

16 Q. And the name Mika Crnogorac is also used as a name for Ilinka,

17 isn't it?

18 A. Possibly.

19 Q. So if we look at the murders and the clarification schedule, and

20 this is the clarification schedule submitted by the Prosecution, in

21 Mala Polaca there are two killings that were listed, one for

22 Ilinka Crnogorac on the 16th of August, 1995, and another for

23 Mika Crnogorac on the 29th of August, 1995. But no one in that village,

24 ma'am, ever told you that there were two women who were killed, did they?

25 A. I know about this woman that was killed. I don't know about any

Page 745

1 other.

2 Q. As you look it now, ma'am, is it clear to you that Mika Crnogorac

3 and Ilinka Crnogorac are the same person?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Shouldn't we first lay a foundation for any

7 knowledge of this witness --

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- because to ask her where it's the same person

10 where she says, she clearly testified that she received information about

11 one person killed, what you're now more or less putting to her is that

12 the person she talks about is the same person as another person of which

13 she says she doesn't know anything. So I don't know whether that's --

14 MR. KEHOE: I'll move on, Judge.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


17 Q. Now, let us talk about Anda Rusic. You testify about

18 approximately August 21st going on patrol to Plavno. Do you recall that?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. And you talked to a woman there by the name of Marija Jelnic.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you --

23 MR. KEHOE: If we could bring P11 up on the screen.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And could you guide us to the relevant --

25 MR. KEHOE: There's only one paragraph, Judge, and it's about

Page 746

1 the -- this is one of the documents that was submitted into evidence

2 yesterday by the Prosecution.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking you were taking her to a part of her

4 statement, I take it.

5 MR. KEHOE: We were talking about just generally the statement

6 itself, Judge, is page 10 -- this is P2, by the way.


8 MR. KEHOE: Page 10.

9 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if I could interrupt. This P11

10 should not be broadcast.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It's admitted under seal. Therefore it will be on

12 the screen for the witness and for us but not for the outside world.

13 Please proceed.


15 Q. Now, ma'am, this is the event that we are talking about which

16 took place on the 22nd of August, 1995, where we talk about the death of

17 an Anda Rusic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the UNCIVPOL reporter reported that: "The death is believed

20 to have occurred during military attack." Do you see that?

21 A. I see another error here. It says here that it is a male and in

22 the UNCIVPOL sometimes they did not provide sufficient details. For

23 example, here they talk of a man but it was a woman and that was quite

24 obvious. So there is an error there.

25 Q. So the report does say the death took place in a military attack,

Page 747

1 doesn't it?

2 A. That is what it says, but when I saw the woman she was already

3 dead, so I don't know how she was killed.

4 Q. So given the fact that you have no idea how she was killed, you

5 have no basis to question whether or not this statement by an UNCIVPOL

6 commander was correct or incorrect, do you?

7 A. The very fact that it says that it was a man rather than a woman

8 I can say that the sentence is incorrect. I remember the gentleman very

9 well. I think he's from Nigeria. As for the rest of the sentence, I

10 cannot comment on it. All I can say is that I saw the woman in a

11 terrible condition. Animals had already eaten up one hand. Only the

12 bones remained. It was one of the more horrific scenes that I witnessed

13 there. I didn't look any more closely.

14 Q. Ma'am, let us turn our attention to yet another of the murders on

15 the clarification schedule, Savo Babic.

16 MR. KEHOE: And, Your Honour, this is referred to in the P2 --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sava Babic.

18 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, I stand corrected. You're absolutely

19 right. Sava Babic. That's referred to in the P2, Your Honours, page 14.

20 Q. Now, ma'am, this particular incident -- this particular incident

21 that you went to on the 4th of September, did you actually do the

22 interviewing of the person involved in this?

23 A. I don't understand what interview you're talking about. If we're

24 talking about Sava Babic, I saw her dead. I never saw her alive.

25 Q. Did you follow what happened to that case after you received this

Page 748

1 information and gave it to the civilian police?

2 A. You're talking about the killed Sava Babic in the village of

3 Mokro Polje in the hamlet of Babici. It was the most horrible scene I

4 ever saw. I know that a day or two before that a patrol visited her and

5 she complained that she had been mistreated by Croatian soldiers, that

6 they had taken out her Fico car out of the garage, and she asked members

7 of the civilian police to park the car once again. When we came two days

8 later, we found the woman killed in the most horrific way anyone could be

9 killed. She was lying -- I apologise.

10 She was in a half-lying position in the car, in the driver's

11 seat, with a bullet in her head, and her whole brain had fallen out on

12 the seat next to her.

13 Q. Now let me show you a -- do you need a minute, ma'am?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Take your time if you need, Witness 136.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. The car -- the body

16 was decomposed. Her whole brain was on the co-driver's seat. There was

17 a Canadian lady, Jane, who took photographs of all this. She went inside

18 and made a photograph of the whole scene. So I think you will have a

19 clear evidence of the way in which the woman was killed.

20 Q. And, ma'am, in fact the investigation charged a HV soldier with

21 this crime, didn't they?

22 A. I appreciate the fact that somebody was charged with such an

23 inhumane crime.

24 Q. And that person that was charged was a HV soldier, wasn't he?

25 A. I don't know whether he was charged that he was a HV soldier. I

Page 749

1 can just assume it. I don't know who could have killed her in that way.

2 Q. Did you ever tell the Office of the Prosecutor that you knew that

3 somebody had been charged with this crime?

4 A. I don't know that anyone was charged. I don't know that anyone

5 was charged for any one, any single crime.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It may be a matter of interpretation of the line:

7 "I appreciate the fact that somebody was charged with such an inhumane

8 crime." That is perhaps not a totally ambiguous line. The witness has

9 now clarified that she doesn't know, but do I understand you well that by

10 learning now that you appreciate that this has happened? Yes. Please

11 proceed.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Today I hear for the

13 first time that anyone was charged for this. Maybe I used the wrong word

14 in saying I appreciate it. I'm glad would be better perhaps that

15 somebody was charged.

16 MR. KEHOE: Your Honours, if we can turn our attention to ID0228

17 through 236.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Needs a number?

19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D9 marked for

22 identification.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24 Mr. Waespi, will the Chamber at any later stage receive further

25 information or evidence about what we just discussed, that is a person

Page 750

1 charged for this incident?

2 MR. WAESPI: I will inquire into that, Mr. President.


4 Please proceed.

5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, if we can go to this first page,

6 and if we can blow that up.

7 JUDGE ORIE: There it comes already.

8 MR. KEHOE: It is a civil police Ministry of the Interior,

9 naturally, police report concerning the killing of a Sava Babic, the

10 victim that the witness talked about. And if we can scroll down one,

11 two, three, four, five -- page 6.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It seems as if the document is a one-page document.

13 MR. KEHOE: It should be a multi-page document, Your Honour, that

14 is in fact goes from 228 to 236.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The page you need is on your screen at this moment,

16 Mr. Kehoe?

17 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Judge.


19 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me.

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 MR. KEHOE: Again, Your Honour, as we can see this is a criminal

22 report concerning Sava Babic, and it's drafted by an individual by the

23 name of Mario Djukic as part of the Ministry of the Interior. And if we

24 could go to the next page.

25 It notes that Mario Djukic, the alleged perpetrator, is in fact a

Page 751

1 member of the 3rd Battalion of the 134th Home Guard Regiment. As we can

2 see, this is Mario Djukic being charged with the Sava Babic incident.

3 Now, if we may -- and, Judge, if I may, the date of the initial

4 criminal report on this matter is 19 September 1995.

5 Q. Now, ma'am, you noted for us that in discussing P7 --

6 MR. KEHOE: And, Your Honour, I do believe that this is a

7 document that you did not want shown publicly, P7 being a list.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, is it assured that P7 does not

9 appear for the public? Yes.

10 Please proceed.


12 Q. Now, ma'am, this is a list of documents -- of individuals that

13 you received from the civil police. Isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it not true that the civil police had provided multiple

16 lists over time concerning the dead? Isn't that right?

17 A. As far as I know, I think we received at least three lists from

18 the Croatian civilian police.

19 Q. And you received those from the civilian police and not from

20 General Gotovina. Isn't that right?

21 A. In the police station of the Croatian civilian police.

22 Q. And in this particular document that we have here, and I do

23 believe there's a translation, there are listed numerous soldiers of

24 Vojnik, as part of the dead, isn't -- aren't there?

25 A. I see that there are all the men are said to be soldiers, but it

Page 752

1 doesn't mean that they were soldiers if they wore camouflage uniforms. I

2 said that my grandfather who was 84 years old had a camouflage uniform as

3 he had no other.

4 Q. Nevertheless, ma'am, they are listed as soldiers in this

5 document, aren't they?

6 A. Yes, I see that.

7 Q. And you said yesterday, and this is on page 637 on line 13: "The

8 list originated from the Croatian police and I have to say I was quite

9 surprised at the time that we were now receiving a list of those killed."

10 A. Yes. And I was allowed in the police station to make copies and

11 to distribute them to the people in the base because they were interested

12 in seeing who had been killed.

13 Q. So you went --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 136, you earlier said that all the men are

15 reported here as being soldiers. May I ask you to carefully look at a

16 document before you give such statements, because I find at least a

17 couple of males being reported as civilians.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps I generalise things a

19 little, but I see that most of them are.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I thought you would have is to look through the

21 whole of the list, but that's -- that's another matter how reliable the

22 identification as soldiers or civilians is, but that's not something at

23 this moment I think you could shed any further light on.

24 Please proceed.


Page 753

1 Q. Ma'am, just to wrap this up, you just noted for us that you were

2 permitted to make copies of these documents and to distribute these

3 documents. Isn't that correct?

4 A. That is correct, because the people who were in the headquarters,

5 they constantly required information about who had been killed, who had

6 survived, and this was one of the ways that we could provide information

7 to them.

8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, just briefly two or three questions in

9 closed session and I'll be finished. Private session, excuse me.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We turn into private session.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 754











11 Page 754 redacted. Private session.















Page 755

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

21 MR. WAESPI: I'd just like to clarify what exhibits have been

22 admitted.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, until now I think we have had -- in fact, I'd

24 like to invite you to consider whether D1, D2, D3, and D4 whether you

25 have any objections because there is no formal decision yet on their

Page 756

1 admission. These were documents tendered yesterday.

2 Then I think that D5, D6, D7, and D8 were admitted into

3 evidence -- no, D8 not yet. Then D8 and D9 still need a decision.

4 MR. WAESPI: I believe in relation to D9 it consists of several

5 documents. We were shown the one on 2nd January, 1996, in relation to

6 perpetrator Mario Djukic, and I think in the same vein a document dated

7 19 September 1995 has been discussed. Is that the same exhibit? Is it a

8 different document? We don't have any objections, Mr. President, because

9 it's a fact that these documents look authentic, but of course a link to

10 this witness is very, very tenuous. I just note that the tendering via

11 this witness might be a problem, but we don't object for this time.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a matter that came into my mind. Of

13 course it was me myself who asked whether we would hear any further

14 evidence on -- on a person being charged, or at least investigated, for

15 that incident. Then the Defence came up with this document. Of course I

16 wondered what type of questions would be put to this witness, and I

17 wondered also whether this was a document that should necessarily be

18 introduced through this witness or whether there could be another way of

19 being tendered from the bar table such as not opposed by the Prosecution

20 as a contemporaneous report reflecting that an investigation was made. I

21 did not yet see a charge, but that's perhaps also a very technical

22 expression whether someone is charged or suspected of or under

23 investigation for.

24 Therefore, if the parties could agree on whether that report on

25 which, I think, no questions were yet put to the witness -- questions

Page 757

1 were put to her. Then the document was introduced, but I don't remember,

2 but I would have to check whether you put any questions to this witness

3 in relation to -- not to the event but to the document.

4 MR. KEHOE: I did not, Judge. She simply said she didn't know

5 anything about it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And then you put the document on the table.

7 MR. KEHOE: Right.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore it's -- you are more or less tendering

9 this from the bar table.

10 MR. KEHOE: Yes, I am, Judge.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Waespi, I also do understand that there is

12 no objection against that. So this witness -- this document is not

13 introduced through this witness but is tendered from the bar table.

14 Then, Mr. Waespi, for D1, D2, D3, D4 yesterday, any objections?

15 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then D1 through D4 are admitted into evidence.

17 Then we come to D5, D6, D7 have been decided.

18 D8. Any objection, Mr. Waespi?

19 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then for D9, Mr. Kehoe, let me just see.

21 D9 was the report, isn't it? Let me just check it.

22 Yes. That report, that was a document which consists of several

23 pages. We have seen one more particular --

24 MR. KEHOE: This is the multiple-page document that we tendered

25 from the bar. It is multiple pages.

Page 758

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, is the whole of the document about the

2 same investigation?

3 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.


5 No objections?

6 MR. WAESPI: No, but I just note that at least I remember having

7 seen two differently dated documents. Which date has the document which

8 is D9?

9 MR. KEHOE: The way it follows, Judge, chronologically is that

10 first there's a criminal report and then there is a document charging

11 this particular individual that happens thereafter in 1996. So if I may,

12 the first document is the criminal report of 19 September 1995. Then we

13 have another report from 2 January 1996, where Mario Djukic is charged

14 with the -- to that detriment -- or the killing of Sava Babic. So that's

15 why it's two documents.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It would be appreciated if there would be a hard

17 copy of these documents for the Chamber so that we don't have to spend

18 time on it, that we can just browse through it.

19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: At least one but preferably three.

21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Judge, we will do that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed. Then D8 and D9 are admitted

23 into evidence. You may proceed.

24 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have yielded the floor. Thank you

25 very much.

Page 759

1 JUDGE ORIE: You yield the floor. Then we are in open session.

2 For the Cermak Defence. Are you the next one, Mr. Kay, to --

3 MR. KAY: I am, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 136, you will now be cross-examined by

5 Mr. Kay, who is counsel for Mr. Cermak.

6 Please proceed.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:

8 Q. The first questions I'll ask you about, Witness 136, concern your

9 statement P00002.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The 1996 statement. Yes.

11 MR. KAY: I give that reference in that way, Your Honour, as it's

12 a way of linking later on electronically to the transcript.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's perhaps for -- all parties are aware

14 that if you give the full number of the -- that on the transcript it

15 appears in blue so that it links to the e-court system, that it links to

16 the document.

17 Mr. Waespi.

18 MR. WAESPI: But I understood that P2 is enough to identify. It

19 just needs to be --

20 JUDGE ORIE: The registrar confirms this by nodding. So a

21 reference to P2 would do, although we do note that these are all

22 six-digit numbers, at least in the system if you try to search for it you

23 need the zeros, but for the link it appears sufficient to say P2.

24 MR. KAY: I was following my training, Your Honours, from the --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Right. I had a similar training once, but

Page 760

1 Madam Registrar tells us that life is even more easy than we thought it

2 already was.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. KAY: Thank you. And for the benefit of the Court, I'm

5 looking at page 4 of the statement, and it's the fourth paragraph down

6 beginning "In the first three days."

7 Q. Witness 136, you have no need to worry about that. It's just to

8 help the Judges and help the bar.

9 A. Mm-hmm.

10 Q. In that passage of your statement you deal with three days that

11 you were within the UN camp in Knin, and I'm going to ask you whether you

12 recollect whether there was a visit by Mr. Akashi, who was a special

13 representative of the United Nations Secretary-General.

14 A. Yes, I remember. I think it was on the 7th of August, but I did

15 not hear Mr. Akashi's speech. I didn't listen to it.

16 Q. Were you present or in his company in the camp when he visited

17 it?

18 A. No, I was not. I think I had some administrative things to do in

19 the office, and I didn't really go out to attend the meetings that he had

20 on that day. I was not part of his entourage.

21 Q. Were you aware or did you see that he toured around the camp?

22 A. Yes, I do know that he toured the base. I know that he spoke to

23 people. I know that he attended some official meetings outside of the

24 base, but I myself did not see him because I had some other tasks to do.

25 Q. Thank you very much. That's all I wanted to ask you about that

Page 761

1 matter.

2 After that visit, the UN had their restriction of movement within

3 the camp removed and members of the United Nations on the next day, the

4 8th of August, were able to go out into Knin and the surrounding area?

5 A. I don't know about that. The first time I went out into Knin I

6 thought it was official. That was the 9th of August, when we went to

7 this meeting at the police station, and a couple of days later we

8 received permission signed by General Cermak, that we, the interpreters

9 working for the United Nations could move about but only within the

10 boundaries of the town of Knin itself.

11 Q. I'd like you to look at a document to see whether you recognise

12 it.

13 MR. KAY: If the registry could call up from the Prosecution's 65

14 ter list number 2736.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Kay. Mr. Kay, does it

16 need a number?

17 MR. KAY: It will but it will be a document that will become very

18 familiar to the Court during the case.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that --

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: I'm sure it's not going to be a problem but we

23 haven't been advised of any of the exhibits to be used by the Defence of

24 Mr. Cermak.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay.

Page 762

1 MR. KAY: We were informed by e-mail that all the Prosecution 65

2 ter exhibits had been uploaded into the system.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's a different matter from using it in

4 cross-examination, because there might be quite a number of documents.

5 MR. KAY: Right.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore parties are under a duty to -- to the

7 extent they know that they'll use certain documents in cross-examination

8 to inform the -- in this case the Prosecution, at the end of the

9 examination-in-chief about documents they're going to use so that the

10 Prosecution can also prepare and further look at that document in

11 preparing for further re-examination of the witness.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, if I could just raise one matter.

14 We believed this was already in the system but apparently it's not, and

15 it just arises ex improviso from yesterday as the result of the

16 witnesses's evidence concerning the pass.

17 I do have hard copies here. I don't know whether the Bench would

18 welcome receiving these at this stage.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you have them then it we would be good that we

20 receive them. It very much depends on the document. If it's a five-line

21 document it might not always be necessary to provide us with a hard copy

22 but try to imagine what our task is.

23 MR. KAY: Yes. It is a simple document that, as I say, you'll

24 become familiar with during the trial.

25 Perhaps if the usher could put one before the witness and we can

Page 763

1 see if she can identify it first, because then we won't need to go any

2 further if that's not the case.

3 Mr. Usher, if you could just put it in front of the witness

4 first. Thank you.

5 Q. Witness 136, is this the document that you recognise as being a

6 general pass for the area?

7 A. I have to admit I destroyed the pass a few years ago. I never

8 thought that it could be used in evidence. I don't recall the words

9 "Drnis" being there. I remember that we were allowed to move around

10 Knin. It was a smaller pass. It was printed on paper that was thicker,

11 and I think it allowed us to move only around the town of Knin itself.

12 So I'm not sure this is the one.

13 The words "main roads" were not there, and those words that if we

14 veered off those main roads that we were doing that on our own

15 responsibility. I don't think that it was printed on my pass.

16 MR. KAY: We've no need to go any further with this document,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you still want to tender it?

19 MR. KAY: There's no need. It will come through into the

20 evidence in a very clear way in the future.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then it will -- I'm just wondering whether it would

22 still keep its number, that it remains to have the status of marked for

23 identification so that we know at least what document it was that the

24 witness said she did not --

25 MR. KAY: Very well, Your Honour. If that assists the Court,

Page 764

1 that's something we gladly --

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's so we have a complete record of what happened

3 in this courtroom.

4 MR. KAY: Yes. If Madam Registrar could give --

5 JUDGE ORIE: We then would have for this document number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: D10 marked for identification.

7 JUDGE ORIE: D10 and it would keep at this moment the status of

8 marked for identification. Please proceed. It's not tendered.

9 MR. KAY:

10 Q. Because General Cermak issued a documents in a series of

11 correspondence to General Forand relating to the unblocking of the UN

12 from that camp on the 8th of August, do you recollect that as happening?

13 A. I never had any contacts with the General Forand, so I don't know

14 anything about their correspondence, but I'm increasingly certain that

15 the document that you showed me was not the text that we had on our

16 passes, because our passes indicated that we were only free to move

17 around the town of Knin.

18 Q. Yes. The document that we've looked at clearly enables a person

19 to travel in the Knin-Drnis area.

20 A. I don't know about Drnis. I had the pass only for Knin. But I

21 ventured far further afield.

22 Q. When you were working with the UN, you were able to travel

23 outside Knin?

24 A. Yes, but that was on my own responsibility, and that is why many

25 of the interpreters did not dare to do so. I did there, but I knew that

Page 765

1 I was responsible for any consequences.

2 Q. And indeed your statement that we've looked at shows that you

3 travelled around the region.

4 A. Yes, I did travel. I went far from Knin, and I cannot now

5 believe that I actually dared to take so many risks.

6 Q. The people when you travelled who you were with were -- were all

7 from the UN camp or the European Monitoring Mission?

8 A. Not European Community. I don't think that I patrolled with them

9 at any time. There were UN military observers and a UN civilian police.

10 I never went out on my own.

11 Q. So are you telling me that when you went out on your journeys

12 those were not journeys that were mixed journeys between the UN and the

13 European Monitoring Mission, European observers?

14 A. There were joint patrols. We called them HRAT teams,

15 Human Rights Action Teams, that were mostly composed of the people from

16 the press office, the UN military observers, UN civilian police, maybe

17 even the UN military police, but as for the European Community, I would

18 encounter them from time to time, but I did not go on patrols with them

19 specifically.

20 Q. The first day that you left the camp was the 9th of August?

21 A. Yes, that's correct, to attend the meeting at the police station.

22 Q. And that police station was with the chief of the Knin police

23 station; is that right?

24 MR. KAY: Turn to page 5, Your Honours.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The first meeting was

Page 766

1 attended by the chief, Mr. Cedo Romanic, his deputy Mr. Zvonko Gambiroza

2 and another person. I'm not quite sure, I think that this person had

3 come from Zagreb, possibly, from some ministry or other. But I don't

4 recall that person's name.

5 MR. KAY:

6 Q. Would that have been the commander of the Knin police station,

7 Mr. Mihic?

8 A. No. The third person was not Mr. Milos Mihic.

9 Q. But as it happens when you had that meeting with Mr. Romanic and

10 the UN representatives, you presumably were acting as the translator for

11 the UN officers speaking to Mr. Romanic?

12 A. Yes. I was there as an interpreter, but I have to admit that

13 although they tried talking to Mr. Romanic, it was Mr. Gambiroza who

14 provided all the answers.

15 Q. And what was the purpose of the meeting between the UN

16 representatives and the local police?

17 A. I recall that first meeting quite vividly. On the agenda of that

18 meeting was the reopening of the UN civilian police stations in Knin

19 itself and the area around it. In other words, the UN civilian police

20 was supposed to resume its normal activities and start patrolling the

21 area.

22 Another issue that was raised was whether the UN personnel and

23 their auxiliary staff, in other words the interpreters, may go out and

24 retrieve their personal belongings that remained in the apartments that

25 they were renting, and permission was given for that.

Page 767

1 Q. Dealing with the first part of your answer about the opening of

2 the UN police station, whereabouts was that in Knin?

3 A. The first police in Knin was opened near the secondary school.

4 Q. And was there a police station opened for the local Knin police,

5 the Croatian Knin police?

6 A. I know that seven police stations were operational at that time

7 and two substations of the Croatian police. I don't know how many UN

8 police stations were operational or open. I can't recall where they were

9 located. They were being opened -- opened gradually, and I didn't really

10 go out into the field, and I was located at the headquarters so I can't

11 recall where the UN police stations were located.

12 Q. This first meeting, did that take place in the Knin police

13 station as run by the local Croatian police commander?

14 A. Yes. It was the same building that had been used by the Serbian

15 police before, so it was in the very same building. It was in

16 Mr. Cedo Romanic's office.

17 Q. And how far was the UN police station from this building?

18 A. At that time the UN police station was not opened outside of the

19 headquarters or the base. The base was maybe a kilometre and a half, two

20 or three kilometres, away on the other side of the town.

21 Q. Moving to the second part of the original question about the

22 meeting. You referred to being given permission by the police chief

23 Romanic to go to UN properties to collect personal belongings.

24 A. Yes. Mr. Romanic, and Mr. Gambiroza because he did most of the

25 talking, allowed for several UN teams to go out into the field, but we

Page 768

1 were supposed to supply the names of the interpreters and team members

2 who would go out on that specific day and visit the apartments that

3 belonged to them and to their colleagues to retrieve those personal

4 belongings.

5 Q. And the UN offices that you were with, did they accept the terms

6 that were being given to them by Mr. Romanic?

7 A. Yes. I was accompanied by Mr. E.J. Flynn from the Human Rights

8 office and the head of the UN civilian police Mr. Norman Boucher or

9 something like that. They were with me, but Mr. Boucher was from Canada.

10 Q. You've referred to being present over the next month at various

11 places where crimes had been committed, and you were able to make

12 observations when you were part of the UN team visiting such locations.

13 That's right, isn't it?

14 A. Yes. Unfortunately, I saw quite a few people who had been

15 killed.

16 Q. I'm not going to ask you more about that. I'm just setting the

17 ground for the next question as we've got your statement that gives the

18 detail.

19 Did you accompany the UN police or UN monitors who had observed

20 crime scenes in the region? Did you accompany them to report them to the

21 local police station in Knin?

22 A. Yes. Well, they seldom went on patrols without interpreters. I

23 was one of the interpreters who was most often prepared to go out with

24 them, and that's exactly what I did.

25 Q. And if you could just tell us what the procedure was then. Your

Page 769

1 statement clearly details you moving around the region, that you made

2 observations. The Prosecution have introduced a few documents which are

3 linked to occasions when you were in the area.

4 How was the procedure adopted by which these incidents or what

5 you had seen, how was it reported to the local police?

6 A. Well, the procedure that had been agreed was as follows: If any

7 foreign observer team finds a dead body, first the report is to be made

8 to the UN civilian police and then the UN civilian police informed the

9 Croatian police either in writing or orally and then the Croatian police

10 was supposed to notify the Croatian civilian protection and they were

11 supposed to pick up the bodies and bury them.

12 Q. Just looking at that procedure which you've given in a very clear

13 way, I'd like to look at it in a little bit more detail. Do you

14 understand?

15 A. Fine.

16 Q. It's apparent from your evidence that the UN personnel you were

17 with didn't speak the Croatian language sufficiently well to communicate

18 to the local police commander.

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. So presumably you would be interpreting if you were involved in

21 such a report between the UN personnel and interpreting to the local

22 police?

23 A. Yes. If it was done orally. If it was done in writing, it was

24 done by my colleagues who had not agreed to leave the UN base.

25 Q. Shall we just deal with -- with your role, but that's very

Page 770

1 helpful that you've told us that it was also done in writing.

2 Did you go to the local police station in the region where you

3 were? It may not necessarily have been Knin. It might have been another

4 of the seven police stations. Did you go there with the team to report

5 inside the office at the police station?

6 A. Yes. Sometimes I'd go, because at times, specifically for the

7 bodies that were in Zelenbabe, we made at least 10 reports asking for the

8 bodies to be removed because the bodies had been there for 20 days at

9 least.

10 We went to the police station and we notified them. Sometimes we

11 would tell about that to the police patrols if we encountered them, but I

12 didn't go to any other Croatian police stations in the Knin area.

13 Q. Did you only report then to the Knin police station rather than

14 any of the other district stations?

15 A. I don't know if any other teams made any reports to other police

16 stations, but I specifically made those reports only at the Knin police

17 stations either with the duty police officer or at the Knin police

18 station which was located at the same building where Mr. Cedo Romanic and

19 Mr. Gambiroza were located. That was in the town centre, the centre of

20 Knin.

21 Q. Presumably you would be translating back to the UN personnel what

22 you had been spoken about by the local police officer, be it the chief or

23 one of the more junior officers?

24 A. Yes, of course. I was the interpreter.

25 Q. And when you were in the Knin police station, what was the

Page 771

1 set-up? Did you go to a desk where there was an officer?

2 A. I have to admit that we never did spend much time there when we

3 made those reports. It was always done in passing, because we always had

4 so many tasks and so many places to go to. So we did not sit down there

5 and talk at length. We just said bodies were found at such-and-such a

6 place and that was it.

7 Q. Was a report handed over or a list of details handed over to any

8 of the officers, police officers, at the station?

9 A. I don't remember any written reports being submitted in my

10 presence, but it is quite possible that the translators working on

11 written reports did that, but you have to check that with the UN

12 representatives.

13 Q. Yes. I understand. The details that you gave to the police

14 officer in the police station, were they recorded by that police officer

15 in any way?

16 A. I don't recall that. I remember, though, that the police patrol

17 would sometimes be with us. Actually, when we found bodies they would

18 come fairly quickly, but I don't recall how this administrative procedure

19 went exactly.

20 Q. And the officer that you would speak to at the Knin police

21 station, was it the same officer or was it different officers to whom

22 these reports were made?

23 A. I think it -- those were different police officers. I don't

24 really remember them all. I remember maybe three or four police officers

25 that I could recognise now, but there were many of them, so I don't

Page 772

1 remember them all.

2 Q. How many times did you visit the Knin police station to make

3 these reports?

4 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps ten times, let's say.

5 Q. Did they require the UN to sign for any information or sign any

6 report that had been made?

7 A. No. Unfortunately, these were -- these conversations were much

8 too formal.

9 Q. Just taking up the last word that you used there, was this an

10 informal reporting procedure that you made to the police station saying

11 to them what you had seen in relation to a body in a road or a place?

12 A. Yes. I misspoke. That's how it was. We would come in. We

13 would say that's what we saw here or there. We tried to describe the

14 location as specifically as possible, and that's how it was done.

15 Q. Right. Did you know if the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay --

17 MR. KAY:

18 Q. -- police officers?

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm looking at the clock. Could you find a

20 suitable moment for a break within the next two or three minutes.

21 MR. KAY: I'll be continuing with this subject but if I may be

22 permitted just to finish this question, Your Honours --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

24 MR. KAY: -- it follows on.

25 Q. Did you know if the police officers you were speaking to were

Page 773

1 from the region or whether they were from outside the region?

2 A. I don't understand. Do you mean whether they were from Knin

3 originally or -- I don't understand your question in fact.

4 Q. Yes. This is a newly liberated area. I don't know if they had

5 local people working in the police station or people that had been

6 drafted from outside the region to lend a hand whilst the police station

7 was being set up. Do you understand the question?

8 A. Yes, I do, but you know that I myself am not from Knin

9 originally, so I wouldn't be able to recognise any of the returnees. I

10 didn't actually recognise any of them, and I never got into that kind of

11 conversation with any of them in which I would be asking them where they

12 were from.

13 Q. Yes. I wasn't putting it in quite that formal way but whether

14 they'd said, "I don't know where this village is. You'll have to point

15 it out to me because I don't know this part."

16 A. Well, I went to most of these villages then for the first time

17 and sometimes for the last time. So as you can see from my statement, my

18 descriptions were very detailed. Two hundred metres from the

19 intersection with the main road. I had to describe this in much more

20 detailed terms because of my own ignorance.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that's a convenient moment.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break. Before we do so, Mr. Kehoe, I

24 had a closer look at D9 and there seems to be some ambiguity in the

25 language as a person being charged for the event the witness described.

Page 774

1 You started using the expression "charged by the investigation," which I

2 understand to be that the investigation points at this person as a likely

3 perpetrator.

4 Now, the document of the 3rd of January, 1996, I see, seems to be

5 a report sent by the police to the military prosecutor's office just

6 giving the result of the investigations.

7 Now, in terms of charging people, I also see that suspect has

8 been interviewed when he was in Zadar prison. The document doesn't -- is

9 not clear as to why he is in Zadar prison, whether it's for this

10 incident, for any other reason.

11 Is there any follow-up known as far as charges against this

12 person in the more formal sense, that is being charged before a court and

13 then whether convicted or acquitted? Is there any follow-up? Because

14 you tendered this from the bar table so we're not limited to what the

15 witness told us about this, because the Chamber of course is interested

16 in follow-up given to investigations which deal with the kinds of events

17 the witness has described.

18 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this point I need to get some

19 follow-up documentation on this. There is followup documentation I've

20 been informed, and I will supplement this with possibly a 9A, D9A exhibit

21 to give the complete dossier on this particular subject.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so we really know what the follow-up finally

23 resulted in.

24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And what it encompassed.

Page 775

1 So then we will have a break until five minutes past 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, you may proceed.

5 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. I'm turning to page 15 of Exhibit P2, and it's just finishing

7 this matter of reporting to the police, Madam Witness.

8 In your statement you detail an occasion when you visit your

9 uncle's apartment, and you'd had a permission from Mr. Romanic to visit

10 there, and you went with a UN officer and a local policeman; is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. The local policeman started stealing from your uncle's apartment,

14 I take it under your very nose?

15 A. Yes. As soon as we entered the apartment and I gave his name, he

16 took out a black plastic bag and started putting things inside saying he

17 was getting married soon and that he needed these things, and he said, "I

18 know your uncle from our school days. He's a good man. I remember him,

19 and tell him that I'm taking this as a memento," and he filled the bag.

20 Q. Did the UN officer tell him not to do that?

21 A. The UN officer was in front of the entrance. He didn't come

22 inside.

23 Q. Did you report it to the UN officer?

24 A. I told him this, but it didn't attract any attention. Everyone

25 was taking whatever they could left and right. The flat had already been

Page 776

1 looted, so one thing more or less it didn't make much difference.

2 Q. Did you tell Mr. Romanic and report it?

3 A. I didn't.

4 Q. Last matter I'm going to ask you questions about, and I'm turning

5 to page 10 of Exhibit P2, third paragraph down dealing with the 21st of

6 August.

7 Witness 136, on that day you visited the Plavno area. If you

8 could just confirm that.

9 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact date. I can't see the

10 statement, but I did visit Plavno, and I can assume the incident you're

11 referring to.

12 Q. We can take it the date is right in your statement of 21st of

13 August?

14 A. Yes. All the dates in my statement are based on the notes I kept

15 at the UN compound.

16 Q. And it was on that day that you went with a large number of UN

17 officers. There was the UNHCR, UNCIVPOL, UN observers, civil affairs,

18 and in your statement it says military police. Was that UN military

19 police or a military police from the Croatian army?

20 A. UN military police. UN military police.

21 Q. About how many people are we talking about going into the region

22 on that day, the 21st of August?

23 A. There were quite a lot, because the plan was for General -- for

24 the general allowed people from Plavno to seek shelter in the UN base,

25 and that is why we went there. I know there were two trucks with Kenyan

Page 777

1 soldiers. There was an Indonesian ambulance and some ten or so

2 Indonesian soldiers or medical staff. There was a UNHCR car with the

3 main representative of that organisation. A car of the UN civil affairs

4 with the lady who was the head of that office. And I think another two

5 vehicles of the UN civil police. I can't tell you the number but there

6 were many of us.

7 Q. That gives a clear picture, if I may say so, of the numbers of

8 people, but this was a project set up by General Forand; is that right?

9 A. In our -- in the previous visit to the village of Plavno the

10 people were afraid and they said that 11 people had already been killed

11 in the village and they had buried them between the houses because they

12 were frightened, and they said that they wanted to seek shelter at the UN

13 base. I passed this on at -- to the UN base, and whether it was

14 General Forand or someone below him that made this decision, but it was

15 decided that we should try and transport the people who wanted to seek

16 shelter on that day.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, if you would allow me for one clarifying

18 question. You described the -- those who participated in that mission on

19 that day. Do I understand you well that this was the total of people

20 that is -- that after you had split up that you were in a smaller group?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reason for us splitting up is

22 that UN representatives, especially the civil affairs, they talked to the

23 people. Some people had already come with their small bundles, and they

24 said it would be best for them to stay there for a few more days to

25 register with the Croatian authorities, that they would make sure that

Page 778

1 they would be safe in the village, and they tried to postpone their

2 transfer to the UN compound.

3 After that, we split into two groups and decided to carry out a

4 more detailed patrol of the village.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So then you were in a smaller group after you had

6 split up.

7 Thank you. Please proceed.

8 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Were any of the people in the district that you were concerned

10 with on this day actually taken back to the UN camp, transported, if you

11 like?

12 A. Yes. A man from the village of Otrici who said that he had been

13 wandering in the woods for about 15 days and hiding there, and another

14 man who said that he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and that he

15 couldn't wait for another day for that registration. So these two men

16 did go back to the camp.

17 Q. It's about the registration that I'm going to ask you some

18 questions now. That was registration with which authority?

19 A. They were told that UN staff would talk to the Croatian

20 authorities for these people who remained to be registered, I assume with

21 the Croatian police, to be received some ID documents. That was the

22 promise they was given -- the promise they were given, that they would be

23 registered with the Croatian authorities.

24 Q. So it seems although the group from the UN went there on that

25 day, the actual mission of taking the people to the UN camp was not

Page 779

1 achieved.

2 A. Yes. I have to admit that the whole situation disturbed me,

3 because I saw how terrified the people were. I saw that the so-called

4 cleansing of the village had started, Zaturc [phoen] and Torbice, to the

5 left of Plavno, and I realised that the real cleansing was only

6 beginning, and I expected other incidents, and I was sorry and,

7 unfortunately, there were other incidents. The incident in Grubori I

8 occurred just a couple of days later and I am really sorry that the

9 people who had been ready to move had they had been taken to the UN camp,

10 the incident in Grubori would have been avoided. I was seriously

11 disturbed when I realised that they would be left there without

12 protection and I didn't wish to interpret. It was my colleague who took

13 over.

14 Q. So General Forand's plan for that day was not followed through?

15 A. No, it wasn't, because it was quite easy to persuade old people

16 not to leave their homes, that they should keep their homes, that they

17 would be protected, and they gave them some hope that they could stay

18 where they were, because nobody really wanted to abandon their homes.

19 They were elderly people.

20 Q. The purpose was to register them as individuals in the area with

21 the police. That was the purpose, was it, that caused them to be left

22 there?

23 A. Yes. The representative of civil affairs explained to them that

24 they would contact the Croatian authorities, the Croatian police, and as

25 a result they would be given protection, and the number of people

Page 780

1 remaining would be registered, and through this registration they would

2 be given protection, and they would receive ID documents, and that was

3 what was promised to them.

4 Q. Thank you. It seemed a long way, but it was about that matter

5 that I was asking you -- you questions.

6 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that finishes my questioning of the

7 witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

9 Mr. Mikulicic.

10 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic, who is counsel for

11 Mr. Martic.

12 Please proceed.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,

15 Witness 136. As His Honour has said, my name is Goran Mikulicic, and I

16 am an attorney, Defence counsel for the third accused General Markac.

17 Allow me to put a few questions to you.

18 Without wasting time, let me ask you a few questions that you can

19 simply answer with a yes or no.

20 Is it true that you were employed as an interpreter for the

21 civilian police of the United Nations from the 11th of June, 1994 until

22 the 16th of September, 1995?

23 A. No. From the month of August 1994.

24 Q. Very well. Is it true that in your statement you declared that

25 you were of Serbian ethnicity?

Page 781

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it true that finding employment in the UN, you signed a kind

3 of contract and a statement of some kind?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you tell us in a few sentences what kind of statement you

6 signed when finding employment with the UN?

7 A. The contract itself implied that we must not reveal any

8 information, that we must observe everything and respect everything that

9 was going on at the UN. It meant observance of all the rules of the

10 United Nations, including the confidentiality of information.

11 Q. Does that include your obligation to be impartial in relation to

12 the environment you're working in?

13 A. Yes, certainly. My work was of a humanitarian nature.

14 Q. I understand. We'll move on to your work. You were an

15 interpreter, were you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were the duties of an interpreter in the UN civil police?

18 A. In the period when I worked in Vrlika, I occasionally interpreted

19 orally meetings with the police, but I worked for the longest period of

20 time in Vrlika, but the rest was patrolling the area and visiting the

21 remaining Croatian inhabitants.

22 Q. I understand that. But when you say patrolling, does that

23 include -- does that imply that you personally were investigating

24 something or were you accompanying people who were doing the

25 investigation as an interpreter?

Page 782

1 A. I was an interpreter, and we visited the Croats who were there,

2 mostly elderly people. Whether everything was all right, whether they

3 had enough food, whether anyone was mistreating them. Sometimes I would

4 buy them things out of my own pocket.

5 Q. I understand that. In your statement, in several places you said

6 that you prepared certain lists. Let me remind you. You visited the

7 Knin cemetery and you made a list which has been produced as evidence in

8 this case. Were you doing that as part of your duties as an interpreter

9 of the UN civil police or did you do that upon your own initiative?

10 A. Working at the UN camp I would repeatedly come across questions

11 from people as to who had been buried at the Knin cemetery. So with the

12 approval of my superior I made such a list for an official report and

13 also for my personal notes.

14 Q. I understand that, madam, but my question was whether this was an

15 instruction given from one of your superiors?

16 A. No. But I also said --

17 Q. Thank you. How many interpreters were employed at the Knin camp?

18 A. I don't know how many before the Storm, but 15 of us remained.

19 Q. How many interpreters were employed in the UN civil police?

20 A. I don't know how many before the Storm, but four of us remained

21 from the civil police.

22 Q. I am referring to your statement, so please correct me if I'm

23 wrong. One of the four interpreters was of Croatian ethnicity?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. WAESPI: Mr. --

Page 783

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

2 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, just before the reference line 52, 16

3 to 18 disappears, the question was whether drawing up that list was done

4 on the instructions given from one of your superiors, the witness said:

5 "No, but I also said" and then it stops. If the witness could repeat

6 what her explanation was.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, Witness 136, could you please repeat your

8 answer that you gave to your -- your rather short answer you gave to the

9 question whether it was -- whether you were instructed to make this list.

10 The answer was no, but then you added something. Could you please repeat

11 what you then added.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I didn't receive any

13 instruction, but it was appreciated if I provided any additional

14 information to the UN civil police about the remaining people. If I took

15 note of that, either about the people who remained or about the people

16 who had been killed.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do we then have to understand your answer as it's

18 written that they thanked you for this additional activity?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, it was counsel who said thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's now -- I see that there is some confusion about

22 who said what. I think that my question lacks further relevance and that

23 the matter is clear enough unless -- Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I -- this might be an opportune time

25 just to mention that when counsel and the witness are speaking in the

Page 784

1 same language that they're --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was considering to tell this in advance, but

3 Witness 136, you are speaking the same language as Mr. Mikulicic.

4 Therefore, often you start answering the question already when the

5 translation of the question has not yet been finished. So could you make

6 a short break.

7 And, Mr. Mikulicic, would you make a short break before you put

8 your next question to the witness.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. So from what we've heard, by making those lists and notifying the

12 people about their close relatives who may have been killed or not, this

13 is what you did on your own initiative because you wanted to assist

14 people; is that correct?

15 A. No.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Yes.

17 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Could I please refer you to a paragraph in your statement

19 beginning with the word "among." You said that there was a Croat woman

20 by the name of (redacted). She was employed as an interpreter there.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mikulicic, finding a paragraph starting

22 with "Among" where we have some 15 pages causes some problems. Could you

23 tell us which statement, the 1996 or the later statement, and then also

24 where approximately to find it. I have only the -- it's only in English.

25 MR. WAESPI: I see a reference on page 4, on Exhibit page 2, the

Page 785

1 second complete paragraph from the top.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you referring to the paragraph which

3 starts with "Among us interpreters was a Croat woman"? Is that the

4 paragraph you're drawing the attention of the witness to?

5 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's the

6 paragraph that I'm referring to. Unfortunately, the transcript does not

7 reflect my words what I said, that it was a paragraph at page 4. What I

8 omitted to say is that I'm talking about the 1996 statement. So I do

9 apologise. I hope I won't be making any more references of this nature.

10 Q. So let us go back to the question, Witness 136. Is it true that

11 among you interpreters there was a Croat woman by the name of

12 (redacted)?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall an incident, if I may call it that, when you made a

15 protest about her conduct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. According to your statement, she conveyed the information to the

18 Croat soldiers outside of the UN base; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Two paragraphs further down in your statement you say that there

21 were quite a few Croats inside the UN camp. Is that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, my question to you is as follows: What was the motive?

24 What led you to protest against the fact that your colleague notified the

25 Croat soldiers outside of the camp about Croats inside the camp where in

Page 786

1 fact you did the same thing for some other persons of Serb ethnicity?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, this is a composite question, the

3 first part of the question being what moved this witness to do what she

4 did. Then you intertwined with that question another matter, which is

5 whether it was fair to do so because, as you say, she had done the same.

6 Could you -- the second one asks for a judgement. I would not

7 oppose against asking such a question whether she considered herself that

8 to be fair, but could we split up those questions clearly?

9 So the first thing, Witness 136, Mr. Mikulicic would like to know

10 is why you complained about the behaviour of (redacted).

11 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

13 MR. WAESPI: Can we briefly go into private session?

14 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 787

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 136, could you tell us why you complained

6 about, but -- but before you do so.

7 Mr. Mikulicic, in your question it was implied that -- at least

8 let me check that carefully. Yes. You implied in your question that

9 what the colleague interpreter did is to inform the Croats about the

10 presence of Croats inside the camp. Now, what her statement tells us is

11 that she told, as far as I see, she started telling them everything that

12 was going on in the camp. That might well have included what you just

13 mentioned, but that's not to be taken from that statement at this moment.

14 So we'd first like to know whether this interpreter, your

15 colleague, informed the Croat soldiers outside about the presence of

16 Croats inside the camp. Was that part of what she conveyed to the

17 soldiers?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Her motive was of a completely

19 different kind, to --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. I'm not talking about her motive

21 at this moment, just about the content of what she told the Croatian

22 soldiers, that is, did that cover also the presence of Croats inside the

23 camp?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What she said as she rushed

25 out of the gate, she said, "There are over 500 people here. They are in

Page 788

1 the cinema. I am a Croat." That's all I heard her say. I didn't hear

2 what she went on to say, because I started making protests, and the

3 monitors who were standing there were also making protests, and her

4 boyfriend the police sector chief was quiet, and that really upset me. I

5 thought that he should use his official position to prevent those

6 civilians from going out and saying things.

7 We prevented people from going out. We shut them up in the

8 cinema hall. I personally locked all the doors because we didn't want

9 the drunken soldiers who would come in to know that there were civilians

10 in the base at all.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Mikulicic, next question I take it, still

12 is, Mr. Mikulicic, why you complained although, Mr. Mikulicic, the last

13 answer gives already a lot of explanation. If you'd like to put

14 additional questions in respect to this to the witness, please do so.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think

16 that this actually exhausted my interest in this issue.

17 Q. When you mentioned the boyfriend of this interpreter that you

18 complained about, if you allow me I will ask two more questions about

19 your former boyfriend.

20 We heard that he had been a member of the special forces in the

21 army of Republic of Serb Krajina. Do you know who was the commander of

22 this special unit of the special forces?

23 A. I don't know, and I wasn't interested.

24 Q. Let me remind you or jog your memory. Does the name

25 Dragan Vasiljkovic, nicknamed Captain Dragan, does it mean anything to

Page 789

1 you?

2 A. No. I never heard of that name.

3 Q. Thank you. Is it true that the UN forces had armoured personnel

4 carriers and other vehicles in the base where you were?

5 A. UN personnel did have some kind of armoured personnel carriers

6 and also some other vehicles, yes.

7 Q. Although it is a notorious fact but just for the record, could

8 you please tell us what colour were those vehicles?

9 A. White.

10 Q. Did they bear any insignia at the sides?

11 A. Yes, "UN."

12 Q. May I then conclude on your behalf, and please correct me if I'm

13 wrong, that it was possible to recognise those vehicles very easily, even

14 at a distance?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In your statement, that is the 1996 statement at page 3, the last

17 paragraph, you say that you saw as you ran along the fence some 20

18 soldiers and a tank were coming on the road from Drnis, and you thought

19 that they were "our soldiers." These are your words.

20 A. Yes, I remember that.

21 Q. When you used the word "our soldiers," were you referring to the

22 UN soldiers?

23 A. No, I meant Serb soldiers.

24 Q. Thank you. Were you referring to the army of Republika Srpska

25 under the command of Milan Martic, who was sentenced to 35 years in

Page 790

1 prison for war crimes?

2 A. I was referring to the Serb soldiers that had given me

3 protection, regardless of under whose command they were.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, could you please remain in

5 unnecessary comment in your question. If you would have to refer to the

6 sentence persons received whenever you refer to them, then it might take

7 us some time now and then. That's one. And apart from that, it's not

8 relevant for the question, since we all know who Milan Martic is.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. In your statement from 1996, at page 15, the penultimate

12 paragraph, you say that you didn't pay much attention to the Croatian

13 soldiers and that you did not notice their unit names or the badges they

14 wore on their uniforms; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Let me ask you this: Were you able, on the basis of the colour

17 of their uniforms, to distinguish the Croatian army and the Croatian

18 police units?

19 A. I know that there were two kinds of uniforms, plain green and

20 camouflage uniforms, but I don't know which were the regular army units

21 in some and which were special units and I know that some wore ribbons on

22 their shoulders and around their head.

23 Q. This brings me to the incident in Grubori which you mention in

24 your 1996 statement at page 11. That's the 7th paragraph where you say

25 that you were in the village of Grubori on the 26th of August; is that

Page 791

1 correct?

2 A. Yes. It's correct that I went to Grubori, but it was one day

3 after the incident, not on the day when the incident took place.

4 Q. You said that were accompanying UN personnel. I don't want to

5 now list them, but that you were not allowed to enter the village. You

6 were stopped by Croatian soldiers or the police; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. We were stopped at the check-point at the entrance to the

8 village. We were not allowed to enter the village because they were in

9 the process of removing the bodies from the village of Grubori.

10 Q. Can you perhaps recollect with greater accuracy today who it was

11 that prevented you, the UN delegation, from entering the village? Was it

12 the police, the civilian police, the military police, or was it the armed

13 forces?

14 A. Unfortunately, I cannot recall even the colour of their uniforms,

15 whether this was the police or the army.

16 Q. Thank you. You have just answered the next question that I had

17 in mind so I will not ask it.

18 In your statement we heard that today you said that you had

19 participated together with the civilian police of the United Nations in

20 reporting the crimes to the police organs of the civilian authorities of

21 the Republic of Croatia.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you present at any time when a crime or a complaint was

24 reported to anyone else apart from the civilian police?

25 A. The only place that I went to was the civilian police station,

Page 792

1 and once to the headquarters to a meeting with the liaison officer.

2 Q. Although it is quite clear from your answer, let me ask you to

3 make this absolutely clear. Were you ever a member of a team or a group

4 that reported certain crimes or criminal activities to the units of the

5 Special Police?

6 A. I don't know what the units of the Special Police were. I

7 attended just one meeting at the headquarters. Whether the

8 representatives there were those of the Special Police, the ordinary

9 police or the army, I don't know.

10 Q. Witness 136, you said a little while ago that you know that

11 members of the Special Police wore green uniforms.

12 A. I said that I didn't know that. I said that I knew that there

13 were two kinds of uniforms, but I don't know what kind was worn by the

14 army and what kind by the Special Police.

15 Q. Fine. Thank you for your answer.

16 Witness 136, why did you say -- now I'm talking about your 2007

17 statement, page 5. At the very end of this statement you said that you

18 do not agree to your statement being used by the authorities other than

19 the present Tribunal at the discretion of the Office of the Prosecutor of

20 the -- this Tribunal.

21 A. Because I gave my statement to the investigators of The Hague

22 Tribunal, and before that I had also given a statement to a

23 non-governmental organisation in Belgrade. I do not want to give any

24 statements to anyone else.

25 Q. Witness 136, I'm not asking you whether you want or whether you

Page 793

1 don't want to give any statements to anyone else. I'm asking you why you

2 don't want your statement that you had already given to anybody else, for

3 anyone else's use apart from this Tribunal.

4 A. Well, I don't know who else might use my statement, might want to

5 use my statement.

6 Q. Well, perhaps the judicial organs of the Republic of Croatia, the

7 Republic of Serbia, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

8 A. The only place where I want to give my evidence right now is this

9 Tribunal.

10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

11 no further questions.

12 Thank you, Witness 136, for your answers.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Waespi, is there any need to

14 re-examine the witness?

15 MR. WAESPI: Yes, about ten minutes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed.

17 Re-examination by Mr. Waespi:

18 Q. Witness, yesterday in answering questions from my colleague

19 Mr. Kehoe, you talked about the time where you -- when you were working

20 in the Vrlika area. You remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you give us a page then we are better able to

23 follow.

24 MR. WAESPI: That's on page 50, line 20.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you also, otherwise, give us a little portion

Page 794

1 of the text because the newly uploaded transcript of yesterday is with

2 new page numbers. That's the sequential page numbering. So that starts

3 at 616 at the moment. And you said it was page --

4 MR. WAESPI: 50. The witness talks about Cetina being shelled

5 before Operation Storm.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But you just -- you said it was page 50. So 616

7 plus 50 makes 666. Thank you.


9 Q. When you said, Witness, that Cetina had been shelled several

10 times before Operation Storm, can you first tell us where Cetina is in

11 relation to Knin?

12 A. Cetina is a village in the area of Vrlika, very close to the

13 separation line.

14 Q. And is that east or west of Knin?

15 A. I'm afraid I can't tell you that. I don't know.

16 Q. Very well. And when you said it had been shelled several times

17 before Operation Storm, what time frame are you talking about? Which

18 months and which year?

19 A. I don't know. It may have been a month prior to this, and it

20 wasn't just Cetina that was shelled but the area towards Otisic and the

21 lake there, several times, because I belonged to the harvest team which

22 was designed to encourage people, regardless of the shelling, to go and

23 harvest the wheat.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. And as far as you can recall, were there any

25 military targets in Cetina and the other villages you say were shelled?

Page 795

1 MR. KEHOE: I object, Judge. This witness has got no basis to

2 say what is a military target and not a military target in Cetina.

3 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness can.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just re-read the question.

5 Well, we could ask perhaps not about military targets but,

6 Mr. Waespi, perhaps you could ask the witness then whether she was aware

7 of any military presence, military facilities such as barracks that are

8 matters of fact that the witness could testify about. If she doesn't

9 know, that does not necessarily mean that there were no military targets,

10 but they could be unknown to the witness. But that is a factual question

11 Mr. Waespi can put to the witness. So to partly your objection is

12 sustained.

13 MR. KEHOE: If I may just talk, one last issue here, Judge. This

14 was not part of either direct or cross-examination, the shelling of

15 Cetina that took place. I didn't ask any questions and I don't believe

16 my colleagues did and certainly counsel is opening up another area. This

17 is not redirect, it's in fact new direct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, could you tell us what caused you to put

19 this question now and not at any earlier stage seeking further

20 clarification of the testimony?

21 MR. WAESPI: The way I understood redirect, Mr. President, is any

22 issues that arise out of cross-examination. This is an issue that has

23 been raised by Mr. Kehoe and the witness answered it.

24 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I did not ask any shelling questions

25 about Cetina.

Page 796

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, Mr. Waespi, could you refer to the exact

2 source where Mr. Kehoe is, as you say, dealing with this matter in

3 cross-examination?

4 MR. WAESPI: That's the page reference I gave to you a moment

5 ago.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- yes. That's -- which I'm still -- let me

7 just -- I said -- I was calculating, wasn't it. To 666 I came, I think.

8 MR. WAESPI: The issue was --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give the literal text then it's easier to

10 find.

11 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The answer of the witness starts: "There are

12 many elements why there was this build-up of fear in Knin. I worked in

13 the Vrlika area and when all the nine UN stations were shut down," and

14 then it goes on.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Has anyone found it already? I have not found it

16 yet.

17 MR. WAESPI: And as I indicated, the issue the Defence was

18 dealing with was that build-up of fear.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I'll allow to put these questions.

20 Build-up of fear. It could make a difference on whether shelling was of

21 one type or another. Please proceed but don't ask about military targets

22 but ask about her knowledge of military presence or military

23 installations. Well, phrase your question as long as it does not require

24 a judgement. Please proceed.

25 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 797

1 Q. Witness, as far as you recall, as far as you remember, was there

2 any military presence, any soldiers, any installations you were aware of

3 at that time in Cetina or any of the other villages you mentioned having

4 been shelled?

5 A. Specifically in the village of Cetina, I think that there was

6 absolutely no military presence, and I can say the same for the

7 surroundings of the Peruca Lake. There was no military presence there.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you want to say that you were not

10 aware of any military presence, which of course is not exactly the same

11 as that there was no military presence, but you didn't observe anything

12 of that kind. Is that well-understood?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is well-understood. I

14 didn't notice. There may have been up in the hills somewhere, but I

15 didn't see any.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Just to make matters clear, who was shelling these villages, if

19 you know?

20 A. The Croatian --

21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I mean the answer is pure speculation.

22 I mean, she doesn't know. If she knows, was she with HV troops when the

23 shelling was actually takes place or with ARSK troops?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, it's a quite simple question and I really

25 have carefully listened to your colleague. The question is who did it,

Page 798

1 if you know. There are a few possible answers. One, I don't know. Then

2 the question is answered. And if the witness says she does know, then

3 she can tell us what she knows, and then of course we'll carefully look

4 at whether it's knowledge of fact she observed herself or whether it was

5 hearsay.

6 Please answer the question. Do you know who shelled this

7 location?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went deep within the lines and I

9 know where the observation posts of the Croatian soldiers were, and it

10 was visible that they had approached the hill above Cetina and they were

11 shelling from the hills above Cetina. They held their positions there.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, perhaps we could further explore what

13 exactly then the witness saw when she said that they were shelling the --

14 whether she did see any armament or whether she saw any crews. Please

15 proceed.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

17 Q. Witness, could you answer the questions the Presiding Judge is

18 interested in?

19 A. I can answer the question. I had the good fortune that whenever

20 I patrolled in a car with a Portuguese member of my team there was no

21 shelling, but through UN reports you can verify that the fields where

22 people were harvesting were shelled. And on one occasion I attended a

23 funeral where people were terrified, because a couple of days prior to

24 that a shell had fallen close to the cemetery.

25 Q. Yes. Thanks for the answer, Witness, but the issue was

Page 799

1 whether -- what kind of armament, if you saw any armament, on the side of

2 the Croatian army you have seen.

3 A. I wasn't that close to the positions to be able to see the kind

4 of weapon used. Even if I had been able to see it, I have no

5 understanding of weaponry.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let me move on --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one additional question there.

8 You said you were aware of Croat positions. Were you aware of

9 any positions of any other army in that area?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On a number of occasions I went

11 very deep within the lines, the villages of Koljani and Lapac to the

12 Kenyan observation post and they showed me at a distance of perhaps a

13 thousand metres that I mustn't show my face because there were snipers

14 there or positions of the Croatian army. This was at a distance of some

15 1.000 metres from the position of the Kenyan observation post.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I wasn't -- I wasn't --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see I haven't answered the

18 question. No, I didn't go to the other side, so I didn't see any other

19 observation posts or Serb-held positions.

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I understand your answer to be that they were

21 there, but you never went there?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see Serb positions. Or

23 maybe I didn't go far enough to reach those lines.


25 Please proceed.

Page 800

1 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Moving to the second issue. This is again yesterday's

3 transcript, page 76, lines 19 to 24, and I read the answer of the witness

4 to the issue of whether Knin suffered great damage. The witness said:

5 "Well, to tell you the truth, you are running and the shells are falling

6 all around you. You don't have an opportunity to notice many things. I

7 saw the destroyed house, the damage to the outpatient clinic, and I saw

8 house."

9 In relation to this damaged house or destroyed house, do you

10 remember prior to the start of Operation Storm whether there was any

11 military presence in or around of that house, if you know?

12 A. I know that it was a civilian house, because that is where I

13 waited for the UN civil police patrol to come and pick me up every

14 morning. So it was a civilian house.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness.

16 The third issue --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, for the record, for those who later have

18 to look at this, if anyone, that's page 692 to 693 you just referred to.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. The third issue is the issue about your boyfriend's apartment,

22 and this is page 85 on lines 17 to 20. And you have been asked the same

23 question a couple of times, so I just want to make sure that we know your

24 answer.

25 On that page 84, Mr. Kehoe asked you: "Well, did you see other

Page 801

1 soldiers living in that apartment complex?" And your answer was: "I

2 don't know what you mean by 'soldiers.' Most of the men were in

3 uniforms."

4 Now, my question is: Do you know whether there were soldiers

5 living in the house -- apartment complex your boyfriend was living in at

6 the time the Operation Storm was unfolding?

7 A. Quite possibly there may have been soldiers as well, I don't

8 know.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness. Moving on to the fourth area, just a

10 clarification.

11 You said on page 95, lines 16 to 17, when you were put questions

12 about Veritas and your work in Belgrade, that you were working for the

13 Humanitarian Law Centre. Can you just explain in one or two sentences

14 what the Humanitarian Law Centre was?

15 A. In those days I was investigating crimes that occurred during the

16 Operation Storm. So we were looking for witnesses from the Sector South

17 and Sector North. My task was to interview the witness, take a

18 statement, and later, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, we tried

19 to establish where violations were made of the human rights law, and

20 these statements were sent directly to the Tribunal.

21 Q. And just one or two words about the institution itself,

22 Humanitarian Law Centre. Who was the founder of it?

23 A. It's a non-governmental organisation which is still operational.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, the second to last issue is

25 (redacted). You were asked about her and you gave answers,

Page 802

1 page 99, line 8 to 15.

2 You were asked by my colleague Mr. Kehoe, and the quote is:

3 "Well, the Croatian soldiers escorted some people who were not wounded to

4 the UN compound, didn't they?" And you give your answer: "All I

5 remember about that specific case was her arrival." You go on.

6 Now, in relation to (redacted), did she come on her own to

7 the UN compound?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, you just quoted a portion of the

9 evidence which was redacted yesterday. At least that's what

10 Madam Registrar tells me. Of course it does appear on our transcript,

11 but -- so therefore I'm asking for a new redaction now, Madam Registrar,

12 and could you then refrain from referring to that name.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. WAESPI: Certainly, Mr. President.

15 Q. Do you recall whether that person was accompanied to the UN

16 compound by the Croatian soldiers or whether she came on her own, if you

17 recall?

18 A. I cannot remember.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness. And the last issue I wanted to discuss is

20 P11, which is an exhibit under seal. If it could be put on the screen

21 but not broadcasted, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: It will be on our screen. I see on the transcript I

23 said "our screen" but I was perhaps not very clear.


25 Q. Do you recall this?

Page 803

1 A. Yes, I was there.

2 Q. Now, I would like to ask you a couple of questions about this

3 document. It says, and I quote: "The death is believed to have occurred

4 during military attack."

5 Since you were the interpreter at that time, do you recall what

6 was actually said and by whom it was said in explaining that situation?

7 A. I remember that as there was smoke in the village, that is what

8 brought us to the village. We were looking around the village, and I

9 think it was one of the Indonesian soldiers who cried out that he had

10 found something. We came there. The body was covered with a blanket and

11 there was stones around it.

12 People were hesitant to lift the blanket. When finally the

13 blanket was removed we saw this horrific scene. No one approached close

14 enough to establish the cause of death, because the scene was dreadful.

15 Half of the body had been eaten up by animals.

16 I don't know what happened later on. I assume that the Croatian

17 police was informed about this. The body was not regularly buried, but

18 two elderly men from a neighbouring village took the body and threw it

19 into a septic tank which her son had dug. They were very old. They

20 couldn't carry her. They covered the body with earth. And the next time

21 I came, a part of the skirt of that woman was there. So she wasn't

22 buried in the cemetery, and I don't know what the wounds were, how they

23 were inflicted.

24 Q. Thank you for your answer. Just going back to my original

25 question about the quote in this report saying the death is believed to

Page 804

1 have occurred during military attack.

2 Do you remember whose explanation, whose comment, whose

3 information that was?

4 A. This was something that was not discussed in my presence, but I

5 do remember this Nigerian officer but they didn't discuss it in my

6 presence.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness?

8 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if I may just a last question in

9 clarification in regard to the apartment complex of the boyfriend.

10 Q. Apart from the boyfriend, who else was living in that complex as

11 far as you remember?

12 A. It was a large complex with many buildings. I didn't know anyone

13 from those buildings because I didn't live in that part of the area, and

14 I am not from Knin. So this was a housing settlement, and I don't know

15 the people there.

16 Q. Were any women and children living in there?

17 A. Of course.

18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

20 MR. WAESPI: There is one small matter in relation to Exhibit

21 marked for identification 10 from Mr. Kay's examination. That's the

22 exhibit we only had a hard copy. Apparently, there is a copy in e-court

23 which is 65 ter number 00866, which is identical to 02736. So that's a

24 duplicate. This is marked for identification D10.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now what is uploaded in e-court is unknown to

Page 805

1 this Court, because only if it is presented then we have no access to all

2 your lists of uploaded systems.

3 Also, I was informed by Madam Registrar just before we came to

4 this courtroom that there was something about this numbering, especially

5 in relation to D10. I don't know whether this is the issue.

6 Madam Registrar could you please inform us about what you found

7 and what you told me earlier.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Certainly, Your Honour. What Mr. Waespi has

9 mentioned is the situation in e-court so D10 marked for identification is

10 65 ter 866.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Does that resolve your problem?

12 Then is there any further need before I invite my colleagues to

13 put further questions? Is there any need for further cross-examination?

14 Mr. Kehoe?

15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, just briefly on this Cetina issue

16 in --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

18 MR. WAESPI: I'm not sure what the practice is in this

19 Trial Chamber. In the Dragomir Milosevic case there was no re-cross

20 after redirect, but --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course the re-cross is meant to deal with

22 matters which were developed in redirect. Therefore, it's not just a new

23 round of questioning and the second cross-examination should focus on the

24 questions you have just put to the witness and not challenge the answers

25 that were given in the examination-in-chief. So that -- these are the

Page 806

1 limits, Mr. Kehoe.

2 But from what Mr. Kehoe said, I noticed that it was specifically

3 one of the issues you further developed in re-examination that he would

4 like to address. Is that --

5 MR. KEHOE: It's just one.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we'll slowly learn with each other what

7 our -- what our practice will be. It depends on how you're dealing with

8 matters and then the Chamber will see whether it's an efficient and

9 useful way of using our time in this courtroom.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

11 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

12 Q. Madam Witness, do you know if the army of the Republic of Serb

13 Krajina had artillery positions in Cetina?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

17 Any of the other counsel? I don't see.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you, Witness. I'd first

21 like to take you to your 1996 statement for the parties, page 5, where

22 you are referring to two sisters from Uzdolje who came on Sunday, the

23 6th, to the UN compound.

24 At the end of what your statement gives in this respect you say

25 that a soldier took one person, drove her back to the place on the

Page 807

1 Knin-Drnis road near Uzdolje where they had been picked up, and then it

2 reads: "On the arrival, she saw that the four old women had been killed.

3 The elderly man was still alive, as he raised his head."

4 Did you receive any information on how these four elderly women

5 had been killed?

6 A. I interpreted their statement at the UN base upon their arrival,

7 and the details that I remembered are what they conveyed to the UN

8 civilian police members. They were too afraid to give their names. I

9 don't recall them saying how the women had been killed. I remember that

10 they said that the man had already -- had still been alive but she had

11 not been allowed to approach him.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So you have no further details as to how the killing

13 took place. Thank you.

14 Then --

15 A. No, I don't.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to take you to your statement you

17 gave in 2007. For the parties, paragraph 15.

18 A. I don't see the statements. I don't see them on the screen,

19 either of them.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'll inform you exactly on what I'll put questions

21 about.

22 You stated, and I read this full paragraph of three lines:

23 "During the month of August, I would see many soldiers from various units

24 in the area, and I formed the impression that the military was still in

25 control because there were so many of them still around."

Page 808

1 Could you give us further details which would allow us better to

2 understand whether these were soldiers on duty or not? If I see a

3 soldier in the supermarket, that's different from when I see a soldier in

4 a military jeep. Could you give us further details which could give us a

5 clue as to what -- whether they were on duty when you saw them?

6 A. Yes. In the villages that I patrolled, there would be

7 check-points set up. I remember the check-point in the village of

8 Otisic. We were stopped and they asked us to explain what we were doing

9 there and why patrols were sent to this village, who we were looking for.

10 So I would see a lot of soldiers in the villages. Primarily I saw them

11 looting the houses.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course we couldn't say that when looting

13 the houses they could have been -- well, they could have been on duty but

14 not observe what they had to do. Could you tell us if you say -- first

15 of all, I'd like to -- you gave one example of a check-point. Was this

16 common in the villages, and could you give us an impression of, in total,

17 how many of these check-points manned by soldiers you saw?

18 A. Yes. I remember the check-point leading towards the village of

19 Strmica. We were not allowed to pass. I remember the check-point at the

20 village of Plavno where we were also not allowed to pass. I think

21 that -- I think that this gives you a picture of the fact that the

22 Croatian army was still there on the ground in all the villages. I'd see

23 them all over the place. And I have to admit that meeting Croatian

24 soldiers was a much more harrowing experience for me than meeting

25 Croatian police officers.

Page 809

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you also try to answer the other

2 question I put to you, is that how many of those check-points in total

3 you may have seen? Are you talking about five villages in which you saw

4 such check-points, including hamlets, or 20 or a hundred? Could you give

5 us an impression?

6 A. Well, I can't now recall exactly, but whenever I went I remember

7 that I went to the relay station in the direction of Drnis, and there

8 were a hundred of them. I know that because they threatened me, and I

9 barely got out of that situation. I remember in the village of

10 Zelenbabe, I remember there was a lot of troops there too. In fact, I

11 don't recall ever having entered a village and not seeing the troops

12 there.

13 I remember the first day when I went to my colleague's apartment

14 to pick up her stuff. That's an area in the town centre. There was a

15 sign saying no access and I saw Croatian troops there. I remember seeing

16 a lot of them in my relative's village when I went there looking for my

17 grandmother in the village of Palanka.

18 So I saw them all over the place. I can't really tell you how

19 many.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And if you say "troops," are you referring to

21 individuals in uniforms or are you talking about groups apparently with

22 some kind of an organisation? What do you mean by troops?

23 A. I didn't see individual troop -- individual soldiers. They were

24 always in a larger group of soldiers.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

Page 810

1 Then I would like to take you to your 1996 statement, page 10 for

2 the parties, where you stated about a very old woman born in 1913 who

3 appeared with her hands up, and we are talking about your visit to the

4 Plavno hamlets, who said, "Don't kill me. Take whatever you want." And

5 then you were asked about a body you'd seen.

6 She told you that her husband had left for Belgrade a week before

7 the attack, that they had an apartment there, and she showed papers. You

8 found another three very old women.

9 What happened then further? You describe what you saw, what this

10 woman told you. Did you receive any further information there?

11 A. Yes. One of the women said that her son, Stevan Vidovic, had

12 gone missing a couple of days ago. That's what she complained. She

13 didn't know what had happened. But we told her that we would definitely

14 try to find out what had happened to her son. And perhaps some three

15 days after that we found the body of Stevan Vidovic. I was with a

16 security officer and another man, I think he was Canadian, in a car. The

17 window was open, and we could smell the bodies, the decomposing bodies,

18 and we found Stevan Vidovic's body. It was in a very advanced stage of

19 decomposition.

20 That was in the village of Plavno.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did you see anything that would, although

22 you not being a professional, give you any impression on how

23 Stevan Vidovic would have died?

24 A. I don't know. He was on his back on the ground. He was wearing

25 civilian clothes and his face was completely maggot-ridden, so I didn't

Page 811

1 really look to see how he had been killed.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. I have no further

3 questions.

4 If any of the parties have any questions which were caused by the

5 matters I raised in my questions, then you have an opportunity to ask

6 questions.

7 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Your Honour.

8 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

9 Q. Madam Witness, Judge Orie read from your 2007 statement,

10 paragraph 15 concerning the military still in control of the area and you

11 noted the check-points that had soldiers. Do you know if these

12 check-points were manned by members of the military police?

13 A. Those were soldiers, and I really don't know whether they --

14 whether the members of the military police have any different kind of

15 uniforms, but the only thing that I saw them as was as soldiers at that

16 time.

17 Q. So, Madam Witness, you cannot tell us whether or not the

18 individuals at that check-point were regular soldiers or members of the

19 military police; is that right?

20 A. Well, I would say that they were soldiers, because I find it -- I

21 would find it quite incredible that there were so many military police

22 officers.

23 Q. Well, in paragraph 10 of your statement of the -- this is P3,

24 this is the 2007 statement, you note in the last sentence: "As far as I

25 remember, it was military people who were manning the check-points,

Page 812

1 although I could not be sure if the uniform, which was mainly camouflage,

2 was military -- was military police."

3 A. I keep saying all the time that I did not pay that much attention

4 to uniforms. I know that when I would come across a Croatian police

5 officer, and despite the fact that I was involved in several incidents

6 with them, that I felt much more comfortable than when I would encounter

7 a Croatian soldier.

8 Q. I understand, but once again, and this is my last question, when

9 you saw them you couldn't tell if they were soldiers or members of the

10 military police, could you?

11 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

13 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness answered two or three times

14 already.

15 MR. KEHOE: It's my last question, Judge.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Kehoe, if the last question is put for the

17 third time to a witness then it's still -- whether it's the last or the

18 semi-last or the first -- no, first couldn't be but the third or the

19 fourth, that doesn't make any difference.

20 Let's try to understand what the witness wants to tell us.

21 Do I understand, Witness 136, that on the basis of the uniforms

22 you have seen that you say, "I could not tell you whether the uniforms I

23 usually saw as the military uniforms, whether military police may have

24 been dressed in such uniforms as well"? Is that a correct understanding

25 of your testimony?

Page 813

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The only way how I could

2 distinguish the military from the police is that I knew that the police

3 had blue uniforms and the army had plain green or camouflage uniforms.

4 And if this is what I said in my statement, that it was camouflage or

5 some other kind of uniform, after so many years I can no longer have this

6 picture in my mind's eye who stopped me at what check-point. What is

7 written in the statement is accurate because it's based on my notes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it's also your testimony, if I

9 well-understood you, that you would be surprised if the uniforms you

10 described or you perceived as being military uniforms would be of the

11 military police because then the number of policemen would be extremely

12 high, if I well-understood you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you understand me well.

14 Because as far as I know based on the structure in the UN, I know that

15 the number of military police cannot compare to the number of soldiers,

16 troops.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, any need to put a question which has not

18 yet been answered by the witness?

19 MR. KEHOE: Just one point of clarification.



22 Q. And the blue uniforms were the civilian police?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. KEHOE: That's all, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You asked in the beginning and I promised you,

Page 814

1 Witness 136, that I would give you an opportunity to give details on a

2 matter I'm not aware of but where you thought it would be good for us to

3 know these details. You have an opportunity to do so. And if you would

4 please start telling us what it is about that you want to give us further

5 details so that we can find in your statements what you will give further

6 details on.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, about the body of the

8 woman found in the village of Ivanici or Sovilji. Nobody asked me about

9 that yesterday, and in my statement the description is a little bit more

10 detailed than the one in the UN report.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say we find further details on that in

12 your statement compared to the UN report which gives less details. Thank

13 you for drawing our attention to that.

14 Shall we find that on paper already?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Regarding the injuries that

16 led to this woman's death.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, if you could help me, because I am

18 trying to fully understand.

19 If you give us one second to find it.

20 Anyone who could help me is invited to do so.

21 MR. WAESPI: The first reference I found is in paragraph 24 of

22 the second statement, 2007 statement, which is P3.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that refers usually to the earlier

24 statement as well.

25 Do we find anything about it in the first statement, Mr. --

Page 815

1 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps because Ivanici is near Gracac it might

2 refer to page 9 of P2, when the witness visited on the 19th of August

3 with Alun Roberts and other personnel, areas near Gracac where she found

4 the woman who is 70 years old. In the other exhibit she was described as

5 60 years old. That's as close as I can get to this Ivanici incident.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me -- Witness, we find one reference to an

7 event in Ivanici just where you say the report made is accurate, and

8 Mr. Waespi now suggests that that is about what you had seen on the 19th

9 of August in Sovilji. Is that the same event, same incident?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I can clarify and

11 tell you what I meant. Yesterday, we mentioned an old lady, 60 or 70

12 years old. That's irrelevant. She was an old woman lying face down next

13 to the creek, and a paper was going around this courtroom, nobody asked

14 me anything, where it is specified that she had a leg injury. And I

15 thought this was some kind of disrespect. People were saying how could

16 she have died of her leg injury. But I also wanted to point out to you

17 that she also had a gunshot wound to the back of her head.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And that is -- you're now talking -- talking about a

19 lady where you said about a woman, an old woman about 70 years, a corpse

20 in a state of decomposition, killed by a bullet in the back of her head

21 which you found close to a stream. Is that what you're talking about?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You say it's --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I'm talking about.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So you say that if there's any other report which

Page 816

1 says that she has injuries to her leg that you'd like to emphasise that,

2 whether true or not, but that you found this person, and if it's the same

3 person, with a shot injury in her head.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The report that was shown here

5 yesterday made mention of only the leg injury. It is also a fact that

6 she also had a wound to her head and also the leg wound. But I suppose

7 that the head injury was fatal.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, I don't remember exactly whether it was

9 one of the P exhibits. I take it if it was shown. Could you --

10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. I think that was the one which

11 had the village of Ivanici redacted so that was -- or made illegible.

12 Yes. It's ter number 7092.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you have the P number that would certainly help

14 had us because we don't have access to your numbers. It's P10 from what

15 Madam Registrar tells us.

16 I have problems there.

17 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. It's P10, an exhibit which can

18 be shown openly.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I see from that report that's also about

20 an old lady. It reads: "60 years of age, dead body decomposed beside a

21 small stream in that village." And that is the village just mentioned.

22 So at first sight, it seems that this is the same incident although that

23 might need clarification and the witness draws our attention to the fact

24 that what she observed was not just leg injuries but wounds in the head.

25 Now, you also told us that the body was decomposed. Was it

Page 817

1 not -- was the decomposition not at such a level that you could not see

2 anymore what were wounds?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was not so badly

4 decomposed. Well, there was this stench, but I wouldn't say that she was

5 so badly decomposed, but I think that there were quite a few witnesses.

6 So I would like you to do something to check that. She did have the

7 hand -- the head injury in addition to the leg injury. And I hope, I

8 think that the body was also photographed.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Any other matter that you would like to bring to our

10 attention?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Another document that was

12 shown by Mr. Kehoe yesterday about the way in which the UN interpreters

13 were employed. I think that's Article 18. I have to say that I was

14 quite friendly and quite close with some of my colleagues, with many of

15 my colleagues, and I never heard about anyone being employed by the Serb

16 authorities. And the next article, which was not read out here,

17 specifies that we would - the local staff would get our salaries in the

18 local currency. That's not true either. We were not paid in local

19 currency. We were all paid in US dollars.

20 This is what makes me believe that this document is not credible.

21 I hope that you will take steps to investigate the origin of this

22 document further.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think it is not up to you to give us advice

24 on these matters and whether the conclusion should be that the document

25 is not credible or that the rules were not observed or that, for one

Page 818

1 reason or another, this document would not apply or whether it was not

2 replaced by another document for later stages that's still to be seen,

3 but at least you draw our attention to the fact that you never heard that

4 any of your colleagues was employed through this agency, if I understand

5 you well, and that you were paid in US dollars and not in local currency.

6 That is factual information.

7 Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock because I thought whether we

8 could finish with the witness before the second break which would have to

9 have started already ten minutes ago at least. How much time would you

10 need?

11 MR. KEHOE: Just briefly, Judge, I have a couple of questions

12 concerning --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If there are further questions to be put to the

15 question in relation to that which of course the witness brings new

16 elements to our attention, then we should do it after the break.

17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 136, where I had some hope that we could

19 finish before the break it will be just after the break. We will have a

20 break and we'll resume at ten minutes past 2.00, and Mr. Kehoe, how much

21 time would you need.

22 MR. KEHOE: 10 minutes, or less.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Any of the other counsel?

24 MR. MISETIC: Ten minutes past 1.00, I assume you mean,

25 Your Honour.

Page 819

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We can't resume at a time that has elapsed

2 already. Thank you for correcting me. We resume at ten minutes past

3 1.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

7 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour. Madam Registrar, if we could

8 put P10 back up on the screen. I apologise, Judge. P10 I believe is --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem with P10?

10 MR. KEHOE: I'm fine. It's fine.

11 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

12 Q. Now, ma'am, I put P10 back up on the screen, and this is the

13 document that you take issue with; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, ma'am, if you recall, you do recall as in P3 that you were

16 interviewed less than a year ago by the Office of the Prosecutor. Were

17 you not?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. And during the course of that interview they showed you a series

20 of UN reports, didn't they?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And you had the opportunity to review those reports, didn't you?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And this was one of the reports that was given to you to read,

25 wasn't it?

Page 820

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And if I can direct your attention to your statement of the 11th

3 June 2007, P3 statement, paragraph 24, you note in relation to the

4 UNCIVPOL report with the number - and the ERN number matches, Judge -

5 relating to the finding a body in the village of Ivanici. "I can confirm

6 that this report accurately reflects what I was told and what I witnessed

7 when I was working with that particular CIVPOL team."

8 Did you say that at that time in June of 2007?

9 A. It is true that I said that, but obviously I missed to notice

10 this detail which I did state in my statement from 2006 [as interpreted].

11 Q. And you had the opportunity -- the Office of the Prosecutor gave

12 you the opportunity to review this report and make any elaborations or

13 additions as you saw fit, didn't they?

14 A. That is true. But on that day I was shown a large number of

15 documents, and it is quite possible that something like this relating to

16 the wounds evaded me. But I assure you that she had a wound to her head,

17 and my memory was still fresh when I said that.

18 Q. There is nothing in this UN report about a wound to the head, is

19 there?

20 A. That is true, but I'd like you to look for other UN staff members

21 and to see their reports.

22 Q. And there is nothing in your statement in June of 2007 about any

23 wounds to the head, is there?

24 A. There is in the statement from 1996, when my memory was much

25 better.

Page 821

1 Q. Well, ma'am, the fact of the matter is that none of that

2 information is in your statement in 1996 either, is it?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

4 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness gave the explanation.

5 MR. KEHOE: I mean, if Mr. Waespi can find it for us in this 1996

6 statement about these gunshot wounds to the head for this woman, I will

7 gladly review that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, again I think there's the issue of

9 whether it is the same event or -- yes? Could you guide us back to the

10 page again?

11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, it's page 9, second paragraph.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Second paragraph. I remember.

13 MR. WAESPI: And it clearly says, quote from the fourth line in

14 that second paragraph: "The woman was killed by a bullet in the back of

15 her head." That's -- I think one of the connecting features is the creek

16 and the stream, the creek appearing in Exhibit P10 and the stream in

17 Exhibit P2. The witness gave her explanation, and it's up to

18 Your Honours to assess that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Date and place, whether it's the same or not.

20 MR. KEHOE: If you can look at it, Judge, and I will cite to you,

21 Judge, it doesn't say anything about this particular village.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But I think we dealt with that before the break.

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That we'll have to define whether this episode in

25 her statement where the witness says it is -- "That's what I was

Page 822

1 referring to when I gave my additional comments," that she linked her

2 statement in this respect to the report that was shown to her.

3 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Whether that is reliable or not is a matter for us

5 further to consider, whether it is the same. But to put to the witness

6 where she says that it's the same incident, that nothing says if it is

7 the same incident, the statement says something about it.

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If it's not the same incident, then of course the

10 statement doesn't say anything about it. That's the issue which the

11 witness at this moment, I think, cannot clarify any further than what she

12 thinks she is talking about on page 9, second paragraph, and what she

13 thinks the UN document is about, because she considers it to be the same.

14 Otherwise, she wouldn't have taken us to where she said in 1996 so-and-so

15 and so. I think that's the issue which I can't see how the witness can

16 resolve that matter at this moment.

17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes? You would agree?

19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, suffice to it to say, Judge --

20 Q. Witness -- Madam Witness, when you were given this opportunity in

21 2007 -- last question. When you were given this in 2007, you said that

22 P10, this report, was accurate, didn't you?

23 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that question has been put three times now to

25 the witness in different forms. It has been clearly -- I mean --

Page 823

1 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge and I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Also the witness, Mr. Kehoe, to ask a witness

3 whether a report states that a car is green, that's a matter of reading.

4 If a witness would say no, the report says that a car is black, and if we

5 read that it's green, then it doesn't add anything. I mean, what is or

6 what is not in a document is something everyone who can read can

7 establish, and there's no need for the witness to -- I mean, whatever

8 answer she gives, I'll rely upon what I read.

9 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.


11 MR. KEHOE: And I just wanted to bring to your attention the fact

12 that this particular report had in fact been shown to the witness in 2007

13 and she maintained it was accurate.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. No problem.

15 MR. KEHOE: Okay. I have nothing further, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.

17 Then, Witness 136, this concludes your testimony in this court.

18 I'd like to thank you for coming a long way to The Hague and to answer

19 questions of both parties and the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home

20 again.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Under normal circumstances I would ask the usher to

23 escort you out of the courtroom. There's one problem, of course. We

24 have face distortion. So since there's one procedural matter I'd like to

25 deal with for a second, that is the decision on an application for

Page 824

1 provisional release, if the parties would say it's not a problem that the

2 witness -- it's a public decision anyhow, would stay here, although it

3 doesn't have to do anything with her, but otherwise we have to pull the

4 curtains down and to --

5 So then we'd like you to stay for a while so that when you leave

6 the courtroom that no one can see you.

7 What we're now dealing with has got nothing to do with you. You

8 are excused, and you are not needed in this courtroom at this moment.

9 Then I would like to inform the -- especially you, Mr. Kay and

10 you, Mr. Cermak, that the Chamber has reached a decision on the

11 application for provisional release.

12 The request is denied. A written decision will be filed this

13 afternoon, but I thought you might want to know, and therefore I thought

14 it the best to inform you right away.

15 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour, and it makes a difference to

16 our arrangements in the three weeks. I need to raise a matter in

17 relation to the three-week break.


19 MR. KAY: At an early stage of this week, the issue of the

20 disclosure by the Prosecution of the exhibits to be produced through a

21 particular witness was raised. We have now had a week on this trial and

22 we have had experience of dealing with the Rule 65 ter exhibit list as

23 filed by the Prosecutor, as well as starting research on the exhibits

24 connected with witnesses on their witness list which they have served for

25 the first six weeks of trial.

Page 825

1 We're about to go into a court recess for three weeks. The first

2 witness to be heard next week if the list is maintained in the order that

3 was supplied is a short witness of little consequence, but the witness

4 after that is a substantial witness. His witness statement has within it

5 some 80 attachments. Voluminous documents.

6 It may well be that he's also referred to other documents within

7 the Prosecution 65 ter list. So we could be exceeding this number.

8 In my submission, it is absolutely imperative that we get 14

9 days' notice of exhibits to be tendered through witnesses before they're

10 called so that we can achieve several things. The first thing is any

11 documents that arise through our research can then be put into the court

12 system through the e-court, and we're then prepared for cross-examination

13 and the Court isn't inconvenienced while we try at late stage to find

14 documents that have to be put into the system to deal with

15 cross-examination of the witness and have only a short period of time in

16 which to do it.

17 The second matter is this: Your Honour, in my view, was rightly

18 concerned with notice given by the Defence of objections to Prosecution

19 evidence. A practice that I'm familiar with that I would see my opponent

20 at the start of a trial, even if a witness was coming up in ten weeks'

21 time or six months' time, give a schedule of objections and say, "Let me

22 know what you think about that," and comment in what's in, and what's

23 out, what we can agree to.

24 Yesterday I served a very brief schedule on Mr. Tieger dealing

25 with the first short witness for our next period in court. I couldn't do

Page 826

1 that with the witness thereafter at all because I don't know what he's

2 going to produce. Research has to be done as to which of his attachments

3 are within the Rule 65 ter schedule. Your Honour will obviously take

4 notice of the fact that such a schedule is not prepared on a sectioned

5 basis. It is completely random within that schedule as to where a

6 document appears, and so it's very difficult to identify. Nearly 5.000

7 documents have to be -- go through and linked by ERN to try and find

8 which documents are linked to a particular witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understand.

10 MR. KAY: To achieve good management for Your Honour, and we're

11 concerned to do that, and we have no objection in sending a schedule.

12 If as I understand it and has been reported to me, that the

13 Prosecutor thinks two days before a witness is called is sufficient

14 notice of exhibits to be produced, we will be unable to fulfil

15 Your Honour's intention and neither will we really be adequately prepared

16 in relation to our own documents for cross-examination.

17 These witnesses are scheduled for an hour or two hours because

18 they're 65 ter, so we're likely to be on the same day the witness is

19 called, either the first party for the Defence, second or third, on our

20 feet cross-examining.


22 I take it that you want to refer to 92 ter rather than 65 ter

23 where you said these are 65 ter witnesses, but --

24 MR. KAY: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Two days or 14 days, that's a difference of 12.

Page 827

1 Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: A number of different issues arise, Your Honour.

3 Let me take them not necessarily in sequence but let me respond to them.

4 First of all, the issue of 48 hours came up in the context of the

5 discussions about identifying and agreeing upon some appropriate time.

6 48 hours is not a figure that came --

7 JUDGE ORIE: It was -- it was a first bid is that what you want

8 to tell us?

9 MR. TIEGER: No, it was in fact --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Or the last bid.

11 MR. TIEGER: It was in fact based on my review the period imposed

12 in at least three other cases that have been or are currently being

13 conducted in front of this institution. I did -- and I indicated that,

14 that that is a practice that apparently has worked in other cases. I did

15 not propose it as the Prosecution's position in respect of this

16 particular case because we were in the midst of discussions.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, of course, the Chamber would

18 prefer if the parties could agree on the matter.

19 Let me add one -- one observation. If we are talking about 92

20 ter witnesses, then of course as we have also already experienced here

21 that the famous proofing system gives surprises now and then, one could

22 consider that what is already obvious on the basis of the 92 ter

23 statement as it is there, that the Prosecution produces already a list

24 which would then cover, well, let's say if not a full hundred per cent

25 then at least 95 per cent of the exhibits that it intends to use with

Page 828

1 that witness, and that could be done well in advance, and then might need

2 some kind of high pressure valve for information that comes up at last

3 moment. And we would then for the last three or five per cent which then

4 comes as a surprise, we would then consider what problems it causes the

5 Defence to deal with those exhibits and how to prepare for

6 cross-examination. And then of course it also depends if that's just one

7 or two documents that would add a bit of similar information as we have

8 already in many of the other documents that would of course be quite

9 different from a situation where the last three documents out of 80 or a

10 hundred would reverse the whole of the information, which of course would

11 require perhaps a further postponement of the examination of that

12 witness.

13 Therefore, I'm looking at it in a rather practical way and talk

14 about two days, but this is my first impression, would not be reasonable

15 if we have already a 92 ter statement which refers to 80 exhibits,

16 because I would expect that then from these 80 that you would use 60 or

17 50, and perhaps you have already a couple more in your mind which you'd

18 also like to use. Then that could be prepared. Then the Defence could

19 start preparing cross-examination on the basis of that information, and

20 then of course no one can exclude that finally at five minutes to 12.00

21 there might be two, three, or four other documents you would have on your

22 mind.

23 So the parties perhaps with this in the back of their mind could

24 further discuss the matter among themselves and see whether any solution

25 can be reached. And again here also focus on -- on what is available two

Page 829

1 weeks in advance and what is not available and what might come as a

2 surprise so to say that everything that is in the 92 ter statement we

3 deal with that at least two weeks in advance, and that if there are

4 surprises, we'll immediately notify you and then we might have a

5 discussion on what the impact of one, two, or three, or perhaps five

6 exhibits would be if late notice was given.

7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if I may.


9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: For this particular witness, we did receive a

10 schedule in advance, which is very helpful. We sat down, at least

11 Mr. Kehoe and I sat down with Mr. Waespi to look over the documents to

12 see what objections we had to them. We were able to agree on most of

13 them, and of course you've heard there were some objections on some of

14 the documents, and that was only -- we were only able to do that because

15 we received this information well enough in advance and it happened to be

16 the first witness. So I know there's a learning curve here. But I know

17 all the Defence together have -- are pretty resolute on the fact that two

18 weeks at a minimum is, given the volume of documentation that's involved,

19 is necessary for us to be able to go through the process of being able to

20 look at the documents, meet together as a group of defendants to go over

21 the documents and then again meet with the OTP to decide what can we

22 agree on and what do we object to.

23 So I know speaking for our team and speaking with the other

24 counsel, two weeks really is something that at least as far as the

25 Defence is concerned we agree on, and I know -- I don't want to get into

Page 830

1 a bidding war here, going back and forth about what's -- they go up two

2 or we go down to five or whatever the case may be, but I think two weeks,

3 really, is something that we're pretty resolute about, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Unless I receive a clear message at this moment that

5 the Chamber has to give a ruling on it, the Chamber urges the parties to

6 continue their conversations on the matter and see whether they can, if

7 not forever, and even if not for all of the circumstances but at least in

8 a practical approach resolve their matters.

9 I do understand, by the way, that receiving such a list is not

10 only relevant for objections against the document as such but also to be

11 aware of what the content is that you would have to prepare for

12 cross-examination even if you would not object to the document as such.

13 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: I understand, Your Honour. Just one more and

15 relatively small matter in respect to the matters raised by Mr. Kay.

16 We'll be happy to liaise with him in connection with any mechanical or

17 logistical issues he's having.

18 I should -- I want to mention that my understanding is that the

19 documentation attached to the 92 ter is not as voluminous as he

20 indicated. I think it's closer to half that amount, less than 50

21 documents, but in any event, we will liaise with him. We do have a

22 recess so it provides a better opportunity to ensure to the extent

23 possible that we can overcome any problems that --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, this Chamber is really confident that

25 both parties are able to count further than ten so if it's over ten that

Page 831

1 they would agree on what the number of documents would be.

2 Any other matter?

3 I would like to thank you also for your patience, Witness 136.

4 We adjourn until Monday, the 7th of April. And, Madam Registrar,

5 this courtroom would be this same courtroom? The parties have to look at

6 the court calendar to see whether we'll resume in this courtroom or

7 another courtroom, but it will be -- I also have to check whether it will

8 be morning or afternoon, but at least on the 7th of April.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.

11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day

12 of April, 2008.