Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1380

1 Monday, 14 April 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this could

7 the room. Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12 Mr. Waespi or who is it?

13 MR. HEDARALY: Good morning, Your Honour. Saklaine Hedaraly for

14 the Office of the Prosecutor.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to call your next

16 witness?

17 MR. HEDARALY: We are, Your Honour. The Prosecution would like

18 to call Mira Grubor.



21 JUDGE ORIE: And fortunately, Ms. Grubor, you're there already.

22 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to you. Before you give evidence in

24 this court the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

25 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and

Page 1381

1 nothing but the truth. The text has been given to you by the usher. May

2 I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. I noted

6 that you spoke in English.


8 JUDGE ORIE: You're free to choose the language in which you

9 express yourself best. If you -- I don't know whether you intended to

10 continue in English or whether you would like to speak B/C/S as we call

11 it or -- please be aware that if you have any hesitation as to whether

12 you can express yourself in detail in the best way, please choose the

13 language which is most suitable.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Hedaraly, please proceed.

16 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

18 Q. Good morning. Could you please state your full name for the

19 record.

20 A. My full name is Mira Grubor.

21 Q. And in what country do you presently reside?

22 A. I reside in New Zealand.

23 Q. And what is your occupation in New Zealand?

24 A. I'm a police officer.

25 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by representatives of the Office

Page 1382

1 of the Prosecutor on 3 April 1998 and providing a statement to them?

2 A. Yes, I do recall that.

3 Q. Did you have a chance to review the statement in the last week?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Did that statement accurately reflect to the representatives of

6 the Office of the Prosecutor on 3 April 1998?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. And do you recall providing a supplemental statement to the

9 Office of the Prosecutor on 12 July 2007?

10 A. I do recall.

11 Q. And did you have a chance to review this supplemental statement

12 in the last week?

13 A. I had.

14 Q. And did -- and did that statement accurately reflect what you

15 said to the Office of the Prosecutor?

16 A. It does reflect.

17 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, if I could ask for 65 ter number 4779

18 to be brought up, and if I could provide a hard copy to the witness of

19 her two statements so she can see them.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The 65 ter number you mentioned, is that the first

21 statement? Is that the 1998 statement?

22 MR. HEDARALY: Yes. And 4780 will be the 2007 statement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first start with 4779.

24 MR. HEDARALY: And could we mark those for identification, Your

25 Honour.

Page 1383

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, 4779 would be?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour that becomes Exhibit P54 marked for

3 identification. And 65 ter.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] for the 1998 statement. And

5 then.

6 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 04780, that's the 2007 statement,

7 becomes Exhibit P55 marked for identification.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


10 Q. Ms. Grubor, this statement that in front of you the one dated 3

11 April 1998, is that the statement that you provided to the Office of the

12 Prosecutor?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And the contents of that statement are true and accurate to the

15 best of your knowledge and recollection?

16 A. Yes, they are.

17 Q. And if you asked the same questions today as you were asked in

18 1998 would you give the same answers?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record we see at this moment the cover

21 pages of the same but without signature. If it could be moved up a tiny

22 little bit. Yes. That's clear. Yes. I see that the English statement

23 is a signed statement. Please proceed.

24 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, at this time I would like to have

25 Exhibit P54 entered into evidence.

Page 1384

1 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No objections. P54 is admitted

2 into evidence.


4 Q. And Ms. Grubor if I could now refer you to your 2007 statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that the statements you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor

7 on July 2007.

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. And the contents of the supplemental statement are true to the

10 best of your knowledge and recollection?

11 A. Yes, they are.

12 Q. And if you asked the same questions today that you were asked in

13 2007, would you give the same answers?

14 A. Yes, I would.

15 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, at this time I would like P55 to be

16 admitted into evidence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no objections and I see no objections,

18 hear no objections then P55 is admitted into evidence.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note would you kindly make a

20 second's pause between question and answer.

21 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, if we could also mark for

22 identification the two attachments to the supplemental statement which

23 are 65 ter number 1584 and 1585 and have those admitted as well.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, 1584 would be number?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes P56 marked for

Page 1385

1 identification.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And P1585.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P57 marked for identification.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against these attachment to the

5 statement? Then P56 and P57 are admitted into evidence.

6 Please proceed.


8 Q. Ms. Grubor in the course of your 3 April 1998 interview, did you

9 make markings and annotations on an aerial photograph of Knin?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, if we could have 65 ter number 3747

12 pulled up and marked for identification.

13 JUDGE ORIE: 3747. Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes Exhibit P58 marked for

15 identification, Your Honours.

16 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, if I could provide a hard copy of

17 this map for the witness for ease of reference because we will be

18 referring to it during examination.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. And that is an aerial photograph with

20 some handwritten --

21 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, I have some extra copies for the

22 Court if you would like to have the hard copy for ease of reference.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I have a hard copy here. I notice, however, that

24 the witness has a bigger sized.

25 MR. HEDARALY: I have a larger one to see, if you want.

Page 1386


2 Mr. Misetic.

3 MR. MISETIC: I would also be grateful if we could get a copy.

4 MR. HEDARALY: Certainly.

5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think I got something -- no.

7 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I can explain. The --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I received on my desk two different versions

9 of 3747. The one I receive it now with a legend in red type written, and

10 there is another one which seems to be the handwritten version of the

11 same without translation.

12 MR. HEDARALY: That is correct, Your Honour. Because the

13 contrast on the first map was not clear we just got it reproduced. We

14 sent it to the Defence and we'll just confirm with the witness that those

15 are the same markings before admitting it into evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's certainly is helpful comparing the two

17 versions.


19 Q. Ms. Grubor, does the -- does the map that you have been given,

20 Exhibit P58, does this map reflect the annotations you made in your 3

21 April 1998 statement?

22 A. As far as I can recall it's the same one, just much clearer.

23 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, at this stage we would like to admit

24 Exhibit P58 into evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against P58?

Page 1387

1 MR. MISETIC: No objections, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then P58 is admitted into evidence.

3 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, I would like to read out a short

4 summary of the evidence of this witness contained in the two statements.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does the witness know why we're doing this?

6 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, but if --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Grubor, we do it so that your written

8 statement, which we've read, that at least the public, and this is a

9 public hearing, knows what it is all about.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

11 MR. HEDARALY: Mira Grubor was born in the hamlet of Grubori in

12 the Knin municipality. When Operation Storm began on 4 August 1995, she

13 was a laboratory assistant at the Knin hospital. On that day while at

14 the hospital, she observed a number of persons brought to the hospital

15 that had been killed and injured by the shelling of the town.

16 On the first day, about 120 dead bodies, among which

17 approximately 30 to 40 in civilian clothes were brought to the hospital.

18 Another 160 to 180 injured people were also brought to the hospital on

19 that day, and approximately 40 to 60 of those wore civilian clothing.

20 As far as Ms. Grubor can remember, all the dead and injured

21 brought to the hospital on the 4th of August had been killed or injured

22 because of the shelling.

23 In the early morning of the 5th of August, Ms. Grubor drove to

24 the UN camp with a doctor from the hospital to seek the UN's assistance

25 in taking the seriously wounded persons back to the UN compound. Later

Page 1388

1 that morning at around 10.30, Croatian soldiers entered the hospital and

2 Ms. Grubor fled to the UN camp.

3 This concludes my summary, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly. Yes.


6 Q. Ms. Grubor, I'm going to ask you a few questions to clarify the

7 statements that you've given us and that have been entered into evidence.

8 In your first statement, P54, on the second paragraph you said

9 that six days before Operation Storm began you sent your daughter to

10 Serbia after the fall of Grahovo. My first question is, first of all,

11 how old was your daughter at that time?

12 A. She was five at the time.

13 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what were the specific

14 reasons for sending her away to Serbia?

15 A. After Bosanska Grahovo was taken over by Croatian soldiers, the

16 Knin and the Krajina were cut off from Serbia, meaning cut off from

17 supply in food or anything else. I did not want my daughter to

18 experience any lack of food or hardship, so I decided to send her over

19 until I work out what's happening, what's going on.

20 Q. Was there any other reasons -- any other reason to send her?

21 A. No. The other reason is the safety. I was afraid what may have

22 happened next after Grahovo was taken over.

23 Q. Do you have any -- any specific -- did you have any specific

24 fears of what may happen?

25 A. Yes, I did. I saw withdrawal of is Serbian soldiers from Grahovo

Page 1389

1 after Grahovo was taken over. I just had a fear that the very next step

2 maybe another attack towards my place, Knin, and I did not want my

3 five-year-old daughter to be there present if that happened.

4 Q. And how long did you plan to be separated from your daughter?

5 A. For a start, I thought probably about a week, two weeks maximum.

6 Just until I realise what is happening, what is going on.

7 Q. And what was your plan after? Was it to join her in Serbia or to

8 have her come back to Knin?

9 A. Depending on the circumstances. If it was safe for her to come

10 back I would bring her back, but if it wasn't then definitely in two

11 weeks' time maximum I would make my way and join her in Serbia.

12 Q. If we can turn to page 4 of that statement, P54, the first

13 paragraph at the top. In the middle of the paragraph there is a

14 statement: "There were no RSK military positions in Knin ..."

15 What did you mean by military positions?

16 A. Within last few days prior to this event I did not see any, let's

17 say, large military group, soldiers, in the town. There were very few of

18 them to be seen on the street.

19 Q. And can you please tell us what was the composition of the town

20 on 4 August 1995?

21 A. I can refer to probably couple days prior to that and on the very

22 4th. The -- the town itself looked rather deserted. At the time the

23 buses were not running any more, so only people who lived in the town --

24 in the town were there, and I would say probably mostly women and

25 civilians who lived in the area.

Page 1390

1 Q. If we can turn to page 3, the previous page of P54. In the

2 second paragraph you mention two incidents that were particularly

3 horrifying, and I just want to clarify the source of your knowledge for

4 both of these incidents. Let's start with the first, the elderly woman

5 that had suffered from a stroke and that husband's -- that woman's

6 husband and son were killed when the vehicle received a hit. Who told

7 you about the vehicle being hit?

8 A. When I was in the hospital and I saw elderly woman on the

9 stretcher and a nurse attending, so I approached to ask if I could be of

10 any help. The nurse told me that woman was brought by someone to

11 hospital who said that woman's son and husband about to take her to

12 hospital, then their vehicle was shot directly by -- the bomb fell

13 directly onto the vehicle killing husband and son.

14 Q. I want to move to the second --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

16 MR. MISETIC: If I could just note for the record our objection

17 to the double hearsay nature of the statement, but I understand --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- if you have any objection against a

19 question you may arise. What the Chamber will have to do with this

20 double hearsay evidence, there's no reason to interrupt the flow of

21 evidence for that reason. That can be done at a later stage.

22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Let's move to the second incident in that paragraph when you said

Page 1391

1 that the vehicle was hit by shrapnel just outside the hospital. In this

2 case, who told you that this incident had taken place right outside the

3 hospital?

4 A. Again that incident -- during that incident I was inside in the

5 hospital. I could see the entrance, main entrance of the hospital from

6 the corridor, and I saw two males enter the hospital. One was carrying

7 another one. The one who was carrying another man was yelling and

8 shouting something like, "They killed him. He's dead." I did not know

9 immediately what was happening, but then he said as they pulled outside

10 the hospital the bomb fell nearby and shrapnel went through the back door

11 and killed the man at the back.

12 I did not go to see that myself. I --

13 Q. Did you --

14 A. -- did see the hole on the car to support that. There was a hole

15 on that vehicle that was outside the hospital.

16 Q. Just to clarify. So you could see that from inside the hospital?

17 A. Yes. Hospital entrance was big glass door. I could see that

18 through the glass door as the vehicle was literally probably three metres

19 outside away from the front entrance.

20 Q. Did you work at the hospital for the entire week preceding the

21 4th of August?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you at any time during that week see a RSK tank near the

24 hospital?

25 A. Not in my recollection. I can't remember seeing that.

Page 1392

1 Q. Could you -- when you would go to the hospital and when you were

2 in the hospital, would you be able to see the whole vicinity of the

3 hospital?

4 A. I would say probably 70, 80 per cent of hospital grounds, meaning

5 south side, west, and north side. Probably east side would be blocked

6 because the entrance probably was from the west side of the hospital.

7 Q. And as far as you can remember, when was the last time that you

8 saw an RSK tank in the city of the Knin?

9 A. As far as I can remember, that was on the day when Bosansko

10 Grahovo was taken over by Croatian army. I saw a convoy of trucks and

11 tanks and cannons coming back to the town from Bosansko Grahovo

12 direction.

13 Q. If we can turn to your supplemental statement, P55, at paragraph

14 10, page 3.

15 There's a reference there in the middle of the paragraph about

16 Croatian tanks were also firing in the town. Did you find the reference?

17 A. Yes, yes. It's here. You can see it.

18 Q. Can you tell the Chamber when, where, in what circumstances you

19 saw these Croatian tanks firing in the town?

20 A. The first time I hear the tanks firing that was on the 5th of

21 August. We were working on the transport of our wounded outside the

22 hospital just in front of the morgue when a series of loud explosions,

23 firing, began. It was different than previous shelling. It was much

24 powerful, louder, and I am pretty sure it was tanks firing the targets

25 around. I can't tell exactly what the target was at the time, but it was

Page 1393

1 very close, and very terrifying experience.

2 Q. So just to clarify, you did not actually see the tank, but you

3 heard fire from what you thought were tanks?

4 A. Yeah, that's right. I did not see them at the time.

5 Q. And at what time was that? You said in the 5th August --

6 A. 5th of August. I think it was about 9.00. I may be wrong for

7 half an hour before or later, but I'm pretty sure it was 9.00.

8 Q. If we can go back to your first statement, P54. On page 4, the

9 third paragraph. You discuss the arrival of Croatian soldiers at the

10 hospital. Now, do you know if the soldiers fired any shots inside the

11 hospital?

12 A. Yes. When they arrived I was outside the hospital. I saw them.

13 I hear them at the -- at the gate, hospital gate. I ran downstairs into

14 the bomb shelter, and few minutes after that I could hear swearing

15 upstairs and then yelling, and then I could hear shots being fired. I

16 hear the explosion.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what happened after that because

19 that's when I took off from hospital.

20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I didn't want to object earlier, but

21 some of the questions that are being asked here, including whether there

22 was a tank in front of the hospital and now whether there were gunshots,

23 et cetera, don't appear in her statements and look to me have been

24 discussed with the witness prior to her appearance here. We have not

25 received a proofing statement so these are all matters that are new to us

Page 1394

1 and I feel a little hindered in cross-examination that matters are being

2 raised for the first time with the witness on the stand that we have not

3 gotten notice of.

4 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, the reference to the RSK tank was

5 raised by the Defence as late as Friday, and we only talked to the

6 witness last night, and it seems to me that they all fall within the

7 ambit of clarifying the statement whether there were shots. She says

8 that the Croatian soldiers came in. They were pointing their guns. The

9 logical clarification question whether any shots were fired from these

10 guns. So we don't think that that's necessarily hindering the Defence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, tank of course is a bit different. I take it

12 you're aware of that.


14 JUDGE ORIE: The issue there is clearly whether there was any

15 counter-fire attracted by certain activities. So it would have been

16 appropriate if you would have given notice to the Defence specifically on

17 that issue which goes beyond just clarification.

18 MR. HEDARALY: It's noted, Mr. President. I apologise.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


21 Q. At the -- at the bottom of the same page, in the last paragraph

22 on P54, on the first line when you went to -- back to the town to -- to

23 your friend's apartment, you said: "On the house there was a notice that

24 it was occupied."

25 Can you please tell us if you remember what the notice actually

Page 1395

1 said?

2 A. When we approach the house, on the front door, on one big piece

3 of board, there was a sign saying "This house is occupied by --" I think

4 it was short form of -- like it was HVO: "This house is occupied by HVO

5 member." But I'm not absolutely sure what exactly, whether there was a

6 name or more text, but it was quite common to see during those days such

7 notices on the houses.

8 Q. In the same paragraph, on the last line when you encountered a

9 group of men and you say the men threatened you and your friend and you

10 had to leave, in the last line, just tell us what was the threat, the

11 specific threat that was made?

12 A. My friend that was with me was not happy about her house being

13 occupied, and she started complaining loudly about it. I could see the

14 group of young people, probably about 30, 40 metres away. There were two

15 females and three or four males on the street.

16 As she was complaining and saying that no one has had the right

17 to get into her house and take away her property, one of the males from

18 the group could hear that. He started arguing back saying something

19 like, "Do you know who you are? You have no right here." Something

20 along those lines. And then friend of mine continued to argue. The next

21 moment three males started running towards us threatening, and we just

22 managed to get into the car. And as we were leaving, the first man

23 managed to reach the vehicle. He literally bumped into the vehicle

24 trying to open the door which we locked as soon as we got inside, and we

25 took off.

Page 1396

1 Q. Thank you. I want to turn my attention now to the shelling that

2 you described in your previous statements, and I will refer you to your

3 annotations made on the aerial photo of Knin. That's Exhibit P58. In

4 particular, I want to focus on some of the areas labelled on the map as

5 areas of shelling that you saw. I'm not sure we'll be able to go through

6 all of them, but I just want to discuss a few of them with you.

7 The first one is the area that you labelled as number 6. Can you

8 please tell the Court what is it that you saw being shelled in that area?

9 A. This building circled by number 6, on the 5th of August in the

10 morning I was on my way to the UN camp with doctor. We were going to ask

11 for help with wounded in the hospital. As we were passing -- as we

12 passed over the railway bridge, I looked up and I could see through the

13 window, side window, the building. I could see big hole in the ceiling.

14 I actually could see the sky above.

15 Q. And what was -- what was that building that you saw?

16 A. At the ground floor of this building there was a shoe store. The

17 top floor was residential apartment.

18 Q. Was there any military presence either on that -- on the days

19 preceding this shoe store?

20 A. Not as far as I remember. Not around -- not in that area.

21 Q. Okay. On that trip to the UN compound did you notice any other

22 shelling?

23 A. The shelling was permanent, and it was all the way as we left the

24 hospital. Ahead of us, around, you know, on either side of the road.

25 And even when we entered the town, I could not see explosions any more,

Page 1397

1 but I could hear them.

2 When we nearly reach the UN camp, just as soon as we cross Krka

3 River I saw a bomb to fell onto a convoy of vehicles and tractors where

4 people were waiting obviously for the bombing to cease to pass through

5 the town.

6 Q. I believe that's in your supplemental statement. On your return

7 from -- from the UN camp after your first visit did you notice any other

8 shelling or any difference between your first trip and your return trip?

9 A. On our way back, again as soon as we crossed the railway bridge,

10 probably about 50 to 100 metres ahead there was a big hole in the middle

11 of the road which was not there on our way down to the UN camp.

12 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honours, at this time if we can have 65 ter

13 number 3759. And it's only seven seconds of that clip that I would like

14 to be marked for identification at this time, from 15 minutes 55 seconds

15 to 16 minutes and 2 seconds.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any text spoken on this clip?

17 MR. HEDARALY: No text.

18 JUDGE ORIE: There isn't. Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P59 marked for

20 identification.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Is this the road you say when you saw a shell?

24 A. Yes, it is. That hole was right -- well, actually on the left of

25 this vehicle which can be seen.

Page 1398

1 Q. And how -- how large was that hole in the middle of the road?

2 A. It's -- it's hard to tell. I would say probably -- could be

3 between -- anything between half metre to one metre in diameter.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask perhaps the witness with the cursor to

5 point at where exactly she sees the hole. Yes.

6 MR. HEDARALY: That was my next question, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Misetic.

8 MR. MISETIC: I was just going to ask if we could get some

9 guidance as to which number this is on the map.

10 MR. HEDARALY: That's going to be my next question just raised by

11 Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So first if the witness could draw our attention to

13 where the hole could be seen on the --

14 MR. HEDARALY: If the map could be --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Of course this is a video.

16 MR. HEDARALY: If the map could be placed on the ELMO so the

17 witness can refer to it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I have two different questions. The one is

19 where this location is in town. My question specifically to the witness

20 would be -- yes. Could I just see -- Ms. Grubor, could I ask you on this

21 picture on the screen at this moment do you see the hole you were

22 describing before, the hole in the road.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't understand specifically when.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think you told us -- let me just -- you're asked:

25 "Is this the road," after the video had been played, "when you saw a

Page 1399

1 shell?"

2 I take it that you were asked where you saw a shell. And then

3 you said, "Yes, it is -- the hole was right -- well, actually on the left

4 of this vehicle which can be seen."

5 Now, what can be seen, the vehicle can be seen or the hole can be

6 seen.

7 THE WITNESS: The vehicle.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And not the hole.

9 THE WITNESS: The vehicle on the picture.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And not the hole.

11 THE WITNESS: And not the hole.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that. The next thing was whether you

13 could point on this map that you've marked and the revised version where

14 exactly this is. Did you mark it by any number?

15 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, not. Then we would invite the witness to --

17 Mr. Misetic.

18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I have to again object. She's now

19 being asked about targets that are not on her map and have not been

20 disclosed in any proofing statement or anything which hinders our ability

21 to cross-examine. This is the first time this is being raised with us.

22 MR. HEDARALY: I believe that when the witness will show on the

23 map it was right around one the areas that was shelled. It's a

24 clarification question in what was in the area and what specifically was

25 there and what she saw being hit.

Page 1400

1 MR. MISETIC: I don't mind, Your Honour, clarification with the

2 witness but when they clarify and then don't disclose the clarification

3 it not only hinders our ability, but it also hinders the Trial Chamber's

4 ability to get all the facts and we're going to have to cross-examine

5 today without the benefit of having prepared on these questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's fair that if a witness marks a map with

7 a lot of places where, as the -- as the legend says where shelling was

8 seen, then of course it comes a bit of a surprise where we have there

9 listed five such incidents that suddenly in examination-in-chief a sixth

10 is added to it. I take it the Defence has done some investigative work

11 on what it may finds at places 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, and of course

12 could not prepare for this. First let's ask the witness where we are at

13 this moment but this certainly is a matter that should better be taken

14 care of in the near future and for the time being, we'll proceed and

15 we'll also see whether there's any need for the Defence to -- to get

16 additional time.

17 Could the witness first indicate on this map, that is map P58,

18 where this street, where next to the car a shell landed or whether she

19 saw a hole there. Could you tell us where that is? Perhaps first -- is

20 there a possibility to have P58 or do we have it on the screen at this

21 moment? No. We have -- could we get P58 on the screen again?

22 Yes. But now preferably the version which is the version -- I

23 see here we have two versions of the document, and now the -- I think we

24 need the other one. That is the one with typewritten --

25 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, perhaps it would be simpler to have

Page 1401

1 the witness place the map on the ELMO and we can refer to it for the

2 record that way and when she identifies the --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that would not allow us to -- if that would be

4 a good thing to do, that would not allow the witness to mark the place

5 and then that could be stored as a new exhibit. That is the -- we would

6 lose that opportunity.

7 MR. HEDARALY: I believe, Your Honour, that we'll be able to make

8 the record clear enough with respect to other markings.

9 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, of course, I'm a bit concerned, if

10 I ask for P58 and I get a document different from the one I consider to

11 be P58, that is of some concern. That could not be just repaired by

12 putting something on the ELMO.

13 Mr. Registrar, is there -- or ...

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I believe that we can assist

16 Mr. Registrar.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask you. I know you told us about a

18 second and more clear version of P58, but that one appears not to have

19 been uploaded in e-court, although we got a hard copy of that version.

20 MR. HEDARALY: It's upload at number 4832, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I then take it that P58 will now be the

22 document which is uploaded at 4832, and that now will become P58.

23 Yes. Now we have it on our screen. Perhaps could we ask the

24 witness where on this map the street is located where we saw the car and

25 where you said there was a hole next to that car. If you could start

Page 1402

1 with the cursor.

2 Is -- does that now indicate the place where we saw that car,

3 Ms. Grubor?

4 THE WITNESS: That's on the right from circle labelled number 10.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Just on the right of the circle labelled number 10,

6 and that is in the close vicinity to the bridge of the railway. Is

7 that --

8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's on the way back as soon as I passed

9 the bridge over the railway. It's somewhere -- we used to call this

10 place on the left small market, and there on the middle of the road

11 somewhere was big hole.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.


14 Q. How far away from the bridge was that -- was that hole?

15 A. I'm not that good at distance, but I would say probably couple

16 hundred metres or something like that.

17 Q. If we can turn to the area labelled as number 4 on your map.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, this is an aerial photograph. Do we

19 have a scale somewhere so that we can --

20 MR. HEDARALY: I don't believe that there is one on the -- on the

21 photograph itself, but I'm sure that we can provide one for the Trial

22 Chamber.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could try to agree with the Defence

24 that if we see aerial photographs, and especially if distances are asked

25 from witnesses, that it -- it says "No scale available" on the bottom,

Page 1403

1 but if it's not available you should take care that you get it. And I

2 take it that there are ways of getting a scale into this map. By knowing

3 distances you can measure them, you can set them out on such a map, so

4 that we know what we are talking about. Please proceed.


6 Q. And turning to the area labelled 4 which you had marked as the

7 police station, when did you see this police station being shelled?

8 A. It was late in night, in between 4th and 5th. I remember it was

9 late, probably about 1.00 in the morning, and I saw that big blaze,

10 explosion, down there.

11 Q. And where were you when you saw -- you saw this?

12 A. As far as I can remember, I was in hospital, and -- and what draw

13 our attention was it was night-time. It was just a big -- a number of

14 serial explosions, and -- like big blaze coming from that direction. I

15 could not tell it was a police station as it was far away, but it was

16 coming from that direction, and my common sense was telling me it could

17 be only police station.

18 Q. If I can turn your attention to the area that you had circled as

19 number 8. Can you -- can you please tell the Trial Chamber where you

20 were and what you observed more specifically?

21 A. Most of the shelling I observed on the 4th of August as most of

22 the day I spent in hospital. I have to say again that I had a better

23 view of hill areas rather than flat areas.

24 I saw bombs falling all over the place and just below the castle

25 hill.

Page 1404

1 Q. So was area 8 -- the area you circled at 8 on P58 a hill area?

2 A. Yes, that was a hill area and that's why I could see it.

3 Q. And if you could tell the Court what is generally in that area?

4 A. That's residential houses all this area from -- almost from point

5 6 up to this circle 8. It's mostly residential area.

6 Q. Were there any -- any shops, any restaurants, any cafes in that

7 area in addition to houses?

8 A. I can't -- the only restaurant that I know of that's -- that's --

9 there was a restaurant in the very castle. As soon as you enter the

10 castle there was a restaurant on the left, but not in this area here.

11 Q. And was there -- was there -- did you see at any time, let's say,

12 in the week before the 4th of August, any military presence in the area

13 that you circled as 8 on Exhibit P58?

14 A. I'm not sure that I can answer that question simply because I was

15 not coming frequently up to that area. Our main road was the place where

16 all of us were having shops or restaurants or bus station, but number 8

17 is a bit out of the way.

18 Q. And could you see the main road from when you went to the

19 hospital?

20 A. Sorry, can you repeat that question.

21 Q. Of course. From that vantage point at the hospital could you see

22 that main road or the area just below where you circled number 8?

23 A. No, no. No, I couldn't.

24 Q. If I could ask you similar questions with respect to area number

25 10. Where -- once again, where were you and what did you see more

Page 1405

1 specifically?

2 A. Same again. I was in the hospital. Number 10 is also a bit

3 rised on the hill, and that's why I had a good clear view of place from

4 the hospital.

5 Q. Is the hospital also slightly elevated?

6 A. Yeah, it is.

7 Q. And I'm just going to ask you for area 10. What kind of area was

8 that?

9 A. Residential houses.

10 Q. Only residential areas, only residential houses?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there any -- did you notice any military presence in the days

13 preceding August 4th in that area?

14 A. No. No. Friend of mine lived there. No, I didn't.

15 MR. HEDARALY: That's all I have, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

17 Before I give an opportunity to cross-examine the witness, I

18 would like to seek some clarification, a few points.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Grubor -- yes. In your 1998 statement, you

21 explain that you sent your daughter to Belgrade, and you -- in the

22 statement it says the following:

23 "There were rumours going around that the Croats will attack us,

24 but there were also rumours that the Serbs will try to regain control of

25 Bosansko Grahovo. When the shelling started, my first thought was that

Page 1406

1 the latter was now taking place." That is, the Serbs regaining.

2 Today in your testimony you said, when asked whether you had any

3 specific fears, you said, "Yes, I did. I saw withdrawal of Serbian

4 soldiers from Grahovo after Grahovo was taken over. I just had a fear

5 that the very next step may be another attack towards my place, Knin, and

6 I did not want my five-year-old daughter to be there present if that

7 happened."

8 Now, from what I understand, at that moment Knin was still

9 Serb-controlled area.

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So in your written statement on the one hand you

12 say, "What I had expected as a matter of fact was -- first thing I

13 expected was a Serb attack rather than a Croatian attack," whereas in

14 your testimony today when asked about a specific fear you're referring to

15 a Croatian attack on Knin rather than a Serb effort to regain Grahovo.

16 A. Not this exactly. This statement was -- this was -- I sent my

17 daughter away about six days prior to the event of -- that took place on

18 4th of August. However, probably two, three days prior to this event

19 there were rumours that there is going to be a major counter-attack by

20 Serbs on Croats' positions in order to get Grahovo back and other areas.

21 However, that was just probably two or three days before this event took

22 place, and majority of the male population, soldiers, I mean all of them

23 were in soldiers, were sent away towards Bosnia from our area. So that's

24 when the bombing started. I was not sure whether it was artillery, fire

25 done by Serbs from somewhere or by Croats. That was 5.00 in the morning.

Page 1407

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What you say is that the situation,

2 expectations, and circumstances changed very quickly in that period of

3 time, which also had an impact on what you expected to happen.

4 A. Of course it did, because as I said, the last couple days prior

5 to this event -- during the wartime all of us are hoping for the best,

6 for something to end up, for something to come to resolution, and

7 everyone is hoping for best for him, but, however, there were rumours

8 that Serbs are going to take over Grahovo and few other places in order

9 to get stability and security, let's say, road towards Serbia which at

10 the time was our only supply of everything in Krajina.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Totally different question, very short one.

12 You explained to us what happened and what you saw from the glass

13 doors --

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the hospital when elderly come came in with a

16 severe stroke and what happened, the car being hit. Could you remember

17 what time of the day that was?

18 A. I would say on Thursday, sometime afternoon. I know it was not

19 dark yet. It was probably about -- between 2.00 and 4.00 afternoon, but

20 I can't be precise.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

22 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, if I may just clarify for the record.

23 There were two incidents, the one with the glass door was not the elderly

24 woman. There were the two men that were taken. I think the witness

25 understood the question, but just to clarify the record.

Page 1408

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'm mistaken there. Yes, yes. I'm -- yes.

2 It's not about the elderly lady. The incident that took place between

3 the 2.00 and 4.00 you were referring to --

4 A. To the glass door.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- the car. A glass door where you saw a car and

6 you saw the car being damaged --

7 A. Outside the hospital.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- outside the hospital yes.

9 MR. MISETIC: If I could just clarify I'm not sure that she said

10 it was being damaged in front of the hospital.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We could check that, but what exactly happened to

12 the car I think she said there was a hole in the car, but I'll check

13 that. It is at least clear that's what you saw when you were behind the

14 glass doors with 78 per cent of view on the hospital premises.

15 Then my last question is: You were asked about paragraph 10 of

16 your 2007 statement, and I read it slowly to you. You said in the

17 statement: "I don't even remember seeing any RSK vehicle. I saw a few

18 soldiers walking around the city but no group or organised group of

19 soldiers."

20 I understood this as a reference to RSK soldiers, but if that's

21 wrongly understood please tell me.

22 A. That's RSK soldiers.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

24 Mr. Misetic, from the fact that you're on your feet I take it

25 that the agreed order of cross-examination is that the Gotovina Defence

Page 1409

1 starts first.

2 MR. MISETIC: That is correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Grubor, you'll now be cross-examined by

4 Mr. Misetic, who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

8 Q. Good morning, Ms. Grubor.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Just some background clarification. You indicated that you are

11 today a police officer; is that correct?

12 A. Yeah, that's right.

13 Q. You were not a police officer in 1995; is that correct?

14 A. No, I wasn't.

15 Q. Did you have any type of police training in 1995?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. In terms of your training as a police officer today, are you

18 involved in investigative work as a police officer? Criminal

19 investigative work.

20 A. I joined the police force in New Zealand three years ago, mainly

21 spending last three years on front line. Just recent, two, three months

22 I am into family violence.

23 Q. Family violence.

24 A. Unit.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 1410

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, the expression "front line" is known

2 to me in military terms, not specifically in police terms. May I take it

3 that it is patrolling on the street, being out rather than being behind

4 your desk.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly. That is responding to calls,

6 incident responding, which is shift work and any kind of job, urgent job.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. It's just my ignorance in this field.

8 Please proceed.


10 Q. Both the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber asked you some

11 questions about your decision to send your daughter to Serbia. You said

12 it was six days before Operation Storm, so would it be safe to say that

13 it was 30 July 1995 when you sent your daughter?

14 A. I can't remember the date. I know it was -- I think it was

15 Saturday.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Prior to those events.

18 Q. And how did your daughter make it to Serbia, by what means of

19 transportation?

20 A. There was some road which was not official road to leave Knin and

21 go through the area of Lika. I never went that road myself. It -- later

22 I learned it was not even asphalt road. It was a metal road.

23 Q. But what means of transportation did she take?

24 A. Every -- there was a bus. Every morning bus was leaving Knin

25 going to Belgrade.

Page 1411

1 Q. And were many people putting families on these buses to take them

2 to Serbia, to your knowledge?

3 A. I would say there were probably about 150 people more around the

4 bus. So I would say if the bus takes about 50 people, probably out of

5 those 150 I would say probably 100 of them wanted to least area, but

6 there was no enough place in the bus.

7 Q. Were you told that people were putting their families on buses

8 and sending them to Serbia before you decided to send your daughter?

9 A. That fall of Grahovo, it was Friday in my recollection. I ask

10 hospital driver to take me to my village to take my daughter as a woman

11 next door, a neighbour, had already booked the ticket on that bus for

12 Serbia. I ask her for a favour to take my daughter with her and just to

13 contact my brother and give him my daughter until I see what is

14 happening.

15 Q. Were you aware prior to your decision to put your daughter on the

16 bus that Mr. Martic had declared a state of war?

17 A. I thought that there was a state of war declared five years

18 earlier, in 1990.

19 Q. But that there was another official proclamation after the fall

20 of Grahovo by the so-called RSK government?

21 A. If it was, I don't know of. It maybe, but ...

22 Q. You spoke in answer to the Presiding Judge's question concerning

23 the events in Grahovo, you said that the soldiers were going towards

24 Bosnia, and in your statement you said that there were rumours that the

25 Serbs will try to regain control of Bosansko Grahovo. Were you aware

Page 1412

1 that there was a, in fact, a planned military operation known as

2 Operation Dinara 95?

3 A. As I said about two days prior to this event there were -- there

4 were lots of rumours as all of us who lived in the area were scared and

5 terrified after Grahovo was taken over, and there were rumours that

6 soldiers of Krajina are going to Bosnia to regain control, to get all

7 their territory back, but that's all just rumours, and I wouldn't be 100

8 per cent sure of what was going on.

9 Q. You were working in the hospital, which is why I'm going to ask

10 you these next few questions. Were you aware that around the 30th of

11 July the RSK authorities had evacuated the village of Strmica of

12 civilians and used that as a staging area for the military?

13 A. No. I wasn't.

14 Q. Were there people that were perhaps moved that were coming into

15 the hospital from Strmica around that time?

16 A. All -- the only thing, it was since fall of Grahovo in relation

17 to civilians, I have heard of some woman going to help to dig the

18 shelters or something, channels somewhere, but I wouldn't even be able to

19 tell where.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters notes please pause between

21 question and answer. Thank you.


23 Q. In paragraph 7 of your 2007 statement you were asked about

24 preparations that would be made about an attack. You said, for example,

25 moving equipment and supplies in the basement. I would like you to show

Page 1413

1 you a video clip right now. This is from the morning of the 4th of

2 August. If you could take a look at this video, please?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Before -- perhaps before we play it I would like to

4 show from Mr. Hedaraly first whether the video clip that was shown to us

5 earlier, was that the same video material we have looked at before and

6 where we were -- at least it was suggested that there were two different

7 versions of that?

8 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, Your Honour. It was a short clip from the

9 video that was shown by the Gotovina Defence on -- last week.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, was it the edited version or was it the

11 raw material that was shown?

12 MR. HEDARALY: I believe it was the raw material, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It was the raw material here. So we don't have to

14 look behind every car to see whether there's -- because I heard there was

15 some birds singing on that video and sound appears to be an important

16 matter when looking at videos. So that's the raw material. That's

17 clear.

18 Now, the video that we're now looking at, Mr. Misetic, is what

19 exactly? Where does it come from? If you prefer to first put it to the

20 witness and then give the information that's fine as well as far as I'm

21 concerned.

22 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

23 MR. HEDARALY: Well, Your Honour.


25 MR. HEDARALY: If I may, I mean Mr. Misetic represented it was

Page 1414

1 from the 4th so I think it makes more sense to have the source of the

2 video --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I allowed specifically Mr. Misetic to first show it

4 and first hear the answers of the witness, and I exactly did that in

5 order to avoid any exercise of influence on the witness knowing the

6 background of the video. So let's look at it. Let's hear the answers to

7 the questions, and then we'll learn what the background --

8 MR. MISETIC: That's precisely why I wanted the witness to say if

9 she could identify it for us.


11 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, the number is 1D14-0001, and if it

12 could be given an exhibit number, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any text spoken on it?

14 MR. MISETIC: We've eliminated the audio because we're just

15 interested in the pictures, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar. That would be Exhibit.

17 THE REGISTRAR: D68 marked for identification, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: D68 exclusively the images and not any sound.

19 Please proceed.

20 [Videotape played]


22 Q. Ms. Grubor, were you able to watch the video?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The man that looked to be speaking in a white outfit, did you

25 recognise him?

Page 1415

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Can you identify for the Court who that is?

3 A. That is Dr. Goran Jejina.

4 Q. And do you recognise the location where that was filmed?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Did it look like the basement of the hospital to you?

7 A. That looked like single -- those wires along the hall, but I was

8 not there at the time of the attack. I was upstairs.

9 Q. You --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please slow down.

11 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

12 Q. On the 4th of August did you ever go to the basement of the

13 hospital?

14 A. Yes, I did. Not into the operating room. We were all working as

15 physical forces taking wounded down to the basement, leaving them there

16 and going upstairs, taking the stretchers back.

17 Q. So you are aware then that the surgical room had been in the

18 basement?

19 A. I knew they were doing all surgical requirements down in the

20 basement. Everyone was evacuated from the upper floors.

21 Q. Prior to the 4th of August was it usual to perform surgeries in

22 the basement?

23 A. No, it wasn't.

24 Q. Why was -- why were surgeries being performed in the basement on

25 the 4th of August?

Page 1416

1 A. The common sense would be as soon as the bombing started to take

2 everyone down to the lower floors, basement, and bomb shelter in order to

3 prevent -- to protect people.

4 Q. Do you know if the basement was equipped with any supplemental

5 power like a generator or something to that effect?

6 A. We had during the wartime quite often power being cut. The

7 generator would be used every time in hospital whenever there was a cut

8 of power.

9 Q. How much power could the generators supply? In other words,

10 how -- let's me rephrase that.

11 For how many days or hours could the generator supply power when

12 the power was cut, if you know?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, this is a -- apparently a complex

14 technical question which is introduced in a rather simple way.

15 MR. MISETIC: Just if she knows from working in the hospital

16 whether there was power for days or the generator would only work for

17 half day and they would be without power in the hospital. Just from her

18 basic knowledge.

19 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Let's first hear the answer of the

20 witness and then I may say a few words about it.

21 THE WITNESS: I would never be able to answer that question. I

22 know during that we in hospital during the wartime never run out of power

23 and I knew that it was due to that generator, but I wouldn't know how

24 long it could run.

25 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

Page 1417

1 JUDGE ORIE: If you have dealt with it, I'll tell you what my

2 concern was. You're asking about a generator where usually it's about

3 fuel rather than about generators not being able to perform for a longer

4 period of time. So therefore by focusing on the generator you might

5 implicitly ask for fuel conditions, which is of course a rather different

6 matter. That's the reason why I -- I expressed some concern about the

7 question. Please proceed.

8 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I'm reminded to ask if we could have D68

9 admitted.

10 JUDGE ORIE: D68. Any objections?

11 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, we don't have any objection for the

12 admission, but I think it would be helpful for everyone if we could have

13 the sound of the video since someone is talking for the major part of it.

14 But for the purpose --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what he is telling us. I take it that

16 has been disclosed to you, so you can check that with your language

17 assistant -- has not been disclosed?

18 MR. MISETIC: Yes. We got it from the Prosecution, I believe,

19 so --

20 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore if the Defence says it's not relevant,

21 well, if the text would be, well, it's hard work on this Christmas Day,

22 then of course I may take it that the Prosecution has a specific interest

23 in hearing that text, whereas as far as I understand the only thing we

24 have done here is we have seen a doctor known to the witness in a place

25 unknown to the witness although it might be the basement, and the witness

Page 1418

1 telling us in the basement surgical activity took place.

2 I rather have an issue on what rather than the relevance is in

3 addition to what the witness told us, because she did not identify that

4 specific place as the basement. It looks very much as a medical

5 environment, but -- so therefore is there no objection then. Please

6 check the sound and see whether there's anything interesting for you on

7 it and then we'll hear from you. Yes?

8 MR. HEDARALY: Noted, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then D68 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm about to change topics and I note

11 this might be an appropriate time for the first break, but I will

12 obviously following your guidance.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'd have the break now. We will

14 resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, if you're ready to continue, please do

18 so.

19 MR. MISETIC: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Ms. Grubor, the Knin hospital was the main hospital in Sector

21 South; is that correct?

22 A. Yeah, that's right.

23 Q. And it was the only hospital in Sector South that had a surgical

24 ward?

25 A. Yes, that's right, as far as I know.

Page 1419

1 Q. Would it be fair to say that any seriously wounded people in

2 Sector South requiring surgery would have [Realtime transcript read in

3 error "been"] had to be transported to the Knin hospital?

4 A. I think so.

5 Q. Now, we talked about --

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, I understood you saying would

7 have to be transported. Is that what you asked, or did I misunderstand

8 you?

9 MR. MISETIC: Have to be transported, yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but here it says would have been transported,

11 which is not exactly the same.

12 MR. MISETIC: I think I said would have to be transported.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Would have to be transported. Which is that -- yes.

14 MR. MISETIC: Hypothetically speaking, yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And would have been transported is more factual.

16 Therefore, the transcript does not fully reflect your words, but it now

17 does. Please proceed.

18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Mr. Registrar if we could call up 1D14-0002.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, when it's being uploaded could you at

21 the same time give us a number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that becomes Exhibit D69, marked for

23 identification.

24 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 2 of this document. It is

25 an Associated Press report from the 4th of August, and I believe it's

Page 1420

1 paragraph 6. If we could blow that up.

2 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, obviously I don't know what question

3 my colleague will ask, but I don't know if it makes sense for the witness

4 to be -- to have a chance to look at the whole document for the context

5 of, which will be asked --

6 JUDGE ORIE: It very much depends on the question. So therefore

7 perhaps we should wait for the question then find out.

8 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I will show her two documents, Your Honour.

9 Actually, one document and then another piece of evidence and then ask

10 her some questions about this topic.

11 Q. I don't know if you can see that, but there is a one-sentence

12 paragraph there that says: "The town hospital --"

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have it enlarged in such a way

14 that --

15 MR. MISETIC: It's paragraph 6, Mr. Registrar.

16 Q. "The town hospital, forced to operate from its basement,

17 reported eight civilians brought in, one of whom died. Another man was

18 reported killed in his car."

19 And I would like to ask you related to this topic about how many

20 people were killed, you indicate in your statement that you were -- you

21 went with a Dr. Torbica to the UN compound on the morning of the 5th of

22 August; is that correct?

23 A. Yeah, that's correct.

24 Q. Okay. And you spoke to two gentlemen who appeared at the UN

25 gate?

Page 1421

1 A. I did not talk to anyone. I said at time I did not speak English

2 at all.

3 Q. Was there translator?

4 A. There was a translator Dr. Igor Torbica took charge and he spoke

5 to them.

6 Q. So were you able to follow the discussion through the

7 interpreter?

8 A. I can't remember to be honest. It was such a rush and panic that

9 it was just briefly spoken and we left a few minutes afterwards.

10 Q. Okay. Well, one of the UN peacekeepers in recounting your visit

11 with them on the morning of the 5th told the Office of the Prosecutor,

12 and I quote: "The Serb doctor that we spoke to the day before refused

13 our help related to us a number of stories --" sorry let me put it in

14 context. "It was about the same time that the Serb doctor from the day

15 before approached the gate, and this time he was asking for our help

16 rather than us offering the hospital help. The Serb doctor that we spoke

17 to the day before refused our help, related to us a number of stories,

18 and when we questioned him as to how many were killed or how many dead

19 were in the hospital, he maintained that only seven people were killed

20 during the offensive, which made both Colonel Leslie and myself sort of

21 laugh at his story."

22 My question for you, Ms. Grubor, is you were present for that

23 discussion. Do you recall Dr. Torbica telling the UN that only seven

24 people had been killed during the offensive?

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 1422

1 Q. Do you remember a discussion about how many people were killed?

2 A. No simply because at the time Mr. Torbica communicated in English

3 down there. Like I said I learned English once I emigrated to

4 New Zealand.

5 Q. Let me show you a document. This is a protocol -- Mr. Registrar,

6 it is 1D14-0145, and if we could get an exhibit number for us. It is a

7 protocol prepared by the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

8 Croatia, which identifies all bodies buried in Sector South during,

9 before and after Operation Storm including the locations that the bodies

10 were found.

11 Mr. President, I will advise you that the Prosecution has the

12 document. I believe that the whole document has not been translated

13 because it is 26 pages. So we translated just the first 16 names because

14 we believe it's relevant to this cross-examination but the whole document

15 has not been translated although it will be -- appear before you here in

16 Croatian.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objections in using this in this way, an

18 only partially translated document.

19 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar for the record the B/C/S --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I remember there has been some discussion I take it

21 with the Chamber's staff about -- was it about this document? A list

22 where the Chamber said that if at least the heading and the most

23 important entries are translated that everyone would find its way through

24 this document.

25 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1423

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

2 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar the B/C/S ID is 1D14-0121.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then it needs a number this document but before we

4 assign a number to this one, could I ask whether there are any objections

5 against the D69, that is the Associated Press report.

6 MR. HEDARALY: I'm not sure that a question was put to the

7 witness with respect to that, and she said she didn't know so I don't

8 think there's a foundation for that document, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, reference was made to what was described in

10 this report and to some extent the witness I think confirmed that a

11 Serbian doctor had been speaking to, but that she was not able to follow

12 that conversation.

13 Now, Mr. Misetic, just a glance of that document shows that there

14 is a lot of information on the document. I take it you are not seeking

15 the Chamber to rely upon.

16 MR. MISETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Burning houses and attacks and all these kind of

18 things, and the number of shells that fell in the centre of Knin.

19 MR. MISETIC: Absolutely.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless you're seeking --

21 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- that [overlapping speakers]

23 MR. MISETIC: I can withdraw the exhibit if the -- if Your

24 Honours don't --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then D69 is vacated. It was an Associated Press

Page 1424

1 report, not something to rely upon.

2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then so we now I take it Mr. Registrar that we have

4 now -- this new Republic of Croatia Ministry of the Interior document

5 would then be D69? Is that --

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, that's correct. D69 marked

7 for identification.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

9 MR. MISETIC: Just --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Or could we already -- I see that there's no

11 objections from the Prosecution, Mr. Hedaraly, so therefore it's D69 now

12 the new document is admitted into evidence please proceed.

13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour just as a technical matter should I

14 wait for the Croatian version to be put on the screen as well? I'm sorry

15 I'm advised it has to be linked, so I'll proceed with the questions.

16 Q. Ms. Grubor, in the protocol prepared by the Croatian government

17 there were 16 bodies found in the Knin hospital when Croatian authorities

18 arrived. You were in the hospital on that day. Do you recognise the

19 names of any of these people as having been brought to the hospital on

20 the 4th?

21 A. I don't recognise any of the names here.

22 Q. The status of the person as at least identified by the Croatian

23 authorities is also -- also appears on this document. Do you have any

24 reason to challenge the classification or the status of these

25 individuals?

Page 1425

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are there any people that you know of by name or otherwise that

3 were killed and in the hospital on the 4th that do not appear on this

4 list?

5 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean that were

6 killed in the hospital?

7 Q. Sorry. Any bodies that you know of that were in the Knin

8 hospital on the 4th and who do not appear on this list, assuming of

9 course that you know the names of such people?

10 A. I would know the names only -- only of the people that were

11 transported with -- with us to the UN camp. If you ask me for the names

12 of wounded, I would not know any of them.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. I mean, who were submitted in hospital that they -- except other

15 ones which I learn later on in UN camp.

16 Q. When patients were brought to the hospital on the 4th of August

17 would you -- let me clarify further. Would the hospital staff record the

18 names of those patients to the extent possible?

19 A. I believe so, yes.

20 Q. To the extent that the person was brought in already deceased to

21 the hospital, would the hospital staff attempt to identify the deceased?

22 A. I wouldn't know about that one. I was taking care of wounded.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, just for my understanding, these

24 questions, are they put to the witness in order to establish that this

25 witness would not be aware of any more than 16 persons being killed and

Page 1426

1 found in the Knin hospital on the 4th of August?

2 MR. MISETIC: I'm about to ask her questions to that effect, Your

3 Honour, because it is our position that 16 were found in the hospital

4 when Croatian authorities arrived, and now I'd like to explore with her

5 the basis if -- the basis that she may have for a higher --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The last question whether there was any reason

7 she would think of any other person.

8 I don't know whether you were aware, but the question was put to

9 you whether in your recollection the number of persons killed and found

10 on the 4th of August in Knin hospital was limited to 16 or whether there

11 more.

12 THE WITNESS: I did not work in the morgue. I was not there.

13 Twice when I was passing by the door was not locked properly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for an explanation at this moment. I

15 just want to know for sure that you well understood that question whether

16 you were considering that 16 is a number and that you have no reasons to

17 believe that it was more. No question was asked about less. Whether you

18 were aware of the question that was put to you, and you've answered that

19 you had no reason to believe that there were more.

20 THE WITNESS: As I stated here in my statement, I -- I hear from

21 the other staff who were down there frequently saying that there is over

22 100 dead, and they don't have anywhere to store them any more.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Mr. Misetic, of course I'm not saying

24 that your question was not correctly phrased in legal terms. At the same

25 time, it appeared to me that the witness, although there was a correct

Page 1427

1 formulation, might not have understood the gist of what was really asked

2 of her and I would --

3 MR. MISETIC: That's fine.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- like witnesses to know exactly what they're

5 saying when they're asking your questions.

6 MR. MISETIC: If I could just clarify. I may have been

7 inarticulate enough that you also didn't understand what my point was,

8 which was just to ask the witness having been a resident of Knin whether

9 there may have been people whom she knew of --

10 JUDGE ORIE: But you also asked of unknown persons. If you would

11 not have done that -- you were not limited your question to known persons

12 I think. Let me just check but I think I re-read it. That's exactly --

13 let me just check --

14 MR. MISETIC: The question I have at line -- line -- page 45,

15 line 20, Your Honour, I believe I ended the question by saying,

16 "...assuming of course that you know the names of such people."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 45, line 15: "Are there any people that you

18 know of by name or otherwise." Now, to me a fact that there is a body --

19 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- is knowing otherwise. So therefore at least your

21 questions then in this respect, if -- assuming of course if you know the

22 names of such people is a bit in contradiction with your earlier

23 question.

24 MR. MISETIC: As I said before Your Honour I was a bit

25 inarticulate and I apologise to the Trial Chamber.

Page 1428


2 MR. HEDARALY: Just a note of clarification, Your Honour, on D69

3 I just slipped quickly through the B/C/S version and although my B/C/S is

4 rather limited it seemed at least that at page 132 of D69 there are two

5 more bodies that would have been found at the hospital, Bolnica Knin, I

6 believe means Knin hospital; so I just clarify that maybe there are more

7 than 16.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps something for re-examination. Let's first

9 wait and see.

10 MR. MISETIC: I can clarify, Your Honour.


12 MR. MISETIC: They are in sequential time order as to when they

13 appeared, so I'm talking about the 4th and 5th of August.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So let's move on and hear from the witness rather

15 than from ourselves.


17 Q. You said in your 1998 statement, Ms. Grubor, that the -- excuse

18 me, that the RSK was bringing in wounded troops to the hospital; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Wounded soldiers. Which -- which paragraph you're referring to?

21 MR. MISETIC: I'll find it for you. I believe it's page 3 of

22 your statement. Third paragraph. Towards the middle. You say:

23 "It is difficult to say from where the wounded and the killed

24 were brought in. I only know that they were brought in by RSK troops and

25 UNPROFOR troops from the Kenyan Battalion."

Page 1429

1 A. Yeah, that's correct.

2 Q. Now, the RSK troops were bringing people in; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. They were bringing in soldiers?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. Do you know what kind of vehicles they were using to transport

7 wounded?

8 A. I would not know.

9 Q. Were they military vehicles?

10 A. I don't know. As I said, occasionally I would have a glance

11 through the front door, but I was altogether probably once out of the

12 hospital during all that event.

13 Q. What you -- would that also be -- you say you occasionally would

14 glance through the front door and you probably went out once during all

15 that event. So you didn't have an opportunity then to actually see

16 whether there was a tank outside the hospital?

17 A. No. On that day, no, I haven't been outside. I was probably

18 once, but it was just for a minute to help the person in.

19 Q. Now, I'd like to show you another video. This is a video footage

20 taken of the Knin hospital on the 5th, 6th and 7th of August.

21 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, this is 1D14-0146 and if it could be

22 given a number, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Any text?


25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D70 marked for

Page 1430

1 identification.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Ms. Grubor, do you recognise the building here? Not here, I mean

5 in the video we watched.

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And what is that?

8 A. I recognised the hospital in Knin.

9 Q. And is that the way the hospital looked on the 5th of August?

10 A. I did not have a chance to look from that angle. During the day

11 as I said, I did not go out.

12 MR. MISETIC: If we could reply the video. I'd like to stop at

13 it one point.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. Ms. Grubor, is that the front entrance to the hospital?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And off to the left there --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you identify what that object is at the end of the walkway

21 into the hospital there?

22 A. That was a shield, I think, protecting from the wind or something

23 like that.

24 Q. What was the shield made out of?

25 A. I can't remember.

Page 1431

1 Q. Was it a form of glass?

2 A. Not as far as I can remember.

3 Q. This car that you said pulled up with wounded on the 4th, can you

4 tell the Court where that car was located when you said you looked

5 through the door?

6 A. If I looked through the door it is just lightly left from this

7 shield but on the opposite side near the curb where the car-park was.

8 Q. So it would be on the outside part of the shield?

9 A. Outside part of the shield.

10 Q. And so what angle then would -- let me ask a different question.

11 Are you able -- when you're standing in the hospital, are you able to

12 look through the shield and see what's -- what is on the outside of the

13 shield?

14 A. Not through the shield, but I can see on either side of the

15 shield from inside the hospital.

16 Q. Okay. And in your testimony earlier today, when a car pulled up

17 had it already suffered damage or was it damaged at the hospital?

18 A. I did not see a car pulling up. After I hear what happened I

19 went closer to the door and I could see there was a red car. In my

20 recollection it was, you know, a hole or something like that, and I could

21 see the hole in the back door, back passenger door. So I would not -- I

22 did not witness that occurring, did you just out of curiosity I did look

23 through the door.

24 Q. Okay. Now, you discuss in your statement the transfer of

25 patients -- I'm sorry.

Page 1432

1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm again reminded if we could admit

2 D68.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Any --

4 MR. HEDARALY: No objections, Your Honour.

5 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry, D70. I apologise.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, D70. You also more or less promised us to give

7 us the background of this video material. This had seems to be --

8 MR. MISETIC: This is --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Hrvatska television.

10 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And the other one.

12 MR. MISETIC: It's called APTV, Your Honour, and we're in the

13 process of disclosing it to the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And APTV stands for Associated Press TV.

15 MR. MISETIC: I have to admit I don't know Your Honour. I will

16 check on the break.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes the Chamber would like to receive information

18 about who produced that material or who broadcasted this. Please

19 proceed.

20 Yes, no objections against this video footage, Mr. Hedaraly?

21 MR. HEDARALY: No objection against D70, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No objection, so it is admitted into evidence.


24 Q. Sorry just a few more questions. As we're watching it, was there

25 any damage to the Knin hospital that you know of from events that

Page 1433

1 occurred on the 4th and the 5th of August?

2 A. At some stage on the afternoon, 4th of August, I did pick a

3 shrapnel from the hospital stairwell.

4 Q. Where would that be located?

5 A. It's -- there's -- there are the stairs that lead up to the upper

6 floors, and I can't recall exactly which was it in between basement and

7 ground floor that there were -- there was a broken glass and few

8 shrapnels on the stairs. I picked one. I mean, I have even now that one

9 back at my parents' place in Belgrade.

10 Q. If you can tell us on any of these pictures of the outside of the

11 hospital, would the staircase that you're talking about be on any of --

12 inside of any one of these windows, let's say?

13 A. Not on this side. This is north side. The stairwell is on the

14 south side of the hospital.

15 Q. If you see the location, please tell us to stop the video.

16 A. Just a moment. So completely on the opposite side from here. So

17 that would be -- not this one.

18 Q. We'll start it one more time and see if you see anything.

19 A. I did not see any of the -- I did not see to be recorded from

20 southern side. That's -- that's still north side. This is also northern

21 side.

22 Q. Okay. So it's on the south side of the hospital?

23 A. On south side of hospital.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. In your 2007 statement, Ms. Grubor --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, could we further explore this in some

Page 1434

1 detail.

2 You said you found shrapnel south side. Do you remember about --

3 you told us about shelling, et cetera. What we have seen now on these

4 pictures relating to the 5th, the 6th, and apparently the 7th of August

5 is the outside of the hospital which was exposed to shelling or fire. If

6 at least you know which side was exposed to it, has that been shown on

7 this video or has it not?

8 THE WITNESS: Sorry, which can you clarify the question. What

9 was --

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]

11 THE WITNESS: Which was exposed to the shelling.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm trying to find out whether we saw a minute

13 ago which where the images say it was the 5th and the 6th and the 7th of

14 August whether that's true or not is still another matter, but whether

15 the outside images of the hospital included those parts of the hospital

16 so that to the extent your knowledge goes was exposed to fire of whatever

17 kind.

18 THE WITNESS: In my opinion at the time, the shelling was coming

19 from the mountain of Dinara, and which is positioned somewhere, let's

20 say, east of the hospital and from the southern side which was from

21 direction of the town Drnis. But that's just my opinion. I would not be

22 100 per cent sure about that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And were those sides where as far as you could tell

24 us the shelling did come from, were those side of the hospital shown on

25 these images? That is if the --

Page 1435

1 THE WITNESS: No, if --

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- fire would come from the south, it would be the

3 south.

4 THE WITNESS: We saw here the west side of hospital and north

5 side of hospital and not southern and east side of hospital.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.


8 Q. 2007 statement, paragraph 2, you say: "I was told by Drazenka

9 Koluvija, that 120 of the wounded," and now you're speaking about the

10 night between the 4th act 5th, "maybe half many them were men in uniforms

11 but I cannot be sure exactly, were taken out of the hospital during the

12 night to Kravlja Draga a place where they intended to create a field

13 hospital." Could you fell us why they were moving patients out of the

14 hospital?

15 A. That's one of the things I was hearing from other staff. I did

16 not play any part in making decisions or anything like that so all

17 information that I have about that is from the other staff.

18 Q. Did the other staff tell you why patients were being moved out of

19 the hospital?

20 A. During the day on 4th of August, majority of us were urging for

21 some action to take away wounded as there was no any -- there was no any

22 more place to put them in the basement. It was fully packed, and at the

23 time we did not know how long it may last and how many more people we can

24 expect, and lots of us there were urging for some action to be done for

25 wounded to be taken away and to release pressure on hospital.

Page 1436

1 Q. Well, then on the morning of the 5th, 120 had been removed from

2 the hospital; correct?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Only 35 patients were left?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Why then did you have to move the patients out of the hospital

7 into the UN camp? Let me ask a different question before I ask that.

8 You said these 35 I believe in your statement you say in your statement

9 at paragraph 2 there were 35 patients left behind in the hospital because

10 they were not in a state where they could have gotten on the bus or the

11 trucks. It's safe to say these were seriously wounded people?

12 A. Yeah, that's right.

13 Q. If now the hospital had only 35 people left and these people were

14 so seriously wounded that they couldn't be transported by bus or by

15 truck, why move them from the hospital to the UN compound?

16 A. On the 5th of August, that was the second day, after so much

17 shelling and bombing was going on we realised that we were not getting

18 any more wounded. No one was coming to hospital. They did not have any

19 security, any protection there at the hospital grounds. That was the

20 time when we started talking about our personal security and security of

21 our wounded to go somewhere to safe place. In fact, I myself was talking

22 about leaving the place and following the other civilians which I saw

23 leaving the town towards Bosnia and Serbia. In my belief something was

24 wrong there, and we wanted to put wounded under UN protection rather than

25 leaving them in hospital in case if Croatian soldiers come in.

Page 1437

1 Q. You did not want them to be taken as prisoners of war --

2 A. No, I wanted them to be under UN protection, not whatever

3 happened them after.

4 Q. Now, you were at the compound when Dr. Torbica was asking the UN

5 to help him evacuate the patients. The UN in that discussion say that

6 they don't have a mandate to move people from a hospital simply because

7 you don't want them to fall in the hands of Croatian forces?

8 A. Sorry, I don't understand what your question is.

9 Q. In the conversation between Dr. Torbica and the UN?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did the personnel tell Dr. Torbica that the UN does not have a

12 mandate to move seriously wounded patients from a hospital into their

13 compound simply to help them avoid become prisoners of war?

14 A. Probably Dr. Torbica would be relevant person to answer that

15 question.

16 Q. You were present though and I'm asking you.

17 A. As I said I did not understand English at the time, and as I said

18 from hospital we wanted wounded to be taken to UN camp.

19 Q. Did you participate in the convoys that then took patients from

20 the hospital and into the UN camp?

21 A. In which way participate?

22 Q. Travel with the patients as they were being moved from the

23 hospital and into the UN camp.

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Do you know how many trips were made to evacuate the patients

Page 1438

1 from the hospital and into the UN camp?

2 A. Two trips.

3 Q. Two trips. Do you know if any hospital staff went on these

4 trips, these two trips?

5 A. I -- in my recollection I don't think that anyone -- could be one

6 person, but I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm not sure.

7 Q. Who -- as the first group of patients was being delivered to the

8 UN compound was there any medical staff left with that group to provide

9 medical attention to them that you know of?

10 A. You mean in the UN camp?

11 Q. In the UN camp, yes.

12 A. No, I wouldn't be able to answer that. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know if the UN camp had any critical care facilities

14 within it to be able to treat these patients?

15 A. At the time I did not know. I guessed that they did, but I did

16 not confirm that.

17 Q. You spent some time in the camp afterwards. Did you subsequently

18 find out what the capabilities were in the UN compound to provide care to

19 wounded patients?

20 A. I know they did have few staff down there, some type of -- I

21 think Czech people were in charge of medical care, but I'm not sure what

22 extent they were able to help.

23 Q. Okay. The next portion of your statement I wish to discuss is

24 the death of Nikola Grujic. This is page 3 of your 1998 statement, the

25 last paragraph.

Page 1439

1 You say in the middle of the paragraph:

2 "On Saturday morning a man named Grujic, first name unknown,

3 arrived on foot to the hospital. He had been hit by shrapnel outside his

4 house in Knin. He later died in hospital."

5 Was Nikola -- sorry. Was this Grujic from Knin or did he live in

6 Drnis?

7 A. I have no idea. I just remember him walking in the hospital

8 saying that he was -- that he received hit by shrapnel, and I have no

9 idea where his house was or where he lived. I have nothing. I didn't

10 even get his first name.

11 Q. Did he tell you that he had been struck by shrapnel while

12 standing outside the Tvik factory?

13 A. I have no idea. He was urgently submitted down to the basement,

14 and I don't know what his statement was.

15 Q. Now, he'd like to take you back to your transcript from today,

16 page 24. Let me ask -- let me ask you some preliminary questions first.

17 In your statement you say, again page 4, 1998, third paragraph --

18 sorry. Hold on. Page 3, second paragraph from the bottom. You say:

19 "It was late Friday evening when I walked to the ECMM

20 headquarters, which was nearby the hospital, to say good-bye to my

21 friends, civilians from the neighbourhood."

22 First, can you tell us why you felt the need to say good-bye?

23 A. Before I come to that point, at about probably Friday at about

24 11.00 I ask friend of mine who worked in hospitals and was my flatmate at

25 the time, I ask her to go home and have few hours of sleep.

Page 1440

1 Q. 11.00 p.m. or a.m.?

2 A. A.m. -- p.m., sorry.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And so we had some discussion, and perhaps I stayed about couple

5 or three hours more in the hospital trying to get her to come with me to

6 have few hours of sleep, and when I walk back to the house I could not

7 find any one of the people who live there, and I can't remember who

8 exactly came over and said that all of them were in bomb shelter of ECMM

9 building, which was only probably 200 metres away. So I went over to see

10 them, and they and all of them were actually packed ready to leave the

11 area. So I did say good-bye to them. They asked me to go, to leave the

12 area with them, but I told them that I was obliged to go back to

13 hospital.

14 Q. What time of day was -- was your visit to the ECMM headquarters?

15 A. I -- I have no idea. It's hard to tell. All night was going

16 chaotic, and I just know that I came back to hospital at about 5.00 in

17 the morning. The visit to ECMM could be probably 2.00 in the morning or

18 something like that.

19 Q. And then you went home?

20 A. I went home. I had probably one hour, couple of hours sleep at

21 most and then went back to hospital.

22 Q. Okay. If we could take a look at the map that the Prosecution

23 used.

24 MR. MISETIC: P57 is it, Mr. Registrar? 58, P58.

25 Q. Now, Ms. Grubor, you've identified certain locations on this map

Page 1441

1 which you say you saw were shelled, and then in your testimony this

2 morning you said that most of these locations you saw from your vantage

3 point at the hospital; is that correct?

4 A. Yeah, that's correct.

5 Q. Can you identify for us which of these numbers you saw from a

6 vantage point other than the hospital?

7 A. Number 8 is -- you mean just to identify what is the location?

8 Q. No. I'm saying did -- is every location here what you saw from

9 your vantage point at the hospital?

10 A. I would say I could see -- for example, I did not circle the road

11 leaving out of the town, which was also bombed, which is known as Buljina

12 Strana.

13 Q. Maybe I'm not being clear enough. Is it fair to say that all of

14 the locations that you've circled here are things you saw from your

15 perspective at the hospital?

16 A. I can't say that I could see every single one well. However, it

17 is more in my view or recollection the places that were slightly rised

18 were hilly areas were more observed. I could see explosions in the town,

19 but because of town is low, I could not tell exact location of that,

20 while these elevated areas like number 10 or 8 or this road leaving the

21 town is much easier to see effect of explosions.

22 Q. Okay. Let me ask -- ask it this way: This morning you said you

23 saw a shoe store had been hit because you were driving by that shoe

24 store; correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 1442

1 Q. Are any of the locations on this map things that you saw as you

2 were standing next to or passing by that location?

3 A. You mean location. Is that the shoe store that I saw --

4 Q. No. Let's talk specifically. On the map, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.

5 A. Yeah, that's right.

6 Q. Are 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 all things that you saw from the

7 hospital?

8 A. I saw the explosions on these areas, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11.

9 Q. But you saw them from the hospital?

10 A. I could see most of them from the hospital.

11 Q. You say most of them. Are any of them things that you saw from a

12 location other than the hospital?

13 A. Just a moment. Number 6 is the location that I was driving by.

14 I did not see bomb fell onto that building, but I saw that building being

15 destroyed, which my common sense told me that it was due to a bomb

16 felling on that building.

17 Q. That is what you referred to as the shoe store this morning?

18 A. Yes. Or, for example, number 4, which is the police station. I

19 did not see. That was during the night-time. It was just direction

20 where it was coming from where I could see big fire, big blaze, but I did

21 not see exact building which was --

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. -- hit.

24 Q. I'm just -- for the purposes of these questions, number 6 was

25 what you saw as you were driving past it; correct?

Page 1443

1 A. Yeah, that's right.

2 Q. How about 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11?

3 A. Number 7 I could see that clearly from hospital. It was quite

4 close.

5 Number 8 -- just a moment. Number 8, I also had a good view of

6 this one because it is elevated just below castle.

7 Number 9 -- just a moment. Where is number 9? Yeah. Number 9

8 is just -- it is below hospital, quite close, and I could see explosions

9 there -- there frequently all day.

10 Number 10, it's the place that is slightly elevated, but I can --

11 I did not have clear view of this one. It was just the location that I

12 could see explosions. I can't tell that I saw actual houses, that I had

13 that clear view of that area.

14 Q. Well, you note on number 10 to the left you see what's to the let

15 of number 10?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it possible that what you saw was the Knin army barracks?

18 A. I saw that part -- that part being bombed. I saw explosions

19 within army barracks compounds, but also I did see a side of the -- of

20 that in number 10, explosions.

21 Q. Now. If we could show you another video.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is the number ready, Mr. ...

23 MR. MISETIC: We've had a discussion with Mr. Registrar. This

24 relates to some material that was raised for the first time in direct and

25 so there are no numbers yet, but we will deal with it as soon as we can.

Page 1444

1 It's something we've now come up during the break.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless I take it that we've already assigned a

3 number to material which is not yet uploaded.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This becomes Exhibit D71

5 marked for identification.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Ms. Grubor, if you could watch this clip closely and see if you

10 can see a building which you think may be the shoe store.

11 A. I believe it just passed that.

12 Q. Is that it?

13 A. I think this was the supermarket. I think --

14 Q. We'll go back, and tell us when to stop the tape.

15 [Videotape played]

16 A. That's the building, but I believe that just before this passage

17 on the left that there was a shoe store, in my recollection.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's the one on the left.


21 Q. The one with the pink orange paint or the one with the yellow?

22 A. I think that's the one with the pink orange, but I'm not 100 per

23 cent sure. I think that's the building.

24 Q. Okay. Let's look at this one and what I would suggest you --

25 play it, please.

Page 1445

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Is that the shoe store?

4 A. I can't be 100 per cent sure. I still believe it was the other

5 one, but could be this one as well. That's the building next to each

6 other.

7 Q. What about that one on the end? Could that also be the shoe

8 store?

9 A. I think this -- this corner building was the restaurant here.

10 Q. Okay. Let's play this clip back, and if you could now tell us

11 where you saw a building destroyed by shelling.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Because you yourself were travelling by car.

15 A. I was travelling by car, and here on the left in my recollection,

16 as far as I can remember, it was this orange building. I may be wrong,

17 but I do remember seeing on the left. I am pretty sure it was just above

18 the shoe store. But as I said, you know, there is very small chance that

19 I could miss the building one for another. But as I said again, pretty

20 sure that's the orange building.

21 Q. We will submit that this video was shot by reporters entering

22 Knin on the 7th of August. And so what I'm trying to ascertain is if you

23 say on this road you saw the shoe store had been damaged by artillery

24 fire.

25 A. Not shoe store damaged by artillery fire. I said when I look up

Page 1446

1 the window one of these upper floor windows, I could see the hole in the

2 ceiling. I don't know was it due to bomb felling or tank firing. I just

3 saw that --

4 Q. Okay. So you don't know --

5 A. -- damage.

6 Q. You saw a broken window?

7 A. And saw the ceiling, big hole in the ceiling. I could see the

8 sky from the window up through the building. I believe it was the result

9 of artillery fire.

10 Q. Okay. Now, also in your statement you were asked some questions

11 by the Presiding Judge about the fact that you weren't sure on the

12 morning of the 4th whether the artillery fire was Serbs firing onto

13 Croatian positions or Croatian positions firing into Knin; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Would it be fair then to say then that the shelling was not

17 anywhere near your apartment, at that point at least?

18 A. The loud noise, shelling, was the reason I woke up. It was 5.00

19 in the morning. And when I got up and looked through the window, I could

20 see explosions. As my window is towards east, I could see explosions I

21 would say probably 2, 300 metres away from the house, and then I realised

22 that Knin was under fire.

23 Q. Okay. While we still have the map up, if I could just ask you,

24 you said as you -- when you were going into the UN camp for the second

25 time in your statement it says you swam across two rivers?

Page 1447

1 A. Yeah, that's right.

2 Q. Can you explain why you didn't use that -- what appears to be a

3 railway track over that first river?

4 A. At the time I was scared all the time. I was running. I saw

5 about probably 20 tanks when I wanted to cross the road. I had to wait

6 for them to pass going into the city from Vrlika direction. I took this

7 road next to the railway station because that was -- no one was using

8 that. It was out of the way, out of the sight for safety reasons.

9 When I came to this bridge, which is long bridge down there, the

10 first river is a little one. It's easy to cross that river regardless

11 whether using a bridge or swimming across.

12 When I approach the bridge I could see people up there at the

13 castle of Knin. I was afraid that there maybe soldiers with snipers. I

14 did not want to be visible. I decided to take this, let's say shortcut

15 rather than going long way across the bridge.

16 Q. Okay. You discuss seeing a tractor -- you discuss the explosion

17 of a tractor near the UN compound in your statement.

18 A. Yeah. That's labelled on this map number 14.

19 Q. Right. Now, in your 2007 statement you said in paragraph 3 that

20 you did not actually see what happened there; correct?

21 A. It's -- if I bring myself back there, all of that was too

22 terrifying and horrifying. That was the moment when I did not believe it

23 is happening, and my mind refuse to take in any more. It was just so

24 much horror.

25 When we approach this convoy and bomb fell down, I immediately

Page 1448

1 told to Dr. Igor, "What do we do? Do we stop here and do we help these

2 people?" And his replay was, "We can't do anything." I had seen already

3 lots of blood. I was literally trying to shut my eyes and pass that

4 point.

5 Q. Okay.

6 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could go to 1D14-0194.

7 JUDGE ORIE: May I seek some clarification?

8 The question was put to you that you did not actually see what

9 happened there. You gave an answer which you described your state of

10 mind. Is that now to say that you saw the spot after what had happened

11 or that you did see it? It's not entirely clear to me.

12 THE WITNESS: I saw the actual bomb to fell onto the convoy. I

13 did see people felling off the tractor. However, as immediately that was

14 probably 50 metres away, or 100 metres at most. I discussed with doctor

15 whether we should stop and try to help the people, to which he said,

16 "There is no way we can do anything. We are now just to take care of the

17 people from hospital." So that's --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just stop you there. So I have understood

19 you well that you have corrected now your 2007 statement in which you say

20 that you did not actually see it.

21 THE WITNESS: Which paragraph is that?

22 MR. MISETIC: Paragraph 3.

23 JUDGE ORIE: "I didn't see the shell hit, but there were shells

24 falling all around."

25 THE WITNESS: That was -- this must be the one that was referring

Page 1449

1 outside the UN camp. This one shell, explosion, was just ahead of us as

2 we were facing that direction, driving along the road towards UN camp.

3 So that would be probably about 100 metres at most from UN camp.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now did you see the shell hit?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So to that extent you're correcting what you said.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, did see the shell.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to make clear what your position is.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.


11 Q. In terms of what you say you saw, you then say in your statement

12 you saw a huge explosion from one the trailers; correct?

13 A. Which part are you referring?

14 Q. Paragraph 3, the last sentence. This is of your supplemental --

15 A. Just a moment. Yeah. Not from -- sorry. I just did not read

16 this. I saw a huge explosion just outside the UN camp. I saw also bomb

17 felling on the convoy. There were two bombs, separate bombs, on -- just

18 down there. One was when one bomb fell onto the convoy of people were

19 there. The other one, huge explosion, was just outside of the UN gates,

20 which is just on the other side of the road, which was outside UN camp.

21 Q. And the people that were killed were in military uniform?

22 A. That's -- I wouldn't be able to answer that. In my opinion that

23 was convoy of civilians who were coming from direction of Drnis, from

24 those villages in my -- I presume who were waiting for the shelling to

25 stop and to pass the town to exit the other way.

Page 1450

1 MR. MISETIC: Okay. Could we go to page 2, Mr. Registrar.

2 Q. Is this the perspective from the camp to that crossroads where

3 this incident took place?

4 A. This is still this road, and at the end of this road there is

5 main road which is coming from the left down towards the town. So this

6 is side road which we are looking at.

7 Q. Correct. But you would have been on this road looking in that

8 direction from this perspective?

9 A. That events that I am talking about, I was on my way to here. I

10 would be looking this direction towards us.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. MISETIC: And if we could go to page 1 now, Mr. Registrar.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, could you -- yes. Could you also --

14 you're showing photographs and you're asking the witness all kinds of

15 things about it but the Chamber of course there's also some objective

16 information in that photograph, that is which direction it was taken, of

17 course the Chamber in order to follow the testimony -- oh, that comes

18 now.

19 MR. MISETIC: That's what I'm showing you now, Your Honour.



22 Q. You see the UNCRO barracks is marked on the screen. The picture

23 was taken from the red dot there, and the incident took place in the area

24 that's circled number 14?

25 A. It was farther down. It was before this crossing. It was

Page 1451

1 towards the city. It was coming from the opposite direction from the

2 town, so --

3 Q. Sorry, let me clarify something. When you say farther down do

4 you mean on the roads towards the red dot in this picture?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness to use the cursor so that

6 we -- what is further down that we know.

7 THE WITNESS: I would say it was towards down here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I see.

9 THE WITNESS: This -- somewhere down here. So it was about 100

10 metres from the UN camp, which is the very crossing here.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first ask how you approached the UN camp,

12 or what was -- how were you moving, from where to where?

13 THE WITNESS: I was coming from hospital through the town towards

14 UN camp.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And then on this photograph where -- by which road

16 did you enter the area.

17 THE WITNESS: This road. This area here I was travelling towards

18 UN camp.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And could you then please move the cursor in the

20 direction which you are -- that was --

21 THE WITNESS: That was the way that I was going that morning.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for the record the witness with the

23 cursor shows that she moved on a small road starting at the top left-hand

24 corner going in -- in 4.00 direction down towards. Yes, that's clear.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

Page 1452

1 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 3, Mr. Registrar.

2 Q. Do you recognise these pictures as the individuals who were

3 killed in this incident?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Were you able to see the individuals?

6 A. I was, but I did not look.

7 MR. MISETIC: I believe there's one more page, Mr. Registrar.

8 Q. Now, in this picture it looks -- the person on the bottom picture

9 looks to be wearing some sort a camouflage uniform?

10 A. During the wartime all males from -- they're required to be in

11 military service so I am not surprised at all. And plus --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Grubor, you're more or less now explaining. The

13 question was simply whether that was usual thing to where is another

14 matter which the Chamber might have to consider, but as a witness of fact

15 you're now invited to answer this question whether what you see is --

16 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- someone wearing a camouflage uniform.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's the uniform that RSK soldiers were

19 wearing.


21 Q. Do you recall on that date when you saw these individuals were

22 they wearing camouflage uniforms?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Now, if you saw this incident, did the big explosion that you

25 referred to in your statement, were there weapons on the trailer that --

Page 1453

1 that exploded, to your knowledge?

2 A. That's too much to ask. I have of no idea.

3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I could ask for a number for this

4 exhibit and tender it into evidence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to have the series of photographs.


7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course the Chamber is interested to know

8 where this material comes, what it depicts, taken by whom, when, et

9 cetera.

10 MR. MISETIC: These are pictures produced to us by the

11 Prosecution and taken by Mr. Alun Roberts.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- and when or --

13 MR. MISETIC: He had labels on them. We took the labels off but

14 he labelled them as incident close to the UN compound on the 5th of

15 August.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not necessarily the one the witness described

17 or --

18 MR. MISETIC: As far as I know, Your Honour, there's only one

19 incident, so ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I thought I heard you say incidents, but

21 looking at the transcript I see them as incident, an incident.

22 MR. MISETIC: Yes, just one.


24 MR. HEDARALY: To the extent it is marked, Your Honour, that's

25 fine but if we are going to discuss the admissibility of it the

Page 1454

1 Prosecution would have some objections to this document. The first one

2 is on the first page where it says area where I witnessed a shell killed.

3 I mean if that's Mr. Roberts, I think it may be -- would be better to be

4 shown to Mr. Roberts. These pictures were shown to Ms. Grubor. She

5 talks about an incident, pictures were shown to her, she says she's not

6 sure those are the same pictures; so for that reason I think maybe we can

7 mark it for identification but maybe to tender it is perhaps to wait when

8 we confirm --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I -- as a matter of fact, I invited the registrar to

10 arrange for a meeting together with legal officer to see how to deal with

11 marked for identification, because this witness -- some of the

12 photographs are certainly relevant if only because the witness says how

13 she travelled at that time, whereas others might be of that incident,

14 might not be of that incident. At least the witness could not confirm

15 that.

16 This series then for the time being remain marked for

17 identification pending further decisions on the matter. Yes,

18 Mr. Misetic.

19 MR. MISETIC: One clarification, Your Honour, that language that

20 we put in there we took straight out of the Prosecution's map which

21 they've used as P58 and that's the location at least that we thought is

22 marked as 14 and in her words placed where I saw a shell killed several

23 civilians 5 August 1995. So we just put it on a Google map.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go back to that -- to that first one with

25 the text on it? Mr. Registrar, is there anyway to -- yes. It says area.

Page 1455

1 That is fully congruent with what the witness said, isn't it. So

2 therefore will that objection stand or ...

3 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour. I may just clarify with the

4 witness that this is exactly the same location as on P58 that she's

5 mentioned.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact she testified how she

7 arrived there, so therefore it should not be too much doubt about that.

8 Matters remain marked for identification and we'll see what to do with

9 it.

10 Then, Mr. Misetic, you said that this picture would answer my

11 question as to from where the photograph was taken. Of course it only

12 says where the photo was taken, not in what direction, but I take it then

13 it's on the picture it's to the left.

14 MR. MISETIC: Yes, correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D72 marked for

17 identification.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and keeps that status for the time being.

19 Please proceed.


21 Q. I'd like to finish by the second break time going to try to move

22 quickly through this.

23 If I could show you --

24 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, a video this is 1D14-0181.

25 Q. And you in your statement discuss the behaviour of Croatian

Page 1456

1 troops as they arrived in -- in the hospital on the 5th, and I'd like to

2 show you two videos of Dr. Torbica. One is on the 5th of August as he's

3 met which Croatian forces, and the second is a statement he made

4 concerning the same events one month later in the -- while he was being

5 filmed by the UN in the UN compound so let's see --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, are the two footages one exhibit

7 number?

8 MR. MISETIC: No they're separate exhibits.

9 JUDGE ORIE: First one then Mr. Registrar would be.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D73 marked for identification, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


14 Q. If I could first ask you Ms. Grubor is that, in fact,

15 Dr. Torbica?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Okay.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] We have no information. Is there

20 anyone left at the hospital? We don't know, there's no one left here at

21 the hospital. There is no one at the hospital we're looking for them but

22 we don't know where they are. Doctor, tell us about the condition of

23 your patients. At this moment we don't know anything about the situation

24 but as far as the wounded persons are concerned the Croatian army's

25 behaviour's truly correct, and we hope that it will remain that way.

Page 1457

1 They act properly I would like to commend these boys from Varazdin they

2 behaved very correctly."

3 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. We are considerably behind with

4 the French translation. Therefore, I think the last portion that was

5 translated was whether that in fact that was Dr. Torbica where the

6 witness confirmed that it was.

7 Have you provided the text of this video, the transcript to the

8 booth? Then I'd like to have it in its entirety replayed and then wait

9 until the end until the French translation has caught up.

10 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover]

13 Dr. Torbica: I'm the only one who stayed. Fuck it, everyone

14 else escaped. I stayed here with the wounded with these poor people

15 here.

16 Dr. Zdilar: Are you a surgeon?

17 Dr. Torbica: Yes, I am.

18 Dr. Zdilar: You have a degree?

19 Dr. Torbica: Sure I do. What happened to Josko?

20 We have no information about their whereabouts.

21 Dr. Zdilar: Is there any one left at the hospital?

22 Dr. Torbica: We do don't know. There's no one left at the

23 hospital.

24 Dr. Zdilar: There's no one at the hospital?

25 Dr. Torbica: No we are looking for them, but we don't know where

Page 1458

1 they are.

2 Mr. Martinovic: Doctor, tell us about condition of your

3 patients?

4 Dr. Torbica: At this moment we don't know anything about the

5 situation but as far as the wounded persons are concerned, the Croatian

6 army's behaviour is truly correct, and we hope that it will remain that

7 way. They act properly. I would like to commend these boys from

8 Varazdin. They behaved very correctly.

9 Dr. Zdilar: You want a smoke?

10 Dr. Torbica: But I did not remember their names. I'm sorry I

11 didn't remember their names so I could ... their really nice guys.

12 Mr. Martinovic: You're a surgeon?

13 Dr. Torbica: Yes, I am.

14 Mr. Martinovic: Do you only have surgical patients or other

15 patients as well?

16 Dr. Torbica: Only surgical ones. I'm a surgeon.

17 Mr. Martinovic: You're the only member of the hospital staff who

18 stayed with the patients?

19 Dr. Torbica: You should turn to this side. Listen ...

20 Dr. Zdilar (to the cameraman): As a doctor only speak for myself

21 I do my job on my own behalf.

22 Mr. Martinovic: Thank you very much.

23 Dr. Torbica: Thank you."


25 Q. That was Dr. Torbica in front of the UN compound; is that

Page 1459

1 correct?

2 A. Yeah, that's correct.

3 Q. Now, I'd also like to show you a video of Dr. Torbica

4 approximately one month later being interviewed by the United Nations in

5 the UN camp, again talking about the treatment by the Croatian forces

6 upon entry into the hospital.

7 Again, Your Honour, I need -- sorry, let me call it up. It is

8 1D14-0180. If we could get a number?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar that would be.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit D74 marked for identification,

11 Your Honours.

12 [Videotape played]

13 "Dr. Torbica: Heavy shelling UN performed two evacuations. We

14 were waiting for the third evacuation APC -- APC convoy to start, but at

15 that point Croats had already penetrated the town. We were

16 understandably very afraid at that point but first group of Croatian

17 soldiers who entered the hospital were very polite. I awaited them and

18 told them to sit down. We had no problems with them. I want to

19 reiterate that they were behaving in quite an orderly way. And the --

20 and the soldiers made it possible for me to enter the UN camp with all --

21 and join the patients which were evacuated earlier."


23 Q. Ms. Grubor, did the Croatian forces behave correctly when they

24 entered the hospital?

25 A. I did not meet them then. They entered the hospital, I hear the

Page 1460

1 shooting upstairs, and I hear explosion which I presumed was a bomb, but

2 that's all I know. I left before they came downstairs to the bomb

3 shelter.

4 Q. You're just then recounting simply what you heard, but you didn't

5 actually see any Croatian soldiers mistreating anyone in the hospital; is

6 that correct?

7 A. No, I didn't see. And I have to admit later from -- I heard from

8 Dr. Torbica that no one was killed in that accident -- in that incident

9 when they entered the hospital, but however I did hear shooting, and I

10 did hear explosion from just upstairs basement.

11 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I could ask to have the video

12 exhibits admitted, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection to 73 and 74?

14 MR. HEDARALY: There are no objection, Your Honour. I would just

15 like to note that is date superimposed on D73, and there's just -- the

16 video itself doesn't refer to that date but subject to that clarification

17 we have no objection on D73 and D74.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And D73 and D74 are admitted into evidence.


20 Q. Ms. Grubor did you file an incident report with anyone in the UN

21 compound that Croatian forces were shooting at people in the hospital?

22 A. As soon as I arrived to the UN camp, I did tell what happened. I

23 can't tell that I was in a very good state. However, I asked them to

24 about and to protect people in hospital. I told them that Croatian

25 soldiers entered the hospital, and I urged them to go and send someone to

Page 1461

1 protect people who were left there.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, this might be -- in light of one

4 answer she has given, I have maybe one document that I'd like to retrieve

5 during the break and ask for a question about that one document and then

6 I will be finished.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break then, but could I also get some

8 information from the Cermak and Markac Defence on how much time they

9 would need tore cross-examination?

10 Mr. Kay for Mr. Cermak or Mr. Cayley.

11 MR. KAY: Nothing arises at the moment that requires further

12 questioning.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic.

14 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, General Markac's

15 Defence will need one hour at the most.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will have a break and we'll resume at

17 10 minutes to 1.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

21 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 65 ter 0121.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D75 marked for

24 identification.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

Page 1462

1 MR. MISETIC: You can see from the cover page this is an UNCIVPOL

2 report. I'm afraid the date is not clear on the cover page, Your Honour.

3 There's a faxed line on the bottom of that page that says it was

4 faxed at 8/8, but I'm sure of the date of the actual drafting.

5 MR. HEDARALY: The B/C/S version does have a date at the top

6 which on English version we can't read properly. It says 8th of August.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Then the question is on what that

8 is based, but let's -- let's -- I see that at least the document appears

9 to have been faxed already on the 8th of August. Please proceed.

10 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 If we could turn to the next page, please. Beginning at point 1.

12 Q. If you could read that, Ms. Grubor, until the portion that is

13 blacked out, and let me know when you've finished reading.

14 Have you finished reading?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You'll note at the third paragraph it says: "As the soldiers

17 stormed into the said ward, one of the nurses escaped through the exit

18 door leaving the rest side ..."

19 Do you know if that refers to you?

20 A. I suppose so.

21 Q. " ... and on seeing the soldiers, they started screaming and

22 asking for drinking water. The soldiers ordered one the persons to give

23 them water and was overheard saying that that was the last drip of water

24 for them and further that the soldiers were to administer the last

25 injection (meaning massacre)."

Page 1463

1 Now, before the break you said you spoke to people in the UN

2 camp. Do you know if you were the source of that information in this

3 UNCIVPOL report?

4 A. No, I could not. I left before Croatian soldiers entered, came

5 into the shelter, so definitely not me.

6 Q. Okay.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would ask that it be

8 tendered as an exhibit.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objection?

10 MR. HEDARALY: No objections, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then --

12 MR. MISETIC: [Microphone not activated]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This was marked for

14 identification as D75.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and D75 is admitted under evidence in the

16 absence of any objections.

17 MR. MISETIC: I have nothing further.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

19 Mr. Kay, your position remains as it was before.

20 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No questions. Okay, Mr. Mikulicic. You will be

22 questioned by Mr. Mikulicic who is Defence for Mr. Markac. Please begin,

23 Mr. Mikulicic.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Grubor.

Page 1464

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. I would ask you a few questions and I would appreciate if you

3 would answer to the best of your recollection.

4 Your first statement was given on the 3rd of April, 1998 in the

5 liaison office of the United Nations in Belgrade; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you were getting in contact with the UN office and giving

8 your statement, were you assisted in any way by the Veritas office in

9 Belgrade?

10 A. No, I wasn't. They -- in fact, they were not aware that I was

11 giving a statement.

12 Q. Thank you very much for that answer. In your statement you said

13 you had been employed with the Knin hospital as a laboratory assistant.

14 Can you tell us precisely what kind of duties did you have?

15 A. I was working in microbiology laboratory for the period of last

16 ten years prior to the event on 4th of August.

17 Q. Tell us, please, what kind of training did you have for that

18 position?

19 A. All of us are familiar with the system, schooling system, in

20 former Yugoslavia. I got my degree in -- for laboratory assistant in

21 microbiology in medical school in Belgrade.

22 Q. In addition to that training did you have any additional skills,

23 some other schooling you had completed?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Grubor, there has been discussion about this,

Page 1465

1 but I want to ask you a direct question. Do you know that the Supreme

2 Defence Council and Milan Martic in the republics of Krajina proclaimed a

3 state of war in the month of July 1995?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, this has been asked to the witness.

5 The within has answered it. If -- unless there's any specific reason why

6 you would like to go over that same ground again please do so if there is

7 any specific reason. If there's not, however, there's no reason to deal

8 with the matter again. Similar observation in relation to the education

9 of a laboratory assistant. If there's a good reason to expect that this

10 laboratory assistant would not have proper training, then of course you

11 can ask about her -- ask about it. If, however, this is a laboratory

12 assistant which received the usual training for a laboratory assistant,

13 then of course there's no need to go over that unless again if there's

14 any specific reason which might raise our eyebrows, then you certainly

15 should do it. But if it's just to seek verification that this woman was

16 trained -- this witness was trained for the job she did, then of course

17 there's no need to ask that.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. To

20 continue my examination, I will explain why I have asked these questions.

21 Q. Mrs. Grubor, you mentioned in your statement that the attack in

22 the morning of the 4th was sudden and unexpected, because if it had been

23 expected you at the hospital would have proceeded to implement an

24 existing plan. Can you tell us exactly what kind of plan existed at the

25 hospital for such contingencies?

Page 1466

1 A. In my recollection, at the beginning of civil war in former

2 Yugoslavia, so that would be in 1990, all of us had a meeting, let's say,

3 and were tasked to take a part in case of unexpected, meaning that

4 some -- that emergency -- in case of emergency the hospital would be ran

5 downstairs in the bomb shelter. So I would say that some of us were

6 supposed to take some medications or some necessary equipment down in

7 order to be able to work.

8 Q. Thank you. Let me go back to your statement from 1998 in which

9 you stated that some of the employees of the hospital remained - that's

10 page 2, last paragraph - remained to work at the hospital while others

11 left. Do you know how it came about that some of the medical personnel

12 stayed with the patients while others left? What were the reasons? Can

13 you explain?

14 A. I don't understand which medical personnel you referred to, who

15 stayed with the wounded and who were the ones who left.

16 Q. Let me point out page 2 of your statement, the paragraph before

17 last which contains a list of staff members who were in hospital on

18 Friday and who remained to work there after the offensive. Can you

19 confirm that these were the people who stayed at the hospital?

20 A. Yeah, those are the people. If you are referring to the others

21 who left the hospital during the night, I'm -- on Friday to Saturday,

22 they left with the wounded who were evacuated from hospital during the

23 night.

24 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Grubor, I would now like you to watch a video

25 clip dated 6 August, the day when the hospital was handed over. 000180.

Page 1467

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The hand-over.

3 "Dr. Zdilak: Today at 12.30, the Croatian army is handing over

4 the general hospital in Knin to the civilian health care authorities.

5 Twenty health care workers have been sent from Zadar, and they are going

6 to start working now.

7 "Dr. Viskovic: We found here some seven to eight health care

8 workers of Serb ethnicity who stayed with the patients at their own free

9 will and they joined our team. They will be working together with us.

10 They will fare exactly as we do. We are all professionals. We are blind

11 to differences in ethnicity or religion. All patients are equal in our

12 eyes, and we must treat them all as professionals."

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mrs. Grubor -- could we get a number from the registry first?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour this becomes Exhibit D76 marked

16 for identification.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against D76? No objection. D76 is

18 admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. On this recording we saw the newly appointed administrator of the

21 hospital, Dr. Ante Viskovic. Did you know that man from before?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Is it the case that the administrator of the Knin hospital before

24 Dr. Viskovic was Dr. Igor Torbica?

25 A. No. As far as I know, he wasn't.

Page 1468

1 Q. Do you know who was?

2 A. I am just trying to remember. It has been 13 years since then,

3 but at the time it was another surgeon. His name was Dusan -- I can't

4 remember last name. I may remember later on, but can't -- can't think.

5 Q. Never mind. Thank you, Mrs. Grubor. If you don't remember, we

6 will not insist on that.

7 Could we now play another video clip, 3D0002120, recorded on the

8 next day, on the 7th of August.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Life and work have started to

11 normalise at the Knin hospital today. Health care minister of Republic

12 of Croatia, Andrija Hebrang visited the hospital grounds as they are

13 being cleaned up.

14 "Dr. Hebrang: Well, the civilian authorities have entered this

15 health care facilities as you can see and found the same problems we see

16 everywhere in newly liberated areas, a mess, a mess, and more mess. The

17 first thing they did when they came was to make Serb patients comfortable

18 provide them with adequate care and thus demonstrated the civilized ways

19 of the Croatian state when it comes into its own territory.

20 "Reporter: At the hospital, we also found nine health care

21 workers of Serb ethnicity who had chosen to stay here of their own free

22 will to care for the 22 Serb patients. 40 patients had been taken away

23 by the UNPROFOR and they are unaware of their current status."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1469

1 Q. Mrs. Grubor -- I'm sorry, Your Honours. I have to pay more

2 attention to interpretation.

3 Mrs. Grubor, we have seen this person before, earlier today. Do

4 you recognise him in this freeze?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Can you tell it us for the record who it is?

7 A. Goran Jejina.

8 Q. Thank you. We can continue.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Many are in a difficult condition

11 because surgery could not be performed on time due to objective reasons.

12 So we hope that in the future, in the near future, this will be resolved

13 and the patients will receive the best possible care.

14 "Reporter: Although order is being restored at the hospital

15 extremely rapidly so that seriously-ill Serb patients have already been

16 transferred from the inhumane conditions in the basement and towards

17 upstairs, the offices of Serb doctors who had fled had not yet been

18 entered into. It is said that sappers will be called in for that job."

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mrs. Grubor, after these events at the UN camp where you said you

21 took cover, did you have occasion to speak to your colleagues who worked

22 at the hospital after it was taken over by Croatian civilian authorities?

23 A. A couple weeks after I spoke to Drazenka who came over to the UN

24 camp as well as a few others who decided to stay. I met them probably

25 six months to one year after in Belgrade.

Page 1470

1 Q. Did these people share with you any information that would

2 indicate that Croatian authorities were improper in their treatment of

3 Serb health care workers?

4 A. The only thing that I hear that was that one of wounded soldiers

5 died is he was too late to receive medical care, and I think that was

6 referring to this soldier named Grujic.

7 Q. I understand. Mrs. Grubor, you described for us today how

8 seriously wounded people were evacuated in UN vehicles in two trips from

9 the Knin hospital. I'm now referring to your statement from 2007, page

10 2, paragraph 4.

11 You said that UN vehicles followed your ambulance because they

12 feared they could be attacked by soldiers of the army of Serbian in

13 Krajina. Can you clarify this?

14 A. At the time of attack UN were -- sorry. The whole area was under

15 UN protection for the last two or three years. Therefore, the people

16 felt that UN failed them for such horrible things taking place under the

17 UN protection. And therefore, UN ask us to lead the way and to advise

18 any soldier that was left in that town, I mean RSK soldier, to let them

19 know that we are going to transport wounded from hospital.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarification. In this one line

21 where it reads: "The UN vehicles were following our ambulances because

22 they were worried about being shot," could you tell us who you refer to

23 by the word "they"? Was it people from the UN vehicles or from the

24 ambulances?

25 THE WITNESS: People from the UN vehicles were worry -- worrying

Page 1471

1 about being shot at the time. There was only us in ambulance vehicle, me

2 and doctor, and behind us there were three UN transporters who were

3 supposed to evacuate the wounded.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

5 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. At the beginning you described the training you had and your

7 duties at the hospital, and you said you had no other training. I will

8 now show you a passage from your statement of 1998, page 4, paragraph 1,

9 where you stated that in Knin there were no military positions of the

10 Republic of Serbian Krajina, and therefore you thought that the shelling

11 of the town was absolutely illegitimate, without any legal justification.

12 Mrs. Grubor, may we conclude that you were not qualified,

13 actually, to give such an assessment, such an evaluation of the shelling

14 of the town in view of your position and your occupation?

15 A. I did not come here as an expert in any field, including my own

16 field. My statement was based on all events that took place, on

17 information that was exchange in between us, and what I saw within few

18 days prior to this event. So that was my conclusion, or let's say common

19 sense out of all of this, but I am not qualified to say that I am an

20 expert to give expert opinion about any military moments.

21 Q. I asked this because I thought you may have heard someone else

22 make this qualification, so let me ask you directly. Was there anyone

23 around you with whom you were in contact who had shared with you this

24 conclusion that you refer to in your statement?

25 A. Within few days prior to this event I had a number of my male

Page 1472

1 friends, people who told me that they were to be taken to Bosnia, and

2 therefore I got an opinion that as I couldn't see any serious number of

3 soldiers in the very town, that all of them were taken over to Bosnia.

4 Q. Thank you. We will move on from this subject.

5 Now, Mrs. Grubor, I want to show you the last video clip filmed

6 on the 8th of August. It's 3D000201.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but perhaps we should first assign a number to

8 the previous one, Mr. Mikulicic.

9 Mr. Registrar, the previous one would be?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that becomes Exhibit D77 marked for

11 identification.

12 JUDGE ORIE: D77. Any objection?

13 MR. HEDARALY: None. Just for the record I like to note that is

14 date superimposed and the video itself does not provide any date on when

15 it was filmed but subject to that there are no objections.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- then D77 is admitted into evidence.

17 This new one, Mr. Registrar, would be number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit D78 marked for

19 identification.


21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let us look at the

22 clip.

23 [Videotape played]


25 "[Voiceover] Mr. Roncevic: The birth of a first baby born in

Page 1473

1 liberated Knin which is not only symbolic, it has a special weight and

2 importance. Here is a story of this hospital from Josko Martinovic.

3 "Mr. Martinovic: It is born. It is 51 centimetres long and has

4 no name as yet but our technicians nicknamed her Mirna from Knin. Her

5 mother, 25-year old Mirjana Vujko had been too afraid to leave the UNCRO

6 barracks therefore Croatian obstetrician, Dr. Lozo, had come to perform

7 the delivery afterwards however the new mother changed her mind and the

8 Knin hospital admitted its youngest patient.

9 "Journalist: Was everything all right with you?

10 "Mother: Yes.

11 "Journalist: Here is the little baby, a girl.

12 "Journalist: The beginning of her life coincided with the

13 activation of Knin's general hospital. This hospital now has a one-to

14 one ratio of medical personnel and patients, 30 of each, but numbers are

15 growing by the hour.

16 "Dr. Viskovic: At the moment the surgical service, the

17 internist service, and general practice are in operation. As we go along

18 other specialist services will be developed.

19 "Journalist: Part of the personnel is the well-oiled team of

20 the wartime hospital in Siska, which assisted in delivering the first

21 baby girl born in Knin. These doctors have had a lot of experience in

22 wartime work since 1991 and they say Knin is not their last stop.

23 "Dr. Lozo: Our wartime career started in 1991 on the aisle of

24 Pag then we worked at Velebit and continued to work there until now when

25 we came to put into operation this beautiful facility. All of us had

Page 1474

1 sworn an oath back in 1991 that we will end our war work in Vukovar.

2 "Journalist: The nurse in this team is Danica Soric a native of

3 Vukovar, who remembers the abuse suffered at the hands of Serbs after the

4 town was occupied.

5 "Ms. Soric: I was just telling my colleagues who were in Knin

6 when we arrived. They were terrified. They must have been any of

7 misinformed. I told them then how we felt and how we were treated when

8 Vukovar was they said liberate, we'd call it captured and that's the way

9 they treated us from start as prisoners, not as health care workers. It

10 doesn't stand comparison.

11 "Journalist: Around half of all medics and paramedics of Serbs

12 who have worked here since before the operation. We have a good

13 cooperation with our colleagues says Dr. Dobric."

14 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mrs. Grubor, do you recognise this person in the freeze?

16 A. No, actually, I don't. He -- if he was at the time in hospital,

17 he must be shorter period of time in hospital if I don't -- if I can't

18 remember his face.

19 Q. Thank you. We can carry on.

20 [Videotape played]


22 "[Voiceover] Dr. Dobric: For the most part this is gratifying

23 work. It's work I hope I have performed well and I hope that I will

24 continue.

25 "Journalist: We are touring the hospital wards during lunchtime,

Page 1475

1 the same food, pasta with beans, for Croatian soldiers and Serb civilians

2 alike. Dr. Klaric is showing to us the modern medical equipment that is

3 available in just one other hospital in Croatia. The new hospital in

4 Zagreb. In the well-appointed intensive care unit no one pays any heed

5 to the patients ethnicity. The treatment is excellent. I have no

6 complaints.

7 "Journalist: Any fears, misgivings?

8 "Mr. Zubic: No, none.

9 "Journalist: One baby was born. There is another expectant

10 mother at the UNCRO barracks. Maybe she will follow in Mirjana's

11 footsteps and the hospital will get a fourth born, gynecology. At any

12 rate people will be needing treatment for a long time to come not only

13 from wounds and diseases but also mistrust and prejudice the first step

14 has been taken."

15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And I have two other questions, or, rather, subjects that I would

17 like to discuss but Mrs. Grubor. You said that after a certain period of

18 time you returned to your flat. You saw that the flat had been broken

19 into and that certain items taken, rather, stolen from your flat. Do you

20 remember that?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Did you file a report with the police station in Knin with regard

23 to this burglary?

24 A. Well, at the time I took all my strength and courage to get out

25 for about half an hour of the UN camp. I was scared to death to come out

Page 1476

1 of the UN camp, and definitely not. I did not fail report to the local

2 police station.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mikulicic, we have now heard that the baby

4 was 52 centimetres and it seemed in very good shape. Any question about

5 the video you just played? Is there any issue between the parties as to

6 the quality of the medical care before and after these events, because

7 that's what it's all about, isn't it? I mean, if you play such a video,

8 I take it that it is in order to put some questions to the witness in

9 relation to that and not to tell the Court that apart from this first

10 baby there was another one expected to be born, which of course is an

11 enjoyable thing, but I'm asking what we're doing.

12 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my intention was to

13 have the witness identify Dr. Dobric, who is one of the Serbian doctors

14 who stayed on to work in the hospital. And on the other hand, I wanted

15 to demonstrate that the hospital had established a regular manner of

16 operation, and as a result it was not necessary for the doctors employed

17 in the hospital not to return to the hospital because they were afraid.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is that an issue in this case? May I ask the

19 Prosecution whether there's -- is the position of the Prosecution that

20 there was any problem in providing medical care, perhaps in return of --

21 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour. I don't believe that that's one

22 of the issues in this case.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Mikulicic, let's try to focus on

24 what are the real issues. Apart from -- I think the witness did not

25 testify this doctor, did she? She did not recognise him, if I followed

Page 1477

1 her testimony well. Shall we -- we could have stopped there instead of

2 going on with the second baby.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. In your statement, Ms. Grubor, that you gave in 1998, I'm

6 referring to page 5, the penultimate paragraph on that page, in that

7 paragraph you mentioned an incident that occurred to Mr. Drpa Dusan. Do

8 you remember that?

9 A. Yes, I do remember that.

10 Q. You said that Mr. Drpa went to town to get a certificate of

11 citizenship, a so-called domovnica; is that correct?

12 A. Yeah, that's right.

13 Q. And after that he returned and said that he had been to his house

14 and that he had been beaten up by Croatian soldiers.

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Did he perhaps tell you how this incident during which he was

17 beaten up occurred?

18 A. No, he did not. However, I know he told me that his intention

19 was to get certificate of citizenship and stay to live in Knin.

20 Q. Ms. Grubor, let me try to refresh your memory to the extent that

21 it is possible now given all the time that has elapsed. Did Mr. Drpa say

22 anything about the fact that the Croatian soldiers found ammunition for a

23 rifle and a pistol, and they found dynamite that was hidden in a shed?

24 Did he say anything about that and about the fact that that's how he was

25 finally beaten up?

Page 1478

1 A. No, did he not say that. However, I have to say that during the

2 wartime I don't think there was any house without weapons in the town.

3 Q. Thank you for that answer, Ms. Grubor. I have no further

4 questions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

6 Mr. Hedaraly, let me first check.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, is there any need to re-examine the

9 witness?

10 MR. HEDARALY: Very briefly, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

12 MR. HEDARALY: Can I have D75 back up on the screen, please, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

15 Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

16 MR. HEDARALY: If we can did to the second page, please.

17 Q. Ms. Grubor, you were shown this document not too long ago, just

18 after the break, and I just wanted to clarify something, and correct me

19 if I'm wrong. My understanding of your testimony was that you left the

20 hospital before the Croatian soldiers entered the underground floor.

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. So when -- when in the third paragraph it says: "As the soldiers

23 stormed into the said ward, one of the nurses escaped through the exit

24 door leaving the rest inside," is that referring to you or could it be

25 someone else?

Page 1479

1 A. It could be mistaken for me, but I left before they came

2 downstairs to the shelter. I left as soon as I hear the explosion

3 upstairs. They had no chance to have sighting of me at the time.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, the only other thing that I have

6 is --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I have, however, a question in relation to this

8 document.


10 JUDGE ORIE: This appears to be a redacted document. Usually it

11 is explained to the Chamber why it is that the Chamber cannot see the

12 whole of the document. The party that tendered it or the party that

13 originally provided it is equally in a position to explain this to the

14 Chamber.

15 MR. MISETIC: I tendered it, Your Honour. Unfortunately, I have

16 to say that I just used what I received from the Prosecution, so I don't

17 know why.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you want to know why.

19 MR. MISETIC: I want to know everything.

20 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour at this moment I can't answer your

21 question but we'll make sure to see if there is an unredacted version and

22 send to the Defence and perhaps switch the exhibit if necessary as well.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. This is such an obvious question, of

24 course, that the Chamber would have appreciated the parties would have

25 considered it before the Chamber asked for it.

Page 1480

1 MR. HEDARALY: I understand, Your Honour. We were not planning

2 on tendering it so I understand your concern.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood. Then please proceed.

4 MR. HEDARALY: I just have one last issue and it's with respect

5 to the video that was played, that was D68 where we saw Mr. Jejina, I

6 believe, talking without the sound, and the Defence has provided us what

7 they say was spoken, and I would like to read that into the record while

8 waiting that the Defence will get us the actual video and we will

9 double-check so that we can have the whole exhibit on the record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

11 MR. MISETIC: I guess I need a foundation for why the audio is

12 relevant. I mean, I guess --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will have to decide on the

14 relevance of the audio, then of course the Chamber would first have to

15 know what the audio is. Otherwise we could not even decide upon the

16 matter.

17 MR. MISETIC: That's fine. The reason -- as I said before, Your

18 Honours, we tendered it just to show what the basement looked like not

19 for the content of what was being said in order to avoid having to ask

20 more questions and examination about the substance of the content.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was perfectly clear, and I then said if

22 the Prosecution would find something interest in the audio that they will

23 certainly come back to that and that's what they are doing now.

24 MR. MISETIC: That's fine, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 1481

1 MR. HEDARALY: And I think it is going to answer the Chamber's

2 question about the relative timing when the video taken. I think it will

3 be some assistance with that. If I may just read:

4 "Operating theatre must be put in the cellar because it's very

5 dangerous to work upstairs because of great bombing of city of Knin and

6 near area. More than three hours Knin is shelled and a lot of wounded,

7 especially civilian, is in the city."

8 That concludes what we have received from the Defence, and they

9 have said they were going to give us the original audio, and we'll be

10 able to check that. That's all I have, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I take it that -- yes. You would like to

12 have this on the record, and I take it that's a bit of a problem, of

13 course. Are you now providing the evidence? I mean, we have now the

14 video without audio, so the audio is now added. I take it that you then,

15 one of these days, will come up with the transcript of a relevant

16 portion.

17 MR. HEDARALY: We have not been provided the video with the audio

18 which is a problem, Your Honours, so for now this is the best we can do

19 and as soon as we receive it from Mr. Misetic, we will introduce it in

20 the best possible manner so that the audio version is also in evidence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then of course what we should do is ask the

22 witness having heard those words spoken whether this is also your

23 understanding of why to some extent you've answered the question already,

24 why the surgical activity took place in the basement.

25 Thank you for that answer.

Page 1482

1 I have one more question for you if it was for the Prosecution,

2 Mr. Hedaraly. Could we have P58 on the screen again.

3 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I believe the answer the

4 witness was to your question was not recorded in the transcript.

5 JUDGE ORIE: She confirmed that.

6 MR. HEDARALY: And if there's one additional matter, I apologise,

7 Your Honour. P59 was marked but I believe we have not tendered it into

8 evidence and exhibit the short clips, if we would do that at this stage,

9 the second sentence with the road.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection to 59?

11 MR. MISETIC: No objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then P59 is admitted into evidence.

13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, as long as we're on D75 the

14 redacted document, part page 3 of that document is also redacted so --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that will all redactions are taken care of

16 and formally tendered.

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we move into the left upper corner. Yes,

19 that portion.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Grubor, you -- we read from this document which

22 was marked by you and of course this is now the new version, that 17

23 indicates the direction from which Knin was shelled from the direction of

24 Dinara. You also marked on this document where the main entrance to the

25 hospital was, that is with an arrow and a 15.

Page 1483

1 A. That's correct.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I earlier asked you whether the portions we had seen

3 from the outside of the building, whether these were portions that were

4 also portions that were exposed to fire. Now, comparing arrow 17 with

5 the entrance of the building, apparently being little bit -- a little

6 bit --

7 A. Exposed.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- to the north, I would from these arrows, I would

9 expect that the wall in which the main entrance is located would be

10 exposed at least to the shelling of -- from the direction of 17. I'm

11 just trying to understand your testimony in detail.

12 Is this understanding -- would you consider that there's -- it's

13 understandable?

14 A. That's -- this arrow here, as well as the other one that I drew

15 from the south direction is my presumption. I am not 100 per cent sure.

16 I mean, if we had probably aerial photo of the mountains around probably

17 I could give exact. However, I can't tell exactly what exact direction

18 was as mostly I would assume by sound, not --


20 A. -- by seeing bombs flying by some certain direction.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now Dinara appears to be a place which is

22 known what the location of that place is, or is it a wider area which

23 could explain why the arrow might be a bit different from what we see

24 here or would be a range rather than a single arrow?

25 A. Really, I would not know exactly what location was where the

Page 1484

1 bombings were coming from. However, I did hear the hissing noise coming

2 from that direction, but it's hard to be precise if someone ask me where

3 exactly. As I said previously, I'm not expert. I tried to give as much

4 as I can in my recollection, which is not 100 per cent accurate in terms

5 of bombs falling or --


7 A. -- some -- some -- something that I was not directly there

8 observing.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I fully understand that. But I just wanted to

10 tell you that I had some difficulties in reconciling your evidence that

11 the walls we've seen would not be the walls exposed to fire, whereas from

12 these arrows it appears that the entrance faces approximately north-east,

13 whereas the arrow from where this part of the fire came is east or

14 north-east which is rather similar.

15 A. I mean, regardless of that, I did see a few bombs exploding on

16 the hospital grounds on the north side. So I wouldn't be able to tell

17 where they were coming from.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you are aware on this map that north is to

19 the left and not as usual.

20 A. Yes. Yes, I am.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

22 I have in further questions. Any need for further questions

23 triggered by the questions of the Bench? If not, Ms. Grubor, I would

24 like to thank you for coming to The Hague. I often say to come a far

25 distance Hague, but I think in this case it was really very far.

Page 1485

1 THE WITNESS: It was.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Distance. Thank you very much for taking the effort

3 to come to The Hague and for answering the questions of both parties and

4 the bench, and I wish you although it may be a long trip but at least a

5 safe trip home again.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out

8 of the courtroom.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: There is no time left at this moment to further deal

11 with the MFIs which we started last Friday. I'm looking to the

12 Prosecution. Tomorrow's witness, no special problems?

13 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour. He is here and he is ready to

14 testify.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we will adjourn, and we will resume

16 tomorrow, the 15th of April, at 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom III.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day

19 of April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.