Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 936

1 Tuesday, 8 April 2008.

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would

7 you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS P-006 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, I would like to remind you that you're

14 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

15 your testimony.

16 Mr. Misetic, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

20 Q. Witness 6, in your statement, you indicated that you did not

21 believe -- I'm sorry, you said, "I did not expect there would be an

22 attack on Knin." That is at paragraph 11 of your statement. However,

23 you also indicated that you had moved your family to Belgrade on the

24 30th of July, and that would include your wife and your children.

25 Without mentioning any names --

Page 937

1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it would be helpful if the witness

2 could be given a copy of his statement in order that he can see the

3 context in which these comments are made.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a copy for the witness?

5 MR. MISETIC: He had the B/C/S copy yesterday.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday, yes, and I think it was provided by you,

7 Mr. Margetts.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have another spare copy then.

10 Meanwhile, I believe we can continue because you are more or less quoting

11 from his statement.

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Without mentioning names, how many other family members left on

14 or about the 30th of July?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, wouldn't it be wise to specify whether

16 how many people left from the city of Knin, from the whole of the area.

17 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Also try to establish what the basis of knowledge of

19 this witness is, if it goes beyond his own street.

20 MR. MISETIC: Okay.



23 Q. Let me ask you this question: Did any people leave with your

24 family that you know of?

25 A. [No verbal response]

Page 938

1 Q. You have to answer yes or no.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please speak, because if you nod,

3 this is not audible on the transcript.

4 Mr. Misetic, do I understand your question well that you were

5 asking the witness how many families left with his family before the --

6 MR. MISETIC: That's correct.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- the shelling started?

8 MR. MISETIC: Before the 4th of August.


10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hadn't even started answering.

11 I'm just indicating that I understand your question.

12 Prior to the 4th of August, what I can tell you is that some of

13 the population, a rather small part of the population, in fact, several

14 per cent perhaps, had left Knin. That was the Sunday before the Monday

15 that the Operation Storm began. The bus had arrived from Belgrade, and I

16 know that the mood in the town was rather sullen. In the north of the

17 municipality, there is a place called Strmica near Knin, which had been

18 shelled already. Most of the people who were there had left Strmica by

19 this time and had arrived in Knin. Since my wife hails from the area,

20 members of her family, too, who lived in that area came over, and they

21 were now in my flat.

22 That morning, that Sunday morning, four or five days before

23 Operation Storm, I found out about the bus, and members of my wife's

24 family were adamant that they would leave for Belgrade to stay with their

25 relatives there. They then tried to talk me into allowing my wife, with

Page 939

1 our two children, to leave as well. I didn't feel that was absolutely

2 necessary. I didn't think that worse would come to worse.

3 Unfortunately, I was proven wrong and they were proven right.

4 They got onto a bus. Tickets had been sold for about between 150

5 and 200 people, and 100 got on eventually. I was there to see that bus

6 off along with a number of other people. That was the last bus, and it

7 is easy to realise that a single bus would not do in terms of evacuating

8 the entire population. Therefore, there were some private vehicles that

9 were being used as well, several per cent. I can only assume, but I

10 think between 5 and 10 per cent of the overall population left Knin and

11 everybody else remain.

12 That would be as much as I know. I know the day the bus left

13 there was a rally outside the railway station, and the patriarch Pavle

14 was there, too. He gave a speech; and as he was given this speech in the

15 evening hours, the bus was leaving Knin.

16 Now you're asking me about my expectations, why did I not see

17 Operation Storm coming.


19 Q. No, I didn't ask that. In your statement, you stated that, "They

20 would remain in Belgrade until the danger passed." I'm sorry, let me

21 read you the whole sentence. "It was intended that they would remain in

22 Belgrade until the danger passed." What danger were you talking about?

23 A. I never thought that the danger would be that tragic. I did feel

24 that there would be some sort of operations, but I thought there would be

25 a peaceful resolution to that soon because I never thought that the

Page 940

1 entire population of Knin would be made to leave. I was lucky, though,

2 because my family did not have to go through the same things that I

3 eventually had to go through.

4 I say "danger" because danger was in the air. Intuitively, I

5 realised that the danger would not be that tragic, maybe because I'd

6 never been involved in a war before. I had no idea what shelling meant.

7 This was the first time I ever experienced anything like that. Those who

8 had prior experience of things such as those were maybe still in time to

9 send their families away. In my case, it was quite accidental. I do

10 have to say that.

11 Q. Were you aware, sir, that Mr. Martic had declared a state of war

12 on the 28th of July?

13 A. No. I'm not aware of that. I wasn't even aware of the decision

14 that he apparently took for all those who weren't involved in the

15 fighting to leave Knin, because by the time the decision was taken, I had

16 already made up my mind. I suppose the decision was taken on the

17 afternoon of the 4th, by which time I was in a village near Knin on the

18 road to Srb. A column of vehicles was moving along that road, and that

19 column involved almost everybody leaving the Serbia Krajina.

20 Q. We'll get back to this topic in a moment, sir, but I also want to

21 talk to you about the video that was shown yesterday in court. You

22 indicated that the video had been given to you sometime around a year

23 after you had arrived in Belgrade; is that correct?

24 A. As far as I remember, it could be or could have been a year later

25 that I was given the footage. This officer who handed that over to me

Page 941

1 told me that he had taken some footage, that he had a recording of that.

2 At first, I wasn't even interested, and then he gave me the footage. I

3 realised when I watched it the same things that you can see for

4 yourselves yesterday as were watching it.

5 Secondly, as I said, the footage had been shown previously on a

6 variety of TV shows, especially on RTS, because it was meant to be used

7 for the purposes of some documentary or something, a documentary film

8 festival or whatever they were organising.

9 Q. And just to clarify, you arrived in Belgrade in 1995?

10 A. Yes, that's right, August; the 5th of August, 1995.

11 Q. So you would have received this video sometime in 1996, maybe

12 1997?

13 A. I think late 1996 or 1997. I assumed the footage indicates the

14 year that it was made. That's my assumption. The year must be

15 indicated. It was made during Operation Storm. I'm not sure when they

16 edited the footage and then pieced it together, but I think there's an

17 indication of the year it was made somewhere rather on that video.

18 Q. I'm not asking for when the year the video was made. I'm asking,

19 just so we're clear, the year you received a copy of the video.

20 A. As far as I can tell, about a year after Operation Storm.

21 Q. Thank you. You then indicated that, in anticipation of your

22 witness statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you had a copy of the

23 video made onto a DVD by the Veritas organisation; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. I gave it to them to do; and as I observed, they placed

25 their own name there, "Veritas." But, actually, the only thing that they

Page 942

1 provided at the time was technical assistance. They made a copy of the

2 tape, that's all.

3 Q. Between the time you received the video, approximately a year

4 after you arrived in Belgrade, until your appearance in court yesterday,

5 do you know of any changes to the audio or video that was shown in court?

6 A. As far as I know, no changes were made. You can find the same

7 footage elsewhere as well. This is just one copy of it. I suppose there

8 must be dozens or hundreds of it floating around. This is just one of

9 those copies, and the only distinction is this one actually displays the

10 name of the organisation, Veritas, simply because they produced the copy.

11 Q. Are you aware, sir -- strike that.

12 In your discussions with the filmmaker, who I believe you

13 indicated yesterday was Colonel Nestorovic, did Colonel Nestorovic

14 indicate to you that there was unedited footage of the scenes we saw

15 yesterday?

16 A. When he gave me the footage, the footage was clearly based on the

17 recordings that he had done in Knin. He put this together and that was

18 what I got. He was preparing for some sort of a festival, and it had

19 been aired on RTS. The film had been made public some time ago -- some

20 time before. I simply happened to be there when The Hague investigator

21 was also present, and this gave me a chance to hand the material over to

22 them.

23 Q. Are you aware that the Office of the Prosecutor has the unedited

24 video that was originally shot on the 4th of August?

25 A. I'm not aware of that.

Page 943

1 Q. Are you aware that the audio from the original video has been

2 distorted in the video that you presented in court yesterday?

3 A. I'm not aware of that either.

4 Q. Let me show you a comparison of the original video that was

5 produced to the Defence by the Office of the Prosecutor versus the video

6 you presented in court. You will recall the scene of women and children

7 running across the street under an air raid siren, and I'll let you

8 compare the one video that was produced by the Prosecution to the Defence

9 and then the video you presented in court yesterday.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you have referred several times to the

11 audio as well. The audio is not in evidence, at least is not being

12 ignored by the Chamber.

13 MR. MISETIC: I'm not talking about the voiceover. I'm talking

14 about the actual sound what was happening in Knin, and I believe, Your

15 Honour, you did indicate that you were able to --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, indeed, the sound of the shelling.

17 MR. MISETIC: Correct. Correct.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Sir --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, before we continue, these two extracts,

22 are they uploaded in e-court, because would they need a number?

23 MR. MISETIC: The video you've seen is uploaded -- this extract

24 is uploaded in e-court.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Both, yes.

Page 944

1 MR. MISETIC: I have not loaded the entire raw footage.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I do understand that we saw part

3 of what we saw yesterday, and we saw a different version of the same

4 picture but different sound.

5 MR. MISETIC: Correct.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you'd like to have this in evidence, I take it?


8 JUDGE ORIE: Then it needs a number. Now, how did you -- are

9 these two separate items, or is it one item prepared?

10 MR. MISETIC: It's one video, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It's one video which contains a portion of what we

12 saw yesterday, and added to that the new version of that same portion.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. MISETIC: I wish to be clear so there's no misunderstanding.


16 MR. MISETIC: The video you just saw is in one video that we

17 prepared.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a compilation of the two. One we've seen

19 already and the together is one. Now, what is --

20 MR. MISETIC: Let me make sure we're on the same page here. But

21 they come from two separate videos.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Do you have a number for

23 Madam Registrar of what was just played, your 65 ter number or the D

24 numbers as you call them?

25 MR. MISETIC: It's our 65 ter number 13.

Page 945


2 MR. MISETIC: For us. We don't have is a -- we just need an

3 exhibit number.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is it clear what was played so you can assign an

5 exhibit number to it.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Not really right now but I'll work it out with

7 the case manager with the Defence team.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We will already assign a number for it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit D13, marked for

10 identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: D13, marked for identification, for the time being

12 and then the original number will be given to Madam Registrar.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness 6, do you know who added the siren to the video you

16 played yesterday? Are you --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, in your question, it is implied that

18 the siren was added and not the birds were added. Would you please be

19 clear on that? We have two versions, two different versions. Whether

20 the siren was there and has been removed and replaced by birds, or

21 whether there were birds replaced by a siren is not yet established, so

22 you should not imply this in your question which could lead to confusion.

23 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

24 Q. Do you know who would have been responsible for the sound in the

25 video you played yesterday?

Page 946

1 A. I don't think I can tell. I suppose the original tape that I

2 handed over for a copy to be made should be the copy that arrived here,

3 in addition to which I think the original tape must still be available.

4 I could have it sent to you personally, if that means anything, so that

5 you can cross-reference it to your tapes.

6 It was Veritas, was it not? I think not, because the only thing

7 they had to do was make a copy of that tape. I don't think they actually

8 had the equipment to introduce any new editing moves or to change the

9 original footing.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It appears that the witness has no knowledge on what

11 has been done, so let's stop speculating.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. MISETIC: And there's one additional clip, Your Honour, that

14 I'd like to show the witness. This is --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is that then also a separate footage consisting of

16 two --

17 MR. MISETIC: That's correct. In the break, we will add the

18 number.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, that would then be D14, I

20 take it.


22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar, and also marked for

23 identification for the time being.

24 [Videotape played]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you mind to play it once again, so I'm better

Page 947

1 able to see it - it's very short - and so to better understand where the

2 differences are.

3 MR. MISETIC: And at the end of the video, Madam Registrar, if

4 you could keep the picture up, because I'd like the witness to identify,

5 if he can, the location.


7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Sir, in this video, you see a gentleman walking --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


12 Q. Sir, in this video, you see a gentleman in a uniform walking in

13 the background. Can you identify that person?

14 A. I have to admit -- is there a person behind this car? Is it the

15 gentleman that we saw in that recording yesterday, Nestorovic? Again, I

16 really wasn't paying attention to that because I hadn't realised you'd be

17 asking me about it. But I do notice a person there behind, and this

18 person might be Colonel Nestorovic, the one behind the vehicle.

19 Q. Okay. That is the question. I wanted to know if you could

20 identify if that is Colonel Nestorovic in the background.

21 A. If perhaps we could make the image a bit clearer, then perhaps I

22 might be certain about that. As it is now, I'm merely speculating.

23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, we will play it back a few seconds for

24 him.

25 Q. And I have two questions on the scene, so if you could pay

Page 948

1 attention to the first question.

2 The first question, what I've just asked you, is if you can

3 identify the person in the video. The second question is if you can

4 identify the building in the background of this video, so that the Court

5 can be aware of where the hole is in this video that is shown at the

6 beginning of the clip.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That person might be the director,

9 the Director Nestorovic. But to tell you the truth, the location after

10 12 years I would find it hard to define where it is, because it was -- it

11 had sustained quite a lot of damage in relation to the way I knew it

12 before the shelling. So I couldn't really be specific about that.

13 Q. Were you familiar with how the headquarters of the army of the

14 Republika Srpska Krajina looked on the 3rd of August, 1995?

15 A. I know that.

16 Q. Can you recognise whether that is the back of the army of the RSK

17 headquarters?

18 A. What you've just shown me, whether this is the army hall in Knin,

19 the headquarters?

20 Q. I want to be clear here. Is this the parking lot behind the army

21 hall that you mentioned yesterday in your testimony?

22 A. It might be the parking lot based on what we saw yesterday where

23 the shells fell next to the army hall. It might be the location that

24 they recorded, and that might be reflected in this recording. That would

25 be next to the army hall in Knin.

Page 949

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I'd like to have full clarity here.

2 Witness 6, earlier you said, "I find it hard to define where it

3 is, because it had sustained quite a lot of damage in relation to the way

4 I knew it before the shelling."

5 When you said that, what location were you referring to at that

6 moment?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was referring to the

8 location that I saw on this video footage, because things don't look the

9 way I recall them.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us what --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us what, in your view, we saw only the video.

13 Which building did we see? I mean, name it if you can, because you say,

14 "It's different from how I knew it," which gives the impression that you

15 know what premises you're talking about. Tell us what you had in mind

16 when you said that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday -- well, on the basis of

18 what we saw yesterday, the images of shelling, we indicated on a

19 photograph that a building had been hit and that there was a fire burning

20 near the city centre.

21 I have to admit that now this image is not clear enough for me to

22 be able to define what building that is. I cannot recognise this place.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I want to stop you here. I'm not talking about

24 yesterday. I'm talking about today. You look at the footage you saw

25 today, that is the place where a lot of cars can be seen, and you said,

Page 950

1 "Well, things have changed; therefore, I have some difficulties in

2 locating it. It is not as I used to know it."

3 What location did you have in mind at that moment? Was it the

4 local grocery store? Was it a police station? Was it a hospital? What

5 did you have in mind? I'd like to have of a direct answer.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Defence counsel asked me

7 whether this was next to the army hall in Knin, and then I intuitively

8 thought that it might be next -- somewhere next to the army hall. But at

9 this moment, I cannot give you a decisive, certain answer as to whether

10 this was next to the army hall, because after 12 years, this has faded in

11 my mind. I didn't go to that area much after the war, so I cannot claim

12 that this was really the location that is being put to me by the Defence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, before you were asked if it was the army

14 hall, you gave the answer I just read out to you. That was before one

15 question has been put to you. You said, and I'll repeat it, "I would

16 find it hard to define where it was because it had sustained quite a lot

17 of damage in relation to the way I knew it before the shelling. So I

18 couldn't really be specific about that."

19 What were you referring to as "it"? What had sustained quite a

20 lot of damage? This was before any question about the army hall was put

21 to you. What did you refer to at that moment?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, on this footage, I saw that

23 there was damage to the shops, that there was a lot of broken glass on

24 the floor, we saw the broken branches --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, I'm not talking about the broken glass.

Page 951

1 I am talking about the location where you see the cars, that parking lot.

2 What did you have in mind if you said you had difficulties to locate it?

3 Was that in relation to the parking lot?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what I meant was that from

5 where I am now, I cannot define the exact location of this parking lot.

6 I admit that I cannot recall whether this is the location next to the

7 army hall. If I were in Knin, I would then be able to look at it, see

8 what it looks like, and be more specific about the location; but from

9 where I sit here, as much as I'm trying to recall this location, I cannot

10 now claim that I really know where this location was, where this parking

11 lot was.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What you saw, did it look like what you remember was

13 the parking lot of that location, that is, the army hall? Does it look

14 similar?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall -- or,

16 rather, I don't recall that there was the staircase there at the parking

17 lot next to the army hall. I assumed that there were several similar

18 locations in Knin. And on the basis of the footage you've just shown me,

19 I would not be able to determine whether this was, indeed, next to the

20 army hall, because right across the street from it --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, I didn't ask you to identify it. My last

22 question was whether it looked similar to. Does it or does it not?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to admit that this doesn't

24 look like the parking lot at the army hall building. It doesn't look

25 similar to that, no.

Page 952

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

2 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, based on at that question, I'd like to

3 ask the witness two follow-up questions. If you could look at the video,

4 and we've paused it, my foundational question, Your Honour, is this:

5 Q. Are you familiar with what police vehicles looked like in Knin

6 prior to the 4th of August, 1995?

7 A. Well, I think I am familiar with it. They might look like the

8 vehicles depicted here.

9 Q. Do you recall what colour licence plates police vehicles had in

10 Knin prior to the 4th of August, 1995?

11 A. I think I don't know that. I never actually looked at the

12 licence plates. I never paid any attention to that.

13 Q. If you could look at the next clip, please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would that need a separate number?

15 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be D15 --


19 THE REGISTRAR: -- marked for identification.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification. Could we start it?

21 Please proceed.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. That vehicle you see there on the right there, sir, does that

25 look like a police car, the type of police car you would have seen in

Page 953

1 Knin prior to the 4th of August, 1995?

2 A. Yes, yes. It does look like a police car. That's the kind of

3 cars that the police in Knin had.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness 6.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Misetic, did I see something different, or

6 did I see the same as I saw in the --

7 MR. MISETIC: It's the same video. We just stopped it, so

8 that --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it would not need a new number. Then the

10 number D15 will be vacated. Please proceed.


12 Q. Witness 6, yesterday, you were asked a series of questions by the

13 Presiding Judge regarding Zastava Films and Colonel Nestorovic, so I'd

14 like to ask you a couple of questions about his role.

15 Zastava Films was the film production company of the Yugoslav

16 national army; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware that Zastava Film was being used -- strike the word

19 "used." Are you aware that Zastava Film was being utilized by the army

20 of the Republika Srpska Krajina in the weeks and months before Operation

21 Storm?

22 A. I'm not aware of that. They were present in Knin. That's what I

23 can tell you. That's what I do know. They followed a military exercise

24 that had been going on in Slunj. I think it was for St. Vitus's Day, and

25 they were in Knin on that day by accident. That's what I think, by

Page 954

1 accident. They were in a position to record everything that happened on

2 that day.

3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, we have disclosed last night a

4 document which has not been loaded in e-court yet, but it is an internal

5 of the army RSK document indicating precisely what the witness says

6 regarding the video recording of a military exercise in June. And in the

7 document that we've disclosed to the Prosecution - actually, it was given

8 to us by the Prosecution and disclosed - we indicated we wished to use

9 it. In the document, internal RSK document, it says that the Zastava

10 Film company will make this production for the use by the military.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is this -- or Mr. Margetts, is this a

12 matter that is challenged or would you agree that?

13 MR. MARGETTS: We have no challenge to that document, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No challenge to that document.

16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do we need it in evidence, or is it - let me just

18 have a look at it - or is it agreed that this --

19 MR. MARGETTS: Just for clarity, we have no challenge to the

20 admission of that document.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we're not talking about any agreement on

22 the content of whether it's true or not.

23 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it's up to you to tender this document.

25 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 955

1 JUDGE ORIE: That is not yet uploaded, so I take it that your

2 case manager will deal with Madam Registrar as soon as it has been

3 uploaded.

4 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the number to be assigned to it is, I take it,

6 the vacated number, D15, marked for -- no, not marked for identification.

7 There's no objection against it, so it could be an exhibit right away.

8 Admitted into evidence, D15.

9 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, there's another matter. Please proceed and

11 I'll find it.

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now, yesterday, the Presiding Judge asked you a question about

14 Colonel Nestorovic's role and whether he was acting in a military

15 capacity, and the transcript reference is page 892, lines 21 to 22. In

16 your response, you said: "He was a colonel by rank, but he wasn't into

17 the military. What he was into, to the extent that I could judge, was

18 culture."

19 Do you recall that testimony yesterday?

20 A. Well, I don't know what you mean when you say he was not in the

21 army. If he held the rank of a colonel, that means he was in the army.

22 Q. I'm simply repeating what you said yesterday, and I'm asking you

23 -- again, your quote yesterday was: "He was a colonel by rank, but he

24 wasn't into the military. What he was into, to the extent that I could

25 judge, was culture." That was your quote -- your statement yesterday; is

Page 956

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes, yes. Yes, you're right. If I may just clarify that.

3 Q. I'll ask you some questions. Let me --

4 A. If I could explain.

5 Q. -- ask you some questions.

6 A. You've asked me this question, if I can be allowed to answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You can add whatever you'd like to at the end of it;

8 but, at this moment, you should listen to the questions put to you by

9 Mr. Misetic.

10 Then, Mr. Misetic, may I take it that you will indicate when

11 we're leaving this subject, and then the witness will have an opportunity

12 to further add.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Colonel Nestorovic was working for the film production company of

16 the Yugoslav army. You recognise that; correct?

17 A. Yes, I do agree with that.

18 Q. He was in military uniform filming on the 4th; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. He was in a military uniform, and he was recording things

20 on the 4th of August. That is true.

21 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that Colonel Nestorovic was

22 exercising a military function on the 4th of August, 1995?

23 A. Well, I really don't understand what you're asking me,

24 "exercising." He was filming things as he had been doing in the previous

25 days for Zastava Film; and on that day, he recorded footage. I don't

Page 957

1 know whether it was for the purpose of Zastava Film or whether that was

2 for his personal use and then he went on to make a movie out of that.

3 But we can see here that it says "Zastava Film," so this film was

4 actually produced by Zastava Film.

5 When I said that he was into culture, he told me that within the

6 military, he was dealing with culture, that he was a director, and that

7 he directed this film. That's all I know about him. I didn't really

8 socialise with him so that I could be able to give you more details about

9 him.

10 Q. Okay. So we're in agreement that, although you say he was

11 dealing with culture, it was culture within the context of the military;

12 is that correct?

13 A. That's true, because the army produced films. You know that

14 Zastava Film was a production company and that they produced education --

15 educational materials for the army. They produced those films, and he

16 worked in Zastava Film for the army as a director.

17 Q. Now, in some of your answers to my most recent questions, you've

18 said -- you indicated that you've had conversations with Colonel

19 Nestorovic; is that correct?

20 A. Well, I had some conversations with him to the effect that I met

21 him on that day when this footage was made. I was dealing with culture

22 myself, and I wanted to use him to do some recordings that would -- that

23 I could use for my job, for what I was doing, to make some recordings of

24 the Knin fortress and so on. So that's how I actually came to meet him.

25 Q. In the course of your conversations, you also had conversations

Page 958

1 about his filming on the 4th of August, 1995; is that correct?

2 A. Well, I couldn't talk to him. I had talked to him in days

3 before. On that day, I did not see him. I did not discuss the

4 recordings on the 4th because I didn't know that this would happen on the

5 4th.

6 Q. I think you misunderstood the question. I'm asking you in

7 subsequent conversations, in the months and years after Operation Storm,

8 did you have conversations with Colonel Nestorovic about his filming the

9 events of the 4th of August, 1995?

10 A. In the subsequent conversations, actually, I met with him once or

11 twice when he handed over the film to me. He had told me that he had

12 something for me. He handed over the film to me, telling me how the film

13 came to be made, and the film itself speaks for itself. Because of the

14 contacts that we had had, he felt an obligation to call me and to tell me

15 that he had some footage, and then he handed the footage over it me. But

16 I did not remain in contact with him, so we didn't have many occasions to

17 meet and to socialise.

18 Q. In your conversations with Colonel Nestorovic, who is now

19 deceased; is that correct?

20 A. As far as I know, he is not deceased. He's retired. I assume

21 that he left Belgrade and that he lives in Serbian hinterland somewhere.

22 Q. Okay. In your conversations with Colonel Nestorovic, did he ever

23 tell you that he was able to film from different locations on the 4th

24 because the UN force in Knin had loaned him an armoured vehicle?

25 A. Well, this is the first that I hear of those forces loaning him

Page 959

1 an armoured vehicle. He told me that he filmed various locations as he

2 moved around the town with his cameraman called Zubovic. He even climbed

3 up onto the Knin fortress, and you can see that some broad sweeps were

4 filmed from up there. You can see that he started making his recordings

5 right in the early morning when the attack started. He went all the way

6 up to the Knin hospital.

7 As far as I know, from what he told me, he simply walked around

8 the town. That's how he made all those recordings. He did not use any

9 vehicles.

10 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you the following question: On the 4th of

11 August, was there smoke coming from the area of the Tvik factory in Knin?

12 A. I have to note that the air in the whole of the town was

13 different than it usually was. I can't tell why that was. Maybe because

14 of all the roofs that had been hit. There was some red plumes of smoke

15 all over the town. There was a weird atmosphere in the air, and I think

16 that this was something that you could perceive as you breathed. There

17 was this strange air in the town, and I think that you could not see the

18 sun because of everything that was in the air. There was -- there were

19 those clouds rising up all over the town.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Misetic did not invite you to describe

21 the totality of the air in the city. His question simply was whether

22 there was smoke coming from the area of the Tvik factory. Could you

23 please focus your answer on that question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give my answer, and that is

25 that clouds were rising up as I moved around the town. As I explained

Page 960

1 yesterday, I was able to see that there were clouds of smoke rising up

2 above Tvik factory.

3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. Now, Your Honours, we've prepared a

4 Power Point presentation of the video. It's in e-court, actually.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It is in e-court.

6 MR. MISETIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And it --

8 MR. MISETIC: It is number 16 on our list which is 1D11-06-06.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be D16, marked for

11 identification.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I have already asked about the

13 comparative videos, is there is any objection against admission of those?

14 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour. There is no objection against

15 the admission of the comparative videos. We would only say this, that

16 the second video is also on our 65 ter list and we had intended to

17 introduce that in evidence as well.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So then you can use that at a later stage, since it

19 is already admitted as a Defence exhibit.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. I think, as I understand, the

21 Defence movement for admission, it's for the portions of the video that

22 they've selected, rather than the video.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you'd say the whole of it you had on your

24 list.

25 MR. MARGETTS: So we would say that we had the whole of the video

Page 961

1 on the list, and we would come back to it --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will see whether there is any need to assign

3 a new number to that when you want to introduce that.

4 For the time being, Madam Registrar, the two comparative videos

5 which are, I think, 13 and 14, if I'm correct, are admitted into

6 evidence.

7 Please proceed with the Power Point.

8 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. I don't have the exhibit on my screen,

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I.

11 MR. MISETIC: Sorry. It's just, Madam Registrar, 1D11.

12 Q. Sir, let me note, first, the green pin, there in the middle, does

13 that mark the location of the Tvik factory in Knin?

14 A. Yes. That's where the Tvik factory was in Knin.

15 MR. MISETIC: Now, I'm going to ask, Your Honours. We now have

16 the different locations from which Colonel Nestorovic filmed, and we can

17 take the Trial Chamber in the video to each location. But our objective

18 is to show the Court that Colonel Nestorovic shot the spoke from the Tvik

19 factory from each of these different angles, and it creates the

20 appearance that there is smoke coming from different buildings. If the

21 court wishes, I can take you through each scene.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not in my memory any more the details of

23 every plume of smoke.

24 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, please guide us through it and ask

Page 962

1 the witness -- I don't know whether the witness can add anything to that.

2 MR. MISETIC: Well, yesterday, he was used by the Prosecution,

3 Your Honour, to identify smoke coming from various areas, so I would like

4 to put questions to him and to say: Is this the direction toward the

5 Tvik factory?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

7 MR. MISETIC: For the transcript, Your Honour, we are now going

8 to 9:06 in the video.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. MISETIC: It's actually on 9:08 --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. MISETIC: It's actually now 9:08 on the video that I'm

13 looking at.

14 Q. Witness 6, the flames and the smoke that we see in this picture,

15 is that the area of the Tvik factory?

16 A. I can tell, based on what I know about the location of the

17 cameraman and Colonel Nestorovic -- well, I can't. I can't really tell

18 you where the smoke is coming from here.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The picture seems of such a darkness that I

20 wonder whether it's wise to insist on obtaining further evidence on --

21 MR. MISETIC: I can move on then, and through a further witness

22 try to establish --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

24 MR. MISETIC: We're going now to 9:21 in the video.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 963


2 Q. Do you recognise this location in the town of Knin?

3 A. I can't recognise anything at all.

4 Q. Okay. Next, we'll move to 10:48.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do recognise this location.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. You do recognise this location. Is the Tvik factory behind this

10 location?

11 A. This is Agroprevreda. It's in front of the factory, and the

12 factory's right behind.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. MISETIC: 11:01 is the next clip.

15 [Videotape played]


17 Q. Do you recognise this location in Knin?

18 A. Yes. As far as I can tell, this is the bridge over the rail

19 tracks.

20 Q. And do you know what is to the left of the bridge over the

21 railway tracks in Knin?

22 A. It should be Tvik, the factory.

23 Q. Thank you, Your Honour -- thank you, Witness.

24 MR. MISETIC: The next clip is 12:23.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 964


2 Q. Do you recognise this location in Knin?

3 A. Yes. This is in the north of Knin, and these are the buildings

4 that we marked yesterday, across the way from the Veljko Vlahovic

5 elementary school building. It is the same neighbourhood as Agroprevreda

6 and the Tvik factory. These buildings are behind those locations that

7 I've just specified.

8 Q. Where is the Tvik factory in relation to the buildings that we

9 see here?

10 A. It is behind these buildings where you can see the smoke rising.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness 6.

12 MR. MISETIC: 12:44 is the next clip.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. MISETIC: Again, for the transcript, there's a Slight

15 correction. It is 12:46 in the video that's being presented in court.

16 Q. Sir, do you recognise this location in Knin?

17 A. Yes. This is the railway station.

18 Q. And can you tell us where the Tvik factory is in relation to this

19 picture?

20 A. Again, it's precisely where you can see the smoke rising.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness 6.

22 MR. MISETIC: The next is at 13 minutes.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Do you recognise this location in Knin, Witness 6?

Page 965

1 A. It's the same place you showed me a while ago. The angle was

2 different though. This is the bridge over the railway tracks and the

3 plume of smoke rising from where the Tvik factory should be.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness 6.

5 MR. MISETIC: And 13:05, please.

6 [Videotape played]


8 Q. I believe you identified this -- or, yesterday, we discussed this

9 clip. But the smoke in the background there, where is that coming from?

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What we're looking at is two

12 different places from which the smoke is coming: One is to the left of

13 the Tvik factory and the other is to the right. There are two separate

14 locations that were shelled and that caught fire.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness 6.

16 MR. MISETIC: I'd like to turn next to --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. MISETIC: Madam Registrar, next, we'd like to turn to

19 1D11-0607.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be, Madam Registrar, number?

21 THE REGISTRAR: D17, marked for identification, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any objections against the Power Point

23 presentation?

24 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I apologise. Let me go back to that

25 exhibit just so I can ask --

Page 966

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. MISETIC: Sorry. Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, you've now looked at the videos. Does this presentation

4 accurately reflect the different locations from which the video of the

5 Tvik factory burning was shot?

6 A. Yes. This was recorded as a number of different locations, and

7 then all the way to those buildings near the school building in the

8 northern sector of Knin. So this was the route that they followed.

9 Q. And you're saying that your information is that Colonel

10 Nestorovic walked throughout the entire area on this map from which we

11 see the different locations that filming took place?

12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the witness's evidence on the record

13 is that he did recognise some of the locations. Accordingly, I think, if

14 there is going to be a representation of the witness's evidence, it needs

15 to reflect which locations he recognised and which locations he didn't

16 recognise.

17 MR. MISETIC: I believe there were two locations that he did not

18 recognise, Your Honour, and we will amend the exhibit for this witness.

19 I'll submit one to counsel, and we can go over it later.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That being clarified, please proceed.

22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Now I'd like to turn to

23 the next exhibit.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But before doing so, with great interest, of

25 course, I listened to the answers of the witness. If I see a picture

Page 967

1 being shot with a camera, knowing that cameras can zoom in, can zoom out,

2 can do all kind of things, shouldn't we first ask the witness: Were you

3 present when these pictures were shot by Mr. Nestorovic? Did you follow

4 him on his trip?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't even see him that

6 day. I have no idea what he did.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you say that the locations, as marked on this

8 picture, are the locations from where the pictures were shot? It's not

9 of your own observation, but it's just on the basis of the footage that

10 you saw that you confirm that these are the places; is that correctly

11 understood?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, based on what I saw, because

13 as I said, I was not with Colonel Nestorovic that day.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even if I would be very familiar with Knin,

15 Mr. Misetic, I wonder how I ever could say it was at this distance.

16 Direction, fine; altitude, higher, lower, fine; but distance?

17 MR. MISETIC: I don't think I was talking about distance, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, locations from where the pictures were shot.

20 That means the distance to the Tvik factory, isn't it?

21 MR. MISETIC: I see.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Now I can imagine that you say it was from a higher

23 point of view, from a lower point of view; direction, fine. But if I

24 shoot a picture you now, how could you know that it was five metres or

25 whether I'm one metre further back or one metre further. So you're

Page 968

1 asking the witness something, at least in my view, but please correct me

2 if I'm wrong, he could not possibly infer from which angle --

3 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] I understand, Your Honour

4 but I'm only interested in the angle, not the location it was shot at.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the angle. If you say it's angle and that's

6 what you ask the witness to confirm, then I'm fine with it.

7 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: But locations, I'm not fine with that.

9 MR. MISETIC: I was just interested in the angle.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

11 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 The next page, please. In light of your last comment, Your

13 Honour, I'm not sure how interested you'll be in this, but this slide is

14 intended to show you the images we've just shown, where the angle would

15 have come from each image. It's intended it show how the camera crew

16 would have travelled to shoot all these locations. Because in the

17 original video, if you note the minute markings on the video, you'll see

18 that the film develops in a temporal order on the video, and you can

19 follow exactly the path that's taken to shoot it. Our intention is only

20 to show not the -- I'm not interested in proving where the cameramen

21 were, just to show the comparison with the next picture.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then again, I take this is on the basis of an

23 assumption that the timing on the video corresponds with the --

24 MR. MISETIC: Angles.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- the timing of the original chronology, which, as

Page 969

1 far as I am concerned, is not yet established, neither is it

2 established --

3 MR. MISETIC: Right.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So I do not know what the sequence in the original

5 film is.

6 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You were, I take it, paying some attention to

8 editing.

9 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I just wanted to show the next slide, and

10 you'll see the editing. This is the original which we would present and

11 I guess we will introduce it when the Prosecution introduces through its

12 65 ter.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the raw material you're now talking about?

14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. In fact, it's 65 ter number

15 3759, which is the video that we intended to introduce at some stage in

16 the proceeding. It seems, since we're analysing these images in this

17 detail, that we -- it would be appropriate to move the admission of that

18 video now in the context of this witnesses evidence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to the parties whether they think this is

20 the appropriate moment to introduce that material, but we're now talking

21 about -- because I see that on this picture, there are times indicated,

22 and that's on the raw material. Is that well understood?

23 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is this challenged in any way?

25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we do challenge that image. We're

Page 970

1 not entirely sure how helpful this image is, and we certainly think that

2 it would probably be beneficial if we were able to discuss with the

3 Defence the video introduced and this video.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to do so; but at this moment, the

5 Defence is working on the basis that the times, as indicated on this

6 picture, are times taken from the original raw material, and I take it

7 then it's the time from the camera.

8 MR. MISETIC: Right. That's correct.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's, therefore, a different time from the times

10 we saw on the footage, where the time indicates where in time in this

11 edited footage we are.

12 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Whereas, here we are talking about real time on the

14 raw material apparently coming from the camera.

15 MR. MISETIC: Let me propose this. If we could go to the next

16 page. I just want to go to the next page, and we will -- just so the

17 Court under stands what we're doing. But I will talk to counsel during

18 the break and then we'll work out how we want to -- how we wish to do

19 this comparison.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least we now know on the basis of what

21 assumption you are presenting this to us.

22 MR. MISETIC: Correct. This next slide, it was intended to

23 compare the two and then to show, in the film that you saw yesterday, the

24 sequencing of how things were represented and images were ordered does

25 not follow how a logical path through Knin would have taken place.

Page 971

1 Again, I will work with counsel during the break and see if we can't work

2 out an agreement.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what you present in evidence is two

4 reconstructions --

5 MR. MISETIC: Correct.

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- one on the basis of the timing in the original

7 raw material, the other one on the basis of the timing as we found it in

8 the edited version of this video.

9 MR. MISETIC: Correct, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Please proceed.

11 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could inquire, Your

12 Honour, what does the Chamber intend to take a break?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Usually at 10.30.

14 MR. MISETIC: 10.30. Okay.

15 Q. Witness 6, I'd like to take you through some of the images that

16 you identified yesterday from the video that we were looking at, and one

17 was image -- or point E that you identified. This was identified by the

18 Prosecution, point E, location of damaged buildings depicted at counter

19 times 12:24:87 and 12:28:83.

20 MR. MISETIC: I guess these images are not in e-court yet, just

21 the slides, Your Honour, that we were using yesterday.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The slides of yesterday, no, they were not, because

23 I think we considered this just reproduced and was material that would

24 assist us in viewing the images we had seen already on the video. So,

25 therefore, these have not been given exhibit numbers. If you need them,

Page 972

1 please tell us; otherwise, just refer to them by the timing of the video

2 as we did yesterday.

3 MR. MISETIC: Okay. Then if we could -- this is 12:24.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could there be placed again on the ELMO as they were

5 yesterday, or do we see them now.

6 MR. MISETIC: I'm actually going to use the video, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. Then we leave it as this.


9 Q. Witness 6, you were asked to identify where this location is

10 yesterday, and you marked that location as "point E." Can you tell us

11 where the Senjak military barracks is in relation to that house?

12 A. The Senjak military barracks was behind these buildings. I think

13 this is a neighbourhood that people locally referred to as the 3rd of

14 December. So the Senjak barracks was right behind these roofs.

15 Q. Do you happen to know if Milan Martic lived in the general area

16 of these houses?

17 A. Not in these buildings but nearby, at least as far as I knew.

18 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to 13:07 --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. MISETIC: This is now 13:07.

21 Q. This is what you identified as "F" on the map yesterday. Do

22 you -- where is the army hall in relation to the burning house here?

23 A. The army hall was sort of to the north at a distance of about 50

24 metres from this house, or thereabouts. What you can see in the

25 foreground is the old Knin secondary school. That is the middle of the

Page 973

1 town, the centre of town; and, right behind, you can see the railway

2 station and the smoke over it.

3 MR. MISETIC: Madam Registrar, if we could call up 1D11-0610.

4 Q. Witness 6, is that a close-up picture of the house that you

5 marked as point F on the map yesterday?

6 A. Yes. I can see exactly what it is right now. Right here, in

7 this corner, this passage between the two houses, I know that place

8 really well because my manager used to live there. Across the way is the

9 health station attached to the railway station; and then you can see a

10 private home there that was hit, and I think the Dinara Hotel is nearby.

11 That's the other site. It's right above. You can't actually see it

12 here.

13 MR. MISETIC: Can we go to the next page, Madam Registrar, and

14 the next page, please.

15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Your Honour, I think

16 there was something missed that the witness said about the military

17 facility being located nearby. It was missed in the translation in the

18 English.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you could please confer with Mr. Misetic so that

20 he knows which question he should put again to the witness, so that we

21 can hear the complete answer.

22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: In answering the last question, Your Honour, I'm

23 sorry, the witness had mentioned is something about the military barracks

24 in B/C/S being just outside of where this picture was, and it did not get

25 caught in the translation into the answer.

Page 974

1 MR. MISETIC: Let me ask the witness again.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you please ask that again.

3 Mr. Kuzmanovic.

4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you can follow the original

6 language and that something is missing. Nevertheless, you're invited not

7 to explain what's wrong, but to point at a translation issue and ask for

8 it to be repeated, rather than to tell everyone what the answer was,

9 which could have an effect which I am certain you did not intend --

10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- but which could have a certain effect --

12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Understood.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- which I'd like to avoid.

14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Understood.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please continue.


17 Q. Witness 6, in your prior your answer, could you repeat your prior

18 answer with respect to military barracks.

19 A. What I can say is that the building on fire, where we can see the

20 fire, this is at a distance of about 100 or 200 metres, not from the

21 barracks, but from the army hall, because that was the army hall in Knin

22 and the barracks was up north. This is further south. This is not where

23 the barracks was. This was the army hall.

24 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 3 of this exhibit,

25 Madam Registrar.

Page 975

1 Q. Witness 6, does the area with the circle mark the house that was

2 shelled on the 4th of August, 1995?

3 A. Yes, I think that's it.

4 Q. The area that is marked with a -- go ahead.

5 A. I'm actually quite certain about that because I went to that

6 school, which is right next to the house that was shelled. Therefore,

7 I'm quite familiar with this part of town.

8 Q. Now, to the left there, in the area marked rectangularly, is that

9 the complex the Main Staff of the army of Srpska Krajina?

10 A. You know this rectangle that I can see is quite large, but there

11 is an arrow there coming from above, and that would roughly be consistent

12 with the place where -- well, I can't be quite specific. If I could, I

13 would show you where the army hall might be, but I can't tell you here

14 because the rectangle is actually quite large, and I can't place the army

15 hall there. Maybe if I can use the ELMO and if you want me to show you

16 there, I could be more specific.

17 It is certainly an at a distance of about 100 metres, say, in

18 relation to the building that was shelled that we were looking at a while

19 ago, perhaps even less, maybe 70 to 80 metres in relation to this circle

20 that we can see here, and then within this rectangle.

21 MR. MISETIC: I don't know if the Court wishes to break now, but

22 I have some follow-up questions on this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that would take more than just one or two

24 minutes, then we will have a break.

25 MR. MISETIC: Yes, one or two minutes.

Page 976

1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, this series of photographs has not

2 been assigned a number yet.

3 Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be D18, marked for

5 identification.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Have we had the whole of the series yet or not?

7 MR. MISETIC: I think there's one more.

8 JUDGE ORIE: There's one more, then we will wait to hear if

9 there's any objection after we have seen the whole of the series.

10 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break now, Witness 6, and we will

12 resume at 11.00.

13 Could you give us an indication of how much more time you need,

14 Mr. Misetic.

15 MR. MISETIC: I think I can hopefully wrap up in about an hour,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 We resume at 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you may proceed.

22 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, Your Honours.

23 Q. Witness 6, yesterday, you will recall you marked for

24 identification on your map point G, and I'll pull the video so you can

25 refer to the scene.

Page 977

1 I'm referring now to that smoke in the background there. Do you

2 recall testifying about the location of that smoke yesterday?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Do you recall that your testimony, in marking this location, was

5 that the smoke was coming from a residential area?

6 A. In this still, we can see two plumes of smoke rising in two

7 different locations. The one closer to us is in the town self near the

8 railway station -- in front of the railway station towards the fortress.

9 And the other one that you can see further off, that's behind

10 Agroprevreda. Right next to it, there's the Tvik factory. But as far as

11 this plume of smoke, as far as I can tell, that is a residential area.

12 There are private moments there, and Senjak, the military barracks, is

13 also nearby.

14 Q. Thank you. And if we can assist the Trial Chamber, Witness 6, I

15 will pull up --

16 MR. MISETIC: Madam Registrar, 1D11-0591.

17 Q. You mentioned the Senjak barracks, Witness 6.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That exhibit will be assigned what number, or is it

19 one of the series?

20 MR. MISETIC: It needs a new number, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a new number, because I think you said we

22 went through the series apart from one.

23 MR. MISETIC: Yes. We had a discussion during the break, Your

24 Honour, and we will not tender the last exhibit. I am assuming that's

25 what we're talking about.

Page 978

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're looking at a series of photographs,

2 isn't it, where you said, I think, we have seen three out of four.

3 MR. MISETIC: This is a new exhibit.

4 JUDGE ORIE: This is a new exhibit.


6 JUDGE ORIE: And what will happen to the series, because we

7 waited for you to show the last one, the fourth in line.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we had a discussion about the series

9 and the rationale for that presentation and representation of the videos.

10 The parties have come to some substantial agreement with regard to the

11 videos.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I will refrain from any further questions.

13 Madam Registrar, this 1D11-0591 would have what exhibit number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will have D18, marked for

15 identification.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

17 MR. MISETIC: Page 2, Madam Registrar.

18 Q. Witness 6, you mentioned, in your last answer, the Senjak

19 military barracks. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where on this map the

20 Senjak military barracks is located?

21 A. Well, I would need another building to be pointed out to me,

22 because I cannot see this on this image. I was never in a position to

23 look at a map of this sort, so I would need some assistance to be able to

24 point to Senjak. As it is, I'm unable to do so.

25 Q. Witness 6, I believe the map that you marked yesterday is also an

Page 979

1 aerial photograph. When you marked the map for the Prosecution, I

2 believe it was -- you were able to mark the residential location.

3 Perhaps if we look --

4 A. Yes. I marked it as being across the road from the Tvik factory.

5 The area marked with G would be the residential area, and the Senjak is

6 somewhere nearby. It is just before this area marked with G.

7 Q. So the -- sorry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, would it be an idea that we use the

9 technical facilities of marking on these kind of maps that would then

10 have another copy which could be marked for the witness, or even this one

11 to be marked by the witness? The only important thing is it cannot be

12 zoomed in and out any more once the marking has started; but if the

13 witness says this is before this or before that, then of course the

14 Chamber is lost.

15 MR. MISETIC: Right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So, with the assistance of the usher, we could do

17 some markings. At the same time, I'm a bit concerning about you marking

18 "G" on a map which is not fully corresponding with what yesterday was

19 marked as G, because only the right hand portion of G is what is in the G

20 circle of yesterday.

21 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. Perhaps could we mark this map, then,

24 nevertheless, if he can identify where the military barracks is?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you want, but then we only have the marked

Page 980

1 map. But that's fine as far as I'm concerned.

2 Mr. Usher, could you please. Could we also -- what colours do we

3 have available? Red, blue. Shall we take that, as more or less as a

4 standard, marking in red in the future will be marking on the request of

5 the Prosecution and marking in blue would be the marking on the request

6 of the Defence.

7 Mr. Usher, could you give the blue pen to the witness. The

8 witness should not start marking unless he knows exactly what he's

9 invited to mark.

10 If so, would you first carefully listen to Mr. Misetic before you

11 start marking.

12 Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

13 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, Your Honour, if I may. Would I like to

15 make a correction of the transcript. This document will be D19 instead

16 of D18.

17 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18 Q. Witness 6, could you please circle the area --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just to avoid any confusion, that's 1D11-0592, which

20 has now received this new exhibit number.

21 I do understand that, in the end, 91 and 92 is the same exhibit.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness, 6, could you please circle the area on this map that is

25 the Senjak military barracks?

Page 981

1 A. I think it's this area here. I think that's the area behind the

2 buildings that we were able to see and that we marked. But the Senjak

3 military barracks did not serve that function. Some new premises, some

4 new buildings were built there. That was not the army that was there.

5 That was just some new buildings that were built during the war. I think

6 that the Senjak military barracks area would correspond with this area

7 that I marked as "G" here.

8 Q. Could you -- could you identify on this map, with a number 1, the

9 area that you believe -- you believe is the area that was hit by shells

10 and that you identified as mark "G" yesterday?

11 A. On this map that I see in front of me?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. [Marks] So should I put in "1" here.

14 Q. Okay. Let me take you to the video.

15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, this is going to be minute mark 10:13

16 of the video that was presented in court yesterday.

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, are we already at a point where we

19 could save the marked exhibits, or do you need still further marking

20 because we have then a problem, because it will disappear from the

21 screen. So you see what the problem is.

22 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Marking is a process which starts and ends, and so

24 we have to store this one, and we cannot do another marking on the same

25 one. Then we should retrieve this one.

Page 982

1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, let my say this: I believe, when the

2 witness sees the video, he may make different markings. So I don't mind

3 that --

4 JUDGE ORIE: So this one is not to be saved at this moment. It's

5 just the original, that's 0591, which unmarked is there, and you might

6 invite him to do another marking.


8 JUDGE ORIE: But then just for the record, so that it's there,

9 that the witness marked on this picture in the right square, to say,

10 marked with a letter "G," he circled around this letter G and marked a 1

11 in blue on this map. But it will not be saved at this moment.

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.

14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, just to eliminate any confusion

15 regarding the colourings to be used, is it that the Defence witnesses are

16 to use red or just witnesses when they're being questioned by the Defence

17 are to use red?

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'll think about this very useful question and then

19 give you further guidance.

20 Mr. Kuzmanovic, I can tell you already the following: The

21 importance of the difference in colours is that, if a witness marks on

22 behalf of one party and then add some marking on the request of another

23 party, then at the end we find a picture with a lot of markings on it,

24 and we do not know any more which marking was made by whom. So,

25 therefore, I would say it's not a matter of Defence or Prosecution

Page 983

1 witnesses, but rather on who's request the markings were made.

2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


5 Q. Witness 6, do you see the video in front of you?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Do you recognise this location?

8 A. Well, that would be facing the fortress, more or less. I think

9 this was taken from an area close to the Tvik factory, because this might

10 be the view of the fortress from that location.

11 Q. That wall that you see there, is that a wall that surrounded the

12 Senjak military barracks?

13 A. It might be. That is the position, and you might say that it

14 actually went around the Senjak barracks.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. MISETIC: Now, if we could play the video slowly until --

17 until 10:24.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Do you see the fire in the --

21 A. This might be, yes. I think that this was one of the new

22 buildings that were built there at Senjak. That's the building that was

23 hit there.

24 Q. That's a building that was part of Senjak?

25 A. Yes, part of Senjak.

Page 984

1 Q. Is this building close to the area that you marked as "G" on the

2 map yesterday?

3 A. I assume. Actually, now that I'm looking at this film, and

4 having in mind the map that we saw yesterday, I think that this building

5 was a little bit away from the area that we marked. It was closer to the

6 town. The one that we marked yesterday was a little bit away. I was

7 unable to determine that yesterday, but --

8 Q. Well, we can go back --

9 A. -- now I can determine that this is the area of the Senjak.

10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, then I'd like to go back to 13:33 of

11 the -- of this same video.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Witness 6, the burning building that was part of Senjak, is that

15 in the general vicinity of the smoke that we see in the background of

16 this clip?

17 A. Well, I assume that what we saw a little while ago might be the

18 plume of smoke rising from that very same location, and that that is the

19 building that was hit that we have seen just now.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness 6.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my understanding, earlier a wall was shown,

22 and you testified that this the wall or the kind of wall that surrounded

23 Senjak. Now, from where that picture was taken, was that inside or was

24 that just outside the Senjak complex?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The footage was taken outside of

Page 985

1 the wall, the wall of the Senjak compound. What is shown here is from

2 further away, but I assume that it might be showing the area that we saw

3 before.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Did I then also understand well that the fire we

5 saw, which was when the camera panned to left, is still outside the

6 Senjak complex?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assumed it was inside the Senjak

8 compound. When the camera is switched on, when it starts to move, we can

9 see that the burning building is inside the fenced-in area; but after

10 all, you can check that on the spot because the remains of that building

11 still stand in Knin.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Can you please look at your screen where we have

13 this original picture looking in the direction of the fortress. You see

14 there's a wall consisting of what seems to be some kind of concrete, or

15 whatever other material, with some buildings of which only the roofs are

16 visible to the right of that wall. Do you see that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, are those buildings where we can only see the

19 roofs, are they inside or outside the Senjak complex?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are inside the complex, as far

21 as I'm able to ascertain, looking from this side.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then when the camera pans to the left and shows the

23 picture of a burning structure, then my inference would be that that

24 would be outside the Senjak complex as well.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the best thing to do would be

Page 986

1 to look at the recording and to see, because I'm unable to determine that

2 there here.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We have the possibility to play that.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this, I'm unable to

6 determine whether it was inside or outside, because Senjak was walled in

7 on all four sides by that wall that we saw. So I can't tell from which

8 side this recording was taken. I assume it was inside Senjak, because

9 that building that was set on fire was inside the Senjak compound.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anyway the parties could agree on this,

11 because the witness is to some extent confusing me, unless that wall

12 goes in unexpected --

13 MR. MISETIC: I can go back with the consent of the Court and

14 leeway from my colleagues.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I want to know is whether we looked

16 at a picture of a structure, apparently it looks like a house, burning

17 inside or outside that complex.

18 MR. MISETIC: I will make an offer of proof, Your Honour, that

19 it's not a house. It's actually a depot, and it is outside the complex

20 itself.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We hardly can see anything from that

22 building.

23 MR. MISETIC: That's why I was using the map.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But if there's any objection against the Chamber

25 understanding, this was outside the Senjak complex, whatever it might

Page 987

1 have been, then I'd like to know.

2 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, our understanding is consistent with

3 Your Honour's understanding.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we don't need to bother the witness with it any

5 more.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Again, can we have the Exhibit D19 back on the screen. With a

9 little --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to have the unmarked or marked

11 version on the screen at this moment?

12 MR. MISETIC: Unmarked.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Unmarked. Is there a possibility, Madam Registrar,

14 to have the unmarked version? It's even possible to -- yes. Mr. Usher,

15 could you please assist and remove the markings from this picture. There

16 we are.

17 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. MISETIC: Again, Your Honour, I am going to do this in order

20 to lead the witness a little bit and move this along.

21 Q. Witness 6, the road below the G on the right-hand side --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask for the assistance of the usher? He

23 can use an arrow just to indicate and see. Well, I think it can be done

24 from your computer, but also perhaps there, so that we all know what we

25 are looking at. No, no markings at this moment, please. I just want you

Page 988

1 to use the curser in order to follow the question.


3 Q. Witness 6, please look at the road below the G on the left-hand

4 side. Do you see that road?

5 A. This road?

6 Q. Yes, that one. To the left, on the leaf side of that road, is

7 that the Senjak military barracks?

8 A. Senjak.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes. To the left of the road, that's where Senjak should be.

11 Q. So the wall that we saw on the film is along the left-hand side

12 of that road; is that correct?

13 A. This is where the wall should be, here; because if you look

14 across the wall, you see the fortress. So the wall should be here on

15 this side.

16 Q. Now, is the burning building that we saw in the box -- the box

17 marked G on the left-hand side?

18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, there are two boxes marked G at this

19 stage.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Misetic, at the right-hand side, could

21 we ask the witness to point with the cursor where he thinks Mr. Misetic

22 is referring to.

23 Mr. Misetic, you would then confirm that he's right or wrong.

24 Could you just use the cursor and move it to the area marked G

25 where you say the house or at least the structure was burning.

Page 989

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the first time I said that it

2 appeared to me, when I looked at this video again, that this was the

3 area, in here; but I cannot really be very precise, so that would be a

4 rough estimate. It might be here.

5 After we were able to look at the wall from which you can see the

6 fortress, and after your correct conclusion that this was a building that

7 is outside of Senjak, and on the first recording you can see that this

8 might correspond to this larger rectangle marked G.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is pointing with the cursor now to

10 the rectangular structure marked G, but the right [Realtime transcript

11 read in error "left"] one, not the left one.

12 Please proceed.


14 Q. Can you point, Witness 6 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now I have the correct the transcript. If you would

16 read at page 53, line 3, you see that it's not reflected properly.

17 The witness pointed at the rectangular structure marked G, but

18 the right hand one, not the left hand one.

19 MR. MISETIC: If I could ask for your indulgence to take him back

20 to the video scene.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, by I just want to correct the apparent

22 mistake in the transcript.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Witness 6, you see from the camera -- do you see a fire burning

Page 990

1 there? Can you identify on the map --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- where you see --

4 A. I have to admit that now I find myself in an uncomfortable

5 situation. Based on my recollection, I cannot indicate whether it is one

6 rectangle or the other. You're asking too much from me if you're asking

7 me now to decide. I went to this part of the town rarely. It is in that

8 part of the town; but whether it is on one side or the other, it could be

9 either one of those rectangles. I cannot really be more specific than

10 that. After all, I don't think that it should be all that important,

11 unless you're saying that this is a depot that was set on fire here.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness 6.

13 We're going to go now next to the mark you made at point H

14 yesterday on the map.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, have we done with G?

16 MR. MISETIC: Yes, we have, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that, since the witness finally testified

18 that he couldn't identify either box G to the right or box G to the left

19 to be the location where the burning structure is, it finds itself that

20 we forget about the markings, and are there any objections against the

21 admission into evidence of the photograph with the two boxes marked G on

22 it, although not by the witness?

23 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour. The unmarked version of that

24 photograph.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's admitted into evidence.

Page 991

1 Please proceed.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Witness 6, this fire, how far is it from the army hall?

5 A. If we say that this is the railway station, the big building that

6 you can see here, then this would be about a hundred metres away from the

7 army -- from the army hall.

8 Q. Now, I need to clarify something, and I'm reminded to clarify

9 something for the Trial Chamber. Are you aware of where the headquarters

10 of the Main Staff was in Knin?

11 A. Well, it was in the rectangle that we had looked at earlier on

12 that image that we were talking about. That's where the headquarters

13 was. And as far as I can see, it is outside of the rectangle, closer to

14 the fortress.

15 Q. When we use the term "army hall," do you agree that the army hall

16 and the headquarters of the Main Staff were not the same building?

17 A. Yes. Yes, it is the same. I assume that it actually is the same

18 building. The army hall was located at the same place where the

19 headquarters was. There were two buildings, one next to the other. I

20 didn't really have any contacts with them, so I don't know what building

21 was used for what purpose.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, if you elicit evidence from the witness

23 about D rectangle, then I can choose out of five or six, I'm afraid. So

24 would you please be more precise. How do we ask the witness further to

25 perhaps what he --

Page 992

1 MR. MISETIC: What he means by rectangle.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Or showing the picture on which most likely

3 you will fine the rectangle he might be referring to.

4 MR. MISETIC: I will do that, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour.

5 Your Honour, if I could ask Madam Registrar to take us to D18,

6 marked for identification, I think it's page 3.

7 Q. Witness 6, when you referenced a rectangle in your last answer,

8 is this the rectangle you were referring to?

9 A. Yes. Yes, that's the rectangle, and now I can show you. If you

10 have technical capabilities for that, I can indicate.

11 This is the building. These are the two buildings that you're

12 talking about, the two buildings where the army hall was in Knin, two

13 buildings within this box or rectangle. The picture of the fire that you

14 just showed me, that would be somewhere here at the very edge of this

15 box, in the direction of the Knin fortress. So these are the three

16 points that I marked here.

17 So here, in the foreground, you have the army hall, which is

18 here; and the image that we've just seen would be somewhere here. This

19 is where the building that was hit and that was on fire is located.

20 Q. Witness 6, we need to be more precise for the Trial Chamber. So

21 if you could use --

22 MR. MISETIC: I propose numbers, Your Honour.

23 Q. -- to identify the buildings that you're referring to?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to add anything or not, because

25 otherwise we can deal with it in a quicker way; that is, that the two

Page 993

1 blue markings most to the right are the buildings the witness referred

2 to, whereas the last reference he made was to the marking at the very

3 edge to the left in the area where we find trees.

4 MR. MISETIC: Yes. That would be fine, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Then please proceed.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, may I take it that the marked

9 version of this page needs another exhibits number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be D20, marked for

11 identification.

12 JUDGE ORIE: D20. Thank you. That's the marked page of the

13 series of photographs we've seen before.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

16 Q. Witness 6, you also identified, on the map yesterday, the

17 location of your apartment.

18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I don't know if the Court --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we are talking about apartments and where

20 the witness lived, then we have to go in --

21 MR. MISETIC: Private session.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Private session would be the best, please, and the

23 picture's not to be shown on the screen for the public.

24 Madam Registrar.

25 [Private session]

Page 994











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14 [Open Session]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, please proceed.

16 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness 6 --

18 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Are we still in private session?

19 JUDGE ORIE: No. Let me just have a look. We are in open

20 session now; but if you would need to remain in private session, we'll

21 just return into private session.

22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to ask you to

23 do that, because there might be a possibility --

24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 1019











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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm going back to your statement in which you say that that

21 morning you woke with sounds of heavy shelling. You went to a cellar

22 nearby and then to a village nearby, which we shall not be mentioning.

23 When you left your flat, did you take any important belongings

24 with you?

25 A. I didn't take anything with me, not even my diploma, and this is

Page 1028

1 something that I pointed out in my statement. I brought some wine and

2 some brandy. So talking about important belongings, we can leave it at

3 wine and brandy. I didn't take anything because I didn't think at the

4 time that I was leaving forever. I thought I was going somewhere else

5 for a day or two, until the whole thing blew over, allowing me to go

6 back; not just me, most of those who were on their way at the time, and

7 everybody did the same thing.

8 Q. But you did go back to your flat, didn't you?

9 A. Yes. When I went back to fetch the car, I went back to the flat,

10 and I gathered the things that I told you about, after which I drove back

11 to this village.

12 Q. And then you were going to roast a lamb once back in the village;

13 right?

14 A. Yes. It seemed like the cleverest thing to do at the time.

15 Q. All in the midst of the heavy shelling that you spoke about?

16 A. The shelling was taking a place at a distance of 30 or 40

17 kilometres from that village. We were expecting at the time that it

18 would come to a halt at any moment, that there would be a compromise,

19 that an agreement would be reached. Unfortunately, that was not the

20 case. A column headed out of my village, and that was that.

21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

22 questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

24 Mr. Cayley.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you.

Page 1029

1 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Cayley, who is

2 counsel for Mr. Cermak.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Cayley:

5 Q. Witness 6, good afternoon.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 MR. CAYLEY: I think we need to go into private session, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Move into private session.

10 [Private session]

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Page 1030











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Page 1037

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

Page 1038

1 Questioned by the Court:


3 Q. Witness 6, in your statement, you say that - and I'm referring to

4 paragraph 16 - "The shells fell everywhere. It did not seem that they

5 had certain targets. The purpose seemed to be to scare people and make

6 them leave."

7 Now, we went through a couple of locations which you marked on a

8 photograph of damaged buildings and plume of smoke. On the basis of what

9 we heard during the cross-examination, the plumes of smoke - of course,

10 we have seen several ones - but at some occasions might have been seven

11 times the same plume of smoke; whereas, some of the buildings - at least

12 that is what the Defence tried to establish - at first sight seemed to be

13 sometimes in the vicinity of objects that one could imagine that they

14 could be considered military targets such as barracks.

15 Now, having gone through these details, would you still say that

16 it did not seem that they had certain targets, or would you say at this

17 moment, in view of the details we have just discussed, at least part or

18 all of the shelling I saw fell at least in vicinity of the specific

19 objects which might have been chosen as targets?

20 I'd like to have your comments on the rather pertinent, rather

21 absolute way in which you phrased, "It did not seem that they had certain

22 targets. The purpose seemed to scare people and make them leave." Could

23 you please comment on it.

24 A. Well, yes, I can. What we were able to see in this film, Your

25 Honour, these are locations that were recorded by this camera at that

Page 1039

1 given time, but this shelling did not last only four the time while they

2 recorded this. It lasted until the afternoon, while I was in Knin. I

3 can say that in the morning, before the dawn broke, that sounds of shells

4 falling, the sounds of shelling, came from various directions. I

5 couldn't ascertain the directions, whether the buildings targeted were

6 military facilities, but I can say that the building close to me was

7 hit -- was among the first buildings to be hit.

8 On the other hand, in the morning hours, as I was to learn later,

9 a woman was killed in a building on the other side of the town. That's

10 Ana Tomic, a refugee from Split, a ballet dancer, a well-known person in

11 Knin. Her building was close to the Catholic church of St. Anthony in

12 Knin. On the other hand, when I was in a position to observe what was

13 happening in the town, that was at a later time around noon, I was able

14 to see what was depicted in the film; not only from those locations, but

15 also from some other positions, one could perceive, one could see that

16 buildings had been hit. I explained that, that as I moved through the

17 town, that I was able to see that some buildings had been hit.

18 So what we saw there, that would be the army hall, I assumed that

19 the fire was concentrated in that area, or rather, at the Senjak area.

20 Again, that was probably under heavily shelling. We didn't see the

21 northern barracks. It probably was also shelled quite heavily and there

22 were casualties there. This barracks is part of the town. People got

23 killed there, and also the police station. We're talking about

24 facilities that are inside the town itself. It's not a large town.

25 Those facilities are concentrated in the town itself; and if you want to

Page 1040

1 hit those facilities, you have to be really very accurate.

2 I simply have to say that this was the impression that I was left

3 with. To this day, I cannot get rid of this fear of the shelling that

4 you have inside you. So this is the context in which I can confirm that,

5 in addition to the facilities and buildings that we saw, that other

6 facilities and other buildings were hit. I could not now ascertain the

7 number of shells that hit that area, hundreds, thousands. I really can

8 only estimate here. We didn't count them, but probably there is an

9 expert who will be able to explain that. I'm sure that you will have a

10 more reliable witness here who will be able to ascertain all the other

11 locations where the shells hit.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I understand that what you say is what we saw on

13 this -- on this video footage does not give the complete, picture as I

14 saw it that day, because it's limited in time. Thank you for that

15 answer.

16 I have no further questions for you.

17 Does this question raise any further issues?

18 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Defence?

20 MR. MISETIC: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cayley, Mr. Mikulicic, not.

22 Then this had concludes your evidence. I would like to thank you

23 very much for coming to The Hague and to answer the questions of both

24 parties and of this Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

25 We stand --

Page 1041

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, the 9th of

3 April, 9.00, same courtroom.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day

6 of April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.