Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4294

 1                           Thursday, 5 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.

 6             Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Mr. Kay, are you ready to continue your cross-examination.

12             MR. KAY:  I am, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But I must first remind you, Mr. Forand, that you

14     are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning

15     of your testimony.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, please proceed.

18             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           WITNESS:  ALAIN ROBERT FORAND [Resumed]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay: [Continued]

21        Q.   General Forand, we're going to look at some documents now

22     concerning freedom of movement and how that progressed between you and

23     Mr. Cermak, as well as other factors that had a play in this matter.

24             The first document that I would like you to look at is P347.  And

25     the page that we need to turn to on this is, first of all, the first

Page 4295

 1     page, where you say in your sitrep that:  "The HV are restricting our

 2     movement."

 3             MR. KAY:  That's the wrong -- that's not the same document that I

 4     have for that.  My mistake.  Hang on.

 5             Second page.  It's the letter.  A bit of confusion because this

 6     is -- exists as a stand-alone document, as well as being part of a

 7     sitrep, so it's difficult to trace it.

 8        Q.   This is the letter that you wrote to General Gotovina which we

 9     looked at yesterday and the day before, concerning your request for a

10     meeting with the military governor; but then in paragraph 2:  "The

11     restriction on freedom of movement in Sector South must be lifted

12     immediately," which was something that you wanted so that you could get

13     out of your camp; isn't that right?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You refer in another document, 65 ter 1607, on the

16     5th of August, in paragraph 1, fourth line:  "The HV are restricting our

17     movement, although we have had authority from one set of Croatian army

18     liaison officers to proceed with patrolling and humanitarian assistance."

19     Then they got blocked having gone less than a kilometre.

20             First of all, can you recollect which Croatian army liaison

21     officers had given permission to proceed, where they were based or what

22     that refers to?

23        A.   No, sir, I don't remember.

24        Q.   And the blocking of the patrol, can you remember where that was?

25        A.   Well, from the content of that first paragraph, it must have been

Page 4296

 1     from my headquarters, sir.

 2        Q.   Right.  So that would have been out of the UNCRO compound in

 3     Knin?

 4        A.   Yeah, from my headquarters in Knin.

 5        Q.   Right.  So someone had let them through at the gate, but they

 6     hadn't got any further than a kilometre?

 7        A.   Well, I suppose there must have been discussion with that CALO,

 8     whoever he may have been, either on the phone or verbally, that we were,

 9     according to him, from what I'm reading, given the permission to get out

10     of the camp.

11        Q.   Right.  Can we look at page 2 of this document, paragraph B:

12     "I'm pressing wherever I can for freedom of movement, for humanitarian

13     relief, monitoring military activity.  I understand that a Croatian army

14     liaison office team is being dispatched here from Zadar, and I've offered

15     that space in my HQ to facilitate."

16             Is that the reference there that you are referring to offering a

17     space to Marine Lukovic, Captain Lukovic, in your headquarters?

18        A.   Yes, sir.  I don't know if it was specifically for Captain

19     Lukovic, but I know that we had offered a space within my headquarters

20     for a liaison officer.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, can this be made an exhibit, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 4297

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D317, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D317 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. KAY:  I have a 65 ter number 1654, 1654, for the next

 4     document.  That's 347, Prosecution Exhibit 347.

 5        Q.   Still taking up the account on this, on the 5th of August, and

 6     you were calling for intervention of senior officials at every level to

 7     try and reestablish your freedom of movement which was fundamentally

 8     important to you.  That's right, isn't it?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.

10        Q.   And I've just put this in.  We've looked at it before just so

11     that the whole chain of it is able to be seen.

12             MR. KAY:  Next document I'd like to turn to is 65 ter 1625.

13        Q.   This is another sitrep for the 6th of August, 1995.  It may have

14     been a Prosecution exhibit.  I've just flag that up.

15             Here, you can see in paragraph 1:  "Immediate concerns with

16     respect to the current situation in Knin and Sector South.  I will be

17     discussing those points at my level with the Croatian liaison office in

18     Knin; however, I would appreciate if those points were discussed with

19     Croat authorities in Zagreb."

20             At your level with the --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

22             MR. KAY:  Sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You are reading from an English text, and we have at

24     this moment on our screen a B/C/S text and not a corresponding page for

25     the English text.  And what we just saw apparently as the second page

Page 4298

 1     seems not to correspond --

 2             MR. KAY:  I apologise.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with what you're reading, because I saw a very

 4     short, and I see it now again.  I see a paragraph 2 and a paragraph 3,

 5     where in the original we have a short paragraph 1 and then a longer

 6     paragraph 2.  So these are not corresponding documents.

 7             MR. KAY:  My apologies for that.  That is my responsibility.  The

 8     ERN number that I'm looking at is 0052-7776, if that may help the

 9     situation.  I've read it out to you accurately, you can take that from

10     me.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take that from you; but at the same time, the

12     Chamber would like to know what document we are dealing with.

13             It seems that, Mr. Registrar ...

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             MR. KAY:  I can describe it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, at the inconsistency, or at least the

17     discrepancy, between original and translation is apparently caused by the

18     way in which you have uploaded these documents, because I do understand

19     that these documents are uploaded by the OTP.  So if you would please

20     have a look at that.

21             Meanwhile, Mr. Kay, if you would be very precise in describing

22     what the document exactly is; and if you would have a hard copy, that

23     might assist the witness because --

24             MR. KAY:  I'll give the witness my copy, as I can deal with the

25     matter.

Page 4299

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it be put on the ELMO.

 2             MR. KAY:  I apologise for the markings in advance.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that the --

 4             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... You can see where we've got

 5     our information from.

 6             Thank you, Mr. Usher, that's the spot on point.

 7        Q.   I was going to ask you, having read it out, that your level with

 8     the Croat liaison office in Knin, what you meant by that?  What was your

 9     level with the Croat liaison office in Knin?

10        A.   It must be a reference to the other sitrep, where I was saying

11     that the Croat liaison was coming from Zadar.

12        Q.   Right.  And the passage below, "HV soldiers are claiming that

13     this imposed restriction of movement is for our own security," where did

14     that information come from?

15        A.   Well, that must have been with discussion, you know, with

16     soldiers that were at the gate of my headquarters.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KAY:  If we could just turn to page 2.

19        Q.   If you go to the pink passage which has helpfully been marked in

20     advance, paragraph 7.  "I am seeking your support to resolve the

21     foregoing points with the Croatian authorities as a matter of priority,"

22     indicating, would you agree, that you wanted RHQ in Zagreb to assist you

23     in resolving these issues?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 4300

 1             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, if that document, subject to it being

 2     correctly identified as to what it is, could be exhibited.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although, I have seen this document before; I

 4     know that for sure.

 5             So, therefore, Mr. Registrar, if you would please make a note

 6     that it may be that this document needs a number; and that, meanwhile,

 7     everyone is invited to find it on the already existing lists or one of

 8     the exhibits.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11        Q.   We're now going to look at a document, 2D03-0123.  This is a

12     document which is quite long in text, but the relevant part has been

13     translated.

14             MR. KAY:  Page 2 after you have shown the first page,

15     Mr. Monkhouse.

16        Q.   This is a document coming from Brigadier Plestina whom you met, I

17     understand; is that right?

18        A.   I met him once.  He came to my camp sometime in August.

19        Q.   Yes.  We will get there soon on this.  This is from him on the

20     6th of August.  And as page 2 shows us, it's minutes of a meeting between

21     chief of the UNCRO staff, Colonel Pettis.  Did you know him?

22        A.   Yes, sir, I did.  He was the Chief of Staff of my UNCRO

23     headquarters; not my, but my superior UNCRO headquarters.

24        Q.   Yes.  And he had a meeting with Brigadier Plestina.  We can see

25     what the document is about.  The second paragraph, last sentence refers

Page 4301

 1     to the:  "The main problem is total prohibition leaving the facility,"

 2     meaning your UN compound, so that you can go to the UN warehouse in Knin,

 3     "needing supplies."

 4             Paragraph 3 refers to a requirement of opening roads to enable

 5     communication between UNCRO sector commands and subordinate units on the

 6     field; is that right?  You needed roads opened so that you could go to

 7     your subordinate units elsewhere in Sector South?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   They also require freedom of movement in the area next to those

10     where battles take place in order to report on human rights and similar.

11     Colonel Pettis said that would be useful for Croatia as well.  And we

12     note here that request was refused by Brigadier Plestina, saying:  "We

13     have been in Knin just one day and the battle has still been carrying on.

14     We expect component UN agencies and not UNCRO military units will report

15     on human rights."

16             Just looking at that passage there, we note Brigadier Plestina

17     refused a request from what would be your headquarters in Zagreb; isn't

18     that right?

19        A.   That seems to be the case because I never saw that -- those

20     minutes by myself.

21        Q.   Yes.  Were they keeping you informed at HQ Zagreb of refusals

22     that were happening higher up the chain of command?

23        A.   What I remember is that we -- the communication were not very

24     good in the sense, no.  I think we were not kept aware of all the

25     discussion that was taking place.

Page 4302

 1        Q.   Was that something that was a handicap to you?

 2        A.   Well, let's say that was not what I was expecting to see as far

 3     as information were ongoing.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Was there an issue about UNCRO, which was the peace

 5     force, having a role in monitoring the human rights issues that were of

 6     concern to the UN at this time?

 7        A.   I don't know if it was an issue, but as far as humanitarian

 8     right, if we see something a soldier that is ongoing that is against

 9     humanitarian rights, I think it's our duty to report it.  But I think you

10     will see that in one of the sitrep, that I explained very clearly to my

11     battalion commanders that our first priority was the dismantling.

12             I think it's somewhere around the 10th or 11th of August,

13     somewhere around there, where it's clearly stated in the sitrep.  And

14     when I had my battalion commander, I think it was on the 10th of August

15     at my headquarters, I reiterate that; but I also mentioned that anything

16     that they saw which was against humanitarian rights, I expect that they

17     would document it and report it to me.

18        Q.   Were you aware of the position of the Croatian government that

19     that was not why foreign troops in the form of UNCRO were on their

20     territorial area, that that was not your mandate?

21        A.   I don't remember that, sir.

22        Q.   Just moving on further in that paragraph, it seems that --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, meanwhile, I can inform you that the

24     document you just had on the screen is P348, 65 ter 1994.  So there must

25     be a double with 1625.

Page 4303

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. KAY:  My apologies, Your Honour, and thank you to the Court.

 3        Q.   And we can see further in that paragraph the issue of

 4     communication problems.  That's all I need refer you to there.

 5             MR. KAY:  Can that document be made an exhibit, please, Your

 6     Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D318, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D318 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KAY:  The next document that we are going to look at is

14     2D03-0169.  I believe it hasn't been uploaded yet into the system, Your

15     Honour, so we have copies here for --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher.

17             MR. KAY:  -- the ELMO.  It's been put for uploading but it hasn't

18     realised yet.  Thank you.  This is a partial translation.

19             And if page 4 of the Croatian document can be put on to the --

20     actually, page 1 first, just so that people can see it.  It's a document,

21     again, from Brigadier Plestina, dated the 7th of August, 1995.

22        Q.   You can see the date period that it refers to, events between the

23     6th of August, 7th of August, and it's a report.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, we now have the original in front of us,

25     and you explain to us without us being able to follow what it is.

Page 4304

 1             Do we have copies?  Do we have copies of it because you are

 2     talking about a partial translation?

 3             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber would like to have whatever copies

 5     there are, or to see it on the screen, so that we can follow you.

 6             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, perhaps just --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  There we are.

 8             MR. KAY:  -- because I know that we can only put the English on

 9     at this stage, so that other parties could see it.  If we put on the

10     English translation now which is on the screen.  From this report, we've

11     just translated the Sector South part.

12        Q.   You can see the document as described by me which is the extract

13     from page 3 of the Croatian document.  It refers there to:  "The office

14     of our UNCRO liaison officer has been established ..."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you give to Mr. Usher more copies than one?

16     Then perhaps Mr. Usher could provide us with a hard copy as well.  As

17     soon as I can't manipulate my own material anymore, I get a bit nervous.

18             MR. KAY:  Yes.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  Is there one available for

20     the Prosecution as well?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I see that I only received the

22     translation.  And if for whatever reason there is not yet a copy

23     uploaded, then at least we should have four copies:  One copy for the

24     party dealing with the matter, of course, preferably also for other

25     Defence counsel; one for the ELMO; one for the Bench; and one for the

Page 4305

 1     other party.

 2             If there is an original, I would like to see it; if not, then I

 3     would get it after it has been on the ELMO.

 4             MR. KAY:  It has been sent in electronic form to the Prosecution,

 5     I'm afraid under a different number, because this is the number for the

 6     e-court.

 7             Your Honour, is it all right for me to proceed?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

10        Q.   This, again, is just taking the story further on, and for

11     reference purposes, General Forand:  "The office of our UNCRO liaison

12     officer has been established.  Three officers from Zadar in the office

13     established liaison with UNCRO command."

14             Is that right that the three officers had established liaison

15     with you by the 7th of August?

16        A.   I don't remember, sir.

17        Q.   Thank you.  "In the first meeting, General Forand -- with General

18     Forand, they mainly talked about unfounded complaints that UNCRO filed

19     regarding the restriction of movement.  Our liaison officer explained to

20     General Forand that UNCRO has complete freedom of movement regarding the

21     supply of units on the field, that there is no need for their patrols,

22     observations from the points, and reports on breaching Zagreb agreement."

23             Is that right that the liaison officers of the Croatian army

24     expressed those matters to you in that way as reported in this document?

25        A.   Well, like I said before, sir, I don't remember, you know, that

Page 4306

 1     particular discussion, and I don't remember ever seeing it in one of our

 2     situation report where we explained that they had been at that particular

 3     meeting.  It could have been, but I don't remember.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit?  And

 6     my apologies to the Court for not having copies.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I just -- I'm reasonably confident I

 9     will not have an objection, but just out of some procedural matter -- in

10     fact, we did not receive this document.  I needed to clarify the record

11     on that.  We received an e-mail notification this morning that the

12     Defence might be using a document under that particular number, but not

13     the document itself.  So I simply want to look it over, and I have not

14     yet had the chance to do so.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we already assign it a number to it.  Would it

16     be agreeable, because otherwise we get a long MFI list, that the document

17     will be admitted into evidence but that you have an opportunity to

18     revisit the matter within today or tomorrow?

19             MR. TIEGER:  That's absolutely fine, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D319.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D319 is admitted into evidence under the proviso

23     that, first of all, that it will be uploaded into e-court, and we are

24     talking about a daily report of the 6th of August, 1995 to the 7th of

25     August, 1995.  And the second proviso is that the Prosecution has an

Page 4307

 1     opportunity to restate its position until Friday.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Next in the chain, but we're

 4     not going to pull up the exhibit, but it's Exhibit 359.

 5        Q.   You recollect you had a meeting with General Gotovina at the Knin

 6     Castle where you recorded that he talked to you about freedom of

 7     movement.

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   And he didn't ask you for your opinion on the matter, but told

10     you what the situation was going to be from his position; is that right?

11        A.   That is what was reflected in the situation report, yes, sir.

12        Q.   And Exhibit 359 also records that maps were going to be provided

13     to you showing the areas that were safe to travel.  That's what he said

14     to you.

15        A.   I don't remember that part, no, sir.

16             MR. KAY:  Let's look at Exhibit P359, and if we could go to

17     page 3 of that document.

18        Q.   This is the situation report produced through you by the

19     Prosecution of the 8th of August, 2030 hours.

20             MR. KAY:  Paragraph 2 of paragraph 3, if that can be produced.

21        Q.   Can you see there the text?

22        A.   Yes, sir.

23        Q.   You weren't asked for your opinion, you were told that it was

24     concern for your safety, and that maps would be provided showing the

25     areas that were safe to travel.

Page 4308

 1        A.   Yeah, I see that.

 2        Q.   And that the travel should be confined to main public roads due

 3     to mine hazard.  And you asked permission to bring your COs to Knin, and

 4     you were told to use the coastal highway.  And later on that day, you

 5     had, at 1.00, a meeting with General Cermak, and also the freedom of

 6     movement was again discussed by you in detail.

 7             And you were told by him, paragraph 3(1), it's recorded he would

 8     give orders that you would be allowed to travel freely within Knin and

 9     Drnis.  That's how it was expressed to you, wasn't it?

10        A.   Yes, sir.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KAY:  We can move now from that exhibit, and go to the next

13     document which is -- I have as Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2735.  I know

14     it's been an exhibit, but again it's the form.  Which document it has is

15     difficult to trace.

16             We're looking at now the letter that you received later that day

17     as Mr. Cermak mentioned.  And that letter had, as an attachment, a map;

18     is that right?

19        A.   It must have been there.  I don't remember.  But it's listed that

20     it was there, so it must have been there.

21        Q.   And General Gotovina had said you were going to receive a map,

22     hadn't he?

23        A.   Yes, sir.

24        Q.   Yes.

25             MR. KAY:  I'm just checking that this has been exhibited before.

Page 4309

 1             MR. TIEGER:  It has.  It's part of the -- it was used during the

 2     examination in chief, and we're just running the number now to identify

 3     the P number.

 4             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  P405, Your Honour.

 6             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tieger.

 7             The next document I want to look at on this matter is 2D03-0177.

 8             Your Honour, again, this is on the ELMO.  I believe it's being

 9     put into e-court but has yet to be uploaded into the system.  It's

10     another document from Brigadier Plestina, dated the 8th of August, 1995

11     referring to the 7th of August to 8th of August, 1995.  That's the front

12     page.

13             Again, the relevant extract has been translated relating to

14     Sector South.  If that could be put on the ELMO which is page -- that's

15     Sector North.  Next page.  That's Sector South.  If the English

16     translation could be put on the ELMO now.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, before you continue, I see these daily

18     reports.  I do not see an addressee of that, to whom.  I mean, it's clear

19     that the previous one might be the same for this one.  It was signed by

20     Brigadier Budimir Plestina, but to whom it is addressed remains rather

21     unclear.

22             MR. KAY:  I can see "military secret" on it.  It's now released

23     on the e-court system, Your Honour.  Would you Your Honour like to

24     proceed to get it off that rather than using the ELMO.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  My real problem was --

Page 4310

 1             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to whom these reports are addressed.

 3             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's fine to have them on my screen but that was my

 5     question.

 6             MR. KAY:  Yes.  And I'm only as good as my document, I'm afraid,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's a report for whomever.  It doesn't say

 9     anything.

10             MR. KAY:  It's the Ministry of Defence will be where it's going

11     to.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Where can we see that from the report?  You could

13     also say that it's coming from the Ministry Of the Defence.  It could be

14     sent to the government, to the President, to the local commanders,

15     to whatever.  I don't say any clue as to whom this is addressed.

16             MR. KAY:  I can't help you, Your Honour.  It's a document that

17     comes into my hands.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you're using it as having some relevance; and,

19     of course, it's always good to know not only who drafted it but also

20     where it was sent to.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. KAY:  Yes.  These have been very recently received by me, and

23     I've looked at in the last days.

24        Q.   This report from Brigadier Plestina, in the second paragraph:

25     "The cooperation of our liaison officers with the UNCRO units on the

Page 4311

 1     field has continued."  Is that right, was the UNCRO sector cooperation

 2     taking place with the Croatian army liaison officers?

 3        A.   Well, I don't remember with the unit at my headquarters.

 4     Obviously, we had established liaison with General Cermak and his people;

 5     but I cannot confirm, from the unit point of view, if that was the case.

 6        Q.   Right.  It refers here, though, to liaison officers rather than

 7     General Cermak.  All these documents, General Forand, in fact, exclude

 8     General Cermak.

 9        A.   Well, once General Cermak was in a position, that's with whom we

10     were dealing in my headquarters in Knin.

11        Q.   We'll go further into this document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try now to understand, Mr. Kay, what all these

13     documents are about.  In the previous one that was provisionally admitted

14     into evidence, the activities of liaison officers are described in the

15     following way.  It says:  "In the Zadar area, the majority of the

16     activities of our liaison officers is oriented on agreeing with CanBat

17     withdrawal of the CanBat soldiers from the numerous observation points

18     and the security of unobstructed water, toiletries, and foot supply in

19     their foot command in Rastevic."

20             So that part of the description of the liaison officers that is

21     oriented on agreeing with CanBat withdrawal of CanBat soldiers from the

22     numerous observation points, is that what you recognise as far as what

23     happened as far as the units is concerned and as far as the Croatian

24     liaison officers is concerned?  Do you agree on that role from

25     observation posts?

Page 4312

 1             THE WITNESS:  I don't remember that particular position, sir.  I

 2     know that just prior to the 4th of August, the Canadians had sent a

 3     liaison officer to Zadar, and that the liaison officer was negotiating

 4     with the Croats because some equipment, you know, had been taken from

 5     them from certain observation posts.  And they were negotiating also the

 6     return of certain Canadians that had been taken to Zadar.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Who had been taken or who had withdrawn?  I mean,

 8     what was the situation?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Well, taken to Zadar.  They were removed from their

10     observation post.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             THE WITNESS:  And they were escorted back to Zadar.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So, if you say -- if the language of the liaison

14     officers here used is to agree with CanBat withdrawal of the CanBat

15     soldiers from the numerous observation posts, you say, as far as you were

16     aware, that they were taken from the observation posts to Zadar?

17             THE WITNESS:  That was during the 4th, Your Honour?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm here talking about the -- this report is

19     about the 6th and the 7th of August.

20             THE WITNESS:  No.  I don't remember that because I don't ever

21     remember the Canadian Battalion reporting to me, you know, that this was

22     taking place.  The only time it took place was on the 4th, you know.  As

23     the Croat army was advancing, certain of the observation posts that the

24     Canadian had, the same thing for the Kenyans, that they were told, you

25     know, to remove themselves from the observation post.  Some of them went

Page 4313

 1     back to their unit area; others were brought to Zadar.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

 4             MR. KAY:

 5        Q.   If we look at the middle of that sect paragraph, the issue of

 6     CanBat refusing radio silence, that was a matter that occurred on the

 7     4th of August; isn't it?

 8        A.   It was not only the Canadian Battalion, it was all the units that

 9     were reporting; and that memo that we received from Captain Lukovic was

10     addressed to all of my units within Sector South.

11        Q.   But could you just answer the question:  Was it the 4th of

12     August?

13        A.   Yes, sir, it was the 4th of August.

14        Q.   That was the question.  I'd like to now turn to another similar

15     document to this.

16             MR. KAY:  Can that document be made an exhibit.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  The same situation as the previous document, Your

19     Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means this one is now uploaded.  So,

21     therefore, I'll immediately check whether we have a translation uploaded

22     as well.

23             Yes.  We have the --

24             MR. KAY:  All documents have been uploaded, I am informed now,

25     Your Honour.

Page 4314

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have the original five-page document in

 2     full and a translation on Sector South.

 3             Mr. Tieger, the same would then apply that you will have an

 4     opportunity until tomorrow, end of the session, to revisit your position

 5     as far as admission is concerned.

 6             Mr. Registrar, this would be number?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D320, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D320 is admitted with the proviso I've just

 9     expressed.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. KAY:  2D03-0184.

12        Q.   This is a document, General Forand, again from Brigadier

13     Plestina, dated the 10th of August, 1995.

14             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, we'll endeavour to answer Your Honour's

15     question on the direction of these documents during the course of the

16     day, if we can.

17        Q.   As we can see in this passage on Sector South, reference in the

18     third paragraph to:  "UNCRO trying is continue the activities it did till

19     the storm operation started and requires freedom of movement in the whole

20     liberated area.  When asked by our liaison officers what the purpose and

21     objective of these patrols is, they answered that they are just soldiers

22     and are still ordered to control the liberated territory."

23             Would you accept that there was a tension between UNCRO and the

24     government of Croatia as to your role now on what was part of the

25     sovereign territory of that state, Croatia?

Page 4315

 1        A.   I don't remember if there was tension because what is highlighted

 2     here goes contrary to what I had put on the sitrep and what I had said to

 3     my battalion commanders, that our first responsibility was the

 4     dismantling of the observation posts which required us to go throughout

 5     the sector, because also I wanted to recuperate some of the equipment,

 6     you know, that the UN had lost or was not sure where it was.  So I had to

 7     go through all the sector.

 8             In addition to that, what I was telling them is that:  If you see

 9     any infringement to human rights, it's our duty to report it.

10        Q.   The paragraph below the one we've just referred to:  "Our liaison

11     officers explained ..."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, this document apparently speaks about "our

13     liaison officers" frequently.  I would be very much interested to know

14     what exactly is meant by that.  I don't know whether this witness can

15     help us out who the liaison officers, I take it Croatian liaison

16     officers.  But whether these were the liaison officers we know about

17     already or whether there were any other liaison officers is something I'd

18     very much like to know.

19             MR. KAY:  The last document in this sequence, I think, will help,

20     Your Honour, in relation to that, and I do have that in mind.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's proceed.

22             MR. KAY:

23        Q.   At the next paragraph:  "Our liaison officers explained them that

24     UNCRO has full freedom of movement for supplying camps ... and no reason

25     to patrol."

Page 4316

 1             Again, there's a reference to the liaison officers discussing

 2     freedom of movement with you.  Who would that have been?

 3        A.   Like I said before, the only -- after the 7th, the only

 4     discussion I had at my level and the officer from my headquarters were

 5     with General Cermak or General Cermak's staff.  Now, if the units had

 6     some discussion with the liaison officer, I don't remember.

 7        Q.   Should we just go to the next page of the document and look

 8     carefully at where Brigadier Plestina is from, in terms of his position.

 9     The letter is from the Ministry of Defence, Republic of Croatia UN and EU

10     office, and he was the chief of the office.

11             The liaison office was part of -- the Croatian army liaison

12     office was part of the UN and EU office within their military structure;

13     is that right?

14        A.   If you say so.  I mean, like I said, I met General Plestina once.

15     I don't even remember what he looked like, but I saw a sitrep that says

16     that I met him at my Sector Headquarters South.  That's all I can say.

17        Q.   So you didn't know that -- where he was within the Croatian army

18     command structure?

19        A.   No, sir.

20             MR. KAY:  May that document be made an exhibit, please, Your

21     Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, same proviso?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Same situation, Your Honour.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then same decision as well, but, of course,

25     Mr. Registrar, first a number, please.

Page 4317

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D321, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D321 is admitted into evidence with the proviso that

 3     the Prosecution can revisit its position until Friday, end of the

 4     session.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. KAY:

 7        Q.   Next document is Exhibit P390 which is the letter to you, General

 8     Forand, from General Cermak, concerning your letter of the 10th of

 9     August.  We know the terms of this letter, although it always bears

10     looking at again as new issues are looked at.

11             We can see in paragraph 3:  UNCRO units being allowed full

12     freedom of movement for the purpose of providing food, drink, and fuel to

13     their bases."  And that was the issue concerning what you were able to do

14     within the state of Croatia, wasn't it?

15        A.   Well, I think it was more than that, if you go back to the deal

16     that was signed between Mr. Akashi and the Croatian government.  I think

17     we were allowed a little bit more latitude than that.

18        Q.   Just looking at this document and pulling up from the last

19     question I asked you about the last exhibit, you can see units in area of

20     responsibility, Ministry of Defence, and the office for UN and EU.

21             You still experienced problems with freedom of movement despite

22     that letter as we have seen in the situation reports; is that right?

23        A.   Yes, sir.

24        Q.   And that order of General Cermak, as signed by him, was the

25     document that was issued; is that right?

Page 4318

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  If we go now to P364.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to understand all the questions.  I see

 4     that there was a problem where there was a claim for full freedom of

 5     movement without restrictions, as far as the purpose is concerned, where

 6     only limited freedom of movement was granted; that is, to resupply or to

 7     supply good, drinks, fuel.

 8             Now, I'm trying to understand your last question:  "And that

 9     order of General Cermak, as signed by him, was the document that was

10     issued?"

11             MR. KAY:

12        Q.   Issued as a pass, General Forand, if that clarifies the matter.

13     I believe you said it in evidence in chief.

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15             MR. KAY:  Does that help?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm just trying to see.  "Issued," you mean

17     this letter was issued as a pass for freedom of movement?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  That's what we took it for, and I issued

19     it to all my units.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And the pass was for very limited purposes, isn't

21     it, only if someone was on the way with food, drinks, or fuel.  This

22     would help or --

23             THE WITNESS:  But there was also a reference, sir, to Article 4

24     and 5 of the --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  So this document as a pass under

Page 4319

 1     paragraph 1, we see that it's written that:  "Full freedom of movement

 2     for UN members mentioned in the agreement."  This is a reference to the

 3     Akashi agreement.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And then:  "Full freedom of movement is allowed to

 6     UNCRO troops in order to supply themselves with food, drinks, and fuel."

 7     Were UNCRO troops not included in the agreement?

 8             THE WITNESS:  It was, sir.  But I think if you read the

 9     agreement, it makes a difference between the United Nations humanitarian

10     rights and the UNCRO people.  But there's also under paragraph 5, I

11     remember well, that where we wanted to go was to be in consultation with

12     the HV troops.  But my interpretation is that that consultation is not a

13     binding agreement, and that we were still allowed to go wherever we want.

14     But my order to my troops was to dismantle the observation post and to

15     recuperate the equipment that was to the UN in order to concentrate it

16     into area.

17             But at the same time, while they were moving from point A to

18     point B to do that particular function, they were asked to report if they

19     saw anything that went against humanitarian rights.  In my --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, sir.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So you considered the freedom of movement to UNCRO

23     troops to be broader under the agreement as written down in this letter;

24     is that it?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

Page 4320

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I now better understand what the letter says

 2     and what the testimony of the witness is.

 3             MR. KAY:  Exhibit D28 is the agreement.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have it.

 5             MR. KAY:  I apologise, Your Honour.  We're under pressure of

 6     time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I know that.

 8             MR. KAY:  I can't go through in a way I would like to with this

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  And most of the times, I think the Chamber

11     understands --

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- even in shortened form what the evidence is.

14     And, now and again, it happens that we need to go a bit further.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KAY:  If we can go to Exhibit P364 which is the last

17     document.

18        Q.   And if you turn to page 2 of P364 which is your sitrep of the

19     12th of August, 1995.  If we look at the foot of the page in paragraph 3,

20     we see the report of the meeting with Brigadier Plestina.

21             General, we've looked at the series of documents from Brigadier

22     Plestina how they mesh into this issue of freedom of movement.  And you

23     had a meeting with him on the 12th of August, and he was described by you

24     as the head of the office of the UN and ECMM Croatian army; is that

25     right?

Page 4321

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   And when he came to see you, did you appreciate that he was the

 3     head of the Croatian army liaison officers?

 4        A.   I don't remember, but I must have been told at which function he

 5     occupied, yes, sir.

 6        Q.   Yes.  And he was visiting Knin from Zagreb.  He was with Captain

 7     Naval Lukovic, who we've referred to, who was a Croatian army liaison

 8     officer.  That's right, isn't it?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.

10        Q.   CALO, Operation Group South.  So he was the Croatian army liaison

11     officer of Operation Group South; Jeffrey Beaumont from headquarters

12     UNCRO, and the Croatian army CSS.

13        A.   That is the civilian affairs coordinator.  That was Mr. Al-Alfi.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I had not seen it written that way before.

15             The tone of the meeting was cordial.  You outlined planning for

16     redeployment.

17             MR. KAY:  Can we go to the next page.

18        Q.   And expressed concern for looting and theft of equipment which

19     had taken place.  Mr. Al-Alfi expressed the need for complete freedom of

20     movement of human rights teams; also requested lists of Serbs killed and

21     wounded to be provided; other issues.

22             And then the last sentence:  "Brigadier Plestina pledged full

23     freedom of movement but indicated the other issues were outside his

24     competence."

25             Is it correct that your meeting with Brigadier Plestina, who had

Page 4322

 1     come from Zagreb, was on the issue of freedom of movement?

 2        A.   Yes, sir, according to that sitrep, yes.

 3        Q.   And his purpose for being there was because he was controlling

 4     the issue of freedom of movement between the UNCRO, UN, and the Croatian

 5     army.

 6        A.   I don't know, sir.

 7        Q.   Well, isn't that why he was there with Mr. Beaumont from the

 8     headquarters of UNCRO?

 9        A.   I don't remember if he was in charge of controlling the issue,

10     except that we brought it up to him.  That's all I can say based on that

11     sitrep because I don't remember that individual.

12        Q.   And as we've seen from the reports by Brigadier Plestina, he was

13     reporting on how the issue of freedom of movement was being reported by

14     his liaison officers to UNCRO in Sector South?

15        A.   Yes, sir, based on what you've shown me, because I have never

16     seen those reports before.

17        Q.   And General Cermak, in fact, like you, was a conduit in this

18     matter.

19        A.   That seems to be the case, yes, sir.

20        Q.   Thank you.  That deals with that matter.

21             In your statements, you referred to nothing ever being done about

22     stopping crimes.  Were you aware of a number of orders issued by the

23     Ministry of the Interior of the Croatian government to the police

24     officers under their command to stop looting, burning, killing,

25     committing crimes?

Page 4323

 1             Were you aware that, during August, orders were issued by the

 2     Croatian Ministry of Interior that controlled the police, to police

 3     officers, that those crimes you were complaining about should not be

 4     happening?

 5        A.   As far as I remember, sir, no, I don't --

 6        Q.   Should we look at --

 7        A.   -- I'm not aware.

 8        Q.   -- an exhibit, D46, dated the 10th of August.  This is a report

 9     from the Assistant Minister of Interior, which controls the police under

10     the Croatian administration, to the head of the military police

11     administration, referring to reports from the field, noting individual

12     Croatian army members on liberated territory stealing, burning houses,

13     killing cattle; and complaining about the lack of cooperation at

14     checkpoints and roadblocks between the police and the military police,

15     and asking for measures to be taken.

16             Were you aware of such matters happening within the Croatian

17     administration of government?

18        A.   You mean that particular --

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   No, sir.

21        Q.   Were you aware at all of the concern from the Ministry of

22     Interior about the crimes that were happening as complained of by you?

23        A.   No, sir.

24             MR. KAY:  If we can just look at D48, Exhibit D48.

25        Q.   Again, it's a report from the MUP to the chief of military

Page 4324

 1     police, regarding crimes being committed on the 17th of August, and

 2     saying that the perpetrators wearing Croatian army uniforms.  That is

 3     another example of such an order.

 4             Were you being briefed in any way that these steps were being

 5     taken within the Croatian government that orders were being issued?

 6        A.   I don't remember, sir.

 7        Q.   Right.

 8             MR. KAY:  Just look at one more document on this matter as an

 9     example, 18th of August, Exhibit D49.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, also for me to understand this letter,

11     addressed to Mr. Laussic, I see that it's admitted into evidence.  Now,

12     who is sending it and who is receiving it?  Is it addressed to the

13     military police?

14             MR. KAY:  It's sent to the military police.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Administration to the chief.  Now, who sent it?  The

16     original and also the translation say that it's about Operation Povratak,

17     which is translated as?

18             MR. KAY:  Return.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Povratak, "Return," yes.  But, usually, we get these

20     nice letterheads, et cetera.

21             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I'm trying to again use my time as

22     sparsely as possible.  These were documents produced through the witness,

23     Mr. Flynn.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. KAY:  The cross-examination of Mr. Flynn, I didn't want to

Page 4325

 1     repeat.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, fine.

 3             MR. KAY:  Again --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  This gives me guidance.  You say I've got the

 5     answers there.  I hope that you will understand that have not every

 6     single page of the transcript on my mind, but I will look at it.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm grateful for the Court's

 9     inquiry.

10        Q.   We've just looked at two documents from the Ministry of the

11     Interior, man in charge of the police, to the military police.

12             Now we're looking at a document here, Exhibit D49, from that same

13     man, Josko Moric, to all the police administrations.  The Court has heard

14     evidence about this before, General Forand.  We see Zadar Knin there, and

15     the Court will be familiar with what that means from the Witness Elleby.

16             MR. KAY:  Page 2, please, of the English version.

17        Q.   Reports from police stations, police administrations, showing

18     torching of houses, taking property, perpetrated by -- mostly perpetrated

19     by individuals wearing Croatian army uniforms.  Issue about whether they

20     are or not.

21             Then we see an order.

22             MR. KAY:  Can we look at the next page of the English please, and

23     the next page of the Croatian.

24        Q.   Police administration chiefs, military -- commanders of military

25     police battalions are told of the problem and decision to put a stop it

Page 4326

 1     it.  Something, no doubt, you would agree would have been steps that were

 2     necessary to be taken; is that right, General Forand?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.

 4        Q.   At that meeting between the military police and the civil police,

 5     meeting must be informed of the decision that cases of torching of houses

 6     and taking property will not be operatively investigated.  That's a

 7     matter that the Court will be looking at.

 8             But a stop must be put to this type of, I put in, "behaviour" as

 9     of today.  Then a series of measures to be taken relevant to stopping

10     crime.

11             Was that something that you were aware of that was actually in

12     hand by the Croatian government?

13        A.   No, sir.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. KAY:  I won't go any further into this issue, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps one general question:  Were you aware of any

17     similar internal instructions, orders, meetings, et cetera, in order to

18     deal with the matter of crimes being committed?

19             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

21             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

22        Q.   In relation to the Croatian army, were you also aware that a

23     series of orders were issued from the Chief of Staff, General Cervenko,

24     as well as from General Gotovina of the Split military district,

25     telling -- ordering that crimes should not be committed?

Page 4327

 1        A.   No, sir.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  A there is a mistake on the transcript here, where

 3     it says General Cermak, where you said General Cervenko, I think, Chief

 4     of Staff.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And just a question of inadvertence, but to just

 6     clarify the record.  As the question has framed, it says "Were you also

 7     aware," which tends to suggest that --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please perhaps put the question again,

 9     Mr. Kay.

10             MR. KAY:

11        Q.   Should we look at a document, 65 ter 1D49, dated the 6th of

12     August.  This is from the Croatian Ministry of Defence Main Staff, so

13     headquarters.  It's a document from the Chief of the Main Staff, General

14     Cervenko.  Presumably, you knew that was his position, General Forand,

15     did you?

16        A.   I cannot say that I remember, sir.

17        Q.   Did you know what position General Cervenko was at all in the

18     Croatian army structure?

19        A.   I don't remember, sir.

20        Q.   Thank you.  It's an order that concerns you, in many respects,

21     issued on the 6th of August, 9.00.  Paragraphs 1 and 2, we need not

22     consider.  Paragraph 3:  "Once again, I warn all subordinate commanders

23     and order them to be fair to the UNCRO and other UN employees, whose

24     lives and property should not be put at any risk."

25             And:  "The military district commanders," "ZP" means military

Page 4328

 1     district, "... and others shall personally answer to me for the

 2     implementation of this order and draw up a report ..."

 3             Were you aware that, in fact, the Chief of Staff had issued a

 4     command relating to UNCRO protection of -- for you and your property?

 5        A.   No, sir.

 6             MR. KAY:  May that be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D322, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D322 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. KAY:  Exhibit 65 ter number 1958, please.

13        Q.   This is from General Cervenko as well, on the 6th of August, to

14     commanders of the military districts:  "Based on information from the

15     areas liberated by the Croatian army, and for the purpose of preventing

16     theft of property and undisciplined conduct, I hereby:"

17             Paragraph 1:  "Following entry of army members into the liberated

18     areas, prevent undisciplined conduct."

19             Paragraph 2:  "Vigorously prevent the theft of property and war

20     booty.  Take vigorous measures against perpetrators of undisciplined

21     conduct."

22             Specific, there, in relation to Croatian army members.  Were you

23     aware that orders such as that were issued?

24        A.   No, sir.

25             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this become an exhibit?

Page 4329

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D323, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D323 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KAY:  65 ter 1003.

 7        Q.   This is the last order I'm going to look at as example, General

 8     Forand, dated the 7th of August, to the commanders of military districts.

 9     An order giving various details.  It is from General Cervenko from the

10     Main Staff.

11             If we go to page 2, look at paragraph 6:  "Take all necessary

12     measures, dedicate yourself fully to the implementation of conduct of

13     military discipline, maintenance of order in the zone of responsibility.

14     Prevent burning, looting, and all other illegal acts."

15             Again, the same form of order relating to the order and

16     discipline of troops.  Were you aware of that?

17        A.   No, sir.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was there any discussion between you and your

19     headquarters in Zagreb as to the measures to be taken and discussion to

20     be had at that level at the Main Staff in relation to your complaints

21     concerning the discipline of troops?

22        A.   No, sir.

23             MR. KAY:  Again, if we can -- I appreciate I'm running out of

24     time, Your Honour, but I will look at 65 ter 881.

25             Can the previous document be made an exhibit?

Page 4330

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D324, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D324 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KAY:

 7        Q.   The next document is dated the 10th of August, 1995.  It is from

 8     the Split military district command, Zadar forward command post,

 9     operative group Sibenik, dated the 10th of August.  Order on compliance

10     with military disciplinary measures, and it's pursuant to the order by

11     the commander of the Split Military District because of information from

12     the areas liberated, analysis thereof:  " ... in order to prevent theft

13     of property, undisciplined conduct, and save human lives," it is ordered.

14             We don't need to look at paragraph 1, but if we look at

15     paragraph 2:  "Take all necessary measures and be fully engaged in the

16     implementation of military disciplinary conduct and the maintenance of

17     order in the zone of responsibility.  Prevent burning and all other

18     illegal acts.  Take resolute measures against anybody who conducts

19     himself or herself in an undisciplined manner."

20             Paragraph 4:  "The order shall become effective immediately ...

21     commanders of the directly subordinated units to be in charge of

22     implementation."

23             Those units are named there.  Commander Vukic signed it, and page

24     3 goes on to show the other units.

25             That's the 10th of August at a time when you were making

Page 4331

 1     complaints, General Forand.  Were you aware, in fact, that the commanders

 2     of units were issuing orders not to prevent -- to prevent crimes and

 3     undisciplined acts?

 4        A.   No, sir.

 5        Q.   Did anyone make you aware of the measures that were being

 6     taken --

 7        A.   Not --

 8        Q.   -- within the Croatian armed forces, orders that were being

 9     issued to prevent crimes and other illegal acts?

10        A.   Not that I remember, sir.

11             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, it's half past 10.00.  I know I'm at the

12     end of my allotment.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, apparently, you have agreed with other

14     counsel.

15             MR. KAY:  We have an agreement.  There were further orders within

16     this sequence of military measures relevant to this issue, Your Honour,

17     which are relevant to the state of mind of this witness and the

18     declarations made by him.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The type of documents that were shown to you

20     in the last five minutes, are you aware of the existence of any other

21     such, if I could say, internal follow-up documents within the Croatian

22     structures about the matters as dealt with in these documents?

23             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Tieger, I take it that if Mr. Kay wants to

25     produce such documents, that -- from the bar table, that we will hear

Page 4332

 1     from you whether there is any objection to it, first of all, as a matter

 2     of principle, and then, of course, second to every single document.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Of course, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it as a matter of principle not that you

 5     would like to have a look at them.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, of course.

 7             MR. KAY:  They are all Prosecution 65 ter documents, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, again, the fact that they are from the

 9     Prosecution, as such, is not given in itself much weight.  The only thing

10     is that, of course, the Prosecution should be aware of the existence of

11     these documents.

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.  It's that they were to be used in trial, as I

13     understood it from --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So that diminishes the risk of --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Precisely.  I mean, no one is suggesting there's

18     going to be a problem.  I would just like to see what we're talking

19     about.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  Then, Mr. Kay, there was a similar

21     issue outstanding about a bundle you produced before.

22             MR. KAY:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber would like to hear the Prosecution's

24     view on that.  I already can give a short comment, Mr. Kay, that not all

25     of these documents are translated; therefore, I think if you want to have

Page 4333

 1     a full set, that at least every document should be there, and at least in

 2     one of the official languages.  And since they were all drafted in B/C/S,

 3     the originals are there but we can't do without translations.

 4             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Not all of them are translated.  Many of them are

 6     but not all of them.

 7             MR. KAY:  They are uploaded, apparently.  The Prosecution have

 8     been diligent in relation to Your Honours' guidance as to the management

 9     of the file.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. KAY:  They are uploaded, and I anticipate if they've been

12     uploaded, that there will be a translation now in the system.  If not,

13     those are matters that we can return to with the --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. KAY:  -- translation department.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The problem is this Chamber has no access to

17     uploaded documents, as such, if they are not released.  We have a

18     different type of access where you put them at standby for being tendered

19     and admitted.  We have no access to your series of documents that are in

20     the waiting cue, as a matter of fact.

21             MR. KAY:  You're lucky, Your Honour, is all I can say.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I can usually find my way through an electronic

23     system.

24             MR. KAY:  The last document, Your Honour -- I am sorry if I

25     crossed Your Honour.  I was not being rude.  It was just to be to be made

Page 4334

 1     an exhibit, so I don't lose my document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, that was the last one of the

 3     examples given.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D325.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 8             Mr. Forand, we'll have a break until 11.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You are on your feet, may I take it you are the next

14     one to cross-examine Mr. Forand.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Forand, you will now be cross-examined by

17     Mr. Kehoe who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

19        Q.   Good morn, General.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   General, I would like to go through some items that were in your

22     statement starting with the 1996 statement, and go through several issues

23     with you.

24             MR. KEHOE:  That would be P330.

25        Q.   Then talk to you about some of the items that were in your

Page 4335

 1     recitation that you gave to the Canadian Armed Forces.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, it may be helpful if I give the hard

 3     copy to the witness with the assistance of the usher.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I have a copy for Your Honours as well

 6     as for the Prosecution.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the statement?

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Of the statement.  As well as, there's also an item

 9     to be introduced into evidence which is a comparison for the two, which

10     is in e-court at 1D28-0151.  So the witness has been given P330 and P401,

11     and a red-lined version which is 1D28-0151.

12             May I proceed, Your Honour?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may.

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   General, if we may, and if we can just briefly take a look at

16     your 1996 statement, which is P130, and go to page 3, we start with you

17     talking about:  "Let me turn to the Croatian offensive nicknamed

18     Operation Storm."

19             And if we can go to P401, which is your DEM presentation, and

20     turn to page 18, you can see, General, that the verbiage starting at the

21     top is virtually identical or it is identical, is it not?

22        A.   Yes, sir.

23        Q.   So when you -- this presentation to the DEM presentation by you

24     took place on June the 24th, and the interview in P330 took place August

25     19th and 20th, 1996.  Did they -- you provided this to the investigator,

Page 4336

 1     Mr. Robertsson, and he essentially wrote this out, did he not, following

 2     your presentation?  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Well, if I remember how it went is that I had written that

 4     presentation; and when this individual came to query me, I was using the

 5     presentation to refer to the questions he was asking me.

 6        Q.   And as you look through, even on the first sentence of the

 7     paragraph, it's the same exact words, is it not?

 8        A.   Well, I would have to go through it to see if, throughout, it's

 9     the same exact word, but it was based on my presentation, yes.

10        Q.   Let's do that, then.  In that page that we looked at, the first

11     page of page 18 -- or let us start with P330.  You note in the first

12     sentence of the second paragraph:  "Firstly, there was an orchestrated

13     psychological campaign of troops and equipment movements by the Croatian

14     forces ..."

15             Do you see that, sir?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17        Q.   In your presentation, there is -- the rest of the sentence has

18     been deleted.  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And in your presentation, it reads, "Firstly, there was an

21     orchestrated psychological campaign of troop and equipment movements by

22     the Croatian force, calculated to keep the ARSK on edge and to mislead

23     them as to their intentions."

24             Now, that last part --

25             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  "Future intentions" is what it

Page 4337

 1     says.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  I apologise "future intentions ..."

 3        Q.   Now that last part has been stricken from your statement.  When

 4     you wrote your presentation to the DEM, did you intend that sentence to

 5     be directed towards a psychological campaign against the ARSK?

 6        A.   You mean that last sentence to mislead them as to their future

 7     intention?

 8        Q.   You say, in D401, your DEM presentation," ... calculated to keep

 9     the ARSK on edge and to mislead them as to their future intentions."

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So when you were talking about the psychological campaign in your

12     statement, you were talking about a psychological campaign to keep the

13     ARSK, the army, on edge, weren't you?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15             MR. KEHOE:  For ease of reference, Your Honour, I may -- we can

16     flip back and forth, but if we can put 1D280-151 on the screen, Judge,

17     that is the statement that I have taken the liberty to red line through,

18     so for ease of reference.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It's certainly assists for comparison reasons.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Frankly, Your Honour, it's difficult at times, so we

21     did this just because of that.

22             We can turn to the next page.

23             I also want to note, Your Honour, that the entire 401 has not

24     been translated because some of it was not, of course, part of -- part of

25     P330 because it had to do with some other matters.

Page 4338

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It's now the second time.  I refrained from

 2     commenting it the first time; but when you said "it's stricken from your

 3     statement," it does not appear in the statement.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  It does not appear in the statement.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that's here also, you now said, because of

 6     course it was not part of P330.  The witness explained that P330 was

 7     created by frequent reference to his presentation, but not that it was

 8     part of it and not that it ...

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   Now let us move down to where it says "thirdly," and move to the

12     bottom of that paragraph.

13             MR. KEHOE:  If we go to the next page in the red line.

14        Q.   Now, the way it reads in your statement to the OTP, it notes:

15     "Even after the fall of Grahovo, it was business as usual in Knin with

16     the few soldiers that were there due to rotation or manning the barracks.

17     They were lounging in bars or shopping in the streets.  We saw no

18     defensive position erected, no blocking positions created.  A very

19     strange reaction given the overall situation."

20             MR. KEHOE:  Let us turn to the item in P401.

21        Q.   And you note in P401, and this is on page 19, that:  "Even after

22     the fall of Grahovo, it was business as usual with soldiers lounging in

23     the bars or shopping in the streets."

24             In your statement to the DEM, there is no adjective "few" there.

25     Do you see that, sir?

Page 4339

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Likewise, in your statement to the OTP, after it notes that there

 3     was a few soldiers, there is the inclusion "that were there due to

 4     rotation or manning the barracks."

 5             Now, no such description is set forth in your statement to

 6     the OTP.  You only note that there are soldiers in the town; is that

 7     right?

 8        A.   That's what's written there, yes, sir.

 9        Q.   And you, sir, when you saw these soldiers, really had no idea

10     what they were doing, if they were stationed there or they were moving in

11     and out, do you?

12        A.   Yes, sir.  That's true, yes.

13             MR. KEHOE:  I'm just letting the translators catch up, General.

14        Q.   Now, if we can turn to your statement that you gave to the DEM,

15     you said, "We saw only a small --"

16        A.   Sorry.  It's not a statement.

17        Q.   It's a presentation.

18        A.   It's a big difference, in my view; and to them, that was a daily

19     executive meeting.  That was the chief of defence staff and the three

20     star in the armed forces, but I never gave that -- even though it was

21     slated to be given to them, I never gave that presentation to the daily

22     executive meeting.

23        Q.   Okay, sir.  So this was just something that was written by you

24     but never actually presented?

25        A.   Not to the daily executive meeting.  I presented it maybe three,

Page 4340

 1     four times to some of the military that had been with me in Croatia, you

 2     know, afterwards as I was moving throughout the country but, it was not

 3     presented to the daily executive meeting.

 4        Q.   Thank you for that clarification, General.

 5             If we can go back to this and go to the next sentence, you say

 6     that:  "We saw only a small increase of military traffic towards the

 7     border."

 8             Now, that is not in your 1993 statement to the OTP.  Is that

 9     accurate, sir, that you did, in fact, see -- excuse me, 1996.  Is that

10     accurate that you did, in fact, see an increase in military traffic

11     towards the border?

12        A.   The -- how this presentation came about was obviously over a

13     series of months, and some of what I put in there obviously is my own

14     previous reflection, but it was based on information that I possessed at

15     that time.  And when we say there was no -- in that instance, it was near

16     Strmica, which was close to the border of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and not

17     too far from Bos Grahovo.

18             And the report I was getting from the Kenyan observation post

19     that was there reflected that they had not seen any increase, you know,

20     in military traffic.  That's what I referred to in this particular

21     sentence.

22        Q.   That they had not seen an increase?

23        A.   Yes, sir.

24        Q.   Well, let's go through that.  You were aware that in the summer

25     of 1995, the HV had successfully taken -- late July 1995, that the HV had

Page 4341

 1     successfully taken Grahovo?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   And were you aware that the HV -- excuse me, that the ARSK was

 4     moving troops and supplies up to the Strmica area to counter the HV

 5     advances?

 6        A.   No, sir.

 7        Q.   Well, let me show you D222.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  We'll go back to the red line in a moment, Your

 9     Honour.

10        Q.   Now, this is a map, sir, of movement between Knin to Strmica and

11     to the Grahovo area.  Are you familiar with this route?

12        A.   I'm familiar with the route, but not this map.

13        Q.   I understand.  And are you -- but you're unfamiliar or you have

14     no knowledge of troops or supplies moving, using that route to augment

15     ARSK forces on the front between Strmica and Grahovo?

16        A.   No, sir.  The report that I had during that period was they were

17     ARSK troop moving from Knin towards Bihac.

18        Q.   Towards Bihac.

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   Now let me turn your attention to D223.

21             General, this is a letter from General Mrksic to General Janvier

22     in Zagreb, protesting shelling on the Drvar-Grahovo-Knin road, and notes

23     this has put in jeopardy the transportation of humanitarian aid.

24             Did you receive this letter?

25        A.   No, sir.

Page 4342

 1        Q.   Did you receive any information coming from Zagreb that the ARSK

 2     was complaining about HV shelling in the Strmica area?

 3        A.   I don't remember anything coming from Zagreb, but there was some

 4     sitrep where there was some exchange of fire occurring between the ARSK

 5     and the HVO troops in that particular area within that time-frame, yes,

 6     sir.

 7        Q.   Well, did -- I'm just taking a pause between our question and

 8     answer.

 9             Did you talk to the ARSK about the shelling by the HVO up

10     around -- excuse me, by the HV, in and around the Strmica area?

11        A.   I don't remember, sir.

12        Q.   Well, let me ask you:  Mr. Jeff Hill, or Captain Hill, was your

13     chief of military police or the head of the military police; is that

14     right?

15        A.   He was under operational -- my operational control, which meant

16     that I could give him some specific tasks but, he was under operational

17     command of UNCRO.  But he was located with his people in our headquarter,

18     yes, sir.

19        Q.   General, in latter part of July, Mr. Hill testified that he went

20     up to the Strmica area.

21             And on page 3812, line 21, he notes, this is the question:  "Now,

22     were the front lines that you stumbled into ARSK front lines?"

23             Answer:  "Yes."

24             Question:  "They now had tanks.  T-80 and T-84s are the more

25     modern versions of the former JNA tanks, aren't they?"

Page 4343

 1             Answer:  "It is a designation for the JNA tank.  But T-80, for

 2     example, was known as the T-72 by NATO Russian, one of their better ones.

 3     T-84 is an APC JNA, which is actually a BMP-2 Russian NATO."

 4             He talks about is seeing a lot of brass on the road on 3814.

 5             "When you noticed that there was a lot of brass on the road, what

 6     did you mean by that Captain?"

 7             "From their cannons on the APCs, the road was littered with

 8     cannon shells.  We were actually driving over them."

 9             That same page, 3814:  "Are these shells coming from the

10     ARSK APCs?"

11             Answer:  "Yes."

12             Now, we can go on.  Now, did Captain Hill come back and inform

13     you, while he was up, that there were, in fact, military weaponry in that

14     area that was firing into the HVO line?

15        A.   I don't remember Captain Hill briefing me; but as I mentioned

16     earlier, we were aware that there was exchange of fire that had been

17     ongoing in that particular area.

18        Q.   Now, you noted that --

19             MR. KEHOE:  If I can have one moment.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. KEHOE:

22        Q.   Just as an aside, you noted for us that you had some control over

23     the military police, and you made a distinction between operational

24     command and operational control.  Can you explain that for us?

25        A.   Operational control is that I can give him some tasks, you know,

Page 4344

 1     which he will do for me, like certain inquiry, certain type of specific

 2     task.  But he was under the command of the UNCRO headquarters which

 3     provided him, you know, direct orders, plus administrative support and

 4     all of that.

 5        Q.   Now, in the latter part of July, you tasked Captain Berikoff to

 6     go up to the Strmica area, didn't you?

 7        A.   I don't remember.  I remember that I went myself once because I

 8     wanted to ensure that the Kenyan observation post that was there

 9     increased their security, because I had given order to all of my people

10     that if ever there was an attack from the Croat side, I wanted them to

11     remain in their observation post and I wanted them to increase their own

12     security.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Well, if we can turn to 1D28-0019, which is a excerpt

14     from Captain Berikoff's diary.

15        Q.   At the top of the page, on 30, 31, 30 July, Sunday:  "Up at 0700,

16     another day.  Not sure what will happen today.  It was quiet last night.

17     Everything tasked to go and spend the night in Strmica with the Kenyans.

18     Very interesting.  Saw all kinds of equipment on the way there:  BMPs,

19     M-12s, anti-tank gun, M-84 tanks, and everything.  Shelling started at

20     1830 and continued for an hour and a half.  Two M-84 tanks crossed border

21     of BH at about 1900.  Then one came back a couple of hours later.  Many

22     ARSK around the area."

23             If you note on July 31st:  "Departed the crossing point at 0630.

24     Returned to Sector South HQ, briefed the General."

25             Do you recall that, General?

Page 4345

 1        A.   No, sir.

 2        Q.   So you don't recall sending Captain Berikoff up there?

 3        A.   No, sir.

 4        Q.   Now, the sending of Captain Berikoff up there, would that have

 5     been because you didn't have faith in the Kenyan Battalion?

 6        A.   Well, I wouldn't say it's not because I had faith; it's just to

 7     get complementary information.

 8        Q.   Now, when you ultimately wrote to General Gotovina in this --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to P336, which is a letter from you to

10     General Gotovina, 31 July 1995.

11        Q.   Without reading this letter in it's entirety, you bring General

12     Gotovina aware of your UN elements in Strmica.  But in this letter, you

13     say nothing about civilians, do you?

14        A.   No, sir, because all I'm talking about is my UN observation

15     posts.

16        Q.   Well, I understand.  However, if we go to P333, paragraph 4, you

17     note on -- in paragraph 4, you noted:  "In late July ..."

18             This is your 2008 statement:  "In late July, 1995, the town of

19     Strmica had come under artillery fire from HV/HVO positions in the area

20     of Bosanski Grahovo.  In addition to the civilians in that area, there

21     was a KenBat observation post near the border at Strmica."

22             Now, we just noted in P336 that there was no mention of civilians

23     in your letter to General Gotovina.

24             MR. KEHOE:  And if we can bring up P337, and if we can go to

25     page 3 of that document -- make that 4.

Page 4346

 1        Q.   And under the miscellaneous paragraph, if we can go to the next

 2     page, this is discussing --

 3             MR. KEHOE:  If we stay on the bottom of that page one moment.

 4        Q.   You can see at the bottom the --

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Go back to the prior page, just one moment, I

 6     apologise.

 7        Q.   If we note at the bottom on paragraph 3:  "SLO Sector South

 8     visited the area the Strmica."  This has to do with Colonel Tymchuk's

 9     visit to Strmica.

10             If we go to the next page, the top paragraph, about midway

11     through, it notes:  "For most of the 70 minutes spent in the area, the

12     sound of artillery could be heard with many projectiles from the Croat

13     side impacting within a kilometre.  There were no civilians evident in

14     Strmica."

15             General, do you know when the civilians that had been in Strmica

16     left Strmica?

17        A.   No, sir.

18        Q.   Now, throughout the next several days, you received sitreps, did

19     you not, that there was continuous exchange of fire in the Strmica area

20     between the ARSK and the HV, didn't you?

21        A.   I seem to recall that, yes, sir.  I think it's reflected in the

22     sitrep, also.

23        Q.   Yes.  Now, during this period of time, were you in contact with

24     the ARSK forces in Knin in late July?

25        A.   I don't remember, myself, personally.  Some of my staff might

Page 4347

 1     have been.  I don't remember myself.

 2        Q.   Would it be fair to say that Colonel Tymchuk might have been in

 3     contact with him?

 4        A.   Either Colonel Tymchuk or Colonel Leslie, who was my Chief of

 5     Staff at that time.

 6        Q.   Did either Colonel Leslie or Colonel Tymchuk tell you that, in

 7     conversation with the ARSK, that they were planning an offensive known as

 8     "Dinara 95" against the HVO to retake Grahovo?

 9        A.   I don't recall that, sir.

10        Q.   Let me see if one thing refreshes your recollection.

11             MR. KEHOE:  If we can turn to D161, page 3.

12        Q.   And I know you haven't seen this document, General.  I just ask

13     if this refreshes your memory.  I suspect you haven't seen it.  This is

14     an account of the chief logistics officer of the ARSK.

15             MR. KEHOE:  If we can turn to the insert for 30 July 1995,

16     three-quarters down the page.

17        Q.   If we can just read that, 30 July 1995:  "I took part in making

18     plans for attacking Operation Dinara 95.  Also 220 soldiers were planned

19     for this operation with the assistance of the RSK, air force and units of

20     the 7th Corps, 15th Corps, and the Special Units Corps.  The goal of this

21     operation was to liberate Grahovo in coordination with the VRS," VRS

22     being the Bosnian Serb army.

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 4348

 1        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection in this regard at all?

 2        A.   No, sir.  I never saw that.

 3        Q.   Now, going back to your statement.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  And if we could go back to the red line, which is

 5     1D28-0151.

 6        Q.   If we can go back to your statement to the Office of the

 7     Prosecutor, as well as the DEM presentation, in the last sentence of your

 8     OTP statement, you say you saw no defensive positions erected.

 9             In your statement -- excuse me.  In your presentation, I'm sorry,

10     in your presentation, DEM presentation, you note:  "We saw only a small

11     increase of military traffic towards the border, no new defensive

12     positions erected."

13             Now, during the time you were there, were there defensive

14     positions that you observed?

15        A.   Not me personally, no, sir.

16        Q.   Well, through your personnel that were travelling in the area?

17        A.   When I had been briefed, when I arrived in the sector, I had been

18     briefed that there was certain defensive positions that were in place,

19     yes.

20        Q.   And were these put in place by the ARSK?

21        A.   Yes, sir.

22        Q.   Yet in this particular presentation, the word you have "new" has

23     been deleted from your statement?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I just think there should be some geographic

Page 4349

 1     specificity with that question:  Where and what the defensive positions

 2     were.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You can, of course, deal with that in

 4     re-examination.  But if we could already, if there is a real risk of

 5     confusion and mixing up, then you are invited, Mr. Kehoe, to avoid that

 6     to happen.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   If we can if we can move into the "fourthly" paragraph, in that

 9     first in your statement, you note that:  "Fourthly, on the RSK side,

10     their continuous hard like taken towards negotiations and the ARSK

11     support of the Bosnian Serb offensive against Bihac from Sector North

12     were pointless actions that only contributed to the sense of hopelessness

13     in the Krajina."

14             The next sentence:  "These actions also played into the hands of

15     the Croats by giving them an argument for the military option which in a

16     way, I think, President Tudjman and his Generals wanted ..."

17             Let us turn our attention to the presentation and focus on that

18     last sentence:  "These actions also played into the hands of the Croats

19     by giving them a valid argument for the military option.  To this day, it

20     is hard to understand the reasoning by those who ordered these actions or

21     did not take the appropriate measures in reaction to the evolving threat.

22     There must be some unknown factors or deals here."

23             Your presentation at the time, in June of 1996, described the

24     Operation Storm, or the beginning of Operation Storm, being premised on a

25     valid argument; isn't that right?

Page 4350

 1        A.   That's what is written there, yes, sir.

 2        Q.   And that was written by you?

 3        A.   Yes, sir, but it was based on my interpretation.  You know that

 4     made it clear when I made that presentation that was based, you know, of

 5     what I had been -- what I had seen and what was my interpretation of what

 6     had happened, and it was not based on all complete and full proof.

 7        Q.   I understand.  Let us continue on, on this score.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. KEHOE:

10        Q.   By the way, General, just looking at P330, the OTP statement, who

11     typed this?

12        A.   I beg your pardon?

13        Q.   This statement that the Office of the Prosecutor -- that you

14     signed for the Office of the Prosecutor, who typed this?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   Let us continue on, and we go to the paragraph starting at the

17     bottom, "I truly believe," that carries on to the next page.

18             It notes:  "I truly believe that by the eve of war, the Krajina

19     had been psychologically defeated.  I am not a proponent of certain

20     propaganda line that the HV are a powerful professional force."

21             Just starting from there, General, you knew that this was an army

22     that had just begun, isn't that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Had been formed approximately a year or so prior to Operation

25     Storm?

Page 4351

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   "Most of their attacks were uncoordinated and went nowhere.  It

 3     was not obvious that they have mastered the tactics of interaction of

 4     combat arms.  The use of artillery was excellent when being used against

 5     military targets."

 6             Let us stop right there.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  If we can turn back to Exhibit 401.

 8        Q.   And on page 20 of 45 at the top paragraph, the sentence that you

 9     have is, the top paragraph, that:  "The use of artillery was excellent,

10     but the coordination between artillery, tanks, and infantry was not

11     evident."

12             Now, what's included in the OTP statement that's not included in

13     your presentation is the following:  "Their use of artillery was

14     excellent when being used against military targets; however, the

15     artillery was, to a large extent, used against villages and towns like

16     Knin, and not against targets in the zone of separation.  This shelling

17     created mass panic among the population and forced it to leave."

18             Now, we see, first, that the -- your description in your

19     presentation, as you wrote it in your presentation, was meant to be a

20     complement on the accuracy of HVO artillery fire, wasn't it?

21        A.   I'm not so sure if it was meant to be perceived as complement,

22     but that's the way I wrote it there.  But I think I explained a little

23     bit later on, you know, where the shelling has taken place.

24        Q.   Well, suffice it to say, that you noted that it was excellent?

25        A.   Yeah.

Page 4352

 1        Q.   And you -- going on to the sentence following, you don't include

 2     in your presentation that:  "... the shelling created mass panic among

 3     the population and forced it to flee."  That's in page 20 in your

 4     presentation at the top.

 5        A.   Yes.  But I wrote later on why the Serbs did not shell the

 6     Croatian city, as the HV were doing to them.  I mean, what you have here

 7     in my statement, you know, is a very condensed of what was in my

 8     presentation.  I think you have to go through the whole presentation if

 9     you want to make those type of relationship.

10        Q.   We'll do that.

11        A.   Okay.

12        Q.   Let's continue on.  What's also left out, if we move on and stay

13     in your presentation, starting with the paragraph of:  "However, we have

14     to recognise that the Croatians had tremendous strategic success and that

15     their small special force units did successfully accomplish special

16     missions."

17             Now, that particular sentence is not included in the statement to

18     the OTP.  Now, would you consider that to be a complementary statement

19     for the HV?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   Did you make the decision not to include it in your statement to

22     the Office of the Prosecutor?

23        A.   I don't remember.  I don't think that I wilfully exempted certain

24     things from my deposition that was in my presentation.

25        Q.   General, did you give this statement to Mr. Robertsson, and he

Page 4353

 1     retyped this and gave it back to you to sign [Realtime transcript read in

 2     error "resign"]?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.

 4        Q.   Let's continue on.  After you note that the Croats don't possess

 5     a professional army, this is the overall sentence, it notes in your OTP

 6     statement:  "I believe that the Croatians do not possess a professional

 7     army or have developed a capability to utilise the combat power to its

 8     full extent.  The result may have been different had the ARSK not

 9     stripped some of its resources in Bihac, but instead prepared second and

10     third defence lines especially in the areas that favour this, and would

11     have been able to sustain the fear of the HV, the HV artillery attacks

12     against villages and towns, especially Knin, instead of panicking and

13     evacuating the civilian population."

14             Now, let us turn to your presentation on that score.  After you

15     note again that, I believe, verbatim:  "I believe that the Croatians do

16     not possess a professional army or have developed the capability to

17     utilise combat power to its full extent.  The results may have been quite

18     different had the ARSK not tripped some of its resources to unducate the

19     Bihac offensive, or had not taken the decision on 4 August to order the

20     withdrawal of the civilian population from Sector South.  By this last

21     action, the RSK appeared to be giving up and inevitably initiated the

22     general retreat that followed."

23             Now, General, that passage, we've noted, is not included in your

24     OTP statement; and in that statement, you maintain that the decision to

25     evacuate - and I don't want to put words in your mouth, General; you can

Page 4354

 1     correct me if I am wrong - the decision to evacuate was the trigger that

 2     initiated the general retreat that followed, wasn't it?

 3        A.   That was certainly a great factor, yes.

 4        Q.   Now, when Mr. Robertsson retyped this for you, General, he did

 5     not include that sentence in your statement to the OTP, did he?

 6        A.   No, it's not there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I have some --

 8             Mr. Kehoe, one of your earlier questions was:  "General, did you

 9     give this statement to Mr. Robertsson, and he retyped this and gave it

10     back to you to" sign, I take it.  It says "resign."  But, first of all,

11     it talks about the statement.  Do I have to understand your testimony to

12     be that you gave your written presentation --

13             MR. KEHOE:  Presentation, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to Mr. Robertsson?

15             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure if I gave it to him, sir, or if I was

16     referring to my presentation when he was asking me question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, you earlier said:  "I don't know

18     who typed it."  And in this answer, you say, "He retyped this," which

19     suggests that you would know who typed the statement as given to the OTP.

20             THE WITNESS:  Did I just say that, that he retyped this?  I don't

21     remember that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was part of a question.  The question

23     was:  "General, did you give this statement," and apparently Mr. Kehoe

24     had on his mind his presentation to Mr. Robertsson, "and he retyped this

25     and gave it back to you to," I take it you said "sign."

Page 4355

 1             Then your answer was:  "Yes, sir."

 2             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge, this DEM presentation was received

 3     from the Office of the Prosecutor as part of -- coming from the

 4     Canadians -- excuse me, signed by General Forand, and as an exhibit to

 5     one of his statements.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you mean.  He identified it as --

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But, still, the retyping is rather unclear to me.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  I will clarify it, Judge.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you please do so, because I'm a bit

11     confused.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   General, the presentation that you put together for 24 June 1996,

14     you gave this to the OTP -- the Office of the Prosecutor's investigator,

15     didn't you?

16        A.   I'm not sure if it was in 1996 or 1997, but they have a copy of

17     it, yes, sir.

18        Q.   Now, when your statement was written that you signed, P330,

19     you -- were you the person who typed this or did one of the investigators

20     type it before you signed it?

21        A.   I didn't type it.  I think the statement was taken on a tape and

22     it was sent back to me, you know, to verify, you know, if it was what I

23     had said, and I signed it; and if I remember well, I sent it back.

24        Q.   With all due respect, General, I think you're talking about the

25     second statement that was on tape.

Page 4356

 1        A.   Possibly.

 2        Q.   There was an awful --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   There was a statement that was on tape, in fairness, General.

 5        A.   So it was the first one?  I don't remember, sir.

 6        Q.   Now, General, if we can continue on, on this score --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I still try to find out.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What Mr. Kehoe is putting to you is that there is a

10     striking resemblance of major portions of your August 1996 statement

11     compared to the 24th of June presentation.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Many lines just the same, apparently portions taken

14     out, portions added.  First of all, the 24th of June, 1996 presentation,

15     had you typed it out your is self or did you have an electronic copy

16     available to yourself?  The presentation.

17             THE WITNESS:  I did not type it personally, no, sir.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It was typewritten for you.

19             THE WITNESS:  It was typewritten, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you have an electronic copy of the text?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever provide that electronic copy to the

23     persons who interviewed you two months later, mid-August 1996.

24             THE WITNESS:  I don't remember, sir, and I don't remember if I

25     gave them that copy in 1996 or in 1997, you know.  When it was provided

Page 4357

 1     to them, I don't remember.  But, in all likelihood, if it was provided, I

 2     would have given them also an electronic copy.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now when you signed this August 1996

 4     statement, did you read it carefully again?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Last question on this issue:  The presentation, you

 7     said you didn't type it out.  Did you give the formulations?  I mean was

 8     it that you wrote it down in handwriting, or I mean if someone else typed

 9     it out, was it on the basis of what you had dictated in a machine or

10     written down on paper?

11             THE WITNESS:  The way it started, sir, it was a Major Balfour,

12     and I had told him I wanted to prepare something on my return to Canada.

13     I gave him the headings that needed to be covered, and I said start on

14     this.  So it was a working document that took almost a year to be

15     completed when I returned to Canada.  But Major Balfour had started to

16     collect all the slides, the photo, and all of that.  So he gave me a CD.

17     When I came back home, I started to put it together.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Now, in your presentation that we just read on page 20,

22     concerning the evacuation, you don't use the word - and I'm talking about

23     the second paragraph on page 20 - you don't use the word "panicking" or

24     "evacuating," do you?

25        A.   No, it's not there, sir.

Page 4358

 1        Q.   Now, if we can continue on, on this, this is another matter that

 2     is paragraph -- if we go down to the paragraph, "To this day ..."

 3             In your presentation, it notes:  "To this day, there are

 4     questions to which I have no answers.  Why was there no second line of

 5     defence prepared, especially when the ground favours it?  The only

 6     military aim that the ARSK could have had to buy time demanded it."

 7             Now, again, that is not in your OTP statement, and my question is

 8     on the issue of buying time.  What were you talking about, General, with

 9     the ARSK buying time?

10             Now we're talking about your page 20 of 45 of your presentation.

11        A.   Well, in order for them, you know, to be able to further develop

12     their defensive position, which they had not done at this particular

13     time.

14        Q.   Well, I mean, if they had a second and third line defence

15     position, your testimony is that that would have bought them some time?

16        A.   If they would have been able to block the HV attack, you know,

17     when that would have happened, then, obviously, the longer it would have

18     taken the Croat to retake the Krajina, the more time maybe, you know,

19     some external organisation or country would have step up and say, "Okay,

20     let's stop the fighting and resume the discussion."  That's what I had in

21     mind there.

22        Q.   Just to flesh that out a bit, General, were you contemplating the

23     Bosnian Serb army or the JNA intervening to come to the aid and

24     assistance of the ARSK?

25        A.   No, sir, that's not what I had in mind there.  All I was trying

Page 4359

 1     to portray, if they had developed, you know, secondary defensive position

 2     which the terrain, from my point of view, allowed them to do, they could

 3     have stopped potentially the attack, and potentially, you know, the

 4     discussion for peace would have resumed.  That was what I meant by that.

 5        Q.   Who did you have in mind was going to come in and intervene?

 6        A.   Intervene?  Well, the United Nations.

 7        Q.   Thank you for that.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Let us move on in the statement, if we may, and if we

 9     can go back to the 1D28-0051, the red line.

10        Q.   By the way, General, following up on what you just said, waiting

11     for the UN to intervene.  You were the UN.

12        A.   But I don't think I had that type of authority.  I was referring

13     back to my experience in 1974 in Cyprus, where after the initial Turkish

14     attack, there was a lull in the battle that was imposed by the United

15     Nations before it resumed.  So, in my mind, you know, if there was

16     sufficient capability for the ARSK to defend, potentially the UN may have

17     put some pressure on both sides to resume the peace.  So that's what I

18     had in mind.

19        Q.   Was there discussion about that, that, in fact, if there was some

20     battle that was resisted, that the UN would, in fact, intervene to bring

21     about a secession of hostilities?

22        A.   Not to my knowledge.

23        Q.   Let us turn to your presentation, and I will take you through.

24             MR. KEHOE:  And I apologise if I jump and a bit.

25        Q.   I want to turn to page 22 of your presentation, and I believe

Page 4360

 1     that will go -- begins the paragraph, "The first successful area ..."

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yeah, that's it.  If we can go to the red line up a

 3     couple of pages.  At the red line, it starts with, "The first successful

 4     area," at the top.  It's 1D28-0151 and page 6 of that document.

 5        Q.   Now, General, we actually have -- this is, as you can see,

 6     much -- starting of that has been stricken, but let's just go through

 7     this very quickly.

 8             We're talking about events on the 4th:  "The first area is the

 9     successful penetration in the south-east by HV 10 company when they came

10     over the Dinara mountains from Bosnia.  This was during the 4 August

11     around 10.00 a.m. ..."

12             And we now move into a discussion of a particular area that is

13     not in the statement, and I take it from the presentation 401, page 22:

14             "This was done during 4 August around 10.00 a.m., and the

15     question of the lack of ARSK defences in the area must be revisited.  The

16     Serbs were well aware of the threat, especially following the fall of

17     Grahovo, but did not react to defend, block, or counter it.  As soon as

18     the penetration began, the ARSK abandoned their positions at Maljkovo and

19     fled without blocking a six-kilometre portion of road, which was the

20     ideal choke point for reserve demolitions or blocking positions.  This

21     gave the HV the opportunity to link up their force advancing from the

22     south and reinforce on a major route."

23             Now --

24             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, minor correction.  Again, just to get the

25     record straight; not "the ideal" but "an ideal."

Page 4361

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Apologies.  Thank you.  "An ideal."

 2        Q.   Now, taking a look at that, General, I would like to bring an

 3     item up on the screen because you talk about Maljkovo.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  It's 1D28-0173 -- 74, please.

 5        Q.   General, this is a -- one of the slides from your outline that

 6     has Maljkovo present there; do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   That's the area that you're talking about that is north of the

 9     lake that was the choke point; right?

10        A.   Yes, sir.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Now let me go to the next map, which is 0173, the one

12     we just had up on the screen.

13        Q.   Now, General, I have an item on the screen.  As you can see,

14     Maljkovo is not on the north part of the lake but on the south part of

15     the lake, and it appears from your map that you were, in fact, talking

16     about the choke point at Vrlika; is that right?

17        A.   As I said, from the area of Maljkovo.

18        Q.   I understand, General, but your prior map on Maljkovo had

19     Maljkovo north of the lake?

20        A.   It was not the precise map, you know, it was end round.

21        Q.   Well, Maljkovo is, in fact, all the way down at the bottom of the

22     lake.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Were you, in fact, talking about Vrlika?

25        A.   I was talking from the direction of Maljkovo.

Page 4362

 1        Q.   Well, do you see where Maljkovo is on the map?

 2        A.   Yeah, I see that.

 3        Q.   And, so, your position is that you were talking about the -- when

 4     you were dealing with your map, you were talking about the Maljkovo at

 5     the bottom of that page?

 6             General, if looking at the map, the choke point of the

 7     convergence of these roads is in Vrlika, isn't it?

 8        A.   No.  To me, I was saying is that there were some defensive

 9     positions at Maljkovo, which they fled, they didn't stay there.  So

10     whatever was coming from the south was able to link up with the

11     10 company that came in from the east in the Dinara.  That's all I'm

12     saying in what you see on my presentation.

13        Q.   Well, were you familiar with the ARSK positions in Vrlika?

14        A.   Familiar, in what sense?

15        Q.   Well, did you know of those ARSK positions in Vrlika?

16        A.   There were some, yes, but I'm not that familiar with it.

17        Q.   Well, I just want to ask you, given your testimony, that Vrlika

18     is in the Cetina valley, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   And you stated during the course of your direct testimony, at

21     page 4117:  Question:  "Did you see any evidence of Serb weaponry or

22     positions in the area where the shelling was taking place or where the

23     harvest was being prevented?"

24             Answer:  "No.  I did what I would think or qualify as a complete

25     tour of the area, and I didn't see none of those weapons."

Page 4363

 1             Now, how many times did you actually travel in the Cetina Valley,

 2     sir?

 3        A.   Only once.

 4        Q.   And when was that?

 5        A.   I think it was around -- it was in July.  It must have been

 6     around the 11th or 12th of July.  It's in the sitrep.

 7        Q.   And sir, during that period of time, there were, in fact,

 8     restrictions of movement transpiring in the Cetina Valley by the ARSK,

 9     right?

10        A.   Not that I remember, no, sir.

11        Q.   Well, did you have -- you had restrictions of movement by the

12     ARSK during that time, sir, didn't you?

13        A.   I don't remember that, sir.

14        Q.   Let's go back to your statement, if we can, 401 -- the

15     presentation, excuse me.

16             401, page 10, third paragraph from the top:  "The army of the

17     republic of Serb Krajina or ARSK were better known to us as we dealt with

18     them on a daily basis.  Nonetheless, we only had a superficial

19     appreciation of their strengths and weaknesses as they also restricted

20     our movements.  And following the 1st May attack of Sector West, they had

21     withdrawn all of their equipment from the storage -- weapons storage

22     area, therefore inhibiting our accounting and verification of their

23     assets."

24             So, after May the 1st, did you have restriction of movement in

25     the Cetina valley?

Page 4364

 1        A.   I don't remember the Cetina valley.  You are asking me

 2     specifically if it was restricted.  I don't remember that.  When went

 3     over there, I was restricted to go around the whole area.  This statement

 4     that you've just read in my presentation meant that certain areas we

 5     could not go.

 6        Q.   Where could you not go?

 7        A.   I don't remember.

 8        Q.   Now, this also notes - and when I say "this," I'm talking about

 9     your presentation - that:  "The ARSK had withdrawn all their equipment

10     from the storage area, therefore inhibiting our accounting and

11     verification of their assets."

12             So it would be accurate to say that you don't know what kind of

13     weaponry the ARSK had; isn't that right?

14        A.   Well, maybe not me specifically; but before I had arrived, the

15     United Nations had been there for a certain period of time.  I think I

16     they had a certain knowledge of what the ARSK possess.  You've got to

17     remember also that my mandate was in the zone of separation, plus the 13

18     Croat village and the four crossing border point.  The responsibility on

19     monitoring the equipment on both side was of the military observer

20     responsibility.

21        Q.   General, in July -- and let me again give you the testimony of

22     Mr. Hill, Captain Hill, page 3809.

23             He testified here on the 28th of May, talking about the equipment

24     in the Cetina Valley:  "The equipment, this heavy equipment, heavy

25     artillery pieces and tanks that you saw in and around Vrlika, can you

Page 4365

 1     explain with a little more specificity, Captain, exactly, what you say?"

 2             Answer:  "When we say "tanks," it would be T-54s or T-72s, NATO

 3     designation; APCs; MP-2s; and the artillery would be towed at

 4     130 millimetre."

 5             Now, did Captain Hill tell you about that equipment that he

 6     observed in the Cetina valley in late July?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I note that the answer, or the question, didn't

 9     specify a time period, and I thought that would be obviously helpful to

10     the question and potential answer.  But I think, after I rose, I think

11     Mr. Kehoe mentioned it was in late July.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So the matter is moot.

13             Please proceed.  Answer the question, please.

14             THE WITNESS:  It was on the typing; it's marked 28th of May.  I

15     arrive only -- I took over on the 8th of July.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   I'm sorry, General.  That's his testimony, 28th of May, 2008.

18     That's when he testified here.  I apologise if I wasn't clear.  That's

19     what he testified to when he was here on 28th May.

20        A.   So which date are you referring that he saw that equipment?

21        Q.   He says in late July of 1995?

22             MR. TIEGER:  It says -- according to the question posed to you,

23     it says:  "At the end of the July, he noted that ..."

24             MR. KEHOE:  Late July, end of July.  I apologise --

25             MR. TIEGER:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I just think that

Page 4366

 1     references to the document seem preferable.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

 3             THE WITNESS:  When I went there, sir, I didn't see that

 4     particular equipment, and I don't recall Captain Hill briefing me on

 5     that.  It's possible, but I don't recall.

 6             MR. KEHOE:

 7        Q.   And the UNMOs in the area, there was a Mr. Tchernetsky that

 8     testified that:  "There was an anti-aircraft gun, an anti-aircraft

 9     artillery ..." --

10             This is what he says on page 3270 line 3:  "In Kijevo, also in

11     the Cetina valley, there was an anti-aircraft artillery piece, an

12     anti-aircraft gun.  It was either 57- or 76-millimetres in calibre.  I

13     cannot remember exactly."

14             Did you know about that particular item?

15        A.   I don't remember, sir.

16        Q.   Did you learn or do you recall any military positions that the

17     ARSK had in the Cetina valley at all?

18        A.   When I went to visit the Kenyan observation post, there was some

19     offensive position in the Dinara mountain that the ARSK occupied, but I

20     don't remember seeing any major equipment, heavy equipment, in that

21     particular area.

22        Q.   And that would come from the -- the one occasion that you were

23     there?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   Now, in your letter to General Gotovina - by the way, I mean just

Page 4367

 1     to speed through this - there was, in fact, a secession of shelling to

 2     allow the harvest to continue; isn't that right?

 3        A.   After I had written the second letter, yeah, there was a period

 4     of time, I think a couple of weeks, where there was no shelling that took

 5     place, to allow the people to gather the -- what was on the ground.

 6        Q.   Right.  And let me just turn your attention to P334, and I'm

 7     talking about the last paragraph.  This is a letter to General Gotovina,

 8     9 July 1995.

 9             You note in the last paragraph:  "I remain determined to reach a

10     negotiated settlement to the hostilities in the Dinara Mountains area,

11     including the withdrawal of Serb heavy weapons to storage sites."

12             Did you do that, General?

13        A.   Did I do what?

14        Q.   Did you get a withdrawal of Serb heavy weapons to storage sites?

15        A.   No.  Like I said there, that was my intention; and, again, you

16     know, when I went to visit, I didn't see any.  That doesn't mean they

17     were not somewhere else, you know.

18        Q.   And staying on that score, if you have a piece of artillery that

19     is mobile, it can be taken from one location to another; right?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   So, just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean they didn't have

22     it in the area?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Let us go back --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, earlier, at least that's how it appears

Page 4368

 1     on the transcript, is that the testimony by Mr. Tchernetsky would have

 2     been:  "It was an anti-aircraft artillery police and an anti-aircraft

 3     gun."  That, I don't know how you pronounced it, but it's not the word

 4     "and," but it was --

 5             MR. KEHOE:  I meant "an," A-N, Judge.  Not two weapons, I meant

 6     one --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That appears from the transcript, just to be

 8     correct, yes.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Let's us go back to 1D28-0151, which is the red line.

11        Q.   Now, General, if we could look at the page.

12             MR. KEHOE:  And I think if we can go to two pages up, please.

13     I'm sorry, just one page back, please.  We're looking at the bottom

14     paragraph.

15        Q.   Again, we're talking about the period of time, General, when you

16     are going down to see the ARSK authorities.

17             We start with the area that says:  "During the whole day,

18     shelling into populated areas had created panic among the RSK leadership

19     and population.  The RSK Supreme Defence Counsel took a decision to

20     evacuate the towns and villages sometime during the 4 August 1995.  The

21     hierarchy asked for a meeting at 1800 in Knin.  And that evening, the

22     4 August, General Mrksic was not there, but I met his Chief of Staff and

23     five RSK ministers.  They appeared totally confused and in a panic."

24             Now let us turn back to your presentation which is P401.  You

25     note, starting in that paragraph, "During the night ..."

Page 4369

 1             It says:  "The whole day -- they included the whole day.

 2     Shelling into populated areas had created panic among the RSK

 3     leadership."  Then you note:  "Given the relatively stable situation, and

 4     with the penetration that could be blocked or at least tried to be

 5     contained, one must ask why the RSK decided to order the civilian

 6     population to flee, unless it was an already foregone conclusion" --

 7     excuse me, "decision."

 8             Now, you described -- you, initially, got to the RSK headquarters

 9     approximately 11.30, didn't you?

10        A.   On the 4th, yes, sir.

11        Q.   And when you got there, you were of the belief that the situation

12     was, in fact, stable; isn't that right?

13        A.   As far as the information I was receiving from my unit, yes, sir.

14        Q.   And "stable," tell us what you mean by "stable"?

15        A.   That there was no inroad specifically, you know, across the whole

16     front.  There was some -- I don't know if that time -- I think the

17     10 company -- I may not have known, because as soon as the 10 company

18     from the Dinara moved, the Kenyan command post lost contact with that

19     company of Kenyans that was in that area.  And coming through the

20     Velebit, I'm not sure if I had that information when I met that ARSK

21     colonel in the morning there.

22        Q.   And by "stable," you mean that the ARSK forces weren't panicking

23     and fleeing; isn't that right?

24        A.   "Stable" meant, you know, that the front was holding.

25        Q.   Now continuing on with this --  by the way, this situation, as

Page 4370

 1     you described the situation on the morning of the 4th, when you go to the

 2     ARSK headquarters and you describe the entire matter as a stable

 3     situation, that was not included in your statement to the Prosecutor;

 4     right?

 5        A.   No, sir, because I had forgotten about that particular meeting,

 6     and I only realised that there had been a meeting when I saw the sitrep.

 7        Q.   Well, sir, in fact -- sir, in fact, prior to the drafting of your

 8     1996 statement, you provided the Office of the Prosecutor with the

 9     presentation that we have in 401; right?

10        A.   I said earlier, I don't remember if it was at that time that they

11     were provided.  They would have to tell you that.  I don't remember.

12        Q.   Let us move, continue on with this, staying with your

13     presentation at, "I understand now ..."

14             And we're on page 23, last paragraph.  "I understand now that the

15     RSK Supreme Defence Council took the decision at about noon on 4 August

16     to abandon the Krajina."

17             Now, the RSK, sir, made that decision at a time when you assessed

18     the military situation to be stable, didn't you?

19             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I've been trying to follow

20     this, and if there is a reference to the previous paragraph --

21             MR. KEHOE:  I'll give you the page; it's page 23.

22             MR. TIEGER:  I do see that but the continual references to the

23     General's assessment of the stability of the situation in his

24     presentation has been linked to the morning meeting and doesn't seem to

25     say that there at all.

Page 4371

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Well, I think we can certainly clarify that.

 2        Q.   General, at the time that you got to the RSK headquarters on the

 3     morning of the 4th of August, did you consider the military situation to

 4     be stable?

 5        A.   Based on the information that I had at that time, yes.

 6        Q.   And you got there at approximately 11.00, 11.30?

 7        A.   That is what is in the situation report, yes, sir.

 8        Q.   You subsequently learned that the RSK made a decision on noon of

 9     the 4th of August to, as you say, abandon the Krajina.

10        A.   That information came from the refugee that came into my camp,

11     and I learned about that a couple of weeks after the 4th.  That was the

12     timing, you know, that they were talking about, but I never verified that

13     particular timing.

14        Q.   Continuing on about the subsequent meeting, you note in your

15     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor -- and I'm talking about the

16     paragraph beginning "during ," and you're talking about the meeting at

17     1800 hours:  "General Mrksic was not there, but I met his COS and five

18     ministers.  They appeared totally confused and in panic."

19             Now, again, we have the word "panic."  And, again, if we turn our

20     attention back to your presentation, while you use the words "totally

21     confused and mostly incoherent," the word "panic" is not used.

22             My question is:  Is the word "panic" a word that you used, sir,

23     or was it a word that Mr. Robertsson included?

24        A.   No, it must have been me, but when -- from my understanding of

25     English, confusion and incoherent, you know, it's panic from my point of

Page 4372

 1     view.  So if I had not used the same word, I mean, if you ask me that

 2     question today and another question tomorrow on the same subject, I may

 3     use different word, but to me it meant about the same.

 4        Q.   Well, let us continue on, on that paragraph, and you continue on

 5     and you say -- you see "Their aim"?

 6             You say:  "Their aim of the meeting was to request that the UN

 7     supply 450 trucks and 70.000 litres of fuel to evacuate 30.000 civilians

 8     from Knin and the surrounding areas that night.  They could not explain

 9     how this evacuation would be done, where these people were to be

10     evacuated to, or what resources were available.  There was simply no

11     plan."

12             MR. KEHOE:  I don't know if you want me to break here.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If this would be a suitable moment for you, we would

14     have a break now.  If you would take one or more two minutes, then --

15             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, it will take a little bit more than that.

16     This is a suitable point.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps otherwise it would become too late.

18     We'll take a break and resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

23        Q.   At the outset, General, my apologies if I'm moving quickly

24     through this.  This is a lot of material, and I know these discrepancies

25     are not your fault.  It's just I have to get through a certain amount of

Page 4373

 1     material in a certain amount of time.  So if it moves quickly, my

 2     apologies, sir.

 3        A.   You're not moving quickly enough for me.

 4        Q.   I think the sentiments that you have in that would be expressed

 5     by Judge Orie in a different form.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  General, I just want to show you before we move into

 8     the next area of the statement a video clip, and it is P398.  This is by

 9     HTV.

10                           [Videotape played]

11             "It is hard to understand why the ARSK did not put up a better

12     battle, especially ..."

13             MR. KEHOE:  Start from the beginning.

14                           [Videotape played]

15             "It is hard to understand why the ARSK did not put up a better

16     battle, especially the ground favours the defender, and we know, you

17     know, that the Croats were able to offend them in the south-eastern part

18     of this sector.  But still there was a lot of other places where they

19     could have made a stand, and it was not made.  Also, one of the things

20     that surprised me from the military point of view is that there was no

21     depth in their defence, no second line or third line.  And this is a bit

22     surprising when we look at it from the military point of view.  Another

23     aspect that was critical, I think, in their -- why it went so fast is

24     that they decide very early, on the 4th in the afternoon, to evacuate the

25     civilians from Knin and all the surrounding town.  And as soon as that

Page 4374

 1     was known, everybody start to flee away, including the military."

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Yes, General, that evacuation order in around noon that we talked

 4     about was critical to the giving up or the defeat of the Krajina, wasn't

 5     it?

 6        A.   It sure was, yes, sir.

 7        Q.   Now, you noted in your statement to the Prosecutor, that there

 8     was no plan.  I note, just as we move through this, those words are not

 9     in your presentation in P401, and I would like to show you a video.  This

10     is 1D15-0065.

11             As this is cueing up, I point to the point that part of your

12     statement where you said that:  "These people didn't know where they were

13     going to be evacuated to or what resources were available.  There was

14     simply no plan."

15             If we could play this, and this is General Kosta Novakovic of the

16     ARSK.

17                           [Videotape played]

18                           [Inaudible audio]

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   Let me -- while cueing this other item up, on the issue of no

21     plan and not knowing where they're going, can I show you D182.

22             MR. KEHOE:  If we can bring up D182 while we're waiting.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Kehoe, you were talking

24     about "the evacuation order in around noon that you talked about."  May I

25     take it that you were referring to what was called "the decision on noon

Page 4375

 1     to abandon the Krajina"?

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not linguistically not exactly the same.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:

 6        Q.   General, this is a memo that went to Sector South headquarters,

 7     and I will tell you for the sake of clarity that the parties have agreed

 8     that the date in this document is incorrect, and it is 4 August 1995.  So

 9     to the extent that it says "8 July," the parties have agreed that it is,

10     in fact, "4 August."

11             In the middle part of this document, it talks about a meeting on

12     1800 to 900 [sic].

13             And the second paragraph it notes that:  "The RSK authorities

14     have requested UN assistance in organising and providing transport for

15     such evacuation.  RSK initial calculation shows that UN will node to

16     provide for these refugees transportation around 70 litres -- excuse me,

17     70.000 litres of fuel, 450 trucks.  RSK proposed one main route:  From

18     Knin to Padjene, Otric, Srb, Martin Brod, Bosanski Petrovac, Banja Luka.

19     Population from Benkovac, Obrovac, Gracac will not pass Knin, but

20     directly through Padjene without directly passing Knin."

21             "The sector commander told RSK that he will request Zagreb

22     authorities, in general, he will recommend this UN support."

23             Do you recall this, General, that there was a plan to follow a

24     particular route as set forth in this document?

25        A.   I don't remember that, sir.  My impression of that meeting was

Page 4376

 1     they had no plan at all, and my recollection was for them to provide me a

 2     plan before I could be in a position to say what type of help to be

 3     provided.  I remember that I mentioned that that help because I had

 4     reduced capability.  I would have been obliged to go back to my

 5     headquarters.  Once I had known their plans, but there was no plan as far

 6     as I was concerned.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Let me show you another video.  This is for Drago

 8     Kovacevic, 1D17-0383, who was a key RSK official at the time.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10                           [Inaudible audio]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This sound is not very pleasant.  We see an English

12     translation, apparently, of the words spoken by the person we see on the

13     screen.  We can proceed in two ways.  Either the parties agree that this

14     is a, and perhaps later can verify, that this is an accurate translation

15     of the words spoken.  Then we could put our volume very, very low, and

16     then rather read.  Otherwise, you have to prepare a better audio for

17     this.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, if I may.  I don't know why this isn't

20     working this way.  It worked fine before.  But the booths have been

21     provided a translation of this -- a transcript, excuse me, of this.  So I

22     will take Your Honour's guidance and the Prosecutor's position.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I'm sure either one of the expedients

25     suggested, it seems to me, can work.  I don't know if the transcript is

Page 4377

 1     of the words spoken by the person on the video himself or is a

 2     transcription of what appears in the subtitles.  If it's the latter, then

 3     we might as well just go forward without the sound and look at what's on

 4     the screen.  If it's the former, that does sound like it's a potentially

 5     more accurate way to proceed, and then we can double-check it as the

 6     Court suggested later.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps both.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have transcripts in the original language and

10     the translation?

11             MR. KEHOE:  If we might check one moment.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Not for this particular video clip, the booths

13     do not have the transcript.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No transcript at all.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  We do have some but not for this particular

16     video clip.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The booth informs me that they have no transcript

18     for this particular video.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, it's in B/C/S.  We have a

20     transcript in English in e-court, but there is no transcript in B/C/S

21     because the people are speaking in B/C/S.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But with this audio quality, no one can verify

23     the words spoken in B/C/S.  So, therefore, under those circumstances,

24     either the parties agree sooner or later on on what is on the original

25     perhaps by using other equipment to verify and then to agree on that.

Page 4378

 1     And if, Mr. Tieger, if you would engage in such an exercise, then we

 2     perhaps could at this moment just look at the video and that you tender

 3     English transcript, and the parties could agree on whether the original

 4     and the English transcript reflects the words spoken in B/C/S.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then what we do at this moment:  We look at the

 7     video, we put our volumes low, and the English transcript will then be

 8     tendered together with the video, and the parties will reach an agreement

 9     on the original words spoken.

10             If that is agreeable, then let's move on this way.

11                           [Videotape played]

12             MR. KEHOE:  General, I think we're finished.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps we first assign a number to the video

14     and then to the English transcript.

15             Mr. Registrar.

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D326.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  As discussed, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That means that verification of the original

21     should still take place.

22             Then D326 is admitted into evidence with the proviso that within

23     seven days, the Prosecution has an opportunity to revisit the issue of

24     the original words spoken.

25             Please proceed.

Page 4379

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   General, I know it's been some time, but did you recognise the

 3     bald gentleman that has a hair line like mine, Mr. Kovacevic, the mayor

 4     of Knin?

 5        A.   No, sir.  I never met him.

 6        Q.   And the second individual, Colonel Kosta Novakovic, with glass,

 7     had you met him?

 8        A.   His face seems familiar, but I'm not sure if I met him or not.

 9        Q.   I know it's been a long time, General.  And the last individual,

10     the older man with the grey hair without the glasses, General Sekulic,

11     did you recognise him?

12        A.   No, sir.

13        Q.   Let me show you another document sir, which is 1D25-0098.

14             General, this is a cable sent by Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan, through

15     Mr. Stoltenberg, dated 4 August 1995, and the area that we have -- are

16     interested in is the second page, paragraph 4.

17             MR. KEHOE:  If we can just blow up paragraph 4.

18        Q.   "We have been advised by the civil affairs office in Sector South

19     that the Knin leadership have requested UNHCR and UNPF assistance in

20     evacuating 32.000 civilians from Benkovac, Obrovac, Gracac, and Knin to

21     Petrovac and Banja Luka in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

22             Now, General, this was on the 4th of August that Mr. Akashi is

23     sending this from Zagreb to New York.  I'm looking if you can help us as

24     to how Mr. Akashi got the details of this plan that Sector South was

25     unaware of or that you were unaware of?

Page 4380

 1        A.   There's no timing on that, is it?

 2        Q.   The only timing we have, sir, is on page 1.

 3        A.   But there's only a date.

 4        Q.   There's an incoming time cable, sir.

 5        A.   At what time?

 6        Q.   If we can go to the front page and if we can circle the right

 7     corner, it notes at 2002.

 8        A.   That makes sense, sir, because I had that meeting at

 9     approximately 1800 hours.  Mr. Al-Alfi was with me, and it reflects what

10     I told you earlier, that since they had no plan, I did not commit myself,

11     and I would say, "Give me your plan."  I would have to go back to my

12     headquarter, you know, with that plan.  The only thing I offered at that

13     time was some fuel for certain people, and it was a limited amount, you

14     know, that would pass beside my headquarter.

15        Q.   Now, General --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  When we are talking about times and when we are

17     talking about apparently internationally-sent documents, then it might be

18     interesting to know what kind of time we are talking about.

19             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge.  The top one, it looks like UNPROFOR

20     at the top stamp of 1947.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. KEHOE:  I do believe, Judge, based on and having dealt with

23     these documents, that it goes out on the current time that you're in.

24     So, as the General noted, that would be consistent with his meeting

25     at 1800.

Page 4381

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The time you're in depends on who you are.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  It's true.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  When you are a receiver, when you are a sender.  So

 4     I take it that you do not put any time you're not in on a document, but,

 5     of course, it depends on where you are, perhaps, and what your role in

 6     the whole thing is.

 7             But let's move on and keep this in the back of our minds.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   I think, just to clarify this, any way we look at this cable,

10     General, it's after your meeting with the RSK authorities?

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12        Q.   Now, if we stay on that paragraph 4, it notes that:  "There is a

13     wide range of political" -- excuse me, "... policy, political, military,

14     and logistical implications that must be first examined with UNHCR before

15     we can contemplate such a commitment.  Accordingly, Sector South has been

16     advised by UNCRO to make no commitment to Knin authorities, other than

17     that the matter will be examined tomorrow."

18             Now, General, with regard to this particular item, making no

19     commitment to the Knin authorities, I mean you made no commitment to

20     evacuate anyone, but you did make a decision, nonetheless, to give them

21     fuel?

22        A.   Only for those civilian that would pass beside my headquarters; I

23     stress "civilian."

24        Q.   Now, also, did you receive a request from Colonel Kosta Novakovic

25     to take civilians into the camp on the night of the 4th?

Page 4382

 1        A.   I don't know.  There is a colonel that came at my gate, if I

 2     remember well, around 2300 hours, and that he wanted to -- for me to take

 3     into my camp the wounded and the sick from the hospital and I told him

 4     no.  But I don't remember if it was Novakovic; it was a colonel that I

 5     had met previously.

 6        Q.   If I may, Colonel Kosta Novakovic told the Office of the

 7     Prosecutor of the Tribunal, in his statement in 2001 at page 10, where he

 8     actually says:  "Our delegation requested the UN to open the gates of the

 9     compound to permit the civilians to enter.  This was agreed to and the

10     gates were opened."

11             Is that accurate?

12        A.   The gates for the refugees from open, yes, sir.  But I think it

13     must have been after I came back from that meeting in Knin.

14        Q.   But was it at the request of the ARSK?

15        A.   I don't remember.  I'm trying to remember if it was at the demand

16     of the -- the request of the ARSK, or if it was Colonel Leslie, you know,

17     that came to me and said, "There's a certain number of people outside the

18     gate and they want to come in.  So what is your decision?"  And after I

19     thought a while after that, a little while, I said, "Okay.  Let them in,

20     and we will accommodate them."

21        Q.   Now, General, along the idea of the plan, and going back to your

22     presentation, you note in your presentation -- and I turn our attention

23     to the top of page 2545 -- excuse me, page 25 of 45.

24             Now, the issue of how people got that information is -- the

25     people got the information that there was an evacuation order is answered

Page 4383

 1     by you at that passage at the top of the page, isn't it?

 2        A.   That's what I got from the people that were in the camp, yes,

 3     sir.

 4        Q.   And you note that:  "From talking to locals who became refugees

 5     in my headquarters, the stories from whose later hear heard from refugees

 6     now in Serbia, we know that the withdrawal order was passed by the civil

 7     defence organisation as part of the heritage of the socialist police

 8     state.  There was an existing and well developed civil defence

 9     organisation.  Everybody," excuse me, "everyone had a block warden, a

10     designated survival area, evacuation routes ..."

11             Now, sir, that portion or that -- that was your understanding as

12     to the communication network that was existing, that was informed of this

13     evacuation order, so they could evacuate pursuant to the decision of the

14     RSK; is that right?

15        A.   Yeah.  That's the information, as I said, that was provided to me

16     by the refugee in my camp.

17        Q.   Now, that particular item about how this information was laid out

18     to the civilian population indicated to you in relatively organised

19     communication network that went back to the socialist era; isn't that

20     right?

21        A.   Yeah, they had some way of communicating, yes, sir.

22        Q.   That communication item - and I don't blame you for this not

23     being in here, General - but it hasn't been included in your witness

24     statement of 1996, has it?

25        A.   I don't think so.  No, sir.

Page 4384

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

 3             JUDGE ORIE: -- could I seek one clarification.  In the

 4     presentation, you say that:  "From talking to the locals who became

 5     refugees in my headquarters and the stories from those who later heard

 6     from refugees ..."

 7             One of your answers was put on the record a minute ago and reads:

 8     "Yeah.  That's the information, as I said, that was provided to me by the

 9     refugee in my camp."  That suggests one person; whereas, your

10     presentation suggests more persons.

11             THE WITNESS:  No, it was more than one, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   Now, General, changing subjects for one moment and just

16     discussing, if we could, the 4th, and if we can move back in our

17     time-frame just a bit.  You had a meeting with the RSK, you told us,

18     before noon and then some place around 1800 or something like that.  Is

19     that right?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   Had there been contacts between UNCRO and the RSK or the ARSK

22     prior to that day -- prior to that time that day?  The first meeting, I'm

23     talking about.

24        A.   Not to my knowledge, sir.

25        Q.   Let me ask -- just go through a couple of items on this, and

Page 4385

 1     again, talking about the statement of Mr. Kosta Novakovic, Colonel Kosta

 2     Novakovic of the ARSK.

 3             In his statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on April 5,

 4     2001, he noted on page 9:  "On 4 August 1995, at 0400, I was awoken by

 5     our liaison officer who said it would be desirable for me to come to our

 6     headquarters because the situation was serious.  The liaison officer then

 7     told me that he had information from a responsible official from UN

 8     Sector South headquarters that the Croatian attack will commence

 9     at 0500."

10             Let me just touch on one other item, and this is from

11     Mr. Sekulic's book.

12             MR. KEHOE:  It should be -- it should be number 20 on our table.

13     It should be 1D28-1009 to 10.

14        Q.   This is from ARSK General Sekulic's book that he wrote.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Just for clarity, 1D28-0109.  The next page, I think.

16     It will be the following page.  No, that's not it.  It should be at

17     1D28-0013 -- 0113, my apologies.  It is from the same book, however.

18        Q.   I'm starting on page 173, General, at "Information that the ..."

19             This is General Sekulic talking about the beginning of Operation

20     Storm.  "Information that the aggression would commence on 04 August at

21     5.00 a.m. had been coming in from various sources.  Early in the

22     afternoon on 03 August, information was also provided by the General

23     Staff of the Yugoslav Army.  It was then confirmed by the General Staff

24     of the army of the Republika Srpska.  The information about the time of

25     the beginning of the operation had come in from various UNPROFOR (UNCRO)

Page 4386

 1     sources as well.  The officers from the international peace forces

 2     appeared to have been competing with one another to provide information

 3     about the time of the beginning of the aggression to organs of the Serb

 4     army of the Krajina.

 5             "After midnight, i.e., early in the morning of 04 August until

 6     5.00 a.m., the operational centre of the army of the Serb Krajina

 7     received several calls from the UNPROFOR officers who were at the

 8     southern barracks in Knin.  They were informing us about the beginning of

 9     the aggression in the RSK.  Similar information had been coming in

10     through state security channels and other organs of the RSK."

11             I have one last item before I begin to ask you questions on these

12     items and that would come from a video 1D15-0065.

13                           [Videotape played]

14                           [Inaudible audio]

15             MR. KEHOE:  It appears we have the is same difficulty, Your

16     Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we then resolve it in a similar way as well

18     or do you need the sound here?

19             MR. KEHOE:  I think we can resolve it in the same fashion, Judge.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it's decided that we'll do that.

21                           [Videotape played]

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   General, this is, again, Colonel Kosta Novakovic and General

24     Sekulic who have said, both in writing and on these videos, that they

25     were being provided information from UN Sector South.  Do you know

Page 4387

 1     anything about that, sir?

 2        A.   No, sir.

 3        Q.   Had anybody informed you that they were, in fact, informing you

 4     them of that?

 5        A.   No, because I would have put a stop to that, that's for sure.

 6        Q.   Now, there was a point in time, General -- and, certainly, before

 7     I move into the next question, certainly, if they had been provided that

 8     information prior to the attack, that would have been a violation of the

 9     UN mandate, would it not?

10        A.   It sure would.

11        Q.   Now, during the course of the day, you note in your 1996

12     statement at paragraph 4, page 5, fourth paragraph, that:  "We had

13     provided them," meaning the RSK.  For the purpose of coordinating a

14     humanitarian assistance, you provided them a radio; is that right?

15        A.   That was at my meeting at 1800 hours, if I recall, on the 4th of

16     August.

17        Q.   So, when we talk about --

18             MR. KEHOE:  If I can turn our attention to P343.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Kehoe, before we do so, I take it that

20     you wanted to tender the --

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- previous?

23             Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a number to the last video

24     and the transcript, the English transcript attached to it.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D327.

Page 4388

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D327 is admitted into evidence under the proviso

 2     that the Prosecution can verify the original language spoken and may come

 3     back with this matter to the Chamber within seven days.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we'd also like to offer the book

 6     excerpt --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah.  I also noted that, as I imagine the Court

 9     did, that these appear to be two different segments from what looks like

10     an ongoing discussion or interview or tape of the same people.  So to the

11     extent we may not have the entirety of the interview, we would be asking

12     for that, and I had a previous discussion with Mr. Misetic about that.  I

13     understand the logistical difficulties of providing it at this moment in

14     light of all the other tasks the Defence have, but I don't think there's

15     any objection to making arrangements for that ultimate purpose.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  I had a somewhat different understanding of our

18     conversation, Your Honour.  So, perhaps, it's better if after the session

19     we have a another conversation.  My understanding is that we were talking

20     about audio from the clip itself and not providing now raw material

21     outside of what's being presented.  But we'll talk about that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be two different things; but at the same

23     time, it seems fair to me that if you make a selection of interviews

24     which were broadcasted, that in order to verify the context in which the

25     used portions are used, that you provide the broadcast in it's entirety,

Page 4389

 1     disclose it to the Prosecution.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  In this specific instance, that shouldn't be a

 3     problem.  It's a movie that's been widely shown in the last year.  There

 4     is an issue with respect to other videos, and I think it's best if

 5     Mr. Tieger and I discuss it in private.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll cross that bridge if it comes to the other

 7     videos.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And would it be possible for the Prosecution to

10     review that, for example, later today?

11             MR. MISETIC:  It depends on the technology.  It's a two-hour

12     movie, so we'll try it burn it on a CD.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is on DVD, then it's my experience --

14             MR. MISETIC:  It's not on a DVD.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not on a DVD.

16             MR. MISETIC:  We have a server, Your Honour, that you have to now

17     copy it for them, distribute it to them, et cetera, and I don't know how

18     long it will take to copy.  It is just as a technical matter --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... if it's electronic and

20     not video, then usually copying two hours should be easy.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   General, you say you gave them the radio at the meeting at 1800?

24        A.   I said that's what I remembered, yes, sir, because there was no

25     longer phone communication which were broken.

Page 4390

 1        Q.   Okay.  So they couldn't call you on the telephone anymore?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   And what about earlier in the day, did you talk to them on the

 4     telephone earlier in the day?

 5        A.   I didn't speak to them on the phone myself, no.

 6        Q.   Well, when you got there at noon time, was there telephone

 7     communication capability?

 8        A.   I don't remember that.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Why don't we turn our attention to P343, page 5, and

10     this is a sitrep for UN Sector South from the 4th of August, 2300.

11             Go to page 5 of this document, and if we can continue up there.

12     I'm sorry.  That's the commander's assessment.  Three more pages up to

13     where it says "warring party movement."

14             Mr. Monkhouse, you see where it says "5" at the top of the page

15     there.  This one says "2."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, if I look at this document in e-court,

17     the top of the first page, it says "page 1 of 11."  Then moving to the

18     second page, the second page is numbered 3 on the top.  The third page is

19     numbered 5 at the top.

20             Could it be that at least the document also only the odd pages

21     have been uploaded.

22             MR. KEHOE:  I think it's distinctly possible.  I think it's a

23     P document, and we'll check with the Prosecution.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I've checked.  They were put in, in

25     the wrong numerical order, so the pages are wrong.  That's the only

Page 4391

 1     reason.  They're in there, however.  All of the pages are in there;

 2     they're just wrong in terms of numerical order.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So that's all rather easy.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  So, Judge, we're on the page that I wanted to talk

 5     about anyway.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that the parties were taught always

 7     to refer to e-court numbers, and then whatever numbering appears on the

 8     documents themselves is then subordinate to that.

 9             Have we found --

10             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what we need?

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   General, this is a document.  It's a sitrep from the 4th at 2300,

14     talking about your meeting at 1130.  And right above the miscellaneous,

15     it notes that:  "It was agreed that headquarter Sector South would remain

16     in contact with the headquarters of the ARSK."  Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes, sir.

18        Q.   Now, why, General, why were you remaining in contact with ARSK

19     headquarters?

20        A.   Because they had requested some medical support and some stuff,

21     and my reply to him according to that is that, "First, you got to stop

22     shooting at you us, and then we'll be in a better mood for discussion."

23        Q.   General, was this being done by radio at this time?  If it wasn't

24     done by radio, how was this being done?

25        A.   If I remember well, I think there is an ARSK officer came to my

Page 4392

 1     headquarter requesting that I go and see that Colonel.  And after that it

 2     would have been the same time -- the same thing.  When they came, that

 3     1800 hour meeting, they came to my headquarter asking me, you know, if I

 4     would attend that particular meeting.

 5        Q.   So when you would remain in contact with the HQ of the ARSK, you

 6     were doing it through people going through shelling, or were you doing it

 7     through some electronic means?

 8        A.   No, they were coming to us; and when they request that meeting, I

 9     went to that meeting, okay?  And the same thing for that meeting at 1800

10     hours, they send somebody requesting that I attend that meeting, then I

11     went.  But they were -- as far as communication, there were also military

12     observers, if I remember well, that had some liaison with ARSK, and I did

13     not control those people.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, if we can just break at this point.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Mr. Forand, we will adjourn for the day.  I'd like to instruct

18     you again that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony

19     whether given already or whether still to be given.

20             And we adjourn and resume tomorrow.

21             Yes, Mr. Forand.

22             THE WITNESS:  Do we have an idea when it will be finished, Your

23     Honour, because I would like to be back in Canada for the 10th of June,

24     because I have a board of administration meeting, and I don't know --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Today is the 5th, and we're all aiming at concluding

Page 4393

 1     your testimony this Friday.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Tomorrow, that would be the 6th of June.  And since

 4     you do not take the boat, I take it, you might be back the 10th of June.

 5     Although, I was informed that you would prefer to be able to leave The

 6     Hague at -- was it 12.00 or 1.00?

 7             THE WITNESS:  My plane, sir, leaves at 1500.  So I think I would

 8     need to leave around 12.30 to be in time to catch it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether we make that, I don't know whether you can

10     make any -- earlier you showed a great flexibility; and in view of the

11     frequency of planes leaving for Canada and the possibilities, perhaps

12     prepare for a change of departure.

13             If I would have been informed about it earlier, I would perhaps

14     have asked the parties, but now they have divided their time and it would

15     take more than one hour from our time and usually we are rather tight.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, all the parties are now aware, if

18     this would result in a firm message, that the parties can agree to

19     accommodate Mr. Forand to leave at 12.30 this Friday.

20             Then, of course, we would immediately inform you, Mr. Forand, and

21     the parties are encouraged to see whether they can accommodate.  But, at

22     this moment, I'm not in a position to instruct them to do that.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn until the 6th of June, 9.00 in the

25     morning Courtroom I.

Page 4394

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th of June, 2008,

 3                           at 9.00 a.m.