Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2772

1 Wednesday, 14 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning

8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, Ivan Cermak, and Mladen Markac.

10 JUDGE ORIE: First, I would like to make a brief correction. I

11 think it was approximately ten days ago that I said for the first time in

12 seven years I had forgotten to ask for the case to be called, and it

13 seemed to be a bad habit to start, because yesterday I did the same.

14 Before on Tuesday, the 13th of May, 2008, we heard the testimony of

15 Witness 69 through videolink. It's now on the record that that was a

16 hearing in this case which was just called by Madam Registrar.

17 Then the Chamber was informally informed that, where the Cermak

18 and Markac Defence yesterday expressed as their position in Court that

19 they did not object to the protective measures sought for Witness 54,

20 that the Gotovina Defence also did not oppose protective measures as

21 sought. If you'd like to add anything to that, because we have had

22 earlier occasions where you did not oppose protective measures, although

23 did you not agree with the reasons provided by the Prosecution.

24 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour. I spoke to Mr. Tieger and I spoke

25 to your court personnel, and we voice no objection or no addendum to

Page 2773

1 Mr. Hedaraly's submission.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber -- yes, Mr. Hedaraly.

3 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just to complete the

4 record, I notice that my submission yesterday was lacking. This would be

5 the seventh motion for [indiscernible] protective measures. The legal

6 and factual grounds to the extent applicable would be the ones that were

7 in the previous motions. The individual circumstances of the witness are

8 as in the declaration, and the expected testimony is as assigned in the

9 filing for the 92 ter submission, filed on 27 of March, just to complete

10 the submission.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say that it is the complete package

13 on which you base your application for protective measures. Of course,

14 the Chamber has considered being informed about the position of Gotovina

15 Defence, and the Chamber has decided that protective measures for

16 Witness 54, as requested; that is, pseudonym and face distortion, are

17 granted. Reasons to follow.

18 Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to call your next witness, which is

19 Witness 54.

20 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, we are, Your Honour.


22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness 54. Do you hear me in a

24 language you understand?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

Page 2774

1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 54, we call you not by your own name, but we

2 call you Witness 54 because the Chamber has decided to grant the

3 protective measures as requested. That means that your name will not be

4 used, we'll call you Witness 54, and that your face cannot be seen by the

5 outside world.

6 Witness 54, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

7 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

8 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

9 text is handed out to you by the usher. I'd like to invite you to make

10 that solemn declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness 54. Please be seated.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.

18 MR. HEDARALY: As soon as we're ready, we can move into open

19 session.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session, Mr. Hedaraly.

21 MR. HEDARALY: Okay, perfect.

22 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

23 Q. Good morning, Witness.

24 MR. HEDARALY: Can I please have 65 ter number 4891 and not have

25 that published outside the courtroom.

Page 2775

1 Q. Witness, can you please take a look at the screen and just

2 confirm whether these are your personal details, and don't read it out.

3 Just confirm that these are, indeed, your details.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you can zoom in a bit so that the witness

5 would even read it out glasses.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. Everything is correct.

7 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I'd like to have 65 ter 4891 into

8 evidence, under seal.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is would become Exhibit P185,

11 under seal.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. P185 is now admitted into evidence.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. HEDARALY: Can we have now 65 ter number 4795 pulled up, and,

15 once again, not have that published outside the courtroom.

16 Q. Witness, do you recall being interviewed by representatives of

17 the Office of the Prosecutor on 2 July 1996, and providing a written

18 statement to them on that day?

19 A. I remember.

20 Q. Did you have a chance to review that statement of July 1996

21 earlier this week?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And based on your review of that statement, did it accurately

24 reflect what you said to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1996?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2776

1 Q. And the contents of that statement, as you remember when you

2 reviewed it earlier this week, were they true to the best of your

3 knowledge and recollection?

4 A. That's it, although I gave this statement 11 years later; but I

5 think everything is correct.

6 Q. And if you look on the screen now, that's your significance at

7 the bottom right of the English version of that statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if you were asked the same questions --

10 A. The signature? Yes, yes, that's my signature.

11 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today that you were

12 asked in July 1996, would you give the same answers?

13 A. Well, there's no reason to change anything. That's how I

14 remember these events.

15 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, at this time, I would like to have

16 this document be admitted into evidence, under seal, pursuant to Rule

17 92 ter.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Number P186, under seal, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections.

21 MR. MISETIC: No objection, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P186 is admitted, under seal, as was 185 admitted,

23 under seal.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. HEDARALY: Can we have 65 ter number 4796, also not to be

Page 2777

1 published outside the courtroom.

2 Q. And, Witness, in the meantime, if I may ask you, do you recall

3 providing a supplemental statement to representatives of the Office of

4 the Prosecutor on 2 April 2007?

5 A. Well, the 2nd April, yes, yes.

6 Q. And did you have a chance to review this supplemental -- go

7 ahead.

8 A. Yes, that's it. I was given that statement to read as well.

9 Q. Earlier this week, you were given that statement to read.

10 Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did it accurately reflect what you said to the Office of the

13 Prosecutor in April 2007?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the contents of that supplemental statement are true to the

16 best of your knowledge and recollection?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, finally, if you were asked the same questions today that you

19 were asked in 2007, would you give the same answers?

20 A. I think I would. I have no other answers.

21 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honours, at this time, I would like to have

22 65 ter 4796 admitted into evidence, pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number?

24 THE REGISTRAR: P187, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal.

Page 2778

1 Any objections.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal, yes.

3 MR. MISETIC: No objection.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And I see nodding no two times for the other Defence

5 teams. That means that P187 is admitted, under seal.

6 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, I would like to read out a short

7 summary of the evidence of the witness contained in his two statements.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is the witness aware of this procedure?


10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hedaraly will now read a summary of what

11 is in your written statements, and then may ask further questions to you,

12 Witness 54.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. HEDARALY: And I believe a copy was provided to the

15 interpreters yesterday.

16 Witness 54 had lived in Knin for 30 years before Operation Storm.

17 When the shelling of Knin started on 4 August 1995, he sought shelter

18 with his family downstairs and then later into the basement of a nearby

19 hotel. On that day, he saw three houses in the vicinity of that hotel

20 that had been hit by shells.

21 Later that day, in the late afternoon, he decided to take his

22 family to his native village, located about ten to 15 kilometres north of

23 Knin, expecting to come back to Knin. After spending the night in this

24 village, on the following morning, people from the villages of Zagrovic,

25 Plavno, and Raljevac came by and told him that their villages were being

Page 2779

1 shelled. Realising that these villages were entirely civilian and that

2 they were still being targeted, he had to escape.

3 They joined the civilian convoy leading to Bosnia. At one point,

4 while they stopped to take a break, after the city of Martin Brod, as the

5 road was going uphill, Witness 54 heard bombs exploding behind from the

6 road. People who came up the road later said that the road was being

7 shelled, so they decided to leave. Later on, on the road again close to

8 Petrovac in Bosnia, he saw and heard two aeroplanes and the sound of

9 bombs exploding nearby.

10 He and others in the convoy got out of their car, ran out, and

11 were lying on the ground. When the Witness 54 looked up, he saw that

12 vehicles ahead of him had been hit and were burning, including one truck.

13 As he returned to his car and continued driving, Witness 54 saw that four

14 or five cars were burning, and had to drive off the road to go around

15 these burning cars.

16 This concludes my summary, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

18 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you. Your Honours, I first just want to ask

19 a question to correct a translation error that was noted by the witness.

20 Q. Witness, in the --

21 MR. HEDARALY: If we can have the witness statement, P186, on

22 page 2, the second paragraph?

23 Q. Witness, in your witness statement, you stated that you were

24 mobilised in the Yugoslav National Army up until the time when it left

25 Croatia, until the time that the JNA left Croatia. Is that correct?

Page 2780

1 A. Yes, that's correct. It was in February 1992 when I demobed.

2 Q. I believe that B/C/S translation had "until I left Croatia."

3 That's why I wanted to clarify that.

4 In your next paragraph in your statement, the third paragraph --

5 A. No, no. I left the army. I demobilised and that must have been

6 a mistake, a misunderstanding. In February 1992, I demobed, but I stayed

7 in town and I continued to work and to live there.

8 Q. In the third paragraph of your statement, you said that: "In the

9 days before Knin was attacked, we could see refugees coming from the

10 villages near the mountain Dinara who were escaping shelling."

11 My question for you is the following: How did you know that

12 these refugees were escaping shelling?

13 A. Well, you could hear it. That's below the Dinara Mountains, and

14 the detonations were loud. Overlooking Knin, there is a military target

15 range, and can you hear it even today when these areas are cleared and

16 the remaining weaponry is removed. At that time, you could hear very

17 well the shelling of those villages in that area close to Knin.

18 Q. Okay. My question was: How did you know that these specific

19 refugees were escapes shelling? Was it just based on the sound of the

20 shelling, or did you have any other reason to know that these refugees

21 were specifically escaping that shelling that you just referenced?

22 A. Those refugees came to Knin. They were relatives of my

23 neighbours, because my neighbours were locals of -- were born in those

24 villages. So their relatives, the refugees, came to Knin and told us

25 that Strmica, Golubici, and other villages just below mountain Dinara

Page 2781

1 were being shelled.

2 MR. HEDARALY: If we can have 65 ter 4894 [sic], and, once again,

3 I would ask that not to be published outside the courtroom.

4 Q. Witness, on the screen shortly, you will see a photo of Knin

5 taken from the viewpoint of the castle that you had marked on Monday. In

6 a few seconds, it is going to appear. I just want you to confirm that

7 you made that marking.

8 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry. It's 4895, Madam Registrar. I

9 apologise.

10 Q. And can you confirm that that it is you that made that marking on

11 the bottom right, saying "moje kuca," and can you tell the Court what

12 that represents?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I can. That's my house.

14 Q. And that is on the main street in Knin?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, if we could have that admitted into

17 evidence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be P188.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No observations, therefore, P188 is admitted, under

21 seal.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. HEDARALY: Now, Madam Registrar, if we could have 4894,

24 please.

25 Your Honours, this is two photos that the witness has annotated

Page 2782

1 with different buildings marked, if we could have that not published as

2 well.

3 The idea, initially, to have the house on a separate picture was

4 to have the house under seal, and not these other pictures; but I just

5 realised this morning that the witness has signed his name to the bottom

6 of it, so we will have to, as well, have that not published outside the

7 courtroom.

8 We have provided hard copies all to the Defence, and Mr. Usher

9 has some hard copies for the Bench, if they want, to have the pictures in

10 full size, if they are interested. There are various locations on them

11 that are marked.

12 Madam Registrar, could we please move to page 2 of this document,

13 please.

14 Actually, Your Honour, our technical people were very efficient,

15 and they have removed the name of the witness from this -- from this

16 document, so it can be shown outside the courtroom.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is valid for the second page, not for the

18 first one. At least, I see that on the second page, the name of the

19 witness does not appear. On the first page, however, it does.

20 MR. HEDARALY: Okay. For the second, and in the third page as

21 well, I believe does not have the name of the witness.

22 If we can turn to the third page, and if we can go back to page

23 2, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I see that you have another version of --

25 MR. HEDARALY: It is a different picture, Your Honours. It's a

Page 2783

1 little bit shifted towards the left. So both pictures, together, will

2 provide the most accurate picture. We'll take them one at a time.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I do see that from the first page and

4 that, in that respect, it's not the same as we find on our hard copies.

5 You have apparently have redacted the first pages, or is that right?

6 Yes.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It appears that they're not exactly the same,

9 because on our hard copies, the ERN number which we find just on the top

10 on the screen does not appear anymore, and the name of the witness

11 doesn't appear anymore as well.

12 I suggest that, since this does not relate to any data

13 identifying the witness, that we use the copies we find on the screen and

14 not the versions we find on our hard copies. Then I think there is -- I

15 don't know what you're line of questioning will be, but then there's no

16 needed to admit them, under seal, at a later stage.

17 MR. HEDARALY: There is not, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.


20 Q. Witness, this is -- on the screen now, you have the same photo

21 that we had just shown you with your house. This one does not have a

22 notation of your house. So please be very careful, when describing that

23 picture, not to mention where your house is on this photograph.

24 Can you please --

25 A. All right.

Page 2784

1 Q. In your statement, you said that you sought shelter in the

2 basement of a hotel called Hotel Dinara. Can you confirm that that is

3 letter "A" on the picture you have in front of you?

4 A. Yes, that's it.

5 Q. And in your statement, you also refer to three houses that were

6 damaged by shells in that vicinity. These were the houses of Sime Dujic,

7 Jandre Prijic, and Joko Zegovic. I apologise for my mispronunciation.

8 Can you please identify for the Court where these are on the

9 pictures, how you have labelled them?

10 A. All right. This is the house of Sime Dujic, and this here is the

11 house of Prijic, and there one here --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do we want them to be marked, or is it enough if the

13 witness says -- Mr. Usher, I think what Mr. Hedaraly was seeking --

14 What letters did you give to the houses that were damaged?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The houses were marked with "B."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. All three of them with "B."

17 Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

18 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.

19 Q. And in your statement, you also say that the hotel was located

20 close to the radio and television station building. Can you confirm that

21 you have marked that as "C" on this picture?

22 A. Yes. That is the old high school building.

23 Q. But it was used as the -- as a radio and television station in

24 August 1995. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct. Radio and television. This was on the

Page 2785

1 premises of the old high school; and then, for a while, it was also the

2 seat of the command, or, rather, this is where the government of Krajina

3 was seated. That was in the latter period.

4 Q. And that was referred to as the Parliament, as well. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, that would be it. We gave it different names.

7 Q. And then, in your statement, you also mention that the army HQ

8 was maybe two buildings behind Sime's house. Can you tell the Court by

9 which letter you have identified the army headquarters on that picture?

10 A. Let me see. Sime's house, right. That is "D." That was

11 marked -- that's marked with "D," the house.

12 Q. Okay. And you have also marked a building with the letter "E,"

13 that you referred to as being the JNA club. Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, JNA club.

15 Q. Can you tell the Court what the JNA club was?

16 A. This was a bowling alley that belonged to the army, and also a

17 hall, and there was a restaurant. So it was a clubhouse. There was also

18 an outdoor cafe.

19 Q. Was it used by the military in August of 1995?

20 A. This was where the reserve police of the army was. They also had

21 their mess hall there. So the people who were there, that is where they

22 had their meals.

23 Q. Okay. Then a little higher on the map, you have marked as letter

24 "G" the Tvik factory?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2786

1 Q. Can you please tell the Court what the Tvik factory was

2 producing?

3 A. It was producing screws mainly. That is what it is was known

4 for, and this was the name denoted that was the factory of screws in

5 Knin. All kinds of different screws of different sizes, and that is what

6 it is still producing today.

7 Q. And as far as you know, was this factory used to produce any

8 military materials?

9 A. I did not go there. There were rumours, but I cannot really

10 confirm. There were rumours that they were trying to manufacture

11 something, but it wasn't really necessary because there was a lot of

12 ammunition in Golubici, in reserve. There was a huge depot close to

13 Knin.

14 Q. And when you say, "there were rumours that they were trying to

15 manufacture something," what are you referring to? Weapons or

16 ammunition?

17 A. Yes. Allegedly, they were supposed to manufacture shells there.

18 Whether this was true or not, I cannot really confirm because I'm not

19 sure.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. HEDARALY: If we can move then a little to the left.

22 Q. What you have as letter "H" which you have identified as the

23 Agroprerada depots. Can you tell the Court what that was used for --

24 what that was in 1995?

25 A. This was mainly the mill, and this is where cattle feed was

Page 2787

1 produced. So the mill and the bakery was there. This was part of

2 Agroprerada.

3 Q. When you're talking about the bakery, what are you referring to

4 exactly?

5 A. The production of bread.

6 Q. Was that a -- strike that.

7 To your knowledge, was there any military materials stored in

8 these depots?

9 A. No, certainly not.

10 Q. And then up, we have another factory that you have labelled as

11 letter "N" which is the Kninjanka factory. Can you tell the Court what

12 that factory was producing?

13 A. That factory was a clothes factory. It produced clothes, mainly

14 pants, trousers. Most of their output was exported. They imported

15 material or fabrics from Germany, then they made pants, and then returned

16 them or exported them back to Germany. This was done because labour was

17 cheap, labour costs. Of course, some of that, some of what was

18 manufactured there, was also kept for our use, for trade within the

19 country.

20 Q. And to your knowledge, was that factory used to produce any

21 weapons or ammunition or anything of military utility?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, if you give examples -- it is a

23 clothes factory, then to ask whether it is ammunition, rather than say

24 uniforms, isn't it, that comes close. So, if you give examples, then

25 please give relevant examples or refrain from giving examples.

Page 2788

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. HEDARALY: Let me rephrase my question.

3 Q. To your knowledge, was this factory used to produce anything of

4 military utility?

5 A. Allegedly, they produced some camouflage uniforms, but there

6 wasn't enough money. So there wasn't much production, but also there

7 wasn't a lot of army personnel there. So it wasn't really necessary to

8 produce that. But, also, that was not the goal, because everyone was

9 expecting forever that there would be agreement and that, finally, there

10 would be peace.

11 Q. And, finally, on this picture, on the very left, you have the

12 letter "O" depicting a building. Can you please tell what that building

13 was in 1995?

14 A. In 1995, and also today, this was a military infirmary and also a

15 dental infirmary or a dentist's office.

16 Q. When you mean a military infirmary and dentist office, do you

17 mean it was used by the military for their medical and --

18 A. That is what it was called. But who used it, I really can't

19 tell. But we always referred to it as the military infirmary because it

20 had always been that. So there was a dental office and a military

21 doctor's office. This is what we called the building. But how it was

22 used, I don't know. But, mainly, it was used as medical offices.

23 Q. Now, looking at this picture in its entirety, you have identified

24 a number of buildings used by the military: The army headquarters, the

25 JNA club, allegedly the Tvik factory, and a few others.

Page 2789

1 Now from any of the buildings that are not marked or labelled in

2 any way here, to your knowledge, were any of them used by the military in

3 August 1995?

4 A. I don't know that anything was used for those purposes at that

5 time.

6 Q. And how were these other buildings used?

7 A. Come to think of it --

8 MR. MISETIC: Objection, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Misetic --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- there was a barn there, there

11 was a military bakery. That was what it was used for. You can't see it

12 from the photo.

13 MR. MISETIC: I believe the witness answered previous question by

14 saying he didn't know what the purposes of the other buildings were, and

15 the next question was: "How were those buildings were used?" So I'm not

16 sure how what the foundation is for asking how they were used, if the

17 previous answer was that he didn't know --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I understood the previous answer to be that he

19 doesn't know that they were used for military purposes.

20 MR. HEDARALY: For those purposes -- -

21 JUDGE ORIE: For those purposes which were asked for. Now, at

22 the same time, Mr. Hedaraly, if we have to go through the whole of the

23 city, then we get the cinemas, we get the bakeries, we get the grocery

24 shops, we get everything. So I don't know in what way it would assist

25 the Chamber.

Page 2790

1 MR. HEDARALY: Fair enough, Your Honour.

2 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I apologise. This may be a

3 translation issue as well. I understand him, in the original language,

4 that he said "I wouldn't know."

5 MR. HEDARALY: Fair enough --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Okay. I think --

7 MR. HEDARALY: [Overlapping speakers] ... I withdraw the

8 question.

9 Q. Let me just ask one more question on this picture. Let me just

10 ask a more general question: Were people in these -- strike that also.

11 Witness, some of these buildings that we see were houses used for

12 residential purposes. Was that correct?

13 A. These houses were residential and they were used as such; and the

14 military buildings, as we mentioned, they were used as I mentioned in my

15 statement.

16 Q. Thank you. The only clarification I'm seeking is: On the 4th

17 August 1995, were people actually living in these residential building as

18 a general matter, not individual buildings? Generally speaking, were

19 people living there?

20 A. You mean in all of those private houses?

21 Q. As in general, like in most of them, were people living --

22 A. Of course. Where else would they be living? This was a

23 populated area. Civilians lived there.

24 MR. HEDARALY: If we can move to the next page, Madam Registrar,

25 and the second picture.

Page 2791

1 Q. Now some of the --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Here we have the second picture now. That's

3 different from the ones we received, because on the left top, now the

4 name of the witness has disappeared.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is just a different snapshot.


7 Q. It's a little bit shifted towards the left, correct, from the

8 first picture?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, some of the same buildings I mentioned -- so I won't ask to

11 you repeat again. I'm just going to ask you questions about the

12 additional buildings that are only on this picture. For example, the

13 building labelled with letter "F," you have identified that as the old --

14 A. The old hospital. And to the left of it, that was the medical

15 centre; but, mainly, this was the old hospital building.

16 Q. And how was that building used in August of 1995?

17 A. Part of it was used as a detention unit, detention centre, a

18 prison.

19 Q. Was it a prison used to detain civilians or to detain soldiers,

20 if you know?

21 A. Probably, prisoners of war. I did not go there; but from what I

22 heard, this was for prisoners.

23 Q. Can you please describe for the Court what the two buildings are

24 that you labelled with the letter "I"?

25 A. These were residential buildings. In the 1970s, these used to be

Page 2792

1 barracks, and then the army sold this to the municipality. The

2 municipality renovated these buildings, and then civilians lived there

3 and this is what it is used for today, too. This is a civilian, or,

4 rather, a residential building.

5 Q. And then you have also identified with letter "J" a white

6 building that's a little larger, and you have identified it as the

7 elementary school.

8 A. Yes, the elementary school. That is what it was then, and that's

9 what it is today.

10 Q. And to your knowledge, was that school ever used by the military?

11 A. No. The school was open throughout.

12 Q. Let me ask you the same question for the secondary school that

13 have you labelled as letter "K." To your knowledge, was that you ever

14 used by the military?

15 A. No, no. This was a secondary school, there was no other, and

16 this school was open throughout the war.

17 Q. And at letter "L" you have identified the hospital. To your

18 knowledge, was the hospital ever used by the military?

19 A. Probably, if there were wounded, they were probably treated

20 there. Of course, there were also sick persons, but certainly also the

21 wounded, because there was no other hospital.

22 Q. And now you have circled, also an area in the middle of the

23 picture, with the letter "M" that you have identified as the Senjak

24 complex. Can you please describe for the Court what that was?

25 A. These were military depots. They held medical supplies, the

Page 2793

1 military bakery, and also some services; carpentry, the carpenter's shop,

2 some repairs shops, and similar used by the army. That's what it used to

3 be before, and I'm sure that is how it was used during the war.

4 Q. And the last letter that we have, that you have marked, is with

5 letter "P." Can you tell the Court what that was in 1995?

6 A. P, yes. This was an old people's home, but it was also used as a

7 sort of hotel. Officers would use these premises, officers who were

8 serving in the field. So, mainly, these -- this building was used as a

9 hotel, mostly for the military, for military personnel.

10 Q. And how large was that residence or hotel? How many -- how many

11 people could stay there at one time?

12 A. It wasn't very big. Maybe there were 15 to 20 rooms, something

13 to that effect. It has been renovated now and it is a bit bigger, and

14 now it is an old people's home.

15 Q. And do you know whether it was always occupied by officers?

16 A. I cannot say for certain. It could be used as a hotel. I know

17 that it was leased or rented out. So it was used as a hotel, because the

18 existing hotel was under construction at the time, or reconstruction. So

19 this building was also used for people who were there in passing.

20 MR. HEDARALY: Can we go back to the previous page, please, Madam

21 Registrar.

22 Q. On the right side of the screen, it is not -- it is not marked,

23 but we see half of a soccer or football pitch. Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Now do you know if that was ever used by any helicopters from

Page 2794

1 the -- from the government or the army of the RSK?

2 A. I know that the UNPROFOR helicopters landed there, the white

3 ones. I know because we saw them. Whether the army used it for the same

4 purpose, and if they had them, we couldn't really see that, and I can't

5 really confirm whether any of them landed there or not. I never noticed.

6 But the white helicopters, they used to land there. They would come and

7 go, and so on.

8 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honours, at this point, I have no more

9 questions on this picture. Before I move on, I don't know if the Bench

10 wants to focus on these pictures now or wait till later.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no questions in relation to these

13 pictures. I take it you want to tender them as one exhibit?

14 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That means two marked pictures and a legend attached

16 to it.

17 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, that is correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: It will become P189, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

21 P189 is admitted. And if we use the version we saw on the

22 screen, it can be admitted as a public document, so, therefore, no need

23 to admit it under seal.

24 Please proceed.


Page 2795

1 Q. In your statement, you said that you went to your house in your

2 native village, and you said that you had prepared food there in case

3 they attacked Knin. Do you remember that?

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 Q. Now my first obvious question is: Who were you referring to when

6 you said "they"?

7 A. Well, who would attack? If we had to flee the town, of course we

8 knew who could be the attacker. It was the Croatian army. No one else

9 could attack Knin but them.

10 Q. And you said that you had made these preparations in advance.

11 Were these preparations your own private initiative, or was it an

12 organised plan?

13 A. Well, I had an advantage because I had some money, resources,

14 because I had some dealings with the army, so I was able to obtain food.

15 This was a sort of pay that I received from them. So I was able to get

16 some food and I put away this food for a rainy day. So this was the only

17 reason.

18 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honours, if I could move into private session

19 for a few moments.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2796

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 MR. HEDARALY: Before we --

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

20 MR. HEDARALY: Sorry, Madam Registrar.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.


23 Q. Before we moved into private session, you said that you had -- I

24 asked you a question about whether this was your private initiative or

25 not, and you said that you had an advantage of getting dealings with the

Page 2797

1 army and receiving some money from them.

2 So are you saying that it was a private initiative based on the

3 resources that you had?

4 A. That money that I received, I could use it to buy whatever I

5 wanted. I had money and I had dollars, because I had also UNPROFOR

6 personnel among my clients.

7 Q. When you left for your -- for your village, what was your plan

8 regarding returning to Knin?

9 A. My plan was to stay and to go back to Knin, eventually.

10 MR. HEDARALY: If we could have 65 ter 4771 on the screen.

11 And as soon as the picture is loaded, if we could, Madam

12 Registrar, focus on the area of this map that we had discussed earlier.

13 Can we please move into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2798











11 Pages 2798-2810 redacted. Private session.















Page 2811

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Did some of your information or your understanding of what

21 buildings were being used for come from -- I'll strike that question. We

22 will get to it later when we're back in private session.

23 You were asked a question about the seniors' home, or the

24 retirement home. Did you hear anything about that building being used by

25 Mr. Martic on or around the 4th of August, 1995?

Page 2812

1 A. I couldn't confirm that he did use it, because if there were any

2 buildings that he could use, that was the old high school building

3 because that was renovated and adapted, and that's where the authorities

4 of Krajina were.

5 Q. Okay. You said in your statement, as well as in your answers to

6 some questions this morning, you talked about refugees coming into Knin

7 from Strmica, Civljani, Cetina, and Golubic.

8 Do you know if the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina had a

9 military depot in Golubic?

10 A. This was a depot of the Yugoslav army in Dosnica. As a

11 reservist, I did have occasion to go to that depot, but this depot was

12 not used anymore. There was a lot of ammunition and a lot of weapons in

13 it, and I know because I used to be a member of the Yugoslav army for

14 over 20 years. So I did have occasion to go there, and I know that there

15 that there was no need for the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina to

16 obtain anything from there. And when the international forces came, it

17 wasn't necessary any more.

18 Q. Why wasn't it necessary?

19 A. Because there were no incidents. There were no skirmishes. When

20 the borders were set up, there was no movement -- in either direction.

21 There was some minor incidents in Ravni Kotar, for instance, and that was

22 all. There was very little fire. Everything else was really maintaining

23 the positions that they had already been at.

24 Q. Now you said, in your answer previously, you said that the depot

25 in Golubic was not used anymore. How do you know that?

Page 2813

1 A. Well, there was no need to use it because the depot was full when

2 we withdrew from Krajina; and when we left, the weapons were left behind.

3 All the ammunition was left behind. These were huge depots underground,

4 the biggest in the country.

5 Q. In which country?

6 A. These were depots that were built into the hill. They were dug

7 into the hill, they were fortified. These depots were built to store

8 weapons and ammunition. These were military depots.

9 Q. What I meant was: When you said, "this was the biggest depot in

10 the country," did you mean in Yugoslavia?

11 A. Oh, no. No, no. What I meant was that it was actually dug into

12 a hillside.

13 Q. Okay. With respect to the refugees that were coming from

14 Strmica, were you aware of military activity that was taking place in

15 Strmica at the end of July and beginning of August 1995?

16 A. No, I wasn't aware of it. I just know that the refugees fled

17 when Strmica was shelled. These people then came to Knin, and they told

18 us about how they had been shelled and they couldn't stay there. And

19 because the negotiations with the Croatian government was under way, we

20 were all hoping that things would normalise and that they would be able

21 to return, which is why they remained in Knin throughout until they fled

22 Knin together with everyone else.

23 Q. These people from Strmica, did they tell that you they had been

24 evacuated out of Strmica?

25 A. No. They would left on their own. Who would have evacuated

Page 2814

1 them? At this time, people had their own means of transportation, so

2 they just decided to leave and seek shelter. That's it.

3 Q. Okay. Now, you've spoken about the fact that negotiations with

4 the Croatian government were under way, and you make reference to that,

5 as well, in your statement from 1996.

6 This is at page 2 of your statement, and you say: "I knew that

7 Babic was in these negotiations with the Croat government; and the night

8 before the shelling, there was news on the radio that they signed some

9 document saying that we would not be attacked."

10 Is that your recollection of what was said on the radio on the

11 night before the shelling started?

12 A. It was broadcast that negotiations were under way, and everyone

13 was hoping that agreement would be reached, because usually the people

14 who are in power, they try to appease the population; and how successful

15 that was, we know now. It was just like a dream. They were sort of

16 speculating as to what could happen, but we saw what actually did happen.

17 Q. But I take it from your statement, in your witness statement,

18 that -- because you say that there was news on the radio, that they

19 signed some document, and that you say that this news was on the night

20 before the shelling. Can I take it from that, that you actually listened

21 to the radio broadcast news on the night before Operation Storm started?

22 A. Of course, we listened to the radio whenever we could, because we

23 knew that negotiations were under way, and there were always promises

24 whether by those who actually participated in the negotiations or by the

25 radio reporters, broadcasters. So whatever you did hear, you would base

Page 2815

1 your own conclusions on some of it, and then the rest you would just

2 discard.

3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I'm going to ask for a document to be

4 pulled up in Sanction. We're in the process of loading it into e-court.

5 We have asked for a B/C/S translation to be made, but it is not yet

6 ready. This is 1D21-0021, and this is in Sanction.

7 Q. I will read to you, Witness, the relevant portion. I will tell

8 you that this is a recording of news that had been broadcast on Radio

9 Knin on the evening of the 3rd of August.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And it is in what language?

11 MR. MISETIC: It is in English. It is actually a BBC summary of

12 world broadcasts.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps it would be good to first ask the

14 witness whether he ever listened to foreign radio.

15 MR. MISETIC: No. It is not -- this is actually a service by the

16 BBC that actually records what the radio stations in the region were

17 actually broadcasting as news.

18 JUDGE ORIE: But still in English, or is it -- I mean, was the

19 original in --

20 MR. MISETIC: In Serbian.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The original was in B/C/S and then it was

22 translated into English, and you don't have the original that was

23 broadcast at the time.

24 MR. MISETIC: It was not written down. It was a radio broadcast,

25 which then people from the BBC recorded in English -- translated it into

Page 2816

1 English.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Were their translators as good as ours?

3 MR. MISETIC: I would hope they are as outstanding as our

4 translators are here, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That is what we hope, but that might not have been

6 easy for them.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. It says -- it's talking about now about these negotiations, and

10 it is discussing a statement made by Mr. Ilija Prijic, who is a member of

11 the Krajina delegations to the talks, and it says: "Radio Knin was told

12 by Ilija Prijic ..."

13 Then I will skip some of it, to get to the relevant portion.

14 It says that Mr. Prijic said the following: "However, the RSK

15 delegations' member assessed 'the Croatian side acted as if presenting

16 ultimatums by setting conditions which are unacceptable to Krajina,' and

17 by insisting only on the question of the so-called peaceful

18 reintegration."

19 The lead paragraph there says: "In today's negotiations between

20 Krajina and Croatian in Geneva, the Croatian side rejected the text of an

21 agreement which was put forward by international mediators."

22 Do you recall hearing such information about the talks in Geneva

23 not coming to an agreement? Do you recall hearing that information on

24 the radio on the evening of the 3rd of August?

25 A. I can't say that I recall because we did not listen to the radio

Page 2817

1 regularly. What mattered most was that they were on their way to

2 negotiations with the Croatian government. And as for Geneva, I didn't

3 know about that. Maybe I -- I don't know that there was any talk about

4 those negotiations.

5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

6 marked and admitted into evidence, and we will upload it into e-court

7 shortly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, no objections.


10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become D181, marked for

12 identification.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It has not yet been admitted. We first need

14 to have a translation of this document, so that it is stands MFI'd for

15 the time being.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, were you aware that Grahovo had fallen into Croatian

19 control on or about the 28th of July, 1995?

20 A. I did hear about it because, allegedly, some people had been

21 arrested, some Krajina soldiers, so that some news did leak out. We did

22 hear that the Croatian army had entered Grahovo, and that Grahovo had

23 been destroyed; Glamoc, Grahovo, and places like that. So there was talk

24 of that, and some of it was probably also made public, whether it was

25 broadcast on the radio or just talking about it. So there was talk about

Page 2818

1 Grahovo being taken over, and Glamoc.

2 Q. And were you aware that Mr. Martic had proclaimed a state of war

3 throughout the so-called Krajina on or about the 29th of July, 1995?

4 A. No, I wasn't.

5 Q. Were you aware that buses were coming into Knin and were taking

6 people to Belgrade in the days before Operation Storm?

7 A. No. I was not aware that they came from Belgrade. Maybe some

8 food aid did arrive but not much, because there was -- food was scarce.

9 That's the worst.

10 Q. Were you aware that the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina had

11 ordered a mobilisation of all able-bodied men in the days leading up to

12 Operation Storm?

13 A. No. And this wasn't even necessary because every person who was

14 able-bodied had to take turns providing guard service. There was no --

15 there were no special orders because we didn't have enough men, and the

16 guard stations were mostly in the border areas where people lived, the

17 people who manned the guard posts, because there was no fuel. Fuel was

18 scarce, and there were always attempts -- or it was always thought that

19 people who lived in those areas would process provide guards for those

20 guard posts on the borders.

21 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. I've been asked to have you clarify an

22 answer that you gave previously.

23 In answer to my question about buses taking people to Belgrade,

24 you answered: "I was not aware that they came from Belgrade.

25 Were you aware of --

Page 2819

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, before you reformulate that question, I

2 had some difficulties, not only with the answer, but with the question as

3 well.

4 One second, please.

5 A bus that comes to take people somewhere is slightly different

6 from people boarding buses that go somewhere. You understand the

7 difference.

8 MR. MISETIC: Yes. That is why I'm clarifying it with him now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to know exactly whether these were

10 special buses or whether people went on to buses in the direction of

11 Belgrade, perhaps not directly. That's, for me, a bit of a puzzle at

12 this moment.

13 If you could clarify that, please do so.


15 Q. Were you aware of buses that were taking people from Knin to

16 Belgrade in the days before Operation Storm?

17 A. No. And I believe, if there were any, there were very few, if

18 some people did want to leave, because I know that I tried a couple of

19 times to obtain a permit to travel, and this was very difficult. So,

20 although I was at a more advantageous position because of my work, I

21 wasn't even able to obtain these permits, and only once was I able to do

22 so. I travelled for four days in order to get resources or materials for

23 my work.

24 So I don't believe that any buses had come from Serbia. I don't

25 think any bus had come from Serbia because I would have noticed it, and I

Page 2820

1 did not notice that buses came from Serbia to transport people out of

2 there.

3 You can see this. You could see this in convoys. You could see

4 the bus plates, and you could tell where they were from.

5 Q. Okay. Regardless of where the buses actually came from, the

6 question is: Were people leaving Knin in buses that were headed to

7 Belgrade, in the days prior to Operation Storm?

8 A. No. I don't think -- well, maybe a car or two left, but no

9 buses, except for the regular bus line. I think there were three buses;

10 one leaving from Benkovac, one from Knin, and I don't know where the

11 third went from. There were three buses leaving, going from Krajina to

12 Serbia. These were regular bus -- this was regular bus service.

13 Q. Okay. And just to follow up with you, you talked about being

14 unable to obtain a permit to travel. Who was responsible for issuing

15 permits to travel, and why did you -- let me ask that question first.

16 A. The permits could be obtained through a commission. This was at

17 the medical -- at the health centre. There was a commission sitting

18 there, and mainly this is where you got it from.

19 And as for people who were involved in politics, I don't know how

20 they could obtain these; but regular people could not obtain these

21 permits, only if they had some strong grounds, medical or otherwise. So,

22 practically, we were in a ghetto. We could not move anywhere out of

23 Krajina.

24 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to change topics. I don't know if the

25 Court --

Page 2821

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one additional question.

2 Those people who were boarding the regular buses, would they need

3 a permit as well to travel, or was a ticket sufficient?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They also had to have a

5 permit; and who issued those, I couldn't tell you. These were students,

6 pupils because everyone was entitled to education. So the students were

7 not stopped from going away and studying, because there was always this

8 belief that the international forces were there, that they would provide

9 and do the role that they were supposed to do, so that schooling could go

10 own.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a question now about testimony

15 again that you gave early this morning. At page 30, lines 4 through 11,

16 you said, in answer to a question about whether the convoy was a civilian

17 convoy, you said: "It was a convoy consisting of all the people that

18 inhabited that part of Krajina, because in that massive wave, people were

19 fleeing in fear because they were fearing that the same would happen to

20 them as happened in Western Slavonia."

21 Do you recall saying --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Just before you continue, I have a technical

23 problem. It looks as if paging has started again after the first break,

24 and we are not yet at the second page 30, but it will certainly create

25 all kinds of confusion. It is just to be put on the record at this

Page 2822

1 moment.

2 So you're talking about page 30 in the first part of this

3 mornings's session. Yes.


5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

7 Q. Witness, about this fear of what would happen as happened in

8 Western Slavonia, I would like to show you a video, ask you to watch it,

9 and then I am going to ask you a few questions about that video after you

10 finish watching it.

11 MR. MISETIC: This has already been tendered into evidence, Your

12 Honour. It is Exhibit D136, still MFI, I'm told. It was submitted by

13 the Markac Defence, and we'd like to play it.


15 MR. MISETIC: The booths have the transcript, Your Honour.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: "Having heard the sound of sirens,

18 we hurried towards Terzic. It is now five minutes to 6.00. We're

19 located on a bridge crossing the river Mreznica, between Terzic and

20 Primisalj. We encountered the commander of the 13th Infantry Brigade,

21 Colonel Marko Reljic. A column of civilians with vehicles and livestock

22 are arriving from Terzic.

23 "'What does this mean, commander?'

24 "'Well, this is an exercise which we are conducting in accordance

25 with our assumptions and our information that the enemy aviation will be

Page 2823

1 active in this region using rockets and artillery; and before this

2 happens, we have to evacuate; that is, evacuate the civilian population

3 from the combat area. And our units will complete the task they have

4 been given. That means it is so important to us to train the population,

5 the civilian population, to evacuate as to suffer as little losses as

6 possible.'

7 "'Are you satisfied with the exercise up to now? Are members of

8 the 13th Infantry Brigade engaged in this exercise or are they manning

9 their positions?'

10 "'Members of the 13th Infantry Brigade are manning their

11 positions. And according to the task that they have received, all

12 soldiers are at their positions. And I'm very pleased with the conduct

13 of the civilian population. They understand the situation and are aware

14 of the fact that we need to prepare and be trained, if we truly find

15 ourselves in a situation to have to evacuate, so that there are no

16 unnecessary victims, and so that what happened in Western Slavonia does

17 not happen to us again. "

18 "'Absolutely. 'Thank you very much.'

19 "'You're welcome.'

20 "'Because Terzic is our first position which will be targeted, so

21 we wanted to test this. And by means of this exercise, we have to review

22 whether we are well prepared, whether we are well organised, and what

23 would be the best way to do this, so as to avoid civilian victims should

24 there be military activity. We need to evacuate the civilian population

25 in due time. After having learned a lesson in Western Slavonia, and

Page 2824

1 throughout history and wars, the population needs to be evacuated and

2 removed in time. The units and the army are to remain in their positions

3 executing their tasks. It is extremely important that you understand and

4 that you know that within homes and families, you need to prepare

5 yourselves, organise yourselves. And upon receipt of the signal, you

6 need to withdraw to the designated region because the enemy wants to

7 slaughter, to murder, to burn, to slaughter these children. That is why

8 every citizen must be prepared for the evacuation. This evacuation won't

9 be signalled in advance. There won't be enough time to prepare. You

10 might have to prepare. They will have to save their skin. You must be

11 prepared for this.'"

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, first, let me ask you: Have you ever seen that video

14 before?

15 A. No. I have never seen this and nothing of the sort was made

16 public where I lived, because if it had been, things would have developed

17 entirely different. But something like that could not be made public in

18 our town.

19 I don't know whether this footage was ever broadcast, if it was.

20 I simply can't believe -- well, I personally have never seen it, and I

21 have never heard of anything like it.

22 Q. Did you hear of any plans, generally in the days prior to

23 Operation Storm, of people preparing in the event that an evacuation was

24 ordered?

25 A. Well, having learned from the experience of Strmica and Civljane

Page 2825

1 which had been shelled before, we still had our hopes that we wouldn't

2 have to leave Knin. But as for stories, I know that some people have

3 tried to leave and were not allowed. So I cannot guarantee anything

4 about that. But if you ask me personally if I have heard about it, I

5 haven't.

6 Q. Well, in your statement, you say that you, yourself, had prepared

7 the house in your native village, so that could you use it in the event

8 that you had to leave Knin. Is that accurate?

9 A. That's correct. I was hoping. But as the power cuts became more

10 frequent as a result of occasional shells that had fallen on Knin even

11 before, something like that could always happen. It was always a

12 possibility. One shell even fell on my house, close to my house, and

13 damaged the house; and there was always the possibility that another

14 shell would fall directly on the house. So you had to have a backup

15 shelter; but, nevertheless, we never believed that we would really have

16 to leave our home.

17 Q. In your statement, you said that you had prepared food in this

18 house in your village, not because of fear of a shortage of electricity,

19 but because you wanted to be prepared in case they attacked Knin.

20 Do you recall making that statement to investigators of the

21 Office of the Prosecutor?

22 A. Naturally, we prepared stocks of food because up there in that

23 area there is no food. There are no shops. You can't bring it there.

24 So, of course, I did say that. I made supplies. I had a large family,

25 and for ten days you need a lot of food.

Page 2826

1 Q. My question is: You had prepared this food in this house in your

2 native village, in order to be prepared for the possibility of a Croatian

3 attack on Knin. Correct?

4 A. That's what I said. Of course, it's accurate. It is perfectly

5 true because I was only planning to go to my native village, not --

6 nowhere further.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, there seems to be a bit of confusion in

8 your understanding of the answer. I understood the answer of the witness

9 to be that, as a result from power cuts in Knin, that that might cause

10 him to go to his village, and there he had prepared that he would have

11 food to survive. So, therefore, it seems that, from your next question,

12 that there seems to be a different understanding of the answer of the

13 witness. But perhaps you could verify with the witness because you said,

14 "you didn't say that it was out of fear for it."

15 MR. MISETIC: In the statement, he didn't say it, I said. In his

16 statement, he didn't talk about electricity shortages and that is why he

17 prepared the house. In the statement, he talked about being prepared for

18 a Croatian attack on Knin. That's what I asked him.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I understood the answer to be that the

20 power cuts were in relation to it. But perhaps I misunderstood you.

21 What caused the power cuts, Witness 54?

22 Would you please answer? I was putting this question to you.

23 You are looking perhaps in a different or in the wrong direction.

24 Witness 54, can you hear me?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2827

1 JUDGE ORIE: What was the cause of the power cuts that happened

2 in Knin?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no electricity for days

4 on end; although, I personally had electricity because I was in a

5 privileged position; however, my neighbours didn't because there were

6 shortages, and people would go without power for ten days on end. It was

7 only in brief periods during the evening that they would turn on the

8 electricity, and people would be able to turn on the lighting.

9 But that was the situation throughout most of the Krajina.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that was, as I understand your answer, not

11 directly related to any shelling activity, but just the general situation

12 in Knin.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. That was the general

14 situation. People would make stocks of food if they were able to. Most

15 of the population of Knin were born in surrounding villages, and they had

16 some houses to go to back in their native village. People were thinking

17 that they could be shelled one day, and they prepared if they had the

18 resources. But they only made stocks of food and such, and most of the

19 people never planned to leave Knin for good.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, had you prepared those stocks of food in

21 your village already a long time before early August 1995, or was it

22 immediately prior to the shelling of Knin that you prepared to go to your

23 village, you prepared for food there?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could not buy large amounts of

25 food at once. It was mainly flour, sugar, oil, rice, the staples.

Page 2828

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you there. My question was about the

2 time when you prepared food to survive in your village, was that just

3 prior to --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People bought from time to time,

5 starting a few years back. They would make a stock that they would use

6 up in the interval before the next purchase. There was a lot of work to

7 do, we had our farming, and we had to have stocks of food.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what you did as well? So it was kind of a

9 constant preparation for what, how to survive, if you would leave Knin

10 over a longer period of time?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, naturally, because there was

12 always a danger because the situation was not resolved for good. The

13 fear persisted. You have to know that, in World War II, our cattle had

14 been driven up in the mountains -- to the hills, and we had a hard time

15 surviving. It was still in our blood, the belief that we should prepare.

16 At that time, we had to spend a few years in the hills, in the woods, and

17 we had to prepare the cattle as well.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.


21 Q. Witness, in the days prior to Operation Storm, did you also make

22 preparations at your -- at the home in your native village, additional

23 preparations, to be prepared to go there in the event that you had to

24 leave Knin?

25 A. At that moment, I didn't really need to because I was just

Page 2829

1 signing a new contract with the UNPROFOR, that I would be getting

2 business from them.

3 MR. MISETIC: Before he finishes the answer, Your Honour, could

4 we go into private session and let him finish that answer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

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Page 2830











11 Pages 2830-2831 redacted. Private session.















Page 2832

1 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16 MR. MISETIC: One moment, Your Honour.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. MISETIC: I apologise, Your Honour, because there seems to be

19 now some confusion, given the interpreter's correction, and our side of

20 the room doesn't think that the correction is accurate, and thinks that

21 the original translation was accurate.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, we have to turn into private session

23 again, and then we'll seek clarification.

24 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

25 [Private session]

Page 2833

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

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22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 2834

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you some questions now about the

5 morning of the 4th of August.

6 You said that you were -- you took shelter in the basement of the

7 Hotel Dinara. Correct?

8 A. Well, first of all --

9 MR. MISETIC: Hold on.

10 Q. I would ask you not to talk about your own residence, at least

11 not to tell us the exact location of your residence. But you can go

12 ahead and say where within your residence you took shelter.

13 A. Oh, right. To the ground floor of my house.

14 Q. Then, according to your statement, sometime around 5.30 in the

15 morning, you made your way to the basement of the Hotel Dinara. Is that

16 accurate?

17 A. Right. I made several trips between 5.30 and 7.00. I was

18 removing things and creating some open space to go into because it was

19 all littered. The hotel was being renovated.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, is there any confusion? You talked

21 about the 4th of August. Reading pages 2 and 3 of the statement, it

22 appears to me that the witness says what happened on the 5th when he said

23 -- but I have some --

24 MR. MISETIC: I believe that is when he says the wedding of his

25 son was supposed to take place on that date.

Page 2835

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He doesn't say anything about the 4th, but

2 let's --

3 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I think, at page 3 of his statement,

4 paragraph 2, he talks about when the shelling started. I think that is

5 when Mr. Misetic refers to the 4th of August, because on the 5th he was

6 in his native village.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.

8 Yes. Thank you.

9 Please proceed.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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21 [Private session]

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Page 2836











11 Page 2836 redacted. Private session.















Page 2837

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

22 Q. This morning you were asked some questions about Sime Dujic.

23 Sime Dujic was a Croat. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. His wife and son were also Croats. Is that accurate?

Page 2838

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You discuss, in your statement, seeing Sime Dujic lying in the

3 street, but he, himself, was not injured. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You said you heard -- or he believed that his wife and son had

6 been injured, but do you have any specific information that you came into

7 later as to whether his wife and son were actually injured?

8 A. Pero was injured slightly because their house was hit by a shell,

9 and it was on fire and it burned down; and, later, I was shown that it

10 had been reconstructed. They later moved underground to the shelter.

11 There wasn't much damage on him, just a slight wound.

12 We ourselves didn't know that Pero -- well, Sime was with us

13 every day, so we didn't really ask him where his children were. We knew

14 that his elder son was in Split or Sibenik; I'm not exactly sure where.

15 He worked there and did his studies, and he still lives there somewhere.

16 I'm not exactly sure where.

17 Q. But in your statement, you make reference to the fact that Sime,

18 his wife, and their son ultimately wound up in the UN camp. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes. They stayed at the hotel. He stayed at the hotel. I left

21 because we had taken Sime into the hotel, into the basement. Kata and

22 Pero, they remained in their basement of their house. Nobody went to get

23 them. Out of fear, he ran out, looking for help, and that's how he ran

24 into us. Actually, he fell right before us, so a neighbour and I took

25 him into the hotel.

Page 2839

1 Q. Okay. But after Operation Storm, according to your statement,

2 Sime, his wife, and their son were Croats who wound up in the UN compound

3 after Operation Storm. Is that accurate?

4 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I think the statement

5 just talks about the wife and son, at page three the next-to-last

6 paragraph. But that is it my understanding, just to clarify. Sorry for

7 the interruption.

8 MR. MISETIC: I will ask you about the wife and son, then we will

9 follow-up with another document as to Sime as well.

10 Q. With respect to Sime's wife and son, is it accurate to say that

11 they were Croats who wound up in the UN camp?

12 A. This was when we had already left, because when I returned Sime

13 told me how things panned out. I don't know it out of personal

14 experience.

15 Sime told me about this. He told me that they had gone to the

16 southern camp where the international forces had their camp.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to turn to another topic, and I believe

19 we need to go into private session again, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

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Page 2840











11 Pages 2840-2870 redacted. Private session.















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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The portion of the transcript, after the witness had

20 left the courtroom, can be made public because there's nothing

21 confidential in that. Parties are invited to further review today's

22 transcript to see whether major portions, not line by line, but pages by

23 pages can be made public.

24 We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

Page 2872

1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of May,

2 2008, at 9.00 a.m.