Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6594

 1                           Wednesday, 16 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Before I give you an opportunity, Mr. Misetic, to continue your

13     cross-examination, there are a few procedural matters which I would like

14     to deal with very quickly, the first one in private session.

15             Mrs. Rehn, you'll not know what I'm talking about anyhow, so,

16     therefore, there's no need to ask you to leave the courtroom.

17                           [Private session]

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Page 6595

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18             There was a request to know as quickly as possible about the

19     documents filed in relation to Mrs. Rehn by the Prosecution.  Therefore,

20     looking at the list provided by Mr. Registrar, where he gives a total

21     survey of all the pending bar table requests, starting at number 142.  I

22     don't know whether you have that list at hand.

23             The first one, 142, was already in evidence.  That was D669, so

24     that is clear; the second one, 2710, was already admitted into evidence

25     as P639, if I'm not mistaken, Ms. Mahindaratne; then number 147, 4312,

Page 6596

 1     was admitted into evidence, under seal, as P643.

 2             What then remains is 144, which is 65 ter 2820; 145, which

 3     is 4102; 146, which is 4128; we dealt already with 147; 148, 4332.  I do

 4     understand that there's no need for confidentiality here, so that this is

 5     a mistake that the confidential box is -- yes, it can be admitted.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It is as a public document.

 8             Then we have 149, 4367; 150, 4371; 151, 4394; 152, 4450; 153,

 9     4453; 154 on this list is 65 ter 5318; and 155 is 3332.

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear that although we discussed 4312, that no

12     decision finally has been taken to admit this exhibit which appears as

13     number 147 on the list.  The Chamber admits into evidence the numbers I

14     just mentioned, 144 up to and including 155; 147 is admitted under seal;

15     all the other documents are admitted into evidence as public documents.

16     The numbers were already assigned, that is, P640 up to and including

17     P642, public; P643, under seal; P644 up to and including P651, all

18     admitted as public exhibits.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just point out document

20     number which is now marked as P650, that is, 65 ter number 5318, has been

21     admitted on a previous occasion -  I pointed that out yesterday - under

22     Exhibit Number P477.  I placed that on record yesterday.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I must have overlooked that, Ms. Mahindaratne.

24     My apologies for that.

25             Mr. Registrar, will we forget P650 and use that at a later stage,

Page 6597

 1     rather than now changing the numbers.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that that number will be skipped.

 4             Mrs. Rehn, this is not a bookkeeping session, but we have to deal

 5     with some formalities now and then.  Apologies and thank you for your

 6     patience.  May I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

 7     declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Of course, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Mr. Misetic, are you ready to proceed?

11             MR. MISETIC:  I am, Your Honour.  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           WITNESS:  ELISABETH REHN [Resumed]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, again, Mrs. Rehn.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   I would like to start this morning's session by taking you to

17     page 2 of your statement - page 2 and 3, I should say - discussing some

18     of the things that you say in your statement you personally observed.  At

19     the bottom paragraph on page 2, in the middle of the paragraph, you say:

20     "These included a number of visits to Sector South.  On these visits, I

21     observed the Croatian military looting civilian property."

22             If we could stop there.  Do you recall where you saw Croatian

23     military looting, in what town and when?

24        A.   As told in my report and in the -- in the different notes that

25     have been taken during the visits, there are several villages that I went

Page 6598

 1     to, and I can't recall the names.  I'm very sorry for that.  My first

 2     visit was together with two -- to the Sector North in 1995, October,

 3     together with two UNMOs, a Norwegian and a Kenyan.  And they took me

 4     around to look at what was happening there on the ground.  I visited some

 5     houses.  There was a paralyzed woman who had been shot at through her

 6     window --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  May I interrupt you.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I'm sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry for interrupting.  I think as a matter

10     that Mr. Misetic is defending a case which is exclusively located in

11     Sector South, so, therefore, just in terms of using our time --

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, okay.  Okay.  Sorry.  I understand that.

13     Because for me, of course, this is a whole with what I have experienced.

14             So, in Sector South, I went a few times to the town of Knin, to

15     the villages around there that I can't mention.  I can't remember the

16     names.  I'm sorry, but I'm very bad with names; it's good if I remember

17     my own one.  Therefore, I only have to state that it was during several

18     visits.

19             And I also want to remind you about the method of my work in

20     minutes, in the reports we have mentioned, high-level persons,

21     politicians, others I have met with.  Although, the most people I met

22     with were at a grass-roots level going in and out of houses, talking with

23     both Croats and a few Serbs that were returning, and seeing what I saw.

24     So these lootings were something I observed there around Knin and also in

25     other villages.

Page 6599

 1             MR. MISETIC:

 2        Q.   Just so that we clarify this point.  Is this something that

 3     you -- information you received from other people, or are you saying that

 4     you were present while you saw military people looting houses?

 5        A.   I saw military people looting houses; and as I have corrected

 6     afterwards in -- I think in my second statement, that, of course, I can't

 7     go on oath on that they were military because something I learned also in

 8     other parts of the former Yugoslavia was that clothes were used whenever

 9     you could get them.  So it could be civilians that are having military

10     uniforms.  On the other hand, the vehicles were much pointing on the fact

11     that it must have been, and it was in my mind quite clear that it should

12     be military persons.

13        Q.   Okay.  Would that have been something that would have -- you

14     would have put in one of your reports that you personally eye-witnessed

15     military trucks with people looting --

16        A.   I think it is already in some of the minutes that I saw this, and

17     also in my statement, because all over you could see trucks where men

18     were taking different items from houses, starting with windows and window

19     frames and fridges and so on.  So that was what happened on several

20     occasions around -- when I was travelling around.

21        Q.   But I'm not asking about the minutes of meetings or your witness

22     statement here.  I'm asking you in your reports to the Secretary-General,

23     do you -- if you had personally eye-witnessed soldiers looting and

24     military trucks present, that would be something important enough to

25     include in one of your reports.  Is that correct?

Page 6600

 1        A.   Yes, of course.  And I must say that I believe that it is also

 2     stated, but perhaps it should have been, because we always talked in the

 3     "we" format:  The UN, the units saw, and the staff saw, and so on.  So we

 4     never pointed out especially my own role.  I was one of "we."

 5        Q.   Now, if I could turn to your supplemental statement at

 6     paragraph 12, you say:  "Almost every Serb house was vandalized with the

 7     word "Chetnik."

 8             Where was this?

 9        A.   Especially in Knin and there around.  It was so clear, the hate,

10     when I talked with Croatian people, the enormous hate to those who

11     perhaps would be returning, the Serbs.  They didn't want them to come

12     back.  And then as an opposite, on every Croat house, there was the Croat

13     chequer-board flag showing that here are real people living.

14        Q.   So you have a personal memory of every house -- almost every Serb

15     house in Knin having the word "Chetnik" written on it?

16        A.   So many of these houses had it.  It would be exaggeration to say

17     that every house, because it was impossible for me to know which houses

18     were left by Serbs.  But too many of them had this red "Chetnik" on them.

19        Q.   In your statement, you say:  "I remember we had to be careful

20     when going into the Serbian villages because we had been told of

21     occasions when Serbian houses had been booby-trapped to blow up if the

22     Serbs attempted to return."

23             First, who gave you that information?

24        A.   It was given to me by, of course, my own staff - and when I'm

25     talking about "my own staff," it is the staff of the United Nations

Page 6601

 1     Commission for Human Rights - but also by military I spoke with, and my

 2     security major that was from Finland who was following me and, of course,

 3     was very keen of my security.  He thought that it would be not absolutely

 4     necessary for me to step into a booby-trap.  So, therefore, he collected

 5     information from police, from military.

 6             And there was a clear warning.  One house I went to I had to -- I

 7     was especially warned about because there had been a return by Serbs who

 8     were not allowed to go to the house.  They had to live in the animals'

 9     hamlet together with some animals, and it was a nasty situation.  But, of

10     course, I went to that house but I was told to be very careful.

11        Q.   Okay.  So you have -- you don't know whether houses were actually

12     booby-trapped; this is something that was just told to you?

13        A.   No, of course, I couldn't, because if I would have stepped into

14     one booby-trap, then I should have known that there is one.  But I did

15     not do that.

16        Q.   I'm asking you for examples.  Did you subsequently receive any

17     information that there was ever a house that had been booby-trapped --

18        A.   Oh, yes.  I got the information, and especially through my

19     security advisor, that be careful because it has been told by UN staff

20     that there have been booby-traps.  And, of course, I met also with a

21     couple who had moved in and got immediately a bomb, some grenade,

22     something, thrown into their house.  So the man was in hospital, and the

23     woman had quite serious injuries when she told us about how lovely the

24     neighbours are.

25        Q.   Where was the booby-trapped -- where were the booby-trapped

Page 6602

 1     houses, in what villages or towns?

 2        A.   As I told you earlier, it was in the Knin region around, but I

 3     can't remember the names of the villages.

 4        Q.   Do you remember the agency or UN organization that passed this

 5     information?

 6        A.   No.  As I told you, we had for every visit there was discussions

 7     around with all the internationals because we exchanged information to

 8     each other.  This is, of course, a way that United Nations bodies are

 9     working.  It was very important for human rights people to know from the

10     military part and from the police which are the security risks.  So this

11     was information that was given from one agency to another, so that we

12     were, so to say, all on the same track and were aware of.  Also, the

13     European Union bodies were involved in the discussions.

14        Q.   Do you have the name of any individual we could speak to, to try

15     to verify where this information came from?  Do you have any

16     recollection?

17        A.   I could imagine that those who are -- were working at that time

18     in the staff can verify it.

19        Q.   Who -- on your staff you mean?

20        A.   In my staff.

21        Q.   And what are the names of the people who were working on your

22     staff?  I don't think we established that yet.

23        A.   There were a lot of them.  Of course, Roman Wieruszewski was the

24     head of all this.  I have a very bad copy.  Then we had Mamadi Diakite

25     who has been mentioned earlier.  One person that was very much involved

Page 6603

 1     in these who was local secretariat assistance was Mr. Sasa Milosevic, and

 2     then also Susan Ashoor who was local.  Ravinder Joshi was there.  Then

 3     from -- sometimes we had people coming from other parts of our mission in

 4     Bosnia, in Herzegovina, in Kosovo, in -- from Belgrade, and so on.  So it

 5     was a good team of people who assisted each other.  So there are some of

 6     the names.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Sasa Milosevic you mentioned.  Sasa Milosevic on your team

 8     was from the Serbian Helsinki Committee; is that correct?

 9        A.   No, not to my knowledge.  He was working for us as a secretarial

10     assistance local.  He can be nowadays perhaps, I don't know.  I haven't

11     heard about him since I left.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D40-0081.

13        Q.   This relates, Mrs. Rehn, to the portion of your 7 November 1995

14     report at paragraph 1.  You refer to a couple thousand Croatian Serbs

15     awaiting return from Hungary, and I believe you mentioned that yesterday

16     in your testimony as well.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   This is a news article from 22nd of September, 1995, about this

19     issue, and it says:  "Croatian police has barred nine elderly Serbs from

20     returning to their homes in Croatia's Krajina region, the Helsinki

21     Commission for Human Rights said on Friday.  The group was stopped at

22     Terezino Polje north-eastern Croatia, on the border with Hungary, the

23     committee said.  But it was not immediately clear when the border

24     incident happened."

25             Then it goes on:  "'We have sent letters to the Croatian

Page 6604

 1     government as well as the Croatian office for refugees about the group,

 2     but they have not replied,' said Petar Mrkalj, the director of the

 3     Croatian branch of the Helsinki committee, in a communique"

 4             Now, that was on the 22nd of September; and in your 7 November

 5     1995 report where you discuss at paragraph 41 this issue about the

 6     Croatian Serbs being at the Hungarian border, in the appendix it reports

 7     that, on Thursday 12 October, you met with Petar Mrkalj, who's mentioned

 8     in this article.  And my question to you is:  At least as of 22nd

 9     September 1995, Mr. Mrkalj is telling agency France-Presse that the

10     number of Serbs in Hungary that was turned away was nine.  So I was

11     wondering if you could tell us where the number of thousands of Serbs at

12     the Hungarian border, where you had arrived at that number.

13        A.   That is an information I have got from the leadership of my

14     office and through also the Eastern Slavonia people working there.  So I

15     could imagine that the word at the border is not perhaps an accurate

16     saying; but in Hungary, that they are waiting in Hungary.  So there I

17     must totally agree with you, counsel, that it was not exact.

18             But the information I got then through, again, my staff was that

19     people are waiting in Hungary and there are hundreds if even not

20     thousands who are waiting to get their papers -- papers in order.  And

21     that was, of course, everything.  Everything was in connection to the

22     property rights, as I have told earlier.  It was not so much a question

23     of getting your nationality confirmed.

24             You are totally right that it was in Belgrade, as I also told.

25     You should go to Belgrade to get your IDs and others if possible.  But

Page 6605

 1     the time-limit to get, to claim for your property --

 2        Q.   Mrs. Rehn --

 3        A.   -- that was short, and, therefore, it was so important to look

 4     into the situation that people are waiting somewhere to get to -- to get

 5     back.

 6        Q.   Okay.  But just so that we're clear now, what you're saying is

 7     you're not sure of how many people were in Hungary actually waiting to

 8     come --

 9        A.   No.  I'm quite sure that they were in Hungary.  But at the

10     border, that is certainly an exaggeration, because when you talk about

11     the border, then you are just standing there at the check-point waiting

12     to come.  And there could have be nine; certainly, there are nine, as it

13     is told here.  But, in Hungary, altogether many were waiting for an

14     entrance to come back again.

15        Q.   Would again we have to speak with your staff to figure out where

16     these numbers come from?

17        A.   Yes, absolutely.  And in everything -- almost everything that I

18     haven't seen with my own eyes, you have to talk with my staff, because I

19     have to remind you, once again, that this was a mission with the Special

20     Rapporteur.  Sometimes even Special Rapporteurs have never visited the

21     country they are reporting on when they are not allowed to go there.  But

22     in my case, I really went there very often.

23             But all the other information was gathered by the staff, then

24     discussed by us, and I looked into it that it is safe information that

25     you can put in a report.  And as with the meaning of the report is to

Page 6606

 1     raise awareness with the governments, the different governments I

 2     covered.  I think it was a very good way of a method.  Even looking

 3     at now, if I still may say, that we achieved our purpose with a lot of

 4     answers, very good, very strong, very detailed answers, from the

 5     governments that led also to steps to be taken.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Rehn.  Please don't take this as being rude.  I'm

 7     just --

 8        A.   No.  I have seen more rude people in my time than you.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to ask you to, if you can, keep your

10     answers a bit shorter, so that we can get all through --

11        A.   Okay.  That is my interest.

12        Q.   That is what I was about to say.  Thank you.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I would tender this exhibit into

14     evidence, please.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D688, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D688 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. MISETIC:

20        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, at page 4 of your statement, you refer to the

21     Secretary-General's report from December 1995, and it says:  "On page 5,

22     the estimated figure of destroyed houses of 5.000 was an estimate

23     obtained from the collected information from the international

24     organizations including my own office.  I witnessed myself many burned

25     houses in the Krajina region."

Page 6607

 1             The number of 5.000 burned houses, that was both Sectors North

 2     and South; correct?

 3        A.   I would think so.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Now, let's turn to that report which is P477, and

 5     if we could go to page 4 of that document, please.

 6        Q.   Now, at paragraph 14, here's what the Secretary-General reports.

 7     He says:  "It is not possible to provide the exact number of houses

 8     destroyed by fire in former Sectors North and South; although, the

 9     estimated total is in excess of 5.000.  Based on observations by teams

10     patrolling throughout the Krajina, the ECMM estimates that in rural

11     areas, 60 per cent of the homes in former Sector South and 30 per cent of

12     the in former Sector North have been destroyed by fire.  United Nations

13     military observers visited 389 villages in Sector South and found that,

14     out of 21.744 houses, 16.857 had been destroyed by fire or had sustained

15     some damage; although, this figure includes damage from before 'Operation

16     Storm.'"

17             Now, both the Secretary-General and you in your statement use the

18     figure of 5.000, rather than relying on the UNMO figure of 16.857.  Is

19     that because you were unable to determine from the numbers that been

20     provided by UNMO which of those houses had been destroyed before and

21     which after Operation Storm?

22        A.   I think it is just the reason why we took this quite careful

23     standpoint that not exaggerate in any case.  It was very difficult

24     altogether to make any kind of estimate on what was the actual amount of

25     houses destroyed during Operation Storm.  As you rightly just pointed

Page 6608

 1     out, that there were houses destroyed also earlier and burnt down, even

 2     if certainly forensic experts can tell when something has been burnt, is

 3     it today or several years ago.

 4        Q.   But you had -- when you were preparing your reports, you had

 5     access to the ECMM analysis of houses or structures destroyed by fire or

 6     that had sustained some damage before preparing your reports; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Oh, yes, of course.

 9        Q.   And if I understood your testimony correctly, you didn't use

10     those numbers because you didn't want to be exaggerating anything?

11        A.   Yes.  And as we didn't exactly know how much was a result of the

12     Operation Storm and what had happened already earlier.  I think that and

13     I would remember that we decided in this international community to be --

14     to really take this amount of plus/minus 5.000 as at least showing that

15     it was a lot of houses because 5.000 is really a big amount of

16     destroyment.  So I would say that was the reason.

17        Q.   Okay.  And looking at paragraph 14 of the Secretary-General's

18     report, does that refresh your recollection, when you were having these

19     conversations about using the 5.000 plus/minus number, that was intended

20     to be a number combined for both Sectors North and South?  Is that

21     correct?

22        A.   I would be lying if I said that I'm recalling this, but I could

23     find it possible.

24        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Staying with this report, if we could go to --

Page 6609

 1     oh, sorry.  It's the -- I'm sorry.

 2        Q.   I need to take you back to the 7 November 1995 report.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, have you dealt with these numbers

 4     because then I would have --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- an additional question.

 7             You said we didn't want to exaggerate.  Now, we see a number of

 8     5.000, we see a number of over 15.000.  Was it that you considered the

 9     higher number to be an exaggerates, or did you want to give such

10     conservative numbers so as to avoid a risk of exaggeration?  Which of the

11     two was it?

12             THE WITNESS:  I would rather say that it was the risk of

13     exaggeration that we were afraid of, because we wanted to be very in one

14     way modest with what we said.  It gave a better base to also demand steps

15     when there was not a risk of exaggeration.  But I have to say that these

16     figures, they are not putting any bells ringing in my mind, in my head,

17     in my memory, because as you well know these reports are filled with

18     details and it's some time ago.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's understood.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

21             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn to P639, please, and if we could

22     go to page 6 of this document, please.

23        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, at paragraph 11, you talk about "the temporary

24     suspension of the constitutional law on human rights and freedoms and the

25     rights of national and ethnic minorities -- communities or minorities in

Page 6610

 1     the Republic of Croatia ..."

 2             Towards the middle, it says:  "The decision to suspend articles

 3     which guarantee the special status of districts predominantly populated

 4     by national minorities, create separate educational institutions, and

 5     secure proportional representation in the parliament, government, and

 6     judiciary, places a question mark over the attitude of the Croatian

 7     authorities towards national minorities in general and the Serbian

 8     minority in particular."

 9             And then at paragraph 12:  "The Special Rapporteur also notes

10     with concern that Article 60 of the above-mentioned law establishing the

11     Provisional Human Rights Court has been suspended."

12             Now -- and back to paragraph 11, there's a sentence in there that

13     says -- referring now to the constitutional law on human rights, it says:

14     "Although that law was never fully implemented, it nevertheless provided

15     national minorities with important legal guarantees."

16             My first question to you was:  Did the phrase "never fully

17     implemented," do you recall whether any portion of that law was ever

18     implemented?

19        A.   No, I cannot recall it.

20        Q.   Are you aware that under the law, there were supposed to be

21     special districts created essentially in what were former Sectors North

22     and Sectors South for the ethnic Serb community?

23        A.   It's possible; but as I said, I can't recall exactly what was

24     meant to be in this law.

25        Q.   Do you recall in your conversations with your interlocutors in

Page 6611

 1     the Croatian government that them ever telling you or writing to you that

 2     the law couldn't be implemented after Operation Storm because the Serbian

 3     population had left?

 4        A.   This -- I have copies, I believe, of all the letters written to

 5     me, and it was not mentioned in these letters.

 6        Q.   Are you familiar with the fact that under that law, all

 7     institutions at the local level and at the -- what was referred to as the

 8     Kotar level or the administration level, the police departments, they all

 9     had to reflect an ethnic composition equal to the ethnic composition of

10     the area in 1991?

11        A.   I really hope that it was meant to be so.  I myself am a

12     representative of a minority in my own country, and I know exactly how

13     important it is to have the rights for minorities written into the law.

14        Q.   Well, speaking of this specific allow, though, are you aware --

15     I'll give you an example just to provide you with the numbers.  If a

16     particular town had 70 per cent Serbs and 30 per cent Croats, are you

17     aware that this law required that seven police officers in the police

18     station had to be Serb and three police officers had to be Croats?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  That is very much in line with other laws regarding

20     minorities, including my own country.

21        Q.   And teachers in schools, if there were 70 per cent Serbs, it

22     required seven out of every ten teachers in the schools had to be Serbs?

23        A.   I understand what you are looking to, when the Serbs left, it was

24     not actual to implement this law.  On the other hand, to postpone it

25     meant too that they didn't count on the Serb citizens to be quickly back

Page 6612

 1     again.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, may I ask a question.

 3             May I go back to the previous question.  Mr. Misetic asked you

 4     whether you were aware that this was a component of that law.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Your answer said, more or less at least as I

 7     understood it, that that would be logical because it would reflect what

 8     we find elsewhere as well.  The question, however, was whether you knew

 9     that this law contained these kind of provisions.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  Because we discussed it, of course, that

11     it was a question of getting the balance between the majorities and

12     minorities in the official bodies.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So you were aware --

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of these provisions to be part of that

16     legislation?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Would you agree with me that even in that short-term period, as

22     the security situation in Sectors North and South was poor, that this law

23     provided an additional complicating factor and that by law all the

24     institutions had to be set up with Serbs participating at all levels of

25     government in those areas?  Would you agree with that?

Page 6613

 1        A.   Yes.  And, therefore, too we are not strong in our wordings.  We

 2     are noting with concern.

 3        Q.   Okay.  With respect to your reference to Article 60 of the law

 4     which establishes a provisional human rights court, are you aware that

 5     such a court never came into existence?

 6        A.   Yeah.

 7        Q.   And are you aware that the reason it never came into existence is

 8     that, in the law itself, it requires an international agreement between

 9     the republics of the former Yugoslavia to be established?

10        A.   I think so.  I certainly was aware of this then.

11        Q.   And --

12        A.   For me, this part of the rights were very strongly focused on the

13     Ombudsman office, and that I was very pleased that could be established,

14     as I told you yesterday, very much on my insistence.

15        Q.   And you will recall, and I think there's -- it's in some of the

16     documents that have been tendered through the Prosecution, that Croatia

17     told you that it was not going to establish a separate provisional human

18     rights court because Croatia was about to accede to the council of Europe

19     and was, therefore, of the opinion that the European Court of Human

20     Rights was itself a human right's court that would have jurisdiction?

21        A.   Yes.  And as I told the Court, therefore we expressed ourselves

22     with concern and that was something we were concerned about, because at

23     that time we didn't know when the report was made what will be the

24     development of this situation.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 6614

 1             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 14 of this document, please.

 2        Q.   At paragraph 37 at the bottom, you discuss where you: " ... the

 3     Special Rapporteur held discussions with the Croatian authorities

 4     concerning the recently adopted law on the temporary take-over and

 5     management of certain property.  This law allows the Croatian authorities

 6     to assume control over 'abandoned property' which may then be given to

 7     Croatian displaced persons and refugees for 'temporary possession and

 8     use.'"

 9             The last sentence then says:  "The Special Rapporteur was

10     informed by the Croatian authorities that the purpose of the new law was

11     to protect abandoned property and to secure it for the possible return of

12     the legitimate owners."

13             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to the next page, please.

14        Q.   At paragraph 38, there's a brief legal analysis of Croatian law,

15     and the second-to-last sentence says:  "However, the law on the temporary

16     take-over and management of certain property constitutes a de facto

17     confiscation."

18             Do you recall the basis of your conclusion that that law amounts

19     to a de facto confiscation?

20        A.   That's strongly based on my own experiences when talking to

21     people around, especially in Sector South around Knin, because those who

22     have tried to return and were already there, the Serbs, they had already

23     their houses occupied.  I understand quite well that Croatian government

24     had a lot of problems with those who had escaped from Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina, Croats, that should be settled somewhere.  They had a big

Page 6615

 1     population of refugees.  But what was absolutely unacceptable was that

 2     there were cases where Croatians, who had their home, their house,

 3     apartment, for instance, in Zagreb, could get as a second house one of

 4     those left by Serbs.  And that was something that I experienced

 5     personally, talked to them; and I have to say that I was not met very

 6     nicely by the people who were occupying the houses.

 7             And I think this was something that was unacceptable.  If they

 8     would have been compensated for their property, then it could have been

 9     some kind of deal.

10        Q.   Okay.  So talking right to that issue of compensation, do you

11     know -- would you agree with me that a confiscation is a legal seizure

12     without compensation by the government republican authority?  Would you

13     agree with that?

14        A.   A confiscation, yes; but we thought that there were not grounds

15     for confiscation, and that it should have been -- perhaps, as I have said

16     earlier, I'm not a lawyer and I have difficulties with all these legal

17     expressions because you should have studied law to be able to work out

18     the right words for everything.

19             But what we were really concerned about was that people couldn't

20     move into their houses, somebody else was living there, and they didn't

21     have any hope of coming there without getting a compensation.

22        Q.   Okay.  You use the phrase de facto confiscation.  By using the

23     phrase de facto confiscation, did you mean that it wasn't a de jure

24     confiscation?

25        A.   Apparently.

Page 6616

 1        Q.   Do you know the difference between sequestration or sequester and

 2     confiscation?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could call up 65 ter 2502,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, this is a legal analysis of that law which may have

 8     been sent to you in anticipation of the report that you were preparing.

 9     Sasa Milosevic ...

10             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn to the next page of that document,

11     please.

12        Q.   ... whom you had referenced earlier is on the e-mail as the

13     person at the top.  Do you see that?

14        A.   Yes, I can see it.

15        Q.   And it's being forwarded -- this purports to be a legal analysis

16     of the Croatian property law.  The cover page said it was forwarded to

17     the -- actually, Mr. Wieruszewski.  It was to his attention, but also

18     Mr. Mautner Markhof, on 23 October 1995.

19             If you look at the header, it's an e-mail, 6 October 1995,

20     forwarded to Sasa Milosevic of your staff, from the -- what appears to be

21     the Helsinki Committee in Belgrade.  Do you see that?

22             Do you recall if the legal analysis in your report is based on a

23     legal analysis that had been drafted in Belgrade by the Serbian Helsinki

24     Committee, passed to Sasa Milosevic, and then passed to Mr. Wieruszewski

25     in anticipation of your report?

Page 6617

 1        A.   I have no memory of this paper.  I wonder if I ever have seen it.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I would tender this document in

 3     evidence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, the first thing is we haven't

 6     got notice that this document was going to be tendered, and, therefore, I

 7     haven't been able to look at this document.  May I just have a moment.

 8     Can this be taken up later on.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  It's a 65 ter, Your Honour, but I assume they

10     were --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, a 65 ter as such doesn't mean you are going to

12     use that as evidence, and I think the rule is that at the beginning of

13     the cross-examination, you inform the other party what they could expect

14     as far as documents to be used during cross-examination.  So familiarity

15     with the document as such can be assumed, but awareness of it being used

16     at this moment cannot be assumed.

17             MR. MISETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  I apologise.  I think

18     it was just --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, apart from that, the top seven lines --

20             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, actually, I'm looking at the e-court

21     report and it was disclosed to them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, if that's the case, we lost one

23     minute for no good purpose.

24             MR. MISETIC:  It's number 14 in the e-court list.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I don't have objection to the

Page 6618

 1     admission.  I've taken the time to quickly go through it, and I apologise

 2     if I delayed the proceedings.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

 4             Mr. Misetic, the copy or the scanned version, but perhaps I

 5     should address Ms. Mahindaratne, leaves out a bit of the left margin, and

 6     since we find Sasa Milosevic once as "2" or perhaps the original "2," and

 7     a few lines further down origin Sasa Milosevic, so he could have

 8     forwarded it.

 9             Could we have a complete copy of this document, so that we're

10     better able to understand what at least the document tells us, where it

11     comes from, and where it was sent to.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, during the break, I will

13     look at this and take care of it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then I think we should marked for

15     identification for the time being.  It's on the record.  There are no

16     objections against admission, but the Chamber would like to see the

17     document from left to right.  It further indicates, Ms. Mahindaratne,

18     that this is the second page out of eight.  I don't know what series it

19     is in, and I don't know whether this's any relevance in the remaining

20     seven pages.

21             Mr. Registrar, this would be number ... ?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit Number D689, marked for identification,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

Page 6619

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, now we turn to page 4 of your statement.  In the

 3     second paragraph, again you're referring to the Secretary-General's

 4     report, I believe, yes, of 18 October 1995.  And you note that:  "It is

 5     mentioned that the Croatian authorities have warned that against the

 6     return of the Serbs to their homes in the Krajina because of an uncertain

 7     security situation and have said that a mass return must await a final

 8     political settlement."

 9             Now, in October, you had conversations with UNHCR as well; is

10     that correct?

11        A.   Mm-hmm.

12        Q.   Is that a yes?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Rehn --

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  For the record, we request you --

16             THE WITNESS:  I was so deeply involved with the text that I was

17     only nodding.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not a criticism.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, you are aware that the High Commissioner for Refugees

22     was Sadako Ogata at that time?

23        A.   Oh, yes.  We had a lot of good cooperation.

24        Q.   Are you aware of what Mrs. Ogata's position was in October of

25     1995 with respect to mass returns?

Page 6620

 1        A.   No, I just can't recall it.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have 1D40-0054, please.

 3        Q.   And at the top, you will see that is a statement by Mrs. Ogata,

 4     10 October 1995, given to the Humanitarian Issues Working Group of the

 5     International Conference for the former Yugoslavia.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn to page 3 of this document, please.

 7        Q.   At the bottom paragraph, it says:  "Allow me now to elaborate on

 8     the issues of peace and the return of refugees."

 9             Then there's an introduction.

10             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to the next page, please.

11        Q.   The second paragraph -- the first full paragraph says:  "In order

12     to carry out the return operation, I must emphasize the importance of

13     having internationally recognised humanitarian principles.  First of all,

14     it must be voluntary.  People must not be used as pawns.  The interest of

15     every individual refugee should be the motivating force behind any

16     repatriation process and not political considerations."

17             The next paragraph says:  "Secondly, repatriation must take place

18     in an organized, phased manner.  If it is to take place in dignity,

19     attention must be paid to ensuring that, for example, adequate

20     accommodation and basic essential services are available in the places of

21     return. "

22             Then the next paragraph:  "I envisage the repatriation process

23     broadly taking place in three phases.  The first should be the return of

24     displaced persons within Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia.  During this

25     initial post-settlement period, there are also likely to be further

Page 6621

 1     population movements as a result of the territorial adjustments between

 2     the parties."

 3             Does that refresh your recollection as to what was being

 4     discussed in these working groups on the former Yugoslavia and what

 5     Mrs. Ogata may have been discussing with respect to the process of how

 6     refugees were to return?

 7        A.   There is definitely no kind of contradiction between her policy

 8     and what I have been reported on -- reporting on.

 9        Q.   I'm not --

10        A.   Something that I find very important to mention is that the

11     returns, the voluntariness is really very important.  But I met with Serb

12     refugees outside Belgrade in quite terrible camps, and they definitely

13     wanted to return.  So as always, my reports are based on the ordinary,

14     real people, not how to move them like just something you are playing

15     games with.  I'm not saying that Mrs. Ogata is doing that.  But, though,

16     it was very important that whatever I reported on was coming out from the

17     feelings of the real grass-root level, not high politicians, not even

18     international organizations.  Then I also have again to remind that a

19     Special Rapporteur is totally independent from the United Nations

20     organizations.

21        Q.   I -- you should never assume that I'm putting something to you

22     because I think it's in contradiction to what you've said.  What I'm

23     asking about is the Croatian government's position as articulated in your

24     own witness statement.

25        A.   Yes.  And, here, it's very good where Madam is Ogata especially

Page 6622

 1     mentioning this, that this must be voluntary and security must be

 2     guaranteed.  And that is what the Croatian authorities were not prepared

 3     to give that guarantee at that time.

 4        Q.   What guarantee?

 5        A.   Of security at that time for the returnees.

 6        Q.   Because the security situation still had not been --

 7        A.   And especially because the Croatians there didn't want them to

 8     come.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well --

10        A.   The neighbours didn't want them to come.

11        Q.   The neighbours, okay.  Now, what I'm asking you is on the issue

12     of the Croatian government saying that mass returns needed to await a

13     political settlement and for an improved security situation.  That was

14     consistent with what UNHCR was putting forward at working groups on the

15     former Yugoslavia; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, in the way that as they couldn't provide and perhaps didn't

17     want to provide a strong security situation for the returnees.  Just

18     because of that, of course they didn't want to go against their own

19     people, Croatian people who lived there, and didn't want them to come

20     back.  This is very much a political settlement, as you said.  They

21     didn't want to settle it.  I know politicians so well, I have been myself

22     one.  So I know they are looking into what the people, the voters, really

23     want you to do.  And in this case, their own people, Croatian people who

24     was there in the villages, in town of Knin and so on, they didn't want

25     them to come back.

Page 6623

 1        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, I think we went through this yesterday, but after the

 2     political settlement was achieved, by the time you filed your last report

 3     you said that there was reason for optimism in light of what the Croatian

 4     government had done after the political settlement was achieved; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes, several years or a couple of years later on.  And today of

 7     course they will be a member of the European Union soon, a fantastic

 8     development.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I tender this document from the UNHCR

10     into evidence, please.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D690, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D690 is admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Misetic, when Mrs. Rehn said the government and the

16     neighbours, before putting your next question, question, you said "the

17     neighbours," which as a matter of fact --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Well, I will not at the transcript --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the transcript doesn't reflect that.  It says

20     "the," and then the word "neighbours" is left out.  You repeated that

21     word and that's part an answer, and that's not how it should be done.  If

22     you look at -- it's just that it was missing on the transcript.  The word

23     "the" is there, but the word "neighbours" --

24             MR. MISETIC:  I think we're referring to page 28, line 17, Your

25     Honour.

Page 6624

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you look at page 28, line 18, it now reads "the,

 2     okay."

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Oh, I see.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There you said "the neighbours."

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, I got it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it's good it's not on the record because

 7     repeating the part of the answer which apparently is most welcome is

 8     not -- comes down to comment.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  You inserted the word "Croatian government," and

10     that is not in the transcript, which is why I'm looking it up.  She said

11     "the Croatians ..." --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  "The Croatians."

13             MR. MISETIC:  That's why I wanted to clarify, so that later on we

14     wouldn't have the misunderstanding, or I wanted to clarify what

15     "Croatians" meant.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, a few lines before it's "Croatian

17     authorities," and it's a clear reference to that, even if the word

18     "authorities" was not --

19             MR. MISETIC:  No, again, I mean, I don't think that's what -- it

20     says:  "The Croatian authorities were not prepared to give that guarantee

21     of security," and then she added:  "... and especially because the

22     Croatians there didn't want them to come."

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you asked:  "What guarantee?"  Then the answer

24     was: "... of security at the time for the returnees."  That is clearly a

25     reference to the earlier line about guarantee, and --

Page 6625

 1             MR. MISETIC:  I distinguish, Your Honour, between being able to

 2     provide a security guarantee and not wanting somebody -- but --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's leave it.  If perhaps by not repeating

 4     the answer at all, we avoid these kind of risks, or you asked what did

 5     you mean by this or that.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  All right.

 7        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, I noted in your curriculum vitae that you were also

 8     the chair of the democratization and human rights working table from 2004

 9     to 2005 for the stability pact for south-east Europe; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   As the chair of the democratization and human rights working

12     table, would that mean that you were involved in human rights issues

13     throughout the former Yugoslavia?

14        A.   No.  The south-eastern Europe, so Albania and Moldova and others,

15     were included in this.  So the stability pact for south-eastern Europe

16     was created in 1998 in Sarajevo, and there were three working tables, one

17     for democracy and so on.  So then I covered the whole region of

18     south-eastern Europe; also Croatia, of course.

19        Q.   All right.  And this was in 2004?

20        A.   I think that I started 2003 and left it in the beginning of 2005.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Let me call up 1D40-0059.

23        Q.   You will note on the cover page that this is a meeting of the

24     Security Council on the 5th of September, 2002.

25             MR. MISETIC:  If we turn the page.

Page 6626

 1        Q.   In the right-hand column three paragraphs down, it says:  "At the

 2     meeting, the Security Council will hear a briefing by Mr. Hedi Annabi,

 3     assistant Secretary-General for peacekeeping operations.

 4             "I now give the floor to Mr. Annabi."

 5             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to page 5, please.

 6        Q.   The third full paragraph down, this is Mr. Annabi's presentation

 7     to the Security Council, and he says -- now we're talking about mass

 8     returns of refugees to Kosovo.  He says:  "In this context, recent

 9     statements by Kosovo Serb internally displaced persons that they are

10     planning to block the crossing points on the administrative boundary line

11     with Kosovo later this month if they are not allowed to return en masse

12     are cause for concern.  Although the impatience of internally displaced

13     persons is understandable, given the still delicate state of

14     inter-communal relations, any action along those lines would only be

15     counterproductive and would be harmful to the returns process.

16             "There cannot be artificial mass return.  UNMIK's return policy

17     is based on the right of individual return in an organized way so that it

18     can be sustainable.  This requires careful preparation on the ground to

19     ensure that the physical infrastructure - meaning houses, employment, and

20     access to public services - is in place to welcome the returnees.  It

21     also requires a careful handling of relations with the neighbouring

22     Kosovo Albanian communities to diminish the potential for return-related

23     security incidents."

24             Now, as someone who not only covered Croatia but covered the

25     former Yugoslavia and later became involved even after this report in

Page 6627

 1     human rights in the former Yugoslavia, you are aware that there was a

 2     specific structured return policy to bring Serbs back into Kosovo --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.   -- and that the United Nations itself was opposed to a policy of

 6     mass return of Serbs to Kosovo; is that correct?

 7        A.   I think that we are going quite far now from the situation with

 8     my reports when we talk about the returns of Serbs to Kosovo.  Because

 9     what I at least have learned studying conflicts in and around the world

10     with another -- other mission I had for UN, that one conflict is not

11     similar to another.  And I have good respect for my old friend

12     Mr. Steiner, but we could, of course, refer to whichever presentation

13     from important persons.  So this was a matter that certainly was very

14     important, found important, regarding Kosovo after the intervention and

15     the bombings and all these what happened there.

16             But I can't see that there should be any kind of contradiction

17     to, because I haven't been asking for mass returns myself.  I have been

18     asking for security and to have voluntary returns.  If there are many of

19     them, then it's okay.  So I think that we have the same principles.

20        Q.   My question again was:  Were you aware as you were working on the

21     stability pact of the United Nations policy on mass return --

22        A.   Of course, I was aware.  I started -- this was 2002, yes, I

23     started in the end of 2003, and there were new guys who were in the

24     leadership of Kosovo mission UNMIK then.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I tender this Security Council

Page 6628

 1     document into evidence, please.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit Number D691, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D691 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  I will finish by the break, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Good to hear.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   Now I'd like to, because of your knowledge of the events of the

10     situation in Kosovo, call up 1D40-0484.

11             Mrs. Rehn, this is an OSCE report from December of 1999.  It is

12     titled:  "As Seen, As Told, part II."  It is an OSCE analysis of what

13     happened between June and October of 1999 in Kosovo after the United

14     Nations and NATO entered Kosovo.  I'm going to read you a few portions of

15     the foreword.

16             MR. MISETIC:  The document itself is almost 400 pages so we have

17     not uploaded the entire document into evidence; although, it's available

18     if the Court and the Prosecution wish.

19             If we could turn to page 3, please.

20        Q.   Although it's an OSCE report, the special representative of the

21     UN Secretary-General, Dr. Bernard Kouchner, prepared the foreword.  He

22     was the Secretary-General's representative to Kosovo during this

23     time-period.

24             And if you note at the beginning, Mr. Kouchner says:  "This

25     report makes sobering reading.  The human rights violations detailed by

Page 6629

 1     the OSCE's Human Rights Division for the period June-October 1999 include

 2     executions, abductions, torture, cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment,

 3     arbitrary arrests, and attempts to restrict freedom of expression."

 4             The last sentence in that paragraph says:  "Such extensive

 5     violations of fundamental human rights challenge everyone here and the

 6     United Nations interim administration in Kosovo, who are striving to

 7     create the rule of law and respect for human rights, to do more to

 8     address the root causes of abuses."

 9             The bottom paragraph on that page:  "In many of the cases

10     documented by the OSCE in this report, there are serious indications that

11     the perpetrators of human rights violations are either members of the

12     former UCK, people passing themselves off as members of the former UCK,

13     or members of other armed Albanian groups."

14             Then it goes on:  "In many cases, it has been so far impossible

15     to identify exactly those responsible."

16             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to the next page, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Kouchner in the first full paragraph, second or third

18     sentence says:  "We in UNMIK are taking concrete, practical steps to

19     prevent violations.  Nevertheless, the United Nations international

20     civilian police and KFOR need to increase their already impressive

21     activities in Kosovo.  Frequent and visible patrols and developing closer

22     ties to the community will help prevent violations and increase the

23     likelihood of arresting those suspected of committing human rights

24     violations."

25             MR. MISETIC:  Then, finally, two pages up, not the next page but

Page 6630

 1     the page after.

 2        Q.   The top of the page, it says:  "The legacy of human rights

 3     violations that occurred before, during, and after the conflict is a

 4     heavy one.  Recovering from a war is difficult enough, but the problems

 5     are multiplied when the roots of the conflict are essentially a massive

 6     and systematic disregard for human rights.  This report underscores just

 7     how difficult the task is.  Vengeance and fear are all too common in

 8     post-conflict Kosovo.  This vengeance and fear has led to ongoing human

 9     rights violations."

10             And then third paragraph:  "We are deeply concerned about the

11     situation of minorities.  A close look at the trend in crime shows a

12     clear improvement.  A drop from 50 murders during each of the first weeks

13     to three murders last week cannot be ignored."

14             Now, I'm stop there.

15             Dr. Kouchner in Kosovo six months after the UN entered Kosovo

16     says:  "A drop from 50 murders during each of the first weeks to three

17     murders last week cannot be ignored."

18             Are you aware in Croatia of what the murder rate was in Sector

19     South in August of 1995?

20        A.   No, not just without having any kind of statistics here in front

21     of me; and, here again, I have to say with that all situations are very

22     different.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let me --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I'll continue on here and then we can wrap up because I only

Page 6631

 1     have --

 2        A.   Because this jump to Kosovo, very, very familiar to me, is a

 3     little bit I wouldn't say disturbing but surprising perhaps.

 4        Q.   Let's continue on, Mrs. Rehn.

 5             It goes on to say:  "It is not fair to make comparisons with the

 6     situation before or during the war.  At that time, and for at least a

 7     decade, there was a systematic policy of apartheid, a sub-human status,

 8     or at least a sub-community status for Albanians in Kosovo.  This is no

 9     longer the case today.  Perhaps it may seem just as bad today for the

10     Serbs or Roma who live in fear, who cannot move about freely or have to

11     find a way to protect their children, but it is no longer a matter of a

12     policy.  All the parties in Kosovo, all leaders, Serbs and Albanians,

13     have stated their positions in favour of a multi-ethnic society and

14     co-existence among all communities.

15             "The crimes we see are the acts of individuals.  No political

16     party has claimed responsibility for them.  Their representatives in the

17     Kosovo Transitional Council have condemned these abuses every time, and

18     they themselves have expressed their concern over the acts of

19     intolerance.  We cannot exclude the possibility of double talk, but we

20     cannot presuppose it either."

21             Let me wrap up by asking you this:  Dr. Kouchner talks about how

22     the leaders talked about wanting a multi-ethnic society and co-existence

23     among all communities; and at the beginning of my cross-examination, we

24     played a tape of what President Tudjman had said to you on 4 December

25     1995.  Do you agree with me then that what President Tudjman was

Page 6632

 1     discussing there was reconciliation between Serbs and Croats; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you agree with me that it is of course, as Dr. Kouchner here

 4     phrased it, it was possible that he was engaged in double talk and that

 5     possibility can't be excluded but we shouldn't presuppose it either?  Do

 6     you agree with that?

 7        A.   Oh, yes.  It's very similar to what I felt about my discussions

 8     with President Tudjman and members of the Government of Croatia.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Rehn.  Thank you for answering my questions.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I tender this exhibit into evidence.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.  May I just

12     request the Defence to upload the cover page of the document so that we

13     have a complete document available.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, quite frankly, when I downloaded this

16     years ago, it didn't have a cover page, and now the OSCE site was down

17     when I tried to find it this weekend.  Certainly, I will try to find it.

18     It's on the internet or should be anyway.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That for the time is not an objection against

20     admission, then?

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President, no objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this becomes D692.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Ms. Rehn, Mr. Misetic stopped you when you expressed your

Page 6633

 1     surprise about the comparison made.  If you would like to add anything to

 2     that, you're free to do so.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I was -- is this working?

 4     Yes, this is working.  I was a little bit surprised because, as I said,

 5     before every situation, every conflict unfortunately has similarities

 6     with the suffering of civilians nowadays, but also they are quite

 7     different.  And when Mr. Kouchner, or should we call him Minister

 8     Kouchner now, was the first SIG to take over at UNMIK, he had his talks

 9     and that was quite obvious that he was upset about the situation and also

10     heard all these quite nice words from all the different parties.

11             Of course, if we should take a letter from today, so many years

12     later, that could be another tone in these.  But there are so many

13     different situations.  I'm only surprised that justice with Kosovo will

14     be brought -- brought to this trial.  I could have many, many, many own

15     reports on the situation there now and earlier and so, but it's not the

16     case for this trial.

17             I only wanted to express my surprise.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             We'll have a break, but not until after I have formally admitted

20     into evidence D692.  We'll resume at 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may, during the break, I

24     did take a look at the e-mail that we -- that the Defence moved to

25     tender, and it is, in fact, an eight-page document containing seven pages

Page 6634

 1     of e-mail.  I have no objections to its admission; however, we downloaded

 2     the document from the system and it seems that the margin on the system

 3     itself is not there.  But we are now examining the original in the Word

 4     to ensure that we could get a better copies.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If the parties could agree on who sent it and when

 6     and to whom, then, of course, that would certainly assist.  It's a bit of

 7     analysis of the header which is a rather complicated one because it has

 8     been forwarded apparently to another receiver.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's another point, Mr. President.  I wasn't

10     clear based on the e-mail addresses as to whether, in fact, it was an

11     e-mail going from Helsinki Belgrade, but perhaps Mr. Misetic might

12     indicate.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's an e-mail, but a copy of this e-mail

14     apparently was sent by Telefax, because we also find the fax header

15     26th of October, if I remember well.  So let's try to analyse what or how

16     the communications went at the time, and then we can further focus on the

17     content.

18             I'd like to hear from the parties whether there's any agreement

19     on this.

20             Looking at my right, no one is yet standing, but, Mr. Kay, you'll

21     be the next one.

22             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Rehn, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Kay,

24     who's counsel for Mr. Cermak.

25             Please proceed.

Page 6635

 1             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:

 3        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, what we're going to look at is some documents which is

 4     a snap-shot of measures taken by relevant Croatian government ministries

 5     in relation to trying to stop crimes, and this is relevant to one of your

 6     reports filed.

 7             MR. KAY:  And for reference purposes, it doesn't need to be

 8     brought up, but so it can be considered by Their Honours, Exhibit P639,

 9     page 11, paragraph 31.

10        Q.   The first document I'd like you to look at is already in

11     evidence, D49.  This is a document that is dated the 18th of August,

12     1995, it comes from the assistant minister of the Ministry of the

13     Interior, and it was sent by that minister whose name is Josko Maric.

14             First of all, did you ever meet Josko Moric?

15        A.   It's possible but I can't recall it.  I told you and told the

16     Court earlier that I'm very bad with names; and perhaps if I see his

17     face, that's quite something else.

18        Q.   I quite understand.  This was sent by him.  He worked in the

19     Ministry of the Interior, the MUP, to the police stations.

20             MR. KAY:  Can we turn to page 2 of the document.

21        Q.   The Court are familiar with this document, Mrs. Rehn.  And on

22     page 2 of the document, you can see in the text there that he has

23     received information about torching of houses, taking away property, and

24     he refers to most of the acts being perpetrated by individuals wearing

25     Croatian army uniforms.  Then he deals there in the text with whether

Page 6636

 1     they are or are not members of the Croatian army.

 2             He says, as you can see, that these acts are inflicting political

 3     damage on the Republic of Croatia, and then he makes an order.

 4             MR. KAY:  If we turn to page 3.

 5        Q.   In this order, he tells the police administration chiefs.  Again,

 6     the Court are familiar with the structure within the Croatian law of

 7     police stations and administration chiefs.  Were you familiar with the

 8     internal structure of the Croatian system of policing?

 9        A.   Certainly, we talked about it, and it was presented to me when I

10     was there.  This letter, of course, was written before my mandate

11     started, 18th of August; but, of course, we talked about how the

12     structures were built up within the Ministry of Interior.

13        Q.   Yes.  We're going to look at a series of documents now going from

14     August to September.  Don't worry about the date.  It's the orders that

15     are relevant.  Of course, when you're writing your reports, these are

16     already in order.  You can see that there is an order to convene a

17     meeting with the military police.

18             Paragraph 2 deals with the torching of houses, taking of

19     property, not to be operatively investigated in the sense of those that

20     have hitherto occurred, but a stop must be put to cases of this type as

21     of today.  Paragraph 3 deals with military police and check-points, mixed

22     patrols of civilian and military police to be set up.  And in

23     paragraph 4, on-site investigations, forensic, and operative processing

24     will be conducted after every case.  Paragraph 5, if the military police

25     cannot perform the task mentioned in 4, the civilian police will do it

Page 6637

 1     alone irrespective of whether the perpetrator wears an army uniform or

 2     not.

 3             Next page, page 4, deals with the dissemination of this

 4     particular order.  And in your report that I've just referred to, you

 5     were told by the Croatian higher authorities that they had taken steps

 6     and measures in relation to trying to prevent crime; isn't that right?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at the next document.  As I said, it's a

 9     snap-shot of seven, just to put the picture to you.

10             MR. KAY:  This is D584 as marked for identification, Exhibit

11     D584.  It is dated the 19th of August, 1995, otherwise called 65 ter

12     4595, if that makes it easier.

13        Q.   And we'll be looking at a document dated the 19th of August from

14     one of those police administrations back to the MUP and the assistant

15     minister, Mr. Moric.  And it refers to the document we've just looked at.

16     And in this document which is sent by a chief of the Zadar-Knin police

17     administration, he refers to a meeting between the military police and

18     the police administration of Zadar-Knin.  But we can note that the

19     military police pointed out that coordinated action at all check-points

20     was impossible due to lack of personnel.

21             And page 2 of this document is just a conclusion.  We don't need

22     to go into that document.

23             Were you informed about the coordination between the military

24     police and the local police?

25        A.   It's possible, but I'm not sure about this.  This is interesting,

Page 6638

 1     though, with the dates that they had taken steps and had meetings already

 2     before they got the letter from MUP.

 3        Q.   Yes, yes.  And these are -- this is relevant to matters you were

 4     discussing with the government, of course.  Yes.

 5             MR. KAY:  Can we go to the next document, which is D50.

 6        Q.   This is a document dated the 22nd of August.  Again, it's from

 7     the MUP.  It's from Mr. Moric, the assistant minister, again to the

 8     police stations.  Again, it refers to the telegram of the 18th of August.

 9             MR. KAY:  If we turn to page 2, we get to the substance of the

10     text.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if perhaps it could be read, it

12     doesn't say "police stations" but "police administrations," just so we

13     have the terminology.

14             MR. KAY:  I'm very grateful to my learned friend.

15        Q.   Page 2 is the text.  Have a look at that text there to do with

16     the issue of the burning of houses, taking of property unlawfully.  The

17     letter was sent by Mr. Moric to the military police describing the

18     magnitude and significance of the issue.  Military police administration

19     sending an order to the military police battalions, telling them to link

20     with the MUP and police stations to solve the problem, and then requiring

21     monitoring and information about the level of cooperations between the

22     police and the military police.  Do you see that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And a series of questions looking at relevant matters to see how

25     effective these tasks were being performed.  Do you note that?

Page 6639

 1        A.   [No verbal response]

 2        Q.   And would you agree this kind of step and measure is the sort of

 3     matter that you would have approved of at the time?

 4        A.   Yes, absolutely.  And all these measures asked for are exactly

 5     what we would have -- we would have wanted also to happen concretely.

 6        Q.   Yes.  And we can turn to the next page, page 3, where information

 7     about investigations as well is required.  And I take it your answer

 8     would be the same as you've just given, that this would be important from

 9     your perspective; is that right?

10        A.   It is right.

11        Q.   Yes.  Did anyone inform you on your team about these particular

12     measures when you came in on the 27th of September?

13        A.   That's quite possible, but I can't confirm it because coming for

14     the first time to the region in war, I had been -- oh, yes, I was a

15     minister of defence, but that's something else, and not on the same good

16     level as these with the realities.  And I'm sure that I was told about

17     what was asked for also was repeated in my meetings with authorities.  Of

18     course, these detailed letters I didn't have access to, I'm quite sure

19     about that.

20        Q.   And it is fair to say that in your reports to the

21     Secretary-General, that this kind of detail is not in those reports that

22     you have filed?

23        A.   No.  They are not in the sense that, of course, we are telling

24     about the wishes and also the intentions of the authorities.  But we --

25     of course, we've heard a lot what we saw in practice out in the villages,

Page 6640

 1     and that these orders were not in any case fully followed.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. KAY:  The next document is under seal, Your Honours, and

 4     measures have to be taken.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is it --

 6             MR. KAY:  It's --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- a matter not just to be shown to the public or

 8     would the testimony also be confidential?

 9             MR. KAY:  The testimony won't be confidential because that can be

10     dealt with --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the next document should not be shown to the

12     public and that would be, Mr. Kay?

13             MR. KAY:  P502.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P502.

15             MR. KAY:

16        Q.   This is a document here that you can see on the screen,

17     Mrs. Rehn.  I'm not going to go into the detail.  You understand it's a

18     document that's under seal.  You understand why I'm doing this, do you?

19        A.   Yes, if I get it.  Now it's here in English.  It was not in the

20     beginning.  Let's see.

21        Q.   There's no need to go into some of the detail, but you can see

22     here that the matters of check-points, coordination, patrols are dealt

23     with.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And issues of cooperation, all measures that I'm sure you would

Page 6641

 1     approve of; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. KAY:  We can move on from there as we don't need to spend

 5     longer with it, and I know the Trial Chamber are familiar with the

 6     evidence.

 7             Let us turn now to the next document, D589, as it has been MFI'd.

 8     It is 65 ter 1302.  It's not under seal.

 9        Q.   It's dated the 28th of August, it's from the Zadar-Knin police

10     administration sent to that assistant minister, Mr. Moric, who's been

11     involved with this series of orders from the MUP, and it concerns the

12     treatment of people in military uniforms in the liberated area and refers

13     to a significant number of persons wearing Croatian army uniforms,

14     carrying weapons, driving vehicles.

15             MR. KAY:  Let's turn to page 2.

16        Q.   It refers to such people at the top of the page probably being in

17     concert with relatives, friends, and the like, taking property, driving

18     it away, on the basis of written corroborations issued by municipal

19     presidents.  So, obviously, some sort of fraud going on with people with

20     false papers.  Do you see that?

21        A.   I see this.

22        Q.   Would you accept that the situation faced by the Government of

23     Croatia at this time dealing with these liberated territories posed upon

24     them very difficult administrative problems to enforce and maintain the

25     rule of law?

Page 6642

 1        A.   Of course, it was tricky for them to find out who was really

 2     military and when they were wearing uniform, something that I have

 3     already also made clear in my earlier statements here today and

 4     yesterday.  A post-conflict time is always difficult to administer, but,

 5     of course, you should do your best in any case.

 6        Q.   Yes.  And it depends upon the level of resources of a particular

 7     government.  It goes without saying, doesn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Further down the page the author thought it necessary, deemed it

10     necessary, that the local police or persons authorised them should be

11     present at meetings that General Cermak held with members of UNCRO,

12     UNCIVPOL, and other international organizations to ensure police are

13     informed about all agreements.

14             Page 3, it's only two lines but it's always unsatisfactory not

15     finishing a sentence.  Inform them of conclusions reached which will

16     enable them to organize and plan tasks and duties from their purview

17     accordingly.

18             Again, measures, I'm sure you would agree, whereby the Croatian

19     ministry is trying to deal with the problems that they were faced?

20        A.   Certainly, they were trying.

21        Q.   Yes.

22             MR. KAY:  And we've only got two more documents, P499, which is

23     under seal.  Again, we can look at this document without going into any

24     substantive information, Your Honour, so I don't --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown on the screen, but no need to go

Page 6643

 1     into private session.

 2             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   We can all look at this document.  I think you've probably got

 6     the hang of it now, Mrs. Rehn; would that be fair?

 7        A.   Soon, not now.

 8        Q.   I mean about me not going into the detail.

 9        A.   Oh, yes, yes.

10        Q.   It's dated the 1st of September.  And as the text comes up on the

11     screen, you can see that there are problems with the military police.  If

12     we turn to page 2, those problems are identified and you see the wearing

13     of Croatian army uniforms and units that are mopping-up the area from

14     isolated paramilitary units.  That's all we need to go into.

15             Again, this would have been a document that you probably wouldn't

16     have seen; is that right?

17        A.   No, I haven't seen it.

18        Q.   You agree that it shows a sort of continuum of orders that were

19     being issued at the ministry level?

20        A.   Definitely, as the -- as the actions are still going on all the

21     time --

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   -- even if there are other orders.

24        Q.   There are others.  I've taken a little snap-shot to show you on

25     this matter without taking up too much court time.

Page 6644

 1             MR. KAY:  The last document is a public document, D596.  I'm told

 2     to use the 2D numbers.  This is another MFI, 2D04-0216.  The translation

 3     is 18.  Yes.  I'm getting the hang of reading the documents in B/C/S now.

 4             This is a document dated the 19th of September to the police

 5     administrations.  You can see Zadar-Knin, Knin there, referring to an

 6     earlier telegram which the Court is familiar with, referring to the fact

 7     that on the 15th of September, the military police is no longer present

 8     at entrance and exit check-points to the liberated areas.  Activities of

 9     the military police will include car patrols assigned to the task of

10     constant patrolling, obligatory reporting to "our," which would be the

11     MUP, check-points and radio communications.

12             Turning to page 2, the same assistant minister who signed this

13     letter, Mr. Moric, has said:  "Keep previous check-points, thus, that you

14     change the locations of their establishment ..."

15             And in essence what means, because people find ways of getting

16     round check-points, move them around and more patrols and foot patrols to

17     carry out basic police tasks.

18             Last of the documents, but again the sort of information and

19     actions that would have been in accordance with your wishes?

20        A.   It would be very odd if I should say they are not because this is

21     all what we wanted to happen also in the practice.

22        Q.   Yes.  We've looked actually at documents that range from the

23     highest levels going down to a more basic level.  So it's been all the

24     way through in this snap-shot of documents throughout the system, so down

25     to the police stations in the field not just being sent between ministry

Page 6645

 1     departments.  Did you understand that?

 2        A.   Mm-hmm.

 3        Q.   Yes?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was there any presentation to you of these measures during your

 6     meetings?

 7        A.   During the meetings with the ministers, I can't recall that they

 8     should have gone to practical details like these, very important details.

 9     It would have been gone if they could have been much more explicit with

10     what they told, because they said we are doing everything we can and we

11     are giving our orders to the police stations and so on and so on.

12     Everybody's aware of what they should do, but, of course, the

13     presentation of direct, and I think most of these letters are also

14     strongly confidential.  So they certainly didn't want to show anything

15     like that, even if it would have been in their own interest.

16        Q.   The Court knows the evidence.  This is part of, let me just say,

17     a hundred documents, all right, this snap-shot, or more.  It would have

18     been helpful to you at the time to perhaps have a presentation, not

19     necessarily by me but someone else, of what was happening in the system

20     so that you could have reported on it, I dare say.  Is that right?

21        A.   Of course, I reported that we got our overviews what was told to

22     us from the ministerial level.  But for us, of course, the most important

23     thing was the orders were strictly also followed, that there was a clear

24     tendency that every policeman or woman - I can't remember if there were

25     police women then - that everyone really followed the orders in spite of

Page 6646

 1     the pressure perhaps from their fellow Croatians in the villages.

 2        Q.   You referred earlier this morning to the neighbours problem --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- which you would agree is difficult to deal with?

 5        A.   Absolutely.  And I have many times stated that police are also

 6     human beings with all the weaknesses and the strength, and these are

 7     difficult things to be dealing with in your close neighbourhood.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.

 9             MR. KAY:  I have no further questions.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

11             If you would allow me one second.

12             Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready?

13             Mrs. Rehn, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic, who is

14     counsel for Mr. Markac.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

17        Q.   Good morning, ma'am.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   I'm going to be covering a lot of documents with you, so we're

20     going to need to have just a little bit of patience as they're called up.

21     So I just want you to keep that in mind when I'm asking you questions and

22     when you're giving me answers.

23             Before I get into some of the documents, I wanted to follow-up on

24     a few things that were discussed in your earlier testimony.  You had

25     mentioned that at one of your visits to Croatia, you personally had

Page 6647

 1     observed some looting that was going on; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Who was with -- who was with your party when you observed this?

 4        A.   During my first visit, that was in Sector North and I understood

 5     that I should not talk about that.

 6        Q.   That's correct.  Thank you.

 7        A.   Yes.  And then during my next visit, I had with me Roman

 8     Wieruszewski; I had with me my security officer, Heljo Laukkala, a major

 9     then in the Finnish army; and then we had an interpreter; and I can't

10     recall who was then the interpreters for every of these.  Somebody was

11     also driving.  It could have been Sasa Milosevic, it could have been

12     somebody else.  But we had always a team of the human rights staff.

13        Q.   Okay.  Did you report this, what you observed, to any local

14     police station or any local authorities that could have probably

15     investigated it?

16        A.   Not directly, I didn't report, because it had -- it was also the

17     duty of the staff to report on this.  But, of course, I mentioned it in

18     my meetings with the administration of -- on the ministerial level.

19        Q.   Okay.  So when you observed this as you were making your tour of

20     Croatia, it's true, in fact, that at least at the time this occurred, you

21     did not report this to any political or police authority while you were

22     on your tour; correct?

23        A.   I met police officers during my visits.  I always had meetings

24     with police, and then I told about this.  But I can't just make now a

25     list of that.  I have reported then, and then on that and that.  Of

Page 6648

 1     course, we had a list then of everything that we saw that was made

 2     afterwards, and then brought to the attention of the Croatian authorities

 3     on different levels.  But again, I have to recall that my work was -- I

 4     was living in Finland; I made my tours that the Human Rights Commission

 5     paid for the travel, DSA; and then I went back again to Finland.  So that

 6     in that sense I was not there to take actions.  I was a reporter,

 7     reporting on what I had seen.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Before you came to testify here in The Hague,

 9     did you meet with or talk with anyone other than representatives of the

10     Office of the Prosecutor about your testimony here?

11        A.   Of course, when I was called for the first time in 2005, I talked

12     with my security officer, who is now in a private company as chief of

13     security, and so we talked about this and compared our impressions from

14     those times.

15        Q.   Who was that person?

16        A.   Heljo Laukkala.  His name is here in the papers.

17        Q.   Anyone else?

18        A.   With my family of course, my children and grandchildren, not with

19     my great-grandchild because she was too small.

20        Q.   There was a discussion that you had during Mr. Misetic's

21     cross-examination about the issue of what went on in Kosovo.  I just

22     wanted to ask you one question about that.  The report that was read to

23     you or the portion of the report that was read to you discussed that the

24     murder rate had dropped from 50 murders per week to roughly three murders

25     per week in a six-month time-frame.  Were you aware that in that

Page 6649

 1     time-frame, the responsible authorities for maintaining law and order in

 2     Kosovo were UNMIK and KFOR?

 3        A.   Of course, because I gave the report, the advices from when being

 4     the SIG for UNMIK to Secretary-General, some advices how the UNMIK should

 5     be built up from my experiences.  So I was very strongly aware of what

 6     happened in Kosovo after all my years of reporting on Kosovo.

 7        Q.   And you were aware, were you not, that UNMIK and KFOR were very

 8     well equipped, very well trained, had the latest in technology available

 9     to them at that time?

10        A.   Oh, yes, because I visited the Finnish contingent several times.

11        Q.   You had discussed during your direct examination your impressions

12     about whether or not President Tudjman was interested in the plight of

13     the Serb return to Croatia, and you thought or it was your impression you

14     said that he was not interested in that.

15             I wanted to ask you a question about that.  Whether or not

16     President Tudjman, as you say, was interested or not interested in the

17     Serb return to Croatia, they did, in fact, return.  At least as of

18     January of 2000, a total of 41.000 Serbs returned to Croatia, did they

19     not?

20        A.   I think what happened in 1995 in discussions is something that

21     can't be compared with what happened until then 2000, because these times

22     when I was reporting there was not a clear willingness of having the

23     Serbs to return.  So I think that we have all to be very grateful that

24     perhaps partly, for a little part, my reports on the situation after

25     Operation Storm in Croatia were helpful for the authorities to really

Page 6650

 1     take strong actions.

 2        Q.   Sure, I understand you.  I understand --

 3        A.   Yes.  Because, of course, there must have been returns until

 4     2000, and that has nothing to do with what was the atmosphere in 1995.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So at least you would agree that whether President Tudjman

 6     was or wasn't interested in their return, they did, in fact, return, and

 7     up to 41.000 returned as of January of 2000?

 8        A.   Yes, out of 180.000.

 9        Q.   Do you know how many have returned to date?

10        A.   I have no idea because my work is now in totally different parts

11     of the world.

12        Q.   Would it surprise you to know that over 120.000 Serbs have

13     returned to Croatia since 1995?

14        A.   I'm very pleased to have this figure.

15        Q.   I'd like to go through some documents with you now, please.

16     Obviously, you wrote several reports during --

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may ask counsel what the

18     source of that -- the basis of that question was.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we can look at D420, that was the source.  It

20     was admitted during Mr. Galbraith's testimony.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  We don't have to put it up on the screen, but

23     that's the source.

24        Q.   There was a lot of discussion, Ms. Rehn, about things like

25     amnesty for people who were involved in armed conflict against Croatia.

Page 6651

 1     You remember that discussion, do you not?

 2        A.   Absolutely.

 3        Q.   You were aware that from October of 1996 through June of 1998,

 4     there were close to 19.000 people who were amnestied by President

 5     Tudjman?

 6        A.   I don't have that figure.  You have to remember that I also left

 7     my duties as Special Rapporteur in the end of 1997 when I entered as the

 8     SIG in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Were you aware of laws or decrees that were

10     passed by President Tudjman amnestying people before Operation Storm?

11        A.   No.  I'm not aware of all these documents.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, to save time and not deal with

13     these documents directly with Ms. Rehn, since it's on this theme, we're

14     preparing a bar table submission relating to amnesty and the number of

15     people that were amnestied because it's on this topic.  It's a lot of

16     documentation that is taking a while to translate, but I just wanted to

17     make the Court aware of that, that we will submit a bar table submission

18     and obviously discuss it with the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, of course, we would hear from the

20     Prosecution if there's any objection against that.  I noticed that quite

21     a lot of time was spent on the amnesty issue here; whereas, my

22     understanding of Mrs. Rehn's testimony is that, of course, it was very

23     welcome to Serbs who wanted to return and were fearing that they might be

24     investigated and prosecuted for having been a member of the armed forces

25     of the ARSK or the ARSK, that that was one concern; but that there was

Page 6652

 1     another concern that those who were not amnestied and were suspected of

 2     having committed war crimes, whether Serbs or Croats, that that would

 3     happen.

 4             And I noticed that quite a lot of the attention was shifted from

 5     what I understood one apparent concern of Mrs. Rehn, that is, no

 6     investigations, no prosecutions against Croats suspected of having

 7     committed war crimes, that that was a concern which was a bit different

 8     from whether the matter that Serbs were fearing to be prosecuted for

 9     having been loyal to the wrong government or having been in the wrong

10     army, that that was a rather separate, other concern.

11             Now, the fear and the reasons why there would have existed fear

12     for returning is, of course, also in this case seems to be not exactly

13     the same as the other matter; that is, whether sufficient efforts were

14     made to investigate and prosecute war crimes that may have been

15     committed.  If you would keep that -- Mr. Misetic is nodding no.  So,

16     therefore --

17             MR. MISETIC:  It's just -- we actually talked about this last

18     night because this discussion came up in court yesterday.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. MISETIC:  And we are completely confused as to what the issue

21     is, and I am still completely confused as to what the issue is.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's ask, then, Mrs. Rehn whether you

23     consider this two, separate problems and whether you could tell us what

24     bothers you more than the other or less than the other.

25             THE WITNESS:  My concern, of course, in this specific case of the

Page 6653

 1     Operation Storm was what happened to those who went out.  My concerns --

 2     and it was not my mandate to talk about what happened earlier, what was

 3     wrong and right before that, what the Serbs did to Croatia when taking

 4     over this Krajina region.  And my concern was about what happened to the

 5     Serbs during Operation Storm when they found or feared to stay whatever

 6     security they could perhaps have had to stay.  But they escaped to

 7     different neighbouring countries, 180.000 of them or something else, it

 8     will never be stated exactly.  And what kind of fears they had to return

 9     back home, not only the neighbours and their attitude, but their

10     security.

11             Then this question of amnesty law, that will it make them unsafe,

12     what will really happen.  They didn't understand who, who was covered by

13     the amnesty and who was not, however clear it might have been.  So they

14     are two different cases, you are absolutely right, Your Honour.  But if

15     this is confusing, let's be all accused then.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I think it would not be appropriate to

17     enter into a full debate between Chamber and counsel on these matters.

18             MR. MISETIC:  The problem, of course, Your Honour, is that while

19     the witness is still here to the extent that there is an issue that we

20     can clarify with her, it is perhaps something we can discuss before the

21     next break so that she's not present in the room.  However, I don't

22     see -- I think we're talking about apples and oranges.  The issue being

23     raised by the Defence is not what her motivation was or the motivation of

24     the international community.  The issue is whether a general amnesty law

25     was passed.

Page 6654

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I think that -- let's discuss it at a

 2     later stage and in the absence of the witness.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't think I misunderstand you.  The issue might

 5     be, as you say, apples and oranges, fine.  I thought that the witness was

 6     talking about apples, and that you moved on with the oranges.  That's my

 7     concern.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If I --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have an opportunity at a later stage to see

10     what my concern and what my problem is, then we do that in the absence of

11     the witness.

12             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I guess the only thing

15     I would add to that before I move on is that we're sort of talking in the

16     abstract about this.  The bar table submission, I think, will make it

17     clear when we file it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And we will do it as quickly as we can, given

20     the amount of translations.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no problem.  You may have noted that the

22     witness very much emphasized that she, although knowing about the

23     abstract, very much wanted to look at the concrete as well.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Right.  And I know she had -- the witness had

25     said she's not a lawyer, so that's another of the reasons why we want to

Page 6655

 1     enter these laws at this point.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps good for her.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I can't study now in a short while the

 4     full --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed, and I hope we don't

 6     have the full fruit basket within the next half-hour.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Me either, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 8             If we could please call up P639.

 9        Q.   Ms. Rehn, I'll submit, while we're waiting for the document to

10     get up on the screen, this is your report of 7 November 1995 to the

11     United Nations, and I wanted to ask you a few questions about this

12     document.

13             It's true, is it not, that every time you submitted a report

14     regarding Croatia as you are -- during the course of your term, Croatia

15     submitted a written response to you; correct?

16        A.   Yes.  I have already stated that that was one of the reasons for

17     the reports, to get the governments in the former Yugoslavia to react in

18     a positive way.

19        Q.   And would you agree with me that at least, as far as you're

20     concerned, the Croatian government did act in a positive way to your

21     reports?

22        A.   Yes, absolutely.  And I have paid a lot of credit to them in my

23     reports, grateful for the cooperation.

24        Q.   You did begin on page 6 of your report, and feel free to let me

25     know when you have that in front of you.  If you have the hard copy,

Page 6656

 1     Mrs. Rehn, it might be easier for you to follow the hard copy because if

 2     we go from page to page, it takes a little longer on the screen?

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It's at tab 5.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, counsel.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6             Okay, I'm ready.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 8        Q.   Okay.  If you go to page 6, paragraph 13.  You did discuss, at

 9     least in your first report, some of the history of what happened in

10     former Sectors North and South before Operation Storm, correct --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- as a historical context?  In the middle of that paragraph 13,

13     it states:  "First, almost the entire Croatian population was forced to

14     leave both former Sectors as a consequence of serious human rights

15     violations committed against them by the de facto Serb authorities.

16     Secondly, Serbian refugees and displaced persons from other parts of

17     Croatia came to reside in these territories.

18             @despite all efforts, neither the United Nations Protection

19     Force, UNPROFOR, in the former Yugoslavia, nor the United Nations

20     Confidence Restoration Operation in Croatia, UNCRO, was able to

21     facilitate the return of Croatian refugees and displaced persons to these

22     territories, even as an international presence was not able to provide

23     effective protection for the remaining non-Serbian population in that

24     area."

25             And I'll pause for the translation.  Did I go slow enough?

Page 6657

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You're the one who reads so slowly that the

 2     translation's able to follow.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  All right.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   The Croatian government responded to that in P684 [sic].  That's

 5     at several parts, but what I wanted to do at this point was just go over

 6     to P684 [sic], if we could.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And, counsel, if you could give me the tab

 8     number for Ms. Rehn, so she could follow in the hard copy, I would be

 9     grateful.  Hand keep your hand on that page.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Are you referring to P640, by any chance?

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  648.  If I said 684, it's my dyslexia.  I'm

12     sorry.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Tab 16, Mrs. Rehn.

14             THE WITNESS:  16.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Tab 16.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, counsel.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

19        Q.   If you look at paragraph 6, which I believe is the second -- on

20     the second page of this report.  While we realize now after your

21     testimony that your focus was on occurrences during and after Operation

22     Storm, the Croatian government responds that there were approximately

23     more than -- or there were more than 600 civilians who were killed by

24     Serb paramilitaries during the UNPROFOR/UNCRO mandate in a time where

25     there was technically no war in Croatia; correct?

Page 6658

 1        A.   Oh, yes, it's stated here.  And you have, of course, to remember

 2     that the Special Rapporteur here means, Tadeusz Mazowiecki, and not

 3     Elisabeth Rehn.

 4        Q.   Correct, understood.  Now, if we go back to your report, and if

 5     you -- I'm going to try to do not too much going back and forth.  But

 6     since P648 is a response to your response which is P639, if you could

 7     keep your hand on one of them while you're flipping back and forth.

 8             If we could go to page 8, paragraph 22, there's a discussion of

 9     information provided by the Croatian authorities on 30 August, indicating

10     that during Operation Storm, 526 Serbs where are killed, 116 of them

11     civilians; that 211 Croatian soldiers and policemen and 42 Croatian

12     civilians were killed; and that 907 persons were detained for

13     investigation, 704 of whom are still in detention.

14             What I wanted -- the reason for the comparison of the two is I

15     wanted to ask you:  Did you have any information in your report that

16     would dispute, at least from the Croatian authority side, how many

17     persons were killed during the course of Operation Storm, as listed in

18     paragraph 22?

19        A.   I definitely can't say that this would be wrong or right because

20     that was an information that we have got, and it's impossible for me to

21     have numbers and figures here now.  For me then, it was most interesting

22     with those cases that we raised and never got a final answer from the

23     Croatian authorities.

24        Q.   Okay.  And the reason I point that out is during the

25     UNPROFOR/UNCRO mandate when there was technically no armed combat, there

Page 6659

 1     was 600 civilians killed.  During the course of military -- in Croatia

 2     under Serb occupation, and during the course of armed combat, as noted in

 3     paragraph 22, at least from the Croatian authority side, less people were

 4     killed in a time-frame during the course of the war.

 5             Now, my question to you is, with respect to the number of people

 6     killed, I think you said you did not have any other information at your

 7     disposal that would be able to prove or disprove that number; correct?

 8        A.   Of this during my time.

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   Of course, what happened earlier is something that I was not even

11     asking for the configuration.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go back to P648, please.

14        Q.   The first page of P648 is actually the cover letter from deputy

15     prime minister and minister of foreign affairs, Dr. Mate Granic.  Had you

16     had a chance to meet Dr. Granic, Ms. Rehn?

17        A.   We have -- we have reported on several meetings with Mr. Granic.

18        Q.   Yes.  I just -- you knew who he was; correct?

19        A.   Absolutely.  I met him many times.

20        Q.   The second-last paragraph of his letter states:  "I avail myself

21     of the opportunity to reiterate the unwavering commitment of my

22     government to the overall development of the democratic system, rule of

23     law, and human rights in Croatia."

24             Now, having had a chance to meet Dr. Granic and talk with him,

25     did you believe him that that's actually how he felt when he wrote this?

Page 6660

 1        A.   Dr. Granic had a very good team of people around him, and I

 2     remember well that especially Mrs. Simunovic was very devoted to human

 3     rights who was his assistant on the human rights side.  I believe that he

 4     tried and he wanted to make it right.  I'm not sure that he could fulfil

 5     everything that he promised.

 6             But as I said, we met several times.  He was always available

 7     when I asked for a meeting, and that was, of course, something that I

 8     appreciated very much.  He had a real dialogue.

 9        Q.   Did it seem to you that from your perspective in dealing with

10     Dr. Granic that the Croatian government through its foreign affairs

11     minister had a commitment to try to make things better and right?

12        A.   I have mentioned earlier and I mention it again that when I

13     insisted on renewals in the system like the Ombudsman, it was immediately

14     taken forward and there was also other steps taken.  And I must say that

15     in their answers to my reports, we always got something new and positive

16     that was also meant with the reports.  You have to remember that a human

17     rights reporter must be totally objective, neutral, and just look to what

18     is really happening.

19        Q.   Understood.  And, with that, you need to determine the intent of

20     someone and what they're trying to do as well, don't you?

21        A.   Sorry.  Can you repeat yourself?

22        Q.   Sure.  When you look and evaluate what a country is doing, you

23     try to look and see what the intent is of the people who are trying to

24     accomplish those goals, do you not?

25        A.   Of course, I'm looking to the intent, but even more to the

Page 6661

 1     results.

 2        Q.   Sure.  And we can say, at least as far as refugee return that

 3     we've heard of, the results have been substantial over the course of

 4     time, have they not?

 5        A.   Yes.  But not during the time from 1995 to 1997.

 6        Q.   And --

 7        A.   And that is what I'm covering.

 8        Q.   Understood.  The paragraph 10 of your -- of Dr. Granic's

 9     response -- actually, I'm sorry, not paragraph 10.  Paragraph 16.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Again, for the record, that's P648.

11        Q.   In paragraph 17, Dr. Granic provides some statistical information

12     on the damage that Croatia suffered during the war and occupation, and

13     also discusses to some extent the fires that occurred on the territory

14     after Operation Storm.

15             Now, at least at this point in time, there is no accurate number

16     that you -- you've talked about some numbers in terms of homes that were

17     destroyed in that territory.  There is no accurate number that can give

18     us a figure as to how many homes were destroyed as a result of either

19     arson or as a result of conduct by persons after the war?

20        A.   Yes.  We have still these 5.000 estimated that we have been

21     talking about already earlier.

22        Q.   You see the Croatian government here has a different number,

23     which I would assume you would think was low, that there was some houses

24     that were caught on fire as a consequence of war operations, and at least

25     as of this -- date of this report, 715 were partly or totally destroyed

Page 6662

 1     by having been intentionally set on fire.  Obviously, there's a huge

 2     discrepancy between 715 and 5.000, but would you agree with me that an

 3     accurate number would have to be somewhere in between those two?

 4        A.   That's possible, that's possible.  But I don't -- I don't take

 5     any kind of strong standpoint on this, as it's impossible for me to

 6     verify here, as it was not even then when the questions were actual for

 7     and we dealt with them.

 8        Q.   Understood.  Ms. Rehn, when you were on your tour, did you ever

 9     take any pictures of anything that you saw?

10        A.   There are a lot of pictures.

11        Q.   That you took?

12        A.   Private, private photos, yes, especially my security major took

13     pictures.

14        Q.   Do you know whether or not it was a policy of yours as Special

15     Rapporteur to photograph areas that you went to see for official

16     purposes?

17        A.   These pictures are very private, and they have not been used at

18     all for anything else.  It was -- it was a documentation of one period of

19     my life.

20        Q.   Oh, I understand that, Mrs. Rehn.  I was just asking you if there

21     was any official policy on whether or not Special Rapporteur would

22     photograph --

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   Definitely not, at least not anything that was told to me.  Just

Page 6663

 1     because of the freedom of the Special Rapporteur, there were really cases

 2     like in Bosnia and Herzegovina when I went against the explicit orders of

 3     the United Nations mission to go to a place that was dangerous, and I

 4     have even photos from there.

 5        Q.   Ms. Rehn, would you agree with me that at least during your time

 6     in Croatia, no one ever prevented you from going out to see what you

 7     really wanted to see?

 8        A.   I must say that it was really a luxury to be a Special Rapporteur

 9     on human rights in this whole territory -- in that whole territory,

10     because even in Serbia and Montenegro, I got the right to walk around

11     wherever I wanted.  I got it from President Milosevic directly, and that

12     was something my predecessor didn't have.

13        Q.   Sure, I understand that.  I specifically asked you about Croatia,

14     though.

15        A.   Yes, of course.  But I want to make it clear that there were no

16     limits, limitations, for me in the territory of my mandate.

17        Q.   If you take a look, Ms. Rehn, at paragraph 18 of P648, again,

18     Dr. Granic in his response to your report provides some statistical

19     information about criminal acts of grand theft.

20             And he notes in his last sentence:  " ... some data from the

21     Special Rapporteur's report are impossible to verify because they are

22     incomplete and vague."

23             It's fair to state that his observation regarding your report on

24     verification is accurate, is it not?

25        A.   There were case, like the Grubori case, that is in one way

Page 6664

 1     destroying a lot of what he is saying because there were clear

 2     verification.  There was a correspondence between us, and I never could

 3     get and have not get until this day any kind of explanation of who were

 4     the perpetrators.  So that took a little bit out of the competence of

 5     what he == or accuracy of what he said.

 6        Q.   Sure, I understand.  My question was related to criminal acts of

 7     grand theft which is noted in paragraph 18, not anything else.  It's

 8     true, is it not, that with respect to the 1.054 criminal acts of grand

 9     theft that have been recorded in the liberated territories, there were

10     some data from the Special Rapporteur that were impossible to verify

11     because they are incomplete and vague; correct?

12        A.   It's quite possible because, as I have told so many times before

13     here, that the data were collected by my staff through discussions with

14     other UN agencies and others and by what they found out themselves, and

15     it's possible that in some cases it could have been difficult to follow

16     up for the administration.

17        Q.   If you go to the next page, Ms. Rehn -- Mrs. Rehn, I'm sorry.

18        A.   Oh, you can call me whatever you want.

19        Q.   All right.  Paragraph 22, there's a discussion that there are --

20     from Dr. Granic in his response that there are some 3 million land-mines

21     scattered throughout Croatia.

22             I mean, that's a significant obstacle in many instances to

23     getting people to return, is it not?

24        A.   Yes, that is something I have been able to feel myself when

25     travelling around.

Page 6665

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P650, please.

 2        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, this is your report of December of 1995.  This is your

 3     second report; correct?

 4        A.   That must be, yes.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, for the record, that --

 6     although it was marked as P650, it's an exhibit tendered before

 7     under P477, and it was corrected this morning.  So the exhibit number

 8     is P477.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you for that, counsel.  I appreciate that.

10     As I said before, math is not my strong suit.

11        Q.   If we go to page --

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  You can find it, Ms. Rehn, at tab 19.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, counsel.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I have it here now.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

17        Q.   Thank you.  If you could please go to page 5, and in

18     paragraph 18, you actually cite Dr. Granic's response in the report

19     itself; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And there are some additional information which you note in

22     paragraph 19, which says:  "On 16 November," and I'm looking at the

23     fourth line going into the fifth line of paragraph 19.

24             "On 16 November, a senior Croatian police official reported to

25     the United Nations that three Croatian soldiers had been arrested in

Page 6666

 1     connection with looting, intimidation, and harassment of civilians in the

 2     area.  The three had then been transferred to the Karlovac military

 3     headquarters.  United Nations observers have witnessed incidents where

 4     property has been confiscated from looters by Croatian police."

 5             Now, was that reported to you by the UN military observers?  Can

 6     you give me any more definition on who the United Nations observers were

 7     who that you are referring to there?

 8        A.   No.  It could have been whoever of all the different agencies,

 9     all the different organizations who were operating there, so I can't give

10     you any clearance on who exactly this was.

11        Q.   In paragraph 20, you note on the third line from the bottom going

12     into the second line from the bottom:  "Croatian authorities have made

13     efforts to confiscate and return property, but it appears that these have

14     been insufficient to address the magnitude of the problem."

15             Can you give us any indication as to what you mean by that they

16     may have been insufficient?

17        A.   In the paragraph before, there is the mentioning of that -- that

18     property has been confiscated from looters by Croatian police, but that

19     nothing more has been then happening to these; and that if my memory is

20     telling me rightly, that what happened to this property in the very end

21     was quite unclear for our observers.

22        Q.   Okay.  So you were referring to that specific case, not anything

23     in general?

24        A.   No, I think this is quite general.

25        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Thank you.

Page 6667

 1             If we could go to page 10 of this report, Mrs. Rehn, please, and

 2     if you look at paragraph 41.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

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Page 6668

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 6   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6669











11  Page 6669 redacted. Private session.















Page 6670

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 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 6671

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'm about to start another theme,

 4     and I don't know if it's a good time to break now or should we break

 5     early.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you give us an indication how much time you

 7     would still need, so it can give us an indication whether we should break

 8     now or in ten minutes.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I would say 20 minutes to half an hour at most.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Mahindaratne, how much time would you need?

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I think 15 minutes to 20

12     minutes at the moment.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you gave us a time estimate yesterday,

16     Mr. Kuzmanovic, which was --

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I thought it was an hour to an hour and a half,

18     Your Honour, if I'm not mistaken.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Hour to an hour and a half.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I know --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I know you know how much time I've taken; I

23     don't.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll check about the information.  Of course,

25     we'd like to conclude the --

Page 6672

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Most definitely.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- testimony of Mrs. Rehn.  Well, it depends on how

 3     many questions we would have.

 4             Then there's no need at this moment to continue because you'll

 5     not finish before the break.  However, Mr. Misetic, you're on your feet.

 6     You have on your mind the other matter.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Before the witness leaves in case there's

 8     something that needs to be put to her about the issue.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will, first of all, ask the usher to

10     escort Mrs. Rehn out of the courtroom.  We'll spend two or three minutes

11     on this matter, and then we'll resume in approximately 20 minutes.  And

12     after that, Mr. Kuzmanovic, you are encouraged to see whether you could

13     finish in certainly not more than 25 minutes.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will do so.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, we're discussing the matter in the

17     absence of -- as far as I'm concerned, I see that there are two topics.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  It may be helpful if I explain what I was

19     cross-examining on --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. MISETIC:  -- and that may alleviate some of the -- at least

22     my confusion.

23             At page 18, lines 3 to 25 of yesterday's transcript,

24     Ms. Mahindaratne tried to introduce to the witness the issue of whether

25     the general amnesty act was intended to cover only the act of rebellion

Page 6673

 1     or all crimes committed in connection with the armed conflict.  The

 2     purpose of my cross-examination was to show through the witness that the

 3     act was intended to be as broad as possible, to cover all crimes as

 4     possible.  The fact that incidental to that inquiry was the issue of the

 5     underlying policy reason from the international community was to make it

 6     as broad as possible for Serbs was incidental to my cross-examination.

 7     The main issue being what was the intent of having the law as broad as

 8     possible.

 9             The other issues that have now been introduced -- so when we say

10     apples to oranges, I thought it was apples to apples as to what I was

11     crossing in response to directly to something that had been raised direct

12     examination.  The other issues now that the Trial Chamber has I'm not as

13     clear on what the -- where the miscommunication is between on what I

14     intended to show on cross and what issues were raised in response to my

15     cross.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I may be confused by the sequence of the

17     examination.  I think that the amnesty law immediately followed concerns

18     expressed by the witness on no prosecution for war crimes.  Now, it is

19     clear that war crimes - I would understand that easily to be war crimes,

20     crimes against humanity, so international crimes - are to be excluded

21     from the amnesty law in any case.  To what extent theft and other common

22     crimes are excluded is, of course, another matter.

23             But I thought that the witness expressed some concerns about

24     international crimes, to say so, not being prosecuted, and that the issue

25     of what was exactly covered by the amnesty law is a different issue.  As

Page 6674

 1     long as that is clear, I have no further problems.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I agree with that as long as it's clear that we

 3     will be addressing the issue, because the issue of international crimes

 4     in this context is also an issue that needs to be further developed in

 5     the course of this trial and the classification of them and, more

 6     importantly, who it is in the Croatian system that's responsible for

 7     making the determination as to whether something is an international

 8     crime as opposed to a domestic crime.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. MISETIC:  These are all issues to be developed.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And who are prosecuted for crimes allegedly

12     committed, in what context and what period.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Correct.  That's correct, Your Honour.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I could just explain.  The

15     reason I explored this issue with the witness is based on the bar table

16     submission made by the Defence.  We were alerted to this line of

17     argument, and that is the reason I explored this area with the witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             At this moment, I do not feel that there is great confusion, not

20     even small confusion.  So we can leave the matter, as far as I'm

21     concerned, as it is at this moment.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as the Bench is concerned, we'll have a break

24     and we'll resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

Page 6675

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Could we please have P600.  I know the 65 ter number is 309.  I'm

 6     almost certain it's P600.  But if I'm wrong, I'm sure Mr. Registrar will

 7     correct me.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It's at tab 3.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the second page of that,

10     please.

11        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, this is another response from Minister Granic and the

12     Croatian government regarding your report to the Security Council.  And

13     if we could go to page 4, there is a response on page 4 regarding

14     measures taken against individuals and groups to perpetrated crimes in

15     the liberated areas after Operation Storm.

16             And under that same heading on page 5, in the first full

17     paragraph --

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Actually, the bottom right-hand corner on the

19     left document, it says "3."  It's actually page 5 of the document itself.

20     It might not be page 5 of the exhibit.  I will say page 5 of the document

21     itself.  Thank you.

22        Q.   There's some statistical information, again, provided in response

23     to your report about criminal proceedings underway in military and

24     civilian courts against 1.005 persons who stand accused of having

25     committed crimes during and after Operation Storm.  And there's a

Page 6676

 1     discussion of what stages some of these proceedings are in, where they

 2     are taking place, and also there's an annex that's appended which I don't

 3     know if it's appended to this specific 62 [sic] ter or P document.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go very last page, which is page 10

 5     of P600.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, the document I have in front of

 7     me -- oh, no, that must be a mistake.

 8             Yes, please proceed.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Okay.

10             Just to ask the registrar, is there another page beyond this last

11     page 10 to this exhibit?  Okay.  If we could go to that, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I've got a 31-page document from what I see.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Then the document I have must not be complete.

15     I'll just refer -- if we could call up 3D00-1588, please -- I'm sorry,

16     I'm sorry.  Don't call that up.  I'll stick with this particular

17     document.  That's the next document.  My confusion.  I apologise.

18             We will go back to this same document that we're on, page 7 on

19     the lower right-hand corner.

20        Q.   There is also a discussion on return of refugees and displaced

21     persons, which states as of 10 January 1996, there were little under

22     3.000 requests for the return of just over 4.500 Serbs who left, and that

23     a description of the processing that's done of 50 files per day.

24             And if you can look at the following page, page 8, there's a

25     notation in the first full paragraph, the fourth line down, which -- in

Page 6677

 1     which Dr. Granic is explaining that there are 180.000 displaced persons

 2     within Croatia and 192.500 refugees on the territory of the Republic of

 3     Croatia.  So, in addition to dealing with attempts for processing of

 4     returnees of Serbs, they had several hundred thousand displaced people

 5     and refugees that they had to deal with, which is understandable in that

 6     situation, is it not, Mrs. Rehn?

 7        A.   Yes.  And I also pointed out in my earlier statements that you

 8     have to remember that there is -- was a great amount of refugees and

 9     displaced persons within the -- Croatia.

10        Q.   And despite the fact that there was some bureaucratic obstacles

11     with regard to the return of Serb refugees, there was also a huge problem

12     of dealing with the people who were already displaced within Croatia;

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes, that is what I said.

15        Q.   If you look further on this same page, there is a discussion that

16     the Croatian government terminated the dead-line by which Serbs who had

17     left had to return to reclaim their property.  So, at least from that

18     standpoint, a potential bureaucratic obstacle was removed; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   If we go to page 10 of this same document --

21        A.   But there is not said how much they terminated it.

22        Q.   Well, I'll submit to you that for the record there, the

23     termination of the dead-line means that the dead-line was eliminated

24     completely from the law.  So there was no dead-line as of the date of

25     this lay, 17 January 1996.

Page 6678

 1             At least, you don't have any information to the contrary that

 2     there was a dead-line beyond this law, do you?

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, Mr. Kuzmanovic is reading

 4     evidence into the record.  He said he submits it for the record.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That means that it is not evidence.  He gives

 6     his personal opinion about the information he has in order to -- the

 7     Chamber will, of course, ignore that as evidence, but it might assist at

 8     this moment, even if we do not have this law immediately at hand, the

 9     version of the 17th of January, 1996, that Mr. Kuzmanovic leads the

10     witness in this respect.  But it's certainly not to be considered to be

11     evidence.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sure.  Your Honour, I think that document is

13     already in evidence.  I don't have the particular D number right now, but

14     I will before the end of the day get it to Your Honours regarding this

15     law.  It's already in evidence through Mr. Galbraith.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, we would have to look very

17     carefully at the retroactive --

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Of course.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- retroactive effect of abolishing a time-limit.  I

20     don't have that clearly on my mind at this moment.

21             So, Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Just to end the discussion regarding this topic, Mrs. Rehn.  You

24     were not aware at all, were you, of a specific dead-line other than

25     the -- of a new dead-line that was set as a result of this particular

Page 6679

 1     law, were you?

 2        A.   In my reports, I have several times referred to this 90 days

 3     dead-line.  So that has been quite obvious that is one of the matters I

 4     have been especially been criticising from for the Croatian authorities.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Were you aware at any time that the Croatian parliament

 6     passed a law terminating or eliminating that dead-line?

 7        A.   I can't -- I can't just recognise this.  But, of course, I got

 8     the response from the Croatian government, the paper we now -- the

 9     document we now are dealing with.  So then I knew or perhaps I knew

10     already earlier.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to page 10 of this same document,

13     please.

14        Q.   There was some document, both today and yesterday, on the amnesty

15     law.  And the first full paragraph discusses that:  "President Tudjman

16     pardoned by eliminating criminal charges against 455 persons of Serb

17     ethnicity detained during and immediately after Operation Storm.  These

18     were persons facing criminal charges before the military courts in

19     Zagreb, Split, and Karlovac for the criminal act of armed rebellion ..."

20             Does this clarify for you at all the issue of amnesty from

21     President Tudjman at least as from December 31st, 1995?

22        A.   It was certainly known by me then, but what was worrying me was,

23     of course, the reaction of the Serbs who wanted to return because it was

24     not clear for them:  Are they included or outside, what will happen to

25     them, do they have the chance of meeting charges when and if they return.

Page 6680

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Mr. Registrar, could you please call 3D00-1749

 2     to the screen.

 3             Your Honour, we have a partial draft translation of this

 4     document.  This will be part of our bar table submission when it's

 5     completely translated.  But for purposes of hopefully clarifying in the

 6     Court's mind this law on general amnesty and the description for what is

 7     and what is not amnestied, I would like to tender this document into

 8     evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. MISETIC:  If I may, I am sorry to rise to my feet, I believe

15     we tendered the law.  It's Exhibit D680.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  The same one, counsel?

17             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm sorry I missed that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there's no need, I take it, and that you

20     withdraw your --

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- request.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I would like to call up 3D00-1588.

25             Now, I think this document -- the whole of this document which is

Page 6681

 1     another response from the Croatian government or the text of this

 2     document is already in evidence.  What I noted was not in evidence were

 3     the last five pages of the -- this 3D document, which is the survey of

 4     criminal proceedings.

 5             And if I could ask, Mr. Registrar, to go to the

 6     fifth-from-the-last page.

 7        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, this was another document written via Dr. Granic in

 8     response to another report of yours, and this particular response is

 9     dated 14 March 1996.  And I would like to turn your attention to the

10     survey of criminal proceedings underway, which is a table listing

11     perpetrators of criminal acts or the kinds of criminal acts after

12     Operation Storm.  And it's further divided up on the following pages as

13     to where these actions are occurring, in addition to other statistical

14     data in response to your queries.

15             Do you recall receiving this survey at all?

16        A.   Oh, yes.  And I believe it's included in the documents we have

17     here.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Ms. Mahindaratne, I could not find it on e-court

19     or as appended to the original exhibit.  Was it appended to the original

20     exhibit, this survey?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  This is appended, yes, table 1 to the exhibit.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Then I will not offer it as a separate exhibit.

23     I just wanted to make sure.  At least from what I could find, I couldn't

24     find it appended to the exhibit, Your Honour.  I apologise for that

25     delay.

Page 6682

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You also said this is further elaborated in

 2     the pages to follow.  That's not something I found there.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Correct.  What I meant was the survey was an

 4     attachment to the report and the previous pages discussed the survey.  So

 5     it was my mistake.

 6        Q.   The survey discusses, does it not, the number -- and we had

 7     previously seen the number of 1.005 criminal proceedings listed on the

 8     bottom of that first page of the survey.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could scroll down, please.

11        Q.   Then it discusses what kind of criminal proceedings are being

12     pursued, at least on the page following as an example on the second page.

13             If we could go to the county court of Split, for example, which

14     is in Sector South, former Sector South, proceedings are underway against

15     28 persons as follows, and it discusses what they were charged with, the

16     offence of aggravated larceny.

17             Now, were you made aware at any time of the complete number of

18     persons who were prosecuted and/or convicted during this time-frame,

19     other than through these reports?

20        A.   I cannot remember this because, of course, this was one way of

21     answering the requests I have been doing and putting to the authorities,

22     and all these figures were most welcome and the clarifications were most

23     welcome to the office of the Special Rapporteur.  But what then has been

24     told later on is impossible for me to just remember here.

25        Q.   Understood.  And just for clarification, Mrs. Rehn, the other --

Page 6683

 1     for the benefit of the Chamber, the Sibenik, Zadar county courts were

 2     also courts which dealt with matters in former Sector South.  Were you

 3     aware of that at all?

 4        A.   I have this document.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P638, please.

 6        Q.   And that is your report dated 14 March of 1996, Mrs. Rehn.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'd be grateful if we could get a tab for her,

 8     counsel.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Tab 4.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, counsel.

11             THE WITNESS:  Sorry?

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Tab 4.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

14        Q.   If you could look, Mrs. Rehn, page 19, paragraph 73 of this

15     report, there is a discussion on that page about how many Serb refugees

16     have been approved, 2.100 out of 5.600 requests received.  And there was

17     an indication that considerably more Croatian Serbs would like to return

18     to Croatia.  It was -- was it your experience that even though the

19     approval process started out slowly, it gradually gained speed over the

20     course of your time as Special Rapporteur?

21        A.   It started, of course, immediately, but very slowly and very

22     much, of course, depending on the resistance from the villagers where --

23     to which it is returns will be directed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, just for the record, in order to

25     avoid whatever confusion, you referred to P638, but that same document

Page 6684

 1     has changed identity and is D669.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             If we could go, please, to P645.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's tab 13, Mrs. Rehn.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 7        Q.   I know that there was some concern you had, Mrs. Rehn, regarding

 8     evictions from military Ministry of Defence flats.  This particular

 9     portion of your report, if you look at paragraph 25, is the Croatian

10     government's response to the procedure involved.  And I'll wait until you

11     get there, if you let me know when you're there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, has there been any communication

13     between Prosecution and Defence about the relevance of the eviction of

14     military apartments?  Because I thought that this was not very much in

15     the core of -- is it of any relevance for the Prosecution's case?

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Not with regard to military apartments,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I was only trying to demonstrate another

20     aspect, but that will be argued later on.  We don't have to deal with

21     military apartments.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So whatever we think about that will not in any way

23     influence --

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Right.  So as long as I'm clear that the issue

Page 6685

 1     of military apartments and the evictions of people from military

 2     apartments and that methodology is not an issue in this trial, then I

 3     will not go over it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is not for demonstrative purposes you could do

 5     without, or you could --

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, it is true that in that report

 7     that there was a reference to violence.  And in the minutes, Mr. Jarnjak

 8     refers to the ability of the civilian police to deal with that issue as

 9     opposed to the military police, and that's what I tried to demonstrate.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's competence of the police, that's the only

11     relevant issue there, and not exactly what happened.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is correct, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, I leave it to you --

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  All right.  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether you feel any need to further explore the

16     eviction of military apartments.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, we may deal with that in a bar

18     table submission rather than waste time on that now.  I will move on.

19             I wanted to make the Court aware regarding the various laws and

20     the dead-lines which were admitted through Ambassador Galbraith:  D422

21     was the 90-day time-limit; D425 was the constitutional court making that

22     unconstitutional; and D424 was the law where the -- D425 and D422 were

23     the two exhibits, Your Honour, that dealt with that issue.

24             I will move to P640.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's tab 6, Mrs. Rehn.

Page 6686

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Page 15, paragraph 50.  Let me know, Mrs. Rehn, when you're

 3     there.

 4        A.   Yes, I'm here.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 50 notes that:  "According to the Croatian

 6     office for displaced persons and refugees, some 12.000 Serb refugees have

 7     received permission to return to the country as of 12 October 1996,

 8     mostly on the basis of family reunification or proof of citizenship."

 9             Now, that's, of course, a number that's from your previous report

10     gone up several thousand; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So the bureaucratic obstacles, although are -- which were still

13     perhaps in place were improving?

14        A.   Yes.  Of course, they were improving, and all the time I could

15     state that steps forward are taken.

16        Q.   Now, we've got additional information regarding -- I'll strike

17     that question.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we move to P651, please.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Tab 20.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   That's your final report of January 14, 1998 on paragraph 29,

22     which is page 9, and I appreciate your patience in struggling through the

23     documents, Mrs. Rehn.

24        A.   I have seen them before.

25        Q.   In your final report, you note on paragraph 29:  "After more than

Page 6687

 1     two years of observing human rights trends in Croatia, the Special

 2     Rapporteur is of the opinion that while more still needs to be

 3     accomplished, there are good reasons for optimism for the future."

 4             And then later on, in that same paragraph, you discuss

 5     statistical information received from the Government of Croatia that

 6     says:  " ... as of October 1997, a total of 5.580 criminal proceedings

 7     had been carried out in relation to the military operations carried out

 8     in the former Sectors North and South," and further discussions of at

 9     what stages those proceedings are.

10             Now, when you left or after you issued your final report,

11     Mrs. Rehn, was -- you still were dealing with Dr. Granic primarily from

12     the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; correct?

13        A.   When I left my mission as Special Rapporteur, of course, I was

14     totally concentrated on my new mission.  That was a much -- that was a

15     UN mission directly as the SIG chief or UNMIK in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16     But I was dealing with the leading team.  The international team from

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina was invited by President Tudjman then, Mr. Granic was

18     present in year 1998/1999 sometime, and so on.

19        Q.   Okay.  And President Tudjman was still president of Croatia at

20     that time, was he not?

21        A.   Yes.  Otherwise, he should not have been inviting us.

22        Q.   One final area I wanted to cover, Mrs. Rehn, relates to the issue

23     of --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I hope an area which will not take one or two

25     minutes.

Page 6688

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It will not, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I encouraged you 25 minutes, it's now 29.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             I'm just looking for my D document here, Your Honour.  3D00-1689.

 5        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, I know you had a question about the nature and extent

 6     of what people were being amnestied for.  This is the December 30th

 7     amnesty declaration of President Tudjman.  We have a partial draft

 8     translation.  It's 47 pages long.

 9             And you will see that the first gentleman is -- who was charged

10     with armed insurgency was noted to be exempt from criminal persecution;

11     and the same thing for the last particular person, Mr. Babic, also exempt

12     from criminal prosecution and the charge was armed insurgency.

13             So I don't know if that clears up your recollection or potential

14     confusion, but I wanted to make sure that you were aware on what those

15     charges were and how they were exempted.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would like to offer this into

17     evidence, and I will be done.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  Information taken.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask specific attention, I have not checked the

20     whole of the translation, but that someone is exempt from criminal

21     "persecution" comes as a surprise in a state document.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, it's probably supposed to be

23     "prosecution."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please have a proper look at the

25     language.

Page 6689

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I will tender it, and I will be completed.

 2             Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit number D693.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D693 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you for the extra time, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I am sorry for the housekeeping

11     matter.  We've been trying to find this issue Mr. Kuzmanovic raised about

12     and exhibit not being appended.  It was 3D00-1588, and I'm not sure if

13     that exhibit has been admitted into evidence by the Prosecution

14     because --

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  The chart is attached to the exhibit that was

16     tendered by the Prosecution.  It is at page -- well, I can't recall the

17     exact page, but --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that's the 33-page document?

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The chart and the explanation are found in the

21     later stages of this.  I think the chart is table 1 attached to it.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Can we have the exhibit number, though, for the

23     entire exhibit?

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  P600.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think it's table 1, and in the exhibit itself

Page 6690

 1     is the 26th page out of 31.

 2             Ms. Mahindaratne, do you have any further questions?

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you try to conclude within 13 minutes, so that

 5     the Chamber --

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- has an opportunity to ask additional questions as

 8     well --

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to the extent not already put to the witness.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call document number D669, please.

13                           Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

14        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, in fact, you have been questioned extensively about

15     the general amnesty.  If you want to follow the hard copy, it's at tab 4.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if I could ask, Mr. Registrar, to take us

17     to page 19.  So that we don't waste time, I'll quickly refer you to the

18     paragraph.

19        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, at paragraph 72, you report in the following matter:

20     "On 30 December 1995, the President of Croatia issued a decree granting

21     amnesty to 451 Krajina Serbs accused of 'armed rebellion' for their

22     alleged military support of the so-called 'Republic of Serb Krajina.'

23     This decision of the Croatian Government was noted with appreciation by

24     the Security Council in a statement by the President dated 8 January

25     1996.  Nevertheless, the Special Rapporteur is of the opinion that a

Page 6691

 1     general amnesty, which has not yet been decreed, is a condition sine qua

 2     non for the return of Croatian Serbs, who will otherwise fear prosecution

 3     for having served in the army of so-called 'Republic Serb Krajina.'"

 4             Now, if I could also take you, Mrs. Rehn, to page 26 at

 5     paragraph 109.  In your recommendations, you recommend as follows:  "In

 6     order to build confidence and provide security, the Croatian authorities

 7     should increase policing and humanitarian projects in the former Sectors.

 8     A general amnesty should be decreed for all former combatants of the

 9     so-called 'Republic of Serb Krajina,' and the return of Croatian Serb

10     refugees now in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and elsewhere should

11     be facilitated."

12             Now, whom did you intend and whom did the international community

13     intend to be the beneficiary of this general amnesty that you were

14     proposing?  And if you could be brief since I'm running out of time.

15        A.   Yes, I will be brief.  It's my interest to be brief.  It's my

16     clear opinion that we thought of the Serbs that have escaped for some or

17     another reason during the Operation Storm, and to make it possible not to

18     have an obstacle through this, to get general amnesty.  So it was

19     directed to the Serbs.  Of course, what has been raised about that law

20     must be the same to all nationalities is, of course, clear.  But for my

21     part, I was thinking of the Serbs.

22        Q.   And whatever group the persons, beneficiaries, belonged to, did

23     you intend the acts that amnesty would relate to be common crimes such as

24     theft or looting?  Is that what was intended, or did you intend it to be

25     prosecution for participation --

Page 6692

 1             MR. MISETIC:  That's leading, Your Honour, again.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, I'll leave it at this,

 4     Mr. President.  I've asked the question now.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  The question was already leading, so I'd ask that

 6     it be stricken or at least be reformulated.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me check.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I rephrase, Mr. President?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, one second, please.

10             Yes, please do so.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

12        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, did you understand this general amnesty to include

13     amnesty from prosecution of common crimes such as theft?

14        A.   It's very difficult for me to even --

15             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You object against the question on?

17             MR. MISETIC:  On what is she specifically referring to?  I mean,

18     now we need to know -- the law wasn't passed until August.  She's

19     crossing her with a document from March.  She's asking her opinion of a

20     law that wasn't passed until six months earlier.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that Ms. Mahindaratne

22     was asking not about a specific -- yes, now you're referring to the law.

23             Was what you had in mind as far as an amnesty was concerned, did

24     you have in mind that the aim should be to prevent prosecution of those

25     who had actively participated or were members of the armed forces, called

Page 6693

 1     often the rebellion forces; or that it should be wider to include not

 2     only this rebellion-type participating in the armed forces, but going

 3     beyond that, common crimes such as theft and others?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour, for making it clear for --

 5     the question quite clear for me.  With my democratic background, it would

 6     have been impossible for me to ask for amnesty for crimes, common crimes.

 7     It was a question just of those who were involved in the battles of -- in

 8     the Krajina.

 9             So my opinion, at least, is that we - and I especially - were

10     talking about excluding, of course, crimes from amnesty.  It was a

11     question of a war that took -- and fighting that took place, and that you

12     should not as a simple soldier be put into trial because of that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS:  So that --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So that having been a soldier in the --

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in the wrong army, in the rebellion army.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, in the wrong army or whatever army.  There are

19     many wrong armies.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Mr. Registrar, if I could quickly call document number P639.

22        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, that's at tab 5, your 7th November report.  If you

23     could look at paragraph 41, you were questioned about your report at

24     paragraph 4, and it says:  "However, the Special Rapporteur points out

25     that a couple thousand Croatian Serb refugees are already waiting in

Page 6694

 1     Hungary for return and are being prevented from doing so by various

 2     bureaucratic missions instituted by Croatian officials."

 3             Now, at the time you wrote this report, did you receive that

 4     information as if those persons were at that time waiting, or did you

 5     perceive that they had been there for some time?  What was the

 6     information?  Was it contemporaneous information, or was it -- did you

 7     relate it to a different time-frame?

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, it's leading and it's four different

 9     options to the witness on which option she wishes to take.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you mention all the options, then you're

11     still leading at what the options are, and at the same time the reason

12     why you should not lead the witness disappears at the same time.

13             Ms. Mahindaratne --

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, it was because I'm running out

15     of time, and I just wanted to narrow down the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  Well, the more options you give, the more

17     you run out of time.  Could you try to rephrase the question.  I mean, if

18     there's damage, it's done already.  We're not going to strike this from

19     the record.

20             To the extent you've understood the question by Ms. Mahindaratne,

21     could you give a brief answer?

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I got the information from several

23     sources of my staff and others that there are Serb refugees from Croatia

24     who are waiting, who are trying to get the permission to come back again,

25     and to claim for their property.  I can't say if they had been there from

Page 6695

 1     the whole -- the whole time or if there was something that had happened

 2     just now that they have gone over borders to Hungary and waited that way

 3     to come back to Croatia.  I'm sorry, I can't answer that.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 5        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, you took over as Special Rapporteur on 27th September

 6     1995; that's correct, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Now, you were questioned about the property laws.  On the same

 9     page, if you look at paragraph 38 and 39, you deal with property laws.

10     And in paragraph 39, you say:  "It remains unclear what the status of the

11     property is after the 90 days are over, even though it has been

12     stipulated that the ownership of unclaimed property will be dealt with by

13     a special law."

14             Did you ever understand as to what happened if an owner did not

15     return within the 90 days stipulated time and claimed that property, as

16     to what would happen to that property?

17        A.   That was what we were very much worried about what will happen to

18     it, because we knew that the Croatian authorities needed property, homes,

19     for those many hundred thousands of displaced and also refugees in

20     Croatia.  But, of course, for us it was important to know that people

21     could rely upon that they don't lose the right to their own property.  I

22     can't just answer this now more than this that it was what we were

23     worried about.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I have only one last question.

25        Q.   And what happened if the claimants or the owners returned within

Page 6696

 1     three months, did they -- as you know the law or as according to your

 2     information, were they given their property back immediately or was there

 3     some other condition which was required?

 4        A.   In principle, in theory, they should give -- get their property

 5     back.  But as I have been describing, there were cases that I witnessed

 6     myself that people have come back, they had the rights to the property,

 7     but somebody else was staying in their home, and they couldn't just get

 8     them out because they didn't have anywhere to go.  It was a complicated

 9     situation altogether.

10        Q.   And I read this last sentence to you.  You read:  "Furthermore,

11     even if the owner does return within the dead-line, his or her property

12     will not be restored until the Croatian citizen to whom the property has

13     been given receives another appropriate property for possession and use."

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  The witness gave her answer, she wasn't satisfied

17     with the answer, now we're reading from the report.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I have not heard the question Ms. Mahindaratne

19     wanted to put.  She said I'll read the last sentence to you, that's what

20     she did, and then I expect a question to follow.  But I do not know what

21     this question is about, whether the witness remembers ever to have read

22     this text before, or whether it was she who drafted it or one of her

23     staff.  I haven't heard a question yet.

24             What would your question be, Ms. Mahindaratne.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And that would be my last.

Page 6697

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You may understand that Mr. Misetic would strongly

 2     object against the question, Is this what your actual answer would be,

 3     because then it would not be leading but it would become a university

 4     example of leading.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President, I had a question, but

 6     Mr. Misetic did not give me the option.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please put your question which is expected not

 8     to be a leading question.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

10        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, and what was the basis for what you have reported

11     there about the property being restored to the owner if the Croatian

12     occupant was given another suitable property?  Now, what was the basis?

13     Was that included in the law or was it based on information that you --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you start leading, Ms. Mahindaratne.

15             THE WITNESS:  May I respond?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You were doing so well in just asking what's the

17     basis for that, and then you started to give a few propositions to the

18     witness, which Mr. Misetic wouldn't like.

19             MR. MISETIC:  I feel like a jack-in-the-box, Your Honour.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  But I must say that I have fallen out from

21     this too in the sense that this exact legislation and what will happen

22     then was not clear for me, and I counted on that in the moment the

23     apartment was released for the proper owner, they will get it.  But I'm

24     not sure that it happened every time.  But this is my answer on this, and

25     that's certainly not satisfactory.  But I don't want to make any kind of

Page 6698

 1     different statement.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That concludes re-examination, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Gwaunza has --

 6             Mr. Misetic.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Two short questions, and I will do it in less than

 8     a minute, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I think we now give priority to the Bench's

10     questions.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll see whether there's still time left.

13             Judge Gwaunza

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Yes, Mrs. Rehn, if I could take you back to your

16     report of 7 November 1995.

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Page 9, paragraph 25, specifically paragraph

19     25(c), where you stated that:  "On 12 August, it was reported that a

20     number of elderly persons were burnt to death in the village of Komic

21     [phoen]."

22             I just want to ask whether you had recall any more details about

23     this incident.

24        A.   Your Honour, I'm very sorry, but I can't recall more about this.

25     There were several, several brutal murders during that time of civilians,

Page 6699

 1     and we, of course, especially looked into them.  But I have mentioned,

 2     but nobody else is interested in that, the Grubori case several times.

 3     And that was something I was very much dealing with since I never got the

 4     proper answers.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Rehn, I can tell you that in this courtroom,

 6     the Grubori incident has received a lot of attention until now.  It

 7     just --

 8        A.   That makes me very pleased.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes, but it's fine.

10             Judge Gwaunza.

11             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Yeah.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we have no further questions and since

13     Mr. Misetic promised that he would need one minute for two questions.

14             Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  I appreciate it.

16                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

17        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, was it your intention in advocating for a general

18     amnesty law that the Government of Croatia in 1996 could charge Serbs

19     for, let's say, stealing a refrigerator or burning a house between 1991

20     and 1995?

21        A.   They will definitely not be able to charge, I think I already

22     answered that question, that my Nordic democracy is really not allowing

23     amnesty from criminal acts.

24        Q.   So the answer is your belief is that, yes, the Croatian

25     government could continue to prosecute Serbs for stealing a refrigerator,

Page 6700

 1     for example?

 2        A.   Mm-hmm.

 3        Q.   Is that a yes?

 4        A.   Yes.  I have answered that already once.

 5        Q.   Then the last question for you is:  Do you think that, if that

 6     were the case, that Serbs would have felt any material difference in

 7     their ability to return to Croatia and not face prosecutions from the

 8     Croatian government to put them in jail upon their return?

 9        A.   Yes, absolutely, because it was an important part of these.  But

10     what they were worried about was the list that was presented.  Because

11     when you are not on a list and you have been in the combat as an ordinary

12     combatant, then you can be worried about what will happen to you.  I

13     think we should forget about the civilian criminal acts.  We should just

14     concentrate on these that what happened during the Operation Storm and

15     the combats.

16        Q.   Well, we have a broader issues here to deal with.  So the

17     question is you've brought up the lists.  You do recall that the

18     international community, and the United Nations specifically, told the

19     Croatian government to put together a list of 25 Serbs who could be

20     prosecuted for war crimes, and that the rest of them were to consider

21     themselves to be immune from prosecution before Croatian courts; isn't

22     that correct?

23        A.   I'm talking for myself.  I think that we, again, must make a

24     clear the difference between the Special Rapporteur, her capacity, and

25     not representing the high-level international community, United Nations

Page 6701

 1     decisions and so on.  And I find this quite important, that we keep this

 2     in mind, because it's putting me as a witness in a quite awkward

 3     situation to answer questions for the United Nations and international

 4     community, when with the background, a Special Rapporteur must have for

 5     her work.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you used 300 per cent of your time.

 7             THE WITNESS:  And I took something of that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, Mr. Misetic did not ask one minute

 9     to put questions, put to hear the answers well.

10             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I don't have a question.  Just with

12     respect to this law on temporary taking -- the taking or use of property,

13     the law itself is D428.  It's in evidence, it's translated, it's in

14     English.  So if the Court can't for itself determine --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we'll not ask the witness to interpret

16     legal texts.

17             Mrs. Rehn, at least, yes, this concludes your testimony in this

18     court.  I'd like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague and

19     for having answered the many, many questions put to you by the parties

20     and not that many by the Bench.  I wish you a safe trip home again.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It has been a pleasure to

22     be working together with the four of you and the others.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mrs. Rehn out of

24     the courtroom

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 6702

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There is one tiny procedural issue which I would

 2     like to briefly raise.  For this afternoon -- for this Friday afternoon,

 3     a hearing has been scheduled, and, apparently, for practical purposes the

 4     registry has inquired into whether the accused wanted to be present or

 5     not.  This was not initiated by the Chamber because the Chamber considers

 6     a hearing under Rule 54 bis the same hearing, unless specific requests

 7     are made by the state too.  We have considered this hearing as just an

 8     ordinary hearing.

 9             Meanwhile, the Chamber is informed of the accused to waive their

10     right to be present, which I understand prefer not to be present, and one

11     accused has chosen to be present.  I just put this on the record that

12     inquiring into the matter which the Chamber might not have spontaneously

13     done, but I do understand that there might be practical reasons for that,

14     might create a situation in which one of the accused would say, "Well, I

15     wasn't aware that the other would come," whatever it is.  You can

16     consider or reconsider, and I'm not encouraging you to do so.  But if you

17     want to reconsider your choice to be present or not to be present, please

18     let the registry know as soon as possible in view of the practical

19     implications.  May I take it that certainly not later than by today this

20     is done.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn and we'll adjourn tomorrow, the 17th

23     of July, at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.  And we'll be,

24     Mr. Registrar, in Courtroom II where we will hear the testimony through

25     videolink.  We have the reasons for the decision on the videolink

Page 6703

 1     requested for Witness 172 ready.  But since I do understand that for all

 2     kind of practical purposes we'll not hear that evidence anyhow, this

 3     Friday, we'll not further burden the interpreters and transcribers at

 4     this moment, but the reasons are ready.

 5             We stand adjourned until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

 8                           July, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.