Page 6811
1 Monday, 21 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 If there are no procedural issues to deal with, I would like to
12 ask the Prosecution whether it's ready to call its next witness.
13 Mr. Waespi.
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. Good morning, Your Honours.
15 The Prosecution calls Mr. Alun Roberts.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Roberts
17 into the courtroom.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Roberts.
20 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
22 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
23 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 Madam Usher now hands out to you the solemn declaration. May I invite
25 you to make that solemn declaration.
Page 6812
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Roberts.
4 Mr. Roberts, you'll first be examined by Mr. Waespi, who is
5 counsel for the Prosecution.
6 Mr. Waespi, please proceed.
7 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 WITNESS: ALUN ROBERTS
9 Examination by Mr. Waespi:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Roberts.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record.
13 A. My full name is Alun Richard Roberts.
14 Q. And please observe a pause between my questions and your answers,
15 and you can look at the cursor that is moving in front of you on the
16 screen and when it stops moving it's safe for you to start answering.
17 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if the witness could be given copies
18 of his six witness statements.
19 Q. Mr. Roberts, do you recall giving six witness statements to
20 the ICTY?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 MR. WAESPI: And, Mr. President, Your Honours, these six witness
23 statements have the following 65 ter numbers: The first one dates
24 27th August 1997
25 65 ter number 4811; the third statement, 28th February 2007, 65 ter
Page 6813
1 number 4812; fourth statement, 7th February 2008, 65 ter number 4813;
2 fifth statement, 4th March 2008
3 statement, 2nd July -- in fact, it's dated 2nd July, but it was taken on
4 the 30th June and 1st of July, 2008, 65 ter number 5321.
5 Q. Mr. Roberts, did you have a chance to review these six statements
6 before coming to court today?
7 A. Yes, I have reviewed them. Thank you.
8 Q. And do these statements accurately reflect your declarations on
9 the matters covered?
10 A. They reflect what I said at the time of making those statements,
11 yes.
12 Q. And do those statements accurately reflect what you would say if
13 examined today on these matters here in court?
14 A. Yes, they do.
15 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if these six statements could be
16 tendered as exhibits.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You've forgotten one question, Mr. Waespi. The
18 witness said: It reflects what I said. I would give the same answers,
19 but whether they are truthful answers is not yet covered by your two
20 questions.
21 MR. WAESPI:
22 Q. And do these statements -- would these statements, are they
23 truthful answers to what you were asked?
24 A. Thank you. I made them truthfully, and I declare that I still
25 consider them to be made truthfully. Thank you.
Page 6814
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would not expect otherwise, but this is the
2 series of questions and as covered now. If they were all lies, of
3 course, that's not what I suggest in any way, then it would have been
4 lies and it still be lies, which, of course, is not the purpose of this
5 exercise.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 If these six statements could be tendered into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Misetic, from your latest submission, I saw that, at least,
11 there are no objections against admission of the 92 ter statements?
12 MR. MISETIC: That is correct, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. MISETIC: The only issue that I noted this morning, which I'm
15 not sure if it's a mistake or not, but on the 5th, 6th, 7th February,
16 2008, there's a current occupation listed, and I wasn't sure if that was
17 accurate or not. Perhaps Mr. Waespi can take a look. If it is, that's
18 fine. I just thought for the purposes of clarity.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Madam Registrar, we'll go through them one by one.
21 Witness statement 27th of August, 1997, would be ... ?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P675.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P675 is admitted into evidence.
24 Next one would be witness statement 31st of July, 1998 ... ?
25 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P676.
Page 6815
1 JUDGE ORIE: P676 is admitted into evidence.
2 The third one is witness statement 28th of February, 2007.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P677.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P677 is admitted into evidence.
5 The supplementary witness statement dated the 7th of February,
6 2008 ... ?
7 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P678.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P678 is admitted into evidence.
9 Next one 4 March 2008
10 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P679.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P679 is admitted into evidence.
12 And, finally, the further supplementary witness statement dated
13 the 2nd of July, 2008 ... ?
14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P680, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE:
16 Mr. Waespi.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 There are a number of exhibits that I'd like to tender. Given
19 the objections by the Cermak Defence of three exhibits and by the
20 Gotovina Defence of six exhibits, I suggest that during the course of my
21 examination-in-chief, I'll be pulling up these six exhibits and lay a
22 foundation with the witness and then we can argue of its admissibility.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Now, before putting something to the witness, I think there's
25 also request to have them -- some of these documents to be added to the
Page 6816
1 65 ter list.
2 Is there any objection against that as such, so apart from -- of
3 course, you might say that if they can't be admitted, what's the use of
4 putting them only the 65 ter list? But would that not be over
5 formalistic?
6 MR. MISETIC: No. That wasn't what I was going to say, Your
7 Honour. I think, in our filing yesterday, we indicated that there are
8 several that are duplicates. So I'm not sure if the Prosecution had a
9 chance to review it and wishes to retender them or not. But other than
10 that, no, Your Honour, we have no objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we proceed as follows.
12 Mr. Waespi, have you looked at possible duplicates?
13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, it's correct. The Cermak Defence and also the
14 Gotovina Defence discovered that. Those 65 ter exhibits were already on
15 our original list, and they don't need to be applied for again.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then if they're already on your list, no duplicates
17 as far as documents sought to be admitted are concerned?
18 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that we proceed that we first
20 hear the questions Mr. Waespi will put to the witness; that we'll finally
21 deal with admission; and at once not to split them out, now deal with
22 half of them and then the others ones. But those who were not contested
23 there, we work on a basis of the assumption that they will be admitted
24 into evidence.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
Page 6817
1 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Mr. Roberts, can you very briefly give a summary of your
3 professional background and experience prior to your assignment in the
4 United Nations force in the Krajina. I see from your February 2008
5 statement, which is now P678, that you were in South Africa. That's at
6 page 2, paragraph 5. Can you briefly, very, very briefly, summarize your
7 experience.
8 A. I was not so much in South Africa. I was working in my former
9 profession as a journalist for two agencies, and I was covering the war
10 in northern Namibia
11 forces, and the war in southern Angola. And I worked for a correspondent
12 for a news agency called the Namibian, based in Windhoek, the capital of
13 Namibian, as well as research for the UK Manchester-based TV station,
14 KRNA Television, for its world and action programme on a documentary
15 about the war in southern Angola
16 between 1985 and 1989, and it gave me an opportunity to see the grim
17 realities of war first-hand as a correspondent, including a range of
18 activities between military and civilian locations. I think that sums
19 that up a little bit.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
21 Now, did you also work for the ICC, International Criminal Court,
22 here in The Hague
23 A. Yes, I have. I had a post as a senior public information officer
24 from about the 2nd of August, last year, to the end of last year prior to
25 them assigning a full-time spokesperson. And my assignment was on policy
Page 6818
1 making regarding the responsibilities and conduct of court officials in
2 regard to talking to the media, public speaking engagements, and those
3 kind of policy directives.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts. Let's turn to the events you came to
5 testify about, and we'll start with the events in Knin.
6 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if we could go and pull up witness
7 statement 31st July 1998
8 in B/C/S, it's page 5 in the middle. If the English version -- yes.
9 Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Q. I'll read out a few lines from the middle of the English version
11 where it starts: "From those observations ..."
12 That's the third paragraph.
13 "From those observations, I estimate that about 200 civilian
14 locations were hit during the shelling ..."
15 And that, of course, refers to the events in Knin on the 4th and
16 5th of August, 1995.
17 "This would include roofs of apartment buildings and houses that
18 were hit or suffered damage from shrapnel, from the shelling, shattered
19 windows, et cetera.
20 "That the shelling affected the whole length of Knin, I observed
21 four separate civilian buildings at either end of the town and in the
22 middle of the town (on which a large amount of shelling was concentrated)
23 as a further indication that the shelling was not just concentrated on
24 military and official building locations of the 'RSK' authorities."
25 And then you go on to describe at least four civilian locations.
Page 6819
1 MR. WAESPI: If 65 ter number 5330, this is a map, could be
2 pulled up, please.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Roberts, the first four locations marked with H, L, K --
4 H, I, K, and L, are these those four civilian buildings you observed
5 being shelled?
6 A. Just let me take a really good look to be really sure the map
7 coincides with everything, but could you just put the picture as it is on
8 the screen so I can see the actual list of -- right. Yes. Those are the
9 four locations that I observed that I said in that statement, for me,
10 depict the shelling affected was the word I used, "affected," the entire
11 town of Knin H, I, L -- H, I, K, and L.
12 Q. And where were you when you made these observations?
13 A. I was in my UN public information white UN vehicle. I had seen
14 these amongst other locations in patrols since we were able to have
15 freedom of movement in the centre of Knin. And I made these sightings in
16 regard to different locations in Knin, probably towards about the 17th or
17 the latter part of August, as being just representing a focus of the
18 happenings of the shelling and the bombardment that took place on the
19 4th and the 5th of August.
20 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if this photo could be tendered,
21 please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
23 Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P681.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P681 is admitted into evidence.
Page 6820
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 If we could move on to the next 65 ter, that's just the following
4 number, 5331, please.
5 Q. And while that's being done, can you tell the Trial Chamber where
6 you were during the shelling on the 4th, on the 5th? It's contained in
7 the various witness statements, just very, very briefly.
8 A. On the 4th of August, when the first bombardment of Knin
9 commenced at about 5.00, I was in my apartment accommodation on the top
10 floor of a building just off from the centre of Knin. Most of the detail
11 of what happened is explained in my statement.
12 I left there after being assisted by a UN armoured patrol
13 carrier. At about 8.40, we were taken by Canadian peacekeepers in the
14 APC to other parts of Knin up and along towards the police station and
15 the former so-called RSK military barracks to pick up other people on the
16 main road. We then collected them and returned back down the main road
17 past the centre of town along to the Krka river and into the UN Sector
18 South compound. I was there for some days and nights following.
19 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Roberts. I think that suffices for the
20 moment because we are focusing on the shelling of Knin.
21 Now, on this map -- or rather, photo, we see A, accommodation.
22 Is that your accommodation as you had described just a moment ago?
23 A. Yes, that is. That white speck building on the corner of the
24 road there, that was my accommodation in Knin at the time of the
25 shelling.
Page 6821
1 Q. And the other locations depicted here in the map and explained in
2 the legends, what do these mean?
3 A. Let's take those slowly one by one.
4 The capital B with the line running across the photo there is an
5 apartment block building that was directly visible in front of my top
6 floor balcony of my accommodation. The top parapet of that building I
7 saw damaged when I could get up to the balcony after the main bulk of
8 shelling had subsided. After about one and a quarter hours, I saw that
9 it had an impact.
10 B1 denotes the body of a man I saw lying on the sidewalk. C is
11 the building to the right of the road running directly opposite from my
12 balcony. It was a house more than an apartment block, as I think can be
13 seen from the photo, and I saw smoke rising from the far right-hand
14 corner of that building.
15 D is a building which I could see from the front edge looking to
16 the right of my balcony, but I would ask the Court to remember there is a
17 considerable elevation that goes up from my building and from the railway
18 line and the main road in Knin going up towards the fortress. So I
19 couldn't see completely clearly the roof-top depicted on the image
20 there, D. But when looking carefully at maps and sketches of maps, that
21 is the building where I saw smoke rising from the top far side of the
22 roof.
23 Going to E, now in my statement of 1998, I describe how I was
24 lying in the centre part of the accommodation building on the second
25 floor with the family I was staying with and that I heard shells going
Page 6822
1 over the top of our building at a kind of slight angle. Obviously, then,
2 I couldn't see them, but they appeared to be going to the back and up.
3 And this is only my assessment of where those shells might have fallen,
4 but I've labelled it as E.
5 Now, F is the body of a woman. It's on the street to my right,
6 which I could see from the corner of the balcony, who was lying face
7 down. G is something on this symbol as labelled third body; but in my
8 statement, it's at the end of the street, beyond the house which is
9 labelled C that I saw having damage. And I could not be sure at all
10 because of the distance - it's about 80 metres, a bit more perhaps - if
11 this was a body or not. So I have not in my actual statement said it
12 was. It could have been but I wasn't sure because of that distance
13 balcony top of the building.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts. Just to make it clear, at what time, on
15 which date did you observe those points you just made?
16 A. It would be the morning of the 4th of August after I had got up
17 on the balcony to make some assessments. It was after the shelling had
18 died down at about half past 6.00 onwards. I can't be precisely sure,
19 but it was a little bit after the main bulk of shelling had subsided.
20 It was not, by the way, for the Court just one visit to the top
21 of the balcony to look. I made several visits in the course of maybe
22 half an hour or 45 minutes where I could make observations, detect maybe
23 a little bit about the rate of impact of shelling coming in, which had
24 subsided at that time, after about an hour and a quarter.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
Page 6823
1 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if this photo could be tendered,
2 please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P682.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P682 is admitted into evidence.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 If P -- if 65 ter number 5329 could be brought up. This is a
10 larger collection of photographs, and I would like to see first page 3
11 and then page 5.
12 Q. Mr. Roberts, can you tell us what is depicted here?
13 A. It would be useful to have a map to help the Court perhaps, but I
14 can describe it quite well. I think it's also on a map we might see
15 later. If you go up from the main street just after the so-called RSK
16 government buildings, you climb a very steep elevation, and you're going
17 up the road away from the centre of town opposite what was the so-called
18 super-market at that time. And you go up steeply, and you reach some
19 concrete steps on the road that goes around to the right, but you climb
20 upwards directly. You come to a dirt road at that time, and you turn to
21 your left. As you're going left you on both sides have civilian
22 buildings, bungalows most of them.
23 And this building here, if you're walking along - if I can help
24 the Court to imagine - if you're walking along from the top of those
25 steps, you've gone about a hundred metres, maybe less. You can see two
Page 6824
1 buildings on the dirt road. The balcony on the left-hand side is the
2 edge of one building. You can see an impact in the roof of that
3 building, which I felt was accommodation building, top roof was hit. And
4 I made the observation that this was some distance away from the centre
5 of town; and as I reflected elsewhere in the statements, I felt it to be
6 beyond what I would observe to be legitimate military objects. It's the
7 top end of town away from the centre up the elevation climbing towards
8 civilian houses.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts. We'll show you a map in a moment. Let's
10 go to the next photo --
11 MR. WAESPI: And, Mr. President, I'd like to tender all these 31
12 photos that are part of this 65 ter number 5329 at the end of having
13 discussed two examples, if that's fine.
14 Q. Mr. Roberts --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know whether there will be any objections,
16 because then you might choose --
17 MR. MISETIC: I do have a -- I don't think it's been disclosed,
18 the foundation for the pictures in particular at the time they were
19 taken. I notice the lack of leaves on the trees, so if we could have
20 some foundation as to when the pictures were taken.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi, if you could please deal with that
22 for the whole series of photographs.
23 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I will certainly do that.
24 Q. Now, these photographs, who took these photographs, Mr. Roberts?
25 A. I took these photographs, and I think it's a fair question. They
Page 6825
1 were taken later on. I took some photographs in late August/early
2 September. These were taken -- these particular photographs we're
3 looking at now were taken probably towards the late part of
4 September/early October maybe.
5 This particular building is on the same dirt road. If you
6 recalled the building we just saw a moment ago, it's about 30 metres to
7 the left of that building. This building is just down from the dirt
8 road; and if you went beyond that roof and turn right a little bit, you
9 come to the steps, concrete steps, that go down to the street and then
10 down the street into the centre of town. It was a civilian
11 accommodation.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
13 MR. WAESPI: And for everybody's benefit, the witness explained
14 the date these pictures were taken and the locations in his witness
15 statement, the last one, which is now P680, on the last page.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Does that sufficiently deal with the foundation
17 matter?
18 MR. MISETIC: Actually, if I could have a moment, Your Honour.
19 Is there a paragraph number, Counsel, that you could give me?
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, 32. It starts in the second-to-the-last page
21 and finishes discussing each of the photographs on the last page of P680.
22 MR. MISETIC: So the location -- I'm sorry to ask these
23 questions. But in light of the fact that we've had the map -- the first
24 map admitted into evidence as to where the witness says he saw damage to
25 civilian buildings, is this -- are these now different locations; and if
Page 6826
1 so, are these pictures of buildings below the Knin castle?
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, this is correct. I wanted to use a map once
3 these photos are dealt with, go back to map P681. We can do that, and
4 the witness can indicate, as he suggested, where these photographs were
5 taken.
6 But if the Defence is satisfied, if these photos can be moved
7 into evidence. We can also go back to the map right now, Mr. President,
8 if you want me to.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Still the -- we are talking about the
10 photographs dealt with in paragraph 32?
11 MR. WAESPI: This is correct of the last witness statement dated
12 30 June -- 31st July 2008
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, let me just see. One second, please.
14 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt you, bit I also
15 note that the -- it says the date the photos are taken is 18 August 1995,
16 which would seem to be --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm struggling a bit also with the dates
18 because the witness said, "We're looking at these pictures of these two
19 buildings," and you said, "These photographs, who took them?" And the
20 witness said, "I took some in late August/early September." And then ...
21 Yes, Mr. Waespi, about the dates, I do not see any photograph on
22 this list. I see one from mid-October, that's the cemetery, which
23 apparently is not the one we have on our screen. And all the others are
24 either August or early September.
25 Now, I'm not familiar with the seasons there. Would that have
Page 6827
1 been early September?
2 MR. WAESPI: I can ask the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. WAESPI:
5 Q. Mr. Roberts, in your witness statement, you say that, in
6 paragraph 32, that it was taken around the 18th August 1995. Do you want
7 to qualify this answer?
8 A. Yes, I can do. I mean, I was taking photographs from quite
9 shortly after Operation Storm, and I took a good many -- I had taken
10 photographs in that same dirt road about that time. These may be, on
11 reflection, been taken -- these specific ones may have been taken in the
12 later part of September, but they clearly were buildings I observed. And
13 whether the photographs on that dirt road were taken in August, maybe
14 that's part of the confusion. But --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not very familiar with how leaves look at the
16 end of September in Knin, but I'm -- to say the least, I'm a bit
17 surprised by it.
18 Mr. Roberts, we see some vegetation which has a look. And if we
19 go through the series, then I think it's always one photograph followed
20 by a number page. If we then, in this series, would go to the second
21 photograph, we've seen that.
22 THE WITNESS: Two and three, I think, Your Honour, on the --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Two and three appears -- at least in many
24 countries in the world, this looks like late autumn, not one single leaf
25 left on the trees. And in the back, we see some green, but I can't
Page 6828
1 identify whether that is leaf trees or needle trees.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, certainly they were taken by me, and the date
3 could be something towards the end of September. But I don't know how it
4 could be taken much into October because I was transferred from Knin
5 around the middle of October, so I don't think I would concur that they
6 were taken somehow in the -- in the early/mid/deep winter. They were
7 taken certainly no later than the end of September.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's, of course, a conclusion saying,
9 Since I wasn't there anymore, the photographs couldn't be from that date,
10 or these are different photographs, or -- I mean, you are at this moment
11 in the process of drawing conclusions rather than to identify --
12 THE WITNESS: I did take these photographs.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You did take them?
14 THE WITNESS: I did take these photographs, and the description
15 I've given is accurate, and the latest date I could have taken them would
16 be towards the end of September.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You did not return after that date to the place?
18 THE WITNESS: I returned, yes, but not to this place to take
19 photographs.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to tender these
22 30 documents -- photographs.
23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, with the position that we believe that
24 this is beyond October --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, that's also --
Page 6829
1 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, that's fine.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- to some extent speculation. So if -- well, I
3 wouldn't say --
4 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... all right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- wild speculation, Mr. Misetic, but at least it's
6 also based on assumptions which have not yet been verified.
7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, this document which is a series of,
9 I think, 31 photographs --
10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- and 62 pages of photographs separated by numbers
12 coming after the photograph would be number ... ?
13 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit Number P683, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P683 is admitted into evidence.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. WAESPI:
17 Q. Now, Mr. Roberts, if we can go back to the map P681, and I'd like
18 to ask you to mark on this map, if you can, the location of these two
19 houses you just described a moment ago, if Madam Usher could assist you
20 in doing that.
21 A. How do you move the cursor? I'm sorry.
22 Q. Yes. You have to be a little bit patient. Madam Usher is coming
23 to help you.
24 A. Oh, okay.
25 Q. If you can please mark those two houses we've seen on those two
Page 6830
1 photographs. If you recall the first one, that should be the first one,
2 and you would attach once you have found it a number 1 next to it.
3 A. They're on the dirt road --
4 Q. Would it assist if the image would be --
5 A. Yes, please.
6 Q. -- larger, zoomed in.
7 A. The buildings are quite -- the buildings are quite close together
8 where the letter K is on that.
9 Q. I think you can also describe it using K -- in fact, the circle
10 that depicts the location of K as your reference point.
11 A. Just to be clear, I think it's not easy from this map in the way
12 that the circle around K is drawn. This is the edge of the dirt road
13 that runs along the top, and it's a very, very small road and it's not
14 picked out clearly on this whole diagram or sketch map. But the two
15 buildings were close together around whereabout the circle marked K is.
16 That is the area of those two buildings.
17 Q. Very well. I don't think you need to mark it then.
18 MR. WAESPI: And I don't think we need a new exhibit. We just
19 leave it as P681.
20 Q. Now if we can continue, all these locations, were these civilian
21 locations or what you perceived at that time as military facilities, if
22 you know?
23 A. I consider these to be civilian locations, civilian
24 accommodation.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts. Let's move on to -- away from the
Page 6831
1 shelling and to other observations you made. In your witness statement,
2 the second one, 31st of July, 1998, which is now P676, you made the
3 following observation. And I quote from page 1, paragraph 3; in B/C/S,
4 it's also the first page.
5 "During the course of the 'Operation Storm' attack on Knin, my
6 job was to represent the United Nations observations of what we, the HQ
7 Sector South UN personnel, saw taking place. And to continue doing that
8 over the weeks that followed were a consistent pattern of orchestrated
9 arson, systematic looting, on what I would describe as a mass scale, and
10 many incidents of deliberate killing and murder took place. The latter
11 on many occasions from the bodies I observed personally, sometimes within
12 hours of the incidents, were elderly people, all of which were dressed in
13 civilian clothes."
14 Now, on what basis did you make this comment in your witness
15 statement?
16 A. I made that statement from my presence in Knin on the 4th of
17 August of what I observed then, but especially in regard to my own
18 personal presence with members of the United Nations Human Rights Action
19 Teams visiting many villages and hamlets in the outlying areas around
20 Knin, as well as a wider area of the former Sector South as we began to
21 get greater and better freedom of movement. I also, as the public
22 information officer, was privileged to have all of the reports in my
23 office from the four UN battalions, KenBat, CanBat, CzechBat, and JorBat
24 information officers in the sector; all of the daily situation reports of
25 the United Nations military observers; the daily sitreps of the
Page 6832
1 UN civilian police; the Human Rights Action Team reports; the military
2 information officer's reports; as well as the reports of the humanitarian
3 and political affairs officers who were, all of them, at various points
4 out in the field on a regular, daily basis from after the 8th of August.
5 I referred to those reports as well as what I also saw personally in
6 making that description here in the 1998 statement.
7 MR. WAESPI: Let's move to 65 ter 5324, which is a PIO report of
8 12th October 1995
9 Q. Mr. Roberts, do you recognise this document; and if so, what is
10 it?
11 A. Yes, I recognise this document. This is a document that I
12 prepared myself on -- dated 12th of August, but I prepared it maybe a
13 week or ten days before. And what it is intended to do is to bring
14 together in one place, for us as a public information department and my
15 colleagues in the mission headquarters in Zagreb, a representation of
16 what is contained or what was contained in the various UN reports of
17 UNMOs, UN Human Rights Action Teams, UNCIVPOL, and others, of where
18 they'd seen really and seen personally and where they said, We saw, I
19 saw, acts of serious human rights violations conducted by members of the
20 Croatian army or people in military uniform which the UN personnel
21 concluded were Croatian army soldiers or personnel.
22 And the whole report is a selection. There were more, but I
23 thought were representative of the descriptions and the work done
24 especially by UNCIVPOL. And just briefly, I chose UNCIVPOL because their
25 reports were quite descriptive with a grid reference and also because
Page 6833
1 maybe I was completely wrong but I felt that it was possible maybe some
2 part of UNCIVPOL might continue after the finalisation of the UNCRO
3 mandate, which did not happen. But I relied upon their reports
4 especially. And in their reports, as well as the UN action teams, the
5 latter part of that report includes summaries of interviews mostly by
6 UNCIVPOL with civilians who said to UN people what they had seen and saw,
7 and then showed UNCIVPOL and UN human rights personnel various evidence
8 of serious or violent human rights situations that we thought credible.
9 Each one of the references in the report, I have sourced with the
10 particular UNCIVPOL or UN Human Rights Action Team or UN UNMO report from
11 which I looked and read the information before setting down the various
12 paragraphs representing what the UN have seen in that document.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts. Let's turn to page 2, and we see here
14 quite a number of international journalists. I'd like to ask you first:
15 Have you seen -- have you worked with at that time in the Knin area with
16 all these journalists that are listed here?
17 A. This is a selection of the many international and regional press
18 who came through our press office to either use the equipment, computers,
19 sometimes to type stories, to request assistance in meeting UN personnel
20 who might give them information, and sometimes request assistance of
21 perhaps accompanying UN personnel on their trips into the field,
22 especially UN Human Rights Action Team and UNMOs and CIVPOL.
23 I met with almost all these people, they passed our office, they
24 are amongst -- they are a selection of many more international and local
25 press.
Page 6834
1 Q. I'm interested in two names. The first one is Robert Fisk, he's
2 listed here under Independent newspaper UK, 3 September; and Christiane
3 Amanpour, CNN, 2nd October.
4 In relation to Mr. Fisk, when do you recall having met with him,
5 if you have, indeed, met with him?
6 A. Robert Fisk came several times to report on the situation in
7 Sector South and Croatia
8 but he'd come back and was there from about eight to ten days from just
9 before, I think, the 3rd of September. And he went out into the villages
10 around Knin and produced, I think, three or four reports for the
11 Independent, which is a newspaper based in London, UK
12 Ms. Amanpour had also been in Sector South previously. Like
13 Robert Fisk, she was covering the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina especially,
14 but she made several trips into Croatia
15 there is the date that she was in our office.
16 But these dates on the right are just the date that I put down
17 that they were in the office. They were coming and going quite
18 frequently. Some of them -- others made maybe just one visit on the way
19 through.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
21 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if this document could be exhibited.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
23 Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P684.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P684 is admitted into evidence.
Page 6835
1 MR. WAESPI: Now, Mr. President, I would like to play a tape
2 which is a news report by Christiane Amanpour for CNN.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's a video, may I take it?
4 MR. WAESPI: Yes. It's a four-minute video which has a
5 transcript. It was given to, I think, the interpreters, and I believe
6 Mr. Kay has an objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay.
8 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. It's a broad-ranging objection in
9 relation to this particular piece of evidence as well as the Fisk
10 articles. These are, of course, reports by other people, not this
11 witness. This witness may have known the people, he may have known that
12 they were in the area at the time. But the observations and report are
13 particular and peculiar to those journalists who are the ones writing the
14 material or, in this case, producing the news report.
15 I cannot understand the admissibility of material such as that
16 because one can easily see that a witness such as this or any other
17 witness could then be used as a vehicle to bring through whatever
18 newspaper reports containing the observations and thoughts of other
19 journalists to suit whatever purposes a particularly -- particular party
20 has within these proceedings.
21 In my submission, the evidence the Court must receive is this
22 witness's own observations, what he saw, what he heard, and keep it to
23 that. To produce materials from people who are in some way connected to
24 him and then put them into evidence, in my submission, doesn't provide
25 this Court with a satisfactory means of receipt of evidence.
Page 6836
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I believe, first of all,
3 these documents and videos have a value of their own as a piece of
4 notice, general notice, that was aired or published. We could actually
5 submit them from the bar table, but the witness himself, as is reflected
6 in his witness statements, had contacts with these two journalists. He
7 met with Mr. Fisk. He actually accompanied him to one of the tours in
8 Kistanje and Djevrska, and you'll see that when we pull up the article.
9 So he adds, clearly, a foundation to these articles because he was there
10 and he talked to the journalist.
11 In relation to the CNN clip, Mr. Roberts even features in the CNN
12 clip. He was interviewed by Christiane Amanpour, so we believe that
13 there is enough foundation to tender these media articles with
14 Mr. Roberts.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, the objection is denied. As Mr. Waespi
17 rightly pointed out, if the witness was involved in one way or the other
18 in the production or was present during the production, he can say
19 something about it, which does not mean that everything that is said and
20 is photographed or is described is necessarily the ultimate truth. But
21 under the circumstances, as presented by Mr. Waespi, there -- the general
22 objection as phrased by you is denied. But, of course, we'll first now
23 have a look at the material, and then finally decide on admission.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
25 MR. WAESPI: [Microphone not activated]
Page 6837
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. WAESPI: If 65 ter number 5333 video could be played, and it
3 lasts approximately four minutes.
4 [Videotape played]
5 Unknown present: "The three sides in the Bosnian conflict have
6 been accused of committing atrocities, all of them at one time. Today,
7 the Croats have been singled out for mistreating the Serbs in the
8 Krajina. The UN high commissioner for human rights has written Croatia
9 President Tudjman, accusing his forces of continued killing in Krajina.
10 CNN's Christiane Amanpour has an example.
11 Christiane Amanpour: "UN soldiers show journalists what they
12 found in the tiny village of Varivode
13 Unknown soldier: "We got blood-stains on the floor, we got two
14 entries wounds from rifle bullets or pistol in there, and then another
15 set of stains over the corner here.
16 Christiane Amanpour: "UN soldiers say an elderly Serb couple
17 lived here. The man was sick in bed-ridden. Below their picture hanging
18 on the bedroom wall, we found a dog crouching in the corner as if in
19 mourning. The soldiers believe the owners of this house were executed.
20 Unknown soldier: "It's obvious that it wasn't shot from the
21 entrance but from here. The bullet-holes like this [indiscernible].
22 Christiane Amanpour: "We saw the same pattern in several nearby
23 homes, blood-stains on the ground, a cane lying nearby, a bullet-hole in
24 the wall, abandoned farm animals. 74-year-old Milan Pocrajec, a Serb, is
25 the only one left in this village. He says he heard the shooting, but he
Page 6838
1 didn't see anything and now he's terrified.
2 Milan
3 Christiane Amanpour: "If they come and want to kill me, I can't
4 do anything, he says. I can't go anywhere. The UN believes 12 Serb
5 civilians were massacred in Varivode, among them Jovo and Milka Beric.
6 According to identity papers they found, their bodies have been buried
7 along with more than 200 others who were killed during and after the
8 Croatian army retook the Krajina from the Serbs in August. One hundred
9 twenty-five of these graves are unmarked. At first, Croatian authorities
10 denied the reports attributing them to biassed propaganda. Later, they
11 blamed 'uncontrollable elements' and now they say they've arrested
12 several hundred people. The UN says what's happening here is a
13 systematic campaign of intimidation. Varivode is only the latest
14 destroyed village. UN television has taken pictures of Serb houses
15 burning all over this region in the two months since the Croatian army
16 conquered it. UN cameras found two elderly Serb men, one dressed in
17 pajamas shot through shot through the head, the other with his throat
18 slit. European, UN, and US human rights reports say much of the killing,
19 burning, and looting is done by men in Croatian military uniforms and
20 armed civilians. The US
21 John Shattuck: " ... of these abuses need not have occurred on
22 this scale if the Croatian government had taken measures to prevent
23 them ...
24 Christiane Amanpour: "Officially, Croatia says, Serbs who have
25 lived in the Krajina region for hundreds of years can stay, but the
Page 6839
1 signals say others.
2 Alun Roberts: "We're seeing repeated signs of burning, looting,
3 and killing of the remaining civilians. There is no sign of any
4 encouragement for those people to stay or for those who may have left to
5 come back in any way at all.
6 Christiane Amanpour: "And as UN soldiers leave, they promise to
7 come back and see Milan
8 Christiane Amanpour: "If you you find me alive, he says, if you
9 find me alive.
10 Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Varivode, Croatia
11 MR. WAESPI: I would like this tender this video-clip,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Any further observations, apart from the ones raised
14 by Mr. Kay?
15 Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P685.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P685 would then include the video and the
18 transcript. P685 is admitted into evidence.
19 You may proceed, Mr. Waespi.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Let me go back to the two articles by Mr. Fisk. The first one is
22 65 ter number 963.
23 Q. Now, the article, Mr. Roberts, talks about in the first paragraph
24 visits by Mr. Fisk to Kistanje and Djevrska. Did you accompany Mr. Fisk
25 to these locations?
Page 6840
1 A. On that occasion, yes, I was with Robert Fisk when he made that
2 report in Kistanje and Djevrska.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. WAESPI: I would like to tender this article, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, other than the one further raised by
6 Mr. Kay?
7 If not, Madam Registrar, this would be number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P686, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P686 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. WAESPI: And the next potential exhibit is 65 ter 5334.
11 Q. Mr. Roberts, that's an article dated 14th September 1995, again
12 by Mr. Fisk. And it features in the filled of the first page a
13 Lieutenant Simon Coley, and also at another location an Irish UN
14 investigator, just in the paragraph below, Bridin O'Rourke.
15 Are you familiar with these two persons, Mr. Coley and
16 Bridin O'Rourke?
17 A. Yes, I am. Mr. O'Rourke worked in the CIVPOL HQ office in Sector
18 South Knin, and Lieutenant Coley was an UNMO attached to UN military
19 observers in Sector South.
20 Q. And do you know how Mr. Fisk got in touch with these two UN
21 persons?
22 A. As I recall, what I would not all the time do, but have the
23 possibility to do, would be to have journalists go in the field with some
24 of our UN Human Rights Action Teams where I would not be present. On
25 this occasion, I recall that Mr. Fisk was there during this visit doing
Page 6841
1 his reports, and they were going out in the field, Lieutenant Coley and
2 CIVPOL lady, and O'Rourke. I inquired from them, Could a journalist go
3 with them. Fisk was interested, and he went with them on that occasion.
4 I did not accompany them.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts?
6 MR. WAESPI: I would like to tender this document, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
8 MR. MISETIC: I am told that neither this document or the CNN
9 video-clip are on the 65 ter, nor has an application been made to add
10 them to the 65 ter list.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I'm sorry. I omitted that. I would like to
13 add those to the 65 ter list. We received these documents only -- I
14 believe we received the CNN clip from Mr. Roberts when he visited us I
15 think about three weeks ago, and the article by Mr. Fisk, the second one,
16 we pulled out of the system around the same time.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, there's no date I can see on this
18 article either. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
20 MR. WAESPI: I think it's 14th September 1995, the second
21 article. The first one I believe was the 4th September 1995.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what you believe is, of course, good to
23 know, but not the ultimate.
24 Yes, September 14th, 1995, apparently that's, at least, what
25 seems to be the --
Page 6842
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If you can see, Your Honour, on the bottom of
2 the first page of this document, it appears to have been printed on July
3 10th, 2008. So, at least, it's been in someone's possession since that
4 time.
5 MR. WAESPI: Yes. That's what I just mentioned.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you said, that you then received it from
7 the witness?
8 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Because the witness showed us that document
9 dated 12th October 1995, which is P684, which features on page 2 of
10 Mr. Fisk; and after that, we tried to find the articles Mr. Fisk wrote at
11 that time and presented it to Mr. Roberts.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, the other potential problem I have
13 with this is that how do we cross-examine? I mean, there is no notation
14 in this article that Mr. Roberts was interviewed or quoted. I mean, how
15 do we cross-examine someone on an article in which they weren't quoted.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
17 MR. WAESPI: Well, again, as Your Honour has said a moment ago,
18 the witness facilitated the visit of the gentleman. Obviously, the
19 journalist made his own observations. He's a reputable journalist. The
20 document speaks for itself.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's exactly the problem Mr. Misetic and now
22 apparently Mr. Kuzmanovic are raising. If written statements, articles
23 speak for themselves, what's the use of asking questions about it, isn't
24 it? What questions would you ask about this in examination-in-chief?
25 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, we had so many documents that were
Page 6843
1 authored by another person than the witness who tendered these documents.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. WAESPI: And that's always the problem with these documents
4 if the author is different from the witness. That's as far as it goes.
5 Of course, it goes to the value attached to a document like that, if the
6 author can be cross-examined. Of course, nobody prevents the Defence
7 from calling Mr. Fisk, and we would certainly not be opposed to that.
8 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I may. This now opens the door to
9 everybody going to Lexus Nexus, finding all the newspaper articles they
10 want, and tendering them into evidence as evidence, and then telling the
11 other side, Go call the journalist to cross-examine them. I mean, at
12 some point, there has to be a line drawn.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, I can't say that I've never
14 seen a document coming from the Defence in a similar way.
15 MR. MISETIC: Only if the -- I mean, as far as I can recall --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. MISETIC: -- if the witness is quoted in the article, then
18 putting it to him to say, Did you say this on the day in question --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have seen other examples as well.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I totally understand and I do agree
21 with you, but I think you have to realize that we got a CD of some
22 800-some documents produced in our lockers. I don't know. I haven't
23 looked at every single page and I can't tell you if this was included in
24 that. But this is the first I've seen of this particular article. I
25 understand Your Honour's position, that confronting people with articles
Page 6844
1 or giving them articles in direct with which we had perhaps previous
2 contact with and had a chance to prepare is one thing.
3 But the difficulty with this particular witness is there's so
4 much information, and every week we get a new statement or new
5 supplemental information sheet or information that wants to be added to
6 the 65 ter which obviously hasn't been added. I understand Mr. Waespi
7 has this witness and there's a lot of information and documentation. But
8 for us to effectively cross this person, you know, there has to be sort
9 of an end as to when we get the documents, and it hasn't happened here.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, it appears to me, but please correct me
11 when I understand the Defence wrongly, that this witness has drafted a
12 list of some 20 journalists he has met at the time, facilitated, could
13 use the computer, sometimes were accompanied and sometimes were not
14 accompanied.
15 Now, it seems of some concern to the Defence that if you would
16 admit into evidence every single written report about what these
17 journalists apparently have seen without supporting pictures or without
18 any additional information about who accompanied him, we've seen
19 Mr. Roberts featuring on one of the clips. So, at least, he could tell
20 us whether he was there; and whether this was the journalist who made it
21 and whether the environment in which he was videoed, whether that was
22 authentic or not.
23 I mean, he can say a bit more, but this would open a way to every
24 written report about the events by any of these witness -- by these
25 journalists, just on the basis that they'd visited the offices, to be
Page 6845
1 admitted into evidence.
2 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, these are just two examples,
3 including the CNN three examples, of what the witness described a regular
4 occurrence, that international journalists would come. It serves as an
5 example as a corroboration of what the witness told us, especially in
6 P684, and these are one- and two-page articles. Obviously, if the
7 Defence cannot cross the author, that goes to the value of these
8 documents.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I don't know if the Independent was
11 translated into Croatia
12 going down this route, he has to present it in a proper and effective
13 way. I was trying to alert the Court at the start to what I could see as
14 a bridgehead approach by the Prosecution in relation to this kind of
15 material, and it's become more and more transparent to me that that is
16 what is going on here.
17 Looking at the Amanpour clip, it looked to me as though that was
18 several different places edited together. I'm not sure it is of just the
19 one place, and I'm not sure how the Court will be helped by edited
20 information as well as the views of journalists coming into this Tribunal
21 in that way. There must be some connection with the accused or with the
22 witness himself, rather than the views and observations of other parties.
23 That's our concern at the bar here.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 6846
1 JUDGE ORIE: Whether or not to admit the Roberts/Fisk report will
2 be decided after the break by the Chamber.
3 But, Madam Registrar, could you perhaps already mark it for
4 identification.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P687, marked
6 for identification.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
8 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Just before I forget and I wanted to put it on the record with
10 respect to the Amanpour clip in light of the conversation we had earlier,
11 when she was standing in the cemetery, the trees were full of leaves. So
12 I wanted to note that for the record in light of our discussion, and that
13 clip had to be at least the 2nd of October.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That says something about the seasons, you would
17 say, yes.
18 Mr. Waespi, perhaps you could also over the break look again not
19 only at the second and the third in this series of photographs but also
20 to the fourth, where you see something which some people would -- no, let
21 me not comment on it. The witness said the second and the third might be
22 problematic. If you could please have a close look at fourth as well.
23 Please, proceed.
24 MR. WAESPI: Let's continue -- unless, Mr. President, I'm moving
25 on to a different subject. That's a lists of human rights violations
Page 6847
1 which I probably cannot deal in the next three minutes but I'm in your
2 hands.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what you cannot. Could you tell us in
4 how much time you could.
5 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps in -- well, maybe I'll try in five minutes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes. Then we'll finish that and then we'll
7 then take a break until 11.00.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 If 65 ter 5326 could be brought up, please.
11 Q. While that's being done, do you remember Judith Jakob?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And who was she?
14 A. Judy Jacob was my press and public information assistant in the
15 press and public information office in Sector South headquarters in Knin,
16 and she had arrived in Sector South headquarters a few months before I
17 did.
18 Q. Can you please have a look at the cover page of this list, and
19 once you have familiarized yourself, we can move on to the section page,
20 which is the first page of the actual list.
21 MR. WAESPI: And for Your Honours' benefit, this is an almost
22 identical copy the actual list of P421 that was admitted after some
23 debate with Mr. Kehoe with Witness Marti. And do you recall that
24 Mr. Marti said that two of the columns were cut off.
25 If we could move to the second page of this document, please, and
Page 6848
1 if that could not be broadcast, please.
2 Q. Can you tell us what this list is, Mr. Roberts?
3 A. Yes, I can. There are, in fact, two lists which are identical.
4 One is dated the 29th of November, as I recall, and one is not dated.
5 The undated one, as I recall, is the official one that we circulated to
6 certain members of mission headquarters in Zagreb, as well as the heads
7 of some of the Sector South departments. What this report is, as our
8 public information office would do on some occasions - I think the Court
9 is familiar but I will just make sure - that in the course of a UN
10 mission anywhere in the world, the different departments, such as was in
11 Sector South, the UN military observers, the UNCIVPOL, UN human rights
12 action teams, sector commander's office, all the departments would file
13 at the end of each day a situation report or a daily sitrep.
14 In the course of the weeks that followed, from the 4th of August
15 on through towards the end of the UNCRO mission in November, that pattern
16 continued. The press office was, therefore, receiving all of these
17 reports, and our observation was that there was nowhere in Sector South,
18 nor as far as we knew, at mission headquarters Zagreb that had brought
19 together a comprehensive document to list as best we could all of the
20 reporting of the different UN sitreps and daily reports, to have them in
21 a chronological order based upon the sightings and the reports made by UN
22 personnel.
23 And therefore, we decided with the consent of the UN departments
24 in Sector South to be the office that would put this together. So we did
25 this from the 4th of August onwards to the middle of November, and we
Page 6849
1 finished this up in the mission headquarters in Zagreb, as I recall, in
2 early January.
3 The role of Judith Jacob was largely to bring together all of
4 these different reports. We would discuss them when I came in from field
5 trips in the evening, and gradually we built-up this ledger of tables and
6 information that was inserted. And we tried to be as thorough as
7 possible based upon the content of information provided in these UN
8 reports, which she and I would go to the personnel concerned and ask them
9 to on occasion to verify or be clear on information that they had written
10 in their report.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
12 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if this list could be tendered, under
13 seal, because it contains a few names of witnesses.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if just for the record we could get
16 the foundation as to where the document actually came from. I mean, to
17 the Office of the Prosecutor, I mean.
18 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
19 MR. MISETIC: Because --
20 MR. WAESPI: -- this specific document was given to us by
21 Mr. Roberts. That's the first time we've seen the complete list with
22 those two columns at the far right.
23 MR. MISETIC: If you could inquire as to where he got it from. I
24 think there's a little bit of background there, just as the foundation
25 for the document.
Page 6850
1 MR. WAESPI: I believe the witness just testified that he
2 compiled the document with Ms. Jacobs together, but we can clarify that
3 with Mr. Roberts.
4 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I don't mind. The document was compiled by
6 Ms. Jacob and myself with the cooperation of the various members of the
7 other UN units. I was advised that one of your earlier witnesses,
8 Mr. Marti, had said, apparently, that he had received this document from
9 Ms. Judith Jacob, and I was contacted then to ask about this document. I
10 found the original of it, which is the undated document, and delivered
11 this to the investigators of ICTY.
12 MR. MISETIC: It was my understanding based on communication with
13 the Prosecution that Ms. Jacobs is actually the one who's providing this
14 document, but I'm not sure.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: I can go back to my e-mail which I sent a memo to
17 everybody, and I'm quite confident we did not receive the list from
18 Ms. Jacobs, but for the first time from Mr. Roberts. But I'll verify
19 that over the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You are referring at this moment to an e-mail which
21 was copied to the Chamber, dated the 23rd of June of this year, three
22 minutes past 7.00 in the afternoon. Is that correct, Mr. Waespi?
23 MR. WAESPI: Yes. And I have it in front of me right now, and in
24 it, Mrs. Jacobs says at page 2, the top, that she did not have a copy of
25 the list anymore. So that confirms that she didn't give us the list
Page 6851
1 herself.
2 MR. MISETIC: Very well. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P688.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P688, in the absence of objections, is admitted into
6 evidence.
7 We'll have a break now, Mr. Roberts, until 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, when we were discussing P688 and
11 when it was admitted into evidence, I have failed to mention that it was
12 admitted under seal.
13 Then as far as P687 is concerned, that is the newspaper article
14 of a -- apparently dating from the 14th of September. The Chamber has
15 decided not to admit that in evidence, so the status changes from MFI
16 into NA, which stands for not admitted. The Chamber has considered that
17 in more than one respect the document does not meet the criteria for
18 being admitted at this moment.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 If we could go back, as suggested by you, Mr. President, to P683,
22 which is the series of 30 photographs, and I'm interested in page 7.
23 Q. Mr. Roberts, did you take this photograph?
24 A. I recall I did, yes.
25 Q. And what does it depict?
Page 6852
1 A. It was one of many photographs. It wasn't taken specifically to
2 show what's in the picture, but it depicts general decay and looting in
3 the streets towards the upper part of town in Knin.
4 Q. What's very particular I think about this photo is the very white
5 foreground. Do you have an explanation for that as the photographer?
6 A. Yeah, I see it also. I don't have any specific information to
7 that. I know I took the photograph.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt Mr. Waespi.
9 Are you telling us this depicts looting? Is that what I heard? I
10 just --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's -- I think the testimony is
12 such, unless there's any translation issues, seems to be clear. Whether
13 it's for you very convincing, Mr. Kuzmanovic, you can, of course, tell
14 the Chamber at a later stage.
15 But before we start talking about the white, Mr. Roberts, is this
16 snow?
17 THE WITNESS: I would not like to go and say clearly or not.
18 What I can say is I most certainly took this photograph. The selection
19 of it for the purposes of suggesting looting is not my decision, but I
20 submitted this photograph with many others, and I think it's before the
21 Court, for what it's worth, to show what is in front of the photograph.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, the first thing and the reason
23 why I ask specific attention is that if it would be late September, then
24 it would have been in -- if this is snow and if this would have been late
25 September, it would have been in early winter, isn't it?
Page 6853
1 THE WITNESS: I follow you, yes. I can't give any more
2 information than that. I don't recall taking the photograph in
3 side-streets in Knin in the middle of the winter. I can't recall that.
4 I can recall taking this photograph, but not that far into a season of
5 winter.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, of course, it's part of a series. If it
7 would not have been, I would have invited you to reconsider the probative
8 value and the relevance of this photograph. Now, to take it out of a
9 series, I mean, if you would -- I leave it in your hands at this moment.
10 MR. WAESPI: Thank you --
11 JUDGE ORIE: But it raises more questions than it answers
12 apparently.
13 MR. WAESPI: I'm not a photographer, not even an amateur one. I
14 was wondering whether the flash-light could have been the reason for
15 that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I, of course, had similar considerations, but
17 then, of course, further down on some of the branches, you find tiny
18 little parcels of flash-light. I can't exclude anything, but --
19 MR. WAESPI: We'll do away with this photograph, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.
22 Let's move to the second list, and, Mr. President, this list did
23 not appear on the 65 ter -- on our current 65 ter list. So we need to
24 apply, and there was also some objections from both Defence teams. So I
25 would like to first lay a foundation with this witness, and this is
Page 6854
1 ter 3150.
2 Q. Mr. Roberts, do you recognise this list?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And what is it?
5 A. This is a list that I was given by a UN military observer, and I
6 understand, at the time it was given to me, I did not know who was the
7 producer of the document. The information it contained is a summary, as
8 far as I could tell at the time and now, of UN reports from different
9 departments, which on the far right columns of the article you're looking
10 at, source of information says the source of information. It doesn't
11 give specific dates of the sitreps, but I understand it was actually
12 prepared by Ms. Peggy Hicks, who was a colleague. She was one of the
13 United Nations human rights officers based at mission headquarters in
14 Zagreb
15 Q. And did you use this list in your daily activities?
16 A. I referred to this list in the course of compiling the 12th of
17 October report that I put together myself, but only in terms of just
18 looking at the descriptions and the dates as the way that various
19 happenings, various incidents unfolded in Sector South around Knin from
20 the 4th of August onwards. There was another report which covered also
21 Sector North, and I used this in giving a guidance to my obtaining and
22 checking the information in my 12th of October report of the specific
23 situation reports of UNCIVPOL and UNMOs which are sourced in the 12th of
24 October document.
25 MR. WAESPI: Based on the witness's answer, Mr. President, I'd
Page 6855
1 like to make an oral application to add it to the 65 ter list and to have
2 it tendered.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Two requests. First, adding to the 65 ter list.
4 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, my assistant here tells me that it's
5 already on the 65 ter list, and it's 65 ter 3150. With respect to the
6 second request as to admissibility, we do have an objection. First of
7 all, on two grounds, first, that it's simply a commentary on evidence
8 that's already been admitted because it's a compilation or an analysis of
9 that evidence, and we believe the Trial Chamber is better suited to draw
10 its own conclusions.
11 Second, if I could go into private session for one moment, Your
12 Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before we do so.
14 Mr. Waespi, you even introduced the document as 65 ter 3150.
15 That I find that on line -- page 42, line 9. So, therefore, to have it
16 added or did you provisionally assign a 65 ter number?
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. WAESPI: The way I understand it, that's always a technical
20 issue to have it uploaded, so it's everybody -- it's available to
21 everybody. But that doesn't mean that it's formally on the 65 ter list.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This means that it's your position that it was
23 not yet on a 65 ter list which was filed at the time, and I see some body
24 language on the other side. But whatever it was, either it was or
25 there's no objection against adding it.
Page 6856
1 MR. MISETIC: Well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, it is now on the 65 ter list.
3 But now objection against admission.
4 MR. MISETIC: If I could go into private session for one moment,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We turn into private session.
7 [Private session]
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 6857
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 6857-6858 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 6859
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, had we assigned already a number to
5 this document? Let me just check.
6 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet. Could you please assign a number to it.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that would be P689.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P689 is admitted into evidence.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 In the remaining time, I'd like to cover two more subjects. The
13 first one is Grubori. If the 65 ter number 4817, a sketch, could be
14 pulled up, please.
15 Q. Mr. Roberts, do you recognise this sketch?
16 A. Yes, I recognise the sketch, yes.
17 Q. And who prepared it?
18 A. I drew this sketch.
19 Q. Can you fairly briefly, because it's all contained in your
20 various witness statements and specifically in a report you made which is
21 still 65 ter number 5322, can you tell us how come you prepared this
22 sketch.
23 A. This sketch concerns two dates that UN Human Rights Action Team
24 and other personnel went to the Plavno valley north of Knin. The first
25 visit was 24th of August, and we'd gone - if you look at the bottom
Page 6860
1 centre of the diagram, it's the little road coming slightly to the right
2 of centre, it comes from Knin - we'd come that direction, and we'd gone
3 up the road on the left there to the village that's in the top left-hand
4 corner.
5 On the 24th, we had met villagers and they had told us of various
6 incidents of intimidation. They were quite afraid. One building had
7 been burned in that village, and the UN civil affairs and humanitarian
8 officers suggested that to try and take their concerns into
9 consideration, we would come back tomorrow, the next day, with members of
10 the UN -- the Croatian police from Knin to discuss issues such as
11 security, issuing of ID cards, other matters of concern that they
12 expressed to the UN on the 24th.
13 We went back down the road, and we went into Knin, and, as is in
14 my statement, we met briefly at the police station, advised them of the
15 request of the villagers who we'd told the police would come with us on
16 the next day. On the next day, we went to the village again. In my
17 statement, as far as I can recall, we did not go past the Knin police
18 station, but we went directly a bit in advance of the time of that
19 meeting to that village.
20 On the way there, on the road going to the village, you will see
21 these little square boxes on the right-hand side. These were some about
22 10 to 12 -- 10 to 11
23 vans. And we were somewhat struck, the UN party - which is quite a large
24 one - about these vehicles. They were completely idle and no personnel
25 around, and UN TV crew was with us. They filmed them. I believe you may
Page 6861
1 have that already. I don't know.
2 I took some sketches of the vehicles, and then proceeded up
3 towards the village because we thought they might be to do with the
4 policija from Knin coming to the village. We went to the village top
5 left again, and were told, no, they hadn't come. In the course of that
6 meeting, we observed from that village, across the valley top right, a
7 village that was burning. That is called Grubori, and it's marked top
8 right of that diagram. And the rest is really the roads that we went
9 down past the school community centre and up towards the winding road
10 that goes towards Grubori.
11 I'll leave it there because I think most of the information is in
12 my statement of 1997, specifically my report on the Grubori incident of
13 the 29th of August, which is several pages long, and is there for the
14 Court to consider as to the full account of what I and my colleagues
15 observed first hand in Grubori.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
17 MR. WAESPI: If this sketch could be admitted, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Since I hear of no objections, Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit P690.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P690 is admitted into evidence.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. WAESPI: If we could pull up ter 5322.
23 Q. Mr. Roberts, is this the report you just referred to a moment
24 ago?
25 A. Yes. That's my report on the happenings and observations of the
Page 6862
1 UN personnel who went across the Plavno valley to Grubori village on the
2 25th of August; and in that document, I describe all the events we
3 observed on those days, on the day of the actual incident and the days
4 following.
5 MR. WAESPI: Let me go to page 7, paragraph 27, of this report;
6 and in B/C/S, it's page 9, paragraph 27.
7 The last part of paragraph 27, last five, six lines, read as
8 follows. It starts: "Assessments by UN Sector South, UNCRO, UNHCR, and
9 ECMM that such ongoing incidents, the lack of Croatian police patrols,
10 resources, and investigations, are that they suggest an unchecked pattern
11 that was more toward ethnic cleansing than loose criminal elements and
12 isolated incidents, while balanced reporting by the media is hard to find
13 anywhere in the mainstream Croatian press."
14 Can you tell us the Court why you say that?
15 A. Yes, I can. As the press and public information officer at
16 Sector South headquarters, I was able to receive reports, not only just
17 the main UN Sector South headquarters, but also the specialised agencies
18 such as UNHCR, which is a UN specialised agency as you know, but also the
19 reports of ECMM monitors that were largely military personnel serving in
20 the European Community Monitoring Mission.
21 And upon reading those in the days after the 4th of August, I can
22 say that every single report from the four principal UN departments, as
23 well as UNHCR, as well as the ECMM, were documenting their own
24 observations of arson in villages, violent acts against what were mainly
25 elderly remaining civilians, and regular observations of what they would
Page 6863
1 describe as men in military uniform or Croatian military officers or
2 special units of Croatia
3 were either on fire, had been burned, or accounts of villagers
4 interviewed. And this is why I say in this paragraph, not that it was in
5 my words "ethnic cleansing," but was an unchecked pattern that continued
6 that was more towards ethnic cleansing than loose criminal elements and
7 isolated incidents.
8 Now, that was what I was reading as reactions by Croatian
9 officials and reported in the Croatian mainstream press which we were
10 monitoring from our press office and was also monitored by our main UN
11 public affairs office in Zagreb
12 without some degree of checking with my headquarters in Zagreb
13 wanted this report to be, not the most thorough, but as closely to the
14 observations of my colleagues at Grubori, but up to that time of what we
15 observed and I felt were made as genuine reports by the UN officials as
16 well as agencies like UNHCR and ECMM.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
18 MR. WAESPI: I would like to tender this document, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P691.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P691 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I used my two hours allotted to this
23 witness. I need another maybe ten, 15 minutes, if I'm allowed to do
24 that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll ask Madam Registrar how many minutes you
Page 6864
1 exactly used and then please proceed; and if you're well beyond your one
2 and a half hours, then I'll warn you.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 If 65 ter 4816 could be brought up, please.
6 Q. Do you recognise this list, Mr. Roberts?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And what is it?
9 A. This is a list that was made, I won't say in a hurried fashion,
10 but was very spontaneous. Because we were puzzled, myself and my UN
11 colleagues, on the way to the village opposite Grubori on the morning of
12 the 25th of August at the sighting of these rather, for us, unusual sight
13 of vehicles parked on the right-hand side of the lane leading towards the
14 village we were going to, after we had come back from the burning ruins
15 of Grubori, I went to check myself with the party vehicles that contained
16 my colleagues. We decided to go to the office of General Cermak to
17 report what we had seen as quickly as possible, and I wanted just to make
18 sure that those vehicles were there or gone.
19 I had recorded on another list, which I could not find, all ten
20 or 11 vehicles on the way to the village we were going to in the morning
21 early. But this is the vehicles that I observed and recorded were still
22 there at the time we returned from Grubori to go to Knin to report what
23 we had seen. It's a very quick note, but it's what I took at the time.
24 And I also have said, I think, in a statement that I believe my
25 colleague -- I believe my colleague from UNHCR, Benny Otim, also took
Page 6865
1 this information on a similar list of the number plates and tablet plates
2 of those vehicles.
3 The sighting itself was quite unusual. They were unmarked, there
4 was no people nearby, it was an open valley, they were quite new
5 vehicles, they looked official. But to me they did not look as if they
6 were Croatian policija vehicles because we were familiar with what they
7 looked like. They looked, as I have said in my report I think, to
8 suggest - and this is in my 1997 statement I think and also my report of
9 29th August 1995
10 vehicles. They were too many to be to be just ordinary normal Croatian
11 policija vehicles. They suggested that type of thing, but that's what I
12 put in my report as my own conclusion.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
14 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if we could have an exhibit number,
15 please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P692.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P692 is admitted into evidence.
19 Mr. Waespi, you used approximately one hour, 45 minutes, so if
20 you could please conclude in the next three to four minutes.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Brief interruption.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It may be obvious, but if we could just get a
Page 6866
1 date for that document I would appreciate it. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, could you accommodate?
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Roberts, do you remember when you made this note?
5 A. Yeah, I compiled this note I think the same evening, if not the
6 next day, but I made the actual note at the time, and this I think is the
7 note I took on the 25th of August itself of writing things down. It's
8 clearly a handwritten, hurried note, of the date that is on the top
9 there: Plavno, 25 August 1995
10 day. I would have remembered the note. I think it is that date or of
11 the evening, but that's the actual list compiled from that sighting late
12 morning, 25th of August.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. If I used only -- or if I
15 used --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. You said two hours, or you had
17 scheduled two hours.
18 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That was one and a half on my mind, so, therefore,
20 I'm not encouraging you to use any more time than you indicated earlier,
21 but my limitation was unfair.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. The last photo I'd like to show you in connection to Grubori is
25 65 ter 4823. Mr. Roberts, can you tell us what -- who the photographer
Page 6867
1 is who took the photograph.
2 A. I took this photograph. It was the late afternoon of 25 August.
3 We went back to Grubori, having been in Knin, and reported this
4 development at the office of General Cermak. And this is one of the
5 villagers, Jovo Grubor, who is showing us the location where in the
6 afternoon period while we were in Knin, he had found the body of one of
7 his neighbours in the hedge. And my description of that body and what
8 happened is in my report. Without taking up further time of the Court
9 here, I think that's in the 25 August report of all those photograph I
10 took and what they depict in my opinion.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
12 MR. WAESPI: If I could tender this photo, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
14 Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit P693.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Could you invite the witness to be a bit more precise on the
18 time-line that day, at what time approximately he observed initially what
19 he said he observed, then how much time it took him to get back to Knin,
20 and then to get back to Grubori again.
21 Please proceed. Would you please explain this to us,
22 Mr. Roberts?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, certainly, Your Honour.
24 We had gone from the village across from Grubori and reached
25 Grubori about mid-morning, late morning on the 25th. The party of UN
Page 6868
1 officials that were there with myself were UN TV, UNHCR, EJ Flynn from
2 human rights office, about five or six officials including UNCIVPOL and
3 UNMOs. And we spent about, in my opinion, not more than maybe 40 minutes
4 in the village. UN TV filmed. There was a commentary shock on the state
5 of the women and Jovo who came back with us. He was in the meeting
6 across the valley we had been to early in the morning. And we decided
7 then the most important thing to do because of what we had encountered,
8 village houses on fire, barns on fire, cattle, an animal was shot dead,
9 the villagers reporting that some of the relatives were inside houses
10 that were on fire. Clearly, what had happened had obviously for us
11 happened very, very recently, the same hour or two before.
12 We decided to go back to the office of General Cermak and report
13 what we had seen immediately because we felt this warranted a police
14 investigation or security to be provided, and so we went back into Knin
15 which took about 45, 50 minutes. We could not find General Cermak at the
16 office. We spoke to what I think was his -- one of his main assistants,
17 I think Major or General Dondo. My colleagues were Maria Teresa Mauro
18 from UN civil affairs, EJ Flynn, and I think Benny Otim was there from
19 UNHCR.
20 We made it clear to Mr. Dondo what we had seen, where, what we
21 felt was going on, urged an immediate investigation be launched, and the
22 presence of personnel deployed to protect the villagers, not only there
23 but in Plavno valley as we had heard in other incidents like that from
24 other villagers in the morning.
25 We then went back at about 5.00 or so to headquarters Sector
Page 6869
1 South. We tabled very brief, informal initial reports to our respective
2 offices in Zagreb
3 elsewhere in the UN chain. Then I had in my office a Dutch TV crew walk
4 in by chance. They were being -- doing some filming elsewhere in the
5 area. And we decided we would go back, those of us who had been there in
6 the morning, to Grubori because we felt the place was very unsecure. We
7 wanted to see if there had been a deployment of Croatian policija to
8 provide security. We went back, we took the Dutch TV crew with us. My
9 colleagues from UN TV decided to stakeout, is the term journalistically,
10 and await the office of General Cermak, to see if they could get an
11 interview with him.
12 We proceeded back to Grubori through Plavno valley, the same
13 route, arriving late afternoon/early evening, and this is when I took
14 most of the photographs of the persons we found had been killed. We were
15 taken to various locations by the villagers, who were by then all
16 assembled, only six remaining, which is I think five women and Jovo here
17 in the photograph. And we were taken to locations where I photographed
18 various people who had been killed in my observations. They had been
19 shot at close range. Bullet cases were found in one room of an elderly
20 man. He was elderly, he'd been in bed. And other women were --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now you're describing -- I was mainly focusing --
22 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
24 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Let's finish up with one subject, and this is 65 ter 2840, a
Page 6870
1 letter from General Janvier to General Cervenko of 12 December 1995.
2 Q. It relates to an issue that you were the -- at the centre of it.
3 MR. WAESPI: If we could go to the next page, if there is one.
4 Yes.
5 Q. Let me read the first one, the third paragraph.
6 "Dear General.
7 "I have been informed by the commander of Sector South,
8 Brigadier-General Forand, that during a visit he paid to General Cermak
9 in Knin on 5 September 1995
10 accused Mr. Roberts, press and information officer of the Sector, of
11 being involved in spying activities which ultimately may justify his
12 execution."
13 And I'll go on: "You will agree with me that such statements are
14 rude, offending, and unacceptable, especially if expressed by a
15 high-ranking General Officer of the HV.
16 "Moreover, they certainly do not contribute to establishing a
17 very much needed climate of cooperation and confidence at a time where
18 reports on looting, burning, and other human rights violations continue
19 to reach me and the Commander of Sector South.
20 "I would very much appreciate it if you could inform me about
21 whatever measures you deem necessary to avoid further blatant allegations
22 against a member of the UN in Sector South whose commitment remains
23 highly valued by the Sector Commander."
24 Now, were you spying, Mr. Roberts?
25 A. Well, I don't even know these days where that question comes
Page 6871
1 from, but I was a professional public information officer of UN Sector
2 South.
3 Q. Do you know what the reason was that General Gotovina used these
4 words or acted the way he did?
5 A. Well, I think --
6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I think the question calls for
7 speculation. The person wasn't even at the meeting, so I don't know if
8 he can even accurately -- he's basically asking him to speculate.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it calls for speculation depends on what he
10 knows.
11 But, Mr. Waespi, you certainly have an expectation, I take it,
12 that if we start digging into the psychology of Mr. Gotovina at the time,
13 then it might not greatly assist us. But if the witness has any specific
14 knowledge which could give a reasonable explanation for why he was
15 perceived as being a spy, then, of course, the witness could tell us.
16 Please proceed.
17 THE WITNESS: If you're asking me to comment --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Actually, what we'd like to know is what facts you
19 are aware of which you could link to such an allegation.
20 THE WITNESS: Well, there's a few things here, begging the
21 Court's indulgence. I was not present at the meeting at all. I was
22 advised by General Forand, the sector commander, that he had been invited
23 to a meeting, which, in fact, as far as I understand, was a meeting or an
24 invitation extended by General Gotovina, not by General Cermak, to his
25 headquarters or winter headquarters, as General Forand told me in Knin.
Page 6872
1 They went. That's all I knew. I didn't ask to go, I was not invited to
2 go.
3 When General Forand returned, I was called by Colonel Tymchuk,
4 one of his advisors, to his office where I was briefed that in the course
5 of that meeting, there was two things that seemed especially, to put it
6 politely, very much on the mind of General Gotovina as described to me by
7 General Forand, which was that we and the UNHCR were harbouring war
8 criminals in Sector South that we should hand over. First of all, that's
9 what I was told.
10 And, secondly, he seemed especially disturbed with my behaviour
11 and made, as I was told by General Forand, by Colonel Tymchuk, in the
12 presence of several officers accompanying General Forand, a threat
13 against myself personally with several allegations that I was an agent,
14 provacateur, et cetera.
15 I was only asked for my comment about how I felt. I cautioned by
16 my colleagues that I did not myself feel any kind of sense of foreboding
17 threat on the streets of Knin, that I was doing my job. If General
18 Forand felt that was reliable, I would continue; and, therefore, the
19 Sector South commander placed this at the latter part of his report to
20 Zagreb
21 something happened, he and other UN officials in Zagreb would be liable.
22 I then saw the rest of the correspondence from the force commander to
23 higher UN -- higher Croatian military officials. I did see the response
24 of General Gotovina. As I told you, I was not at the meeting.
25 I can myself offer you, if you wish to have it, my -- what would
Page 6873
1 be correctly speculation as to why he may have said this, but I don't
2 want to --
3 JUDGE ORIE: You're not invited to give any explanation.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, you read the whole of the letter. We
6 heard quite a long answer, which finally doesn't bring us what we asked
7 for; that is, whether there are any specific facts. The only thing I
8 heard is that, apparently, Mr. Gotovina has expressed that he considered
9 Mr. Roberts to be an agente provocateur, well, which is, of course, not
10 exactly the same thing as a spy, but that's the only thing that's added.
11 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps one last question which focuses on the
12 subject.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
14 MR. WAESPI:
15 Q. We know from your witness statements which are now in evidence
16 that you had a number of meetings with General Gotovina prior to the
17 Operation Storm. Now, given those meetings, does this reaction of
18 General Gotovina, who, as we read, wanted to say that it justifies your
19 execution, did that come as a surprise to you?
20 A. Well, first of all, I did not have meetings myself, my
21 initiation, with General Gotovina. I was in the presence of UN sector
22 commanders. I felt at those meetings that he had expressed more than
23 once that, as the UN public information officer, he felt the messages I
24 was portraying and saying to the press, especially in Zadar and Croatia
25 and in Korenica, were not appropriate. And I felt he was quite upset
Page 6874
1 with what he and his colleagues were monitoring what I was saying. And I
2 knew he did not like the role of myself and other UN colleagues in the
3 way we were acting inside Sector South in performing our mandate. That
4 was made very clear to me.
5 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I would like to offer this document
6 into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The letter, which apparently is page 2 of this --
8 I'll just check.
9 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I think it's --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think I've seen the letter before, but apparently
11 in the first page is now the -- it is a 12th of September message from
12 UNCRO COS, apparently to commander Sector South Alun Roberts, subject:
13 "Threat against the Sector South spokesman by HV authorities."
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes. It might well be that another version came in
15 with General Forand. I need to check that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. WAESPI: But just for the sake of completion, I would like to
18 tender it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But could we then at least understand that you
20 received a copy of this correspondence, Mr. Roberts?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have -- I did have at the time the sitrep
22 that went from Sector South commander to headquarters, and I have
23 received subsequently the response of General Janvier at the time, more
24 or less, and subsequently the correspondence between Mr. Janvier and
25 Croatian senior officials later.
Page 6875
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Waespi, we'll hear from you whether you insist on having this
3 in evidence, which might be repetitious evidence, but I have not verified
4 that.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my
7 examination-in-chief.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Who will be the first one to cross-examine the witness?
10 Mr. Kay.
11 MR. KAY: I am, Your Honour, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You're on your feet.
13 Mr. Roberts, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Kay, who is
14 counsel for Mr. Cermak.
15 Mr. Kay, please proceed.
16 MR. KAY: Just on a general notice, Your Honour will recollect,
17 and I think it's proper for me to this point out, the error that General
18 Forand spoke of in relation to this particular letter that there wasn't a
19 meeting at General Cermak's office. General Cermak wasn't there.
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's correct, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's on the record.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. KAY: Thank you.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:
25 Q. Mr. Roberts, the first matter I want to deal with is your initial
Page 6876
1 meetings referred to in your statement with no clear date, but you state
2 in those statements that you were present at meetings either on the
3 7th or 8th of August at General Cermak's office in which matters such as
4 freedom of movement were discussed. And I'll suspect you'll probably
5 remember those details. We've no need to look at them on the screen
6 because I'm going to refer you to various documents.
7 MR. KAY: For the Court's assistance, we'll be dealing with
8 evidence that arises in the statement of August 1997, Exhibit P675,
9 para 20; the statement of 28th of February, 2007, Exhibit P677. And it
10 concerns the details that arise from that passage within those
11 statements.
12 Q. Your first meeting, then, Mr. Roberts, outside the UNCRO camp was
13 when?
14 A. Thank you. My first meeting with General Cermak was in the
15 presence of the sector commander on the morning or late morning of the
16 8th of August, as I recall to the best of my ability and as I've put in
17 the statement. That was the meeting that General Forand had requested to
18 discuss a number of matters, and a number of us went from headquarters
19 Sector South to meet General Forand in town.
20 Q. And in relation to that meeting, within those statements, you
21 give characterization as to the role of Mr. Cermak and what was allegedly
22 said by him; that's right, isn't it?
23 A. That is generally correct, yes.
24 Q. Moving back a day to the 7th of August, that was a day when
25 Mr. Akashi came to the camp; and, presumably, on that day, that was the
Page 6877
1 first day that you met General Cermak. Is that right?
2 A. Not exactly. On the 7th of August was the visit, as you
3 explained, by the SRSG, Mr. Akashi. After he had toured the town of Knin
4 which was supervised very much by the Croatian authorities, naturally, he
5 came to the Sector South headquarters. And I don't know whether he was
6 accompanied by General Cermak or not, but there was a press briefing.
7 Now, my only contact with General Cermak was that he was sitting and
8 seated on the right-hand side of Mr. Akashi. I did not meet with him. I
9 arranged the room with my other colleagues from the press office for the
10 press conference. I did not speak to him directly, and later in the same
11 statement, I've recorded the press conference and main remarks by some
12 journalists in questions to Mr. Akashi and Mr. Cermak. I did not meet
13 him on the 7th of August in any kind of conversational way.
14 Q. 7th of August, then, was the first day that you had any contact
15 with him in that sense, in the sense of seeing him?
16 A. That's very correct. That's very fair. It's the first time I'd
17 seen General Cermak.
18 Q. In your statements, you're unclear as to the date when there was
19 a meeting concerning the discussions of the UNCRO contingent and
20 discussions with General Cermak over where they could or could not go.
21 Is that right?
22 A. I think, to the best of my ability, that the first two statements
23 I actually made to ICTY investigators in 1997/1998 were perhaps the
24 clearest. And I, in 1997 in that paragraph 20, recall the meeting of
25 UNCRO officials from Sector South headquarters with General Cermak. That
Page 6878
1 is a description. There is nothing there in quotation marks. It is my
2 observations as to the kind of meeting we had, what General Forand wished
3 to try and accomplish, and the characterization of the response of
4 General Cermak of what he replied.
5 Q. And in your statement of 2007, you say it was either one or the
6 other date, and I'm looking at page 7 of that statement and the second
7 paragraph: "I recall that either Monday, the 7th, or Tuesday, the 8th of
8 August, I went with General Forand and other UN officials to meet with
9 General Cermak."
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Why the uncertainty?
12 A. At the time of this statement, if you look at the date, it is
13 2007. And as a small aside, it's a long time between the statement to an
14 investigator of, I think, early 1997 - in fact, August 1997 - to what is,
15 in fact, ten years after, 2007, which in some parts might have been just
16 generally descriptive. But I, having reviewed the 1997 statement, recall
17 that the meeting, in fact, was the 8th of August.
18 Q. On the 7th of August, when General Cermak was at the UNCRO camp
19 and after Mr. Akashi had gone, were you present when there was a meeting
20 between him and members of the displaced persons who were present at the
21 camp?
22 A. I don't think on that occasion I was present, but I was present,
23 I think, at a later meeting, or I thought was later, in which General
24 Cermak spoke to a delegation of the displaced persons. I cannot recall
25 being at a meeting on the 7th of August, but I know that General Cermak
Page 6879
1 had expressed his wish to meet with the displaced persons as soon as
2 possible.
3 Q. Thank you. I might be wrong about that date. I'm trying to
4 position you to help you, as there's uncertainty about it. And for these
5 questions, that's not really important. It may, in fact. Have been on
6 the 8th of August, you're quite right.
7 So you weren't present on the 7th of August when General Forand
8 met General Cermak at General Cermak's headquarters?
9 A. I just heard you say the 7th of August?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I was not at a meeting that I recall was on the 7th of August. I
12 recall that Mr. Akashi was in town on the 7th of August, and there was a
13 press briefing late that morning, and that General Cermak attended the
14 press briefing. I can recall going to a meeting with General Forand and
15 the head of civil affairs, Mr. Al-Alfi, and other heads of the UN, which
16 I had thought was the 8th of August, and that's why I put it in my
17 statement of 1997, that I recall that meeting of a large delegation of
18 the UN as being the 8th of August.
19 MR. KAY: Can we turn to Exhibit P356, please. This is a sitrep
20 dated the 8th of August. Can we turn to page 2 of that UNCRO sitrep and
21 go to paragraph 8 if that can be blown up for the benefit of -- or raised
22 up the screen.
23 Q. And in paragraph 8, we see here from this document from HQ Sector
24 South Knin, presumably this is a document that you would have seen, is
25 that right? It's an UNCRO sitrep.
Page 6880
1 A. I can't recall seeing this document previously.
2 Q. So are we to take it that not all UNCRO sitreps actually came
3 before you?
4 A. The majority of them did, I had access to all of them, but I
5 can't recall the specificity of this document on the meeting of the
6 7th of August.
7 Q. Are you able to tell us at all as to what types of UNCRO sitreps
8 that were being transmitted to Zagreb
9 A. I had access to most of the documentation that went from Sector
10 South commander's office to Zagreb
11 UN Human Rights Action Team reports penned by the heads of that
12 departments.
13 Q. I'm asking you about UNCRO sitreps because that's what we've got
14 in front of us, and I would be grateful if you would direct your
15 attention to that because you said most of documents. I'd like to know
16 if there was a category that didn't, if you were excluded from any
17 particular acquire of document?
18 A. If they were confidential memoirs between the sector commander
19 and of a military nature with headquarters or perhaps something from
20 UNCRO, head of political affairs that were thought sensitive, we would
21 not necessarily get them. We can't say every single specific document,
22 but the majority, yes, I would have access to.
23 Q. Turning, then, to paragraph 8, this is a report of the meeting
24 written here with the commander of Sector South, General Forand, General
25 Cermak, and you can see that the meeting refers to one that took place at
Page 6881
1 6.00 on the 7th of August to discuss items of mutual interest. It refers
2 to who was assisting General Forand, CAC. Do you know who that is?
3 A. It would be the civil affairs coordinator. I think it's not
4 quite the right terminology for the exact title of the post of
5 Mr. Hussein Al-Alfi, but, you're right, basically that's who it would be.
6 Senior Military Observer, EJ Flynn, head of the human rights section --
7 Q. SMO, senior monitoring officer?
8 A. Senior military observer, I think is correct.
9 Q. DEPCOMD?
10 A. Deputy commander, possibly.
11 Q. Would that have been Mr. Tymchuk or Mr. Leslie?
12 A. Andrew Leslie, I think, at the time was the Chief of Staff who
13 departed shortly after to Zagreb
14 Q. And the SLO, that's senior liaison officer?
15 A. Senior liaison officer, you're right.
16 Q. And, there, General Cermak was assisted by a Captain Lukovic?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. The tone of meeting cordial, atmosphere within the HQ was with
19 intense activity, which left the impression the HV was unprepared for its
20 success.
21 A. I haven't got that in front of me. Could you turn the page or
22 pull that --
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. KAY: Page 3, please.
25 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
Page 6882
1 MR. KAY:
2 Q. Military governor expressed a desire for frequent meetings, even
3 daily, and he asked to visit and speak to the displaced population -
4 internally displaced persons population is what that stands for - at the
5 headquarters in Sector South on the 8th of August. This was agreed. UN
6 humanitarian agencies must soon decide the criteria concerning
7 questioning of the IDPs.
8 A paragraph concerning the civil authorities, a paragraph
9 concerning observation posts, patrolling would now be done by UNCIVPOL
10 and other UN teams that you're familiar with, about the agreement between
11 the Government of Croatia
12 area considered safe for travel by the Croatian authorities is the area
13 of Knin. This will be progressively expanded. Further references there.
14 It was agreed UNHCR convoys would be free to travel within the
15 area and that storage space would be made available for supplies in Knin,
16 and then special measures concerning protection of people.
17 So that was the position as recorded by General Forand's staff,
18 and we've heard evidence about that from him, on the 7th of August, and
19 the discussion there with General Cermak concerning freedom of movement.
20 And you weren't present at that meeting, as we know.
21 A. Well, sir, let me just be very clear with you. It may be a
22 different date of one day. I was in the party with General Forand, with
23 EJ Flynn, with Benny Otim, with Mr. Al-Alfi, that met with Mr. Cermak in
24 his office in the centre of town.
25 This sitrep I'm reading, for me, for me, what is very important,
Page 6883
1 even if with the Court's forgiveness it is a matter of one day, is what
2 was said at that meeting. I'm reading this sitrep very carefully; and as
3 I do, I recall seeing some of this before. But I recall very, very
4 certainly contact with General Forand, Benny Otim of UNHCR, before we had
5 that meeting with General Cermak. And the biggest concern, the biggest
6 concern, was of the UN's ability to get out of Sector South headquarters,
7 patrol the streets of Knin, and get out to verify what might be
8 happening, might be happening, in the villages, hamlets around, as per
9 UNCRO full freedom of movement.
10 And what I've said there on that paragraph is exactly as I
11 remember, General Forand being quite strong, polite, in his request that
12 we be allowed to do that, and saying very clearly, If you do not allow us
13 to do this, if you do not allow us to do this, I cannot say that Croatian
14 authorities, political military police are standing by human rights.
15 Now, that's my version of what I distinctly remember being said
16 by the sector commander.
17 Q. First of all --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, you earlier read or summarized this
19 document, and the line that the HV "seemed not to be prepared for
20 success" is not the same as that they "seemed at least slightly
21 unprepared for the rapid success."
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, can I say, I only did that to skip
24 through quickly. There's nothing in this line of questioning to do with
25 that issue.
Page 6884
1 Q. What I am concerned, and I do invite you to look at it very
2 carefully, Mr. Roberts, is that your characterization within your
3 statements of your meetings with General Cermak at a meeting with
4 Mr. Forand are not as borne-out by what is written in your statement.
5 Isn't that right?
6 A. I'm looking here at one document that you have shown about that
7 meeting. I also had seen summary reports of that meeting from my
8 colleague EJ Flynn and from civil affairs. I have not tendered them as
9 part of my supporting evidence, but I think that there definitely was
10 discussion, as I recall other sitreps of the sector commander's office,
11 specifically in regard to that meeting, pointing out what was agreed at
12 that meeting of freedom of movement, and that it was not being followed.
13 Q. Can I just interrupt you because your evidence was quite clear in
14 those statements, which you've told us was the truth, was that General
15 Cermak was restricting you to the centre of town and just side-streets.
16 This is not reflected in this document, is it?
17 A. Well, I'm saying clearly what I heard, first of all, and recall
18 at that meeting. And I do know, sir, that there are other documents from
19 the office of General Forand and from UNMOs and CIVPOL in the days
20 immediately following that meeting, which --
21 Q. Can I stop you there. We're talking about your characterization
22 of General Cermak at the meeting where you give an impression of who he
23 was and what he was. Please do not move to further down what was
24 happening later. Please deal with the accuracy of what you were asked to
25 give evidence about.
Page 6885
1 A. And my response, then, is that what I put in this document is
2 what I recall, to the best of my ability, the statements of General
3 Forand at that time and the responses that we understood from General
4 Cermak on his authority and what he said in terms of his ability: We
5 should have freedom of movement in the centre and side-streets of Knin to
6 begin with.
7 Q. Just looking at this document, and you've told us you've seen
8 many of them, is there any reference to you -- other than it being
9 distributed to you internally, is there any reference to you being
10 present at this meeting on the 7th of August?
11 A. No. I do not see anything referring to me being present at that
12 meeting, described as happening on the 7th of August. However, I am in
13 the court under oath, and I was at a meeting attended by General Forand,
14 with Hussein Al-Alfi from civil affairs, EJ Flynn, Benny Otim, in the
15 office of General Forand, General Cermak, as I recall in my statement, on
16 the 8th of August. You're pointing out the sitrep of the 7th, and I've
17 said what was for me very significant at that meeting.
18 MR. KAY: Shall we, then, move to another document dated the
19 7thof August, Exhibit P111.
20 Q. We're going to look at another document now, another UNMO HQ
21 Sector South daily sitrep, dealing with what happened on that day,
22 released by Mr. Ermolaev. And we can see the first page there.
23 MR. KAY: Let us now turn to page 7, a summary of meetings.
24 Q. You'll see a time there in August, UN special representative
25 Mr. Akashi had a meeting. You'll see in the next section a Sector South
Page 6886
1 delegation, including DSMO.
2 A. I'm not seeing that. It needs to go down, if it could be --
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Met in former ARSK HQ with newly posted military governor of
6 Knin. So it's another report of the same meeting, and you referred to
7 there being other reports. General Cermak and senior Croatian army
8 liaison officer, Sector South delegation was told, UNMOs, CIVPOL, and
9 other humanitarian would be able to monitor within Knin town boundaries
10 and other areas, but on the 8th of August, afternoon, Sector South would
11 receive info about the areas where security of UNMOs and other
12 humanitarian agencies - turning to next page - cannot be guaranteed.
13 Sector South delegation told: Military and CIVPOL ... took over
14 control of Knin. The next matter, the new military governor stated they
15 will try to re-establish electricity. The next matter, General Cermak
16 expressed his desire to meet with refugees, and there was to be a meeting
17 on the 8th of August.
18 So just turning back to that page 7, which is the relevant matter
19 on this issue, would you agree this description is different from the
20 description given by you in your statement that at a meeting, General
21 Cermak was restricting the UN to the town centre and side-streets?
22 A. I think that this document is an interpretation, but I can recall
23 what was said. Here, if you look at the last few lines that: "CIVPOL
24 and other humanitarian would be able to monitor within Knin town bounders
25 and other areas. But on the 8th of August afternoon, Sector South would
Page 6887
1 receive information about the areas where security of UNMOs and other
2 humanitarian agencies can ..."
3 Q. "... not be guaranteed," is where it moves on to on the next
4 page.
5 A. Right. Well, I can recall at that same meeting that I have
6 referred to in my report --
7 Q. Yours isn't a report; it's a statement.
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Yeah.
10 A. But, nevertheless, sir, it was a document that was in other ways
11 passed on to my public information office in Zagreb.
12 Q. Did you have contemporaneous notes of the meeting?
13 A. I think I may have, but I don't know whether I have them now.
14 But I think that I recall having some of the meeting when I compiled some
15 of this in 1997, but I can't be sure.
16 Q. Mr. Roberts, to make it clear, contemporaneous means at the time,
17 not what you write a couple of years later.
18 A. I do understand.
19 Q. Yes. But do you have any notes at the time, written at the time?
20 A. I do not recall I took notes of that meeting at that very time.
21 Q. Were you present at that meeting?
22 A. Yes. I was present at a meeting with General Forand, General
23 Cermak in the centre of Knin, and I've said that now three times. And I
24 was there and my colleagues who also were there would know I was there.
25 Q. Thank you. Anything else you would like to say, then, about
Page 6888
1 the --
2 A. Can I just see the very first page of this sitrep that you
3 brought up, if I could.
4 Q. Page 1.
5 A. The very front.
6 Q. Yeah.
7 A. Not that I'm saying I saw anything, but --
8 Q. For internal distribution PIO.
9 A. That's right, yeah. Just on that last paragraph: Croatian
10 authorities stated that restriction for UNMOs and other humanitarian
11 organizations will be lifted on the 8th of August, but there will be some
12 areas where security cannot be guaranteed."
13 May I for the court and for reference, my collection on that - I
14 don't know what has been said by other witnesses who may have been before
15 the Tribunal - again, I politely insist that I recall the sector
16 commander saying to General Cermak that the UN had the ability to decide
17 what were secure areas and what were not.
18 Q. Very well.
19 MR KAY: Let's now turn to Exhibit page 3 -- Exhibit
20 Prosecution 359.
21 Your Honour, actually looking at the time, we're going into the
22 matters on that day. It may be better to take the second break at this
23 stage.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll now take a break and we'll resume
25 at a quarter to 1.00, so that we then have one hour still available
Page 6889
1 today.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, please proceed.
5 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Exhibit P359, please.
7 Q. This is a Sector South report again for the next day, the 8th of
8 August, distributed internally to you, Mr. Roberts. If we turn to page 2
9 we see in commander's assessment that there was two meetings on this day,
10 one with Mr. Gotovina and one where Mr. Cermak. And we're going to look
11 at the report of those meetings.
12 If we turn to page 3 of the document, the meeting with
13 Mr. Gotovina was in the Knin fortress, and you've referred to that as a
14 meeting of which you were aware. Is that right?
15 A. Yes. I was aware of that meeting that Sector South commander
16 went to. I think it was the meeting that President Tudjman came to the
17 fortress, and it was that meeting that General Forand went to.
18 Q. Were you present at that meeting?
19 A. If this is the meeting that was at the fortress, on the evening I
20 think of the 6th of August, I was not --
21 Q. No. This is at 9.20 on the 8th of August, 9.20 in the morning.
22 A. No. I was not at that meeting in the morning.
23 Q. Yes. And you can see in this report here that the meeting with
24 General Gotovina between General Forand, General Forand refers to having
25 met General Cermak previously, and that's the previous day. And then
Page 6890
1 you'll see, in part 2, that freedom of movement is discussed with General
2 Gotovina. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I do see that.
4 Q. Is this a sitrep that you read at the time?
5 A. I recall, if not seeing this document, something very similar to
6 it, in regard to the issue of freedom of movement being set out.
7 Q. Court --
8 A. I'm looking at paragraph 3. Just one moment if I could. Some of
9 this I can recall, but not very clearly in terms of it being like
10 yesterday.
11 Q. Right. You'll see in the third paragraph, as numbered on that
12 page, a meeting between General Forand and Mr. Cermak; and paragraph 1 of
13 that document, you'll see, recounts Colonel Cermak, it says this, coming
14 to HQ Sector South at 1.00 to meet with General Forand and a committee
15 of IDPs. Now, that's the 8th of August.
16 Were you present when General Cermak met the IDPs that afternoon
17 at the UNCRO camp?
18 A. I can't be sure right now that it was that meeting, but there was
19 a meeting certainly near the front gate of the Sector South camp one
20 afternoon. I think I've put it in one of my statements it was later, but
21 it could have been the 8th of August. If that was so and it was the
22 front gate at a table with chairs and so on, I was sitting at that table,
23 and General Cermak did address the -- what was a delegation of
24 representatives of the IDPs that had been established. I thought that
25 took place later because that kind of discussion on whether they could
Page 6891
1 have been representation I think took some days, but I could be wrong.
2 Q. You'll see in this subparagraph 1, of what's numbered 3 there at
3 the bottom, that General Cermak's referred to being a very busy man, he
4 was soon to go to his headquarters, he would give orders that UN elements
5 would be allowed to travel freely within Knin and to Drnis, something he
6 had been prevented from doing until now due to the pressure of his
7 schedule.
8 Do you see that?
9 A. I do see what it says there, yes.
10 Q. Do you agree that the UNCRO report here recording what was said
11 reflects no restrictions to there being restricted movement within Knin
12 itself?
13 A. I can see what it says, but I'm also recalling quite vividly the
14 internal discussions we had, and I do not think it was so easy that we
15 had freedom of movement or we moved around so quickly unrestricted.
16 Q. Why I'm asking these questions is your characterization in your
17 statement of 2007, February 2007, at page 7, that Cermak eventually
18 agreed to let the UN patrol the main street and the centre part of the
19 town from the 8th of August, as though he'd been the subject of
20 considerable pressure by General Forand and he eventually gave a
21 concession. That was not the case, was it, Mr. Roberts?
22 A. Well, I'm very sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I recall,
23 before we'd even met with General Cermak, the very strong feelings of
24 General Forand.
25 Q. Can I just stop you there. It's not general strong feelings
Page 6892
1 about anyone. You're not here giving a press conference of inaccurate
2 information or summaries by you; it's exactly what was said that we're
3 interested in.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness should be allowed to explain.
6 If counsel puts to him that he cannot -- wasn't honest or something, I
7 think he should be at least given the chance to finish his sentence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just read again what Mr. Kay --
9 MR. KAY: I don't want my time to be lost, Your Honour, by
10 unfocused answers not addressing the issue, and that's the submission I
11 make.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness only started his answer and may
13 finish his answer.
14 At the same time, Mr. Roberts, you're invited to answer as
15 concisely as possible mainly about facts, not about general impressions,
16 unless there are certain facts that led you to have these impressions.
17 The last question was: Mr. Kay put it to you that it was not the case
18 that Mr. Cermak eventually agreed to let the UN patrol the main street
19 and the centre part of the town, only being subject of considerable
20 pressure by General Forand. Could you please answer the question.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honour, I do think there was a very
22 strong conversation that I recall taking place, not a long one, not a
23 long one, but I recall clearly the statement at the meeting of General
24 Cermak, that it was not completely secure for the UN to have freedom of
25 movement in all of Knin.
Page 6893
1 And I recall the response of General Forand being, more or less,
2 Thank you, sir, but the UN will have to decide what is secure and what is
3 not. We wish to have as soon as possible - I recall that, more or less,
4 being said - freedom of movement in and around Knin and also to determine
5 that for ourselves.
6 And that was a kind of loggerhead point; and at the end of the
7 meeting it was, Very well. Okay. You've got the centre of Knin and the
8 side-streets.
9 And, again, the issue came from General Cermak that it wasn't
10 completely secure, and he couldn't give consent beyond Knin. That is my
11 very clear recollection of that meeting and very polite assistance of
12 General Alain Forand.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. KAY:
15 Q. You weren't at this meeting on the 8th of August, is that right,
16 at the camp?
17 A. This meeting at the camp?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. As I've said earlier, I recall there being a meeting with the DPs
20 and attended by General Cermak. I can't be sure it's this early on.
21 Q. No. It's at the meeting with General Forand and General Cermak
22 at the camp.
23 A. No, I was not --
24 Q. A meeting with the displaced persons is something entirely
25 different.
Page 6894
1 A. Right. I was not at that meeting with General Forand and General
2 Cermak at the camp together with the DPs.
3 Q. Did you know that General Gotovina had supplied a map on the
4 8th of August to General Forand, showing the areas that could be used for
5 travel?
6 A. I see paragraph 2 here, and I recall at the time being told of a
7 discussion where maps would be produced by the Croatian military in
8 regard to where we could patrol and move and where we could not.
9 Q. Did you know where that was produced from? Did you know it was
10 General Gotovina?
11 A. I did not know General Gotovina personally, if that's what you're
12 saying. I understood it was from the Croatian military that maps would
13 be produced in regard to where we could go and did not go. I'm looking
14 here, if I may, sir, at paragraph 2. It does not, to my mind, record a
15 response or any real characterization of the issue of freedom of
16 movement. It just says what General Gotovina had said he would do, in
17 regard to my interpretation there, we can go certain places, but maps
18 would define where we could go and where we could not. That's not full
19 freedom of movement.
20 Q. What I'm challenging -- Mr. Roberts, you've made statements
21 you've told the Court are the truth; and in those statements, you gave
22 your opinion that you assumed the desire of General Cermak to limit UN
23 access only to the centre of town was because this would allow further
24 clean-up in the streets and side roads away from the town centre without
25 UN personnel having access to see the real situation and what was
Page 6895
1 happening. That's what I'm addressing these questions to you --
2 A. I understand completely.
3 Q. -- because you insinuate in that part of your statement that
4 General Cermak was trying to restrict movement around Knin so that crimes
5 could be committed. That was the purpose of you putting that in your
6 statement, wasn't it?
7 A. I've heard you just say now so that crimes can be committed. I
8 have not said that. I have the distinct impression of myself, my
9 observations, and those of my colleagues of there being restrictions of
10 movement in the early days after Knin fell, and the conclusion was
11 because clean-up was certainly going on in a very, very quick and
12 vigorous and organized way.
13 Q. So what do you mean by that?
14 A. Because when we got out into town, we were seeing that places
15 that my colleagues and myself had seen on the 4th of August and others
16 had seen them on the 5th of August, glass windows of shops that had been
17 damaged replaced very, very quickly; other repairs going on to certain
18 places.
19 Q. What's wrong with that?
20 A. Just in terms of things being organized, as if in advance, to put
21 things together, and just in terms of what my colleagues had seen, and in
22 terms of the shelling on the 4th of August. Traces of that were not
23 observed in the early part when we get out, and that was several days
24 after. My colleagues --
25 Q. Again, you move things further and further away from the
Page 6896
1 question. What you said in this statement here was: " ... to see the
2 real situation and what was happening."
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. What did you mean by that in your statement if you weren't trying
5 to insinuate that General Cermak was restricting movement within Knin so
6 that crimes could be committed?
7 A. You are saying crimes could be committed. I've never said that
8 in a statement. You're referring that I have said that and I have never
9 said that.
10 Q. What do you mean by "real situation"?
11 A. I'm referring to the fact of the UN's desire from the evening of
12 the 5th of August to get out into Knin to verify what was happening in
13 town, and that we were restricted on that late afternoon by an APC, being
14 blocked, and we did not get out into town with any proper authority to
15 patrol regularly until the early part of the 8th of August.
16 And, therefore, I am saying we could not see what was going on,
17 but certainly a clean-up was going on and we were not able to verify to
18 say what did or did not take place. I know very well that not only for
19 myself, my colleagues have also expressed the same opinion.
20 MR. KAY: Can we look at Exhibit P513, please.
21 Q. This is the document referred to on the 8th of August in that
22 sitrep which was the document promised to General Forand by General
23 Cermak, and you'll notice here the terms of that document.
24 "As of 8th of August, all UNCRO elements with clearly displayed
25 insignia may move freely in the areas of Knin and Drnis.
Page 6897
1 "Advise them to use main roads only. If they're turning off
2 them, it is at their own risk ..."
3 You would agree, there, nothing about restricting people to the
4 centre of Knin and the side-streets?
5 A. I see what's written there is reference to "move freely in the
6 areas," areas, "of Knin and Drnis.
7 "2. Advise them to use main roads only," only main roads. "If
8 they're turning off them, it is at their own risk ..."
9 I do not see there, sir, a clear reference to full freedom of
10 movement. I see paragraph 2 being an interpretation of what might be
11 restriction of UN movement to only main roads. We did not ask for that.
12 And Knin and Drnis, does this mean though we could move along the road
13 from Knin to Drnis, roads off Drnis, roads off Knin? Those are occasions
14 I know my colleagues have reported, restrictions of movement.
15 Q. I'm asking you for your evidence, and can you explain why your
16 statement about what was the permission given to the UN, why it is
17 different from what was actually happening at the time?
18 A. Well, what I'm looking at, sir, is a letter. What is actually
19 happening on the ground as borne-out by my colleagues - and I don't know
20 if they testified or not - but from their reports is what I was going on.
21 And there was clear evidence in reality of restrictions of movement to UN
22 personnel, despite this particular letter.
23 And if I may, with due respect to the Court, I know very well
24 from seeing the letters that General Forand politely sent to General
25 Cermak letters protesting restrictions of movement on no less than six or
Page 6898
1 seven occasions. Those letters have passed to me. I did not use them in
2 any way before the press.
3 Q. Again, you talk about other things happening later, and I'm
4 asking you to focus on what you have said was happening on the 7th or 8th
5 of August, not what was happening days later and what was happening on
6 the ground, but acts and conduct that you ascribe to General Cermak, not
7 other things. Can we get that clear?
8 A. Yes. I think we are very clear, or at least I am very clear. I
9 am
10 advised to him -- the meeting with General Forand, sorry, advised to him
11 by General Cermak. And I am very clear what I saw and my colleagues saw
12 in those same days in reality, and the two things are not the same.
13 Q. Very well. We'll move on to a new matter, and that concerns
14 General Cermak's appointment. Did you know he was a civilian immediately
15 prior to the 5th of August, 1995?
16 A. Not at the time, no. "Not at the time," I mean not at the time
17 we were introduced to him as the military commander of Knin. I believe
18 the right terminology is garrison commander, but I learned that later.
19 But I didn't know he had been in civilian life previously, no.
20 Q. Had you seen in the press an article in Slobodna Dalmacija, dated
21 the 6th of August, 1995, about his appointment as commander of the Knin
22 garrison?
23 A. I can't recall it being in Slobodna Dalmacija, but I recall our
24 press office monitoring the press at that time and reading that General
25 Cermak had been appointed to that post with that form of title, yes.
Page 6899
1 MR. KAY: For the Court purposes, we've seen the newspaper report
2 at Exhibit D36. I won't call that up now.
3 Can we produce Exhibit D37.
4 Q. Your press office monitored the Croatian press; is that right?
5 A. That's correct, yes. I think all UN missions have media
6 monitoring units, yes.
7 Q. And this article in Slobodna Dalmacija, dated the 10th of August,
8 1995, is an interview with General Cermak about the restoration of Knin
9 and the surrounding area. Was this an article that you would have seen
10 at the time?
11 A. I can't recall now that we saw that article and translated it.
12 I'll explain very briefly. We didn't have access to Croatian newspapers
13 in the normal way we had previously in the days following Operation
14 Storm. So I recall the general context of it, but not necessarily that
15 we transcribed that newspaper article at the time.
16 Q. Were you aware of the statements as in this article, about the
17 task of General Cermak: "We are in the process of restoring the Knin
18 Garrison. We are doing our best to bring normality back to a town with
19 no civilian authorities, no water, electricity, or telephone lines."
20 Were you aware of that as being his task?
21 A. You're telling me that's his task.
22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. Is that from the newspaper report --
24 Q. Yes. Yeah.
25 A. -- itself?
Page 6900
1 Q. Paragraph 3, it's an interview with him.
2 A. I'd be very careful. I respect very well the description of
3 General Cermak himself and his authorities, but I don't know precisely
4 what was the official authorities -- that explains one function of work.
5 "We are doing our best," where "we" I would suppose being the Croatian
6 authorities, and an interpretation of his: "A town with no civilian
7 authorities," yes, "no water," which is a very general description of
8 what his -- some of his duties might be.
9 Q. Yes. Were you aware of that?
10 A. I was not aware that that officially was his sole
11 responsibility - not that I'm suggesting it is - but I'm not -- if you're
12 saying that was his function --
13 Q. You're not here to suggest anything, just to give us what you
14 knew.
15 A. Well, you're asking me what I'm seeing in the quote --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kay, if you're saying that --
17 MR. KAY: I take the point, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- this was his function, then the witness as a
19 matter of fact asks, seeks clarification of your question, so that he's
20 fully entitled to do so.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. KAY:
23 Q. Yes. Would you like to add anything else? I wouldn't like to
24 cut you off, Mr. Roberts.
25 A. It's okay, sir.
Page 6901
1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. Clearly, the town, in the days following Operation Storm, yes,
3 these things were a problem, as I recollect, for UN Sector South
4 headquarters: Lack of electricity, supply being regular, water-supply
5 was off for, I think, a day. Yes. Those things were a good
6 characterization here as presented by General Cermak in his quotation
7 marks.
8 MR. KAY: D38, please, Exhibit D38.
9 Q. This is from Vecernji List that we're going to look at in a
10 moment, another newspaper, 11th of August, 1995, where the task of
11 General Cermak is set out in paragraph 2 in the English.
12 "My task is to coordinate the establishment of civilian
13 authority ... running of all systems necessary for a normal life of the
14 town. That includes coordinating the work of the civilian police, the
15 military police, and the civilian authority. Currently, there is no
16 civilian authority in Knin. The government has appointed its
17 commissioner Petar Pasic ..."
18 And we can see the rest of the text. Again, a report you would
19 have seen at the time?
20 A. I think I recall, sir, not exactly the time the newspaper was
21 published, but I think we had a copy of that within a few days, and I'm
22 not sure it was translated at the time, but I remember being told and
23 then a rough-hand translation was made of some of these extracts that
24 you've pointed out here --
25 Q. Yes.
Page 6902
1 A. -- in terms of especially the one where General Cermak is saying,
2 "My task is to coordinate, as this is before us here."
3 Q. How many meetings were you at where General Cermak was present?
4 A. I was present at not very many meetings. The meeting of the
5 8th of August, as I recall, with the main UN officials. There was, I
6 think, one or two other meetings I attended with EJ Flynn and Mr. Hussein
7 Al-Alfi later on in regard to human rights and humanitarian matters. And
8 there was a meeting I was present at, as I explained, where General
9 Cermak did address a delegation of DPs I felt later in the week of the
10 8th of August, some weeks further on, I think, just inside the gates of
11 Sector South.
12 And that was about it in terms of my being at meetings rather
13 than having meetings with, if I can put it like that.
14 Then the last one was perhaps was the evening of the big bus
15 convoy leaving Sector South headquarters to go across to Serbia with the
16 DPs in the camp, where there was a group of male persons who were
17 identified as allegedly having committed war crimes, and we talked very
18 briefly at the gate that night.
19 That's about it.
20 Q. In relation to the tasks that he was to deal with, you didn't
21 know anything about the Croatian government system as to why he was there
22 and what powers he had from them. You didn't know anything about that?
23 A. I did not. I recall, sir, that I had asked my press office in
24 Zagreb
25 document, official or otherwise, in terms of the right title of General
Page 6903
1 Cermak, his terms of reference as set out by the Croatian government
2 authorities who appointed him. I did not get anything like that from my
3 press office, so I was not clear in terms of what was the official exact
4 terminology of the Croatian government defined for General Cermak.
5 MR. KAY: We'll look at Exhibit D36, then, which is another
6 passage from Slobodna Dalmacija on the 6th of August, 1995, the day after
7 his appointment.
8 Q. It's headed --
9 A. Could I just -- sorry. Is it allowable for me to make a comment
10 on this article that's before us already in Slobodna Dalmacija that's
11 quoted by General Cermak or not?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Not at this moment.
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If at the end of your testimony you would like to
15 add anything you consider relevant and if you make a note of that so as
16 to remember, that's fine, but not during the examination by Mr. Kay --
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- unless it becomes relevant in relation to one of
19 the questions.
20 MR. KAY: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. This was the report of Slobodna Dalmacija of the appointment that
24 was made the previous day, the 5th of August, and you can see the
25 Croatian newspaper piece there and the translation on the left of the
Page 6904
1 screen. Was this a document that you saw at the time?
2 A. I recall seeing this maybe at least over a week or maybe two
3 weeks after it was published. There were, I think, one or two other
4 similar ones in other mainstream Croatian press based upon, you can see
5 here, it says Zagreb HINA. HINA is the Croatian press agency. But I go
6 with that. So I can recall reading a week or two after the actual
7 publication of the article.
8 Q. And within the structure that -- sorry, within the structure of
9 the Croatian armed forces, the position of commander of Knin garrison,
10 was that something you researched or someone informed you about at the
11 time?
12 A. I recall - being careful that I'm not stepping out of the direct
13 question - but I recall discussion at Sector South headquarters about the
14 terms of reference of General Cermak. I don't want to say anything
15 further in case I'm not answering the question. But I see here and I
16 remember seeing at the time, these were set out to be, according to HINA,
17 the Croatian press agency, his duties and tasks as commander of the Knin
18 garrison.
19 Q. Right. Okay.
20 A. It's like a biography.
21 Q. Yes. It's released the next day. In terms of what you knew, he
22 said he was there to assist the UN in Sector South; that's right, isn't
23 it?
24 A. That's what I really recall General Cermak saying in a very - I
25 can say this - in a sense of cooperation, that he portrayed in words that
Page 6905
1 if there should be difficulties, problems, freedom of movement,
2 humanitarian issues, without him actually saying those words, that we
3 should come to him, that he should be the person we have in our mind as
4 the main interlocutor in Knin. And that's why, I think, my colleagues
5 who, because of their specific mandates, had meetings with him more
6 regular than I did, people like the sector commander, Mr. Al-Alfi, civil
7 affairs, EJ Flynn, Benny Otim, and so on. But he, General Cermak, was
8 the person that they would go and meet with.
9 Q. And as you said, you were only at a few meetings on other
10 matters, but were you aware that his role in relation to the internally
11 displaced persons in the camp was to help UNCRO try and solve that
12 problem on its door-step?
13 A. He was, yes, the main interlocutor on behalf of the Croatian
14 government authorities that General Forand had meetings with on that
15 particular issue of the DPs. General Forand was also at times
16 accompanied at times, I understand, by people such as the head of UN
17 civil affairs because it was a political civilian matter as well. But
18 that was our main interlocutor. General Forand, too, General Cermak at
19 the Sector South level in Knin; and to their counterpart separate
20 headquarters UN, and I suppose to the Croatian government through the
21 command of General Cermak, on which there were many, many discussions
22 about that particular problem that you've highlighted.
23 Q. The Court has seen a vast raft of documents solely on those
24 issues.
25 A. Sorry.
Page 6906
1 MR. KAY: And, Your Honour, I don't propose to go through those
2 in the interests of time, as it was only a few weeks ago. Even if it had
3 been months ago, I know the Court would know the material.
4 Q. When you described General Forand reporting, did you mean to
5 UNCRO headquarters in Zagreb
6 A. On the issue of the DPs, or on --
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Yes. That was a very sensitive matter for a range of reasons,
9 notwithstanding the fact of the quite strong, understandable, but strong
10 insistence on the Croatian authorities of there being suspected war
11 criminals amongst the DPs that they wished to interview, and there was
12 many discussions on that aspect before it was finally resolved. I think
13 the Court probably knows the documentation.
14 Q. Yes. You refer in your statement to the people who were
15 eventually separated from the main group of people who were to be allowed
16 out of the camp to go to Serbia
17 eventually went; that there was a number, 35 in fact, who were retained
18 under the authority of the Croatian government for questioning in
19 relation to suspected war crimes. You were aware of that?
20 A. I think it was very well documented. I have referred to it, I
21 think, in my 1997 statement. Yes, in simplified terms, although it was a
22 very big issue. When you say "separate," it was that evening, basically,
23 that we had resolved over a period of a week or more with the assistance
24 of a UN - I won't say certified - but UN-blessed Croatian advocate, a
25 woman lawyer, to come into the Sector South camp to interview what was a
Page 6907
1 much reduced list of male persons in the DP community, in the camp, to
2 meet with them, to discuss with them. And we got - we didn't get - but
3 the list came down to about 34, 35.
4 Q. We have seen all this evidence --
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. -- yet.
7 A. Well, the evening concerned they were put on buses outside the
8 Sector South headquarters first and driven away to respective detention
9 centres, I think, in Split
10 that, the DPs some hours later were put on other buses, many buses, to go
11 across to Serbia
12 Q. Now, in your statement, you're critical of General Cermak being
13 present when Croatian authorities were filming these suspects leaving the
14 camp, and you say you became involved in a way by then filming the
15 Croatian TV or reporters who were recording the matter. And you were
16 critical of General Cermak in respect of that. Do you recollect that in
17 your statement?
18 A. I recollect it very well, sir.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Just looking at that, do you think what you were doing, was in
22 fact, being provocative by filming Croatian authorities filming people
23 who had not been in their custody or authority, but were coming out of
24 the UN and coming into the authority of the Croatian government?
25 A. You are asking if you think I personally was not being
Page 6908
1 provocative?
2 Q. Yes, that you were being provocative by then filming the filmers.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. It's at paragraphs 29 to 33 --
5 A. I have it in front of me.
6 Q. -- of you're August 1997 statement.
7 A. First of all, to try and summarize this for the Court, this was a
8 very difficult evening, a long evening, at the end of a lot of
9 negotiation by senior UN officials in Zagreb headquarters, one of two of
10 which were deployed to Sector South to assist this whole process of the
11 handing over of those suspected of committing war crimes to the Croatian
12 authorities and the others a few hours later to be bussed out to
13 respective communities or whatever through Republic of Croatia
14 On that evening - without going away from your question, but just
15 for a slight moment - there was discussion of adding on additional
16 numbers of males to the agreed 34, I think. That's a side issue. But as
17 they were going out, the males who were the alleged war crimes suspects,
18 quite rightly being handed over to the Croatian authorities to face the
19 evidence against them, I was quite astonished that the TV unit came
20 forward and filmed them very close up, face-on, as they went into the
21 doors of the buses.
22 I talked to EJ Flynn. We had the UN TV crew inside the gates,
23 and I decided to go with EJ, who as I understood it made representation
24 to General Cermak that this is not very helpful, polite. It was
25 insinuating by the camera, if this was broadcast, that these were, in
Page 6909
1 fact, guilty people. And I said, Okay, let's try to maybe remove the
2 cameras. The cameras, as were described, as I recall it, by General
3 Cermak, were for internal use or Croatian authority use only. I recall
4 seeing that this was not just the private or Croatian authority video
5 unit, but an emblem on the camera of a Croatian TV station. And that was
6 why I was not annoyed, but I just thought, Okay. Well, we can go and
7 film for our record of the UN on record on tape the UN TV's record of a
8 Croatian TV crew filming suspected war crimes suspects going on the bus.
9 And my colleagues from UN TV went and did this, it was all over
10 in about 20 seconds, and they came back inside the gates. As they came
11 back in inside, I recall that General Cermak was not entirely happy, to
12 put it politely, and did say to me words to the effect that this was seen
13 as provocation, was not helpful, and words were directed to me directly
14 in terms of my behaviour, to put it politely. I can say this. I can
15 understand it was a very pressurised moment, but I did not on the
16 specific issue think it right that the TV crew should film in the way
17 that it was, and this was the only reason I persuaded or suggested the UN
18 TV crew might film what was happening from inside the gates, and then to
19 go out and film by the bus doorway.
20 Q. So what purpose did your filming the Croatians serve? It's not
21 immediately apparent.
22 A. The filming stopped.
23 Q. What purpose --
24 A. The filming by the Croatian TV crew of those going through the
25 gates to the bus stopped shortly after the UN TV crew began filming them,
Page 6910
1 because it was a record of what I thought was in terms of the conduct of
2 a government authority to act properly at the time it was receiving
3 persons who had allegedly committed serious crimes, in this case war
4 crimes. But there is, I think, a professional conduct expected. And to
5 my mind and I know from my colleague EJ Flynn and from UNHCR colleagues
6 there at the gates, this was thought of as not being proper. And that
7 was the reason we did this with the UN TV. And UN TV inside the gates of
8 Sector South are entitled to film on UN property what was before them,
9 but they were not doing that until that moment.
10 Q. What's it for you to decide whether the Croatian government
11 should tape these steps or not? There are a number of readily apparent
12 reasons as to why suspects coming from the custody or coming from the
13 place of one party into the custody of another party may want to film
14 their condition, what they looked like, and their identities. Can't you
15 see that?
16 A. Oh, I can see it very well, sir, and I think that that kind of
17 behaviour, not just from myself but from others who have got more
18 expertise in international humanitarian law who were inside the UN Sector
19 South, not just Sector South personnel but those sent down from
20 headquarters Zagreb
21 step beyond what was appropriate behaviour. And in my experience later
22 in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the issue of war crimes suspects, I had never
23 seen or never saw that kind of behaviour again from a local TV crew in
24 the presence of their respective local or government authorities acting
25 in that way.
Page 6911
1 Q. Well, you don't know whether they were a local TV crew and you
2 don't know what purposes the recording was for, do you?
3 A. I would suspect, sir, that if it's a UN -- if it's a Croatian
4 television broadcasting company, that they are filming a report for what
5 would be news TV purposes. If they were going to be producing a film to
6 hand it over for the Croatian authorities, then one would suspect that
7 they are not a legitimate TV organization. But on the actual camera back
8 was the logo of a TV station.
9 Q. Did you ask? Did you ask?
10 A. Did I ask the TV crew?
11 Q. Did you ask why it was happening?
12 A. No, because there was a lot of activity at the front of the gates
13 and a very sensitive situation. I decided, once the actual situation had
14 subsided with the TV crew filming face on the faces of the people
15 entering the buses, that that had stopped. They moved away, they did not
16 seem angry with the UN TV crew or EJ Flynn or myself, and they just
17 stopped filming.
18 Q. And what was your business as a press and information officer to
19 start interfering in a delicately arranged matter between the United
20 Nations and the Croatian government?
21 A. Well, sir, I was not interfering, and that was not what I did on
22 that evening at all. The process by which long negotiations between the
23 Croatian government authorities and the UN mission at Zagreb
24 had concluded were ongoing. This is one particular specific incident
25 that occurred, and not only myself but others there from UN human rights,
Page 6912
1 from mission headquarters Zagreb
2 TV crew could have also been filming away what, I think, was quite a
3 sensitive situation did not do so because we thought it was quite
4 inappropriate to film and, therefore, stepped-up to make that small
5 gesture or shot at the time that they happened. It was all over within
6 about 20 seconds or less, as I stated in my statement of 1997.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, could we move on. We've now spent quite
8 some time on what moved, how one moved to film one way, and what moved
9 another one to film the ones filming.
10 MR. KAY: I agree, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And that seems not to be the core of this case.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. KAY:
14 Q. Were you aware, in fact, that the UNCRO had written to the
15 Ministry of Defence of the Government of Croatia, Exhibit D316, about the
16 transport of refugees being carried out in accordance with the UNCRO and
17 Sector South commander's plan and various international organizations
18 from Sector South and other agency took part. One of the key persons of
19 success of this mission was Colonel-General Cermak, liaison officers
20 Captain Lukovic, Mrsa, and Dondo. And General Cermak was congratulated
21 by Colonel Blahna for quick and professional arrangements.
22 A. Yes. I've seen this letter before and I've seen it now.
23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I've finished this matter, and I note the
24 time and rather than start a new subject.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 6913
1 Could the parties give any indication as to the time still needed
2 with Mr. Roberts.
3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I would have from my original time
4 estimate no longer than two hours before I finish.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The other Defence counsel.
6 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'll be up next and I will estimate
8 two hours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That makes four.
10 Mr. Misetic.
11 MR. MISETIC: Obviously, depending on what happens in front of
12 me, Judge, but I would say four.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean that it would take us two more days.
14 Mr. Roberts, did I hear a sigh or --
15 THE WITNESS: No, no, not at all. No, no.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's good.
17 We adjourn for the day. We will resume tomorrow morning, 9.00.
18 But I'd first like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone
19 about your testimony, whether the testimony you gave already today or
20 testimony still to be given in days to come.
21 Madam Registrar, we resume tomorrow at 9.00 in this same
22 courtroom?
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: It will be, unfortunately, in Courtroom II,
25 tomorrow, 9.00.
Page 6914
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of
3 July, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.
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