Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2964

1 Friday, 16 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour, good morning to

9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to continue your

13 examination-in-chief of your present witness.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort

16 Mr. Gojanovic into the courtroom.

17 Meanwhile, I inform the parties that immediately after

18 yesterday's morning, session through The Victims and Witness Section, the

19 witness was informed, was instructed that he should not speak with anyone

20 about his testimony, whether already given or still to be given. I

21 failed to do that at the end of the session, but I immediately corrected

22 myself after the session.

23 Do we have already any idea about how much time cross-examination

24 would take, Mr. Misetic.

25 MR. MISETIC: At the risk of being accused of being vague, it

Page 2965

1 will take several hours, Your Honour, and I'm not confident that we will

2 finish today.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Other parties? Yes, Ms. Higgins.

4 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honours, I estimate approximately 20 to 30

5 minute, probably 20.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mikulicic or Mr. Kuzmanovic?

7 MR. MIKULICIC: I probably will have no questions, Your Honour.


9 Good morning, Mr. Gojanovic. I'd like to remind you that --

10 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

12 that you gave at the beginning of your testimony; that is, that you will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 Ms. Mahindaratne will now continue the examination-in-chief.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gojanovic.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 13 of your 1995 [sic]

22 statement, the first statement you gave.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Perhaps if we could have it on the screen.

24 Now Exhibit P194, I'm sorry.

25 JUDGE ORIE: 1995 is 2005, isn't it?

Page 2966

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I always make that mistake. I'm sorry,

2 Mr. President. 2005.

3 Q. Now, in paragraph 13, you referred to entering Kistanje and

4 seeing Croatian military present. That is correct, isn't it?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Now, were these just individual soldiers coming into the area in

7 a sporadic fashion, or were they structured units moving through the

8 process of the military operation?

9 A. Yes. I would confirm that those were military units.

10 Q. And did those units seem to have, from what you could observe,

11 the other necessary elements available to military units such as

12 logistics, communication, commanders?

13 A. No. I did not observe that, because if I look back, I must have

14 gone through Kistanje very fast. I didn't notice their exact

15 disposition, their logistics, anything specific.

16 Q. Okay. That's all right. In that same paragraph further down,

17 you refer to learning about the Kistanje post office being burned by the

18 SIS men from the 113th Brigade.

19 Now, can you explain us to what "SIS" stands for?

20 A. As far as I know, from my military knowledge, "SIS" is the

21 security service within the military.

22 Q. And did -- from what you know, did all brigades have SIS units

23 attached to them?

24 A. From what I know, I suppose that all brigades had within them an

25 organisation, a unit, connected to the military security service.

Page 2967

1 Q. Can I just take you to paragraph 20 of this statement.

2 And further down, towards the latter part of the paragraph, you

3 say: "I must add that members of the 113th Brigade were looting and

4 taking looted property back to Sibenik on the transport provided by the

5 military or, in some cases, even in their own vehicles."

6 Now, how did you know this? What is the basis of your knowledge?

7 A. Well, I saw, while I was there in Donji Srb, that members of - I

8 can't say exactly 113th Brigade, as it says in this statement of 2005 -

9 but I generally saw that soldiers placed in private cars certain items,

10 drove them away somewhere; and, on the other hand, I also saw drivers,

11 military drivers who normally transported troops, put other property in

12 their military vehicles and drove them away to the point where they had

13 come from.

14 Q. Was this something you saw once in a while, or did you see such

15 things regularly?

16 A. From what I remember, I saw such things happen in the course of

17 one day; but later on I wouldn't have been able to see such things

18 because I was deployed closer to the forest. I was in an environment

19 where there was a lot of smoke, a wooded area, areas where houses are

20 scattered across a distance. So I wouldn't have been able to observe

21 what happened on the main road because I was quite far from the main

22 road.

23 Q. Why was there a lot of smoke?

24 A. From the time we arrived at Donji Srb, there was a large

25 concentration of smoke from the fires that engulfed the woods, the barns,

Page 2968

1 the houses. But the area of Donji Srb, unlike - and local people will

2 understand this - unlike the Netherlands where houses are close to one

3 another in a plain, in this area, houses are scattered over a large area.

4 You can't see where the smoke is coming from, and every soldier took a

5 long time to get rid of that smoke, which simply infiltrated our

6 nostrils, or bodies, or brains almost.

7 Q. Now, you referred to looted goods being transported on what you

8 referred to as transport provided by the military or military

9 transporters. Now were these transporters, transporting systems, carried

10 out in an organised fashion in convoys, or were they carried out in an ad

11 hoc manner? Can I give some idea as to how the transporting took place?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

13 MR. MISETIC: If the statement says "on the transport provided by

14 the military or, in some cases, even in their own vehicles," I'm not sure

15 that is the same as saying transport systems provided for this purpose.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please rephrase in such

17 a way that it literally reflects what is in the statement.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

19 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, you refer to looted goods being transported, and

20 let me quote you verbatim, "on the transport provided by the military."

21 Now, could you give the Trial Chamber an idea as to what

22 exactly -- what vehicles are these and how are they organised. Do they

23 travel in convoys, or do they travel in an ad hoc manner?

24 A. I said very clearly, in my last statement, too, I believe, that I

25 was talking about military vehicles. You could say buses from local

Page 2969

1 transport companies that had been commandeered by the army, but one

2 should also mention that these buses that transported troops to the area

3 of Donji Srb were civilian by civilian drivers, civilian drivers who were

4 normally employed by civilian forwarding and transport companies but were

5 given the assignment to drive those troops in that assignment.

6 So I cannot say that all of them were military vehicles; but as

7 far as buses are concerned, I can tell you that coming to or leaving a

8 particular area in the field, these buses were put in a motorcade, in a

9 convoy, and these convoys were not particularly long, as far as the 113th

10 Brigade was concerned.

11 Q. Thank you for that. Let me take you, Mr. Gojanovic, to

12 paragraph 23. And there you say, with reference to looting: "There was

13 even an unofficial authorisation to take war booty when the Croatian army

14 liberated an area."

15 I'm sorry. Let me take you back one sentence before that.

16 You say: "At no time did the political affairs department or SIS

17 issue instructions that the looting, destruction, and killings must stop.

18 There was even an unofficial authorisation to take war booty when the

19 Croatian army liberated an area. This was valid for about three days,

20 and so it was believed to be acceptable to loot property and to consider

21 it as war booty. After three days, the international community had

22 Operation Oluja under close scrutiny, but by then it was more difficult

23 to stop it happening."

24 Can you tell the Court as to how you -- what is the basis of your

25 knowledge that there was an unauthorised approval, unofficial

Page 2970

1 authorisation to take property?

2 A. Well, after four years of war, in which certain areas in Croatia

3 had been constantly under the pressure of shelling by, we can say,

4 Krajina soldiers, in that sense it is quite certain that a feeling of

5 bitterness prevailed among the people. And in the course of those four

6 years, everybody wished that this area, which we call Krajina here and

7 which is actually a normal, regular part of the Republic of Croatia,

8 everybody wished that this area would be recovered to the sovereignty of

9 Croatia.

10 After those four years, the troops, after breaking through the

11 first line of defence in the Operation Storm, were overwhelmed by a

12 feeling of euphoria once they stepped on to this territory that Croatia

13 had not under its control for four years. And in those circumstances, it

14 was rather difficult to demand from Croatian soldiers to obey the normal

15 order that is to be expected in -- in regular circumstances, in the

16 regular functioning of the army. It was absolutely not sufficient to

17 warn each individual soldiers -- each individual soldier to refrain from

18 picking up an item or two from a house. It was even sort of acceptable.

19 However, in the end, these things were not really needed, so

20 soldiers eventually left these things they didn't need in the houses

21 where they found them. And as time went on, they realised how redundant

22 all that was, how unnecessary. All this was tolerated and there was some

23 sort of understanding towards those soldiers; and, again, not every

24 soldier could be under the control of his command at every moment.

25 I'm not saying that these things were approved, but it was --

Page 2971

1 there was a feeling that it was kind of justified at first. At that

2 time, I wasn't quite sure whether it was because of the international

3 community's presence or for some other reason; but, eventually, it turned

4 out that it took those three days for the international community to

5 grapple with this Operation Storm and to take it under control.

6 And, anyway, during those three days, it was felt that this theft

7 was normal and tolerable after those four years of constant shelling.

8 From the human point of view, it was some sort of justification.

9 Q. Thank you for that long answer, Mr. Gojanovic.

10 Let me take you to paragraph 16 of your statement, P194 --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask, Ms. Mahindaratne, one question in

12 between.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, you're explaining what happened and

15 that it was felt as more or less justified during a couple of days.

16 About the scale, did it happen on a scale that could have escaped

17 anyone's eye of those who were present in the area?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who do you mean, Your Honour?

19 Those who were present; the army, in general; the troops; or everyone who

20 was present in that area?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, everyone who was present. You were there as a

22 soldier. There may have been remaining inhabitants. Was it at a scale

23 that you say it could not, or could it have escaped anyone's eye when it

24 happened.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was, indeed, on a scale

Page 2972

1 that it had to be noticed. It must have been noticed by anyone who was

2 there in the field. That's my answer.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That is also -- you're now referring to those first

4 three days?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


7 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, could you please look at paragraph 16 of your

10 statement, where you refer an incident where you prevented --

11 A. Which paragraph did you say?

12 Q. Paragraph 16 of your statement. In that, I'm referring to that

13 incident where you prevented some fellow soldiers from causing harm to

14 women. And in relation to that incident, you state that while you were

15 in Zrmanja, you heard talk among soldiers that some of your colleagues

16 had gone off to rape some women, and then you go on to say that none of

17 the commanders of the 113th Brigade were perturbed about this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, when you say "none of the commanders," whom are you

20 referring to? I'm not asking for names. I'm asking whether they are

21 platoon commanders; company commanders; or brigade commander, himself.

22 A. Yes. Those were platoon commanders gathered, more or less, in

23 one house in the centre of Zrmanja, trying to organise this time of rest

24 before moving on.

25 Q. And you described how you prevented that incident using your

Page 2973

1 personal authority. Can you tell Court as to what was the personal

2 authority you had which enabled you to exercise such control over your

3 fellow soldiers?

4 And if you could, perhaps keep your response short,

5 Mr. Gojanovic. We are running out of time.

6 A. I will be very specific.

7 Before I was mobilised into the 113th Brigade, I was a member of

8 the 4th Split Brigade; and before I was -- after I was demobed from the

9 4th Split Brigade, I retained my uniform and other equipment that I

10 continued to use later on in Operation Storm.

11 According to the rules of service, as a member of the 113th

12 Brigade, I had a rather special uniform with some insignia taken over

13 from the 4th Split Brigade. I mean, the badge on the chest, and an

14 indication that would tell other soldiers that I had experience in a

15 professional brigade that enjoyed respect in the eyes of the 113th

16 Brigade.

17 I also had personal authority because I had come to that house to

18 check the situation, and the soldiers could see that I had been in the

19 4th Split Brigade. It must have influenced them in a positive way, since

20 they eventually left and things returned, more or less, to normal.

21 Was I brief enough in my answer?

22 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Gojanovic.

23 Now, in paragraph 17, you refer to --

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that, Mr. President.

25 Q. Let me take you to paragraph 20, since we are running out of

Page 2974

1 time, Mr. Gojanovic.

2 You recall an incident where Commander Kotlar arrived in a

3 vehicle and shouted at the troops, telling them not to loot or torch; and

4 then you go on to say that you did not think that the troops may have

5 taken that seriously.

6 MR. MISETIC: If we could read it verbatim, it doesn't say he

7 "did not think." It says, "I'm not sure they took him seriously."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's what I said, Mr. President: "... then

10 you go on to say that did you not think that the troops ..."

11 Well, I could just say he was not sure. It is about the same, as

12 I understand.

13 Q. You say: "I recall that Commander Kotlar visited the area of

14 Donji Srb on one occasion in his four-wheel drive vehicle and shouted at

15 the troops, telling them not to loot or torch. Although, I'm not sure

16 they took him seriously."

17 Now whom are referring to as Commander Kotlar?

18 A. Commander Danijel Kotlar was then-commander of the 113th Brigade,

19 and the stage in Donji Srb was where soldiers were just beginning to

20 occupy their temporary accommodation and many things were yet unknown.

21 Danijel Kotlar was --

22 Q. I just wanted to get his identify. I'm sorry. We are returning

23 out of time?

24 The next question is --

25 JUDGE ORIE: We find that in paragraph 3 of the statement.

Page 2975

1 THE WITNESS: All right.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


5 Q. I'm sorry I interrupted you, Mr. Gojanovic.

6 When Commander Kotlar arrived, was there looting and burning in

7 the vicinity?

8 A. No. In the immediate vicinity, there certainly was no burning or

9 looting, at least not that could be observed from this place. But as I

10 said a little earlier, there was smoke everywhere. So it could be

11 concluded that certain buildings were actually burning at the time,

12 houses or some other buildings. But it is certain that from the area

13 where we were, we could not observe that houses were set on fire or that

14 looting was being done. So had you to come a lit closer to actually

15 establish that.

16 Q. Now, in paragraph 14 of the proofing note, P196, I'm referring to

17 the other document. Not this document, Mr. Gojanovic. I'm referring to

18 the proofing note, Mr. Gojanovic, P196, paragraph 14.

19 Have you found it?

20 A. You mean the corrections or?

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the last correction dated

22 14th May 2008. Yes.

23 Paragraph 14 you, say that: "The burning and looting was such

24 that it was obvious to everybody around what was going on."

25 A. Yes, absolutely.

Page 2976

1 Q. Now, beyond that incident where Commander Kotlar shouted from the

2 vehicle not to loot and burn, during the period, 4th August to the time

3 you were demobilised, did you or are you aware of any orders being issued

4 to stop the looting and destruction?

5 A. As far as I can recall, no. However, I do remember that there

6 were instructions, because this was the first time that I also told the

7 members of my -- that I met the members of my platoon that I was supposed

8 to with from the very start. So the only instruction was that we

9 shouldn't go, venture out too far from the house where we were stationed,

10 so that we would not bring ourselves into danger.

11 So these were instructions relating to security measures, and we

12 also had information about where the Main Staff was. This was really

13 just so we would have information as to the structure in the area,

14 because after the, what you called, incident, the matters began to ease

15 up, and the army was actually put up in houses.

16 Q. Now, when you say instructions regarding -- relating to security

17 measures, is that security measures for the troops or for others?

18 A. In this case, this dealt with the structure of or the

19 organisation of the men in the field, and these were instructions for

20 soldiers.

21 Q. And just to clarify that, when I said "security for the

22 soldiers," security of the soldiers or of others? That's what I meant to

23 ask you. When I say "security of the soldiers," that they will not

24 expose themselves to any threat or the safety of others outside the

25 military organisation.

Page 2977

1 A. Well, I will try to be as specific as I can.

2 The verbal instruction had to do with the security of the men,

3 the soldiers, for a very special reason, because we didn't know who was

4 where in that area and whether there were any enemy troops there, still,

5 that could threaten the soldiers.

6 Q. One last question -- last two questions, actually, Mr. Gojanovic.

7 In paragraph 25 of your statement, I'm talking about original

8 statement, your first statement. You refer to -- you refer to the

9 Varivode killings, and you refer to - I'm taking you right down toward

10 the end of that paragraph - where you say: "All responsibility from the

11 armed forces ..." --

12 I'm sorry. Let me go back a sentence.

13 "After the crime, VONS found out about the TV footage, and so

14 they so they decided to cover it up and remove all responsibility from

15 the armed forces by demobilising two or three of the accused, to make it

16 appear that they were not serving members of the Croatian army when the

17 alleged crime took place."

18 Now first question: What is "VONS"?

19 And if you could respond to me with a quick answer. What does

20 "VONS" stand for?

21 A. Defence and National Security Council.

22 Q. Now, how did you know about the demobilisation of the accused in

23 the Varivode case? What was the basis of your knowledge?

24 A. Is this the last question that you're going to put?

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 2978

1 A. One last. All right.

2 Well, let me put it this way: From documents that I collected as

3 the president of the society for years, and which I handed over to the

4 Prosecution, I think in 2003, when we requested to have a meeting with

5 the Chief Prosecutor, who, at that time, was Carla Del Ponte.

6 Q. I think you already answered the next question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

8 MR. MISETIC: For the record, Your Honour, we have not been

9 produced any documents from the Office of the Prosecutor produced by this

10 witness.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, in fact, we do have some

12 documents relating to the incident; but at this stage, I'm not in a

13 position to say if, in fact, the source of those documents is this

14 witness or if it was another person who was connected to this witness.

15 So, in relation to the ISU searches, those documents did not come

16 up with regard to this witness; but, however, all documents have been

17 disclosed to the Defence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, when you say "produced by this

19 witness," that's ambiguous language, isn't it? You can produce a

20 document in two ways, either by drafting a document, making a document,

21 and the other one is to hand it over to someone.

22 MR. MISETIC: Well, regardless of whether it was prepared by him

23 or they were prepared by someone else and turned over by him, we have no

24 information that this witness gave any documents to the Office of the

25 Prosecutor.

Page 2979

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution under an obligation to tell you

2 where, from every document, where they collected it from, from whom they

3 got it?

4 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, particularly if a witness who is

5 coming to testify in court, and then is going to be asked on direct

6 examination --

7 JUDGE ORIE: He wasn't asked. He spontaneously came up with --

8 the question was just: How do you know? He was not asked about

9 documents.

10 MR. MISETIC: He was not asked about documents. He was asked for

11 his basis of knowledge, which turns out to be documents.


13 MR. MISETIC: So, if she is going to ask him his basis of

14 knowledge of the underlying statement which turn out to be documents,

15 that we don't know what those documents are and, therefore, how are we

16 supposed to cross-examine on his basis of knowledge, given that we

17 have --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Although, these document were disclosed to you.

19 MR. MISETIC: I don't think what documents she is referring to.

20 We have 10.000 documents produced, if not more.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see to what extent it bothers you and to

22 what extent -- if perhaps during the next break, first of all,

23 Ms. Mahindaratne explains to you what these documents are and why she

24 didn't draw your attention to it, because that seems to be a major

25 concern. It's not a matter of disclosure, but rather why you were not

Page 2980

1 informed that these documents, apparently relevant in relation to this

2 witness, that we were not informed about having received these documents.

3 And, of course, the other question, Ms. Mahindaratne, would be

4 that if you were aware, let's just for arguments sake assume that, that

5 the knowledge of this witness was based on these documents, then one

6 could wonder why, what appears in his statement just to be fake

7 knowledge, why, if there is a clear documentary basis for this, and if

8 you aware of that, why not present that.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President, I was not aware. In fact,

10 it was Mr. Misetic who raised it; and, in fact, Mr. Tieger has had

11 discussions about this matter with Mr. Misetic. We have informed

12 Mr. Misetic as to exactly where we stand. We were not aware that this

13 witness handed over any documents to the OTP, but there is another

14 witness who has handed over material. So there is no connection

15 whatsoever.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see, because, at this moment, it is still a

17 little bit vague to me what you knew, what you should have known,

18 perhaps. There apparently have been conversations.

19 MR. MISETIC: It is different than what I was represented. I was

20 told this morning that there was nothing found in the search. I did

21 raise an issue last night, and I was told there is nothing in the records

22 thus far in the searches by the Prosecution.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's correct, Mr. President. There is

24 nothing found. What, in fact, was pointed out is that --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following. Apparently, a new element

Page 2981

1 arises at this moment, that you first take the opportunity during the

2 next break, perhaps with Mr. Tieger and you, Ms. Mahindaratne, and that

3 you speak with Mr. Misetic, preferably in the presence of other counsel

4 as well, so they don't miss any information, that you see after this

5 discussion what remains as a matter perhaps to be dealt with by this

6 Chamber, and then we will be informed about it.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That includes my examination, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Misetic, you can stand up right away

12 again, at least if it is you who is it the first one to cross-examine the

13 witness.

14 You asked whether it was the last question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

16 Mr. Gojanovic, if there is anything that you would like to add to

17 your statement, that's fine. If there is any anything you would like to

18 add --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is. There is.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- please add what you wish to add. Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to say

22 something about this last issue: The Varivode case, and the Varivode

23 Zrmanja, Varivode Gosici.

24 I have to clarify a specific role I had before this Court because

25 I am here as a person, so Vladimir Gojanovic; but also as a long-term

Page 2982

1 member of my organisation which was the Croatian Society --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

3 repeat the name of the organisation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the name of the

5 organisation.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Croatian Association of

7 Demobilised Participants of the Homeland War.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, before you continue, I take it that

9 your role in that organisation will be dealt with during

10 cross-examination, unless there's something spectacular new. But if you

11 would like explain your role in that organisation, I take it that you

12 will have an ample opportunity during cross-examination to give all kinds

13 of details Mr. Misetic or other Defence counsel might ask you about.

14 If at the very end there is still information you think this

15 Chamber should be aware of in this respect, you will have an opportunity

16 to tell us.

17 Yes?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, but I still wanted to

19 add something. However, if it is certain that the Defence will also

20 question me in relation to that case, it is absolutely my intention that,

21 in keeping with the oath that I gave, I protect the truth and to provide

22 a statement that is as thorough as possible, so that the final decision

23 in this case is fair.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No one expects you to do anything else than to

25 firmly stick to the solemn declaration you've given.

Page 2983

1 Mr. Misetic.

2 Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina, and he will now

3 cross-examine you.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:


7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gojanovic.

8 Let me start by following-up with a question on an answer you

9 recently gave, concerning the authority you enjoyed in the 113th Brigade

10 as a result of your participation earlier in the 4th Guards Brigade.

11 Would you say that you were conspicuous to the other members of

12 the 113th as a result of your prior affiliations with the 4th Guards

13 Brigade?

14 A. Absolutely not. I wouldn't say that. I would rather say that

15 that role was confirmed as a very valuable one.

16 Q. I don't know if we misunderstood each other.

17 Because of your prior affiliations in the 4th Guards Brigade, did

18 the other members of the 113th take particular notice of you?

19 A. Well, I was conspicuous because I did not have the same insignia

20 and because the 4th Guards Brigade is still one of the most respected

21 Brigades in the homeland war; and in that sense, there was a certain

22 respect, not for me as an individual because I wore that uniform, but

23 also indirectly out of respect for the 4th Split Brigade in the Homeland

24 war.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you for that answer.

Page 2984

1 I'm going to take some time with you now, Mr. Gojanovic. I noted

2 in your statement that there are a lot of names that are not in your

3 statement. So I'd like to take several minutes now with you to get some

4 names of some of the individuals that we're talking about in your

5 statement.

6 So if you could start off by telling us who was -- give us the

7 name of your squad commander when you started on the 4th of August.

8 A. As far as I can remember, the squad commander, the squad where I

9 was, was Jozo Marinovic; the commander of the 113th Sibenik Brigade was

10 Danijel Kotlar; and, my platoon commander, I don't think I know his name

11 and I don't think I will ever learn it.

12 Q. That was my next question. So you don't know the name of your

13 platoon commander. What about your company commander?

14 A. I wouldn't know that either.

15 Q. Who was your battalion commander?

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, objection. The witness has

17 already, at paragraph 26, said that he cannot recall the name of the

18 battalion commander.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So you would say the question was superfluous and

20 then taking time to explain what is superfluous is superfluous as well.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. MISETIC: Is it stricken now the question or perhaps he

23 recollects today?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Yes. But I would not encourage the

25 parties to ask the witness whatever he said he didn't remember at the

Page 2985

1 time.


3 Q. So you don't know your platoon commander; you don't know your

4 company commander; you don't know your battalion commander; and your

5 brigade commander was Mr. Kotlar. Correct?

6 A. That's right.

7 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, Mr. Misetic, as a matter of fact, you

8 asked: "Is it stricken now the question?" As a matter of fact, I did

9 not intend to prevent the witness from giving an answer to your question.

10 I was just commenting on a rather useless intervention on what I thought

11 might be a superfluous question, but we never know.

12 I agree with you; and as I said before, I do not encourage the

13 parties to put all the questions to the witness when he earlier in the

14 statement said they don't remember.

15 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have an objection.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's not for you to --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your response was in English. What

19 you said, you said in English.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I usually speak English here, so I do not exactly

21 know what -- did you not receive translation?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I did not receive translation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That's a fair objection. It is not an objection

24 against the question.

25 Then, Mr. Misetic, perhaps you put the question that was finally

Page 2986

1 not answered by the witness.


3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


5 Q. Who was your battalion commander?

6 A. As far as I can recall, it was Jozo Marinovic.

7 Q. Well, that's the name you gave -- I asked you -- my first

8 question was: Who was your squad commander? You said it was Jozo

9 Marinovic. So was Jozo Marinovic your battalion commander or your squad

10 commander?

11 A. No, no. He was the battalion commander, as far as I can recall.

12 And as for information, let's clarify that so we avoid any superfluous

13 questions, I don't remember who the squad commander was or who the

14 company commander was.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You were right, Mr. Misetic.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

18 Q. At paragraph 7 of your statement, you say: "Some lower-level

19 commanders of the 2nd Battalion decided we had to launch an attack using

20 volunteers."

21 Who are the lower-level commanders you're referring to, by name?

22 A. I apologise, Your Honour, but I had some difficulty with my

23 headset and I did not follow. I couldn't follow which paragraph and

24 which statement the question related to.

25 Q. Paragraph 7 of the 2005 statement, the second sentence.

Page 2987

1 A. Mm-hm. All right.

2 Q. What are the names of the lower-level commanders of the

3 2nd Battalion that you refer to there?

4 A. That I don't know, that's four sure. After all this time that

5 has elapsed and the distance, you also have to bear in mind that I had

6 only recently joined the 113th Brigade where I came from the 4th Guards,

7 and I didn't really know the people. So this was a major difficulty also

8 in recognizing the people who were commanders and those who weren't,

9 during the action itself.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, you answered that question in five

11 words, and then you explained why you didn't know. There's no need to do

12 that. We accept if you do not know. If there's any doubt about the

13 reasons, Mr. Misetic will ask you about it. So if he asks "Do you

14 know?", just simply say that you don't remember their names. Then if

15 there is any need for a follow-up, Mr. Misetic will not fail to give that

16 follow-up.

17 Please proceed.


19 Q. In that same paragraph, sir, towards the bottom of page 4, it

20 says: "We gathered on a side road that was in an elevated position; and

21 with the use of a tank that had joined us, we went towards Sonkovici.

22 The tank commander was considered our commander for this mission."

23 What is the name of the tank commander?

24 A. Yes. The tank commander's nickname was "Judge" Sudac. I don't

25 know exactly what his name was, but he was an experienced fighter.

Page 2988

1 Q. So Sudac's name be Radoslav Juricev?

2 A. I think, yes. From Vodice, Juricev, yes.

3 Q. Earlier on in that paragraph, you say: "Since our initial attack

4 was not successful, the following day, I was one of ten volunteers that

5 infiltrated enemy lines."

6 Can you give us the names of some or all of the ten volunteers?

7 A. One of their last name was Zafranovic and I know one of them, but

8 that is not sufficient for your information. I cannot remember all the

9 names of all the volunteers who volunteered for this, and that is my

10 answer.

11 Q. Is Zafranovic's name "Davor"? Does that refresh your

12 recollection?

13 A. I don't know. I know the man, but I don't know if his name is

14 Davor.

15 Q. In that same paragraph on the next page, in English version, it

16 says: "One part of my team captured the UNPROFOR peacekeepers."

17 Can you identify any of the individuals who were part of your

18 team who captured the UNPROFOR peacekeepers?

19 A. I cannot.

20 Q. A little lower down in that same paragraph, it says: "Another

21 part of my group, the part I was in with the tank, attacked and destroyed

22 the machine-gun post from the left."

23 Can you identify any or all of the other members of that part of

24 the group?

25 A. I cannot. It was too many years ago.

Page 2989

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... second sentence: "I climbed

2 on top of a tank with about six other soldiers."

3 Can you name any or all of these six other soldiers.

4 A. No, expect the tank commander.

5 Q. And that is the man you identified earlier as "Sudac." Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Same paragraph, second-to-last sentence: "Because the 113th had

8 moved slower than was necessary, after the success of taking Djevrska,

9 seven volunteers, including myself, spent one night in the town. The

10 volunteers included three conscripts. During that night, we searched the

11 whole of the town."

12 Can you identify any or all of the seven volunteers that spent

13 the night in the town?

14 A. There was one nicknamed "Mis," Mouse; but I don't know their

15 name, their real names.

16 Q. Now, paragraph 9, in the middle of the paragraph: "The person

17 who came behind me, the one on the motorcycle from the 113th Brigade,

18 then shot and killed one of the surrendered soldiers in front of me."

19 Then the last sentence says: "I do not know the name of the

20 soldier who killed the Krajina soldier, but I know he is very young and I

21 have not seen him for a very long time, even though he also lives in

22 Sibenik."

23 A. Yes, yes. That's what I said in my statement.

24 Q. This statement is from 2005, sir. Since 2005, has our memory

25 been refreshed as to the identity of the soldier who killed the prisoner

Page 2990

1 of war, according to you?

2 A. No. It has been a very, very long time since I last heard from

3 him or saw him.

4 Q. But you do know that he lives in Sibenik?

5 A. I concluded that he lives in Sibenik, because from the time of

6 the incident, I saw him only twice. But after a number of years, I

7 haven't seen him again, so I'm no longer sure whether he lives in Sibenik

8 or somewhere else.

9 Q. Just to follow-up on a previous anticipate you gave. You

10 identified one of the seven in Djevrska as being nicknamed "Mis." Does

11 the name Josip Elez mean anything to you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Paragraph 10, this is now the story of the young soldiers trying

14 to burn down the house with the women in it. Can you identify, by name,

15 any of the very young soldiers of the 113th Brigade who were engaging in

16 this conduct?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Further on in the paragraph : "Together with another very good

19 soldier, a citizen of Serbian ethnicity, who was in our army, I began

20 checking the military warehouse, but we found no other enemy soldiers."

21 What is the name of "this soldier of Serbian ethnicity who was in

22 our army"?

23 A. I think his last name was Despot.

24 Q. I'm sorry to do this, but let me take you back to paragraph 6. I

25 forgot to ask you about this.

Page 2991

1 In paragraph 6, last sentence: "One of my colleagues was hit by

2 a bullet and killed. Another was wounded. I went with two other

3 soldiers with the wounded soldier and pulled him on a collapsed tent back

4 towards a house in the direction of Pavasovici."

5 First, can you identify, by name, the killed soldier?

6 A. I can't.

7 Q. Can you identify, by name, the wounded soldier?

8 A. I could recognise him if I saw him, but I don't know his name.

9 Q. Can you identify the two other soldiers whom you went with to the

10 wounded soldier?

11 A. No, no.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I would not have asked this question if

13 you would not have addressed the matter of the other very good soldier.

14 Mr. Misetic asked you about who it was, the other very good

15 soldier, where you said you began checking the military warehouse but

16 found no other enemy soldiers.

17 In the next line, it reads: "We did find military equipment but

18 not soldiers."

19 Could you tell me what kind of military equipment you found in

20 that warehouse?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are talking about the military

22 depot.

23 There were certain armoured vehicles that were no longer fit for

24 use, armoured military vehicles, intended for transportation of troops.

25 I also recall there were some elements of cannons; but all in all, the

Page 2992

1 amount of weaponry in the depot was not as high as it used to be.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

4 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

5 Q. Following up on that question, you identified this good soldier

6 as last name Despot. Do you know if his first name is Ratko?

7 A. I think so.

8 Q. Do you know what battalion he was a part of?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Paragraph 13, first sentence: "Later, I think it was the same

11 day of August 1995" -- "of 6 August 1995, our same group of seven

12 volunteers went through Kistanje."

13 Can you tell us the names of any or all of the seven volunteers

14 whom you went through Kistanje with?

15 A. In addition to the one I mentioned already nicknamed "Mis,"

16 Mouse, I can't recall any other names. I'm not even sure whether Despot

17 was one of them.

18 Q. Same paragraph, towards the middle, I think you were asked this

19 question by the Prosecutor: "I later learned from someone in the

20 142nd Brigade that the SIS men from the 113th Brigade torched the post

21 office in Kistanje which was a ridiculous act."

22 Who was the individual from the 142nd Brigade that told you this?

23 A. I don't know who he was, and I have to say that I'm not even sure

24 whether he was a member of the 142nd Brigade. I had inferred that he was

25 from the Zadar Brigade.

Page 2993

1 Q. Paragraph 14, second sentence: "We had rejoined our unit of the

2 113th, and the people around me were different and I was not part of my

3 original platoon.

4 Can you identify, by name, any of the individuals whom you

5 describe as "the people around me" in that sentence?

6 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, there were two or three platoons.

7 I knew one person under the last name of Bavos [phoen], but I'm not sure

8 if he was in my platoon. I think he was in one of the other platoons.

9 Q. Okay. Paragraph 16, third sentences: "I heard talk amongst

10 those soldiers that some of their colleagues had gone off to rape some

11 women."

12 Can you identify, by name, the soldiers who were talking about

13 their colleagues going off to rape some women?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can you identify, by name -- let me take a step back.

16 On questioning from the Prosecutor this morning, you were asked

17 about who the commanders are in the next sentence, which is: "None of

18 the commanders of the 113th Brigade seemed to be at all perturbed by

19 this."

20 And your answer was that this was a reference to platoon

21 commanders.

22 My question is: Please identify, by name, these platoon

23 commanders.

24 A. I cannot identify them after all this time.

25 Q. Further on down in that paragraph. "I went to the house where

Page 2994

1 the mother and daughter were located; and on entering, I saw three or

2 four soldiers, one of whom I knew, and who were members of the

3 113th Brigade."

4 Can you, first, identify for us the soldier whom you say in your

5 statement you knew?

6 A. Yes. I knew him by sight, but I don't know his first name, last

7 name, or nickname.

8 Q. Well, later on in that same statement, towards the bottom of this

9 paragraph on page 10, you say: "I know who one of the soldiers was, but

10 I don't wish to mention his name."

11 Are you not giving us his name because you don't recall or

12 because you don't want to tell us who it is?

13 A. No, no. I think this was misinterpreted. I know the man by

14 sight. I don't know his name. Even now, with the best intentions, I

15 cannot tell you his name. That's the only answer I can offer. But it's

16 certainly not true that I don't wish to identify him.

17 Q. Okay. Going back up to that previous sentence about seeing the

18 three or four soldiers, I asked you about the one you say in your

19 statement that you knew. What about the other two or three soldiers, do

20 you know them by name?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you this question and, I ask you to answer

23 it "yes" or "no," without giving a name.

24 Do you know the names of either of the two women you say were

25 about to be raped? Yes or no, no names, please.

Page 2995

1 A. No.

2 Q. Same paragraph, on page 11 of the English. "There were other

3 members of the 113th Brigade who I'd heard were going to rape the woman;

4 although, it wasn't as obvious as in the first house."

5 Can you identify, by name, whom you heard this information from?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Next sentence: "Again, I argued with them and told them that I

8 would kill them if they tried to do anything stupid to the women."

9 Can you identify by name who it is you argued with?

10 A. Ne [No interpretation]

11 Q. Sir, two sentences later, you say: "This action by members of

12 the 113th Brigade shocked me, as the crimes were going to be committed by

13 people I knew and grew up with."

14 Were these people that you knew and that you grew up with?

15 A. Generally speaking, I was talking about a person I know by sight.

16 I knew him from the town. And in that sense, in Sibenik, it is quite

17 normal to speak of someone whom you know from some earlier days and say

18 that you had a grown up with them. But in that specific case, I meant a

19 person I knew by sight; although, I don't know his last name.

20 On the other hand, I was in the Sibenik Brigade at the time,

21 which is my home town brigade, and I was sorry that any member of that

22 Sibenik Brigade, which had never before tarnished its reputation, could

23 commit a folly that everyone would later regret, and that's why I put it

24 that way.

25 Q. Let's turn to a different subject now, which is the organisation

Page 2996

1 that you mentioned in your direct examination.

2 What is your function in that organisation?

3 A. I am the president of The Association of Demobilised Participants

4 of the Croatian Homeland War.

5 Q. And Mr. Ivica Petric is also a member of that organisation. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is his function in the organisation?

9 A. Secretary-General of the association.

10 Q. How many registered members does your association have?

11 A. We used to keep records and register members, but we don't

12 anymore. I cannot tell you how large our membership is because the

13 ministry had cut off our financing, and we decided that we don't have

14 enough funds to issue membership cards and keep records anymore.

15 So, officially speaking, our association is unable to tell you

16 its membership at this moment.

17 Q. When you convene meetings of your association, is it fair to say

18 that the meetings are attended by you and Mr. Petric alone?

19 A. No way.

20 Q. Now, sir, it's a fact that the general secretary of your

21 organisation, Mr. Petric, was convicted, actually plead guilty, and was

22 convicted by Croatian courts for murdering a Serb in Zrmanja in late

23 August 1995, and that he served six years for that murder. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, that is a fact.

Page 2997

1 Q. But when Mr. Petric got released from prison, he made claims that

2 he was the victim of a cover-up. Correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And you are also away that Mr. Petric, in 2002, was interviewed

5 by the Office of the Prosecutor because you were allowed to be present

6 for that interview. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you have discussions with the Office of the Prosecutor as to

9 whether it was appropriate to have you present while they were

10 interviewing Mr. Petric?

11 A. I was not present when Mr. Petric was giving his statement. I

12 was in a different room. But we had come to that interview together,

13 officially, as representatives of the organisation.

14 Q. Well, sir, I have the witness statement which is not in e-court,

15 but the Office of the Prosecutor identifies you among the names of all

16 persons present during the interview which took place on the 4th of

17 October, 2002. The persons identified as being present, we'll not

18 identify the interpreter, but the investigators were Brian Foster and

19 Robert Casey, along with Mr. Petric and Vladimir Gojanovic.

20 Were you present for any portions of the question and answer that

21 these investigators for the Office of the Prosecutor were conducting?

22 A. Let me explain in greater detail.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... a bit late on

24 it's way. I followed it from the back bench to --

25 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

Page 2998

1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, nothing to apologise for. I just noticed that

2 the message might reach Mr. Misetic a bit late.


4 Q. Let me ask you a preliminary question before you answer that

5 question.

6 Is Mr. Petric in the gallery, present today?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I take it that you and Mr. Petric are close then?

9 A. In what sense do you mean?

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, let me allow you to explain an answer to a question that I

13 previously posed.

14 My question, again, was: Were you present for any of the

15 question and answer session during the Prosecution's interview of Ivica

16 Petric?

17 A. I would phrase it like this, and very briefly: In the first

18 session -- and you didn't actually tell me which interview with the

19 Prosecution you mean. In the first interview, we were both present as

20 representatives of the organisation which had requested a meeting with

21 Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte.

22 In the second interview we had with the Prosecution, they

23 interviewed Ivica Petric separately from me. He had his own interview

24 with the investigators.

25 Q. Okay. I'm going to take to you paragraph 24 of your statement of

Page 2999

1 2005 -- sorry, paragraph 24.

2 Towards the middle, you say: "Ivica Petric was then prosecuted

3 for the crime and told by the judge that if he didn't confess to one of

4 the killings, he would get 11 years. Mr. Petric maintained that he had

5 only shot the man in the arm and that someone else had actually killed

6 the man, but the judge said that if Petric admitted to the crime, he

7 would only get six years. So by his actions, the judge assisted in the

8 cover-up of who actually committed the crimes."

9 Is that an accurate explanation of your views of the judge's

10 actions in that trial?

11 A. I think the word "judge" is misinterpreted here. It is

12 Prosecutor Zalovic from Zadar.

13 Q. In essence, is what you're saying that the prosecutor offered

14 Mr. Petric a lower sentence if he plead guilty?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you consider that to be a cover-up?

17 A. I think this is the most perfidious thing that can be done in a

18 justice system.

19 Q. Okay. Paragraph 25, towards the middle -- let me ask you first a

20 preliminary question.

21 Mr. Petric was also a suspect in the murders in Varivode and

22 Gosici as well. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Ultimately, charges against him were dropped. Correct?

25 I take that back. He was never ultimately charged with that

Page 3000

1 crime -- with those crimes. Correct?

2 A. As far as I know, he is responsible for Zrmanja; but Zrmanja

3 belongs to the Varivode and Gosic case.

4 Q. Now towards the middle of paragraph 25.

5 MR. MISETIC: I'll ask one or two questions, and then I think a

6 break would be appropriate, Your Honour.

7 Q. It says: "The cover-up, therefore, attempted to blame those

8 seven people for the crimes in Varivode, Gosic, and in Zrmanja. The

9 government covered up the real evidence relating to these crimes, while,

10 at the same time, due to political pressure by the international

11 community was prosecuting other innocent Croatian soldiers?"

12 Can you identify by name the innocent Croatian soldiers whom you

13 say in your statement were being prosecuted?

14 A. I cannot tell you the names now. But as president of our

15 organisation, I turned over our documentation to the OTP. These

16 documents contain the names of those people, so I didn't need to memorise

17 them.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. MISETIC: A break would be appropriate now.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is an appropriate time for a break.

21 We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

25 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

Page 3001

1 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, your first witness statement in this case, or

2 first interview by the Prosecution, occurred on 4 October 2004, according

3 to your witness statement.

4 Is it correct that in the month or so prior to your first

5 interview, your organisation had been forcibly evicted by the Croatian

6 authorities from its offices in, I believe, Sibenik?

7 A. In what sense do you mean "Croatian authorities"? Can you please

8 define "authorities" because this is an important issue, as far as I'm

9 concerned.

10 Q. Let me ask the question this way: Were you evicted from your

11 offices in roughly a month before you gave your first statement to OTP;

12 and, if so, by whom?

13 A. Following a court judgement, a first-instance decision, and

14 pursuant to the request of the party, the interested party, which was the

15 Croatian Democratic Union, the time, I think was - I don't know if it was

16 exactly a month prior to - but, yes, I think before I had this interview.

17 Q. Okay. Then approximately two weeks prior to your first interview

18 with the Office of the Prosecutor, you made statements in the press.

19 MR. MISETIC: I'd like to ask Mr. Registrar, if we could have

20 1D22-0001.

21 Q. This is an article from Vjesnik in Zagreb. The title of which

22 is: "We know who is responsible for the crimes in Varivode and Gosici?"

23 The article is dated 17 September 2004 which is approximately two weeks

24 and a few days prior to your first interview.

25 MR. MISETIC: I'd ask, if we can, and if we could blow up the

Page 3002

1 original version so that the witness could read the article and have an

2 opportunity to go through it.

3 The article is in the upper left corner; I apologise.

4 Q. And you can tell me when you have had a chance to review the

5 document, and I will proceed to ask you questions, sir.

6 A. Yes, I've read it.

7 Q. Now, there's a quote right at the beginning of the article, and

8 it is attributed to you. So let me read the quote: "We will provide

9 insight into collected documents which provide evidence that the

10 then-state leadership was involved in the case Varivode and Gosici, when,

11 in 1995, 16 Serb civilians were killed only to the Chief Prosecutor of

12 The Hague Tribunal or to her commissioner, because we do not have

13 confidence in our judicial system or the public."

14 Does the article accurately reflect what you told this

15 journalist?

16 A. I think that, for the most part, it is accurate, except that what

17 was added there was "or the public."

18 Q. Okay. Very well. The next paragraph says: "On behalf of his

19 association, he sent Carla Del Ponte a request for an urgent meeting in

20 order to hand over to her the documents on the basis of which, as he

21 claims, it is evident that Franjo Tudjman, Ivan Jarnjak, Gojko Susak,

22 Miroslav Separovic, Mate Granic, Nikica Valentic, and even Ivica Racan,

23 Sima Lucin [phoen], and Ingrid Antecovic-Marinovic [phoen] can be

24 directly related to the committed genocide and crime against humanity

25 because they, as Gojanovic claims, concealed the evidence of ethnic

Page 3003

1 cleansing in Varivode and Gosici."

2 Does that that paragraph accurately reflect what you told the

3 reporter of this article, who's identified in the text as Ana Rukavina?

4 A. Yes, the late Ana Rukavina, that's correct.

5 Q. And is it, in fact, true that you sent a letter to Carla Del

6 Ponte requesting an urgent meeting?

7 A. Yes. It is true that I submitted that request, together with the

8 request to revoke the indictments against Croatian defenders.

9 Q. Was your interview on the 4th of October the result of the letter

10 that you wrote to Carla Del Ponte, if you know?

11 A. I believe so, absolutely, yes.

12 Q. So is it fair to say that you approached the Prosecution and the

13 Prosecution did not approach you?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, could I seek clarification.

16 You said that: "Together with the request to revoke the

17 indictments against Croatian defenders."

18 Which persons did you have in mind?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had in mind the persons generally

20 who were indicted before The Hague Tribunal, and who enjoyed the status

21 of Croatian defender. And based on the documents in this sense, the

22 documents that we had collected, we concluded that the greatest criminal

23 responsibility lay --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. I just wanted to know who you had

25 in mind; and since I do not know who has the status of Croatian

Page 3004

1 defenders, could you just tell us which persons you had in mind, just by

2 name.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant all the persons who were

4 connected to the homeland war, and to name them: Ante Gotovina, Markac,

5 Cermak. Those are some of the names.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Norac, all of them?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Norac, yes. But Norac is being

8 tried before domestic courts.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether that was already the case at

10 that time.

11 MR. MISETIC: That is right about exactly at that point is when

12 the 11 bis motion was granted.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't have a clear recollection of the chronology

14 of these events. So you were asking all Croatian military leaders or all

15 Croatians indicted before this Tribunal, that the indictments against

16 them would be withdrawn? I just want it know what the request was.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We requested that indictments be

18 withdrawn, the indictments which were against the accused Croatian

19 defenders who indicted by The Hague Tribunal; and since we addressed

20 Mrs. Carla Del Ponte, we were primarily oriented and we primarily meant

21 the persons who were tried before or indicted before The Hague Tribunal.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, is there any Croatian person in a leadership

23 position, whether military, whether civilian, which you consider not to

24 be a Croatian defender, or does it include all Croatians indicted before

25 this Tribunal?

Page 3005

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I consider those persons who enjoy

2 the status of the demobilised or veterans, including those who were in

3 the chain of command. You have to be aware that, at this time, it was

4 possible to issue indictments against Croatian soldiers; and because of

5 the campaign in the media at the time --

6 JUDGE ORIE: You're giving a lot of explanations. I simply want

7 to know whether, if your request would have been granted, would there

8 have been any Croatian person left indicted before this Tribunal, or

9 whether it was for all Croatians, that the indictment should be

10 withdrawn?

11 MR. MISETIC: I'm afraid there may be some miscommunication here,

12 if the Court could explain whether you're referring only to citizens of

13 the Republic of Croatia proper or Bosnian Croats, because --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I would include, as a matter of fact, all those who

15 considered themselves of Croatian nationality or Croatian ethnicity.

16 Would anyone have been left before this Tribunal if your ask had

17 been granted?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that, following that, the

19 Croats who were directly in the area where the war was fought in Croatia

20 would have been freed, and as --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

22 repeat the last portion his answer.

23 JUDGE ORIE: This takes too much time. We will try to find out,

24 perhaps at a later stage, what you actually meant but then in clear

25 terms.

Page 3006

1 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Going back to the paragraph that I read to you previously, sir,

4 the reference to Ivica Racan , Sime Lucin, and Ingrid

5 Antecovic-Marinovic, all refers to ministers in the government of Croatia

6 that took power after the 3rd of January, 2000. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. The minister, the prime minister, Ivica Racan.

8 Q. Following up on that Judge Orie was asking you, was it the intent

9 in turning over or having a meeting with the Prosecution to provide

10 evidence so an indictment could be brought against civilian leaders of

11 the Croatian government, whether prior to 3rd January 2000 or after

12 3rd January 2000?

13 A. The intention was to find the responsibility of the politicians

14 both before and after January 3rd, because these people participated in

15 concealing the evidence in the case Varivode and Gosici, and I think this

16 is a sufficient reply to your question.

17 Q. Okay. Actually, your answer leads to what my next question was

18 going to, which is: Your knowledge of concealment of evidence of crimes

19 in Varivode and Gosici comes from your knowledge of the case of

20 Mr. Petric. Is that correct?

21 A. For the most part, yes.

22 Q. Now, when you appeared for your interview -- following your

23 letter to Carla Del Ponte, when you appeared for your interview on

24 4 October, did you produce the documents that are referenced in this

25 article?

Page 3007

1 A. Yes. We brought with us seven kilograms of documents, and we

2 announced that we would do this publicly and that we would hand over

3 these documents to The Hague Tribunal.

4 I also have to add that we came for this interview based on the

5 reply that we received from Mrs. Carla Del Ponte.

6 Q. Did she write you a letter in response?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Now, this seven kilograms of documents is a lot of documents, so

9 I don't know how precise you're going to be able to be in identifying

10 what the documents are, but can you give us at least the subject matters

11 of the documents?

12 A. I can. These documents were, for the most part, in the archives,

13 the judicial archives, in Sibenik where these trials were tried. The

14 documents have to do with the crimes relating to the murder of 16

15 civilians in Varivode and Gosici and in part in Zrmanja; and, on the

16 other hand, according to these documents, six Croatian defenders were

17 accused.

18 And after a systemic campaign of concealment, we, as a Croatian

19 association of defenders, tried to direct the guilt to the highest

20 authorities of Croatia. It was our conclusion that the responsibility

21 for these crimes was practically the responsibility of the Croatian

22 Defence and Security Council which comprised the prime minister and

23 others, and you know who were members of this organisation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked to mention the subject matters of the

25 documents, then you start giving your opinion about whose responsible for

Page 3008

1 what. That is not what you were asked for.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.


4 Q. You talk about the court file. Is this the court file of

5 Mr. Petric? With Mr. Petric's case, I should say.

6 A. Yes, his case as well.

7 Q. Okay. I am going to turn to another subject now.

8 First, you identified in your statement that you were a member of

9 the 2nd Battalion of the 113th Home Guards Brigade. Correct? Do you

10 need a reference to your statement?

11 A. That's correct.

12 As far as I know I was in the 2nd Battalion, but I have to say

13 that I spent very little time there for the duration of Operation Storm

14 and a bit longer, but that's about it.

15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I forgot to ask --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, may I take it that you want to tender

17 the newspaper article?

18 Ms. Mahindaratne?

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D189, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: D189 is admitted into evidence.

23 Please proceed.


25 Q. You are in the 2nd Battalion. Can you identify, by number, the

Page 3009

1 company, platoon, and squad you were in to start Operation Storm.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I made the same mistake as sometimes

3 others do, that I went too quick.

4 If you look at the transcript, you will see that I asked for the

5 number, and then it went off so quickly.

6 Mr. Registrar, let's repeat it. I think it was D139?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it was D189.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 89, yes, at 50. D189 is now officially recorded as

9 being admitted into evidence in the right speed.

10 I apologise.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. I believe my last question was if could you please identify your

14 company, platoon, and squad by number.

15 A. The squad numbered ten soldiers --

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we have a misunderstanding

17 again. Let me take it step by step.

18 What company were you a member of?

19 A. I cannot answer that question with precision.

20 Q. What platoon were you a member of?

21 A. I can also not answer that question either.

22 Q. And I assume you can't recall what squad you were part of, then,

23 either. Correct?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. Now, I want to talk a little bit about your time in the

Page 3010

1 4th Guards Brigade.

2 You left the 4th Guards Brigade at your own request because you

3 said you were having personal problems. Is that correct?

4 A. That's not true.

5 Q. Okay.

6 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up, please,

7 1D22-0364.

8 Mr. Registrar, if could you just keep turning the pages. I'm not

9 sure what order the pages are in, in e-court, so I will tell you when to

10 stop. Okay. That's it. Then the B/C/S version is going to be in a

11 handwritten document, page 3.

12 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, I would ask to you take a look at this, and see if

13 you recognise your signature on the bottom of this document?

14 A. Yes, that's my signature.

15 Q. Please read the document, and tell me when you've finished

16 reading it.

17 A. Mm-hm. Yes, I've read it.

18 Q. Is that the letter that you sent requesting that you be relieved

19 of your military obligation in the 4th Guards Brigade?

20 A. I believe that this is the original document; but up to this

21 moment, I haven't really seen it. I practically forgot about it.

22 Q. Do you recall any -- in the second sentence, it says: "For a

23 long period of time, I have been facing problems with enduring this

24 profession."

25 Do you have any recollection of what the problems were that you

Page 3011

1 were referring to?

2 A. Yes, absolutely I remember. When you said "personal problems,"

3 personal problems means family problems, but I also was examined in the

4 centre -- health centre in Split. I had a condition, I had a high blood

5 pressure and heart problems, and I didn't want to seek treatment within

6 the brigade. So I decided to write this request and ask to be relieved

7 of my professional duties within the 4th Guards Brigade --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1st Split Brigade.


10 Q. Now, from the time you began your compulsory military service in

11 1993, I believe, until your departure from the 4th Guards Brigade, is it

12 true that you had been subjected to disciplinary measures four times for

13 abandoning your unit?

14 A. I don't recall any disciplinary measures being imposed because we

15 were stationed in Crvana Luka near Pakostenje [phoen]. And it didn't

16 involve absence without leave as you implied, but, rather my going out in

17 the evening while on leave, where as I extended the hours of my leave or

18 it was not approved beforehand.

19 MR. MISETIC: Still within this document, Mr. Registrar, I think

20 I'm looking for a document 10 September 1993.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, would you like to tender the other

22 document?

23 MR. MISETIC: It is all part of the same e-court document.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It is all part of the same e-court, yes.

25 MR. MISETIC: Next page, page 4, of the English.

Page 3012

1 Q. If could you read that document, Mr. Gojanovic. This is now

2 during the period of time where he were serving as a conscript. It's

3 dated 10 September 1993.

4 If you read below the part that says, "Statement," it

5 specifically says: "The person named above arbitrarily abandoned the

6 unit on 5 September 1993 and returned on 6 September 1993."

7 Do you recall that incident?

8 A. Yes, I remember it.

9 Q. Do you recall being meted out, confinement in military prison

10 lasting three days?

11 A. Yes, I recall.

12 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn, Mr. Registrar, to page 7 of this

13 document. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, that's the wrong one. 1D22-0378.

14 That's it.

15 Q. If you could take a look at this document, Mr. Gojanovic, it's

16 dated 13 April 1994. This is now while you are a member of the

17 4th Guards Brigade. It's a disciplinary measured issued by Brigadier

18 Zamir Krsticevic. Again, you will note that it says you were disciplined

19 a second time for arbitrarily abandoning your unit on 26 March 1994.

20 Do you recall that, sir?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you ever recall receiving a reduction in pay of 10 percent for

23 one month?

24 A. No.

25 MR. MISETIC: The next document is page 8, Mr. Registrar.

Page 3013

1 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, this is a document dated 15 July 1994, again while

2 you were a member of the 4th Guards Brigade. It's a third disciplinary

3 measure again signed by Brigadier-General Krsticevic. If you could read

4 that over, please, it says you, again, arbitrarily abandoned your unit,

5 12 June, 1994. Do you recall that incident?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And based on your prior answer, I assume that you do not

8 recall -- actually, let me change it. It is a different disciplinary

9 measure.

10 You received a reduction in salary of 10 per cent for three

11 months now. Do you recall that disciplinary measure being meted out?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Okay.

14 MR. MISETIC: Let's turn to the next one, please:

15 8 September 1994; 1D22-0368.

16 Q. If you could take a look at that, sir.

17 MR. MISETIC: Page 6 of the English, I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar.

18 Q. This is your fourth disciplinary measure. Again, it says you're

19 being disciplined because of the fact that on 23 July 1994, you

20 arbitrarily abandoned your unit, although you were assign to the guard

21 service. As we can note, the discipline against you is escalating. You

22 are now being having your salary reduced 20 per cent for one month.

23 Do you recall that incident?

24 A. No. I don't recall that incident.

25 Q. Do you recall ever having your pay reduced by 20 per cent?

Page 3014

1 A. I don't.

2 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'd ask to have this marked, and I

3 tender it into evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As D190, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: D190 is admitted into evidence.


10 Q. I have some questions regarding your participation in the

11 113th Brigade.

12 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to ask the registrar to call up

13 1D22-0147.

14 Q. This is a document prepared by the commander of the 113th

15 Brigade, Mr. Kotlar. He was asked to put together a roster of the

16 participants of the 113th Brigade -- I should say the soldiers of the

17 113th who participated in Operation Storm.

18 Can you see that? It is dated 21 August 1995.

19 A. Yes, I can see that.

20 Q. Commander Kotlar, and have I a hard copy for you which I will

21 give to you, together a roster of 2.237 soldiers of the 113th Brigade,

22 and your name is not on there. So I would ask you to check for yourself.

23 MR. MISETIC: I also have one for the Bench, if the Bench wishes

24 to look through the hard copy.

25 Q. And I would ask you if you have an explanation for why are you

Page 3015

1 not identified by Commander Kotlar as having participated with the

2 113th during Operation Storm?

3 A. I don't have an explanation because it is not my fault, but I

4 received a medal for Operation Storm from the 4th Split Brigade as if I

5 had been in the area of Dubrovnik. I never went to collect the medal

6 because I thought that if I had not been in that area, I cannot receive a

7 medal from the 4th Split Brigade, in which I did not participate during

8 Operation Storm.

9 At that time, I was a member of the 113th Brigade. If I'm not

10 recorded here, I don't think it is my fault.

11 Q. Well, sir, the medal you received was actually a medal that was

12 issued in 2000 by President Mesic, subsequently, for your participation

13 in Operation Storm in the 4th Guards Brigade, according to the

14 description for why you got the medal. Isn't that correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. You never received a medal between 1995 and 2000 for any

17 participation as a member of the 113th. Correct?

18 A. Never.

19 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would ask that the document be

20 marked and admitted into evidence.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of the document is including the list

23 attached. Let me just check.

24 MR. MISETIC: It is 78 pages, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, to have 78 pages of names in evidence, is this

Page 3016

1 not a matter which the parties could easily agree upon whether the name

2 of this witness appears on the list, yes or no, and perhaps at one page,

3 because the copy takes half a wood to --

4 MR. MISETIC: I will discuss it with the Prosecution during the

5 next break, and see if there can be a stipulation --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, we mark the document for

7 identification, and I strongly suggest to the parties that either they

8 agree on the matter or that the admission into evidence would be limited

9 to the cover page, which sets out the what the list of names is about and

10 then perhaps the first page, just as an example of how this list was

11 prepared.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D191, marked

13 for identification.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

15 MR. MISETIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

17 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I request a clarification from

19 Mr. Misetic regarding the last question?

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't understand the question, you can. The

21 last question was - let me just have a look - a while ago.

22 MR. MISETIC: It's line 12 and 13 on page --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see it.

24 Yes. If the question is not clear to you, please tell us what is

25 not clear. If, however, the question is clear to you, I would like you

Page 3017

1 to answer the question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is not clear to me is this:

3 Does Mr. Misetic believe that I got the medal, or that it was never

4 awarded to me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The question was not about whether a medal was

6 awarded to you, but whether you received a medal between 1995 and 2000

7 for your participation as a member of the 113th; so not medals for other

8 activities, but whether you did receive or did not receive. The

9 suggestion that you did not receive it for your activities in the 113th.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. I can confirm

11 that. I did not receive any medals for activity in the 113th Brigade.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D22-0350.

14 Q. Now, in addition to the fact that Commander Kotlar did not

15 include you on the roster of participants of the 113th in Operation

16 Storm, on the 3rd of September, 1995, he actually sent a request to the

17 military police to find you and have you brought to the unit.

18 I'd ask to you take a look at that, and your name is listed at

19 number 29.

20 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, I think it's on the next page of the

21 English.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, probably. First of all, I

23 don't remember this document. I had never seen it before.

24 Second, I was never aware of this fact.

25 Third, in my records, there was one address and I lived at

Page 3018

1 another address, and that's probably the reason why I am on this list.

2 The military police never came to get me, and I'm certain about that. I

3 wouldn't have forgotten it.


5 Q. Well, if you were actually in your unit, it wouldn't matter what

6 your house address was, would it?

7 A. Yes. Before that, I was in the 4th Split Brigade, and then --

8 Q. If you were in your unit on or about the 3rd of September, 1995,

9 Commander Kotlar would not have had issue a request for your apprehension

10 regardless of what your home address is. Correct?

11 A. Until then, I wasn't even in the 113th Brigade, before the

12 mobilisation.

13 Q. Sir, the date of the document is the 3rd of September, 1995.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

16 A. On that day, I was mobilised into the 113th Brigade.

17 Q. Had you not been mobilised --

18 A. Before that, I had demobed from the 4th Split Brigade, and there

19 was an interval of more than a month between the two.

20 Q. I'm not sure where our miscommunication is here, sir.

21 Paragraph 3 your statement says, you were mobilised to join the

22 113th Sibenik Reserve Brigade on the 2nd of August 1995. This is it a

23 document dated 3rd of September 1995 --

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. -- a month later where they are seeking your apprehension to

Page 3019

1 bring you to the unit. And in addition to that, Commander Kotlar on the

2 21st of August does not include you on a list of over 2000 members who

3 participated in Storm. So I'm asking you if you can explain this to us.

4 A. Could you repeat again the relevant date, the date which is in

5 dispute?

6 You said 3rd September 1995, about forceable mobilisation and the

7 bringing me in. This is not possible. I don't know what this means.

8 This is totally incomprehensible to me. I had been mobilised in the

9 113th, prior to this, for the Operation Storm. After that, I was

10 demobilised. I don't know what this is about.

11 This is completely incomprehensible, the date and everything

12 else.

13 Q. Can you tell us when you were demobilised, according to your

14 recollection?

15 A. Well, you can check that with the military department. You can

16 get the exact date because you had the documents of the military

17 department. I told you a moment ago I didn't spend much time with the

18 113th Brigade, just in the Operation Storm and a short time before that.

19 After that, I was demobilised. I don't think anything about this

20 document, and I can't us understand it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, at the same time where you are

22 challenging the official documents that are put to you, you, instead of

23 answering Mr. Misetic's question, refer to official documents.

24 Apparently, there seems to be some confusion. So, therefore, would you

25 please answer the question when you demobilised from the 113th Brigade.

Page 3020

1 That was the question that was put to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did not allow me the time or

3 the possibility to look up my own documentation and find the date when I

4 was demobilised. I was not prepared for this.

5 As far as this document is concerned, it is not a document from

6 the military department. The only authorative document can be from the

7 military department, and it would be the one from the military police.

8 This one is from the military police.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to keep matters simple. In your

10 statement, you say you were mobilised on the 2nd of August in the 113th.

11 Now, apart from the fact that you were not reported as someone to

12 be decorated as having participated in Operation Storm on the 16th of

13 August, and apart from the fact that your name appears on a list of the

14 3rd of September to be brought to your unit, tell us how long were you

15 active in the 113th.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I was active for a little

17 other a month.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That would bring us close to the 3rd of September.

19 You have written this note about being relieved of your military

20 duties, which is a note without a date. Do you remember when you --

21 MR. MISETIC: That is related to his service in the 4th Guards

22 Brigade.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, the 4th. Then I'm mistake there.

24 Perhaps, Mr. Misetic, you can give follow-up on how he left the

25 113th.

Page 3021

1 Yes, Mr. Misetic.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. MISETIC: We'd like to make clear, Your Honour, that the

4 handwritten note was from 1994 and was his request to leave the

5 4th Gaurds Brigade.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Although, it doesn't bear a date.

7 MR. MISETIC: It does have a date. Unfortunately, it is cut off

8 in the copy that we got. On the official record, it says --

9 JUDGE ORIE: So, for me, it has no date, but the original has a

10 date. The Chamber always prefers to have the full copy. You may notice

11 that I was looking for a date, as you may have noticed.

12 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


15 Q. And I also need to clarify this is not a military police

16 document. It is a document in front of you, sir, of Commander Kotlar, as

17 the author of the document, who is sending it to the military police

18 requesting that --

19 A. Police.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I have no idea what that is about.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... what the Presiding Judge is

23 interested to know, which is the circumstances surrounding your eventual

24 demobilisation or, perhaps more broadly, your departure from the 113th.

25 Can you explain the circumstances under which you ultimately left

Page 3022

1 the 113th?

2 A. I can. I left the 113th Brigade after the completion of

3 Operation Storm. I left, in fact, several days after Operation Storm was

4 finished because we rotated in shifts in Donji Srb. And after a month,

5 like most people who participated in the operation, I requested that I be

6 demobilised. That's the whole story.

7 Q. Do you recall ever being apprehended by the military police in

8 September of 1995?

9 A. No, not at all. I have absolutely no recollection of that.

10 Nobody brought me in, nobody apprehended me.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. MISETIC: I'm prepared to move on to another subject, Your

13 Honour.


15 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... to tender it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You repeatedly said that this is a document

17 originating from Commander Kotlar, I think. I have not found that yet on

18 the document itself.

19 MR. MISETIC: If there is one more page -- up top you, you see

20 the heading where it is coming from?


22 MR. MISETIC: The 113th Brigade HV, Sibenik.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You related to a person, but it is related to

24 a unit.

25 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

Page 3023

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Thank you.

2 MR. MISETIC: If can I have this marked and tendered, Your

3 Honour, then I tender it into evidence.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D192, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: D192 is admitted into evidence.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Now, let's go through your statement in the events that you took

11 about in that statement, and let's go back to paragraph 7 of your

12 statement, 2005.

13 You recall this morning I asked you --

14 MR. MISETIC: It's on page 4 of the English, Your Honours,

15 towards the bottom. There is a reference to a tank commander being

16 considered with his commander for this mission.

17 Q. This morning, sir, I asked you to identify that commander, and

18 you were able to give his name. You said his nickname was Sudac. I

19 asked you whether Radoslav Juricev was familiar. You agreed.

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MISETIC: I would like to call up 1D22-0088. That is a

22 witness statement obtained by the Gotovina Defence of Radoslav Juricev.

23 All of the statements that I'm about to show you are notarized

24 and signed.

25 If we could go to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

Page 3024

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I wish to seek a

2 clarification from the Defence counsel as to whether he is intending to

3 put statements made by witnesses the Defence team has interviewed, who we

4 don't know whether they would be here to testify, to this witness.

5 MR. MISETIC: Depending on his answers to the questions, we're

6 prepared to call the witnesses, if necessary. At this point, I would

7 like to confront him, though, with the statements of the people who

8 participated in these events.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, it depends on the results

10 apparently, which sounds rather logical, isn't it.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I will see how it goes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's do that. You said that the witness

13 confirmed the name. I think he said, "I think." Yes. So it is not a

14 real firm confirmation.

15 Please proceed.


17 Q. You used the nickname Sudac, and I don't know if caught on the

18 first that Mr. Juricev identified his own nickname as Sudac.

19 I'd ask you to read that statement, paragraphs 4 and 5.

20 At paragraph 5, Mr. Juricev, Sudac, says explicitly: "I know

21 every man who was with me. I am certain that Vladimir Gojanovic was

22 neither assigned to me, nor that he was driving in my tank. I am certain

23 that he wasn't at the tanks in Gornje Bicane either."

24 And you will note at paragraph 7, he actually describes the axis

25 of attack that you identify in your statement at paragraph 7, about the

Page 3025

1 tank group heading towards Sonkovici?

2 A. Yes. Which question --

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... is it possible, sir, that,

4 in fact, you were not part of the tank group that went on the attack

5 towards Sonkovici?

6 A. No. It's not possible. I was on that tank, but it is a fact

7 that Sudac and I did not know each other at the time. It is quite

8 natural that at that moment, since he didn't know me, he simply didn't

9 register me like I didn't register many other people and didn't know

10 their names. It was only after the war that I practically met with

11 Sudac, officially.

12 Q. Paragraph 13 of his statement, I take your point.

13 MR. MISETIC: Paragraph 13 of his statement, which is on the next

14 page, Mr. Registrar.

15 Once again, Your Honour, I notice that it says confidential

16 privileged on the top. However, I waive it on all these statements, and

17 I will ensure that it doesn't happen again.

18 Q. "During the combat activities in Operation Storm, I didn't see

19 the current chairman of the HURBDR, Vladimir Gojanovic. He wasn't with

20 me or in my unit."

21 I understand the point you made, though, in your answer, sir, so

22 let me move on to the next portion of your statement, which is the story

23 about you assisting a wounded individual. That is in paragraph 6 of your

24 statement, the last sentence.

25 I asked you this morning to identify either the person that was

Page 3026

1 killed or the person that was wounded. You said you didn't know the

2 names. Let me first show you a document at tab 5, so we can identify for

3 the Court --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, before we move on, what is your

5 intention as far as the statement of a person nicknamed Sudac is

6 concerned.

7 MR. MISETIC: If necessary, Your Honour, we will call him in the

8 Defence case, if the Court wants. I am, obviously, going to tender the

9 statement and ask that it be moved in evidence, and I will leave it in

10 the hands of the Court to decide what you wish to do.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we have, of course, a potential problem

12 in the field of 92 bis, 92 ter.

13 MR. MISETIC: I understand, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to invite, while it is now on the

15 record, that you tender it. I think the document should be marked for

16 identification.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I invite the parties to see whether there is any

19 practical way of resolving this, either to put it in a different way in

20 the record; because if we would admit this into evidence, then it would

21 be most likely the whole of the document, without the possibility for the

22 Prosecution to cross-examine this person on these matters.

23 If this is a practical way of agreeing of, for example, agreeing

24 that a statement was given to I don't know exactly to whom, but to the

25 Defence, which says, and then limit ourselves to the portions you read to

Page 3027

1 the witness; then I think for the purposes of this moment, that might be

2 enough, but I leave it to the parties at this moment to see whether they

3 can reach a procedural agreement on how to deal with this document.

4 If not, of course, then the Chamber will decide the matter.

5 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour. Just for the record, so we don't

6 spend time on this later, I have several such statement. I will agree

7 with the procedure Your Honour has just laid out, and I will attempt to

8 work out some agreement with the Prosecution and see if we can --

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you already could take care that those portions

10 which are of core relevance for your questioning, that you read them out

11 literally perhaps, so that at least we have that on the record, which

12 might facilitate solutions.

13 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D193, marked

16 for identification.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

19 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up --

20 Q. As I said before, Mr. Gojanovic, I would like to show you the

21 official documents about the dead and the two injured in the 113th in the

22 incident to which you refer.

23 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, it's 1D22-0036.

24 Q. This is a report from Commander Kotlar, reporting on casualties

25 suffered by the 113th.

Page 3028

1 MR. MISETIC: If we can go to the next page, please.

2 Q. And you'll see the name Davor Perisa and the description of the

3 wounding incident which seems to match up with the description in your

4 statement at paragraph 6.

5 It says: "This person was shot through his left upper leg while

6 participating in an attack on Gracac in the village of Pavasovici.

7 So one of the individuals was Davor Perisa?

8 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to the next page.

9 Q. The second individual is identified as Boris Filipovic. Again,

10 the description is on 4 August 1995 in the village of Pavasovici:

11 "During the attack of the HV 113th, the enemy fired at our targets; and

12 at one point, the soldier referred to above was shot through his right

13 lower leg."

14 Again, it is signed by Commander Kotlar.

15 Third page, this is now the diseased. His name was Boris Garma,

16 and you will note that your description of how he was killed differs from

17 description given by Commander Kotlar.

18 You say, at paragraph 7, that he was killed -- was hit by a

19 bullet and killed. Commander Kotlar says: "On 4 August 1995, during the

20 attack on Gracac, on the way between Pavasovici and Gracac, the soldier

21 referred to above was killed. The enemy employed every available weapon

22 and pieces. At one point, a mortar mine impacted two metres from Boris

23 Garma, and killed him on the spot."

24 A. Your question?

25 Q. Let me take you now to the statements of the two wounded

Page 3029

1 individuals, Mr. Perisa and Mr. Filipovic?

2 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would asked that this be marked and

3 tendered into evidence.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D194, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: D194 is admitted into evidence.

8 MR. MISETIC: The next document, Mr. Registrar, is 1D22-0097. It

9 is it the witness statement of Davor Perisa taken by the Gotovina

10 Defence. It is a witness statement dated 9 May 2008.

11 The next page, Mr. Registrar, please.

12 Q. At paragraph 2: During Operation Storm, I was a member of the

13 3rd Battalion of the 113th Infantry Brigade."

14 I would first ask you to take note of the fact that the witness

15 says he was a member of the 3rd Battalion, not the 2nd Battalion, as you

16 say you in your statement, that you were a member of.

17 Paragraph 4: "On 4 August 1995, at around 0900 hours, I was

18 wounded from an infantry weapon. "

19 Paragraph 5: "I was rescued by the men who were around me."

20 Paragraph 6: "The men who rescued me bear the surname Bratic.

21 One was from Sonkovici, the other Pira Martovsi [phoen]. I do not recall

22 Vladimir Gojanovic being present or helping getting me out. I only

23 recall the aforementioned men by the surname Bratic.

24 MR. MISETIC: I will ask him a question after I show him the

25 second statement, Your Honour. I think it would be probably appropriate

Page 3030

1 that I have this marked, which is consistent with the --

2 JUDGE ORIE: This is one of the documents just to be marked for

3 identification, Ms. Mahindaratne.

4 Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D195, marked

6 for identification.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

8 MR. MISETIC: The second statement, Mr. Registrar, is 1D22-0121.

9 Q. You will note on this one, Mr. Gojanovic, this is the statement

10 of Boris Filipovic, one of the two men injured. The statement is dated

11 9 May, 2008.

12 MR. MISETIC: If we can turn the page, Mr. Registrar.

13 Q. Again, in paragraph 2, please note: "During Operation Storm, I

14 was a member of the 3rd Battalion, 3rd Company. The commander of the

15 company was Dragan Rak. I occupied the post of platoon commander in that

16 company."

17 Paragraph 3: "On 4 August 1995, I was at the front line ready

18 for the commencement of the operation. That day, I was wounded at around

19 0900 hours. I suffered a gunshot wound from an infantry weapon. At

20 place in time that I was wounded, I was surrounded by people I knew.

21 Vladimir Gojanovic was not among them. I am certain that I was rescued

22 by the members of my platoon, who were originally from Bradisa, a

23 settlement I come from as well. These persons were Bozo, Saro, Covo,

24 Ive, Babic. These men were with me throughout the war."

25 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, just for the record, we left the it

Page 3031

1 in the statement the way the witness said the names. He said he did not

2 recall the surnames of the individuals. That is why I did not wish to

3 suggest to him any names.

4 Q. First, Mr. Gojanovic, on paragraph 4, are you ever referred to by

5 anyone as any of the following names: Bozo, Saro, Covo, Ive, or Babic?

6 A. I know Covo.

7 Q. No, no. Did you ever go by the nickname of Bozo, Saro, Covo,

8 Ive, or Babic?

9 A. No, certainly not.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Nor could anyone call me that.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I ask that this are be marked for

14 identification as well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President [Microphone not

17 activated]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if may address you as

19 a witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think my microphone is [Microphone not

22 activated]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to put it on the record. It seems to me

25 that I take that you do not object against the document to be marked for

Page 3032

1 identification? If you're not, then I will put that on the record as

2 well.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I want to say that I would object to it being

4 tendered, but certainly not to be marked as identification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That is the only thing Mr. Misetic requested. So

6 this is the third now in a row of documents, marked for identification,

7 subject to further discussions between the parties.

8 Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D196, marked

10 for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12 MR. MISETIC: [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


15 Q. I will show you one more --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have the

17 break now?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any specific reason for that, because we

19 usually go on for another 20 minutes. But if you say you need a sanitary

20 stop, it's fine.

21 THE WITNESS: Toilet.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We have a break now and resume at 12.30.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

Page 3033

1 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, I showed you two of the statements -- the two

3 statements of the two individuals who were actually wounded by

4 Pavasovici, which you describe in your statement at paragraph 6.

5 Both of them declare that they have no recollection of you being

6 present. Is it possible, sir, that, in fact, you were not present at the

7 time that these two soldiers were wounded and evacuated?

8 A. As far as I recall, you showed the document a minute ago, a

9 little while ago, which showed that there was an individual who was

10 killed and there were four or five wounded soldiers in that operation.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, the question simply is: "Is it

12 possible that you were not present at that event?" It's not a time to

13 start arguing with Mr. Misetic, but it is a question. Please answer the

14 question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. I will provide the

16 answer.

17 It is not possible.


19 Q. Thank you. Now, next I want to discuss --

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Microphone not activated]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, the microphone is switched off.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: A number of microphones for the whole of the

25 courtroom is limited to five. I'll switch mine off.

Page 3034

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Mr. Misetic suggested to the witness that he was shown two

3 statements of the two individuals who were actually wounded. Now what we

4 saw here were two statements of two people who claim they were wounded in

5 this incident. As to whether they are the actual casualties, the persons

6 who were wounded and whom Mr. Gojanovic heard we don't know that. It is

7 not a fact so far, which is where we got the names.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It was a strong suggestion in Mr. Misetic's question

9 that these were the same persons as described by the witness, and it was

10 put in that way to the witness.

11 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I believe, before I put the statements

12 in, I gave the official report of the commander of the 113th Brigade,

13 where he identifies the casualties by name and the individual incidents

14 at Pavosovic, which is where we got the names of the individuals

15 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Ms. Mahindaratne says it is not a

16 fact, but it's what someone claims to be fact. I mean, these are

17 official documents. I couldn't say that I have never seen documents that

18 did not fully reflect the truth. I'm not saying or not suggesting that

19 this is the case, but Ms. Mahindaratne is right; and, at the same time,

20 we are in a situation where it was totally appropriate for you to put it

21 in this way to the witness.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Now, sir, in your statement, you say you were a member of the

25 2nd Battalion of the 113th, and this is at paragraph 6 of your statement,

Page 3035

1 right at the beginning: "Our axis of attack was towards Sonkovici, and

2 just one battalion, namely, the 2nd Battalion, was involved on that axis

3 of attack."

4 You go on to the top of the next page, and it says: "The

5 battalion consisted of about 100 men and had artillery support."

6 Now, sir, just as a preliminary matter, how many men are in a

7 battalion?

8 A. A battalion can number up to 200 to 300 men.

9 Q. Now, with respect to this axis of attack, in your statement that

10 you as a member of the 2nd Battalion participated, and I believe your

11 statement is clear that just one battalion participated, I'd like to show

12 you a statement of the commander of the 3rd Battalion.

13 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could please call up

14 1D22-0072. It is the statement of the commander of the 3rd Battalion,

15 113th Guards Brigade, Dragan Rak, R-a-k. This is a statement taken

16 8 May 2008. If we could go to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

17 Q. Right at the beginning, he says: "This is a voluntary statement

18 concerning my participation in Operation Storm during which I was

19 commander of the 3rd Infantry Battalion of the 113th Brigade, which

20 consisted of reserve members who were mobilised for Operation Storm?"

21 And the third paragraph: "At approximately 05:00 hours, we

22 launched our attack from our initial positions from Pavasovici towards

23 Gracac and Sonkovici. Due to the heavy enemy resistance from Sonkovici

24 mainly by use of anti-air guns and mortar guns, our attack decreased in

25 pace; and after the death of soldier Boris Garma, and wounded soldiers

Page 3036

1 Boris Filipovic and Davor Perisa, offensive operations were halted. We

2 proceeded to withdraw our soldiers and take care of our wounded."

3 MR. MISETIC: The next page, Mr. Registrar.

4 Q. Last paragraph beginning with the second sentence: "I know

5 Vladimir Gojanovic personally from 1992 or 1993 when he was a conscript

6 member of the 113th Brigade, but I never saw him during Operation Storm,

7 nor did I see him during the remainder of the events described in this

8 statement."

9 First question, sir, is: The 2nd Battalion of the 113th did not

10 go on the attack towards Sonkovici. Isn't that correct?

11 A. Your Honour, if I can provide an answer that would not confine --

12 be confined to yes or no, because I have to explain a very delicate fact.

13 According to the statement of this witness, I was a member of the

14 113th Brigade and that this witness knew me at this time.

15 According to the documents by -- provided by the Defence council

16 Mr. Mikulicic, it is claimed that I was never a member of the

17 113th Brigade. So I think that this statement of this witness is totally

18 illegitimate. On the other hand, the most important fact that I would

19 like to point out --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Whether legitimate or not is not for a witness to

21 decide. Your comments, because it is comments on others rather than

22 answering the question of Mr. Misetic, might not be fully correct where

23 you said that these documents showed that you never were. I think what

24 the documents, at least as I understood them, was that you never

25 participated on -- or you were not reported on the 16th of August to have

Page 3037

1 participated as an active member of the 113th; and that on the 3rd of

2 September, that they were trying to get you to your unit, which is not

3 the same as what you tell us now.

4 So, please, answer the question, not necessarily with a yes or

5 no, but without further comment the on what others said.

6 Please proceed.


8 Q. Do you need me to repeat the question, sir?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The 2nd Battalion of the 113th Brigade did not conduct an attack

11 towards Sonkovici. Correct?

12 A. As far as I can recall, it was the 2nd Battalion. But you have

13 to take into account that I had just been mobilised and that I

14 practically did not really know the exact number of my battalion, nor did

15 I know the men or they me. So you have to keep that in mind.

16 Q. So, now, is it your testimony, sir, that, in fact, you don't know

17 which battalion you belonged to?

18 A. In view of the circumstances, it is possible that I misnamed the

19 battalion, that I used the wrong number, because I was mobilised on that

20 day and went into action. So I didn't know the men or the number of the

21 battalion, but I know for certain that this was a battalion that was

22 mobilised -- the reserve forces that were mobilised. The first two

23 battalions did not do this. And this 3rd Battalion of the 113th which

24 was the one where the -- which was the one that included the mobilised

25 reservists before the action, that was the one.

Page 3038

1 Q. You were not under the command of Commander Rak, were you?

2 A. I do not know personally the commanders above me, except the ones

3 that I already mentioned in my statement. How could I know when I was

4 there for the first time on the first day? It was as if I was dropped

5 from a helicopter.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, would you allow me one clarifying

7 question.

8 In 1992 and 1993, were you, because I don't see that in paragraph

9 2 of the statement, were you a conscript member of the 113th Brigade? In

10 your statement you say that, in November 1993, you joined the 4th Guards

11 Brigade. But prior to that, were you ever a member of the 113th Brigade?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

14 Please proceed.


16 Q. Witness, based on that answer, isn't it true that you did not

17 serve your compulsory military service in the Yugoslav army?

18 A. Is it true that I did not serve my cull sore military service in

19 the Yugoslav People's Army.

20 Q. And it isn't true, that as a result of that, you had to actually

21 serve your compulsory service in 1993 in the Croatian army. Correct?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. And before you could get to the 4th Guards Brigade, you had to

24 serve your compulsory service in the brigade of your local area, which

25 was the 113th Sibenik Brigade. Is that right?

Page 3039

1 A. No.

2 Q. Where did you serve your compulsory military service?

3 A. My initial training was in Sinj; and then I was reassigned to

4 Zagreb, specialised to anti-nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare;

5 and then following this, I was in a specialised brigade for professional

6 soldiers. Let me just try to recall the place where this was. This was

7 the centre for professional military training in Delnica.

8 Q. And what unit were you a formally a part of when you were doing

9 your training in Sinj?

10 A. In Sinj, there was a centre for basic training and that falls

11 under the Sinj area, the Sinj Brigade. After that, I was transferred to

12 Zagreb for two months where I was a member of a unit attached to the

13 anti-chemical, biological, and nuclear warfare. And after that, I went

14 to the centre for training of professional brigades. And after that, I

15 was assigned to the 4th, which means that before Operation Storm, I was

16 never a member of the 113th Brigade.

17 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I think I need to mark this one for

18 identification as well, the statement of Dragan Rak.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Mahindaratne, I take it that you do not

20 object against having it marked for identification.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D197, marked

25 for identification.

Page 3040

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now I'm going to show you -- you have now testified that it was

5 possible that you were actually a member of the 3rd Battalion moving

6 towards Sonkovici. So I'd like to show you two more statements quickly.

7 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, this is 1D22-0313.

8 Q. This is a statement of Srecko Grubisic, deputy commander of the

9 2nd Company of the 3rd Infantry Battalion of the 113th. A witness

10 statement dated 8 May 2008.

11 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

12 Q. At paragraph 2, deputy commander Grubisic states: "During

13 Operation Storm, I was deputy commander of the 2nd Company of the

14 3rd Infantry Battalion of the 113th Brigade."

15 At paragraph 5, he again describes the wounding incident, and

16 says: "As we did not have artillery support, we withdrew to the village

17 of Pavasovici. During our withdrawal, Davor Perisa was wounded. There

18 was one company from the 1st Battalion which withdrew the wounded Perisa.

19 Next statement.

20 MR. MISETIC: If I could have this marked for identification as

21 well, Mr. President.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D198, marked

Page 3041

1 for identification.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It keeps that status.

3 MR. MISETIC: Before I move on to the next statement, let me read

4 to you what he says at paragraph 10: "As deputy commander of the

5 company, I did not see Vladimir Gojanovic during any of these activities,

6 nor during the conduction of the operation. Considering Gojanovic served

7 in a guards brigade and finished specialised guards brigade training, I'm

8 sure we would have made him section commander had he been there. The

9 recruiting office would surely have indicated that a man who completed

10 guards brigade training was entering our unit."

11 Actually, I did want to ask you this question, because this is

12 why I asked you this question first this morning.

13 You agreed with me that, as someone wearing -- if you were

14 wearing the uniform of the 4th Guards Brigade, you would have been

15 conspicuous to people. Can you offer us an explanation for why

16 commanders of the 3rd Battalion don't -- might not recognise you or

17 recall you being a participant in these activities?

18 A. My explanation is that nobody knew me. None of these people knew

19 me because I had just been mobilised into their brigade on the eve of

20 that operation. I wore a uniform that was rather special, relative to

21 infrared rays. What was conspicuous about it was that, on the left chest

22 sleeve, I still had the insignia of the 4th Split Brigade, but I had no

23 insignia whatsoever on the sleeve, either of the 113th or the 4th.

24 But they probably did not notice any of that because everybody

25 had their hands full just before the operation; plus, we had no line-ups

Page 3042

1 of that kind, and it was not logical to appoint a newcomer to be a

2 section commander or a platoon commander. I think that logic is

3 understandable even to those who had never been in the army.

4 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D22-0321. This

5 is the statement of Jordan Tudic, deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry

6 Battalion of the 113th Brigade.

7 Q. You mentioned -- when I asked for names this morning, you mention

8 as nickname of Covo. Do you know if that was Mr. Tudic's nickname was

9 Covo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So now we're talking about --

12 A. I think we are talking about that same person, the one from

13 Brodarica.

14 Q. Okay. Let's look at what he says. This is his statement to the

15 Gotovina Defence dated 8 May 2008.

16 Paragraph 2, Mr. Tudic, Covo, says: "During Operation Storm, I

17 was deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Battalion of the 113th Brigade."

18 If we go down to paragraph 7, towards the middle of the

19 paragraph: "I decided to halt further breaching. I deployed my men into

20 the ditch and hills from the village of Pavasovici to the village or

21 Gracac.

22 And then to paragraph 8, second sentence: "As a result, Boris

23 Filipovic was wounded. Some ten minutes after him being wounded, I

24 approached him. At that point, a group of soldiers were with me by the

25 names of Govic, Alen; Babic, Bozo; Tudic, Ivica. When I approached the

Page 3043

1 wounded soldier, I determined he had been wounded in the leg, and I then

2 organised his withdrawal on a tent canvass with the help of a group of

3 soldiers.

4 "I declare that Vladimir Gojanovic was not present during the

5 withdrawal of this wounded soldier. Gojanovic was known to me from

6 before, and I would have surely noticed him had he been there."

7 At paragraph 13: "Concerning I personally led all offensive

8 operations from Skradin to Drvar, I surely would have noticed the

9 soldier, Vladimir Gojanovic, had he been present in those areas."

10 Now, you, in your witness statement, describe the withdrawal of

11 the wounded soldier on a tent, and this morning you gave us the name --

12 nickname Covo, which you say now say at least likely to be Mr. Tudic.

13 Is it possible, sir, that, in fact, you were not a member of the

14 3rd Infantry Brigade?

15 A. I can tell you again, with full responsibility, that it is it not

16 possible that I was not a member of that battalion in that operation. I

17 say with full responsibility that I only noticed Covo after I crossed the

18 first minefield together with a group of ten volunteers. I crossed it on

19 top of a tank together with Sudac.

20 Then I saw him again in the follow-up action of mopping up the

21 terrain; whereas, you are talking about the previous day and the wounding

22 when I had not yet noticed Covo.

23 What I remember is that I first noticed him the next day, and

24 Covo did not join that group of ten volunteer. I saw him later in the

25 action of mopping up the terrain which involved a larger number of

Page 3044

1 troupes.

2 MR. MISETIC: I would ask that this be marked for identification.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Same procedure, Ms. Mahindaratne.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. No objection.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D199, marked

6 for identification.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Let me turn next to 1D22-0052.

11 Q. This is now a statement provided by the assistant commander of

12 the political activity department of the 2nd Battalion of the HV 113th

13 Brigade, which is what in your statements you say you were a part of.

14 His name is Josko Babacic, and this is a statement dated 8 May 2008.

15 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

16 Q. Paragraph 2: "I was assistant commander of the political

17 activity department of the 2nd Battalion of the HV 113th Brigade. The

18 2nd Infantry Battalion was comprised of conscripts."

19 Page 4 -- paragraph 4, I apologise: "From these positions, we

20 commenced the operation towards the villages of Cista Velika and

21 Cista Mala." Let me stop right there.

22 Do you recall, perhaps, being part of an operation towards

23 Cista Velika or Cista Mala, if you know where those places are?

24 A. No. I certainly did not participate in that.

25 Q. Paragraph 5: "During preparations for the operation, according

Page 3045

1 to a written order by the brigade commander, preparations were conducted

2 with all soldiers, officers, and non-commissioned officers, regarding

3 treatment of prisoners of war and wounded enemy soldiers and civilians,

4 which I conducted personally with the help of a psychologist in our

5 brigade, Marina Gulin, who can confirm this fact."

6 Paragraph 6: "During preparations, all soldiers received a

7 booklet on conduct in accordance with the Geneva Conventions."

8 Paragraph 9, now this is where Mr. Babacic is talking about

9 whether or not you were present with the 2nd Battalion. He says, towards

10 the bottom of paragraph 9: "Vladimir Gojanovic was not amongst the

11 soldiers we encountered, and I am sure that I would have recognised him

12 considering I know him personally. Gojanovic is extremely tall, and I

13 would have surely seen him had he been there. As I said, I know him

14 personally."

15 Paragraph 13: "As assistant commander of the political activity

16 department and as former commander of the recon company, and having

17 commanded units during the operation, I often communicated with other

18 commanders, lead takeovers of units and positions, and I can say with

19 certainty that I did not see Vladimir Gojanovic as a member of any unit."

20 Now, I want to discuss, because we discussed yesterday, your

21 information that may have been given to you prior to or in the course of

22 Operation Storm concerning proper treatment of civilians and prisoners of

23 war referenced in this statement.

24 MR. MISETIC: Before I do that, I'd like to show another

25 document, Your Honour.

Page 3046

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

3 This would be, Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 1532.

4 First, if I could ask that this be marked for identification,

5 this statement that is before us, Your Honours.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked for

9 identification as Exhibit D200.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


12 Q. Now, Mr. Gojanovic, what is on your screen now is a portion of

13 General Gotovina's attack order for Operation Storm from the 2nd of

14 August, 1995, and it's an order that goes to the political activities

15 department.

16 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

17 Back. There. Right there.

18 Q. At number 6, General Gotovina orders the political activities

19 department, and it says one of the tasks is familiarizing units with the

20 need --

21 Actually, let me start at number 5: Familiarising members with

22 conduct in occupied settlements and handling of war booty.

23 Number 6: Familiarising units with the need to eliminate all

24 negative occurrences that will surface in the course of combat operations

25 and with a focus on preventing, torching, and destruction of larger

Page 3047

1 populated areas and towns.

2 Number 8: Advising members of units on conduct with civilians

3 and POWs in according with the Geneva Convention.

4 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

5 If we can go to the next page, I'm sorry.

6 Q. Number 6 is organising carry of dead, wounded, and infirm.

7 Now, sir, that was the order of General Gotovina on the 2nd of

8 August to the political activity department. We've now seen a statement

9 from Mr. Babacic, assistant commander of the political activity

10 department of the 2nd Battalion of the HV 113th Brigade; and he says, as

11 part of the order he received through the chain of command, that, in

12 fact, preparations concerning the proper treatment of soldiers and

13 civilians was conducted and that all soldiers received a booklet on

14 conduct in accordance with the Geneva Convention?

15 Do you recall receiving such a booklet?

16 A. Tell me, please, are you talking about Mr. Babacic, who was the

17 commander of the 2nd Battalion? That's what you said, isn't it?

18 Q. I said the document, the statement says he was assistant

19 commander of the political activity department of the 2nd Battalion.

20 A. And we have established that, according to these participants, I

21 was in the 3rd Battalion on the Sonkovic-Gracac line. Now you are asking

22 me about the political activity service of the 2nd Battalion, and I was

23 not a member of that battalion, neither according to Mr. Babacic, nor in

24 accordance with my own recollection.

25 Q. Witness, Mr. Gojanovic, I'm asking you these questions because,

Page 3048

1 quite frankly, I'm not sure what we're established, and your statement

2 says you were in the 2nd Battalion.

3 So what I'd like to know, regardless of whether it was done by

4 Mr. Babacic -- and I will remind you of your testimony, yesterday, that

5 there was some discussion after Operation Storm started according to you,

6 and I can read it. Actually, this is the transcript, page 2873 -- I'm

7 sorry, page 2940, lines 6 through 11.

8 Judge Orie had asked you a question: "Were you under

9 instructions to deal with what you called civilians this way?"

10 Your answer: "We were issued brief instructions relating to the

11 civilian population, to the effect that their security should be ensured

12 and that casualties should be prevented in the course of the military

13 operation."

14 Now, the question is: Isn't it true that the political

15 activities branch of the 113th Guards Brigade, regardless of the

16 battalion, in fact passed down General Gotovina's order about proper

17 treatment of civilians and POWs?

18 A. As for my experience, I did not receive a booklet about

19 Geneva Conventions as you mentioned here. I stand by the statement I

20 gave and that you have just read.

21 Q. Let's put the booklet aside for a second. I'm asking about the

22 instructions. Isn't it true that the political activities branch of the

23 113th Brigade, regardless of which battalion, in fact passed down General

24 Gotovina's order about proper treatment of civilians and POWs? I base

25 this on your claim that you received instructions relating to the

Page 3049

1 civilian population.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I think that is an unfair

3 question. I don't know how this witness -- whether he received or not is

4 another question. But as to whether whatever he received passed down

5 from General Gotovina downwards at his level, he would not be aware of

6 it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

8 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, he has stated that he received the

9 instruction. We have a statement that the political activities branch,

10 in fact, at least in the 2nd Battalion, passed the instruction, and he

11 says he received instructions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do we know whether the witness has any

13 knowledge by which channels the instructions came to him? That appears

14 to be the issue.

15 MR. MISETIC: I will remove the part about that.

16 Q. Let me ask it this way: Isn't it true that it was the political

17 activities department, of whatever battalion you say you were in, that

18 issued these instructions that you referred to yesterday in your answer

19 to Judge Orie?

20 A. Can you please repeat the second part of the question?

21 Q. Let me repeat the whole question to you.

22 Isn't it true that it was the political activities department, of

23 whatever battalion you say you were in, that issued these instructions to

24 which you referred yesterday in your answer to Judge Orie's question?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, there is apparently some difficulties

Page 3050

1 in answering the question. I think, yesterday, the witness testified

2 about what they were supposed to do with civilians, which certainly not

3 did reflect clearly what is in the Geneva Conventions; that is, to get

4 them all together, et cetera.

5 So would be please be more specific and refer to specific

6 portions of his answer, and then try to relate that in more detail,

7 rather than to make it one, more or less, composite matter.

8 Mr. Misetic.

9 [Defence counsel confer]

10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm just going to use verbatim his

11 statement from yesterday.

12 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, the statement you made yesterday was: "We were

13 issued brief instructions relating to the civilian population, to the

14 effect that their security should be ensured and that casualties should

15 be prevented in the course of the military operation."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please put to the witness the totality of

17 what he said about what should happen to the civilian population.

18 MR. MISETIC: Well --

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think there was more. Let me just check. Could

20 you give me a reference of yesterday's transcript.

21 MR. MISETIC: Page 2940, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have to open it. One second.

23 Yes. I have only the now the final numbering which is a bit off.

24 MR. MISETIC: 2873.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It must be somewhere 2903 or 4, then.

Page 3051

1 If you would give me one or two words.

2 MR. MISETIC: "Instructions."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second, please.

4 MR. MISETIC: We pulled it up as page 2940, line 6.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the witness explained that they had to

7 transport the civilians as well. So that was a more -- there was more

8 than just taking care that nothing would happen to them. And if would

9 you please include that in your question, and say, "The instructions we

10 referred to yesterday including this and this and this was that ...",

11 then I think it could create less confusion.

12 MR. MISETIC: I think our position, Your Honour --

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- or to split it up, that 's fine as well; but

14 include that as well.

15 MR. MISETIC: Can I just ask him the first question that I had

16 asked, and then I will follow up with your question, Your Honour?

17 Q. The question -- my question was: You said you were issued brief

18 instructions relating to the civilian population, to the effect that

19 their security should be ensured. Who issued those instructions?

20 A. Those were verbal instructions given by the platoon commander at

21 Jadrija; plus, we didn't even know then that we were going into Operation

22 Storm. Most of these instructions had to do with the treatment of

23 civilians and transports, as we were moving, as we were already in the

24 action.

25 Q. Now, second, I believe what Judge Orie is referring to is this

Page 3052

1 which would be a --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, perhaps, to be more precise, you were

3 referring to instructions of a rather abstract nature. I was referring

4 to part of instructions which are more of a concrete nature. The first

5 is: Take care that nothing happens. The second is: Take them here or

6 take them there, or --

7 MR. MISETIC: What I'll getting to next, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- stand before the house and take care that no one

9 enters. That is concrete and abstract. That is what is it bothering me.

10 MR. MISETIC: That's what my next question was going to be.

11 Q. You said that: "The troops who were advancing on the

12 territory ..." -- sorry.

13 MR. MISETIC: This is page 2939, starting at line 24.

14 Q. "The troops who were advancing on the territory were secure so

15 that all civilians we encountered would be transported to these

16 collection centres."

17 Now, who issued the instructions to transport civilians to the

18 collection centres?

19 A. I heard of the these instructions from other soldiers, when the

20 one 113th Sibenik Brigade officially entered Djevrska at 7.15.

21 Q. So this was not part of the instructions that you received from

22 the platoon commander, which you just reference earlier, prior to

23 Operation Storm. Correct?

24 A. No. They were not the same.

25 MR. MISETIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?

Page 3053

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I think Mr. Misetic used a word

3 "prior to Operation Storm," but I cannot recall the witness ever saying

4 that he received any instructions prior to Operation Storm.

5 MR. MISETIC: He just said that it -- that at their gathering

6 place is when a platoon commander, and I can pull up and show it.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: He just refers to the place Jadrija.

9 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

10 Q. Let's clarify that. Mr. Gojanovic, when you gave the answer that

11 you received verbal instructions from a platoon commander at Jadrija.

12 Jadrija, was that the meeting point prior to going into Operation Storm?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this instruction that you refer to was given prior to

15 Operation Storm. Correct?

16 A. The instruction that I mentioned was issued in a very narrow

17 sense before the beginning of the operation, when we didn't even know

18 where we were headed or what we were supposed to do.

19 Q. Okay.

20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I could move on to the next

21 topic -- oh, sorry. I need to marked for identification the order of

22 General Gotovina, at least the portion of the order -- the attack order

23 of the 2nd of August, and ask that it be admitted into evidence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

Page 3054

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D201, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: D201 is admitted into evidence.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Paragraph 8 of your 2005 statement. On page 6 of the English

7 version, you talk about the following event: "Because the 113th had

8 moved slower than was necessary, after the success of taking Djevrska,

9 seven volunteers, including myself, spent one night in the town. The

10 volunteers also included three conscripts. During that night, we

11 searched the whole of the town."

12 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if you would be so kind as to pull

13 up 1D22-0060. This is the statement given to the Gotovina Defence by

14 Mr. Josip Elez, who was a company commander within the 1st Battalion of

15 the 113th Brigade, given 8 May 2008.

16 Q. Have you ever heard the name Josip Elez before?

17 A. No.

18 Q. The first paragraph, he says: "This is a voluntarily statement

19 concerning my participation in Operation Storm, during which time I was

20 company commander within the 1st Battalion of the 113th Guards Brigade."

21 And in the fourth paragraph, he says: "5 August 1995, we seized

22 Gracac and advanced via Pekovica, Kula, Zdrapanja, Vacana, to

23 Bribriska Glava, where the command of the 2nd Djevrska Brigade of the

24 so-called ARSK was located. In the evening, seven of us, the late

25 Zivko Baric, Ratko Despot..."

Page 3055

1 Despot, by the way, is the name you gave us this morning of the

2 individual. Correct?

3 A. Da [No interpretation]

4 Q. "... Miljenko Zivkovic, Tihomir Mis, two conscripts and myself."

5 Then: "When we entered the village of Djevrska at approximately

6 2100 hours, I am positive that Vladimir Gojanovic was not with us."

7 Now just to clarify, Ratko Despot is the HV soldier of Serbian

8 ethnicity to whom you referred to this morning. Is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And you referred to someone where you said his nickname was Mis,

11 or Mouse. Could it be that it was not his nickname but his surname?

12 A. That's correct. I won't know that. My conclusions was this was

13 his nickname because I had never heard of "Mis" as a surname before. It

14 was my impression that Ratko Despot and Mis were active soldiers of the

15 113th Sibenik Brigade.

16 Q. Is it possible, sir, that you were not one of the seven people

17 who entered Djevrska and spent the night there on the 5th of

18 August, 1995?

19 A. It is not possible.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would ask that this be marked for

22 identification.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Same procedure, Ms. Mahindaratne.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. No objection.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D202, marked for identification, Your

Page 3056

1 Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


4 Q. Just an a point of clarification, Mr. Gojanovic, in these

5 statements, you have seen references to the village of Gracac. In that

6 area of responsibility, is there a village called "Gracac" which is

7 different from the town of Gracac.

8 A. I suppose that there is a village called Gracac and that it is

9 very close to Sonkovici, which is at an elevated position above the main

10 road where the attack -- the way the attack, the axis of the attack

11 evolved on the first day.

12 Q. Same paragraph of your statement, paragraph 8, at the beginning

13 of the paragraph, you say: "After we captured the village of Sonkovici

14 and the rest of our battalion followed us, I climbed on top of a tank

15 with about six other soldiers."

16 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if you would please --first, let's

17 call up 1D22-0280.

18 Q. This morning, I asked you if you could identify any one of these

19 six by name. You gave me the last name of that Zafranovic. I'm going to

20 show you a statement to the General Gotovina Defence by an individual

21 whose last name is Zafranovic, first name of Davor. The statement is

22 given 12 May 2008.

23 MR. MISETIC: Page 2, Mr. Registrar.

24 Q. Paragraph 2: "I was mobilised on 4 August 1995 for the Operation

25 Storm. I was also a member of the 113th Brigade in 1993/1992. I served

Page 3057

1 as an infantry soldier in the infantry company."

2 Paragraph 5: "I was a member of the 113th Brigade, 3rd Infantry

3 Battalion, S Company. We all were reserve soldiers and were mobilised

4 for the purpose of Operation Storm. The commander of my company was

5 Darko Djaja. The deputy commander was Srecko Grubisic.

6 "When we arrived in our starting point, we were ten infantry

7 soldiers. We joined in the support of a tank. The commander of the tank

8 was Radoslav Juricev, Sudac. Out of the ten of us who had arrived, five

9 went with commander Juricev. The other five went on a tank to Gornje

10 Bicine. The tank that Sudac was driving set out at Janko's house."

11 I note in your statement, sir, you also make a reference to

12 Janko's House.

13 MR. MISETIC: I will move on, and one of my colleagues are find

14 the reference.

15 Q. Continuing on at paragraph 7: "After two kilometres, we took off

16 the tank because there were many mines that had to be cleared."

17 Paragraph 8: "I know the persons who joined the first and the

18 second tank. I knew them from earlier. Personally, I do not recall that

19 Vladimir Gojanovic was with us. I would have recognised him if he had

20 been with us."

21 Paragraph 11 : "I do not recall having met Vladimir Gojanovic

22 during Operation Storm. I am absolutely certain that he was not with me

23 on the tank. That was under the command of Sudac, and it set out for its

24 task at Janko's house."

25 Janko's house, it is paragraph 7, first sentence, in your

Page 3058

1 statement: "I was in a house called Janko`s house, Jankova Kuca, which

2 had been destroyed a long time before, as it was on the front line."

3 Sir, you gave us this name Zafranovic as someone with whom you

4 were on the tank. Is it possible, sir, that, in fact, you were not on a

5 tank that started out from Janko`s house?

6 A. It is not possible.

7 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'd ask that this statement be marked

8 for identification.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D203, marked for identification, Your

13 Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


16 Q. Now, Mr. Gojanovic, I want to turn to some different topics.

17 Talking about orders and whether there were any orders issued to

18 stop looting and whether were there orders issued by Mr. Kotlar, you were

19 asked a series of questions by the Prosecution on direct examination on

20 this point. I'd like to take you to --

21 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Mr. Registrar, if we

22 could call up 65 ter 2308.

23 Q. This is an order issued by General Gotovina on the 10th of

24 August, 1998 [sic]. I'm going to show you this document and the

25 subsequent document of Commander Kotlar.

Page 3059

1 It says: "Subject: Order on compliance with military

2 disciplinary measures. Based on the information from the areas liberated

3 by the HV, the analysis thereof, and in order to prevent theft of

4 property, undisciplined conduct, and to save human lives, I hereby order:

5 "1. I prohibit arbitrary movement of the HV members in the

6 liberated areas without the knowledge of their superior commanders.

7 Devote special measures and activities to the security of the units in

8 the deployment zones taking into account possible remaining terrorist

9 forces.

10 "2. Take all necessary measures ..." --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

12 MR. MISETIC: Oh, sorry.

13 Q. "2. Take all necessary measures and fully engage in the

14 implementation of the military disciplinary conduct and the maintenance

15 of order in the area of responsibility, and prevent arson and all other

16 illegal acts. Take resolute measures against anybody who conducts

17 himself in an undisciplined manner?"

18 MR. MISETIC: Now, if we could show page 2.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

20 MR. MISETIC: Oh, I'm sorry.

21 Q. Paragraph 4: "The order enters into force immediately, and I

22 designate the commanders of the directly subordinated units to be in

23 charge of its implementation."

24 And it has the seal of General Gotovina.

25 MR. MISETIC: I have a second order, Your Honour, related to this

Page 3060

1 one, so I would ask that this be marked for identification and I tender

2 it into evidence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D104.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. D204 is admitted into

8 evidence.

9 If it sometimes looks as if I'm distracted, it is because I'm

10 dealing at the same time with translation issues and all kind of other

11 matters. Then I sometimes take my time to re-read the last line of the

12 transcript.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Now, I'd like the

15 registrar to please call up 65 ter 4587.

16 Q. This is it a order from Commander Kotlar, dated 12 August 1995,

17 two days after the order of General Gotovina. The subject is the same:

18 "Order on carrying out military disciplinary measures."

19 "Pursuant to the order of the commander of the Split Military

20 District, dated 10 August 1995, information received from the areas

21 liberated by the HV and the analysis of the said, and in view of

22 protection of property, prevention of undisciplined behaviour, and

23 preservation of human lives, I hereby order:

24 "1. I forbid movement of members of the 113th Brigade HV

25 Infantry Battalion in the liberated areas without knowledge of the

Page 3061

1 superior commander.

2 "2. Take all necessary measures and participate very actively

3 in exhibiting military and disciplinary behaviour and maintaining order

4 in the zone of responsibility, preventing arson, looting of property, and

5 all other illegal acts. Take stringent disciplinary measures against

6 perpetrators of such acts."

7 MR. MISETIC: Next page, Mr. Registrar.

8 Q. Number 4: "This order comes into force immediately, and for its

9 execution are responsible commanders of the immediately subordinated

10 units."

11 Now, sir, you were asked questions this morning by the Prosecutor

12 about Mr. Kotlar's orders, and you said they were given orally.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You are aware, based on your witness statement --

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, that is not correct. The only

16 reference to any -- the witness's testimony was that there were no

17 orders, and that Commander Kotlar shouted out from his vehicle. There

18 was -- the witness never said that verbal orders were issued.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to make another semantic discussion, and

20 next time, Ms. Mahindaratne, I think it would be more appropriate to say

21 that you would insist on literally quoting the witness, rather than this

22 way of presenting his evidence.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I apologise, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.


Page 3062

1 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, your statements says, at paragraph 20: "Commander

2 Kotlar visited the area of Donji Srb on one occasion in his four-wheel

3 drive vehicle and shouted at the troops, telling them not to loot or

4 torch. Although, I'm not sure they took him seriously."

5 Now, in fact, Commander Kotlar was issuing orders for soldiers

6 not to loot or torch. Isn't that correct?

7 A. It is correct.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I'm looking at the clock.

10 One second, please.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, first, as a --

13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I apologise. The exhibit, is that

14 what you're referring to?

15 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm not referring to that, but I can image that

16 you consider this the proper order to deal with matters.

17 MR. MISETIC: I tender it and move that it be moved into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is the 12th of August?

20 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D205, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where the transcript reads the 3rd of August,

25 I think I said the 12th of August.

Page 3063

1 Yes. Now the transcript reads that Mr. Registrar has admitted

2 into evidence D205, which apparently is a mistake.

3 D205 is admitted into evidence.

4 Then, for the parties, there is one issue on which I invite the

5 parties to see whether they can find a solution; that is, about the

6 witness statements. If it would assist the parties, similar issues, I

7 remember, were dealt with in one of the previous cases I was sitting on,

8 and it is the Haradinaj case.

9 If you look at transcript pages 7357, 7358, you will find an oral

10 decision. The same issue was dealt with in the decision you'll find on

11 transcript pages 7446 up to 7448. I immediately add to that those were

12 decisions of the Haradinaj Chamber, which, of course, is certainly no

13 guarantee that this Chamber would decide in a similar way, but just

14 perhaps for your guidance if try to resolve the matter.

15 That's one.

16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you give us any impression on how much

18 time you'd still need.

19 MR. MISETIC: I think I would be done in 20 minutes to a half an

20 hour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we couldn't do it today, that is for sure,

22 because I take it, Ms. Mahindaratne, that you will need some time for

23 re-examination.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, but brief. It won't be

25 too long.

Page 3064


2 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, my original estimate still stands.


4 MS. HIGGINS: It was 20 to 30 minutes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was my assumption at that moment.

6 Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to add on it

8 that, perhaps, I will have ten minutes of examination.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It would take us altogether certainly well

10 over approximately one session.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just inquire with the parties.

14 Knowing that we need approximately one more session, of course,

15 the witness is in The Hague now. He would have to stay all over the

16 weekend, but the parties might not have -- it's Friday. I'm aware that

17 some persons make travel arrangements well in advance.

18 Is it of any use to further explore the possibility of having one

19 session, I would say up to one hour 45 minutes, this afternoon, or would

20 that meet major opposition by the parties?

21 I'm asking openly.

22 MR. KAY: Certainly, for our part, both counsel here have flights

23 booked backed to the UK for this evening. We would be leaving The Hague

24 at 4.00.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 4.00. Other parties, could I just see

Page 3065

1 whether --

2 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, it seems to me that it is also not

3 appropriate to have a meeting -- a proceedings this afternoon because we

4 have already booked some other arrangements.

5 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, the Chamber had quite a full

6 schedule this afternoon, as well. I was just trying to explore whether

7 there was any possibility to release the witness this afternoon; and,

8 apparently, it becomes too troublesome to further explore it. We would

9 have to compose a team of interpreters. We would have -- well,

10 everything should have been scheduled. We should have started that

11 earlier, if there would have been a reasonable perspective of success.

12 So, therefore, I think we should quit that.

13 Witness, this means that we would like to see you back on Monday,

14 that's the 19th of May, at 9.00 in the morning, and, unfortunately, still

15 scheduled in Courtroom II. We'll see whether there is any other solution

16 to that, but it might not be possible.

17 Witness, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak

18 with anyone about your testimony, whether the testimony you have already

19 given or the testimony still to be given. This is an instruction which

20 takes the form of a judicial order, and covers whatever conversations

21 with whomever you have, either people your association or others. So no

22 words whatsoever about your testimony, and a violation of a judicial

23 order may amount to contempt of court which is an offence which can be

24 punished maximum penalty seven years of imprisonment.

25 We stand adjourned until Monday morning, the 19th of May,

Page 3066

1 Courtroom II.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th of May, 2008,

4 at 9.00 a.m.