Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7022

 1                           Wednesday, 23 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honour, good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Good morning, Mr. Roberts.  I would like to remind you that you

13     are still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the

14     beginning of your testimony.

15             Are you ready Mr. Misetic to continue.

16             MR. MISETIC:  I am, Your Honours.  One housekeeping matter.  We

17     left yesterday with the exhibit 1D41-0043 and I would like to tender that

18     into evidence, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Mr. Waespi.

21             MR. WAESPI:  No objection.  Of course, this -- I'm not quite sure

22     what the documents are from although some other documents I think later

23     reveal that it was the Croatian authorities who seized these documents

24     or -- but some of them are not signed.  I think this specific one hasn't

25     been signed so there is some issue about reliability, but we don't

Page 7023

 1     object.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what you actually say is be careful but we do

 3     not object.  I mean, we're always careful, Mr. Waespi.  If there's a real

 4     issue about not being signed, then, of course, if there are no objections

 5     we will admit and then we will see what weight to give it.

 6             Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D702.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D702 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           WITNESS:  ALUN ROBERTS [Resumed]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

13        Q.   Good morning again, Mr. Roberts.

14        A.   Good morning.  Could I just one point of clarification.  I know

15     it is it not appropriate, but --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, it depends what you seek to be

17     clarified.

18             THE WITNESS:  Please advise me, Your Honour.  I'm in your hands.

19     In regard to the file of articles which I was given by Defence counsel I

20     was invited to review these and I did last night, and I've made my

21     responses and I can do them orally but I have also prepared a very small

22     brief and I've gone through every single article in the file and I have

23     colour coded them with my quotations and those of other UN senior

24     spokespersons and officials.  I would like to ask, if I can, to have this

25     file entered as my response with the memo in front of it which I can

Page 7024

 1     explain or would like to explain at the appropriate time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Misetic.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  My proposal, Your Honour, would be that Mr. Waespi

 5     and I during the next break take a look at the binder so that I could at

 6     least see what it is and then --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  -- ask questions about it in the next portion if

 9     necessary.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Or tender --

11             MR. MISETIC:  Or -- right.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, there is one thing, Mr. Misetic, you

13     asked the question.  You asked the witness to do something and to tell us

14     what he found.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So finally, under those circumstances, I would say,

17     whether it is in written form or in oral form, the Chamber is entitled to

18     receive a response to that question.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Absolutely, Your Honour.  I just would like to see,

20     what he said, some sort of writing, analysis or --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  What we'll do, Mr. Roberts, is that if

22     you would give a copy of your written response, so to say, to the

23     parties, they have a look at it and then they will see whether it is a

24     format in which the Chamber could receive your answers, and if not, then

25     Mr. Misetic will give you an opportunity to answer the question he

Page 7025

 1     yesterday put to you.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I understand.  I would like a chance to respond

 3     orally as well, but I'm in your hands.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, both I leave it to some extent in

 5     Mr. Misetic's hands.  He is limited in his time.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I understand.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have clearly answered the question, then I

 8     take it, Mr. Misetic, you'll give an opportunity to Mr. Roberts --

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to add whatever he wants to add --

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to his written answer.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.  Mr. Registrar, if I could call up

16     1D41-0401.  This is a video.

17        Q.   Mr. Roberts, this is a sort clip of the press conference held in

18     the ARSK headquarters with General Forand and yourself on the 4th of

19     August at around noon.  This is the press conference that you reference

20     in your statement.  Again, it is only a short portion of it; it is all we

21     have.  But I would like you to take a look at it, and I will ask you just

22     a few questions about.

23                           [Videotape played]

24             MR. MISETIC:

25        Q.   Mr. Roberts, does that video, at least those portions that we

Page 7026

 1     were able to see, accurately reflect part of the discussion at the press

 2     conference on the 4th of August, 1995?

 3        A.   Yes, it does.  Yeah.

 4        Q.   Do you recall General Forand talking about the UN troops being

 5     able to hold back the HV in certain portions?

 6        A.   I recalled some of what he said now, now that have I seen it

 7     again, that he said the very initial phases of the operation.  That was

 8     the Zone of Separation and the UN in the Zone of Separation largely he

 9     was referring to, and that was quite a big concern for the General in

10     terms of what was going on to the UN peacekeepers in the Zone of

11     Separation in the four battalion areas.

12        Q.   That press conference took place in the ARSK army headquarters.

13     Is that correct?

14        A.   I don't think so.  We went to the government building where the

15     press centre usually was at the back as a separate room but I think

16     everything in basic chaos.  We found ourselves I think in the ante-room

17     to the canteen/cafeteria area that is in the central lobby or was in the

18     central lobby of that main building downstairs.  You can see the boarded

19     up background and everything.  Yeah.  It was have very impromptu press

20     briefing bearing in mind the situation.

21        Q.   Were there armed ARSK soldiers in the vicinity of the place that

22     you were holding your press conference?

23        A.   I can't recall.  Everything was very much fluid.  It was not a

24     very long press briefing, but I don't recall that there were military

25     people running around.

Page 7027

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Can we show the video one more time.  If you could

 2     now --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, could you assist me.  This video was

 4     not shown to General Forand?

 5             MR. MISETIC:  We received the video within the last three days,

 6     Your Honour.  So I didn't have it at that time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that explains, because my question would have

 8     been it would not have been put to Mr. Forand.  But please proceed.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  If you could pay attention in the background there

10     and see if you can spot anyone with a weapon in the back.

11                           [Videotape played]

12             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go back a little bit.

13        Q.   Is that person carrying a rifle in the back?  It's a shadowy

14     figure, but do you see that?

15        A.   Coming in now.

16        Q.   Right above General Forand's head there.  There seems to be a

17     rifle or something there off to the left of the individual.  Directly

18     under the letter K if you --

19        A.   Yes, I'm looking.  I in honesty can't be sure.  I don't know what

20     people are seeing at the same time that I'm looking at this.  But I can't

21     recall from looking at it that it is, but you may have analysed it better

22     than me.  I don't know.  I didn't, from where I'm seated down on the seat

23     there, see anything behind me.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   I'm just looking at the same as all of us are.

Page 7028

 1             MR. MISETIC:  I thought maybe that would refresh your

 2     recollection.

 3             Your Honour, I would tender the video then into evidence, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, no objections.

 5             Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit D703, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D703 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Roberts, let me show you a few documents and, again, this is

10     in the interests of saving some time.  I will show you about three

11     documents and then ask you a few questions about it.

12             Before I do, on that video did you recognise who your interpreter

13     was there?

14        A.   Well, there is the interpreter I referred to yesterday in our

15     session, in the private session.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   Yeah.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D41-0024.

19        Q.   This is a document of the security department of the command of

20     the 7th corps of the ARSK.  Topic is Alun Roberts, spokesman,

21     Sector South command observations.  And then the first paragraph says:

22     The security department of the military department --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

24             MR. WAESPI:  I'm not sure whether we should go into private

25     session for this.  I can explain it briefly why I think it might be --

Page 7029

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 7030











11  Pages 7030-7031 redacted. Private session.















Page 7032

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24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 7033

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Roberts, let me say that we are now going to look through a

 5     series of documents seized by the Croatian government from ARSK

 6     intelligence services.  This is in line with operation Horizont, which we

 7     looked at yesterday towards the end of the day.  If names appear in these

 8     documents, you should be aware that that does not mean that the -- that

 9     the Trial Chamber has made a finding that the individuals referenced

10     there actually engaged in the activities referenced in the documents.

11     That will be a decision for the Trial Chamber to make at a later date.

12     And --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Reliability of these documents is a matter

14     still to be considered, but these documents apparently exist.  And

15     they -- Mr. Misetic will put some questions about.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Now, the document we have on the screen, Mr. Roberts, references

19     you at the top, the date is 14 December 1994.  And it says:  "The

20     security department of the military department, through the cooperation

21     with Agent Student, obtained certain materials regarding Rob

22     Henderson --"

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Information, it reads, Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.

25        Q.   "Certain information Rob Henderson, a Canadian, as well as

Page 7034

 1     materials, photocopied materials) that he found on Alun Roberts's table."

 2             And the bottom paragraph notes what the attachment is, which were

 3     documents found on Alun Roberts's table.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I could -- again, I'm going group

 5     these together so if I could tender this into evidence and get a D number

 6     for it?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D704.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D704 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D41-0032, please.

14        Q.   This is a document from the 24th of November, 1994.  The subject

15     is Kotil, Roberts, Stigner.  I don't know if I pronounced that correctly.

16     "Observation of their activities and then again the document references

17     the contact with the Agent Student, expanded its knowledge of activities

18     of Kotil, Roberts, and Stigner and other members of the UNPROFOR in the

19     newly emerged situation."

20             If you go down to the fourth paragraph:  "Alongside other

21     materials the agent submitted a letter sent by General Kotil to General

22     Ante Gotovina commending the latter for his cooperation in solving the

23     problem of the observation post in Crno by Zadar.

24              "The agent was instructed to continue his activities and to

25     report on significant events."

Page 7035

 1             Can we turn the page to this document, please?

 2        A.   Just to the end of the document, scroll up.  Yeah, thank you.

 3        Q.   Tell us when you're ready, Mr. Roberts.

 4        A.   I have finished with that document.

 5        Q.   I was waiting for you --

 6        A.   I'm sorry.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Can we have the next page in English, please.

 8        Q.   "The work method applied," on the bottom, "the object of the

 9     method of application, Kotil, Roberts and Stigner."

10             If we could go to the next page, please.  These are the actual

11     notes of the meeting with Agent Student.  You can take a look at it, if

12     you wish.  Talks about where you live, what you're doing.  I won't read

13     it.  I'll let you take a look.

14             Tell me when you're finished, Mr. Roberts.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I tender this document into evidence.

18             MR. TIEGER:  No objections, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit number D705, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D705 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D41-0040, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Roberts, I can imagine that you'd like to -- I

24     don't whether you can store all the information because the questions are

25     postponed until after we've seen all the documents.  If there would be

Page 7036

 1     any need for you to look at the documents, again I take it that there are

 2     hard copies available.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I'm fine.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   This a document 20 November 1994.  Cover sheet mentions again the

 7     meeting with Agent Student regarding the meeting between the commander of

 8     the 7th Corps and HV General Gotovina which was also attended by the

 9     commander of Sector South.  Cover page asks or says that the agent,

10     meaning Agent Student was instructed to monitor the activities of

11     UNPROFOR and any indicators of possible Ustasha aggression against the

12     RSK.

13             If we could go to the third page of this document, please.

14        A.   Let me read the first paragraph.

15        Q.   Sure.  Again just tell me when you're finished.

16        A.   Yeah.

17             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to the third page of this document,

18     please.

19        Q.   These are the actual explanation or notes of the meeting with

20     Agent Student.

21             Second paragraph:  "On 18 November 1994, I held a special meeting

22     with Agent Student, due to the fact that we needed to urgently

23     investigate an important document.

24              "At the aforementioned meeting which was held in Zemunik, our

25     agent arrived with Alun Roberts."

Page 7037

 1             Now first let me just ask you, Zemunik, just for the Trial

 2     Chamber, was in Croatian-held territory.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Zemunik was the crossing point -- one of the crossing points that

 4     was an official crossing point between the internal sector to go across

 5     the Zone of Separation to what we can say is -- was then Croatian

 6     territory proper and proceed on to various cities, towns in Croatia

 7     proper at that time.  You come back through that if you're going into

 8     Zadar, for example.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Can you read the rest of the paragraph but just I will

10     read out the fourth paragraph:  "Our agent wasn't able to hear the

11     separate conversation between General Kotil and General Gotovina because

12     he was, most of the time, at the side of Alun Robertson," should be Alun

13     Roberts, "as his interpreter."

14             Then it says:  "Upon returning from Zemunik to Knin our agent was

15     able to take off from the fax machine at the southern camp the letter of

16     De Laprel for President Martic."

17             Tell me when you're finished reading the document, sir.

18        A.   Just for the Court Chamber, I think either you, sir, or me should

19     make maybe some references to who these other people are and the fact

20     that they are UN personnel that are referred to in various places there

21     in the last paragraph, not that they're international organisations.

22     They're UN officials.

23             Yes, okay.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Roberts, I'll stop here and ask you some questions.

25             Were you aware that you were attending official meetings with

Page 7038

 1     interpreters who were in fact agents, intelligence agents of the ARSK?

 2        A.   Could I ask that in order to give a full reply we go into private

 3     session or -- I'm in the hands of the --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour --

 5        A.   I have to refer to names.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we turn into private session in which you can

 7     explain why you consider it necessary to go into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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Page 7039











11  Pages 7039-7040 redacted. Private session.















Page 7041

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16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, first may I -- am I allowed to put to

21     the witness what he has just said in terms of the conversation that was

22     described?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If you'd briefly summarize that and in as neutral

24     wording as possible, then there's no problem with that.

25             MR. MISETIC:

Page 7042

 1        Q.   Mr. Roberts, I think while we were in private session you said

 2     that the Agent Student, you believe to be an individual named Predrag

 3     Sare and that Mr. Sare at some point advised you and other members of the

 4     UN in Sector South that he in fact was being pressured to provide

 5     intelligence -- pressured by the Serb authorities to provide intelligence

 6     information to their intelligence services.

 7             Have I accurately summarized what you have stated?  And if I

 8     haven't, please clarify.

 9        A.   I can go into this -- I'm also aware that we're in open session

10     and that we're now going to say about this person, I'm clearly sure is

11     going to jeopardize not just reputation, but future activities in a very

12     definite sense, but if that's on the record and I'm advised I must reply,

13     then, fine.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course the Chamber will also consider

15     justified concerns for the safety and security of witnesses.  We have

16     protective measures for that.  However, in the present situation we're

17     now talking about, apparently, of course, we would have to hear all of

18     the evidence, but apparently not talking about people's -- people being

19     victimised and people being exposed to threats or threats against the

20     welfare of themselves or their families because they testify, but for

21     totally different reasons, the Chamber, at this moment, sees no reason to

22     specifically protect the persons in relation to which questions will be

23     put.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

25             THE WITNESS:  The person named as the interpreter, Mr. Sare, as I

Page 7043

 1     said in answer to the question, yes, he had come to the UN and confessed

 2     these so-called pressures that he was passing information to the

 3     authorities in Knin.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.   So would it fair to say then -- first can you give us a date.

 6     When did he have this conversation with you?

 7        A.   It was about this time, as far as I can recall.  It was not only

 8     with me.  I think that it was also prior to that with other UN officials

 9     in Sector South.

10        Q.   So when you "this time," you're referring to November and

11     December 1994?

12        A.   I can't be exact.  I'm just looking at the dates of this

13     correspondence and the activities of the UN.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, winter of 1994?

15        A.   Approximately like that, yes.  It was towards the end of that

16     year, maybe something like that.

17        Q.   Now, yesterday we went through the UN peacekeeping manual for

18     public information.  One of the rules was UN needs to maintain

19     impartiality particularly with its local staff, yet you after being

20     advised by Mr. Sare in the winter of 1994 that he was being pressured to

21     and in fact had passed information to RSK intelligence, you continued to

22     employ him as your interpreter, including at official meetings with

23     General Gotovina.  Is that correct?

24        A.   No, that is not correct.  I, first of all, do not employ, as I

25     understand the crux of your question, recruit or employ people.  That's

Page 7044

 1     the UN personnel's department.  He was not an interpreter specifically

 2     for the press office.  I explained he was also a -- an interpreter,

 3     sorry, for the other departments of the UN in Sector South, the civil

 4     affairs department, humanitarian department and occasionally for the

 5     sector commander.

 6        Q.   Well --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 8     question and answer, thank you.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   You utilized him as your interpreter even -- oh, sorry.  Even

11     after you found out that he was passing information, you personally

12     continued to utilize him as your interpreter.  Correct?

13        A.   I used him on occasions, but I also more frequently used other

14     interpreters who were available to me.

15        Q.   Well --

16        A.   And could I add on that same point, that I understand the thrust

17     of this is being put to me as the public information officer.  Again,

18     this was discussed by senior officials in headquarters Sector South

19     outside of my knowledge, and he continued as an interpreter on the role

20     of the interpreter's pool in Sector South headquarters at that time,

21     attending not only information meetings but also was thought okay to

22     attend political meetings with the RSK authorities on UN matters.

23        Q.   Well, Mr. Roberts --

24             MR. MISETIC:  First can I tender this document.  In light of this

25     question, I have to move on to a separate document to show the witness,

Page 7045

 1     but I tender this document into evidence that's on the screen.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit number D706, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D706 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. MISETIC:

 8        Q.   Mr. Roberts, let me take you to 65 ter 4044.

 9             This is a document tendered by the Prosecution into evidence.

10     You will recognise this report.  This is the report of 9 August 1995 in

11     which you, amongst other things, in great detail describe the incident

12     with the interpreter when he went back to his apartment.

13             Now if we could turn the page, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, the date, as a matter of fact, I don't

15     know whether it has been an attempt to highlight by a marker or something

16     like that, but the date --

17             MR. MISETIC:  In the upper right-hand corner, Your Honour, and it

18     has been produced by the Prosecution as having been written on the 9th of

19     August, but in the upper right-hand corner there's a fax date of 9

20     August 1995.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I will have a look at it.

22             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, this is correct.  I don't think it is an

23     exhibit yet.  It is it part of our motion to admit it via this witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And --

25             MR. MISETIC:  I just said it was tendered.  I know it's awaiting

Page 7046

 1     whether it is going to be admitted or not, but ... on the second page,

 2     Your Honour, you can also see the fax line, and the incident itself, I

 3     believe occurred on the 9th of August so ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Just for us -- just for you to know that we

 5     have difficulties in reading what appears after Wednesday and of course

 6     we may have other -- the problem is that as far as the fax is concerned,

 7     that not the whole of the --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  The next page has the year.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

10             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 2 please.

11        Q.   Now you're writing this memo to Filip Arnold, who is the

12     UNCRO/UNPROFOR spokesman in Zagreb, correct?

13        A.   Chief spokesperson in the nation at the time of Operation Storm,

14     yes.

15        Q.   And when you're righting this, you're aware that part of the

16     purpose of writing this to Mr. Arnold as the spokesman is so that he can,

17     if necessary, put this information out into the international community.

18     Correct.

19        A.   No.  That was not the precise purpose.  Otherwise, I would have

20     suggested a press line for that particular thing, which was the normal

21     practice if I was suggesting an incident deserved comment by the chief

22     spokesperson at the press briefing.  I would usually suggest a press line

23     and they would take it or not.  This was just to -- essentially to inform

24     of what had happened on that particular day.

25             There was a separate report sent, by the way, from the civil

Page 7047

 1     affairs office to, I think the SRSG.

 2        Q.   If we could look at paragraph 8.

 3             "On first time visits to Knin yesterday, local Serb interpreters

 4     who accompanied UN personnel reported being intimidated.  The worst

 5     example was that of a long-time and distinguished civil affairs

 6     interpreter."

 7             Now, you're writing to Mr. Arnold approximately eight months

 8     after you discovered that Mr. Sare is passing information, whether under

 9     pressure or not, and you write to Mr. Arnold and describe him as a

10     long-time and distinguished civil affairs interpreter?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Do you think that was a full and complete description to

13     Mr. Arnold of what the situation really was?

14        A.   Now for some background information, if I may.

15        Q.   Well, let me take the Trial Chamber --

16        A.   You did ask me a question --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I think the witness may --

18             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- answer the question if he thinks that some

20     background information would clarify the matter.

21             Mr. Roberts, could you try to be brief as to the background and

22     focus on the foreground.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  In reference to the word "distinguished civil

24     affairs interpreter," and long-time, he had been there since, I think,

25     the early part of the mission, 1992/1993 in various periods.  I know he

Page 7048

 1     had been assaulted by elements of the so-called RSK paramilitary on one

 2     occasion with me and other UN personnel.  We were hijacked at gunpoint by

 3     unknown but believed to be with RSK paramilitary vehicle stolen and

 4     assaulted and had also been in areas near the front line in very

 5     difficult and dangerous situations before the cease-fire agreement.

 6             So that's in there for background reference.  And we can now

 7     continue.  That's the background.  The Court can take it for its own

 8     consideration.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now the question, because you gave a bit

10     of the background -- the question was whether you thought that this was a

11     full and complete description to Mr. Arnold of what the situation really

12     was.  You have emphasised, apparently, the difficulties the interpreter

13     had undergone, but that was not the gist of the question by Mr. Misetic

14     and you have made note of that.

15             THE WITNESS:  Right, I understand.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The question simply is wouldn't it not have been

17     appropriate to describe him in other terms as well.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I understand, I accept that.

19             At the time I thought it was not inappropriate from the situation

20     to use those words, and in reference to the actual confession if that had

21     been passed on to the then chief spokesperson prior to Mr. Arnold.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the question is you could have limited

25     yourself also to an interpreter, which would have not be -- which would

Page 7049

 1     not have been very complete information but, at the same time, it would

 2     not have -- unbalanced information you just referred to his work, his

 3     job.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I understand, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   I have actually more concerns than simply in addition to how you

 8     described them.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can turn the page, please.

10        Q.   It goes what you're actually describing happened.

11             If we could go to paragraph 13.

12             Now, you have already described in prior paragraphs the tense

13     situation.  You say:  "One of the soldiers," meaning HV "then went back

14     into the building.  A short time later he emerged with a paper.  This was

15     pushed in PIO's face and told, in so many words, this has RSK army stamp.

16     This man's name, he is war crime, you give now."

17             If we go to the next page, which is the second portion of

18     paragraph 16.

19             It would appear that Mr. Sare had in fact taken something out of

20     the apartment.

21             MR. MISETIC:  If we could scroll up the English page, please.

22        Q.   Now, in the middle there of that top paragraph:  "In addition,

23     photographs were removed from his possessions, one with his brother years

24     ago, showing two young men in plain green uniform dress."

25             Now, Mr. Roberts, I put it to you that Predrag Sare went back to

Page 7050

 1     his apartment to get documents out of his apartment before the HV

 2     arrived.  Isn't that what really happened?

 3        A.   Well, we went back to inspect the accommodation of several staff

 4     and we were with the interpreter, myself and another UN international

 5     employee, and he was in the apartment very briefly and we were with him,

 6     and it was basically, as far as we could see, an inspection of what was

 7     already a looted apartment with possessions and objects strewn around,

 8     and I can't be clear that in the time we had before Croatian soldiers

 9     came in and intervened and seemed to know who he was, that this assault

10     situation began.

11             I'm pretty sure we did not leave him alone to collect or get

12     things from any drawers.  We were all there in the apartment together.

13        Q.   Well, I turn your attention then to paragraph 9 of your own

14     report on the screen, which is page 2 of this document.

15             Paragraph 9:  "As the PIO and civil affairs officer left the

16     apartment block with the interpreter still inside, they were challenged

17     in a very threatening manner on why they were there."

18             So apparently, sir, there was a time when you left the apartment

19     and left Predrag in the apartment by himself.  Isn't that correct?

20        A.   We had gone down the stairs and he was still inside the apartment

21     block but not far behind us.  I don't think we had left him at all in the

22     apartment on his own.  It was then that we were challenged by the

23     Croatian soldiers as they came in, but, at that time, I don't think the

24     interpreter was still left alone sorting things in the apartment.  We had

25     come down together but we were ahead of him.

Page 7051

 1        Q.   Well, if you left the apartment block, you left him inside --

 2        A.   Well, there is an interpretation here, I think, in terms of

 3     inside the apartment itself and inside the apartment block, and I have

 4     said as we came out of the apartment block I recall we had gone down

 5     ahead.

 6             So, yes, for a moment or two he was behind us and still in the

 7     actual apartment itself as we had gone down maybe two flights of stairs.

 8        Q.   Mr. Roberts, you know that Predrag Sare went into that apartment

 9     looking to retrieve documents before the HV arrived.  Isn't that correct?

10        A.   No, I do not know that, and the observation of myself and the

11     other international interpreter was that it was found to be in a complete

12     disarray and a mess.  I don't recall that he had time or sufficient

13     opportunity to really go through things or conceal that he was obtaining

14     information or documents from us.  We were still inside the actual

15     apartment itself.

16        Q.   Now, we've already noted that you said a photograph was removed

17     from his possession, a photograph was one with his brother years ago

18     showing two young men in plain green uniform dress?

19             Who is Predrag Sare's brother?

20        A.   Well, I don't -- I didn't meet his brother.  I know his brother

21     was something in terms of a -- a special unit.  That's about all I know

22     and I know that as far as family went, from what I was told and

23     understood, they were not close but that's for the -- for consideration.

24     But I know that he had photographs of all his family.

25        Q.   You know they were twins.  Correct?

Page 7052

 1        A.   I believe that they were, but I don't think that it was something

 2     that was known to me at that time.

 3        Q.   You also are very well aware, Mr. Roberts, that Predrag Sare's

 4     twin brother Nenad was one of Milosevic's assassins.  Isn't that correct?

 5        A.   One of Milosevic's.

 6        Q.   Let's take a look at that.  I'm surprised that --

 7        A.   You're saying Mr. Milosevic -- I think you mean --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please clarify what you mean by Milosevic

 9     assassins.

10             MR. WAESPI:  Perhaps also the relevancy of this issue.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, it's relevant.  There is an issue of

12     bias that the witness has put forward that this individual was doing

13     things unwillingly because of threats by RSK personnel and I'm going to

14     go into this person's connection with certain high levels in addition to

15     his connection as an interpreter for other high-level Serbian

16     officials --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

19        Q.   Sir, let me show you 1D41-0345.

20             This is an Agence France-Presse article of September 22nd, 2004,

21     describing the trial of Milorad Ulemovic [phoen] Legija in Belgrade for

22     the assassination of Serbian ex-president Ivan Stambolic.  You will note

23     in paragraph 2 Judge Dragoljub Albijanic said protected witness Nenad

24     Sare will testify in camera in the proceedings resumed in a high-security

25     court for organised crime.

Page 7053

 1              "A former secret police agent, Sare has reportedly confessed to

 2     participating in the operation --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, of course, everything comes as entirely

 4     new to us.  Apparently from this newspaper article it appears that

 5     testimony has been given in camera.  Now it is known to many judges in

 6     this Tribunal that sometimes secrets are published in newspapers despite

 7     orders not to publish matters.  I'm not aware of whether what follows in

 8     this is in violation of any order.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  I believe, Your Honour, and as an officer of the

10     Court I can tell that you I have researched the issue and Serbian

11     authority have very much emphasised Nenad Sare because he is the person

12     who actually led them to the body of Ivan Stambolic, and so it's not a --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I just wanted to make sure that not only in

14     this courtroom where confidentiality is treated as an important matter,

15     that in this same courtroom we would violate confidentiality rules.  I

16     have not researched the background.  I then rely upon you as an officer

17     of the court not to make any mistakes.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   "Sare has reportedly confessed to participating in the operation

22     to kidnap and murder Stambolic, the president of the Balkan republic from

23     1986 to 19887.

24              "He led police to a mountain north of Belgrade where Stambolic's

25     remains were found last year, almost four years after the former

Page 7054

 1     president disappeared from a park in the Serbian capital."

 2             Let me show you several exhibits again and then we can ask some

 3     questions.

 4             Your Honour, I tender this document into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  I doubt the relevancy but I have no objections.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D707, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D707 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could now call up 1D41-0060.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, of course, this whole matter, I do

12     understand that you're challenging the reliability and credibility of

13     this witness.  That may not come as a surprise to Mr. Roberts either.  Of

14     course, to highlight the whole background is -- could be relevant.  At

15     the same time, of course, the first issue or the last issue would be to

16     what extent the witness was aware of these kind of things, and if just to

17     highlight all of this and then to, at the end, find out that the witness

18     was not aware, that of course doesn't make much sense because then it

19     might still be relevant but not in relation to this witness, who may have

20     been, I'm not saying he was, but may have been mislead about matters.

21             MR. MISETIC:  But it's not only bias and credibility of this

22     witness.  Your Honour, I will to address that concern move from this

23     document right to the next document to show you what the other issue is.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Then I will go very quickly through this -- not

Page 7055

 1     even through this.  If you can take a look at it quickly, Mr. Roberts,

 2     but essentially at the bottom of this page, talks about Ulemek passing an

 3     order to a criminal group consisting of state officials with the JSO,

 4     identifies the people and the next page says accomplice Nenad Sare.

 5             Rather than take more time on it then, Your Honour, I will tender

 6     that into evidence and proceed to the next document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit D708, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D708 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I may have 1D41-0376, please.

14        Q.   This is HRAT compilation of statements taken from witnesses in

15     the camp.

16             Now, Mr. Roberts, you testified earlier this week that part of

17     your own reports were based on UN CIVPOL reports of interviews taken with

18     some of the people in the camp.  Correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  If I would ask you to -- if I could just ask the registrar

21     to flip through every page of these statements perhaps we could not

22     publish it so that the witness's names don't appear.  But --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The document, the following page is not to be shown

24     to the public.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

Page 7056

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And the documents later to be tendered under seal as

 2     a whole, although the first page doesn't --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Correct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- harm.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we could flip through every page and note who

 7     the interpreter is for these witness statements.

 8             I don't know how far along we are.

 9        Q.   But I think, Mr. Roberts, you understand the point.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes, I understand the point, yes.

11             MR. MISETIC:  I tender the document into evidence, Your Honours,

12     for the purpose of showing Mr. Sare's involvement in the drafting of the

13     statements.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps also to -- of course we could read

15     that but I thought that except for three --

16             MR. MISETIC:  I'm going to ask him some questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  D709, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D709 is admitted into evidence.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. MISETIC:  First again as a background question so I don't

24     have to go through it, when Mr. Sare was confessing his passing

25     information, did he also acknowledge to you that he been General Ratko

Page 7057

 1     Mladic's interpreter in the early part of the war?

 2        A.   I think that was not only known to me but to other senior members

 3     of the UN before I even came to Sector South.  I recall being told that

 4     not by the person concerned but I think by people from Sector South --

 5     Sector South commander's office when I arrived there, that he had -- he

 6     worked there and I think that is on his employment application or CV,

 7     submitted by him to the UN in terms of him being an interpreter at the

 8     headquarters of the government building in the -- in the Krajina.

 9        Q.   Did Mr. EJ Flynn, Ms. Grace Kang, some of these other people that

10     worked for HRAT, they came into the theatre in August, and my question to

11     you is did you advise them that the interpreter that they were working

12     with had, A, told you that he had previously been passing information to

13     the Serb authorities; and B, was the former translator for General

14     Mladic?

15        A.   I had advised them -- I'm not sure Grace, but I advised EJ in

16     terms of the background to the whole thing in terms of confession, the UN

17     decision, which was not mine, but personnel that this was known and he

18     was continued in employment of the UN after the time he made that

19     statement to the UN officials.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was twofold.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did brief them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you paid attention only to could I say the

23     confession and not to the previous position as Mr. Mladic's interpreter.

24             THE WITNESS:  I didn't say that I explained the whole thing of

25     the most important thing for me was to brief in terms of the UN --

Page 7058

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What is important you informed them about the

 2     first issue and not about the second.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Let me take you to two additional points before the break.

 7             Your 1997 statement, P675, paragraph 42.  This is now discussing

 8     the alleged threat by General Gotovina against you.  And it says:  "UN

 9     officials that he wanted General Forand to know that, inter alia, we

10     consider Alun Roberts as a spy and that regardless of what he is doing,

11     if he is seen on the streets, he could be eliminated, his further safety

12     cannot be guaranteed ... General Forand told me later that in his mind,

13     he could not be sure but it seemed a clear threat."

14             And if we could pull up, please, 1D41-0367.

15             This is a -- this is a handwritten diary provided to the Office

16     of the Prosecutor by an ECMM official named Soren Liborius.  Do you

17     recall Mr. Liborius?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. MISETIC:  We received this over the weekend, Your Honour, so

21     we're not able, I don't believe to do a B/C/S translation.  But I will

22     read it out to you.

23        Q.   It is Mr. Laborious's entry from 6 September which, is the day

24     after the meeting between General Forand and General Gotovina, and he

25     says:  "Meet General Gotovina, sector commander, 5 September 1995.

Page 7059

 1     General Got," which I assume is Gotovina, "PIO accused of spying,

 2     disinformation and sufficient for a case in court.  PIO, Gotovina very

 3     emotional during meeting."

 4             My question to you is, "the PIO:" At the bottom to me would

 5     indicate that this is a conversation or information that is being passed

 6     to Mr. Liborius from you, and in your own 1997 statement you make

 7     reference to the fact that General Forand said he could not be sure.  My

 8     question to you is do you recall having a conversation with Soren

 9     Liborius on the 6th, where what you said was that Gotovina had accused

10     you of spying and disinformation and that there was sufficient evidence

11     for a case in court against you?

12        A.   Well, I do not recognise this at all as my note, at all.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it is not said that this was your note, but

14     that since PIO appears on the fourth line as perhaps the source of what

15     Mr. Liborius did write down.

16             THE WITNESS:  No, absolutely not.  I did not recall at all having

17     a meeting with ECMM, Mr. Liborius on the 6th of September, no.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I tender the document into evidence

19     and I think it is a good time for a break as I will be shifting subjects.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

21             MR. WAESPI:  No objections and Mr. Liborius will come to testify.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D710.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D710 is admitted into evidence.

25             Mr. Misetic, could you give us an impression on how long you're

Page 7060

 1     two hours are --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Two hours and 55 minutes left, but I will try to

 3     finish by -- sorry, Your Honour.

 4             I will try to finish by the second break.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Waespi, would that be sufficient for

 6     re-examination?

 7             MR. WAESPI:  So far I need about ten minutes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  About ten minutes.

 9             Then we will have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to

10     11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I again have to apologise on behalf of the Chamber

14     for the late start.

15             Mr. Misetic, you may continue.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Roberts, let's turn our attention to the 4th of August, 1995.

18     And you have given some testimony here about what you observed on the

19     morning of the 4th.

20             Now, is it fair to say that your observations consist of what you

21     saw on the balcony of your apartment in the morning of the 4th as well as

22     what you saw on the balcony of UN headquarters when you arrived in

23     Sector South headquarters?

24        A.   That's a fair assessment, yes.

25        Q.   Now I note in your 7 February 2008 statement at page 3, paragraph

Page 7061

 1     8 you say, I was on the balcony for about ten minutes.  Is that accurate?

 2     Sorry.  Just to be accurate, when I say balcony, I meant the balcony of

 3     your apartment.

 4        A.   Yes.  Ten minutes at one particular time, not just for only one

 5     occasion only for ten minutes.

 6        Q.   How much time in total did you spend on the balcony of your

 7     apartment on the morning of the 4th?

 8        A.   To describe it, maybe three or four occasions very briefly, and

 9     one occasion, maybe four or five minutes, and one occasion, ten minutes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You state in 1998, page 4, that from your

11     observations you concluded that about 200 civilian locations were hit

12     during the shelling which included roofs that were damaged.  Is that

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You say in 2007 at page 5 at 28 February 2007, in later weeks

16     this was confirmed by my regular journeys into town where I could see

17     damage to the rooftops of what were civilian buildings in several

18     different parts of the town.  None of these buildings were near RSK

19     government, military, or police locations.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Ask am I supposed to be seeing on the screen here the statement

21     or not, because I'm not seeing anything.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It could be shown to you or a hard copy could be

23     given to the witness if there's one available.  But perhaps as we

24     could -- as soon as Mr. Misetic gives the P number, then the registrar

25     usually shows it on the screen.

Page 7062

 1             MR. MISETIC:  P677.  Page 5, please.

 2        Q.   At the top of the page.  Do you see that sentence:  "In later

 3     weeks this was confirmed."

 4        A.   I'm not getting the top paragraph, I think.

 5        Q.   It is right in the middle of that top, continued paragraph from

 6     the previous page right in the middle there's a sentence that starts:

 7     "In later weeks this was confirmed by my regular journeys ..."

 8        A.   Yes, I see it.

 9        Q.   So is that accurate?

10        A.   In later weeks, driving around town, yeah, in -- yes.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, could we call up Exhibit D276,

12     please.  Oh, yes, I'm sorry.

13        Q.   This is a video, a panoramic.  You will see a video from 5

14     August 1995.  And I'd ask you to take a look at the video and point out

15     where the roof damage was the greatest in your trips out of Knin in the

16     weeks after Operation Storm.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             THE WITNESS:  Well, we haven't got the whole of Knin there by any

19     means.  But buildings in the centre of town, I have provided a sketch map

20     of buildings I saw hit.  Apartment blocks to the centre, I mean, I can't

21     with this photograph here pick out a broad dimension of Knin.  It would

22     have to be more detailed than that in terms of streets and so on.  If

23     that's possible, I don't know, but can I point out on here what I saw

24     that are not, to my mind, military buildings.

25             MR. MISETIC:

Page 7063

 1        Q.   Well --

 2        A.   Can --

 3        Q.   Did you see any of the buildings in the areas that are depicted

 4     in this video?

 5        A.   Yes.  Behind the -- the gentleman, there are houses on a dirt

 6     road that were hit.  They were buildings on the roads that were going

 7     down from the top of the fortress that were civilian that I saw hit.

 8        Q.   So --

 9        A.   Sorry.

10        Q.   I'm pausing because of the interpreters.

11             Are you saying that you saw them in the video or are you saying

12     you saw them even though they're not in the video?

13        A.   I thought the question was in your trips around town later weeks,

14     you suggest or point out from this video the apartment buildings or the

15     areas mainly that you saw hit.

16        Q.   Yes, that's fine.  Then so, first, let me ask you, did you see

17     any of those buildings in this video?

18        A.   Rough general areas, yes, can I say that --

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   But it has to go more slowly I think in terms of that, and this

21     is with all fairness a portion of the town and quite a short video-clip,

22     but I -- run it again, perhaps, I don't know.

23        Q.   What we'll do is we'll run the video and we'll pause it in the

24     various sections of town as they come on the screen, and then you can

25     tell us roughly where you believe there was roof damage.

Page 7064

 1                           [Videotape played]

 2        A.   Well, down from the [indiscernible] there is a dirt road running

 3     down here and off camera.  Houses were hit --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Can I ask the usher -- can he point on the video?

 5     No?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But I think the cursor could be --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, that's what I meant.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- moved.  That means no marking but -- and then of

 9     course for the record we have to describe it.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

11        Q.   Go ahead and --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So what we see now is the dirt road that's described

13     by the witness below the wall not visible on this video image.  Is that

14     correct?

15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, you would have to move the -- this

16     frame to the left so that the right-hand edge is further to show more,

17     maybe, but you can't see down on that dirt road and on those houses which

18     is just one section.

19             MR. MISETIC:  For the record, this is the still at 04 seconds on

20     the video.

21                           [Videotape played]

22             THE WITNESS:  Well, it is it behind -- well, along this street

23     here this is behind the RSK buildings, but you have do go again at a

24     different angle, but I pointed out one map, I think it is it to the --

25     beyond this building here, one --

Page 7065

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  This building here, could you please tell us what

 2     this building here is?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  To the left I think you go further left down

 4     that street.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Play the video.

 6                           [Videotape played]

 7             MR. MISETIC:

 8        Q.   Do you see the building now?

 9        A.   I have been more precise on an aerial shot that was shown

10     earlier, but there is a building in this row was hit by the side shelling

11     but I can't pick it out of your -- on this, whether it is the actual real

12     street.  We did this with the investigation of a quite wider shot of the

13     centre part of town and picked out that building.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When you say "this row of buildings," you're

15     referring to what apparently is a street going from the left side at

16     approximately 50 per cent of the eighth of the picture to the right side

17     approximately 30 per cent of the eighth of the picture.  Is that correct?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is but I don't think it is possible to pull

19     back so that you can get --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  This is video images which are not -- cannot be

21     manipulated at this moment.  We can follow it, we can look at it, but

22     that's all.

23             THE WITNESS:  To my mind if we're pointing, this building here

24     appears to be the same one that I've marked on the specific map exhibit

25     given to the -- to the statement, but I'm not exactly sure this is the

Page 7066

 1     precise one because I need to see the whole length of this area.  But

 2     it's of this area here.

 3             MR. MISETIC:

 4        Q.   Is that the building that you're pointing to?

 5        A.   No.  I'm pointing along here.  I'm saying in all honesty, looking

 6     at the video-clip, I apologise, but I don't think it is possible to pick

 7     out precisely that this was the building.  I have been quite I think

 8     specific on in the earlier exhibit.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness is -- I'm afraid that one has to

10     review -- no, the problem is that the cursor is not part of the evidence;

11     it's just the description.

12             The witness started pointing at a building, which is in the left

13     lower corner of what seems to be a sports complex but then opposite side

14     of the road with a white element in the roof structure, then moved a

15     little bit to the right bottom direction where a structure can be seen in

16     the midst of some green, and then moved a little bit further up higher to

17     the right, where do I say, series of roofs which are not very good

18     visible.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  And for the record this is at the 15-second

21     still on this video-clip.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, Mr. Misetic.  Please proceed.

23                           [Videotape played]

24             THE WITNESS:  I would have to say this is possible but this is

25     showing a fragment of Knin in the centre from the very high-up elevation

Page 7067

 1     of the castle and --

 2             Well, you can't see it again, I'm afraid, but if you go behind

 3     these buildings where I'm pointing with my finger, if the cursor can come

 4     up, and again, I have seen other, forgive me, better aerial views of

 5     Knin, and I'm not wanting, Your Honour, in any way to go and put my

 6     finger on an area which puts like three rooftops in question when we're

 7     trying to be quite careful in saying, Well, this was three rooftops I saw

 8     together, that is not exact, I don't think.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness now with the cursor pointed at the

10     whitish --

11             THE WITNESS:  It is pointed at a roof but I'm looking at the

12     actual gap between the roof and a street area which we can't see on

13     this --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Roberts, if you have difficulties in identifying

15     the roofs, then please tell us, if these were -- is one of the areas

16     where the roofs were damaged.

17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I would have to look left to get a

18     better bearing, if that is the street concerned that I'm interested in.

19     I'm sorry.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Let me play it and see if it goes farther left.

21     This is, by the way, for the record this conversation took place at the

22     19-second mark of this video.

23             Does that assist you, Mr. Roberts?  We're now at the 20-second

24     mark on the video.

25        A.   Yeah, a little bit.  Judging by the edge of the fortress, it's

Page 7068

 1     buildings, if I recall, through this gap here that, again, are blocked by

 2     this building here further down.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's it.

 4        A.   I have to say, for the record, I'm sorry, Your Honour, but we're

 5     talking about a very important issue, obviously.  We're looking down from

 6     a very steep elevation, and only when you're travelling up or going from

 7     street to street are you going to be able to sort of spot on a proper way

 8     tops of buildings or damage to the side that can you see that I don't, in

 9     all honesty, believe that you can depict from this kind of video, and

10     that's not trying to avert -- and we're in the centre of Knin as well,

11     which was the main focus, I know, of a lot of media and a lot of

12     attention.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, we --

14             MR. MISETIC:

15        Q.   Mr. Roberts, is it fair to say that based on this video you can't

16     by looking at this video identify any specific buildings that were hit by

17     shelling -- roofs, I should say that you were hit by shelling?

18        A.   I can give general areas, but I'm not a hundred percent sure that

19     they really would be in those areas or the buildings concerned.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  But that is now -- I mean the purpose of this

21     exercise is whether the pictures support your statement about what areas

22     you found damage to roofs, and now to say, I could indicate the areas on

23     the basis of these pictures, not by pointing at roof damage but just as

24     the areas doesn't add anything to the testimony or to the statement given

25     by the witness.  So, I think that's a --

Page 7069

 1             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.  We'll move on, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, in your statements you said that your conclusions on the

 5     shelling were based also on information that you received from other UN

 6     sources.  And at your 1998 statement, which is P676 at page 5 you say, at

 7     the very top of the page, fifth line down:  "About an hour later, when I

 8     called back to the UNMO office, two of the duty officers said that from

 9     their assessment of the bombardment that hit Knin they assessed that

10     between around 0500 hours and about 0800 hours, around 1100 shells had

11     targeted Knin."

12             Do you recall the names of the two UNMO officers who gave you

13     this information?

14        A.   I don't, no, recall those names.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, can I call up exhibit P101, please.

16        Q.   This is an UNMO report filed by UNMO HQ Sector South on 4

17     August at 1205.  It says in the very first paragraph:  "HV shelling on

18     Knin started at 0500 Bravo, August, and continued up to 1040 Bravo,

19     August 1995.  Total around 350 to 400 artillery MBRL rocket fire were

20     heard by the UNMOs in Knin."

21             Did you receive this report as part of your duties on the day of

22     4 August 1995 as the PIO who was communicating with the international

23     press?

24        A.   I have seen this document, and my response on seeing this was to

25     go back to ask what it meant on the third line down there:  "Total around

Page 7070

 1     350 to 400 RT/MRBL/rocket fire were heard by the UNMOs in Knin," and I

 2     wanted to know that in terms of, okay, we've had a conversation a large

 3     number of assessment had been told me, are we talking about hearing or

 4     seeing or generalist estimation, but this was sent as the position of

 5     hearing what was the position of UNMOs in Knin.

 6        Q.   So was it based on the fact that you received on a regular basis

 7     UNMO reports, was it standard for UNMO to report something like having

 8     heard shell fire but leave out of an UNMO report the fact that they had

 9     seen -- seen several hundred more artillery impacts in town?  Would that

10     have been common practice by UNMOs?

11        A.   I would go -- no, no it's not.  I would go always by what is

12     written on paper, even if someone told me, Alun, to the best of my

13     ability, it's that number.

14             In the early hours as you said I was in touch with international

15     press once I got into HQ Sector South which was not for some time after

16     the bombardment began.  I did not pass on to press anything in terms of

17     numbers, because everything was very, as I said in my statement, very

18     fluid and I don't think I'm on record myself of going and giving a number

19     of X shells, buildings, everything on the 4th of August.  Others, I think

20     may have done, but not from myself.

21        Q.   Is it possible, sir, that the number you gave in the witness

22     statement of 1100 shells came from -- that number came to you from Andrew

23     Leslie and not UNMO?

24        A.   No, it wasn't from Mr. Leslie.  I definitely went down to the

25     UNMO office downstairs from the second floor, which was inside and

Page 7071

 1     right -- and I was frequently in there because they had very good maps of

 2     the entire sector and enlarged maps of cities along the whole of the

 3     Sector South and the hinterland of Croatia.  So that's the point I wanted

 4     to go and see, and also because I felt, Okay, UNMOs are able to give a

 5     good assessment in terms of detonations, artillery, and that's where I

 6     went.

 7        Q.   Sir, taking you to your February 7, 2008 statement.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Again, if we could pull that up, which is P678,

 9     please, at page 10.

10        Q.   There you say in the middle of paragraph 33 that an as PIO you

11     "especially regarded UNMO reports in Sector South as being particularly

12     accurate for the reason that they were compiled by experts in military

13     ordnance."

14             Is that accurate, sir?

15        A.   Yes, that is my general feeling of UNMOs in not only that

16     situation but, in general, of what expertise was.

17        Q.   Now, I believe, and I'm looking for the reference here, but you

18     said in your witness statement of 28 February 2007 that, A report had

19     been prepared by senior UNMO, which would have been passed to UNPROFOR HQ

20     on the damage caused by shell fire in Knin.

21             Do you recall any such report?

22        A.   I can recall that that's -- a report -- sorry.  A report was made

23     by UNMOs and passed to headquarters on an assessment of, I think, shell

24     damage, and there were other reports on general assessment of buildings

25     as well in Knin and other places, also by -- headquarters.  There were

Page 7072

 1     several UNMO reports prepared and sent to headquarters assessing damage,

 2     some by the various teams collectively and one, I think, particularly

 3     looked at Knin in three or four different parts of Knin, looking at

 4     damage.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Can I have the registrar please put up Exhibit P64,

 7     please.

 8        Q.   Sir, this is an UNMO report on the shelling prepared on 18

 9     August 1995 by UNMO H -- SMO, Sector South.  SMO, you'll recall was

10     Steiner Hjertnes?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you recall having seen this report as part of your

13     responsibilities as the PIO?

14        A.   Yes, I saw this report but this, I recall is not the only UNMO

15     report I saw.

16        Q.   Well, you will note then you saw this report.

17        A.   Yes, did.

18        Q.   This report at paragraph 2, concludes:  "In general shelling was

19     concentrated against military objectives.  The damages caused by shelling

20     to civilian establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of

21     military objectives.  Only few, three to five impacts is observed in

22     other urban areas."

23        A.   I see that.

24        Q.   When you saw this report did that -- and it was a report by

25     people whom you now in court confirm to be particularly accurate for the

Page 7073

 1     reason that these reports were compiled by experts in military ordnance.

 2     When you received that report, did that impact the conclusion which

 3     you've given to this Trial Chamber in the witness statements that the

 4     shelling was indiscriminate, it was hitting civilian areas, and that

 5     civilian buildings had been hit?

 6        A.   Right.  Okay.  Can I take you through this, two, three,

 7     paragraphs.

 8             My impression when I got this and I think we're talking about the

 9     18th of August?

10        Q.   Correct.

11        A.   Right.  Provisional assessment damage caused by HV ops 4 to 6

12     August 1995 at Knin.  Provisional assessment by Podgonja [phoen] team, a

13     rundown, is based on a rundown of 70 per cent of Knin town and gives only

14     a brief -- a brief overview of the situation.  Correct?

15             In general, shelling was -- right.  Right.

16             I recall when I had this of being quite surprised.  It is not my

17     place as the press officer to go and try and challenge or change a

18     report.  But between the 6th of August and the date of this report that I

19     saw on that day, there had been several discussions between sector

20     commander's office and UNMOs in regard to damage, and I felt those

21     discussions were characterized in other reports that had gone to

22     headquarters mission of a larger extent of damage.  And I think there

23     were -- there are reports that exist prior to this and after that give a

24     different picture.  I don't think this is the only and final one, but I

25     have seen this report, I do see what it says, and the reason -- the

Page 7074

 1     reason I'm saying is that I know there were statements made, including by

 2     the sector commander, to the press from the press office phone giving his

 3     perspective of information in based upon UNMOs and collaboration with his

 4     office.

 5        Q.   Is it fair to say you don't have any particular military

 6     expertise to analyse shelling damage?

 7        A.   No, I don't have any professional expertise to assess, and what

 8     you have said, I would agree with and I would add a "but."  The "but" is

 9     well into the end of August, I, with one other UNMO, went out into Knin.

10     I did not stay with him but he was going to make an assessment of

11     detailed and minor damage to get an impression towards that part of late

12     August.

13             As far as I know, that was done.  I don't know if that was passed

14     as a general UNMO survey but that was looking at buildings around the

15     town and I, again, driving around, was picking out not vast devastation

16     of rooftops but clear signs that rooftops were hit and that I felt was in

17     later report of UNMOs.

18        Q.   What was the name of that UNMO?

19        A.   I can't recall now.

20        Q.   You referenced --

21        A.   I think it was a Norwegian or a Dutch UNMO that went out.  There

22     was an issue which we had recurring of a lack of photographic equipment

23     at the time of all this happening.  Sorry.  I'm drawing attention here to

24     your second paragraph --

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 7075

 1        A.   -- and the surprise was only few, (3 to five impacts) is observed

 2     in other urban areas.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you a question on the basis of your last answer.

 4             We've seen extensive pictures from you.  You testified that you

 5     were the only one that had a United Nations camera.  Why didn't you take

 6     pictures of 200 houses with shell damage?

 7        A.   It's a good question.  Part of the time we were out in the

 8     streets and there was still signs of Croatian soldiers.  That was one

 9     reason why not.  Later, it was possible, and I did not do it.  The other

10     thing we had a problem with, it is not important, but we did not have

11     vast amounts of film roll or access to film roll in our office or from

12     mission headquarters.  This was a place you could not go out to, as

13     background, into Knin and buy 12 rounds of video film or still film for

14     the camera.  It was limited and we were using extensively this, as things

15     went on, for photographs not just by me but by colleagues of the Human

16     Rights Action Team in the field.

17        Q.   Mr. Roberts, I am quite sure that you are aware that the issue of

18     the shelling of Knin was of high international awareness as early as the

19     4th of August, 1995, that the allegation was in the international

20     community and not something that was simply an allegation in Sector South

21     headquarters, and I put it to you, given the amount of attention in the

22     international press to the alleged indiscriminate shelling of Knin, are

23     you telling us that you actually found evidence of this, saw it with your

24     own eyes but decided you weren't going to take pictures because you

25     didn't want to waste film?  Is that your testimony?

Page 7076

 1             MR. WAESPI:  I thought --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  We have seen photographs that were taken by

 4     Mr. Roberts that show shelling damages.  There are at least two we have

 5     seen.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, I think that -- I would leave it to

 7     counsel to -- to speak without asking prior permission.  The words by

 8     both the accused are not translated, but I -- if there's any reason for

 9     an accused to speak aloud, then, of course, through counsel, you may ask

10     permission to do so.

11             Then going back, Mr. Waespi, I'm reading, again ...

12             MR. WAESPI:  It is P683.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  But it is not part of the question.  You

14     can object against the question, but Mr. Misetic sought confirmation of

15     how he understood the testimony and that is not directly related to

16     whatever we've seen at that moment.  He is asking without -- without

17     including in his question that in no way ever a roof has been hit by a

18     shell.  That was not the issue.

19             MR. WAESPI:  Well, I thought implicit in his question was the

20     fact that he didn't take any pictures because he didn't want to take --

21     to waste film but we do have photographs.

22             MR. MISETIC:  May I respond, Your Honour.  We're --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. MISETIC:  -- referring to the trips he said he took in the

25     weeks after Operation Storm which is August 1995 which is his testimony

Page 7077

 1     that he saw 200 houses hit.  The fact that he -- we've had this

 2     discussion already about when these other --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clear.  Please, Mr. Misetic, perhaps put the

 4     question again to the witness perhaps in a briefer way.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Roberts, you're taking trips in August, it is an obviously

 7     very important issue in the international community, you say you saw

 8     evidence of indiscriminate shelling --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   -- and your testimony is you have the one UN camera but didn't

11     want to waste film?

12        A.   Right.

13        Q.   Is that accurate?

14        A.   Yeah.  Well, I did take photographs, Your Honour.  And I sent

15     those photographs to our office in Zagreb headquarters, some of them.  I

16     was informed that UNMOs would make a detailed survey of the houses and

17     that also a team from mission headquarters would come and make a further

18     detailed assessment of buildings, because it was a very controversial

19     issue and my feeling was there was a feeling from mission headquarters of

20     maybe objectivity or assessment of what is really damage, collateral

21     damage, severe damage, as is analysed here.

22             If I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, does this

23     document and this report continue with anything more than this?  Is it

24     going on to many pages?  I'm sorry.

25        Q.   No.

Page 7078

 1        A.   All right.

 2        Q.   There is one page --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from that, we're not at this moment discussing

 4     this, Mr. Roberts.  The question was put to you mainly seeking

 5     confirmation why you did not photograph.  You said you made some

 6     pictures.  Are those among the pictures we've seen?  Are they in any of

 7     the series?  And we're talking about damage in the city of Knin caused by

 8     the taking over 4th of August, 5th of August.

 9             THE WITNESS:  I had taken a number of photographs only two of

10     which had been passed to the investigation, and I sent, and it wasn't

11     many, maybe a roll of film, up to our mission headquarters in Zagreb,

12     with other photographs on, of the shelling of buildings and general decay

13     in Banja Luka towards about the third week of December.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So if I understand your answer correctly, you said I

15     made some photographs, although we have not seen them, so we don't know

16     what they're focussing on, and apart from that it was not my primary task

17     and I understood that reporting would be done by others and most likely

18     by other means.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   You've stated that you've seen the UNMO report, you saw it back

24     then, yet you've given a conclusion that the shelling was indiscriminate

25     and that 200 civilian buildings were hit.

Page 7079

 1             What specific evidence did you hear of or do you have that

 2     contradicts the conclusions in the UNMO report on your screen?

 3        A.   I'd have to subscribe and I haven't got them with me the reports

 4     I read at the time and over the two or three weeks from UNMOs from the

 5     sector commander's office and from offices of civil affairs who had lived

 6     in Knin during the time of the shelling, and that information was

 7     discussed at the time and conclusions were drawn and that information was

 8     sent to headquarters Zagreb on a daily basis.  I haven't access to it but

 9     I felt that was a general overall impression of a good many people from

10     headquarters Sector South from different UN departments, especially, if I

11     could add, people who were in Knin, international civilians and others

12     on, the morning of the 4th of August when the bombardment started and

13     were picked up over two or three hours following by an APC or more than

14     APC in the same way as I was picked up from my accommodation.

15             So, again, I'm very, very surprised then and now at this report,

16     which, I expressed at the time, well, forgive me, it's three paragraphs.

17     Do we have something more, please, than this, at this stage, 18th of

18     August, and there was quite a defensive response by this.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Let's go to Exhibit P228, please.

20        Q.   This is an UN CIVPOL assessment performed on 18 August by

21     officers, Thor Hansen, Steinar Hagvag, Steinar Hagvag, and they were

22     surveying Knin to determine the damage caused by shelling, arson and

23     wilful damage.

24             If we could scroll down a little bit, please?

25             We covered the whole township and observed several impacts of

Page 7080

 1     shells, rockets around the Tvik factory, milicija headquarters, general

 2     direction of the northern barracks and between the government house, Knin

 3     radio TV building and hillside below Knin castle.  We counted roughly 20

 4     houses buildings hit by shells and about another 20 presumable damaged by

 5     arson.

 6             And it goes on to talk about on the main street most noticeable

 7     are totally gutted by fire.  On the positive side we found the area south

 8     of Knin hospital unharmed.  Even the satellite antenna and the ECMM

 9     accommodation looked 100 per cent intact.  The best part of the damage is

10     obviously not caused by direct acts of war, exchange of fire but wilful

11     damage inflicted by liberation forces.

12             Now this is UN CIVPOL's assessment on the same day, 18th of

13     August.  Did you receive a copy of this report?

14        A.   Yes, I have seen this report.

15        Q.   Would you agree with me that this report also does not suggest

16     that -- this report also does not suggest that there was indiscriminate

17     shelling of civilian targets on the 4th of August?

18        A.   This document does not say that or suggest that, no.  And I had a

19     discussion with the Steinar about the time of this document, after seeing

20     it and reading it, as I understand, and the Court will know better, but I

21     understand there are other documents also on this issue conducted later

22     and even before this document.  I do not think for the Court record that

23     these two documents seen from UNMOs and CIVPOL are the only reports made

24     by UN officials in regard to the shelling of Knin on the 4th and 5 of

25     August.  I think there are other documents that suggest a different

Page 7081

 1     picture that are available to this Chamber.  Whether they will be

 2     submitted, I do not know.

 3        Q.   Mr. Roberts, please identify by name the persons that we can

 4     contact who would have drafted those reports which contradict these two

 5     reports.

 6        A.   Well, I can't recall now by name, but I can attempt to find them

 7     out from personal records of UN employees that worked in Sector South at

 8     the time.

 9        Q.   Mr. Roberts, let me turn to your personal observations on the

10     morning of the 4th of August.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. MISETIC:

13        Q.   Before I turn to that, Mr. Roberts, are you aware that -- based

14     on your conversations with the Office of the Prosecutor in recent weeks

15     are aware that the senior UNMO, the Senior Military Observer, Steinar

16     Hjertnes, has told the Office of the Prosecutor that he filed a final

17     assessment of the shelling and that it was consistent with the findings

18     in the provisional assessment?  Are you aware of that?

19        A.   I'm not aware he has appeared before the Court I'm aware that a

20     final assessment was sent, yes.

21        Q.   How are you aware that a final assessment was sent, by UNMO?

22        A.   I think at the time I knew a final assessment report was being

23     sent to Zagreb headquarters.  I think we had several conversations in the

24     UNMO office about a further assessment to the one I was shown now, in

25     terms of the 18th of August.

Page 7082

 1        Q.   And in those conversations with UNMO at the time, they told you

 2     that the further assessment was consistent with the initial assessment.

 3     Isn't that correct?

 4        A.   I think I recall seeing the final document that went up and that

 5     it concurred with their initial assessment.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7        A.   I can just add one point in terms of this final issue?

 8        Q.   Sure.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             THE WITNESS:  This is suggesting from the report I'm seeing on

11     the screen that my information in my statements is incorrect.  I can only

12     refer Chamber and the Court to witnesses who were in Knin on the morning

13     of the 4th and 5th, and I know that they submitted reports --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Roberts, whether these documents suggest that

15     your assessment is wrong or whether your assessment suggests that the

16     reports are wrong is something the Chamber will have to consider at a

17     later stage, and advice to the Court as to whom should be called as

18     witnesses, first of all, in this procedural system it's mainly left to

19     the parties, although the Court has an opportunity to call witnesses if

20     it wishes to do so, but I think advice at this point either to the

21     parties or to the Court is, however good your intentions may be, is not

22     the real thing we're waiting for.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Mr. Roberts, turning to P676, which is your 1998 witness

Page 7083

 1     statement, at page 3 towards the top, second -- third -- second full

 2     paragraph towards the middle, it says:  "Shortly before 0500 hours at

 3     about 0450 hours I was surprised to see an UN mini-bus drive rapidly

 4     along the side street in the direction of my apartment building.  It was

 5     accompanied by an UN jeep."

 6             And if we could go to P677, page 4, on the bottom paragraph you

 7     say:  "On the morning of the 4th of August, 1995, I was asleep in my

 8     apartment on the top third floor of a block of apartments in Knin when I

 9     was awakened by a sudden crash of heavy explosives just before 5.00 a.m."

10             My question to you is were you awake at 4.50 observing UN

11     vehicles or were you asleep and awoken at around 5.00 a.m. by artillery?

12        A.   The general paragraph here is not correct.  This statement was

13     made in 2007 to an investigator.  That is completely true the date of the

14     statement is made.  And the better recollection for sure which this whole

15     episode of the shelling something described is in the 1998 statement and

16     I prefer that that's the one that I think is much more realistic, in

17     terms of what I remember and recall at that time from 1995.

18        Q.   Is there a reason that you didn't correct that as you reviewed it

19     to testify before the Trial Chamber?

20        A.   I think this is the general reflection of what happened but not

21     in detail, and I did not correct it, no.  But that is the reason why I'm

22     pointing out, albeit late now, that 1991 is the one that's much closer to

23     the time of the events concerned.

24        Q.   Now in your 1998 statement at page 4, you say at the top of the

25     page:  "The last Radio Knin broadcast was I think about 0500 hours

Page 7084

 1     warning the public of the incoming attack."

 2             Do you recall that?

 3        A.   Can you bring that up on the -- sorry.

 4        Q.   Sure.  That is P676.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Must be a mistake on the record where you refer to

 6     1994.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  1998.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Page 4, please.

10        Q.   I'd read the portion, the sentence previously begins:  "The radio

11     and TV studio building behind the main street in the centre of town was

12     apparently hit in the early morning barrage."

13             Then it says:  "The last Radio Knin broadcast was, I think about

14     0500 hours warning the public of the incoming attack."

15             Now, did you hear the broadcast?

16        A.   I didn't hear the broadcast directly.  We took a quick summary

17     from a taped version of the broadcast that was going on but there were

18     also, not here, I was aware later that there were other broadcasts of

19     Radio Knin during the day but the focus of warning the public of the

20     incoming attack was of what was going on on that morning.  And I think

21     there were actually three broadcasts of Radio Knin during the course of

22     the 4th of August.

23        Q.   Is there any particular reason you have said in the statement in

24     1998 that the last radio broadcast was at 0500 hours and connecting it in

25     context of saying the radio and TV studio building behind the main street

Page 7085

 1     in the centre of town was apparently hit in the early morning barrage of

 2     4 August 1995?

 3             Is it fair to say that in 1998 you were saying that the early

 4     barrage hit Radio Knin and that that resulted in Radio Knin going off the

 5     air?

 6        A.   No, I recall there was a broadcast early morning about the

 7     shelling and what was happening and in general a very blurred picture of

 8     a radio news broadcast.  I don't think that that was going -- in terms of

 9     the building being hit and then going off the air, that this was the last

10     broadcast.

11        Q.   How did Radio Knin --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

13             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, on the French transcript, the beginning of your

15     question was not yet translated, but ...

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   How did Radio Knin know that an attack was coming?

18        A.   I don't know.  I have put here the last radio broadcast, I think,

19     about 0500 hours warning the public, but the nature of the broadcast was

20     about the attack as well as what was happening by revealing the

21     bombardment that was not just in Knin but through the general area of the

22     so-called Krajina that an attack was taking place in many cities.  And

23     the later broadcasts of that echo that.  It is not accurate here the way

24     it is interpreted I can see the way isn't it warning the public as if

25     it's an announcement there's going to be an attack.  I'm sorry about

Page 7086

 1     that, but that's not the way in which the broadcast was heard.  It was

 2     about the bombardment being in many areas throughout the so-called

 3     Krajina.

 4        Q.   Now in your statements and I won't go through them all, but if

 5     you don't mind I will read them to you and if you need to see them, we'll

 6     show them to you.

 7             In 1998 you said at page 2:  "We had not managed to even dress

 8     properly and hit the floor together in the central lobby of their second

 9     floor apartment below my own."

10             In P677, which is 28 February 2007:  "I leapt out of bed and

11     immediately became aware that incoming artillery shells were coming from

12     the Croatian positions on the Dinara mountain above Knin.  I headed for

13     safety down to the second floor landing where I was joined by Nevis, her

14     sister and her sister's husband and their young son."

15             Now, sir, is it fair to say that for a large portion of the

16     shelling, you were -- and you had sought shelter on the second floor for

17     your own personal safety?

18        A.   Yes.  And again if I'm not mistaken, I describe that in my 1998

19     statement in those paragraphs that run consecutively as I recall.  We

20     were there on the second floor central part of the building from the

21     moments when the shelling began for at least 45 minutes, maybe an hour.

22     I think I have said this more previously in the statement.  Hearing the

23     bombardment going overhead.

24             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to P677, please.  Page 4, please.  At

25     the bottom.

Page 7087

 1        Q.   Now, in that bottom paragraph you describe what you saw from the

 2     balcony and you say, the last sentence:  "After about an hour I went back

 3     to my apartment and I could see smoke rising from the," if we can go to

 4     the next page, please, at the top, "direction of the RSK government

 5     building as well as a fuel depot located quite close to the RSK

 6     government building.  However, I was also aware of smoke rising from the

 7     top of civilian apartments in various parts of town," and then it goes

 8     on.

 9        A.   Can we -- sorry.

10        Q.   My question to you, sir, is until your statement of July 1, 2008,

11     which is a little more than three weeks ago, in none of your statements,

12     and you gave five of them, did you ever say anything about seeing dead

13     bodies from your balcony.  Is that accurate?

14        A.   Yes, that is.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, on the 4th of August, one of your primary

16     responsibilities was to communicate what was happening in Knin with the

17     domestic and international press.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Once I got to headquarters, yes, it is.

19             MR. MISETIC:  One moment, Your Honour.

20             There we go.

21        Q.   Now, let's --

22             MR. MISETIC:  If I could call up, please -- sorry, Your Honour.

23     1D41-0311.  Okay.

24        Q.   This is a Reuters report from 4 August 1995 talking about what is

25     happening.  It says towards the middle of that page, it's a

Page 7088

 1     paragraph starting:  "UN spokesman in Knin, Alun Roberts, said

 2     peacekeepers saw civilian who had been wounded in the bombardment but

 3     said it was difficult to gauge how many people were injured."

 4        A.   That's a question or can I comment?

 5        Q.   Yes.  I was going to take you through, if necessary, several of

 6     these reports, none of which have you saying, We know of at least two

 7     casualties because I saw them myself.

 8             Can you comment on that?

 9        A.   Yes, I can certainly.  I have said it in my statement before.  My

10     view personally on the ground as a spokesperson was to be very cautious

11     and not to go out with anything because I had to be in touch with my

12     press office in Zagreb.  I was not sure there would be a standard press

13     line coming from out from Zagreb.  I was aware that was an attack that

14     was not just on Knin.  Other parts of the sector were being affected as

15     well as Sector North and therefore I was, as I said in my statement, very

16     cautious, I wanted to be cautious before I went out and started saying,

17     Well, I have a particular person who saw three people, that's very, very

18     tempting to do but not in the first hours of 4th August 1995 and that is

19     not the first time that I found myself in that situation.

20        Q.   Mr. Roberts, I could take you through these various Reuters

21     reports.  I won't.  Suffice it to say that they all quote you and none of

22     them quote you as identifying any persons having been killed that you had

23     seen.  I note your answer.

24             My question to you then is:  If you didn't mention it on the 4th,

25     what precluded you in five witness statements to the Office of the

Page 7089

 1     Prosecutor from bringing it up then?

 2        A.   I had recalled in 2007 --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please --

 4        A.   Sorry, Your Honour.

 5             The sequence of my statements with the first one in 1997, which

 6     did not deal with the bombardment, and then I was asked by the Tribunal

 7     investigators to prepare another statement, which would be focussed very

 8     much on the issue of the bombardment, which I did in 1998 and submitted

 9     it.  There was then a ten-year gap between any further contact by

10     investigators from ICTY to visit myself to follow up.  I had thought in

11     the intervening period that that 1998 statement covered all dimensions of

12     the attack and what I had seen, including what I had seen from my

13     balcony.  In making the last statement, I was asked, Okay, and did you

14     see personally any bodies or people hit or killed, and then I put in yes,

15     I recall from the balcony I saw two and I thought a third.  And that went

16     in very late.  But I had thought that some of that was in the 1998

17     statement and it was not.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this document

19     into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

21             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit D711, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D711 is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 7090

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I may have 1D41-0293.

 2        Q.   Mr. Roberts, what I'm going to show you is a Croatian document

 3     noting a conversation that you had on the 4th of August.  The document

 4     itself is from the 4th of August, between you as the UN spokesmen in

 5     Sector South and the conversation you had with Mr. Stojan Obradovic who

 6     worked for the Stina news agency.  Do you recall him?

 7        A.   Yes, I recall the news agency in Split, Stina.

 8        Q.   I'd like to just take this through the time of the interview

 9     purports to at 1415 hours on 4 August 1995.  At the bottom of the second

10     paragraph, speaking of you it said:  "He said that the repeated shelling

11     of the town centre, Knin, had occurred approximately 25 minutes ago" --

12        A.   Just which paragraph are we on?

13        Q.   Paragraph 2, last sentence.  "And that the situation at the

14     moment was calm."  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   This is it also subject of statements made by UN spokesperson 4th

18     August at around 14, 1500 concerning events in Sector South.

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   So he is dating that in the early afternoon of the 4th of August,

21     correct?

22        Q.   Correct.

23        A.   Yeah.

24        Q.   Now, if we go to the fourth paragraph :  "Asked by Obradovic on

25     the situation in the town regarding the civilians, Roberts said there was

Page 7091

 1     no panic among the civilians.  However, in his opinion the people were

 2     extremely shocked and surprised by the shelling this morning.  Apartments

 3     have been destroyed and many window and shops -- shop windows broken.

 4              "When asked whether there were any fatally wounded he answered

 5     that they had contacted with the Knin hospital at which they were told

 6     that there was a need for assistance and supplies.

 7              "Furthermore, Roberts said that they were willing to provide

 8     assistance as much as they could..." and then it goes on, last sentence

 9     there:  "No information was available on the number of seriously wounded

10     persons."

11             If we could turn to the next page, please.

12             The second-to-last sentence which begins in the middle:  "Asked

13     by Obradovic on how the people would react if the Croatian army entered

14     Knin, he answered that he did not want to be speculative about that.

15     However, that the people in Knin were in an extremely serious situation,

16     very much concerned and anxious during the shelling but still not asking

17     for their assistance in order to leave or abandon the said area.  He

18     noted that the situation in Knin was extremely serious."

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   Now, a few questions on that.

21             First, you will note again that in this interview, when asked

22     specifically about fatally wounded, you did not respond by saying that

23     you had personally witnessed two fatally wounded persons.  Correct?

24        A.   That's correct.  And I had been in touch with my -- with my press

25     office colleagues in Zagreb and I understood that an assessment was being

Page 7092

 1     done of a broader nature by the various civilian elements that had come

 2     into headquarters in the morning as well as people in Sector South

 3     command headquarters to put out something towards Zagreb mid-afternoon

 4     for an update.  So I didn't want to go after the conversation with

 5     Christopher Gunness and make any kind of personal observations when I

 6     felt a larger picture was being presented at the mission headquarters

 7     press office.  And this paragraph here, I think -- I think sums it up

 8     pretty well of being very much inside the box, when quite a few other

 9     people were running around wanting to say and I think did say various

10     information that was not consistent.  These are people that I think

11     responded to the press before I got to the Sector South headquarters that

12     I learned about later about what they had said.

13        Q.   Mr. Roberts, following up on that second response, you said this

14     was -- it sums up pretty well being very much inside the box.

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Right.

16        Q.   It also sums up well, does it not, that at the moment that you

17     were speaking with this reporter at 1415, there was no panic among the

18     civilians.  Correct?

19        A.   At 1415 we had, yes, I think there was no visible sign of panic.

20     I had been in the town about an hour before this phone call from Stina

21     and we had, as you saw on the videotape, the ad hoc press briefing by

22     General Forand accompanied by myself in the centre of town in the

23     ex-former so-called RSK government headquarters restaurant and we had

24     seen coming away from there, ten minutes, people beginning to put things

25     in cars, there was debris on the streets and there was the first signs of

Page 7093

 1     people preparing to leave to go.  There was no kind of visible sense of

 2     people panic.  People were asking us what was going on, but that's all.

 3     But I didn't sort of see, I said here, a visible sign of emotion, panic

 4     at that time which would about an hour or half-hour before this comment

 5     to Stina.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I tender this document into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit D712, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D712 is admitted into evidence.

13             Mr. Misetic, I notice that we had ten minutes delay in our start,

14     even a bit more, you said you would finish by the second break.

15             MR. MISETIC:  I have, and I was going to ask for the Trial

16     Chamber's --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you still need?

18             MR. MISETIC:  I have one topic.  I will tell you it is to cover

19     the issue of the evacuation.  The witness was I believe personally

20     present at some discussions.  I would finish it in lest than 15 minutes,

21     Your Honour, unless Mr. Waespi needs some extra time in which case I

22     would cut it shorter.

23             MR. WAESPI:  I need about 15 minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  About 15 minutes.  Now, of course, it is it usually

25     preferable to have the break just prior to the start of the

Page 7094

 1     re-examination, but I'm looking at our interpreters and transcribers,

 2     whether they would insist on having a break now, no, not insisting on.

 3     This is the communication, the unspoken with our interpreters.

 4             Mr. Misetic, I'll strictly keep you to not one second more than

 5     15 minutes.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Let me just note that I'm sure the interpreters

 9     wish there was more unspoken communication by me today, but I thank them

10     for their indulgence.

11        Q.   Mr. Roberts, let me take you to this issue of evacuation.  In

12     your 2007 statement, you talked about arriving back -- let me find it.

13             When you arrived back in Sector South after your vacation, which

14     I believe you said was on the 3rd of August when you arrived.  Is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   You said that you had heard in 2007 and let me quote it:  "When I

18     first arrived back in Knin after my vacation, I had learned from the

19     office of the Sector South commander of what had been a rather unusual

20     follow-up to a meeting earlier in July 1995 for UN assistance for the

21     evacuation of the civilian population of Knin in the event of an attack

22     by the Croatian army?"

23             Do you recall making that statement to the Office of the

24     Prosecutor?

25        A.   Yes, I do and subsequently it is very important to add right here

Page 7095

 1     that there was discussion with investigates concerning the document that

 2     described that discussion and it was clearly assessed that that type of

 3     document could not have been made on the date concerned, but I had

 4     recalled general discussion of something being told me about assistance

 5     request if things got out of hand, developments.  I recalled long time

 6     ago in 2007 to 1995, but at the time I came back something like that was

 7     in my mind and then I related that to this page that has this odd date of

 8     July 1995 on.  But as has been clarified in going through that document

 9     specifically, in what that says, that date is clearly wrong and the real

10     significant assistance of UN request was discussions on the 4th of

11     August.

12             But I can recall that on coming back being told something by two

13     officials in the commander's office of something earlier being discussed

14     generally should things be getting to a very difficult stage but not in

15     terms of assistance from the UN in characterizing what that really was.

16     And we spent a fair bit of time going through this with the statement.

17        Q.   Mr. Roberts, just as a technical matter, when I pause after your

18     answer, it is because I'm trying to let the interpreters catch up, so if

19     you then continue to fill the pause, we never catch up, just so we can

20     assist the interpreters.  Thank you.

21             Now, let's talk about what you just said, that on the 4th of

22     August there were more -- the really significant UN assistance was on the

23     4th of August.

24             Can you explain in more detail what discussions took place

25     between the UN and the RSK about providing evacuation assistance?

Page 7096

 1        A.   Well, for me, the -- the issue, as I recall, was raised by a

 2     journalist at the about 12.00 noon press briefing in Knin, and I think it

 3     was Worldwide Television news, a local crew, that asked a question and

 4     I'm now paraphrasing what may have been introduced into evidence by

 5     General Forand, so I don't want to go and restate that, but as I recall

 6     he responded that -- it was a question more or less like what are the UN

 7     doing to assist and provide support to help people leave or provide

 8     petrol, and the general reply, well, forgive me, we are the UN and your

 9     authorities are responsible for those things and that there had been no

10     real contact from the RSK political and military in regard to requesting

11     assistance in any clear-cut manner.

12             It was later in the afternoon that we began to see things change

13     and as I said in my statement people arriving outside the gates of

14     Sector South headquarters and then the picture changed quite quickly in a

15     few hours, and then there was a meeting in the evening that was supposed

16     to take place between the so-called RSK authorities and Sector South

17     headquarters but as far as I know, there was no actual presence of UN

18     personnel that went to that meeting.  It didn't take place.

19        Q.   Well, do you know if General Forand went to have a meeting with

20     the ARSK representatives at about 1800 in the evening of the 4th of

21     August, 1995?

22        A.   I understood him to go downtown for that meeting, yes.  And I

23     refer to that -- I'm not sure and he will have told you if he has been

24     before the Court what happened.  But I'm not sure that people from the

25     with RSK in any real responsible positions were present to have that

Page 7097

 1     dialogue and discussion.  I know that the general came back really, in my

 2     view, quite frustrated about what these people were trying to do, look

 3     what's going on and what they're asking was --

 4        Q.   Well --

 5        A.   I was going to say way beyond what the UN could really lend

 6     itself to.

 7        Q.   Was Kostan Ovakovic [phoen] a responsible RSK official?

 8        A.   Well, I have to speculate.

 9        Q.   I don't want you do that.

10        A.   No.  Okay.  But I've met him before.

11        Q.   I have -- Mr. Roberts, I'm sorry, I have five minutes, so I don't

12     want to you speculate.

13        A.   No, I'll be very direct, then.  My view of Mr. Ovakovic was not

14     being very organised and being rather idealistic and descriptive and not

15     really realistic in the weeks preceding as to what really was happening

16     around Knin militarily or other developments.

17        Q.   You mentioned in your 2007 statement at page 6 that you were

18     present at the press conference - we saw the video earlier - he said he

19     was having trouble making contact with RSK authorities but that he

20     mentioned that sometime before, there had been a request from RSK

21     authorities for UN assistance to evacuate a large number of civilians.

22     However, as no plan or follow-up had been received -- just, sorry for the

23     translators.

24             Is that referring to the July conversations that you've testified

25     about already?

Page 7098

 1        A.   I think not.  I think it is referring very much to that

 2     particular day.

 3        Q.   So earlier in the day there had been some request from RSK

 4     authorities to provide UN assistance to evacuate civilians?

 5        A.   I think there had been a meeting before the press briefing, but

 6     I'm not sure.  General Forand perhaps would refer to that.  But even

 7     then, I think it was along the lines of the UN at the Sector South

 8     commander's level wanting to know precisely what it was that they needed

 9     and it was not being presented in a written form.  A later meeting was

10     supposed to happen quickly or soon after to devise that, and this is what

11     was referred to as the 1800 meeting and I recall the general coming back

12     and nothing had been concluded.  It was really almost too late.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D41-0341,

14     please.

15             THE WITNESS:  Can I add, Your Honour, on just the very same issue

16     or time is --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Briefly.  I'll look at the clock and I will not --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Give credit to you, Mr. Misetic.

20             Please.

21             THE WITNESS:  Also in the aspect of time, all I remember is that

22     we found ourselves mid-evening negotiating with the several hundred Serb

23     civilians with tractors, trailers, whatever, outside the gates about what

24     we could do to assist them and making them have two clear choices, which

25     I described in my statement what they were, to save time.

Page 7099

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  30 seconds credit, Mr. Misetic.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Roberts, you will note that this is a report of a broadcast

 4     on Serbian Radio Belgrade on 4 August 1995.  It's at 2200 CET, which is

 5     20 GMT.  Is it General Mrksic on giving an interview and if I can find

 6     the right portion.

 7             Towards the middle there, he says:  "No, the disengagement line

 8     has not been changed.  Our forces have withdrawn to positions for the

 9     direct defence of Knin."

10             And above that -- sorry.  That is what I was looking for:  "The

11     aggression that started at 0500 continued until night-fall.  Combat

12     operations in the Knin region have been suspended for the moment.  Knin

13     is in darkness and the population is being evacuated."

14             In your statement you said that you were monitoring Radio Knin

15     and didn't hear anything about an evacuation order having been issued.

16     Is it possible, sir, that General Mrksic was on Radio Belgrade, made the

17     announcement that there had been an evacuation order but that it wasn't

18     on the Radio Knin because it had been knocked out for the shelling.  And

19     if you could pause for the interpreters, please?

20        A.   I have seen this document before, in terms of Mr. Mrksic's

21     statement from Belgrade, I believe, and I was really surprised when I

22     read it.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  I tender this --

24        A.   Because I felt it was covered up after the event by people who

25     had left or were in Belgrade.

Page 7100

 1        Q.   This is from the 4th of August, sir?

 2        A.   Yes, I'm saying that, that this person is speaking, as I

 3     understand, from?

 4        Q.   No.  He is on Radio Belgrade from Knin.

 5        A.   Right.  Yeah, yeah.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  I tender the document, Your Honour, and I have one

 7     more document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  No objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit D713, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D713 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Last topic, sir, 1D41-0343.

14        Q.   This is a New York Times article.  I'm sure you saw it last

15     night, December 12, 1995, talking about everything that had happened

16     after Operation Storm.

17             If we could go to the next page.  At the bottom, please.  You are

18     quoted as follows: "There has not been an organised government campaign

19     to harass, loot, and kill people,' said Alun Roberts, a United Nations

20     spokesman, 'but there has been no sincere organised attempt by the

21     authorities to control the situation."

22             Does that statement that you made to the New York Times

23     accurately reflect your view of what took place?

24        A.   The question put by the journalist was broader and this is an

25     portion of my answer, but that's what I, said, that there has been no --

Page 7101

 1     not been an organised government campaign.

 2             I would just ask the Chamber, please, to also reflect on my other

 3     statements and those especially made by my spokesperson colleagues from

 4     Zagreb mission headquarters, in the context of this.  To pull out one is

 5     not really saying that is the whole sweep of the UN's scope of it.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I tender it into evidence.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit D714, Your Honours.

10             MR. MISETIC:  I thank you, Mr. Roberts, for testifying, and I

11     thank the Trial Chamber for the extra time.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a break and we'll resume at five

13     minutes past 1.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.10 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Waespi:

18             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have three short, I

19     hope, topics to cover.

20        Q.   The first one, Mr. Roberts, is following up on a question by

21     Mr. Misetic before the break.  The so-called final assessment of the SMO

22     and that refers to Prosecution Exhibit 64, the two-page document.  Do you

23     recall, Mr. Roberts, has been shown to you.

24             Now, you answered on an inquiry whether you had heard of any --

25     any final assessment, you said, yes, you recall seeing a final

Page 7102

 1     assessment, a follow-up to P64, and you also said that it was consistent

 2     with the initial assessment.

 3             Now where did you see that document?

 4        A.   As I recall, in the office of the UN Military Observers in

 5     Sector South headquarters.

 6        Q.   And was there a person who directed you to or how did you come

 7     across the document?

 8        A.   Just regular daily visits and discussions with UNMOs in the UNMO

 9     office downstairs on the first floor.

10        Q.   And how big was the document, how many pages, if more than one

11     page?

12        A.   It was more than one page.  I thought it was quite a substantial

13     document, going through various parts of Knin.  It was an assessment

14     report.  I didn't go and read it there and then or anything, but I was

15     shown it as what's being sent in to the mission headquarters.

16        Q.   Do you have a copy, did you make a copy of the document?

17        A.   I don't think I did.  I'm not completely sure.  I don't think so.

18        Q.   Do you recall the date?

19        A.   It would be some -- I'm only speculating now, not being sure.

20     Sometime middle September, I think, something like that.  It was

21     certainly a few weeks after the 18th of August initial provisional

22     assessment that was shown me just now.  That was the date, I think.

23        Q.   And did you discuss it with its author, the SMO?

24        A.   I did have a conversation with Steinar about this, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

Page 7103

 1             Let's turn to a second brief issue, the -- your UN interpreter.

 2     Who picked Mr. Predrag Sare as your UN interpreter?

 3        A.   He was assigned and recruited for employment before I arrived in

 4     September 1993.  He would have gone through the normal process of

 5     employing interpretation staff by having to go fill in an application, be

 6     interviewed by personnel office, a background check would have had to

 7     have been done, and the panel who would interview him would be two or

 8     three people, usually somebody from personnel, somebody from the section

 9     who would employ him, which would be civil affairs overall, and one other

10     person, usually a panel of three.

11        Q.   Were you involved in hiring him?

12        A.   No.  I was not in Sector South at the time.

13        Q.   The other issue in connection to him, did you receive any

14     complaints for instance witnesses who were interviewed a second time with

15     a different interpreter that, you know, the first interview with Mr. Sare

16     was not accurate?  Have you ever heard of any such complaints?

17        A.   No.  To the contrary.  I know when senior officials from

18     headquarters in Zagreb, mission headquarters would come, quite often he

19     would be assigned as the official interpreter at higher level meetings,

20     the reason being purely on the need for very accurate fast interpretation

21     not only in English but sometimes in different languages.  French, I

22     think, Swedish, Italian.  He had a broad range of languages.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

24             Let's turn to the last issue and that's something Mr. Kuzmanovic

25     raised with you.  He asked you whether you gave the licence plates, the

Page 7104

 1     sketch or the list with those licence plate numbers to the Croatian

 2     authorities, and you answered no.

 3             Now let me show you 65 ter 5323, which is one of the documents on

 4     the list to be tendered with you.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  If we could go to page 5 at paragraph 18, and this

 6     is page 7 on the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Do you remember having written a report on the Varivode incident,

 8     Mr. Roberts?

 9        A.   Just one second.

10             Yes, I did write a report of the public information office on the

11     whole of Varivode, yes.

12        Q.   And perhaps -- I'm sorry, I should have done that, if we could

13     see the first page first.

14             Is that your report, Mr. Roberts?

15        A.   Yes, that's the report, 3rd of October 1995.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Going back to page 5 at paragraph 18 and it is the

17     last paragraph before paragraph 19, last subparagraph.  It's on page 5 --

18     not on paragraph 5, page 5.

19             Yes.  Can you scroll down a little bit more, please.  Yes, that's

20     it.

21             Let me read you what you wrote in October following the Varivode

22     incident.  "I subsequently learned tonight from UN CIVPOL's deputy sector

23     chief, Lief Bjorken, present at the meeting today that they have asked

24     the Croatian police in Zadar for copies of all documentation and full

25     access to the investigation.  (That would be a first time if it

Page 7105

 1     happens!)"

 2             Now, do you know whether it happened for the first time that UN

 3     CIVPOL got full access to an investigation site?

 4        A.   Well, as far as I know, if it did happen, it would be a first

 5     time, because of the actual request I knew had been made at several

 6     police stations for investigation reports.  This was a serious incident

 7     and that's my rather sarcastic response back to myself, and later it is

 8     contrasted at the very end of that report in talking to Lief again that

 9     they had not got all documentation many weeks after the incident itself

10     from the Zadar police.  They couldn't talk anymore to the UN CIVPOL.  It

11     had been handed to the actual courts for processing, and the whole report

12     concludes as is available to the Chamber.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  With all due respect, Your Honour --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  What relevance does this have to whether or not

16     plates were handed by Mr. Roberts -- it was obvious he didn't hand the

17     plates in regarding the incident I crossed him on.  What does this have

18     to do with that?  They're completely different issues.

19             MR. WAESPI:  The next question, I believe, will reveal Mr. --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will wait for the next question.

21             MR. WAESPI:

22        Q.   Now, returning to the issue of not providing these licence plate

23     numbers to the Croatian police, based on your experience you gained in

24     dealings with the Croatian authorities and their responses to your

25     requests, do you think you would have gotten any response back from the

Page 7106

 1     Croatian authorities if you had given them the licence plate numbers?

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, Your Honour, that's complete

 3     explanation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, this really calls for speculation.  You

 5     can ask the witness about when he made requests and, then of course we

 6     would have to consider requests which are of a similar kind as the matter

 7     we're dealing, which, by the way, is not a request but not providing

 8     information spontaneously, which is of course, so therefore the question

 9     is not only calling for speculation if any request -- if he would have

10     done so, whether he would have had a response.  I think the issue is

11     whether, with due diligence, information was given to the police forces

12     that would have to investigate so as to assist them, not necessarily to

13     reach responses, that's what I understand to be the issue.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And, Your Honour, if I might add, this is

15     completely the reserve the situation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think I already pointed that out.

17             MR. WAESPI:  I can ask --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, ask whatever kind of factual questions

19     but --

20             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not the question you had just put to him.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. WAESPI:

24        Q.   Mr. Roberts, can you let us know the reasons if there are any

25     specific reasons why you did not pass on the list of licence plates to

Page 7107

 1     the Croatian police.

 2        A.   The reason was, first, I had given this list to UN CIVPOL; I hope

 3     that is clear from what I said earlier.  I understood they were in touch

 4     with the Croatian police in Knin and that was my feeling of chain of

 5     command.  I don't want to say anything further but that is the way I

 6     passed it on in terms of CIVPOL having it, CIVPOL in touch with the

 7     police and whatever was going to happen would be used in that fashion or

 8     chain of command.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

10             MR. WAESPI:  Let's move to 65 ter 5334.  And Mr. President,

11     that's the Robert Fisk article, the second one that has not been admitted

12     based on your earlier ruling, but I believe that this issue opens the

13     door to ask the witness for a comment.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. WAESPI:  And I believe its correct number is P687 MNA, marked

16     non-admitted, I think is the ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's --

18             MR. WAESPI:  And I'm interested in the second page, the last

19     paragraph, and we already heard a couple of days ago who Mr. Fisk was.

20        Q.   Now I read you the last paragraph.  And I quote:  "The Croat

21     interior ministry police, who are deeply implicated in the murders and

22     burnings in Krajina claim they will investigate acts of arson or looting.

23     Doubtless, they will be able to trace the two cars of the anonymous three

24     Croat ethnic cleansers.  The first, an Audi, carried the registration

25     number ZD 570 H from the coastal town of Zadar, while the other bore the

Page 7108

 1     number plate KR 770 H, registered in Karlovac, 30 miles from Zagreb.

 2     Equally doubtless, however, the Croat police will not lift a finger to

 3     find out who owns the car, since they must know all too well."

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I have no idea what the connection

 6     is with these license plates and this article with the incident that

 7     we're discussing in cross-examination and direct examination earlier.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the questions to follow will shed some light

 9     on that.

10             MR. WAESPI:

11        Q.   Mr. Roberts, is the experience Mr. Fisk talks about in dealing

12     with the Croatian police in relation to finding out about the owners of

13     cars of suspected perpetrators consistent with your experience?

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt Mr. Waespi,

15     but first of all, Mr. Fisk who writes this article doesn't say that he

16     dealt with the Croatian police.  It has absolutely nothing to do with

17     dealing with the Croatian police.  He doesn't say who he talked to, he

18     doesn't say what he dealt with, he doesn't say that he gave him the

19     licence plate numbers.  He doesn't say anything.  It is an article

20     expressing an opinion with a conclusion.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first, Mr. Waespi, if you want to find out

22     whether the experience of Mr. Fisk, whatever that exactly was, is

23     consistent with the witness's own experience, first ask him about his own

24     experience and then at least we have a starting point which is solid, and

25     then the comparison to be made will depend on what the answer of the

Page 7109

 1     witness will be.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Very well.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. WAESPI:

 5        Q.   Mr. Roberts, were you involved in providing the Croatian police

 6     with information about alleged crimes you have witnessed in the Krajina

 7     following Operation Storm?

 8        A.   I was present with UN CIVPOL on several occasions when they gave

 9     information to the police authorities in Knin and subsequently to advise

10     the Court, if I could, the -- there are more than maybe a dozen or more

11     CIVPOL Knin reports of UN CIVPOL about incidents where they saw and

12     recorded licence plate numbers of incidents of arson, looting and other

13     violent acts and they gave those, that information of those incidents

14     with what they saw of licence plates to the Knin authorities and that

15     information should be, have been, tabled to the court authorities but

16     exists certainly.

17        Q.   And following up on your answer, did you every get the feedback

18     by the Croatian police on what they did with this information?  Did they

19     report back and say, Yes, we received information, we followed up, that's

20     what we are doing or what we did with it?

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  What information are we talking about?  Are we

22     talking in general, are we talking a specific incident?  It's very broad

23     and vague.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's split up the question in two portions.  First,

25     about what -- first, whether there was in the feedback on investigative

Page 7110

 1     steps on the event described in general terms; and then, second part,

 2     whether you ever received any feedback in relation to specifically

 3     licence plate numbers being investigated and results of such

 4     investigations.

 5             Could you please answer the question.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 7             Well, chain of command again it would not be that the police of

 8     Knin would report obviously to me, the press officer, but they report to

 9     CIVPOL and on many contacts with CIVPOL in Knin station and headquarters,

10     my impression was from their reports to mission headquarters that there

11     was no feedback of follow-up investigations when they had submitted oral

12     and written information to the police, including on occasions information

13     useful like licence plate numbers.

14             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I believe the witness

15     answered the second question as well with his last point.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think he did, yes.

17             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, especially in light of the tendering

18     of certainly a dozen of different newspaper articles over the last two

19     days, Slobodna Dalmacija, New York Times today, I suggest also, given the

20     witness's answer, that this exhibit should be received into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Just for the record, I see a distinction between

23     tendering a New York Times article which quotes the witness on the stand

24     and putting the quote to the witness and taking an article which doesn't

25     have any direct relationship to the witness and start putting newspaper

Page 7111

 1     articles in.  I just wanted to note that distinction.  With respect to

 2     the particular substance, I'll leave it to other counsel since the issue

 3     doesn't deal with my cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Mr. Misetic rose before I did.  I would join in

 6     that objection and especially considering the lack of relevance

 7     specifically to the issues that were covered in cross.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

 9             MR. KAY:  Slobodna Dalmacija was the exhibit that I put in,

10     already in evidence before the Court because it directly referred to the

11     accused and therefore, quoting him in the national press, it was a matter

12     that was admissible and relevant but the Fisk article as we have seen

13     causes all sort of evidential problems, and if the Court opens the door

14     with this particular article one can foresee that many more can come

15     through the door, because there is no basis between this witness's

16     evidence and Mr. Fisk's experience.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, if there would be good reasons to admit

18     this in evidence, then it would not be a problem to open the door because

19     then there would be good reasons for similar evidence in the future, so

20     that argument, as such, that it would have some follow-up, whether that

21     is acceptable or not acceptable depends on the acceptability of the

22     decision on this one.  Let me just --

23             MR. WAESPI:  Perhaps --

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

Page 7112

 1             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  I believe one of the issues brought by the

 2     Defence the last time we discussed this exhibit was that the author

 3     cannot be cross-examined.  That applies to us as well.  We cannot

 4     cross-examine or we could not, the author of not only Slobodna Dalmacija,

 5     also Vecernje List, and there are three -- D36, D37, D59, D38.  I don't

 6     think all of them relate to direct quotes from the accused.  It's about

 7     reliability, about giving weight, but I think also given the earlier link

 8     between Mr. Fisk and Mr. Roberts here who met each other before Mr. Fisk

 9     went out and what he said today clearly is enough of a foundation between

10     this witness, the tendering witness and the evidence and that's all that

11     matters in my view, Mr. President.

12             MR. KAY:  One observation, I'm sorry, every article produced by

13     us mentions Mr. Cermak.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, there is no need for your observation

16     because the Chamber does not reconsider its decision on the admission of

17     the -- this document.

18             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             The last document I would like to show is a document which was on

20     the list of exhibits, potential exhibits for Mr. Roberts from the

21     Gotovina Defence and I'd like to call it up on the screen.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We earlier said that we do not reconsider.  Of

23     course the right language might have been that we have considered whether

24     we should change our decision and that is of course a kind of

25     reconsideration and that our conclusion is that we'll not give a decision

Page 7113

 1     different from the earlier.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  This is 1D41-0114, a

 4     four-page document dated 19th October 1995, authored by the Republic of

 5     Croatia Ministry of the Interior, bureau for the protection of the

 6     constitutional order.

 7        Q.   And it talks about various issues of Croatian intelligence into

 8     what the UNMOs were doing.  And it has one reference to Mr. Roberts, and

 9     that's on page 3 of the English version.  The third full paragraph, the

10     large one starts:  "The person drawing most attention both prior to and

11     after Operation Storm is Alun Roberts from Wales who has been almost

12     openly supporting the Serb side ever since he arrived in Knin up to the

13     present days.  He is highly appreciated among his colleagues for his

14     professionalism and engagement in his mandate."

15             And it goes on of course to discuss the connection between

16     Mr. Roberts and Predrag Sare in whom it says here Mr. Roberts has great

17     confidence.

18             Is that an accurate reflection of the way you were perceived by

19     your colleagues and the dealings with Mr. Sare as found out by the

20     Croatian intelligence, Mr. Roberts?

21        A.   Their perception, and I can only speculate, I don't know whether

22     it's accurate, but it came across to me that I was considered to be a

23     sympathizer of the people in Knin with a particular allegiance to certain

24     local people and to certain interpreters, and this was, just quickly,

25     referred to and raised by the press colleagues in Zadar at the press

Page 7114

 1     briefing in open questions and given a quite clear descriptive response

 2     which was not reported by me in terms of way the UN works and how we go

 3     about being public information officers and how we are checked and how we

 4     conduct our work.

 5        Q.   Were you aware that the Croatian authorities, after

 6     Operation Storm, the end of Operation Storm, equally checked and looked

 7     into what the members of the UN were doing?

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I object.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- before we deal with this question.

10             The previous question, I thought that you were asking about how

11     colleagues of Mr. Roberts appreciated him; that is, positive and

12     professionalism and engagement in his mandate.  And I got the impression

13     from the answer that Mr. Roberts was not talking about that.

14             So I first have to verify whether that was what you asked for.

15             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And then I have to ask Mr. Roberts whether his

17     answer was about how he was appreciated by his colleagues in terms of

18     professionalism and commitment or that you were talking about how the

19     Croatians or the Serbs, whomever may have appreciated you.

20             THE WITNESS:  The answer is, first of all, that's how I perceive

21     the view of the Croatian authorities would be towards me.  In regard to

22     colleagues, meaning UN colleagues, the answer would be, yes, I think that

23     that's the viewpoint throughout.  For information, usually public

24     information officer of the UN or political affairs officers usually only

25     stay one year in a mission area before they are transferred for a range

Page 7115

 1     of reasons, especially in conflict, but I continued there.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Waespi, it comes as a bit of a surprise

 3     that you ask about A, get an answer about B, and that you just go on to

 4     your next question.  That suggests that you -- your question or the

 5     answer is not that much --

 6             MR. WAESPI:  Maybe I wasn't following it as closely as I should

 7     have.  I apologise.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, and then the next question, let me

 9     first read it on my screen so that I know what the objection might be

10     about.

11             One second, please.

12             MR. WAESPI:  I can rephrase it, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you rephrase it then we will see whether

14     Mr. Misetic still has an objection.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Mr. Roberts, were you aware that the Croatian authorities were

18     collecting information about your performance as a UN spokesperson

19     post-Operation Storm?

20        A.   It had been drawn to my attention by UN security, as well as

21     other UN officials had had contacts with the Croatian officials were also

22     cautioned by those who would assist those things, like UN security, that

23     this was more than likely and to take that into account.  I'm seeing

24     here, if I may, this reference in the centre, for what it's worth, if

25     that is good official information, this is not true at all, and we have

Page 7116

 1     responded to this in those days gone by during the mandate.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  I'd like to tender this document, Mr. President.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  I was going to bar table it so we have no

 5     objection, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we strike it from the list of the bar table

 9     documents and have a number assigned to it.

10             Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P694.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P694 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That concludes my

14     re-examination.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions.

16             MR. MISETIC:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Just briefly, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

21        Q.   Mr. Roberts, there was a question and answer series on the issue

22     of UN CIVPOL and what was given to whom and when in various

23     circumstances.  I'm only concerned in this particular circumstance and

24     that is the incident at Grubori.  You did not give the licence plates to

25     the Croatian police.  That's already been established.  You said that

Page 7117

 1     someone at UN CIVPOL told you that they, UN CIVPOL were in touch with the

 2     Croatian police.  Who at UN CIVPOL was in touch with the Croatian police

 3     regarding these licence plates, when, and what was that person's name at

 4     Croatian police?

 5        A.   I don't know the names of the person at the Croatian police

 6     specifically.  I understood from UN CIVPOL operations officer on that

 7     night that the on-duty operations officer was the person informed as well

 8     as the station commander of the station in Knin from the actual UN CIVPOL

 9     UN commander in Sector South headquarters.

10        Q.   Those are titles.  I want names, sir.

11        A.   Yes.  I don't have them.  I don't recall them.

12        Q.   And you can't tell me when and with whom at the Croatian police

13     anyone spoke to about providing these license plates that you wrote down.

14     Correct?

15        A.   I have no information that that was passed on in terms of a

16     photocopy or directly, no, I don't.

17        Q.   And you met with either a representative of General Cermak or

18     other people relating to this incident and you did not provide any of

19     those people with those licence plate numbers.  Correct?

20        A.   When we met with Mr. Dondo, no, I did not give a document of that

21     kind.  It was only in the afternoon I recorded the actual license plate

22     numbers the second time we were there.

23        Q.   Okay.  There is a question about your perceived --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated].

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry.  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7118

 1        Q.   The last series of questions in which you were shown the document

 2     about the issue of professionalism and/or bias, you currently live in the

 3     capital of Republic of Srpska, Banja Luka, which is not exactly a symbol

 4     of diversity and ethnic tolerance, is that correct?

 5        A.   Oh, I wouldn't agree with you at all.  I have lived in Banja Luka

 6     but also have a range of other locations and friends throughout the whole

 7     of the Balkans that I resided and stay with, so your reflection there of

 8     that reflecting something on somebody's character, I completely reject.

 9             For the record, I think it does not matter where you live in the

10     word.  Your principles and your working professionalism stays with you is

11     my personal experience, sir.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17             JUDGE KINIS:  Referring back to your statement, P675, and

18     paragraph 59.

19             Last sentence:  We observed the Croatian military had set up

20     check-points just outside the cemetery.  It means Gracac cemetery.

21             My question is, was there some other purpose for setting up these

22     check-points or just securing area of entrance of cemetery?

23        A.   They told us it was for security and we were also part of the

24     people that we were to -- were controlled in terms of that first visit.

25     We were not allowed through because of that security.

Page 7119

 1             JUDGE KINIS:  Yes, I understand, but there was some -- some

 2     junctions with roads or some other reasons why these check-points were

 3     set up in this specific area.

 4        A.   No.  The check-point was at the gate of Gracac cemetery alongside

 5     the road.  It was not near a road junction.  It was to control access

 6     into and out of the graveyard in Gracac.

 7             JUDGE KINIS:  Thank you.  And next question is referring to

 8     paragraph 76.  You mentioned regarding incident of Grubori, and there

 9     is -- you mention there was nowhere forests and it is -- based on our

10     previous testimonies, there was some information that shared by witnesses

11     that terrorists fled to forests and -- and ran away from this area.

12             Can you please describe vicinity of this area and besides of it,

13     how far was railway road from this Grubori village?

14        A.   The railway road.

15             JUDGE KINIS:  Yes.

16        A.   Okay, I understand.

17             Grubori would be, as I described, up a steep incline.  There were

18     trees around it.  The middle area of the valley, if Grubori, if you

19     imagine goes up to the right, is flat and completely clear.  We could see

20     the trees in front of Grubori from the other side of the valley where we

21     were at the meeting.  I would not say there's a large forest area in the

22     vicinity of Grubori.  There are trees or stocks of trees but not a

23     forest, which I think, for me is a distinctly different thing.

24             The railway line from Plavno valley would be the railway line

25     running out from Knin up to Strmica and onwards.  I would put it maybe 20

Page 7120

 1     kilometres away from the area of Plavno valley.

 2             JUDGE KINIS:  20 kilometres.

 3        A.   Approximately.  I can't be dead sure but it was certainly some

 4     distance.  You wouldn't drive out five minutes and find the railway line.

 5             JUDGE KINIS:  And last question is referring paragraph 81,

 6     regarding Grubori incident as well, you mentioned that we counted about

 7     12 that houses that had been burned and been on fire and burned.

 8             My question is was these houses close to each other or they were

 9     scattered?  How could you explain this situation?  Yes.

10        A.   Houses were very close to each other.  They were very small

11     dwellings, I would describe them, close.  When we say streets here, very,

12     very narrow to talk down.  You couldn't drive cars down any part of

13     Grubori and the houses were quite close together.

14             JUDGE KINIS:  But what was your impression, was all houses set on

15     fire intentionally or there was some houses which are incidentally burned

16     down and maybe some other houses would continue to burn afterwards.

17        A.   Some of that is speculation, but our view of the people there,

18     including myself obviously, was that they were deliberately set on fire

19     and I think in the report I submitted 29th August, I say about half of

20     the dwellings in Grubori were on fire and burning on the first visit that

21     morning.

22             JUDGE KINIS:  Okay.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One follow-up question on that half.  Were these all

24     adjacent dwellings or was it one on fire, one not on fire, one on fire,

25     one -- could you further explain what you meant by half.

Page 7121

 1        A.   No.  It was not maybe seven dwellings all in a row.  It was

 2     scattered, maybe three small streets different parts of Grubori village

 3     were on fire, not all consistent in one area.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that.

 5             This then concludes your evidence, Mr. Roberts.  At the beginning

 6     you said that you wanted perhaps to add something if there is anything

 7     that you're not able to say any earlier, I'm not expecting long speeches,

 8     but if there's some vital issue you would say, I wanted to say that at

 9     that moment and I didn't get the opportunity, so ...

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             Yes, just to say in regard to the cross-examination by the

12     advocate for General Cermak in the first morning, there was discussion

13     about the first meeting with General Cermak, the 7th of August or the 8th

14     and I was shown a UN summary of the meeting.  It was suggested, I think

15     is the right word, is what I said in my report of the focus of that

16     meeting was not what is reflected in that meeting.

17             I, from memory, would like the Chamber to look at the 8th of

18     August sitrep of the Sector South commander, item B, top page, which

19     begins, from memory:  I had another meeting today with General Cermak and

20     says the issues discussed principally were freedom of movement, security,

21     et cetera.  That's for --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would like to draw our attention to that

23     document.  Is that a document which in evidence?  Yes, it is.  I think

24     I've -- I've heard those lines, not through memory, but by reading them.

25             Thank you for that.  Anything else, Mr. Roberts.

Page 7122

 1             THE WITNESS:  And just also to submit, if I can, this file was

 2     given me on the issue, I think or -- forgive me if I can't say this

 3     word --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS:  But I think it was presented in terms of my being

 6     seen as extremely biased.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you don't have to worry about that.

 8             THE WITNESS:  No, I'm not, but I would like just to say that I

 9     was invited to say whether there's anything in here that I have said in

10     terms of giving one comment of a critical kind of human rights violations

11     in Sector South.  Right.

12             I have gone through every single article here.  I did not, in any

13     of these articles presented me in this file, say ever that there was a

14     critical issue on human rights.  I have gone through this file and looked

15     at every single article before the 4th of August, 1995, and after them.

16             And I have tabled here a memorandum of my --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's perhaps by mistake this you told us

18     earlier and then the parties would look at it and I did not take any

19     action any further on that.

20             Mr. Waespi.

21             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  We briefly discussed it.  I think my colleague

22     has a copy, I don't have one.  But we can make a bar table submission

23     which explains the witness's comments about that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  at the same time the witness asked whether he

25     could add anything orally to what he put on paper.  I leave it to the

Page 7123

 1     parties whether they want to tender the --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  My position is essentially I agree with what Mr.

 3     Roberts has just said.  My question was focussed on whether there was any

 4     such comment concerning human rights before the 4th of August.  He has

 5     confirmed that there is no such comment.  However, he wants to and he was

 6     presented a breakdown of what topics he was discussing at that time.  If

 7     the Prosecution and Mr. Roberts wish to tender that, that's fine.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say it is not a direct answer to your

 9     question, the answer has been given by now.

10             MR. MISETIC:  He has given it orally now, but if there's a need

11     for the Court or for the Prosecution to tender an analysis of what he was

12     talking about, that is it fine, I have no objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Roberts, the only issue is your comments as

14     published on human rights issues.  That's what was the question was

15     about, if would you like to add something to that, because I do

16     understand that in your memo that -- it's mainly what subjects were

17     covered and not any further comments on the human rights issues.  Then

18     have you an opportunity to do, but very briefly.

19             THE WITNESS:  Very briefly that having reviewed this in my memo

20     which you have, besides myself there were other senior United Nations

21     officials commented on all these issues here and as well as after the 4th

22     of August 1995 and before and not one of them also with the opportunity

23     of a journalist raised the issue of human rights in Sector South, Sector

24     North also.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You would say you were in good company.

Page 7124

 1             THE WITNESS:  I would say that it was not necessary.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then you still owe me one answer to one

 3     question I asked you to consider.  It is about the freedom of movement of

 4     journalists after the 4th of August, 1995.  Do you remember that?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.

 6             After the 4th of August 1995 the situation was very different

 7     from before.  There were restrictions on some journalists going to

 8     sensitive places to report by mainly a mixture the Croatian police

 9     military and special police units and so on, but they were getting out

10     more and more, especially in the company of UN personnel in UN vehicles,

11     as you pushed the window on freedom of movement, they could see for

12     themselves and reported freely what their observations were and I think

13     there's good evidence to suggest a broad range view that -- of the

14     activities and operations taking place, but yes, it was much better

15     freedom of movement.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

17             This then concludes your testimony in this Court, Mr. Roberts.  I

18     would like to thank you very much for having answered the questions that

19     were put to you by the parties and the Bench.  We even got for free some

20     advice with it, but that is not something I would specifically thank you

21     for, although I appreciate your good intentions.

22             We wish you a safe trip home again.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We stand adjourned, and I got it from Mr. Registrar.

25     Thank you.

Page 7125

 1             We stand adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, the 24th of July,

 2     quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom I.

 3                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of July,

 5                           2008, at 2.15 p.m.