Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5855

 1                           Monday, 7 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             I was informed, Mr. Kehoe, that you would like to address the

12     Court on a certain matter.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour two brief issues.

14             The first one comes from the summaries I noticed in the filing

15     that the Prosecution made on the summary of the witness's testimony.  On

16     three separate occasions in that summary it is noted that the witness saw

17     dead civilians.  If you examine the actual witness statement, he says

18     civilians and soldiers on those three occasions.  Of course, that is

19     admitting from the summary so I asked my colleague across the well if in

20     fact in his summary to the public it would include civilians and soldiers

21     and of course it doesn't.  It just notes civilians.

22             I'm not sure of what exact purpose of those summaries are, if

23     it's a Prosecutor's version of the facts or an objective assessment of

24     what is in the witness's statements.

25             I don't know if you want to address -- me to move to the next

Page 5856

 1     issue, I will.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  Good morning, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  The statement actually in --the witness's statement

 6     actually says that he saw dead civilians, although some were in uniform.

 7     He doesn't identify specifically soldiers.  He does say that he saw some

 8     of the dead civilians that he saw lying in the streets were wearing

 9     uniforms.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. RUSSO:  I don't see that --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if what is an issue it -- of course, it's a

13     summary but if you then add the three, four, or five words that Mr. Kehoe

14     considers to be relevant it is not evidence.  I mean, the original is

15     evidence, if it would meet the concerns of Mr. Kehoe is there any reason

16     not to --

17             MR. RUSSO:  No, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

19             MR. KEHOE:  The next issue is to do with the actual statement

20     itself, and it goes to the page 7 opinion rendered by Colonel Bellerose

21     and I'm talking about page seven, the first full paragraph after -- the

22     first paragraph to the carry-over paragraph where he gives his opinion

23     the shelling was carried out to drive the civilian population away from

24     Knin because the shelling was not directed at specific military targets.

25     Of course that, is an opinion.

Page 5857

 1             I tried at that talk to my colleague across the we well,

 2     Mr. Russo, to eliminate that and limit it to just what Colonel Bellerose

 3     saw, what he observed during the operative time-frame.  Mr. Russo

 4     declined to take that invitation.  I will say if that testimony is led

 5     during the course of direct examination it will of course compel the

 6     Defence to go through the military target exercise and the lack of

 7     knowledge that this witness had concerned the military targets in the

 8     Knin area.

 9             Frankly, Judge, I know you have called upon us to shorten things

10     and I attempted to do that in this fashion, but I will say that if that

11     goes forward in that fashion I will be forced to meet it in defence of my

12     client.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

14             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  This is certainly an issue

15     that has come up in the past.  I think we have handled it in correctly in

16     the past.  The Court has been quite clear that these opinions standing

17     alone don't count for much.  Of course, the factual basis underlying the

18     opinion, something that would assist the Court in determining what led

19     the witness to come to this assessment, I certainly intend to explore the

20     factual basis underlying that opinion.  We have provided that to the

21     Defence in a supplemental information sheet indicating why the witness

22     came to that opinion.  I think it's something that will assist the Court.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I -- then of course you're fully entitled

24     to explore the matter in cross-examination.  I do not really see the

25     procedural issue, apart from, of course the Chamber would never expect a

Page 5858

 1     part to give up an important matter just for sake of time.  That may be

 2     clear to everyone.

 3             And, as Mr. Russo rightly said, or should I said rightly

 4     understood, that standing alone of course to say this was not against

 5     military targets without laying a proper factual foundation, it might be

 6     one of the core issues in this case.  So, therefore, it certainly needs a

 7     factual basis and if it is there, then of course it is there to be

 8     challenged as well.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  I understand.  I just want to

10     highlight it before I moved into the cross.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Another matter, of course, is how efficient

12     that is done.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Well, that is a double-edged sword because if

14     efficiency calls for us to meet that, which I will do, that is going take

15     some time.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But even then --

17             MR. KEHOE:  I understand.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We don't have to discuss it any further, I think.

19     It is clear that it will take sometime.  It may also be clear that the

20     more efficient way it is done, the less extra time it takes.

21             Mr. Russo, are you ready to call your next witness?

22             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls Joseph

23     Lorenzo Claude Bellerose, witness 97.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No protective measures, Mr. Russo.

25             MR. RUSSO:  That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 5859

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from the matters just dealt with, which

 2     are not considered to be objections against admission of the 92 ter

 3     statement as such, apart from this -- this opinion matter --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- there is no objection from any of the Defence

 6     teams.  That's then clear.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Bellerose.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bellerose, before you give evidence in this

11     court the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

12     declaration that you will speaks the truth the whole truth and nothing

13     butt truth.  The text is now handed out to you but Madam Usher and I

14     would like to invite to you make that declaration.

15             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Bellerose.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19                           WITNESS:  JOSEPH LORENZO CLAUDE BELLEROSE

20                           Examination by Mr. Russo:

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You will first be examined by Mr. Russo, who is

22     counsel for the Prosecution.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Bellerose.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 5860

 1        Q.   Let me first apologise on behalf of our office for having kept

 2     you here for so long waiting.  Thank you for your patience and I would

 3     ask you please to state your full name for the record.

 4        A.   Joseph Lorenzo Claude Bellerose.

 5        Q.   And Mr. Bellerose, do you recall giving two statements to the

 6     ICTY, one dated 1st November 1995, the other dated that 2nd of

 7     November 1999?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5205.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The Prosecution counsel is kindly requested to

11     speak into the microphone or maybe even into another microphone.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, you got the message.

13             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry, Your Honour?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to speak into the microphone or in

15     another microphone.  The microphone you're using at this time is

16     relatively far away and perhaps obstructed a bit.

17             MR. RUSSO:  I apologise Your Honour, thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Bellerose, do you see your statement there on the screen?

19        A.   No, I don't.

20        Q.   It's coming up in just a second.

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recognise that as your 1 November 1995

23     statement?

24        A.   Is it possible to scroll -- scroll through, to the ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bellerose, you mean page by page.

Page 5861

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, please.

 2             Yes, it's yeah.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

 4             And, Mr. Registrar, if we could now have 65 ter 5232.

 5             And if we could scroll to the last signature page.

 6             Mr. Bellerose, do you recognise that as your 2 November 1995 --

 7     1999 statement?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   And did you have a chance to review both of those statements

10     before coming to court today?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   And are those statements true and accurate to the best of your

13     knowledge?

14        A.   Yes, they are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge.

15        Q.   And do both of those statements correctly reflect the information

16     that you gave ICTY investigators.

17        A.   Yes, they are.

18        Q.   And if you were examined with regard to those same matters here

19     today, would your answers be the same as in those statements?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, at this time I would move for the

23     admission of 65 ter 5205, 65 ter 5232.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As I established before, there are no

25     objections against admission.

Page 5862

 1             Mr. Registrar, first the November 1995 statement.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P545.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P545 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Then the November 1999 statement.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P546, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P546 is admitted into evidence.

 7             You may proceed.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could please have the

 9     assistance of the court usher I would like to give the witness hard

10     copies of his statements.

11             And with your permission, Mr. President I would like to read a

12     brief summary of the witness's evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

14             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

15             "Mr. Bellerose was the sector engineer for the whole of

16     Sector South from 15 June until 16 December 1995 and was responsible for

17     supervising all engineering work, including construction of observation

18     posts and demining.  In connection with his duties he travelled

19     extensively throughout Sector South both prior to and after

20     Operation Storm.  He observed that there were not many soldiers in Knin

21     prior to Operation Storm, and even in his travels throughout the sector,

22     he only saw small groups of four or five ARSK soldiers at a time.  He was

23     present in Knin during the artillery attack on the 4th and 5th of August,

24     1995, and observed the shelling from the balcony of the UN HQ building.

25             "Mr. Bellerose delivered medical supplies to the hospital during

Page 5863

 1     the shelling on the 4th of August and observed a great deal of

 2     devastation, including dead civilians an individuals in uniform lying in

 3     the streets, injured people at the hospital with limbs missing and

 4     buildings and cars on fire.

 5             "While he was supervising the delivery of medical supplies at the

 6     hospital, shells were flying over his head and impacting in the town.  He

 7     proposed and implemented the plan for accommodating the Serbs who sought

 8     refuge in the UN HQ compound, most of whom were women, children and the

 9     elderly.

10             "After Operation Storm, on 6 August, he observed Croatian

11     authorities bringing in civilian trucks to clean up the main road in

12     Knin.  On 9 August he travelled to the water-pumping station for Knin to

13     try and restore water service and observed that almost every house and

14     apartment in Knin had been looted.  During his travels throughout the

15     sector after Operation Storm, he observed that many villages were

16     deployed by burning and looting.  He was often prevented from entering

17     villages by Croatian special police and would later see smoke rising from

18     houses in those villages."

19              Your Honour, that concludes the summary.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

21             MR. RUSSO:

22        Q.   Mr. Bellerose, I would first like to discuss the situation in

23     Sector South prior to Operation Storm.  Can you please give the Court

24     some idea for how extensively you travelled in the sector prior to the

25     artillery attack?

Page 5864

 1        A.   Yes.  Prior to the attack, one of my main role was to oversee the

 2     reinforcement of all the UN observation posts.  As such, I believe there

 3     was 120 observation posts between the Serb and the Croat border, and I

 4     visited each one of them.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And during these trips did you ever have occasion to

 6     see any ARSK observation posts?

 7        A.   I saw a few observation posts.

 8        Q.   And can you please give the Court an idea for the state of those

 9     observation posts?

10        A.   The observation posts that I saw, they were called very

11     substandard, affording very little overhead protection in case of

12     artillery or direct fire.

13        Q.   And can you give the Court some idea of how equipped or manned

14     these observation posts were?

15        A.   At the observation posts that I saw, I didn't see any heavy

16     equipment or artillery pieces.  Basically the observation posts were

17     manned by two, three, four, maybe five ARSK soldier, at the most.

18        Q.   And during these trips to all of the observation posts, did you

19     have the opportunity to observe the living conditions in the Republic of

20     Serbian Krajina generally?

21        A.   We're talking about civilian population?

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   There was a big difference into the standard of living of the

24     people in Croatia into the Serb area.  For me, looking back, in the Serb

25     area, it's like I was going into a third world country where there was

Page 5865

 1     not many vehicle moving around.  Most people were walking or having horse

 2     or donkey pulling carts.  It was very poor standard of living.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to now move to the events of -- in Knin on 4

 4     August 1995.  Can you please tell the Court what you observed, what you

 5     saw and heard of the shelling on that day?

 6        A.   The shelling started, I believe, around 5.00 in the morning on

 7     the 4th, and it was very intensive for about a period of one to two

 8     hours.  From the sound, it sounded like the artillery was all over the

 9     place, in -- you know, and there was no really any specific target.

10             Then after an hour or two, it slowed down.  And then you could

11     hear artillery landing everywhere in town, in -- you know, until I got on

12     to the balcony of the UN headquarters then I could see that they were

13     landing in the different parts of town.

14        Q.   If I could direct you to your second statement, that is P546, and

15     page 3 of your second statement, the fourth paragraph.  And in the B/C/S

16     translation that's page 3, second paragraph.  And there you reference

17     that the initial shelling began at 5.00 a.m., and you state:  "I could

18     tell by the noise that some shelling was artillery fire and some was

19     rocket fire."

20             Could you please explain to the Court how you were able to

21     distinguish that?

22        A.   At the time I believe there was, because of my military training,

23     where I had previously seen a rocket fired during a fire-power

24     demonstration.

25        Q.   And staying again in that same paragraph, you indicate that you

Page 5866

 1     went to the top floor of the UN HQ building to observe the shelling and

 2     that you saw shells landing in the railway goods yard near the northern

 3     barracks and you also saw them exploding in Knin close to the hill where

 4     the winding road from Gracac passes.

 5             Can you please clarify for the Court whether these are the only

 6     areas in which you saw shells landing in Knin?

 7        A.   No, it was not the only places.  Those are the ones that stuck to

 8     my mind that I could locate or be able to identify on a map or photos.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Moving to your first statement, that's P545, it's

10     that one-page, at paragraph 1 - it's the same in the B/C/S - you indicate

11     that you took a trip to Knin hospital to deliver medical supplies on the

12     4th, sometime between 1600 and 1800 hours.  I would like you to please

13     describe that trip for the Court.

14        A.   I was asked by the Chief of Staff, General Leslie, to go to the

15     hospital -- well, the purpose of the trip was two -- threefold.  First we

16     had to take General Forand to the Serb headquarters.  Also to go to the

17     hospital to deliver medical supply.  And on our way back our task was to

18     go to several houses that we knew were UN civilian employee or -- and UN

19     civilian police were residing and to bring them back to safety inside the

20     UN camp.

21             We did the trip with two armoured person carrier, one M-113 and

22     one OT-64.  Inside the trip I was inside the vehicle, so I could not see

23     what was happening, but I could hear artillery shell landing.

24             When we got to the hospital, I got out of the vehicle and

25     supervised the unloading of medical supply.  While I was outside the

Page 5867

 1     hospital and outside the armoured personnel carrier, I could hear shell

 2     flying overhead and hearing them explode inside Knin.

 3             On our way back I was inside the armoured personnel carrier and

 4     then when we got the location of the address where we knew civilian

 5     police, UN civilian police and UN employees were living, then I got

 6     outside the vehicle and I could see devastation in the street.  Some

 7     bodies were lying down, some cars were on fire, and I could hear

 8     artillery round impacting to the town.

 9             Once we pick up as many people as we could and retrieve General

10     Forand, we went back to the UN compound.

11        Q.   Thank you for that.  Let me ask you, Mr. Bellerose, while you

12     were at the hospital, did you see an ARSK tank anywhere in the area?

13        A.   No, I didn't.

14        Q.   Did you see any evidence that a tank or multiple tanks had been

15     stationed near the hospital?

16        A.   No, I didn't.

17        Q.   Let's please move back it your second statement, that is P546, at

18     page 4, in the third paragraph.  And in the B/C/S translation that would

19     be page 4 at the top of the page.  And there you discuss the same trip

20     but in more detail, and you indicate that:  "Driving through Knin on this

21     mission I saw a great deal of devastation.  There were a number of what

22     appeared to be dead civilians lying in the streets, although some were in

23     uniform.  Buildings and cars were on fire and there was devastation

24     everywhere I looked."

25             I think you have explained to the Court that you made these

Page 5868

 1     observations while you were outside the APC.

 2             Let me ask you during your proofing session did you have a chance

 3     to mark on an aerial photograph of Knin some of the locations where you

 4     stopped as well as where you saw the shells impacting in Knin?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5303.

 7             Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bellerose, do you recognise this photograph?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And are you able to describe for the Court the markings that you

11     made?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Can you please describe for the Court what the circle towards the

14     bottom labelled A represents?

15        A.   Represent two things.  The first is -- this is where I saw three

16     artillery round, as per my first statement, landing and it also represent

17     one of the area where we stop to pick up some UN employees, civilian

18     employee, and UN civilian police.  So we had several stop in that area.

19        Q.   And the circle directly above that which is labelled C?

20        A.   This is where I saw one artillery round landing at the north

21     railway tracks.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And the circle above and to the left of that, which

23     is marked D?

24        A.   D, this is another area we stop on the way back from the hospital

25     to pick up UN and civilian and UN police.

Page 5869

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And, finally, the circle far to the left which is

 2     marked B?

 3        A.   That's where my first statement I identify one artillery round

 4     landing.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I would move for the admission of 65 ter

 7     5305.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P547.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P547 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Moving now to the 5th of August, 1995, Mr. Bellerose, can you

14     please --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, would you allow me one question.

16             In the witness statement we see what appears to be civilians

17     although in uniforms.  How do you identify someone in a uniform as being

18     a civilian?  Could you explain that to us?

19             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo just read part of your statement and --

21             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, for the Court's benefit that is second

22     statement, page 4, third paragraph.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I -- Mr. Russo read to you from your

24     statement, saying:  "There were a number of what appeared to be dead

25     civilians lying in the streets, although some were in uniform."

Page 5870

 1             Could you tell us exactly how you identify a dead person in

 2     uniform being a civilian?

 3             THE WITNESS:  I believe at the time what I meant to say was that

 4     there was some dead civilian and also there was some dead people in

 5     uniform, meaning the soldiers.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you therefore do not express any opinion

 7     about whether those persons in uniform were civilians or not?

 8             THE WITNESS:  No.  I didn't mean to say that those person in

 9     uniform were civilian.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Bellerose, if you could please explain to the Court the

14     observations you made regarding the shelling that occurred on the 5th of

15     August.

16        A.   The shelling on the 5th of August was, when it started in the

17     morning was still very extensive for the first hour.  I believe it

18     started near 0515 hours.  And then later on, during the day, it was of

19     not extensive at all.  There was very sporadic, one shell maybe every

20     ten, 15 minutes, and there were at all -- all over the place.  There was

21     not one specific location.  That was later on that during the afternoon.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bellerose, can you tell the Court whether, on

23     either the 4th or the 5th of August, if you ever saw or heard any

24     outgoing artillery fire from Knin?

25        A.   I never saw nor did I hear any outgoing fire.

Page 5871

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And if we could move to your second statement again.

 2     That's P546.  At page 7.  This is in the B/C/S, page 6.  At the last full

 3     paragraph you offer some opinions and I will quote:  "In my opinion the

 4     shelling of Knin was carried out to drive away of the civilian

 5     population.  The shelling was not directed at specific military targets.

 6     I believe it was deliberate harassment shelling."

 7             Now I would like to discuss the factual basis for each one of

 8     these opinions separately.  First let me ask you, what was the basis for

 9     your opinion that the shelling was carried out to drive away the civilian

10     population?

11        A.   In my opinion, if there would have been military target in those

12     location that would have been causing a threat to the Croat forces, they

13     would have been more intensive and direct at a specific target, be more

14     concentrated.

15        Q.   Can you tell the Court what you observed that was not consistent

16     with that?

17        A.   The artillery fire wasn't concentrated into one location.  It was

18     landing all over the town more to a random fashion and at random

19     interval.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And you indicated that the shelling was not directed

21     at specific military targets.  Let me ask you first to please identify or

22     tell the Court what you believed the military targets to be at the time

23     and why.

24        A.   For what I have seen in my time in Knin, the military target

25     would have been the north camp, the camp adjacent to the UN compound and

Page 5872

 1     the RSK headquarter in downtown Knin.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You also offered the opinion that it was deliberate

 3     harassment fire, and I would like you to please explain for the Court

 4     what you meant by that.

 5        A.   Because it was like a random firing all over the place and random

 6     interval, you know, for me, I believed that this is -- this is a

 7     situation that will make the occupants of the town, if they were still

 8     there, wondering if they were going to be next or when the next round was

 9     going to land, if it would be close to their place.  Just that, I don't

10     know, it's hard for me to explain, but it wasn't -- makes you wonder if

11     the next round is going to be in your backyard as opposed to, you know,

12     five -- 500 metres or, you know, five miles down the road.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And the military targets that you identified, the

14     north camp, the camp adjacent to the UN compound and the RSK headquarters

15     in downtown Knin, can you tell the Court whether from your observations

16     you saw fire being concentrated on those areas?

17        A.   I'm sorry?

18        Q.   I'd like you to explain for the Court if during the times that

19     you observed the shelling of Knin, if you saw artillery fire being

20     concentrated on either what you identify as the north camp or the RSK

21     headquarters or the Serb camp next to the UN base.

22        A.   No, I didn't.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move now to some of the events that

24     followed Operation Storm and if we could move to page 5 of your second

25     statement at the fourth paragraph in the very middle of the page and in

Page 5873

 1     the B/C/S translation this is at page 4.  It's the last full paragraph.

 2             And in there, Mr. Bellerose, you state that:  "On the 6th of

 3     August you saw that the Croats were bringing in civilian trucks to clean

 4     up the main road through Knin."

 5             I'd like you to explain to the Court what exactly it was that you

 6     observed which led you to conclude that the purpose of these trucks was

 7     to clean up the main road.

 8        A.   I've been in the construction business as an engineer for most of

 9     my life, and that morning of the 6th what I saw going to Knin were

10     basically construction truck.  There were like contractors truck that

11     carried construction material, plywood, two by four, window replacement

12     glass, and there was several one of them, so like the type of trucks that

13     you see going to a major construction site and also the material that it

14     was carrying.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And in that same paragraph -- I'm sorry, on the same

16     page in the next paragraph you describe a trip that you took on the 9th

17     of August to try and restore water service to the UN camp and this

18     appears in the B/C/S translation at the top of the page 5.

19             Let me ask you, Mr. Bellerose, do you know why was no water

20     supply in the compound at that time?

21        A.   The pumping station was no longer working and also some of the

22     water line had been broken because of artillery fire.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In that same paragraph describing the trip that you

24     took into the town on that day, you indicated and I will quote:  "There

25     was devastation everywhere in Knin.  It was obvious that looting had

Page 5874

 1     taken place.  There was clothing and other items lying beneath the

 2     windows of almost every house and apartment."

 3             And I would like to ask you, did the devastation that you

 4     witnessed on that day include damage from shelling?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   And based on what you observed, was this damage from shelling

 7     concentrated in any particular area of the town?

 8        A.   No, it wasn't.  It was all over the place.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And moving to the last paragraph at the bottom of

10     page 5 of your second statement.  In the B/C/S this is page 5, the third

11     paragraph.  You mention an incident on the 12th of August where you

12     discovered the body of an ARSK soldier who had been shot in the chest and

13     you offer your opinion that he had been executed, and I would like you to

14     please explain for the Court what it was about the circumstances that led

15     to you form that opinion.

16        A.   Yeah, for me, the body was just lying down on a straight fashion,

17     just like if the person had been lying down on his back and, you know,

18     had been shot.  I'm no expert on crime scene investigation, but, for me,

19     if somebody would have been standing up and shot in the back when they

20     are falling down, his body would have probably been arm twisted, leg --

21     you know, but it wouldn't be straight.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And turning to page 6of your second statement, the

23     top paragraph, and in the B/C/S this is page 5, the fourth paragraph, you

24     indicate that after Operation Storm the Croatian special police often

25     stopped you from entering some villages and that you would later see

Page 5875

 1     houses in those villages on fire.

 2             I would like you to please explain for the Court these kinds of

 3     incidents, how did they happen?

 4        A.   At that time we had been directed by General Forand to start

 5     dismantling all the observation posts and return them to the -- the

 6     ground in pristine condition.  One of my tasks was go and oversee all the

 7     dismantle of the OPs and travelling throughout the sector, several times,

 8     you know, we get to a village trying to go to that village to get to an

 9     observation and the special police were blocking the roads and telling us

10     it wasn't safe to go through the area because they were conducting

11     operation.  And so we -- we went and tried to get to another OP and quite

12     often on the way back we could see that one or two houses in that village

13     had been set on fire.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You described these soldiers as Croatian special

15     police.  Can you describe for the Court what they were wearing?

16        A.   They were wearing one or two-piece uniform that was either, going

17     from memory, either dark grey or black.  They also were wearing black

18     load bearing vest, a vest that where you could put ammunition, carry your

19     ammunition or grenades.  They looked very professional.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And the incidents that you described where they

21     prevented you from entering villages that you later saw houses burning

22     in, could you give the Court some idea of how often this incident

23     occurred?

24        A.   Maybe three or four times.  It's hard for me to recall right now.

25        Q.   And are you able to tell the Court in what area generally any of

Page 5876

 1     these incidents occurred?

 2        A.   I remember once or twice going toward Gracac.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And also in that same paragraph you state:  "The

 4     Croats allowed us to use the main roads but kept us away from villages on

 5     the side roads."

 6             Can you please explain for the Court how exactly you were kept on

 7     the main roads?

 8        A.   They had roadblocks with check-points.

 9        Q.   And can you tell the Court who was manning those check-points?

10        A.   The special police.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for the

13     witness.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bellerose.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Russo.  I have one matter which I

16     would like to seek clarification of.

17             Mr. Bellerose, Mr. Russo invited you to explain to us what it was

18     that you observed which led you to conclude that the purpose of these

19     trucks was to clean up the main road, and then your answer was about what

20     they were carrying and what your experience as an engineer told you about

21     that, plywood, two by four, window replacement glass.

22             Now, if I look at your statement, I see that the portion read to

23     you by Mr. Russo is part of a sentence which is "they were tidying up the

24     main street for the benefit of the media.  That is my considered belief."

25     That follows the sentence which said "they were bringing in civilian

Page 5877

 1     trucks to clean up the main road through Knin."

 2             Apparently there are two issues in your statement.  One is

 3     cleaning up the main road through Knin and the other one is tidying up

 4     the main street for the benefit of the media.

 5             The question put to you about the trucks was focussing at to

 6     clean the main road.  Your answer seemed to be rather reconstruction.  At

 7     least I have some difficulties in understanding what you exactly said,

 8     also because you said it was for the benefit of the media.

 9             Could you elaborate on the matters that are still puzzling me.

10             THE WITNESS:  The -- when I first went into Knin after the

11     offensive -- well, let's go back.

12             When I went in town, on the main street and when we pick up

13     General Forand, there was devastation.  Window glass on that street were

14     broken and there was a lot of devastation in town.

15             When we went back out to go to the water station that Wednesday,

16     the main street had been cleaned up.  Now, yes, we could see devastation

17     throughout Knin, that sign of looting, but that main street in front of

18     the ARSK headquarters had been cleaned up.  Window had -- glasses had

19     been replaced, and you know, it was obvious that there was some tidying

20     up that had been happening on that street.

21             And also -- I mean, that's -- also it's an opinion that, you

22     know, for me, there was -- it was a public relation because the press,

23     when they started to come to our camp to try to interview us, I recall

24     somebody from -- you know, telling me that they been restricted to

25     basically some of the main street of Knin.  So this is where I probably

Page 5878

 1     derived that statement from, that that was for the purpose of the media.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I have to understand that what you saw you

 3     considered to be an organised attempt to make things look better than

 4     actually they were.  Is that, in short what you were --

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's what I'm trying to say, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bellerose, you will now be cross-examined by

10     Mr. Kehoe, who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

12        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.  How are you?

13        A.   Thank you.

14        Q.   Colonel, just turning to your statement, your first -- your

15     second statement, and that would be P546.  I believe you have it in front

16     of you.

17             And you note in the first page of that document -- actually, it

18     is the second page, last paragraph that when you -- "I arrived Knin in

19     the middle of June 1995, I could feel a tension in the area.  I believe

20     that everyone knew that something was going to take place."

21             Do you see that, Colonel?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, Colonel, during this time were you aware of military

24     activities by the HV in the Livno valley?

25        A.   Can you refresh my memory?  Where is the Livno valley --

Page 5879

 1        Q.   On the other side of the Dinara.

 2        A.   So that would be east of Sector South.

 3        Q.   Actually, that would be west of Sector South.  If you're looking

 4     out the front, it would be west.

 5        A.   Yes, I do recall, yeah.

 6        Q.   Oh, you do, okay.  Now -- I do apologise, that is east.  As you

 7     look to the right that is east you're absolutely right?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, whatever direction you look, things are

 9     always east or west from other point, or north or south, but it doesn't

10     change if we look at it from a different way.

11             MR. KEHOE:  That's true, it was east.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. KEHOE:  I apologise, it was east.

14        Q.   Now you were aware of that, were you, sir?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And during this time when you got here there was a --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  May I just interrupt.  Mr. Bellerose, you quickly

18     moved from east to west.  That's not what you're supposed to do if it

19     really is east.

20             THE WITNESS:  Oh, I understand.  But I didn't recall the Livno

21     valley afterwards.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  But the last --

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- last words of Mr. Kehoe were "it would it be

25     would be west," and then you said "yes, I do recall."  That is at least

Page 5880

 1     ambiguous.  Could you try to focus very much on what is said and what

 2     your answer is.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             MR. KEHOE:

 7        Q.   And my apologies, Colonel, I mean I was the confusing party here,

 8     Your Honour, and I do apologise to the Court, to the witness, and the

 9     Livno valley is in fact east.

10             Now, the tension did include hijackings by the RSK, didn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you were forced to travel in pairs?

13        A.   That was hijacking a vehicle and not personnel, yeah.

14        Q.   Hijacking of vehicles but you were forced to travel in pairs?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   And if I may and if I can turn to your diary, which is 65 ter

17     5285.

18        A.   Can I see a copy of the diary?  I don't have it in front of me,

19     yes.

20             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I did bring a hard copy for the witness

21     in case this happened.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I take it that there is no objections.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Quite all right, quite all right.  Colonel,

24     absolutely.  And frankly, I apologise for not having it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, could you please assist Mr. Russo.

Page 5881

 1     Thank you.

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Turning your attention to the 28th of July, 1995, and that would

 4     be at page -- if we're looking at the top of that document it is

 5     06354619.  At the bottom of the page.  If we can page up till 28th of

 6     July using the -- let's just go to the bottom of that page.

 7             28th of July, notes "interesting day.  HV, HVO, Croatians took

 8     the town of Bosansko Grahovo in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This cut one of the

 9     Serbs' main supply routes.  General mobilisation is happening in town."

10             Now taking that general mobilisation happening in town, I'd like

11     to read a piece of testimony from a Prosecution witness a UN CIVPOL

12     representative Jan Elleby.  And he noted at page 3474, line 6:  "Now as

13     we move through July of 1995, you note in your supplemental information

14     sheet -- well, I actually think it begins on P214 -- that you saw a lot

15     of soldiers in the street.  In your supplemental sheet you note that you

16     observed an increased number of RSK troops in Knin in this period.  In

17     the period building up to the beginning of Operation Storm can you tell

18     us about that a little bit."

19             "Answer:  Yes, the assessment of the picture in the streets in

20     the town was that from a few days in July and up to the end of July there

21     came more and more military vehicles, more and more uniformed military

22     personnel."

23             "Question:  And did you and our CIVPOL monitors observe that

24     while you were driving around the area.

25             "Answer is:  Yes."

Page 5882

 1             Now, you know note there was a general mobilisation in town and

 2     Mr. Elleby notes that will more and more uniformed personnel.  Is

 3     Mr. Elleby's observations consistent with your own and do they likewise

 4     reflect your statement in your diary that a general mobilisation is

 5     happening in town?

 6        A.   If we go to my statement in my diary, I believe that the

 7     statement came from information that was passed at one of the staff

 8     meeting at the sector headquarters.

 9             For me, on the day leading to 4th and 5th of August, during that

10     period, I was very busy visiting every observation post, so I used to

11     leave Knin quite earlier in the morning to be at the various observation

12     posts.  So quite often, when I was leaving the town, I didn't see too

13     many people on the street, and when I was driving through the sector, I

14     didn't see.  So, I cannot comment on -- on that.

15        Q.   Well, when you -- and I'm just waiting for the translation to

16     catch up, Colonel.

17             When the issue of general mobilisation came to your attention at

18     Sector South headquarters, what did these other individuals say that the

19     ARSK was doing to mobilise?

20        A.   I don't recall.

21        Q.   Well, I'm talking about the town of -- of Knin itself.  While you

22     were driving in there did you observe men wearing camouflage uniforms?

23        A.   Yes, I did, sometime.

24        Q.   And the people that were in camouflage uniforms, did you note

25     that they were in a large age category from young men to older men?

Page 5883

 1        A.   I don't recall.

 2        Q.   Were you aware that ARSK had arms depots around Knin?

 3        A.   Before I went -- or before the 4th and 5th, I was unaware.  I was

 4     made aware of one of them afterwards, near Strmica, or on the road

 5     between the water station and Strmica.  I could not locate it on a map.

 6        Q.   So you were never there yourself?

 7        A.   I was there, but it was afterwards when everything had been

 8     removed from the site.

 9        Q.   Now, likewise during this period of time if we can turn to your

10     diary at 06354598, the ARSK was restricting your movement, weren't they?

11        A.   Which paragraph?

12        Q.   It's the top of the page on 06354598, the entry for June 22nd.

13     It should be paragraph 3 for June 22nd.  You see that second sentence:

14     "I don't know why, but sometimes they restrict our movement."

15        A.   It did happen on several occasions.

16        Q.   So the ARSK was preventing you from going to certain locations?

17        A.   Yes, can I remember twice.

18        Q.   And what locations were they?

19        A.   I cannot recall.

20        Q.   Now, you note in your diary, as we read previously, that

21     Bosansko Grahovo fell towards the latter part of July.  Were you aware

22     that after that the ARSK was planning a counterattack against the HV to

23     retake Grahovo?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Now, just by way of background you knew the importance of Knin to

Page 5884

 1     the RSK, did you not?

 2        A.   Not really.  Well, other than being the former capital of the

 3     Krajina, so ...

 4        Q.   And was it considered in your conversations with your colleagues

 5     and anybody else in the area, was Knin considered to be the centre of the

 6     Republic of Serb Krajina?

 7        A.   I don't remember discussing this or ...

 8        Q.   Now, Colonel, what I'd like to do at this point is touch on a few

 9     topics that are referred in your statement and that were also referred to

10     by Mr. Russo.  So to the extent that we're jumping around a little bit --

11        A.   No.  Also, maybe I would like to clarify to the Court, I know

12     Mr. Kehoe, you're referring to me as a Colonel but I did retire as a

13     lieutenant-colonel, so I'm retired right now, so I just ...

14        Q.   I understand, Judge.  It's a habit out of respect and as long

15     as -- if you're uncomfortable with it, I'll call you Mr. Bellerose.

16        A.   No, I don't have a problem, it's just to clarify.

17        Q.   I understand.

18             Now, you noted during the course of your direct testimony about

19     observation posts, and you talked about some of these observations posts

20     being poorly constructed and we're going to get to that in a second?

21             I would first, with regard to the weaponry involved, you did see

22     the ARSK with heavy weaponry while you were in the area, did you not?

23        A.   During the period that I was there what I saw was some -- few

24     artillery piece, some D-20 being towed.  I saw one D 34/85 with a --

25     missing a cannon where the cannon was broken and I saw a couple of BMP.

Page 5885

 1        Q.   And what is a BMP?

 2        A.   I'm sorry?

 3        Q.   What is the last one?

 4        A.   BMP, it Russian-made armoured personnel carrier.

 5        Q.   Let's talk about that for a second and talk about the D-20s that

 6     is in fact in your diary.  At June the 20th, page 06354595 towards the

 7     bottom.  Paragraph 6.

 8        A.   Yeah.

 9        Q.   "On the way to JorBat we saw six artillery pieces being towed.

10     They were IDd as ID-20s.  They were going towards Benkovac."

11             I would like to pull up on the screen, and I think we have to do

12     this via Sanction, Your Honour.  I stand corrected.  It is now in e-court

13     and it is 1D36-0008.

14             These are two pages, Colonel, from a UN recognition handbook of

15     the former Yugoslavia, if you can just scroll that page a little bit,

16     that is issued -- had been issued by the national defence.

17             And if we could then turn to the next page.

18             Colonel, that is a D 20 Howitzer, a 152 millimetre with an

19     effective rage of 17.3 kilometres.

20             You saw six of those being towed by the ARSK?

21        A.   I believe so.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time we'll offer into evidence

23     1D36-0008.

24             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 5886

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D512, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D512 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   Colonel, you said in your diary that these were headed towards

 5     Benkovac.  Do you know in fact where they went?

 6        A.   No, I don't.  No, I don't remember where they went.  We radioed

 7     in and hoping that UNMO were going to follow up on the lead.

 8        Q.   Now, this weapon, this D 20, it notes it goes into a Howitzer

 9     category, right?

10        A.   I believe so.

11        Q.   Just staying, if we will, for the co -- this OPs, the observation

12     posts that were looking at and examining and you tell us in your

13     statement that General Forand had you looking at these various

14     observation posts.  And let me just turn your attention to your diary

15     again, 65 ter 5282 [sic].

16             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time if I could just offer into

17     evidence the diary 65 ter 5285.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

19             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number D513, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that then the whole of the diary --

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you're speaking to be admitted.

25             MR. KEHOE:  It's not that long, Judge.

Page 5887

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D513 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Now, Colonel, if we can move to your entry of the 12th of July on

 4     06354612, paragraph 1.  That's towards the bottom of the page.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And I'm just waiting for it to come up on the screen, Colonel, so

 7     others can view it.

 8             At the bottom it says:  "Today the commander Brigadier-General

 9     Forand had a conference with all the battalion commanders to discuss op

10     or 0795 SCR 981 and he -- his proposal option 1 and 2, "I was present and

11     everybody doesn't agree with the sector commander, the orders do not make

12     sense."

13             What is that order, sir, the SCR 981?

14        A.   I don't recall.

15        Q.   Let me turn your attention just briefly to D288, which is the

16     order for active presence.

17             If we can turn to the next page.

18             Colonel, this is an order written by General Al Rodan on the 24th

19     of July 1995 and you can see at paragraph D it has the SCR 981, 95.  Were

20     you familiar with this order for active presence?

21        A.   I have to have a look at it.

22        Q.   Please do, just have a quick look at it.

23        A.   Is it possible to zoom a little bit?

24        Q.   Sure.

25        A.   I don't remember seeing that document before.

Page 5888

 1        Q.   Okay, sir.  Well, the meeting that you had we just had from the

 2     diary was on the 12th, and you noted in your statement, and I'm talking

 3     about page -- statements page 2 and 3 and that would be -- page -- P546,

 4     I believe.  Yes, P546.  Two and three in the English.  Talking about the

 5     observation posts towards the bottom:  "These Serb OPs are overlooking

 6     the Zone of Separation and were sometimes built close to the UN

 7     observation posts.  Several were built very close to CanBat OPs and the

 8     Brigadier-General ordered that the Kenyans make the Serbs move their OPs

 9     and as a result of this, some of the Serb OPs were moved and others were

10     not."

11             So during this period of time there was a series co-location

12     problem where the ARSK forces were in the same location of the UN

13     observation posts.  Isn't that right?

14        A.   In the Kenyan sector, yes.

15        Q.   And you noted that -- well, let me turn to your diary very

16     quickly -- well, before I get into it just in the Kenyan section, weren't

17     there co-location problems in the CanBat areas and near Obrovac and

18     Rastovac and Petrum [phoen] and Priste [phoen], weren't there co-location

19     problems in those locales as well?

20        A.   I remember one in the Canadian and that was on I believe the big

21     mountain called Petrum, yeah.

22        Q.   You don't recall any of the others?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   But you visited them all?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5889

 1        Q.   So did you visit them starting in June and up till

 2     Operation Storm?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   So it is possible that the co-location problem came in -- became

 5     a problem after you visited that observation post?

 6        A.   Correct.  Especially -- well, in the Canadian sector their OP

 7     were in very good condition so when General Forand asked us to reinforce

 8     the observation post, I concentrate into the Canadian and the Jordanian

 9     OP -- the Kenyan and Jordanian.  Sorry.

10        Q.   Now these observation posts where there was co-location was

11     readily observable, wasn't it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And what was -- what was the reaction of the HV when they

14     observed the UN observation posts and the ARSK observation posts

15     co-located?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Did you ask?

18        A.   I'm sorry?

19        Q.   Did you ask anybody?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   You mentioned to us that some of the ARSK observation posts were

22     not of a higher quality.  Is that right?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   And would they have been in the CanBat area?

25        A.   The one that I saw on mount Prism [phoen] was dug in, had fairly

Page 5890

 1     good protection.

 2        Q.   And I -- I -- I apologise there.  I think I came across as

 3     CanBat.  I'm talking about KenBat.

 4        A.   Oh, Ken.

 5        Q.   Excuse me.  Was one of the areas that you --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we in order to avoid any confusion and also to

 7     make the work of the transcribers possible make a distinction between

 8     Canadian and Kenyan clearly and not just by referring to them as can --

 9     whether it is pronounced as can or ken.  It goes beyond my --

10             MR. KEHOE:  Beyond ken.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. KEHOE:  I do apologise, because part is my pronunciation as

13     well, apologies.

14        Q.   I'm talking about the Kenyan battalion.  Was one of the locations

15     that you noted as being substandard in the Kenyan battalion area?

16        A.   Yes, both the Kenyan and the Serb OP were very substandard.

17        Q.   Let me turn your attention to your diary on the 13th of July,

18     that's page 06354614, the day after your meeting with General Forand.

19             Do you see that, sir?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   It notes:  "With CO Kenyan bat, KenBat, to do a requi for his new

22     HQ.  We found a place presently occupied by the Serbs.  We can have the

23     site provided we gave them 5.000 litres of diesel and 200 litres of

24     petrol.  Chief of Staff -- " that would be Colonel Leslie, right?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 5891

 1        Q.   " -- agreed to 500 litres and 100 litres.  Sector commander was

 2     not informed and will be kept in the dark.  Only a few people will know

 3     about the deal."

 4             Now, first part of this, Colonel, is that you wanted a location

 5     for the Kenyan battalion that was being occupied by the Serbs.

 6        A.   Correct.  What was happening was the Kenyan battalion

 7     headquarters was located really close to the Canadian -- to the Canadian

 8     sector.  And the idea was to relocate that headquarters so it would be

 9     more centralised within their own area of responsibility.

10        Q.   My point is that there was a location that was being occupied by

11     the Serbs that the UN wanted.

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And they wanted it so much, they were willing to pay the Serbs

14     for that location.

15        A.   The problem at that site is there was some Serb vehicle, some

16     trucks, and it -- in order for those truck to be moved, they needed fuel.

17        Q.   Yeah.  My question was, in order to get that particular location,

18     you were willing to pay the Serbs.  Isn't that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And in order to move the Serb trucks, you didn't need 500 litres

21     of diesel and a 100 litres of petrol, did you?

22        A.   I believe we did.

23        Q.   Well, sir, if you needed that, why didn't you tell General

24     Forand?

25        A.   I reported to the Chief of Staff.  I don't know why General

Page 5892

 1     Leslie didn't want to talk to General Forand.

 2        Q.   So it was General Leslie's decision to keep this information away

 3     from General Forand?

 4        A.   I believe so.

 5        Q.   Now, what -- have you concluded what the reaction of the HV was

 6     when they found out that the UN was selling petrol to the Serbs?

 7        A.   Can you repeat that, please?

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  Perhaps there could be some

 9     foundation.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Selling petrol to the Serbs.  Could you --

11             MR. KEHOE:  Sure.

12        Q.   Did you learn, Colonel, that the HV found out that the UN was

13     selling diesel fuel and petrol to the Serbs?

14        A.   No.

15             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I'm not sure where the

16     selling of the petrol to the Serbs is coming from.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not make it too much of a semantic discussion

18     where under commercial law it would be --

19             MR. KEHOE:  Bartering.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- completed -- well, at least one -- apparently

21     what happened at least from what I understand until now is that 500

22     litres of diesel are given in return to allowing the UN forces to have a

23     certain position.  Whether you would call that selling or not is not, I

24     think, the major issue.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, if I may, there is foundation for

Page 5893

 1     this in Mr. Hill's testimony which was confirmed by General Forand that

 2     approximately a million litres of fuel was going missing a month and

 3     General Forand did confirm that it was being black marketed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, black marketed.  But I have not yet hear --

 5     whether this is black market or not is still to be seen or whether it is

 6     a fair compensation for some disadvantage.  You could give it a lot of

 7     names.  At this movement what apparently stands is that 500 litres,

 8     although 5.000 were asked, were given in return --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  1.000 were asked, Judge.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  1.000.  Oh, then I had difficulties in --

11             MR. KEHOE:  I think it says 1.000 litres of diesel and 2.000

12     litres of petrol.  I said five.  It should be one.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, in the original the handwriting it -- we could

14     even ask the witness because he is --

15              MR. KEHOE:  Ask the witness, absolutely.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did -- what was asked, 5.000 or a thousand litres, I

17     think, so apart from the 200 litres of petrol, what was the initial

18     request?

19             THE WITNESS:  There was one thousand.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One thousand, yes.  Is a bit unclear in writing.

21     But that is clarified.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

23             MR. KEHOE:

24        Q.   Now, continuing on, staying in your diary there Colonel, it says:

25     "Only a few people will know about this deal."

Page 5894

 1             Who knew about it?

 2        A.   General Leslie, myself, and I'm not quite sure about who would

 3     have been the other person.  Probably -- if I was to speculate, probably

 4     somebody into the logistics section.

 5        Q.   In the logistics section?

 6        A.   Well, somebody would have to account for the fuel, I guess.

 7        Q.   And who would that be?

 8        A.   I don't recall.

 9        Q.   Did Captain Berikoff know about this?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Colonel, let me ask you, what -- you said that you didn't know if

12     the HV found out about this.  What would you expect the HV reaction to be

13     if they became aware of this transaction?

14             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't see the relevance of

15     that question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from that, it calls for speculation.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Okay, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Well, you would agree, Colonel, that over time, a degree of

20     suspicion and -- there was -- let me withdraw that.

21             You would agree that certainly after Operation Storm there was an

22     uncomfortable arrangement between the HV and the UN Sector South as to

23     how the relationship was going to proceed.  Isn't that so?

24        A.   I had very, very little dealing with HV troops after

25     Operation Storm.  For me, I had maybe one or two meeting with them,

Page 5895

 1     trying to found out the location of their minefield.  Most of the dealing

 2     with the HV was done, I believe, with lieutenant-colonel Tymchuk, which

 3     was the Senior Liaison Officer.

 4        Q.   Well, you were aware that the HV viewed the UN with suspicion,

 5     don't you?

 6        A.   I believe so.

 7        Q.   And part of that suspicion -- let's put aside what happened with

 8     the OPs and the fuel.  Part of that suspicion came with how the UN dealt

 9     with the Serbs that were in the UN Sector South camp after August the

10     4th, 1995.  Isn't that so?

11        A.   I don't understand the question.

12        Q.   Well, let me --

13             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I'm going to go into this at some

14     length.  I don't know if Your Honour wants to break now or I can keep

15     going on.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think to have the break now would be better.

17             Mr. Russo.

18             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour, I have been informed about an issue

19     regarding the address of the witness in the witness statements.  At this

20     point I would ask for them to be temporarily admitted under seal.  I will

21     have redacted versions uploaded so that his full address is not viewable

22     if that's all right with the Defense.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Absolutely, block all of it out, all the personal

24     information out.

25             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

Page 5896

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Everything.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this a general offer, Mr. Kehoe?

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Just Judge, look, I've been around this for a while.

 4     It's a general offer if you're talking about -- not the whole thing but

 5     you know, the personal information, the Colonel's address, et cetera, of

 6     course.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar, for the time being, the witness

 8     statements will be under seal, because the address of the witness

 9     appears.

10             Then we will have a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  For the parties' information, I will put a request

14     to the court management services to see whether there is any possibility

15     to get the clock in my room at a different time than 12 minutes before

16     11.00.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Colonel, just being go back, I noted for you that at line -- I

20     believe it is line 5, page 41, part of the suspicion came with how the UN

21     dealt with the Serbs that were in UN Sector South camp after August the

22     4th, 1995.  Isn't that so?

23             And you noted:  "I don't understand."

24             Let's explore the Serbs that came into the camp on the night of

25     the 4th, and let turn to your statement, if I may.  And that would be at

Page 5897

 1     page 4 of P546 and the fourth full paragraph down you note:  "A large

 2     number of displaced people were gathering outside the camp, our camp.

 3     They were asking for UN protection.  These people were either civilians

 4     or children.  There were no people of military service age."

 5             If we could scroll down to the bottom of that page.

 6             "Late on the evening of the 4th August 1995, we started to let

 7     the displaced people into the UN camp.  Each person was searched for

 8     weapons and their personal details recorded.  No Serb soldiers were

 9     allowed to enter the camp."

10             Do you see that, sir?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Now that last statement "no Serb soldiers were allowed to enter

13     the camp," that is not true, is it?

14        A.   I'm not sure.

15        Q.   Let's turn to -- if we can put 1D36-0001 on the screen.  And this

16     is an interview you did for Esprit De Corps entitled One Soldier's Story.

17     If we could go to the first page of that.  And then turn to the second

18     page.  And if we could just scroll up a bit.  The other way, please.

19     That's fine, right there.

20             You note, and this is then talking about the people coming into

21     the camp:  "Yes, there were civilians and some military.  Because we

22     opened up the camp to displaced people to provide security, there were a

23     few Serb soldiers that came to try to get refuge within our camp.  So we

24     said to them, 'If you want to come in, have you to disarm because if we

25     let you in with your weapons we're putting ourselves at risk.'

Page 5898

 1             "So the condition was that if you want to come in, disarm

 2     yourself and you will be like everybody else.  Some Serbs refused to

 3     disarm themselves so they stuck around outside the camp and those are

 4     some of the guys that were killed by a mortar round outside the camp."

 5             So, Colonel, you in fact did allow Serb soldiers into the camp,

 6     didn't you?

 7        A.   When you say "I," you mean the UN, not me personally.

 8        Q.   Well, let's go back to your statement.  In your statement - not

 9     the interview - in your statement of P546, where you say "no Serb

10     soldiers were allowed to enter the camp," that is not true, is it?

11        A.   My statement referred to the initial time when we let the people

12     into the camp.  When we first opened the gate, no Serb soldiers were

13     allowed into the camp.  That changed sometime during the night of -- of

14     the 5th or the 6th without my knowledge at that time.

15        Q.   So how many Serb soldiers were allowed into the camp?

16        A.   I wouldn't know.

17        Q.   Well, you do know that on the 5th -- by the way, were you present

18     when these people were searched coming in?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   I mean, did you have conversations with Captain Berikoff about

21     what they found on these people?

22        A.   No.  Because, for me, General Forand gave me the task to get the

23     camp organised.  My main task was to set up a compound to hold the

24     displaced people and organise them.  So I had my Slovak engineers

25     building the compound, getting accommodation sorted out.  I believe the

Page 5899

 1     military police were looking after security.  The civilian administrator

 2     and the staff were looking to feed the people, so there was a lot of

 3     activities going on and I couldn't be everywhere and look everywhere.  I

 4     had appointed two people -- two Serb, two -- one elderly gentleman and a

 5     lady as to the point of contact between the Serb and the UN, if we had

 6     any information to pass, I would pass that information to them and if

 7     they had any requests, those were the only two that were talking to me.

 8     So I was running all over the place and was pretty hard for me to keep

 9     track of who was at the gate, who was coming in or not.

10        Q.   Colonel, going back to your interview, going back to your

11     interview where you said that Serb soldiers disarmed, how many disarmed?

12        A.   I don't know.  That --  that information would have been the

13     discussion way after it happened with either Captain Hill, because we

14     were neighbour at one time recollecting and talking about wartime in --

15     in Croatia, and I wouldn't know how many but somebody was keeping the

16     records of all the name of the people coming in and the details, so I

17     would not know.

18        Q.   So who told that you Serb soldiers had been allowed into the

19     camp?

20        A.   I don't recall.

21        Q.   Now, Colonel, is there some reason why you didn't you include

22     this information in the witness statement you gave to the Office of the

23     Prosecutor?

24        A.   Probably because I didn't remember.

25        Q.   Now, Colonel, if we may, if I can address our attention to --

Page 5900

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Oh, yes, by the way, Your Honour, I do apologise for

 2     not tendering this article.  If I can just offer at this time 1D36-0001.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, could you tell us what the date is of

 5     this interview.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  I know it is it from the magazine called Esprit de

 7     Corps, Your Honour, and I will have to go back to the hard copy and find

 8     it.  Mr. Misetic is much more adept at moving through this than I, and he

 9     says he can find it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bellerose, I'm asking this, do you remember when

11     you gave that interview?

12             THE WITNESS:  Probably two years ago, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Because your last answer was that you left it out of

14     your statement, that's the statement given in 1999, because you might

15     have forgotten it, but apparently then in 2006 you still required what

16     happened.  That comes as a bit of a surprise.

17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, just after that -- after that

18     statement in 1999, Captain Hill and myself were neighbour for a period

19     of -- and we might have had some discussion and maybe talking about it,

20     you know, about what happened in Knin or whatever, just ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  When Mr. Kehoe said to you that -- that no Serb

22     soldiers were admitted into camp, that that was not true, then you

23     said -- I think you said maybe, or something.  Let me just check.

24             You said I think I'm not sure.  "I'm not sure," you said.  You

25     were sure at that time, weren't you?

Page 5901

 1             THE WITNESS:  I wasn't sure, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But now, what was said in that interview, are you

 3     sure about that or are you -- I'm just trying to find out --

 4             THE WITNESS:  For me, Your Honour, I don't remember seeing

 5     soldiers into the camp.  By soldiers I mean people wearing combat

 6     clothing, okay?  I just -- or person of fighting age.  At first, there

 7     was 400 displaced people at the gate.  I believe by the time they all

 8     left, there was over a thousand.  I was very busy, was all over the

 9     place.  I don't remember.  From the interview, could have been from

10     hearsay with talking with Captain Hill, you know, him saying that or

11     remembering something, but to be absolutely sure that I never saw,

12     well --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me ask the following.  Don't you think that it

14     would be have been appropriate when questions were asked about this to

15     say, Well, whatever I said in my statement, I later learned that they

16     were admitted, although it is hearsay information and it is not my

17     personal observation.  That would be the most complete answer which I

18     would have expected under those circumstances.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Now let us continue on if I can bring up P55.

22             MR. KEHOE:  By the way Judge, Mr. Misetic just informed me of the

23     date of that magazine article, which was August 1, 2006.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. KEHOE:  1 August 2006.

Page 5902

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think you were tendering it --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- when I intervened.  And there were no objections,

 4     Mr. Russo.

 5             Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D513.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D513 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Sorry, I thought the diary was D513.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honours.  This becomes D514.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Russo.  D514, being the

12     publication in the, what was it called, the corps --

13             MR. KEHOE:  Esprit De Corps.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Esprit De Corps, yes, is admitted into evidence.

15     Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could bring up P55.

17        Q.   This is a witness statement, Colonel, of a nurse at the hospital,

18     gave testimony for the Prosecution in this case.

19             If we can turn to the second page, paragraph 2, last sentence.

20     If we can blow that up just a bit, centre of the page.  Last two

21     sentences.  She's talking about the 5th:  "There were 35 patients left

22     behind in the hospital because they were not in a state where they could

23     have gotten on a bus or the trucks.  Most of these 35 were soldiers that

24     had been wounded on the previous day."

25             If we can go down to paragraph 4:  "We arrived at the UN camp and

Page 5903

 1     told the translator that we needed to evacuate the seriously wounded.

 2     Five minutes later, three UN vehicles came with us.  The UN vehicles were

 3     following our ambulance because they were worried about being shot at by

 4     RSK soldiers.  The UN vehicles picked up 15 of the wounded and we took

 5     them to the UN camp.  They came back and took 15 more seriously wounded."

 6             Now, Colonel, in addition to the soldiers that came in the night

 7     of the 4th into the 5th, the UN brought ARSK soldiers into the compound

 8     that you had set up inside the camp, didn't they?

 9        A.   I'm not aware of us sending ambulance to pick up wounded soldier

10     from the hospital and bring them in.  That's first time I hear about

11     that.

12        Q.   Well, is it your testimony, Colonel, that you knew nothing about

13     wounded soldiers being brought into the UN Sector South camp?  Is that

14     your testimony?

15        A.   I don't -- I don't remember that.

16        Q.   You don't remember?

17        A.   I don't remember.

18        Q.   Well, do you recall that UN Sector South ultimately turned over

19     38 individuals suspected of war crimes to the Republic of Croatia?  Do

20     you recall that?

21        A.   No.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             MR. KEHOE:

24        Q.   Just to clarify one answer that you gave that Mr. Misetic noted.

25             You said that you didn't remember the UN sending ambulances to

Page 5904

 1     pick up -- and I'm talking about line 14:  "I'm not aware of us sending

 2     ambulance to pick up wounded soldiers from the hospital and bring them

 3     in.  That's the first time I hear about that."

 4        A.   Mm-hm.

 5        Q.   Were you aware of the UN sending APCs to pick up wounded soldiers

 6     from the hospital?

 7        A.   No.  The only APC that I remember going there is was -- was on

 8     the 4th was I went over there with two APC, one M-113, one OT-64 to

 9     deliver medical supply.

10             MR. KEHOE:  If I may.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Colonel, one last question on this subject.  Do you know of

14     anyone from the UN that went to the hospital to pick up anybody on the

15     5th?

16        A.   No, I don't.

17        Q.   Now, you note in your statement, and we're talking about the

18     water issues that was addressed on direct examination, and you noted for

19     us that the water-pumping station had been hit by shell fire.

20        A.   I didn't mention that it was being hit by shell, the pumping, I

21     didn't say that.  I said some of the lines seem to have been damaged on

22     the ground because of shelling and that had been reported to me by some

23     UN engineer.

24        Q.   When you got there, you did manage to restore the water, didn't

25     you, the water flow?

Page 5905

 1        A.   Yes, we did.

 2        Q.   Now, when this was going on, sir, was there a public debate about

 3     the difficult circumstances under which UN Sector South found itself and

 4     that situations like water or having water on the base were quite

 5     desperate?  And I refer you to page 5, paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4, first full

 6     line.

 7             Do you see that:  "The Croats kept us in the camp for a

 8     considerable time."

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  "The Croats kept us in the UN camp for some considerable

11     time.  We started to run out of water and things were quite desperate."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And that is approximately the 9th of August?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Who is Major Balfour?

17        A.   Major Balfour was one of the staff officer in the headquarter.

18        Q.   Did you know him?

19        A.   I know of him, not very well, but I know -- I know him.

20        Q.   Let me show you D333.

21             MR. KEHOE:  If we could blow up this -- or just take a look at

22     this just generally.

23        Q.   This is an UN Sector South from HQ Sector South and goes to the

24     National Defence headquarters of Canada -- to Canada dated 9 August 1995,

25     the day you left the camp.

Page 5906

 1             If I can go to bottom of this at 1800 in the third sentence.  "I

 2     suspect that UNPF sitreps may exaggerate the situation -- " let me back

 3     up there.

 4             "Extra page will answer your water/food question.  I suspect that

 5     UNPF sitreps may exaggerate the situation for political/diplomatic

 6     effect.  No real problem here with drinking water or food, even feeding

 7     700 plus refugees."

 8             Now, Colonel, during this time was UN Sector South publicly

 9     complaining about the Croatians keeping UN in their camp with water

10     running out when in fact water was not running out and was being

11     exaggerated for political and diplomatic effect?

12        A.   As far as I'm concerned, water was a problem.  And if we look at

13     the sitrep from Mr. Major Balfour, it also say domestic water was a

14     concern and may become a crisis if power is not restored to Knin.  I

15     don't believe that we were crying wolf, saying that we had a problem when

16     we didn't.  Because from what I recall from my time in Croatia, usually

17     our supply used to come on Friday.  The offensive started on Friday and

18     we didn't get our resupply then.

19             So we -- as far as I'm concerned we never got the resupply for

20     that week, so we were continuing to feed our own people and people from

21     the refugees with very little food that we had.  Yes, the UNHCR opened up

22     their stores so we could get flour so with that flour we were able to

23     make some bread.  But as far as I'm concerned we were having a problem

24     with water.

25        Q.   Colonel, what was major Balfour's position at this time?

Page 5907

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Objection, Your Honour.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  What's his position.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Formal position, I take it.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  His formal position.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry.  I thought he was asking for an opinion or

 6     impression about something.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  No, no, no.  I apologise.  Wasn't a clear question, I

 8     agree.

 9        Q.   What was his position in UN Sector South?

10        A.   Major Balfour was a staff officer in the headquarters.  I believe

11     he worked for -- at the time he was a captain, I believe he worked for

12     Major Dussault, the operation officer.

13        Q.   At this point he is a major; do you see?

14        A.   I guess he is, yeah.

15        Q.   Isn't it a fact that Balfour was working for General Forand at

16     this time?

17        A.   He was either working for General Forand or For Major Dussault,

18     it was one of the two.  I don't fully recall.

19        Q.   We'll move on.

20             MR. KEHOE:  If I may just have one second.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   I want to move back, Colonel, to the period of time that just

24     prior to Operation Storm and you mentioned previously in your diary about

25     the general mobilisation that had taken place on the 28th.

Page 5908

 1             And, if I may, turning back to your diary, if I can get the

 2     correct exhibit number.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  What is that number?  If I can call it up by the

 4     right number.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  It's D513.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Russo.

 7        Q.   Now, in your diary you note that -- and this is at -- for

 8     July 28th.  It would be page 05354629.  4620, excuse me.

 9             If we can just go back one page.

10             Now, Colonel, this is the 28th, if we can scroll up that bottom

11     28th entry, this is the day that we referred to previously, the 28th,

12     where you note that the fall of Grahovo had taken place and that general

13     mobilisation had likewise taken place.

14             And let us turn to the next page, at the top.  Also on the

15     28th --

16             Can we scroll that down.

17             Okay.  You note that the locals are leaving the area.

18             Now, Colonel, were you aware that on the 28th of July the

19     president of the Krajina Serb, Milan Martic had declared a state of war?

20        A.   No, I wasn't aware.

21        Q.   Staying with this, he said:  "Locals are leaving the area."

22             And if we can turn down to the next item on the 29th you note

23     again:  "The people in Knin are nervous.  A lot of them are leaving town,

24     and refugees from Bosansko Grahovo are arriving."

25             Tell me how you came to learn that the locals were leaving town.

Page 5909

 1        A.   That could have been one from one of the staff meeting in the

 2     morning that the information would have been passed on.

 3        Q.   Well, did you know of it yourself?

 4        A.   Not that I recall, no.

 5        Q.   Well, let me turn your attention to --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  And if I can just go into private session, Judge,

 7     because this is a closed session witness, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5910











11  Page 5910 redacted. Private session.















Page 5911

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   And just for the record, Judge, I think that anything talking

12     about that particular exhibit that we can -- on -- I can go back and take

13     a look at the transcript, Your Honour, and tell you when we can go back

14     into open session, because I think -- I don't think I alerted Your

15     Honour --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is -- to change from private session to

17     open session is a rather difficult exercise, but so therefore let's see

18     what the importance is or whether there is any other way to make clear to

19     the public what happened.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  But for the record I could go back

21     to the transcript and say what questions need not be in private session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5912

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We move back into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5913











11  Page 5913 redacted. Private session.















Page 5914

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Now, Colonel, in your statement on page 3, paragraph 3, actually

14     the second full paragraph, you note that you spoke to Colonel Leslie and

15     Major Mark Dussault at 2300 hours on the 3rd of August and they told you

16     that something was going to happen the next day.  Is that right?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   So the conclusion of the individuals there was that the war was

19     going to start the following day.  Isn't that right?

20        A.   I guess so.

21        Q.   Could you tell me what steps Colonel Leslie took after he

22     received this information to alert all UN personnel that war was going to

23     commence the next morning?

24        A.   I don't remember any step that he took.

25        Q.   Well, at that time, did he -- you recall him sending APCs out,

Page 5915

 1     like he ordered you the next day to pick up UN personnel that were in the

 2     town?

 3        A.   I don't remember that, no.

 4        Q.   So you don't remember him doing anything?

 5        A.   No.  What I remember is him and Major Dussault were talking.  I

 6     stood by, said -- you know, we talked a little bit, said something might

 7     happen tomorrow.  They're not sure, and I said, well, I will keep my ears

 8     open and I went to my -- to bed.

 9        Q.   Did you ever ask Colonel Leslie after the fact why he didn't --

10     didn't call in a code red and bring everybody back in as soon as he got

11     that?

12        A.   No, I didn't.

13        Q.   Let's turn our attention to the trip you took into Knin on the

14     4th.  And this would be, according to your statement P545, between 1600

15     and 1800 hours.

16             And if we may, if we could pull up P62, I believe it is, which

17     should be a blank overhead of Knin.

18             While we're bringing up this up, Colonel, the reason why you

19     couldn't go out earlier was because the Serbs had mined the front of the

20     camp.  Is that right?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And I think you also say during the course of your statement - I

23     believe it is it on page 4 - that a Russian officer, and I think it is

24     the bottom of page 3, last paragraph, that one of the Russian members of

25     UNMO left the camp with someone else and walked into Knin.

Page 5916

 1             Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So in the middle of the shelling this UNMO walks into Knin.  Is

 4     that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And where did he go?

 7        A.   I believe he went to the Serb headquarters.

 8        Q.   And did he walk back?

 9        A.   I wasn't there when he came back.  I just saw him leaving,

10     walking.  I don't remember how he came back.

11        Q.   Now, just turning our attention to P62, which is an overhead of

12     Knin, and just take a second to orient yourself.  I mean, it is the same

13     map as you drew on previously in P547.  But if we can and with the

14     assistance of the usher, could you map for us, Colonel, the path that you

15     followed and I believe our colour is blue, isn't it.  I believe we're

16     using a blue marker.  Could you map for us the path that you took that

17     time between 1600 and 1800 on the 4th?

18        A.   That's to go to the hospital?

19        Q.   I think you actually -- didn't you say you stopped at the RSK HQ,

20     dropped off General Forand and then went on to the hospital.

21        A.   Correct.  I cannot map the path, because I was inside the APC,

22     okay?  I wasn't the guy in the cupola directing the driver where to go.

23     So was inside the vehicle.  But I remember some of the area where we did

24     stop.

25        Q.   So you can't tell us based -- were you down in the APC the entire

Page 5917

 1     time?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So what was on that road as you were travelling, you didn't see?

 4        A.   I didn't see it.  What I saw is when we were stopped and that's

 5     when I got out of the APC.

 6        Q.   Now, when you went to the hospital, and we are looking at page 4

 7     of paragraph 4, and that would be the first paragraph -- not the

 8     carry-over paragraph on 4, it would be the first full paragraph, you

 9     observe Serb soldiers in uniform, didn't you?

10        A.   Injured, yes.

11        Q.   Injured.

12        A.   Well --

13        Q.   You concluded that they were Serb soldiers is the point.

14        A.   Yeah.  Because I believe that's because they might be wearing

15     some fatigues, uniform.

16        Q.   Now, likewise, later on in the day when you saw people that were

17     dead on the street, you saw people that were in uniform and I think you

18     responded to Judge Orie that you concluded that they were soldiers as

19     well?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, you note in this -- in your statement that, if I may, and

22     I'm just -- that you note that it looked as if the hospital had been

23     damaged, looked as if one corner of the hospital had been hit by a shell,

24     it was damaged.

25             Was it?

Page 5918

 1        A.   From what I recall, yes.

 2        Q.   Did you ever learn any information from any other member of the

 3     UN that the -- that UN -- excuse me, that the hospital in Knin had been

 4     hit by a shell, anyone?

 5        A.   Not that I recall.

 6        Q.   Now, you note, and I'm just going through your statement, again,

 7     on page 4 and this is the second full paragraph:  "Driving through Knin

 8     on this mission, I saw a great deal of devastation."

 9             Now, use P62 that is on the screen, sir, and tell us where you

10     saw this great devastation.

11             MR. KEHOE:  If we could use the assistance of the usher.

12        Q.   Now, let's mark the first one A and the second one B, all right,

13     and C.

14        A.   [Marks].

15        Q.   Let's start with A.  What were you doing in the area marked A?

16        A.   I believe we were trying to get civilian UN personnel and UN

17     police.

18        Q.   Who?

19        A.   I don't remember the names.  Just one that I remember, it's one

20     former Canadian -- well, a RCMP, Norm Boucher, but I don't remember

21     exactly where he lived, so ...

22        Q.   So you don't know if Mr. Boucher lived in the area marked as A?

23        A.   Or it could be B.

24        Q.   Or B.

25        A.   Or B.  It just -- I don't exactly remember.

Page 5919

 1        Q.   In relation to A do you know where the police station is?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Do you know where the Sanjak barracks is?

 4        A.   What is the Sanjak?  Is that what we refer to as the north

 5     barrack?

 6        Q.   North barracks -- well, you can identify it.  Can you see where

 7     the north barracks is?  It's got a tag on it.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you know where the Sanjak barracks is?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Who were you travelling with in the APC when you went to pick

12     these people up?

13        A.   There was lieutenant, Jordanian that was living the M-113.  I

14     don't remember his name.  He is the one that had the street address and

15     the OT-64 was driven by Slovak or Czech soldiers that were following the

16     113.

17        Q.   So, Colonel, can you give us the name of anybody that was in

18     either of these APCs that you were travelling in?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Let's turn our attention back to A.  Is that a location where you

21     saw dead soldiers in uniform or people in uniform along with others?

22        A.   I believe in A and B, in both.

23        Q.   So there were soldiers in both A and B when you observed this --

24     these people dead.  Is that right?

25        A.   I believe so.

Page 5920

 1        Q.   Are you aware of the military facilities that were located around

 2     B?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Now, let's turn our attention to C.  Did you see dead soldiers

 5     there?

 6        A.   I cannot recall.

 7        Q.   Do you know the circumstances under which these people died?

 8        A.   I didn't go and investigate why.  It was just getting out of the

 9     APC while some of the people were with me going to the building and I was

10     just looking around and making sure that we were safe and I didn't go

11     close to them or investigate.

12        Q.   Suffice it so say, you have no knowledge as to the circumstances

13     under which any of these people died, be it people in uniform or not in

14     uniform, do you?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Let us talk about the military targets that you talked about in

17     both of your statement and direct examination.

18             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry.  Your Honour, I'll offer into evidence

19     this -- this chart that is on the screen with the blue writing on it.

20             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D515.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D515 is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. KEHOE:

25        Q.   Now, Colonel, let's talk a bit about the shelling on the 5th and

Page 5921

 1     4th if we may and then first when the shelling began at 5.00 on the 4th,

 2     you went down to a bunker, didn't you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And the shelling that you observed was from the balcony from UN

 5     Sector South headquarters.  Isn't that right?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And you went up to that balcony on one occasion, on the 4th,

 8     didn't you?

 9        A.   Maybe once or twice.  I cannot recall for sure.

10        Q.   Well, let me turn your attention to your statement.  At page 3,

11     P546, third full paragraph after the carry-over paragraph, the

12     paragraph beginning:  "At about 0500 ... "

13             MR. KEHOE:  If we can bring that up.  If we can go to the middle

14     of the page.

15        Q.   Do you see that, Colonel?  At one time that day Captain

16     Gilbert --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- was observing where the shells were landing, this was from the

19     top floor of the headquarters.

20             Before I ask the next question, Colonel, did captain Gilbert tell

21     you about observing and chronicling outgoing fire on the 4th?  Did he

22     tell you that?

23        A.   I don't remember.  I just remember that he had a pen and a piece

24     of paper and I think he was recording some shellings.  But I don't

25     remember him telling me outgoing.

Page 5922

 1        Q.   But he was writing it down when you were up there?

 2        A.   He was writing, yeah.

 3        Q.   Now, note "I joined him one time."  See that?

 4             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour, I believe it says "I joined him at

 5     one time."

 6             MR. KEHOE:  At one time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That is not the same.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I understand.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   You were up with Captain Gilbert one time for 15 minutes.  Isn't

12     that right?

13        A.   Probably with Captain Gilbert one time, yeah.

14        Q.   Who were you with any other time?

15        A.   I believe that there was one time there was a Kathy Langham might

16     have been there one time.

17        Q.   Who was that?

18        A.   I believe her name is Kathy Langham.  She was one of the UN

19     civilian employee.

20        Q.   She was up there with you?

21        A.   I believe at one time, yeah.

22        Q.   And what time of day was this?

23        A.   I mean, it has been 13 years.  I don't remember.

24        Q.   Well, the rest of time you were in the bunker.  Isn't that right?

25        A.   No.

Page 5923

 1        Q.   You were not?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   When did you get out of the bunker?

 4        A.   I got out of bunker about -- I was in the bunker probably about

 5     an hour, hour and a half, and -- the bunk that I was in that was

 6     basically a sea container and with sandbag on the side and on the top and

 7     after being there, for about an hour, hour and a half I decided maybe I

 8     should go to headquarters where everybody was, so I ran outside and went

 9     to the headquarters to see what was happening.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Well, I don't know if that means anything, Judge.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I can tell you, for these who are not aware, the

12     testing of the civilian warning system takes place the first Monday of

13     every month at 12.00 exactly.

14             MR. KEHOE:  I will set my watch by that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   Well, let us turn our attention to P547 first, and that is

18     your -- the chart put in by the Prosecution.  If we can orient that.

19             Looking at point A, the Prosecution, in its summation, said you

20     observed the shelling going into point A while you were on the balcony.

21     Is that right?

22        A.   I believe so.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Now, let us turn to P545.  Prosecution 545.  Can we

24     go to the next page, please.

25        Q.   Colonel, this is your first statement of November 1st, 1,

Page 5924

 1     November 1995.  You wrote this, did you not?

 2        A.   Yes, I.

 3        Q.   And you note at point A there were three rounds on the hill east

 4     of Knin.  What hill are you talking about?

 5             And if we can, we can go back to P547.  If we can flip back to

 6     P547.

 7        A.   That's the one that, on a previous -- that was identified as area

 8     A, on the east side of the hill and not where there was meant -- English

 9     is my second language.  What was meant was on the east side of the hill

10     in Knin grid, so ... that's basically area A.

11        Q.   Well, the area A -- so you saw it falling on the hill.  Is that

12     right?

13        A.   I believe so.

14        Q.   Okay.  Let us turn your attention first to D102.  If we can

15     orient that.  If I may, just orient you just for your moment, Colonel,

16     the parliament building is 7 at the bottom of the page.

17        A.   Okay.

18        Q.   And we will show you a photograph in a second to orient you yet

19     further.

20             Are you familiar with these various locations that are in the

21     area of the parliament building?  And I'm talking about 1 through 12, and

22     just look through them, if you will.  I don't think there is any need to

23     read them.

24        A.   I wasn't aware of that information.

25        Q.   Okay, sir.  Let us turn our attention to D36-0004.

Page 5925

 1             Now, this is the vantage point from the balcony at the UN

 2     headquarters, isn't it?

 3        A.   No.  That looked more like from the first floor than the top

 4     floor.

 5        Q.   But it is from the vantage point of the UN, where UN Sector South

 6     is.  You see the orientation point in the middle, the marking point of

 7     the RSK parliament.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, I see that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now you the shelling that you observed that you put as

10     point A on the hill when you noted in your statement that it was on the

11     hill the east of Knin, or the hill at the east side of Knin, would that

12     be in the area that is to -- well, you tell us.  I mean, what area are

13     you talking about?  Is it to the left of this line where the hill goes

14     up?

15             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry, if we're going to refer to the line, can

16     we just refer to which line?

17             MR. KEHOE:  The left line, the left dotted line, but I want him

18     to tell us.

19             THE WITNESS:  That would be roughly left of that line.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Okay.  So if it is left of the line it is in fact up on the hill

22     itself, isn't it?

23        A.   It is it hard to say from that picture.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, whether it is up the hill depends on what

25     you take as your point of reference, it is further up or further down, if

Page 5926

 1     you're talking about the top, also depending on where exactly the witness

 2     observed what he observed.  So, therefore, on the hill, not on the hill

 3     is not very precise and doesn't assist greatly.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  Let us go down to the next chart, if I may,

 6     1D36-0005.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, the firing that was going on, using as again your

 8     reference point down at the UN and with these other locations, it's a

 9     fact, sir, when you saw shelling going into the area you designate as A,

10     you don't know what they were firing at, do you?

11        A.   No, I don't.

12        Q.   And you don't know what they hit?

13        A.   No, I don't.

14        Q.   So for all you know, these areas circled here on this chart,

15     1D36-0005, could have been the locations that were hit when you observed

16     fire coming in on the morning of the 4th, right?

17        A.   Could have been.

18             MR. KEHOE:  If I might have one moment, Your Honour.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. KEHOE:  If I could put up finally 1D36-000 -- 0036 excuse me.

21     1D36-0006

22        Q.   Now, sir, again, looking at this chart, again, at the bottom of

23     the page is the -- where the UN camp is.  You gave us a grid reference at

24     the top of grid reference 970790.

25             Now is that also a location that you observed being shelled from

Page 5927

 1     the balcony at the UN?

 2        A.   I believe so.

 3        Q.   And do you have any idea what was actually hit when that shelling

 4     took place?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time I will offer into evidence

 7     1D36-0004, 1D36-0005 1D36-0006.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, these become Exhibit D516 through

12     D518, respectively.

13             MR. KEHOE:  If we can turn our attention to D131.  I'm sorry.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it assist you to have --

15             MR. KEHOE:  I apologise.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D516 through D518 are admitted into evidence.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour, I apologise for getting ahead

19     of myself there.  Can I do D131?

20        Q.   Now, as we bring this up, Colonel, let me reference you back to

21     your direct testimony as well your statement, you say, in my opinion, the

22     shelling of Knin was carried out -- this is on page 7, I apologise, the

23     second-to-last paragraph.  Page 7 of P546.

24             You say that:  "In my opinion, the shelling of Knin was carried

25     out to drive away the civilian population.  The shelling was not directed

Page 5928

 1     at any military targets."

 2             Now, let's take that one by one if we can as quickly as we can.

 3     I want to take a look at it this first chart that's designated and

 4     encircled.  The first location, sir, is A-1, the northern barracks,

 5     that's what you talked about, right, as a target?

 6        A.   Yeah, if that is the northern barracks, yes.

 7        Q.   We can zoom in there if you want, but orient yourself with the UN

 8     building at the bottom.  Do you see that as the northern barracks?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And the B-1 at the bottom, that's the ARSK headquarters, isn't

11     it?

12        A.   I believe so.

13        Q.   Let's go to the next chart.

14             Now, we've added what is added for you slide by slide has a plus

15     mark in front of it.  Do you see the parliament building at B-8.  You're

16     familiar with that?

17        A.   I believe so, yes.

18        Q.   And how about B-10, the police station.  Do you know that?

19        A.   No, I don't.

20        Q.   Now, C-3 was an artillery position behind your camp.  You know

21     about that, didn't you?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   So you didn't know there was an artillery position behind your

24     camp?

25        A.   I didn't.

Page 5929

 1        Q.   Now, how about the factory, the Agroprerada, excuse me,

 2     Agroprerada depot at D-2, were you aware of that near the train station?

 3        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.

 4        Q.   And of course, you know that you have E-6 which is the train

 5     station management wagons tracks?  Do you see that?  You were aware of

 6     that.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Let's turn to the next layer, talking about ARSK troop bases and

 9     barracks.  No, it's the next -- it was the slide back.

10             If we can go ahead one.

11             Okay.  Looking at the blue box on the left-hand side, Colonel, we

12     mentioned the northern barracks is A-1.  A-2 is the Senjak barracks.  Are

13     you familiar with the Senjak barracks being run by the ARSK?

14        A.   No, I wasn't aware of it.

15        Q.   How about A-3, the southern barracks, that was next to you, you

16     were aware of that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And A-4, which was the high school, are you aware of a Serb

19     military unit being garrisoned at A-4 and that they had a mortar

20     emplacement there on the 4th of August?

21        A.   I wasn't aware of that.

22        Q.   Let go to A-5, which is the ARSK special police.  Are you aware

23     of that location?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Let's turn to the next slide.  This would be dealing with RSK

Page 5930

 1     command and control and power.  Let's talk about the lower left green

 2     box.  We talked previously about B-1, the ARSK HQ.  Let's talk about B-2,

 3     ARSK -- which is part of the defence ministry, it's known as the old

 4     hospital.  Were you aware that was being used by the ARSK?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   B-3 again, the same item called the seniors hotel, were you aware

 7     that was being used by the ARSK?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   How about B -- just read it down.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it be better solution if you would give the

13     witness the list of all what you consider to be military targets and to

14     ask him simple questions after the break, one of them, first of all, were

15     you aware of the presence of the facilities described there; second, if

16     you were aware of them, is there any reason why you did not consider them

17     to be potential military targets.

18             MR. KEHOE:  I do that quickly, Judge, I can go to the last side

19     which has all of them.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we're still reading half in green but --

21             MR. KEHOE:  We can go to the last slide, which has all of them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  All of them, yes.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Let's go to -- if we can go I guess three slides

24     into -- one prior to that.  That one.  It is it 0396, I'm being told.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  This is the full list.

Page 5931

 1             MR. KEHOE:  That's the full list.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Give that to the witness and I mean it may be clear

 3     to him now what the questions are.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  If I can just give him a moment just to review the

 5     entire list.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we could also do that.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the -- for me, the time I was there,

 8     the only one I was aware of was the south barracks, the ARSK headquarters

 9     downtown Knin, and the northern barracks.  Everything else, I was not

10     aware of that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you did not consider any of the others as

12     to their existence or to their potential as a military target when you

13     formed your opinion about that there was no -- it wasn't where military

14     targets were.

15             THE WITNESS:  I wasn't aware of the existence of those other --

16     other location0.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, we can move on.

19        Q.   Just moving ahead, are you familiar with the concept, Colonel, of

20     mobile targets?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And what are mobile targets, what is your understanding of that?

23        A.   Well, it's -- let's say a piece of equipment, like tracked

24     artillery that one minute it is in one location, fire a couple of rounds,

25     and then redeploy to a different location.  Is that what you're

Page 5932

 1     referring to?

 2        Q.   And -- yes, sir.  And then likewise would include soldiers on

 3     foot as well, being moving through an area.  Isn't that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, let us just briefly touch on that in D124.

 6             D124 is a situation report of 5 August 1995.  And if we could go

 7     to the bottom of that page first.

 8             Now just as a reference point there, it notes at the bottom that

 9     Serbs towns, Benkovac, Gracac, Vrlika, Drnis are taken by HV forces,

10     early in the morning Serbs started massive withdrawal of combat forces

11     from the general area Benkovac and Kistanje towards the general direction

12     of Knin.

13             If we could just move up two more pages.  One more page, please,

14     and towards the bottom is the CanBat, Canadian Battalion AOR.  We don't

15     need to read that but if you can take a look at it, Colonel, and ...

16             What CanBat reports is a significant amount of military equipment

17     from the ARSK moving towards the general direction of Knin.  Do you see

18     that, sir?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   And just turn over to the next page, just quickly.

21             Likewise, more equipment moving towards Knin and if you look

22     towards the top you see where it is headed towards Knin.

23             Now, Colonel, those particular pieces, do you know if they moved

24     through Knin at any time during the 4th or the 5th of August, 1995?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 5933

 1        Q.   Well, if they did, they certainly would be movable targets that

 2     were open for shelling by the HV, wouldn't they?

 3             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, if he is going to ask the

 4     witness what is appropriate to shell, then we would certainly like to

 5     investigate that on redirect.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  I'm asking if it is a movable target and if it's

 7     going through the Knin on the 4th or 5th, if the HV could shell it.

 8     Given what the counsel asked on direct examination, I don't see anything

 9     improper in that.

10             MR. RUSSO:  I'm not suggesting it is improper.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is not that easy, Mr. Kehoe.  You know

12     that, of course, it very much depends on where they were driving, what

13     kind of weaponry was used, et cetera.  So if you would say whether --

14     apart from that, it is based on the assumption, if they were there, could

15     they have been shelled or I would prefer --

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, that's fine.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- being attacked.  I take it that moving troops in

18     itself, whatever the witness would say, if they are taking active part in

19     operations, that there's a great likelihood that they are legitimate

20     military targets.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And then the difficult part starts.  Yes?  Who they

23     were, where they were, what other issues issue, et cetera, so I take it

24     that the witness would not disagree with what I just said, would you?

25             THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't -- I would not disagree.

Page 5934

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's why we have --

 2             THE WITNESS:  The interesting thing is how do you know where they

 3     are.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because that's the assumption in the question,

 5     and of course, you would have to establish that to answer some of the

 6     follow-up questions.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Now you note the during the course of your direct examination,

10     and pardon me if I misquote this but I trust I will get the general idea,

11     that one of the reasons that you thought that this shelling was intended

12     to drive out the civilian population is because military targets weren't

13     seriously damaged by the artillery attack?

14             Is that your position?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Let us turn our attention to D389.

17             This is a document from the RSK headquarters from the 4th of

18     August, 1995, and it discusses the shelling commencing on 4 August 1995.

19     And if we can look at the fourth paragraph down Knin was attacked by

20     Livansko Polje.

21             Do you see that, sir?

22        A.   I'm not sure.

23        Q.   Okay.  It's the middle of the page.  It says Knin was attacked --

24        A.   Okay, yes, I do, okay.

25        Q.   Just read that with me, Knin was attacked -- and by the way, just

Page 5935

 1     to reference you again, Colonel, this is an ARSK document.  Knin was

 2     attacked from the Livansko polje from different directions and by the

 3     time this information was drafted between 200 and 300 rounds of different

 4     calibre impacted on the town.  The first strike was carried out on the

 5     building of the SVK General Staff which suffered great materiel damage

 6     with the fleet of vehicles almost completely deployed.  Later the fire

 7     was transferred on the military barracks, 1300, Kaplara, the Tvik

 8     factory, railway intersection, residential buildings and the area beneath

 9     the Knin fortress, the item that we looked at previously in D102.

10             Were you aware, sir, that the initial barrage of fire had in fact

11     damaged these particular locations, the SVK General Staff the vehicles,

12     military barracks, Tvik factory, were you aware of that?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Let me, can if I will, and Your Honour, if I can just go into

15     private session, briefly.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. KEHOE:  If can I take a break right now -- I will do either

18     one, Judge, whatever you want to do.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps that would be the better solution,

20     because I take it that have you to ask a couple of questions.

21             MR. KEHOE:  I have to ask a couple of questions about

22     testimony --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and since it is 12.30, we'd prefer to have a

24     break first.

25             We will have a break and we will resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

Page 5936

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we briefly go into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5937











11  Page 5937 redacted. Private session.















Page 5938

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

24             MR. KEHOE:

25        Q.   This is a provisional assessment done by the UNMOs and if we look

Page 5939

 1     down at paragraph 2 it notes:  "In general the shelling was concentrated

 2     against military objectives.  The damages caused by shelling to civilian

 3     establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of military

 4     objectives.  Only few, three to five, impacts is observed in other urban

 5     areas."

 6             Were you aware of this assessment, Colonel?

 7        A.   No, I wasn't.

 8        Q.   You noted during the course of your testimony -- excuse me.  And

 9     this would be, I should not your testimony, I should say your statement,

10     P546, page 6, bottom of the page, starting with the paragraph:  "I did

11     not notice."

12             Just the last paragraph, yeah, that's it.

13             "Brigadier-general Forand tasked CIVPOL with preparing a report

14     on the damage that had been caused throughout Sector South."

15             Do you see that, Colonel?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Did you see the results of that report?

18        A.   No, I never did.

19        Q.   Were you ever informed that the results of that report were

20     consistent with the provisional assessment?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Now, you also noted for us during the course of your testimony

23     that the shelling constituted deliberate harassment not only on the 4th

24     but that the 5th was -- shelling on the 5th was unnecessary.  Do you

25     recall saying that?

Page 5940

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now the fighting still continued between the RSK and the HV

 3     through the evening of the 4th, into the 5th, didn't it?

 4        A.   I cannot say if it did or did not.  I was inside the compound so

 5     I mean we could hear artillery.  I don't remember if we did hear small

 6     arms or not, but --

 7        Q.   Let me show you D106.  And this is an interview with General

 8     Mrksic and Belgrade Radio on 4 August 1995 at 2130 hours.  The fourth

 9     delineation down with General Mrksic:  "No.  We are maintaining contact,

10     our forces withdrew to the positions for the direct defence of Knin.  The

11     other range units are still successfully holding their positions."

12             If we can move further down that page.

13             Seven lines from the bottom, "if the VRS army of the Republika

14     Srpska succeeds in putting pressure on the forces attacking in the

15     direction Grahovo-Knin, we shall then stabilize the defense and switch on

16     the counterattack."

17             Let me show you one last item.  Actually, I can read it.  It's on

18     the video of General Leslie.  This would be from D123.  There is no need

19     to listen to the video but he notes: "At 2340 hours on the 4th, taking

20     Knin, no, we have no reports of Croatians being in direct fire range of

21     Knin and there are still a lot of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding

22     hills."

23             So, Colonel, was it your understanding that through the evening

24     of the 4th and going on the 5th there continued to be fighting between

25     the RSK and the HV?

Page 5941

 1        A.   I really don't know.  You got to understand that --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 3             Please continue.

 4             THE WITNESS:  You have to understand that I didn't go too often

 5     in the command centre of HQ Sector South.  I was very busy, you know,

 6     doing engineer-related work inside the camp.  So if reports were coming

 7     in from various sources, I wasn't aware of them.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   Well, on the 5th -- I'm sorry.  On the 5th, Colonel, did you know

10     or did you observe RSK military returning from the front lines through

11     Knin?

12        A.   No, I did not.

13        Q.   So it would be fair to say, Colonel, that on the 5th you were

14     unaware of the military situation that was ongoing between the HV and the

15     ARSK.  Isn't that right?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Now, Colonel, you mentioned going through the town of Knin on the

18     9th, I believe, which is where you -- and I'm talking about page 5,

19     fourth full paragraph down, where you viewed the devastation everywhere

20     in Knin town.

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   And that, again, is in P546.

23             Let me just refer to you a couple of matters, and first D29.

24     Second paragraph.  This is a cable from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan.

25     Paragraph 2:  "My overall impression of the town in Knin is that it

Page 5942

 1     suffered considerable damage from artillery fire which is evident in the

 2     streets where I observed many shops with broken window, cars damaged and

 3     off the road, artillery shell holes in the road.  However, the damage to

 4     the town's structures, while noticeable, was less than I anticipated.

 5     Large numbers of homes and buildings were left untouched by the

 6     fighting."

 7             If I may, a witness, Mr. Flynn, a Prosecution witness who was a

 8     HRAT representative.  This is on page 1156, testimony before this Court

 9     on 10 April 2008, line 7.  During his visit Mr. Akashi met a number of

10     people and also toured Knin, as you told us yesterday?

11             "Answer:  Yes."

12             "Question:  His overall impression of the town of Knin is that it

13     suffered considerable damage from artillery fire," and he gives his

14     observations.  "However, the damage to the town structures, while

15     noticeable, was less than I anticipated."

16             "Would that accord -- talking to Mr. Flynn, would that accord

17     with your observations of Knin?"

18             "Yes."

19             Question, he goes on to say, "Large numbers of homes and

20     buildings were left untouched by the fighting.  Would that accord with

21     your observations?"

22             "Answer:  Yes."

23             Ambassador Galbraith, page 5 --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

25             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry.

Page 5943

 1        Q.   Ambassador Galbraith at 24 June 2008, page 5044, line 19:  "In

 2     any event so we had -- we had people there I think on the 7th and 9th of

 3     August looking at what had happened in Knin."

 4             The 9th of August is was when you went down there, right, sir?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   "Looking at what had happened, and all of them reported to me

 7     that the damage from the shelling was not extensive, in fact that things

 8     were largely undamaged and that windows were broken, that sort of thing

 9     had happened and there was no -- there was no kind of systematic effort

10     to destroy Knin."

11             Lastly, if we can turn our attention to D66, and after we go

12     through these, I'll ask you a question, Colonel.

13             Going to the bottom of that page, this is a US cable dated 14

14     August 1995, notes at downtown Knin:  "Although Knin was reportedly

15     heavily shelled in the early hours of the hostilities few downtown areas

16     and residential buildings showed signs of shell damage."

17             As you sit here, Colonel, is it that you disagree with all these

18     other individuals who made these observations during the same time-frame

19     when you were in Knin after the end of Operation Storm?

20        A.   I do not disagree.  What I would like to say is that I never

21     really counted all the building and it's just like if somebody is to

22     assess the stress level on an individual, we will be looking at the

23     stress at the different level, you know, so certain situation, you might

24     find very stressful and I might not, or the other way around.  I don't

25     know what they use as a reference.  But for me, I stand by my statement.

Page 5944

 1        Q.   Colonel, had you ever been in combat before prior to this?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Let us change our focus for one moment to talking about the

 4     looting that you talked about in your statement.  And that would again be

 5     on page 5.

 6             Colonel, you mentioned looting and the clothing being thrown out.

 7     Did you personally see a looting?

 8        A.   No, I did not.

 9        Q.   Do you know whether or not the law enforcement or soldiers that

10     were searching these places were looking for weapons, and, if so, did

11     they find any?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   So you don't know the circumstances of the looting that you

14     talked about in your statement?

15        A.   No.  Well, for me in my statement I was referring to that people

16     had been going through various buildings or most of the building,

17     clothing, furniture had been thrown out of the window and not knowing

18     what was there prior, I just assumed that it was looting had taken place.

19        Q.   You assumed that, but you didn't know if it was a search for

20     weapons or anything else?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And going through a city and any type of fighting in the built-up

23     area, you would expect soldiers to search apartments looking for weapons,

24     wouldn't you?

25        A.   I assume so.

Page 5945

 1        Q.   Now, the last topic we had to talk about is the topic that you

 2     referred to with regard to the soldier that you examined up -- by one of

 3     the observation posts and you mention it on page 5.  This is on the

 4     12th of August, 1995.

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Now, mentioned to us on direct examination that have you no

 7     forensic background; is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   And what you observed was a RSK soldier lying flat on the ground

10     with a gunshot wound to his sternum; is that right?

11        A.   Correct, yes.

12        Q.   Not to his head to his sternum?

13        A.   I believe it was the sternum, yes.

14        Q.   Do you know, sir, that during the course of any combat that was

15     going on, if individuals took that body from one location and laid it out

16     so it could be found and be buried?

17        A.   No, I do not know.

18        Q.   So that is equally plausible as to any explanation or any

19     hypothesis you might come up with; isn't that right?

20        A.   That's correct.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I have no further questions of this

22     witness.

23        Q.   Colonel, thank you very much.

24             MR. KEHOE:  It went much more quickly than I thought, Judge.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was noticed by the interpreters as well.

Page 5946

 1             MR. KEHOE:  I can ask a few more questions, Judge.  That was a

 2     joke.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I always admire them to be able to follow.

 4             Then Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to cross-examine

 5     Mr. Bellerose.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, I am.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bellerose, you will now be cross-examined by

 8     Mr. Kuzmanovic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

 9                            Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Could the registrar please pull up D513.  The

11     last four digits of the page number are 4620; that's the diary.

12        Q.   Sir, the diary that you produced here that we received a copy of

13     goes through Sunday, July 30, or actually Monday, July 31.  Did you have

14     any other entries beyond Monday, July 31?

15        A.   No, I didn't.

16        Q.   You stopped keeping the diary after the end of July?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   If you look at the document up on the screen, point number 4

19     under Saturday, July 29 -- 29 July, it says:  "Murray Dawes is trying to

20     get Jordana, his interpreter/secretary, out"?

21             What did you mean by that entry?

22        A.   I believe that I meant that he was trying to get her out of Knin.

23        Q.   This was on the 29th of July?

24        A.   It would appear so.

25        Q.   Did he relate to you why he was trying to get her out of Knin on

Page 5947

 1     July 29th?

 2        A.   I don't remember.

 3        Q.   Did he tell you that?

 4        A.   I don't remember.

 5        Q.   Now, were the interpreters that you hired of Serb ethnicity at

 6     the camp?

 7        A.   I believe they were.

 8        Q.   I'd like to refer you to your statement, the November 1999

 9     statement.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could pull that up, please.  And if we go

11     to page 6, the top of page 6.

12        Q.   And you have that in front of you, sir?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Just for your own reference if you go to the page before, at the

15     very bottom it says on 12 August 1995, you went to Serb observation post

16     that was close to either CanBat, et cetera.  Then the next page -- I'm

17     assuming that what you are talking about on the next page where you say:

18     "Once we were allowed to leave the UN camp," that all happened after

19     August 12th of 1995; correct?

20        A.   No.  That would have been on the 9th.

21        Q.   When did you get the order from General Forand to start

22     dismantling the observation posts, what date?

23        A.   I'm not quite sure exactly, but that would have been the week

24     following the offensive.

25        Q.   So around the 12th?

Page 5948

 1        A.   Probably, yeah.

 2        Q.   So from August 12th on, you were -- your job was to start

 3     dismantling all of your observation posts?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   That meaning the UN observation posts?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Now, how many of these observation posts were there, roughly?

 8        A.   About 120 that I recall.  That's in the four sector -- I mean

 9     four section.

10        Q.   That was -- what area are you talking about?

11        A.   The Kenyan area sector of operation, the Canadians, the

12     Jordanian, and the Czech.

13        Q.   So it was in Sector South and partly in Sector North?

14        A.   No, just Sector South.

15        Q.   Where was the Czech observation post located?

16        A.   In the northern part of Sector South.

17        Q.   And do you know where exactly?

18        A.   If I had a map showing the border between Sector North and

19     Sector South, I could show you.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's refer you then, I guess back to your statement here,

21     on page 6.  You said that you -- you had orders to dismantle all your

22     observation posts.  Did you have a time-frame within which you had to

23     accomplish that?

24        A.   No, we didn't.

25        Q.   Do you remember where you -- where you started?

Page 5949

 1        A.   Well, there was concurrent activity.  Every battalion, like the

 2     Kenyans and the Canadian and the Jordanian and the Czech, were starting

 3     dismantling at the same time.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Just give me a moment here, Your Honour.  I'm

 5     trying to find a map.

 6             Call up P307, please.  And if we could enlarge that, please.  If

 7     we could scroll down a little bit please.  Right, that's good.

 8        Q.   Sir, you see where Knin is circled there on this particular map?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Could you describe for me -- if could you use a pointer just for

11     demonstrative purpose, where the observation posts in general were

12     located?  Not all 120 obviously, but general locations of where the

13     observation posts were?

14        A.   You don't have a map that shows the former borders between the

15     Krajinas and Croatia?

16        Q.   We probably do, but if you -- for sake of simplicity if you could

17     just show us, for example, I guess, can you tell me where is JorBat

18     located on this map?

19        A.   I remember the Kenyan in this sector.

20        Q.   And you have marked a half circle in blue?

21        A.   Yeah, that is K for Kenyan.  Roughly, we had the Canadian.  I

22     believe JorBat were along the mountain.  And further up we had the --

23        Q.   You can't scroll up anymore now that you have drawn on it but

24     further north would be the Czechs?

25        A.   Would be the Czech, yeah.

Page 5950

 1        Q.   Can you tell me -- mark with that exactly where the JorBat

 2     location was there?

 3        A.   There's not enough detail nor I do remember exactly.

 4        Q.   Do you know what city it was located in?  If you don't know, you

 5     can tell me you don't know.

 6        A.   No, I don't know.

 7        Q.   Now, back to your statement --

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'd like to tender that document,

 9     please.

10             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D519.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D519 is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   In your statement of 1999 --

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go back to that, Mr. Registrar, on

18     page 6.  Just that first paragraph.

19        Q.   Toward the middle of that paragraph you talk about restriction of

20     movement in the sector and you state:  "I saw Croatian special police at

21     the entrance to many villages.  They would often refuse us entry to these

22     villages."

23             First of all, from whom did you get that information?  What

24     factual basis do have you to state that they were Croatian special

25     police?

Page 5951

 1        A.   I cannot remember exactly how I was told that those people in --

 2     that type of uniform were special police, but for me the normal police

 3     were wearing dark blue and a force cap and usually just have a side-arm

 4     and driving the green and white vehicle.

 5             The soldiers were usually wearing fatigue uniform with camouflage

 6     pattern and those persons stopping us, I call them the special police,

 7     were wearing a one colour uniform, either very dark grey or black and had

 8     load bearing vests and looked a lot more professional than normal police.

 9        Q.   I'd specifically asked you -- thank you for that answer, but I'd

10     specifically asked you what factual basis did you have to say in your

11     statement that they were Croatian special police?

12        A.   Other than the uniform they were wearing and assuming that based

13     on the uniform they were wearing.

14        Q.   Can you tell what kind of -- you said that they had a cap, a

15     certain kind of cap.  What kind of cap did they have?

16        A.   No, the normal police were wearing -- I call that a force cap.

17        Q.   Like a normal street cop would have?

18        A.   Like a normal street cop would have.  But those that I call the

19     special police didn't wear that.

20        Q.   Did have any kind of thing -- hat or cap on their head?

21        A.   It has been 18 years I don't remember.

22        Q.   What kind of weapons did they have?

23        A.   I cannot remember.

24        Q.   I noticed that in the statement that gave in 1999 you did not

25     mention anything about the colour of the uniforms or what kind of vests

Page 5952

 1     that they had.  Yet we have a supplemental statement here from you that

 2     was given on 30th June that discusses in some detail what kind of

 3     uniforms these gentlemen were wearing.

 4             Can you describe why all of a sudden on June 30th of 1998 you

 5     recall that kind of detail?

 6        A.   Probably the question wasn't asked in 1999 how I can make the

 7     difference between the two.

 8        Q.   You also didn't mention specifically any towns or villages that

 9     you claim the special police refused entry to you in back 1999; yet

10     specifically in your supplemental statement given on June 30th, 1998, you

11     recall one of those times happening in the area of Gracac.  What has

12     given you the clarity to now remember Gracac?

13        A.   Just that I recall that area, because going into the south, in

14     the Kenyans' sector of operation, I don't recall ever being stopped in

15     that area.  But going towards the north I was.

16        Q.   So you assumed it was Gracac or you think it was Gracac, or is it

17     a guess?

18        A.   I'm pretty sure that was near Gracac.

19        Q.   Can you tell me what the dates were?

20        A.   No, I can't.

21        Q.   Can you tell me how many times you were -- you claim you were

22     refused entry into villages?

23        A.   I cannot be specific.  Maybe, two, three times.

24        Q.   How many people were at these spots in which you claim you were

25     prevented from entering villages?

Page 5953

 1        A.   I can't remember exactly.

 2        Q.   How many people were with you on these trips?

 3        A.   Probably me and a Slovak driver.

 4        Q.   Do you know his name?

 5        A.   No.  And I had different driver every day.

 6        Q.   So it was you and a driver and the drivers you can't remember who

 7     they are?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   What kind of vehicle did you have?

10        A.   I had a Toyota pick-up truck.

11        Q.   What colour?

12        A.   White.

13        Q.   Tell me, if you can, did you ever have any conversations with

14     those people at these spots where you said that you were prevented from

15     entering?

16        A.   Yeah.  I cannot remember exactly what was said, but they wouldn't

17     let me in.

18        Q.   What did you say, what did you tell them?

19        A.   I probably would have told them that I was a UN and I was going

20     to one of the UN observation posts.

21        Q.   And the reply?

22        A.   I cannot remember.

23        Q.   Would they speak English to you?

24        A.   Some did.  Very limited.

25        Q.   When you were on your way to observation posts, how did you get

Page 5954

 1     there?  Were you using the main roads?

 2        A.   Some were main roads; some were tracks that had been build by the

 3     UN to --

 4        Q.   To get to those spots?

 5        A.   To get to the those spots.

 6        Q.   Were those dirt roads, then?

 7        A.   Some were.

 8        Q.   So just so I'm straight, you can't give me a date or dates when

 9     you were stopped, correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And you can't give me the locations other than the general area

12     of Gracac of places that you were stopped.  Correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And you can't give me the name of anybody you were with when you

15     were stopped.  Correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Just so I'm clear, can you give me a date of when you went --

18     when you were stopped in and around the area of Gracac?  And I'm sorry if

19     I asked that already.

20        A.   No, I cannot.

21        Q.   Can you tell of the kind of insignia that any of these people who

22     stopped you wore?

23        A.   I cannot remember.

24        Q.   Did they have insignia?

25        A.   I cannot remember.

Page 5955

 1        Q.   And, again, you cannot tell me what factual basis you came to

 2     conclude that these people who stopped you were actually Croatian special

 3     police.  Correct?

 4        A.   I was assuming by their uniform.

 5        Q.   Do you know how the special police was organised or structured?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Do you know how the military police was organised or structured?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Do you know how the Croatian military was organised or

10     structured?

11        A.   No.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I don't have any more questions.  Thank you,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             Mr. Cayley.

16             MR. CAYLEY:  Nothing arises.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing arises.

18             Mr. Russo, any need re-examine the witness.

19             MR. RUSSO:  No, Your Honour.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE KINIS:  Referring back to your statement, P546, page 3,

24     last paragraph, you mentioned that "I was unable to leave Sector South

25     immediately to carry out these tasks.  This was because Serbs had put a

Page 5956

 1     number of surface mines on the road was directly outside of the camp

 2     gates and leading up to the main road."

 3             Could you please clarify this issue, was it -- when it occurs?

 4        A.   That was on the 4th, after -- well, now General Leslie asked me

 5     to go and deliver the medical supply.  We got the APC organised, the

 6     medical loaded and when we got at the gate there was Serb soldiers

 7     stopping us from leaving and they also had a mine on the surface of the

 8     road, so, you know, preventing us from leaving with our vehicle.

 9             JUDGE KINIS:  But did they allow to you they mine this area or

10     they prohibit to do it?

11        A.   Well, they didn't have to say that they mined the area.  We could

12     see that the mine were on the road, that the mine were, let's say, less

13     than five metres from the main gate.  And they weren't buried; they were

14     right on the surface of ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Since I have no further questions for you,

16     Mr. Bellerose, this concludes your testimony, unless the question by

17     Judge Kinis has triggered any need to put further questions to the

18     witness.

19             Mr. Bellerose, I would like to thank you very much for coming a

20     long way to The Hague.  I saw in this interview that you were a bit

21     surprised at the time that you were never called to testify.  Well, that

22     has now changed.

23             Mr. Bellerose, I wish you a safe trip home again and thank you

24     for answering all the questions asked by the parties and by the Bench.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And sorry for a bit of

Page 5957

 1     confusion at the beginning.  I was a bit nervous.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I hope that's over now.

 3             Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Bellerose out of the

 4     courtroom.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We asked for only two minutes to read a decision and

 7     I got even ten.

 8             The Chamber still owes the parties the reasons for granting

 9     trial-related protective measures for Witness 3.

10             On the 4 April 2008, the Prosecution applied for the

11     trial-related protective measures of pseudonym and face distortion for

12     Witness 3.  On the 16th April 2008, the Gotovina Defence filed a

13     response, in which it did not oppose the request but disagreed with the

14     Prosecution's arguments in support of the motion.

15             The following day, the Markac Defence filed a joinder to that

16     response.  And on the 21 April 2008 the Chamber decided to grant the

17     request with reasons to follow.  This decision can be found at transcript

18     page 1862.

19             After the request was granted, the Chamber was informed in

20     private session that information about the anticipated evidence of the

21     witness had entered the public domain.  The Chamber consequently decided

22     to hear the testimony of the witness in private session.  This decision

23     can be found at transcript page 1870.

24             As the Chamber held in its reasons for its first protective

25     measures decision in this case at transcript page 2610, the mere

Page 5958

 1     expression of fear by a person is not sufficient for protective measures

 2     to be granted.  The party seeking protective measures for a witness must

 3     demonstrate an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare of

 4     the witness or the witness's family, should it become known that the

 5     witness has given evidence before the Tribunal.

 6             Witness 3, a Croatian Serb, travels regularly to Croatia, where

 7     she owns property.  She has expressed fears of encountering certain

 8     persons whom she met during the course of events pleaded in the

 9     indictment.  After careful consideration, the Chamber found that the

10     content of her anticipated testimony could antagonise those persons.  The

11     witness has been approached and questioned by journalists, who published

12     stories on her connection with the indictment.  This further fueled her

13     fears.

14             For these reasons, the Chamber is satisfied that the Prosecution

15     has demonstrated an objectively grounded risk to the security of the

16     witness should it become known that she has given evidence before the

17     Chamber.

18             The Chamber considered the information about the anticipated

19     evidence of the witness that had fallen into the public domain and found

20     that the only effective way to protect her identity was to hear her

21     testimony in private session.

22             And this concludes the Chamber's reasons for its decision to

23     grant protective measures for Witness 3.

24             There's not sufficient time to call another witness.

25     Nevertheless, the Chamber would briefly explore what will happen in the

Page 5959

 1     days to come.  We have a witness scheduled for tomorrow, which will not

 2     take much time in chief, as far as I'm informed.

 3             Mr. Hedaraly, is that --

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  That's correct, Your Honour.  It should take 45

 5     minutes or an hour, at the most.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  At most.

 7             Any idea on how much cross-examination would take of the next

 8     witness to appear?

 9             MR. MISETIC:  I would anticipate right now, Your Honour, two to

10     three hours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Two to three hours.

12             Other Defence teams.

13             MR. CAYLEY:  As things stand, Your Honour, we don't have any

14     questions for this witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, that depends on cross-examination of

17     Mr. Misetic, but I don't believe we will take more than 30 minutes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that -- now I get three messages at the

19     same time, so if you'd just give me one second.

20             Can we move into private session for a while.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5960











11  Pages 5960-5963 redacted. Private session.















Page 5964

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Registrar.  As I said before,

22     we'll resume tomorrow, the 8th of July, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom

23     II.

24               --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m., to be

25               reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of July, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.