Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2873

1 Thursday, 15 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before the Chamber invites to continue, first of

6 all, Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning everyone

8 in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The Prosecutor versus

9 Ante Gotovina et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 First of all, I would like to put on the record that the Chamber

12 has been informed that the images from the proceedings has not been

13 broadcasted for, I think, two or three days. This is not due to any

14 decision by the ICTY. It's a technical problem the provider faces at

15 this moment, and I do understand that everyone will work hard to restore

16 the video streaming of these proceedings. Therefore, what happened

17 should not be understood as for us being in closed session or not willing

18 to broadcast the proceedings. That's one.

19 Second issue, I do understand that the proceedings to be held in

20 this Courtroom II causes considerable problems to the Defence teams,

21 because access to electronic databases, et cetera, is impaired. I will

22 get in touch, I'm not promising any results, but I will get in touch with

23 C MS S to see to what extent it will be possible that these proceedings

24 will be held in either Trial Chamber I or Trial Chamber III. At the same

25 time it is a remember complex logistical matter which involves not only

Page 2874

1 number of accused, number of counsel but also languages used, et cetera.

2 Therefore, I will do my utmost to accommodate the request of the Defence

3 in this respect.

4 Then for the next witness to be called there is an application

5 for protective measures. The Chamber would first like to hear from the

6 witness before a decision will be taken. That's Witness 165.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts. We'll first turn into private

9 session, which means, in this courtroom ...

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2875











11 Pages 2875-2882 redacted. Private session.















Page 2883

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

8 Mr. Margetts.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that since the Chamber has considered

11 some matters in relation to an application for protective measures that

12 the witness has already given a solemn declaration that she will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And you're still

14 bound by that solemn declaration, Witness.

15 Mr. Margetts.

16 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Examination by Mr. Margetts:

18 Q. Witness, did you give a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

19 on the 4th of April, 2007?

20 A. Yes, Your Honour.

21 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

23 MR. MISETIC: As a technical matter if I could ask the

24 Prosecution to ask the witness to identify herself for the record.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That's what we usually do in the beginning.

Page 2884

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Witness, could you please state your name for the record.

4 A. My name is Vida Gacesa.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, could the witness statement of the

6 witness, which is 65 ter number 4861, be brought up on the screen.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.


9 Q. Witness, could you please look at the screen in front of you.

10 And we're going to move through the pages of this statement, and I'd like

11 you to look at each page and verify that this is the statement that you

12 gave the Office of the Prosecutor on the 4th of April, 2007.

13 MR. MARGETTS: So if we could move to the second page, please.

14 And to the third page.

15 And to the next page, please.

16 And to the next page.

17 Q. Witness, since you've been in The Hague, have you had an

18 opportunity to review this statement?

19 A. Yes, Your Honour.

20 Q. Does the statement accurately reflect the statement that you gave

21 in April 2007?

22 A. Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. If you were asked the same questions today, would you give the

24 same statement in this court today?

25 A. Yes, Your Honour.

Page 2885

1 Q. And, finally, is the statement true and correct to the best of

2 your knowledge?

3 A. Yes, Your Honour.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, could the statement please be given

5 an exhibit number and entered into evidence.

6 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections, I do understand from the

7 written submissions.

8 Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P191.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P191 is admitted into evidence.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, may I proceed with the summary of

13 the statement.

14 Thank you.

15 The --

16 Q. Witness, I will just proceed with a summary of the statement for

17 the public record.

18 The witness was living in Gracac at the time of Operation Storm.

19 She witnessed the shelling of Gracac, beginning on 4th August 1995,

20 including shells landing next to her house. The outside wall and roof of

21 her house was damaged. She left her house to seek shelter in the

22 basement of her neighbour's home and on the way to her neighbour's home,

23 she observed that buildings close to her home were on fire.

24 After sheltering for around an hour, she left her neighbour's

25 house by car to collect family members from a home around three

Page 2886

1 kilometres away. While she was trying to get the family members into the

2 car, shells landed on the road, and they were forced to return to the

3 home. Despite the shelling, the witness succeeded in collecting the

4 members of her family and at around 9.30 a.m. to around 10.00 a.m. they

5 fled to her parent's home in an outlying village.

6 That evening, at around 6.00 p.m., a woman from the village came

7 to her parents' house and told them that people were leaving from Gracac

8 and surrounding villages and that they should also leave.

9 The witness left with her family towards Srb, then proceeded to

10 Banja Luka, and then to Serbia.

11 That concludes the summary of the witness statement.

12 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, could the map of Gracac city, which

13 is 65 ter 4896, please be brought up on the screen.

14 Q. Witness, if could you please look at the screen before you, and

15 if you see that map there. Since you arrived in The Hague, were you

16 asked by representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor to indicate

17 various locations that you referred to in your statement on a map?

18 A. Yes, Your Honour.

19 Q. Witness, is this the map that you marked the locations on?

20 A. Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. And if we can through those locations. Is the marking A the

22 location of your house in Gracac?

23 A. Yes, Your Honour.

24 Q. Is the marking B the location of the house of your neighbour that

25 you fled to on the morning of the 4th of August, 1995?

Page 2887

1 A. Yes, Your Honour.

2 Q. Is the marking C the location of the vet's surgery in Gracac that

3 you refer to in your statement?

4 A. Yes, Your Honour.

5 Q. Is the marking D the location of the warehouse referred to in

6 your statement?

7 A. Yes, Your Honour.

8 Q. And, finally, is the marking E the location of the house of your

9 daughter's mother-in-law that you referred to in your statement?

10 A. Yes, Your Honour.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, could the map be given an exhibit

12 number and entered into evidence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P191, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that there are no objections.

16 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections.

17 JUDGE ORIE: P191 is admitted into evidence.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry for the interruption, Your Honours,

19 registry's correction. That was P192.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then P192 is admitted into evidence.

21 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, I'd just like to show one further

22 map to the witness, and that is 65 ter number 4865. If that could be

23 brought up on the screen.

24 Mr. President, if when that is brought up the court usher could

25 assist the witness. I'd like the witness to mark a location on that map.

Page 2888

1 Q. Witness, with the assistance of the court usher, could you please

2 circle the village that you fled to where your parents home is located?

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, if that map could be saved and

6 given an exhibit number and entered into evidence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P193, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it there are no objections.

10 MR. MIKULICIC: No objection.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That is true for all three Defence teams. P193 is

12 admitted into evidence.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, that concludes my questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.

16 Witness, before I give an opportunity to the Defence to

17 cross-examine you, there are a few matters which are not entirely clear

18 in your statement which I'd like you to explain to me.

19 If we look at paragraph 5 in your statement, it says in the

20 English: "It was 5.5 a.m. in the morning."

21 That's not entirely clear to me what that is. Is that five

22 minutes past 5.00 or is that half past 5.00? And it is the time you said

23 you woke up by a shell landing very close to your house.

24 Do you remember what time that was?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was five past 5.00

Page 2889

1 in the morning. That's when I was awakened by a shell that fell above

2 the house, just above the head board of my bed, practically. I jumped up

3 from bed, looked at the clock. It was exactly five past 5.00 in the

4 morning.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I did not have the B/C/S version available to me,

6 because now looking at it, it is perfectly clear.

7 Now, there is in paragraph 4, you said: "It was a regular thing

8 for my son to take the car to the village to protect it."

9 It was not entirely clear how a car would be protected by taking

10 it to the village, rather than to leave it at home.

11 Could you explain what you meant exactly there?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would drive the car

13 to the village when my husband was away from home, because we were afraid

14 that it would be damaged by shelling and then we would have no

15 possibility to repair it. And we needed the car because we had a small

16 baby in the house. If the baby needed a doctor we would need the car to

17 drive it to the doctor, and we very much didn't want it to be damaged.

18 The shelling at that time did not reach the village.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you're talking about the shelling at

20 that time, is that in the -- is that in a longer period before Operation

21 Storm, because you said it was a regular thing. Are you referring to the

22 shelling you describe in your statement which took place now and then?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I mean the period from

24 1993 until the summer, when the Operation Storm took place, because we

25 were occasionally shelled. And we were afraid and concerned because of

Page 2890

1 the baby, so we took the car away whenever my husband was away. When my

2 husband was at home, we kept it at home.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And during that period of two years, as you

4 describe it, shelling was not focussing on the village but on the

5 outskirts of the village or ...

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Vucipolje village, the village

7 of my parents where I grew up, was to the east of Gracac, towards Knin,

8 about eight kilometres away, and the shells did not reach there.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers, those clarifications.

10 Mr. Mikulicic, I see you're on your feet. Are you the first one

11 to cross-examine the witness.

12 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, I will be the first one, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Ms. Gacesa, you will be first

14 cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: May I begin, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Gacesa.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. My name is Goran Mikulicic and I am the Defence counsel for

21 Mr. Markac in these proceedings and I will put a few questions to you. I

22 would appreciate if you answer those questions to the best of your

23 recollections.

24 Tell us, Ms. Gacesa, what is your profession?

25 A. I completed elementary education and two years of vocational

Page 2891

1 textile school in Gracac. In other words, I'm a seamstress. That is the

2 work I did.

3 Q. You were employed at the Komensko factory in Gracac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that in view of your

6 profession, in view of your occupation, you did not have much information

7 about military issues.

8 A. No, I never had occasion to study any military issues.

9 Q. Ms. Gacesa, I would like to ask you about the part of your

10 statement relating to the period from 1993 up until the beginning of

11 Operation Storm; in other words, the beginning of August 1995.

12 In your statement, you said that in 1993 the front line was about

13 50 kilometres from Gracac. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber, Ms. Gacesa, where exactly was the

16 front line? Where was this 50-kilometre point from Gracac?

17 A. Towards Gospic, up until Medak. I have never been there. I

18 never was there, but this -- during the war, but this is the way the

19 route we used to travel along, and this was, I consider, the front line.

20 I never was there during the war itself, the war in Croatia.

21 Q. I understand. In your statement of 4th April 2007, P191, in

22 paragraph 2, you said that Gracac was occasionally shelled from 1993

23 onwards. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said that, as far as you knew, in those shellings nobody was

Page 2892

1 killed. Correct?

2 A. That's correct. No one was killed, but there was damage. Houses

3 were hit, but as far as I knew, no one was killed.

4 Q. You also said in paragraph 3 of your statement that the shelling

5 was -- that the shelling followed a certain pattern, that during any

6 given day 9 to 11 shells would fall?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Once a week during the winter and approximately three times a

9 week in the summertime. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes. In the summer, the shelling was more frequent, whereas

11 during the winter, it was less frequent. That's correct.

12 Q. Ms. Gacesa, I tried to do some math here and figure out how many

13 shells, conservatively speaking, fell, approximately, in this period. If

14 we take into account, and this would be the more favourable option, that

15 in the winter which lasts about six months there were up to ten shells in

16 a week, this would mean that there was a total of 240 shells. If we take

17 that in the summer -- the four summer months ten shells fell three times

18 a week, that would bring it to a total of 180. And we did not take into

19 consideration two months, because our approach was a conservative one.

20 So this would mean that in total in a year, there were 720

21 shells, and in two years this would have been 1440 shells that fell on

22 Gracac and you say, Ms. Gacesa that out of these 1440 shells,

23 conservatively speaking, no one was killed and some houses were damaged

24 in Gracac.

25 Could you please comment on this math, on these figures, does

Page 2893

1 this look probable to you?

2 A. Well, I didn't do any math and --

3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the witness has given her evidence on

4 this topic and it is unfair of her to be put to the test of arithmetic in

5 the witness box. Counsel can ask his question or put his submission and

6 have her respond, but to do ask her to do that math is unfair.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether it is unfair or not, it is -- of

8 course the first things the Chamber would have to do is to check whether

9 your arithmetics is right. Let's not make it a competition in who best

10 checks the correctness of your arithmetics.

11 Apart from that, you'll have for half a year -- let me see what I

12 find of you arithmetics. Half a year is not 24 weeks but 26 weeks to

13 start with. Yes. So that makes not 240 shells but 260 shells. Nine to

14 11, what you call conservative, depends on whether you are receiving the

15 shells or whether you are sending the shells. I mean, all this kind ...

16 But let's say that approximately the number of shells that were

17 fired are reflected in your arithmetics and let's proceed on the basis of

18 that.

19 And then, by the way, I have great difficulties in following,

20 because if for half a year of 260, yes, for the other half of the year

21 when the intensity is three time, yes, the first one, that brings me at

22 least to 780 and 780 and, 260 in my view, is still 1040 and not 1440. So

23 if you really want to complete with whomever in this courtroom about

24 arithmetics, then you may now comment on my 1040 instead of 1440.

25 Any comments on that?

Page 2894

1 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, your math is far

2 less conservative than mine. You took into account the fact that a year

3 has 12 months, whereas I took only a ten-month period into account. You

4 have also taken into account that in six months there are more weeks than

5 I figured.

6 My intention was not to calculate the exact number of shells

7 but --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not start arguing about how many weeks there

9 are in six months isn't it?

10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I agree.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just be brief about these kind of things and

12 if you want to make a year, ten month, fine, as far as I'm concern. Make

13 it six, make it four, make it eight. For me it is it still 12.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. My sole

16 intention was to demonstrate to the witness that in fact a huge number of

17 shells, according to her words, fell on Gracac, whereas the consequence

18 of that was that no one was killed and only some houses were hit, and it

19 is my position and I will now confront the witness with this.

20 Q. Ms. Gacesa, in your statement of the 4th April 2007, you have far

21 overestimated the number of shells that fell on Gracac. Can you comment

22 on that?

23 A. The shells did not -- not all shells fell on the settlements, on

24 the settled areas. They also fell on fields and in areas which were not

25 settled.

Page 2895

1 Q. I understand. Ms. Gacesa, are you -- do you know where the

2 street Cara Dusana was in Gracac?

3 A. I don't know what street was Cara Dusana. Maybe that's the name

4 of the street during the Krajina period. If you could tell me the name

5 of the street before the war, then I would be able to tell you or if you

6 showed me a photo, I could find the street.

7 Q. All right.

8 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please bring up

9 map -- map number -- exhibit number, because it has been introduced into

10 evidence during these proceedings.

11 Please allow me a moment.

12 That is P88.

13 Please zoom in on the bottom part of the map where we see the

14 markings.

15 Q. Ms. Gacesa, do you see the map on the screen?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This is a map that we've already used in these proceedings

18 through another witness, and he marked with letter A his house and said

19 that his house was in Cara Dusana street at 133.

20 Can you now find your bearings here?

21 A. Yes. This is the football pitch. I just don't know if his house

22 was on the main street or on one of the side streets, but I know this

23 area.

24 Q. Ms. Gacesa, from what you can see, how far was this house which

25 was marked with letter A here from your house, which you had also marked

Page 2896

1 with an A on the map that we saw a few moments ago?

2 A. Well, I don't know. This is the soccer field, the street, and

3 then this house, it seems to me, is probably one of the first houses on

4 the street; I'm not sure. So that would mean -- I cannot be terribly

5 precise but probably about five to 600 metres or so.

6 Q. All right. Thank you. When -- since I mentioned the witness, I

7 will tell you that this witness was a person from Gracac, a reporter by

8 the name of Mile Sovilj and he was a report for the Srpska Krajina TV.

9 Did you know this man?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Can you now then tell how far his house was from yours if you

12 knew where he lived. That was the first question I should have put.

13 A. Well, I don't know exactly, because I can't really recall.

14 Again, it is about 500 to 600 metres.

15 Q. Thank you for that answer.

16 I will put to you what Mr. Sovilj, another resident of Gracac,

17 just as you said before this same Trial Chamber. He testified on the

18 24th of April, and on page 2213, line 19, Mr. Sovilj said that Gracac,

19 before Operation Storm, was shelled in 1993 during Medak and Maslenica

20 military operations but not constantly for two years through 1995.

21 Would you agree with this proposition of Witness Sovilj?

22 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm following on page 2213 of the

23 transcript and I would be assisted if I could have a line number as to

24 where Mr. Sovilj put the proposition that he is quoted for.

25 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm sorry.

Page 2897

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note --

2 MR. MIKULICIC: That's line 19, 2213. I will quote Mr. Sovilj,

3 if you want.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, it is quite clear that what appears on lines

5 15 and 16 is not on this transcript, so I think we need to be accurate in

6 quoting what in fact the witness said.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: I will gladly do so and I will quote Mr. Sovilj,

8 if you please.

9 [Interpretation] So Mr. Sovilj said: "[In English] ... that

10 Gracac will already been shelled in 1993 during the Medak Pocket

11 operation and Maslenica operation, so we had some experience."

12 Q. [Interpretation] My question, Ms. Gacesa, is: How do you explain

13 that your acquaintance Mr. Sovilj does not speak of a two-year long

14 shelling but says that Gracac had been shelled already in 1993 and

15 therefore during Operation Storm the people of Gacesa had already had

16 some experience of shelling.

17 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.

19 MR. MARGETTS: The proposition that learned counsel is putting to

20 this witness first of all doesn't appear on the face of the transcript.

21 That's the first point. The second point, it is not for her to explain

22 what the questions put to him were, what the nature of the answer was.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, what you're doing, which is confusing

24 for a witness is the following: You say "Mr. Sovilj did not speak about

25 this, but he says," which suggests that what he said comes in place of

Page 2898

1 what you said he did not say. This is not a fair way of putting it to

2 the witness, because this is an lot of suggestion in it which might not

3 be detected by the witness.

4 So ask whatever you want from this witness, cover the two years

5 period yes or no. Of course the testimony of Mr. Sovilj in this respect

6 is not unambiguous because it does not say we were not shelled apart from

7 the periods I mentioned. He just doesn't say anything about it so we

8 don't know anything about it what his view would be on that, and it is

9 not fair to the witness to put it as if this is covering exactly the same

10 question as the question you are putting to this witness.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. MIKULICIC: I will take your guidance, Your Honour.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Let us continue with this shelling, Ms. Gacesa.

14 You said that exactly at 5.05 the first shell you heard fell in

15 the vicinity of your house.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, after that, you talked about the shells that continued to

18 fall.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Ms. Gacesa, in your statement, you stated that about 100 shells

21 fell on that day. Is that correct? Paragraph 10.

22 A. It is correct. I stated that. That morning, around 100 shells

23 fell. I didn't count them, but around 100.

24 Q. Can you tell me in which interval these 100 shells fell and let

25 me remind you of your statement, where you said that between 9.30 and

Page 2899

1 10.00 you left Gracac for Vucipolje village.

2 A. In the morning, when I was woken by the first shell, I was

3 already concerned that something was happening, because never before had

4 a shell landed so early, and in the past two years the shelling was

5 mainly during the day. Only once or twice did it happen in the evening.

6 However, that day, that morning, it wasn't one by one shell. It was

7 several at the same time. I was afraid to leave my home. And planes

8 were soon heard.

9 Q. We'll talk about planes later. Let us return to the shelling.

10 A. So until 9.30 while I was in Gracac still around 100 shells fell.

11 There would be a number of shells, then a break, then another number of

12 shells.

13 Q. And that's the time when you went to fetch your granddaughter?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Ms. Gacesa, I will put to you what Mr. Sovilj stated before this

16 court regarding the number of shells. The reference is page 2215, line

17 3, and I will quote: "[In English] Well, all of that was a long time ago

18 but shells hit occasionally. I can't tell in what intervals, maybe an

19 hour, maybe half an hour depending on which period we were talking

20 about."

21 [Interpretation] After that, on the issue of shelling, Mr. Sovilj

22 went on to say on page 2241, line 8, as follows: "[In English] Yes, this

23 was happening at certain intervals, a total of 15, I think or at least

24 that's the way I remember it, but I was in no position to keep count at

25 that time. We were move mindful of our own physical safety."

Page 2900

1 [Interpretation] So, Mr. Sovilj says that by the time he left

2 town, to the best of his recollection, around 15 shells had fallen.

3 A. I don't know about his testimony and I cannot comment on it. I

4 cannot comment on what he said.

5 Q. Thank you for that answer.

6 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, maybe it's appropriate time to take

7 a break. I will pass [indiscernible].

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can we first ask the witness to be escorted

9 out of the courtroom.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mikulicic, your quoting of Mr. Sovilj was

12 incomplete. It was talking about 15 shells every couple of hours. So,

13 therefore, great precision is needed.

14 I just wanted to comment briefly on your mathematics. If you're

15 talking about people being killed and if you're putting to the witness

16 your overestimating of the number of shells that fell, then apart from

17 whether you come at 1440 for two years or 1040 for one year and what is

18 conservative and what is not conservative. You left out one of the most

19 important elements. That is that the witness in the statement said that

20 there was one shell first, then they sought shelter, and then the others

21 would fall.

22 So if you're talking about 1440 in two years and if you link that

23 and if you suggest to the witness that by such a number of shells, people

24 -- there should have been more people killed, then you also should be

25 fair to the witness and say, I divide 1440 by 10, which makes it 144 over

Page 2901

1 two years, first shells landing before people took shelter.

2 I'm commenting on this, because the Chamber is assisted by

3 hearing what witnesses have seen, have observed, and, of course,

4 sometimes a few conclusions to be drawn. By the way in which you, could

5 I say, seduce the witness to draw conclusions which are, from a logical

6 and mathematical point, so dubious as you did this morning, that does not

7 assist the Chamber.

8 We have a break until 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, you may proceed.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]


16 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Gacesa, let us proceed with this

17 examination.

18 MR. MIKULICIC: May I ask the legal officer to show P193 on the

19 screen.

20 Q. Ms. Gacesa, can you see this map on the screen?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you kindly tell us from your house to the house of the

23 granddaughter whom you went to fetch that morning, how many kilometres

24 are there?

25 A. Around three.

Page 2902

1 Q. And after that, you went to Vucipolje?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you show us on this map which road you took.

4 MR. MIKULICIC: I would appreciate some assistance.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you zoom in, please.

6 My daughter's house --


8 Q. Touch the screen with the pointer.

9 A. It was from Gracac towards Gospic, before the railway station. I

10 can't see the various facilities, but it was that route.

11 MR. MIKULICIC: Can I ask the usher to use the blue colour to

12 mark the house where the granddaughter was.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. President, I wonder about the utility of this.

14 We had the higher resolution map, P192, that had that marked and that may

15 of more assistance to my learned friend.

16 MR. MIKULICIC: But I don't think there is an Vucipolje village

17 on that map. If it is, I would prefer that assistance, of course.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I tend to agree with you, Mr. Mikulicic, that that

19 hamlet, or that village is not on that map. I take it that you agree

20 with that.

21 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Mr. President. In fact, my understanding was

22 that it was the house within Gracac but in fact it's the village that

23 we're looking at there. Whether or not the resolution is sufficient for

24 the marking of the house remains to be seen.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think witness can place where approximately

Page 2903

1 the house was.

2 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So, Ms. Gacesa, can you use this map and roughly mark the place

4 where the house of your granddaughter was, and mark the road you took to

5 Vucipolje.

6 A. But I don't see the road that we used. We went towards the

7 intersection -- sorry, we didn't go to the junction where there is a

8 fork-off to Knin, but I don't see that road here.

9 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Maybe, then, Your Honours, for

10 this first section of the road, we could use the map suggested by my

11 learned friend, so the witness can mark the route she took towards

12 Vucipolje village.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please give the corresponding --

14 MR. MIKULICIC: It's P192.

15 Q. [Interpretation] You see this map?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you marked the house where you went to fetch your

18 granddaughter with E?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now with the assistance of the usher, could you please mark the

21 road you took to go towards Vucipolje.

22 A. Yes. This is the roundabout way. That's the road we took and it

23 was a circumventing route.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we have either marking or the -- or the

25 cursor being used so that we --

Page 2904

1 MR. MIKULICIC: Yeah, with a marker, I think it is the best way

2 to do it.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We used this road, making a detour

4 through the unpopulated area next to Dukic Glavica, and then we emerged

5 on the thoroughfare. We reached this road and didn't go to the junction.

6 We didn't go to the intersection because the shells were falling there.

7 We took a detour through Gosici, Dojici, we emerged again on the road to

8 Knin and thus went to Vucipolje village further on in the direction of

9 Knin.

10 Q. Would you then mark the latter section of your route on the main

11 road?

12 A. Yes, this is how we went towards Vucipolje.

13 Q. Thank you. My question, Ms. Gacesa, is taking this detour that

14 you just marked on the map, did you have occasion to see any movements of

15 the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

16 A. As we were going on that road, we encountered only a few civilian

17 cars because people were taking their children and the elderly of their

18 family away to safety and it was quite normal. Everybody was doing that,

19 when shelling was strong, people took their families away.

20 Q. But there were no movements of the army?

21 A. No.

22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this map

23 marked into evidence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, the itinerary the witness marked on

25 the map goes from west to east.

Page 2905

1 Any objections?

2 MR. MARGETTS: No objection.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D185.

5 JUDGE ORIE: D185 is admitted into evidence.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Before we took the break, you mentioned that you

9 heard the sound of planes, as you were going on that road. Can you

10 describe it more closely?

11 A. I didn't say that we heard the planes while we were on our way.

12 Q. I'm sorry. Then tell us about it.

13 A. I heard, after the first shell, around 5.15 in the morning, I

14 heard the sound of planes while I was still in my bedroom.

15 Q. I understand. Did you notice or learn later that on that

16 occasion Celovac was also shelled?

17 A. I heard the sound of aircraft, and then after that, in the

18 distance, further away, there was a loud explosion. I knew it wasn't in

19 Gracac because it was a stronger explosion. I heard a shell fall. I

20 wanted to turn on the radio at that point because we did not have

21 electricity at that time, but I couldn't get anything on the radio.

22 Nothing was available. I couldn't find out what was hit.

23 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what type of installation

24 was positioned on the Celovac hill?

25 A. Well, this was a radio and TV transmitter. I never went to that

Page 2906

1 place. I don't know what type of feature this was, but could you see

2 that this transmitter was there on top of the hill, but I never went

3 there.

4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please call the

5 Prosecution Exhibit P104 on the screen.

6 Q. Ms. Gacesa, what you see before you on the screen is a report of

7 the observer commission of the UN, on -- dated the 5th of August, 1995,

8 where, in the second paragraph, and I quote, it says: "[Previous

9 translation continues] ... [In English] ... ARSK Com," which means

10 command, I believe, "installation at hill Celovac close to Gracac was

11 destroyed. Communication installation. Okay.

12 [Interpretation] My question, Ms. Gacesa, was were you aware that

13 on Celovac there were also installations of the RSK army?

14 A. I didn't know that, and I wasn't really concerned with these

15 issues. I had other obligations. I worked. I never had occasion to go

16 up there, had I had that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, I'm trying to understand your logic.

18 You read to the witness initially about command installations and

19 then you are --

20 MR. MIKULICIC: Sorry, my mistake.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then you are -- yes. Now you put this to the

22 witness. The witness has said there was some kind of relay station. Now

23 you start saying command but then are you corrected. And you say ARSK

24 communication installations and then you ask the witness whether she was

25 aware that -- and let me phrase it exactly -- that there were also

Page 2907

1 installations of the RSK army. What means also in this respect, apart

2 from these communications installations or -- because what we read here

3 and what you put to the witness is that there was communication

4 installations. So if you say, Were you aware there were also, what did

5 you have in mind?

6 MR. MIKULICIC: I think the word "also" has nothing to do with my

7 question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But if you asked the witness whether she knew

9 that there was a communication installation, she's answered that question

10 already. She said yes, I knew there was a relay station, so what does

11 this then add that it only says it was destroyed.

12 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm just trying to jog her memory, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: On what?

14 MR. MIKULICIC: On installations on the hill of Celovac.

15 JUDGE ORIE: She told us already, yes, please --

16 MR. MIKULICIC: I will take your guidance. Thank you.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Gacesa, you mentioned in your statement that

18 there was some type of warehouse near your home. What type of warehouse

19 was this? Could you tell us?

20 A. This was a warehouse, before the war this is where hides were

21 exchanged or traded, because there was a factory for curing skins, animal

22 skins, and this factory was closed during the war.

23 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please call photo

24 3D00-0606 on the monitors.

25 Q. Ms. Gacesa, can you see this photo? Is this the warehouse you

Page 2908

1 were talking about?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you recognise this warehouse?

4 A. This warehouse was close to my home. It was next to the soccer

5 pitch, and as far as I can tell, this was the warehouse of a commercial

6 company, a wholesale consumer goods warehouse.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would move that this photograph

9 be entered into evidence.

10 MR. MARGETTS: No objection.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, relevance is not clear to us yet, but -- unless

12 at a later stage --

13 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes. My point is that this is a warehouse and it

14 could be used for various purposes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So it gains relevance not that it can be used --


17 JUDGE ORIE: -- but it was used because otherwise, I mean I can

18 use whatever [Overlapping speakers] ... for whatever purposes.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Overlapping speakers]... for some other

20 witnesses...

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then, Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D186, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, D186 is admitted into evidence.

24 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Ms. Gacesa, would you please now take a look at photograph

Page 2909

1 3D-00611. 3D-00611.

2 Do you recognise this building, this warehouse?

3 A. This is not a warehouse. This is a mill in Gracac, but let me

4 say this. Looking at this photograph I can't tell when this was made,

5 whether this was of a recent date or before the war, during the war.

6 Q. For your information, Ms. Gacesa, these photographs were made

7 recently, but that is not --

8 A. Well, that is not the point. Yes, I do know this building. This

9 is the mill in Gracac.

10 Q. Could you tell us where was this mill? Was it close to any major

11 building? Was it close to the railway station?

12 A. Yes. It was about a kilometre away from the railway station on

13 the main road to Gospic.

14 Q. Do you know that not far from this warehouse there was at Jacic

15 Kovrejlo [phoen] a -- an installation or a metal processing plant?

16 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

17 Q. Are you aware that in this plant there was a depot of munitions

18 and weapons of the army of Republika Srpska Krajina?

19 A. I am not aware of that, what was stored there, but as far as this

20 building is concerned that we can see on the photo here, my husband used

21 to work there and this was operational from time to time during the war,

22 depending on whether there was electricity or not. And when there was,

23 this mill was operational. It -- my husband worked there.

24 Q. All right. Ms. Gacesa, are aware that there was a military depot

25 also at the railway station during the war, a war depot of the army of

Page 2910

1 the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

2 A. I am not aware of that. I did not go to the railway station for

3 the entire period of the war. There was no need to do that because there

4 was no train service. There was only a local train going between --

5 operating between Knin and Gracac, so I never used the trains or the

6 railway station.

7 Q. Thank you, Ms. Gacesa.

8 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have this

9 photograph entered into evidence.

10 MR. MARGETTS: No objection, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D187, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. D187 is admitted into

14 evidence.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Ms. Gacesa, you mentioned your husband. You mentioned your

17 husband. Tell us, please, what did he do during the war? So between

18 1991 and 1995.

19 A. My husband was employed with the mill that we saw. He was the

20 driver of the general manager. During the war he was mobilised. He

21 drove the ambulance of the health centre in Gracac.

22 Q. And your son, Ms. Gacesa?

23 A. My son was under age. He was born in 1977, and in 1993 he was

24 supposed to go to school in Gracac, the second year of the secondary

25 school, but because the school was closed at the time, I took him to

Page 2911

1 Serbia, to Zrenjanin where he continued his education up until he

2 completed his schooling.

3 Q. Thank you. Ms. Gacesa, you said that your husband had been

4 mobilised. When was this?

5 A. He was mobilised occasionally when there was a need for that.

6 Throughout the war, for the most part, he worked in the mill, as

7 required, and, when necessary, he also drove the ambulance.

8 Q. Ms. Sovilj, are you aware --

9 A. My name is not Sovilj.

10 Q. I apologise. I keep thinking of Witness Sovilj. I apologise.

11 This won't repeat.

12 Ms. Gacesa, are you aware that on the eve of Operation Storm

13 seven to 15 days prior to that, all able-bodied men in Gracac were

14 mobilised?

15 A. I don't know anything about that. I told you at the very start

16 that I didn't know what people did and where they went. I had family

17 problems. From time to time, I did some work whenever there was

18 electricity so I didn't get involved in those things.

19 Q. Ms. Gacesa, what was the military unit that your husband was

20 mobilised into?

21 A. I don't know that.

22 Q. Are you aware that the town of Gracac formed the 9th Gracac

23 Brigade?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Ms. Gacesa, do you know where the records on the mobilisation of

Page 2912

1 your husband were kept? What building in Gracac?

2 A. I don't know where the records were stored and where -- or where

3 he was or whether he was anywhere. He was mobilised, but he never

4 received call-up papers, so I don't know anything that has to do with

5 military assignments. He would go somewhere, but where, I didn't know.

6 Q. Ms. Gacesa, did you go to the municipal building in Gracac on

7 some business at the time?

8 A. During the war, I only went once to the municipal building, and

9 this was because my brother who had been killed had received call-up

10 papers. That was sent to his home in Vucipolje, and he had already been

11 killed, so that's why I went there.

12 Q. All right. So you can't help us with that. Thank you.

13 Can you tell us now once you came to Vucipolje -- Vucipolje is on

14 a hill isn't it?

15 A. Vucipolje is not on a hill, but the house of my parents is on an

16 incline about a kilometre away from the main road.

17 Q. In your assessment, how far was the home of your parents to

18 downtown Gracac as the crow flies?

19 A. Well, if you take the road, it's about eight kilometres, plus a

20 kilometre uphill. So I'm not really sure. It is about seven or eight

21 kilometres. I can't tell you exactly.

22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

23 witness 3D00-0598.

24 Could we zoom in on the lower half of this photo.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Gacesa, can you see this photograph?

Page 2913

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. From your memory and to the best of your knowledge, are these

3 markings of Vucipolje and Gracac exact?

4 A. Yes, this is the road from Gracac towards Knin, leading through

5 Vucipolje, yes, that's the village.

6 Q. In your statement dated 4th April 2007, you said that you

7 observed and saw smoke coming from Gracac.

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Were you able from your vantage point to decide from which part

10 of Gracac the smoke was rising?

11 A. We couldn't see exactly where the shells were falling. They were

12 falling on the eastern part of Gracac. I had lived there for 40 years,

13 so we knew roughly where it was. It was around the Catholic cemetery,

14 the orthodox Christian cemetery, the football pitch, the leather factory,

15 our house. We could see that part of the town.

16 We were looking from higher ground, but we couldn't see all of

17 Gracac, because it wasn't that high. We could only see that part that

18 was closer to us and that we knew better. We could know roughly, we

19 couldn't see exactly what was hit, but we knew approximately what was

20 being hit, the area around the intersection, around the cemetery, we

21 could see roughly what was being shelled.

22 Q. When you mentioned the intersection, do you mean this fork that

23 is actually to the east of Gracac?

24 A. Yes, that's where my house was.

25 Q. I'm sorry, we have to make pauses for interpreters.

Page 2914

1 Can you tell us, Ms. Gacesa, which roads intersect at this point

2 on that map?

3 A. To the north is Zagreb; to the south is Zadar; to the east is

4 Knin; and to the west is Gospic.

5 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness circle this

6 junction in blue, and then I would move to -- then I would like to tender

7 this map.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Which junction, Mr. Mikulicic?

9 MR. MIKULICIC: That we're just talking about, a little bit east

10 from the label Gracac and the witness will --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Where the Zagreb and Knin roads meet, yes.


13 Q. [Interpretation] Would you just draw a circle around this fork,

14 which is a little bit to the east from Gracac, where the roads towards

15 Knin meets the other road. Thank you.

16 A. [Marks].

17 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness

18 circled in blue the junction of roads leading towards Zagreb, Knin and

19 further on to Gospic and to south.

20 Could I please have a number for this.

21 MR. MARGETTS: No objection, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D188, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. D188 is admitted into

25 evidence.

Page 2915

1 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Well, you mentioned, Ms. Gacesa, that you went

3 to the municipality to protest against the call-up papers sent to your

4 late brother. Which department of the municipal authorities did you go

5 to see?

6 A. I went to see the department of the Territorial Defence.

7 Q. So the department of Territorial Defence was in the town hall?

8 A. At least I think it was the Territorial Defence, but I can't

9 confirm that, because I didn't know what was housed in various buildings

10 during the war and what various things were called.

11 Q. Thank you, Ms. Gacesa.

12 As you were looking from Vucipolje at the area around this

13 junction, did you observe movements of military units on the roads?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You told us that you were actually not able to see but that you

16 heard the shells from Vucipolje.

17 A. Yes. From that vantage point, we couldn't see precisely where

18 the shells were falling, but we knew roughly on which side they were

19 falling.

20 As for the shells that were falling on the other side, the

21 western side, that we were not able to see and we couldn't even make an

22 estimate.

23 Q. Ms. Gacesa, were you able to hear the firing of a shell or just

24 the explosion as it landed on the ground? Are you able to distinguish

25 between the two sounds?

Page 2916

1 A. Well, how shall I tell you? It was rather a long time ago. I

2 don't know whether I was able to hear that. While I was in Gracac I

3 could hear, but from there I can't give you a precise answer.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gacesa, can I ask you to make a short break

5 between the question and the answer.

6 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Ms. Sovilj --

8 A. I'm not Ms. Sovilj.

9 Q. I'm really, really sorry. I apologise again, but you know when

10 one makes a mistake, I'm doing this -- repeating this unconsciously.

11 A. I don't think that it is proper that you are misnaming me in this

12 way. I have my own name.

13 Q. Ms. Gacesa, you are completely right. It is my mistake.

14 A. Please try not to do it again. It is offensive.

15 Q. I'll try.

16 Ms. Gacesa, relative to Vucipolje, Gracac is on a lower ground.

17 A. Relative to the road, you could say yes. The road starts going

18 uphill.

19 Q. Is the broader environs of Gracac hilly and mountainous?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you observe, Ms. Gacesa, that explosions were also causing

22 echos?

23 A. Of course, because it was surrounded by hills and the explosions

24 -- the sound of explosions carried and echoed, as you say.

25 Q. And my last question, Ms. Gacesa, which road did you take to

Page 2917

1 leave Vucipolje?

2 A. At 6.00 in the evening, that day, the 4th of August, we continued

3 towards Sucevici village, from there towards Srb, from Srb towards Dobro

4 Selo, from Dobro Selo towards Martin Brod and on towards Drvar, Petrovac

5 via Strelja [phoen] to Bosanski Petrovac.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you just tell me one more thing. How did you

7 decide to take that particular road? Did anyone suggest it, did anyone

8 advise you to do that or was it your decision?

9 A. It was my decision. I had two little children, including one

10 small baby. There was no other road to take and it was our decision,

11 because the columns of people had already formed and the women I

12 mentioned in my statement is a neighbour who grew up with me in the same

13 village. We were not able to see the main road that the convoy of people

14 travelled on. It was already a huge convoy of women and children,

15 tractors, cattle, all of them were going practically nowhere.

16 It was not an empty road. We had with us a baby and my mother

17 who was infirm and practically immobile. She told us that we don't know

18 what the night would bring and we shouldn't stay. We had no electricity

19 at the time, no communication, no information coming from anywhere. The

20 radio wasn't working. We were cut off from the outside world.

21 Q. Thank you for that answer. And, now, really, the last question,

22 Ms. Gacesa.

23 Was Vucipolje village shelled at the time?

24 A. Not at that time, but we felt by later explosions that the

25 shelling was moving closer to Vucipolje. It was not only Gracac that was

Page 2918

1 shelled, but we could hear shells falling closer, closer to Vucipolje.

2 Q. Thank you, Ms. Gacesa for your answers and I'm sorry for the

3 mistakes I made with your name.

4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

6 Gotovina Defence, Mr. Misetic.

7 MR. MISETIC: No questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Cermak Defence.

9 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, any need to re-examine the witness.

11 MR. MARGETTS: No, Mr. President.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gacesa, this concludes your testimony in this

14 court because the Chamber has no further questions for you either.

15 I'd like to thank you very much for coming and for giving your

16 testimony, answering questions of the parties and of the Bench, and I

17 wish you a safe trip home again.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You will be escorted out of the courtroom by

20 Mr. Usher.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at you, Mr. Tieger, or you, Mr. Waespi,

23 what would the best at this moment, if we would take a break now until,

24 let's say quarter past 12 or ten minutes past 12.00, then we would have a

25 little bit more than an hour half to start with the next witness.

Page 2919

1 Perhaps that might be a better idea than to now start with him, but I

2 don't know the witness. Is there any issue about protective measures?

3 Mr. Waespi.

4 MR. WAESPI: I don't think so, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the next witness is scheduled for four,

6 four and a half hours.

7 MR. WAESPI: Ms. Mahindaratne is just about to enter.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne, yes, she helps us out, Ms.

9 Mahindaratne, the next witness, I still call him, because he has not

10 appeared in court, Witness 80, that would take four, four and a half

11 hours?

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. In fact, last evening we

13 informed the Defence that we would not take more than two and a half

14 hours, and I believe today I could say that it won't even take that much.

15 I could try to finish within a session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Within a session. Then we will have a break until

17 ten minutes past 12.00 and then you have ...

18 Yes, Mr. Misetic.

19 MR. MISETIC: I just wanted to note for the record that I assume

20 that we won't have to start cross-examination until tomorrow morning,

21 given the time --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you've got one hour and 35 minutes, then I

23 take it that you'll use the, let's be mathematical, at least 90 percent

24 of that time, isn't it?

25 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

Page 2920

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then it is of no use to start

2 cross-examination for five, six, or seven minutes.

3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will have a break until ten minutes

5 past 12.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber finds on its desk at this moment a

9 supplemental information sheet, just for the Defence to know that we

10 received that, which is there in two languages and apart from that, a

11 map, which apparently is marked or at least the initials of, I take it,

12 the next witness are on it.

13 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to call your next witness?

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, the Prosecution called

15 Vladimir Gojanovic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Usher, could you please assist us.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Gojanovic. Before you give

19 evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you

20 to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole

21 truth and nothing but the truth.

22 The text is now handed out to you by the usher. May I invite you

23 to make that solemn declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 2921


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gojanovic. Please be seated.

4 Mr. Gojanovic, you'll first be examined by Ms. Mahindaratne, who

5 is counsel for the Prosecution.

6 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gojanovic.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record?

12 A. [Interpretation] Vladimir Gojanovic.

13 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on

14 4th October 2004 and 20th of January 2005, which you signed on 20th

15 January 2005 -- I'm sorry, 2008.

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There should be a correction even in the

18 period it refers to 20th January, it should be 2008 and not 2005. I made

19 a mistake there.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think your correction is already reflected

21 where you said: "I'm sorry, 2008."

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


25 Q. And thereafter did you provide a supplemental statement to the

Page 2922

1 Office of the Prosecutor on 25th January 2008?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I made two errors

4 there. The previous reference to 20th January 2005 should remain 2005.

5 It is my -- my mistake, apologies.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So where you said 2005, you corrected, and

7 then 2008 is now back to 2005.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 2005. I'm very sorry, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And the 25th of January now is 2008.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 2008, that's correct.

11 Q. Now, on 13th and 14th [Realtime transcript read in error "14th

12 and 15th"] May, 2008, here in The Hague at what we refer to as a proofing

13 meeting, did you have the opportunity to examine your previous two

14 statements in Croatian language?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. On that occasion, did you make some amendments to your original

17 statement dated 20th January 2005 which were recorded?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, would you pause a little, wait till I finish the

20 question because it has to go down on record and then if you answer, it

21 will be good.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

23 MR. MISETIC: Just for precision, Your Honour. I believe Ms.

24 Mahindartne said that it was the 13th and 14th of May and the transcript

25 says 14th and 15th so if we could -- just for clarification on the dates.

Page 2923

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 13th and 14th, thank you for that.

2 Q. Now, subject to those amendments you made at the proofing

3 meeting, does your statement of 2005 and the supplemental statement of

4 2008 accurately reflect what you stated to the members of the Office of

5 the Prosecutor?

6 A. With those corrections, yes.

7 Q. May I call for document number 4806, please, on the screen.

8 Mr. Gojanovic, you have in front of you on your screen the

9 statement of 2005. And if you can just flip through the pages to the

10 signature page, please.

11 Is that your statement of 2005?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are the contents of your statement true to the best of your

14 knowledge?

15 A. That is my statement and it is accurate. It reflects accurately

16 my first statement. It is correct. It is accurate.

17 Q. And would you -- do you say that it is true to the best of your

18 knowledge, the contents, what you stated?

19 A. Yes. The contents is truthful, to the best of your knowledge.

20 Q. And if you were asked the questions that were asked of by the

21 members of the Office of the Prosecutor again here in court, would your

22 answers be the same as those reflected in your statement, subject to the

23 corrections you made?

24 A. Subject to the corrections and only subject to the corrections

25 made later.

Page 2924

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender the document

2 number 4806, statement of 2005 in evidence, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You earlier mentioned statement of 2004 and

4 2005 but when you refer to the statement of 2005 this includes the

5 interview given in October 2004?

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's correct, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

8 MR. MISETIC: No objection.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

10 Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P194, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: P194 is admitted into evidence.

13 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindartne.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can I call up document 4807 on the screen,

15 please, the supplemental statement, please, 4807.

16 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, you will see your supplemental statement on the

17 screen. It is right in front of you right now. You also have hard

18 copies, I think, before you.

19 Could you please flip through the pages to the signature page,

20 please.

21 Is that your supplemental statement that you made on 25th

22 January 2008?

23 A. Yes. That is my signature on my statement of that date.

24 Q. And subject to the corrections you made on 13th and 14th

25 May 2008, are the contents accurate and do they reflect what you stated

Page 2925

1 to the members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

2 A. Yes, it is accurate.

3 Q. And are the contents true, to the best of your knowledge?

4 A. Yes, it is true, to the best of my knowledge.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender this statement

6 in evidence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I may take it that the witness would give

8 the same answers if the same questions would be put to him again today.

9 Is that so, Mr. Gojanovic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objections?

12 MR. MISETIC: No objection.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P195, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: P195 is admitted into evidence.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President at this stage and I wish to make

17 an application to tender the proofing note in evidence. I know it's

18 unusual. However, the witness has made some amendments. Some of the

19 amendments are of a substantive nature and I will address that -- those

20 in direct examination, but with regard to the mere corrections, I believe

21 I could save court time but tendering the proofing note in evidence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

23 MR. MISETIC: No objection, Your Honour.

24 MS. HIGGINS: No objection, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then, however, before you tender them into evidence,

Page 2926

1 of course they are more or less 92 -- it's more or less a 92 ter

2 statement as well, so the same attestation --

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- is required before we can proceed.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I will do it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 48077 -- I'm

8 sorry, 4917 on the screen, please.

9 While that document is being brought up --

10 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, as you stated, you made a number of amendments to

11 your statement -- statements at the proofing meeting on 13th and 14th

12 May.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And those amendments were recorded as you provided that

15 information to the members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At the conclusion of the meeting were those -- was that note read

18 back to you in a language -- in the Croatian language?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Having agreed -- or did you find that what was recorded was

21 accurately reflected -- it accurately reflected what you stated to the

22 members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you sign the proofing note?

25 A. I did.

Page 2927

1 Q. Do you know the document in front of your screen? It is on your

2 screen right now. I think you might have a hard copy on your table too.

3 Is that the document?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are the contents true to the best of your knowledge?

6 A. Yes, it is all true to the best of my knowledge.

7 Q. And if those matters were addressed again here in court today,

8 would your responses be the same as those recorded in this note?

9 A. They would be the same.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender document number

11 4917 in evidence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P196.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And in view of the views taken earlier, P196 is

15 admitted into evidence.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I read the summary of the

17 92 ter statements.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Vladimir Gojanovic was a member of the

20 Croatian army who participated in Operation Storm. He witnessed crimes

21 committed by fellow soldiers during and in the aftermath of Operation

22 Storm, including looting and burning of property. He also observed

23 harassment of civilians and killing of a prisoner of war by members of

24 his brigade.

25 Mr. Gojanovic is not aware of any strict orders being issued by

Page 2928

1 the commanders of his brigade to stop crimes, notwithstanding the wide

2 criminal activity he observed. He is not aware of any instructions being

3 issued to the reservist soldiers deployed in Operation Storm either prior

4 to or during the operation on how civilians, civilian property or

5 prisoners of war were to be treated.

6 The witness is not aware of any members of his brigade being

7 punished for crimes committed during and in the aftermath of Operation

8 Storm.

9 That concludes the summary, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any additional questions to be put to the

11 witness?

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up map number 4918, please.

15 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, at the proofing meeting did you examine a map of

16 the Krajina and did you mark the main areas through which you travelled

17 from 4th to 8th August?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Having -- I beg your pardon, I withdraw that.

20 Do you see that map in front of you on the screen?

21 A. I can see it before me now.

22 Q. Are those red markings, were those red markings made by you?

23 A. Yes, I made them.

24 Q. Do they indicate the locations through which your unit advanced

25 its attack from 4th to 8th August?

Page 2929

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this map in

3 evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You may, Ms. Mahindartne, but apart from a few dots

5 on the map, are we going to receive information as to from where he

6 moved --

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- to where?

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's -- of course, it's already in the 92 ter

10 statement. If you wish I would --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That suggests that I could read the names on

12 this map and I know that I'm old and you have got glasses, but that's

13 really impossible on the basis of this map.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I will -- for the record

15 I will get him to identify the places.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say I see some in the south, for

17 example, I see four in the southern area, then I see one a little bit

18 higher up a bit to the east and then further up north-east at a bit more

19 distance I see another dot and then I see north of that another one. If

20 the movement was from south-west to north, a bit north-east, further

21 north, and then a little bit north, if that is the -- if that is it, then

22 fine. If it is different, I'd like to know.

23 Mr. Misetic.

24 MR. MISETIC: This is actually going to the subject of dispute,

25 so --

Page 2930

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine.

2 MR. MISETIC: It actually should be more precise than the dots on

3 the map. He should be taken through specifically where he says or claims

4 that he went through.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then ...

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I could do that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it up to you, but for the Chamber, I mean

8 we've got a map with a few dots. It is as if you get something from your

9 grandchildren and you put it on the wall. I mean it's -- for me at this

10 moment it has a similar meaning, although I know it is the Krajina area.

11 Yes, please proceed.


13 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, if you could look at your statement, paragraph 6

14 you say -- paragraph 6, it is the same paragraph number in the B/C/S

15 version. You refer to starting your axis of attack for Operation Oluja

16 on 4th August from Pavasovici, which is near Skradin. Now, could you

17 identify as to what that first dot, that is the dot at the most south --

18 southern point of the map, the first dot is.

19 A. It's our point of departure. Pavasovici village near the place

20 called Skradin, not Skradun. So it is Pavasovici village near Skradin.

21 Q. Now, there are two dots close to each other --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the map on the screen rather than the

23 text because the text is easier to read so that we can zoom in on ...


25 Q. On the first, for the record the first dot indicates the place

Page 2931

1 Skradin. Now, the dot just above it, you have written a name in ink.

2 Could you identify that for the record, please?

3 A. Pavasovici.

4 Q. Now, was that the point at which you started your axis of attack

5 on 4th August?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again ask to have the -- the map also in

7 English, because in English in the e-court system we still have the text

8 of the statement, and I cannot manipulate anything unless -- could we

9 have therefore the map in both versions, English ...

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It's still the text. Yes.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I didn't understand. You

13 wanted the map in --

14 JUDGE ORIE: We have two versions of what is shown and now it is

15 in the English version as well, it is the map, because if the map is

16 there we can zoom in and zoom out ourselves and not dependant on what is

17 done by the registry. It is fine now. So, therefore, please proceed.


19 Q. Now, in paragraph 6 itself, you mention that the axis of attack

20 started from Pavasovici towards Sonkovici. Could you indicate where

21 Sonkovici is. Is that the third dot?

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Perhaps on e-court if you could take the

23 cursor.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness could use the cursor, yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2932


2 Q. That is Sonkovici. And you -- how long did you remain in

3 Sonkovici?

4 A. A short time. We were moving rather fast. But, as I said in my

5 statement, to be more precise the first day we attempted an attack on

6 Sonkovici and that detained us, so the breakout through Sonkovici

7 succeeded only the next day. So that is the time we spent at that point.

8 Q. Now, from Sonkovici, where did your unit move on to? And if I

9 could assist you, you have mentioned that in paragraph 8 of your

10 statement, you mentioned that you moved on to Djevrska. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. We moved in the direction of Djevrska.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, while we're on the map, for reasons

14 that will you see in cross-examination, just if we could get an

15 understanding of what the map is intended to show. If it is intended to

16 show places where the witnesses claims to have been, I accept the map.

17 If it is going to the route that he took, then I would ask that the dots

18 be connected so that we see what route the witness claims his unit took

19 through these various places. I think there's a distinction.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindartne --

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's the places, Mr. President. It's not been

22 moved.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So we -- if you move from one spot to another, we do

24 not know yet and we're not asking you at this moment how you went from

25 the one spot to the other. Just whether you -- whether that was one of

Page 2933

1 your next stops.

2 Okay, please proceed.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Can you identify where -- what the third -- Djevrska can you just

5 move the cursor to Djevrska?

6 A. I think I don't see it, Djevrska, on the map. I only see another

7 point.

8 Q. It's further up than that, if you could move the map further up.

9 A. Mm-hm.

10 Q. Yes, now it's in --

11 A. Padjene.

12 Q. To the right?

13 A. Yes, yes, you're right. Djevrska is here.

14 Q. And from Djevrska, where did you move to, your next stop?

15 A. Kistanje.

16 Q. Is that where you've -- okay. The name Kistanje is indicated in

17 that red spot, for the record.

18 Could you please move the map up.

19 Can you place your cursor at the next red spot.

20 A. I can.

21 Q. What is that position?

22 A. I see I marked Padjene, but right now I cannot see this mark on

23 the map. It's too small now. It should be Padjene.

24 Q. Can we move the map further up, please. Could you place your

25 cursor at the next red spot.

Page 2934

1 A. Zrmanja.

2 Q. And can we move the map further up.

3 And a little to the -- yes.

4 Could you place your cursor at the next red spot. What is that

5 position?

6 A. Donji Srb, or Lower Srb.

7 Q. Now, in your statement you describe at which point and at which

8 -- during which time-frame your unit moved through these locations. Is

9 that correct?

10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, just for point of clarification again,

11 I think it is going be unclear from his statements, she says which -- his

12 unit. If we could have a definition of that, given that in his statement

13 which is now in evidence he claims at various points that he got

14 separated from his unit, that he was off with volunteers, et cetera,

15 so...

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Let me rephrase, Mr. President.



19 Q. In your statement, you describe as to at what time, when and how

20 you moved through these locations, you, along with the other personnel

21 who were moving with you. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And at the proofing meeting, when you examined the map, you made

24 a certain correction with regard to the time-frame.

25 A. Yes. The answer I just gave takes into account the corrections

Page 2935

1 to my prior statement.

2 Q. Let me take to you paragraph 13 of your 1995 statement.

3 MR. MISETIC: I believe it is 2005.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry.

5 MR. MISETIC: 2005.

6 JUDGE ORIE: October 2004/January 2005.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. 2005.



10 Q. There you mentioned that you entered Kistanje on 6th August. Is

11 that correct? You say: "I think it was the same day of 6th August,

12 1995, our same group of seven volunteers went through Kistanje."

13 A. May I again get -- could you repeat your question.

14 Q. Yes. Now, in paragraph 13 of your 2005 statement, you refer to

15 going through Kistanje on 6th of August, 1995.

16 A. Yes, that's what I said at the time.

17 Q. In paragraph 14 of the same statement, you would say that on the

18 same day, you moved to Padjene.

19 A. Yes. I said then that I went to Padjene on the same day.

20 Q. Now, with regard to that, you made a correction, which is at

21 paragraph 4 of the proofing note. It is referred to paragraph 4, 5, and

22 6.

23 A. Could the court usher please help me locate those paragraphs? I

24 can't find them.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindartne, why not put to the witness what his

Page 2936

1 correction was, the correction being that most likely on the 6th that he

2 returned from -- to Sibenik and then moved on --

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'll do that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- the next day.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'll do that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, that's what we're talking about, isn't it.


8 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, wasn't it the case that you informed the Office of

9 the Prosecutor that you had to make a correction with regard to your

10 time-frame; that is, that after entering Kistanje on 6th of August, from

11 there, you returned to Sibenik, to spend the night of 6th August in

12 Sibenik. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And then --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindartne, you have presented it as a fact

16 when the witness in his additional statement said that he believes it was

17 on the 6th and therefore that he concluded that it was on the night of

18 the 6th --

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- [Overlapping speakers] ... in Sibenik, but let's

21 proceed.


23 Q. You want to say that you recall leaving Sibenik in a bus to

24 Padjene and you believe that was on 7th August?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 2937

1 Q. Subject to that correction, when do you believe you were in

2 Padjene?

3 A. On the 7th.

4 Q. And where did you spend the night of 7th August?

5 A. In Padjene, the night of the 7th on to the 8th.

6 Q. And on 8th, where did you move on to?

7 A. To Donji Srb.

8 Q. When you reached Donji Srb on the 8th, was it already in the

9 hands of the Croatian forces?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Moving on to another area, Mr. President, do

12 you wish me to go through the route? I did not consider --

13 JUDGE ORIE: It -- I leave it entirely in your hands. What you

14 did is you presented the map to us with a lot of dots on it without any

15 clue as to a sequence. The sequence is now there, no details about route

16 is there at this very moment apart than that at a certain moment the

17 witness returned to Sibenik and then so that the sequence is now more or

18 less clear, but what roads they took I don't know what the relevance

19 would be so therefore I leave it entirely to you, but there seems to be a

20 matter of dispute, so I don't know yet what the dispute is.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the entire reason for

22 presenting the map is as a demonstrative tool, and the relevance is the

23 locations because the witness speaks with regard to the locations, and

24 the sequence is provided in the statement.

25 JUDGE ORIE: If that is good enough for you to deal with

Page 2938

1 apparently what will be a dispute, then I leave it in your hands.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, may I take you to paragraph 8 of your statement.

4 Mr. Gojanovic, if you could just look at paragraph 8 of your statement.

5 And I'm referring to statement P194.

6 You refer to being involved in mop-up operations and searching

7 the area.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, what exactly did you do in mop-up operations? Did you enter

10 civilian houses?

11 A. Yes. We entered all the houses and buildings that were in the

12 area.

13 Q. When you entered the houses, were they occupied or were they

14 empty?

15 A. As far as I can remember, all the houses were empty.

16 Q. Now, when you went into these empty houses, did you see any

17 evidence as to the circumstances under which the occupants had left?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Can you tell us what you saw?

20 A. Some houses were completely closed, and there was no one in them.

21 Other houses were open, and we even found sometimes on the tables a warm

22 meal half-eaten, which pointed to me that these people had fled -- left

23 their homes immediately before we arrived there.

24 Q. Now, in the course of these mop-up operations, what did you do

25 when you met civilians?

Page 2939

1 A. The civilian would be taken out onto the road and would be made

2 to lie down on the ground, and then that person would be searched to find

3 out if there were any concealed weapons. And then the other part of the

4 military unit would search that building, or the house where the

5 civilians were, in order to discover any enemies, if they were there, or

6 some hidden weapons or some other danger.

7 Then the civilians would be put under guard until the military

8 component arrived, the military component that was in charge of gathering

9 these civilians and then transporting them to the centre where all

10 civilians were supposed to be taken and kept under military supervision.

11 Q. Do you know why the civilians were kept under military

12 supervision?

13 A. I believe that they were under military supervision.

14 Q. Now, you referred to transporting the civilians to the centre.

15 Are you referring to collection centres?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindartne, I would like to hear an answer to

17 that previous question.

18 Why were civilians treated as you described? You said they were

19 kept under military supervision and taken to centres. Why was that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I provided the

21 explanation in my statement in very simple terms.

22 In a military operation, it is never certain who is a civilian

23 and who is a disguised soldier, and in that sense we also had to take

24 into account and to make sure that the soldiers, the troops who were

25 advancing on the territory were secure so that all these civilians that

Page 2940

1 we encountered would be transported to these collection centres. And

2 just let me add, I don't know who was in charge of the collection

3 centres, because I didn't have occasion to see it for myself, but I know

4 that the transport of civilians to these centre -- to the collection

5 centre was organised by the army.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Were you under instructions to deal with what you

7 called "civilians" this way?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were issued brief instructions

9 relating to the civilian population, to the effect that their security

10 should be ensured and that casualties should be prevented in the course

11 of the military operation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that is a different matter. You're

13 certainly aware of that.

14 You earlier said that the concern was you never know whether the

15 civilians were real civilians and not soldiers in disguise.

16 That's quite a different reason than saying that -- that their

17 security should be ensured, because I take it that the security of

18 soldiers in disguise was not your concern at that moment. At least that

19 is not what you explained to us.

20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would just point out what you

21 admonished me yesterday about monocausal. I'm not sure if there could be

22 two reasons that he's giving for that treatment of civilians.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but in the one case he considers the persons

24 involved to be potentially soldiers in disguise and so we are dealing

25 with two different approaches. But, okay, it is no problem that you

Page 2941

1 remind me of what I said yesterday.

2 Please proceed.

3 But ...

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you would like me to answer how

5 we concluded that a person was a civilian and that another person was a

6 soldier in disguise? If I understood you correctly.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that is at least a question that came into my

8 mind.

9 THE WITNESS: [In English] yes.

10 [Interpretation] It is hard, in the field, to actually tell who

11 is a civilian and who is a soldier in disguise. But the suspicion alone

12 is not enough to treat a person as a -- as an enemy, a confirmed enemy.

13 In keeping with that, all civilians were transported and the transport

14 was organised by the military, to the collection centres and as far as

15 I'm concerned as a soldier, I no longer had the concern whether this was

16 a civilian or a soldier in disguise once I handed over these -- these

17 persons to the military organisation.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you're talking about civilians in a rather

19 general way. Would that include women, elderly, youngsters?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not the smallest children,

23 but this absolutely encompasses all individuals, as far as the suspicion

24 was concerned as to a possible threat from them. That's -- in that

25 sense.

Page 2942

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you consider women, if you had found no weapons

2 on them when you searched them, did you consider them to be a potential

3 threat?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that you only transported or only

6 referred women with weapons to the units that transported them into the

7 collection centres?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. All civilians were transported

9 to these collection centres. In other words, once it was established

10 that an individual was a civilian, this individual was transported to the

11 collection centre. As far as I know.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


14 Q. Now, on that following the question from the Bench, if I take to

15 you paragraph 10 of your statement, Mr. Gojanovic, you -- the bottom part

16 of that paragraph, you refer to finding a group of three to four people,

17 civilians, whom you say included an old man who lied about weapons as he

18 was hiding a machine-gun in a box of corn. And you go on to say:

19 "Because they had lied about the existence of weapons, we took those

20 people from the house so they could be taken to a collection centre."

21 Now, why were they sent to a collection centre? Was there an

22 expectation of interrogation that was to take place in the collection

23 centre?

24 MR. MISETIC: I object to the leading, Your Honour.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I hadn't finished the question.

Page 2943

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, but the leading element of the question was

2 already there, Ms. Mahindartne, unless you would like to ask later what

3 kind of food they got, but that apparently was not the case.

4 Please proceed.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I apologise. I will rephrase.

6 Q. What was expected to happen to those civilians at the collection

7 centre?

8 A. They were expected to be registered, each civilian who was in the

9 area and taken to the collection centre and, on the other hand, to

10 examine all the circumstances of that civilian relative to the potential

11 enemy forces which -- with which they might have been in contact.

12 In keeping with that, I would like to add that it was just one

13 element of our caution, because we found this weapon hidden in a box of

14 corn, thus by -- thus, we removed the threat from that to other Croatian

15 soldiers.

16 Q. And where was this examination of all circumstances? Was it --

17 where was it expected to take place? At the collection centre?

18 A. Although this was not my task and it was not something that I had

19 to have knowledge about, but I assumed that this was to be done in the

20 collection centre. However, as a soldier who had to travel long

21 distances, I was practically no longer preoccupied with this issue, I was

22 more preoccupied with what I had to encounter on my way along the axis of

23 our action.

24 Q. And do you know as to who manned those collection centres, who

25 carried out those tasks relating to examination of circumstances?

Page 2944

1 A. I don't.

2 Q. Moving on to another area, Mr. Gojanovic, if I could take you

3 to -- take you back to paragraph 9.

4 You refer to -- you describe an incident where a member of the

5 113th Brigade killed, shot dead, one of two SVK soldiers had just

6 surrendered and where you had to intervene to prevent the killing of the

7 other, and this was on 6th August 1995.

8 Now, prior to setting off on the operation on 4th August, were

9 instructions given to you or were you aware of instructions being given

10 as to how you were supposed to treat prisoners of war?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindartne, in your previous question you left

13 it open that one or two soldiers were killed, whereas in paragraph 9 I

14 find that one soldier out of two arrested was killed.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I mentioned one of two, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I think it is -- yes. No. I understood one or

17 two and I see that on the transcript it says one of two.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's what I said, Mr. President, one of two.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. I apologise.


21 Q. Now, were you aware of such instructions being issued to members

22 -- I'm sorry. You already answered that.

23 In paragraph 4, if I could take you back on your statement. In

24 paragraph 4 you referred to your mobilisation on 2nd August, and in fact

25 you referred to a huge mass of people arriving in Jadrija, pardon me

Page 2945

1 pronunciation, on 2nd August for mobilisation.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, from 2nd to 4th, until you set off on the attack, where were

4 you and this large group of people based at?

5 A. We were based in buildings in the place Jadrija.

6 Q. Now, during that period, were any instructions given as to how to

7 treat civilians or civilian property?

8 MR. MISETIC: I object, Your Honour. He has already answered

9 that question and said that he was given instructions on how to treat

10 civilians.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President, I'm just asking about the

12 period 2nd August to 4th. I will get to the part --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, different period of time. Please proceed.


15 Q. During that period were instructions given as to how the units

16 were to treat civilians or civilian property or prisoners of war at the

17 time you were waiting to go on attack from 2nd August to 4th August?

18 A. No, I didn't get any.

19 Q. Now, previously, I think in response to a question from the

20 Bench, you -- in describing how civilians were treated in the course of

21 mop-up operations, you said that instructions had been given to ensure

22 their security.

23 A. I said that we got some guide-lines as to how to treat civilians

24 but this was during the action. However, at the very beginning of the

25 action or during the preparations for it, we didn't get any instruction.

Page 2946

1 And if I can add, in the two days that we were in Jadrija we practically

2 had no idea whether this was Operation Storm or some other kind of action

3 or operation or some other kind of preparations.

4 Q. Now to clarify that, when did you receive those instructions as

5 to how to deal with the civilians? And I'm referring to the issue you

6 spoke of earlier on.

7 A. During the operation, but not directly from my commander,

8 because, as I mentioned to the Prosecution, my situation was a bit more

9 specific. It didn't quite fit the military order. So, in other words,

10 we got it -- I got it during the operation.

11 Q. You got it from whom?

12 A. From the soldiers who were with me with whom I was in contact.

13 Q. And what were those instructions? Were the instructions -- or

14 how exactly was that information conveyed to you?

15 A. It was conveyed, if I may say so, en passant. So they said,

16 Search the buildings seek any civilians and discover potential enemies,

17 so that was done in the course of the operation, not before it.

18 Q. Now, one last question on that. In the course of the operation

19 did you or any of the units receive formal instructions from your command

20 as to how to treat civilians or --

21 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object again at least to

22 the -- at least until there's some foundation established as to what

23 "formal" means.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, it's just that I believe the

25 witness's evidence on this issue is not clear and I thought it would be

Page 2947

1 of interest to the Trial Chamber.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that Mr. Misetic thinks that the

3 clarification you are seeking remains still a bit in the dark. If you do

4 not deal with the -- what is formal.

5 So if you please address that as well in your question.


7 Q. Yes. Did you receive any orders, did you or the soldiers around

8 you receive any orders from your command, as to how to deal with

9 civilians or civilian property or prisoners of war during the course of

10 the operation?

11 MR. MISETIC: Again, Your Honour, I'm going to object to the

12 extent that she's asked now for the soldiers the around him. If she

13 wants to ask him personally, that is one thing, but I would ask for

14 foundation, then, as to how this witness is going to testify about other

15 soldiers.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will withdraw the reference --

17 JUDGE ORIE: There are other soldiers. Please reformulate in

18 your question so that we have -- apart from that of course, if you're

19 talking about orders given, I can hear orders that are given to people

20 standing next to me. That's -- so therefore --

21 MR. MISETIC: But there light of the prior testimony where he's

22 saying he heard it from other soldiers, you know, I don't know how --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, Ms. Mahindartne, please formulate the

24 question in such a way that there's no reason whatsoever for Mr. Misetic

25 to object and then we'll hear the answer, because that is what we're hear

Page 2948

1 for, to hear your answers.

2 Please proceed.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Were you ever issued any orders as to how to treat civilians,

5 civilian property or prisoners of war?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever hear any other persons around you being given such

8 orders?

9 A. In my platoon, while we were in Jadrija, no.

10 Q. At any stage were you informed by any of your colleagues, your

11 fellow soldiers that they had received such orders?

12 A. Before the operation, no.

13 Q. In the course of the operation?

14 A. In the course of operation this was just in casual conversation

15 that really wasn't anything like an order. It was just our discussion as

16 to how to act in such situations and our agreement in the field itself.

17 Q. My question was were you ever informed by a soldier, a fellow

18 soldier or fellow officer, a fellow soldier that they had received orders

19 that they were to treat civilians and civilian property in such-and-such

20 a manner?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, in that same -- in the paragraph 9 that we just referred to,

23 with regard to the killing of the prisoner of war, did you see what -- as

24 to what was done with the body?

25 A. No.

Page 2949

1 Q. Did you later at least hear as to what was done? Did you learn

2 about it later on?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you see the body the next day, for instance, or later on in

5 the afternoon?

6 A. No, I never saw it again.

7 Q. While we were still on paragraph for one more question on that,

8 taking you back to paragraph 4, referring to the other people who were

9 mobilised with you on the 2nd of August you say that some people were

10 clearly unsuitable for a serious operation like Oluja.

11 Now did you --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you ever find out in the course of the two-day stay as if

14 there were any persons amongst that group who were from -- who were

15 former residents of the Krajina?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Moving on to another area, if I take you to paragraph 10, you

18 refer to an incident where you intervened and stopped soldiers attempting

19 to go set fire to a house with an elderly woman.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, how did you know that there was a woman inside the house?

22 Because in your 2008 statement you explained that you did not know if

23 those soldiers were trying to burn the house, whether they knew there was

24 a woman or not, you did not know. It is stated in your statement.

25 MR. MISETIC: If we could, Your Honour, have the witness look at

Page 2950

1 a direct reference to the 2008 statement so that we all know exactly what

2 his version of events is with respect to that incident.


4 Q. If I can take you also to paragraph 5 of the 2008 statement, if

5 you look at the 2008 statement, paragraph 5. I'm referring to, for the

6 record, P195.

7 There you explain that you did not know if in fact the soldiers

8 themselves knew if there was an elderly woman inside the house. That's a

9 correction you made.

10 A. [In English] Just a minute. [Interpretation] Yes, that's what

11 I'm saying. They didn't know that the elderly woman was inside.

12 Q. So how did you know that there was a woman inside the house?

13 A. Because I had seen her previously in that house. She was

14 extremely thin and old, and there was no need to treat her in the way I

15 mentioned previously when I talked about our discussions how to treat

16 civilians.

17 Q. So before this incident, it pre-supposes that you went into that

18 house.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why did you go into that house?

21 A. It was one of the houses that I searched, and we shouldn't forget

22 that the seven of us had spent an entire night in Djevrska and it was our

23 duty to search and check as many buildings as we could. First of all,

24 for our own safety, and, in the second place, it was our duty.

25 Q. So what made you go back to that house?

Page 2951

1 A. Croatian soldiers entered Djevrska early that morning, and I

2 thought I would go and see what was going on with that woman.

3 Q. What was reason for you to take that step, because Croatian

4 soldiers had entered the -- entered Djevrska.

5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object again to the

6 leading. The question was fine, what was the reason for you to take that

7 step. The next part of the question is unnecessary.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Well, I don't see -- because Croatian soldiers

9 had entered. Mr. President, I just --

10 MR. MISETIC: He did not say that he -- again, I don't want to

11 testify in front of the witness. He did not say what she's saying at the

12 end. He said he went down there. Then he said --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apparently, although you had not finished

14 your sentence yet, but if you say what was the reason, you're asking for

15 a why, and if you then continue with because, it's not under all

16 circumstances that such a second part of a sentence would be leading, but

17 I do understand Mr. Misetic quite well that he fears that leading was to

18 be expected.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President, I apologise.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


22 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, let me ask the question again. I will rephrase

23 it. What was the reason for you to go back?

24 A. The reason I went there was that Croatian soldiers had entered

25 that house.

Page 2952

1 Q. How did you see Croatian soldiers entering the house?

2 A. Because they were very close to me when they entered.

3 Q. And then what did you do?

4 A. I went inside and looked around.

5 Q. And what did you see?

6 A. I saw that the soldiers started to set the bed on fire without

7 even noticing the old woman hiding in the corner of the room. So I told

8 them she was there, I drew their attention to her, and took her outside.

9 Q. Now, did you ask the Croatian soldiers as to why they were

10 setting the bed on fire?

11 A. Well, I don't remember that sort of detail anymore.

12 Q. Are you aware as to why they were setting the bed on fire?

13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, it is the same question asked twice.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President, I will withdrew

15 that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And please proceed.


18 Q. Let me take you, moving on, let me take to you paragraph 11 of

19 your statement, where you say that you left Djevrska, that when you left

20 it, it was okay, but when you returned about a week later, it was

21 completely destroyed. I'm sorry, it is paragraph 12, it's not 11: "When

22 we left the town of Djevrska it was okay, but when I returned about a

23 week later it had been completely destroyed.

24 Now, you testified earlier that you left Djevrska on 6th August

25 and moved into Kistanje. Is that the time that you mention when you say

Page 2953

1 you left -- when you left Djevrska, it was okay. Was that the time?

2 A. Yes, at that time.

3 Q. Now when you say "okay," what exactly do you mean? Was there

4 anything that you observed in Djevrska, in terms of damage, destruction

5 at all?

6 A. Some houses were burned down, damaged, looted. There had been a

7 lot of arson, looting --

8 Q. My question was at the time that you left on the 6th you say it

9 was okay. Yes. At that time, what was the state of Djevrska?

10 A. I'm sorry, I hadn't understood. At the time the whole place was

11 mainly intact. There was no observable damage. I think it was

12 completely intact, even.

13 Q. And then when you return a week later, what was the nature of the

14 destruction you observed? Could you give any insight?

15 A. Then, at that time, I noticed quite a large number of torched

16 houses, destroyed houses, burglarised, devastated, looted.

17 Q. Now, in paragraph 9 of your statement, for the record P194, you

18 mentioned that when you left Djevrska on the 6th, the 113th Brigade

19 formally entered Djevrska at 7.15 in the morning. This is on the 6th of

20 August.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, when your unit moved to your -- your little group moved from

23 Djevrska to Kistanje, did the rest of the units of the 113th Brigade also

24 move with you, leave Djevrska with you?

25 A. I cannot say that all the units of the 113th left Djevrska at the

Page 2954

1 time and accompanied me to Kistanje, because I simply couldn't see far

2 enough behind me.

3 Q. Do you know if any units remained in Djevrska from 6th August up

4 until the time you returned a week later?

5 A. I don't know that.

6 Q. Moving on, taking to you paragraph 13 of P194, you mentioned that

7 when your unit moved on to Kistanje you saw some soldiers who were

8 checking houses but that others were also looting and burning some

9 houses.

10 A. [In English] Just a minute.

11 Q. Paragraph 13.

12 A. [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's what I said, that some troops

13 were already there.

14 Q. And later on, in fact, you described the goods that were being

15 looted as televisions and other goods you say that soldiers had no need

16 for.

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. Now, did you see soldiers taking these items out of the houses?

19 A. Today, after so much time, I can say with certainty that there

20 was looting, but I cannot summon a single particular image of a soldier

21 carrying out a television set.

22 Q. Now, in the same statement you refer to soldiers burning houses.

23 Do you recall seeing soldiers setting houses on fire?

24 A. You mean in Kistanje?

25 Q. That's correct.

Page 2955

1 A. In Kistanje, I cannot recall seeing somebody setting a house on

2 fire, but what I saw was that houses were either burning or burned down.

3 Q. And did you see anybody in the vicinity of these burning houses

4 when you entered Kistanje?

5 A. Yes. A lot of soldiers.

6 Q. What were they doing? Were they just standing around, or what

7 was going on?

8 A. You could say that it was rather chaotic. Soldiers were moving

9 from house to house, and all in all, there was no order to it.

10 Q. Now, in that same paragraph you say: "Some soldiers were

11 checking the houses but some others were also looting and burning some

12 houses."

13 Now, what exactly led to you conclude that those burning houses

14 were -- you know, that the burning done by the soldiers?

15 A. From what I saw at the time, I inferred and had a certain

16 impression of the situation. However, today I can no longer summon from

17 my memory a single example that would explain to you how I make that

18 conclusion.

19 Q. Now, at the time - this is 6th August - were there civilians

20 present in Kistanje?

21 A. That, I don't know.

22 Q. Did you see any civilians present in Kistanje?

23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I think that question was just asked

24 twice again.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, that is a different question, Mr. Misetic.

Page 2956


2 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether there were any civilians.

3 The witness said I do not know. That means that there may have been

4 civilians which he might not have observed, and then the next question

5 was whether he observed any civilians.

6 MR. MISETIC: If he saw civilians, then they would be present in

7 Kistanje.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, it is a different question and

9 the question should have been put in the reverse order. That, I would

10 agree with you, yes.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. Can I repeat that question to you, Mr. Gojanovic. Did you see

14 any civilians in Kistanje on 6th August.

15 A. I don't remember any civilians.

16 Q. At this time do you know as to who had control of this area? In

17 terms of when I say "who," I'm not asking for an individual but which

18 force. The civilian police or the military? Who had control of this

19 area?

20 A. The military.

21 Q. Now, do you know as to the units present in this area, and when I

22 say "the area," I'm referring to the area you travelled through from 4th

23 to 8th August. Do you know as to which Military District those units

24 belonged to?

25 MR. MISETIC: Again if we could have some foundation which units

Page 2957

1 are we talking about before asking about the Military District. What

2 units.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we perhaps --

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, my question is as to whether

5 the military units present there belonged to a particular Military

6 District or not, whether he is able to answer that question, and I don't

7 think it is necessary to identify the units present because --

8 JUDGE ORIE: We could do that step by step, that is, did you see

9 any military operation in what appeared to be units, do you have any

10 further information about these units, and then do you know to whom these

11 units -- if the answer until then will be in the affirmative, then to ask

12 whether the witness knows anything about the hierarchy, to whom was this

13 unit, if there were units, subordinate.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. I will approach it

15 in a different way.

16 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, can I take you to paragraph 13 of your statement.

17 I think you have it right before you. And you say that when you entered

18 Kistanje on 6th August 1995 with your own platoon, the Croatian military

19 was present and you say that the 4th Guards Brigade had already been

20 through the town.

21 Now you yourself, have served in the 4th Guards Brigade. Do you

22 know to which Military District the 4th Guards Brigade belonged?

23 A. To the best of my knowledge it belonged to the Military District

24 in Split.

25 Q. Now further down you say that at the time you saw the burning in

Page 2958

1 Kistanje, there were units belonging to the Zadar Brigade present in

2 Kistanje. Do you know to which Military District the Zadar Brigade

3 belonged?

4 MR. MISETIC: Sorry to keep interrupting, Your Honour, but the

5 Zadar Brigade is not a -- I mean, if there can be more precision as to

6 what the witness refers to when he refers to that brigade, that is not a

7 formation.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You can --

9 MR. MISETIC: Cross-examine.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- can do it in cross-examination.

11 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, this is what the witness testified and Ms.

13 Ms. Mahindartne is perfectly entitled to ask further questions in -- as

14 follow-up to this answer.

15 Please proceed.

16 Yes. Could you please answer that question whether you know to

17 which Military District the Zadar Brigade was subordinate.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say with certainty whether

19 it would be the district of Zadar or Split, but it was Zadar Brigade

20 indubitably.


22 Q. What about your brigade, the 113th Sibenik Brigade, to which

23 Military District did it belong?

24 A. I believe a Military District is a rather broad affair, and I

25 believe it belonged to the Military District in Split as a centre. In

Page 2959

1 terms of military configuration. But in -- in my mind the Sibenik

2 Brigade was always Sibenik.

3 Q. Now, in paragraph 13 itself, you estimate that on 6th

4 August there was something like 35 to 40 per cent of houses which are

5 burning. Did you come, arrive at that estimate based on your

6 observations in Kistanje on 6th August itself or during a period of time?

7 A. During my passage, I got to the conclusion that a large number of

8 houses had been burned.

9 Q. And when you say your passage, and I'm referring to Kistanje, was

10 it on 6th August, this estimate was arrived at based on your observations

11 on 6th August, or are you referring to a period of time? That's my

12 question.

13 A. I'm talking about the 6th of August.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, you said you saw soldiers checking houses, some

15 looting, some burning. Now were these individual soldiers just coming

16 into the area or were they structured units present in the area?

17 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, again I have to rise on my feet. I

18 don't think he has testified -- as a matter of fact, I think he says he

19 has no recollection of seeing soldiers specifically burning houses in

20 Kistanje on that day so it now assumes something that he hasn't said.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I'm referring to some soldiers

22 were checking the house but some were also looting and burning some

23 houses in paragraph 13 of --

24 MR. MISETIC: He has now clarified and he's testified live in a

25 manner that he doesn't recall it, so ...

Page 2960

1 JUDGE ORIE: He didn't recall setting a house on fire.

2 MR. MISETIC: He said he didn't recall seeing a soldier setting a

3 house on fire.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I mean.

5 MR. MISETIC: And the question now assumes that he'd said he saw.

6 It says, "Now, you said you saw soldiers checking houses --"

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I withdraw the --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you rephrase -- yes. Our transcriber, is for

9 very good reasons complaining for everyone talking at the same time.

10 Apologies on behalf of all of us.

11 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindartne. At the same time I look at the

12 clock and then you need some time to rephrase the question. You could

13 also take more than the two minutes remaining and take until tomorrow.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I think we obviously

15 overestimated my ability to go through with the questions within --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time do you think you would need?

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think, Mr. President, about 20 minutes

18 tomorrow.

19 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes tomorrow. That's fair, in view of your

20 earlier assessment.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, just one thing. I think the

22 map 4918 was not tendered in evidence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No objections.

24 Mr. Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit P197.

Page 2961

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And P197 is admitted into evidence.

2 Witness, we'll resume tomorrow, although in a different

3 courtroom, Mr. Gojanovic, and the usher will now escort you out of the

4 courtroom.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to make two brief observations in view of

7 the repeated objections against the question. I start with the last one.

8 Did you know whether there were any civilians around, the answer is no.

9 The next question, have you seen any civilians.

10 Of course, the problem with these kind of questions is what is a

11 civilian. Even if you do not know whether any civilians around, it could

12 be that you have seen persons in civilian attire and therefore, I think

13 intervention, the objection took more time and I don't think, as a matter

14 of fact, a lot was lost and there was a fair chance that -- but perhaps

15 you could have asked the question also in a different way,

16 Ms. Mahindartne, did you see anyone in civilian clothing, because there,

17 of course, the ambiguity who is a civilian, is that a person in civilian

18 clothing, or what makes you believe that someone is a civilian. So,

19 therefore, I think that the objection was certainly not necessary.

20 Then the other matter about monocausal matters. Both when

21 Mr. Leslie testified and Witness 54 testified I expressed the problems I

22 had with monocausal explanations, mainly in cross-examination where the

23 questions were put in a very monocausal way. Today something else

24 happened. There was a very open question, that is, why did it happen.

25 Then an explanation came. And then later on there was another

Page 2962

1 explanation which at least suggested that it was not very much fit for

2 the earlier category of persons which clearly included civilians, but, as

3 a matter of fact disguised soldiers, whereas the second explanation given

4 appeared to be perhaps -- to relate to a different category, and I sought

5 clarification of this.

6 The first question was a simple why question and was certainly

7 not phrased in a monocausal way. This is open exchange of what I think

8 sometimes about objections and how I phrase my questions and why I

9 expressed my concerns in relation to Witness Leslie and to Witness 54,

10 where I had a fear that putting the question in that way would create

11 more or less an exclusion, of course not literally, but at least would

12 focus the attention of the witness so much on that one single explanation

13 that it might be difficult for the witness to think about other reasons

14 as well or at least to focus on that, and that is what at least yesterday

15 appeared not to be a good instrument to get the fullest information

16 possible.

17 No hard feelings about it. It's just I want you to let -- I want

18 to let you know at least sometimes what is on my mind.

19 I hope it helps you.

20 MR. MISETIC: It does, Your Honour. Let me state for the record,

21 I won't get into it now, it will come up in cross-examination, but the

22 Court will note that we have not raised many objections throughout the

23 course of this trial thus far, and this is a specific reason with respect

24 to this witness why I'm insisting on precision with him.


Page 2963

1 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Insist on precision, I can't blame anyone for that.

3 We adjourn until tomorrow, and the Defence might be enlightened

4 to learn that we will not, tomorrow, Friday, the 16th of May, start at

5 9.00 in Courtroom II but in Courtroom III.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of May,

8 2008, at 9.00 a.m.