Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4395

 1                           Friday, 6 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Mr. Registrar, would you

 6     please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Before we start, Mr. Forand, we have considered your travel

12     arrangements.  Unfortunately, we're not able to accommodate you as far as

13     leaving today is concerned.  I really feel sorry about that.  At the very

14     beginning of your testimony, I asked at a certain moment what your

15     limitations were.  We were then not informed about your plans, so we

16     really feel sorry for you.  At the same time, we have made some

17     arrangements that we might need even today a bit of extra time, rather

18     than to wait until Monday to find additional time today, so in order to

19     make sure that at least your testimony will be concluded.

20             We received a request from the Gotovina Defence for extra time;

21     and I must say after a lot of hesitation, we at least arranged for one

22     session this afternoon.  I'm also aware that this might create some

23     problems as far as the division of time between the Defence teams is

24     concerned.  The Defence teams are invited to try to find an arrangement

25     for that.  If you don't succeed, we'll have to consider whether or not to

Page 4396

 1     use this extra time; and if there is no agreement between the Defence

 2     teams, then also to consider how to resolve it, whether to grant the

 3     extra time or not.  Arrangements are there, but I can imagine that other

 4     Defence teams will have to really fit into the allotted time that they

 5     might ask for a bit of that time as well.

 6             I leave it at this moment to the parties.  If no agreement can be

 7     reached, the Chamber would like to be informed and then we'll decide the

 8     matter.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we do have an agreement with

10     Mr. Kuzmanic [sic], and Mr. Kuzmanic is going to, with the Court's

11     permission, start today, if that's with Your Honour's permission.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It saves time to call him, Mr. Kuzmanic

13     instead of Mr. Kuzmanovic.

14             MR. KEHOE:  It's my Brooklynese, Judge, which isn't translatable

15     in UN parlance.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's proceed.

17             Mr. Tieger, could you give us an indication of how much time

18     you'd need for re-examination.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I think approximately 45 minutes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Forty-five minutes.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as we can foresee now, the Chamber would need

23     no more than ten to 15 minutes; so, therefore, the Defence teams are

24     invited to leave approximately one hour at the end of the

25     cross-examination for Mr. Tieger and for questions from the Bench.  And

Page 4397

 1     if you think that this would cause a lot of further cross, then stop

 2     earlier with your cross.

 3             Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.   

 4             Mr. Forand, I would like to remind you that you are still bound

 5     by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 7                           WITNESS:  ALAIN ROBERT FORAND [Resumed]

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, and I thank my

 9     colleagues for allowing me to proceed today.  I hope to be done by the

10     first break, Your Honour.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

12        Q.   General for, my name is Tom Kuzmanovic, I represent and am one of

13     the attorneys for General Markac in this case.

14             General, you arrived in July of 1995 in Sector South, and you

15     were aware that the UN Security Council had several resolutions regarding

16     your mandate that were handed down in 1994, UN Security Resolution 947

17     and UN Security Resolution 367, which basically spelled out your mandate;

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   And as a matter of fact in P401, if you can pull that up, please,

21     on page 11.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Do we have that up yet?  Thank you.

23        Q.   At the bottom of page P401, which is your presentation of June of

24     1996, you describe what your tasks were at the very bottom of page 11:

25     "To monitor and report on violations in the zone of separation, to

Page 4398

 1     monitor border crossing points, to protect Croats in 13 monitored

 2     villages, and promote confidence building measures."

 3             Now, at the time that you came to your sector, General, the

 4     Croats were the minority in your sector; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   And, in fact, most of these Croats, other than the ones that were

 7     left, had been forcibly removed before your arrival, correct, by the ARSK

 8     and JNA between 1991 and 1995?

 9        A.   This I cannot comment because I was not there, but the only Croat

10     were left were those in those 13 monitored villages.

11        Q.   So, in essence, your job, as you described it, one of your jobs

12     was to protect the Croats within your area of responsibility; correct?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14        Q.   Now --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between answer

16     and question for the interpretation.  Thank you.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Certainly.  My apologies.

18             If we could go to page 9 of this same document, P401, and if we

19     go toward the bottom of that document where the sentence begins, "The

20     presence," and we'll go on into the next page, page 10.

21        Q.   At the time of this presentation, General, you had, when you got

22     on the ground -- strike that.  Confusing.

23             When you got on the ground in July of 1995, you had described

24     your organisational status by stating in -- on page 9 of P401:  "The

25     presence of UNMOs, UNCIVPOL, other UN organisations, and NGOs in the

Page 4399

 1     sector raises a particular problem.  I had no operational control over

 2     any of these organisations and could not give them any order of

 3     direction, even though I had the sole responsibility of their security

 4     and the implementation of the cease-fire agreements.  They reported and

 5     received directions and orders from their HQ in Zagreb.  This situation

 6     created enormous friction, ambiguity, and coordination problems."

 7             Now, General, this was the situation in Sector South before

 8     Operation Storm; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.

10        Q.   And it sounds strikingly similar to what was happening on the

11     Croatian side after Operation Storm, doesn't it?

12        A.   I don't understand your question.

13        Q.   Well, there were various organisations that were entering the

14     area afterwards; correct?

15        A.   Well, it was the same organisations, sir.  And I still had no

16     operational control over them and I no longer had a mandate, as I

17     explained, you know.  It's in the sitrep where our task after Operation

18     Storm was the dismantling of observation posts, recuperation of UN

19     equipment; but at the same time, to raise any aspect, you know, that went

20     against humanitarian rights.

21        Q.   Certainly, I understand that, but I guess the focus of my

22     question was really that the Croatian side of the equation after

23     Operation Storm had similar organisational problems in and of itself;

24     correct?

25        A.   You're talking about the Croatian organisation?

Page 4400

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   Well, based on what I was shown yesterday and the day before,

 3     yes, there seems to have been some problems within those organisations,

 4     yes, sir.

 5        Q.   I'd like to talk to you a bit about what was going on in July in

 6     your sector before Operation Storm, and I'd like to point you to page 18

 7     of P401, in this particular section, starting at where you say

 8     "secondly."

 9             You state that the:  "Shocked by the easy defeat of Sector West,

10     the Knin government reshuffled the Krajina Serb army, and called upon for

11     aid from the Bosnian Serbs and Serbia.  The requested assistance arrived

12     in the form of retired Yugoslav National Army General Mile Mrksic, former

13     commander of the Special Forces Corps.  He also brought with him a cadre

14     of Special Forces personnel, along with 4.000 veteran volunteers from

15     other Yugoslav units."

16             Now, this, General Forand, this reorganisation was occurring

17     within your sector; correct?

18        A.   Yes, sir.

19        Q.   And all of this reorganisation and training and rearming was

20     happening within the ambit of your area of responsibility; correct?

21        A.   I don't know if all of those 4.000 volunteers, you know, were in

22     Sector South or if they were distributed also in Sector North.  What is

23     reported here, I didn't see it myself.  When I was looking for

24     information for my presentation, that's what I was given by my staff.

25        Q.   Okay.  As a matter of fact, in your report, you say that:  "He,"

Page 4401

 1     being Mrksic, "was to oversee the reorganisation and modernization of the

 2     Krajina Serb army."  Correct?

 3        A.   That's what I was told, yes, sir.

 4        Q.   Now --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a minute.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Now, you, when you arrived in Sector South in July of 1995, were

 8     aware of what happened in Srebrenica; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, because I had seen the news in Canada before I arrived.

10        Q.   Okay.  And Srebrenica was a UN safe area as was the city of

11     Bihac; correct?

12        A.   Bihac, I couldn't tell you if it was a UN safe area.  I know

13     there was UN people there, but I'm not sure if it was a safe area.

14        Q.   So, at least at this point, upon your arrival as far as you can

15     recall in Sector South, you were not aware that Bihac was a UN safe area?

16        A.   I knew there was some UN personnel there, but I don't recall if

17     it was called a safe area, no, sir.

18        Q.   Did you understand -- strike that.

19             You further state on page 18 of P401 that:  "His support,"

20     meaning Mrksic's support, "for the operation against the Bihac pocket may

21     indicate he was trying to bolster that sector against what he anticipated

22     would be Zagreb's next move."

23             My question to you was:  He was, meaning Mrksic's forces, were

24     attacking the Bihac safe pocket from your area of responsibility;

25     correct?

Page 4402

 1        A.   No.  What he was doing, based on the information provided by my

 2     staff, was to move some of his military personnel from Sector South to

 3     the Bihac area.

 4        Q.   Well, they went there with -- they didn't go there with rocks and

 5     sticks, they went there with tanks and artillery and guns; correct?

 6        A.   I didn't see that.  You know, again, this is information that was

 7     passed to me by my staff when I was preparing that presentation.

 8        Q.   Okay.  You would agree with me, General, that Bihac is in Bosnia

 9     and Herzegovina, which is a country separate and apart from Croatia;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12        Q.   And as part of your role in UN Sector South, you were to monitor

13     the border, the internationally-recognised border, between Croatia and

14     Bosnia; correct?

15        A.   I had only four border crossing points.  If they passed outside

16     of those border crossing points, there is no way for me to monitor that.

17        Q.   I understand that, but my question was:  One of your

18     responsibilities was to monitor the international border; correct?

19        A.   Only at those four border crossing points.

20        Q.   And would you agree with me, General, that the ARSK troops, under

21     Mrksic's command in combination with the Bosnian Serb army and other JNA

22     forces, were using, in part, your area of responsibility to attack the UN

23     safe area of Bihac?

24        A.   I cannot comment on that.

25        Q.   You don't know or you don't recall?

Page 4403

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Now, one of your responsibilities was to monitor heavy weapons;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   I don't recall that responsibility.

 5        Q.   Well, you have had several sitreps prior to Operation Storm in

 6     which you discuss the issue of Sector South's inability to monitor heavy

 7     weapon sites of the Bosnian Serbs, do you not?

 8        A.   I seem to recall that that was one of the problems where the ARSK

 9     had taken out their heavy weapon out of the sites, but I'm not so sure if

10     it was my responsibility or if it was not the United Nations Military

11     Observer's responsibility to monitor those heavy weapons.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Let's take a look at P337, please.  Page 6,

14     P337.

15        Q.   This is one of your sitreps, General.  If you look at the bottom

16     of the sitrep, the bottom third --

17        A.   Which date was that?

18        Q.   August 1st, 1995.

19        A.   Yeah.

20        Q.   Three days -- four days before Operation Storm.  Restriction of

21     movements, at the bottom, point 6:  "Access is still denied for

22     inspection of all weapons storage sites."

23        A.   I see that, yes.

24        Q.   It wasn't just on August 1st, as reflected in P337, it was

25     reflected in 65 ter 3122, if you could pull that up, please.

Page 4404

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And I would have used an exhibit number for

 2     this; however, I could not find this particular 65 ter number on the list

 3     of exhibits that was provided to us, and I don't know if that was just my

 4     inability to read or an omission.  But the bottom of that particular --

 5     on Annex B, 1361 is the page reference.  0090-1361.  There we go.

 6        Q.   Again --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  That shows up as D164, Your Honour.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.  D164.

10        Q.   Again, August 2nd, 1995, another sitrep from your sector,

11     General, showing, again:  "Access is still denied for inspection of all

12     weapons storage sites."  Correct?

13        A.   Correct.  But I would like to see the mandate of the military

14     observer.  In my mind, I think they were the one responsible for those

15     monitoring of these heavy weapons.  And as I mentioned, I think at the

16     beginning of my points for the Prosecutor, that since we were receiving

17     information from the military observer, some of those information also

18     found itself in my daily sitrep.  So that may have come from them, but I

19     would have to look at the -- what was their mandate.

20        Q.   Understanding that, General, it really -- had you had that

21     mandate or had UNMO had that mandate, it really doesn't make a difference

22     because access was denied; correct?

23        A.   True.

24        Q.   If we can go back to P337 for a moment, and the same page 6.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we can go up, right where it says "Strmica"

Page 4405

 1     there, in the middle of the page.

 2        Q.   There's noted toward the right:  "3 S Galeb fired three rockets

 3     into BH," and this is before Operation Storm; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   And those are Serb aircraft firing rockets into BH; correct?

 6        A.   Must be.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P339, please, page -- I'll

 8     give you the -- it looks like a bates number, 0090-1592.

 9        Q.   This is another Sector South sitrep, dated 3rd of August of 1995,

10     the day before Operation Storm.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And under 2, General Situation, if we could

12     highlight that, please.

13        Q.   It says, "The general situation in Sector South remains tense.

14     Activity at Strmica continued and was punctuated by the two RSK Super

15     Galebs, which overflew Knin at 1710 hours, on their way to drop bombs in

16     the area of Budim."

17             Now, at this particular situation, this is the day before

18     Operation Storm, there's Serb aircraft active, bombing what are

19     presumably Croatian positions; correct?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   If we go to page 5 of that sitrep, General.  Under section D, can

22     you explain to me, it says, "CanBat 1 ..."  -- these are the battalion

23     near Benkovac; correct?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   "... continues planning and preparation for they eventualities of

Page 4406

 1     the refugees in the AOR."  Do you know who notified CanBat 1 that there

 2     might be refugees in the AOR on the day before Operation Storm?

 3        A.   No, sir.

 4        Q.   Are you aware of whether -- I'll strike that.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we go to the next page, please.

 6        Q.   And again at the bottom of that page, in point 6:  "Access is

 7     still denied for inspection of all weapons storage sites."

 8             Now, General, we don't have the sitreps at least in a dossier for

 9     us, and I'm sure they exist before August 1st, but would you agree with

10     me that point number 6 was probably a broken record as far as you were

11     concerned in terms of access for inspection of all weapons storage sites

12     of the RSK?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14        Q.   Now, I'd like to talk to you a little bit more about Bihac,

15     General.  There were probably 70.000 to 80.000 people, if not more, in

16     that pocket?

17        A.   I don't know.  I'm not familiar with Bihac at all, sir.

18        Q.   Well, would you agree with me, General, that had the ARSK and the

19     Bosnian Serb army been successful in taking the UN safe area of Bihac,

20     partially using your area of responsibility as a base of operations, that

21     there existed the real possibility of another Srebrenica had it been

22     overrun?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I'm afraid, given the previous

24     question, I have to object.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, I was listening to the French

Page 4407

 1     translation and --

 2             MR. TIEGER: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to the French translation, and then it comes a

 4     bit late to me.  Could you please repeat.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  The previous question sought some information about

 6     Bihac, the witness indicated lack of familiarity with Bihac at all, and

 7     now there's further questioning about the impact of actions in Bihac.  I

 8     don't think there's much basis for that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, any reason to believe that the

10     witness gained additional information on Bihac in the last five minutes.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Well, sure, Your Honour.  I can go back to P401.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not forget, if we are talking about the

13     presentation, that the basis of knowledge and sometimes the opinions

14     expressed in it, of course, is not the same as what we elicit as evidence

15     from a witness.

16             But please proceed.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   You were critical of Mrksic for diverting resources in your

19     presentation to Bihac; correct?

20        A.   I wouldn't say critical.  To me, you know, it was a -- I could

21     not understand why he was sending troops to Bihac while he was not

22     improving his defensive position.  That's an observation that I was

23     making in my presentation.

24        Q.   Do you think that by taking the area of Bihac, that the Serbs

25     then would have had a contiguous land mass directly from Serbia through

Page 4408

 1     Bosnia all the way to Croatia and would have alleviated any situation

 2     with the loss of Bosansko Grahovo for supply line?

 3        A.   Well, it would have been easier for them, yes, to resupply,

 4     that's for sure.

 5        Q.   You said, in your report at page 20, that you thought that the

 6     results of Operation Storm may have been different in two scenarios:

 7     One, if General Mrksic had foregone the attack on Bihac and instead

 8     continued to use your area of responsibility as a base to set up

 9     defensive operations; or, had the RSK leadership not ordered the

10     withdrawal of the civilian population of Sector South.

11             Those were the two alternatives you presented; correct?

12        A.   Again, it's observation on my part.

13        Q.   And as a matter of fact, there was a withdrawal of the

14     civilian -- ordered withdrawal of the civilian population of Sector

15     South?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17        Q.   And you further explain that that withdrawal was passed down to

18     civilians by the RSK civil defence organisation?

19        A.   That's what I understood from conversation with the displaced

20     people in my camp, yes, sir.

21        Q.   And that RSK civil defence organisation was a remnant of the old

22     Communist system; correct?

23        A.   That's what I was explained, yes, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems to be repetitious.  The witness explained

25     that clearly.

Page 4409

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 3        Q.   Now, General, you had some black-marketeering going on in your

 4     area of responsibility; correct?

 5        A.   That was one of the problems I was facing, yes, sir.

 6        Q.   Captain Hill, in his May 1997 statement, which is P292, discussed

 7     that in some sectors, there was a million litres of fuel a month that had

 8     gone missing.  Were you aware of that?

 9        A.   I was aware that fuel was one of the commodity that was used for

10     black-marketing.  And as soon as I learned about it, I asked that they

11     verify the mileage compared to the amount of gas that was given, and I

12     restricted the amount of gas given to a certain unit to the mileage that

13     they were doing.

14        Q.   Did you discover who was doing the black-marketing?

15        A.   I didn't discover the individual, but I knew that it was a

16     particular unit, yes, sir.

17        Q.   And that was fuel that was being sold to the Serbs?

18        A.   Yes, sir.

19        Q.   Within your area of responsibility?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   I'd like to turn your attention to Operation Storm specifically,

22     General; and, again, referring to P401, page 20.

23             First paragraph, you note --

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'll wait until it comes up.  Thank you.  I'm

25     sorry.  Page 20 of 45, please.

Page 4410

 1        Q.   In that first paragraph, General, you note, in the latter part of

 2     that paragraph:  "Their use," meaning the Croatian's use, "of artillery

 3     was excellent."  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   And there's nothing in that particular section that discusses

 6     anything about indiscriminate shelling of civilian targets, is there?

 7        A.   No, sir.

 8        Q.   You also note that you had to recognise, in the next paragraph,

 9     that:  "The Croatians had tremendous strategic success and that their

10     small special force units did successfully accomplish special missions."

11     And as a matter of fact, you had written to General Gotovina on August

12     26th of 1995 specifically asking about these special force units;

13     correct?

14        A.   I had asked him if he could provide me some information because I

15     was preparing that presentation, yes, sir.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Let's go to P375, please.  Actually, at the

17     bottom, it says "2/3 of P375."

18             We'll use the bottom third, Mr. Registrar.

19        Q.   Here, in the final paragraph, you request assistance in obtaining

20     a historical appreciation of the military actions undertaken by the HV

21     during Operation Storm.

22             And in the last sentence of the paragraph, you state:  "One

23     particular area is the spectacularly successful seizing of the crossing

24     of the Velebits from Obrovac to Mali Alan to Lovinac, the restoration of

25     the road across that terrain," and if you go to the next page "and the

Page 4411

 1     subsequent operations towards Medak and Gracac."

 2             And you even ask, in the next paragraph, that you would be

 3     grateful if your officer who was preparing the briefing could be given a

 4     tour of this battlefield in the company of an English speaking officer,

 5     "who could also explain the plan and execution of what seems to be a bold

 6     and crucial part of the plan of attack for Operation Storm."

 7             Did you ever get that field briefing of the -- of that particular

 8     operation, General?

 9        A.   No, sir.

10        Q.   Now, Gracac is one of the cities that's mentioned in P375.  I'd

11     like you to refer to the protest letter that you sent to General Gotovina

12     on the 4th of August, 1995.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could pull that up, that's P83.

14        Q.   The first sentence of that letter protests the -- what is termed

15     "unprovoked artillery attack on Knin and the towns of Drnis, Medak,

16     Bunic, Benkovac, and Kistanje."

17             Gracac is not listed in that letter, is it?

18        A.   No, sir.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Please, if we could pull up P307 on the screen,

20     and if we could enlarge it just a bit, please.

21        Q.   The centre circle is Gracac, is it not, General Forand?

22        A.   I cannot read on my --

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we go a little closer if we can,

24     Mr. Registrar?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I see that.

Page 4412

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 2        Q.   And as far as you were concerned, from your perspective, that was

 3     a strategically important place, given the fact that it had all of these

 4     intersections of important roads that went through it; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   And, essentially, from the right there, where the city of Otric

 7     is circled all the way across which would be west off the screen to the

 8     city of Gospic, was that particular road that eventually led into Knin;

 9     correct?

10        A.   I don't have the map, but yes, sir.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

12        Q.   Why don't we enlarge the map just for the benefit --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are kindly requested to pause

14     between question and answer for the interpretation.  Thank you.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Again, my apologies.

16        Q.   You can see, General, in the upper left-hand corner, the city of

17     Gospic; correct?

18        A.   I'll take your word for it because it's too small for me.

19        Q.   We can enlarge in, General.  You see it there?

20        A.   Yes, I is see it.

21        Q.   On the left.  Okay.

22             Now, General, Gospic, as far as you knew at the time before

23     Operation Storm, was a city that was essentially in Croatian hands;

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes, sir.

Page 4413

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  At this time, I'd like to play 3D00-0857.  It's

 2     a radio broadcast of August 4th, 1995 from CBC Radio One.

 3        Q.   And I'm going to ask at certain points that the broadcast be

 4     stopped because I am going to ask you some questions, General.

 5                           [Audiotape played]

 6                           [Inaudible audio]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's stop for a moment.  We get kind of an echo

 8     with a delay of up to ten or 15 seconds.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I wanted to prove that I was right.  Could the

11     technicians in any way assist us?

12             The echo seems to have been gone.  Could we try again to play the

13     audio.  Have you provided the booth with a transcript?

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try again.

16                           [Audiotape played]

17                           [Inaudible audio]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  How long is the part you wanted to play,

19     Mr. Kuzmanovic.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I think it's three minutes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think, with this quality of sound, we would

22     survive that for 20 seconds but not for three minutes.  The technicians

23     are trying to find out what the problem is.  Once they have any report on

24     that, perhaps you can move on, then -

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I will move on to a separate section.

Page 4414

 1             Your Honour, I will say that we listened to this, and it was

 2     perfectly fine on our system and I don't understand.  It happened

 3     yesterday as well.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Neither do I.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  All right.

 6        Q.   I'll move on to a different section, General.  I'd like to go

 7     over your statement, P330, page 10.  Do you have your statement in front

 8     of you, General?

 9        A.   Is it the one from 1996 or 1997?

10        Q.   1996.

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12        Q.   If you can turn to page 10, please.  I'll wait until it gets up

13     on the screen.

14             There is a paragraph that starts, "Within weeks," towards the top

15     of your statement.

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17        Q.   And that's, I'm assuming, within weeks of Operation Storm;

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   You state:  "The HV and Special Police units were going over some

21     towns for the second time.  They were burning houses that had already

22     been almost totally destroyed."

23             My question for you, General, is:  First of all, did you ever see

24     this occurring, the HV and Special Police units going over some towns for

25     the second time?

Page 4415

 1        A.   I didn't see it personally myself, no.

 2        Q.   Now, what Special Police units are you referring to?

 3        A.   I would have to refer -- I don't think it was identified

 4     specifically.  It was passed on to me, again, from my staff, and it must

 5     be listed in certain sitreps that was sent to UNCRO.  But I don't

 6     remember specifically.

 7        Q.   So you have no specific personal knowledge of what Special Police

 8     units are referred to here?

 9        A.   No, sir.

10        Q.   I take it, then, that you don't know how the Special Police

11     itself was structured?

12        A.   No, I don't.

13        Q.   And you don't know how the civilian police was structured?

14        A.   No, sir.

15        Q.   You say, "within weeks," but are there any specific dates you can

16     give us as to when this occurred that you referred to in P330?

17        A.   Maybe not for that specific, but I think our sitrep goes until

18     the end of August where we still report that there are some burning

19     taking place.

20        Q.   What I'm most interested in is the identification of who or what

21     these HV and Special Police units were, and what you're telling us is

22     that you can't help us there?

23        A.   No, sir.

24        Q.   Do you have any idea what kind of uniforms these units were

25     wearing?

Page 4416

 1        A.   I could not tell you, no, sir.

 2        Q.   Later in that statement, in the following paragraph, you state,

 3     in the middle of the paragraph:  "Sometimes heavy cordons of Croatian

 4     Special Police would block off an area."

 5             I wanted to ask you some questions about that.  Did you

 6     personally see that?

 7        A.   No, sir.

 8        Q.   So, again, you wouldn't be able to tell us what units they were,

 9     what their uniforms were, whether they were civilian, military, or

10     otherwise; correct?

11        A.   Correct, sir.

12        Q.   Similarly with that, there are no dates and no places that you

13     could identify for us; correct?

14        A.   I would have to refer back to the sitrep.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Now, the rest of my questions, Your Honour,

16     pertain to two radio broadcasts, the first of which we couldn't hear, the

17     second of which is a little bit longer.  And then I will be done with my

18     questioning, so hopefully we can have this resolved.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we hear from the technical booth, first

20     of all, whether the problem has been identified.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have several possibilities.  One of them

23     is to use different equipment to have it played.  That's what we are

24     trying now.  And if that doesn't help us out, there's still the

25     possibility that if there's a transcript, that the transcript will be

Page 4417

 1     read into the record, and that at a later stage, the parties have the

 2     possibility to verify whether the transcript reflects the original.

 3             But let's first see whether --

 4             Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Ms. Henry-Frijlink is trying it, Your Honour, but

 6     she has just logged on.  So it will be just a minute until the computer

 7     activates.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then wait for that possible solution first.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I wouldn't want to -- I know

10     specifically where I want to stop and ask questions; and if it would be

11     all right with Alan if Randy Vlado could sit with Donnica, that way she

12     doesn't not have do what is really our job.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I mean, in this urgent situation, the parties

14     coming closer to each other, but Chamber is still aware what bears what

15     responsibilities.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I could ask a couple of other

17     questions until we get to this, so we don't waste time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you can do that, please proceed.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could call up P400.

20        Q.   General, if we could focus on the third paragraph, please.  Now,

21     in the third paragraph, there's a discussion of how many people left

22     Sector South, and it's listed as 85.000 people.

23             General, I'd like to -- the initial assessment, at least as

24     shortly after Operation Storm was in your entire sector, there were

25     30.000 to 40.000 people prior to Operation Storm, meaning Serb civilians,

Page 4418

 1     and I'd like to know how that number began to grow two months later to

 2     85.000 people from specifically in your sector, and to some point now

 3     we've got estimates by some Serbian politicians where it's 285.000

 4     people.  Can you comment on that?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  A lot of factors, Your Honour, but with respect to

 7     the part of the predicate for the question, that is the initial

 8     assessment, at least as shortly -- I think the witness at least would

 9     need some information about the source of that initial assessment.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please give the source.  "The initial

11     assessment ..."

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It's in the radio transcript, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the source.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It's being given by General Forand himself.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember that, Mr. Forand?

16             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure.  Which figure are we talking about?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We are talking about the initial assessment of

18     30.000 to 40.000 people, Serb civilians, being present prior to Operation

19     Storm, and may I take it in the whole of the Krajina?

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Just in his Sector South, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Just in his Sector South.

22             Did you ever give such an initial assessment of 30.000 to 40.000

23     people, civilians, Serb civilians, in Sector South?

24             THE WITNESS:  If it's in the transcript, obviously I did say

25     that; but there is a report on a is sitrep that at one border crossing

Page 4419

 1     point, there was close to 77.000 or 78.000 people that passed there.  And

 2     the figures that I was using at the end was in Sector South.  There was

 3     close to 80.000 people, and some 78.000 people had left Sector South and

 4     there was about from 15 to 2.000 [sic] people that were left behind.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 6        Q.   Well, General, you were aware that, at least at that particular

 7     checkpoint, those were people leaving from both Sector North and Sector

 8     South, were you not?

 9        A.   No, sir.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Are we ready to try the transcript?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's give it a try.

12                           [Audiotape played]

13             "CBC Radio One, As it Happens"

14             "Hello, I'm Pamela Wallen, sitting in for Michael Enright."

15             "Good evening, I'm Beth Gaines, sitting in for Barbara Budd.

16     This is At It Happens."

17             "Tonight, the Croatian government sends its troops to reclaim

18     disputed territory from the Serbs; but for the UN peacekeepers, it's the

19     same old hazard in a new location."

20             "As It Happens, the Friday Edition:  Radio that shifts gears with

21     its feet."

22             The Croatian government is calling it a police action.  Everyone

23     else is calling it a war.  At 5.00 this morning, government forces

24     attacked the Krajina region in an effort to wrest control of the area

25     from rebel Croatian Serbs.  The Serbs seized the Krajina region with the

Page 4420

 1     help of the Yugoslav army when Croatia declared independence four years

 2     ago.  The town of Knin, which the Serbs have proclaimed as their capital,

 3     has been taking a pounding.  Canadian Brigadier-General Alain Forand is

 4     the UN commander of the area.  We reached him at his headquarters in

 5     Knin."

 6             "General Forand, you and your UN troops, the Canadian troops, are

 7     right in the middle of all of this."

 8             "Yes, unfortunately.  And for the last hour, it has been fairly

 9     quiet, no more explosion in the town of Knin.  But, today, I think there

10     must have been somewhere around 700 to 800 shells throughout the cities;

11     and also on the Canadian side because they are a small contingent here,

12     and one is the Canadian one.  We had three OP which were occupied

13     forcibly by the Croats; but, fortunately, I am told that all the

14     Canadians are safe, and they are presently at Zadar, which is a Croatian

15     city on the Dalmatian coast."

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Let me ask at this point to have it stopped.

17        Q.   General Forand, I would like to go over with you that statement

18     that you gave on the 4th of August regarding the number of shells.

19             You stated that:  "Somewhere around 700 to 800 shells throughout

20     the cities ..."

21             Now, that's the entire amount of shelling for that day throughout

22     the cities, not just Knin, was it not?

23        A.   No, in my mind, it was Knin that I was talking about.

24        Q.   Well, the -- at least what it sounds like to me is that you were

25     referring to more than one city in that discussion?

Page 4421

 1        A.   I could not have said 700 or 800 rounds, because the only place I

 2     was on that day was in Knin.

 3        Q.   But you were receiving reports from others, were you not,

 4     about --

 5        A.   I was receiving reports from the others; but in my mind, you

 6     know, 700 and 800 was in Knin.  So English is not my first language, so

 7     if I said "cities," then I made a mistake.  To me, I was referring to

 8     Knin.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we continue on, please.

10                           [Audiotape played]

11             "There are not any injuries at this point that you know of?"

12             "At this point, there is no injury, but the battle is still

13     raging on in what is called the zone of separation.  There are some gains

14     that the Croats have made in the northern part of my sector and also in

15     the middle of the sector.  And there is a part of my is sector that I

16     don't know have any news since approximately 12.00 today because of bad

17     communication, and I suspect also that some of my people have been seized

18     by the Croats in that particular area."

19             "What are you doing all day long?  What can you do, General?  Are

20     you really confined to your headquarters there?  Is there any activity on

21     the street?"

22             "We have all kinds of problem here with restriction of movement,

23     the shelling that was also occurring, you know, close to our base.  And

24     as a matter of fact, we received a couple of rounds on the base itself,

25     but nobody was hurt.  And I just got back from a meeting where we were

Page 4422

 1     discussing the evacuation of all the civilian population in Sector

 2     South."

 3             "Will you be in charge of that?"

 4             "Well, first, I cannot decide that, you know.  It has to be the

 5     UN that agrees to that particular withdrawal plan, because we're talking

 6     about the evacuation of all the civilian population in my sector, which

 7     is around, you know, from 32.000 to 40.000 people."

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 9        Q.   Now, General, at least as of this date, August 4th, your estimate

10     of the civilian population which was going to be withdrawn, the entire

11     civilian population in your sector, was 32.000 to 40.000 people; correct?

12        A.   Yes, sir.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we continue then, please.

14                           [Audiotape played]

15             "Do you know whether there are civilian casualties; and if there

16     are, what can you do?"

17             "Well, there are some civilian casualties.  We had to evacuate

18     some of them because we have some military ambulance.  And when we were

19     patrolling the towns and when we saw the people had been hit, you know,

20     we put them in the vehicles and we bring them to the civilian hospital.

21     There is, as I mentioned, there is a lot of area that, unfortunately, we

22     were not allowed by the Serbs to go for military reasons, and we know

23     that there have been some wounded and some dead, but it's difficult to

24     assess the number presently."

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

Page 4423

 1        Q.   I wanted to ask you a question about that particular passage.

 2     You said you were not allowed by the Serbs to go for military reasons.

 3     What was that all about?

 4        A.   I don't remember, sir.

 5        Q.   But you did specifically say you were not allowed by the Serbs;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yeah, that's what I heard.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Let's continue, please.

 9                           [Audiotape played]

10             "It's been difficult to tell just what the international

11     community's position is.  Certainly some dire warnings from people like

12     President Clinton this week, asking the Croats not to do this.  But

13     earlier on, I guess a bit of a mixed message.  Where do you think we are

14     now?"

15             "Well, I think, you know, maybe militarily, I would say that the

16     Serbs are really weakened presently.  Even though they have shown extreme

17     restraint, they have not used their artillery to fire on civilian cities,

18     which the Croats did.  The Croats, you know, bombarded all the Knin, the

19     capital here, and all the small cities and towns around the edge of the

20     zone of separation."

21             "Thanks for talking with us tonight.  Good luck."

22             "Thank you, ma'am.  Good night."

23             "Canadian Brigadier-General Alain Forand spoke to us from Knin,

24     Croatia.  He's the United Nations Commander for Sector South."

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Could I please get a number for this?

Page 4424

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D328.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D328 is admitted into evidence, and it's an audio

 6     recording plus transcript.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   General Forand, I wanted to ask you about that last passage where

 9     you say the Serbs have not used their artillery to fire on civilian

10     cities, which the Croats did.

11                           [Audiotape played]

12                           [Inaudible audio]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, the music and the good morning will

14     remain on my mind, but also the remainder of the recording.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Actually, that's probably the start of the

17     second passage, but we're not there, Your Honour.

18             If we could pull up P343, please, page 2.

19             Actually, why don't we leave page 1 for a second, so we can

20     orient the General.

21        Q.   It's a Sector South Knin HQ sitrep dated August 4th of 1995 at

22     2300 hours; correct, General?

23        A.   Yes, sir.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we go to page 2, please.

25             That's page 3.  This might have been the one where they were

Page 4425

 1     input out of order.  So it could be page 5, I'm being told, 5 of the

 2     document but page 2 on mine.  That's it.  We can see on the top, it says,

 3     "page 2," but it's actually page 5 of P343.

 4        Q.   If we could go toward the bottom of this page, General, this is

 5     your sitrep, meaning your HQ sitrep.

 6             And underneath the box - if we could highlight "Both sides" - it

 7     says:  "Both sides are continuing artillery shelling over all Sector

 8     South areas of responsibility."

 9             And the third insert there is that two black aircraft were

10     reported bombing Gospic.  Now, Gospic is a Croatian city; correct?

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12        Q.   And at least by this sitrep, the Serbs weren't necessarily using

13     restraint because both sides were continuing artillery shelling, were

14     they not?

15        A.   According to this sitrep, yes, sir.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we go to the next page, at the bottom of that

17     page.  Actually, that's not it.  We'll forgo that.  If we could go to

18     page 7, which is the top page designation of 343.

19        Q.   If you take a look under "military info assessment," General, the

20     second to last sentence says:  "It is assessed that ARSK forces will

21     fight spirited resistance in small pockets, even if there is a general

22     ARSK surrender or evacuation."

23             That was the military assessment of whom?

24        A.   That must have been Captain Berikoff.

25        Q.   So, at least as of your radio broadcast, the Serbs did use

Page 4426

 1     artillery fire and aircraft fire on Croatian civilian areas; correct?

 2        A.   Well, the aircraft seen, it was reported, I don't know if it was

 3     ever verified; and the artillery shelling, I didn't say it was not said

 4     in the sitrep that the Serb shelling was shelling cities in the Croatian

 5     area.  And I don't know what time I made that interview with CBC, what

 6     time it was, because this sitrep is at 2300.  So more information may

 7     have been coming than I possessed when I spoke to that reporter.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could pull up Exhibit D5, please, and the

 9     point 7.

10        Q.   General, this is an UNMO document from UNMO HQ Sector South,

11     dated 4 August 1995 at 1610, and it describes about Otocac continuously

12     having artillery shelling ongoing.  Otocac was a place that was in

13     Croatian hands; correct?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   If we go to the next page of that document, point 8, we've got

16     UNMO team Gospic reporting that the explosion rate has been reduced to

17     one per minute, meaning that there was artillery fire going on in Gospic;

18     correct?

19        A.   It seems to be the case, yes, sir.

20        Q.   And Gospic is another city that was in Croatian hands at the

21     time; correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Now if we could pull up 65 ter 4695.

24        Q.   This is another UNMO sitrep, dated 5 August, day two of Operation

25     Storm.

Page 4427

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And if we could focus in on the lower third of

 2     that where it begins "ARSK arty," and if we could move that up.  There we

 3     go.

 4        Q.   "ARSK arty attacked several Croatian towns like Gospic, Sibenik,

 5     Vodice, Otocac.  Otocac was also attacked by Serb aviation."  Then later

 6     there, it says:  "ARSK attempted to hit Zagreb with Luna rocket, but the

 7     fire was too short."

 8             So the Serbs were attacking Croatian civilian towns with

 9     artillery, were they not?

10        A.   Well, according to that.

11        Q.   Now, could you tell us what a Luna rocket is, General?

12        A.   I have no idea.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  This 65 ter I believe is an exhibit but I could

14     not find the exhibit number, Your Honour, and I will endeavour to do my

15     best to find one.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If it has no exhibit number, then we'll assign it,

17     if Mr. Tieger --

18             MR. TIEGER:  I'm afraid all our stations are being used at the

19     moment, Your Honour.  So we can't check or verify that one way or

20     another, but we'll try to do so at the earliest opportunity.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I tried to find that in a dossier, the UNMO

22     dossier, but I couldn't find it, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's keep on the safe side.

24             Mr. Registrar, this would be exhibit number?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this would be Exhibit D329.

Page 4428

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection, Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  There's no objection.  I don't know if someone has

 3     discovered a previous exhibit number or not.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I've been told the P104, Your Honour, and I'm

 5     thankful for my colleague to pass that on.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar, the number is now vacated

 7     again, and we'll check whether P104 is the --

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When I say "vacated," of course, it's free again to

10     be used for another exhibit.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Okay, Your Honour.  The last area of questioning

13     I have resolves around the second radio broadcast.  That's 3D00-0840.

14     The original was over 20 minutes long.  I know that that wasn't something

15     that was feasible.  We cut it down to what we believe is a reasonable six

16     to seven minutes, and the transcripts have been provided, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please play the audio.

18                           [Audiotape played]

19             "Hello, good morning, and welcome to Sounds Like Canada for

20     Monday, July the 21st.  I'm Sheila Cole, siting in one last week for

21     Sheila Rogers."

22             "When we think of the war in Yugoslavia, the images that come to

23     mind for most ..." --

24                           [Technical Difficulty]

25                           [Audiotape played]

Page 4429

 1             "July the 21st.  I'm Sheila Cole, sitting in last week for Sheila

 2     Rogers."

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, just for reference, this is

 4     July 21st of 2003.

 5                           [Audiotape played]

 6             "When we think of the war in Yugoslavia, the images that come to

 7     mind for most people are of Serb massacres.  But for many Canadian

 8     soldiers who lived that war, the defining memory is of Croatian

 9     atrocities.  Eight hundred Canadians went as peacekeepers to Croatia in

10     1995.  They ended up as witnesses to an orgy of killing and looting.  Now

11     they want to testify about those crimes at The Hague.  The CBC's Evan

12     Dyer has been talking with some of the soldiers, and he joins us now from

13     our studio in Ottawa.

14             "Good morning, Evan."

15             "Good morning, Sheila."

16             "Well, let's go back to 1995, and set the scene for us.  What was

17     happening in Croatia at the time?"

18             "Well, that vicious civil war between Serbs and Croats was in its

19     last year.  The war in Bosnia, of course, still going very strong, but

20     the Croatian war had been pretty much dormant for about two years.

21     However, the Croats had never given up on the idea of reconquering the

22     Serb-held areas of Croatia where the Canadians were based.  Most of all,

23     they wanted at that take back the Krajina which was a strip of land which

24     for centuries really had been mostly Serbian.  And the Canadian army had

25     been there since about 1992 over three years, trying to defend the people

Page 4430

 1     in the Krajina, both Serbs and Croats.  I talked to Major-General Alain

 2     Forand of the Canadian army.  He was the commander of the UN forces in

 3     the area, and he says the world didn't have a lot of sympathy for the

 4     Serbs that he was protecting."

 5             "We should remember those days, you know, the bad guys was the

 6     Serbs.  CNN was not in Croatia.  There was almost no news, you know,

 7     coming out of Croatia, and whatever was coming out of was they got what

 8     they deserve.  And all of a sudden, you know, they lose the little that

 9     they had, and they are sent to one of those God-forsaken places in Serbia

10     with nothing left, and what's their hope, you know, for life?  It's

11     almost nothing but, Well it's the Serbs, they deserve it.  Everybody

12     forgot about it very quickly."

13             "Now, this plan to expel the Serbs was code named Operation

14     Storm.  It's the operation we are talking about.  Essentially, it was a

15     shock and awe type of blitzkrieg operation, very aptly named because it

16     began with this just ferocious, by all accounts, artillery bombardment,

17     which far exceeded what anyone thought the Croats were capable of.  And

18     that barrage rolled right over the UN line of separation and the bunkers

19     of the Canadian forces."

20             "Now, the Canadians are talking about war crimes.  What was it

21     they saw?"

22             "Well, the first war crime actually is the shelling itself.  And

23     I spoke about this with Major-General Andrew Leslie.  Now he's off to

24     next week to Afghanistan.  Actually, he's going to be the commander of

25     the Canadian forces there.  But back then, in 1995, he was the colonel in

Page 4431

 1     the Krajina capital of Knin."

 2             "I'm a gunner, I'm an artillery officer, a professional, so I can

 3     comment on it with some degree of validity.  This was deliberate

 4     targeting on a massive scale of residential areas.  Why?  Because I

 5     believe it was targeted to break their will to resist.  And by the way,

 6     it worked.  It killed a lot of civilians, and we'll never know the exact

 7     number.  But estimates, estimates range from 10 to 25.000 dead."

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Now, the transcript says "dead after 10 to

 9     25.000."

10                           [Audiotape played]

11              "It worked.  It killed a lot of civilians, and we'll never know

12     the exact number.  But estimates, estimates range to 10 to 25.000 dead."

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

14        Q.   Now I just want to let that soak in again for a minute there,

15     General.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a minute.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Now, General Forand, for someone in the year 2003, eight years

19     after Operation Storm, to make this kind of a statement on a national

20     radio broadcast, that 10 to 25.000 civilians were killed as a result of

21     the shelling of Knin, is not just I remember responsible, it's a complete

22     fabrication, is it not?

23        A.   Why are you asking me?  I'm not General Leslie.  I didn't make

24     that statement.

25        Q.   You were his commander, weren't you?

Page 4432

 1        A.   In Knin.

 2        Q.   Yeah.  And you and he were there at the same time, were you not?

 3        A.   But I was not at the same time with him when he made that

 4     declaration on that radio.

 5        Q.   I'm asking you there were not 10 to 25.000 civilians killed as a

 6     result of the shelling in Knin, General; correct?

 7        A.   Not to my knowledge, no, and I never used that figure, either.

 8        Q.   General Leslie did though; correct?

 9        A.   It would seem according to that transcript, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, it's clear what the testimony is.

11     Please proceed.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

13        Q.   If Milan Martic would have said that, you would have called him a

14     liar, would you not?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

17                           [Audiotape played]

18             "25.000, and this absolutely indiscriminate.  We're talking from

19     small children to old people here?"

20             "The shelling was aimed basically at houses, and it moved across

21     the town from one end to the other, a hospital also, everything in the

22     town.  But not just in Knin, every town in the Krajina."

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

24        Q.   General, the hospital was not a target of the shelling; correct?

25        A.   I was told that there was a hit on the hospital.  I never

Page 4433

 1     verified it myself, but that's what I was told.  But I don't think it was

 2     a target.

 3        Q.   General, you would agree with me that the shelling in Knin was

 4     not aimed at houses, was it?

 5        A.   Well, from my point of view, as I explained the other day, it

 6     seems that it was -- that the shell were landing all over Knin.  So I

 7     don't know how you would qualify that.

 8        Q.   You would agree with me that houses were not being aimed at in

 9     Knin or any other town in Krajina specifically; correct?

10        A.   From my point of view, again, when I was on that balcony, what I

11     was looking at, it was falling all over the place where there were some

12     civilian house.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we move on to the next passage,

14     please.

15                           [Audiotape played]

16              "And the Croats, in fact, had total control of Krajina within

17     about four days.  But as the General says, the killing didn't end there;

18     and, in fact, it was really just getting started.  And General Leslie

19     says he saw Croatian police afterwards going house to house and killing

20     anyone they found."

21             "There were a variety of organisations that then swept into the

22     former Serbian Krajina.  There were Special Police teams, wearing their

23     very distinctive blue uniforms, who were engaged in hunting and killing

24     in the mountains of Serbian civilians.  And I saw dozens and dozens of

25     farm houses and even villages burning, many, many days, in some cases

Page 4434

 1     months, after the initial assault had taken place."

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 3        Q.   Now, General Forand, General Leslie left Knin for good on August

 4     7th, did he not?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Let's move on to the next portion, please.

 7                           [Audiotape played]

 8             "So did you succeed in getting some documentation; and, of

 9     course, there's what they saw, their accounts.  What happens or what is

10     happening with their depositions to The Hague?"

11             "Not very much actually.  There's not really enough happening.

12     There has been one indictment, but there's been absolutely no arrests,

13     and the Canadians are quite frustrated about it.  Here is

14     General Forand."

15             "Well, that's the sad part in a sense, you know, that I made a

16     deposition, you know, on what I had seen, that people were dead, and the

17     looting and all the things.  So I made the deposition.  Lo and behold,

18     seven, eight months after that, another group came from the Tribunal

19     because they told me that they had lost my deposition.  So I made another

20     one.  And would you believe that they came back a third time, another

21     group, because somebody within the organisation again had lost everything

22     I had made.  So I made a third one, and I said, "Well, this time, you

23     better keep it because otherwise don't come and see me again."  But I

24     never heard from these people.  I'm still waiting for the news.  I don't

25     know."

Page 4435

 1             "And he must be dealing with an incredible level of frustration

 2     as well."

 3             "After eight years, yes."

 4             "Yeah.  So what are we talking about?  Who are these alleged war

 5     criminals?"

 6             "Well, two of them are dead.  President Franjo Tudjman is one of

 7     them.  He died in his bed.  So did the other general named in the

 8     indictment.  But one remains alive and in hiding, General Ante Gotovina.

 9     I should tell you about this guy.  He's got quite a history.

10     General Ante Gotovina is a former Foreign Legionnaire, French Foreign

11     Legionnaire; Commander of Operation Storm; one of the only Croatians in

12     the Croatian army ever to be indicted.  But the Croatian government has

13     been very reluctant to hand him over; and, actually, he just went out and

14     hired him a lawyer, in fact.  And the fact that General Gotovina remains

15     unpunished continues to annoy Canadian officers like General Leslie."

16             "Well, I can't see how anybody could survive for so long in a

17     relatively small chunk of grounds, which is what Croatia is - I mean, we

18     have lakes that are bigger than Croatia, for goodness sake - without

19     assistance from the local population.  There's a good many Croats who

20     believe he's a national hero."

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, why don't we just proceed.

22                           [Audiotape played]

23             "Why hasn't the West been more aggressive in his pursuit?"

24             "That's a good question, because of course the West put crushing

25     sanctions on Serbia to force it to turnover its war criminals.  And now

Page 4436

 1     it's aggressively pursuing them, and, you know, it sent one over in just

 2     recent weeks.  But Croatia, on the other hand, is on the short list to

 3     join the European Union, to join NATO.  Now it's going to Iraq.  It's

 4     very close to the United States.  I think, you know, the answer is that

 5     the world is not putting pressure on Croatia partly because the West in

 6     1995 was on the Croatian side.  And, you know, everybody at this point

 7     has identified the Serbs as the problem, and, you know, they had

 8     committed terrible atrocities just before Storm in Bosnia.  Srebrenica

 9     was just a few weeks before.  And once you identify the Serbs as the

10     problem, it was a short step for some countries, like the US and Germany

11     in particular, to identify the Croats as the solution.  One of the

12     ironies of Yugoslavia is that peace when it finally became possible, and

13     it was possible partly because the ethnic cleansing had been so

14     successful.  And the Croats weren't going to make peace as long as the

15     Serbs remained in control of the Krajina."

16             "So you are talking about with actual assistance from the West?

17             "Well, it's, you know, the West was definitely aiding the

18     Croatians, in the sense that they were getting vehicles from Germany,

19     artillery from Argentina, training from the United States.  And every

20     officer I spoke to believes that the Croatian army received foreign

21     assistance, mostly directly in Operation Storm, because they believe

22     Operation Storm was too good, too professional, really, for an army run

23     by a bunch of former Croatian policemen.  Here is General Leslie."

24             "The coordination of the fires, the psychological preparation of

25     the battlefields had to have been done by people who really knew what

Page 4437

 1     they were doing.  I can't see what where they would have pulled off the

 2     expertise to get it done."

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 4        Q.   General Forand, I wanted to ask you a question about that --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.  Sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, one second for taking a breath for the

 8     interpreters and transcribers, and then we can slowly proceed.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'll count to five, Judge.

10        Q.   General, I wanted to ask you a question about that last passage

11     and comment of General Leslie's, and you also were of the opinion, to

12     some extent, that you didn't understand where the Croatian military would

13     have pulled off the expertise to get this done; correct?

14        A.   I didn't quite put it like that, but yes, that was in the back of

15     my mind.

16        Q.   Now, I guess, is it me or does it seem like you want to have it

17     both ways?  In one sense, they had too much expertise to pull -- they did

18     not have enough expertise to pull this off and do it so well; and on the

19     other hand, they are a bunch of unprofessional former policemen.  Which

20     one is it?

21        A.   I don't understand your question.  What are you asking me?

22        Q.   I'm asking you:  Was this a professional military operation

23     undertaken by the Croatian military, or was this just some rag tag

24     operation where they got lucky?

25        A.   I think, if you read my presentation, I do both, you know.  I

Page 4438

 1     say, strategically, it was very well planned.  There was some parts which

 2     were very well done; but in other parts, there seemed to be a lacking of

 3     a cooperation between the combat arms.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we move on with the tape, please.

 5                           [Audiotape played]

 6             "So who are these people who really knew what they were doing?"

 7             "Well, there is a company in Alexandria, Virginia called Military

 8     Professional Resources Inc., MPRI.  And it's always been very open about

 9     the fact that it was training the Croatian army before Storm;

10     significantly, before Storm.  It's currently arming the Croatian arm now

11     for NATO, in fact.  MPRI is a company that's a very, very close to the

12     Pentagon.  And the president of the MPRI, Carl Vuono, is non-other than

13     the former Chief of Staff to the United States Army.  General Vuono was

14     in Croatia with the Croatian General Staff in the days immediately prior

15     to Storm, just a couple of days before.  And we know that MPRI at that

16     point was training the Croatian army.  I think the question a lot of

17     people in the Canadian army are curious about, and I have to say that no

18     one here I spoke to claims to know the definitive answer to this, is how

19     directly did MPRI and the US help with Operation Storm.  For example, you

20     know, did they provide intelligence?  Did they go so far as to help the

21     draft the actual plan of attack?  You know, the Americans had satellite

22     and aerial images of the battlefield.  Did the Croatian army use those to

23     target the refugee columns, for example.  I know there's a lot of

24     Canadian officers who think the that answers to some of those questions

25     at least is, yes."

Page 4439

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   General, after listening to that last passage, are you one of

 4     those Canadian officers who thinks the answers to some of those questions

 5     is yes?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.

 7        Q.   You are?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

10             I would like to move this particular transcript into evidence,

11     along with the audio.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.  Just in keeping with the

14     point made yesterday, if I understood Mr. Kuzmanovic correctly, these

15     were -- sounded like the entire broadcast, but I thought I understood him

16     earlier to say that it was an excerpted portion.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  We did excerpt it.  I'll get you the whole

18     thing.  No problem.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit D329.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D329 is admitted into evidence.  That's an audio

22     with transcript.

23             Mr. Kuzmanovic, just one question.  This was not put to

24     Mr. Leslie when he testified, was it?

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I wish I had it then, Your Honour.

Page 4440

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I wish I had it then.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  I refrain from commenting on it, which is

 4     appropriate, I think.  I was just verifying whether my recollection was

 5     right or wrong.

 6             Then, just for us to know, this concludes your cross-examination,

 7     which means that now who is next?  Mr. Kehoe, you will be the next one

 8     after the break?

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And how much time are you planning to use?

11             MR. KEHOE:  I will -- I understand that I will endeavour to -- I

12     will finish with an hour left, 45 minutes for the Prosecution and I guess

13     the 15 minutes the Court has, but I do have a significant amount of

14     information to go through.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's always the answer.  It's like -- no,

16     well, let's not.  Could you tell us how much time you need?

17             MR. KEHOE:  Let me chat just one moment.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, General, by the way.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

21             MR. KEHOE:  I would say two and a half hours, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any agreement with the Cermak Defence,

23     because they were limited in their time; and as I said before, if

24     additional time is available, then, of course, we have to consider

25     whether it would be fair to grant extra time to those counsel who have

Page 4441

 1     stayed well within the limits the Chamber has set.

 2             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Your Honour, what I've done is concluded matters

 3     on Your Honour's suggestion with those bundles of documents, which I

 4     would have been putting in the way that Your Honour and the Court had a

 5     flavour of, and that that was the purpose of that.  Those are being

 6     prepared and will be available for distribution at some point this

 7     morning.  They are being printed and scheduled, and trying to make as

 8     much as possible that the right 65 ter number --  well they're all right

 9     65 ter numbers, but the operative 65 ter number is there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand your answer well that you're not

11     claiming at this time any of the extra time.

12             MR. KAY:  Not claiming, Your Honour, because I've done my piece

13     on the matter.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you can use two and a half hours.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Not two hours and 31 minutes.

19             MR. KEHOE:  I understand.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a break and we'll resume at 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 4442

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Forand, you know Mr. Kehoe already, isn't it?

 3             THE WITNESS:  I've had that pleasure, yes, sir.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]

 5        Q.   Good morning, General.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   General, I'd like to go book to this meeting that you had at

 8     approximately 11.30 on the 4th of August, 1995, at the RSK headquarters.

 9             And if I may, a Mr. Strbac told the Office of the Prosecutor

10     that:  "General Forand, and only he, had such vehicles available,"

11     talking about the vehicles, the APCs.

12             And then he noted that:  "The video team from Yugoslavia happened

13     to be in Knin when the attacks began.  They went out to document the

14     shelling.  They were assisted by Mr. Forand's men who provided them an

15     armoured vehicle with drivers."

16             Now, Mr. Strbac is an RSK official.

17             General, did you, in fact, provide the RSK with an APC?

18        A.   That's a surprise to he me.  I never gave permission or direction

19     that way.  So this is a complete surprise for me.

20        Q.   Do you know if some of the UN personnel were driving around with

21     this --

22        A.   I would be very surprised because I had given strict orders that

23     we would use those APC only to go and get the people that were supposed

24     to be recalled to my camp.  And I know that I had a problem with one of

25     my Jordanian officers who went back to his apartment to get some -- his

Page 4443

 1     personal stuff, and I saw that and I was not very pleased.  So I made

 2     sure that the only reason they were getting -- going out was to go and

 3     try to get those people that are -- had not made it back into the camp.

 4        Q.   "Those" being the UN employees?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   So any other use was unauthorised?

 7        A.   The only other use is that if they were finding some wounded

 8     people, they were bringing them to the hospital.

 9        Q.   Now, General, with regard to --

10             MR. KEHOE:  I'm just slowing down for the sake of the

11     translators.

12        Q.   So when Colonel Kosta Novakovic told the OTP that he proceeded to

13     the Knin hospital - and this is the morning of the 4th - proceeded to the

14     Knin hospital in a UN APC, you don't know anything about that?

15        A.   No, sir.

16        Q.   Sir, as for the actual dealing with RSK soldiers, when refugees

17     or people came to your gate on the evening of the 4th, the UN Sector

18     South did allow ARSK soldiers into the compound, didn't they?

19        A.   Not that I'm aware of.  What we did is that when I decided to let

20     them in, those that were at the gate, we did conduct a search, and there

21     was some weapons, you know, that were found.  But I don't know who was an

22     ARSK soldier or not.  To me, you know, they were displaced people.

23        Q.   What weapons did you find?

24        A.   I don't remember.  I would have to be reminded, you know, of what

25     we collected.

Page 4444

 1        Q.   Well, you remember Major Bellerose, do you not, Claude Bellerose?

 2        A.   Yeah, he was my engineer officer.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  If I may bring up a interview he gave via Sanction.

 4     That's it.  And if we can go to the next page and on the right-hand side

 5     where it says:  "Yes.  There were some civilians and some military."  Can

 6     we raise that a bit?

 7        Q.   It says:  "Yes.  There were some military," he says," because we

 8     opened up the camp to displaced people to provide security.  There were

 9     few Serb soldiers that came to try to get refuge within our camp.  So we

10     said to them, 'If you want to come in you, have to disarm because if we

11     let you in with weapons, we were's putting ourselves at risk.'"

12             Now, that is one of our officers talking about allowing ARSK

13     soldiers into the compound.  Were you aware of that, sir?

14        A.   I was aware that some were found with weapons, you know, when we

15     searched them; but I don't recall, you know, if it was specifically

16     mentioned there were ARSK soldiers.

17        Q.   Well, you talked to us about, on the 5th, evacuating individuals

18     from the hospital?

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   Let me show you a clip from the UN Sector South, 1D28-0035.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, as far as the previous document is

22     concerned, we want --

23             MR. KEHOE:  I'm not going to offer it at this time, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25                           [Videotape played]

Page 4445

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, this is a -- I don't believe -- is the

 2     sound okay on this.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that some improvement has been made

 4     as far as sound is concerned, and that a provisional solution is there.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, with regard to this tape, I don't

 6     believe there is any sound on it, or that we're not going to require the

 7     sound.

 8             If I may play this.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   General, that particular video was taken at your compound, and

12     was that an RSK soldier that you evacuated from the hospital?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   Well --

15        A.   I was not there, you know, for every people that was coming into

16     that camp.  I gave the direction, "Let them in, search them, and then

17     segregate them."  And when I told Colonel Leslie, "We'll also evacuate

18     the wounded from the hospital," I was not there, you know, to verify each

19     one that was coming in.  I was not there at all.  I was in my OPs room.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  Just a for foundational

22     purposes, if it's either the case -- excuse me, that the witness

23     recognises the location of the video, or if we can have a representation

24     about the -- how it is that we know where the video was taken from.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 4446

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, this was produced by the Prosecution as

 2     part of a longer segment of any number of items that had been filmed, and

 3     produced to us in UN Sector South headquarters.  We just extracted this

 4     one piece.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But, nevertheless, that doesn't invalidate what

 6     Mr. Tieger thinks, at least I understand his words, what the Chamber

 7     needs.  I mean, you bring us someone in a bed, and you say, Is this an

 8     ARSK soldier brought into the hospital.  The witness says:  "I don't

 9     know."  Either we leave it to that; or if you want to give it any

10     follow-up, then, of course, we have to establish what the location is.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Absolutely, Judge.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  From the quick view, I didn't see him being in

13     uniform or armed.

14             MR. KEHOE:  He was not.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So you need a bit more to give it a useful

16     follow-up.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

18        Q.   General, did you recognise that area as the hospital area in UN

19     Sector South?

20        A.   I think that was the gym which we transformed, I wouldn't call it

21     a hospital, but a place where we could put the sick and the wounded.

22        Q.   Approximately when were you bringing the sick and the wounded

23     into the gym that you had reconfigured as a hospital?

24        A.   Well, it was the 5th, sir.

25        Q.   Now, going back to that, sir, you took sick and wounded from this

Page 4447

 1     particular location, from the hospital, and if I may show you D277.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, the video played, do we have to need

 3     that --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  No, Your Honour.  I just offer that into evidence at

 5     this point.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  If we could please have a number, yes, we are

 8     offering that into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It was a bit unclear to me whether --

10             MR. KEHOE:  1D28-0035.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, any objection.

12             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D330, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D330 is admitted into evidence.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. KEHOE:

18        Q.   Now, sir, you were aware that in August and July of 1995, the RSK

19     was under full mobilisation for all males to go into the ARSK; is that

20     not correct?

21        A.   Yes, sir.

22        Q.   Is it your belief, as looking at this taking a video, whether or

23     not that video was or was not a soldier?

24        A.   If he was a soldier?

25        Q.   Was he a soldier?

Page 4448

 1        A.   I don't know if he was a soldier.  He was of age, for sure.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Now, if we look at D277, if we go to the second page.

 3        Q.   Starting with the paragraph -- in the second paragraph:  "The

 4     Knin hospital remains structurally sound with no evidence of artillery or

 5     mortar damage ..."

 6             That's consistent with what you said this morning; correct,

 7     General?

 8        A.   What I said this morning is that I was told that there was

 9     potentially a round that had hit the hospital, but there was no -- it was

10     not a target, per se.

11        Q.   Well, when you got there, you didn't see any damage to the

12     hospital, did you?

13        A.   No, because I didn't go around the hospital.  I went directly in.

14        Q.   Now, if we go a couple of sentences down:  "When the Croatian

15     medical personnel arrived on 6 August, they found 20 elderly patients in

16     the basement of the hospital."

17             Is that accurate, General, you left the elderly patients in the

18     hospital?

19        A.   I left those that, when I spoke to the doctor that they were -

20     don't know what's the word - hat they needed treatment constantly on

21     life - whatever it's called - because I when I spoke to him, the chance

22     of them making it alive to my camp, because of the transport, was not

23     very high.  So I decided that they would not bring them to my camp

24     because, first, they could die en route, or I did not have the

25     capability, you know, for self-sustainment in my camp.  So I left those

Page 4449

 1     people - I don't know how many there were - but I left them there.

 2        Q.   So, General, then why did you move the wounded?

 3        A.   Because we were able to take care of them.  And at that time,

 4     remember, in my presentation, I was told that, you know, the hospital had

 5     been hit, and I was afraid that they could be others.  So I decided that

 6     based on that information, which I did not verify, to move the wounded

 7     and the sick to my headquarters.

 8        Q.   So the people that were very sick, you didn't move; but people

 9     that could move, you did move?

10        A.   Well, again, if I could find the right word.

11             [Interpretation] Those who could not be displaced, those who

12     could not be moved.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness also said:

14     "Those in palliative care could not be moved."

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   And did the group that you moved, General, include men of

17     military age?

18        A.   [In English] Like I said, we moved all of those --

19                           [French on English Channel]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have a bit of a problem because if you

21     change the French, which is then translated, but I think we missed when

22     you were talking about "soins palliatifs".  That's a portion which is, if

23     I read well, is missing after "those who could not be moved."

24             I now change to French for a second.

25             [Interpretation] There is no problem if you want to speak French;

Page 4450

 1     however, you should tell us about it first, so that we are informed about

 2     it.

 3             [In English] And if you want to hear the French, for example, if

 4     I speak French, then if you move from channel 4 to channel 5, you will

 5     receive the French original or French translation.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   General, my answer on -- question on line 9 was:  Did the group

10     that you moved include men of military age?"

11        A.   Well, as you saw on the video, there was some, but I was not

12     there at the reception.  And when I went myself to the hospital, because

13     the only people that were left to be moved were those people that I felt,

14     you know, might die on me, so I didn't bring any back with me.

15        Q.   General, was it a violation of the UN mandate to move soldiers

16     from any of the warring factions?

17        A.   If they were recognised as soldiers, yeah, I suppose; but if they

18     are wounded or sick, to me, you know, it's humanitarian help that we were

19     providing.

20        Q.   So, according to your rationale, moving wounded soldiers is

21     within your mandate?

22        A.   I didn't say it was within my mandate.  I said it was

23     humanitarian.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, instead of putting your next question,

Page 4451

 1     it's also good to listen to the answers, because whether they were

 2     soldiers or not is your conclusion and not what the witness said.  He

 3     said they were of military age and, therefore, they could have been

 4     soldiers.

 5             Let's try to keep things straight.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   General, let me talk to you a little bit about the morning of

10     the 4th, and you noted for us in your transcript that you - and this is

11     on page 4115, on line 1 and 2 - that you "... stayed about ten minutes at

12     the most, you know, looking at the artillery barrage that was taking

13     place."

14             Now, let me turn your attention to D270.  Looking at D270,

15     General, it's a letter from General Mrksic at 0330 hours -- 0630 hours on

16     the 4th, to General Janvier in Zagreb.  Essentially, it's protesting the

17     shelling.  In the third paragraph down, it notes:  "We demand that you

18     take immediate measures to stop the aggression."

19             Were you made aware of this, General?

20        A.   No.  You shown it to me, I think, yesterday or the day before.

21     That was the first time I had seen it.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Let us turn attention to 1D28-0021.

23             Your Honour, there is a French version of this as well.

24        Q.   General, in this, this is a message from General Mrksic to

25     General Janvier, if you can just take a quick look at it, talking about

Page 4452

 1     the shelling.  On the sixth line down, it says that:  "They," talking

 2     about the HV, "also targeted the hospital and other similar buildings,

 3     firing randomly and without any order.  UNPROFOR officers located there

 4     can confirm these claims."

 5             Now, General, when you went in the morning of the 4th to ARSK or

 6     RSK headquarters, did you know about these protests.

 7        A.   No, sir.

 8        Q.   Now, you did know, sir, that approximately 6.30 in the morning

 9     that there had been some incoming mortar fire into the camp?

10        A.   In my camp?

11        Q.   Into your camp.

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   No?

14        A.   We never -- there was no bomb of whatever kind that fell in my

15     camp, you know, throughout the whole period.

16        Q.   I'm reminded, sir, on the radio broadcast, that they were talking

17     about on the 4th, you mentioned that there was some incoming fire on the

18     camp on the 4th.

19        A.   No.  I think I said near the camp.

20        Q.   Well, that particular fire near the camp, that was relatively

21     close to your camp on the morning of the 4th?

22        A.   I don't think -- did I specify the morning of the 4th?

23        Q.   I'm asking you, sir.

24        A.   There was only one shell that landed five to ten metres from the

25     north-west corner of my camp, and there was six or seven civilians that

Page 4453

 1     were killed.

 2        Q.   That's on the 5th, sir.

 3        A.   That's on the 5th.  On the 4th, there was no -- I think I make it

 4     very clear in my presentation that the closest it had come was 350 to 400

 5     metres.

 6        Q.   I just note for the record, General, that the radio interview of

 7     this morning where you mention this was the morning of the 4th.  But you

 8     have no recollection of that?

 9        A.   No, and I don't recall that it was on that tape.

10        Q.   Well, you went to this meeting on the -- at the ARSK

11     headquarters, you said, at 11.30.

12             MR. KEHOE:  If we can turn to Exhibit 341 -- that's P341, excuse

13     me.

14             Before we move on, Your Honour, we'll offer up 1D28-0021 into

15     evidence, which is the --

16             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I anticipated that it would be coming.

17     Briefly, all I have on this at the moment is a typed-out English document

18     without any headings or indication of provenance, so I need information

19     before I can respond to the tender.

20             MR. KEHOE:  This is --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, it's uploaded in e-court, and I see an -

22     let me just look -- I see an original in e-court.

23             MR. KEHOE:  I will clarify this with the Prosecution.  It was the

24     part of a bundle of documents that was provided, that came from

25     Mr. Akashi that had been sent to the UN.  And it was in that bundle that

Page 4454

 1     was provided, and I can clarify the source with counsel.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if it was in the bundle, was that bundle

 4     already admitted into evidence?

 5             MR. KEHOE:  No, Your Honour.  I must say that the original was in

 6     French, and we will see -- and the numbers is R09095.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see.  We're still talking about the letter

 8     sent to General Bertrand Janvier.  Is that complained by Republika

 9     Srpska, or are am I behind?

10             MR. KEHOE:  No, Your Honour.  This is the message from General

11     Mrksic to General Janvier that was transmitted by Colonel Kosta Novakovic

12     by telephone.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you say the original was --

14             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if I understand it correctly, there are

15     two separate documents.  One, I think, is represented by what I -- I

16     don't have the uploaded version in front of me, but I think that is the

17     message from the protest letter from Mrksic to Janvier.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  4th of August, 0630 hours, protest against the

19     shelling of civilian targets.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  I think that's a previous exhibit.  This is

21     indicated, according to the English, as a message transmitted by Colonel

22     Novakovic by telephone.  And as Mr. Kehoe indicated, I think the original

23     of the English is translated from French and is something different;

24     although, I haven't seen the French.

25             MR. KEHOE:  And, Your Honour, the French appears on, I'm informed

Page 4455

 1     by my colleagues, at 65 ter 411.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if you would like to move on.  I doubt

 3     there is an objection, but, as I say, I wasn't in a position to respond

 4     in the circumstances.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's give it a number, and I take it that you

 6     sought out what is original and what exactly the document is.

 7             Mr. Registrar, the document, on our screen, the message from

 8     General Mrksic to General Janvier, will have number?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D331, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, if you would have sorted out what it

11     actually is, would the content raise any objection?

12             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour.  It's a matter of the provenance.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then D331 is admitted into evidence, and the

14     Prosecution has not more than one week to revisit the provenance.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   General, if we move to Exhibit 341, this is a sitrep, and I note

18     it's at August 4th, at 1400 hours.  This is after your meeting at the RSK

19     headquarters, isn't it?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   Now, prior to your meeting, prior to this sitrep, had you had

22     written reports and documentation coming from any of your battalions in

23     the field that there was indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas taking

24     place in the Krajina?

25        A.   As far as I remember, yes, because that's what I based -- from

Page 4456

 1     what I had seen in Knin and the reports coming from my unit, that's what

 2     I based the sense of the letter that I sent to General Gotovina on

 3     the 4th.

 4        Q.   So, in your recollection, there was written documentation coming

 5     from your battalions on shelling of civilian areas; is that right?

 6        A.   I'm not sure if it was written.  It was passed, you know, to my

 7     OPs officer, who then passed it on to me.

 8        Q.   Well, you would agree with me, in going to page 2 of this

 9     document and the top of this page, in the third paragraph -- second

10     paragraph down, this report of "shelling of Knin and other towns is

11     reported to be indiscriminate and is continuing sporadically," that is

12     the first written document in UN Sector South calling this shelling

13     indiscriminate, isn't it?

14        A.   I don't know, sir.

15        Q.   Well, when you were preparing for your testimony, were you shown

16     any other document prior to this that -- prior to this sitrep, that

17     described the shelling as indiscriminate?  Do you recall?

18        A.   I don't recall.

19        Q.   Now, based on --

20             MR. KEHOE:  Let us turn to P83.

21        Q.   Now, General, this is your protest letter.  Now, did you write

22     this or was this sent out in the afternoon of the 4th of August?

23        A.   Did I what?

24        Q.   Was this letter -- was this letter sent out in the afternoon of

25     the 4th of August?

Page 4457

 1        A.   I think so, yes.

 2        Q.   Now, again, this was sent out after your meeting at the RSK?

 3        A.   Well, it was in the afternoon, for sure, because the meeting was

 4     according to the sitrep at around 11.30.

 5        Q.   Let's look at these cities in here.  The cities that you

 6     mention --

 7             MR. KEHOE:  If we can just blow up that first paragraph just a

 8     bit.

 9        Q.   Let's just pick a few out:  Medak.  You note that there was

10     artillery fire on the towns of Drnis, Medak and others, numerous civilian

11     casualties caused.

12             Now, with regard to Medak itself, were there military positions

13     of the RSK in Medak that were fired upon?

14        A.   I cannot tell you that.

15        Q.   General, let me take a look at your presentation at page 29.

16             MR. KEHOE:  That's P401.

17        Q.   Actually, that's good because this starts at we're talking about

18     the 5th of August, and you can see --

19             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the next page, the third to last

20     paragraph:  "Meanwhile ..." -- excuse me, fourth to last paragraph.  My

21     apologies.

22        Q.   "Meanwhile in the Medak valley," this is on the 5th, "the HV

23     broke the Serb defence at Medak by mid-afternoon on the 5th."

24             So, General, throughout the 4th and into mid-afternoon on

25     the 5th, there was significant fighting in the Medak area, wasn't there?

Page 4458

 1        A.   That seems to be the case, yes.

 2        Q.   What civilian facilities in Medak were hit with artillery fire?

 3        A.   I cannot tell you that.  Like I said, I got the report from my

 4     unit; and you will see in one of the sitrep, that we're saying that we

 5     would like to have verification, because when we received the report,

 6     usually we ask them, you know, to go and verify if it is exact, you know,

 7     what they are putting in the sitrep.

 8             But you must appreciate that during that period, there was report

 9     coming from all over my unit; and, unfortunately, we did not have the

10     capacity to go and verify.  So everything was based, and it was clearly

11     stated in one of my initial sitrep, that we could not verify the

12     exactitude of that.

13             But what I had seen when I was on the balcony, to me, again, I

14     repeat, it seems to be indiscriminate because it was falling -- the smoke

15     was coming from all the area in Knin; and the report that I was receiving

16     from my unit, in those towns that were specifically mentioned, was the

17     same thing.

18             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go back to P83, and if we can blow that up

19     just a little bit.

20        Q.   Now, this particular letter lists the cities and the reports the

21     allegations that you put in here after the war was ended.

22             Let's just start with Medak.  Did you go back and check?

23        A.   I did not.

24        Q.   Did you order anybody to go back and check?

25        A.   No.

Page 4459

 1        Q.   Let's turn to -- well, before we do that, General, this letter

 2     was being sent to Zagreb for dissemination throughout the international

 3     community, wasn't it?

 4        A.   No.  It was sent to our military observer officer to pass on to

 5     the LO, that it then would be passed to General Gotovina.  It was sent to

 6     the world at large.

 7        Q.   But it's CC'd at the bottom, and the copy is to?

 8        A.   Commander UNCRO, my boss.

 9        Q.   Al Rodin?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And did you have the expectation that it was going to be

12     disseminated to the world as a part of a media campaign?

13        A.   I had no expectation.  I was reporting to my boss.  What he did

14     with it afterwards, you know, that was out of my hands.  But in response

15     to what you were talking about, that we didn't go and see in Medak,

16     nobody asked me from Croat side, which they were aware of that letter, to

17     go and visit and make an inquiry after the trouble were finished.

18        Q.   Did you ask, General?

19        A.   Did they ask me?  No, they didn't ask me.

20        Q.   No, General.  You made the allegation in this letter.  Did you

21     ask to go visit?

22        A.   No.  I did not, and they did not ask me either.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, to the extent that --

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- your point is that you want to raise doubt as to

Page 4460

 1     the accuracy of the factual description of what appears in this letter,

 2     which is written in rather a chaotic situation, then that point has been

 3     made.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, just turning to Bunic very quickly.  It

 6     also lists Bunic, and if we can take a look at the sitrep Exhibit 340;

 7     P340, I might add.

 8        Q.   This is a sitrep of 4 August at 1020, and going to the section.

 9     The next page, talking about Bunic in the middle of the page:  Bunic is

10     in a critical situation.  ARSK suffered large casualties in Bunic.

11             General Sevo -- Colonel Sevo, excuse me.  You know Colonel Sevo,

12     don't you, General?

13        A.   I met him once.

14        Q.   "Colonel Sevo ordered to take transport means from there.  CESBAT

15     soldiers did not want give that to them."

16             Now, just staying with Bunic, you were aware that this was the

17     forward command post of the Lika Corps, also a command post for the

18     18th Infantry Battalion of the ARSK, were you not?

19        A.   No, sir.

20        Q.   Now staying with P83, sir, you noted for us that it was -- let me

21     change that question.

22             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go back to P83, and if we go to the bottom

23     of that page, all the way to the bottom on the fax line.

24        Q.   It reflects a transmission, if you can see at the bottom, of the

25     12th of August.  General, do you have any transmission or any document

Page 4461

 1     that this was actually transmitted to General Gotovina or his liaison

 2     officer?

 3        A.   As I mentioned before when I signed that letter and I passed it

 4     on to my OPs officer, it was either Colonel Tymchuk or Major balance

 5     four, I specifically stated I want to be sure that this letter reached

 6     the individual and he came back a little later on that it was passed on

 7     to the military observer that was in Zadar that he had passed it on to

 8     Captain Lukovic who would pass it on to General Gotovina.

 9        Q.   And you don't know if either Tymchuk or Balfour told you that?

10        A.   No.  If they come here, you should ask them that.

11        Q.   Did you get any written confirmation that it had been sent?

12        A.   I don't think so, no.

13        Q.   Do you know who the person was in Zadar that is UNMO in Zadar

14     that got this?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Was supposed to have gotten it?

17        A.   You asked me the same question the other day, and I said no, I

18     don't remember.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   Now, with regard to this, let me show you a video that you

21     haven't seen before.

22             MR. KEHOE:  It's 1D28-0028, and I do believe that this is fine at

23     this point, Your Honour.  I did have some transmission problems before.

24     It's an HTV report.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Any text?

Page 4462

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, a text has been given to the booth.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Can we start from the beginning.

 4                           [Videotape played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters need a little bit of time to

 6     find the text.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, if we can just start it from the

 8     beginning.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the interpreters tell us when they are ready?

10                           [Videotape played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "General Forand, Commander of Sector

12     South, sent a letter to General Gotovina in which civilians were being

13     killed and CESBAT by observation posts hit in Gospic and Otocac area ..."

14     --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, first of all, of course, I noticed the

16     difference.  I did not know what you provided to the booth.  There could

17     be a mistake.  We're all human beings.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's start this video again on from the beginning.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I think the booth has the transcript in

21     English.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.  Let's start again.

23                           [Videotape played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The Brigadier-General Forand,

25     Sector South commander, sent a letter to the commander of the Gospic

Page 4463

 1     military district, Brigadier Mirko Norac, vehemently protesting against

 2     the artillery attacks on Knin, Drnis, and Bukovac, in which civilians

 3     were being killed, and CESBAT observation posts hit in the Gospic and

 4     Otocac area.  He requested that the Croatian army should withdraw from

 5     the separation zone, as well as there was no reason for the attack and no

 6     provocation by the Serbs.  The barracks in Knin and Petrinja, the command

 7     posts of the corps and brigades, and the radio relay transmitter at

 8     Celavac, locations that were targeted by the Croatian army artillery,

 9     could by no means have been civilian buildings with unarmed Serb

10     civilians inside."

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   General, I'd like to show you one other document - this would

13     be P84 - before I ask you some questions about this video in conjunction

14     with that document.

15             P84 is a document from Colonel Leslie.  This is on the 12th of

16     August and written by Colonel Leslie, and he refers on the paragraph 5 to

17     your protest letter, that's two pages in.

18             Do you see that one sentence:  "Attached is a formal letter of

19     protest sent by Brigadier-General Forand to Ante Gotovina referred to

20     paragraph 4, referring to this letter that we've been discussing on

21     the 4th.  Now, if we may, you note that this memo is on the 12th.

22             Let's just go back to P83.

23             Now we note at the bottom on the fax line at the bottom of the

24     page, as we mentioned before, General, that this was faxed by your office

25     on the 12th of -- excuse me, on the 12th of August, and we also note that

Page 4464

 1     it is mentioned in Colonel Leslie's memo.

 2             Did Colonel Leslie, to your knowledge, call back down to Sector

 3     South headquarters to get a copy of this?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not a fax expert, Your Honour, but I don't know

 6     whether that is a fax from or to.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  I'll ask the General a question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second, one second.

 9             You say, Mr. Kehoe:  "And we also note that it is mentioned in

10     Colonel Leslie's memo."

11             MR. KEHOE:  "It" being this letter, Judge.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The letter.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The letter is mentioned in Colonel Leslie's memo.

15             MR. KEHOE:  It's back at --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because you are, by putting these composite

17     questions, you are very much drawing the attention to the fax line and

18     that it was faxed on the 12th.  Then you say:  "And we also note that it

19     is mentioned," and then you are not talking about fax lines anymore,

20     you're talking about the letter as such.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We should try to avoid that the gist of the question

23     is missed by a witness.

24             Please put your question again unless you - let me just see - it

25     is mentioned in Colonel Leslie's memo, this letter.

Page 4465

 1             Please put your question, Mr. Kehoe.

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Now, General, based on your working in Sector South, the fax line

 4     at the bottom means that it was sent from Sector South; isn't that right?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I mean, it doesn't make sense.  It was written on

 6     the 4th, and I specifically asked that it be sent to our military

 7     observer that it would be faxed on the 12th.  It doesn't make sense to

 8     me.

 9        Q.   Well, was Colonel Leslie calling back down to you asking for a

10     copy of this letter?

11        A.   He already had a copy because I had sent one on the 4th to the

12     UNCRO commander, and he was now on the -- at that date, the Chief of

13     Staff of UNCRO headquarter.

14        Q.   So do you not have knowledge about him calling down to get this

15     letter?

16        A.   No, sir, I don't.

17        Q.   Now, during the course of this particular --

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  We'll offer the video into

19     evidence, 1D28-0028.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D332, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  D332 is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 4466

 1             MR. KEHOE:

 2        Q.   Now, General, you noted in your -- yesterday when we were talking

 3     about the defences by the ARSK forces, that you were thinking that if

 4     they had additional time, they could buy time and get some possible

 5     intervention from the UN.  Do you recall that testimony?

 6        A.   I don't recall saying UN intervention.  What I'm saying is that

 7     if they would have had secondary and tertiary defensive position, they

 8     could have maybe stopped, you know, the Croat from advancing, and then

 9     maybe the UN could have intervened to try to reestablish peace.

10        Q.   Now, as part of getting that particular intervention from the UN,

11     it was important for you and the people in UN Sector South to give

12     information out to the world as to what was happening, wasn't it?

13        A.   No, it was not important.  Our job was to report, and we were

14     reporting.

15        Q.   Well, General, when you wrote this letter, were you exaggerating

16     the facts so that it would come to the attention, not only of the UN in

17     Zagreb, but also the diplomatic community?

18        A.   No, sir.  We reported -- what is in that letter is what I had

19     seen and what I was getting from my unit.  It was not an exaggeration.

20     To me, it represented the situation that I was portrayed.

21        Q.   General, did you ever, during the course of your time there, did

22     you or any of your officers exaggerate a particular situation for

23     political or diplomatic effect?

24        A.   No, sir.

25        Q.   Let me turn your attention to 1D28-0022.

Page 4467

 1             Now, earlier I think you mentioned that the two people that you

 2     would have sent this or given this letter to for transmission were either

 3     Colonel Tymchuk or Major Balfour.  I'm talking about the 4th August

 4     letter, and I note that the drafter of this sitrep of 9 August 1995 is

 5     Major Balfour.

 6             And if we can go to the second paragraph, it goes to the National

 7     Defence Headquarters in Canada from HQ Sector South.  The subject is

 8     "Sector South update sitreps."

 9             And it notes in this paragraph on 1800 hours:  "I suspect that

10     UNPF sitreps may exaggerate the situation for political diplomatic

11     effect.  No real problem here with drinking water or food, even feeding

12     700 refugees."

13             Now, General, that is an officer that is under your direct

14     command who told the -- your authorities, the National Defence

15     authorities, that UNPF sitreps were exaggerating the water and food

16     issue -- questions that were taking place within UN Sector South.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, would you please quote as what it says,

18     that he "suspects."

19             MR. KEHOE:  "I suspect."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not the same as --

21             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. KEHOE:

24        Q.   That he suspects that the UNPF sitreps may exaggerate the

25     situation for political and diplomatic effect.

Page 4468

 1             Now, what can you tell us about that exaggeration that Major

 2     Balfour suspects that was being for diplomatic -- political or diplomatic

 3     effects?

 4        A.   I don't know, sir.  You would have to ask him.  I don't know what

 5     he -- I never saw that sitrep.  Obviously, that was going from him to a

 6     certain person at National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa, but I've never

 7     seen that one.

 8        Q.   Well General, Major Balfour was the drafter of many of the

 9     sitreps that you released that were being sent up to Zagreb headquarters,

10     wasn't it?

11        A.   Those that I've signed, yes.

12        Q.   But you don't know anything about this particular --

13        A.   Well, this one, I don't see my name on that, you know, and I

14     don't remember ever being briefed about it.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer 1D28-0022 into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D333, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D333 is admitted into evidence.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KEHOE:

24        Q.   Now, staying on that issue of publicity and buying time, you

25     noticed, yesterday when we talking about buying time, consistent with

Page 4469

 1     what you said today on page 4356, that:  "In your mind, you know, if

 2     there was sufficient capability for the ARSK to defend, potentially the

 3     UN may have put some pressure on both sides to resume the peace.  That's

 4     what I had in mind."

 5             Now, there was a program -- I'm just letting them catch up,

 6     General.

 7             Now, there was a programme in effect called "Active Presence" at

 8     this time, wasn't there?

 9        A.   What's that?

10        Q.   Let me show you D288.

11             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the next page.

12        Q.   This is a item called "Active Presence," dated 24 July at 1400

13     hours, and I submit to you that it was signed by Major-General Al Rodin.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Now, if we turn to the second page, and if we can

15     just go to the mission.

16        Q.   Now, the mission of UNCRO after this order was "to support the

17     political process through the prevention of renewed hostilities," wasn't

18     it?

19        A.   I don't remember that.  I would have to read the whole document,

20     and then it would come back.

21        Q.   Well, maybe, then we can come back to it?

22        A.   Yeah.  If you give me a copy of that, I can read it during

23     dinner, but it doesn't ring a bell presently.

24        Q.   Well, was there a mission afoot to -- let's go back to your

25     actual actions.  When you got there in July, you began to put more

Page 4470

 1     personnel in your observation posts, didn't you?

 2        A.   No.  My plan was to increase the numbers of observation posts in

 3     certain area; but we started, I think, on the 1st of August to move

 4     certain element from the, if I remember well, from the Czech, the

 5     Jordanian, and the Canadian.  It was envisaged also to create more

 6     observation posts in the Dinara where the Kenyans were located.

 7        Q.   And you did that almost as soon as you started to come, did you

 8     not?

 9        A.   You mean as soon as I arrived in theatre?

10        Q.   Yes, after you had examined the situation.

11        A.   I started to plan around those ways.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, and, Mr. Forand, if you could observe

13     small breaks, it certainly would assist.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Now, if we could just go -- I'm sorry.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   But you did, in fact, give them an order, sir, that they were not

18     to withdraw from their positions in the case of conflict without your

19     order; isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   Why don't you turn to --

22             MR. KEHOE:  If we could turn to page 6 of this document.  One

23     page after that, if we can.

24        Q.   It notes in paragraph A, under 4, Action under renewed

25     hostilities:  "A, UNCRO forces shall remain in location upon renewed

Page 4471

 1     hostilities.  All actions necessary for self-defence shall be taken.

 2     UNCRO forces shall not withdraw, nor shall positions be abandoned,

 3     without authorisation.  Warring parties are to be informed of our

 4     intentions ..."

 5             Now, General, that is consistent with what you were doing, is it

 6     not?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   Now, did you do that -- I'm sorry.

 9             Did you do that in consultation with General Rodin?

10        A.   Well, I had started before I received this to increase the

11     security of my observation posts.

12        Q.   And, likewise, after that, were you in communication with

13     General Rodin that this is, in fact, what you were doing?

14        A.   Well, he was aware that we were improving our security, yes, sir.

15        Q.   Now, in addition to doing that, General, you had a public

16     information officer by the name of Mr. Roberts?

17        A.   He was not under my command.  He was part of UNCRO at the

18     headquarter, though.

19        Q.   Did your personnel give him information to disseminate?

20        A.   Well, he was receiving briefing like other people.

21        Q.   Now, you also had, and we saw during the course of this trial,

22     General Leslie was commenting for the media about, for instance, what was

23     happening both prior to and during Operation Storm.  Was he doing that

24     with your authorisation?

25        A.   I was not aware that he did it before the 4th; that's possible.

Page 4472

 1     During the 4th and the 5th, I did only two interviews, and it was either

 2     Mr. Roberts or Colonel Leslie, you know, that was conducting the other.

 3        Q.   Now, if we can turn to this page prior to this page.  If we note,

 4     this is a phased programme for Sector South.  And at the break, we'll

 5     give you an opportunity to read this yet further.

 6             It notes:  "Phase 1(i), Develop and implement a public

 7     information campaign," and then it talks about making decisions on

 8     disposition of forces.

 9             "Phase 2, Continue the active public campaign," and you redeploy

10     those forces.

11             Now, you did have a information campaign or did have a programme

12     for public information that you wanted to disseminate out of UN Sector

13     South using Mr. Roberts and Colonel Leslie, weren't you?

14        A.   I don't remember that.  I would have to read the whole document

15     exactly, you know - they are making a reference to an annex - to see

16     exactly what were they looking for, you know, as far as a public

17     information plan or campaign.

18        Q.   Well, let's look at phase 3, if we can, and (ii), and (ii) notes:

19     "When and where possible, interpose between the warring parties on the

20     Dinara mountains ..."

21             Now, that's what you were telling your troops to do, weren't you?

22        A.   That's what I was planning to do, yes, sir.

23        Q.   Now, General, this -- you were doing that, as we discussed

24     before, in an effort - I'm talking about interposing your troops between

25     the warring factions - to buy time for the UN to intervene, weren't you?

Page 4473

 1        A.   No, it was not to buy time.  The only reason is that I wanted to

 2     have a better idea within the zone of separation than I was getting,

 3     because the distance between some observation posts was up to three to

 4     four kilometre.  And because of the activity that was taking place, I

 5     said I wanted to have more and better information.  It was not to give

 6     more time, it was to have better information.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I don't know if it's helpful or not, Your Honour.

 9     The document that's being discussed is from August 1st, predating --

10             MR. KEHOE:  No, it's not.  It's the 24th of July.

11             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry.  Okay.  Correct.  In any event, predating

12     Storm was the point.  The discussion about --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not start commenting on the material.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Essentially, the witness is being confronted with

15     previous testimony that is related to a different time period and a

16     different subject, frankly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, the witness is answering questions at

18     this moment which Mr. Kehoe puts to him in relation to a document from

19     General Janvier to Kofi Annan, which as far as I've been able to locate

20     at this moment sets out a lot of things not necessarily saying who is

21     tasked with exactly what to do but that's --

22             THE WITNESS:  Sir.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Forand.

24             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  The document I have on my screen is not

25     Mr. Kofi Annan, it seems to be a directive from General Rodin to his

Page 4474

 1     sector commander.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you see what happens if we are dealing with

 3     documents in this way because this is, as a matter of fact, it is a

 4     document sent by Mr. Janvier to Mr. Annan.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Right.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's at least what I read on the first page.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  It is, Judge, and what it is, it includes a copy

 8     of -- it notes is it's a copy of headquarter UNCRO's OP order dated 24

 9     July 1995 is attached for your information.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Let's move on, Mr. Kehoe.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   Now, General, just -- and you will get an opportunity to look at

13     this.  If we can look at page 2 at the top of the page.  It notes that

14     as -- "Under friendly forces of the role of the UNPF in Zagreb will

15     support active presence with high level diplomatic and press campaign

16     designed to show that UNCRO is doing all that can be done to implement

17     SCR 981 and that is UNCRO's withdrawal will lead to an intensification of

18     the conflict."

19             Now, General let's just take this sequentially.  Prior to

20     Operation Storm, you put additional observation posts out in the Zone of

21     Separation?

22        A.   I was planning to and I think I was able to implement maybe two

23     observation posts in the Czech and the Canadian Battalion area, that's

24     all.

25        Q.   And you told the commanders, both on the ARSK side and General

Page 4475

 1     Gotovina that you were going to do it whether they liked it or not?

 2        A.   I was there to inform them that that was my intention and to see

 3     from them, you know, if it created any major problem then obviously I

 4     would have had to adjust, but basically I was not asking their

 5     permission.  And I also tried to meet with General Norac which I did, one

 6     time, I don't remember if it was for that instance or before.

 7        Q.   And turning to Operation Storm, UN Sector South had a series of

 8     transmissions that you began mid-day being sent up to Zagreb where you

 9     described the shelling by the HV forces as indiscriminate; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, sir.

11        Q.   In addition to that, you had Mr. -- you didn't have, you didn't

12     have Mr. Roberts, but Mr. Roberts and Colonel Leslie were on the media

13     sources describing what was taking place; isn't that right?

14        A.   I know that I had to ask Colonel Leslie to respond to a major

15     query because I did not have the time.

16        Q.   Now, this is the same Colonel Leslie that this morning described

17     the shelling during Operation Storm killing between 10.000 and 25.000,

18     it's the same?

19        A.   Well, there was only one Colonel Leslie in my headquarter.

20        Q.   Was the operation in UN Sector South, Colonel -- excuse me,

21     General, engaged in a series of exaggerations during Operation Storm so

22     that you could buy time for UN intervention?

23        A.   That's three time you ask me the same question and I say no

24     again.

25        Q.   Well, General --

Page 4476

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is correctly drawing your attention to

 2     the fact that these questions become repetitious.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  I will --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  On the subject, one more question, Mr. Kehoe, but

 5     let's move on.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour I'm moving on.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently you've --

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   If we turn to the situation of the UN personnel that were taken

10     by the HV in - I'm trying to get the exhibit - P343, if we can bring that

11     up on the screen.  If we can go to page 5 of that document.  Is that page

12     5.  I'm talking about page 5 on the top, if we can go page -- three more

13     pages in.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, there is a protocol that you should refer

15     to the page of the document as it appears in e-court because where you

16     earlier referred to page 2, that page was on the top page 3 and was page

17     3 in the -- so whenever we turn to pages, it should be the pages as they

18     appear in the e-court uploaded document.

19             Please proceed.  Do we have the right page now?

20             MR. KEHOE:  We do, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   Now, General, at the bottom of that page, it is being described

24     as acts against UNPROFOR.  "Deliberate attacks, HV troops surrounded and

25     disarmed a lot of OPs in sector.  Some UN soldiers from these OPs were

Page 4477

 1     taken to the Croatian side of the Zone of Separation.  HV troops have

 2     taken a total of 40 KenBat soldiers as hostages ..."

 3             Now, in other correspondence, did you also describe them as

 4     prisoners?

 5        A.   You will have to show me the other correspondence.

 6        Q.   Well, before we move to the other correspondence, with regard to

 7     these particular Kenyan soldiers, at the time did you ask for close air

 8     support or for the Canadians, were you asking for close air support to

 9     deter the HV from moving into those areas?

10        A.   There was one instance where we requested that UNCRO headquarter

11     and air support for the Canadian, and another instance where it was

12     requested for the Czech who they were having a problem with some Muslim

13     organisation from the Bihac area, I remember there were five BiH, or

14     something like that.

15        Q.   And you were -- in this close air support, this was going up to

16     Zagreb, wasn't it?

17        A.   Oh, yes, because I did not have the authority over those people.

18        Q.   And in that particular instance, when you were asking for this

19     close air support, it was the threat to bomb these people, wasn't it?

20        A.   It was used as a threat to the Croats so that -- okay -- it was

21     used as a threat to the Croat so that they would not expel the Canadian

22     from the observation posts.

23        Q.   My question was it was a threat to bomb these people, that these

24     troops, wasn't it?  That's a different ...

25             THE WITNESS:  Can I --

Page 4478

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  We have to wait for the French

 2     translation.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I don't have on my screen the question as they are

 4     typed.  Is it possible to have it?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that there's no problem if you would read

 6     the transcript, and then you are also invited as long as the text is

 7     still moving, we are still working on it, so if you could wait for the

 8     answer until it has stopped moving.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Because Your Honour, I did not have on my screen

10     the writing.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

12             Mr. Kehoe, perhaps now you repeat the question.

13             MR. KEHOE:

14        Q.   General, I understand that the attempt was to deter the HV from

15     moving into the area, but that also comes with the threat to bomb these

16     units, isn't it?

17        A.   Well, that was the aim, yes.

18        Q.   And --

19        A.   Otherwise there is no threat.

20        Q.   And was that likewise -- obviously you told us that went up to

21     Zagreb.  Was that likewise something you contemplated when the Kenyans

22     were taken, as you described, as hostages?

23        A.   No, because the -- we had good communication with the Canadian

24     but the communication with the Kenyan, when I learned about it, they were

25     already, you know, in the hand of the Croat, so it was too late.

Page 4479

 1        Q.   Now, you ordered this close air support, for instance, in the

 2     CanBat area when you knew that there was a co-location problem with ARSK

 3     forces next to OPs isn't that right?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, may I take it that you wanted to say, Now

 5     you requested this close --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Requested, exactly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was the question.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   Isn't that right, sir, you requested close air support when you

10     knew that there was a co-location problem with ARSK forces next to the

11     OPs?

12        A.   To my knowledge, there was no ARSK force close to the OP.

13        Q.   To your knowledge?

14        A.   To my knowledge, yes, sir.

15        Q.   You were not being shown the situation reports that were coming

16     in that ARSK forces were near your OPs?

17        A.   Not in the Canadian area, no, sir.

18        Q.   Well, suffice it to say, sir, that that -- let's turn our

19     attention to 1D28-0017.

20             The bottom of the page on paragraph 3, this is going to -- from

21     Janvier, General Janvier to Kofi Annan on the 5th of August, under 3.  "I

22     regret the confusion caused by the use of the term "prisoners" in

23     reference C, however, the initial HV advance and the systematic clearing

24     of UN OPs created considerable confusion.  Thus it was assumed that the

25     UN soldiers who had been taken by the HV were in fact prisoners.  Recent

Page 4480

 1     returns of some of these personnel would indicate that the HV are in fact

 2     forcibly escorting UN soldiers to other locations but are not treating

 3     them as prisoners."

 4             Now, General, in your initial correspondence with Zagreb, were

 5     you describing these people as prisoners?

 6        A.   Well, as you saw, it was hostage but I think I came to the same

 7     conclusion that -- as Mr. Akashi that wrote this letter, because we found

 8     out afterwards that our soldier had been well treated by the Croats but

 9     at the time, I did not have that particular information and at that time,

10     the information that I had was they were forcibly removed.  Well, in my

11     view when you forcibly remove, they were being taken hostages.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Forand, I have one very general question for you

13     which is the following:  In your reporting, did you ever, on purpose,

14     exaggerate either for media purposes or for political purposes or have

15     you always reported to the best of your knowledge about what you thought

16     at that moment was reality?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  In my view, I have never exaggerated.

18     It was based on the information I was receiving and that's what I was

19     passing along.  Yes, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, this is a rather general question and we

21     heard a lot of questions and a lot of answers which all apparently were

22     in the same context, and I think that you could move on.  Please proceed.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

24        Q.   General, just turning your attention to 1D28-0001, paragraph 5.

25     This is a United States Department of Defence cable of 6 August,

Page 4481

 1     paragraph 5.

 2             Now, likewise that says on -- the first sentence, "Claims reports

 3     of deliberate targeting of UN OPs and other positions are not accurate."

 4             That's true, sir, isn't it?  That the observation posts were not

 5     deliberately targeted, were they?

 6        A.   Well, there were some that were.

 7        Q.   General, you talked about -- and let me go to D229 -- D29.  You

 8     talked about the shelling of Knin in the course of your testimony and

 9     your statements, and looking at paragraph 2, this is by Mr. Akashi to

10     Mr. Annan.

11              "My overall impression of the town of Knin is that it suffered

12     considerable damage from artillery fire, which was evident in the

13     streets, where I observed many shops with broken windows, cars damaged

14     and off the road, artillery shell holes in the road, et cetera.  However,

15     the damage to the town's structures, while noticeable, was less than I

16     anticipated."

17             Now, were you informed of that, General, that the damage that

18     was -- people expected to see such as Mr. Akashi on the 7th, was less

19     than anticipated?

20        A.   No, Mr. Akashi did not confide in me, you know, that he had seen

21     that.

22        Q.   General, as you sit here today, was the information that was

23     provided to you by your subordinates such as Colonel Leslie concerning

24     things like the shelling of Knin greatly exaggerated as was his estimates

25     of the amount killed during that shelling?

Page 4482

 1        A.   I didn't consider it exaggerated.  I had total confidence, you

 2     know, in his capability to assess and he was an artillery officer, so he

 3     was in a better position, you know, to comment on that shelling than

 4     almost anybody else in the headquarter.

 5        Q.   So you relied on what General Leslie was saying and doing when

 6     you were making your decisions?

 7        A.   Well, he was my Chief of Staff.

 8        Q.   General, let me turn our attention to --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, when you were talking about his

10     estimates, what estimates were you referring to?  The ones in the

11     broadcast or in the reporting or ... because I think that 10.000 to

12     25.000 had been dealt with.  I think that the witness has answered that.

13             So it's not clear to me what estimates you are now talking about.

14             MR. KEHOE:  I will go back to a particular item.  And I was

15     trying to -- I possibly moved through this too quickly.

16        Q.

17             I want to go back to your testimony, General, that you said on

18     page 4115 that you were on -- looking at the shelling for about ten

19     minutes.  Then on line 8, and you are discussing other personnel up

20     there, "It seemed to those that were observing that shelling that was

21     also indiscriminate and in their view, there was no military target

22     there."  You said that, I believe, the day before yesterday.

23             The person that you were talking about was Colonel Leslie, wasn't

24     it.

25        A.   No, I don't remember Colonel Leslie being there when I was there.

Page 4483

 1     There was five or six other officers from my headquarter, but I don't

 2     remember Colonel Leslie being there at that time.

 3        Q.   Was Colonel Leslie talking to you during the course of the day

 4     that he had concluded that this fire was indiscriminate and that it was

 5     not -- it was not directed towards military targets?

 6        A.   Well, we must have spoken during the day for sure, before I wrote

 7     the letter.

 8        Q.   And you would naturally in the course of things rely on the

 9     information that Colonel Leslie gave you while you would be writing this

10     letter?

11        A.   For sure.  On him and others also.

12        Q.   Well, General, let me show you, if I may --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I am looking at the clock.

14             MR. KEHOE:  If I may finish this one subject, I will be a couple

15     of minutes, Judge, and I will be out of this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. KEHOE:  It is 1D17-0106.

18        Q.   General, this is the recommendation -- if you go to the next

19     page.  And then the next page.  This is the recommendation signed by you

20     for Colonel Leslie proposing him for an award, and if we can go to the

21     next page?

22        A.   Can I read that?

23        Q.   Yes, sir.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And if we can go to the next page, it's the recommendation for a

Page 4484

 1     meritorious service cross.  And if we can go down to report 2.  "During

 2     the initial intense artillery barrage on Knin on 4 August 1995,

 3     Colonel Leslie realised that approximately 40 UN employees were trapped

 4     in their residences in the downtown area.  Without concern for his own

 5     safety, he organised and participated in several rescue missions to

 6     collect them and bring them to the relative safety of the UN camp using

 7     armoured personnel carriers.  His decisive intervention almost certainly

 8     saved many UN employees from serious injury or death."

 9             Now --

10        A.   Could you higher and see where -- is it attached to the -- what

11     you showed me before?

12        Q.   What's that, sir?

13        A.   What's on top of that page?

14        Q.   This is a sequence of pages --

15        A.   I know but it is related to the other document or ...

16        Q.   Yes, sir, it's one central -- one document of multiple pages.  I

17     can go back and just show you the other pages?

18        A.   No, no.  I just thought there was something written at the top.

19     I'm looking at the date, November.

20        Q.   That's when it was provided to -- it looks like the Department of

21     Justice.  It's a recent item.  This is back -- the date of this

22     submission by you, General, is -- you signed it on 10 October 1995.

23        A.   But this seems to indicate November.  I'm trying to remember if I

24     signed only the first part.  This, I don't remember and you know how the

25     system works for a medal in Canada?

Page 4485

 1        Q.   Well, General, specifically, I do not.  Other than this was

 2     provided by the National Defence as the package for this submission for

 3     General Leslie.

 4        A.   Because the way it works, Your Honour, is that I make a

 5     recommendation but because I was a sector commander, I was not considered

 6     by the Canadian as a Canadian but as a UN member.  I had to send that

 7     recommendation to the contingent commander, who was a Mr. Daigle, Colonel

 8     Daigle on the first page, then he has to send it to the National Defence

 9     Headquarters where it is a committee that sits, and then if it is agreed,

10     they recommend the individual for a medal.  The individual is not aware

11     that he will receive a medal until it is announced that he will receive a

12     medal, and he does not know the content of the citation until he goes in

13     front of the Governor General and then it's read to him.

14        Q.   General, this recommendation if you go to page 2 was signed by

15     you.

16        A.   Okay.  Then --

17        Q.   Just turn the page -- the next page of this document.  That's

18     your signature at the bottom of this page, is it not?

19        A.   It sure is.

20        Q.   And let us turn back to the prior page and the report two.  Going

21     back to that General, when it talks about General Leslie's activities,

22     " ... saving 40 UN employees --" saying, "His decisive intervention

23     almost certainly saved many UN employees from serious injury or death."

24     That, General, is an exaggeration of what he did, isn't it, sir?

25        A.   In what sense, sir?

Page 4486

 1        Q.   Well, he didn't do it, did he?

 2        A.   He didn't do it personally, but he organised without concern, he

 3     organised and participated.  He -- I remember that he went at least on

 4     two of those recuperation, but the aim here is that he organised, you

 5     know, those trips to go and get those people.

 6        Q.   It notes here, sir, that he participated in several rescue

 7     missions and he didn't, did he?

 8        A.   To my knowledge, I thought he had participated in at least two.

 9        Q.   Are you aware, General, that on page -- that General Leslie told

10     this Court at page 2117 that he said, "The first time I became aware of

11     this citation and I was unaware that it was being prepared, was when it

12     was at the Government House, the conclusion of this I spoke to the vice

13     chief defence staff and said, I think you got it wrong.  I think you're

14     talking about 30 or 40 civilians from the hospital being moved.  And

15     after a bit of discussion, he told me, that's good enough.  It's going to

16     stay because you're going in for that.  You're going to get it for being

17     the Chief of Staff duties."

18             General, where did you get this information that Leslie,

19     Colonel Leslie, had participated in these rescue missions?

20        A.   I knew personally that the 40 UN employees, that doesn't seem to

21     be the case, but I remember that he went and got some people in the town,

22     you know, early in the morning of the 4th.

23        Q.   And who told you that?

24        A.   It was reported to me, I think, by either Colonel Tymchuk or

25     Major Balfour.

Page 4487

 1        Q.   By Tymchuk or Balfour?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   Would it surprise you, General, to note that Colonel Leslie

 4     maintains he made one trip to find an address and picked up several UN

 5     employees and that's -- that was it?

 6        A.   Well, if you say so.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, it's break time -- I'm after break time

 8     so ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break and we'll resume at five minutes

11     to 1.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, the Chamber granted you extra time on an

15     application.  The Chamber has considered during the last break the

16     present situation.  The Chamber unanimously concluded that if we would

17     have known the way in which you have used your time in cross-examination

18     that we would not have granted extra time.

19             This may appear not useful for you to know, but for future

20     applications, it's certainly important for you to be aware of this.

21             We're not reversing the decision.

22             For you, Mr. Forand, even if we would not have granted extra

23     time, we would not have finished by 12.00, so it doesn't change your

24     situation which -- on which I expressed myself already before.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe, you have got 59 minutes left.  If you

Page 4488

 1     could conclude in the next 46 minutes, that would be appreciated.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We encourage you to do it but the time granted is

 4     granted.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   I'm going to shift gears, General, and turn to the Alun Roberts

 7     situation where you stated that General Gotovina threatened Alun Roberts

 8     for being a spy and a provocateur, I believe?

 9        A.   I don't remember the exact words, it was in my sitrep.

10        Q.   Now, General, you do know that the animosity between Mr. Roberts

11     and General Gotovina predated Operation Storm, do you not?

12        A.   I saw something in what was presented to me that seemed to

13     indicate that, yes, sir.

14        Q.   And had it been a subject of discussion about this animosity

15     between the two of them?

16        A.   You mean to me?

17        Q.   Yes?

18        A.   By either one?

19        Q.   Either one?

20        A.   I don't remember that, sir.

21        Q.   General Gotovina accused Mr. Roberts of being a spy.  And my

22     question to you was:  Was he?

23        A.   Mr. Roberts a spy?

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   Not to my knowledge.  Spy for who?

Page 4489

 1        Q.   Was he providing information directly or indirectly to the

 2     Serbian authorities?

 3        A.   Not to my knowledge, sir.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  We will tie that up in future witnesses, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Let me shift gears to some of the other issues that you raised

 6     and in your testimony, you noted on page 4143, line 19, "Yes, because the

 7     looting I saw was on the 5th when I was returning from the hospital and

 8     also the looting that I saw taking place in front of the headquarters

 9     when we were surrounded.  Some of the IDP had left their vehicles outside

10     of the gate because obviously there was no place in my compound and we

11     saw some HV troops, you know, looting the contents of those vehicles."

12             I'd like to talk to you first about the first sentence.  You were

13     returning from the hospital on the 5th.  You said "... because the

14     looting I saw was on the 5th when I returned from the hospital."

15             Now, let me show you first the 1D28-0150.  Now, as this is coming

16     up on the screen, General, you noted that you had picked up some ECMM

17     individuals and brought them back to the compound; is that right?

18        A.   Yes, sir.

19        Q.   And I want you to take a look at this, this is an ECMM report for

20     1245 on the 5th of August.  And it notes in paragraph 3 -- excuse me --

21     yes, paragraph 3, the 5 APCs that had gone to the hospital and their way

22     back through town.  If you can briefly go through that.  And in paragraph

23     4, it accounts that "On the way back through the town, we were stopped by

24     5 HV tanks."  That was your experience going back through the town, was

25     it not, General?

Page 4490

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   Now, in paragraph 6, the ECMM individual notes that the HV

 3     soldiers appear to be professional and are treating the civilian

 4     population fairly, but I am not so sure about any soldiers they meet."

 5             Now, that is counter what you testified to concerning that drive

 6     as well -- excuse me, strike that.  That's counter to what you observed

 7     during that drive, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   Now, you also noted for us during the course of your testimony

10     that you saw 22 bodies?

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12        Q.   And this notes three bodies that were -- excuse me -- three

13     bodies that were not there on the outward journey, all of these were ARSK

14     soldiers.

15             Now, these individuals were travelling with you and they saw

16     three bodies yet you saw 22.

17        A.   You think he says three that were not there.  He doesn't say that

18     he had not seen others before.

19        Q.   Well, did you take a different route back and forth?

20        A.   No, same route.

21        Q.   And --

22        A.   I count 22.  What can I say?

23        Q.   Now, let us turn to -- can I offer that into evidence, Your

24     Honour, 1D28-0150.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

Page 4491

 1             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D334, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Let us turn --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D334 is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  I apologise, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Let us turn our attention to P345.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.  You put to the witness, you read the

10     report in a certain way where it seems to be not unambiguous.  You could

11     read, I saw three bodies that were not there on the outward journey, or I

12     saw three bodies that were not on the outward -- I mean you can read it

13     two different ways.  Do we agree on that?

14             MR. KEHOE:  We agree on that, Judge.  And if we're reading it in

15     your fashion --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not in my fashion, I read two fashions.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Two fashions, yes, whatever fashion, but in any event

18     there is no discussion of 22 bodies.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  No.  That's clear.  Please proceed.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   This is a situation report of 5 August, 1200 hours.  And if I can

22     go to the second page of this exhibit, the next page.  And by the way,

23     this is part of the commander's assessment.  And you note I just read

24     over, HVO soldiers are now at the gates of the HQSS compound, and going

25     to the top of this page, "The city of Knin is now completely in the hands

Page 4492

 1     of the HV.  They entered at approximately 10.00 a.m.  We were able to

 2     gather more refugees within the camp and with the compliance of the HV,

 3     we managed to move 60 sick and wounded from the Knin hospital.  During

 4     the last run into Knin, the sector commander SC and party were met by

 5     Croats.  Knin is full of tanks and APC.  HV soldiers were not seen

 6     abusing civilians nor military but were fairly friendly."

 7             Now, that is your assessment at the time, was it not, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, as written there.

 9        Q.   And there's no discussion obviously of any looting?

10        A.   But there was looting that took place.

11        Q.   Let me turn your attention back to the next document which is

12     P351.  This is a sitrep of 6 August, 1300.  If we can move to two more

13     pages in, three more pages in, as part of the commander's -- the general

14     situation.  This is a -- two sentences down, it notes that, "OC military

15     police patrol entered buildings looking for evidence of looting and

16     destruction and found little evidence of ransacking or wanton

17     destruction.  What looting there is seems limited to beer and portable

18     radios, et cetera.  Now, 20 to 25 civilians were seen carrying on life as

19     best they could without interference from the HV."

20             Now, once again, that was an assessment that you got from --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait.

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   -- Captain Hill, General, and would you agree that to the extent

24     that there was any looting, it was minor?

25        A.   According to him, but I know what I've seen and there was

Page 4493

 1     soldiers coming in and out of the stores, you know, that were on the main

 2     street.

 3        Q.   Now, going to D29.  In the second paragraph, about midway through

 4     it says, "There is a significant HV presence ..." this is on the 7th.  It

 5     notes that "There was a significant HV presence in the town, but the

 6     soldiers did not appear overly ruly; although, several were drinking beer

 7     or spirts around noon."  And one last document on this score which would

 8     be P52, which is another sitrep from 2030 hours on the 6th.

 9             Now, if we can go to the last page of that document.  I'm sorry,

10     if we could go one page in.  And this is a -- as I noted, General,

11     another sitrep as of the 2030 on the 6th.  In the last paragraph, again,

12     this is a part of the sector commander's summary.

13             In the last sentence, of the last -- of F, "More civilians

14     including cars with Split licence plates are seen in Knin, and a sense of

15     normalcy is returning.  Tanks and APCs have disappeared to be replaced by

16     masses of humanity [sic] --" excuse me, "masses of infantry."  Excuse me.

17             Now, in your assessment, General, by the evening of the 6th of

18     August, had a sense of normalcy returned to Knin as you set out in this

19     sitrep?

20        A.   You're asking me?

21        Q.   Yes, sir.

22        A.   Yes, based on what we were seeing on my camp because we were not

23     allowed out.

24        Q.   Well you did -- Captain Hill was going about town, is isn't that

25     right?

Page 4494

 1        A.   Well, he went once.  I don't know if he was allowed many times

 2     after that.

 3        Q.   And he provided you information as to what he saw and observed;

 4     right?

 5        A.   In the sitrep as shown, yes.

 6        Q.   And based on the information that you received, you concluded

 7     that a sense of normalcy had returned?

 8        A.   At that time, yes, sir.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Now -- and again, you note during the course of your

10     testimony -- and the looting issue, you point to a looting of a vehicle

11     outside of your headquarters, and again I refer you back to 4143, line 23

12     through 24.  And if I could go to 1D28-0040.  And this is a video.  Yes,

13     there is no interpretation on this Judge, I am informed.

14                           [Videotape played]

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   Now, General, is that the incident that you're talking about?

17        A.   I don't remember.  I mean I don't remember the car.  There was a

18     couple of cars, you know, that were in front so I don't remember exactly

19     if it was that car or not.

20        Q.   Well, General, the automobile that you were talking about, this

21     is the one that was in front of the headquarters?

22        A.   You tell me.

23        Q.   Well, you tell me.  The one you're referring to, sir?

24        A.   I don't remember if that were -- there were some cars in front of

25     the headquarter.  Was it that one?  I don't remember.

Page 4495

 1        Q.   Well, let me --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, I will tender this video.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one clarifying question.  You said there

 4     were some cars in front, did you see when the looting -- when you

 5     observed the looting, several cars being there or one isolated car?

 6             THE WITNESS:  No, there was three or four cars, but I saw looting

 7     from only one car, what I considered looting.  They were removing stuff

 8     from the vehicle.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you remember any shooting the locks off

10     the --

11             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it that you remember that that's not what

13     happened or that you don't remember whether this was the way.

14             THE WITNESS:  I don't remember if that was the way that he used

15     to open the baggage.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D335, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.  That will be admitted

21     into evidence.  That is then D335 is admitted into evidence.  Please

22     proceed.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Let me read you a portion of Colonel Leslie's portion at 2191 at

25     line 2 going through line 11.  Question:  "Did you in any way personally

Page 4496

 1     observe any looting or burning either within the city of Knin or outside

 2     the city of Knin?  Answer:  "Yes, sir.  There were a couple of vehicles

 3     that had been abandoned by Serbs in close proximity to the headquarters.

 4     You could see some Croatian soldiers rummaging through the vehicles.  I

 5     did not see any looting inside Knin with one very minor exception, and to

 6     be fair, to be fair, that one incident I saw, one could argue that that

 7     may be someone who was searching that vehicle to see if there were any

 8     explosives or such."

 9             Now, the vehicle that you saw, was that the vehicle that you --

10     was General Leslie observing the same thing?

11        A.   I don't know whether he was at that time, but I would say, you

12     know, if you think there is explosive inside, you wouldn't use a rifle to

13     shoot at it.

14        Q.   I wouldn't say it was the wise thing to do, but were you

15     observing the same vehicle that Colonel Leslie was observing?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has answered this question.  Please

17     proceed.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

19        Q.   Now, you noted a issue of looting and there is a difference

20     between ransacking a place and looting it, taking things away, isn't

21     there?  To your mind?

22        A.   Well, I'm not sure I know the difference between ransacking and

23     looting.  To me it seems to be the same action.

24        Q.   Well, let me show you a video, if I could, and this is again

25     taken in your camp and is provided that compilation that was received by

Page 4497

 1     the Prosecutor and it's 1D28-0034.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Kehoe, you asked whether the witness was

 3     aware that there was a difference between ransacking and looting.

 4     Apparently you consider that there is a difference.  Now the witness says

 5     "I'm not aware.  For me it's all the same."

 6             For us, I'm not also not a native English speaker --

 7             MR. KEHOE:  And what I'm going to do Judge is use the next video

 8     as a way of exploring that just briefly, the difference between

 9     ransacking and looting.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the witness says -- okay.  Let's see what

11     happens.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, I do believe that the booths have

13     the transcript on this.

14                           [Videotape played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This woman wants to go to Knin."

16             "Yes, she wants to leave."

17             "Okay.  When does she want to go?"

18             "Right now."

19             "Okay.  Now is she Serb or Croat?"

20             "She is Serb."

21             "Does she understand that there is no water, no electricity, no

22     telephone?"

23             "Yes, she does."

24             "And almost every house has been ransacked, so everything is

25     thrown everywhere."

Page 4498

 1             "Yes, she knows that."

 2             "Okay.  And is she living alone?"

 3             "She is living alone, but her daughter is in ..."

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   General, based -- you recognise Norm Boucher in that?

 6        A.   No, sir.  Is he a Canadian or what?

 7        Q.   He is.  CIVPOL.

 8        A.   I don't remember him.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the French translation of the video clip has

10     been completed.  Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   Now, General, when we talk about the -- what this lady was

13     talking about --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- the consequence of not waiting is that where

15     you can read relatively easy from the text that portions of what was said

16     after that have, as far as I am aware of, not been translated into French

17     so would you please resume --

18             MR. KEHOE:  We can play it again, Judge.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not -- but your questions.  You can see them on

20     the screen, "General, you recognise ..." that part is, as far as I'm

21     aware of, is lost in the French translation.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

23        Q.   I asked you, General, do you recognise Norm Boucher in that

24     video?

25        A.   No, sir.  And you said is he a Canadian or what?

Page 4499

 1        Q.   And I said he is CIVPOL.

 2        A.   I don't remember him.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now everything is on the record.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   General, there -- going through Knin to your recollection, was

 6     there a degree of police and soldiers going from apartment to apartment

 7     doing security searches and in the course of that throwing items around?

 8        A.   I don't remember that, that was in the main street and I don't

 9     think there was that many apartment within that street.

10        Q.   Was there, based on the information you received, a process of

11     going through Knin by the HV authorities looking for weapons or

12     booby-traps or things of that nature?

13        A.   They must have had that.  They had entered Knin and I suppose as

14     part of their order that's the first thing they would have done.

15        Q.   And that would be based on your military experience, a normal

16     thing that a military would do or a police department would do going

17     through a town to secure it; is that right?

18        A.   They better do it, yes.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour can I move this video into evidence?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D336, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D336 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 4500

 1        Q.   Yes.  And if I can turn, General, back to P401, it's a matter

 2     that we touched on yesterday, and we are shifting topics here, General.

 3             Now, in the document that you have, you note in the second

 4     paragraph -- and this is P401.  It's your presentation, General, page 20,

 5     paragraph 2.  Do you see that, General?

 6        A.   It begins by "However, we have to recognise ..."

 7        Q.   Yes, that's right, sir.

 8             The second sentence, you note that:  "But, overall, I believe

 9     that the Croatians do not possess a professional army."

10             And you were asked, yesterday on page 4350 at line 21:  "General,

11     you knew that this was an army that had just begun; isn't that right?"

12             "Yes."

13             "Question:  And had been formed approximately a year or so ago

14     prior to Operation Storm."

15             "Answer:  Yes, sir."

16             General, based on your military experience, how long does it take

17     to train a brigade-level commander?

18        A.   First, you have to have a brigade.  It depends on what type of

19     training, what level.  If it's combat arms or if it is -- depending on

20     the type of forces you have, it could take -- I don't know.  I became a

21     General, you know, after 25 years.  So you have to build it up.  Some

22     people may be able to learn faster than others, but I would say it would

23     take quite a while.

24        Q.   If we're talking about a brigade level as part of an infantry

25     corps, when you say "quite a while," how long are you talking about?

Page 4501

 1        A.   I would say, because you have -- you would have to train and to

 2     do some real training and all that, from two to three years at least, to

 3     be proficient.

 4        Q.   As a brigade level commander?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   And how about at the battalion level, how long would it take to

 7     be proficient?

 8        A.   Again, it could be a couple of years, depending also the rank of

 9     the individual, depending on his background and his experience.  I mean,

10     there's a lot of factor that has to be weighted in.  The courses that he

11     would have followed, I mean, you don't become a battalion commander as

12     soon as you were enrolled in the army, you know.  It takes a little while

13     before you reach that level.

14        Q.   And in the Canadian Army, how long would it take to become a

15     battalion commander once you joined the officer corps in the Canadian

16     Armed Forces?

17        A.   I don't know about the other, but for me it took 15 years.

18        Q.   And at the brigade level of the Canadian army, how long would it

19     take an officer to become a brigade level commander?

20        A.   Well, again, it depends on the individual.  I was in 1993, I was

21     born in 1944, so 49 years.

22        Q.   Forty-nine years?

23        A.   No, I was 49 years.  I mean 1967 to 1993, that's, what, 28.

24        Q.   Twenty-eight years?

25        A.   Yeah.  But, again, this is not -- it's in line, you know, with

Page 4502

 1     that you're competing with your confrere, and we have only three brigade

 2     in Canada.  So the selection process may take a little bit longer because

 3     there's only three brigade, which normally change every two years.

 4        Q.   But in any event, it would take a significant period of time?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   At the company level, obviously down the ladder from the brigade

 7     and the battalion level --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 9     question and answer, and slow down for the purposes of the

10     interpretation.  Thank you very much.

11             MR. KEHOE:  My apologies -- our apologies.

12        Q.   At the company level --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also please come to your point, Mr. Kehoe?

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   Yes.  At the company level, it would, likewise, take a

16     significant period of time?

17        A.   It took me 11 years.

18        Q.   Now, it would take yet longer to train up this cadre of officers

19     and commanders during a time of war, wouldn't it?

20        A.   Well, you accelerate the process.  Usually, it would be shorter

21     because there is a lot of administration, you know, that would be thrown

22     aside, and you would focus specifically on the combat arms training.

23        Q.   In any event, to do this job proficiently, it would still take a

24     significant period of time?

25        A.   Agreed, yes, sir.

Page 4503

 1        Q.   Now, you knew that General Gotovina was an operational commander

 2     during this -- during the time-frame that you were in Sector South; is

 3     that right?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   And I think you talked to us about the -- sorry.

 6             You talked to us about the operation in Bosanski Grahovo, as well

 7     as Operation Storm.  Now, you noted on page 18 of your presentation at

 8     the top of the page, if you can, that Operation Storm, it says, "Let me

 9     now turn to the Croatian offensive nicknamed Operation Storm.  The

10     operation was the culmination of months of planning and preliminary

11     moves."

12             Now, generally, General, an operation such as that, based on your

13     experience, would take months and months of planning for an operational

14     commander to set up and execute, wouldn't it?

15        A.   It would take a couple of months, yes.

16        Q.   And given the fact that the HV was moving up the Dinara, going

17     into Operation Storm, and then continuing activities into Bosnia after

18     Operation Storm, General Gotovina was planning and participating in a

19     series of offensive reactions that went on for a significant period of

20     time, didn't it?

21        A.   I don't know.  He did not convey to me, you know, his plan.

22        Q.   Well, based on what you learn, you did learn -- when you were in

23     Sector South, you learned that there were significant offensives going up

24     until just about the time you left in Operation Maestral in September,

25     wasn't there?

Page 4504

 1        A.   Well, I was aware that it was ongoing, but I must say that I was

 2     not paying particular attention.

 3        Q.   During all of that, based on your experience, an operational

 4     commander would have by the very fact of being an operational commander

 5     involved in significant activities, planning, and executing any such

 6     offensives, wouldn't he?

 7        A.   If he is the one commanding, he better be involved, yes.

 8        Q.   Now, General, in your 1990 -- by the way, you noted for us,

 9     during the course of your testimony on direct examination, that I think

10     your last meeting with General Gotovina was September the 5th; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes, sir.

13        Q.   And after Operation Storm, it was the meeting on the 8th and

14     September the 5th, and that's the only time you met with him?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   And during that other period of time, did you know that he was

17     involved in ongoing military activities against the Bosnian Serbs and the

18     Krajina Serbs?

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   Now, in your statement -- and I'm turning now to your 1997

21     statement, which I believe is P331.  On line 1, General, you note that:

22     "If you're a good military organisation, there is no reason why you're

23     not able to control your soldiers."

24        A.   Which page are you looking at?

25        Q.   I'm looking at page 15 of your presentation -- excuse me, of

Page 4505

 1     your --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We are now in P331, page 15, line 1.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Got it, sir.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   You note there that:  "If you're a good military organisation,

 6     there is no reason why you're not able to control your soldiers."

 7             Now, that's not what you observed on the ground; isn't that

 8     right?

 9        A.   What do you mean?

10        Q.   Well, you didn't observe people in uniform that appeared to be

11     under control.

12        A.   Well, you've got to go further than the first line because my

13     reflection of that is what I was seeing the looting and the burning.  And

14     to me, it was a lack of control because it carried on, you know, for

15     almost a month.

16        Q.   That's exactly what I was saying.  These people in uniform, you

17     perceive, not to be under control?

18        A.   Yes, sir.

19        Q.   Now, if I could turn your attention --

20             MR. KEHOE:  And if I could go back to 1D28-0151, which is the red

21     line, and if I could turn to page 16 of that document.

22        Q.   Now, let's look at the bottom of that first paragraph when you're

23     talking about burning and looting.

24             Do you see the sentence, "Nevertheless ..."

25        A.   Yes, I is see it, yes, sir.

Page 4506

 1        Q.   "Nevertheless, in these towns, specific houses and buildings were

 2     burnt, and looting was rampant.  There was no apparent method to the,"

 3     and you had written in your statement "to the destruction."

 4             Now, you didn't see any methodology behind that, did you, sir?

 5        A.   Methodology for?

 6        Q.   Just any methodology that would give some rationale to this type

 7     of destruction, did you?

 8             Well, let me help you out a little bit.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Let me turn to 1D28-0007.

10        Q.   This is a document that discusses -- this is an interview you

11     gave to Globus Magazine, and if we go to the last page of that document.

12     This is an article that is dated 12 March 2004.

13             In this question under the title, There was no criminal plan:

14     "In the indictment against the Croatian generals accused based on command

15     responsibility for crimes committed during and after Operation Storm, it

16     is stated they were part of a criminal enterprise; that is, that this was

17     a planned operation intend today kill people.  Do you agree with these

18     theories?"

19              "I would never say that there was any form of order that existed

20     concerning a criminal plan or an idea whose purpose would be to murder

21     civilians.  Definitely not.  As I said earlier, approximately 2.000

22     people remained in this area at the time I left Croatia.  In my opinion,

23     they were isolated cases because no form of order had been established,

24     nor were those individuals who had committed crimes punished quickly.  It

25     is customary in the country I come from that commanders are responsible

Page 4507

 1     for the people subordinate to them."

 2             Now, General, consistent with this article, the crimes that you

 3     saw or observed or were being reported to, it is a fact that there was no

 4     form or order to that or planning to that, was there?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  That seems to be conflating

 6     a number of different issues.  This refers to murders of civilians, one,

 7     something specific; and now it's being broadened to include everything?

 8             MR. KEHOE:  That's exactly right.  I'm broadening the question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, what you're actually doing is you're

10     asking, if you read also the last couple of lines where the choice of

11     this witness, that 7(3) would be more applicable than joint criminal

12     enterprise under 7(1), is a right choice.

13             That's actually what it comes down to.  He's given joint criminal

14     enterprise -- criminal enterprise.  I don't know whether the witness has

15     full understanding of what that means in legal terms.  He explains

16     that -- you didn't read the last two lines as far as Mr. Cermak is

17     concerned, but he makes a reference to what appears to be superior

18     responsibility.  I don't know whether it's of great use to ask these

19     kinds of things where the witness mainly, of course, came to testify and

20     whatever was said in the interview.

21             I do not oppose against asking, but I'm just drawing your

22     attention to what the exercise comes down to at this moment.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I am aware that it's a two-pronged part

24     of this, and there is a crime against humanity charged, where there is a

25     widespread and systematic attack on the civilian population with the

Page 4508

 1     approval of the state.  So taking a question to the General that he

 2     didn't perceive that there was some criminal plan, but rather there was a

 3     lack of punishment and accountability on the 7(3) end, I thought and

 4     believe it was relevant for the Chamber to know as a person who was in

 5     the theatre.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It requires a lot of legal skills to make such a

 7     judgement.  If you consider it important, then it's your cross

 8     examination.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I just note in the actual sitreps,

11     itself, it uses term "the widespread and systematic" on the 7(1) line.  I

12     am attempting to address that through General Forand who was the sector

13     commander.

14        Q.   Let's us move on, General.  During the course of your time in

15     Sector South, were you aware that General Gotovina had both professional

16     brigades and conscripts under his command?

17        A.   I'm trying to remember.  Somebody must have mentioned to me, that

18     it was not all professional army, yes, sir.

19        Q.   Were you aware of the specific units under his command?

20        A.   No, sir.  Well, I don't recall.  I know that in my presentation,

21     there's a certain numbers of unit that were put in my presentation, but

22     I'm not aware fully, you know, about what he had under his command.

23        Q.   You're not familiar with that command structure in the HV?

24        A.   No, sir.

25        Q.   Now, likewise, when people were wearing uniforms, I mean, some of

Page 4509

 1     them were on duty and some of them were off duty, weren't they?

 2        A.   The only one I observed when I went out of the camp, you know,

 3     were those that I met in towns on the route where I was going, and they

 4     were all armed.  I don't remember seeing soldiers that were not armed.

 5        Q.   But you don't know, even if they had an arm, if they were on duty

 6     or off duty?

 7        A.   No, sir.

 8        Q.   And, likewise, you don't know if they had been, for instance,

 9     demobilised already?

10        A.   No idea, sir.

11        Q.   And you wouldn't know if these individuals that you observed were

12     just civilians wearing camouflage or fatigue clothing?

13        A.   No idea either, sir.

14        Q.   Now you noted in your statement in 1997 if you had come across

15     these problems -- and I'm talking about page 20 of 331.  You note what

16     you're talking about, and this is seeing these types of activities,

17     crimes.

18             General, I'm not quibbling with you that crimes took place.  I'm

19     not saying that at all.  I'm just saying what your statement on line 3

20     is:  "My reaction would have been simple.  I'd bring into my office

21     whoever I had under me, my Chief of Staff or the unit commander

22     responsible in that particular area; tell him to investigate; and to

23     report as soon as possible; and put on my desk; and come and explain to

24     me exactly what happened."

25             Now, on that score, General, had you observed this for soldiers

Page 4510

 1     under your command, you would have issued orders, wouldn't you?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   And you, General, you would have yelled at people giving them an

 4     order to do their job, wouldn't you?

 5        A.   I don't have to yell to give orders, sir.

 6        Q.   You would firmly give your orders, telling people to do their

 7     job, wouldn't you?

 8        A.   You better believe it, yes, sir.

 9        Q.   And if this was going on, you would cease your -- have your

10     subordinates cease this activity, wouldn't you?

11        A.   You better believe it, yes, sir.

12        Q.   And to the extent that you had problematic troops, you would have

13     tried to take steps to, for instance, demobilise some of those troops,

14     wouldn't you?

15        A.   If they were creating problems, yeah, that would be one way to do

16     it.  I don't think I would have had that authority to demobilise those

17     people, but I would have tried to put them in an area where they would

18     not create problems, yes, sir.

19        Q.   You certainly would have made a suggestion?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, okay.  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Was I successful in encouraging you, Mr. Kehoe?

23             MR. KEHOE:  You were very successful, and I am minutes away from

24     ending.  If we can just take --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If so, then the answer is I was not successful.

Page 4511

 1             MR. KEHOE:  You were very successful.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a break now.  We will continue later.

 3     I think it is at - I got a message - 3.00, Mr. Registrar, in this same

 4     courtroom.

 5             We'll have a break.  We will resume at 3.00 in this same

 6     courtroom.

 7                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.47.

 8                           --- On resuming at 3.03 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, I take it that the case is there's no

10     need to call the case again because it's just for lunch break.

11             Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   General, we left off on questions about demobilisation, and you

16     said that you didn't know if you had the authority for that, "but I would

17     have tried to put them in an area where they would not create problems."

18             Just taking off from that, sir, in addition to that, you would

19     urge, for instance, the military police to do their job as well, wouldn't

20     you?

21        A.   Yes -- no.

22        Q.   Would you say that again?

23        A.   Well, I don't know who would be the military -- the military

24     police has a certain role to play, but commander at every level also has

25     a responsibility within his own area.

Page 4512

 1        Q.   But as I said in my question, you would urge the military police

 2     to do their job as well?

 3        A.   That would be one of the organisations that I would ask to do

 4     their job, for sure.

 5        Q.   And General, you -- taking the lead from answers that you gave to

 6     my colleague Mr. Kay, you don't know the measures that General Gotovina

 7     took during this time, do you?

 8        A.   No, sir.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  General, thank you very much.  You have been very

10     helpful, and I appreciate it.  I'm sorry to have kept you here so long.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have some outstanding exhibits.

13     Can I just offer those into evidence right now, just to clear them up.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then at least we know what is tendered.  But I

15     perhaps already make one observation about this morning, and I'm

16     addressing you, Mr. Mikulicic, because it was an exhibit from

17     Mr. Kuzmanovic who was then assisted by the Prosecution that it would be

18     P104.  I find P104 to be a two-page document; whereas, we were talking

19     about a document of seven pages.  So I have serious doubts.  It could be

20     that it's part of P104 -- no couldn't be because it's longer.  So,

21     therefore, I hope you still remember what it was.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  We will try to go through that matter in the

23     break, Your Honour.

24                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  My legal officer thinks from the top of his head

Page 4513

 1     that it was 65 ter 411.  Well, I don't know; but if you would search in

 2     the transcript for P104, then you will see that, immediately prior to

 3     that, it is introduced.

 4             Mr. Kehoe, we have quite a lot of documents, if you give the

 5     numbers.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps also describe them briefly because they

 8     slipped out of my mind as far as --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  The first is 1D25-0098.  It's a cable from Mr. Akashi

10     to Mr. Annan, dated 4 August 1995, and it's entitled, Your Honour,

11     "Update on the current situation in Croatia."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not yet in evidence somewhere?

13             MR. KEHOE:  Our records show that it is not.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, cable, 4th of August.

15             Mr. Tieger, any objection.

16             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D337.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D337 is admitted into evidence; and, nevertheless,

20     the parties are invited to check whether --  it sounded rather familiar

21     to me.

22             Next one, Mr. Kehoe.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, the next is an excerpt from Phillip

24     Berikoff's diary, covering dates 30 July to 3 August, 1D28-0019.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

Page 4514

 1             MR. TIEGER:  It's a slightly odd situation in that we've had

 2     relatively similar circumstances; however, Mr. Berikoff will be coming to

 3     testify --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have had this before; however, this is not

 5     a statement.  At that time, we were talking about the statement.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Right.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think it can be admitted into evidence at

 8     least.  We could consider to admit it into evidence; and, nevertheless,

 9     put it to Mr. Berikoff if he appears as a witness.

10             MR. TIEGER:  That's fine, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes D338.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D338 is admitted into evidence.

14             Mr. Kehoe, if you would start with the number, then I know where

15     to write.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  The next is 1D28-0151.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that's?

18             MR. KEHOE:  That's the red line comparison.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the red line comparison.  Yes.  Well, I can't

20     imagine that there's any objections against that, so, Mr. Registrar, that

21     would be?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D339, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D339 is admitted into evidence.

24             Next one.

25             MR. KEHOE:  The next is 1D28-0113.  This is the excerpt from

Page 4515

 1     Milisav Sekulic's book "Knin fell in Belgrade," page 172, 1173.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour, no objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D340, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D340 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Next one.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Next is 1D28-0174.  This is General Forand's map of

 9     Maljkovo from his presentation of 24 June 1996.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  No objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D341, Your Honours.

14             MR. KEHOE:  The next is 1D28 --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D341 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

17             The next is 1D28-0173, the map of Vrlika and Maljkovo.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection, I take it, Mr. Tieger?

19             Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D342, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D342 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. KEHOE:  The next, Your Honour, is 1D28-0017.  That's a cable

23     from General Janvier to Kofi Annan, dated 5 August 1995.  Subject was

24     "UN prisoners and other matters."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objection?

Page 4516

 1             Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D343, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D343 is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  The next, Your Honour, is 1D28-0001.  This is a coded

 5     cable from the United States, "Balkan Crisis:  Croatian offensive

 6     operations continue," dated 5 August 1995.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 8             Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D344, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D344 -- now, there's one remaining, I take it,

11     Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Two.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Two.  But before we are going to choose new numbers,

14     you said that the 24th of June 1996 presentation of Mr. Forand, you asked

15     that to be admitted?

16             MR. KEHOE:  There was a map in there, Judge.  The actual

17     presentation was admitted already.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. KEHOE:  I believe that's 401.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, 401, yes.  I was just wondering.  It's a map.

21             MR. KEHOE:  This was a map that was annexed.  If you go through

22     it Judge, there are --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are a lot of slides.  Now I remember

24     that.  So that's one of these.

25             The next one would be.

Page 4517

 1             MR. KEHOE:  1D17-0106.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  That's the recommendation and nomination for

 4     meritorious service to -- for Colonel Leslie.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not tendered, because we discussed this

 6     document during the testimony of Mr. Leslie, but apparently it was not --

 7             MR. KEHOE:  It was not tendered.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Not tendered.  Now it is.  Oh, yes.  He said he had

 9     seen it only on the day of the ceremony.

10             Mr. Tieger, no objections?

11             MR. TIEGER:  No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D345.

14             MR. KEHOE:  And the last item is 1D28-0007.  It's the Globus

15     article.

16             MR. TIEGER:  No objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.

18             Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D346, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D346 is admitted into evidence.

21             Mr. Forand, we have to do some bookkeeping now and then.

22             Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may I just interject, and I'm sorry to

24     bring up bookkeeping.  Unfortunately, I have arranged for this afternoon,

25     I'm unable to be here for the full session but until 3.30.  But there

Page 4518

 1     were a number of issues concerning exhibits arising in the Cermak Defence

 2     case to be raised.  Your Honour will recollect that there were the

 3     collection of letters.  They've been uploaded into e-court, and we

 4     suggest as a collective.  Although they duplicate exhibits he elsewhere,

 5     it would be much more efficient to have it in a -- that document as a

 6     collective with a single exhibit number with the Court's leave.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will consider that together with

 8     Mr. Registrar because there are all kinds of technical elements involved

 9     there.  But, first of all, even if it's uploaded on to e-court, before

10     any decision could be taken on it, the Chamber, of course, would like to

11     have a look at it.

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber even, and this may serve as guidance for

14     the parties in the future, if we get these collections of documents

15     during a cross-examination, which we encouraged, so therefore there's no

16     one to blame for that, to receive that as soon as possible, because it is

17     relevant evidence in relation to the testimony of the witness.  And if

18     the Chamber would have any questions to ask about that to the witness,

19     the same, of course, would be true for the Prosecution, then it's good to

20     have it as early as possible.

21             So if such documents are tendered from the bar table, rather to

22     have the full set available at the beginning of the cross-examination of

23     that witness.

24             MR. KAY:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 4519

 1             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, there were also the collectives arising

 2     from my cross-examination of the witness.  Those have all been uploaded

 3     into e-court, as the Court knows.  Hard copies have been distributed, and

 4     there are also tables which identify the documents in schedule form to

 5     assist the Court.  These come across from the bar table.

 6             Your Honour knows that there was a considerable amount of

 7     documentation, and our suggestion to the Court is rather in the same way

 8     the Court dealt with the Prosecution substantial number of exhibits.

 9     Mr. Monkhouse released a schedule later on in the day whereby he

10     identified Court exhibit numbers, so that procedure would be applied to

11     these subjects.  And they are identified within these bundles according

12     to the subject matter.

13             Your Honours may recollect I identified each subject matter as a

14     heading before I went into it to alert the Court to the issue.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll deal with that.  We'll digest that

16     slowly.  There's no way of doing that right away.

17             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  I raise it now because,

18     unfortunately, I have to go for other reasons.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.

20             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Tieger, are you ready to re-examine the

22     witness?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Tieger:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, General Forand.  I now have the opportunity to

Page 4520

 1     raise briefly with you some of the matters that were touched upon during

 2     cross-examination.  The first one that I'd like to address concerns an

 3     issue that was raised by Mr. Kay, and that is your first meeting with

 4     General Gotovina on August 8th.

 5             And you were questioned about that beginning, for the benefit of

 6     my colleagues and perhaps you'll want a chance to look at that portion of

 7     the transcript as well, at page 4199.

 8             Actually, excuse me, beginning -- I think the questioning began

 9     earlier at about 4198.

10             But at page 4199, you were -- or it was suggested to you that:

11     "In fact, when you were interviewed in 1996, 1997, 1998 -- 1999, sorry,

12     you never mentioned that you went to see General Gotovina on the 8th of

13     August and discussed crimes being committed at that meeting."

14             Subsequently, there was a discussion about the fact that that was

15     raised or that meeting was discussed in your 2008 statement, which is

16     Exhibit P333.

17             And Mr. Kay asked you at page 4203:  "How did it come about that

18     you recalled it here in 2008, 12 years later, and didn't recall it

19     earlier?"

20             Then he asked you or suggested to you that the discussion or

21     the -- that took place at that meeting might have been something that was

22     suggested to you.  He asked whether that was suggested to you by anyone.

23     You indicated no.

24             I'd just like to actually look at your earlier statements to see

25     when you first raised what was discussed at your first meeting with

Page 4521

 1     General Gotovina after Operation Storm.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection, could we look, please, at

 3     P331, the 1997 statement at page 18.

 4        Q.   You see that, General?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   And at page 18, you indicate that you had two official meetings

 7     after the war with General Gotovina.  And you state at page 18:  "On the

 8     first one, he clearly was elated and boasted about the Croat military

 9     success.  I explained my lack of freedom of the movement.  He mentioned

10     he would look into it.  I also complained about the lack of discipline of

11     his troops, the looting and arson taking place, and the indiscriminate

12     shooting of weapons at all times of day."

13             Then you go on to discuss the second meeting.  That was your

14     statement in June of 1997; correct?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   And, then, is it correct that later in 2008 [sic], at

17     paragraph 7, you corrected the date of that meeting, indicating that in

18     the 1997 statement, you had mentioned this meeting, indicating that it

19     took place around the 12th or 13th of August.  And now after reviewing

20     the UNCRO sitreps, you wanted to correct that to indicate that the

21     meeting actually took place on August the 8th?

22        A.   Yes, sir.

23        Q.   Let me turn next, General, to an issue that was raised by Mr. Kay

24     as well.  That's the meeting of 24th of August, 1995 involving you,

25     General Cermak, and Mr. Al-Alfi.  And there was some discussion at pages

Page 4522

 1     4227, 4228, and so on, about the discussion concerning area or area of

 2     responsibility.  You recall that discussion or the questions you were

 3     asked by Mr. Kay.

 4             If I may, you referred -- Mr. Kay indicated to you in a document

 5     during your examination-in-chief to General Cermak, indicating that his

 6     area of responsibility as being vast.  Then Mr. Kay turned your attention

 7     to Mr. Al-Alfi's report of the same meeting, in which Mr. Al-Alfi

 8     recorded:  "In his opinion, the area is very vast and he would be lying

 9     if he told us," "he" meaning General Cermak, "nothing of the sort would

10     continue to happen."

11             And it goes on to referring to the issuing of orders.  Then you

12     were asked about the distinction between -- the potential distinction

13     between area and area of responsibility.

14             Now, in using the term "area of responsibility," General, were

15     you attempting to convey the geographic borders of -- in which General

16     Cermak was believed by you to be responsible and for events that were

17     occurring?

18        A.   To me, from my point of view, sir, it encompassed all of my

19     sector.

20        Q.   In light of your understanding that it was his area of

21     responsibility, were you bringing to his attention crimes that were

22     taking place in -- for the purpose of having him address those crimes?

23        A.   That is the only individual that had been identified to me as

24     responsible within my area of responsibility, yes, sir.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Can we look at D151, quickly, please.  Can we go to

Page 4523

 1     the next page.

 2        Q.   Looking at paragraph 5 toward the bottom of the page, which is

 3     Mr. Al-Alfi's report, we see the reference I just mentioned a moment ago;

 4     that is:  "General Cermak making clear that in his opinion, the area is

 5     very vast," et cetera.

 6             If I could ask you, General, to turn your attention to the first

 7     sentence of that paragraph, which indicates:  "We brought the

 8     continuation of burning houses and looting in the area to the attention

 9     of General Cermak and asked him to stop such acts.  He accepted this

10     fact, regarding the continuation of such incidents, and attributed them

11     to 'persons who entered the area wearing HV uniforms and to civilians

12     taking revenge.'"

13             General, is that your recollection -- let me ask you:  Is the

14     reference by Mr. Al-Alfi to asking General Cermak to stop such acts where

15     houses were being burned and looting was taking place consistent with

16     your position as indicated in your sitrep that that encompassed his area

17     of responsibility?

18        A.   Yes, sir.

19        Q.   General, can I turn you next to a matter that was also raised by

20     Mr. Kay.  I'm trying to get to his matters before he has to leave, and

21     those were matters concerning the restrictions on movement and the

22     documents prepared by General Plestina in connection with that.

23             I believe Mr. Kay put to you, at page 4322, that General Plestina

24     was controlling the issue of freedom of movement between UNCRO, the UN,

25     and the Croatian army, and you said you didn't know that.  There was

Page 4524

 1     further discussion about that; and a line or two later or two or lines

 2     later, you indicated you don't letter whether he was in charge of

 3     controlling the issue.  Then there was some further discussion about some

 4     reports by General Plestina.  I'd just like to look at those reports very

 5     quickly.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  If we could call up D319.  Okay.

 7        Q.   This was shown to you during the course of that discussion,

 8     General.  It's a daily report spanning the period 6th of August, 1995

 9     until the 7th of August, 1995 to 800 hours.

10             It indicates, among other things, that:  "Our liaison officer,"

11     those are General Plestina's words, explained to you that UNCRO has

12     complete freedom of movement regarding supply of the units on the field,

13     "but that there is no need for their patrols, observations from their

14     observation points, and reports on breaching the Zagreb agreement, since

15     the situation at the moment is such that the higher authorities will

16     decide on the potential new UNCRO task."

17             It's correct, is isn't it, General, that by August 7th, 1995, the

18     agreement between Mr. Sarinic and Mr. Akashi had been reached?  Is that

19     right?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   And in paragraphs 4 and 5, that addressed issues of access by

22     UNCRO to the civilian population for the purpose of providing

23     humanitarian needs and also access to all areas for the purpose of

24     carrying out surveillance, except where in the opinion of the local UNCRO

25     military commanders, after consultation with Croatian army commanders,

Page 4525

 1     that the security situation doesn't permit for such surveillance; is that

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.

 4        Q.   And I didn't see, and I take it you did not see in this 6 to 7

 5     August report, any reference to the is Sarinic-Akashi agreement?

 6        A.   You mean, the letter from General Plestina?  The first time I saw

 7     it was when it was shown to me yesterday or the day before.

 8        Q.   You were also shown a report from the next day.  That's D320, and

 9     that was a daily report from 7 August to 8 August.  Again, 8 August, as

10     you indicated -- well, let me just pause there.

11             I can show you that document.  But having reviewed it and with

12     the permission of my colleagues, I take it you don't recall seeing any

13     reference to the Akashi-Sarinic agreement here either?

14        A.   No, sir.

15        Q.   Do you recall it was on August 8th that you received the first

16     freedom of movement letter that was used as a pass from General Cermak?

17        A.   Yeah, covering the Knin and the Drnis area, yes, sir.

18        Q.   And do you recall that document was copied to two people who were

19     General Gotovina and to Mr. Reljic?

20        A.   I remember well it was at the bottom, yes, sir.

21        Q.   And you further recall there was no copy sent to General

22     Plestina?

23        A.   No.  It was not on the sheet of paper, no.

24        Q.   You testified at some length, in your examination-in-chief, about

25     the restrictions of movement that arose during the course of August and

Page 4526

 1     September, and your dealings with General Cermak in connection with those

 2     restrictions of movement.

 3             Did General Cermak ever indicate to you in any way that he was

 4     consulting with or waiting for instructions from General Plestina in

 5     connection with those -- with your complaints about restrictions of

 6     movement?

 7        A.   Not that I remember, sir.

 8        Q.   And did you have any indication from General Cermak at all that

 9     he was beholden to or a conduit for General Plestina?

10        A.   With General Plestina, no, sir.

11        Q.   Might we take up a matter that was raised this -- earlier today,

12     in fact quite recently.  That was at page, I think, 92 of the current

13     transcript.  That was regarding information on a sitrep from the head of

14     the military police on, I think, August 6th, with Mr. Hill, in a document

15     that is P351.

16             Now, you testified, in your examination-in-chief at page 4129,

17     about the fact that Captain Hill was allowed to go out of the compound.

18             And the question was:  "And what was it you learned from Captain

19     Hill after he went out?

20             Your answer was:  "Well, he went out and I had asked him, you

21     know, to have a look about the extent of the damage and what was taking

22     place, you know, within Knin.  And he came back and he reported to me in

23     the afternoon, I think around 4.00, that he had seen extensive damage,

24     that he had seen looting.  He went to the apartment that I had

25     occupied ..." --

Page 4527

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I object.  This is not

 2     redirect examination.  What he said and what I put to him was the sitrep

 3     that the Prosecution put into evidence, but that's not in there.  It's

 4     not redirect rereading the witness' testimony two days ago.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I'm just about to turn it to the sitrep, Your

 6     Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just --

 8             MR. KEHOE:  If the point is one of the discussion of the

 9     nuances --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I have not heard any question yet.  I think that for

11     one reason or another, Mr. Tieger takes the witness back to what he said

12     in his examination-in-chief.  I don't know to what extent that's

13     necessary, Mr. Tieger, to put the question to the witness.  I see the

14     point.  Sometimes, you need to take a witness back to a certain portion

15     of his --

16             If Mr. Kay would have one second.  Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay, could you

17     wait, if you would, for a second.  I'll first deal with this.

18             Sometimes, it's necessary.  Sometimes it is, well, established

19     practice to bring back to the mind of a witness what he said before, for

20     whatever reason.  I leave that open at this moment.  If you can do

21     without, that's preferred.  So, therefore, the witness might have

22     forgotten now already about what has been said.

23             But since Mr. Kay is leaving and apparently has commitments

24     elsewhere.

25             Mr. Kay, I will at the end ask one question to the witness which

Page 4528

 1     might be of specific importance to you, which is whether the area, you

 2     remember the area of responsibility, or just the area, as we find it in

 3     the report by Mr. Al-Alfi, that the area is written with capital A;

 4     whereas, at any earlier stage in that report, we find references to the

 5     Knin area.  It's again written with -- does that have any meaning for you

 6     in reading that?

 7             THE WITNESS:  That it has a capital A, Your Honour?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             THE WITNESS:  For me, I always use the term "area of

10     responsibility."

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand.  But if you read area with

12     capital A, rather than without a capital, would that in this context mean

13     anything to you?

14             THE WITNESS:  I don't remember, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't remember.

16             Mr. Kay, since you raised the issue, I thought I would deal with

17     it before you --

18             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... very grateful, Your Honour.

19     With my apologies, I leave the court.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't want to emphasise you leaving the court.

21             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Thanks, Your Honour.

24        Q.   General, the P351 is now in front of you, the first page, and we

25     can, if necessary, go to the portion that was discussed earlier today.

Page 4529

 1     That's further on in the sitrep, but I'm wondering if you can tell me

 2     what time this sitrep was prepared?

 3        A.   It was sent at 1300, so it must have been prepared maybe 45

 4     minutes to an hour before that.

 5        Q.   And so this, sitrep therefore, was prepared before you had spoken

 6     with Captain Hill on that day after he returned from his trip into Knin?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   I wanted to turn quickly to the 1996 statement.  That's P330, I

 9     believe.  And the presentation you prepared, I just had a couple of quick

10     questions about that, General.

11             MR. TIEGER:  And perhaps it's more probably preferable if I turn

12     to P401 first.  Sorry, Mr. Registrar.

13        Q.   I just bring you to two quick references, hopefully, as examples.

14     First, page 23.

15             And if we look at the bottom paragraph of page 23, the third

16     sentence:  "General Mrksic was not there, but I met his Chief of Staff

17     and five RSK ministers.  They appeared totally confused and were mostly

18     incoherent in their discussion or comments."

19             MR. TIEGER:  Perhaps, before leaving that document, we can turn

20     quickly to page 34.  Somehow we seem to have jumped from 33 to 35.

21     Thanks.

22        Q.   In the third -- well, the second sentence, you indicate:  "I must

23     give credit to the initiative of my sector ..." --

24             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Counsel.  I apologise.  Is it 33 or 35?

25             MR. TIEGER:  This one is 34.

Page 4530

 1        Q.   You indicate:  "I must give credit to the initiative of my sector

 2     civil administrative officer, Mr. Harry Hoey; my staff; and troops for

 3     successfully managing and accommodating these refugees for an extended

 4     time."

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Now, if we could turn back to P330, and first to

 6     page 5.

 7        Q.   Again, there's a reference to General Mrksic, Chief of Staff, and

 8     five RSK ministers.  They appeared totally confused and in panic.

 9             There, in contrast to your presentation, is the phrase, "I don't

10     know their names."

11             MR. TIEGER:  And, again, if we could turn quickly to page 11.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Of 330, Counsel?

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

14        Q.   There is a reference at the top to, again, to Harry Hoey again,

15     the same reference that appears in the presentation, and then the added

16     sentence:  "Mr. Hoey is a British UN civilian employee, and I think he is

17     now in Sector East."

18             Now, General, I take it that you provided that information to the

19     investigators; that is, the information that you did not know the names

20     of the Mrksic's Chief of Staff and the five RSK ministers, and the

21     information that Mr. Hoey, who was a British UN is civilian employee and

22     who you thought was then in Sector East.  Correct?

23        A.   I think that when I say "now," that was at the time that I was

24     speaking to those people, because when I left, he was leaving, I think,

25     to go to Sector East.

Page 4531

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   But I didn't knows the -- I don't remember.  I didn't know the

 3     Chief of Staff of the ARSK, nor the five ministers.  I never met them.

 4        Q.   But this would have been information that you would have provided

 5     to the investigators; that is, where Mr. Hoey was and who he was and --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  I object, Your Honour.  I object simply

 7     because at this particular -- shortly before this time, Mr. Robertsson

 8     was in headquarters with UNCRO in Zagreb and know full well where these

 9     people were.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   General, do you --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  I'm just trying to understand

13     what exactly what your problem is, Mr. Kehoe.

14             MR. KEHOE:  My problem is this, Judge:  It goes to the source of

15     this information at this point with regard to the inference that the

16     General, first, if he even recalls at this time was of necessity a source

17     of what happened to Mr. Hoey, is not exactly the full picture, given the

18     fact that the person who was the investigator on 330 is Joakim

19     Robertsson, who during this whole time frame was intimately aware of all

20     these people and was working at UNCRO headquarters in Zagreb.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may answer the question.

22             Mr. Tieger, if you would perhaps put it again to him.

23             The objection is denied.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   General Forand, is this information that you provided to

Page 4532

 1     Mr. Robertsson; that is, the fact that you didn't know the names of

 2     General Mrksic's Chief of Staff and the five RSK ministers who were at

 3     the meeting and Mr. Hoey's position and whereabouts?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   Is that how the process went, that you and Mr. Robertsson would

 6     talk and he'd ask questions and you'd provide answers --

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I would object to leading.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, could you put the question in a less

 9     leading way.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   How did Mr. Robertsson get this information?

12        A.   He was asking me questions, and I was answering them, sir.

13        Q.   And, ultimately, were you provided with this statement which you

14     reviewed and then signed?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   General, you were asked some questions, I believe yesterday, by

17     Mr. Kehoe, concerning shelling - this would be at pages 43,45 through 46,

18     approximately - about the shelling of Strmica by HV forces, about

19     civilians in the area.  Then you were referred to an excerpt concerning a

20     trip by Colonel Tymchuk to Strmica in late July, in which it was noted

21     that:  "There were no civilians evident in Strmica."

22             And Mr. Kehoe asked you, at page 4346, if you knew when the

23     civilians that had been in Strmica had left, and you indicated no.

24             I'd like to ask you if you know why the civilians from Strmica

25     had left by late July?

Page 4533

 1        A.   No, sir, I don't know.

 2        Q.   General, you indicated that when you arrive - and I believe this

 3     is a discussion that took place at about 4348 - you had been briefed that

 4     there were certain defensive positions in place.  You had been briefed by

 5     that by your personnel travelling through the area, and I'm referring to

 6     defensive positions by the ARSK, although you hadn't seen those defensive

 7     positions yourself.

 8             Were any of those defensive positions in Knin itself, or were

 9     they elsewhere in the is sector, according to the people who briefed you?

10        A.   I was, if I remember well, I was told there was no defensive

11     position prepared in Knin, and I didn't see any.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  When we are talking about Knin, may I take it that

13     we're talking about the city of Knin, not the municipality.

14             THE WITNESS:  The city, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TIEGER:

18        Q.   And I know that toward the end of the day today, and to some

19     extent yesterday, you were asked some questions about orders in

20     connection with crimes that were taking place and whether you were

21     familiar with some orders that appear to have been reflected in documents

22     you were shown.  Do you recall that?

23        A.   Documents coming from who, sir?

24        Q.   The documents that you were shown to you both by -- well, by

25     Mr. Kay, I believe, yesterday, and --

Page 4534

 1        A.   Yeah, I remember those documents, yes, sir.

 2        Q.   I wanted to ask you if you saw any reflection or any indication

 3     on the ground that orders to stop the crimes that were taking place had

 4     been given.  Did you see a cessation or curtailment of the crimes as --

 5     in August and early is September?

 6        A.   No.  And I think you can see that in the letter that I was

 7     sending to General Cermak that it was still ongoing.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kehoe asked you, before the very end of the day, about

 9     whether or not you knew of orders -- of what orders General Gotovina

10     might have given; and you were, of course, asked yesterday about orders

11     as well.

12             And you were, to some extent, about other aspects of what a

13     commander might or might not do, and I wanted to ask you this question

14     basically, and that is:  If orders such as the type that you had seen

15     were given, and the crimes continued, is that sufficient action by a

16     commander?

17             MR. KEHOE:  I object, Judge.  I mean --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You're asking for a legal opinion, Mr. Tieger, I

19     take it.  At least the way in which I understand the question, you're

20     asking for a legal opinion.  If there's any factual matter in it or if

21     you ask him what he was taught at military academy, that's a different

22     matter.  Then whether it's right, what was taught to him, is still to be

23     seen.

24             If you would please, so the objection is --

25             MR. TIEGER:  Certainly, Your Honour.  Okay.

Page 4535

 1             Mr. Kehoe, I think it's a fair objection.

 2        Q.   And Mr. Kehoe asked you some questions about your military

 3     experience and your position as a commander, and that's the perspective

 4     from which I want to ask that question.

 5             If you, as a commander, give an order, particularly an order to

 6     stop crimes that your troops are committing, what are you expected to do

 7     based on your military experience?

 8        A.   What, I expect that it would be followed.  If it's not followed,

 9     then I would make sure, you know, that whoever is responsible will be

10     removed, and put somebody in place that is able to carry on the order

11     that he has been given, and ensure that whatever has been ongoing, you

12     know, would is stop immediately.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's all I have.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions put in re-examination trigger the

15     need for any further questions?

16             MR. KEHOE:  Just very briefly, Your Honour.

17                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

18        Q.   You were asked a question about P351, and we don't need to bring

19     it up on the screen.  That is the sitrep of 1300 hours, where it was

20     referred to Captain Hill's trip, where there is the discussion of what --

21     it says:  "What looting there is seems to be related to beer and portable

22     radios."

23             You just testified that, in the afternoon, Captain Hill told you

24     additional information; is that correct?

25        A.   I don't know where that information that was in the sitrep came

Page 4536

 1     from.  All I said was that this sitrep was prepared around 11.15 or

 2     11.00, and the only time I spoke to Captain Hill was in the afternoon.

 3        Q.   Can I just --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Let's just bring it up, then.  Exhibit 351.

 5        Q.   Now, this is a sitrep of 1300 at 06 -- excuse me, on the 6th of

 6     August at 1300 hours.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  And if we can just have the commander's assessment -

 8     I'm just trying to get the pagination down - and if we could go two pages

 9     further.

10        Q.   Now, the military policemen, it notes, at 0900 was taken for a

11     two-hour tour of Knin by HV military police:  "Military police and

12     civilian police from Split were evident in numbers and taking control of

13     Knin.  Soldiers were in the streets, and while fighting some were

14     shooting in the air.  There did not seem to be any fighting.  OCMP patrol

15     entered buildings looking for evidence of looting and destruction and

16     found little evidence of ransacking or wanton destruction."

17             Now, that was Captain Hill coming back and talking to you prior

18     to 1300?

19        A.   He didn't talk to me when he came back.  I spoke to him in the

20     afternoon, and this is not the part of the commander's's assessment.

21     That portion where -- even though I signed the whole document, that is

22     the portion that's prepared by the OPs officer.

23        Q.   Well, let us turn to 352, which is later on, on the 6th, at 2030

24     hours.

25             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the last page in section F, which is

Page 4537

 1     the sector commander's is summary.

 2        Q.   Now, 2030 hours, that was after you talked to Hill; isn't that

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   Now, in paragraph F, you note that:  "More civilians including

 6     cars with Split licence plates are seen in Knin, and a sense of normalcy

 7     is returning."

 8             Now, "a sense of normalcy," there's no discussion about looting

 9     and burning during this description of normalcy returning to Knin, is

10     there?

11        A.   According to that, no.

12             MR. KEHOE:  May have one moment, Your Honour.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, thank you very much.

15             General, thank you very much.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions for you.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  General, if I could take you back to your 1996

19     statement, page 10, the second paragraph.  Are you there?

20        A.   Yes, madam.

21             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  You talk there about the burning of building and

22     crops.  I just want you to elaborate on the burning of the crops.  Were

23     these crops in the fields, or were these crops that had been harvested?

24        A.   It's crops, Your Honour, that was in the field itself.  The

25     fields were burned.

Page 4538

 1             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Was this linked to the to what you referred to on

 2     the same page -- or the third paragraph from the bottom of the page,

 3     where you talked about the fact that remote villages and peasant farms

 4     were methodically destroyed, eliminating any means of subsistence and so

 5     on.

 6        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it's the same relation.

 7             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Very well.  Thank you.

 8             If I can also take you back to your 2008 statement, paragraph 8.

 9        A.   Your Honour, I don't have it with my paper here.

10             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  This is P330.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that's P333, if I'm not mistaken.

12             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Yes.  P330, with paragraph 8.  You talked there

13     about General Gotovina acknowledging that the burning and the looting was

14     happening, but indicating that it was something he could not control.

15             Do you recall if he told you why he could not control?

16        A.   No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Very well.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.

19             JUDGE KINIS:  General Forand, I would like to refer back to your

20     statement, P331, and page 18, line 22.

21             You mentioned:  "It seems to me that General Cermak tasks were

22     mostly administrative."  You were a person who was directly on the spot,

23     and so this a real situation.  And what was your impressions about

24     factual authority of Mr. Cermak, whether his orders were issued to stop

25     some criminal activities or allowed you for moment was effective or, in

Page 4539

 1     fact, it was not taken much in account?

 2        A.   Well, obviously, they were not effective.  Every time we met with

 3     General Cermak, as I mentioned earlier, it was very cordial.  And the

 4     problem that we were giving him, you know, as far as burning, looting, he

 5     said, "Okay.  I will do something about it."  But to me, nothing was ever

 6     done because it carried on.

 7             And when I said that he was, for me, like an administrative type,

 8     because when I made that declaration, it was in comparison with General

 9     Gotovina who, to me, was the prototype of a soldier.  And General Cermak

10     was more of a administrator, when you compare a fighter to an

11     administrator.  So it was in that context when I used that term

12     "administrator".

13             JUDGE KINIS:  In fact, your opinion is that his orders were not

14     so effective at that time, and what was the reason?  Did he have

15     authority over police surveillance and remaining military forces in the

16     area, or did he have very short authority, in fact?

17        A.   To me, Your Honour, he was -- at least that was the impression I

18     was getting, when we were speaking to him, that he would do something

19     about it, but nothing was ever done.  So whether he did not have the

20     authority or not, I cannot tell you.  But the only individual with whom I

21     was and Mr. Al-Alfi was dealing with was Mr. Cermak.

22             So, to him, we were presenting what we felt was the situation

23     based on what our people were reporting or what the Humanity Right Action

24     Team in Knin as they were going through their patrol were reporting.

25             JUDGE KINIS:  Thank you very much for your answers, sir.

Page 4540

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Forand, I have one question.  You told us about

 2     one of the refugees in the compound to be your source of knowledge of how

 3     the evacuation order was communicated; that is, through the civil defence

 4     system which existed already traditionally.

 5             Now, do you happen to remember whether this was someone who

 6     learned about evacuation or evacuation orders?

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I think, when you asked the

 8     question before, I think he said plural; the transcript was singular and

 9     then you asked the question.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I did not intend to use the plural, as a matter of

11     fact.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I think Mr. Kehoe is correct.  It's my recollection

13     as well, Your Honour, but you can clarify with the witness.  But I

14     think --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Were there more who told you about it?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do you remember whether these were people from

18     surrounding villages from Knin or from Knin or from other specific towns?

19        A.   I could not tell you exactly, Your Honour, if they were from Knin

20     or other town.  But it was the people that was in the camp, and they came

21     through -- we had four or five translators which were of Serb-Croat

22     origin, so that was one source.  And these translators were also speaking

23     a couple of weeks after the 6th to people that who were already arrived

24     in Serbia, you know, that didn't stay in the Krajina.  And it was

25     confirmed with those people also, but I cannot tell you exactly where

Page 4541

 1     they were coming from.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 3             Judge Kinis put a question to you about the effectiveness of

 4     orders given by Mr. Cermak.

 5             You discussed the matters with him and you said:  "I didn't see

 6     any effect."

 7        A.   Mm-hm.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, there were a lot of stages between discussing

 9     and orders being effective on the ground.  I'd like to go with you

10     through several stages and see whether you could comment on this stage.

11             The first is:  Are you aware of whether what Mr. Cermak said he

12     would do, that he put that in practice?

13        A.   If I'm aware?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you say, I'll do something about it, you

15     can say it, and did you ever learn from anyone, apart from here in the

16     courtroom where you've seen some correspondence and some orders, did you

17     ever learn from other persons, Cermak came to me or Cermak issued this

18     order or anything of the kind, so that there was feedback for you that

19     what Mr. Cermak said he would do was actually done by him.

20        A.   No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever hear from someone, and I'm now moving

22     to the next stage, that he ever received anything in writing in relation

23     to the matters you had discussed with him and where he said he would do

24     something about it?

25        A.   No, Your Honour.

Page 4542

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever receive any feedback from persons who

 2     would say:  We are instructed to do this or we are requested to do this,

 3     but we are going to do things not in accordance with the instructions we

 4     received?

 5        A.   No, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there anything else you could tell us about what

 7     you learned about the implementation, whether positive or negative, the

 8     implementation of what Mr. Cermak said he would do, apart from the

 9     documents we have seen here in court, and there's quite a number of these

10     documents?

11        A.   Nothing to add to what has already been shown, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

13             Have the questions of the Bench raised any or have these

14     triggered any further questions?

15             MR. KEHOE:  Just one brief issue, Your Honour.

16                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

17        Q.   General, there was a question by Judge Gwaunza concerning burning

18     of crops and fields.

19             Now, the burning of the fields is, on some occasions, a demining

20     device, isn't it?

21        A.   It could be, yes, sir.

22        Q.   Now, when they were burning these fields, do you know whether

23     they were looking for mines or not?

24        A.   I don't know that, no, sir.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you.

Page 4543

 1                           Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then in relation to that last one, what they

 3     intended to do at that time, you do not know.  Are you aware of mines

 4     being placed in agricultural fields.

 5        A.   I cannot answer that.  I don't know, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know.

 7        A.   No, sir.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Never any report about a mine that exploded in such

 9     a situation.

10        A.   The only mine that I'm aware that exploded were in the Zone of

11     Separation where we were conducting certain patrol, and that happened in

12     July, sir.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for those answers.

14             Mr. Forand, although late, this concludes your testimony in this

15     court.  And I will change to French which I do understand is your native

16     language.

17             [Interpretation] I would really like to -- when you change to

18     channel 5 -- could you press channel 5.  I'm now speaking French.

19             Mr. Forand, I would like to thank you to have come to The Hague

20     and to have an answer to all the questions asked by the parties and by

21     the Judges of the Bench, and I wish you, although belatedly, a very good

22     return home, a good journey home.

23             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

24     Mr. President.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 4544

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [In English] Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  Maybe we could clear up the question that

 3     you posed on the beginning of the afternoon session regarding the exhibit

 4     number.

 5             You referred to the document that, in fact, has is seven pages.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  And we were talking about a document of two

 8     pages.  In fact, there is a document of seven pages in the electronic

 9     version, and it is P343.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  343.

11             MR. MIKULICIC:  Right.  And the other document which has two

12     pages only, it's P104.  So I believe we are referring to the document

13     with multiple pages, 343.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll check that.  So that means that where it

15     is on the record that the document which was not tendered at that moment,

16     it was not admitted on the is suspicion that it was already in evidence.

17     If it is in evidence, it will not under P104 but under P343.

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  No, no.  That is the other issue.  Mr. Kuzmanovic

19     was tendered the document and he already was given the document D329.

20     But, in fact, that was a P104, so it's one issue.  The other issue is a

21     document with multiple pages, and that is P343.  I think it's a little

22     bit confusing.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes it is.  Just a bit on Friday afternoon, it's

24     getting confused.  Wouldn't it be the best way:  What we are came aiming

25     at, at that time, find out whether the document we dealt with at that

Page 4545

 1     time, whether that still was a need to be admitted into evidence, yes or

 2     no.  We then thought that it would be already in evidence under P104.

 3     Now that seems to be not completely true.  The parties are invited, or

 4     you are invited, Mr. Mikulicic, to communicate in the usual way that is

 5     through inter-parties with a copy to the legal officer, Mr. Nilsson of

 6     this Court, to explain exactly what that document we were then talking

 7     about in court whether that is in evidence; if so, where it is in

 8     evidence and whether it's one exhibit or whether it's part of a larger

 9     exhibit.  Then on Monday we'll know whether there's anything to be done.

10             Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, I didn't want to --

12             Just very quickly, Your Honour, in light of Mr. Kay's earlier

13     comments and the Court's suggestion that the parties alert the Court as

14     quickly as possible to the commission of documents to be tendered across

15     the bar in relation to a witness or testimony.

16             I spoke to my learned friends from the Defence about this,

17     indicated--  I was aware that we'd be receiving documents from Mr. Kay,

18     and I indicated that we'd be tendering some bar table documents as well.

19     So that process is underway.  I just want to indicate that to the Court,

20     and we'll try to perfect it as quickly as we can.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's always to be preferred that if there's

22     any relation between documents tendered from the bar table, even if not

23     shown to the witness, but there is some relation to the content of the

24     testimony of that witness, that they are tendered at the earliest stages,

25     so that at least there is an opportunity to check whether those documents

Page 4546

 1     would trigger the need for any questions either by the other party or by

 2     the Bench to that witness.

 3             This concludes this hearing.  We'll adjourn until Monday, if I'm

 4     not mistaken, the 11th of -- the 10th of June.  Let me just check.  Yes,

 5     I'm trying to move quicker to the recess, apparently.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn until Monday, the 9th of June, 9.00 in

 8     the morning and unfortunately Courtroom II.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.19 p.m.

10                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of June,

11                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.