Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1730

1 Thursday, 17 April 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom. The

7 technical problems have been resolved. That does explain our late start.

8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to

10 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

11 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13 Mr. Dreyer, I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by

14 the solemn declaration that you gave yesterday when you started your

15 testimony.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.


18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, are you ready to continue your

19 examination in chief?

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 Examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dreyer.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Just for your information, I've spoken with Defence counsel so I

Page 1731

1 think we'll proceed as efficiently as possible today, I think we have a

2 reasonable chance of concluding today but certainly by tomorrow, I trust.

3 Yesterday, Mr. Dreyer, when we concluded or as we were concluding

4 the session, you had indicated the dots on P79, that's the aerial photo

5 that you marked in 1996 and had explained the significance of those dots.

6 I was concerned that might create some confusion as we can see on P79

7 there are areas, encircled areas that indicate areas of shelling, and

8 then there are the dots which you indicated were specific impact

9 locations both inside and outside those encircled areas. So I just

10 wanted to give you an opportunity to explain the -- any difference

11 between the encircled areas and the dots, whether that was a two-step

12 process, essentially how it was that some of the impact locations ended

13 up outside the encircled areas indicating areas of shelling.

14 A. I've looked at the map very carefully over the last many, many

15 years and looking at the dots, I mean the -- there was a time that I

16 couldn't really understand what the dots were indicating and then there

17 was areas where the circles were drawn as well. The dots, as far as I

18 can recall, was areas where I physically seen the impacts, physically

19 seen impacts happening as I was driving around and/or areas where I was

20 while I was busy evacuating staff members where I saw impacts landing.

21 Q. And the encircled areas are areas generally where you saw or

22 experienced the shelling but didn't recall specific impact locations?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. And just to be clear, do the dots represent every shell impact

25 that you saw or those that you recalled at the time you were creating the

Page 1732

1 P79 in 1996?

2 A. The dots do not recall every specific shell. The dots recall the

3 shells that I specifically remembered at the time.

4 Q. And similarly the encircled areas indicating the areas of

5 shelling indicate all of the areas of shelling that took place on August

6 4th, during your trips outside the compound or those that you recalled

7 when you were -- specifically recall, that is, when you were creating P79

8 in 1996?

9 A. The encircled areas as indicated on the map indicates the areas

10 where I saw smoke shelling or affected areas at the time.

11 Q. Finally I just wanted to make clear the relationship between the

12 annexes to your 2008 statement which reflected the routes of the trip you

13 took and the areas where you observed or experienced shelling and those

14 would be P73 through P78 and P79. So do those -- well, let me ask you

15 this: Was -- were these annexes reconstructions of the document that you

16 created in 1996?

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. Okay. And they depict the same routes and the same encircled

19 areas of shelling?

20 A. They do.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Dreyer, in paragraph 7 of your statement, you indicate

22 that the attack on the 4th was led by multiple rocket launchers and heavy

23 weapons in the form of 155-millimetre howitzer cannons. How did you

24 recognise or identify those systems?

25 A. Multiple rocket launcher has got a very specific sound to it as

Page 1733

1 they impact. 155-millimetre howitzer cannons, it could have been a

2 variation of various cannons. I believe that the 155-millimetre howitzer

3 cannons were either given to me by my own recollection or by speaking to

4 the military, but the multiple rocket launcher's got a very unique sound

5 to it as they come in, and it's unmistakable.

6 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Registrar, can we call up P79 once more.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Dreyer, I want to direct your attention to the encircled

8 area to the left of the marking B. If we could enlarge the circle in

9 the -- immediately to the left of B -- that's just below the -- yes,

10 that's right.

11 Mr. Dreyer, you can either look at it on screen or on the hard

12 copy in front of you. There are four letters there which appear to begin

13 with the letter M. Can you tell us what that says and what that's a

14 reference to?

15 A. I believe, looking at it very closely right now, I believe it's

16 MRL, which would represent multiple rocket launchers. But it's written

17 there twice. I can't really make it out.

18 Q. Okay. And can we enlarge it or -- if we can reduce the size

19 sometimes it's clearer with the reduced size.

20 You might want to look at it on the screen. I'm trying to find a

21 resolution that's the most easily read, Mr. Dreyer.

22 Sorry, I see you're looking at the hard copy. If you could

23 address your attention to the screen.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Because there may be one resolution that makes it easier to read.

Page 1734

1 Now, Mr. Dreyer, do you know whether or not -- that looks like a

2 fairly good resolution. Do you know whether or not that is a reference

3 to multiple rocket launcher systems rockets landing in that area, that

4 encircled area?

5 A. In that encircled area, yes, because at point G is where I was at

6 5.00 in the morning, excuse me, and the areas to our right and to our

7 left was impacts of multiple rocket launchers, so yes, certainly, was

8 there multiple rocket launcher in that area, to my recollection, yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. TIEGER: If I could also ask the registrar to enlarge the

11 following area and perhaps it's best if I describe how to get there. If

12 we could first direct the registrar's attention to where it says Knin at

13 the top of the page, then go to the oblong below to the left, sorry, to

14 the left there, and then to this first circle below that and then enlarge

15 the enlarge the area, sorry, and into the smaller circle next to that to

16 the left, and then if you could enlarge the area immediately to the left

17 of that circle.

18 That line running through the middle of the page, there are

19 letters below the circle -- right almost at the top of the page, if you

20 could slightly enlarge that. To the right. Yes, that's it. That may be

21 a little too large but ...

22 Q. Mr. Dreyer, can you see the letters to which I was trying to

23 direct the registrar's attention and can you read those letters for us,

24 please.

25 A. They seem to me right now by looking at them, it seems to read

Page 1735

1 MRL as well.

2 Q. Would that also be an area where you experienced or observed

3 multiple rocket launcher impact?

4 A. If I wrote it down there, that's what I experienced, yes.

5 MR. TIEGER: I see the Court looking so I want to ...

6 Q. Mr. Dreyer, just one small point of clarification. Yesterday you

7 indicated that after the shelling commenced it took you about 20 minutes

8 to get you back to the compound. I'm just wondering if you could give

9 the Court some idea of how long that trip took under normal conditions.

10 A. Under normal conditions, about two and a half minutes, two

11 minutes.

12 Q. In addition, Mr. Dreyer, you referred yesterday to a portion of

13 your statement which referred to persons killed at the corner of the UN

14 compound and to corrected fire directed toward those persons, that would

15 be paragraph 19 of your statement. First of all, can you tell us what

16 you meant by corrected fire?

17 A. I can. I'll try my best to explain what corrected fire is.

18 Specifically, with mortar rounds, corrected fire is where fire is

19 corrected by firing a single pipe or a single mortar round to direct it

20 as close as possible to the target they intend to strike.

21 I was standing inside the compound right next to I believe at the

22 time next to the General and next to the Chief of Staff and we had a

23 significant amount of civilian staff congregated outside on the corner of

24 the UN building.

25 We were I believe if I read my statement right, that was about

Page 1736

1 10.00 in the morning on the 5th. And what we saw was the first round of

2 a mortar shell impacting further down the valley. Not long after that,

3 there was a second shell that impacted closer towards us and closer

4 towards the civilians outside the gate.

5 If I recollect, there was a third round even closer and I

6 realised, well, myself and the General looked at each other and we said

7 they are busy correcting fire to hit the -- or to target the people

8 outside the camp. And then the final round fell smack bang in the middle

9 of the crowd outside the UN building, killing several of the people

10 outside the building in the street.

11 Q. Okay. And just by way of clarification, you said in your answer

12 there was a significant amount of civilian staff congregated outside the

13 corner of the UN building, was that civilian staff or civilians

14 generally?

15 A. When I say civilians, I mean they were dressed in civilian

16 clothing so yes that's what I was referring to.

17 Q. Okay. And do you know whether any of those who were killed on

18 that occasion were in military uniform rather than in civilian clothes?

19 A. To my knowledge, no.

20 Q. In your statement at paragraph 15 regarding your fourth trip, you

21 refer to a trip to Podkonje to try to rescue an UNMO team, that is UNMO

22 Team Podkonje, being held hostage by Serb soldiers. First of all, by way

23 of clarification, Podkonje is that area depicted in the aerial

24 photographs to the right of the photograph? You'll have to answer --

25 A. Excuse me, that's a yes. Yes.

Page 1737

1 Q. How many Serb soldiers were you talking about on that occasion,

2 how many Serb soldiers were involved in that?

3 A. None of them were dressed in military uniform. They were all

4 dressed in civilians and civilian attire. But they were heavily armed

5 and they were extremely threatening towards us. At one point we did

6 believe that we were going to be under small arms and -- well, under

7 attack from -- and that generally subsided after we struck a dialogue. I

8 would say the number you're referring to, I would say anywhere between 6

9 to 10 people.

10 Q. These are formal unit people from Podkonje, how did -- could you

11 tell what they were?

12 A. They looked to me -- at the time they looked to me like a small

13 neighbourhood watch, really.

14 Q. Also in your statement at paragraph 19, you mention that at about

15 5.25 on the morning of the 5th of August, the shelling recommenced with

16 the same intensity as the previous day. When you refer to the same

17 intensity, is that the same intensity as the shelling in the early

18 morning hours of the previous day?

19 A. The early hours of the previous day, I was in the middle of the

20 shelling, so for me, the intensity was heavy. The following day I was

21 observing the shelling and from a distance, I would say that the shelling

22 was what I perceived or what I could see over Knin was of the same

23 intensity, yes.

24 Q. And were you able to observe what parts of the city the shelling

25 on the 5th encompassed?

Page 1738

1 A. We had a vantage point from where we were seated in the UN

2 building by overlooking the entire valley. As previously explained, the

3 areas on the right which I could not -- I didn't witness myself, but

4 basically we were looking out over the entire valley of Knin and as you

5 can see in my sketch and in the map, that that's the area that could

6 have -- that we observed. So yes, we were looking over the entire and

7 the -- I would say whether -- I wasn't in the areas but I would say the

8 shelling was predominantly downtown, but certainly in the areas indicated

9 as well. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Dreyer, on either the 4th or the 5th of August, did you see

11 any outgoing fire from Knin toward Croatian positions or toward advancing

12 Croatian troops?

13 A. Uniquely, as I previously indicated on my map as well, I did see

14 a mortar position indicated on the map as C, but apart from that, in all

15 honesty, no.

16 Q. And that mortar position you referred to, did you see it firing

17 or you saw the position?

18 A. I saw the position. I saw it being manned. They were certainly

19 active. Did I see firing from it? No, I did not.

20 Q. Now, in your final paragraph of your 2008 statement, as indicated

21 yesterday, you make reference to finding dead civilians, most of which

22 had been shot at close range. As you heard yesterday, the Court was

23 interested in as much specific information about those observations as

24 you are able to provide, so I would ask you to provide as much

25 information as you can about what you observed, when you saw it and where

Page 1739

1 you saw it. Perhaps you can begin by telling us, with reference to those

2 dead civilians, the specific observations that you can recall making.

3 A. I heard the -- what was said yesterday referenced the final

4 paragraph and my indication that I've seen tens of dead. There is no

5 reason for me to exaggerate on how many dead people I've seen, to be

6 quite frank.

7 We were driving around. We've seen -- if I say tens, it was

8 basically that I couldn't recount exactly how many people I saw that was

9 dead, but certainly there was a substantial amount of dead people that we

10 found in various locations as we were driving around. Some of them were

11 old. I recall seeing a man that was definitely in his late 70s. There

12 was a woman, she was definitely in her 70s. They were all shot at close

13 range. I'm not saying by whom. I'm saying they were shot at close

14 range.

15 The two I referred to just now were shot through the head. We

16 found a shallow grave with a man with his hands tied behind his back. He

17 was shot through the head.

18 On the road leading from Knin out on the mountain oust road

19 leading towards Zagreb, we found at least three or four different bodies

20 lying at the side of the road. They were stripped off their clothing,

21 they had their underwear and T-shirts on. They were shot at close range.

22 Within the town of Knin, I think we found one or two. But

23 predominantly it was on the outskirts of the city of Knin themselves

24 where we did observe several dead people, women and men at various ages,

25 none of them dressed in military uniform and shot at close range.

Page 1740

1 Now, it's very difficult for me to explain it in any more detail

2 than that, but that is exactly what we've observed. And it was not only

3 me, there was several people with me, so, yeah.

4 Q. Can you tell us when or approximately when, even if it's a rough

5 time frame, you made these observations?

6 A. I think what I referred to in my statement, the first time we

7 really went out -- the first time that I went out on my first non-rescue

8 related mission was on the 6th of August but on the 9th of August

9 specifically, we were driving around to various villages looking at the

10 extent of the damage. Apart from the dead that we've seen, the dead

11 humans that we've seen, we've also observed almost all cattle, dogs, all

12 animals, pigs, everything was shot in the process as well, so yes.

13 Q. Finally, Mr. Dreyer, you indicated that the encircled areas and

14 the dots representing specific shell impact locations were provided to

15 the best of your recollection at the time but did not represent all of

16 the shelling that took place. You've also explained that on August 4th,

17 during the course of the day, you were travelling essentially the length

18 and breadth of Knin from one end of town to the other. Let me ask you

19 this: As far as you could tell on that day, was there any part of the

20 town that was safe from shelling?

21 A. I think what I did is at the time when I drew this map, I was

22 asked to indicate as specifically as I possibly could recall on where the

23 shelling affected different areas within Knin.

24 On your question was anywhere in Knin safe at the time while I

25 was driving around for the duration of the 4th of August, my answer to

Page 1741

1 your question would be no. What I did over here is I was really trying

2 to be as specific as I could. What I should have done is I should have

3 taken a big pen and drawn a circle right around Knin and not specify and

4 say: This is the area of impact. Because that was the area of impact.

5 Knin itself, in all directions where I travelled, at any given time

6 during the 4th of August, my life and the life of my staff members were

7 at peril.

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. Dreyer.

9 Your Honours, one final matter. Prosecution has generated some

10 maps that make the alphabetical markings and that also consolidate the

11 information contained in the annexes into one document. I provided them

12 to the Defence. Mr. Kehoe asked in particular asked for an opportunity

13 to review those to make sure they indeed conform with the other exhibits

14 but we would like to present those to the Court assuming there's no

15 objection and we'll -- I'm sure that we'll hear from the Defence on that.

16 Otherwise, Your Honour, I've completed my examination in chief.

17 JUDGE ORIE: These -- as a matter of fact, they were provided to

18 the Chamber already, so these are the I'd say the civilised versions of

19 the trips.

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kehoe.

22 MR. KEHOE: No objections, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then we use them to assist us in

24 understanding fully P78, I think, because it's extracted from that one,

25 all the trips.

Page 1742

1 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll use them. They're not in evidence but if

3 there is any -- apart from objections, if there is any inaccuracy in it,

4 for example, I noticed that if the trip says it moves this direction,

5 that direction, then what were two lines now has become one line but that

6 is clear without further explanation.

7 So if there is any inaccuracy we would like to hear. Otherwise,

8 we'll for practical purposes use these maps.

9 Please proceed. Yes, Mr. Tieger, that was your examination in

10 chief?

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have one question for you.

13 You referred to 20 minutes to return. I had some difficulties in

14 finding that reference to the 20 minutes. Was it in the statement, was

15 it in the testimony of yesterday? Because it was --

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it was in yesterday's testimony.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday's testimony at page ... I could search

18 for -- I can search for minutes.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it was on page 1723 at line 17.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I have one problem ... I have not yet the

21 new version of yesterday's transcript but with the word we'll ...

22 MR. TIEGER: And 20 is in the transcript numerically, Your

23 Honour, rather than written.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's yesterday's transcript, the old page

25 numbering is 107:22.

Page 1743

1 Mr. Dreyer, could you indicate exactly -- you said it took you 20

2 minutes to get back to the UN compound. It's position G, I now see.

3 Yes. I found it. Thank you very much.

4 The sequence of cross-examination, Mr. --

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you an opportunity [French spoken].

7 Yes. Judge Gwaunza first has a question.

8 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes, Mr. Dreyer, if I could take you back to

9 paragraph 19 of your written statement on page 6 at the top, the

10 last-but-one sentence of that paragraph at the top. Are you there?

11 THE WITNESS: At the top, ma'am, at paragraph 14 or --


13 THE WITNESS: Page 6.

14 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Paragraph 19.

15 THE WITNESS: Is at the bottom.

16 JUDGE GWAUNZA: But the --

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, at the top.

18 JUDGE GWAUNZA: On page 6, yes. You said, "The bodies of the

19 victims were placed in body bags by our soldiers, only to be removed by

20 Croatians and driven over by their tanks." Could you explain that what

21 you meant by driven over?

22 THE WITNESS: I can, ma'am. What happened was when the -- when

23 the mortar round impacted on the site of the UN building on the road,

24 several people were killed. I believe that I indicated five to six, I

25 believe.

Page 1744

1 We were not allowed at that point on the 1st to leave the

2 compound but the Canadian soldiers were. They took some body bags, they

3 went outside and they placed the dead inside body bags and they placed

4 the body bags on the side of the road and returned to the camp. Only

5 later for -- when the Croatian military actually arrived at the edge of

6 the compound for some of the bodies to be removed from the side of the

7 road and driven over by tanks.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not entirely clear. You said, "Some of

10 the bodies to be removed." So may I then take it that some of these body

11 bags were taken by Croatian soldiers and loaded on to whatever and then

12 taken away and that --

13 THE WITNESS: No. No, Your Honour. It means that the body

14 bags --


16 THE WITNESS: -- as they were with the bodies inside were taken

17 from the side of the road, placed in the road, and then driven over by

18 tanks.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I understand. They were put on the road,

20 tanks would come, drive over the --

21 THE WITNESS: Correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- bodies. Yes. That clarifies it.

23 Mr. Kehoe.

24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You will be the first one to cross-examine.

Page 1745

1 MR. KEHOE: I will be the first.


3 Mr. Dreyer, you will be cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe, who is

4 counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dreyer.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Did you get my messages where we had been attempting to speak to

10 you for some time?

11 A. I've received your messages. Do you want me to clarify that?

12 Q. Did you get the various messages from counsel at UNICEF that we

13 were trying to concept you?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And you did not agree to any such conversation with General

16 Gotovina's Defence team, did you?

17 A. It was not up to me.

18 Q. Sir, let me ask you some questions about that particular time in

19 Sector South. You were the UN security coordinator for Sector South; is

20 that right?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And how long were you in that job as of August of 1995?

23 A. In the specific in Knin?

24 Q. In the specific position in Knin.

25 A. Not more than two months.

Page 1746

1 Q. Had you ever been a security coordinator prior to that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where had you been a security coordinator?

4 A. In Zagreb.

5 Q. And during what period of time?

6 A. About six months leading towards that.

7 Q. Now, you mentioned in your statement that you had been in the

8 South African Defence force. Had you been in combat prior to this?

9 A. Can you define combat, please?

10 Q. Combat where there is shooting fired in anger, if you will?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And where was that?

13 A. Within South African territories.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please observe a pause between

15 question and answer, please.

16 MR. KEHOE: I apologise.

17 Q. Now, sir, going back to the time that you spent in Knin --

18 May I have one moment, Your Honour.

19 So you became the security coordinator in approximately June of

20 1995; is that right?

21 A. I believe so, yes.

22 Q. And during that time, virtually every male in that area was part

23 of the army of the Serb Krajina; weren't they?

24 A. No, that's not up for me to say now.

25 Q. Well, isn't it a fact, sir, that that -- virtually every male up

Page 1747

1 to -- into the 50s had been brought into the army of the Serb Krajina?

2 A. I don't know. It's -- no, I've got no knowledge of that.

3 Q. Well, I mean when you were in your job as the security

4 coordinator, did you have regular meetings within the compound to assess

5 what was going on in your area of responsibility?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And did that include exactly what was transpiring not only on the

8 Serb Krajina side, but also on the Croatian side?

9 A. Transpiring from which perspective, please.

10 Q. Either militarily or troop movement wise or what was happening in

11 the area.

12 A. If I had that kind of knowledge, I wouldn't been racing downtown

13 Knin 5.00 in the morning trying to get my staff, so yes, I did have -- I

14 did meet with military commanders, we did meet with the police. We did

15 use the military itself. But did I have specific information that you

16 are referring to, no, I did not.

17 Q. Okay, sir. So let me show you a video that is ID15-0064. It

18 is -- excuse me, I'm sorry, it is 3070 -- I'm sorry, which one is this?

19 Here it is, ID 150063, that's the B/C/S and -- this is a video from TV in

20 Belgrade up to Serb Krajina generals, General Novakovic and

21 Sekulic, S-e-k-u-l-i-c.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In fact, the average age of the

24 army of Serbian Krajina is 47 years. These were indeed already middle

25 aged people. I calculated the average age in several companies that I

Page 1748

1 observed and the average age of the companies was 56 and the average age

2 in the brigade composed of such companies was 53 years."


4 Q. Mr. Dreyer, when you were talking about matters within the UN

5 compound, were you aware of the ages of the men in the RSK and that men

6 in their -- into their 50s and older were part of the army of the Serb

7 Krajina?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. So that was -- that was not a matter that was discussed on the UN

10 compound?

11 A. That was not part of my responsibilities. My responsibilities

12 included the safety and security of the United Nations personnel in Knin.

13 Q. And part of the safety and security of the United Nations

14 personnel in Knin was knowing who the armed elements were on both sides;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. Certainly, but not the age of the armed element.

17 Q. Well, in order to know the size of the armed elements, it's

18 important to know the individual characteristics of those elements, isn't

19 it?

20 A. No, actually not. My responsibility did not include the -- to

21 dissect exactly what the military forces was comprised of. My

22 responsibility was to make sure that I make sure that my staff were safe

23 and my staff was alive at the end of the day to go back home. So the age

24 groups of the individual soldiers within the military was not known to

25 me.

Page 1749

1 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we will offer this video

2 into evidence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

4 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It's not on the record, I take it but -- yes, no

6 objection. Even without a microphone, your voice is heard clearly,

7 Mr. Tieger.

8 Then Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that becomes Exhibit D101.

10 JUDGE ORIE: D101 is admitted into evidence.


12 Q. Mr. Dreyer, were you aware that virtually the entire population

13 in Knin prior to Operation Storm on the 4th of August was armed?

14 A. No, I was not.

15 Q. Were you aware, sir, where the military supply depots were in the

16 area?

17 A. No, I did not.

18 Q. Were you aware where the factories in the area that were

19 producing military supplies were?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Well, let us talk a little bit, and we'll go through this

22 quickly, about the period of time just prior to Operation Storm. You

23 were aware that the Milan Martic of the Krajina Serbs declared war on the

24 28th of July of 1995; weren't you?

25 A. No, I was not.

Page 1750

1 Q. Were you aware that Grahovo fell to the HV forces on the 29th of

2 January -- July, excuse me?

3 A. It's 14 years ago. In all honesty, what you're saying now, I

4 believe I did, but if I had any knowledge of the situation that the

5 advancing forces were going to invade Knin, my staff would have been in

6 compound.

7 Q. Well --

8 A. They would not have been living in town.

9 Q. I understand that, sir, but you're aware Grahovo fell on the

10 29th?

11 A. On the specific dates, no, I can't recollect.

12 Q. Approximately?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were you aware that shortly after that that the Serb civilian

15 population began to leave in buses, did you know that?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly asked to make pauses

18 between questions and answers, thank you.

19 MR. KEHOE: Again, I apologise.

20 Q. Did you observe that after the fall of Grahovo that the Krajina

21 Serb employees on the UN compound, many of them stopped coming to work?

22 A. That is not correct.

23 Q. It is not correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Well, you were aware that you did observe, and I point to

Page 1751

1 paragraph 3 of your February 2008 statement, you were aware that around

2 August the 1st, you saw RSK tanks, six or seven RSK tanks moving towards

3 the front line?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And what front line were they moving towards?

6 A. They were moving towards the front line indicated by the military

7 to us, we didn't know exactly where it was.

8 Q. Did you get an idea where the front line was going?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So are you telling us that prior to the 4th of August, you had no

11 indication that war was coming?

12 A. I will try and say this again. If I had any knowledge whatsoever

13 that an invading force was coming to Knin, my staff members and the code

14 that the country was operating underneath our security regulations would

15 not have been in orange, it would have been in red. My staff would not

16 have been in their civilian residence and they would have been in the UN

17 compound if we had any indication that this was coming.

18 Q. Isn't it a fact -- I'm sorry, I apologise.

19 MR. KEHOE: I'm getting a little ahead of myself, Your Honour,

20 just waiting to catch up.

21 Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that after the fall of Grahovo, you advised

22 the personnel in the UN compound that were living outside the compound to

23 keep a bag packed?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. And when was that?

Page 1752

1 A. I can't recollect, but I certainly did advise them. It's part of

2 our security planning, we do that all the time, we advise staff to keep a

3 bag packed under stage green.

4 Q. So are you saying that -- when did you go to stage orange?

5 A. We were in stage orange at the point.

6 Q. And when did you advise these people that they should keep a bag

7 packed?

8 A. That is part of our normal procedures. We advise them to keep a

9 bag packed whenever they go to a regular area.

10 Q. So you told them to keep a bag packed all the time?

11 A. United Nations staff is always advised to have a bag packed ready

12 for relocation at all times, yes.

13 Q. And did you yourself move to the compound at some point?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. I can't recall, but it was certainly before the 4th of August.

17 Q. Approximately when?

18 A. I would say a couple of days before that.

19 Q. And so if -- we're talking about the 2nd of August?

20 A. No, but -- I can't recall, but certainly ahead of that, yes.

21 Q. And did other people move to the compound at that time?

22 A. Yes, some people did, specifically people with responsibility

23 that had them at work more than regular hours, so it was just preferable

24 to stay within the compound.

25 Q. So with people coming into the compound --

Page 1753

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Kehoe.

2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Take a breath now and then.

4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, I understand, Judge.

5 Q. So, sir, so after -- sometime several days before the Operation

6 Storm, people were coming in the compound; right?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And you had no knowledge that there was any discussion that some

9 type of war -- that some type of fighting was going to take place, is

10 that what you're saying?

11 A. Fighting was going on. We knew fighting was going on.

12 Q. And where was the fighting going on?

13 A. The fighting was happening at the front line.

14 Q. Where was the front line?

15 A. At that point in time, we were relying --

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. -- definitely and wholeheartedly on the military that was

18 assigned to us recommendations where it was. So at that point in time,

19 the front line was not close to Knin.

20 Q. Well, the front line is up by the Dinara mountains, wasn't it?

21 A. Was it?

22 Q. I'm asking you, sir. You were there.

23 A. I don't know. The front line was certainly an area that was in

24 the vicinity, but was it to close to Knin to my knowledge, no.

25 Q. Sir, prior to the morning of the 4th, did you receive information

Page 1754

1 from any of the UN staff that an attack was going to take place at 5.00

2 in the morning of the 4th of August?

3 A. Can you repeat your question, please?

4 Q. Prior to the morning of the 4th of August, 1995, were you

5 informed that an attack was going to take place by HV forces on 4 August

6 1995 at approximately 5.00 a.m.?

7 A. Can I clarify. Are you referring to a date before the 4th of

8 August?

9 Q. A date before the 4th of August.

10 A. To my recollection today, no.

11 Q. So if information to that level came into UN Sector South

12 headquarters prior to August the 4th, you were not informed?

13 A. If that information came into Sector South headquarters that Knin

14 was going to be attacked prior to the 4th of August, 5.00 in the morning,

15 I was not informed, yes.

16 Q. Who made the decision -- I apologise. Who made the decision as

17 to when the alert level was going to go from orange to red?

18 A. The decision on the alert levels at that point in time was in the

19 hands of the military.

20 Q. And who in the military?

21 A. In the military within our compound it rested with the Chief of

22 Staff.

23 Q. And who was that?

24 A. The Chief of Staff at the time was Colonel Leslie.

25 Q. By the way, when was the last time you spoke to General Leslie?

Page 1755

1 A. I didn't know that he was a General. As far as I recall, he's a

2 Colonel, and the last time I spoke to him was in Knin.

3 Q. And that would be in 1995?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. So the military made the decision to go -- make that change from

6 orange to red; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when was that change made?

9 A. If I read back at my statement and to the best of my

10 recollection, that decision was made 4.00 in the morning on the 4th of

11 August.

12 Q. And there was never any indication prior to 4.00 in the morning

13 on the 4th of August, now I'm talking about from the night before until

14 4.00, there was never any indication prior to 4.00 in the morning on the

15 4th of August that anything was going to happen at 5.00 a.m.; is that

16 right?

17 A. Are you referring to my knowledge or to the knowledge of anybody

18 else?

19 Q. I'm referring only to your knowledge, sir.

20 A. My knowledge, no. My only recollection was 4.00 in the morning.

21 Q. Now, sir, on this particular point, during your time there, did

22 the Republic of Serb Krajina ever declare that the city of Knin was a

23 demilitarised city?

24 A. Can you clarify, please.

25 Q. Do you know what I demilitarised city is?

Page 1756

1 A. Where no military is present.

2 Q. No military is present, no military activity.

3 A. I don't know if they declared it a demilitarised city, no.

4 Q. You don't know that?

5 A. I do not.

6 Q. You spent time in the armed forces yourself; is that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And you are aware of military targets, are you not?

9 A. I am.

10 Q. And would you consider army barracks military targets?

11 A. I would.

12 Q. Police stations?

13 A. Depending in which context.

14 Q. What context are you talking about?

15 A. I don't know. Which context are you referring to, sir?

16 Q. I'm examining your question, Mr. Dreyer. Is a police station in

17 Knin a military target?

18 A. If the police station in my opinion was armed, if the police

19 station was hostile, then yes. If there was no one there and the police

20 station was not hostile, then certainly not.

21 Q. How about the headquarters of the Main Staff of the army, would

22 you consider that a military target?

23 A. Reference back to my previous answer, again, hostility intent,

24 how many people was present, the answer would be if they were hostile,

25 yes; if they were not, then no.

Page 1757

1 Q. You would agree with me, would you not, that the headquarters of

2 the Main Staff of the army is the central point of an army, isn't it?

3 A. If it's manned.

4 Q. If it's manned or unmanned, if they have equipment in there or

5 anything else, that particular headquarters is the main central locale

6 for an army, isn't it, the headquarters?

7 A. It certainly depends on what's around it and what's in it. If

8 you're referring to whether I believe that the central headquarters of a

9 military is a legitimate target, my answer is it depends what's inside of

10 it, how aggressive it is and what's around it.

11 Q. Okay, sir. And when -- let's take that point, what's around it.

12 And you would agree as a military person that military authorities should

13 not put a military target in an area where civilians lives, should they?

14 A. Military targets in -- military headquarters in many countries,

15 including the one that we are in, is around civilian targets. It's just

16 the nature of the layout of a city.

17 Q. So your answer to the question is putting a military headquarters

18 in and among a civilian area housed by civilians is okay?

19 A. At this point in time, military headquarters around the globe is

20 housed around civilian areas. Now, as I previously tried to explain to

21 you, if the military headquarters was an aggressive front line military

22 headquarters, it's a different story. But a lot of military headquarters

23 are a place of -- where people come generally to do work. It's not

24 necessarily an aggressive force, in my opinion.

25 Q. How about a military headquarters when that country has declared

Page 1758

1 war?

2 A. Sure.

3 Q. What does that mean? Does that then --

4 A. I don't know what your question is.

5 Q. Does that render it a military target?

6 A. Can I go back to what I said? If it was hostile, if it was

7 hostile, sure. If it wasn't, then no.

8 Q. How about communication centres, sir, is that a legitimate

9 military target?

10 A. We'll go back to it. If the communications centre was part of

11 the aggression and part of the threat, then certainly, yes.

12 Q. How about factories that are involved in making military

13 supplies?

14 A. Depending on what the factories are making, are they making

15 military supplies in the form of first aid kits, are they making military

16 supplies in the form of band-aids, are they making bombs, I mean, it all

17 depends on what the factory is delivering.

18 Q. So your answer to that question is it all depends on what

19 factories are delivering?

20 A. Correct, and if the factory is active.

21 Q. Let's us turn to your first exhibit, if we may. And I think

22 it's -- not the first one. Let's just go to P79.

23 MR. KEHOE: It might be easier to read, Mr. Monkhouse, if we go

24 to P73. I apologise.

25 Q. Now, P73 -- I'm sorry. Do you have that with you, sir?

Page 1759

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Okay. P73 is the trip -- your first trip; is that right?

3 A. The one I'm looking at the screen, yes.

4 Q. Okay. And if we can just blow up the bottom part of that page

5 coming out of the UN compound. If we can blow up that just a little bit

6 more around the parliament building. We can just shift it over a little

7 bit to the right. I'm sorry, I meant to the left. That's good.

8 Now, that area, that's the street, main street going down Knin,

9 isn't it?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. And you identified that as an area that had been shelled during

12 the period of time that you went out on the 4th of August on your first

13 trip.

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And by the way, your first trip out, that was with you and

16 Mr. DeKlerk?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And you took two soft-skinned vehicles?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Was there anyone else from the UN compound with you?

21 A. Yes, I believe we had -- in each vehicle we had a Jordanian

22 soldier.

23 Q. Now, taking a look in that area, and we're looking at the area to

24 the parliament, I'd like to address your attention to Exhibit D20. I'm

25 sorry, D20. If we can blow that up just into one, please.

Page 1760

1 Now, sir, that is a photograph from behind the street that you

2 drove down on your first trip out of the complex, isn't it?

3 A. I don't know, really. I've never seen this before. If you can

4 indicate to me where the street is, I can help you out.

5 Q. Well, if can look, if you can look -- you see where the railway

6 is?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. If you can just drift into that street, you see it on the

9 right-hand side?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. You see the street and just follow it up.

12 A. Mm-hm.

13 Q. That's the main street, isn't it?

14 A. From the picture, that's what it appears to be, yes.

15 Q. Now, on that main street that you indicate was being shelled, is

16 a series of buildings identified to the left as the buildings complex of

17 the Main Staff of the ARSK, isn't it?

18 A. I don't know. If you show me the picture -- if you say it is,

19 then -- I don't know. I wasn't aware of it.

20 Q. You were not aware that that was the headquarters or the Main

21 Staff headquarters of the army of the Serb Krajina?

22 A. I've never seen this picture before. I'm not quite sure even if

23 the picture, I recognise the picture. But if -- I don't even know on the

24 map exactly where the picture is at. It seems to me like it's closer

25 towards the beginning of the railway station. On the map that I have it

Page 1761

1 seems to be the parliament building. No, I wasn't aware that that entire

2 complex was, no.

3 Q. Were you aware that the Main Staff had their headquarters there?

4 A. I was not.

5 Q. Let's turn our attention to D -- excuse me, I take that back,

6 1D15-0068.

7 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, can I just go into private session for

8 30 seconds just by a point of clarification.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll move into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1762

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


16 Q. Now, Mr. Dreyer, to orient you with this photograph, do you

17 recognise this overhead of Knin going down the main street?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Okay. And this is the main street that you went down, is it not?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And if you agree with me, just going through these targets in

22 this locale, the -- you see over in one on the right-hand side is the

23 military barracks Senjak, you recognise that?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Okay. And number two is the bridge location. And by the way,

Page 1763

1 just looking at that bridge location in number two, you're familiar with

2 the bridge location there and the tunnel, aren't you?

3 A. I'm not.

4 Q. Well, did you know that there was a tunnel in and around the

5 bridge location number two where the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina

6 had an armoured train to travel on the rails with anti-aircraft weaponry

7 and other anti-personnel weaponry? Were you aware of that?

8 A. In that specific location, two, no, but I have seen the train,

9 yes.

10 Q. Tell us a little bit about this train.

11 A. I actually saw the train after the 4th of August, way after the

12 4th of August and I didn't -- the understanding that I had and that I

13 think most of us had at the time was the train was not Serbian, that the

14 train was Croatian. I didn't understand that the train was actually was

15 Serbian.

16 Q. Well, it could have been Croatian after the 5th of August, but

17 I'm talking about prior to that.

18 A. I never saw it prior to that.

19 Q. Okay. So you were unaware that that train -- that the Serbs had

20 that train in that tunnel around two?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, the train that you did see obviously could move on the

23 tracks, couldn't it?

24 A. It was on the tracks, yes.

25 Q. Let's go to three. Number three is an intersection in and

Page 1764

1 through Knin, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You're aware of that location?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, sometimes the -- not only the speed of

5 speech but also the speed of thought goes beyond my abilities. We're

6 talking about a train. The witness says: "I have not seen that train

7 before the 4th of August," he said, "but I saw an armoured train far

8 after the 4th of August."

9 Now, you are in your questions implicitly drawing conclusions

10 that it was the same train and then you say it was on the tracks, which

11 is highly suggestive for the Chamber to know about a train that was there

12 on the 4th of August or around the 4th of August, but if we have not

13 established that it's the same train, all conclusions about what the

14 witness saw later and he says was it a Croatian train and where you

15 suggested that it might be the same, and of course I can follow that

16 suggestion. But then to move on with the speed of a train, I would say,

17 and then to suggest that what was valid for the one train is valid for

18 the other train as well needs precise exploration rather than ...

19 So therefore, I'm -- please try to understand what this Chamber

20 has to do; that if you want us to believe that something was true for the

21 train you say, we didn't know whether it was or not but the witness

22 certainly did not confirm that, was there around the 4th of August, that

23 you can't just go to another train or the same train without having

24 established whether it was the same train or not.

25 And in your questions, it's all implied and that may be a trial

Page 1765

1 technique but it certainly doesn't assist the Chamber in precisely and

2 carefully considering what evidence comes to us.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Frankly, it's the tension between

5 complete clarity and expediency and trying to move the matter along,

6 frankly, and I understand some of the scheduling issues and ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: Expediency usually asks that you -- that you are

8 selective and, for example, not ask the same question twice or three

9 times, as happened this morning only at least a couple of times. So

10 therefore you can gain a lot of time there and then gain precision on

11 other matters.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. KEHOE: I understand.

14 Q. Mr. Dreyer, just clarifying the train situation, where did you

15 see the train that you saw, observed?

16 A. I saw the train on the train tracks at the railway station.

17 Q. The railway station in Knin?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And can you describe it?

20 A. As you say, it was quite unique. I've never seen anything like

21 it before. It was an armoured train. Did I see the weaponry on it, the

22 anti-aircraft weapons you're referring to, no, but certainly it looked

23 like a menacing train, sure. Did I know who the train belonged to, no, I

24 did not.

25 Q. Now, the train tracks, this was at the train tracks in downtown

Page 1766

1 Knin?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Let's go back to the exhibit that's on the screen and turn our

4 attention to point 5 and that is in fact the main railway station. Do

5 you see that, sir?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Is that where you saw this train?

8 A. I can't remember if it was exactly at 5 or possibly further up

9 the track but it was certainly in Knin.

10 Q. I'm not looking for precision in that, just the general area.

11 A. That was not in general area 5, no.

12 Q. It was not?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So --

15 A. I wouldn't be able to say. Like I tried to explain, it was

16 certainly on the railway tracks. It was certainly in Knin. Whether it

17 was specifically at 5, the answer is I can't recall.

18 Q. Number 6, this is the particular area that we discussed in

19 Exhibit D20, and number 7 is the parliament and government building.

20 Were you aware of that location along the road?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. Now, number 9 is known as the seniors' home. Were you aware of

23 what that building was used for?

24 A. No, I was not.

25 Q. Did you know where ARSK soldiers and -- excuse me, officers were

Page 1767

1 staying when they came to Knin?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Now, number 10 is a railroad -- excuse me, a railway

4 communications centre. Are you aware of that location?

5 A. No, I'm not.

6 Q. And the building that is known as the 11, old hospital building,

7 were you aware of the use by that by ARSK military?

8 A. No, I was not.

9 Q. Finally, you can see the number 12 on the edge of this photograph

10 which is the TVIK factory; do you see that?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. On the right-hand side. And that was a factory that was in Knin

13 and was hit by artillery at the time, wasn't it?

14 A. I don't know whether it was hit by artillery but I know it was a

15 factory.

16 Q. Well, you did circle it in your map, didn't you?

17 A. If you can just give me a second. Can you indicate to me on my

18 map where it is, please?

19 Q. Sorry sir, could you repeat that?

20 A. Can you indicate to me on my map where the TVIK factory is,

21 please.

22 Q. Sure. If you travel up your map from B up past H, it is to the

23 right of your letter H.

24 A. There is two circles, there is a large circle and a small circle.

25 Are you referring to the large circle?

Page 1768

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Yes, then it was shelled.

3 Q. Okay. Did you know that was a factory?

4 A. I knew it was a factory, sure.

5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, did you want to take the normal break

6 now or did you want to continue or ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends. We -- we could have a break a bit

8 later, but that means only that we have shorter sessions later on so

9 therefore, if this would be a suitable moment for you, then we would have

10 a break and if you would like to continue for a couple of minutes, it's

11 no problem.

12 MR. KEHOE: It's -- I'm going to move to another exhibit at this

13 point so ...

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break now and resume at 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.

18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. At this time, the

19 Defence would like to offer into evidence 1D15-0068, the item that's on

20 the screen entitled "Fired planned targets".

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit D102.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I take it based on earlier events that there is no

24 objection. Then it is admitted into evidence.

25 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I would like to refer back to the train

Page 1769

1 issue and I do have a new video taken by TV Montenegro in Knin. I do not

2 have -- because it came up, I didn't have the audio. I will get the

3 audio at a later time. The only item I would like to do at this point is

4 show it to the witness and ask if he can identify this as the train.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Do we need the audio? I take it that the audio will

6 explain what it is and isn't it true that -- I don't know, but it might

7 be, whereas this witness of course, I take it that you him to compare

8 what he has seen.

9 MR. KEHOE: I'm looking at the actual, you know, video itself.

10 The audio at a later juncture, as long as I can get square with the

11 interpretation that everybody has the correct interpretation, I would --

12 JUDGE ORIE: We have no transcript of this?

13 MR. KEHOE: Not at this time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's impossible for the interpreters to interpret

15 without having a transcript, especially when the speed of speech is such

16 that -- if you say they are talking very slowly ...

17 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, maybe I misspoke. I'm not going to play

18 the audio.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You are not going to play the audio.

20 MR. KEHOE: No. I'm sorry. I was just saying that there is

21 audio, I'm not going to play the audio because I don't the transcript

22 and --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I misunderstood you. Then we'll look at

24 the video and -- without paying any attention to the audio.

25 Please proceed.

Page 1770

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Mr. Dreyer, you had the opportunity to review that video. Does

4 that appear to be the train?

5 A. I couldn't really see anything. I saw the two people being

6 interviewed, that's it. But what I can say is the train that I saw, I

7 took a picture of it so I've got a picture of the train that I saw and if

8 I can recollect, it had a Croatian emblem on the side of the -- on the

9 train. This train did not appear to be the train that I saw. I just

10 don't know, I didn't see enough of the train to be able to tell you.

11 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we'll offer this video into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then the video is admitted into evidence. Whatever

16 probative value to be attached to it at this moment, Mr. Kehoe, is -- we

17 know that there was a train and there were two people interviewed.

18 MR. KEHOE: I will tell you, Judge, that I will enhance the

19 weight of this exhibit as time moves on.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then you say you'll find other evidence --

21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- that will corroborate this evidence.

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way -- would it be of any use to ask

25 the witness or would you have any information which we would then receive

Page 1771

1 in evidence as to who the people were who were interviewed? Usually if

2 you're so close to a train, you have got something to do with that train

3 and I saw uniformed people. I'm not able to identify what kind of

4 uniforms or what army they were.

5 MR. KEHOE: They were Krajina Serb military personnel.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's at least that's what you want to

7 present evidence on.

8 MR. KEHOE: As an officer of the Court, I can present that to

9 you. I will tie that up at a later date but --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.


12 Q. Now, Mr. Dreyer, I'd like to take you through a series of slides,

13 if I may.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps.

15 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- one additional question because otherwise -- do

17 you know when this footage was filmed?

18 MR. KEHOE: It appears to be taken --

19 JUDGE ORIE: And where?

20 MR. KEHOE: It appears to have been taken in Knin in -- sometime

21 in 1992.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. It will be tendered, no objections

23 but, a number has not been assigned to it. Mr. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D103.

25 JUDGE ORIE: D103 is admitted into evidence.

Page 1772

1 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

3 Now, if I may turn to -- it is 1D15-0021 and it goes through

4 1D15-0042.

5 Q. Mr. Dreyer, I'd like to take you through some of these slides, if

6 we can. And it will refer back to the maps that you drew and some of the

7 locations that you testified about as well as identified in your

8 statement. So please feel free to refer back to the hard copies that you

9 have before you. Okay?

10 A. That's fine.

11 Q. And if we can turn to the next page of this document -- can you

12 just blow that up just a little bit. At you can orient the Court, you

13 recognise this overhead, do you not, as the city of Knin?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Can you just orient the Court as to using the cursor and maybe

16 with the assistance of the usher we could do that just a bit.

17 Just looking at this photograph, I mean if you can just point

18 with an X as to where the UN compound was.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, we've seen and heard that --

20 MR. KEHOE: Okay. We can just --

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- not 20 times, then 30 times. Please proceed.

22 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if everybody is oriented, that's fine.

23 Let us move to the next slide then. That's the first slide. The next

24 slide.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Dreyer, take a look at this slide and these are the

Page 1773

1 areas that you circled in your exhibits; is that right? And I'm talking

2 about P79.

3 A. Is that any different from my map?

4 Q. I submit to you that it's not and I certainly hope that it's not.

5 It was an attempt to be as accurate as possible with the items that you

6 put on your map.

7 A. It will take me some time to go over it but by looking at it

8 briefly, it certainly seems that you've captured most of the areas, if

9 not all.

10 Q. And I ask you, sir, if as we're going through this, if you see

11 anything that we got wrong, could you please correct us?

12 A. I'll try my best.

13 MR. TIEGER: Okay. Your Honour, excuse me. I suppose I asked

14 this question and it is a question rather than an objection per se. But

15 I don't understand why we're using a replica of another exhibit that

16 purports to be the same exhibit and contain the same information.

17 MR. KEHOE: Well, I think --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Exactly, because it's not the same, Mr. Kehoe.

19 MR. KEHOE: Well, it is --

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at -- if you look, for example, at

21 letter G, which originally was outside the area where it's now inside an

22 area, it's relocated -- the letter G is relocated in comparison with the

23 original.

24 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, the reason why the replication takes

25 place will become clear as I move through these slides. I don't think

Page 1774

1 there's any question that when the witness was talking about the letter

2 G, he's talking about an area that is generally in that locale. I

3 certainly will move that G outside that if need be.

4 THE WITNESS: I was not -- the letter G is not where it was, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's what I'm saying. I mean we have now a

7 different version and you said you hoped that it was exactly the same.

8 It's not. And I have -- that's just on first sight, so therefore, I

9 think the question put by Mr. Tieger: Why not use the one produced by

10 the witness if it's not exactly the same, this one, I would prefer to go

11 to the original then.

12 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I may, I will -- if I can go through

13 this and I will change that as need be. I certainly can move that G

14 outside that. It was nothing more than an oversight, simply at this

15 juncture. It was not meant to be --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but what does it add to present a new version

17 of exactly the same? Apparently. I think the only change that's changed

18 a bit are the colours, isn't it?

19 MR. KEHOE: Well, I think --

20 JUDGE ORIE: It's purple now where it used to be red, yes.

21 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge and if I'm permitted to go through

22 this, we can certainly refer back to the Prosecution's exhibit but if I

23 can go through the particular slides that I have in this particular

24 fashion, I can make the appropriate changes on that. And any other

25 change that Mr. Dreyer maintains should be made. But for the sake of

Page 1775

1 moving through the questioning at this point, if we could move through

2 this slide -- these slides that I have prepared in this juncture, I will

3 make the appropriate corrections.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But what I do not understand, Mr. Kehoe, that if

5 it's exactly the same, then I do not see why this would work any better.

6 But Mr. Tieger, instead of spending another ten minutes on which

7 copy to be used, or to be strong objection against proceeding as

8 Mr. Kehoe -- I mean, it's clear that it doesn't make the Chamber very

9 happy what happens at this moment, but at the same time, if we could

10 proceed.

11 But, Mr. Kehoe, if at any later stage we find similar matters,

12 then you have less time for cross-examination. Please proceed.

13 MR. KEHOE: Other than the -- thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Other than the particular area that's noted as the G, I mean is

15 basically the other matters consistent?

16 A. From looking at it initially, yes. But now that G -- there might

17 be some other differences but I mean like you said, if we encounter them

18 as we go, I'll let you know.

19 Q. Thank you. Now let us move to the next slide. Now, sir, I have

20 identified in yellow and I will identify further some of the areas and

21 they are marked in yellow and I have noted them as military targets. And

22 other than the inclusion of that, you understand that that's an overlay

23 over your particular marks that you had put in your document.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, is it true that the map you present at

25 this moment goes far beyond the map that was marked by this witness?

Page 1776

1 MR. KEHOE: Yes, it does.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's the second difference.

3 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge.


5 MR. KEHOE: This is -- what I am attempting to do here is track

6 the -- this particular item, as I put on the bottom there, are areas

7 referred to by the Witness Dreyer and then I have marked in yellow --


9 MR. KEHOE: -- military targets.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, please proceed.


12 Q. So we will get into those, sir, but you see -- observe those

13 yellow targets?

14 A. I see the yellow. Whether they were targets or not, I don't

15 know.

16 Q. I understand.

17 A. I see the yellow, yes.

18 Q. If we can move on to the next item. This is essentially, sir, an

19 item where we have put yellow pins in areas that are designated as the

20 military targets.

21 If we could go to the next slide.

22 You see them out the particular circles.

23 And now the next slide. Now, sir, I have attempted to identify

24 some of the items that are in there. Of course we have previously talked

25 about the northern barracks, and that is in one of the pins that's under

Page 1777

1 the names, but let me just go through some of these items as we talk

2 about it. And looking at the top, are you familiar with the factories up

3 in the Kninjanka, and that's up at the northern part of the map? Do you

4 know that that makes military supplies and manufactures military supplies

5 and is a storage for the military?

6 A. No, I do not.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Can I just make an observation on the map, please?

9 Q. Yes, sir.

10 A. The areas indicated in purple versus the areas indicated in

11 yellow, the yellow pins are relatively much larger than the orange pins.

12 Can we -- it's just not in perspective to for me to --

13 Q. What I hope to designate because it actually is going to get

14 quite crowded, I put those pins -- the purple pins in there to show the

15 general areas that you have circled because we are going to put more

16 information on this as we overlay, and I invite you at any point, please,

17 to go back to your original map.

18 A. I have it in front of me.

19 Q. Okay. So you have no idea what's made as the Kninjanka depot; is

20 that right?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. How about if you move to the right to the Dizel depot, do you

23 know that was the headquarters of the state security service and also a

24 rail yard?

25 A. Can you show on my map where it is. I can see on your map where

Page 1778

1 it is.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. To answer your question, no, I do not, but I mean can you show on

4 my map where it is, please.

5 Q. I think if we can go back to your map it is -- and follow the

6 road up from the train station. If we can go back to P73. P73, I'm

7 sorry, P. And if we can just going up to --

8 JUDGE ORIE: This is the first trip?

9 MR. KEHOE: This is the first trip. I'm just identifying the

10 Dizel depot, and if we can just go up further up the photograph, up, up.

11 And you see the -- what looks like a train yard there at the bottom

12 portion of it -- of the photograph.

13 THE WITNESS: I can see it.


15 Q. Do you agree that is the Dizel depot as both a rail yard and the

16 headquarters of the state security service?

17 A. Is that a question?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. Okay. If we can go back to the slide. Now, moving down to the

21 bottom part, there is a depot called the depot Krka and -- which is a

22 military storage area at the bottom portion of that. Are you familiar

23 with that as a military storage facility?

24 A. If I look at my map and I look at your map, that's not even in my

25 map.

Page 1779

1 Q. I'm just asking if you're familiar with that area.

2 A. You asked me to point out if I see any differences between your

3 map and my map. The difference is --

4 JUDGE ORIE: That has already been dealt with. I already told

5 Mr. Kehoe that we have a map of a larger area at this moment on our

6 screen.

7 Mr. Kehoe wants to see to what extent you were aware of where you

8 say possible military targets, at least, what the Defence considers to be

9 military targets, and were you aware of the existence of the depot Krka

10 as we see it on this map?

11 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.


14 Q. Now, the other area that I would like to just highlight is on the

15 left-hand side of that, which is the residential building of Milan

16 Martic. Were you aware of Milan -- well, first of all, were you aware

17 that Milan Martic was the president of the Republic of Serb Krajina?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. And were you aware that he lived at that location?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Now, one question about the retirement home which is two names

22 down --

23 A. Excuse me, can I ask you a question. Which ones of the pins

24 represents his residence, please?

25 Q. You see the highlighted yellow right next to the t-i-c?

Page 1780

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Right there, sir.

3 A. Okay. Thank you.

4 Q. Now the retirement home, do you see that, sir?

5 A. On your map, yes, I do.

6 Q. Do you know whether that was used as a operation facility by

7 Milan Martic prior to and on the 4th of August of 1995?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, isn't it true that you have asked this

9 question already in relation of a different matter?

10 MR. KEHOE: I'm not certain.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The retirement home, you asked whether the witness

12 was aware what it was used for. The witness answered that he didn't

13 know.

14 MR. KEHOE: And I just altered the question to ask him if he knew

15 that Martic was using it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you do not know what it's used for, then you

17 certainly would not know these kind of things.

18 MR. KEHOE: I will move on, Judge.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


21 Q. Now, let's turn to the next slide, which is your -- a tracking of

22 your first trip through Knin. Now, comparing that to the -- your

23 originals, that is roughly the area that you went through, isn't it?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And let's turn to the next slide. And these are some of the

Page 1781

1 areas in larger circles where you indicated that you either saw or

2 observed detonations; right? And you can compare it to your map.

3 A. Certainly on the road where I was at where location G is on the

4 map here, where location G is, I was actually there.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. So at location G right there, I mean certainly we experienced

7 large amount of explosions because that's exactly where we were and

8 that's where the indications on your map in purple is some of the

9 specific impact points, yes, but there was certainly more than that.

10 Q. Okay. I mean in a larger area as you put in your map?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Let's go to the next slide. Now, I put the -- what the Defence

13 submits are military targets in -- back in the pins and followed it along

14 your track. Now, when you are going downtown and through this area, if

15 these were military targets, on your first trip, you were driving right

16 through a series of military targets, weren't you?

17 A. If they were military targets --

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. -- you're correct.

20 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to this -- now, this is the first trip that

21 you took at 6.00 in the morning -- excuse me, I'm sorry, at 4.40 in the

22 morning.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Right. Now, your second trip was when, your second trip,

25 approximately?

Page 1782

1 A. I'm looking at my --

2 Q. Please take your time. You can refer back to your statement,

3 sir.

4 A. Second trip, 6.00.

5 Q. 6.00. And --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, could I ask you one thing.

7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I see this to be the second trip.

9 MR. KEHOE: This is -- on the screen is the first trip, Judge.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's the first -- yes, first.

11 MR. KEHOE: It should be designated at the top, Judge.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any reason why the -- apparently the white

13 itinerary is strong -- is strong white at certain portions where in other

14 portions, it's hardly visible? And I'm mainly referring to the portion

15 where you hardly find any military targets as submitted, that is the area

16 south of, well, let's say the railway complex. You see that, that there

17 is white itinerary which is badly visible, whereas the other route is

18 clearly visible?

19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: There's a distinction in intensity of the white in

21 that area.

22 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I can --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Any reason for that?

24 MR. KEHOE: No, there is none, frankly. I mean other than that's

25 how it came out on the computer. We could --

Page 1783

1 JUDGE ORIE: It could be that -- I don't know how it's produced

2 by a computer that smaller roads are depicted by less intense lines

3 and ...

4 MR. KEHOE: That is certainly a smaller road back behind there.

5 There is no question about that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.

7 MR. KEHOE: This is meant to designate the area that he went

8 back, if you recall in his statement, that he went back in a different

9 fashion, I do recall.

10 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, on the way back to the camp?

11 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: Correct?

13 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


16 Q. Now, sir, let us turn our attention to the second trip and let me

17 get down to the next slide. Now, again, what time of day was this? You

18 were going to refer back to your statement on the time of this second

19 trip.

20 A. I believe I answered that. 6.00.

21 Q. I'm sorry, I misheard.

22 A. I'm just looking at my statement.

23 Q. That's okay. All right. Who did you go with?

24 A. The second trip was done, if I read my statement over here, we

25 took two Jordanian APCs. Obviously we were not driving the APCs so the

Page 1784

1 Jordanian soldiers were driving the APCs, might have been with an escort

2 in my APC, and in the second APC was, reference my statement under

3 paragraph 14, Mr. Dawes.

4 Q. So in -- was he in your APC or the other APC?

5 A. I really can't recall but I believe he was in the second one.

6 Q. Do you recall any other UN personnel besides the Jordanians, you

7 and Mr. Dawes?

8 A. As I was leaving the compound?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Not that I can recall but certainly we picked people up along the

11 way.

12 Q. And those were the ones that you were extracting from the various

13 locations?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Now, if we can take this second trip and if you look down at the

16 item that's on the -- or the slide that's on the screen, can you take a

17 look at that, that would basically represent your --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, is everything -- is the whole itinerary

19 indicated here? I'm trying to find and I'm using at this moment the --

20 this map with the bright colours.

21 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you would look with me on -- and perhaps compare

23 these two maps. If you would look with me to the area, and perhaps we

24 would zoom in so that we have a better idea. I'm mainly interested in

25 the upper area. Yes.

Page 1785

1 Now, you see that there's a kind of a shape on the top part -- I

2 couldn't call it a circle, but at least there is some circular form

3 there. Now, if I look at the second trip map where with colour it's

4 highlighted, then I see a green feature somewhere in the middle of this

5 area.

6 I would very much like -- as a matter of fact, yes, where the at

7 this moment the cursor is, I find part of the second itinerary there.

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, I see.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And I do not see it reflected on this map.

10 MR. KEHOE: And I think that is an oversight on my part and as I

11 look at that, that is an oversight. I think that the actual -- absent

12 that, the actual path that we're following here and the methodology that

13 I'm employing will basically encompass that and I can certainly correct

14 it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If I can see it in one minute, why can't you see if

16 in a couple of hours?

17 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I just -- I plead guilty. I just -- I

18 don't --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

20 MR. KEHOE: I have no specific response to that. I just --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact, I cannot establish at

22 this moment that there's no factual basis for your plea. Please proceed.

23 MR. KEHOE: If we can continue that other than the correction

24 that --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 1786

1 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, this may be of assistance. I'm

2 not sure this is related to the series of questions Mr. Kehoe intends to

3 ask, but it's a point I would have clarified in redirect, if necessary,

4 but there's no point in embedding the issue prematurely, and that was the

5 witness referred to his statement with reference to who accompanied him

6 on the second trip. And I note that the way the statement is formatted

7 places the third trip not -- above the description of the third trip on

8 the page and so there may have been a confusion between the second and

9 third trip.

10 MR. KEHOE: No. While I missed the issue that Your Honour

11 suggested, I did catch the issue that Mr. Tieger presented.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Not guilty, therefore.

13 MR. KEHOE: Not guilty -- I don't think there's -- if you see, I

14 think what Mr. Tieger is talking about is right below the signature on

15 page 4, the computer put third trip down there when third trip should be

16 at the top of the following page.

17 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, and my impression was that the

18 witness was referring to the continuation on page 5, thinking that that

19 was the second trip that he was attempting to respond to.

20 THE WITNESS: I did.


22 Q. So do you want to clarify that then, sir, on the second trip?

23 A. By looking at my statement, yes, I would like to clarify that it

24 seems that Mr. Dawes was not with me at the second trip, that he was only

25 with me at the third trip.

Page 1787

1 Q. Who was with you on the second trip?

2 A. We had two Jordanian APCs, so it will be Jordanian soldiers and

3 myself.

4 Q. Was Mr. DeKlerk with you?

5 A. On the second trip?

6 Q. On the second trip.

7 A. As I can recall, no.

8 Q. So it was you and the two Jordanians?

9 A. As far as I can remember.

10 Q. Okay. So just going back to this second trip, we see the item

11 that's on the screen with a correction pointed out by Judge Orie, and if

12 we can go down to the next line. And again, I've place, and I know it's

13 in a larger area, the items that you refer to as detonation areas on your

14 second trip.

15 And then let us turn to the next slide.

16 Now, sir, this second trip which began about 6.00, again, in a

17 large part of this, if these are military targets, you were again driving

18 through military targets to get to the UN personnel to extract them; is

19 that right?

20 A. By looking at your map and looking at your description of

21 military targets, I would say more than 70 per cent of that trip was not

22 at military targets.

23 Q. So then that would be the northern portion of it?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. But the bottom portion of that where the yellow pins are would be

Page 1788

1 if there was -- you would be driving through an area, if those were

2 military targets?

3 A. At the bottom part in downtown Knin, yes.

4 Q. And the shelling was going on in that area during your second

5 trip, wasn't it?

6 A. The shelling was going on, yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, the red dots on the itinerary is --

8 reflect exactly what? I'm a bit con --

9 MR. KEHOE: On the path -- the little purple pins, Judge?

10 JUDGE ORIE: No. The red dots on the white lines.

11 MR. KEHOE: That's just the path taken as opposed to -- if you

12 look aside, Judge from the actual roads that you see to the left of that

13 and the right of that, it's just attempting to show the path that

14 Mr. Dreyer took while he was moving through that area and it's just an

15 attempt to segregate it from the roads that he didn't use there. Because

16 you see on the left and right-hand portion of that slide that there were

17 roads that he didn't travel that particular trip.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You say that the red dots just highlight the roads

19 he took?

20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, that's all it does, Judge.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.

22 MR. KEHOE: It's an attempt to follow --

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear. Please proceed.

24 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.

25 Q. Now, that trip went from 6.00 to approximately when?

Page 1789

1 A. Well, the -- on my statement it says that the trip started at

2 6.00 and it doesn't give a time of conclusion but it certainly says that

3 my third trip started at 8.30 so I presume just before 8.30.

4 Q. Okay. And when you came back after -- how many people did you

5 get on this second trip?

6 A. I cannot recall.

7 Q. When you went back did you report to anybody?

8 A. When I went back into barracks?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Did I report anything into barracks of who I got from the city of

11 Knin? Is that what you're asking?

12 Q. Or did you discuss with anyone back in UN Sector South

13 headquarters what was going on out there?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And who did you talk to?

16 A. It says in my statement over here that I went to the bunker and I

17 discussed with the sector commander and the Chief of Staff but I'm sure

18 that I -- I also reported to my supervisor, which was the chief of

19 administration.

20 Q. And that would have been General Forand and Colonel Leslie?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. You then took a third trip; is that right?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. And approximately what time of day was that?

25 A. Referring back to my statement, it indicates that I departed at

Page 1790

1 8.30.

2 Q. And do you recall who you went with at that time? And you can

3 refer back to your statement.

4 A. Reading my statement paragraph 14, it indicates that I changed

5 from the Jordanian APCs to Czech APCs and it refers I took Mr. Dawes with

6 me.

7 Q. So that would be Murray Dawes?

8 A. That would be Murray Dawes.

9 Q. And so it was you and two Czech drivers; is that right?

10 A. We could have had an escort in the vehicles with us. I just

11 can't recollect.

12 Q. And you, Mr. Dawes and the Czechs. Anybody else in those APCs?

13 A. Not that I can remember, no.

14 Q. Now, let's take a look at this trip. And by the way, was it

15 during this trip, sir, that you ran into some Krajina Serb soldiers who

16 attempted to take your APC; do you recall that? It's not in your

17 statement, sir.

18 A. No, no, but I remember -- I remember the incident you're

19 referring to, I just don't remember on which trip it was, that's all.

20 Q. Well, tell us about the incident first.

21 A. I can see in my statement it was the fourth trip when I went to

22 Podkonje but if you look on the map it's on the right top-hand corner.

23 We were informed, as far as I can recollect, that there was an UNMO team

24 stuck in Podkonje and we needed to -- and we were asked to see if we can

25 retrieve the UNMO team in Podkonje. We did. We utilised a Czech APC.

Page 1791

1 It was not far. It was on the same route that I normally ran in the

2 morning. And it was just around the corner. We drove into the small

3 little village of Podkonje and I was in the turret area looking out. I

4 believe I had a Canadian soldier with me and a Czech driver, and as we

5 drove into Podkonje, I think I observed them first, there was two guys in

6 the trees, in the bushes with shoulder-mounted anti-personnel weapons

7 with them and AK-47s and various people on both sides of the road hiding

8 in the bush and I thought we were going to be attacked.

9 I told the driver to stop, which we did, it was a very tense 10,

10 15-minute standoff between us and them. We eventually were asked to get

11 out of our APCs, which we did. We were offered coffee. We asked whether

12 we could retrieve the team in Podkonje and we were told no. And we

13 returned back to Sector South headquarters.

14 Q. Okay. Who was the Canadian soldier that was with you, do you

15 recall?

16 A. I do not.

17 Q. And that was on your fourth trip?

18 A. Via my statement, it was my fourth trip.

19 Q. Let's go back to your third trip that we have on the screen here

20 and again, I have attempted to map the area that you went through.

21 A. Excuse me, which trip is this?

22 Q. The third.

23 A. The third.

24 Q. This is the trip that you said began at 8.00, correct, with

25 Mr. Dawes?

Page 1792

1 A. No. I said 8.30.

2 Q. 8.30, apologise. With Mr. Dawes and the Czechs?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And let's go through the first slide. If we can go to the next

5 slide. I have attempted, I recognise those areas are larger on your

6 chart and if we can go to get the following slides --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, did you fill in the part of the itinerary

8 which does not appear on the original maps and that you have chosen your

9 own solution for where the witness went?

10 MR. KEHOE: I do believe, Judge, that from the statement, we went

11 through and on this particular chart, came -- he came back and back

12 around in the other direction. So I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: You thought it must have been the road you indicated

14 here?

15 MR. KEHOE: I did.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.

17 MR. KEHOE: Because of the logical area of what he said during

18 the course of the statement.


20 MR. KEHOE: And I will ask him that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Logic -- yes, we'll ask the witness whether -- could

22 you have, perhaps, a look at -- yes, especially the left part, whether

23 that is the route -- the road you took because it does not appear on the

24 original maps, I think, at least on D75, we can't -- no, it's --

25 MR. KEHOE: It's --

Page 1793


2 MR. KEHOE: And 75, Judge.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not complete. It's an area which is

4 beyond the map and Mr. Kehoe has logically filled in that part of your

5 itinerary. Has he done that correctly?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, he did, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


9 Q. Just taking a look at this slide, again, absent the left side of

10 this slide and the top side, when you were again travelling through the

11 centre of town up past the southern barracks and the Tvik factory, if

12 these are the military targets, you were driving right through an area

13 that was covered by military targets; isn't that right?

14 A. If they were military targets, and by looking at it seems like

15 about 70 per cent of the trip was not close to military targets, but if

16 they were, yes, the first part, yes.

17 Q. Now, the fourth trip that day, and referring back to your

18 statement, what time was that?

19 A. 12.30.

20 Q. And tell us about that, sir. How did you go, who was with you?

21 A. By reading my statement on the fourth trip, it doesn't indicate

22 who was with me but I -- it would be my deduction that it was with the

23 Czech APCs. Whether anybody specifically was with me, I can't recall.

24 And what happened is by reading this, I went to Podkonje and then from

25 Podkonje, we couldn't rescue the UNMO team and then we proceeded back

Page 1794

1 into Knin.

2 Q. So taking this particular chart and moving it on the fourth, and

3 this is 12.30, how long did this take?

4 A. It says -- at the bottom of my statement it says, "We returned

5 from this trip at approximately 1500 hours."

6 Q. Okay. Now, just taking us through this particular -- the fourth

7 trip and going to the next slide. Again, I have placed your particular

8 areas with the idea that your areas encircled are larger.

9 If we can go to the next slide.

10 A. If I might make an observation. On this trip, the trip to

11 Podkonje is not included.

12 Q. Okay. And this particular area, I was just going through the

13 areas of military targets.

14 A. Oh.

15 Q. Okay. And I apologise for that because I will talk about the

16 Podkonje trip in one moment.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. Now, the area -- the area that you're going through absent the

19 trip to Podkonje, and we will go back to P76 in a moment which shows that

20 trip to Podkonje, again, if you were in this particular area that you

21 travelled, when you were travelling downtown in these various buildings,

22 you were driving -- if they are military targets, you were driving

23 through an area of military targets that were again being shelled; isn't

24 that right?

25 A. If they were military targets, yes.

Page 1795

1 Q. Now, also in this fourth trip you took this trip to Podkonje;

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, sir, when you were going through there, did you observe any

5 ARSK, army of the Republic of Serb Krajina, any military at all during

6 this time?

7 A. During the whole day?

8 Q. Well, during this particular trip or during the whole day. Let's

9 start from the whole day and then go in this particular trip.

10 A. I indicated in my statement that I did see a mortar platoon. I

11 saw an APC, I saw a turned over militia vehicle but apart from that heavy

12 presence of RSK, no.

13 Q. Did you see RSK trucks moving around?

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. Did you not see with Mr. Dawes four RSK trucks coming back down

16 from the direction of Strmica road?

17 A. I can't recall. I didn't mention in my statement so I can't

18 recall.

19 Q. Do you see any truck movements whatsoever of RSK trucks moving

20 around?

21 A. I can refer back to my statement of what I wrote at the time.

22 It's 14 years ago, so it is -- if I did see military vehicles it would

23 have been more the odd military vehicle than the presence of military

24 vehicles. So there was no large presence of military in Knin that I

25 observed.

Page 1796

1 MR. KEHOE: Let me go back to the -- if I might have a moment,

2 Your Honour. If I can go back to 1D10-0084, if I can bring that up on

3 the screen.

4 This is a video from Associated Press TV taken on the 4th of

5 August from the headquarters -- the UN headquarters in Knin.

6 [Videotape played]


8 Q. Now, does that -- were you in those APCs or looking outside the

9 turret in either one of those, do you know?

10 A. It could have been me, yeah. It doesn't look clear but it could

11 very well have been.

12 Q. The one on the left with the white shirt on, I know it's

13 difficult to see?

14 A. I don't know.

15 [Videotape played]


17 Q. You observed -- stop. You observed trucks like that moving

18 through Knin on the 4th?

19 A. That was behind me. I didn't see it. Well, did I see trucks

20 like that specifically? There could have been the odd one but not the --

21 like I said, there wasn't the presence of trucks all over Knin. There

22 might have been the odd one, but yeah.

23 Q. Did you see -- well, I take it back. That's fine.

24 During the course of the time that you were there, did you run

25 into soldiers from this brigade called the ear-ring brigade?

Page 1797

1 A. The what de.

2 Q. The ear-ring, ear-ring brigade.

3 A. I did not.

4 Q. Did you observe soldiers when you were with Mr. Dawes, soldiers

5 coming back from Strmica back into Knin, ARSK soldiers?

6 A. Can't recall. If I didn't mention it in my statement, then I

7 don't believe I saw it.

8 Q. Now, the shelling that you were talking about, there was shelling

9 going on not only by the HV but there was shelling also taking place by

10 the RSK soldiers too, wasn't there?

11 A. No, there was not.

12 MR. KEHOE: Well, if I can just go to the --

13 If I can number this first, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes D104 marked for

16 identification.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any objections?

18 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, that's the previous video shown?

19 MR. KEHOE: No, this one.

20 MR. TIEGER: This one. Okay. I didn't have it on the screen.

21 I'm sorry. No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then D104 is admitted into evidence.


24 Q. You of course know General Forand; do you not?

25 A. I do.

Page 1798

1 Q. And you said that when you were coming back to the headquarters,

2 you were coming back to the Sector South headquarters, you were talking

3 to General Forand and to Chief of Staff Leslie; right?

4 A. Whether I spoke to General Forand directly, I can't recall, but

5 Chief of Staff Colonel Leslie, certainly.

6 Q. Let me show you the next -- it's actually a continuation of this

7 video by -- also by AP TV.

8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, could we just stop for a moment?

9 Just a housekeeping matter.


11 MR. TIEGER: My -- and I don't think it's important in this

12 particular instance, but I registered no objection to what I thought was

13 the entirety of the exhibit that was being submitted.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It was the -- I at least understood that to be the

15 beginning where we see two people on an --

16 MR. KEHOE: I will split this up into two separate exhibits.

17 That's fine.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. KEHOE: If we can take this from the beginning again.

21 Q. You recognise General Forand, do you not? Mr. Dreyer?

22 A. I do, actually.

23 Q. Okay.

24 [Videotape played]

25 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In the area of responsibility

Page 1799

1 there is a lot of shelling from the Dinara mountains and responding Serb

2 artillery fire in the Dinara mountain. I think we have lost a crossing

3 point which was called Pakovo Selo."

4 Q. Now, he talks about shelling, Serb shelling going into the Dinara

5 mountain. Were you aware of that on the 4th?

6 A. He said from the Dinara mountains. I was --

7 Q. Let's go back and play it again. We'll go back and play it

8 again.

9 [Videotape played]

10 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "As you go south in the Kenyan area

11 of responsibility, there is a lot of shelling from the Dinara mountains

12 and responding Serb artillery fire ..."


14 Q. He's talking about Serb artillery in the Dinara mountain?

15 A. In the Kenyan controlled area, the Kenyan controlled area was not

16 downtown Knin.

17 Q. Okay. Now, but it was in fact Serb artillery firing, wasn't

18 there?

19 A. I told you, not that I observed.

20 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but that does seem to raise

21 a point the Court raised earlier, and that was whether or not the

22 question implies something that is not in fact embedded in the document

23 or previous evidence and this is a question about Serb artillery fire.

24 The witness had made a distinction about Serb fire in the area of -- in

25 the Kenyan area of responsibility.

Page 1800

1 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact, Mr. Kehoe, it's always

2 good if it's not the witness who has to point at imprecision --

3 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- rather than counsel to be so precise, there is no

5 need for a witness ever to point at overlooking something in the

6 question.

7 MR. KEHOE: And Your Honour, and I will submit to you that there

8 is evidence of Serb artillery in and around the area, not just this.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that, but you show this to the

10 witness.

11 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And you have not laid a foundation as to what extent

13 the witness personally observed and then you ask questions in relation to

14 what was shown to him which is a -- a technique which requires extreme

15 caution.

16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And especially under those circumstances you are

18 invited to take care that it's not the witness who should correct

19 imprecision.

20 MR. KEHOE: And, Your Honour, if I may, if I may, there is also

21 follow-up questions to this about the level of discussion within the UN

22 compound about Serb artillery. It's not firing of Serb artillery.

23 JUDGE ORIE: What will come, we'll see.

24 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But here it's quite clear you put a question in

Page 1801

1 which you left out a detail of what we saw on the video and the witness

2 said, well, this is what it said.

3 MR. KEHOE: And my submission, Your Honour, is that I was not

4 completed with follow-up questions from there.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


7 Q. Now, you say this was not in the area. Did you have discussions

8 in the headquarters about the Serbs firing back with their artillery at

9 the Croatian army?

10 A. I might have. But did I see artillery fire being fired on my

11 trips - I believe that's what I'm testifying, from my trips - did I see

12 artillery fire, I did not.

13 Q. Did you understand my question, sir?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Okay. My question to you is: Did you -- excuse me. Did you

16 have discussions in headquarters about the Serbs firing back with their

17 artillery at the Croatian army?

18 A. From which specific area?

19 Q. Any area.

20 A. I might have. I can't recall. I might have sat in the meeting

21 where it was discussed, but I didn't observe it. That's my entity. I

22 didn't see it downtown Knin as I was travelling.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The question was not whether you observed it. The

24 question was whether you were aware of any discussions about it and you

25 have given your answer by now, that is, that it may well be but that you

Page 1802

1 do not recall.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


5 Q. Now, during this trip to Podkonje that you took on the fourth

6 trip and if I can refer to your P76.

7 Now, looking at --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue with that, Mr. Kehoe.

9 Mr. Tieger, you provided us with a fourth trip assistance map,

10 isn't it?

11 MR. TIEGER: Correct, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that is supposed to reflect what we find in

13 this fourth map as it is now on our screen, isn't it?

14 MR. TIEGER: It certainly should.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Same comments as far as the Defence is

16 concerned. If you look at the lower portion, you see that there is a

17 kind of a - how do you call that - if you move just across the railway

18 bridge, yes, then you move a little bit further to the left and you will

19 see that there's a shape like a drop up in red, you see that?

20 MR. TIEGER: I do, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I don't see that on mine.

22 MR. TIEGER: The Court's comments are -- first of all, I

23 understand the point. You're completely right. We will not only modify

24 this, but we'll conduct a review of each one of those demonstrative

25 documents and not resubmit them until they are thoroughly scrutinised.

Page 1803

1 JUDGE ORIE: In terms of guilty please, it's one thing --

2 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I'll plead guilty for him, too, just in one

3 fell swoop, I'll take his as well.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, of course, if within half an hour we

5 see these kind of differences, that really means that someone has done

6 some sloppy work and --

7 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge --

8 JUDGE ORIE: I will not spend any more time to it. I add just

9 one more thing, Mr. Kehoe, I am still surprised -- I'm still puzzled by

10 the red dots on the itinerary, because if I would have to highlight an

11 itinerary with red dots, I would put them at an equal distance

12 approximately and not ten in one centimetre and then three in the next

13 five centimetres. So therefore it still puzzles me whether your

14 explanation can convince me, but I still do not know what else it could

15 be, so at this moment we leave it as it is, but let's try to be very

16 careful not to start redacting what witnesses have given us.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. I will get a more cogent

19 explanation. That was my understanding. And certainly --

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you get a another, a better explanation, because

21 earlier, you referred to logic. I miss the logic in it. Let's not spend

22 any more time on it.

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

Page 1804

1 Q. Now, this trip shows your trip up to Podkonje, it that right?

2 A. Yes, it does.

3 Q. And in this particular trip, and if we go up and we could put on

4 the screen D5, this is a situation report, an UNMO situation report from

5 August the 4th at 1600. I believe it's -- excuse me a second. Excuse

6 me.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. KEHOE: If we can just scroll down just a bit.

9 Q. If we can look at paragraph 6, this reflects the situation in

10 Podkonje with the RSK soldiers holding UN personnel hostage; is that

11 right?

12 A. Excuse me, did you ask me?

13 Q. Just take a look at 6. I'll just have you take a look. It's

14 easier if you just read it.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. If I may, you went to Podkonje on the fourth trip and RSK

17 soldiers were holding UN personnel hostage, were they not?

18 A. I don't know if they were RSK soldiers. They were armed men,

19 yes.

20 Q. They were armed men. You did say in your statement, as I recall,

21 and I refer to paragraph 15 of P72, "At approximately 1230, we embarked

22 on our fourth trip when we initially went to Podkonje to try and rescue

23 UNMO Team Podkonje who were essentially being held hostage by the Serb

24 soldiers in the town."

25 You did say that, didn't you?

Page 1805

1 A. I did.

2 Q. And the individuals that you described as Serb soldiers were

3 dressed in civilian clothing, according to your testimony that you gave

4 this morning?

5 A. Looking at my statement, I would believe so, yes.

6 Q. Okay. But you concluded at the time when you saw these armed men

7 that they were, in fact, soldiers, didn't you?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Now, let's turn back to the slides and talk a little bit about

10 the fifth trip.

11 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, do I have to bring that back, it's

12 1D15-0021 to 1D15-0042. And we're going to the fifth trip.

13 Can you go on to the next one? That's the fourth trip. Can we

14 go to the next one. Now, again, if we can just blow that up just a bit.

15 Q. If we can, Mr. Dreyer, taking a look at this and you'll see the

16 particular route, I believe, is consistent with the route that you took

17 on your fifth trip, and you can check back with your documents if it is

18 not accurate.

19 A. The only part of the trip that's not accurate is the road leading

20 through downtown Knin. I can see on my map as well, it seems like they

21 separated it but the whole idea is I went down one street and came back

22 through the same street through downtown Knin.

23 Q. So the lower aspect of that is incorrect?

24 A. Yeah. I just went through downtown Knin out to the area.

25 Q. Okay. We'll correct that. If we just note that you followed the

Page 1806

1 main street up, turned around and came back on the same street.

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Okay. And we'll correct that.

4 Let's turn to the next slide. And by the way, I don't think I

5 asked you, on this fifth trip, tell me, again, the fifth trip, who did

6 you go with and what time did you go?

7 A. Referring back to my statement, it indicates that I left after

8 1500 hours with one Czech APC. It seems that it was me and a Czech

9 driver or maybe an escort.

10 Q. And do you remember who was in the escort?

11 A. Can't remember.

12 Q. Did Mr. Dawes go with you on this trip?

13 A. I cannot recall.

14 Q. So as far as you recall, it was just you and a Czech driver and

15 the APC and what type of escort would you have?

16 A. They would most likely have been soldiers, if I can recollect,

17 soldiers within the vehicle to protect us.

18 Q. And do you have any idea who those soldiers were?

19 A. I do not.

20 Q. Okay. And let's just take us through again looking at the fifth

21 trip and using the smaller areas that you had previously marked, knowing

22 full well that your were larger.

23 Let us turn to the next slide from there. And again, putting --

24 if these are military targets where the pins are there, as you are

25 driving downtown on this trip, both back and forth, if these are military

Page 1807

1 targets, you were driving through an area that has -- that is being

2 shelled.

3 A. If they were military targets, yes.

4 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time if I could offer into

5 evidence this particular item, this particular slide show that we have

6 and I will make the appropriate corrections consistent with what Your

7 Honour has pointed out and likewise what Mr. Dreyer has pointed out with

8 regard to trip 5.

9 JUDGE ORIE: He yes. And perhaps you could provide for our

10 verification a hard copy of this fifth trip as corrected and also a hard

11 copy of the other --

12 MR. KEHOE: I think that --

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- slide that should be corrected so that we have a

14 quick reference to your corrections.

15 Mr. Tieger, any objection?

16 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the slide show would be ...

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D105.

19 JUDGE ORIE: D105 is admitted into evidence subject to the

20 corrections to be made.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Dreyer, any other trips that day other than the five trips

24 that we talked about?

25 A. Not that I can recall.

Page 1808

1 Q. And would you agree with me that as you were travelling through

2 many of these areas downtown, you were being -- driving through areas

3 that were being shelled consistently?

4 A. I wouldn't say consistently but they were other -- I observed

5 shelling, I observed impacts or I observed damage caused by impacts, yes.

6 Q. And you were driving through them?

7 A. Sure.

8 Q. Now, during your entire -- by the way, you went there to pick up

9 UN personnel; is that right?

10 A. It became a bit more complex than that. It became from UN

11 personnel, international staff, to national staff, to national staff's

12 parents. It became a bit of a -- it diverted from what it was intended

13 to initially.

14 Q. Was any UN personnel or any of these people killed during any of

15 these extractions?

16 A. No.

17 Q. During any of these trips that you made, did Colonel Leslie -- do

18 you recall Colonel Leslie accompanying you?

19 A. I do not, actually.

20 Q. Now, let's talk a little bit about the situation after the 5th.

21 Now, you maintain in your paragraph, and I believe this is paragraph 8,

22 you maintain that all RSK military elements had withdrawn as of the 5th

23 of August. Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Okay. How much shelling was actually done by the RSK during the

Page 1809

1 5th into Knin?

2 A. By the RSK into Knin?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Excuse me, can you -- are you asking how much shelling was done

5 by the RSK into Knin on the 1st?

6 Q. On the 5th, on the 5th of August, any time during the day on the

7 5th of August, are you aware that the army of the Republic of Serb

8 Krajina was shelling Knin?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Let us turn our attention to Defence Exhibit 89. If we can turn

11 to one, two, three, four pages in. The third paragraph down, at 1500

12 hours. That's it.

13 If we can read that, Mr. Dreyer, "At about 051500 hours," and I

14 can tell you that this is a sitrep for the 5th, "ARSK soldiers of unknown

15 strength were seen occupying defensive positions in general area of

16 Strmica XJ 00 91. Tanks and mortars were seen in the same positions. At

17 051815, they fired 12 rounds of artillery from Strmica towards Knin."

18 Were you aware of that, sir?

19 A. I was not.

20 Q. Did you have any discussions in your headquarters with either

21 General Forand or Colonel Leslie or others about the ARSK fighting back?

22 A. Fighting back?

23 Q. Fighting. Returning fire or fighting back against the Croatian

24 army.

25 A. I'm sure I did.

Page 1810

1 Q. Okay. And did they tell you that they had information that the

2 ARSK were in fact putting up a fight?

3 A. Yeah, I believe they did.

4 Q. As a matter of fact, the -- did you have information about -- do

5 you know who General Mrksic is, the commander in chief of the army of the

6 Republic of Serb Krajina?

7 A. No, I do not.

8 Q. Let us turn, if we can, to 65 ter 47426. This is a transcript of

9 an interview with General Mrksic delivered to Radio Belgrade at 2100

10 hours on the 4th. It notes that -- if I could just read it down you can

11 read it with me, radio Belgrade journalist. "The aggression which

12 commenced at 0500," this is General Mrksic speaking, "the aggression

13 which commenced at 0500 lasted until the nightfall. At the present, all

14 combat activities in the area had Knin have ceased. Knin is enveloped by

15 the dark, evacuation of the population is ongoing. Enemy forces reached

16 at four to six kilometres from the city."

17 Question: "Does that mean our lines have been penetrated?"

18 Answer: "No, we are maintaining contact, our forces withdrew to

19 the positions for the direct defence of Knin. The other range units are

20 still successfully holding their positions."

21 We can move down to the next paragraph, approximately one, two,

22 three, four, five -- seven lines from the bottom beginning "if."

23 "If the army of the Republika Srpska succeeds in putting pressure

24 on the forces attacking in direction Grahovo-Knin, we shall then

25 stabilize the defence and switch on to counterattack."

Page 1811

1 Now, Mr. Dreyer, was that consistent with the information that

2 you and the other UN personnel at Sector South headquarters had

3 concerning the fight that the army of the Serb Krajina was putting up

4 against the Croatian army?

5 A. That was not my concern at the time.

6 Q. Was that consistent with what you heard and what you were talking

7 about in Sector South headquarters?

8 A. No, it's not.

9 Q. It's not. Did you not just tell us that you understood that the

10 army of the Serb Krajina was putting up a fight against the Croatian

11 army? Did you not tell us that?

12 A. I did. But not in this detail. This is the first time I've seen

13 this.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we will offer this

16 document into evidence. It is 65 ter 426.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D106.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

22 Please proceed.


24 Q. Yes. Now, Mr. Dawes [sic], turning -- staying with the 5th, it

25 is a fact that there were troops returning from the front lines through

Page 1812

1 Knin, wasn't there?

2 A. I'm just reading your question again just to make sure that I

3 understand what you're saying. You're saying that on the 5th is it a

4 fact that the troops were coming from the front lines through Knin?

5 Q. Yes, sir.

6 A. That's not true as far as I can recollect. I was busy within the

7 headquarters. Whether troops were moving in and out on the 5th, I was

8 not allowed to leave the compound, so I cannot answer your question.

9 Q. So from the compound, did you observe ARSK mechanised units and

10 trucks moving down the road up through Knin?

11 A. I did not.

12 Q. Now, sir, let me turn our attention to one other item. You know,

13 you said from the discussion on direct examination that you went out

14 briefly on the 9th -- excuse me, on the 6th and then you went out a bit

15 more extensively on the 9th; is that right?

16 A. As far as I can recollect, yes.

17 Q. And sir, this is the best of your recollection, I understand this

18 is a long time ago. Honestly. So during the period of time that you

19 were there, and when did you leave the Sector South?

20 A. When did I physically leave Sector South?

21 Q. Yes, sir. Approximately. You don't have --

22 A. I think December.

23 Q. December 1995?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. During that time, sir, did you in fact do an analysis of the

Page 1813

1 shelling of Knin by going around the entire area to see what was in fact

2 damaged?

3 A. I did not.

4 MR. KEHOE: Let's me bring up a document for you, Prosecution

5 Exhibit 64, if we can put that on the screen.

6 Q. Did you know and individual by Lieutenant-Colonel Steinar

7 Hjertnes as a UN military observer?

8 A. I did not.

9 Q. If we can go to paragraph 1 and 2, if you could take a quick look

10 at that, it notes that "UN Team Podkonje has made a provisional

11 assessment of the damages caused by the HV operation 04-06 August 1995 in

12 the town of Knin. The report is based on a rundown of 70 per cent of

13 Knin town and gives only a brief overview of the situation.

14 "In general, shelling was concentrated against military

15 objectives. The damages caused by shelling to civilian establishments is

16 concentrated to the close vicinity of military objectives. Only few

17 (3-5) impacts is observed in other urban areas."

18 Were you familiar, sir, with this assessment done by the UNMOs?

19 A. No, I was not.

20 Q. Were you familiar with the final assessment done approximately a

21 week later that was consistent with this assessment?

22 A. I've never seen this assessment before.

23 MR. KEHOE: Let me turn our attention to the area that -- one

24 area with some video that you talked about certainly on your first trip.

25 If we can go back to this map and what we're talking about is, if I may,

Page 1814

1 I believe it's P73. If we could bring P73 back up.

2 Q. Now, in P73 that notes you going up through the centre of town.

3 Do you see that, sir?

4 A. I can see that, yes.

5 Q. And I'd like to show you two videos: One coming from the north

6 going down that street and one going back the other way.

7 MR. KEHOE: And if I may, you can play -- until you get

8 oriented -- if we can put up first the 1D15-0096 -- excuse me, 1D15-0066,

9 I apologise. I apologise. 0066. Can we go back.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. I will tell you, sir, this is coming from Croatian TV on the 7th

13 of August. Stop right there.

14 Now, you recognise this, sir, going down the road into Knin;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. You don't. Well, do you -- can we back this up just a bit.

18 A. If you could indicate on the map where it is.

19 Q. Sir, I will indicate on the map for you. You indicate as we move

20 down this road, we're making the turn, do you see the Tvik Factory? I

21 apologise, I misspoke about Croatian TV, it's WTN. I apologise about

22 that. You see where the Tvik Factory is across from the H.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the turn coming down that road, sir, okay?

25 A. Coming down that road leading towards Knin.

Page 1815

1 Q. Correct.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's unclear to me. Could someone use the cursor

3 and move it.

4 MR. KEHOE: I can do it, sir, I can do it, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You can do it, okay. Well, usually it's the usher

6 who assists you and I thought you could do it from your desk but if you

7 would give guidance to the usher --

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- how to move the cursor so that we start at the

10 crossroads where apparently we see this little thing on the road.

11 MR. KEHOE: Judge, it's coming into view just above the -- you

12 see the red turn around there, just go up from there -- no, no, no, all

13 the way up to the top.

14 JUDGE ORIE: All the way up to the top.

15 MR. KEHOE: All the way up to the top. Go up a little further.

16 Up a little further. On that road, just on that road.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah.

18 MR. KEHOE: My understanding is, Judge, it's turning in on that

19 road coming -- it's coming left down this road, the centre road of town.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I see a straight road coming from the top of the map

21 and then I see that there's a fork more or less where it's -- there we

22 turn to the left?

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes. My understanding, Judge, is that this is coming

24 from just north of the Tvik Factory and coming straight down the road,

25 yes, coming straight down that road.

Page 1816

1 JUDGE ORIE: That road is bending a bit.

2 MR. KEHOE: Bending a bit, but that's -- and it goes into if we

3 follow it all the way down the street, keep going down, Mr. Usher, going

4 down.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We just follow that street up to where we come to

6 the railway bridge at the bottom where it crosses the --

7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, I think that's --

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's your understanding.

9 MR. KEHOE: That's my understanding.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's look at that again.

11 MR. KEHOE: If I may have one moment.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. KEHOE: If we can play this again, sir.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. KEHOE: If we can stop there.

16 Q. Do you recognise that fuel station, that petrol station there,

17 sir?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. You do not. We can continue on?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, one question, I think we just started at

21 what I described at a fork, that is one street, not a crossroads, whereas

22 what I saw on the screen was as a matter of fact a car turning to the

23 left, had a choice to go to the left, to the right, or straight on.

24 MR. KEHOE: My answer to this, Judge, is that this is WTN TV and

25 the matter was turned on and off. This particular area of the road is

Page 1817

1 the one readily identifiable as --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kehoe, I asked you where it started. Isn't

3 it?

4 MR. KEHOE: I do believe it starts just north of the Tvik

5 factory.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you pointed -- that's the reason why I

7 asked for the cursor to be there. You pointed at a place which was what

8 I described as a fork and could be somewhere else. I do now understand

9 that further on you consider this to be the road downtown.

10 MR. KEHOE: There is a road, Judge, if you look just up from

11 the --


13 MR. KEHOE: -- there is a road by the grid mark that comes up and

14 that's the left, they come down on that road.

15 JUDGE ORIE: They come down there.

16 MR. KEHOE: You see that road just right above the grid mark

17 there, they come down that road and then make a left down the street.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that, but I asked you what I see on this

19 map is that is what I described as a fork, that is that you have to

20 choose left or right from where we came, whereas what I saw on the screen

21 was ...

22 MR. KEHOE: I think if you go back up there, Judge, you can see

23 that the road can continue on on top of that wooded area there and

24 then -- this is of course a rural area, or you can make the left down

25 that road.

Page 1818

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the screen where the car turns to the left.

2 MR. KEHOE: Right.

3 JUDGE ORIE: There is an option to go straight ahead as well.

4 MR. KEHOE: And I do believe it's there. You see it, it's not a

5 straight line, it looks like a little bump that you can go straight up.

6 You see the --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not spend more time on it. Please proceed.


9 Q. Now, sir, you do remember this area?

10 A. I do not.

11 Q. You do not.

12 A. I can't recognise on the screen.

13 MR. KEHOE: Continue on.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. KEHOE: Stop right there.

16 Q. Do you recognise these buildings, sir?

17 A. I do not.

18 Q. Can you place yourself on this street at all?

19 A. Look, for me it looks like any village within the area. I don't

20 know whether this is a specific street. If you say it's a specific

21 street then I believe you.

22 Q. Well, sir, I'm trying to get the idea of this is the street where

23 you state that the shelling started when -- on the morning of the 4th of

24 August of 1995, and I'm just getting and idea if this is the -- if you

25 recall this and when you mark in your chart about buildings being hit and

Page 1819

1 artillery coming in, I just want to get an idea if these are in fact the

2 places where you saw this artillery being hit. Is this or isn't it?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Your purpose is perfectly clear, Mr. Kehoe, and the

4 witness said, "I do not recognise the street." So let's go on and see

5 whether there comes a point where he does recognise it.

6 MR. KEHOE: We'll just continue on, that's fine.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Instead of -- it's perfectly clear what you are

8 aiming at. Please proceed.

9 MR. KEHOE: Continue on.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. Do you recognise this turn into town, sir? Did you recognise

13 that, sir?

14 A. It again looks very familiar, but I cannot say that it's

15 strikingly recognizable, no.

16 MR. KEHOE: Let's go to the next video, then. Maybe it will be

17 clearer. Now, this video --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, the last portion, could you perhaps again

19 with the help of the cursor at least indicate to the Chamber where you

20 think that --

21 MR. KEHOE: If the might have the assistance of the usher again.


23 MR. KEHOE: If you take -- can you take the first -- okay. If we

24 can go down that street and then it makes a -- it looks like a dead end

25 and just comes left, he comes left -- or actually it just bends around

Page 1820

1 and goes down the main road. And this, if you keep going on, that's the

2 main road going through and as you're looking over to the left is the

3 train station --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me, that's perfectly clear. I just wanted to

5 know the last turn seems to be a 90 degrees turn to the left. You can

6 choose to go to the right or to the left but there's no straight ahead.

7 Where exactly is that?

8 MR. KEHOE: Where the cursor is right now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Where the cursor is right now. The cursor is now

10 over the railway bridge as far as I can see, isn't it?

11 MR. KEHOE: Yes. And you make that bend around that way on to

12 the main street.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to understand. Are you saying that

14 coming from or -- I'm always a bit confused by this map -- this road

15 which goes from south-east to north-west into the town, that there is a

16 90-degree turn just before you go to the railway bridge? Is that how I

17 have to understand it?

18 MR. KEHOE: It comes as -- you see from the screen here, Judge,

19 it almost comes to a dead end that you see there with the buildings.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you turn to the left because you can't go

21 straight on. Then from what I understand, then, some 50 or 100 metres

22 further to the left you come to the railway bridge. Okay. Thank you.

23 MR. KEHOE: If we can just have a number for this, Your Honour,

24 and move this into evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objections, Mr. Tieger?

Page 1821

1 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D107.

4 JUDGE ORIE: D107 is admitted into evidence.

5 MR. KEHOE: Now, if I can take you to the next video. Again, it

6 is from also WTV and -- WTN, excuse me, and that is a number of

7 1D15-0067. Again it's a WTN video from 7 August 1995 and it's coming

8 from the opposite direction.

9 Now, one reference point here is looking back down at the town

10 and the other reference is going back up the road we just came from.

11 [Videotape played]


13 Q. Do you recognise that street, Mr. Dreyer?

14 A. I do not.

15 Q. The street that we're talking about is a wooded street with

16 vehicles coming in both directions.

17 Do you recognise this area generally at the crossroads in town?

18 A. In all honesty, I do not, no.

19 MR. KEHOE: Please continue.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. KEHOE: Stop right there.

22 Q. Do you recognise that area, Mr. Dreyer, and that building?

23 A. I do not.

24 MR. KEHOE: Continue on.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 1822

1 MR. KEHOE: Stop right there.

2 Q. Now, do you recognise the barracks on the left-hand side of this

3 photograph?

4 A. It's very difficult to find my position on -- by watching the

5 video. I'm trying my best to figure out where I am over here. It's just

6 difficult, Your Honour, to find myself on the video here, but it looks to

7 me like any other city but this certainly looks like a -- or looks to me

8 like it might be a road in the area, yes, but I don't know if it's

9 certainly a road.

10 MR. KEHOE: Okay. Just continue on.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. KEHOE: Stop right there.

13 Q. How about those buildings, sir? Do you recognise those

14 buildings?

15 A. I do not.

16 MR. KEHOE: Continue on.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. KEHOE: Stop.

19 Q. How about those buildings near the fuel station, do you recognise

20 those?

21 A. What I can recognise from this is this is the opposite direction

22 as the previous video you showed me.

23 Q. Right.

24 A. Whether this is this street in Knin, I can't tell you.

25 Q. Now in this particular street, were you -- do you recall the

Page 1823

1 petrol station on that street in Knin?

2 A. I do not.

3 Q. And do you recall these buildings behind you as buildings that

4 you took UN personnel from on the morning or afternoon of the 4th of

5 August?

6 A. I cannot recall. It might very well have been.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we will offer this

9 particular video into evidence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D108.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. D108 is admitted into evidence.

15 Mr. Kehoe, time for a break.

16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will resume at 1.00 but could I just

18 try to find out how much time you would still need.

19 MR. KEHOE: Three or four hours left, Judge -- no, I'm only

20 kidding. I have 15, 20 minutes, at the most.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So you've got 5 minutes left.

22 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Kidding as well.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

Page 1824

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, 17 and a half minutes for you.

2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

3 Your Honour, I do have to correct a matter that came up with

4 regard to the maps and I can show a little bit more accurately the

5 videos. If we can go to D107 and it's -- I'll show you -- excuse me

6 D105, I'm sorry, D105. If we can flip about ten pages in. Can you just

7 go to the third -- beginning of the third trip. It should be AD/4.

8 That's it.

9 Your Honour, I was under the mistaken impression that the turn on

10 that bus was much lower down than it actually is. If Your Honour -- if

11 we can go -- look at the top quadrant of the path that Mr. Dreyer took to

12 the left towards Kninsko Polje, and if we go to the intersection there,

13 the bus was actually coming down from the road on the right and made a

14 left down that road, the camera went off, and then it was turned back on

15 after that turn once it got into the Knin town.

16 I have been advised by my staff that that's how that video went.

17 I was under the mistaken impression --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, it's totally unclear. Could you tell us

19 first of all where the bus takes the left turn.

20 MR. KEHOE: It's up -- if we could now put the cursor up to the

21 right.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, further up to the right, yes.

23 MR. KEHOE: Right, right, right, right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Further to the right, yes.

25 MR. KEHOE: Right there. Makes a left-hand turn down that

Page 1825

1 street. It's coming from the right and makes -- goes to that corner and

2 makes a left.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, so that's a totally different --

4 MR. KEHOE: Totally different, Judge, I was mistaken.


6 MR. KEHOE: And then the video cuts off and then retakes it as we

7 come back down into Knin town.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That also means that we see fragments of that road

9 not -- we have not a complete picture of.

10 MR. KEHOE: We don't have a complete picture. The TV camera shut

11 off until we come to the road back into Knin and we go down the road and

12 then make the turn.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay, thank you.

14 MR. KEHOE: Just by way of clarity, I apologise for that, I just

15 wanted to make that perfectly clear.

16 Q. Mr. Dreyer, just one last question, we talked a bit about the

17 shelling on October 5th, 1995 outside of the camp that you discussed in

18 paragraph 19 of your statement which is P72.

19 And I want to bring up on the screen P69, photographs that have

20 been admitted into evidence by the Prosecution. This would be pages

21 06067511 -- I'm sorry. I've been advised, Your Honour, to go to page 3.

22 If we can take a look at these photographs. First these two, and

23 these are photographs that have been admitted into evidence which note at

24 the top, "Two of the six bodies which sustained fatal wounds."

25 And if we can go to the following page. You see, sir, that the

Page 1826

1 individual that is lying on his back on the top page has a camouflage

2 jacket on?

3 A. I can see that.

4 Q. Okay. Can we just blow up the bottom picture. And you see the

5 camouflage as well as what looks like some type of military holster or a

6 holster on his waist; do you see that?

7 A. I can see the holster but I cannot see the camouflage.

8 Q. I'm sorry. But you can see the holster?

9 A. I can see the holster.

10 Q. Okay, sir. Now, when the -- you noted for us that Canadian

11 soldiers went out to attend to these bodies?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. When they came back, did they tell you that the wagon that they

14 were -- that these individuals were on was filled with weapons?

15 A. They did not.

16 Q. Did you talk at all to Sergeant Engelby, the Canadian Sergeant

17 Engelby?

18 A. I recall Sergeant Engelby. Did I discuss whether there was

19 weapons on the truck, I can't recall.

20 Q. You had no such discussion with Sergeant Engelby?

21 A. I can't recall if I did but I can't recall.

22 Q. Sir, you made a proffer that is set forth in paragraph 19 going

23 on to top of page 60 that the Chamber has asked you questions about, and

24 I will tender to the bar that there are and I have looked during the

25 break at at least two autopsies concerning these individuals that have

Page 1827

1 been identified and I will, from the bar, tender those autopsies and

2 submit to Your Honour that they will not be consistent with what Your

3 Honours heard today concerning the running over of tanks.

4 So we will do that when we pull those together and tender them

5 across the bar.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour, I have no objection to

8 tendering documents across the bar. I'd just like to see the documents.

9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. They are documents that the

10 Prosecution has given us and we will go through them and agree to them.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You are aware of what documents Mr. Kehoe is

12 referring to?

13 MR. TIEGER: Not specifically. That's my only point. I'm sure

14 there's no problem.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And just by way of clarity so there's no mistake, I

16 mean we obviously went through the documents to identify these

17 individuals and then match these individuals to autopsy reports that were

18 done by the medical examiner and of course looked at those in detail and

19 those would be the items that we will tender across the bar and certainly

20 I will discuss them with counsel before I do so.

21 Still, you are developing thoughts which are -- so what we'll

22 receive then are autopsy reports which are supposedly linked to the

23 events this witness described --

24 MR. KEHOE: Correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- that is persons being put in body bags --

Page 1828

1 MR. KEHOE: And being run over by tanks.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not know exactly what is the relation to

3 this one, whether that's the same incident.

4 MR. KEHOE: This is this incident, Judge.


6 MR. KEHOE: This is all the same incident.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I don't know that yet. I've seen this

8 material and I've heard the testimony of the witness and I have no one

9 seen or established that this is the same, I think. Is it? Let me

10 just ...


12 Q. I think that that -- this is the same incident, is it not,

13 Mr. Dreyer?

14 A. This is the first time I've seen these pictures.

15 Q. The incident that --

16 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: There is a mistake on the transcript in page 92,

19 line 11 who speaks, but it might be that I've missed something that it

20 has been the testimony of this witness that the matters you show as

21 pictures now is the same event as he described where he says, "I've never

22 seen these pictures." I don't know exactly on what basis I have to

23 assume that it's the same incident.

24 MR. KEHOE: I frankly don't think that's being disputed by the

25 Prosecution that these photographs are photographs of the incident --

Page 1829

1 they were put in as such as P69 and identified as such that they were put

2 in as the mortar shelling that took place on 5 August 1995 --

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's where the witness said that it was adjusted to

4 come closer and closer.

5 Mr. Tieger, is that the case?

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, in light of the smaller issue regarding

7 the precision of the documents earlier, I want to make sure I'm as

8 precise as possible so I will look this over more carefully. However,

9 Mr. Kehoe is correct, I'm only aware of one such incident. I believe we

10 are talking about the same incident but I --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the Judges do not have an overview

12 over everything that still will come, so therefore, it's the only one or

13 whether there were others is -- we are not aware of that. So if you

14 tender them from the bar table, Mr. Kehoe, then we don't have to urgently

15 deal with the matter --

16 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- and Mr. Tieger takes his time to see whether there

18 is any objection against that material.

19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.


21 MR. KEHOE: One point of clarity, Your Honour, that I have talked

22 to Mr. Tieger about and just for the sake of efficiency, if you will, we

23 did get a D number for a video which is D104 which is the two APCs coming

24 into the headquarters with the truck driving past. How we had

25 presented -- coming in.

Page 1830

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that wasn't clear to me. I see that they go

2 through a gate.

3 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But whether they go in or out is -- please proceed.

5 MR. KEHOE: Yeah. I believe they're coming in. In that same

6 video with that TV station, the next clip is with General Forand. I

7 talked with Mr. Tieger about it and asked if we could just put that in

8 with one D number, which is D104 as opposed to creating another one and I

9 don't think that Mr. Tieger objects in any fashion.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So D104 and -- D -- D104 and D105 are merged then is

11 that --

12 MR. KEHOE: We never got a D number for D105.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It will be one where you indicated that it

14 will be two separate.

15 MR. KEHOE: Right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar then the ...

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, that's correct, so the video

18 with the document ID 1D10-0084 remains Exhibit D104 and includes the

19 entire video.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I do understand there are no objections,

21 Mr. Tieger. Therefore D104 is admitted into evidence in its new

22 identity.

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

Page 1831

1 Mr. Dreyer, thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Who was next --

3 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.

5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dreyer, you will now be cross-examined by

7 Mr. Kuzmanovic, who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dreyer.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Mr. Dreyer, you had stated in your earlier testimony that the

12 security of your personnel was your job number one; correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And it would be rather important under the circumstances to know

15 the situation in and around Knin to be able to adequately prepare

16 security for your people; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. You had earlier stated that you knew that the town in Bosnia,

19 Bosansko Grahovo had fallen but you weren't sure of the date; correct?

20 A. Is that what I stated?

21 Q. Yeah, I believe that's what you said. I can go back --

22 JUDGE ORIE: If there is any issue with that, please quote

23 Mr. Dreyer literally, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I will, Your Honour.

25 On page 20, line 15, the question was: "I understand that, sir,

Page 1832

1 but you are aware that Grahovo fell on the 29th.

2 Answer: "On the specific dates, I can't recall, yes."

3 A. Yeah, that's what I said.

4 Q. So you were aware that Grahovo fell but you're just not exactly

5 when; correct?

6 A. I'm not sure whether Grahovo fell or not. I'm sure I was

7 informed of it, recalling it right now, but all military information, all

8 the operational information was received from the military.

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Okay. Honours, I'd like to ask the usher to

10 open up map 15, and if you would do so as well, Your Honours, the map in

11 the map packet.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is that in evidence, that map?

13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It is not, Your Honour. It is for demonstrative

14 purposes only.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Map 15, perhaps it could be put on the ELMO.

16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, that's what I would ask the usher to do.

17 You can use mine. Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Dreyer, you have the map in front of you; correct?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. And there is a pointer that the usher has given to you?

21 A. Yeah.

22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Mr. Usher, I'd like you to refocus the map so it

23 shows further down. There we go. A little further. That's good. Now

24 I'd like it focused a bit, please. Hopefully it's not my eyes that are

25 unfocused.

Page 1833

1 Is it visible on the ELMO, Your Honours for you?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Not entirely but I've got map 15 next to me so --

3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: We're almost there.


5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: There we go.


7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Okay. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It appears to be clear.


10 Q. Mr. Dreyer, do you see the town of Bosansko Grahovo on the right

11 there just north-west -- or north-east of Knin? There is a small dot.

12 A. Yeah, I can see it.

13 Q. Okay. Could you put the pointer there, please. Okay. Now could

14 you put the pointer at Knin. I'll submit to you and I'd like you to

15 assume that Bosansko Grahovo fell on the 29th of July of 1995, okay, for

16 purposes of this question.

17 You see the -- this is the Prosecution's map, by the way. Do you

18 see the line in between Knin and Bosansko Grahovo, I believe it's

19 reddish-brown?

20 A. I can see it.

21 Q. Could you point to it, please. Were you aware that that line was

22 the front line the day before Operation Storm?

23 A. I was not.

24 Q. Would you take a look at the bottom left of that map, there's a

25 scale. And if we could sharpen the focus a little bit for everyone on

Page 1834

1 the ELMO.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, can I ask you one thing.

3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you're looking at this map and you say it was the

5 confrontation line the day before Operation Storm, do you mean at the

6 start of Operation Storm?

7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, that's clear, because that was on the day

9 of Operation Storm was the 4th of August.

10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


13 Q. Mr. Dreyer, do you see the scale there?

14 A. I can see the scale.

15 Q. Could we focus it a little bit more, please. Thank you. The top

16 scale is in kilometres; correct?

17 A. It is correct.

18 Q. And it's in the first -- it's 0 to 10 on the first top of the

19 portion of the scale; correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. If you could go back to Knin and Bosansko Grahovo again, please,

22 and refocus on that area, please, Mr. Usher. Okay.

23 Now, right above the arrow that's pointing toward Knin, there's a

24 little point that juts out, do you see that point on the reddish-brown

25 line, Mr. Dreyer?

Page 1835

1 A. Are you referring to this area specifically there?

2 Q. Yes, sir.

3 A. Yes, I can see it.

4 Q. Using the scale, it's -- and I'm not going to be exactly precise.

5 I know Your Honour wants precision. But the front line was roughly as

6 the crow flies at that point about 10 kilometres from Knin; was it not?

7 A. It appears so on the map.

8 Q. So at least the day before Operation Storm, the confrontation

9 line for security purposes was 10 miles -- or 10 kilometres from Knin;

10 correct?

11 A. As far as you explained it on the map, yes.

12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: You can put that down. Thank you.

13 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

14 Q. Mr. Dreyer, was this your first awareness of how close the front

15 was to Knin before Operation Storm?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to refer to your statement --

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one thing. I think the witness made a

19 reservation that he said "As far as I can see on the map."


21 JUDGE ORIE: So awareness of being so close, I understand at this

22 moment that to be in terms of the earlier portion of the evidence of the

23 witness that as we did with the military targets that if this was the

24 confrontation line that your awareness of it being so close comes today

25 for the first time.

Page 1836

1 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, you're correct. If I might have a

2 minute to explain. Just on reference to confrontation lines, et cetera,

3 it's been said that I was responsible for the safety and security of the

4 staff, which I was, but on the military information we had no military

5 information at hand or any mechanism of doing so, so I had no idea of the

6 line of confrontation until that morning.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, I'm making this observation because

8 the witness testified several times that he hardly knew anything about

9 the confrontation line but now for the first day looking at this map on

10 the assumption that that's the confrontation line, the witness now

11 becomes aware of the closeness.

12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure. That's fine, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Please proceed.


15 Q. I'd like you to prefer to P72, Mr. Dreyer, your statement of 21

16 and 22 February, 2008. Do you have that in front of you?

17 A. I do not.

18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Counsel, do you have a copy for Mr. Dreyer?

19 THE WITNESS: 1998?

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: 2008.

21 THE WITNESS: 2008, excuse me, it's in front of me excuse me.


23 Q. Now, on the front page of that statement P72, and I would ask

24 that that be please pulled up if it hasn't already. Actually, the cover

25 page I'd like, please. Thank you.

Page 1837

1 You were interviewed on February 21st and 22nd of this year;

2 correct?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. That's less than three months ago?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. And the events that took place during Operation Storm were about

7 12 and a half years ago; correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. If you go to the last page, please. Your signature appears on

10 the last page dated February 22nd of '08; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Where were you when you signed the acknowledgment?

13 A. This specific one on the 22nd of February?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I was in New York city.

16 Q. And you were visited by members of the Office of the Prosecutor

17 to conduct these interviews?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. In New York city?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. I'd like you to refer to the top of page 6 of that same

22 statement. You describe and Mr. Kehoe cross-examined you on the issue of

23 the mortar round; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What type of mortar was it, if you can recall?

Page 1838

1 A. I can't recall.

2 Q. Do you know -- okay. It wasn't an artillery shell from a

3 howitzer?

4 A. Definitely not.

5 Q. When you talk about a mortar round, what kind of range would that

6 mortar round have, if you know?

7 A. Depends on which mortar round was used.

8 Q. And you're not sure which mortar round was used; correct?

9 A. It would be my presumption it was 80-81-millimetre mortar that

10 was used but it could have been smaller. I don't know what mortar rounds

11 were available, but to my knowledge, it would have been in the 80s range.

12 Q. What is the range of that?

13 A. About 5 kilometres.

14 Q. The other point that you referenced in this paragraph which

15 was -- which has been discussed is the issue of the body bags; correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And then in paragraph 22 you discuss additional observations

18 which you expounded on in your testimony. The additional observations in

19 paragraph 22 described in the last sentence, "I cannot be precise as to

20 the number of dead that I saw but it was at least tens of people."

21 Did I read that correctly?

22 A. You do.

23 Q. And then in your transcript earlier today -- now I lost it, I'm

24 sorry. Here we go. Page 9, starting on line 22. You made specific

25 descriptions of what you saw in your testimony; correct?

Page 1839

1 A. Sorry, I can't see it.

2 Q. I will read portions of it to you. At line -- at page 10, line

3 4, you stated, "They were all shot at close range. I'm not saying by

4 whom. I'm saying they were shot at close range. The two I refer to just

5 now were shot through the head. We found a shallow grave with a man with

6 his hands tied behind his back was shot through the head."

7 Those are pretty specific recollections; are they not?

8 A. They are.

9 Q. And they stuck with you, did they?

10 A. They did.

11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Okay. I'd like the usher to please pull up 65

12 ter 04830. And with the assistance of the usher, I'd like to give

13 Mr. Dreyer a copy of this statement. Actually, it's the wrong statement,

14 I'm sorry. 04841.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, is this an earlier statement of the

16 witness?

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, the Chamber wondered what to do

19 with paragraph 22 of the present statement where it refers to an earlier

20 statement clarifies all kinds of things, the Chamber has no knowledge

21 whatsoever about the earlier statement so therefore, it's not especially

22 helpful, but we'll now get a glance at an earlier statement.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Dreyer, you have that statement in front of you?

Page 1840

1 A. I do not.

2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's the wrong one. Actually if I could have

3 that one back. I'm sorry. Sorry, Mr. Usher.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO so we can see it as well

5 and that the witness, if it's zoomed in properly, that he can look at the

6 screen.

7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Certainly, Your Honour, I had asked for it to be

8 pulled up.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's a mistake. I'm sorry.

10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Do we need it on the ELMO, Your Honour? I don't

11 think so.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, we don't need it on the ELMO.

13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I just wanted to give it to the witness so he

14 could follow along.

15 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

16 Q. Mr. Dreyer, you have that interview in front of you?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. The date on the interview on the cover page is -- there are two

19 interviews, the first is November 8th, 1995, some three months after

20 Operation Storm; correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And the second interview which comprises this statement was on

23 February 4th of 1996, some six months after Operation Storm; correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And on the last page, if that could be pulled up, please. You

Page 1841

1 signed that on February 4th, 1996; correct?

2 A. I think so, yeah.

3 Q. And the page before which is page 4 of the statement, at the

4 bottom of that statement, you say, "This statement" -- or it's written,

5 "This statement was recorded by me at sector west HQ Daruvar on the 4th

6 of February 1996 at 1600 hours." Did I read that correctly?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where is Daruvar? Is that in Croatia?

9 A. At the time -- yeah, of course.

10 Q. So you were interviewed in Croatia three months after and six

11 months after Operation Storm when you signed this statement?

12 A. No. No. I was not interviewed -- the second statement was

13 recorded by myself in my office in Daruvar.

14 Q. So you recorded it on a tape and sent to back to the Office of

15 the Prosecutor?

16 A. No, I wrote it.

17 Q. Do you have the original written statement?

18 A. I typed it out.

19 Q. So you typed -- this is in your typewriter, you did this

20 yourself?

21 A. Let me just look again.

22 Q. Sure. Other than the second page.

23 A. Excuse me.

24 Q. Other than the second page which appears to be handwritten.

25 A. It's certainly my -- what I wrote. Whether it was -- but it was

Page 1842

1 certainly not -- I was not interviewed in Daruvar.

2 Q. Okay. You typed this yourself?

3 A. Very -- the content, yes, whether it was laid out like this by

4 myself, I can't recall.

5 Q. And you were interviewed over the phone?

6 A. I was interviewed for the first time in person in Knin.

7 Q. In November of 1995?

8 A. The first date, yes.

9 Q. All right. Why don't we go to page 2 of that statement,

10 Mr. Dreyer. This is the statement that you signed on February 4th of

11 1996 which comprised the results of two separate interviews in 1995 and

12 1996. You again toward the bottom of that page in the paragraph that

13 starts, "At about ..." if you could go down to the third sentence that

14 starts, "At about 1000 hours ..." You talk about the mortar round

15 incident; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you talk about the body bag incident; correct?

18 A. I'm just reading, please. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Nowhere in this statement is a discussion of the tens of people

20 that you saw on the 9th; correct?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. The bottom of page 2, you describe the civilian situation in Knin

23 before offensive and on the second-last line, you state, "Front line

24 soldiers could be seen at the coffee shops and old people walking

25 around." Did I read that correctly?

Page 1843

1 A. You did.

2 Q. So there were front line soldiers in and about Knin at the time,

3 from your recollection?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the page 3 of your statement, if you'd go there. Under

6 military situation. The second sentence, "During the day, a substantial

7 amount of soldiers could have been seen in town due to the rotation

8 programme."

9 Did I read that correctly?

10 A. You did.

11 Q. What is the rotation programme?

12 A. I can't recall what I referred to there. I would presume that

13 there was soldiers coming and soldiers going out and I presume that's

14 what I was referring to.

15 Q. Okay. So if that's what you were referring to and earlier you

16 said if it's not in your statement, you didn't see it, in your earlier

17 testimony, that rotation program would be something that was a military

18 thing; correct?

19 A. Excuse me, can you repeat your question.

20 Q. Sure.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER: [Microphone not activated].

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please use your microphone?

24 MR. TIEGER: [Microphone not activated].

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you again use your microphone because it's not

Page 1844

1 on, but perhaps other microphones are on which ...

2 MR. TIEGER: Okay. Sorry, Your Honour. I'll try again. Similar

3 objection to the one I made before. I think the witness's previous

4 reference, if I recall correctly, was to a specific question and a

5 specific subject matter. I think this may be used at the moment as an

6 all-encompassing qualification about the statement. I think it just

7 needs to be made clear so the witness is aware.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, isn't it true that apart from that

9 rereading your sentence, it's not entirely clear but -- if you please

10 just ask the witness what --

11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I will do that Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- what he knows and what he has seen.

13 Yes, please proceed.


15 Q. At the bottom of page 3, you note in your statement, "During 4

16 August 1995, I only observed about three to five dead bodies in the

17 street, all civilians."

18 Did I read that correctly?

19 A. You did.

20 Q. And this was again the statement that was given three and six

21 months after Operation Storm; correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. I'd like, if you would, Mr. -- I'd like to move this statement

24 into evidence, Your Honour. I need a number.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

Page 1845

1 MR. TIEGER: If I could just have one moment, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The same problem with the microphone. I switched

3 mine off earlier so that yours would do, but now it's --

4 MR. TIEGER: In any event, Your Honour, no objection.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D109.

7 JUDGE ORIE: D109 admitted into evidence.

8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Dreyer, I'd like you to go back to P72, the 2008 statement,

10 page 3, note number 9.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Note number 9 it says, "For all the above reasons, it can be said

13 that the fire on both 4 and 5 August was indiscriminate."

14 Did I read that correctly?

15 A. You did.

16 Q. I'd like you to go back to D109, your statement given three and

17 six months after Operation Storm. You make no such conclusion in the

18 statement that you gave three and six months after Operation Storm; is

19 that correct?

20 A. I'll have to read the whole statement, but if you say -- yeah.

21 Q. If you want to read it to confirm it you, you may, but I can tell

22 you that no such conclusion is made in D109.

23 A. Okay.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.

25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1846

1 JUDGE ORIE: That is a question the Chamber could answer as well

2 by reviewing that statement whether it's in that statement or not. In

3 general, there is no need to put questions to a witness where the answer,

4 whatever it is, is clear, whatever the witness says. For example, if you

5 ask whether the 3rd of February is less than three months ago then if the

6 witness says no, then of course the Chamber would not accept that as a

7 no. Of course if there's any reason to doubt the date on which the

8 statement was given, but these are the kind of ritual dances which

9 apparently are practised in some jurisdictions and while we often can do

10 without --

11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I understand, I understand. I'm not a good

12 dancer either, Your Honour.


14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Mr. Registrar, if you could please pull up 65

15 ter 04830.

16 And Mr. Usher, I have a copy for the witness -- the right one,

17 this time.

18 Q. Mr. Dreyer, you have that statement in front of you?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. It's on the -- on the cover page, it's dated November 8th, 1995;

21 correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Three months after Operation Storm?

24 A. Correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, you certainly remember what I just

Page 1847

1 said, unnecessary questions.

2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I do, yes.

3 Q. Page 2 of that document was signed by you; correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And it was signed at Sector South HQ Knin on 8 November 1995?

6 A. That's what the statement says.

7 Q. Again, you mentioned earlier on page 2 in the middle paragraph

8 the fourth sentence that starts, "At about 1000 hours ..." are you there?

9 A. Is that the same page, page 2?

10 Q. Yes. "At about 1000 hours whilst civilians ..."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That's the mortar incident you mentioned in your first statement

13 and in your last statement; correct? Meaning that this incident is

14 contained in all three statements, is it not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the body bag incident further down is contained in all three

17 statements; correct?

18 A. I think they are.

19 Q. Yet the sighting of tens of dead is not included in this

20 statement of November 8th, 1995; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

23 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, I think there may be some --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Again, a microphone problem. Could someone else

25 switch his microphone off so that Mr. Tieger's voice could be heard?

Page 1848

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

2 It seems to be in a couple of questions about that incident an

3 attempt to link or consolidate the reference to tens of dead with the

4 incident by the compound on August 5th and I don't think the statement

5 makes that link.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, would you agree that the tens are

7 not related to that?

8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I agree. My whole point, Your Honour, is that

9 this recollection in such detail was not made three months, six months,

10 and two years after the incident, and it's been made here today at trial

11 and three months ago.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was the five to ten, isn't it? But you

13 are now referring to the tens which appears somewhere else in the

14 statement.

15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Correct.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore if you would link them, should it at

17 least be clear and that the witness should not be taken by surprise that

18 what he earlier said was about the tens of dead related to that incident.

19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure, Your Honour, I guess I'll go back again.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


22 Q. To page 6 of P72, Mr. Dreyer, which is your February 21 and 22,

23 2008 statement?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Paragraph 22.

Page 1849

1 A. Paragraph?

2 Q. 22.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This incident in paragraph 22 you would agree with me, would you

5 not, was not described in your previous two statements; correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'd like to --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see, 22 of the February 08 statement?

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: 22 -- you said this incident.

11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Described in paragraph 22.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is there one incident described or is there -- I do

13 see that one day after we were let out of the UN compound, and finding

14 many dead civilians ..."

15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I don't think that's where we are, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's 22 for me but perhaps it's ...

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Paragraph 22 of P72.

18 MR. TIEGER: It's the February 2008 statement, Your Honour,

19 paragraph 22 begins "Although I cannot recall the specific dates, I do

20 recall ..."

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Now where is the exact incident? Is it

22 "Finding many dead civilians ..."

23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Correct, "most of which had been shot at close

24 range."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is that -- I'm a bit confused. Is that the same

Page 1850

1 incident as the mortal shell?

2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It is not. It is not and the witness can

3 confirm that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It says something about finding dead bodies,

5 not about that they were all shot at one incident, were they? At least

6 that's not what I can read there.

7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: We're talking about two different things, Your

8 Honour.


10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: The mortar incident and the body bag incident

11 are consistent throughout all three statements and in this statement of

12 February of 2008 it's described in paragraph 19.


14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: In paragraph 22, there is a new incident now in

15 which the witness states that there were men and women all shot at close

16 range. They were not wearing military uniforms and they -- he cannot be

17 precise to the number because it was at least tens of people.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The confusion is that you are referring to an

19 incident where what I see here is that you find a number of bodies which

20 are not necessarily part of one incident, as far as I can see.

21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I understand that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: At least it's not described as an incident, it's

23 described as finding a number of bodies and some conclusions drawn to

24 that.

25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1851

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm winding up here Judge but ...

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, but we -- may I take it, Mr. Tieger,

4 that you would --

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I just have one matter very quickly in

6 redirect. I think we can send the witness home today and I'd really urge

7 the Court to do that since Mr. Kuzmanovic is winding up he's aware of my

8 concerns about time.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then of course I have to avoid further troubles with

10 other Trial Chambers. Let me just ask the registrar.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: We are under some pressure.

13 Mr. Kuzmanovic, three minutes would do?

14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That will do, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


17 Q. Mr. Dreyer, the November 8th of 1995 statement, if you could get

18 that in front of you.

19 A. I've got it in front of me.

20 Q. That document is also -- is silent about indiscriminate artillery

21 fire, is it not?

22 A. It's silent about what?

23 Q. Indiscriminate artillery fire; correct?

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, can I resolve this, please, quickly.


Page 1852

1 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Kuzmanovic said it's also silent about artillery

2 indiscriminate artillery fire, D109, the statement that he referred to

3 earlier says at page 3, and that's the statement that was signed in

4 February of 1996, "For all of the above reasons it can be said that the

5 fire was indiscriminate." Perhaps we can just eliminate these questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, any need to put further questions as

7 what appears and what does not appear in this statement?

8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No, there isn't, Your Honour. It is silent as

9 to that.

10 MR. TIEGER: It is on page 3, Your Honour, and I would ask

11 Mr. Kuzmanovic to look at it, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try -- Mr. Tieger, you are not supposed to

13 give the answers to the questions, but if it is on page 3,

14 Mr. Kuzmanovic, which I did not check, then of course there's no need to

15 put this question to the witness. If it's not, then as I said before,

16 whether something is in or is not in a statement, the parties could even

17 agree on that.

18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure. I don't have a problem with that, the 8th

19 of November interview 65 ter 04830 --

20 JUDGE ORIE: The parties are invited to get together and to see

21 whether the indiscriminate fire appears in this statement, yes or no.

22 Yes.

23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I can tell Your Honour it does not.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger says it does, so therefore --

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but my point

Page 1853

1 was is it was referred to -- Mr. Kuzmanovic said also, meaning he was

2 referring back to the February 1996 statement about which he asked

3 earlier and suggested that there was no reference to indiscriminate fire

4 in that statement. There is such a reference at page 3.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The parties are invited to agree on whether

6 the word indiscriminate fire appears in these statements and if they

7 cannot agree on that, I will certainly be available to assist them at

8 meetings 7.00 in the morning. Please proceed.

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm done. I would just like to

10 admit this last November 8th, 1995 statement into evidence.

11 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D110.

14 JUDGE ORIE: D110 is admitted into evidence.

15 Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER: I will just move quickly through redirect, if I may

17 Your Honour.

18 Re-examination by Mr. Tieger:

19 Q. Mr. Dreyer, very quickly, Mr. Kehoe asked you reporting back at

20 the end of your second trip and that begins towards the end of page 56,

21 continues on to page 57. You indicated the timing of that trip and then

22 you were asked at approximately 5620 or so when you got back and again

23 that's a reference to the second trip, did you report to anyone? And

24 then you said, "It says in my statement here that I went back to the

25 bunker and discussed with the sector commander and Chief of Staff." You

Page 1854

1 were referring back to your statement.

2 Can I direct your attention back to your statement at page 4, ask

3 you to look at the last sentence under the paragraph regarding the first

4 trip which says, "In the bunker I liaised with the sector commander and

5 the sector administration officer and informed them of the delinquency of

6 our first attempt."

7 And the next paragraph 13 contains the reference to the second

8 trip which does not have a similar reference to the bunker and liaising

9 with the sector commander and the sector administration officer and so

10 on.

11 When you were referring back to your statement to indicate to you

12 reported to was that at the end of the first trip or the second trip?

13 A. I believe I reported at the return of each trip, I reported back

14 on our progress.

15 MR. TIEGER: Okay. Thank you.

16 Judge Kinis has a question for you.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE KINIS: Thank you. In your statement 2008, you mentioned

19 in paragraph 3, you mentioned that during the day, a substantial amount

20 of soldiers could have been seen in the town.

21 Could you please clarify this issue?

22 A. Yes, Your Honour. When I referred to the substantial amount of

23 soldiers that could be seen in town, Knin was generally seen from our

24 perspective as the rest and recuperation location, so the soldiers that

25 was observed in town were seen as clearly soldiers but unarmed. They

Page 1855

1 were there on their R and R. That's what I was referring to.

2 JUDGE ORIE: One question for you as well. Could P64 be put on

3 the screen.

4 This document has been shown to you before today and I would also

5 like you to focus on paragraph 2 of this document which is an assessment

6 of the damage. It reads, "The damages caused by shelling to civilian

7 establishments is concentrate to the close vicinity of military

8 objectives. Only few (3-5) impacts is observed in other urban areas."

9 Now, we went in quite some detail through the itineraries you

10 took at this day. This assessment, do you consider that in view of the

11 observations you made, an accurate assessment of the damage which was

12 done to urban areas not close to military objectives, and I would like

13 you, for answering this question, to accept the suggestion or the

14 assumption by the Defence on what military objectives were.

15 Would you consider, on the basis of this assumption, this to be

16 an accurate description of the damage to civilian areas?

17 A. Your Honour, if the -- what was presented in the red was indeed

18 military objectives.


20 A. That was the part of the city that was the most intense bombarded

21 during that day, correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But now, I'm asking you mainly about areas

23 which -- and it says here "Three to five impacts is observed in other

24 urban areas." That is urban areas not close to military targets.

25 A. Looking at the map, Your Honour, I would not necessarily agree

Page 1856

1 with that fully. They were on the ground looking at it, so I presume

2 that the statement over there is correct, but certainly where we were

3 driving and the areas where we were collecting UN staff members, there

4 was shelling or the impact of shelling wherever we went, as indicated on

5 my map.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And urban areas, you indicated on these maps where

7 there were portions of your itinerary where you didn't see any of the

8 suggested military targets very nearby. Would you agree then that there

9 were very few impacts, three to five, in those portions of the -- that

10 you saw?

11 A. I would say few impacts. Three to five, Your Honour, I can't

12 say, but I said fewer than in the areas that were indicated with yellow.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's basically answered. Thank you very

14 much.

15 Any need for further questions caused by the questions by the

16 Chamber.

17 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, if I could have just a moment.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you urged the Chamber to release the

20 witness today.

21 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate that, Your Honour.

22 Okay, okay.

23 Just one point of clarification, Mr. Dreyer --

24 I'm sorry about the delay, Your Honour.

25 Further re-examination by Mr. Tieger:

Page 1857

1 Q. Mr. Dreyer, in the appendices and the exhibits you provided you

2 indicated areas where you saw shelling and some of the specific impacts

3 you observed. Some of those areas as you saw were in the vicinities

4 where the Defence asserted there were military targets and some of those

5 areas were outside those areas where the Defence had indicated there were

6 military targets; is that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. As you just indicated to the Court, you observed more

9 concentrated fire in the area where they indicated there was military

10 targets, but you also observed shelling everywhere you went that day?

11 A. That's what I said, yes.

12 MR. KEHOE: I object, Judge. That's not what he just said. I

13 mean he answered Your Honour's question specifically on this particular

14 score, that in the area and counsel is leading the witness and trying to

15 put words in his mouth, and I object.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- well, to some extent he did. To some extent

17 he also reflected what the witness said earlier. That's a matter also of

18 consistency in the testimony.

19 Let's be quite clear, Mr. Dreyer. What this Chamber would like

20 to know and what apparently Mr. Tieger wanted to find out is whether, in

21 the areas where there were no military targets, as far as the Defence

22 tells us, whether what, approximately, the number of damaged -- impacts

23 were.

24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, what I could see, we were under a

25 great amount of pressure while we were driving around.

Page 1858


2 THE WITNESS: What we could have seen that there was certainly at

3 the areas indicated in yellow, where the military targets were supposed

4 to be there was a concentration of fire but in civilian areas outside

5 where there was not indicative of yellow military targets, there was also

6 but not as intense as the areas.

7 JUDGE ORIE: But if also -- you said three to five, not

8 necessarily. Could you be more precise? If not, please tell us.

9 THE WITNESS: I cannot be more precise, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You cannot be more precise. Then that's clear.

11 Mr. Tieger, may I take it that this answers also your question?

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.


14 Then Mr. Dreyer, this concludes your testimony in this court.

15 We'd like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague and for

16 having answered questions of the parties and questions of the Bench.

17 Yes, Mr. -- Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Just -- I'm sorry, just to clarify because I

19 apologise very much for this but I just want to make sure.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you refer -- if you would like to refer to what

21 the witness said before and that's what you apparently did, you should

22 quote him literally. I don't know whether it was a literal quote or not,

23 I did not verify that, so therefore we will be very critical of any

24 question you would like to put to the witness at this moment.


Page 1859

1 Q. Mr. Dreyer, in the areas where you indicated shelling on your

2 aerial maps, both in the appendices and elsewhere, I know you indicated

3 both specific impacts locations that you recalled and areas where

4 shelling occurred. In the areas where you indicated shelling occurred,

5 was there at least one shell impact in those areas?

6 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I object. This was all on direct examination.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, this is also a question which doesn't

8 need an answer because if you design an area where for shell impact then

9 it means that at least there should be one, isn't it? And then

10 Mr. Tieger, I see you are counting number of areas, one, two, three,

11 four, five, I take it that that's what you are --

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm just trying to clarify this. I

13 think there is a suggestion here that maybe in the areas outside the

14 areas where the yellow pin points were, there may have been only three to

15 five impacts and I'm asking the witness if that's the case or if --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the clue is the word "vicinity." That's the

17 clue and that might be one of the problems, what is still in the vicinity

18 of and what is not. I did not understand this witness to say that in the

19 areas he marked, that there was no shell impact at all. He had specific

20 ones and in areas, I do understand, that there was at least one impact.

21 Mr. Dreyer.

22 THE WITNESS: Correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And that was your last question, isn't it?

24 MR. TIEGER: And I wanted to ask

25 JUDGE ORIE: We don't have to comment.

Page 1860

1 MR. TIEGER: And I wanted to ask him if in some instances there

2 were more and if so, how many more.

3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if we want to go back through the whole

4 direct and cross.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we have heard the witness and --

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I started saying to Mr. Dreyer that he

8 has concluded his testimony and that I'd like to thank him not only for

9 answering the questions put to him by the parties and by the Bench but

10 also the additional question put to him by Mr. Tieger and I wish you a

11 safe trip home again.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, could you escort the witness out

14 of the courtroom.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ORIE: We have no witness for tomorrow. However, we have

17 an MFI list still to be dealt with. Now, there are two ways of doing

18 that. That is to come to court tomorrow all of us, interpreters,

19 security, everyone, and deal with it there or to see whether there's a

20 possibility that we -- that there is an agreement about what objections

21 there still are, what translations we are still waiting for and are

22 not -- however, I like it to be all 40 of us in court.

23 So therefore I suggest that we make an attempt this afternoon to

24 see how far we come in that respect and that we would not then sit

25 tomorrow which would mean that we would then adjourn but under this

Page 1861

1 proviso until Monday, the 21st of April, 9.00 in the morning.

2 Mr. Registrar, would this be the same courtroom? It would be

3 Courtroom III.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.07 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of April,

6 2008, at 9.00 a.m.