Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1266

1 Friday, 11 April 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to

8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Mr. Flynn, good morning.

12 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

13 JUDGE ORIE: There is hardly any need to say, but you are still

14 bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your

15 testimony that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

16 the truth.



19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, are you ready to continue your

20 cross-examination.

21 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, before Mr. Kay continues, I will

23 just want to let the court know that we will not be engaging in cross

24 today, and we will give the balance of our time, with the Court's

25 permission, to Mr. Kay or Mr. Misetic.

Page 1267

1 JUDGE ORIE: Not only not today, but not for this witness at all,

2 I take it.

3 Yes, please proceed.

4 MR. KAY: Very generous, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay: [Continued]

6 Q. Mr. Flynn, if we can just turn to that document we were trying to

7 find yesterday, where there had been a mix over the numbers.

8 MR. KAY: If we could call up P46, it's a HRAT report dated the

9 23rd [sic] of August.

10 Q. This is one of the exhibits that you produced with the

11 Prosecution.

12 A. I'm still not sure this is a HRAT report. I'm sorry.

13 Q. I call it a HRAT report because in paragraph 4, it mentions HRAT

14 and it came through you. You're known as the HRAT witness, by the way.

15 A. Oh, great.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then it must be a HRAT report.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. KAY: But forgive us for that, it's just a way we organise

19 things.

20 Q. It's from Mr. Al-Alfi with whom you were working?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You recollect those questions I asked you about the meeting in

23 Plavno on the 25th of August?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you see, on paragraph 2 of Exhibit P46, that meeting is

Page 1268

1 mentioned?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it was also to be arranged that Mr. Pasic, the mayor of Knin,

4 would be there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And at this time, Mr. Romanic informed the HRAT - not meaning

7 that you're that HRAT, but your organisation - that most of the police

8 efforts are focussing on patrolling remote areas?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was that your experience of the civil police at that time?

11 A. No, definitely not.

12 Q. As Mr. Romanic put it, "in order to locate and protect the

13 remaining population," was that your experience?

14 A. I'm sorry. That he said that they were doing that?

15 Q. That was your experience -- whether you noticed that that was

16 happening?

17 A. Yes. I did not notice a significant patrolling presence.

18 MR. KAY: If we turn to page 2 of this document, paragraph 4.

19 Q. We had a discussion yesterday about the police stations opening,

20 and remember I produced the document that showed the list of police

21 stations which were ordered to open or to be set up from the 5th of

22 August?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you said, "I doubt whether they were in place by then, and it

25 would have been much later before they were effective."

Page 1269

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In paragraph 4, we see that Mr. Romanic mentioned Gracac,

3 Donji Lapac, Korenica, Benkovac, Obrovac, and Stankovac "are now opened."

4 So it seems that you were right, that there was a period of time before

5 they were opened for business?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If we go to paragraph 6, a man called Mr. Jukic Pavo, a chemistry

8 engineer normally based in civil defence headquarters in Zagreb, is now

9 in charge of the civil defence in Knin?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you meet Mr. Jukic Pavo?

12 A. Yes, I believe I did.

13 Q. And in relation to what did you meet him?

14 A. Certainly, in relation to this matter of the collection of dead

15 bodies and the situation at the Knin cemetery. I'm not sure if I met him

16 on this occasion, however.

17 Q. Right. Presumably, in the course of your business, you met

18 people in a large number of different meetings and contexts --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- would that be right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In paragraph 7, Mr. Jukic gave figures of about 130 bodies being

23 buried by that time in the Knin area.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. By "Knin area," it's clarified here as meaning all of them in

Page 1270

1 Knin cemetery and according to international standards. Was that

2 something that you had a discussion with him or a meeting with him about,

3 the form and nature of burials being in accordance with international

4 standards?

5 A. Yes, that came up in our discussions. We were certainly paying

6 attention to what was taking place at the cemetery, to the number of

7 persons who were being buried there and to the procedures followed.

8 Q. Were you aware that the deputy prime minister, Mr. Kostovic, was

9 the only person who was allowed to speak in public on this matter?

10 A. I don't think I was aware of that, no.

11 Q. Right. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Kostovic about the

12 matter?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can we take it, from the terms of your evidence yesterday, that

15 you didn't go higher than the local regional area for dealing with these

16 problems, that ministers and more senior people either did not make

17 themselves available to you or you were unable to speak to them? Was

18 that the situation?

19 A. Yes, absolutely. And I considered that my responsibility was in

20 the former Sector South, and that discussions with more senior officials

21 would take place in Zagreb with my colleagues there.

22 Q. That leads me on to ask: What the structure was in Zagreb? What

23 was the nature of other colleagues that you had there? What was the

24 set-up for dealing with these bigger issues, perhaps, which couldn't be

25 dealt with on the ground?

Page 1271

1 A. Well, our reports went to many different locations, I think; but

2 for our purposes, they went to the humanitarian crisis cell which was a

3 structure in the office of the special representative of the Secretary

4 General, which had responsibility obviously for dealing with humanitarian

5 issues and human rights issues. And our reports also went to the office

6 of the Centre for Human Rights in Zagreb where there were about four or

7 five staff. And one reason that I left the Knin area for a few days was

8 to meet with my colleagues up there, discuss follow-up, sort of give them

9 a briefing firsthand as to what was going on in Sector South -- former

10 Sector South.

11 Q. Thank you very much. I want to turn now to the visit to Grubori

12 on the 25th of August; and yesterday or the day before, you produced

13 document P27.

14 MR. KAY: If that could be called up, please.

15 Q. I'm calling it up now to give you an opportunity to refresh your

16 memory, as it's been a little while since you've addressed these issues

17 in the courtroom.

18 A. Thank you.

19 Q. You will recollect that in the second paragraph of section 2,

20 that that afternoon, at 1630 hours, you went to General Cermak's office

21 where that office was informed of the fire and the needs of the homeless

22 residents.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Presumably, you spoke there to an English-speaking person within

25 the office?

Page 1272

1 A. Yes. And I think it was Mr. Dondo.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dondo's reaction to that information was what?

3 A. As I recall, he expressed concern, he expressed appreciation for

4 the report, and he indicated that the matter would be followed up.

5 Q. Thank you. With you on that particular mission to Grubori, were

6 what other agencies from the UN?

7 A. On that visit that day?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. The UNHCR, the High Commissioner for Refugees, there was a

10 participant from UN CIVPOL, and I believe there was a participant from

11 the political and humanitarian affairs office of the sector of UNCRO in

12 Knin.

13 Q. Right. You had gone from Grubori back to Knin to make this

14 report at that time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the length of time that it took to make that journey at that

17 time - I don't mean now in present conditions, but at that time when

18 things were probably slightly different - was how long, in your

19 estimation?

20 A. Of course, I don't recall now how long, but I would say maybe 40

21 minutes or so.

22 Q. Yes. And having returned to Knin, did anyone report what had

23 been seen at Grubori to the Knin police station?

24 A. I am not sure we went to the police station. I don't recall

25 that.

Page 1273

1 Q. Right. Did you stay together as a group or did any of the group

2 in Knin split up? Perhaps the UN CIVPOL man may have gone to the police

3 station, I don't know.

4 A. I'm really not sure. I'm having trouble recalling that.

5 Q. Right. But the report was made to Mr. Dondo. On that particular

6 day, the 25th of August, am I right that it was a -- the weather was bad

7 on that day?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The decision was made by you and your colleagues to go back to

10 Grubori that very same evening?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it was on that second visit that you discovered two murdered

13 people?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And we see the report of that in the section of the paragraph

16 below 1630.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long did you remain in Grubori on that second visit?

19 A. I would say probably about an hour to an hour and a half.

20 Q. Right. What sort of times are we talking about as when you

21 arrived for the second visit and what time had you left by?

22 A. I would say, and, of course, I'm estimating now because --

23 Q. I'm not tying you -- don't think that there's any -- it's just

24 for information.

25 A. I think it was probably about 5.30 or 6.00 in the afternoon that

Page 1274

1 we got back there, and we would have left around 7.00, I would say.

2 Q. Yes. Returning, presumably, straight back to Knin or did you go

3 anywhere else after you'd left Grubori?

4 A. No. We went straight back to Knin. We generally tried to avoid

5 being on the roads at night-time.

6 Q. Yeah. On that second visit, at the time you were there, were

7 there any investigation authorities or any police there at the scene?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you got back to Knin that evening after the second visit,

10 did anyone report the matter to the Knin police?

11 A. I'm not sure. I suspect that we may have entrusted that

12 responsibility to our UN CIVPOL colleague, but I don't recall that I was

13 a participant in a report to the police.

14 Q. If you can remember his name, your UN CIVPOL representative on

15 this journey, can you remember that?

16 A. I think it was something like Romasev, a Russian individual.

17 Q. When you got back to Knin, did you report your further finding of

18 two further bodies to any other agency?

19 A. You mean a Croatian agency?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I don't believe we did so that evening.

22 Q. Right. In relation to that information concerning the two

23 murders, did you pass that on to anyone that evening?

24 A. Well, certainly, to UN colleagues, and that would have been it on

25 that evening. Again, I'm not sure if it was reported to the local police

Page 1275

1 by my UN CIVPOL colleague.

2 Q. Yes. The next day, the 26th of August, you didn't return to

3 Grubori as part of that particular visit; is that right?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. But did you acquire further information in the course of that

6 date from your UN colleagues as to their further findings?

7 A. Yes. That's when I learned that three more bodies had been

8 discovered.

9 Q. Yes. Can you recollect what time it was that you discovered

10 that? I'm looking at the bottom paragraph of P27 Exhibit.

11 A. I'm not sure exactly, but I would guess late morning.

12 Q. Right.

13 A. You know, of course, that morning we had no particular

14 expectation that there would be more bodies found.

15 Q. No. But there was a further visit back to Grubori by the UN in

16 relation to what they had found the previous date?

17 A. Right. And there was also a concern about the situation of the

18 people who were still living there.

19 Q. Yes. Yes. And that had, in fact, been the purpose of the

20 scheduled meeting on the previous day, the 25th.

21 A. That's right.

22 MR. KAY: Could we turn now, please, to 65 ter 4473.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes D57, marked for

25 identification.

Page 1276

1 MR. KAY: This is a Prosecution Exhibit, Your Honour.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I don't have the document yet

3 on the screen; and perhaps if Mr. Kay can indicate what tab, I could

4 follow on my hard copies.

5 MR. KAY: It's not a tab on the hard copy. It's a big document.

6 It's the Knin police station record book from -- for August 1995 during

7 the --

8 JUDGE ORIE: It's on our screen now.

9 MR. KAY: We have the front page. It's from the 6th of August,

10 1995.

11 Q. Do you see it, Mr. Flynn?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. During the uploading of this document, I was advised that it was

14 a big document and --

15 JUDGE ORIE: 234 pages.

16 MR. KAY: Yes. So we've put an extract in, Your Honour, but

17 anyone is welcome to look at anything else. I dare say that the whole of

18 the book will eventually go into evidence, but it was --

19 JUDGE ORIE: If that is the case then perhaps we --

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just take a moment.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, take a moment.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

23 MR. KAY: Can we move to the next page after this, and I can see

24 what the situation was in relation to the uploading of this document,

25 whether the whole document was done? They've done the whole document, so

Page 1277

1 can we go to page 59, page 59 of the document.

2 Q. What we are going to be looking at is the extract from the Knin

3 police station book, Mr. Flynn --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- for the 26th of August, 1995, and it's before you now. The

6 original handwritten version is on the right; translated typed version on

7 the left.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The book was handwritten by the operatives in the police station,

10 obviously. We will see, at point 193, under the date 26th of August,

11 1995, at the time of 1500, commander of the 1st police station, Milos

12 Mihic.

13 First of all, did you have meetings or dealings with Mr. Mihic,

14 who was the commander of the Knin police station?

15 A. I may have. I don't recall.

16 Q. Right. Name and family name of the employee who received report

17 on the incident. Someone named Begonja is listed who was probably the

18 station sergeant or officer for that day. We see a report on a body. He

19 reported verbally that information had been received, that in Plavno

20 village, Grubori hamlet, on 25th of August, 1995, two male bodies were

21 found: Milos Grubar, born 1915; and Jovan Grubar, 60 years of age.

22 A. Sorry. Would the "he" refer to Mr. Begonja?

23 Q. I would say it's Mr. Mihic actually, looking at this document and

24 having seen that Mr. Begonja is the recording officer, so it came from

25 Mr. Mihic.

Page 1278

1 A. I see.

2 Q. Others can, if they disagree with that, can advance a point, but

3 sometimes these things can be seen.

4 Then you will see a comment: "It was agreed with Chief Cedo

5 Romanic that an on site investigation would be conducted in the morning

6 of 27th of August, 1995. Civilian protection went to the scene at 1100

7 hours on the 27th of August, 1995, and removed the bodies." And we see

8 on the right the name Begonja.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. First of all, were you aware that this matter was advised to the

11 Knin police station by the commander, Mr. Mihic, on the 26th at 1500?

12 A. No, I wasn't aware of that fact.

13 Q. And by 1500, it would seem that the UN, at least, had known that

14 there were five bodies of murdered people in that village.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please check whether the -- what we see in the

19 original and what we see is the translation, is that the same page or is

20 that -- because for those who try to follow it --

21 MR. KAY: It doesn't look like it to me.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No. But if those who are following these

23 proceedings in the original language want to look at the screen, then

24 they see something quite different from what we are discussing in the

25 English version.

Page 1279

1 MR. KAY: Yes. In the Croatian document, you will need to put in

2 number 192 - we're on 189 - to get that page.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So three pages further down, from what I

4 understand.

5 MR. KAY: We're on the right page now, Your Honour, but we've

6 gone down.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that we are now approximately --

8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, in view of the question --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Zoom out so that those who want to follow it in the

10 original language can see approximately what we see in English.

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, with the Court's leave, I will leave

12 perhaps a couple of seconds for people just to digest that --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

14 MR. KAY: -- information.

15 Q. It's the reporting system to the civil police that I now want to

16 ask you about, Mr. Flynn. What was the procedure when you found a crime

17 during your research? During your tours of the region, what was to

18 happen, what was supposed to happen?

19 A. Well, actually, I'm recalling now that there was a special

20 professional relationship between UN CIVPOL and the Croatian police. I

21 think, yesterday, we discussed this practice whereby an important part of

22 the duties of UN CIVPOL was to actually work with the Croatian police and

23 monitor in a way what they were doing, and that was a regular line of

24 communication between UN CIVPOL and the Croatian police. So I'm quite

25 confident that UN CIVPOL would have referred this information to the

Page 1280

1 Croatian police station in Knin.

2 Q. Yes. It may be that the commander was advised by UN CIVPOL,

3 Mr. Mihic, and that's why he made this record at 1500.

4 A. I would think so.

5 Q. It may not be the time that the information got to him, but

6 that's the time it's recorded --

7 A. Right.

8 Q. -- to be fair to the system, perhaps. But there we have it. We

9 have two bodies recorded at that time.

10 If we go to the next page of the book, page 60, there are further

11 events recorded in the book, which we don't need to look at in detail on

12 this occasion, but it just shows how the book is compiled.

13 Then we go to page 61, incident 197 of Exhibit D57. And we see

14 at 197, 26th of August, 1995 at 2000, Croatian army officer Dondo Karolj?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Damir Vrkic who received report of the incident, and then we see

17 a short description of the report: "Report on bodies in Plavno village,

18 Grubori hamlet. There are five bodies of men and women who were killed

19 during military and police Operation Storm." And it was taken over by

20 Begonja.

21 And in the next paragraph, "Information on this will subsequently

22 be passed on to civilian protection officers for hygiene and sanitation

23 measures," 27th of August, 1995.

24 And we know now who Karolj Dondo is because you've told us he is

25 the liaison officer with whom you had dealings?

Page 1281

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. KAY: I have no further questions on that.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I don't think the witness quite

5 said that Karolj, Dondo was the person with whom the witness had dealings

6 with. It was suggested to the witness that the person he spoke to was

7 Karolj, Dondo on the 25th, and the witness agreed to that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's verify with the witness and see whether

9 that's --

10 MR. KAY:

11 Q. Mr. Dondo, we've rather looked at him in more detail now, and his

12 name and persona has come through in the last few days. You remember you

13 suddenly recollected when I put the name to you. He spoke English, not

14 fluently. You spoke to him on the 25th of August.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you remember now what his role was?

17 A. Well, as I say, he was often with General Cermak. I referred to

18 him as a deputy, but I meant that not in a formal sense but in the sense

19 that he was some sort of a senior assistant to General Cermak.

20 Q. There are documents that show his role in the Croatian army, so

21 don't worry about it.

22 A. Thank you.

23 Q. That deals with those questions that I wanted to -- no. Just a

24 few more questions I may be able to ask you about this. Did you go on

25 the 27th of August to Grubori? There were a large number of people that

Page 1282

1 visited on the 27th, and there was a film of it.

2 A. Yes. I don't believe I did.

3 Q. Did you go back to Grubori at all after the 25th? Yes, because

4 you looked at the bullet casing, didn't you?

5 A. That's right. It was something like the first week of September.

6 Q. That was ten days later?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was that your first visit back?

9 A. I think it was, yes.

10 Q. Okay. So I can't ask you any further about that.

11 MR. KAY: Turning now to a new subject, Your Honour, concerning

12 the reporting of matters in September of 1995 arising from Her Honour's

13 questions on Exhibit P38 while the evidence was given from the witness on

14 the first day.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Presidents, I just wish to point out that

16 I have no objections to the admission of the previous exhibit.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It was D57 and is therefore admitted into evidence.

18 That's the long report, the full 234 pages, police records.

19 Yes, please proceed.

20 MR. KAY: Thank you.

21 Could we bring up on to the screen 65 ter 2681.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D58, marked for identification, Your

24 Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

Page 1283

1 MR. KAY: This, again, is a document arising from the 65 ter

2 list, Your Honour. Can it formally be produced as an exhibit?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm waiting for Ms. Mahindaratne to report

4 whether there's any objection.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. Then D58 is admitted into evidence.

7 MR. KAY: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Again, we have almost all of the documents we see on

9 the screen is all draft translations which, of course, is of some concern

10 to me.

11 Could I earlier urge the parties to see whether we could get

12 final translations rather than draft translations or translations still

13 to be revised?

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.

16 Q. A criminal report on the 5th of September, 1995. I'm going to

17 look at a collection of criminal reports around just after this date

18 between the 5th and the 8th, and then look at a much bigger report,

19 Mr. Flynn, so it's for informative purposes concerning that issue that

20 was being raised.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. This criminal report from the 72nd police -- Military Police

23 Battalion of Knin. Page 2, reporting of a crime on the 2nd of September,

24 1995, we see at the top of the page, the crime of aggravated theft. At

25 the foot of the page, we see what that was, something to do with a steam

Page 1284

1 boiler and radiator, and on page 3 that he was stopped by the military

2 police. And in the middle of page 3, the conclusion by the commander,

3 Colonel Butimir, that there is reason to suspect that he committed the

4 act he has been charged with. So that criminal report was going to the

5 military Prosecutor's office.

6 A. I'm sorry. Was the subject of this described as a civilian or --

7 I didn't see the subject.

8 MR. KAY: On the first page, he's a soldier.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

10 MR. MISETIC: I apologise, Your Honour, for the interruption. I

11 just wanted to clarify that you had raised the issue of the draft

12 translation, and we would challenge the translation of the -- of that

13 last paragraph, because it is a little confusing to say -- if you could

14 bring me back to the English translation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: First page, last page?

16 MR. MISETIC: Second page, last paragraph.


18 MR. MISETIC: Obviously, from a legal perspective - the last

19 paragraph of the document, please - where he says, "Based ..." --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it might be.

21 MR. MISETIC: It says, "There is reason to suspect that he really

22 did commit the act for which he has been charged."

23 JUDGE ORIE: He's not been charged yet.

24 MR. MISETIC: Well, I think, in the Croatian, it really should be

25 translated more as, "There is reason to suspect that he committed the act

Page 1285

1 of which he stands suspected or accused."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

3 MR. KAY: Well, it's not my translation. It's the fact of the

4 report that we're looking at, Your Honour, but the concern over the

5 accuracy does remain.


7 MR. KAY: But I'm not relying on the content; it's the fact, as

8 the think the Court will see.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Misetic is emphasising or aligning that

10 there are -- that the final translation might be different from the draft

11 translation; therefore, we have to be very careful. At the same time,

12 you are not, at this time, focussing on the content of the report and the

13 details there.

14 MR. KAY: No.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'll let you finish this first report and then see

16 whether this is the way in which we should deal with it. It depends on

17 what the witness knows about it.

18 MR. KAY: Yeah. What I was going to do, Your Honour, was put in

19 a collection of reports that show a number of charges that have been

20 brought in the days before.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you expect that the witness has any knowledge

22 about that.

23 MR. KAY: No.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then why inform the witness, where apparently the

25 first thing which should be done is to inform the Court about these

Page 1286

1 matters? Is there any way, Ms. Mahindaratne, that you could agree that

2 you say, well, both parties agree that there do exist so many reports

3 dealing with theft of a steam boiler, so that we get a kind of a brief,

4 perhaps, attached to all of the reports, but that the Chamber is informed

5 about what Mr. Kay now through this witness apparently wants to establish

6 that police reports were made.

7 I'm not going any step further whether these police reports, what

8 the following-up has been, but just that such reports were made and that

9 we'll know whether it's about steam boilers, whether it's about trucks,

10 whether it's about hand-held rockets that were stolen, whatever.

11 MR. KAY: Exactly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: But that we get the information. Why do we need to

13 spend hours with the witness on this matter.

14 Mr. Mr. Kay, I'm addressing you, and addressing you,

15 Ms. Mahindaratne.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I did discuss this with

17 Mr. Kay yesterday; and even the documents that were tendered yesterday, I

18 believe can be tendered through a bar table motion simply because the

19 witness is not aware of most of these documents.


21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And there is no -- we do not contest most of

22 the documents.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber suggest to the parties that this set of

25 police reports are put in one bundle, that we get a cover page which says

Page 1287

1 number one, that place, that date, this is the suspicion; that is, in

2 this case, steam boiler and radiator being stolen. Then we don't have to

3 ask the witness whether he's aware of these reports, then he answers that

4 he's not aware of these reports, and then they are admitted into

5 evidence. There is a more effective, more efficient way of doing that.

6 Are you confident, Ms. Mahindaratne, and you, Mr. Kay, that in

7 this way, the Chamber could receive the evidence?

8 MR. KAY: Certainly, Your Honour, I was going to do this very

9 rapidly, and it was to assist the Bench because of the question a couple

10 of days ago. There is a document of at the end of this little collection

11 that I've got, which is 65 ter 2999, which is a report from the Zadar

12 Knin police station, police administration, for the attention of the

13 administration chief dated the 6th of September, 1995, which actually

14 outlines the murders that they say they investigated and other crimes.

15 And this was to illuminate this point in a quick way; and, of course, the

16 only way I have, when I'm here, is through a witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the traditional, I would say, common

18 law approach, which is not necessary. The Chamber is always open for

19 efficient other ways of receiving evidence, especially if there is no

20 challenge to the existence of those documents. I mean, if the witness

21 doesn't know anything about it, he can't tell us whether they are

22 authentic or not. He cannot tell us whether any follow-up was given,

23 whether the content was accurately reflecting what was the result of

24 investigations, but at least that these reports apparently were produced

25 at that time. I think we can do that without a witness.

Page 1288

1 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, in fact, as I suggested

3 yesterday to Mr. Kay, what I suggested was that we be served with the

4 documents that the Defence intends to tender in evidence, and I would

5 just agree to all those documents. But we still haven't got some of the

6 documents that Mr. Kay intends to tender into evidence this morning.

7 JUDGE ORIE: But if we are talking about the existence of police

8 reports on which Mr. Flynn could not give any further clarification, then

9 there are other and more efficient ways in getting that to -- into

10 evidence.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 MR. KAY: Can we just turn now to 65 ter 2261; tab 13.

14 Q. This, again, arises from that information given on the 7th of

15 September in the Exhibit P38, and concerns a statement by Mr. Cermak.

16 You can see it there: "There is no place for looters in the Croatian

17 army." And according to Colonel-General Ivan Cermak, commander of the

18 Knin assembly point: "A large scale operation has been launched to

19 resolve problems related to the illegal appropriation of apartments and

20 looting, torching homes, acts regrettably most often committed by members

21 of the Croatian army. Some ten warrants already been issued for

22 arresting and bringing before the Military Court in Split such soldiers

23 who, as General Cermak stated, defile the Croatian Army and have no place

24 in it."

25 Referring to a text published in a newspaper, under the headline

Page 1289

1 "Apartment Safari," General Cermak said that: "The claims in the text

2 were completely accurate but that the military and civil police units

3 have been strengthened so as to prevent illegal actions."

4 General Cermak also said that: "The commanders of the units of

5 those troops whose troops commit criminal offences also bear

6 responsibility."

7 That's as much as we need to bring out of that, and this was at

8 the time of your meeting on the 7th of September, Mr. Flynn.

9 A. I'm sorry. I'm not recall. Did I report on a meeting with

10 General Cermak on the 7th --

11 Q. Yes, P38.

12 A. That sounds entirely possible.

13 Q. You can look at the document, P38 page 3.

14 A. Oh, yes.

15 Q. You gave evidence about it?

16 A. That's right. I don't think I was at that meeting myself.

17 Q. Right.

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. It's in the HRAT report that you've produced, in which he refers

20 to having informed on a recent interview on Croatian television --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- and given statements condemning crimes.

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. KAY: That's all I ask about that. Your Honour, that

25 concludes my cross-examination because of the Court's sensible

Page 1290

1 suggestion.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

3 Mr. Kuzmanovic, Mr. Kay took even less time. I'm not asking you

4 to change your mind, but it's only fair, and if you say, I gave some of

5 my time to Mr. Kay, that if you would -- if you are trying to resolve a

6 problem which does not exist in the same way as it appears to exist

7 before, then if you would reconsider your position then we will then

8 consider that.

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We will not be having

10 any cross-examination.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, just to point out that the

14 previous document did not get a --

15 JUDGE ORIE: It did not get a number. That's the newspaper

16 article, Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D59, marked for identification, Your

18 Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, you wanted to tell us whether you

20 objected against it.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: D59 is admitted into evidence.

23 Mr. Misetic.

24 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could just point

25 out --

Page 1291

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Flynn, will you now be cross-examined by

2 Mr. Misetic who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.


4 MR. MISETIC: If I could just remark, Your Honour, that in light

5 of your instruction yesterday, I've narrowed down my cross, so we may

6 finish early. I just wanted the Court to be aware that we may actually

7 have extra time this afternoon, in light of that instruction.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We have no extra -- let me just check now what you

9 said because I might have missed a part of it.

10 MR. MISETIC: If I can clarify, Your Honour. Yesterday, you told

11 me to be ready to finish by the beginning of the second break, and I

12 suspect I will be finished by --

13 JUDGE ORIE: We are under less time restraints at this moment,

14 since the Chamber allowed the next witness to be called to go to another

15 place, because that witness is expected to testify on Monday.

16 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, we are a little bit less under time

18 restraint. At the same time, an exercise in efficient and effective

19 cross-examination is something that's always good for all of us.

20 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Flynn.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. I believe it's in your statement that you worked -- you came to

Page 1292

1 Croatia in 1994; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And at the time, you were working for Mr. Mazowiecki?

4 A. Yes. I was assisting him in his mandate. I wasn't working for

5 him directly.

6 Q. When you say, "assisting him in his mandate," how were you

7 assisting him?

8 A. Well, he was the Special Rapporteur for the Commission on Human

9 Rights, and he had a mandate to report to the UN commission on the human

10 rights and humanitarian law situation in the territory of the former

11 Yugoslavia. There were five or six international staff who were hired to

12 assist him in gathering facts throughout the region, and I was one of

13 those individuals.

14 Q. Would that be five or six staff for the entire former Yugoslavia

15 or just Croatia?

16 A. For the entire former Yugoslavia.

17 Q. Are you familiar with a Croatian military operation known as

18 Operation Flash, which took place in May of 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How are you familiar with that operation?

21 A. Well, I was also in Croatia when that took place, and I had

22 occasion to go to that area shortly after that operation.

23 Q. Did you participate in any interviews of Serbs who remained in

24 the territory of Western Slavonia after Operation Flash was completed?

25 A. I believe I did, yes.

Page 1293

1 MR. MISETIC: If I could ask Mr. Registrar to pull up 1D12-0051,

2 and highlight the first page.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, it would be number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D60, marked for identification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No objection, Ms. Mahindaratne?

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then it is admitted into evidence.


9 Q. Mr. Flynn, we'll blow this up a little bit, but I believe you can

10 see this is a report submitted by the Special Rapporteur, on 5 July 1995,

11 concerning the situation of human rights in the territory of the former

12 Yugoslavia.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you typically assist Mr. Mazowiecki in preparing these types

15 of reports?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. MISETIC: Could we go to paragraph 28, please.

18 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Flynn?

19 A. Yes. It would be helpful if it was a little larger, please.

20 Thank you.

21 Q. I'll read that out for the record at "During the first two ..."

22 This is now discussing Operation Flash, and it says, "During the

23 first two days of the military operation, as many as 10.000 people fled

24 from the Serb-held area of Western Slavonia, mostly from the Okucani

25 area, across the Sava River bridge, into northern Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 1294

1 The RSK authorities had previously held regular evacuation drills, and

2 there are reports that some of the refugees may have been forced into

3 leaving against their will."

4 If we could stop there for a moment.

5 Do you have any information as to how Mr. Mazowiecki came to the

6 information that the RSK authorities had previously held regular

7 evacuation drills?

8 A. I'm fairly sure he got that from members of my team. I don't

9 remember if I was involved in getting that information myself, but I was

10 responsible for monitoring the situation in that area. So we may well

11 have provided him that information.

12 Q. Do you recall the specific type of information that your team may

13 have had? Were they reports, documents, witnesses?

14 A. I'm afraid I just don't recall that. I notice that -- yeah. No,

15 I just don't recall.

16 Q. Then it continues on: "And there are reports that some of the

17 refugees may have been forced into leaving against their will."

18 Am I correct to say that from the context of the report, that

19 refers to RSK authorities forcing Serbs into leaving against their will?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you recall any reports -- let me rephrase that. Do you

22 recall any specific reports that you could recall for the Trial Chamber

23 concerning RSK authorities forcing Serbs to leave against their will?

24 A. I'm afraid I can't right here. I could perhaps do some research.

25 There may have been reports coming from other UN sources in northern

Page 1295

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm just not sure at this time what reports that

2 refers to.

3 Q. Okay. The paragraph goes on: "Subsequently, in negotiations

4 with UNPF," which is UN protection force, "and Croatian authorities, the

5 leaders of the RSK insisted that persons left behind, estimated at 3 to

6 4.000, be given the opportunity to leave Western Slavonia and join the

7 other refugees in the Serb-held territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The

8 United Nations acceded to this demand, and initiated the programme known

9 as Operation Safe Passage within the context of the Four Point Cessation

10 of Hostilities Agreement."

11 Do you recall a United Nations operation known as Operation Safe

12 Passage?

13 A. Yes, I do, not in all its details, but yes.

14 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what Operation Safe

15 Passage was?

16 A. I must say I don't feel I feel fully qualified to describe it

17 with any certainty. It's just been too long. I really wouldn't want to

18 make a mistake.

19 Q. Do you recall, generally, that it was an operation through which

20 the United Nations assisted in moving Serbs from Western Slavonia and

21 into Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. We can go on to the next paragraph: "Serbs still living in the

24 sector were advised of their right to remain, and the public assurances

25 of the Government of Croatia that their rights, including the right to

Page 1296

1 citizenship of the Republic of Croatia, would be fully respected.

2 Nevertheless, during the month of May, hundreds of Serbs from the Sector

3 West ..."

4 And Sector West is the area of Western Slavonia, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "... applied for inclusion in Operation Safe Passage. And by

7 early June, more than 2.000 had left for Serb-held territory in Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina. According to recent information, no more than 1.000

9 remain in the sector. Numerous observers have voiced concerns that the

10 operation was conducted in an unduly hasty manner and persons were not

11 adequately informed of their rights."

12 If we could stop there for a moment.

13 Do you recall any concerns that were voiced about Operation Safe

14 Passage?

15 A. Yes. I recall, generally, that those concerns were raised.

16 Q. Do you recall by whom?

17 A. I could only make a reasoned speculation that it might involve,

18 for example, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees or representatives of

19 NGOs, and some of -- but I'm just not sure who that reference is to, "the

20 numerous observers."

21 Q. Okay. If we can continue on then.

22 It goes on to say: "However, continuing demand for inclusion in

23 the exit convoys as late as mid-June suggest that most Serbs in Western

24 Slavonia were intent upon leaving under any circumstances. Intending

25 refugees interviewed by the Special Rapporteur's field staff indicated

Page 1297

1 that the main reasons for their wish to depart were the desire to join

2 relatives who had already fled and doubts about future prospects in

3 Croatia, especially the security situation and the likelihood of finding

4 work."

5 Mr. Flynn, were you one of the field staff that interviewed these

6 intending refugees referenced in that sentence?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And where did you hold these interviews?

9 A. In the area. We probably -- I mean, I know that we spoke with

10 Serb residents of Western Slavonia in that area, and I think in some

11 cases in their homes.

12 Q. And when you spoke to them, did you also indicate to them that

13 the government of Croatia was giving them assurances that their rights

14 would be protected if they stayed?

15 A. Yes, I believe we did.

16 Q. And what did these people that are indicated in this report as

17 "intending refugees, how did they when you advised them that the

18 government of Croatia was guaranteeing their rights?

19 A. Well, there was certainly skepticism about that and the people

20 expressed concern over their future prospects, and they did not trust

21 that the Croatian government would fully respect their rights.

22 Q. There was a fear among these refugees of the Croatian government;

23 is that fair to say?

24 A. Well, maybe not of the government, per se, but whether the

25 government could provide adequate protection.

Page 1298

1 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to turn to another topic now. I don't

2 know if the Bench has questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If we have questions --

4 MR. MISETIC: You'll let me know.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- don't worry, we'll let you know.

6 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. If I could turn now to Operation Storm. You were in Zagreb on

8 the 4th of August?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. MISETIC: If we could pull up, Mr. Registrar, 1D12-0083.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit D61, marked

13 for identification.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The UN document, I take it, Ms. Mahindaratne, that

15 there are no objections.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then D61 is admitted into evidence.


19 Q. Mr. Flynn, were you aware on the 4th of August that there had

20 been allegations that were in the public domain that the Croatian army

21 had shelled civilian areas in Knin on the 4th of August?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you aware of the statement that is now in front of you by

24 Mr. Carl Bildt, who you will recall was the representative of the

25 European Union at the time to the international conference on the former

Page 1299

1 Yugoslavia; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. I don't recall this statement in particular.

3 Q. You recall, generally, that Carl Bildt had issued a statement on

4 the 4th of August that: "It is difficult to see any difference between

5 the rocket attack by RSK forces on Zagreb in May and the shelling of Knin

6 which President Tudjman must now be held responsible for."

7 A. I really don't recall that I was aware of that statement at that

8 time, but I'm -- I have no doubt about the accuracy of this.

9 Q. Do you recall any reports shortly after the statement was issued

10 whereby the Croatian government declared Mr. Bildt to be personae non

11 gratae as a result of this statement?

12 A. No, I don't recall that.

13 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn, Mr. Registrar, to 1D12-0084.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D62, marked for identification, Your

16 Honour Your Honours.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: D62 is admitted into evidence.


20 Q. Mr. Flynn, this is an internal memo of the 7th of August from

21 Mr. Stoltenberg to the Secretary General at the time. It's dated the 7th

22 August, but the subject discusses a meeting with the Croatian foreign

23 minister, Granic, in Geneva on 6 August, 1995. And the participants in

24 the meeting, as you can tell from the first paragraph, were Mr.

25 Stoltenberg, himself; the Spanish minister, Solana; EU foreign affairs

Page 1300

1 commissioners, van den Broek; and Mr. Bildt?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to the next page, Mr. Registrar,

4 to the paragraph starting with foreign minister Solana's rebuke.

5 Q. It says that: "In their discussions with the Croatian foreign

6 minister," it says, "Foreign minister Solana crisply reiterated the EU

7 position deprecating Croatia's military actions, even as it was engaged

8 in talks, condemned the shelling of civilian areas in Knin, expressed

9 concern over the humanitarian situation, protested about the treatment of

10 UN troops, and handed over a formal protest from Denmark about the

11 treatment of its troops."

12 MR. MISETIC: If we can go on to the next section, Mr. Registrar,

13 and that first paragraph.

14 Q. "Granic was pressed to explain the shelling of civilian areas in

15 Knin and was told in no uncertain terms that that involved war crimes, a

16 matter falling within the province of the International Tribunal in The

17 Hague. Would the Croatian government cooperate with the Tribunal in

18 investigating the attacks on civilians? He did not answer directly, but

19 said that there had been three military barracks in Knin and that most of

20 the civilians had already fled the city before it was shelled. He was

21 told that his explanation did not stand up to the known facts."

22 From this document, and from your presence and subsequent role on

23 the 7th of August, I'd just like to ask you if you recall, before

24 entering Knin, that there was an expectation upon your arrival in Knin

25 that civilian areas in Knin had been shelled?

Page 1301

1 A. Yes. Whether there was an expectation, I'm not sure I'd go that

2 far, but I certainly considered that a possibility and that was one of

3 the things we wanted to look at.

4 Q. You were travelling with Mr. Akashi, am I correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you aware, on the 7th of August, that at the highest

7 political levels in the International Community, claims were being made

8 that the shelling of Knin was a war crime that would be investigated --

9 that may be investigated by this Tribunal?

10 A. I wasn't aware of that specific fact, but I know that there were

11 concerns raised at a high level and by the highest level officials about

12 the conduct of the military operation; and that, for example, was one

13 reason why I had such an interest in looking at the hospital, because

14 there had been concern expressed that the hospital may have been

15 targeted.

16 Q. What was the source of the information that the hospital had been

17 targeted?

18 A. I believe it was UN personnel on the ground.

19 Q. On the ground where?

20 A. In the Knin area.

21 Q. Any specific UN personnel?

22 A. I'm afraid I can't recall that.

23 Q. Prior to your trip to Knin with Mr. Akashi, do you know of anyone

24 who had independently gone into Knin to conduct an investigation?

25 A. I am fairly sure that our visit with Akashi was the first visit

Page 1302

1 by international observers, but I'm not 100 per cent sure of that.

2 Q. So when this international delegation told Croatian Foreign

3 Minister Granic that his explanation did not stand up to the known facts,

4 as far as you know, the known facts are from the UN peacekeepers in Knin?

5 A. Any and all UN personnel who were in Knin, yes.

6 Q. Now, when you arrived in Knin on the 7th, is it fair to say that

7 you were surprised by the lack of damage to the town?

8 A. I was surprised that there was less damage than I expected, yes.

9 There certainly was damage, but it did not seem to be extensive in Knin.

10 Q. And, in fact, you indicated just now that you were specifically

11 interested in the issue of whether the hospital had been shelled;

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you went to the hospital on that day?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what did you conclude after your trip to the hospital?

17 A. There did not appear to be significant damage there. I think

18 there was evidence of at least one shell explosion that had not caused

19 significant damage.

20 Q. Were you advised at any point in the day that there was an RSK

21 tank parked in front of that hospital?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who advised you of that?

24 A. I think there was a nurse at the hospital who told me that.

25 Q. Do you recall specifically what she told you?

Page 1303

1 A. That there was a tank that had been positioned near the hospital

2 that was firing outwards at the incoming Croatian forces.

3 Q. Would that have been on the 4th of August?

4 A. Maybe. I'm not sure exactly.

5 Q. In this delegation to Knin, you travelled with Mr. Akashi and,

6 forgive me if I mispronounce his name, Mr. Hubert Wieland?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Also in your delegation were journalists; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Journalists from the BBC?

11 A. I'm not sure.

12 Q. Journalists from Croatian TV?

13 A. I suspect so. There were quite a number of journalists.

14 Q. And upon your arrival, were you briefed by General Forand?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you briefed by anyone else? Let me be more specific. Were

17 you briefed any anyone else from UN personnel?

18 A. Not so much. The attention that day was, of course, focused on

19 Mr. Akashi, and he was the one who spoke with individuals we met.

20 Certainly, General Forand was concerned with speaking with Mr. Akashi and

21 not with me. I was just a mid-level UN official in his delegation.

22 Q. I'd like to show you two video clips from that day and see if you

23 recall the statements. These are reports from journalists who were with

24 you on that trip to Knin, and I'd like to see if you recall what the

25 journalist here is reporting.

Page 1304

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, are transcripts given to the booth.

2 MR. MISETIC: Yes, they are.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we do, as usual. I don't know what the speed

4 of speech will be there, but I'll follow the French translation whether

5 they can keep up. Of course, first of all, you have given a number not

6 yet to Mr. Registrar.

7 MR. MISETIC: 1D12-0091.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D63, marked

10 for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us would video transcripts in

12 the different languages would all be under that same number?

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar will check in the system how it's

15 uploaded. Meanwhile, we can continue.

16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

17 [Videotape played]

18 "But what is clear is that the Croatians are in control."

19 "Well, very much so, yes. Their flags are flying everywhere in

20 this town, which only 48 hours ago the Krajina Serbs regarded as their

21 capital. Now it's totally under the control of the Croatians. The UN

22 say that, as far as they can tell, the Croatians have been behaving with

23 discipline and in a correct fashion."

24 MR. MISETIC: If we could show the second clip then, this is from

25 the Croatian TV report of that same trip to Knin.

Page 1305


2 MR. MISETIC: This is, Mr. Registrar, 1D12-0092.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes D64, marked for

5 identification.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Foreign military observers are

9 credited in the Republic of Croatia have arrived in Knin today. Military

10 officers from the U.S., Japan, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland,

11 Slovakia, Great Britain, France, and Turkey were interested in the

12 current situation in the liberated Croatian city of Knin.

13 "They were first greeted at the UNCRO barracks in Knin by a

14 Canadian officer of by the name of Tymchuk, who informed them that it was

15 peaceful in Knin. He briefly commented on what he describes as a

16 surprising entry by the Croatian army into Knin. Tymchuk said there was

17 no major fighting, nor were any breaches of human rights.

18 "Approximately, 700 Serb civilians took refuge in the UNCRO

19 barracks where they are located now, and the Croatian authorities are

20 attempting to ensure them sufficient food and medicine. The military

21 envoys then visited the Knin hospital where they came across

22 approximately 20 patients, some of which were wounded members of the

23 Krajina paramilitary.

24 "The head of the hospital, Dr. Ante Viskovic, briefed them on the

25 current situation within the hospital and stressed that every doctor is

Page 1306

1 bound by an oath, obligating him to treat all patients regardless of

2 religious or national affiliation, or whether they are not civilians or

3 members of the army. The senior military officials proceeded to visit

4 the Knin fortress after which they continued on to visit Drnis."


6 Q. Mr. Flynn, you were also there on the 7th of August. Do you

7 recall UN personnel saying something to the effect that Croatian forces

8 were behaving professionally and in a correct manner?

9 A. I think there was a sense at that time in Knin that they were

10 doing so. I should point out that we got information from some of those

11 700 displaced persons which filled in the picture, so to speak; but on

12 that first day, the situation seemed relatively stable and under control.

13 Q. The 700 people were located in the UN compound; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So the UN personnel in Knin would have had access to those same

16 700 people; is that correct?

17 A. Well, I don't think there was any attempt at all to get

18 information or testimony from those individuals about what they had

19 experienced. That was one of the reasons we went to Knin on the 7th. As

20 far as I know, for example, the Canadian soldiers did not discuss with

21 those 700 individuals or any of them what they had seen in the previous

22 few days.

23 Q. But the Canadian soldiers would not have had to interview one of

24 the persons in the compound in order to say -- see massive fires going

25 on, for example; is that correct?

Page 1307

1 A. Well that's true. I'm -- I would disagree with what Major

2 Tymchuk is quoted as saying there, with respect to there being no human

3 rights violations; but the violations did not relate, as far as I know,

4 to extensively shelling of civilian areas. They were -- they took other

5 forms.

6 Q. In terms of your ability to move around town on the 7th, were you

7 able to travel through the town?

8 A. Well, no. On the 7th, we were just getting organised, and so our

9 only movement within the town was as part of Mr. Akashi's delegation.

10 Q. And in your visit to the hospital, did you find any signs of

11 violations to the rights of the patients in the hospital?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you find that, in fact, the Croatian government had allowed

14 Serb staff that had been there from before the 4th of August to remain if

15 they wished to remain in the hospital?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you find in your trip to Knin that some patients had been

18 evacuated from the hospital during the operation and taken to the UNCRO

19 camp?

20 A. I don't recall that.

21 Q. How much time did you spend in the UNCRO camp on the 7th of

22 August?

23 A. Well, I ended up spending the night there and quite a few nights

24 afterwards. So I think we arrived there, it was probably mid-afternoon

25 or so, and we didn't leave.

Page 1308

1 Q. Were you told that there was a wing of the camp where 35 people

2 were being given medical treatment because they had been removed from the

3 hospital during the operation?

4 A. I don't recall that.

5 Q. Mr. Flynn, you were kind enough to meet with investigators of the

6 Gotovina Defence earlier this year; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During the course of that interview, did you say that, from what

9 you know, the exodus of Serbs from the Krajina was "rather remarkably

10 organised"?

11 A. I'm not sure if I said that or not.

12 Q. Did you compare it to the exodus of Serbs from Kosovo years

13 later?

14 A. I may have done so, yes.

15 Q. What is the comparison, then, if any, between the exodus of the

16 Serbs from Krajina and the exodus of Serbs from Kosovo?

17 A. Well, when I say "organised," I meant that perhaps "orderly" is a

18 better word, in the sense that people were moving in one group along one

19 road toward an evident shared destination. There didn't seem to be, you

20 know, mass chaos and people running in different directions. Instead,

21 there was a convoy that was moving out of the region, and that was also

22 what we saw in Kosovo, that people evidently had considered this

23 possibility of some sort of military operation, and when it happened they

24 had likely already planned where to go and what to do.

25 MR. MISETIC: I'm conscious, Your Honour, of the need to take a

Page 1309

1 break, so I'm just going to finish this area in one or two minutes and

2 then we can take a break.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


5 Q. Just to follow up on that, Mr. Flynn, given your experience in

6 the former Yugoslavia, were there examples of flight that was not

7 organised or - let me quote you accurately, "orderly" - that was not

8 orderly?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. In my experience, not a great deal; but, for example, I know --

11 well, during the beginning of the conflict, the information I had was

12 that people leaving a certain zone did not do so in an orderly manner.

13 For example, in any of the former sectors, I'm sure that - I mean, I know

14 that - evacuations did not take place in this particular way.

15 But, of course, in 1995, the war had been a fact for several

16 years; and in this particular case, there was -- there were rumours that

17 the Croatian military would be attacking, and that also happened in

18 Kosovo, of course. So it was rather remarkable; and, certainly, the

19 reality that when these operations happened, the evacuations were quite

20 orderly, in the sense that everyone was moving together in one convoy, in

21 one direction.

22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That's all I have for now.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

24 We'll have a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00, but

25 not until I've asked the following question.

Page 1310

1 D63 and D64, two videos you've just shown, English transcripts

2 are uploaded. Of course we, always have the language of the accused as

3 well. Do you have any translation for those so that the accused have

4 access to it, because all the words are spoken in English so they can't

5 look directly at the video.

6 MR. MISETIC: No, Your Honour. We will provide one. The second

7 video was in Croatian, so I assume they were able to hear that one. The

8 first video we'll provide a B/C/S translation of.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we leave a decision on admission for the

10 time being. It may well be that the Prosecution has no problem of just

11 having an English version; but, of course, the Chamber has to look at the

12 public character of these proceedings as well. We will resume at five

13 minutes to 11.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, Mr. Misetic, I do understand

17 that a new translation replaces the old D31 translation, just for the

18 parties to know.

19 During the break, the Chamber gave some thought to very large

20 documents, such as the 234 pages of the police log. As matters stand

21 now, we leave it as it is. It could be that other pages, but many other

22 pages, perhaps a few other pages, will become relevant in the future.

23 Perhaps, the totality might gain some relevance. So, therefore, for the

24 time, we leave it as it is. But it could be that if it's just our focus

25 on a few incidents, that we might not need all these pages and we perhaps

Page 1311

1 could deal with the cover page. At the same time, there might be

2 authenticity issues as such were concerned.

3 We will consider that and the parties are also invited to

4 consider to what extent we need huge documents in their entirety or

5 whether we can deal with selected portions, given sufficient context not

6 to be misled by only that portion.

7 For the time being, we leave it as it is, but it takes an

8 enormous effort to have things printed out, if need be, to have materials

9 summarised for us, if need be. So, therefore, the parties are invited to

10 clearly look at what is relevant and what we might be able to do without.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Flynn, do you have a copy of your statement in front of you,

14 statements, I should say?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On page 13 --

17 A. Of my first statement?

18 Q. Yes. My number 34, which is the last sentence on that page,

19 says -- do you see that.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "Well, let's say, starting about the 14th or 15th of August,

22 there was a noticeable increase in the number of burnings of houses that

23 was taking place." The line goes on to page 14, line 1.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that still your recollection today, that the burnings started

Page 1312

1 to increase around the 14th or 15th?

2 A. Well, not really. Because when I reviewed my notes, I saw that

3 it was really around the 10th or 11th that we started to see quite a

4 number of burnings south of Knin. But on the 13th, we took the drive to

5 Benkovac, and that was when the previous number seemed way too low and it

6 became apparent that there were an increasing number. So I would say the

7 14th or 15th is maybe a little -- a day or two late to refer to a notable

8 increase in the number of burnings.

9 Q. Let me just ask you a preliminary question: When did you leave

10 Sector South?

11 A. It was about the 16th of September.

12 Q. Okay. On the next page of your statement, starting at line 3,

13 you say: "At that time, well after hostilities had ceased, I would say

14 that the burning was reaching its peak around maybe the 15th or 20th of

15 August."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. "At that time, it was an every day occurrence to see quite a

18 number of fires that had been set in different locations. The burning

19 started to wind down toward the end of the month; but, in fact, even into

20 the first couple of weeks of September, it was November to find a burning

21 structure in one place or another."

22 Is it still your testimony today that the burnings reached their

23 peak sometime around the 15th or 20th of August?

24 A. I would say so with respect to the entire area. What we saw

25 really toward the end of August and in early September was that more

Page 1313

1 specific areas were targeted. So, for example, I think it was on the

2 30th of August, I was on a team that travelled to Obrovac; and in the

3 Obrovac area, we saw something like 15 houses that were burning that day.

4 So, of course, the peak for Obrovac then would have been that day. But

5 in terms of the overall sector and the overall daily number of burnings,

6 it was probably around the 20th of August, yes.

7 Q. On page 17, line number 12 --

8 JUDGE ORIE: One clarifying question.

9 Mr. Flynn, you talk about the 14th, 15th, might have been a bit

10 early; 11, 12, or on from the 10th. I have to carefully look now. Now,

11 you started touring, as far as I understand, and perhaps in the beginning

12 even limited, on the 9th of August. What was your point of reference in

13 saying that it increased that much where you had not ample opportunity to

14 observe personally at any earlier stage?

15 THE WITNESS: Well, I was getting information from other UN

16 observers, of course, in the field, the military observers and others;

17 and it was around about the 14th or 15th that the high number of fires in

18 the Benkovac valley was known to me. So I was basing and I am basing my

19 assessment on, not only my own personal observations, but what I learned

20 from others as well.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So apart from more fires, it could also be more

22 reports of fires, to some extent.


24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.


Page 1314

1 Q. Actually, Mr. Flynn, if we could go to page 22, if we could deal

2 with that first, line 29.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were asked to give an estimate of the houses destroyed, and

5 your answer is: "When I mentioned the estimate of 500 houses destroyed,

6 I'm referring to houses that were destroyed in the couple of weeks or two

7 or three weeks after Operation Storm."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I understand the number is not intended to be a precise figure,

10 but is that the general number of homes you recall during the month of

11 August that had been burned?

12 A. Well, that's my own estimate, and I think I said somewhere else,

13 I have always tended to be conservative in these estimates because I'm

14 conscious that, by exaggerating, I would affect my own and others'

15 credibility. But when I gave this statement of 500, that seemed to me an

16 entirely realistic and, if anything, conservative estimate of the number

17 of buildings that had been destroyed by the end of the third week.

18 Q. Now, your -- the end of the third week of --

19 A. After Operation Storm.

20 Q. That would put us around the 28th or 29th of --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So, roughly, the end of August?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At some point, your HRAT teams had nightly meetings; is that

25 correct?

Page 1315

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As part of those nightly meetings, did representatives of the

3 UNMOs, the UNMOs, attend the meetings?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall anyone specifically from UNMO who would attend the

6 meeting?

7 A. May I refer to my notes?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Sorry. I'm having trouble locating that. All right. I remember

10 Colonel Sethsun [phoen] being quite involved in these meetings, and also

11 Colonel Ermolaev.

12 Q. Do you remember an UNMO by the name of Anttila?

13 A. I just don't remember.

14 Q. How about an UNMO named Mogulin [phoen]?

15 A. I'm afraid I don't remember.

16 Q. Did the UNMOs ever appear at an HRAT evening meeting and tell you

17 that they had counted, let's say, 11.000 burned houses?

18 A. No, not to my recollection.

19 Q. That number would have been something that you would have

20 remembered; is that correct?

21 A. I think so.

22 Q. Did they ever come back and say 16.000 houses?

23 A. I know that the UNMOs were conducting a survey, and I know that

24 their numbers were high. Again, as I say, when I refer to my own

25 estimate, my extent is to be on the conservative side. I don't recall,

Page 1316

1 though, any discussions with regard to those numbers while I was there,

2 those kinds of numbers.

3 Q. Let's discuss, then, what you would discuss at an HRAT meeting at

4 which UNMOs are present; and if though counted 11.000 homes, would that

5 not be something that would be discussed at an evening meeting of HRAT?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you're telling us, at least through your time, which is, I

8 believe, you said the 16th of September, no UNMO came to a meeting and

9 said, We've counted 11.000 burned houses?

10 A. I only recall, and I only reported on, the sightings that had

11 been made that day; and, yeah, I don't recall that we discussed any

12 information like you've described.

13 Q. You said, in terms of how you arrived at your number of 500, you

14 wanted to be conservative and you did not wish to exaggerate. In your

15 experiences in Sector South, were there any elements of HRAT that you

16 believe may have been prone to exaggeration?

17 A. No, not at all.

18 Q. The report that you refer to by UNMOs -- or the survey, I should

19 say, that was being prepared, was that being prepared for HRAT?

20 A. No, at least not when I was there. I've seen that survey

21 subsequently, but it was an exercise in which I was not involved.

22 Q. If they started doing the counting while you were still in the

23 field, and if it was to be someone from HRAT, would they have advised you

24 that they were doing such a survey under the auspices of HRAT?

25 A. Well, there was a little bit of a gap between what the HRATs did

Page 1317

1 and what the UNMOs did. The UNMOs, the military observers, I would say,

2 stuck fairly close to their own terms of reference. They participated in

3 the HRATs, but not really as full-fledged human rights monitors, let's

4 say. They had their own responsibilities, and they had their own method

5 of reporting. So I think, in a way, they would have favoured their own

6 reporting lines and reporting methods, and their involvement in the HRATs

7 was not as sustained as their implementation of their own mandated

8 activities.

9 Q. Their mandated activities, as far as you know, would have been

10 what is the Saranic/Akashi agreement; is that correct?

11 A. Well, I think so, but I'm not recalling all the terms of that

12 agreement off the top of my head. But the UNMO's primary responsibility,

13 of course, was monitoring military activities, and they travelled more

14 extensively than we did on their own. I would say there was a certain

15 reluctance on the part of many of the UNMOs to share all of their

16 information liberally with others, including a Human Rights Action Team.

17 I think they felt -- the majority of them felt that they had really a

18 separate mandate; and, as I say, their involvement in the Human Rights

19 Action Teams was, in a way, rather informal.

20 Q. If I could turn back now to page 17 of your statement.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, would you allow me. You're referring

22 to page 22, where it reads, "When I mentioned that estimate of 500

23 houses," could you assist me in finding exactly where these 500 houses

24 were mentioned before? Yes, I see it on line 29, "but when I mentioned

25 that estimate of 500 houses," seems to refer to an earlier mentioning of

Page 1318

1 the 500 houses.

2 THE WITNESS: I seem to recall that there wasn't a previous

3 mention.

4 JUDGE ORIE: There wasn't?


6 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, I was trying to understand exactly,

7 on the basis of your earlier mentioning these 500 houses, to find out

8 exactly what was the basis of your estimate. Did you just gain an

9 impression when you were touring, or did you do some systematic approach?

10 I mean, could it be, let's just assume, that you visited 50 villages and

11 that you may have missed another 60 villages?

12 I am asking how systematic the investigation, or at least the

13 collection of data, which was at the basis of this conservative estimate

14 of 500 houses?

15 THE WITNESS: With respect to my own activities, I have to say

16 that I did not undertake a systematic effort to count the number of

17 burned buildings, and so this estimate is a personal estimate. I was one

18 individual, the only representative of the Centre For Human Rights there;

19 and I did not, in fact, engage in an effort to systematically count the

20 number of burned buildings. This was actually something for which UNMOs

21 would have been much better suited, since they had several vehicles on a

22 daily basis all over the sector.

23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Also because you referred to there was kind of

25 project by the UNMOs to -- I don't know exactly what you said. Perhaps

Page 1319

1 you --

2 MR. MISETIC: A survey, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a survey. So it was an impression which you

4 gained, during that period, not on the basis of a systematic research and

5 systematic counting or a systematic visiting of all of the villages.

6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I could just, before he answers the

7 question, I found the earlier reference. It is page 21, and it starts at

8 line 17.

9 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. I was mistaken. Sorry.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it doesn't appear in numbers, that's the

11 difference. I see that and let me then read it again. It says, "at

12 least," yes.

13 Yes. Thank you. It doesn't give much information about the

14 method used. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Flynn.

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, could the witness respond to

17 the question from the Bench, the last question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps that's, more or less -- Mr. Flynn.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: At line 53 -- page 53, line 1.

20 JUDGE ORIE: My question which was, more or less, summarizing

21 what I understood your answer was. So it was an impression which you

22 gained during that period, not on the basis of a systematic research and

23 systematic counting or a systematic visiting of all of the villages.

24 That was my question, whether I well understood your testimony in

25 this respect.

Page 1320

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Your Honour, I may have been aware that the

2 UNMOs were engaging or about to engage in this systematic counting

3 exercise, but I really don't recall that and I didn't get the results, as

4 far as I recall.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.


7 Q. Can you think of any reason, Mr. Flynn, why UNMOs would count

8 11.000 burned houses and then not advise the evening HRAT meeting of that

9 number?

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object to that question, Mr. President. The

11 question presupposes --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Speculation. Well, I think, Mr. Misetic, that the

13 matter has been dealt with already when you talk about these meetings,

14 where you said this would have been discussed. The witness said he

15 didn't remember that number, but he did remember that they had larger

16 numbers. So now to further speculate on reasons, unless there is any

17 specific --

18 MR. MISETIC: Just, Your Honour, if we could get an understanding

19 of the nature of the HRATs, because it's my understanding that the UNMOs

20 were, in fact, one of the components of HRAT and under the

21 Saranic/Akashi, it specifically says: "UNCRO human rights elements plus

22 UNMOs will be doing the human rights reporting." So I just think it's

23 unusual that UNMO would not pass that number on, at least to his

24 recollection, and I believe he's testified that he would have recalled a

25 number of that size. And just to explore, given his experience --

Page 1321

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But he has answered most of these questions.

2 MR. MISETIC: I'll move on.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


5 Q. Mr. Flynn, earlier in your testimony, I believe on direct

6 examination, you mentioned that on the 4th of September, you came across

7 two soldiers whom you believe to have been members of the 4th Split

8 Brigade sitting in a village where a house was on fire nearby; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes. Two buildings, I think, were on fire nearby.

11 Q. Did you happen to know at that time where the 4th Guards Brigade

12 was actually deployed on that day?

13 A. I don't believe so, no.

14 Q. Did you see tanks in the vicinity of the village?

15 A. I don't recall that, no.

16 Q. Armoured vehicles?

17 A. There was some kind of transportation, but I don't recall whether

18 or not they were armoured vehicles.

19 Q. Could it have been civilian transportation?

20 A. It could have been.

21 Q. Any military operation underway that you could determine?

22 A. Well, our access to that area to the Plavno Valley had been

23 restricted in the previous days because, apparently, there was some sort

24 of a so-called clean-up operation against RSK fighters still in the

25 hills, and so there may have been some greater military presence.

Page 1322

1 Q. I'm asking you: On that day, was there sounds of gunfire or

2 other visible or audible evidence that there was a military operation

3 taking place?

4 A. No, not on that day.

5 Q. Just as a background question, I've been passed a note: Were

6 there any areas in Sector South that UNMOs patrol that HRAT teams could

7 not patrol?

8 A. I think there were, mainly because -- in fact, I'm quite sure

9 they were. We relied on UNMOs, to a large extent, on a question of land

10 mines, and we were very wary of travelling on small dirt roads. I think

11 the UNMOs had a greater capacity to assess the risk and to move into

12 areas that we wouldn't have covered.

13 Q. Can you think of any specific places that you were unable to gain

14 access to?

15 A. Well, there were some areas that we were blocked from getting

16 into at the end of August and early September, as I say, when there were

17 these activities along the eastern side of the former sector at the

18 border with Bosnia.

19 Q. But let me stop you there. Were you aware that there was armed

20 conflict taking place in Bosnia at the time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you aware that Croatian forces were involved in the armed

23 conflict there Bosnia at the time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the area that you were's talking about, was that the access

Page 1323

1 point through which Croatian army forces entered and exited Bosnia at?

2 A. Well, I didn't really know that.

3 Q. Was that your understanding at the time?

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. The witness has said

5 that he doesn't know about it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But even if you don't know, sometimes you can

7 understand certain information in a way which does not establish full

8 knowledge but, at the same time, give an impression. So, therefore, the

9 witness can answer the question.

10 THE WITNESS: I just didn't know of -- I had no knowledge as to

11 whether or not the Croatian forces were actually entering Bosnia. I

12 didn't know about that.

13 But if I could answer your previous question, it occurs to me

14 that the UNMOs, as part of their possibility, were supposed to monitor

15 military activities of the parties; and, in that respect, they probably

16 went a lot closer to areas where there might have been some military

17 activity than certainly we would have, as part of the HRAT.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question, more or less, was that when

19 you received the information that you had no access, whether you in any

20 way, in that information, that you perceived something which might give

21 you a clue to not getting access because military activity aiming at

22 participation in an armed conflict across the border was the reason why

23 no access was given.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think that reason was given, particularly

25 for lack of access to the road to Donji Lapac, which was more or less

Page 1324

1 parallel and close to the border with Bosnia.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But this is now your reconstruction at this

3 moment. At the time, was there, apart from, well, the type of

4 restriction imposed, was there anything else at that moment which made

5 you think, Well, that's because they might participate in armed conflict

6 across the border?

7 THE WITNESS: Was there anything else that made me think that?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, for example, they said, Don't go there; it's

9 too close to the Bosnian border or whatever.

10 THE WITNESS: Well, on the 12th of August, I was with General

11 Forand as he drove up the road to Donji Lapac, and I saw the Croatian

12 military firing into Bosnia. I knew that that was an area of conflict,

13 certainly, and that road was not always accessible to us and the reason

14 given was that there were military activities taking place.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.


18 Q. I'd like to go back to that incident with people you believe may

19 have been members of the 4th Guards Brigade. Did you report that

20 incident to the Croatian Military Police.

21 A. I believe we reported that, again, to General Cermak's office.

22 Q. Did you report it to the commander of the 4th Guards Brigade?

23 A. No.

24 Q. There's a little confusion in preparing for this

25 cross-examination; so, hopefully, you can clarify it for me. Who was the

Page 1325

1 person who was, let's call it the chain of command of HRATs, the most

2 senior person for HRATs in Sector South?

3 A. I guess that was me.

4 Q. Okay. And you would report to whom?

5 A. I reported really to our office in Zagreb.

6 Q. Any specific person that you would report to?

7 A. Mr. Wieland was the head of our mission in Croatia; so,

8 technically, I reported to Mr. Wieland.

9 Q. And Mr. Wieland was part of what?

10 A. He was the representative of the High Commissioner for Human

11 Rights in Croatia; and in terms of seniority, he was the senior human

12 rights officer in Croatia and he was the head of our office.

13 Q. Was that office part of UNCRO?

14 A. No. We had sort of an unusual arrangement. Obviously, we were

15 all the working for the UN, but we were independent but we relied in

16 large part on the logistical support of UNCRO.

17 Q. Did you have an UNCRO ID?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did all members of HRATs have UNCRO ID?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MISETIC: If I could next turn to page 32.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you where, apart from having an UNCRO

23 IDs, did you have your own IDs at all next to that or.


25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

Page 1326


2 Q. Let me ask you the question again based on your experience in the

3 former Yugoslavia. Destruction of religious sites, in your experience,

4 was that a common trait in ethnic cleansing campaigns, if I can call it

5 that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you have any opinion as to why religious sites would be

8 destroyed?

9 A. I think there is symbolism and the emotional harm, if you will,

10 that it would cause to those who use those sites.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to page 32 of the statement,

13 line 22.

14 Q. "One thing that was striking at this time, however, was that the

15 Croatian authorities were apparently paying special attention to

16 religious sites, to Serb religious sites, and revisited the church and

17 monastery at Krka. There were dozens -- there were some dozen Croatian

18 soldiers stationed there protecting the place, and they let us go in.

19 They stayed with us. They didn't let us go up to the second floor.

20 "They said that they had found a weapons cache up there and they

21 couldn't be sure the area was safe, but the monastery basically seemed to

22 be in good condition and the artefacts inside were being protected. So

23 this measure of protection for a religious site was rather striking,

24 particularly compared to the apparent lack of protection that Kistanje

25 was getting."

Page 1327

1 MR. MISETIC: I'm just going to wait for the translation.

2 Q. In this portion of your statement, I believe you're referring to

3 one Serb religious site, the monastery at Krka; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What about other Serb religious sites throughout Sector South,

6 did you note whether there was destruction of Serbian religious sites in

7 Sector South during the time you were there?

8 A. I didn't include reference to that in my reports, and my

9 recollection is I don't particularly recall that there was damage

10 particularly to other Serb religious sites.

11 Q. When we say "religious sites," we mean churches, monasteries. Is

12 there anything else that you mean by that term?

13 A. Although -- I mean, it's hard to say because some of the towns

14 had quite a bit of destruction, and it could have been that a church had

15 been burned down and I couldn't tell that it was a church or not. But I

16 didn't note in particular the destruction of other Serb religious sites.

17 Q. But if I can raise it this way, if there was a systematic

18 campaign to target Serb religious sites, would that have been something

19 that would have made its way into one of your reports?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MISETIC: If I could turn next to page 20, number 16.

22 Q. In this paragraph, you discuss an incident that came to your

23 attention on the 12th of August related to a pair of murders which took

24 place in Knin.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1328

1 Q. It says: "A patrol had been contacted by a local resident, a

2 woman who was in Knin, and I went out on the call with a couple of other

3 UN colleagues, including, I remember, Mr. Roberts."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "When we got to the scene, which was not far from the centre of

6 Knin, the neighbour, a woman, told us she had reason to believe that

7 there were some corpses in the house next to hers. We went into the

8 house, and we found two dead bodies of older men. They were quite

9 decomposed, and it appeared that they had been shot in the head where

10 they were sitting. They were sitting in the living-room -- no, excuse

11 me. One man was sitting in the living-room, and one was -- I'm trying to

12 recall. I think one was on a bed in the bedroom."

13 Then it goes on.

14 MR. MISETIC: If I could pull up, Mr. Registrar, 1D12-0113.

15 Q. If I could ask you while that's being pulled up, do you recall

16 whether UN CIVPOL was also at this scene?

17 A. I'm sure they were.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit D65, marked

20 for identification.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


23 Q. As you can see this is an UN CIVPOL report from the 25th of

24 August, 1995, which is the date that you reference in your statement.

25 Then towards the middle there, it says: "The two monitors visit

Page 1329

1 the place and saw the two bodies on the first floor: One in the kitchen

2 sitting in a chair, this was an old man; the other one on the floor in a

3 room to the left close to the window.

4 The window was opened and it," the word there is "science," but

5 it should be "seems," "that the man tried to escape. Because of the long

6 time, it was impossible to see how the two men died. CIVPOL monitors

7 called for civilian policija, and a special team came to the spot and

8 took care of the bodies."

9 MR. MISETIC: Then we'll move to two other documents, Your

10 Honour, with respect to this incident. These have already been admitted

11 into evidence and are D7. These are autopsy reports on these two

12 individuals. If Your Honour wishes, I believe we went through this in

13 the examination of the first witness. If the Court wishes, I can show

14 him the names and how they relate to the numbers.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you have any difficulty.

16 MR. MISETIC: If there's no objection, I would just rather go

17 straight to the document to save time.

18 Q. The first autopsy report, if you look at the third paragraph,

19 Mr. Flynn, it says: "The only ante-mortem injury identified to the bone

20 was a single fracture of the left 10th rib laterally, without any special

21 characteristics whatsoever. Its significance was uncertain. In the

22 absence of any soft tissues and any pathology or significant trauma, the

23 cause of death remained undetermined. No other significant findings were

24 made."

25 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could show D8.

Page 1330

1 Q. In the third paragraph, second sentence: "There were no fresh

2 injuries of ante-mortem or peri-mortem nature."

3 Then the fourth paragraph: "The cause of death is unascertained

4 anatomically."


6 Then if we could go back to the first document -- D65, marked for

7 identification. That is the CIVPOL report from that day.

8 Q. In your statement, at line 22: "They were quite decomposed, and

9 it appeared that they had been shot in the head where they were sitting."

10 A. I'm sorry. What page is that?

11 Q. Page 20, line 22.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see a bullet wound to the head on these two individuals?

14 A. I saw what I believed to be a bullet wound in the head of the

15 individual who was seated; but, of course, I'm not a pathologist, so I

16 couldn't swear that that's what it was.

17 Q. Well, if you saw a bullet wound to the head, were you discussing

18 the incident with the UN CIVPOL team that was there as well?

19 A. Yes, I'm sure we were.

20 Q. Where in the head did you see the bullet wound?

21 A. I'm afraid I can't recall that.

22 Q. If you were --

23 A. I think there might be a photograph of this individual, but I

24 don't have it.

25 Q. Well, if you were discussing this, do you have any explanation

Page 1331

1 for why the UN CIVPOL report would say, "Because of the long time, it was

2 impossible to see how the two men died."

3 A. No, I have no explanation. I'm not sure why they would say that,

4 but I would tend to credit the views of police officers.

5 Q. Meaning UN CIVPOL?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So as between your account and UN CIVPOL's account, you would

8 credit the UN CIVPOL account?

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I think that's a matter for

10 the Trial Chamber, not to ask the witness to weigh one version against

11 the other.

12 MR. MISETIC: It's his own --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Finally, I do agree with you, Ms. Mahindaratne, that

14 it's the Trial Chamber that will have to decide. But if someone has made

15 some observations, if they are put in a statement, and if that witness is

16 then -- if it's then put to the witness that there are other

17 observations, including autopsy reports, then it's not inappropriate to

18 ask the witness that in view of all this material, how - and that's, of

19 course, what the core of the question is - how certain the witness is

20 that his observation which is of a technical nature is accurate. I

21 understand that this witness now tells us that in view of what the others

22 say, that he does not exclude for the possibility that it's inaccurate.

23 That's how I understood the line of questioning.

24 MR. MISETIC: There is no need to --

25 JUDGE ORIE: However, there is another matter, Ms. Mahindaratne.

Page 1332

1 Usually, if someone is shot in the head, it's my experience, although I'm

2 not an expert in this field, that this usually leaves traces on the

3 scalp. Usually, entry wounds and exit wounds are visible. I would not

4 exclude for the possibility that you can shoot someone through the head,

5 for example, through the eye, and then somewhere leaving. But that's not

6 what you usually find.

7 Where this witness says that there may have been photographs or

8 that he even thinks that there were photographs made, in order to finally

9 enable the Chamber to make the right determinations, apart from having

10 this statement of this witness and his testimony today, and apart from

11 having autopsy reports, and apart from having this police report,

12 photographs might assist us in finally making such determination.

13 So whether it would be in favour of or against you, I don know;

14 so, therefore, I'm addressing both parties to see whether these

15 photographs can be retrieved, so that the Chamber has an additional

16 instrument to make the determinations it will have to make.

17 MR. MISETIC: Just for the record, Your Honour, Mr. Kehoe advises

18 me that we have, in fact, looked through the materials that have been

19 produced to us, and there is no photograph that we know of that has been

20 produced in the case thus far.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, we can ask the witness.

22 You said, "I think photos were made." Do you have any

23 recollection of who would have made those photographs or who would

24 usually do that under those circumstances?

25 THE WITNESS: I would think that Mr. Roberts may have. He often

Page 1333

1 carried a camera with him, Alun Roberts.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You mean that these might have been a kind of

3 private photographs, not professionally taken but for personal purposes.

4 THE WITNESS: Well, I wouldn't characterise it that way,

5 necessarily; but he's, you know, a media officer for the UN.


7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, perhaps in consultation with

9 Mr. Misetic, but the Chamber would very much like to know whether, what

10 the witness just told us, that Mr. Roberts might have such photographs,

11 whether that is the case or not.

12 I don't know, I take it that you will find a way in how to

13 address Mr. Roberts to see whether this additional piece of information

14 could become available for the Chamber.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I note that, Mr. President.

16 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Flynn, I'd like to turn next to the issue of reception

20 centres. I'd like to show you a document and ask you if you agree with

21 the findings in it.

22 MR. MISETIC: The document, Mr. Registrar, 1D12-0016. If you

23 could turn the page, please, the next page.

24 Your Honour, it will take a moment. I believe this is a large

25 exhibit, and I will have to find the right page.

Page 1334

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It doesn't seem that there's much conclusions

2 there.

3 MR. MISETIC: Just keep flipping through the pages,

4 Mr. Registrar, and I'll tell you when to stop.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, there are 35 pages so it might take

6 quite a while.

7 MR. MISETIC: Actually, I have a copy here on my screen, Your

8 Honour, so I'll find it faster. Page 3, Mr. Registrar, the first full

9 paragraph.

10 Q. This is a U.S. government report provided to the Office of the

11 Prosecutor. It's dated 14 August 1995.

12 The fifth line down in that first full paragraph, it reports:

13 "Roughly 500 Serbs remain at the United Nations Headquarters compound in

14 Knin. Another 250 are located in a camp run by Croatian police in a

15 school. None of the Serbs who spoke with us complained of mistreatment

16 by Croatian authorities, and GOC," which I believe is shorthand for

17 government of Croatia, "civil authorities have taken great pains to

18 demonstrate publicly their commitment to protect Serbs and Serb property.

19 "Poloff observed, however, isolated attempts to intimidate and

20 humiliate remaining Serbs. Many Serbs expressed fear of remaining in a

21 Croatian state; although, several from small villages and the countryside

22 said they did not intend to leave their land."

23 Mr. Flynn, is it correct to say that the -- there was no evidence

24 of mistreatment of Serbs in the school reception centre in Knin?

25 A. As far as I recall, there were no complaints of mistreatment

Page 1335

1 there by those who were staying there for purposes of shelter. I think

2 there was an issue later when persons accused of participation in the

3 conflict were held in a slightly separate area as POWs, essentially.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you introduced this document, and you

5 said that the witness would be invited to see whether he shared the

6 conclusion of that document.

7 The document does not draw the conclusion you later phrased, at

8 least that there's no evidence of the document saying that there are no

9 complaints. The experience in this Tribunal has learned that not always

10 the fact that someone who remains in a place where it's still to be seen,

11 whether he remains there voluntarily or not, that if he does not complain

12 about the treatment, that not automatically means or could not be

13 understood as clear evidence of no ill treatment.

14 I would not have raised the issue if you would not have told the

15 witness that you would ask him to join or not to join a conclusion. That

16 is a conclusion now mixed up the observations in the report, and the

17 conclusion you put to the witness are not exactly the same.

18 MR. MISETIC: I'll rephrase it, Your Honour.

19 Q. Did any Serbs in the school complain to you about mistreatment

20 during your visits to the school?

21 JUDGE ORIE: The witness had already seen different, so he

22 started his answer by saying, They did not complain. So I was commenting

23 object your question. The witness understood apparently well what he

24 read.

25 MR. MISETIC: Very good.

Page 1336

1 Page 2 of that document from the middle to the bottom -- I'm

2 sorry, paragraph 4 of the document, Mr. Registrar.

3 Q. It says: "All remaining Serbs in Knin were in two locations:

4 The United Nations compound or the GOC-controlled camp at the local

5 school."

6 Is that an accurate statement, Mr. Flynn?

7 A. This is dated August 9th, right.

8 Q. I believe it's the 14th.

9 A. Well, there were a few Serbs in Knin itself, but not very many.

10 Q. The majority, though, were in one of the two camps?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. "There were almost no military-aged men among them." Is that

13 accurate, in terms of the people in the two camps, there were almost no

14 military age men among them?

15 A. So now we're talking about the military compound and the school?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I'm not so sure. I seem to recall that there were -- well, there

18 were certainly military age men at the UN compound, and I think there

19 were a small number at the school as well.

20 Q. The next paragraph: "The UN camp held about 500 Serbs. Most

21 were sleeping outdoors under plastic, although some (particularly women

22 with small children and the infirm) were sleeping in the basement of the

23 UN building."

24 Is that an accurate statement of the conditions in the UN camp

25 around the 14th of August?

Page 1337

1 A. I believe so.

2 Q. "UN officials say the refugees were receiving the same food as

3 the UN troops: A very basic meal, two times a day. Potable water was

4 scarce."

5 Are those accurate statements?

6 A. I'm not so sure about that. I really couldn't say.

7 Q. Which part of the statement are you not sure about?

8 A. Well, I'm not sure if the refugees were getting two meals a day

9 and I don't recall a problem with potable water, but there are others who

10 would be far more knowledgeable about the actual living conditions of the

11 refugees in the UN camp.

12 MR. MISETIC: Okay. If we could turn to page 5 of this exhibit,

13 Mr. Registrar, second paragraph.

14 Q. "Conditions at the GOC-controlled camp were better, where about

15 250 Serbs were living in a school gymnasium. All had a roof over their

16 heads, and most had mattresses."

17 Is that accurate?

18 A. Yes, I believe so.

19 Q. "GOC officials had provided them with three meals a day and had

20 trucked in sufficient water."

21 Do you know if that statement is accurate?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. "As Poloff was visiting the camp, some of the Serbs were told

24 that they were free to return to their homes."

25 Do you know if Serbs in the school were being told that they

Page 1338

1 could return to their homes?

2 A. That sounds correct. I think all Serbs at both facilities were

3 being told that, if they wished and once they had obtained a propusnica,

4 they could leave the facilities.

5 Q. So they were detained there; is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Then it goes on and says: "The camp administrator said that he

8 believed that all the inhabitants would be released by August 15th." Did

9 that happen that all the school inhabitants left on August 15th?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How long did they stay in the school?

12 A. I'm not exactly sure of the fluctuation of the population there.

13 My recollection is that there were always at least some inhabitants at

14 the school; and a couple of weeks later, of course, we were interested in

15 moving some of the people at the UN camp into the school because of the

16 overcrowding at the UN camp.

17 Q. Okay. The last sentence says: "A UN human rights monitor told

18 Poloff that he had received reports that 40 military age men had been

19 taken from the camp on August 10 to Zadar for additional processing."

20 Do you believe you may be the human rights monitor referred to

21 there?

22 A. Yes, I may well be.

23 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could now show another video.

24 Sorry, Your Honour. I'm advised that I need to ask for a number

25 for this document that we're looking at, and to ask whether it can be

Page 1339

1 tendered into evidence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then first see what it is because we -- it

3 seems to be a U.S. report.

4 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I will propose that we mark it for

5 identification, and then I will just submit the documents, the three or

6 four pages of documents that we've looked at today, because as you are

7 aware, I believe there's 34 pages all told.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You don't need the other ones.

9 MR. MISETIC: No, I don't, at this moment.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that you select the pages and the

11 cover letter --

12 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- which seems to indicate what we find there, and

14 that a section you have used, and we give that one exhibit number.

15 MR. MISETIC: That would be fine, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That would be perhaps easier for Mr. Registrar,

17 rather than to work with three or four.

18 MR. MISETIC: That would be fine, Your Honour.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. That becomes Exhibit D66,

20 marked for identification.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, is there already an opinion

22 about --

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: D66 is admitted into evidence on the basis of the

25 selection to be made by Mr. Misetic.

Page 1340

1 Mr. Misetic, I think you were about to give a number to

2 Mr. Registrar for the video to be played.

3 MR. MISETIC: Yes. It's 1D12-0015.

4 Q. Mr. Flynn, I'm about to show you a portion. This is dated 9

5 August 1995. It is a video of your visit to the school. It's a portion,

6 I believe, of your visit to the school. I'd just like you to take a look

7 at it, and I'll ask you some questions about it?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, transcripts are provided to the booth.

9 MR. MISETIC: Yes, they are, Your Honour.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Do you know how many people are

12 located here?

13 "They are from all over, Benkovac, Subrovac [phoen], Drnis, Knin,

14 mostly from Knin, and the surrounding villages. Some of are them are

15 from Gobovic [phoen], as well. You take a look at the list. It is very

16 precise. Basically, they come from all over to register themselves and

17 to get food, to report themselves.

18 "The documents they can get only here, and the documents can only

19 be obtained here?

20 "Yes, here, and probably I'm not sure whether issuing any at the

21 UN camp. Yes, they were over there and over there.

22 "How long will it take the time to make one pass for these

23 people? What is the time?

24 "For a pass, this depends; but generally in a very short period

25 of time. If somebody came this morning, he will get a pass this

Page 1341

1 afternoon.

2 "Is anyone saying they are afraid to leave this place? Is anyone

3 afraid to leave from here?

4 "No, no. They can't wait to get to their homes. They have cows,

5 live stock. They are hardly waiting to go to their homes because they

6 have cattle:

7 "Have you been interviewing them? Are you interviewing them?

8 Did you go and talk to them?

9 "We were here last night, and there were about 40 men here.

10 "Have they left?

11 "They heard that 40 men arrived here last night.

12 "Have they already left?

13 "Those were the POWs. This is something different. This is not

14 the same case. These are people who surrendered or who were captured

15 with weapons and who were brought in and arrested by the military police.

16 Those are the people who are detained by the military police with

17 weapons. They will also probably go now to Sibenik or Zadar. All of

18 them are having their pictures taken all of their information is being

19 obtained.

20 "Chief, do any of the people hearsay they want to go to Bosnia or

21 they want to go to Serbia? Did anyone say they'd like to go to Bosnia,

22 Serbia:

23 "We didn't hear of this. The people only want to go home. The

24 livestock is waiting to be tended to."

25 Q. Mr. Flynn, does that video accurately record at least a portion

Page 1342

1 of your trip to the school on the 9th of August, 1995?

2 A. Yes, I believe so.

3 Q. And the information you had obtained about 40 men having been

4 taken from the school, did you see that discussion there on the video?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you note that there was a difference between what the police

7 chief had said about what happened to the men and how it was translated

8 back to you?

9 A. I might have missed that.

10 Q. We'll replay the portion of it.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. MISETIC: It's a little before that, before that. Okay.

13 Play it.

14 [Videotape played]

15 "They were about 40 men here. Have they left?

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "They heard that 40 men arrived here

17 last night. Have they already left?

18 "They were prisoners of war. This is something different. It is

19 not the same case. Those were people who had surrendered and who were

20 captured or who were captured with weapons and who were brought in and

21 arrested by the military police."


23 Q. That's what the police chief says, and now this is what you were

24 told by the translator.

25 A. I see. So there is a difference in the two statements.

Page 1343

1 Q. Okay. Can you describe what you think the difference is?

2 A. Well, could you back up just one more time, please.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Those are people who were brought

5 in by the military police who had surrendered or were captured with

6 weapons."

7 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, the original statement was more

8 detailed. It referred to people who had surrendered, others who had been

9 detained by military police. So there was more information in the

10 original statement.


12 Q. There could have been confusion that, as opposed to people being

13 arrested by military police with weapons, it was that people with weapons

14 had been arrested by military police. There may be a fine distinction.

15 A. There might be a confusion there, yes.

16 MR. MISETIC: Again, Your Honour, I'm advised I need to ask for a

17 number for the video --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

19 MR. MISETIC: -- and that it be admitted into evidence.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This is Exhibit D67, marked

21 for identification.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just inquire -- I beg

23 your pardon. May I just inquire if the Defence is tendering only that

24 clip or whether there is a full footage of the visit?

25 MR. MISETIC: This is the entire. It's all raw footage that we

Page 1344

1 have. This section is in its entirety the section that relates to

2 Mr. Flynn. I have nothing else on that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: On that visit.


5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let me just try to remember. Was

6 everything that was said in English audible translated into B/C/S? I'm

7 just considering whether we have a full record also in B/C/S of what we

8 have here. The transcript is just English.

9 MR. MISETIC: Yes, sir.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It's a relatively short one, relatively short

11 footage.

12 MR. MISETIC: Yes, two or three minutes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So I would prefer to have B/C/S version as well.

14 MR. MISETIC: Okay. We'll provide it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So, D67, we are waiting for a B/C/S translation

16 before we finally decide on admission.

17 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


20 Q. One follow-up question: Mr. Flynn, do you recognise the chief by

21 name in that video? Have you seen him in other places?

22 A. I didn't recognise him, no.

23 Q. Okay.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you are done with the persons present there.

25 MR. MISETIC: Yes, I am.

Page 1345

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, I saw, from the right-hand side, I

2 saw a person in a more blueish uniform with apparently an insignia on the

3 shoulder, "Policija," was that the chief of the camp or the chief of this

4 institution at this time?

5 THE WITNESS: The individual who was answering my questions?


7 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if he had that responsibility, Your

8 Honour, but he certainly had some responsibility for management of the

9 camp. He may have been a spokesperson and not the senior person there.

10 I'm just not sure.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next to him was someone standing in a

12 brownish-green camouflage uniform, who was that?

13 THE WITNESS: I think that was a UN military observer.

14 JUDGE ORIE: A UN military observer, yes. I was just trying to

15 find out who was who. Then you put one question to your interlocutor,

16 asking whether they had any fear to go out, to leave, or whatever. Did

17 you put questions about fear also to those who were staying in this, in

18 that facility, because it struck me a bit that if a facility is organized

19 by these -- there seems to be someone in charge who is a police officer;

20 then to ask to that police officer whether the other people remaining

21 there, whether they had any fear to do this or that?

22 THE WITNESS: No. I certainly would have asked the refugees

23 themselves, as well.


25 THE WITNESS: I was interested in the police officer's

Page 1346

1 impression, but I certainly would have gone to the primary source for

2 that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Did you do so?

4 THE WITNESS: I'm sure I did, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And what was the result of that.

6 THE WITNESS: My recollection was that, at that point, most

7 people wanted to get out of the school and, as the officer said, back to

8 their farms. I think they were concerned that their farms were being

9 untended at that point.

10 Now, I wouldn't uniformly say that applied to everyone, but

11 particularly -- well, I'm sure that most of the people wanted to get back

12 to their farms at that point. This was only the 9th of August.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

14 MR. MISETIC: I will just ask a few follow-up questions to that.

15 Q. Mr. Flynn, would it be fair to say that because the people who

16 were living in Sector South prior to the 4th of August, 1995, were living

17 under the so-called government of the RSK, that the overwhelming majority

18 of them did not have proper Croatian documentation?

19 A. Yes. I know that there was an issue regarding that; and yes, of

20 course, Croatia had only come into existence a few years before. So,

21 yes, many of those people, probably most of them, did not have Croatian

22 documentation.

23 Q. How, in your experience that you were there, how could the

24 Croatian authorities determine which of the people that were still there

25 had a lawful right to be on that territory and which had come in from,

Page 1347

1 let's say, Bosnia, Serbia, or some other part of the former Yugoslavia

2 and was not a, if I can phrase it this way, a lawful resident of Croatia?

3 A. I seem to recall that there was some interest in locating records

4 that had been maintained prior to the conflict and that would have

5 indicated who had resided there previously.

6 Q. And the process of trying to match the individual with the

7 records, where did that take place?

8 A. I'm really not sure. That's something the Croatian authorities

9 were handling, obviously.

10 Q. Did it take place in the school?

11 A. It may have, but I think that would have been too early, really.

12 I think, at that point, there was an effort made to identify if the

13 persons had been actively involved in the conflict, and who could be

14 given a propusnica to simply move around. I think, at that point,

15 freedom of movement was the issue and not really lawful residents.

16 Q. I'll turn to my final topic, Mr. Flynn. I noted in the

17 transcript the your testimony --

18 MR. MISETIC: One moment, Your Honour.

19 [Defence counsel confer]


21 Q. I refer now to the transcript of your testimony at page 1107,

22 lines 17 to 25, page 1108, line 1.

23 You said: "In speaking for myself, I didn't usually press

24 General Cermak on the question of who he was in contact with in Zagreb.

25 From my point of view, my concern was the local security situation and

Page 1348

1 providing due notice to the General."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You never provided due notice to General Gotovina of the security

4 situation in Sector South, did you?

5 A. I don't believe I ever spoke directly with General Gotovina.

6 Q. Did you write him a letter to put him on due notice of the

7 security situation in Sector South?

8 A. Well, I was a relatively mid-level UN official, and I did not

9 consider that it was for me to independently contact General Gotovina.

10 I --

11 Q. But you were independently contact General Cermak?

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think the witness hadn't completed when

13 counsel interrupted.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first verify. Had you completed your answer

15 when Mr. Misetic put the next question?

16 THE WITNESS: No. Just one more phrase, Your Honour, which is

17 that I understood all along, as I think I've made clear, that General

18 Cermak was a responsible authority in the region and that he was the

19 appropriate person to communicate with, with regard to concerns that we

20 had. I consider that it was adequate to contact General Cermak on these

21 issues.

22 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

23 Q. I'm going to ask you specifically with respect to you, and you

24 had used the phrase "due notice ," so just to be clear for the record,

25 and it's my last question: You, personally, did not provide due notice

Page 1349

1 to General Gotovina of the security situation in Sector South?

2 A. I think you're asking me a legal question. I don't know. Would

3 it be due notice if I informed another senior military official? I'm

4 really not sure of that. But I didn't. I don't believe I ever spoke

5 personally with General Gotovina.

6 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

7 questions of the.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I think we should take a break now.

9 Ms. Mahindaratne, if you could inform us on how much time you

10 would approximately need.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I believe about 40 minutes to 45 minutes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Forty to 45 minutes. We'll have a break until 20

13 minutes to 1.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

17 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You're offering to could the re-examination as well?

19 MR. MISETIC: No, Your Honour, I have to correct the record and

20 that's why I am on my feet.


22 MR. MISETIC: You had asked for the photos. I had indicated that

23 we do not have them. As it turns out, during the break, I discovered

24 that we do have the photos, and they are on the Prosecution 65 ter list.

25 We received them sometime in February.

Page 1350

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I earlier expressed that - I don't know

2 whether they are of any assistance - but if you have looked at it and if

3 could give any clue as to better understand whether this person had

4 visible signs of head injury or even a shot wound, then, of course, the

5 Chamber would like to see it. If there's nothing on it, but a clear

6 picture of the head, of course, the Chamber would also like to see that.

7 Ms. Mahindaratne.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I have the photographs

9 here. Can I just send it to you or would you prefer me to --

10 JUDGE ORIE: If we first ask the usher to just briefly show them

11 to us, so that we can see whether --

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I could even call it up on the screens,

13 Mr. President. It's 65 ter 159.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could do that and then see whether it's of

15 any use. The subject seems to be relevant, but not always a picture

16 gives relevant information.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Page 5 to 6, there are two photographs, if you

18 go to page 5 first.

19 Mr. President, do you wish me to inquire from the witness if he

20 recognises this?

21 JUDGE ORIE: The picture, yes, perhaps that would be good.

22 You see it now on the screen, Mr. Flynn. Is this what you

23 referred to in your statement?

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There is another picture on the next page,

25 Mr. President. This is one body.

Page 1351


2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. So these are pictures of the same

3 individual, apparently.

4 JUDGE ORIE: These two photographs.


6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, you could look at it again.

7 THE WITNESS: Could I see the other photograph? Okay.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can you go to the top photograph, please.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes. If I could see the first photograph then, I

10 think that was the one that I referred to as having been shot in the

11 head.

12 I don't know. I would be --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move to the next. Let me just try to

14 understand what I see. Could we move up again.

15 THE WITNESS: I must say this doesn't really square with my

16 memory of this incident and the placement, so to speak, of the body.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go further down again. Please up again.

18 I'd like to have the hard copies for a better comparison.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber took some time, first of all, to

21 find out about these two photographs, where apparently the person

22 portrayed, the deceased person portrayed, is not in the same position on

23 the two photographs. It seems that the body has been moved, which, if

24 you carefully compare them, it looks as if -- or at least that the

25 photograph is taken from a different angle. The one is not a -- it could

Page 1352

1 be that the body has not been moved, but the photograph has been taken

2 from different angles.

3 I'd like to hear from the parties whether they consider it

4 useful.

5 May I take it that the photograph which is now on our screen,

6 that is 0606-7513, that that is the body of which we saw an autopsy?

7 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, these two individuals are the two

8 individuals that we previously put in autopsies.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are two autopsies.

10 MR. KEHOE: Yes, both Ilija Vitojevic and Milan. I think we have

11 exhibit numbers. They were Exhibit D7 which is Ilija, and D8 is Milan.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it would be good to have them in

13 evidence, so that they have some other material which may assist us and

14 further consider whether the observations made by the police officer, by

15 this witness, or by the autopsies are reliable.

16 Then both of them, would you --

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- would you tender them?

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that then would be?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P52, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If we take them together, that might be practical.

23 No objection. Then P52 is admitted into evidence.

24 Ms. Mahindaratne, of course, there might be some questions from

25 the Chamber as well. Yesterday, you said you hardly would have anything;

Page 1353

1 so, therefore, the 40 minute came as a bit of a surprise. Could you try

2 to finish in until 20 minutes past 1.00.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number D29, please.

6 Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

7 Q. Mr. Flynn, yesterday, you were questioned on behalf of Mr. Cermak

8 on the basis that your conclusions or your impressions about Mr. Cermak's

9 authority were inaccurate, and you were shown a number of documents.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. One of the documents that was shown to you, in fact, supporting

12 that -- or the Defence position was that this document supports that

13 suggestion is this memo from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Could we please move on to page 2, please.

16 Now, in paragraph 4, if you could focus on that paragraph, yes.

17 Q. It's reported that as follows, and this is Mr. Akashi writing:

18 "My meeting with General Cermak went very well. He pledged to respect

19 fully the agreement signed by Mr. Saranic and myself yesterday, copies of

20 which I shared in English and Serbo-Croat.

21 "He reiterated on several occasions that his forces would comply,

22 not only with the agreement, but also with international standards for

23 human rights, as well as the laws of war."

24 Then further down, about the 10th or the 11th line, it says -- it

25 further goes on to say: "Cermak assured me that the population had

Page 1354

1 nothing at all to fear from his forces, and asked that I assist in

2 conveying this message to the people."

3 There's also reference to Mr. Cermak's assurances about safe

4 passage to be provided to the population.

5 Now are these assurances and statements provided by Mr. Cermak

6 consistent with the suggestion put to you by the defence or are they

7 consistent with the impressions you formed about Mr. Cermak's authority,

8 in that are these the type of statements Mr. Cermak made to you?

9 A. Yes, they are. General Cermak addressed these kinds of issues;

10 and it appears to me by looking at this document, which I had not seen

11 before, that Mr. Akashi also assigned to General Cermak a certain amount

12 of authority that is rather significant with regard to the forces there.

13 I considered that the description that was discussed yesterday, I

14 think, of the responsibilities of a garrison commander were not really

15 consistent with what I understood General Cermak to be exercising, but

16 that's also why I said I wasn't 100 per cent sure of his entire

17 responsibility.

18 It was clear to me that he had a greater responsibility than some

19 of these issues such as, I don't know, securing logistical conditions or

20 whatever.

21 Q. While we are still on that document, I'm going to put to you a

22 question on behalf of Mr. Gotovina.

23 On paragraph 3, in paragraph 3, the same page, the document

24 records that: "The hospital was large and in generally good condition,

25 having been hit by only one artillery round."

Page 1355

1 Now, in one of your reports, too, you record the Knin hospital

2 having been hit by one artillery round; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I have document D31, please.

5 Q. Now, yesterday, you were shown Mr. Cermak's letter of

6 appointment; and today, in fact, I have an accurate English translation

7 of that document, which records Mr. Cermak being appointed as commander

8 of the Knin garrison, and not the Knin garrison headquarters as it was

9 first recorded in the previous draft translation.

10 Do you note the document there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, do you note that Mr. Cermak's rank, as indicated here, is

13 Colonel-General?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Cermak was -- had a rank of General. You

16 know, in fact, in reports, you refer to him as General Cermak in your

17 dealings.

18 A. Yes. My understanding was that he had the rank of General.

19 Q. Do you note that Mr. Cermak's predecessor, the former Knin

20 garrison commander, was a Major, Major Marko Gojevic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you note that Mr. Cermak's appointment comes directly from the

23 president, according to this document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, I don't want to waste court time, but do you recall the

Page 1356

1 Defence showing you a document, yesterday, and I'm referring to D32,

2 where it was recorded that garrison commanders were appointed by the Main

3 Staff?

4 A. I seem to recall that, yes.

5 Q. In that context, do you see this appointment as being within the

6 former structure as discussed by Mr. Kay yesterday, or do you see a

7 difference here?

8 A. There seems to be a difference.

9 Q. Could you elaborate what you mean?

10 A. Well, in the sense that the General was appointed by the

11 President of the Republic --

12 Q. To a position --

13 A. -- as the commander of the Knin garrison.

14 Q. Now, yesterday, you were also questioned about your reference to

15 Mr. Cermak as military governor; and you, in fact, testified that

16 Mr. Cermak was introduced to you as military governor.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who introduced Mr. Cermak to you?

19 A. It was -- frankly, the indication was probably given to us prior

20 to our arrival even in Knin, and I met General Cermak for the first time

21 when he visited the UN compound on the 8th of August. I'm afraid I can't

22 say who introduced him, so to speak, but, I mean, it was made evident

23 that he had a certain rank. But I can't say for sure where the term

24 "military governor" came from.

25 Q. Now you were questioned yesterday further about Mr. Cermak's

Page 1357

1 authority over civilian police?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you were particularly -- it was suggested to you that when

4 you used the term "order," that Mr. Cermak ordered the civilian police,

5 that you were then perhaps referring to Mr. Cermak, using the term, "I

6 will 'speak' to the civilian police ." And in relation to this, I would

7 like to show you a document.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up document 2736, and that,

9 Mr. President, was on the list sent to us by the Defence as being one of

10 the exhibits they intended to use, but did not use.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We need a number for that, then.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: While that is being done --

13 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry. Your Honours, that becomes P53, marked

14 for identification.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I don't think we still have it on the screen.

16 It's 2736.

17 Q. You recall, in examination in chief, I questioned you about a

18 particular meeting at which Mr. Cermak informed you that he would order

19 the Knin chief of police for -- to send reinforcement, and I asked you

20 the question whether you heard the term "order" being used by Mr. Cermak

21 and you said so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that correct? Did you hear him say, "I will order," or did

24 you --

25 A. Well, that's how it was translated to me.

Page 1358

1 Q. Now, if we could have --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, if you want to have a Defence

3 document on the screen, then the Defence has to release that.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. Actually, the 65 ter

5 number is from the Prosecution.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It is from the Prosecution. Did you release that.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, it has been released.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has been released, then, Mr. Registrar --

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I just have a hard copy placed on the ELMO

10 for the time being, so I don't waste court time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You can do that for the time being. Of course, the

12 witness should remove his material from the ELMO.


14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have both the English and the B/C/S there,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's start from the English for the time being, and

17 we'll leave the other on the ELMO.

18 MR. KAY: It is apparently a duplicate. There were several

19 versions of this document. 866, I'm told on the Prosecution's 65 ter is

20 where it will also be found. I see Mr. Monkhouse nodding his head.


22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may be just be permitted to

23 read the document into the record.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that we get it now on our screen any

25 how. So the electronics have won from the old techniques.

Page 1359

1 Please proceed. Is this the document you had on your mind?

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No. This is not the document, Mr. President.

3 It's a document number 0206-8325. This is a different one.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm lost now with numbers.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm told that there is a technical problem,

6 Mr. President, and the wrong document is coming up. So I think it looks

7 as if we will have to rely on hard copies.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether it's a technical problem or a human

9 failure is still to be seen, but let's -- the outcome of the match is

10 that the traditional techniques have now won.


12 Q. Mr. Flynn, do you note this document which is an order issued by

13 Mr. Cermak to the Knin police, the Knin Military Police, the Knin police

14 station. Do you note that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And, in fact, it reads: "As of 8 August from 1500 hours, all

17 UNCRO elements with clearly displayed insignia may move freely in the

18 area of Knin and Drnis."

19 This is an order issued by Mr. Cermak to the Knin Military Police

20 and Knin Civilian Police with regard to freedom of movement.

21 A. Yes, it appears to be.

22 Q. And the third paragraph reads: "This order takes effect

23 immediately."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So do you read this as Mr. Cermak issuing orders to Knin Military

Page 1360

1 Police and civilian police?

2 A. It seems to be, yes.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you. May I tender this document in

4 evidence, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

6 THE REGISTRAR: P54, marked for identification, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P54. I take it, Ms. Mahindaratne, that this

8 document, an order dated the 8th of August with the content, I should

9 just put to the witness, will be uploaded into e-court, so that we have

10 a record.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some confusion. I do understand

13 that the hard copy that was put on the ELMO received already number P53.

14 So this document, which we've seen in hard copy, dated the 8th of August,

15 the order with immediate effect, is still P53. But the electronic

16 version is to be uploaded into e-court.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I move to document number D35, please.

20 Q. Mr. Flynn, you were shown this document. I think it's taking a

21 moment for the English version to come up on the screen. Mr. Kay

22 suggested to you in showing this document, and I'll use Mr. Kay's exact

23 language about that this document: "The essential thrust of the whole of

24 this order is that the military police are subordinated to the military

25 police administration."

Page 1361

1 On that suggestion, Mr. Kay showed this document to you.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he read out some paragraphs of this document. Let me read

4 out a very pertinent paragraph.

5 And if I could focus on paragraph 3, it reads that: "In

6 accordance with Article 9 of the Rules, VP platoons," VP is a reference

7 military police, "attached to the brigades are subordinated to the

8 brigade commander, and through him to the commander of the military

9 district Croatian navy, Croatian air force, and public security in

10 performing daily military police tasks."

11 Now, in reading that paragraph, what do you understand the

12 subordination of the military police to be for the daily military police

13 tasks, and I do appreciate you don't have a military background, but

14 since the document was put to you?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

16 MR. MISETIC: I would object. I think we've established this

17 morning that taking this witness through Croatian military documents and

18 asking him for an essentially a military or legal opinion on

19 subordination may not be the most appropriate. We won't have re-direct

20 on this but through other witness. Obviously, I just want to reserve our

21 position on the interpretation.

22 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, the witness was asked to give his

23 understanding with these kind of documents by Defence counsel, who

24 introduced these documents; so, therefore, I allow Ms. Mahindaratne to

25 put these questions, and it's on the record, your objections.

Page 1362

1 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I would say your reservations on the record.

3 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

4 You may answer the question, Mr. Flynn.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 THE WITNESS: My understanding is that military police - and I

7 can only reiterate what it says there - the military police attached to

8 brigades are subordinated to the brigade commander and through him to the

9 commander of the military district.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's already in evidence, Mr. President. I

11 will move on.

12 May I have document D43, please.

13 Q. Now, yesterday, you were shown -- while the document comes up,

14 you were shown a document where 100 civilian protection conscripts were

15 being sent, and it was suggested to you by Mr. Kay that these 100 men

16 were being sent to police the area.

17 Now, if you could focus --

18 MR. KAY: I don't think I said police the area.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think the reference was --

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you give me the reference, then we can look it

21 up.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's pages, from yesterday's transcript,

23 Mr. President, 58 to 60.

24 And while certainly Mr. Kay didn't use the word "police," the

25 suggestion was clearly that.

Page 1363

1 MR. KAY: I think we had a discussion about the use of a

2 particular word. I remember Your Honour raising the point of different

3 interpretations.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You said 58 to 60.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. If I could read it here,

6 it is a question on the basis of this document.

7 Mr. Kay says: "Yes. But on the face of this order, it seems

8 that this assistant minister was ordering that rapidly and urgently that

9 100 conscripts go to the area."

10 Answer: "That's what it says, yes."

11 Question: "And, in fact, it was a concern of yours about the

12 failure of the police to order more policemen to the area, and that's

13 apparent from your statement."

14 Clearly, the reference was that these were -- this was police

15 reinforcement.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well it does not literally say so. "Failure of the

17 police to order more police to the area." Now, put your question. We

18 have read what question was put to you yesterday. To that extent,

19 Mr. Kay's words are now there accurately. Please put your question to

20 the witness.


22 Q. Mr. Flynn, on this issue, you raised a very pertinent question.

23 You asked as to what rapid terrain clearance meant, and that was not

24 properly explored.

25 In paragraph 1 of this document, the reference is to "urgently

Page 1364

1 mobilise 100 civilian protection conscripts from the area of Sinj."

2 Now, from your understanding, and you working in human rights

3 matters in conflict areas, what type of activity are members of civilian

4 protection movements used for, policing or other type of humanitarian

5 work such as collection of bodies, clearance of terrain, of debris, et

6 cetera?

7 A. My understanding is that it relates more to the humanitarian

8 situation of populations and to their humanitarian needs such as food,

9 water, energy requirements.

10 Q. And in paragraph 2, there is a reference: "The unit must report

11 to Mr. Stanko Batur of the Knin police station."

12 Now, do you know or have you heard of that name and a reference

13 to him as being in charge of the sanitation and hygiene unit?

14 A. It sounds familiar, but I can't recall offhand what I knew his

15 role to be.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, there are two documents. I

17 could lead into evidence just to give the Trial Chamber an accurate

18 picture of this matter, but we could always lead that evidence later on.

19 Would you prefer to --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, in view of the time, and there is still a

21 possibility that what the position of Mr. Batur is, perhaps the parties

22 could even agree on that.

23 Yes. It seems that there is some body language which raises high

24 expectations in this respect.

25 We have seen the same with documents Mr. Cermak being appointed,

Page 1365

1 et cetera. These are matters which I would say in 80 per cent of the

2 cases would be ready for agreement on. This is a decision by which he

3 was appointed; the position of Mr. Batur was this or that. Of course, if

4 there's any challenge to any of these matters, then, of course, the

5 Chamber will hear the evidence about it. But these certainly are matters

6 which should not take too much time in court.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do my speeches have to take much time in

9 court.

10 Please proceed.


12 Q. Now, you were asked today about collection centres. You visited

13 the collection centre or the refugee centre in Knin school?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were there numbers of women, elderly, and children, displaced

16 persons in that school?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know how they got to that place? Did they come

19 voluntarily or were they brought there by Croatian forces, perhaps the

20 civilian police, or members of the military police? Do you know?

21 A. I believe most, if not all, of those individuals were collected

22 by Croatian authorities and brought there. They did not, as far as I

23 knew, come on their own. In fact, people who would have come on their

24 own typically went to the UN compound, because I think those people came

25 of their own accord, and they came because of security concerns for the

Page 1366

1 most part.

2 Q. Now, were you ever offered an explanation by Mr. Cermak or any

3 member of the Croatian authorities as to why people were taken to the

4 school?

5 A. As I recall, there was an interest in registering people; and in

6 some cases, I think some people may have been removed from certain areas

7 where it was expected there might be some kind of military activity. I'm

8 afraid my recollection is not very clear on that point.

9 Q. Now, was there a registration process at the Knin school where

10 the persons were properly registered?

11 A. I believe so, yes.

12 Q. And what happened to the majority of those people? Did they

13 return to their villages, or were they transported out of the country?

14 A. I think most of those people, at least in the first instance,

15 returned to their homes. Now, there were a significant number of people

16 who began showing up at the UN compound toward the end of August, and I

17 don't know if that may have included some people who at one point had

18 been in the school. But I think that the numbers of people at the school

19 went down in the first couple of weeks, and I think that was mainly

20 because many of those people did wish to at least try to go back to their

21 homes.

22 Q. Now, it was suggested to you, and you were questioned on the

23 basis on behalf of Mr. Gotovina, that these people could leave the

24 collection centre, and there was no detention involved. Now, was the

25 situation outside the -- these camps or the collection centres conducive

Page 1367

1 for people to return to their villages?

2 A. Well, that evolved over time. I think people had had very

3 different experiences, people who -- the people I spoke with in the UN

4 compound who had come from the areas to the south of Knin which had seen

5 the military or at least one part of Operation Storm directly, those

6 people did not seem so keen to go back because I think of experiences

7 that they had had.

8 But for other individuals that were coming from other areas that

9 really had not, until that point, seen any sort of fighting or

10 threatening military activity, they were willing to try to go back, as I

11 say.

12 Q. Now, you say that those -- there was some people, a segment of

13 the number of people who were there, who were not so keen to go back

14 "because I think of experiences that they had had."

15 Now, could you elaborate on what exactly you are talking about

16 here?

17 A. Well, in that respect, I'm speaking of the information that we

18 got from several witnesses about what I consider to be crimes committed

19 against persons who were essentially fleeing the oncoming Croatian army.

20 And, in some cases, according to the information we received, there were

21 subject to threats; and, in some cases, saw people being shot on the

22 spot.

23 The -- there was a gap, so to speak, between the great majority

24 of people who did leave the region in advance of the Croatian army, and I

25 think some people who were furthest from the exit point. There were a

Page 1368

1 number of people from the Drnis region who did not end up making it in

2 time, I think, to the convoy; and their experiences were rather different

3 from those who were at the head of the convoy.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. Flynn.

5 That concludes the re-examination, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza has a question for you.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Mr. Flynn, in the reports that you compiled for

11 the daily reports, specific ages are given to, or rather, in relation to

12 the victims whose bodies were found in various places. How were these

13 ages determined? I'm assuming that not every body or every victim had

14 identification particulars on them.

15 A. No. It was actually rather rare to find individuals with

16 identification, as I recall. So most of the information regarding age

17 came from neighbours, and some of that information may not have been

18 totally accurate. I mean, for example, someone may have been identified

19 as 60 years old, when they were 58 or something like that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Flynn, I have a few questions for you as well.

21 In one of the documents, we saw that it was reported that -- I

22 think it was Mr. Cermak who proposed joint patrols. I think it was -- I

23 haven't got the source right here at this moment. Did they -- and I

24 understood joint patrols to be UN/Croatian patrols; is that correctly

25 understood?

Page 1369

1 A. Do you mean in the early days, Your Honour? I remember -- excuse

2 me.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think it was later. I think it was somewhere

4 early September.

5 A. Yes.


7 A. I'm trying to remember if that was General Cermak's suggestion.

8 JUDGE ORIE: But there was a suggestion to have joint patrols

9 early September; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes, indeed, between the UN CIVPOL and the Croatian civilian

11 police.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question is: Were there ever joint

13 patrols? Was there just the proposal or a suggestion or was there ever

14 joint patrols?

15 A. It was rather fitful at the time I was there. I refer to this

16 one instance in which it didn't work because of the fuel problems. As

17 long as I was there, Your Honour, I don't remember there being a regular

18 system of joint patrols. But, as I say, UN CIVPOL's method of operation

19 throughout the entire former Yugoslavia, and for that matter in other UN

20 operations, is typically to work directly with the local police. So I'm

21 fairly sure that they were involved in joint patrols with the Croatian

22 police toward the end of my stay there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not in the early stages.

24 A. Right.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then if you would allow me one second to find a

Page 1370

1 document. I apologise, but I have to look at this.

2 You will remember D52, and what I was looking for was the exact

3 date of D52, and it might be that that's a document which has no clear

4 date. But if the parties could assist me, that would be appreciated;

5 otherwise, I'll find it.

6 MR. KAY: It was a letter that I think was back to front, and

7 that page 6 is the cover letter for it, dated the 7th of August, 1995.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I see that the first page of that document

9 gives an unclear date.

10 MR. KAY: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: But there, in D52, we saw a number of 91 persons on

12 a list. You remember that list?

13 A. Those were the dead?

14 JUDGE ORIE: No, not only the dead. I think it were the persons

15 that were in the school at that time.

16 A. Oh, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You remember that list.

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we heard a number of 250 in the school. Here

20 we have a list of 91. Could you give us any impression on the

21 development of the numbers, because you said that at the time they were

22 supposedly be released, they did not -- the school was not empty after

23 that.

24 Could you give us a more general impression on how the numbers of

25 people in that school developed?

Page 1371

1 A. Well, as I recall, the authorities actually used the school as a

2 place for registration; and I'm fairly sure that, as they -- as they

3 found some people in the region, they brought them to the school. Maybe

4 the people were looking for some sort of temporary refuge.

5 With respect to the development in terms of numbers, my memory is

6 pretty hazy, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you don't remember, then I will won't

8 further ask.

9 Also, a document was read to you on which a date was said, where

10 you said then, well, the people had not left the school yet, because you

11 remembered that there was still persons in that school at a later time.

12 That document used the word "released."

13 Could I ask you, where you said you had the impression that it

14 was not a detention situation, that the people were kept there, how you,

15 as I do understand you are a native English speaker, how you understood

16 the use of the term "released" in this respect?

17 A. Well, I think in the early days until the 15th of August, there

18 was this requirement of a propusnica; and, essentially, people were not

19 allowed to leave. So, perhaps, they were detained in a certain way

20 unless they had a safe passage document.

21 After that, I seem to recall that, as long as the authorities did

22 not consider they, you know, had been involved in military activities,

23 that they were free to leave. So when I say "released," I think that

24 term refers more to --

25 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --

Page 1372

1 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness could first finish.

2 THE WITNESS: I think it refers more to being released

3 essentially from any suspicion that they posed a threat, and therefore

4 they were free to go.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is this what you think or do you have any specific

6 reason to believe that, because there -- but perhaps you finished your

7 answer.

8 First, Mr. Misetic.

9 MR. MISETIC: I just wanted to clarify. I think the word thinks

10 that you were using the word as if it was his word.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, not his word. It was a word used in the

12 documents in which I asked you how you understood that word, because the

13 word "released" was used in relation to a certain date. This was

14 expected that they would be released by, I think it was the 15th or 14th.

15 Was that clear to you when I put the question to you?

16 A. No. I may have misunderstood, Your Honour, and I'm afraid

17 that my recollection is not that clear about the circumstances under

18 which people could have left that facility. I think some people wished

19 to remain for a certain period of time because of security fears or other

20 concerns. I'm probably not your best source of information on that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we should seek a better source of

22 information.

23 Finally, do you know whether there was those who had not had, in

24 the earlier years, Croatian nationality, so let's say the people that

25 moved in after Croatia had lost control over that territory, would they

Page 1373

1 also receive free passage to the place, villages, hamlets, where they

2 lived before, or would safe passage would be restricted in any way?

3 I'm now talking about - and I saw on the list that, from what

4 I've seen, they were all Serbs - those who had not lived prior to the

5 start of the war earlier in that area. I mean, did they get a safe

6 passage to go back to the villages where they had lived; legally or not

7 is not something are give any opinion about?

8 A. Your Honour, I wish I could answer that question, but I really

9 don't think I can.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, then you can't answer that

11 question. Thank you very much.

12 Have the questions of the Bench raised any further questions for

13 which we could have a couple of minutes.

14 MR. MISETIC: Thirty seconds, Your Honour. I just wish to

15 reserve on the record you commented that you believe that all the people

16 on the list were Serbs, and I believe --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think I didn't state it, as I said "from what I've

18 seen." I went through the first page, and I only saw Serbs. It's not

19 clear on my recollection, but I went right to the bottom.

20 MR. MISETIC: We'll point that out later.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see how I said it.

22 MR. MISETIC: 105, Your Honours, lines 5.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I have to move back today to today's transcript you

24 said 105, line.

25 MR. MISETIC: 5.

Page 1374

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes I said, and I saw on the list that, and I meant

2 to say, "from what I've seen there," I already reserved ...

3 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Not having fully checked the list for nationality.

5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no further questions, Ms. Mahindaratne.

7 No further questions.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Flynn, this concludes your testimony in

10 court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The

11 Hague, and for having answered questions of the parties and of the Bench.

12 I wish you a safe trip home again, and I'm glad that this is on Friday

13 and not on Monday.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you escort Mr. Flynn out of the

16 courtroom.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Have the parties received an MFI list, which I must

19 admit that I have not prepared the MFI list as I usually do, that is,

20 having a clear view on every single document; but, nevertheless, we'll

21 try to make it shorter.

22 D11 was?

23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, you had asked for a B/C/S version, and

24 I'm advised that it's updated now with a B/C/S version and is now in

25 e-court.

Page 1375

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I believe that's correct, and

3 there is no objection.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. D11 is admitted into evidence.

5 D13, the first comparative video clip.

6 MR. TIEGER: No objection.

7 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. Was there any issue about

8 transcripts? There was not. Then D13 is admitted into evidence.

9 D14 is similar; another comparative video clip. I think the

10 first one was about broken glass. The second one was about shell impact

11 and police cars or at least cars.

12 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I believe that, no, there's not, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: D14 is admitted into evidence.

14 Then we move on to D17, filming positions and movement.

15 MR. TIEGER: Just a couple of -- let me just say there's no

16 substantive objection to that. Mr. Misetic and I have discussed that,

17 and just two issues that I can recall. One is that that document was

18 going to be amended as reflected at, I think, page 966 of the transcript?

19 I'm assured that will happen, but that's the only current problem.

20 Secondly, there was going to be -- well, Mr. Misetic and I agreed

21 that there was the need for a clarification about the time reflected on

22 the video. Mr. Misetic can explain that to the court.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are we at a stage where it's right for

24 admission or are we still --

25 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. I think the amendment does actually

Page 1376

1 require some change to the document itself.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

3 MR. MISETIC: We'll reserve it and fix it this weekend, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then D17 is still on our list.

6 D18.

7 MR. TIEGER: No objection, only with the exception that it's

8 another document that I think requires a change in the description of

9 the -- sorry, that the document itself doesn't require anything, and only

10 a change of the description.

11 MR. MISETIC: The description has been changed, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Description has been changed and no objection, so

13 D18 is now in evidence.

14 D24.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. This is a document that we

16 have been provided the original for a moment, and we will immediately

17 transfer it to the translation unit.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that still remains on our list until we

19 have received it, until there is a translation.

20 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes. As regards to D25, we have been already

21 provided the translation.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has it been uploaded into e-court, the

23 translation?

24 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, it was.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Has the Prosecution had an opportunity to look at

Page 1377

1 it? It's the one where the date where the witness visited churches.

2 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, I did, and there's -- I did

3 confirm that. There's no objection.

4 JUDGE ORIE: D25 is admitted into evidence.

5 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


7 MR. MISETIC: I believe Your Honour indicated that you were

8 awaiting a B/C/S transcript.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, it's still on our list. Thank

10 you for your assistance.

11 I think the same was true for D64, is that correct, regarding the

12 original?

13 MR. MISETIC: So it's ready to admit, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. We'll have further to consider it. I

15 mean, if a video is English spoken, usually we find it not enough that

16 there's just a transcript of the translation, but also the transcript of

17 the spoken word.

18 So, therefore, perhaps for D64, not for any matter of substance,

19 but rather for purposes of procedure, I'd like to leave that on the list

20 for a second, so that we can consider whether we, nevertheless, need a

21 transcript in the original language spoken.

22 D65, if someone could remind me why it's not immediately

23 admitted.

24 MR. MISETIC: It just needed a number, Your Honour, and I forgot

25 to ask for it to be admitted.

Page 1378

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D65, no objections?

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections.

3 JUDGE ORIE: D65 is admitted into evidence.

4 D67, the video from the Knin reception centre there. We also had

5 transcript issues.


7 JUDGE ORIE: So that remains on our list.

8 We move on to the P numbers.

9 P23. I haven't got all the exhibits here with me; otherwise, I

10 would have been better prepared. Mr. Tieger.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. Tieger will take this.

12 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, with respect to P23, I understand,

13 from discussions with Mr. Misetic, there's -- there was an objection with

14 respect to page 2 of that exhibit. That document relates to a schedule

15 killing. We had already advised the Defence that there were some

16 witness-related issues in connection with that schedule killing. The

17 suggestion was that we defer tendering of this document until such time

18 as witness evidence related to that schedule killing was adduced, and we

19 agree with that suggestion if it meets the satisfaction of the Court.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Misetic.

21 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The list is too long to finish it at this moment, as

23 we are quarter to 2.00. However, I advised parties, especially in

24 relation to your last remark, Mr. Tieger, that I scheduled a meeting

25 early next week with the with Mr. Monkhouse and Mr. Nilsson, in order to

Page 1379

1 see how we can keep these MFI numbers short and what to do with the

2 documents which for whatever reason can't be admitted at a certain

3 moment.

4 It might be that once we have finished this conversation, that we

5 further need to speak with the parties. It could also be that we come to

6 conclusions and then the parties will be informed about those

7 conclusions.

8 We'll therefore stop for the day.

9 Mr. Registrar, we are sitting next week in the morning hours, so

10 I take it that, yes, we will adjourn until Monday, the 14th of April, in

11 courtroom III.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day

14 of April, 2008 at 9.00 a.m.