Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2694

1 Tuesday, 13 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom; and also

6 those who can watch us through videolink, good morning, Mr. Doraiswamy,

7 in Zagreb.

8 Before we start with the examination of the witness, I'd first

9 like to inform the parties that the Chamber has decided to the grant the

10 protective measures as requested; reasons to follow. That means face

11 distortion and pseudonym for Witness 69.

12 I would also like to inform the parties that the Chamber has

13 decided, being advised to do so by The Victims and Witness Section, to

14 have short sessions, in view of the medical condition and the age of

15 Witness 69. That means sessions of approximately one hour, and have

16 breaks which are a little bit longer than usual.

17 Further, the parties are informed that Witness 69 has some

18 hearing problems, although it has been tested, and it seems that he does

19 understand. He can hear. What he needs to hear, especially with the

20 earphones on, it is acceptable. But for you to be aware, if there is any

21 mal-communication, that it might be due to this hearing problem.

22 Then, finally, I'm also informed that the witness who has not a

23 perfect sight, which is not surprising at this age, has also forgotten

24 bring his glasses, which might cause some additional problems, but we'll

25 see how to overcome them.

Page 2695

1 Finally, on the basis of the conversations the witness has had

2 with The Victims and Witness Section, it appears that he is fully capable

3 of understanding and communicating with others, if you don't mix up too

4 many matters at the same time. Even at my age, I'm already sometimes

5 confused by composite questions, et cetera. So let's try to keep matters

6 so simple that the witness understands them and that the Chamber

7 understands them as well.

8 Mr. Tieger, who is going to examine the witness.

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you. Mr. Hedaraly will

10 takes this witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to call your next

12 witness.

13 MR. HEDARALY: We are.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then, yes, Mr. Doraiswamy, would you please --

15 MR. HEDARALY: The Prosecution would like to call Witness 69.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so, we have to fix some problems

17 with the earphones, but that is a matter of --

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has it been fixed?

20 Then, Mr. Doraiswamy, could you please take care that the witness

21 enters the room in which you are.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness 69. Can you hear me in a

24 language you understand?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can hear you well. I can

Page 2696

1 hear.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we start, I would like to ask you,

3 Mr. Registrar, to inform the Chamber about who is present in the room you

4 are in at this moment.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour, and good

6 morning to everybody in the courtroom. Beside me is the witness, and I

7 also have the audio/visual technician. There are three of us present in

8 the room.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that information.

10 Witness 69 before you give evidence, the Rules require you to

11 make a solemn declaration. The solemn declaration is that you will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text has been

13 handed out to you. I hope you can read it. May I invite you to make

14 that solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness testified via videolink]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Witness 69, the Chamber has decided that

21 the protective measures you are asked for, that is, face distortion and

22 pseudonym, are granted. That means that we are not using your own name.

23 We will just call you Witness 69. The parties are hereby urged to take

24 care that not, by questions, for the clue to the identity of the witness

25 could be given, so to ask for private session whenever needed.

Page 2697

1 You will first be examined by Mr. Hedaraly, who is counsel for

2 the Prosecution.

3 Mr. Hedaraly, please proceed.

4 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

5 Honour. Good morning, Mr. Registrar in Zagreb. Good morning, Witness.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

8 MR. HEDARALY: If I could first have 65 ter number 4860, which is

9 tab 1, for Mr. Registrar in Zagreb; and that's a pseudonym sheet, so if

10 we could not publish that outside the courtroom.

11 Q. Witness, can you please confirm that these are your personal

12 details?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. I see.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go into private session for a second.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2698

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.

18 Mr. Registrar, if we could pull up 65 ter number 4858 on the

19 screen, under seal, again.

20 This is tab 2 for Mr. Registrar in Zagreb.

21 Q. Witness, do you recall being interviewed by representatives of

22 the Office of the Prosecutor on 31 May 1997 and providing a written

23 statement on that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you have a chance to review that statement yesterday?

Page 2699

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And I understand that there are some corrections that needs --

3 that need to be made regarding the bodies that you discovered in your

4 hamlet: Which ones you observed yourself and of which ones you were told

5 by someone else.

6 Would you like to make that clarification now for the Court?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please invite the witness, again, if he

8 talks about bodies, to be clear that he talks about brothers and sisters,

9 or whatever, but not specific persons.


11 Q. If you could just refer to the first names of the bodies that you

12 saw and not mention the family names?

13 MR. HEDARALY: The names are common enough, Your Honour, that

14 that should guard confidentiality.

15 Q. Okay. Maybe I can help you. How many bodies did you yourself

16 see in your hamlet when you returned?

17 A. I saw only one in my courtyard.

18 Q. And what was the name, and only the first name, of the person

19 that you found in your courtyard?

20 A. Ilija.

21 Q. And the other four bodies mentioned in your statement, you were

22 told about these bodies by someone else. Is that correct?

23 A. A woman who is not quite sane told me. She was walking about

24 freely. She was allowed to move around freely. She told me about that,

25 but I didn't see it myself because I didn't normally use that road, that

Page 2700

1 path.

2 Q. Okay. If you can look back at your witness statement in front of

3 you, is that your signature at the bottom left of the first page?

4 A. Yes, I can see that.

5 Q. So does that signature mean that, subject to the correction that

6 we just made about the bodies, it accurately reflects what you told to

7 the Office of the Prosecutor in 1997?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And the contents of that statement that you signed in May 1997

10 were true to the best of your knowledge and recollection at the time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, finally, if you were asked the same questions today that you

13 were asked in 1997, you would give the same answers to the extent that

14 you could remember?

15 A. Well, I have forgotten a lot of things. I'm getting on in age,

16 you know.

17 Q. I understand that. But to the extent that you could remember,

18 you said that this statement was accurate. So you would, to the extent

19 that your memory would allow you, give the same answers to those

20 questions today, would you not?

21 A. Yes and no. I simply cannot remember all of it.

22 Q. But you did sign that statement in 1997, right?

23 A. Yes. But I had a stroke in the meantime, and the disease does

24 its dirty work.

25 Q. But to the extent that you signed this in 1997, you signed it

Page 2701

1 because it was accurate, right?

2 A. Correct. Correct. That is accurate.

3 Q. So if you were asked the same questions today, if you remember

4 these answers, they would be the same as the ones that you gave in that

5 statement that you signed?

6 A. Well, certainly, except that today I wouldn't have been able to

7 remember all of that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that this comes as close to as an

9 attestation under 92 bis as possible and that, of course, Rule 92 bis

10 does not pay attention to time as a factor which might disable a witness

11 to give exactly the same answers, because he might have forgotten

12 something about that. But as far as matters stand, unless I hear now

13 from the Defence, this amounts to what 92 bis says, which, of course,

14 leaves it open to say that to the extent the witness has lost

15 recollection of certain matters, that it might have an impact on further

16 questions to be put to him.

17 The Chamber, of course, then will decide how to deal with that.

18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, for the Gotovina Defence, we will

19 would agree that -- I believe that Your Honour said "92 bis," I believe

20 you mean "92 ter," if I am not mistaken.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 92 ter, yes, because otherwise there would be

22 no further questions for the witness.

23 MR. MISETIC: With the caveat, however, I think this is what Your

24 Honour was saying, to the extent that the inability to recollect impedes

25 the cross-examination or our ability to inquire as to the matters in the

Page 2702

1 statement, I would reserve on that point. But, yes, for purposes of the

2 requirements of 92 ter, we have no objection.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then the question would arise whether 92 ter or, to

4 some extent, 92 quater would come into play, although not literally

5 applicable.

6 Any other positions from the other Defence teams.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections, Your Honour.

8 MR. KAY: No objections, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

10 MR. HEDARALY: Then, Mr. President, at this time, I would like to

11 have 65 ter 4858 admitted into evidence, under seal, pursuant to Rule

12 92 ter.


14 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections.

15 MR. KAY: No objections.

16 MR. HEDARALY: And we have a redacted version for Mr. Registrar

17 that can be assigned a different number.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to take things in the proper order.

19 First, pseudonym sheet, which is usually unobjected.

20 Mr. Registrar, the pseudonym sheet would be?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P178, under

22 seal.

23 JUDGE ORIE: P178 is admitted, under seal.

24 Mr. Hedaraly then we have the 92 ter statement?

25 MR. HEDARALY: That's correct.

Page 2703

1 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

2 Mr. Registrar that would be?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P179, Your Honours, also under seal.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then P179 is admitted, under seal.

5 MR. HEDARALY: My apologies to the Bench and to Mr. Registrar for

6 the pseudonym sheet.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It is easily accepted.

8 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.


10 MR. HEDARALY: If we could have 65 ter 4859 on the screen also

11 under seal for now.

12 That's tab 3, Mr. Registrar in Zagreb.

13 Q. Witness, do you also recall providing a second witness statement

14 to representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor on 18 October 2004?

15 A. 2004, I don't recall who was there.

16 Q. I believe it was an investigator that came to your hamlet, to

17 your house, to ask you some questions.

18 A. The investigator. I don't know. I don't remember.

19 Q. Well, a female investigator with dark hair.

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Okay. Can you take a look at the bottom right of that statement,

22 of the English version of the statement that you have in front of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that your signature?

25 A. Yes, that's it.

Page 2704

1 Q. Now, did you have a chance to review that statement yesterday?

2 Was that statement read out to you by someone who spoke your language?

3 A. Yes, it was read out.

4 Q. Now, that signature, does it mean that it accurately reflected

5 what happened you said on that date?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And then the contents of that statement that you signed in 2004

8 were true to the best of your knowledge and recollection at that time?

9 A. Yes.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, referring back to the answers of the

12 witness previously, I would like to move for admission under 92 ter at

13 this moment without asking whether the answers would be the same today.

14 JUDGE ORIE: No objection, I take it, with the same pro vico with

15 the previous 92 ter statement.

16 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.

18 Yes. Then, Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P180, under seal, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P180 is admitted into evidence, under seal.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, at this time, I would like to read

23 a short summary of the evidence contained in those two witness

24 statements; and if you inform the witness for the purpose of this, I

25 would appreciate it.

Page 2705

1 JUDGE ORIE: I will do so.

2 Witness 69, since you have given statements already and since

3 further questions may be put to you in relation to those statements, the

4 Prosecutor now will read a summary of what is in those statements. You

5 don't have to respond to it, just listen. It is mainly to inform the

6 public about what is in your statement; and after that, further questions

7 will be put to you.

8 So just listen for the time being.

9 Mr. Hedaraly, Please proceed.

10 MR. HEDARALY: And I believe a copy was provided to the

11 interpretation booth.

12 Witness 69 lived in a hamlet north of Knin when Operation Storm

13 started in August 1995. On the 5th of August, at around 10.00 in the

14 morning, his village was heavily shelled for about half an hour from the

15 direction of Grahovo. His stable was hit and its roof was damaged .

16 Later that day, Croatian soldiers, with a Croatian armoured

17 vehicle, entered his village. One of these soldiers, in military

18 uniform, forced his neighbour, Dmitar, who was 81 years old at the time,

19 to go with him behind his house. He heard a burst of automatic gun-fire;

20 and a week or so later, this elderly neighbour's body was found.

21 Witness 69 escaped and fled to the woods, and he advised two

22 friends who had sought refuge at his house, Milka and Ilija, who were and

23 son, to do the same. From his hiding point, he saw Croatian soldiers

24 lighting the house of one of his other neighbours, Djuka, on fire. He

25 returned that night, under the cover of darkness, to find the body of

Page 2706

1 Ilija, the son who had sought refuge with him, lying in his yard. He

2 also met with other villagers hiding in the forest; and a day or two

3 later, one of them noticed that her house had been burned. This woman

4 confronted the Croatian soldiers and identified them to the witness as

5 members of the Split Brigade.

6 When he returned to his house on one occasion, a week or so later

7 after the beginning of the operation, on the 11th or 12th August, he was

8 told that the following bodies were discovered in addition to the body of

9 Ilija, which was still lying there. These were the bodies of Dmitar, the

10 81-year-old man he saw being taken behind his house by a Croatian

11 soldier; Milka, the mother of Ilija who had sought refuge in his house;

12 Djuro; and one body that was not identified.

13 In addition, he noticed on that day that his house had been

14 ransacked; and in the course of the following days, while hiding in the

15 woods, he observed Croatian soldiers in uniform looting the houses in his

16 hamlet and taking valuable items away. His own valuable items were

17 loaded onto his own tractor and taken away.

18 Finally, Witness 69 made his way to the UN compound and left on

19 the buses to Serbia with the other refugees on 17 September 1995.

20 This concludes my summary, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 MR. HEDARALY: I'm looking at Mr. President to see whenever a

23 break is appropriate.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll inform the witness.

25 Witness 69, some questions will now be put to you. Whenever you

Page 2707

1 think you need a break because you are tired, please tell us. I have in

2 mind at this moment to allow Mr. Hedaraly to start with another 25

3 minutes of questioning, and then we will have a break. But if you feel

4 not comfortable, if you get too much tired, please tell me, then we'll

5 have a break a bit earlier.

6 Is that understood?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

9 MR. HEDARALY: Can we just move into private session for a few

10 questions.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2708

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


15 Q. Now without naming any of them, how many hamlets were there in

16 your village?

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 Q. Okay. In your hamlet, how many houses were there in your

21 specific hamlet, and please don't name it or don't name any of the

22 inhabitants, but just the number of houses in your hamlet in August 1995?

23 A. Well, there were about 20 houses.

24 Q. And how many --

25 A. [Indiscernible]

Page 2709

1 Q. And how many -- how many people lived in your hamlet in

2 August 1995 before Operation Storm began?

3 A. Well, quite a few of them, but it was impossible to count them

4 all. And in the end, there were none. At one time, there were more

5 people living in a single house than there are living in the whole hamlet

6 now.

7 Q. How many people are living in the hamlet now?

8 A. Well, as I have told you, seven or eight people, women, all of

9 them old.

10 Q. And before, on average, in August 1995, in the 20 houses, on

11 average, how many people would live in each house?

12 A. Well, on the average, 50 or 60 of those members.

13 Q. Sorry. Are you talking about 50 or 60 total in the house? I

14 asked you - and maybe my question was unclear - how many people, on

15 average, would live in each individual house of the 20 houses?

16 A. Oh, okay then. Five, six, seven, eight people per house;

17 sometimes three, maybe two.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. No. There was not a single house where only two people lived.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you for that answer. I want to move now in your

21 statement when you talk about your village being shelled on the 5th of

22 August.

23 I want to start with your hamlets which -- with your specific

24 hamlet, and once again don't say the name.

25 Can you please tell the Court how many shells fell in your

Page 2710

1 hamlet?

2 A. That's what I can't recall. One hit my cousin's house and the

3 other one hit my barn. I don't know how many shells hit our area, but I

4 can tell that you the lower part of the village that is on the other side

5 of the railway track that's where most of the shells fell. This was a

6 more convenient target for them to shell.

7 Q. Let me just focus on your hamlet. You said that there were at

8 least - if I understood correctly - at least two shells fell in your

9 hamlet specifically.

10 Have I understood that correctly?

11 A. That's correct.

12 MR. HEDARALY: If we can have 65 ter number 4884.

13 Mr. Registrar in Zagreb, that is, I believe, the fourth picture

14 behind tab 8.

15 I don't know, Mr. Registrar, if there is a way to check that it

16 is the same picture that we have on the screen here, whether

17 Mr. Registrar there can make that -- sure.

18 If Mr. Registrar in Zagreb could just show the picture to the

19 camera, so we can confirm we have the same picture here on our screen.

20 No. That's not the one. I think it's the one after that. No.

21 Can you try the next one?

22 I apologise for this. Okay. Can you go before then, please.

23 No. The one before.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we give some guidance, Mr. Registrar. It

25 should be --

Page 2711

1 MR. HEDARALY: That's the one. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

2 Q. Now, Witness, on this picture, the building that we see partly

3 covered in the trees on the left in white, is that your house?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that building on the right, is that the barn that you were

6 talking about?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. The barn, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, have you asked the registry not to

9 show this picture on the screen? We're in open session, and, of course,

10 if no instructions are given that the picture should not be shown. I

11 don't know whether there were or not. It may not have been shown, but

12 you should be -- they have not been shown, but it's inadvertent if you

13 never give instructions.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 If we can go to the next picture, which was 65 ter 4883.

17 I believe, Mr. Registrar in Zagreb, that will be the picture

18 before.

19 If we could not show that one to the public as well.

20 No. It would be under tab 8. It's the one of his barn. It's a

21 close-up of the right side of the previous picture. Yes.

22 Thank you.

23 Q. Now, can you indicate for the Court where -- where the shell hit

24 on this -- on this barn or house, and describe what you saw?

25 A. It was hit here. Here, right here.

Page 2712

1 Q. So you circled in red, I'm assuming not at the tree, but at the

2 spot on the roof behind the tree. Correct?

3 A. Yes, that precisely was it. That's where the tree is on this

4 picture, but it's in the same direction. I can't do it in any other way.

5 Well, let's say here, here. Let me mark it this way then.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I would like to have this exhibit

8 entered into evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What about the earlier pictures.

10 MR. HEDARALY: That was simply for the demonstrative purposes,

11 but we can admit it as well, if there are no objections.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm not insisting on it, but I'm just

13 inquiring into --

14 MR. HEDARALY: It would be helpful to have both of them, Your

15 Honour, you're correct.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, then, the first picture?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the first picture with 65

18 ter 04884, that becomes Exhibit P181.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

20 MR. MISETIC: No objection.

21 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P181 is admitted into evidence.

23 Then, the next one, the picture marked by the witness?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that was 65 ter number 04883 marked

25 by the witness becomes Exhibit P182.

Page 2713

1 JUDGE ORIE: No objections from what I see. P182 is admitted

2 into evidence; both P181 and P182, under seal.


4 Q. Now, Witness, looking at this picture again, can you -- can you

5 situate for the Court where that second shell that you said hit fell with

6 respect to this -- to this picture of your barn. Was it behind it? Was

7 it the right of it, to the left of it, in front of it?

8 A. To the right, here. If you look at this area from this

9 direction, here. Well, but -- here. That would be here.

10 Q. So to the right side of what we see on the picture right now?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

12 MR. MISETIC: I apologise for interrupting. I'm not sure what

13 we're -- which we're talking about now. I'm reading the witness' prior

14 testimony where he says he recalls two shells, one that hit his barn and

15 one that his cousins house. So I'm not sure, when Mr. Hedaraly phrased

16 question, saying where the second shell hit, what shell we're referring

17 to.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Although, the cousin's house I think in the written

19 statement was located somewhere as well.

20 MR. HEDARALY: It was unclear from the statement, Your Honour, so

21 I want to clarify that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, please, could you put a more specific

23 question to the witness in this respect.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.


Page 2714

1 Q. Go ahead. Witness, is there something that you wanted to say?

2 A. Well, no, actually I don't have anything to say.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Nothing.

5 Q. So that second shell that you were talking about now that is not

6 on the picture, is that the one that fell on your cousin's house?

7 A. Yes, in the yard.

8 Q. Okay. So that house and that yard where that second shell fell

9 is located somewhere to the right of this picture you have in front of

10 you, P182. Is that correct?

11 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to object as to the leading here.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, could you --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

14 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I mean he already testified, and I'm

15 trying to clarify. He said that it hit his house, he said it was on the

16 right. I am just putting the two together, so that the record is clear.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Misetic.

18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, his prior answer is: "Yes, in the

19 yard," and then the follow up question is: "So it hit the house." That

20 is not clarification.

21 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry. I'll remove the house part and just

22 use the yard. That's fine.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Try to now, without adding anything, to see whether

24 the witness --

25 MR. HEDARALY: Okay.

Page 2715

1 Q. So the yard of your cousin's house where that second shell fell

2 is located somewhere to the right of this picture you have in front of

3 you, P182. Is that correct?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, let's take it step by step.

5 When you said the second shell fell into the yard, the yard of

6 what exactly?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My cousin's yard, here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I saw you were pointing at the right side of the

9 picture. Did you intend to say that your cousin's house was to the right

10 of what we see in this picture, and that your cousin's house cannot be

11 seen on the picture?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can't see it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But is it to the right of your house on this

14 picture?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you stand here, in front of the

16 yard, it's to the right, and the father's house is to the left.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for the record, the witness pointed to

18 the right side of the picture, and then made a movement right up from

19 there when he said where his cousin's house was.

20 Please proceed Mr. Hedaraly.


22 Q. Now in your statement, you said that your village, not your

23 hamlet but your village - and, once again, don't say the names of any

24 areas in your village - you said that your village was shelled heavily.

25 Now, did you see shells or did you hear shells? What's the basis

Page 2716

1 of your knowledge that your village was shelled heavily?

2 MR. HEDARALY: I'll phrase the question, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

3 That was a bad question on my part.

4 I saw Mr. Kehoe thought the same thing.

5 Q. In your statement, you said that your village was heavily

6 shelled. What was the basis for that assertion you made in your

7 statement?

8 A. Well, it was shelled, but one couldn't really count the shells.

9 One could only run right down into the basement to take shelter. It was

10 shelled.

11 Q. Could you hear the shells fall?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We didn't hear the last

13 part of the answer.

14 A. Well, of course, yes, I did hear. It was like thunder. It was

15 dark.


17 Q. And were there any ARSK soldiers in your hamlet, or in your

18 village, the day of that shelling, the 5th of August?

19 A. No. Well, that was after the shelling. That's when the troops

20 came.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, I am in fear that this is an

22 misunderstanding in you using the abbreviation "ARSK" soldiers. Could

23 you be more explicit?

24 MR. HEDARALY: I notice, too, Mr. President.

25 Q. Were there any soldiers of the Army of the Republika Srpska

Page 2717

1 Krajina in your hamlet or in your village on the day of the shelling, the

2 5th of August?

3 A. No, there were none. They had gone. They had fled.

4 Q. Were there any soldiers of the army of the Republika Srpska

5 Krajina in your hamlet, or in your village, in the days preceding the

6 5th of August?

7 A. Well, yes, of course. Before, there used to be.

8 Q. How long before are we talking about? I want you to focus on the

9 week before the shelling, not years before, not months before, just the

10 days before.

11 A. Yes, a week before, three or four days before. But they were

12 already making plans where they should flee, what route that they should

13 take as they fled. It was worse than the partizans.

14 Q. And this was something that happened three or four days before

15 the shelling?

16 A. Three or four days before, that is when they were making the

17 preparations. They were pulling out heavy weapons already. Well, I

18 don't know who would recall all that.

19 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I think that would be a good time for

20 a break.


22 Witness 69, we now have a break. After a break of approximately

23 a little bit over half an hour, we'll resume. Is that okay, as far as

24 you're concerned?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's okay.

Page 2718

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. Then we will have a break.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is convenient. But please not

3 let us take this too late. We want to get home as soon as possible,

4 don't we.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will have a break of 35 minutes.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine. That's what I like to hear.

7 --- Recess taken at 9.59 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.37 a.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to proceed?

10 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, Mr. President.



13 Q. Witness, I want now to direct your attention to when you went to

14 hide in the woods the first time on the 5th of August.

15 In your statement, you stated that before going into the woods,

16 you removed some family items. Can you tell the Court what it is that

17 you removed or that you hid?

18 A. Only two, only two; no more.

19 Q. Only two what, did you remove?

20 A. Well, I can tell you two pistols.

21 Q. And did these pistols belong to you?

22 A. Not so much to me as to my son.

23 Q. And where was your son at that time?

24 A. He wasn't there at the time. He had been killed.

25 Q. And when had he been killed?

Page 2719

1 A. In June 1992.

2 Q. Okay. And then later on in your statement, you said that when

3 you were hiding in the woods, you saw Croatian soldiers lighting the

4 house of Djuka on fire. Can you please describe for the Chamber what it

5 is that you saw?

6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to have to object again. I

7 don't think that's what it says in the statement. It says in the

8 statement: "I did not see the actual setting of fire."


10 MR. MISETIC: So I would object to the mischaracterisation of his

11 testimony.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was close.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly will rephrase his question and perhaps

14 read to you what was said in the statement and then ask for further

15 explanation.

16 Mr. Hedaraly.

17 MR. HEDARALY: Maybe my using of "set ablaze" and "light" is

18 different, but I will rephrase the --

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you read, then we have no --


21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2720

1 (redacted)


3 "I saw that her house suddenly went up in flames, together with

4 hayloft, so I assumed that the Croatian soldiers poured some gasoline on

5 it. I did not see the actual setting of fire. I saw a group of Croatian

6 soldiers but I could not specify their number."

7 Then you say: "I knew they were Croatian soldiers because there

8 was no other military presence in the area at that time."

9 Now can you provide some clarification as to what you actually

10 saw when the house went on fire, and please do not mention the name of

11 the -- the last name of the person whose house was on fire.

12 A. Yes. I saw, perhaps 600 metres away, I saw that it was on fire.

13 It was torched. They passed by a another house, not this one. It was

14 about 60 [as interpreted] metres away from me. They went there and

15 torched it.

16 Q. Okay.

17 MR. HEDARALY: Can we have 65 ter 4887, under seal, please.

18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I again apologise for interrupting,

19 but there is some confusion in the answer, whether it is 600 or 60

20 metres.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I heard 600, but could you please verify with the

22 witness, Mr. Hedaraly.


24 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, but can you just clarify for us what distance

25 was the house that you saw burning? Was it 60 metres or 600 metres?

Page 2721

1 A. 600.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. HEDARALY: If we can go back to 65 ter 4887.

4 That, I believe, Mr. Registrar in Zagreb, is the last picture

5 behind tab 8, having an ERN of 0543-3877.

6 Q. Now I want -- Witness, I want to focus on the night of the 5th

7 when you came back and that you saw the dead body of Ilija.

8 So, first of all, I want to ask you on that picture that is in

9 front of you, is that your house?

10 A. Yes, that's my house.

11 Q. Now, can you tell from this picture where you saw the body of

12 Ilija?

13 A. I can. Outside the veranda which you cannot see from the vine

14 branch --

15 Q. Okay. So what you're saying --

16 A. -- towards the cellar.

17 Q. So you cannot see from this picture where the body is because you

18 can only see the outside of the courtyard on this picture. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Correct, yes, yes.

21 MR. HEDARALY: Please, Your Honour, can I have this admitted in

22 into evidence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

24 MR. MISETIC: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

Page 2722

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P183, under

2 seal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P183, under seal, is admitted into evidence.

4 MR. HEDARALY: And if we can pull up 65 ter 4890, and that one

5 has to be under seal, as well, because the name of the witness is on it.

6 Mr. Registrar in Zagreb, this is the drawing that was provided to

7 you yesterday.

8 Q. Now, Witness, at the bottom of this picture, there is sort of a

9 door at the bottom centre of the sketch. Is that the gate that we saw on

10 the previous picture that is it in red?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you're on your feet.

12 MR. MISETIC: I must apologise, Your Honour, but I don't recall

13 seeing this, and it says it was done on the 12th of May. I'm advised by

14 my case manager that we didn't get a copy of this either, just for the

15 record.

16 MR. HEDARALY: It was e-mailed to counsel yesterday afternoon or

17 last night, to all counsel. It came out of the proofing session

18 yesterday, so I disclosed it to them right away.

19 MR. MISETIC: I will check my e-mail, Your Honour. I --

20 MR. HEDARALY: I'm pretty sure it's there.

21 MR. MISETIC: Okay.


23 MR. HEDARALY: May I proceed?

24 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed at this moment. But, of course,

25 what the consequences are if there would not have been any disclosure is

Page 2723

1 still to be seen.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. HEDARALY: The e-mail was sent at 6.22 p.m. last night.

4 MR. MISETIC: I was not available at that time, and I don't know

5 that our case manager was copied on it. But we can proceed, Your Honour,

6 and we'll deal with it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's proceed.


9 Q. Witness, can you confirm for us that the at bottom at what looks

10 like a door in the sketch at the bottom of the sketch is that -- the gate

11 that we was saw on the previous picture that was in red?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the place where you saw Ilija is what is marked there in

14 black with the line that says "Ilija," this is where you saw his body?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So just so that we understand correctly, the body was found

17 inside your courtyard that we saw in the previous picture. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness.

20 I have only one last series of questions for you, and it is

21 regarding the looting that you saw the Croatian soldiers perform over the

22 days following Operation Storm.

23 Now, when you --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, you asked the witness questions about

25 the sketch. What would you like to do with the sketch.

Page 2724

1 MR. HEDARALY: I would like to admit it into evidence, Your

2 Honour.

3 MR. MISETIC: No objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I see no objection from any of the Defence teams.

5 Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P184, under

7 seal.

8 JUDGE ORIE: P184, under seal, is admitted into evidence.

9 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Witness, in your statement, you talked about Croatian soldiers

11 coming and looting later on in your hamlet.

12 Now, did you -- was it always the same soldiers coming and

13 looting or were they different soldiers on different days?

14 A. There were different; they were not all the same. They came from

15 Split, Zadar, all of them neighbours.

16 Q. Did you recognise some of them?

17 A. I recognised them when I came closer and saw them, but then what?

18 Q. Where did you --

19 A. They --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked

21 to repeat the last bit.


23 Q. Could you please repeat the last portion of what you said.

24 A. I recognised these people, neighbours who lived in Zadar and

25 Split. They were -- when the man of the house is not there, they do

Page 2725

1 their business.

2 Q. I just want to clarify. So some of these soldiers that came used

3 to be your neighbours. Is that what you're telling us?

4 A. Neighbours, yes.

5 Q. Were all of them former neighbours of yours, or were there some

6 that you did not recognise?

7 A. Of course, there were some who were not. One of them was leading

8 the others to show them what is located where.

9 Q. And were they all wearing Croatian army uniforms, as far as you

10 could tell?

11 A. They were a mixed group. Some were; some were not.

12 Q. What about the specific incident that you mention in your

13 statement, about the four soldiers that looted the house of your best

14 man, first name Djoko, did you recognise those four soldiers?

15 A. I did not. I did not dare come that close. I did not recognise

16 them.

17 Q. And what about the ones that looted your own house, when you saw

18 them take things on your tractor, did you recognise those soldiers?

19 A. I did not. I did not. I have to tell the truth. I did not dare

20 come close.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. HEDARALY: That's all have I for the Prosecution, Your

23 Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

25 Witness 69, now Defence counsel will have an opportunity to put

Page 2726

1 questions to you, and the first is Mr. Misetic, who is Defence counsel

2 for Mr. Gotovina.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:


5 Q. Good morning, Witness 69.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, Please proceed.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Good morning, Witness 69.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. I'm referring to the -- to your witness statement of 1997; and in

11 your witness statement, you confirmed that your village was not exposed

12 to shelling on the 4th of August, 1995, which was the first day of

13 Operation Storm. Is that correct?

14 A. On the first day, there were operations -- I mean, on the second

15 day, the army had left already; and the next morning, the shelling

16 already started.

17 Q. Yes. But on the first day, there was no shelling in your village

18 and hamlet. Is that correct?

19 A. Not the first day.

20 Q. But, in your statement, you say that your family and your fellow

21 villagers left on that first day. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's true.

23 Q. Can you explain to the Court why your family and your fellow

24 villagers left on the first day?

25 A. Well, I looked at what the others were doing, and I took up and

Page 2727

1 left. Even sheep follow others to find better pastures.

2 Q. So you're saying that your fellow villagers left because other

3 people were leaving the area. Is that correct?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. That's true.

7 Q. Now, on the 5th of August, which is the second day, Milica and

8 Ilija appeared in your hamlet. Is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, may we go into private session for one

11 moment.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2728

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


23 Q. Ilija was around 40 years old. Is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Was Ilija a soldier of the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina?

Page 2729

1 A. No.

2 Q. And how do you know that?

3 A. He had never been in the army, he never joined any operations,

4 and he has a bad eye.

5 Q. When Milica and Ilija arrived at your house, did they have any

6 personal belongings with them?

7 A. That's something I don't know. They had a satchel. Only we had

8 a snack, a drink when the shelling started, and then we ran into the

9 basement.

10 Q. You indicated earlier that when you withdrew to the forest, you

11 took two pistols with you.

12 Do you know if Ilija --

13 MR. HEDARALY: I object, Your Honour. That mischaracterises

14 the -- he said that he hid two pistols, not that he took them with him.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, you have to take them if you want to hide

16 them.

17 MR. HEDARALY: But he is suggesting that he took them to the

18 woods.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is a suggestion which --

20 MR. MISETIC: That was my understanding, but I can clarify.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you please clarify.


23 Q. Witness, when you testified earlier about hiding two pistols,

24 where did you hide the pistols?

25 A. I threw them into the smoking house. That is it where the meat

Page 2730

1 is cured, and that's where they remained. I just threw them in there and

2 fled.

3 Q. Do you know if Ilija had any weapons when he arrived at your

4 house?

5 A. No. He didn't have anything. He was unarmed.

6 Q. In your statement, you say that: "Milka and Ilija stepped out

7 from the civilian reclusive convoy and came to seek the refuge at my

8 place." What civilian reclusive convoy are you referring to?

9 A. Well, the whole column, they were heading back. They wanted to

10 go back home because they figured out that was the only thing they could

11 do, go back home. That's where they -- that's how they ended up at my

12 place and that's where they died, and there can be no politics about

13 that.

14 Q. This civilian reclusive convoy, was it moving through your

15 hamlet?

16 A. No, no. They were heading through Padjene.

17 Q. And where was the convoy going, if you know?

18 A. Well, through Serb, then on to Drvar, and then further on through

19 Strlija [phoen] Petrovac.

20 Q. Were there also soldiers of the Army of the Republika Srpska

21 Krajina travelling in that convoy?

22 A. Yes, yes. Of course, there were.

23 Q. Do you know if there were tanks of the Army of the Republika

24 Srpska Krajina travelling in that convoy?

25 A. That I don't know. That I really don't know, because the road

Page 2731

1 that leads through Padjene was three kilometres away, and there were two

2 ends to this.

3 Q. Okay.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the parties, whenever this is an

5 question about the presence of soldiers, always to explore whether this

6 was organised presence or whether it was one soldier not on duty among

7 civilians, or together with other soldiers not from their own units, et

8 cetera. That would certainly assist the Chamber in better understanding

9 some of the issues at stake in this trial.

10 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Witness 69 --

12 A. Well, no, there was no organisation there whatsoever. People

13 were just fleeing any which way they could. That was the only thing to

14 do. When you heard the thunder, everyone was just afraid.

15 Q. I believe what the Judge was asking you, with respect to the army

16 being part of this convoy, was the army leaving in an organised manner as

17 part of this convoy?

18 JUDGE ORIE: That certainly was not what I intended to ask the

19 witness.

20 You earlier said that, of course, there were soldiers in the

21 convoy. Could you tell us were these soldiers as part of a military

22 unit, or were these soldiers just as individuals fleeing for their

23 safety, or what were --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were individuals, individuals

25 who just happened to be there, and they were just fleeing.

Page 2732

1 JUDGE ORIE: And were they with other soldiers from their units?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, definitely not. It was every

3 man for himself. Everybody as going wherever they wanted.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us how you observed that there

5 were soldiers? Did you see them or did you ask about the presence of

6 soldiers in the convoy?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I couldn't see them. They

8 were three kilometres away, but everybody was trying to flee.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So you are assuming that there must have been

10 individual soldiers among those who were in the convoy. Is that

11 correctly understood?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. Some remained;

13 some got killed, various fates.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed Mr. Misetic.

15 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I need to go into private

16 session again.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2733











11 Pages 2733-2746 redacted. Private session.















Page 2747

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, just to inform you that we ended our

4 last session in private session. I should have gone into open session

5 when we discussed with the witness how much time we would need for the

6 break.

7 We are now in open session, again.

8 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness 69, in your statement, you say that a Croatian soldier

10 was forcing Dmitar to go with him.

11 Was the Croatian --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was the Croatian soldier asking -- was the Croatian soldier

14 asking Dmitar to show him directions?

15 A. No, I don't know that. I wouldn't know that. That was around

16 the corner. I couldn't see it.

17 Q. You also indicate that when - let me just make sure - when the

18 Croatian soldier took Dmitar behind his house, you heard a burst of

19 automatic fire.

20 I know it's difficult, 13 years later, but can you give us an

21 approximation of how many rounds "a burst" is?

22 Let me rephrase the question. How many rounds was the burst on

23 the day that you heard it?

24 A. Well, who could answer that, who could possibly know that, or who

25 could possibly remember? It's been 13 years. I mean, how could you

Page 2748

1 count them one by one? There was shooting all around.

2 Q. Okay.

3 [Defence counsel confer]


5 Q. You said: "There was shooting all around." When you refer to

6 this burst of automatic fire, were you saying that this burst came from

7 the soldier who took Dmitar behind the house, or that you just heard

8 gun-fire generally in the area?

9 A. Gun-fire. Of course, I couldn't even see it.

10 Q. Now, you said that later that afternoon, you went up --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, let's try to clarify the issue.

12 Witness 69, we do understand that you didn't see the gun-fire.

13 Now, the burst of automatic fire, was that immediately after the Croatian

14 soldier took Dmitar behind the house?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was right away; but whether

16 the shooting was at him or at somebody else, what do I know? I didn't

17 see it with my own eyes. I could only hear, and I was running.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear it shortly after the Croatian soldier

19 had left with Dmitar behind the house, or was it within 30 seconds, or

20 was it within five minutes, or was within 30 minutes, half an hour?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A minute later, half a minute

22 later, very quickly. Whether he was shooting at him or next to him, what

23 do I know?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what you heard, would the sound you

25 heard, would that be compatible with a short distance, similar to Dmitar

Page 2749

1 and the Croatian soldier behind the house, or was it from farther away?

2 What came into your mind that you heard it, that it was from that

3 location or from any other location, even if you did not see it, but from

4 what you heard?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think from a distance, but who

6 could possibly judge that? It's like it was half a kilometre away, when,

7 in fact, it was 50 metres.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You say: "In fact, it was 50 metres," but you did

9 not see it. When you heard it --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't see it. I cannot

11 tell you what did not happen.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But when you heard it, did it come into your

13 mind that the burst of fire came approximately from where the two had

14 left behind the house, or did it come into your mind that it came from

15 another location?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nothing came to my mind

17 except run, my legs, run. I don't think I was thinking at that time.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

19 MR. MISETIC: Just for the court's notification, I don't think

20 it's appropriate with this witness, but I believe the Prosecution and/or

21 the Defence will tender the autopsy report here, which may be relevant to

22 this issue because there is one gunshot wound here, and we will discuss

23 it later about the burst of gun-fire versus the one entry wound.

24 MR. HEDARALY: That's correct. We were not planning on

25 introducing these autopsy reports through this witness, but at some point

Page 2750

1 we will lead it through a --

2 JUDGE ORIE: But would it not be helpful for the Chamber to

3 receive such an autopsy report as soon as possible whenever a witness

4 testifies about such an event, so that we can see to what extent there

5 is -- whether this report is compatible or incompatible with what the

6 witness testifies? I mean, why wait?

7 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, that's noted for the future cases

8 when we will have a witness about killings, and we will try to get those

9 document to the Chamber as soon as possible.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We don't have to be fed it perhaps in a

11 similar way as a jury is fed with some pieces of information. We'll try

12 to consider all the evidence as much as possible in the context.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

14 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, Witness 69, you say in your statement that you ran 500 to

16 1.000 metres up the hill. From that position, you did not actually see

17 how the fire at Djurdjija's house started, did you?

18 A. How could I possible see? I didn't.

19 Q. And while you were in the forest, you encountered other people

20 who were hiding in that forest as well, is that correct, without

21 mentioning their names?

22 A. That's when I went further away. It was not on the same day. I

23 ran into those people 30 hours or 13 hours --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter is not

25 clear what the witness meant.

Page 2751

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 MR. MISETIC: May we go into private session, again, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2752

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


18 Q. Witness 69, we need to clarify one thing in the transcript, so

19 I'm going to ask to you repeat it again.

20 In one of your answers, I asked -- in one of my questions, I

21 asked you whether you encountered other people who were hiding in that

22 forest as well.

23 You answered: "That's when I went further away. It was not on

24 the same day. I ran into those people" 30 hours or 13 hours?

25 Can you clarify what your answer was? Is it 30 hours later or

Page 2753

1 134 hours later?

2 A. Thirty hours.

3 Q. Thank you for that.

4 Now, in your statement, you say that you returned from the forest

5 to your home on the 11th or 12th of August, and you noticed that your

6 house was in disorder.

7 Is it fair to say that your house, on that date, had been

8 searched but had not been looted?

9 A. It wasn't looted. There was some pictures shattered, all sorts

10 of objects and goods thrown in a heap.

11 Q. And it wasn't until around the 15th of August that you started

12 seeing people looting your house. Is that correct?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. And you were asked --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were asked some questions earlier about who these people

17 were. When these people arrived your hamlet, did they arrive in civilian

18 cars?

19 A. Well, they came in civilian cars. All of them were neighbours.

20 Anyone can put on a uniform.

21 Q. Now, you indicated, I believe in your testimony earlier, you said

22 these were your neighbours who were coming from Zadar. Is that correct?

23 Am I correctly characterising your testimony?

24 A. Yes, from Zadar, from Split, from Sibenik.

25 Q. These people, when they would loot in your hamlet, would they

Page 2754

1 take the things back to Zadar and Split and Sibenik, or were they moving

2 back into the area and keeping these things?

3 A. Of course.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. For the most part, it was taken further away and hidden in

6 houses. I couldn't go to Zadar and see for myself the barrels and all

7 that.

8 Q. At some point in time, in late August, you arrived at the UN camp

9 in Knin. Do you recall telling members of UN CIVPOL about the body that

10 you had discovered of Ilija in your home?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. I explained it to them.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 65 ter 4251.

16 The witness will not have a copy of this in Zagreb,

17 Mr. Registrar.

18 If necessary, we will tender it from the bar table, but this is

19 the UN CIVPOL report from September that encompasses this incident.

20 For the record, Your Honour, again, we ask that this be marked

21 and tendered into evidence from the bar table. It is a report from

22 UN CIVPOL, sector chief, Jan Elleby, to the chief of policija, which is

23 the MUP, Mr. Cetina, in Zadar, dated 19 September 1995.

24 MR. HEDARALY: No objection. Mr. Elleby will testify, so there

25 is no objections to that document.

Page 2755

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could --

2 MR. MISETIC: Maybe if I this would could be admitted under seal,

3 as it has the names of some of the victims, so just that it is not linked

4 with that witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D179, under

7 seal.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


10 Q. Witness 69, I was remiss in not asking you one additional

11 question. This looting that you saw, did you report it either to

12 UN CIVPOL or to the Croatian police?

13 A. No way. To whom could I possibly report it? It was only later

14 when I went to the UNPROFOR. Who was I supposed to report to?

15 Q. At some point, while you were in the UN camp, a Dr. Lang came to

16 the camp as an emissary of President Tudjman. Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes, I do remember.

18 Q. Do you recall what Dr. Lang said to the civilian population that

19 was in the UN camp?

20 A. He was talking nicely. He said those who will stay can stay and

21 those who don't want to don't have to. But you know what people are

22 like. People were afraid. They were afraid of getting killed. There

23 was also the bishop from Sibenik.

24 Q. Do you recall what the bishop from Sibenik said to the people in

25 the camp?

Page 2756

1 A. Well, there were a lot of people there, a crowd. Some people

2 asked for the floor and they allowed them to speak, and the people asked,

3 "Are we all equal before God?" He couldn't answer that, except to say,

4 "Yes." But why, then, would one person wants to kill another? That's

5 the way it was. That's how it was, my brother. Who can remember all the

6 details? It's all gone into oblivion.

7 Q. You, nevertheless, decided to leave Croatia in September 1995.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. That's correct. For a family reunion, because everyone was gone.

10 Some people were killed, some people came to a bad end. I don't know. I

11 don't know how I was supposed to stay alone. It would have been very,

12 very inconvenient.

13 MR. MISETIC: May we go into private session.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2757











11 Pages 2757-2758 redacted. Private session.















Page 2759

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 2760

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: This is an disruption in the videolink. For this

3 reason, we'll have a very short break and we'll continue immediately

4 after the videolink has been restored, and then to finish without another

5 break.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Since the videolink has been restored, could I check

9 with you, Mr. Registrar at the location of the videolink, whether you can

10 see, whether you can hear us.

11 Yes. Then it's up to you, Mr. Hedaraly, to put further questions

12 to the witness.

13 MR. HEDARALY: I just have one point of clarification.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

15 Q. Witness, this is about a response to a question put to you by

16 Mr. Misetic, at transcript page 43, line 12 through 15.

17 The question put to you was: "With respect to the army barracks

18 at Padjene, do you know if any soldiers of the Republika Srpska Krajina

19 evacuated from that location on the 5th of August?

20 Then you answered: "Yes, they did."

21 My only point of clarification for you is: Did you know that

22 that was the date at which those soldiers had evacuated, or did you just

23 know that they had evacuated in general?

24 A. Well, let me tell you, they left immediately on the 5th. By that

25 time, they were all gone from Padjene.

Page 2761

1 Q. You just said they were all gone by the 5th. So did they leave

2 on the 5th, or before, or do you have any information as to when they

3 left?

4 A. Well, I don't know. It was -- it all happened during that night;

5 and on the 5th, they were all gone. Well, nobody stayed; only the

6 locals. But most of them were -- were gone. Only those who were infirm,

7 who were old, they remained. I was called by them to go, too; but I

8 didn't want to go. They were asking me, "Come with us." There was even

9 a car, but why should I go, where should I go?

10 Q. And who was telling you to go with them?

11 A. Well, neighbours. They tried to convince me that I should go and

12 so did my wife. But I said, Where should I go? Why I would leave my

13 home? Why would I leave my house? But at one point, the time came where

14 I really had to go, or I had to leave it.

15 MR. HEDARALY: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 69, I have a few questions for you.

20 You told us earlier that the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina

21 soldiers were preparing for leaving. You said it was three or four days

22 before the shelling happened. They were making their preparations, you

23 said. Then you said: "They were pulling out heavy weapons already."

24 Could you tell us where these heavy weapons were stationed that

25 were pulled out, if you know.

Page 2762

1 A. I don't know. I don't know where it was put, where it was

2 stored. All I know is that it left. It left in a space of two days in

3 this general ruckus.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now were there any heavy weapons in your

5 hamlet.

6 A. No, not at my place. There were no woods there.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, there may be some confusion or

8 misunderstanding.

9 I asked you whether there were any heavy weapons, heavy weaponry

10 in your hamlet just before the shelling started.

11 A. About half a day before and up to half the night, there were some

12 trucks up there in the woods between the two mountains. That's where

13 they were, in those woods, and then they left. But two or three trucks

14 remained there because there were not enough drivers.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And these were trucks belonging to the Army of the

16 Republika Srpska Krajina?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes. Correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, that was at what distance

19 approximately from your hamlet? How much time would it take to you walk

20 to where they were?

21 A. There's one kilometre, less than a kilometre.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "less than a kilometre," could it be half

23 a kilometre or close to a kilometre?

24 A. Well, I didn't measure it. I didn't measure it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I asked you about your hamlet. What

Page 2763

1 about your village, were you aware of any heavy weaponry in the village?

2 A. No, no. There were no weapons, no.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I move to another subject.

4 You told us about the house of your neighbour Djurdjija that was

5 burning, and you said: "I saw that her house suddenly went up in flame,

6 together with hayloft."

7 Now, could you tell us, this hayloft - I take it that is the same

8 as a haystack, but I'm not a native English speaker - now what was the

9 distance between the house and the haystack that burned? Could you tell

10 us was it five metres from the house, was it 50 metres from the house?

11 What is the distance between the haystack and the house?

12 A. About 300 metres from my house. That's a house that is right by

13 the side of the road. It's a detached house. Yes, right there by the

14 side of the road.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now you answer the question about the distance or at

16 least your answer is about the distance between your house and the house

17 of your neighbour.

18 What I would like to know specifically was what was the distance?

19 How many metres was the haystack from the house of your neighbour.

20 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. Tieger just draw my attention that a hayloft

21 apparently is the place with where the hay is stored, to be a separate

22 structure, not just the haystack, for example, outside. Just to clarify.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least that's good to know. I was in some

24 doubt whether I understood the English sufficiently. Let's not confuse

25 the witness.

Page 2764

1 Now, in your statement you say that: "The house went up in

2 flame, together with hayloft."

3 Now was there a distance between the house and where the hay was

4 stored?

5 A. Between the hay and the house, that's about ten metres. Well,

6 you know how you store hay and what houses used for residential purposes

7 look like, and both were set on fire.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did they start burning at the same time, or

9 was there a time interval; that is to say, that one started burning after

10 three, four, or five minutes, or did they start burning at the same time?

11 A. Well, it's the same time. There is no difference. I'm looking

12 from a vantage point. It's about 500 metres as the crow flies.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And you saw the house and the hayloft in flames,

14 starting to be in flames at the same time?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have no further questions for you.

17 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need to put further

18 questions to the witness.

19 MR. MISETIC: Yes, if I can just full up with a few question,

20 Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Witness 69, a few more questions to you by

22 Mr. Misetic.

23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

24 Q. Witness 69, early in your testimony at page 16, lines 9 through

25 13, you said: "I don't know how many shells hit our area, but I can tell

Page 2765

1 you that the lower part of the village that is on the other side of the

2 railway track, that is where most of the shells fell.

3 I take it from this answer, first, let me establish that there is

4 a railway that divides your village. Is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. How far is your house from that railway track?

7 A. Three kilometres.

8 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Nothing further.

9 JUDGE ORIE: One further question for you, then, Witness 69, and

10 it most likely will be the last one.

11 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

12 JUDGE ORIE: When you said that you do not know how many shells

13 hit your area, but the lower part of the village, on the other side of

14 the railway track, that is where most of the shells fell, what would we

15 find there, the lower, other side of the railway track? Was it AN

16 industrial area? Could you tell us what was hit by those shells on the

17 lower part of the village?

18 A. No, no. There's no barracks, there are no depots, nothing.

19 It's just a village.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean by "just a village," there were people

21 living in their houses?

22 A. Of course. They lived there, yes.


24 A. But nobody got killed. Most of them fled. But even those that

25 remained there, they were not killed.

Page 2766

1 JUDGE ORIE: There were no industrial complexes in that part of

2 the village?

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted) tanks; but it didn't catch fire or

5 anything. The army had it, but they left.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say that the storage of fuel and oil

7 was an army storage of fuel an oil; although, the army had left. Is that

8 what your testimony is?

9 A. Those were large tanks, large tanks holding fuel. I don't know

10 what kind of fuel. Aeroplane fuel, I don't know. All of it was empty,

11 there was nothing there, the buildings are being torn down. Everything

12 is just being destroyed.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You said the army had it. Could you tell me how did

14 you know that these tanks, this storage of fuel and oil, was army fuel

15 and oil?

16 A. Well, the army had it, and a neighbour of mine worked on --

17 worked the engine that shunted those cars. That was just a few

18 kilometres away from where I was, so how could I not know it?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

20 Again, last questions by the Bench triggered any need.

21 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness 69, this concludes your testimony. I

23 would like to thank you very much for coming and for answering the

24 questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench. I hope

25 that you'll be back home in time and that it did not, was not too much a

Page 2767

1 burden for you to come to the place of the videolink.

2 Thank you very much.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're quite welcome.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then the videolink is not needed anymore. Thank you

5 very much at the other side of the line, Mr. Registrar, for your

6 assistance.

7 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

8 JUDGE ORIE: We now conclude the videolink, and we'll move on in

9 The Hague.

10 I'd like to turn into private session.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2768











11 Pages 2768-2770 redacted. Private session.















Page 2771

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same

8 courtroom, number II.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.08 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of May,

11 2008, at 9.00 a.m.