Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7308

 1                           Monday, 25 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone after a long time, in

 6     which we have not seen each other.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Mr. Tieger or Mr. Waespi, I don't know who to address.  Are you

13     ready to --  is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, it is, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls

15     Mr. Erik Lennart Widen.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.

17             Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

18     courtroom.

19             No protective measures, Ms. Gustafson?

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I already raise the issue now that from

22     written submissions from the 13th, the 15th, and the 18th of August, it

23     appears that the Defence has no objection against the admission of the 92

24     ter statement.

25             MR. KEHOE:  That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 7309

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Widen.  Before you give evidence

 4     in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

 5     solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

 6     nothing but the truth.

 7             The text is now handed out to you.  Could you please make that

 8     solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  ERIK LENNART WIDEN

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Widen.  Please be seated.

13               Mr. Widen, you are not a native English-speaking person.  If

14     there would ever be any problem either in understanding or in expressing

15     yourself in the English language, which I assume is the language in which

16     you'll be examined and in which you will answer, please let me know.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Examination by Ms. Gustafson:

21        Q.   Mr. Widen, can you please state your full name for the record.

22        A.   Widen, Erik Lennart.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could the witness please be shown 65 ter number

25     5360, and if he could be provided hard copies of his witness statements.

Page 7310

 1        Q.   Mr. Widen, do you recognise the statement you see on the screen

 2     and the first one of the two that were just handed to you as a statement

 3     you made and signed on the 14th of December, 1995?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And could the witness now be shown 65 ter number

 7     5361, please.

 8        Q.   Mr. Widen, do you recognise the statement on the screen now and

 9     the second one of the two that were just handed to you as a statement you

10     made and signed on 26th and 27th of February, 2008, and in which you made

11     a number of corrections and clarifications to your earlier 1995

12     statement?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we please move to page 5 of this statement.

15        Q.   At the bottom of page 5 in paragraph 30, there's a reference

16     there to the policija station referenced in paragraph 15 above.  Should

17     that in fact be a reference to paragraph 29 above?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And can we move to the appendix page of this

20     document, please.

21        Q.   In paragraph 34 of this page, the first sentence says:  "The

22     looting in Knin went on for ten days from about 6 August to 16th August."

23             And is that 10-day period, is that an exact period of time or an

24     approximate period of time?

25        A.   I would say approximately.

Page 7311

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And with those corrections to these two statements

 2     taken together, are they true and accurate to the best of your knowledge?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And do the statements reflect what you said at the time they were

 5     taken?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And if I asked you in court today the same questions you were

 8     asked when you gave these statements, would you give the Court the same

 9     answers that are in those statements?

10        A.   Of course, yes.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I would like to tender these

12     statements into evidence, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, I take it also not

14     after the small correction just made by the witness, Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 05360 becomes Exhibit number

16     P721; and 65 ter 05361 becomes Exhibit number P722.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P721 and P722 are admitted into evidence.  Please

18     proceed.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour, and I would like also to

20     distribute to the Court and to each of the Defence teams hard copies of

21     the photograph of Knin that's attached to the witness's second statement.

22     The markings are hard to make out in e-court, and if I could read a

23     summary of the witness's 92 ter statement at this time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I take it that you have explained what the

25     purpose of this is?

Page 7312

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please proceed.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Erik Lennart Widen worked as an UNCIVPOL monitor

 4     in Knin between the end of June 1995 and approximately the 20th of

 5     August, 1995.  On the 4th of August, he was woken by the sound of

 6     shelling at 5.00 a.m..  He took refuge in a corridor of his apartment

 7     where he stayed until approximately 6.00 p.m. the following day, when he

 8     took shelter in a neighbour's apartment.

 9             Mr. Widen observed that the shelling ceased at approximately 1.00

10     p.m. on the 5th of August.  At approximately 3.00 p.m., he began hearing

11     tanks and small-arms fire and could hear soldiers shooting and breaking

12     down doors.

13             At approximately 7.00 on the morning of 6 August, Mr. Widen left

14     his neighbour's apartment and walked to the UN compound in Knin.  A few

15     hours later, he went on a foot patrol of Knin with another UNCIVPOL

16     official.  They saw soldiers driving military vehicles out of Knin that

17     contained television sets and furniture and saw members of the

18     Puma Brigade carrying goods that appeared to be stolen.  Mr. Widen saw

19     signs of shelling damage to several residential buildings in Knin.

20             Mr. Widen observed that the looting of Knin continued for

21     approximately ten days, beginning on the 6th of August.  A check-point

22     had been set up on the bridge over the River Krka in Knin by 7.00 a.m. on

23     the 6th of August.  The soldiers and police manning the check-point did

24     not stop the vehicles filled with goods that soldiers were driving out of

25     Knin.

Page 7313

 1             That completes the summary, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 4        Q.   Mr. Widen, I'd like to ask you a few questions about what's in

 5     your statements.  I will begin by asking you one or two questions about

 6     events in Knin prior to the 4th of August; Most of my question also be

 7     about events in Knin on the 5th and 6th of August, and I will ask a few

 8     questions at the end about events after the 6th of August.

 9             My first question is about the mobilisation in Knin that you talk

10     about at paragraph 43 of your 2008 statement.  You described seeing a

11     regiment of approximately 500 ARSK troops in Knin during a mobilisation

12     that took place; And I'd like that ask you, how long before Operation

13     Storm did this mobilisation take place, if you can remember.

14        A.   No, I can't remember, but -- no.

15        Q.   Do you have any recollection of what the extent of the presence

16     of ARSK troops was right before Operation Storm, in Knin?

17        A.   After Operation Storm, you saw no Serbian soldier.

18        Q.   Right before Operation Storm, do you remember what the presence

19     of ARSK troops was?  Like, on the 2nd and 3rd of August.

20        A.   What I saw was those who were sitting in the cafes in Knin.

21     There seems to be, let's say, not real soldiers but they were armed, and

22     then outside the school, I mentioned in my witness -- I saw about 500

23     soldiers, and among them, also, this man Mladic.  He was also there.  And

24     how many days, now, it is very difficult to say.

25        Q.   Are you saying that you don't remember exactly how many days this

Page 7314

 1     was before Storm?

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And in paragraph 50 of your 2008 statement, you

 4     describe how you heard the noises of vehicles leaving Knin on the night

 5     of the 4th, after the shelling had started, and you estimated that you

 6     thought about 80 per cent of the population left Knin on the night of the

 7     4th and during the 5th.  And I'd like to ask you:  In the two or three

 8     days before Operation Storm, did you see any organised movement of

 9     civilians out of Knin?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Did you see any significant numbers of civilians leaving Knin

12     before Operation Storm in those two or three days?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move now to --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, one of the previous answers seems to

16     create a problem.  Your question was the presence of ARSK troops.  The

17     witness first answered by telling us what was the situation after

18     Operation Storm.  Then you repeated your question, said, what, like, on

19     the 2nd and 3rd of August.  Then the witness gave an answer, and then at

20     the end he said, And how many days, it is difficult to say.

21             So I would like to know that the 500 people you were asking

22     about, was that at the moment you do not remember, or do you say it was

23     two or three days before Operation Storm, but I do not know whether it

24     was the 2nd or the 3rd; or was it longer ago?

25             THE WITNESS:  Let's say, between -- it could be ten days before.

Page 7315

 1     It could be three days before.  I can't remember it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When you're talking about the 500, you say it

 3     could be as many as ten days, but it could have been also two days.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Now it's clear to me.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 9        Q.   I'd like to move to events on the 5th and 6th of August.  In your

10     1995 statement at the second page, which is marked as page 1, and as

11     well, in paragraph 12 of your 2008 statement, you described how the

12     shelling stopped about 1.00 p.m. and that you began to hear the sounds of

13     tanks and small-arms fire at about 3.00 p.m.

14             Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the sounds of small-arms

15     fire that you heard?

16        A.   When I heard the fire from the small arms, it was down where I

17     lived.  It was a house with many apartments, and I heard the kick in the

18     doors, and immediately after they kicked the door, I could hear

19     machine-gun.

20             So that's the time when I recognised that Croatian soldier have

21     come into Knin.

22        Q.   You said you heard the kick of the doors, and immediately after

23     the kick you heard the machine-gun fire.  Do you remember approximately

24     how many times you heard that pattern?

25        A.   It went out for hours, so ... how many times I don't know.

Page 7316

 1        Q.   And where were you -- you were in your apartment at this time,

 2     according to your statement.  Where exactly in your apartment were you?

 3        A.   I was sitting on the floor near the chimney because if the

 4     grenade have come, I thought that was the best place to be.

 5        Q.   Mm-hm.  And when you heard the sounds of small-arms fire, did you

 6     hear anything to you that sounded to you like people were firing at each

 7     other or anything like an exchange of fire?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   In your 1995 statement on the second page, you describe how you

10     moved to the basement of your neighbour's apartment during the evening of

11     the 5th of August, and you describe how there were about 15 other people

12     in that basement and you say there were women, children, and some men.

13             Do you remember approximately how many of the 15 or so people

14     there were men?

15        A.   I can't remember that, but less than half of the people there.

16     Four, five men, perhaps.

17        Q.   And what was the atmosphere like in the basement with the other

18     15 people?  How were the people feeling?

19        A.   They were scared, and they asked for my protection, and I said I

20     do whatever I can, so I stay with them.

21        Q.   And at the second and third pages of your 1995 statement and at

22     paragraphs 15 to 20 of your 2008 statement, you describe how you left the

23     flat where you were sitting with the other people at 7.00 a.m. in the

24     morning of the 6th of August?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7317

 1        Q.   And then you walked to the UN headquarters in Knin, and you

 2     passed a check-point manned by HV soldiers on the way.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you describe seeing soldiers during this walk.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  I have to object to that.  The -- what he

 6     describes is a check-point that was manned by the military police and

 7     civilian soldiers.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I think at paragraph 47 the

 9     witness states that when he first passed the check-point it was manned by

10     HV soldiers in flat olive green fatigues, and then when he returned to

11     the check-point later that day it was manned by military police and

12     civilian police.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  My read of that was that he was

15     talking about the same set of people at the check-point, that these were

16     the people there going in, these were the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that, of course, now becomes a matter which

18     is -- the objection is denied, and I think it would have been a matter to

19     seek clarification in cross-examination rather than to start debating the

20     interpretation of what the statement actually said because the language

21     as quoted by Ms. Gustafson seems to be correct one, isn't it?

22             MR. KEHOE:  Well, then, Your Honour, then I would object to the

23     leading at that point because, I mean, I've let the leading go so we

24     could get through this expeditiously, but that was a clearly leading

25     question, so it --

Page 7318

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But isn't --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge, but I just want to put on the

 3     record that if I can't, you know, interject when I think there's

 4     something in error, then I would object to the leading.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I don't consider it leading to refer

 7     to a witness's statement that's already in evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I was wondering; therefore I was re-reading.

 9             Yes.  As a matter of fact, it might have been a superfluous

10     question because it just repeats what is already in evidence.  Mr. Kehoe,

11     would you agree to that?

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I actually -- I haven't

15     gotten to my question yet.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, sometimes what is superfluous can be a

17     way of introducing a next question.  I'm aware of that, but I tried to

18     get out of whether you misrepresented the statement of the witness,

19     whether it was a leading question, or whether it was just putting to the

20     witness what was already in evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Widen, I would like to ask you at this time, when you were

24     walking to the UN compound you describe seeing soldiers and you state in

25     your statement the soldiers were shooting all the time; whether for

Page 7319

 1     amusement or to frighten people, I can't say.

 2             And I would like you just to describe to the Trial Chamber the

 3     shooting that you observed when you were walking to the UN compound.

 4        A.   It was on the right side of the street.  It was a lot of houses,

 5     small houses, and outside those houses the Croatian soldier were sitting,

 6     and they were drunk, celebration, perhaps, that they have come to Knin.

 7     I don't know.

 8             But they start shooting when I walk, and I have the feeling that

 9     they want me to get down and beg for my life or whatever.  But I just

10     walk, and it was 700 metres I have to walk there, and -- yeah.

11        Q.   And where were they shooting?  Was the shooting aimed at

12     something?

13        A.   They were not -- I -- no hit and I didn't see any bullets on the

14     street or something, but -- over my head, but I was a little bit scared

15     because if you are drunk and shooting like that, you can also miss.  So I

16     was a little bit scared, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And in -- on the third and fourth pages of your 1995

18     statement and, as well, at paragraphs 47 to 49 of your 2009 statement,

19     you describe a foot patrol that you and your Sector Chief went on a

20     little later that morning, and you describe how you were stopped at the

21     same check-point that you had originally passed.  You have marked that

22     check-point with the letter K on the photograph attached to your

23     statement, and you describe seeing military vehicles driven with soldiers

24     leaving Knin, passing that check-point.

25             And I'd like to ask you, approximately how many of these military

Page 7320

 1     vehicles did you see during this hour or so you were stopped at the

 2     check-point filled with goods?

 3        A.   Let's say -- I'm not sure, but at least ten of them.  Ten

 4     vehicles were leaving at that time.

 5        Q.   And you explained that the vehicles were loaded with goods, such

 6     as TVs, videos, and furniture.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   How was it that you were able to see these goods in the vehicles?

 9        A.   It was open, and -- on the back on the vehicles and it was open,

10     so I could see -- I could see that it was goods going out, yes.

11        Q.   Were these vehicles trucks?

12        A.   Yes.  You can say truck, yes.

13        Q.   And at paragraph 48 of your 2008 statement, you state that at

14     this time the check-point was manned by military police soldiers and

15     civilian police.  Do you remember approximately how many people manned

16     this check-point at this time?

17        A.   On the first time when I came there at 7.00 in the morning, it

18     was two or three military guys there, and when we came back it was also

19     policija, so let's say six to eight people.

20        Q.   And you've described in the third and fourth pages of your 1995

21     statement and paragraph 22 of your 2008 statement how after you passed

22     the check-point you saw a lot of soldiers wearing the badge of the Puma

23     Battalion carrying goods.  What kind of goods did you see these soldiers

24     carrying?

25        A.   It was -- most it was TV and video and, also, furniture.

Page 7321

 1        Q.   And did you see what they were doing with the goods, where they

 2     were carrying them, what -- if they were putting them somewhere?

 3        A.   They put it onto the trucks, and then they were driving outside

 4     of Knin somewhere.

 5        Q.   And based on your observations, did the soldiers appear to be

 6     trying to hide what they were doing or were they acting more or less

 7     openly?

 8        A.   Openly.

 9        Q.   And did the soldiers react in any way to the presence of you and

10     your Sector Chief in Knin?

11        A.   Yeah.  They ask us -- told us that it could be mines, so we

12     shouldn't be there.  We should not be at the place because it could be

13     mines there, but we walked on, yes.

14        Q.   Did you see any activity that you could observe was aimed at

15     trying to locate mines?

16        A.   No, no.

17        Q.   And can you give the Trial Chamber an idea as to how many

18     soldiers you saw carrying goods in this way in Knin on the 6th of August?

19        A.   Hard to say.  If I say 50, it could be 100, it could be -- but at

20     least 50 of them.

21        Q.   And at the fourth page of your 1995 statement, you describe that

22     when you were at the policija station a man who claimed to be the chief

23     of military police told you you were not allowed to be there and took you

24     back to the UN headquarters.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7322

 1        Q.   Did he gave you any reason why you were not allowed to be there?

 2        A.   He said that no UN personnel were allowed to be outside, out in

 3     Knin.

 4        Q.   Did he tell you why?

 5        A.   No, no.

 6        Q.   And throughout the 6th of August, during your initial walk to the

 7     headquarters, the UN headquarters and during your later foot patrol, did

 8     you see any signs of any combat taking place in Knin?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And the soldiers that you saw on the 6th of August, did it appear

11     to that you they were on the alert for a possible combat or possible

12     enemy forces?

13        A.   No.  A lot of them were drunk, so I think they were celebrating.

14        Q.   And at the fourth page of your 1995 statement, after you arrived

15     back at the UN headquarters on the 6th, you describe how you observed

16     soldiers taking cars which refugees had used to arrive at the UN

17     headquarters.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw?

20        A.   At the HQ, I was standing at the gate and as soon as somebody

21     coming to -- for protection inside the camp, they put the car, and after

22     a while a soldier came, and they took the car and drive away.

23        Q.   And can you remember now approximately how many times you saw

24     this happen, a car being driven by someone to take refuge and a soldier

25     driving it away?

Page 7323

 1        A.   No, I can't say that, but we were talking about it inside, that

 2     it was not fair to steal like that.

 3        Q.   And now I'd like to ask you a few questions about events in Knin

 4     after the 6th of August.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, if you would you not mind, I'd like

 6     to seek some clarification on one of the previous questions.  That was

 7     your question about paragraph 48 of the 2008 statement.

 8             Mr. Widen, you answered a question as follows:  "On the first

 9     time when I came there, 7.00 in the morning, it was two or three military

10     guys there, and when we came back it was also policija, so let's say six

11     to eight people."

12             This answer suggests, at least in my understanding, that when you

13     came there, there were two or three military guys and that when you

14     returned that in addition to them, there was also policija.

15             Now, if I look at your statement in paragraph 47, you further

16     explain that the check-point was manned by HV soldiers.  In paragraph 48,

17     you explained that when you returned that it was then manned by military

18     police soldiers and police.

19             Now, it is not entirely clear to me what you saw when you

20     returned.  When you went, at least as what I understand from your

21     statement and your testimony, is that these were soldiers.  When you

22     returned, it appears from your statement and from your testimony that

23     there was policija; but were the soldiers replaced by military policemen,

24     or were there military policemen in addition to - if I could call it that

25     way - the plain soldiers that you had seen when you first passed this

Page 7324

 1     check-point?

 2             THE WITNESS:  It was not the same people when I came back.  It

 3     was other people there, and it was military police, military people and

 4     policija.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So when you came, it was one category --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- soldiers.  When you returned, it was soldiers,

 8     military police, and what you call policija?

 9             Thank you.  Please proceed.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   At paragraph 33 of your 2008 statement, you describe seeing

12     military vehicles loaded with goods going past the UN headquarters

13     everyday.  When you saw these vehicles go by, was there generally just

14     one soldier there each vehicle, was there generally more than one soldier

15     per vehicle, or was there no general pattern that you observed?

16        A.   Normally, it was a driver and some people in the back, on -- on

17     the vehicle.

18        Q.   And was it a mixture of soldiers and civilians or just soldiers?

19        A.   Soldiers.  Only soldiers.

20        Q.   And what kind of goods were these vehicles carrying?

21        A.   It was the same all the time, furniture and this electronic

22     equipment.

23        Q.   And are you able to estimate how many of these vehicles you saw

24     in total going past the UN headquarters?

25        A.   No, I can't.  It -- but you can count them in -- it must be

Page 7325

 1     around 50 to 100 vehicles.  It could be the same vehicles going and

 2     coming and reloading and coming back, I don't know, but it was many.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Now I'd like if the witness could be shown

 5     Exhibit D65, and this is an UNCIVPOL report dated the 12th of August,

 6     1995.

 7        Q.   It's drafted by you, Mr. Widen, and it's discussed at paragraph

 8     55 of your 2008 statement.  It should be on the screen now in front of

 9     you.  Do you -- are you able to see the document clearly?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And do you recall this incident?

12        A.   On the left side, I remember.

13        Q.   The left side is the -- is the English; the right side is a

14     translation.

15        A.   Okay.

16        Q.   So you can focus on the left-hand side.

17        A.   Okay.  Yes.

18        Q.   I'd like to ask you about this incident.  When you and your

19     UNCIVPOL colleague went into the house, what did you see?

20        A.   Inside, in the kitchen, on the chair, it was an older man sitting

21     dead, and it had start smelling.  And if I go inside the room there, it

22     was a younger man lying just close to the -- to the window, and he was

23     also dead.  And it was warm that day, so perhaps -- I don't know how long

24     they have been dead, but it smelled.

25             So what we have to do in that time where we have to inform the

Page 7326

 1     policija about this.  When we found any dead bodies, we have to inform

 2     the police about that, and they came to the spot, and then they told us

 3     we were lucky we didn't went inside because it was armed with the mines

 4     inside, and he also show us one mine in his hand.  But we know that that

 5     wasn't true because we have been there before, but we didn't tell him

 6     about that.

 7        Q.   When you say you didn't tell him about that, what didn't you tell

 8     him?

 9        A.   We just say, Thank you, and then we left the spot there.

10        Q.   Can I just ask you, you say that the policeman said that you were

11     lucky you didn't go inside.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   But you had been inside.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When the police arrived, were you still inside?

16        A.   No.  We were waiting outside.

17        Q.   And what did -- what was your overall impression of this scene

18     inside the house?

19        A.   I don't know if I have the right English word, but execution.

20     When you -- the man sitting on the chair, he was shoot -- shot where he

21     was sitting, and I think the younger man were trying to escape and he was

22     shot when he tried to escape.

23        Q.   Did you see any signs of bullet wounds?

24        A.   No.  This -- the bodies were -- let's say, when you have been

25     dead for perhaps a couple of days in that warm weather, it was not that

Page 7327

 1     easy to -- we didn't touch them.  We didn't try to know how -- how they

 2     got killed, but -- so this is something -- I can't say they were shot

 3     with one bullet or ten.  I don't know.

 4        Q.   And the report says that the bodies were taken to the hospital in

 5     Knin.  Did you see the bodies being taken out of the house?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   And were you ever able to confirm whether or not the bodies were

 8     taken to the Knin hospital?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And do you know why the report says that they were taken to the

11     Knin hospital?  Do you know where that information came from?

12        A.   If I remember right, the policija, when they came and took the

13     bodies, they told us, We will take them to the -- I think it was from

14     that.  I don't know.

15        Q.   And do you remember if there was anyone else from the UN with you

16     other than your UNCIVPOL colleague who is mentioned in this report when

17     you went to this scene?

18        A.   No, it was just --

19        Q.   Sorry, it was just the two of you?  Is that what you said?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.  I'd

22     just like to point out that the victims referenced in this report are

23     Killing Victims number 162 and 163 as numbered in the clarification that

24     the Prosecution filed on the 16th of July, and we've tendered the

25     documents associated with these victims in our 5th of August motion to

Page 7328

 1     admit killing-related materials from the Bar table.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Mr. Widen.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question to clarify one of your

 5     answers.  You were asked whether these were trucks and then you said, You

 6     could call them trucks.  What would you call trucks which are not trucks?

 7             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, but it's -- I know what -- in Swedish,

 8     we say "lastbil," but I don't know if anybody can speak -- but ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think as a matter of fact one of our legal

10     officers who is not a trained interpreter, but if the parties would not

11     object against Mr. Nilsson telling us in what he understands to be the

12     English for what the witness just said.

13             Mr. Nilsson, it's a truck?

14             That's a truck.

15             Could you give us -- could you give us an explanation as to a

16     truck is a vehicle which is designed for carrying goods or personnel,

17     more than just driver and one or two passengers.

18             Now, could you give us an impression of the size of the -- of the

19     part of the truck on which here, apparently, goods could be loaded.

20             THE WITNESS:  In the front, you normally have a place for one or

21     two -- two or three people sitting, the driver and someone else, and

22     that's it.  And then have you this long -- where you can put things on or

23     put soldiers or whatever.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what was approximately the length of that

25     part of the vehicle?  Was it three metres, which we would call a very

Page 7329

 1     small truck, or would it be six or seven metres?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Six or seven metres, yes.  It was -- those -- not a

 3     small truck.  It was medium, if I can say.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have seen larger ones, but you have seen

 5     smaller ones as well.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, yeah.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were most of these trucks, what was the --

 8     were they loaded heavily or slightly or ... could you give us an

 9     impression whether they were fully loaded or --

10             THE WITNESS:  Fully loaded, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Fully loaded.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Kehoe, are you first to cross-examine the witness?

15             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, I am.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Widen, you will now be

17     cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

18             Please proceed.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Widen.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Mr. Widen, I'd just like to ask you a couple of questions,

23     several questions on matters that didn't come up in direct but were

24     discussed in your two witness statements.

25             And the first I'd like to address is, I notice in your 1995

Page 7330

 1     statement - which, pardon me, is P721 - that you noted on paragraph 2

 2     that you had initially come to Sector South and you were in another

 3     station in Benkovac but that you had to close that statement, and you

 4     note that:  "During that time I was taken hostage for a few hours.  On

 5     the 1st of May, I lost seven vehicles which were seized at gunpoint by

 6     Serb soldiers."

 7             Do you recall that, sir?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And there was a degree of animosity between the Serbs and the UN

10     during this period of time, was there not?

11        A.   Can you explain that?

12        Q.   Well, the -- what were the Serbs doing to the UN personnel?  Why

13     don't we start that way.

14        A.   Normal people would have no problem with normal people, but you

15     have kind of soldiers -- as I told you, I saw the same people in Knin

16     later on.  I saw these people in -- in Benkovac and -- this seems to have

17     no in charge, if you understand what I say.  They were doing whatever

18     they liked to do, and they have a lot of arms, and I recognise one of the

19     guy.  He was like a Rambo, and he was the one who came into the station

20     and took me as a hostage for a couple of hours.

21        Q.   And did that include these Serbs stealing vehicles from the UN?

22        A.   They -- normally, at that time when he took hostage in the

23     station he left with two of our trucks, and before that it was -- we got

24     hijack on the roads.  They stop us, one in the front on the way, and then

25     we know that it's always one or two in the back, so if you try to back up

Page 7331

 1     and get away, we couldn't do that because they were shooting.

 2             So normally I just stopped the vehicle, went out, and give him

 3     the key.  That's --

 4        Q.   When this was transpiring, Mr. Widen, did -- after it happened,

 5     did you complain to the Serb authorities?

 6        A.   Of course, I went to the milicija station, and we always

 7     complained, but it seems to have no authority.  We told the -- the

 8     milicija, yeah, there can you see one of our vehicles.  Why can't you

 9     stop and give it back to us?  But he couldn't.

10        Q.   And why couldn't he?

11        A.   Because there were military people who was in charge, I think.

12        Q.   Well, was there a criminal element in this -- among these Serbs

13     who were taking this -- these items?

14        A.   I would say so, yes.

15        Q.   Now, let me address you to an UNCIVPOL report.  If I can pull up

16     P218.  Just for your reference, and it will come up on the screen, Mr.

17     Widen, is a UNCIVPOL report.  That was a report from 24 through 30 July

18     1995.  If you just look at that front sheet, and if we could go into the

19     fourth page.  And if we could just blow up that Sector South item at the

20     top.  And -- can you see that okay, Mr. Widen?

21        A.   Yeah, I can read it now.

22        Q.   Okay.  In the area at the top of the page under Sector South, it

23     notes that the Croat minority situation in this sector is seemingly worse

24     than that of the Serb minority in Sector West.

25             Do you remember Jan Elleby?

Page 7332

 1        A.   Oh, yes.

 2        Q.   And Mr. Elleby testified before this Court on May the 23rd, 2008,

 3     and at page 3469 he was asked this question after being read this same

 4     passage, and I can just start it from line 20:  "Now, if you can just

 5     take that top paragraph, Sector South there, it notes that in Sector

 6     South the Croat minority situation in the sector is seemingly worse than

 7     that of the Serb minority in south west.  Now, Mr. Elleby, had this

 8     pattern abuse of the Croat minorities gone on for some time as you

 9     understood the situation in Sector South?"

10             Answer:  "Yes, you could say that.  And also, there were a lot of

11     restrictions of movement, so from time to time we couldn't move into

12     certain areas as this paper shows.  In the end of July, we couldn't

13     actually move anywhere."

14             Now, was that your experience, sir, that the -- prior to

15     Operation Storm that the remaining Croatian population had a very

16     difficult time in Sector South at the hands of the Serbs?

17        A.   Perhaps they had.  We were helping them with food and visit them,

18     and -- but -- yeah, they have a hard time there, yeah.

19        Q.   And were they getting a hard time at the -- from the Serbs who

20     had -- who were in charge of the area?

21        A.   Yeah.

22        Q.   Now, let's move ahead just a bit.  I'll move -- staying on this

23     item on the screen, if we can just look to the first page.  If we can go

24     back two pages, please.  It's actually not the first -- one more page up,

25     I'm sorry.  And if we go down to that area, notes on Sector South.

Page 7333

 1             You see that on the bottom there, Mr. Widen?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And we note -- let me just get the last couple of sentences:

 4     "All CIVPOL patrols in the area have been suspended by the Sector Chief.

 5     UNCIVPOL stations at Knin, Korenica are being kept open with just two

 6     monitors and one interpreter.  Monitors have been advised to stay in

 7     their private accommodations to minimise the risk of hostage-taking."

 8             Staying with this exhibit, and let me just note a couple of items

 9     for you.  If we can move up on that same item, three more pages, and

10     again in that Sector South in -- in, yeah, paragraph 7.  That's correct.

11             Without reading it, if we can just look at that paragraph under

12     Sector South, it discusses the murder of a Kenyan battalion soldier and

13     the robbery of 80 litres of fuel that was witnessed by CIVPOL.

14             Now, this -- is this consistent with what you said before of this

15     criminal element within the Serb military?

16        A.   I can't recognise anything of this.  I haven't -- I haven't seen

17     before.

18        Q.   Well, you can take look at it, sir.  This is a UNCIVPOL report.

19        A.   From who?

20        Q.   From UNCIVPOL headquarters, and it's the weekly report, 24-30

21     July, 1995, where they chronicle each particular sector, and the

22     inclusion that we just had concerning the Kenyan battalion soldier that

23     had been murdered and the robbery of 80 litres of fuel is in the area

24     that is under Sector South?

25        A.   Mm-hm.  But about this murder, I didn't know that.  I haven't

Page 7334

 1     heard it.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well, sir, let me then -- let me go back to your statement

 3     itself and talk about some other items and specifically in your 1995

 4     statement, if I may.

 5             Could you look at the -- and you can look at this.  It's on your

 6     1995 statement, which is 721, paragraph 7.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  If we could bring that up on the screen.

 8        Q.   I think you have the hard copy before you, Mr. Widen, but we can

 9     wait for the screen if that's easier for you.  It's on page 4 of that

10     document, sir.  That's also on the screen if it is easier for you.

11        A.   Okay.

12        Q.   Now, we talked a little bit -- you talked a bit about this

13     criminal element among the Serbs that was in existence prior to Operation

14     Storm.  I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 7 at the -- we can

15     just read this.

16             "Prior to 4 August, there a lot of people living in Knin, and

17     according to our interpreters it was impossible to find a flat.  Schools

18     were functioning at all levels.  We had a civil police station beside a

19     big school where there were a large numbers of children until they broke

20     up for summer holidays.  The two markets were open for business.  There

21     was a particularly large range of products, but most of the shops were

22     open.  No banks were open, but a black' --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, did you misspeak?  I also heard what we

24     find on the transcript that there was a -- whereas the text you're

25     reading that it is it that there wasn't a particularly large range of

Page 7335

 1     products.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  I misspoke.  There wasn't.  There wasn't a

 3     particularly large range of products, but most of the shops were open.

 4     "No banks were open, but a black market was operating for money."

 5        Q.   Can you explain to us what this black market was, sir?

 6        A.   I -- I can't remember, but it probably was that if you like to

 7     have local money you have to change it with the civilian.  I can't

 8     remember this, not --

 9        Q.   Well, was there a black market for stolen goods in the Krajina

10     when you were there that the Serbs were buying and selling?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   There was not?

13        A.   No.  What I know.

14        Q.   That you know.  Well, let me turn our attention back to P218, if

15     I may, the fourth page in on 218.  And if I could go to the quality of

16     life of section, if we could just blow that up, number 6 at the bottom.

17             And in the middle of that paragraph, if I may, it notes that the

18     "forced closure of businesses not to mention the critical cut-off of the

19     Livno valley supply route is bound to have adverse socio-economic

20     affects.  The road through the Bosanski Grahovo was the main smuggling

21     pipeline to Knin, the alternative through Donji Lapac being more

22     long-winded."

23             Now, the main -- this main smuggling pipeline that this report is

24     referring to, Mr. Widen, do you know what was being smuggled through this

25     pipeline through Bosanski Grahovo?

Page 7336

 1        A.   I haven't seen -- this is it not what I have been written.

 2        Q.   No.  It is -- this is just a UNCIVPOL report --

 3        A.   Yeah.  But I haven't seen, and I didn't know that it was

 4     smuggled.  No, I didn't know that.

 5        Q.   Were you aware of organised crime elements in the Krajina prior

 6     to Operation Storm dealing in the black market and smuggling throughout

 7     Sector South?

 8        A.   No, no.

 9        Q.   I'm just going to shift gears and move to another topic, Mr.

10     Widen, so --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you put a question to the witness, and

12     just for me to better understand the question, you suggested although the

13     witness didn't know anything about it that there was a smuggling

14     pipeline, and what kind of things I have to -- I mean, what -- was it an

15     open question, could smuggling be anything, or --

16             MR. KEHOE:  I think -- I think it was virtually -- fuel.  I think

17     it was arms.  It was a variety of different things.  I don't want to

18     testify here, Judge.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I do understand.  But apparently you had an

20     idea of what you are --

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE: -- talking, the witness's comments, about, and I just

23     wanted to know what was on your mind.

24             MR. KEHOE:  And also in my mind was also furnishings, electronic

25     goods.  All of those things were smuggled back and forth at escalated

Page 7337

 1     prices with this --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you included both matters on which the

 3     witness has not testified in whatever way and including, also, matters on

 4     which the witness testified as goods being transported.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Well, first of all, Judge, the first matter on the

 6     black market for money was in his statement.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  But, of course, you then asked whether

 8     -- what he meant by that --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether it was goods, stolen goods or not.  I --

11     of course, it came to my mind that even money can be stolen.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Of course.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But that apparently was not what you were asking

14     about.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Well, I am asking for any type of black market

16     operations in any fashion.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Now, in addition to this, this is a UNCIVPOL report

19     talking about a smuggling pipeline, and Your Honour, you have been a

20     lawyer, as well as I do, long enough that smuggling has a certain

21     negative connotation that indicates that it's not legal --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. KEHOE:  -- or it has something torrid, so that was why I was

24     -- yes, this wasn't in his statement.  That's why I'd given this in a

25     UNCIVPOL report and he was from Sector South during this period of time

Page 7338

 1     given as explored.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness said he knew about the money, the

 3     black market -- the money, black market, and he said he didn't know

 4     anything else.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  I understand.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And I just wanted to know whether your questions

 7     were limited or whether they had a wider range, and they apparently have

 8     a wide -- a broad scope, yes.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  They have a wider range.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. KEHOE:  But the -- just for clarification, Your Honour, the

12     witness's knowledge is obviously limited in this regard, and I'm going

13     move off this topic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, of course.  No, it was just for my

15     understanding of what the question was specifically about.  Please

16     proceed.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

18        Q.   Now, if I may, just several matters, and I would like to touch on

19     a couple of your statements that you had -- in your 1995 statement in

20     paragraph 8, if you can go to that, sir.  That's page 4, paragraph 8.

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   You noted that the soldiers seemed very ill-disciplined, and

23     there were a lot of shooting at night, and there was regiment in Knin and

24     there seemed -- they seemed to be better disciplined, but in town the

25     soldiers were often drunk.

Page 7339

 1             Tell us a little about this regiment in Knin that was more

 2     disciplined.

 3        A.   I don't know anything.  I said -- the guys I saw at this school

 4     yard, and the others were sitting in the cafes were more like they have

 5     some -- what they call the Black Tigers, I think, and it was more like

 6     people from that -- I don't know.  It was -- they were not disciplined,

 7     anyway, those who were sitting in a cafe.

 8        Q.   But the ones that were in the school, and I think that you

 9     designated this area as -- in your chart, if I may, if we can go to your

10     chart.  You put a letter around the area where that school was.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And what number -- what letter was that?

13        A.   Let's see now ... it's hard to remember now how ...

14        Q.   We can clarify it later, Mr. Widen, but this school where these

15     soldiers were, these are the 500 soldiers you were talking about when the

16     Chamber was asking you about it, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And this was right next to the civilian police station?

21        A.   Exactly.

22        Q.   And they came to that location after school let out, didn't they?

23        A.   Yes, when the children left for summer vacation, so the soldier

24     took over the school, yes.

25        Q.   And without giving us an exact date, do you recall when they came

Page 7340

 1     to that school?

 2        A.   I can't say exactly, no.

 3        Q.   But these are the soldiers that you found to be more disciplined?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you ever learn that they were JNA -- or the Yugoslav troops

 6     from Serbia?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did you ever learn anything about where these troops came from?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   What indicated to you that they were more disciplined than the

11     other troops in town?

12        A.   Let's say they have different uniforms, and it seems that they

13     have some people in charge, and -- just the feeling I have.

14        Q.   Now, you noted in your testimony at -- this is page 31 at line 4

15     that they were called the Black Tigers.  Is that right?

16        A.   I think it was the Black Tigers, yes.

17        Q.   And do you recall what their uniform looked like?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   When you say "Black Tigers," are you referring to Arkan's Tigers?

20        A.   I think -- because -- I think Arkans have a camp outside

21     Benkovac.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, you're on your feet, but I don't hear

23     you, so I do not know how to interpret the situation.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I was just waiting for a moment.  I'm sorry to

25     interrupt.  I just was wondering if the question was suggesting that the

Page 7341

 1     Black Tigers were the same unit that the witness was referring to as the

 2     500 stationed at the school, and that's not how I interpreted his earlier

 3     answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but as I earlier said, a debate on the

 5     interpretation of the statement of the witness is not -- if there is any

 6     misrepresentation of the statement of the witness, then perhaps without

 7     explaining in the presence of the witness what you are talking about,

 8     refer, perhaps, the Chamber to any matter where you say this misrepresent

 9     because it's inconsistent with what we find we find on page so-and-so,

10     line so-and-so.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I apologise.  I do think it might be

12     a misrepresentation, maybe unintentional or maybe it's my

13     misunderstanding.  It thought that --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would --

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Page 32, line 13 and 14, was a question referring

16     back -- I think there's a mistake, I think it's page 31, that this unit

17     was called the Black Tigers.  If you go back to page 31, line 4, I

18     believe the Black Tigers was not referring to this regiment at the

19     school.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Nevertheless, and again, if you want to

21     explain clearly why it is it misrepresented, do it in such a way that the

22     witness is not put on notice on what you consider is the right

23     representation, but just draw the attention of the Chamber to pages,

24     paragraphs, or lines, and then we'll read them and then we'll see whether

25     there's any ground for the objection.

Page 7342

 1             Page 3, line 4, you're talking about the first statement, the

 2     1995 statement?

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It was all in the transcript, Your Honour.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Line 31.  It was page -- page 31 --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  But then if you go back to page 3, in line 4

 6     -- page 3, line 4 stands for ...

 7             MR. KEHOE:  It should be page 31.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Page 31, line 4, of the transcript.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's page 31, line -- yes.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I can easily clarify and just ask the

11     question.  It may be easier.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If -- yes.  If it's clearer to you than it is to me,

13     Mr. Kehoe, please, yes.

14             MR. KEHOE:  I can just ask the question again and, you know, to

15     the extent there's any ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. KEHOE:

18        Q.   Sir, you mentioned there were 500 soldiers, the well-disciplined

19     soldiers at the school.  Were those the soldiers that you believed were

20     named the Tigers?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Those are -- there's a different group.  Now, what were the

23     soldiers at the school known as, if you know?

24        A.   I don't know, but they were not the Tigers because the Tigers,

25     they were working, let's say, for themselves.  So these people in the

Page 7343

 1     school yard were, I would say, normal soldiers.

 2        Q.   Now, the element that you described as the Tigers, where were

 3     they?

 4        A.   I don't know if those who were sitting in the cafe I said and

 5     were drinking a lot, if those guys belonged to the Tigers, I don't know.

 6     I don't know.  But -- no, I don't know that.  But the Tigers have a camp

 7     outside of Benkovac, that I know.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, for one moment, Your Honour.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   Now, this element that -- this element of the Tigers that was

12     outside of Benkovac, was that Arkan's Tigers?

13        A.   So I was told.

14        Q.   Now, earlier in your testimony at page 6 at line 17, you said

15     that you saw Mladic in Knin.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And tell us about you seeing Mladic in -- General Mladic in Knin.

18        A.   It was at the school yard, and he was standing in the middle of

19     his soldiers there, and I recognise him because of the special hat, and

20     we were talking about him at the HQ, so I saw him there, yes.

21        Q.   And when you say the school yard, this is the same location where

22     these well-disciplined troops were?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And approximately when was this?

25        A.   Didn't I write that?  I think I have been writing down that I saw

Page 7344

 1     Mladic somewhere.  I think so.  So that should be -- but I can't say.  It

 2     should be in July.

 3        Q.   Would it be towards the end of July, approximately, say, the 30th

 4     of July?

 5        A.   I can't say.

 6        Q.   Now, during this period of time -- let me read you something,

 7     again, from Mr. Elleby, and this is it at page 3474, line 9.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, I'm not exactly sure where this is going,

11     but if it's similar to the previous question that was asked where this

12     witness was read portions of someone's else's evidence on the matter, I

13     thought that there was an understanding that before that stuff was taken

14     that the witness could simply be asked about the matter, and then if it

15     was necessary for whatever reason, the other witnesses's statements or

16     evidence could be put to him.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I think that was the guidance.  Of

18     course, I do not know what you're going to ask --

19             MR. KEHOE:  No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but if it was what Ms. Gustafson was --

21             MR. KEHOE:  That has not -- that has not been the practice, and

22     certainly, that has not been a practice that's been followed by the

23     Prosecution.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think, as a matter of fact, that when there

25     was -- when there were objections that not first put to the witness what

Page 7345

 1     other witnesses have testified but, rather, first ask the witness about

 2     the event and then if there's any need to tell the witness that someone

 3     else has testified in a similar way or in a different way; that's at

 4     least the guidance for this moment if that was on your mind.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Well, towards the end of July, a few days in July and up to the

 8     end of July, did you observe more and more military vehicles and more and

 9     more uniformed personnel in Knin?

10        A.   Yes, I did, and, also, I saw some people I know from Benkovac,

11     milicija guy, the chief of the milicija in Benkovac at that time, and he

12     was dressed in uniform now, so some kind of mobilisation, I would say it

13     was.

14        Q.   And likewise, you noted in your 1995 statement P721 on

15     paragraph 8, and you can take a look at that, sir, you note in

16     paragraph 8 that during July, when you moved to Knin, there were many

17     Serb soldiers and a lot of military convoys also passed through town.

18             The next sentence says, "For the most part the soldiers sat in

19     the cafes always carrying their weapons."

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   The next sentence: "I saw a number of tanks passing through Knin

22     a few days before the assault."

23             Do you know where these tanks went to a few days before the

24     assault, and I assume you're talking about Operation Storm.

25        A.   I would say they were going through Knin and -- I can't say where

Page 7346

 1     they were going, but they just passed Knin.

 2        Q.   Now, going down a couple of other sentences in the same

 3     paragraph, you note:  "On some of the Nissan pickup trucks which were

 4     stolen from the UN, heavy machine-guns or rocket launchers had been

 5     mounted."

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know what type of rocket launchers these were?

 8        A.   No, but I can see a different machine-gun, and when you have

 9     these like missiles, missiles --

10        Q.   Missiles, yes.

11        A.   Missiles.  A small one of those, I would say it was.

12        Q.   And they were on the back of trucks?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And did you observe them driving around?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you know where they were going?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And how many of these trucks with -- with rocket launchers on the

19     back did you see?

20        A.   Two or three.

21        Q.   And how about trucks with heavy machine-guns?

22        A.   I would say all the trucks that had been stolen from UN have --

23     have a machine gun on the back, yes.

24        Q.   And how many approximately are we talking about?

25        A.   I got lost around seven in Benkovac, so I can't just answer for

Page 7347

 1     that.

 2        Q.   To your knowledge, were UN vehicles in other areas of

 3     Sector South taken from UNCIVPOL?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And did they likewise have either machine-guns or rocket

 6     launchers on the back?

 7        A.   I can't say.  I saw it in Benkovac, and I saw it in Knin, but --

 8     I went, also, to Obrovac, but, no, I can't remember if I saw any there.

 9        Q.   Do you recall the fall of Grahovo when the HV defeated the ARSK

10     and Bosanski Grahovo fell in late July of 1995?

11        A.   Can you take that again?

12        Q.   Are you familiar with the city of -- or the town of

13     Bosanski Grahovo?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   It is up north, I guess, north-east of Knin and had been taken by

16     the HV on approximately 28 July 1995.  Are you aware of that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Well, would you agree, sir, that towards the latter part of July

19     in Knin people started to get very upset about HV victories against the

20     ARSK.  Do you recall that?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Now, let us talk a little bit about people leaving Knin, and I

23     know you talked a little bit about that with the Prosecution.

24             If I could -- if I may, ask you to take a look at -- well, sir,

25     prior to -- the night prior to Operation Storm, did you know anything

Page 7348

 1     about people leaving Knin in an organised fashion?

 2        A.   I can't say what happened during -- it started there at 5.00 in

 3     the morning, and I was inside my house all the time until I went to this

 4     guy Boris so ...

 5        Q.   I'm talking about the night prior to that, prior to Operation

 6     Storm.

 7        A.   Oh, yeah.  Mm-hm.

 8        Q.   Do you know of the Serbs leaving in an organised fashion?

 9        A.   Organised, I don't know, but some were leaving, yes.

10        Q.   Let me read you -- if I could bring Exhibit 514, page 2.  This is

11     an interview given by then-Major Claude Bellerose of -- he's a Canadian

12     major stationed in UN Sector South, and if I could go to -- excuse me,

13     did I say -- D514.  I apologise.  D514.  Now if we could go to the second

14     page, the left-hand column towards the top.

15             On the third line down, the question going to Major Bellerose:

16     "When did the bombardment of the city itself begin?"

17             Mr. Bellerose notes: "I believe it was 5.00 in the morning on the

18     4th of August."

19             Question:  "Then they began to shell Knin immediately?"

20             "Yes."

21             "But -- okay.  But then the flood of refugees continued into

22     Knin, correct?"

23             "Well, on the refugee side a lot of people from Knin fled that --

24     that night just before the bombardment, just like someone had given them

25     a heads up and they fled.  It was apparently well organised."

Page 7349

 1             Are you familiar with that, sir, of people leaving?

 2        A.   No, no.  I mean, perhaps he was on the streets so he can see it,

 3     but I was inside, so I can't answer that question.

 4        Q.   Now, in your 1995 statement, and I just want to take us forward,

 5     you noted in paragraph 3 -- this is on the second page of paragraph 3:

 6     "During Friday night, I could hear the noise of many vehicles.  The

 7     neighbour on the block above left his car.  There were three occupants in

 8     it as well as loads of luggage, so I gathered they were fleeing."

 9             You clarified, oh, you said something further, that you're -- in

10     P722 at paragraph 50, and that's your 19 -- or excuse me, 2008 statement,

11     where you clarify that, and you noted:  "As far as I could tell, most

12     civilians, around 80 per cent, left during Friday night and during the

13     day on Saturday."

14              Now, did you observe that, sir, or did you just hear it?

15        A.   I just hear it.

16        Q.   Now, the heaviest shelling was in fact in the early morning hours

17     of the 4th, is it not?

18        A.   Yes, and also the same in the morning of the 5th.

19        Q.   And you heard these individuals leaving on the -- beginning on

20     the evening of the 4th, the Friday night?

21        A.   The shelling started at 5.00 on the 4th, and this evening there

22     were -- I heard the noise about people leaving, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you D137, if I may.

24             MR. KEHOE:  If I could just cover this one document before the

25     break, Your Honour.  I think we're almost at that time.

Page 7350

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Widen, this is an order by President Milan Martic of the

 2     Republic of Serb Krajina from 4 August 1995 at 16.45 hours, 4.45 in the

 3     afternoon, ordering the evacuation of the municipalities of Benkovac,

 4     Obrovac, Knin, Drnis, and Gracac.  Now, this is in the afternoon of the

 5     4th, and this before you heard people evacuating, isn't it?

 6        A.   It was later on the 4th, yes.

 7        Q.   When you were discussing these matters with the Prosecution and

 8     you came to your opinion where you were made aware of the fact that an

 9     evacuation order had been issued by the president of the Republic of Serb

10     Krajina --

11        A.   No.

12        Q.    -- in the afternoon of the 4th of August, 1995?

13        A.   I haven't seen this before, no.

14        Q.   So you know nothing about this?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Widen.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, this is the usual time for a break.

18             Could we get any indication as far as timing is concerned, Mr.

19     Kehoe?

20             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I should move through this in an hour, I

21     think.  I really -- a lot of -- if I may, Judge, just by clarification a

22     lot of -- if the witness says "I don't know" about something, that

23     certainly will cut things down.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, I do understand that that would

25     shorten the cross-examination.

Page 7351

 1                 Mr. Kay.

 2             MR. KAY:  I have no questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, zero to half an hour, depending on

 5     what happens.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Then we'll have a break, and we'll resume at quarter past 4.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.  Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. Widen, I'd like to direct your attention to the portion of

13     your statements that talks about the actual shelling of Knin, and if we

14     could turn our attention back to your 1995 statement, P721, at paragraph

15     6.  I believe it's in the just prior pages, at the bottom of 6.

16             And you note that -- at paragraph 6:  "My assessment after having

17     walked around Knin is that most shells had landed in the residential

18     areas.  As far as could I see, no public buildings had been hit."

19             And you gave us -- and by the way, Mr. Widen, how many times did

20     you actually travel around the city of Knin after Operation Storm to make

21     these observations?

22        A.   Five or six times.

23        Q.   And I think you also noted that you didn't go to the eastern part

24     of town.  Is that right?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 7352

 1        Q.   But let us just look at the -- you gave us a map that is before

 2     you that has the areas that have been designated as being hit by

 3     shellfire, and I took the liberty of putting them on a different map.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  And if I can bring up 1D43-0001.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, these are the areas, all of the areas that you circled

 6     in your map that was introduced by the Prosecution.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, if you would not mind that I intervene

 8     for a second.  I'm quite happy that you provide us with this map.  I hope

 9     that the Prosecution agrees with the way in which you've translated the

10     data on the other map because, Ms. Gustafson, if have you maps which in

11     print appear to be purple, red is, I must admit, together with blue the

12     worst colour you could use to do the markings.  It's almost impossible

13     for us to verify exactly where the markings are, so -- and this is not

14     the first time that we find those red markings on maps of the same

15     colour.  So if for the future the Prosecution would keep in mind that any

16     new map being marked, either the basic colour of the map to be different

17     or the markings to be in a different, while contrasting, colour because I

18     have even difficulties to verify whether what you have put on your map is

19     what we have on our maps.

20             Now, I take it, and I would be very happy if you could you

21     confirm the accuracy of what Mr. Kehoe presented to us.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I'm seeing it for the first time now

23     on the screen.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then perhaps take your time, and apparently --

25     you must be in a position to confirm it because you present the map, so

Page 7353

 1     apparently you are able to see where the circles are, and I verified with

 2     the other judges.  We apparently all three are of an age that it becomes

 3     too difficult to -- to look at this, and I apologise for my colleague to

 4     the left.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, you don't have to apologise.  I'm that age

 6     too.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I do not apologise -- Mr. Kehoe.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I understand.  I understand.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, and we expect a confirmation by the

10     Prosecution and, again, it's an appreciated that you give it to us now in

11     a more legible form.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Mr. Widen, do you understand what I tried to do?  I tried to

14     transpose it on a map.  Okay.  If we could go to the next map.

15             These locations I have designated are the areas in your witness

16     statement where you have stated to the Prosecution that you observed

17     shell damage, and I have taken out areas that -- where you didn't say

18     there was any shell damage such as in the cemetery, which is L, and other

19     areas where there -- you did not discuss the shell damage.  Okay, sir,

20     are you with me?

21        A.   Yeah.

22        Q.   Okay.  And the area of red will become significant for you in a

23     moment.  I do want to say to you, by way of clarification, in your

24     designation of where you lived in your 1995 statement, you noted that you

25     lived on L. Marunda 32 in Knin.  Do you recall that?

Page 7354

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And I will tell you, I submit to you that that is the designation

 3     that I have as listed there as the house of Nada Stabac as well as the

 4     house of Boris Kupovic which is very nearby?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   If we can go to the next slide.  Sir, I'm not going to go through

 7     these seriatim but I just ask you to you take a look at these.  Just take

 8     a moment.  I realize this is not something that you've seen before, but

 9     these are the locations, and I have interposed government and military

10     infrastructure items over it that have previously been received in

11     evidence.  And as can you see from the various numbers, the As are ARSK

12     troops bases and barracks; the B numbers are command and control and

13     power; C numbers are anti-aircraft units; the D numbers are military

14     industry and depots; and the E numbers are transportation infrastructure.

15        A.   Okay.

16        Q.   Just take a moment and just take a look at them and try to

17     familiarize yourself with it.

18             Now, looking at this, sir, is it your testimony that looking at

19     all of these various and -- that no public buildings were hit during the

20     shelling of Knin on the 4th and 5th?  Is that your testimony?

21        A.   I said as long as I know, I saw no hit to public buildings.

22        Q.   Well, let us turn to the -- and let me just look at the slides

23     here, which is B1, which is the ARSK main headquarters; B2, which is the

24     ARSK -- it's part of the Defence ministry; B3, ARSK office accommodation,

25     and even before this, another item, which is a commander-in-chief

Page 7355

 1     residence.

 2             If we can go to the next -- oh, that's good.  I can see that

 3     better.  If we can go to the next slide.

 4             Sir, this is a blow-up of your area of your residence you

 5     designated in the map as A.  I have put the address of L. Marunda 32 at

 6     its proper location to the right of A as well as Boris' house, which is

 7     also to the right of A.  Now, you're familiar with this location, are you

 8     not, sir?

 9        A.   Yes, I am.

10        Q.   Are you familiar with the area there that's B1, which is the

11     headquarters of the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina?

12        A.   I think it was that building during the night I could hear a

13     diesel motor going.  I don't know, but I -- from my place I could hear

14     diesel going through the night for --

15        Q.   Now, this building, I mean, obviously it's approximately less

16     than -- at least part of that facility is less than 50 metres from your

17     residence.  In the morning of the 5th, did you hear shells being --

18     hitting the RSK headquarters?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You did not?

21        A.   No.  Let me tell you that -- the shelling, I was keeping my head

22     down, so I couldn't see, let's say, where -- that I heard from later on

23     when you hear these shelling coming, it's a sound, and when you hear it,

24     you can sit there, but if you don't hear it, you should go down because

25     then the shelling will coming for you.

Page 7356

 1        Q.   Let me -- given your location and you were at -- in your

 2     residence on the 4th when the shelling took place; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you were in your residence the entire day of the 4th.  Is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And is it your testimony that you were unaware of B1, the ARSK

 8     headquarters, being hit?

 9        A.   Have I said that I saw that this was hit?

10        Q.   No, I'm asking you, sir, were you aware that it was either

11     through sound or hearing or in some other fashion?

12        A.   No.  No.

13             MR. KEHOE:  If I might have just one moment, Your Honour.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   Now, you noted -- I'm sorry.  You noted during the correspondence

17     of your testimony or just now, be that as it may, that you heard a diesel

18     engine running.  Is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And what did you think that that was supplying power to?  Did you

21     have any idea?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   I mean, was it trucks or was it equipment --

24        A.   No, no, no trucks.  It could be for electricity, I would -- I

25     don't know.

Page 7357

 1        Q.   Were you aware, sir, that during this period of time the -- if we

 2     look just a little further north that the railway facility, for instance,

 3     around E 8 was hit by -- by -- during the artillery attack?

 4        A.   I couldn't see anything there.

 5        Q.   Well, did you hear it?

 6        A.   Yes, but if you hear and you're sitting inside here, for example,

 7     and you hear the shelling outside you can't see where it goes.

 8        Q.   How about these other RSK facilities which were approximately 150

 9     to 200 metres from you, and I'm talking about B2 and B3 over to the left?

10     Did you hear -- hear, now, did you hear those buildings being hit by

11     artillery fire?

12        A.   No.  I can't say I hear any building got hit.  I thought later

13     on, but it's impossible to sit inside and say, Oh, he hit -- they hit

14     this house or something.  I can't say that.

15        Q.   So, sir, let me understand you well.  When you said in your

16     statement that -- and I go back to your statement, P721, paragraph 6, you

17     say as far as you could see no public buildings were hit.  You're just

18     saying you didn't see them being hit.  You're not saying that they

19     weren't hit?

20        A.   What I'm writing there is what happened later on when I went

21     outside and walking around.  So this is not from the 4th or the 5th.  It

22     must be later on when I was outside.

23        Q.   Well, let me show you -- okay.  Let me show you, just before we

24     get to that, D389.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender 1D43 0001.

Page 7358

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, but first, Ms. Gustafson.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If the Prosecution could just have a day or two

 3     to review the locations and verify the accuracy compared to the witness's

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, way of two might be a bit -- you

 6     presented very unclear maps.  Therefore, I think -- and since the witness

 7     will leave us today most likely ...

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I can review it in the break, Your Honour, and

 9     get back to you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you, please, will do that, and then we'll

11     see how far you come.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar, that would be?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number

15     D718 marked for identification.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now just for my information, Mr. Kehoe,

17     that's the blown-up version or the --

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's the --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Just the blown-up version.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Just the blown-up version.  That's right.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The other one being an introduction rather than ...

22             MR. KEHOE:  That's right, sir.  I just tried to put it in

23     perspective and then blow it up.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. -- let me just see.  D719, we'll take a

25     decision on that once we have heard from the Prosecution after the break.

Page 7359

 1     Of course, you are missing the agenda, but we have this agenda on other

 2     maps that are -- other photographs which are already in evidence.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it that the numbering is fully consistent

 5     with what we have seen earlier.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  It is consistent with the addition -- I will tell

 7     you, I put in the addition of the items that the witness put in, which is

 8     the school, which had the soldiers in it, which had not been designated

 9     the prior to that time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand.

11             MR. KEHOE:  And that would be, Judge --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And the school would be, anyhow, on the

13     Prosecution's map.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. KEHOE:  It's on the Prosecution map.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the locations where people were living, I

18     think, as a matter of fact do not appear, the -- Boris' house, and these

19     are new, as well, isn't it?

20             MR. KEHOE:  That's correct, Judge.  Those two we put on with

21     using the witness's address and, also, with Boris's address.  We made

22     that more accurate than the rather global A point that the witness put

23     in, which he did some 13 years --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you take the witness back for one

25     second to these houses so as to ask him to identify whether they're

Page 7360

 1     located -- his own apartment being in the centre of the circles.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  If we can --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that is what he already testified, but let's

 4     just make that for once and forever sure, perhaps the blown-up version.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  The blown-up version, Judge.  This is the blown-up

 6     version, Your Honour, the green give -- taken from the witness's address,

 7     which he puts on page 1 of his statement in 1995, P721.  He addresses L.

 8     Marunda 32 in Knin, and the -- checking the address logs, that's in fact

 9     the address, and the individual he identified as Boris is living in the

10     -- the green square just to the left.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's at least what we now have to ask the

12     witness.

13             Could you confirm that the small green feature just in the middle

14     of the concentric circles, is that the apartment building in which you

15     lived?

16             THE WITNESS:  It seems so, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the green rectangular feature just left

18     of that on the radius, 50 metres line, is that --

19             THE WITNESS:  That's the --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the building where the person you called Boris

21     was living.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have identified that.  I think that would

24     for the moment do.

25             MR. KEHOE:  May I just clarify on the record, Judge.  This is a

Page 7361

 1     4-page document.  If we can go to prior page, certainly, we're putting

 2     all four pages in.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No further questions were put to the witness

 4     in respect of these apart from whether this was the -- and that's for the

 5     Prosecution to verify whether the markings are the same as on the

 6     original marked aerial photograph.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You said four pages?

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yeah.  The other two pages were, again -- if we could

10     go to page 1 and page 2 just to put Your Honour --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, that's the whole with the agenda?

12             MR. KEHOE:  Correct, Your Honour.  It wasn't really an agenda.

13     It was just this -- these are the items, and the next page are the ones

14     -- we took out the ones that were non-shelling-related per Mr. Widen's

15     testimony, if we can go to the next line, because he does discuss things

16     that are not shelling-related which aren't pertinent.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For the first three, of course, it's important

18     that he -- that the Prosecution verifies whether the markings which have

19     been reproduced on this map in a slightly different way, whether these

20     are the same markings as we find on the map marked by the witness, and

21     now, therefore, it's not only the blown-up version but all four pages.

22             MR. KEHOE:  All four, Your Honour, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We will, then, decide on that.  Mr. Registrar, D719

24     would then be all four pages.

25                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 7362

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that it's actually 718, D718, four

 2     pages.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  We were talking about D389.  If we

 5     could bring that back on the screen.

 6        Q.   Mr. Widen, this is an ARSK intelligence report from the morning

 7     of the 4th of August, 1995, and if I could turn your attention basically

 8     to the centre of this page.  It says:  "Knin was attacked ..."

 9             If you could focus your attention on that.

10        A.   Yeah.

11        Q.   And it notes that this is coming from the ARSK themselves, that

12     Knin was attacked from Livanjsko Polje from several directions by the

13     time this information was drafted, between 200 and 300 rounds of

14     different calibres impacted on the town.  "The first strike was carried

15     out on the building SVK General Staff."

16             Now, sir, that's the building that is -- begins approximately 40

17     metres from your residence, which suffered great material damage with a

18     fleet of vehicles almost completely destroyed.  Did you see the parking

19     lot at any point behind the ARSK headquarters with the vehicles destroyed

20     in that parking lot that was very near your home?

21        A.   No, I didn't because it's close to my home, but you have a lot of

22     trees, so you can't look into it from my place.  It was a lot of trees

23     there.

24        Q.   Later, the -- it continues on:  "Later, the fire was transferred

25     on military barracks 1300 Kapalara."  Are you familiar with shells

Page 7363

 1     landing either on the barracks that were in town or the barracks that

 2     were outside of town, the northern barracks?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   The next is the Tvik factory.  Do you know where the Tvik factory

 5     is in town, sir?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   You don't know where that is?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Did you see during this time big plumes of black smoke coming out

10     of a factory in the centre of town?

11        A.   I didn't think about that, no.

12        Q.   And obviously, you know, we talked about the railway

13     intersection, that you didn't see any shelling at the railway

14     intersection.  Is that right?

15        A.   Let's say from my -- when you're driving a car or walking, you

16     can't see -- I mean, it is a big area, and if it was an impact there, I

17     can't say.  But I didn't see it.

18        Q.   So, again, if we can clarify it, you're not saying it didn't

19     happen; you just didn't go inside those facilities to see if they had in

20     fact been shelled?

21        A.   Let's say we were not allowed to go wherever we want to go at

22     that time.

23        Q.   Let me show you another item, which is a -- P214, which is a

24     statement by Mr. Elleby.  Now, did you talk to Mr. Elleby, you know,

25     during this entire time when you were working together at CIVPOL?

Page 7364

 1        A.   I met him, let's say, two years later in Copenhagen.

 2        Q.   When you were still back at Sector South, at the headquarters in

 3     Sector South when you folks were all together, did you discuss matters

 4     with Mr. Elleby and the other CIVPOL members?

 5        A.   Of course we did, but I can't remember some special thing, no.

 6        Q.   Well, let me go -- this is a -- Mr. Elleby's statement on 17

 7     September 1995.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the next page, and the second

 9     paragraph, if we can just blow that up second paragraph a bit.

10             It notes:  "After 8 August 1995, he" - being Mr. Elleby -

11     "noticed the most destruction had occurred in the areas around the Serb

12     military barracks and the government buildings.  Some areas in Knin

13     seemed being nearly unharmed by the shelling.  F," - I think, for example

14     - "the area near the Knin hospital was nearly unharmed."

15             Did you have discussions with Mr. Elleby where he shared these

16     types of observations with you?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Now, the Prosecution during the course of their -- the briefing

19     of you showed you P228, which is a UN assessment.

20             MR. KEHOE:  If we can bring that on the screen.

21        Q.   By the way, Mr. Widen, do you have any reason to question the

22     conclusions by Mr. Elleby?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Now, if we turn our attention to this document, this is a

25     document that you said -- that you had -- you told the Prosecution that

Page 7365

 1     you had not seen until they showed it to you.  Is that right?

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And in the second paragraph -- by the way, are you

 4     familiar with the individual who wrote this?

 5        A.   I know Thor Hansen.  I know him.

 6        Q.   Well, this one is Steinar Hagvag.

 7        A.   He is also a Norwegian.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And he notes in the second paragraph:  "We cover the whole

 9     township, observed several impacts of shells and rockets around the Tvik

10     factory, the military headquarters, the general direction of the northern

11     barracks, shells coming from north-east and government house, the Knin

12     radio/TV building, and the hillside below Knin."

13             Now, did you notice shelling damage on any of these locations as

14     Mr. Hagvag writes here?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Did you ever discuss this with him?

17        A.   No.  Let's say I was not that many days in, and I was looking

18     into my own area and saw some houses who blown up there, and this is --

19     perhaps they have order from higher up to make this observation, but not

20     for me.

21        Q.   Now --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I just wanted to point

24     out that the question was, Did you note shelling on any of these

25     locations that Mr. Hagvag writes here.

Page 7366

 1             The report says --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  This is cross-examination.  I'm asking

 3     him about these locations.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, the report says that Mr. Hagvag observed

 5     several impacts of shells around the certain locations, and I'm -- just

 6     think that's not precisely the same.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Locations have, then, to be understood as areas

 8     around the specifically mentioned objects, that is the Tvik factory,

 9     milicija headquarters, and it goes even without saying if we're talking

10     about the general direction of north barracks, that already refers to

11     general directions.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KEHOE:

14        Q.   Well, did you see shelling around these particular locations?

15        A.   No.  I can't remember that.

16        Q.   So when you told that the Prosecution, "I have never seen this

17     report before, and I" -- this is in paragraph 27 of P722:  "I have never

18     seen this report before, and I did not participate in this assessment.  I

19     cannot recall anyone mentioning this assessment or its findings.

20     In reviewing the assessment, I note that there is no mention of impacts

21     directly on any of the facilities referenced but only observations of

22     shell impacts around these areas, which is consistent with my

23     recollection."

24             Now, I just asked you whether or not if you heard or you observed

25     shelling around those locations and you said no.  So is what the

Page 7367

 1     Prosecute -- what was it written in this statement incorrect?

 2        A.   I'm not following you right now.  I'm --

 3        Q.   Well, the Prosecution typed -- wrote this, didn't they?

 4        A.   If you say so.

 5        Q.   No, I'm asking you, sir.

 6        A.   What is --

 7        Q.   It's your statement.  It's your statement in 2008.

 8        A.   Yeah, yeah.  That I have here.

 9        Q.   And your testimony before this Chamber is that you did not

10     observe any shelling around the Tvik factory, the military headquarters,

11     the northern barracks, the government house, the Knin radio or TV

12     station.  Is that right?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.  What I did was to mark on this map those

14     places where I saw shelling.

15        Q.   And you did not observe -- excuse me.  So when you told the

16     Prosecution, sir, that that -- in paragraph 27 that this report is

17     consistent with your observations, it's really not consistent with your

18     observations, is it, because you said that you didn't see shelling around

19     the Tvik factory, the military headquarters, the northern barracks,

20     government house, the Knin radio station; isn't that right?

21        A.   I will say -- I can't say that I saw any shelling there, and that

22     is it because I brought -- perhaps not visit these areas.

23        Q.   And that's because, as you noted in your paragraph 38 of 722, if

24     you look at paragraph 38:  "I never patrolled or visited east side of

25     Knin, including south-east to north-east."  Isn't that right?

Page 7368

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, you mentioned that Mr. Hjertnes was a Norwegian, and I think

 3     you also mentioned Steinar.  I mean, you knew Mr. Steinar Hjertnes, did

 4     you not, who was the Senior Military Observer?

 5        A.   I can't remember the name now, but Steinar, he was not in Knin

 6     when the Storm started.

 7        Q.   But you know that he was the senior UNMO?

 8        A.   Yeah.

 9        Q.   Let me show you P64.  Have you ever seen this document before?

10     This is a provisional assessment that was dated 18 August 1995 and signed

11     by the Senior Military Observer, Sector South, Mr. Hjertnes.

12        A.   No, I haven't seen this.

13        Q.   In paragraph 2, it notes that in general, shelling was

14     concentrated against military objectives.  The damage caused by shelling

15     to civilian establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of

16     military objectives.  Only a few, three or five impacts is observed in

17     other urban areas."

18             When you were in the Sector South headquarters, Mr. Widen, did

19     you discuss -- or was these conclusions discussed in and among the

20     various personnel in UN Sector South?

21        A.   No, not what I can remember.

22        Q.   Now, the -- you yourself never did a formal shelling assessment,

23     did you?

24        A.   What?

25        Q.   You never were assigned to go out and do a formal shelling

Page 7369

 1     assessment?

 2        A.   No, no.  No.

 3        Q.   You never wrote a report on it, et cetera?

 4        A.   No, no.

 5        Q.   Now, let me -- I'm sorry, I'm just -- I might take a break there.

 6     I'm just waiting for the translation to catch up, so ...

 7        A.   Okay.

 8        Q.   So just bear with me a second.

 9             Now, you mentioned several items in your statement, and talking

10     specifically about -- in paragraph 24, you noted that the -- this is of

11     your 2008 statement, 722, P722.

12             In the last sentence, you said you would like to clarify that

13     "the stolen UN pick-up trucks I saw with heavy machine-guns or rocket

14     launchers were not located at the school but were just driving around

15     Knin."

16             Now, turning your attention back to your 1995 statement, and I

17     will try to piece these items together, and we're talking about 721, and

18     we're talking about page 8 of your -- excuse me.  It should be

19     paragraph 8, I believe.  Paragraph 8.  That would be page 4.

20             You noted in -- towards the bottom of that page, and can you see

21     that sentence beginning:  "During that assault in the Knin ..."?  That's

22     in the bottom section of that paragraph.  Do you see that, sir?

23        A.   What do you mean?  How --

24        Q.   The sentence says, "During the assault on Knin, I heard noises

25     indicative of ..." Do you see that sentence?

Page 7370

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   It says, "During the assault on Knin, I heard noises indicative

 3     of missiles being launched and suggestion that there may have been some

 4     attempt to defend Knin."

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.

 6        Q.   And you wrote this in December of 1995?

 7        A.   So then it must be true.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And what you believed at the time was that the missiles

 9     that you heard were outgoing missiles being fired by the Serbs.  Isn't

10     that right?

11        A.   That was I was thinking here when I wrote this, but I'm not an

12     expert on this, so I can't ...

13        Q.   I understand, sir, that you're an expert, but when you were

14     sitting in your house on the 4th of August and you heard outgoing

15     missiles, you concluded that the outgoing missiles were coming from the

16     Serbs, didn't you?

17        A.   That -- I can't remember it now, but when I read it I can see it,

18     yes.

19        Q.   Yeah, so that was your conclusion?

20        A.   Yeah.

21        Q.   Now, sir, let me -- by the way, sir, in addition to -- and this

22     outgoing fire by the Serbs, you heard that on the 4th of August?

23        A.   If it's written here, I did, but I can't remember that now.

24        Q.   Could the diesel engine that you have -- that you heard, could it

25     have been operating a mobile rocket launcher?

Page 7371

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Do you know that the -- if the rocket launchers you observed were

 3     the missiles that you heard being fired out?

 4        A.   I can't say that, either, because what I saw was on the trucks,

 5     and I think they were ready to fire from the trucks.  I think so.

 6        Q.   Well -- and they were travelling around.

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   So you don't know exactly where they fired from?

 9        A.   No, no.

10        Q.   After the Serbs withdrew on the 4th, do you know of the Serbs

11     firing back into the Croats -- back into Knin on the Croats?  Do you know

12     anything about that?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know about any fire coming from Serb-held area onto --

15     excuse me, on Serb-held area onto the HV on the 5th?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Well, the shelling damage that you observed -- let me withdrew

18     that for a second.  If in fact the Serbs were firing at various locations

19     on the 4th as you concluded from your statement, and if there was firing

20     by the Serbs on the Croats into Knin on the 5th, the damage you observed,

21     you don't know who fired the weaponry that caused that damage, do you?

22        A.   Of course, I can't say that because I was sitting, hiding myself.

23        Q.   I understand, sir.  I'd be there too.  Believe me, I don't think

24     there's a person in this room who wouldn't be with you.

25             Now, if we can go back, if we can, to D718, and if I can go to

Page 7372

 1     the fourth slide on D718.  Now, sir, by the time the 5th of August rolled

 2     around, you were at Boris' house, were you not?

 3        A.   I came there around 1800.

 4        Q.   On what --

 5        A.   On -- the afternoon, yes.

 6        Q.   Yes.  And when you heard this kicking in of doors and going into

 7     various locations with shooting, was that on the 4th or the 5th?  That

 8     was on the 5th?

 9        A.   That was on the 5th around 1500.

10        Q.   And where were you?  You were in Boris's?

11        A.   No, I was in my apartment.

12        Q.   Now, when you were in your apartment and you heard this, this is

13     -- and taking this location, that would put you approximately 40 metres

14     away from the ARSK headquarters, wouldn't it?

15        A.   Yeah, if you say so.

16        Q.   So were these soldiers -- and I guess several hundred metres from

17     other military facilities such as B2 and B3.  Now, when the soldiers that

18     you heard going into rooms and when you heard small-arms fire after they

19     went in there, were they going into military facilities to clear military

20     facilities?

21        A.   I would say no because just to the right from my apartment down,

22     it was normal apartments, I mean people living there, and it was -- I

23     located the sound from this kicking doors and so on from that building.

24     And as far as I know, it was no military because I have seen people there

25     before, I mean, civilian people.

Page 7373

 1        Q.   So the -- the kicking in doors and the small-arms fire was in one

 2     building in that area.  Is that right?

 3        A.   It was a long building.  I don't know how many apartments, but it

 4     was that building that I could hear, yes.

 5        Q.   Well, what happened or what did you hear when the HV went into

 6     the ARSK military facility in B1, their headquarters?  What did you hear?

 7        A.   I can't say anything about that because I can't sit in my

 8     apartment and see down to -- if you say the military, I didn't know it

 9     was the military house there.  I didn't.

10        Q.   And that -- your answer would, likewise, be the same in the

11     facilities that we have designated as B8 or B2 or B3; is that right?  You

12     didn't hear anything when the HV went into those military facilities?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Now, on that same score, sir, as -- obviously you're not a

15     military man, but you would expect an army going into particular areas to

16     clear locations, wouldn't you?

17        A.   Yeah.

18        Q.   And that's a normal practice in the military.  Certainly, you

19     were seconded to the military for a period of time.  Isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the apartment buildings that you were -- that were being

22     cleared, do you know whether or not there were any ARSK personnel living

23     in those apartments?

24        A.   No, I can't say that now.

25             MR. KEHOE:  If I might have a moment, Your Honour.

Page 7374

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Just to clarify, sir, when you say you can't say that, you don't

 4     if ARSK personnel were in those buildings, do you?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Now, let me cover a couple of topics, sir, concerning the looting

 7     that you talked about on direct.  And -- by the way, I mean, on the

 8     trucks that you told us that were going out with items in there, do you

 9     know how much of the stuff that was taken out there had been taken out of

10     the military facilities like the Senjak barracks?

11        A.   If I say -- I don't know what kind of furniture they have in the

12     barracks, but I can't imagine that they have chairs like this and -- I

13     mean, not this, but, I mean, normal chairs where have you in your home.

14     No.  This was about the looting.  I'm 100-percent sure.

15        Q.   And, sir, I'm not questioning that you saw looting.  I'm not

16     questioning that at all.  I'm not questioning that you saw them driving

17     items out.  I'm not saying that.  I'm just saying that with some of the

18     items that -- there were military facilities in Knin.  You can't say from

19     some of those items whether or not any of those items came from military

20     facilities, can you?

21        A.   No, I can't.

22        Q.   Okay.  And when it came to that, that -- your observations that

23     soldiers being drunk in town and acting, in your belief, without

24     discipline, are you aware of anything that the commanding officers and

25     the HV did to attempt to bring order and control over those soldiers?

Page 7375

 1        A.   No, I don't think so.

 2        Q.   Now, when you walked out with -- and you were walking around with

 3     Norm Boucher.  Is that right?

 4        A.   Yeah.

 5        Q.   And you noted in your statement at -- and your statement, I'm

 6     talking about the 722, your 1998 statement at paragraph 29, that as of

 7     the morning of the 6th, the police station in Knin that you visited was

 8     up and running.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yeah, we saw policemen there, yeah.

10        Q.   And this was -- and you saw -- you went to the police station

11     after you had come through the checkpoint where the soldiers, the

12     military police, and the civilian police were located?

13        A.   Yeah, we went there -- from there, we went first to Norman's

14     house where he was -- had his accommodation, and that house was

15     completely blown up.  And from there, we went to an apartment, and he

16     said he will go inside to pick up something.  I think that was one of the

17     interpreters' apartment.  And -- but when he came up there, it was

18     military people inside this apartment, so he couldn't do this.  And then

19     we went up to the main road, and there you have the police station, the

20     former milicija station.  It was now a policija station.  And there, one

21     man came and said that, You are not allowed to be here, so he took us in

22     his car and took us back to the camp.

23        Q.   And the person who took you back to the camp was a military

24     policeman?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7376

 1        Q.   So --

 2        A.   He said he was the boss of the military police.

 3        Q.   So at this police station on the morning of the 6th of August,

 4     was both military police --

 5        A.   It was not in the morning.  It was -- because I came down to the

 6     camp, 7.00, and a couple of hours -- let's say 11.00, something -- 11,

 7     12.00.

 8        Q.   I know it's been a long time and these are estimates.

 9        A.   Yeah, yeah.

10        Q.   So around -- sometime midday on the 6th of August --

11        A.   Yeah.

12        Q.   -- there was a police headquarters that was manned both by

13     civilian police and by military police?

14        A.   As far as I can see, yes.

15        Q.   Were you aware that on the 6th, the Croatian military, the HV

16     turned the entire area over to the constitutional -- excuse me, the

17     constitutional authority of the Republic of Croatia?  Were you aware of

18     that?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Now, if I may, sir, in paragraph -- just talking about the

21     looting just a bit.  The -- in paragraph 20 -- excuse me, 34 of P722,

22     this is where you said that the looting went on from approximately ten

23     days from the 6th of August to the 16th of August.

24             And I want to note for you an item that you addressed in your

25     supplemental statement to the Prosecution, which the Prosecution did not

Page 7377

 1     ask you about, and that has to do with your statement at -- "The soldiers

 2     who were looting" -- this is what you told to the Prosecution.  "The

 3     soldiers who were looting seemed to be acting individually.  The looting

 4     didn't seem to be organised."

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   Do you recall that, sir?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And that was the statement that you gave to --

 9        A.   Yeah.

10        Q.   -- Ms. Gustafson?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, during this period of time, there was a -- you would agree

13     as a police officer, there was a time needed to get the police department

14     and the police up and running in the area.  Isn't that right?

15        A.   I can only say what I saw this midday, that -- the policija was

16     in that building, the old milicija building.  I saw police officers there

17     in their dark blue uniform.

18        Q.   Let me -- are you familiar with some of the problems that they

19     had to get up and running, the police department had to get up and

20     running in the area?

21        A.   I would say it was just to take over because it had been a

22     policija station -- milicija station before, so just walk in and start it

23     again.

24        Q.   Well, let me -- if I can go --

25             MR. KEHOE:  I have a statement from a protected witness, Judge.

Page 7378

 1     If I could just go into private session briefly?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 7379

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Now, if we can just put D65 on the screen.

12        Q.   Mr. Widen, this is the -- the item that you talked about on your

13     direct examination, and this is the item that was -- excuse me.  This is

14     the item that was written on the day that you came to this location,

15     isn't it, signed by you?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   Now, when you went into this location, you note about midway

18     down: "Because of the long time, it was impossible to see how the two men

19     died."

20        A.   Yeah.

21        Q.   Now, this was written on the day of the event.  Now, for the

22     first time here, sir, you said that these men were shot?

23        A.   Yeah.  Let's say it looks like that when we first came to the

24     location.

25        Q.   In the statement that you did at the time, do you include

Page 7380

 1     anything that indicates that these people were shot, the statement that's

 2     on the screen, D65?

 3        A.   Yeah.  I don't -- can't remember if we --

 4        Q.   Just read it, sir.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You don't say anything about them being shot, do you?

 7        A.   No, I'm not -- but let's say, this is something you -- in the

 8     situation like that and what I remember, it -- they didn't die a natural

 9     death.

10        Q.   Well, sir, when you went with the Prosecution and they came to

11     see you, and the date of this is -- pardon me a second.  This is S --

12     722.  The 26th and the 27th of February, 2008, you discussed this

13     particular report at paragraph 55 and paragraph 56, mainly paragraph 55.

14             Now, in that particular paragraph in 2008, you don't say anything

15     about these individuals being shot, do you?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   Now, let me turn your attention -- the two individuals that were

18     killed were Milan Milivojevic and Ilija Milivojevic.  Do you see that up

19     there?

20        A.   Yeah.

21        Q.   The two individuals?  Let me turn your attention to D6.

22        A.   D6.

23        Q.   I'll put that on the screen, sir.  Don't worry about it.  I'll

24     just put it on the screen.

25              And in that item, first page is -- 6 and 7 is the name of Milan

Page 7381

 1     and -- 6 is Ilija and 7 is Milan.  If we can go to the next page.  Can we

 2     page up to this.  I'm sorry.

 3             Let's go up to D7.  Excuse me, D7.  Thank you.

 4             Sir, D7 is the autopsy report for Ilija Milivojevic, and if you

 5     can read on the -- if you just look at the summary and the cause of

 6     death, and take your time with that.  The medical examiner at the time

 7     was uncertain as to the cause of death, and there's nothing in the

 8     summary about any gunshot wound.

 9        A.   Okay.

10        Q.   And let's go to D8, which is Milan Milivojevic.  That, likewise,

11     is nothing about any gunshot wounds in the autopsy, and there is no

12     certainty on the part of the medical examiner about the time of death.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you are mixing up comment and questions.

14             MR. KEHOE:  I apologise, Judge.  I didn't mean to.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But you did.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Okay, sir.

17        Q.   There is --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Comment is about the absence of something.  Of

19     course we could have asked the witness, but of course, the Chamber can

20     read it, as well, so there is no need to do that.  And if there would be

21     any comment, it would also be fair to say that, for example, and this

22     will not -- well, no, I will leave my further comments for the time

23     being.  I might have some questions on the matter.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Now, the autopsy that you just saw on both Ilija Milivojevic and

Page 7382

 1     Milan Milivojevic where they conclude that they cannot determine a cause

 2     of death, that's consistent with your written report on D65 where you

 3     also noted that it was impossible to see how the two men died.  Isn't

 4     that right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   So when you came in and earlier today said this was an exclusion

 7     that was your assumption; that wasn't your observation, was it?

 8        A.   No.  I said it looked like, I said.

 9        Q.   And when you say "look like it," that was based on your

10     observation of gunshot wounds?

11        A.   Yeah.

12        Q.   But you don't reflect that in any fashion in your report?

13        A.   No, because in the -- what I'm saying to you now is the feeling I

14     have and what -- and I, also, in my report said that we couldn't -- but

15     if you ask me today, I would say they were shot.

16        Q.   Well, let us take that the comment that you noted for the first

17     time that this was an execution.  If this was an execution, you don't

18     know the circumstances of the execution, do you?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   I mean, you noted that these bodies had been around for sometime?

21        A.   Yeah.  It was very, very warm weather at that time, so let's say

22     it won't take many days before the body start will rotting.

23        Q.   Well, you don't know if these people were shot, assuming they

24     were Serbs, if they were shot by other Serbs who were angry at them, do

25     you?

Page 7383

 1        A.   I can't say that.

 2        Q.   And you don't know if they were shot by Croats coming back who

 3     were exacting revenge, can you?

 4        A.   I can't say that.  I --

 5        Q.   So it would be fair to say you don't know any of the

 6     circumstances involved?

 7        A.   No.  I just told you what I -- got in mind when I saw this.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Widen.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  If I can just have one moment, please, Your Honour.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   Again, Mr. Widen, thank you very much for your time.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

15             And, Mr. Kay --

16             MR. KAY:  No questions, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]...  remains as it was, that

18     is ...

19             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be cross-examined, Mr. Widen, by

22     Mr. Kuzmanovic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

24        Q.   Mr. Widen, who was your commander at UNCIVPOL?  Who did you

25     report to?

Page 7384

 1        A.   In --

 2        Q.   In Knin.

 3        A.   I can't remember if it was -- Elleby, I think.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Who did you work with when you went out on patrols in

 5     Knin?

 6        A.   Different people every time.

 7        Q.   Was there one particular -- person in particular that you went

 8     out on patrol with?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   I'd like you to refer to your statement, P722, paragraphs 37 and

11     38.  If you have that statement in front of you, Mr. Widen, please pull

12     it out so you can follow along.

13        A.   What paragraph you say?

14        Q.   37 and 38.  722 is the 2008 statement, and let me know if you've

15     found the paragraphs.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   On paragraph 38, you state that you patrolled through Knin

18     anywhere from approximately 5 to 15 times after Operation Storm.  Can you

19     give us a range of dates after Operation Storm, from when to when that 5

20     to 15 times occurred?

21        A.   Seven days, something like that.

22        Q.   And in paragraph 37, you stated that you never saw any burning

23     during your few CIVPOL patrols in Knin but you saw burnt houses on the

24     way to Benkovac, correct?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 7385

 1        Q.   So in Knin itself, you never saw burning?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Paragraph 39 of that same statement, sir, the sentence

 4     begins:  "During one of these patrols," and that's in Knin again, "a

 5     colleague of mine around I saw a mass grave near the cemetery."

 6             First, I'd like to ask you who the colleague was you were with?

 7        A.   I can't remember that now.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, what gave you the conclusion that this was a mass

 9     grave?

10        A.   It was the size -- as I could see, it was 2 metre wide, about 2

11     metre deep, and around 30 metre long, and if -- what happened before, I

12     thought this must be a prepared mass grave, yes.

13        Q.   Did you see any -- there were no bodies that you saw, correct?

14        A.   No -- No bodies.

15        Q.   No grave markers?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   No caskets?

18        A.   Nothing more than the diggers were still in the spot.

19        Q.   Okay.  So you made an assumption that this was a mass grave?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Paragraph 35, sir, you say:  "When I was in Knin, I did not know

22     any of the civilian or military authorities."

23             Can you please give us a reference as to -- was this before or

24     after Operation Storm that you did not know any of the civilian or

25     military authorities?

Page 7386

 1        A.   I would say it was both when the Serbs were there or when the

 2     Croats there.  I didn't --

 3        Q.   You didn't know who they were?

 4        A.   No.  I didn't, and let's say my work was not to -- we have

 5     special guys who have the meeting with the chief of policija and so on,

 6     and I was not that.

 7        Q.   So it's fair to state that at least before and after Operation

 8     Storm your lack of familiarity of civilian or military authorities was

 9     the same?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly pause between

12     questions and answers.  Thank you.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm sorry.

14        Q.   Now, you had already testified, sir, that on August 4th, 5th, and

15     6th, you were basically in your apartment?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   During the first three days of Operation Storm in Knin?

18        A.   From the 4th, at 5.00 when the shelling started, and then I stay

19     inside the whole day and the whole night and until I think about 1800 on

20     the -- on the 5th, it must be.  On the 5th, yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, you were not picked up by any pre-Operation Storm UN

22     patrol, correct?

23        A.   That's correct.  I was the only one they left outside.  I don't

24     know why -- I have no idea why, but I think they forgot me.

25        Q.   Was that because of poor organisation or for some other reason,

Page 7387

 1     or do you know?

 2        A.   I have another lady working in UN.  She was living a house up --

 3     very close to my house, and her, they pick up, so they must have been

 4     very close to me, and no, they didn't.

 5        Q.   So you were left behind?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, you decided to walk to the UN barracks?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What was the -- what prompted you to do that?

10        A.   I had to report that I was still alive, and before I left I asked

11     those people to write their name, so I said when I'm coming to the UN, I

12     will show the -- this report and you will tell the Croat soldiers when

13     they're coming that you are still alive when I left on the 5th -- on the

14     6th, morning.  So then I start walking.

15        Q.   And how long did it take to you walk from your apartment to the

16     UN barracks?

17        A.   30, 40 minutes.

18        Q.   Okay.  And during that entire time, expect for one spot you did

19     not see any dead bodies, correct?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   And the dead bodies that you saw were two dead bodies, according

22     to your statement, that were on a trailer?

23        A.   It was -- a tractor, and they were lying under the tractor.  It

24     was an old man and an old woman and ...

25        Q.   Lying underneath the tractor?

Page 7388

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   But other than those two bodies -- I presume you don't have any

 3     idea how they died, Correct?

 4        A.   No, no.  No.

 5        Q.   Other than those two bodies that you saw, you did not see any

 6     other dead bodies in and around Knin from your walk to -- from your

 7     apartment to the UN barracks, correct?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   My statement's correct?

10        A.   That's correct, yeah.

11        Q.   Mr. Kehoe had discussed with you the supplemental information

12     sheet, and he had asked you a question about that.  I would ask the usher

13     to please provide, if you don't have it, Mr. Widen, your supplemental

14     information sheet.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honours, we've had it put into e-court but

16     it'S not yet up, so I have asked Mr. Monkhouse and the usher to provide

17     the Court with copies, and of course, it's a proofing note from the

18     Prosecution, so I did provide them with a copy as well.

19        Q.   Now, this proofing note, Mr. Widen, was signed by you on

20     August 23rd, correct, of this year?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And one of the things Mr. Kehoe asked you about related to the

23     issue of looting, and before we get to the -- the proofing note, I'd like

24     you to refer, please, P721 which was your very first statement, Mr.

25     Widen, of December 14th of 1995.  And if you go to the very last page of

Page 7389

 1     that document -- actually, the very last sentence of the document.  The

 2     very last sentence of your first statement says:  "It was my impression

 3     that the looting was organised and authorised from higher up."

 4             And then in your supplemental note, on page 2, in the third --

 5     fourth paragraph, it's quite a substantial -- it's actually completely

 6     the opposite that you state:  "The soldiers who were looting seemed to be

 7     acting individually.  The looting didn't seem to be organised."

 8        A.   On that, I can say that the feeling I have that time when I was

 9     there was that it was authorised from upper that you have the Knin city

10     for yourself now for, let's say, five or ten days, and after that, we

11     have to stop the looting, and this is -- many armies have done this

12     before, so this is -- I think that was some kind of payment to the

13     soldiers.

14        Q.   But your supplemental statement here says:  "The looting didn't

15     seem to be organised, and the soldiers who were looting seemed to be

16     acting individually."  Correct?

17        A.   Yes.  That what I remember now, but when I read what I was

18     writing, 1995, it's more like that is the truth.

19        Q.   More like which is the truth?

20        A.   What I write in 1995.

21        Q.   So what you're telling me is what you added in your supplemental

22     statement is not the truth?

23        A.   Let's say I can't remember exactly.  If I go back to my mind, I

24     can't say today what I have been written here.  I mean, I can't remember

25     that.

Page 7390

 1        Q.   By "written here," you mean in your very first statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I mean, those are two substantially different versions of

 4     the events, aren't they?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  It is.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  One moment, Your Honour.  I'm almost done.

 7        Q.   The -- page 5, Mr. Widen, of your very first statement, P721, the

 8     second-last sentence, it states:  "I didn't personally witness any

 9     violence."  And that is in Knin, correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And it -- was that throughout your whole time in Knin after

12     Operation Storm that you did not witness any -- personally witness any

13     violence?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And by "violence," do you mean that that's a person against

16     another person?

17        A.   Yeah.  Beating up or shooting or whatever.

18        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to ask you -- one other area I want to talk to

19     you about, Mr. Widen.  The procedure that UNCIVPOL has, for example, when

20     you run across the site of a person or persons who have died or been

21     killed, it's true, is it not, that UNCIVPOL upon coming on a scene like

22     that would report that to the Croatian police, correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   You would not move the bodies?

25        A.   We never touched them.  We just recognised the place, and then we

Page 7391

 1     contacted the policija, and they would come.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So if someone would move the bodies or try to take

 3     photographs or conduct their own investigation outside the Croatian

 4     civilian police, that would be a violation of UNCIVPOL procedure, would

 5     it not?

 6        A.   I was never with anybody doing that, no.

 7        Q.   My question, however, was:  If someone did do that from UNCIVPOL

 8     at any of these scenes were there was a murder, that would be a violation

 9     of UNCIVPOL procedure, would it not, to move a body from -- remove a body

10     from a crime scene, potentially, correct?

11        A.   You are not allowed to do that because you had to go to the

12     policija and tell them, and if we took photograph, I can't remember.  But

13     the investigation have to be done by the policija.

14        Q.   Now, what would you do after reporting something to the civilian

15     police?  What would your next step be, if anything?  Would you follow up

16     at all?

17        A.   We tried to, but it was very difficult.

18        Q.   Okay.  Can you give me an example of what you mean by you tried

19     to but it was very difficult?

20        A.   If, for example, I asked the policeman coming to the scene what

21     happened after, and he will never answer that question.

22        Q.   Okay.  Any other example that you can give me?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Okay.  Was it your general experience that when you called the

25     Croatian civilian police to a crime scene that they would come and

Page 7392

 1     investigate the scene?

 2        A.   They were coming, but about the investigation, I can't answer

 3     that.

 4        Q.   Okay.  They would come to the scene, and what happened after they

 5     came to the scene you don't know anything about?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Okay.  That's all the questions I have.  Thank you very much.

 8        A.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

10             Ms. Gustafson, any need to put further questions to the witness?

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  About five minutes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13                           Re-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

14        Q.   You were asked at page 61 of today's transcript by Mr. Kehoe

15     about the possibility that the Serbs may have fired back on the Croats

16     during the shelling or at some point on the 4th and 5th, and I'd just

17     like to ask you, you explain in your statement that the shelling ceased

18     at 1.00 p.m.; you started to hear the sound of tanks and small-arms fire

19     at 3.00 p.m. on the 5th.

20             After the shelling ceased at 1.00 p.m., did you hear any other

21     sounds that sounded to you like artillery fire?

22        A.   No, no.

23        Q.   My second question is about the questions you were asked about

24     problems the police may have had bringing law and order to the area, the

25     police in Knin, and this was at page 68.

Page 7393

 1             Based on what you saw on the 6th/7th of August in Knin at the

 2     check-point at the policija station and around the town, did it appear to

 3     you that the civilian police in Knin were having problems getting up and

 4     running in the area?

 5        A.   No, I can't say, but as I -- on the 6th I saw two uniform police

 6     officer coming carrying video and a TV.

 7        Q.   And what did that indicate to you?

 8        A.   That they have picked it up somewhere, and I saw -- I said to

 9     Norman, Now our colleagues are looting, they -- them -- they also.

10        Q.   And page 5 of your 1995 statement, in the last paragraph you

11     said:  "According to what I witnessed, neither the civilian police nor

12     the military police raised a finger to stop the looting of Knin."

13        A.   Exactly.

14        Q.   Did it appear to that you that this failure to stop the looting

15     had to do with practical problems the police were having, or was it

16     something else?

17        A.   No.  I don't know why they -- they let this go on, but after a

18     couple of days, I can't say how many, the law and order came back, and it

19     was okay again.

20        Q.   This is the -- after the approximately 10-day period that you

21     referred to in your statement?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   And my last question is about burning.  You were at asked at page

24     74 and you were referred to paragraph 37 of your 2008 statement.  And

25     that paragraph says:  "During my few CIVPOL patrols from Knin, I never

Page 7394

 1     saw any burning, but I saw burnt houses on the way to Benkovac."

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Are those patrols that you undertook in the area from Knin to the

 4     outside of Knin, or are you talking about patrols in Knin in that

 5     paragraph, or do you remember?

 6        A.   No -- sometimes we went outside Knin, and I can't remember why we

 7     were at that place, but it was, as I remember, two or three houses burnt

 8     down, and how that happened, I don't know.

 9        Q.   When you were asked about this paragraph, you agreed that you

10     didn't see any burning in Knin, but at page 3 of your 1995 statement you

11     describe the first patrol you took on the 6th, and you say:  "A block of

12     flats and an office block were on fire, but I don't know whether this was

13     as a result of a shell or arson."

14             Is that correct?  Do you recall seeing fire in Knin on the 6th --

15        A.   Now -- now when you say it, I remember that, yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Those are my questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Can I just ask one follow-up question, sir?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but let's -- I'm looking at the clock.  Let me

21     just confer with my colleagues for a second.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there are some questions from the Bench, as

24     well, we consider it wiser to take the break now for 20 minutes.  Then I

25     will allow you to put one or more questions, and then the Bench will have

Page 7395

 1     some questions.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break until ten minutes past 6.

 4                          --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You have one more question.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, one more question.

10                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

11        Q.   Mr. Widen, just to follow up on Ms. Gustafson' question to you --

12     statement to you about in your statement, neither the civil police or

13     military police raised a finger to stop the looting.  I mean, you have no

14     knowledge of the internal functioning of the military police or the

15     civilian police, do you?

16        A.   You mean in Croatia?

17        Q.   In Croatia.

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

21             Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you, one or more.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE KINIS:  I would like to ask you a question regarding your

24     statement, 2008, paragraph 89.  When you mentioned that you find this

25     mass -- the preparation of this mass grave, and finally you mentioned

Page 7396

 1     whether you or your colleague reported about this, you didn't recall, but

 2     that would have been the normal practice.

 3             What -- could you please explain?  What do you mean about --

 4        A.   I can't explain that.  I didn't make a report on it, no.

 5             JUDGE KINIS:  No, no, but this last sentence, that would be --

 6     would have been the normal practice.

 7        A.   To do so, yes.

 8             JUDGE KINIS:  To report?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE KINIS:  Oh.  And if it would -- was not reported, it was

11     something out of normal practice?

12        A.   It was, and the only explanation I have is that I thought my

13     colleague would make the report.  That's the only --

14             JUDGE KINIS:  Okay.  And you mentioned there in Location L in

15     this map provided by Prosecutor to us, to Chamber, as well, that there is

16     this location of this mass grave.

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE KINIS:  Yes.  Was -- and as far as I understood -- or maybe

19     it is not correct; maybe you can clarify this issue.  Where this mass

20     grave was prepared, inside cemetery territory or outside cemetery?

21        A.   Outside.

22             JUDGE KINIS:  Outside.

23        A.   Yes.  And if you stand in front, it was to the left of the

24     cemetery.

25             JUDGE KINIS:  Thank you.

Page 7397

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a few questions for you, as well, Mr. Widen.

 2     You told us that you saw Mr. Mladic.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And you also told us that you recognised him by the

 5     hat he was wearing.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, was it only by the hat --

 8        A.   No, no.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that you recognised him or were there any other

10     features which made you recognise him?

11        A.   I recognised him from pictures, and it was him.  I'm 100-percent

12     sure.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the hat was in addition to --

14        A.   It was -- any picture I have seen of Mr. Mladic is when he have

15     this hat on.  It was a very special one.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, of course, I do not know whether such a

17     hat is specific for a man in his position, yes or no.  So I do understand

18     that you recognised him by the picture, but by the hat on the pictures or

19     the face on the pictures?

20        A.   The face and the hat, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The face and the hat.  Thank you for that answer.

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you said that you have seen Mr. Tudjman

24     arriving in a helicopter.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7398

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us a bit more details about what you

 2     observed.

 3        A.   It was, let's say, a lot of celebration, and all of us know that

 4     Mr. Tudjman will come by the helicopter, and I saw the helicopter, so I

 5     didn't see Mr. Tudjman himself because that was up at the castle, and you

 6     were not allowed to go up there.  So I was very close to this, and I saw

 7     the helicopter so it came, and they told me that Mr. Tudjman was there.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So what you actually observed and heard is

 9     stories about Mr. Tudjman --

10        A.   Yeah, and that --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that he would arrive in a helicopter, and you saw

12     a helicopter?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Landing --

15        A.   At the castle.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- At the castle.  Thank you for that answer.

17             Now, you told us about the objects that were, as you told us,

18     looted, and you talked about electronics.

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you intend to refer us to just electronics or

21     any electrical equipment?

22        A.   What I called electronic is TV and the videos, and that what I

23     saw.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No washing machines, no hair dryers, no --

25        A.   No.  No.

Page 7399

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Then you -- quite a lot of questions were put

 2     to you about individual looting and the looting not being organised or

 3     giving the impression to be organised.  Now, I would like not to hear

 4     about your impressions, but I would like to know exactly on what facts

 5     you came to the conclusions at various moments.  And let me take you to

 6     part of your testimony.  You said you had seen trucks.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Fully loaded.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  With objects, one person in the front, one or two

11     others --

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at the back.  Now, is that for you, if it would

14     be a military vehicle, and I think you -- you also told us about military

15     vehicles, would that be a fact which you would be consider in favour of

16     organised looting or in favour of individual looting or looting committed

17     by individuals?

18        A.   One way you must say it was organised, if you think back, because

19     those vehicles, one soldier couldn't take one vehicle and start looting

20     himself, so what I figure out that was the trucks were leaving Knin, and

21     I think they were coming back when they have unloaded the trucks and

22     taking more goods.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, just on the basis of your testimony that

24     one driver, two or three at the back, more?

25        A.   I can't say, but I saw soldier in the back of the trucks, yes.

Page 7400

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, to the extent you remember, would there

 2     have been televisions for more than the two, three, or four?  Would that

 3     be eight televisions or ten, or would it be limited to the number of

 4     persons that accompanied the transport?

 5        A.   I would say it's between 50 and 100 trucks I saw leaving Knin,

 6     between that during those days, but I can't say how many, but at least

 7     50.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's the number of trucks.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What I would like to know is whether the number of specific

11     items, such as televisions or video, whether the number of televisions

12     would go beyond the number of persons that were on that truck.

13        A.   Yes, it would.  It was more TV set than it was people on board,

14     yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm trying to understand your testimony, and

16     please correct me when I'm wrong, that, apparently, individuals without -

17     that's how I understood it - without a command structure visible being

18     present participated in the looting; to that extent, it appeared to be

19     individual activity, at the same time that in view of what you described

20     as trucks loaded fully, trucks leaving loaded, trucks coming in empty --

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that that gave you the impression that it was not

23     just the individuals that were on those trucks.

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that a correct understanding --

Page 7401

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of your testimony?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that then, also, be fair to say that in some

 5     respect you couldn't conclude that it was organised, whereas in other

 6     aspects that that gave you the impression that there was some

 7     organisation involved?

 8        A.   I can't say that.  I just telling you what I saw, and I -- no.  I

 9     can't go and say, This was organised because -- I can't say that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then my last question is what you saw in the

11     incident that was reported.  It has been -- a post-mortem has been put to

12     you in which the conclusion was that it could not be established what the

13     cause of death had been.  Again, I want to focus you on the facts.  The

14     two dead bodies which you saw --

15        A.   Yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- did you see any blood on these two bodies, if you

17     remember?

18        A.   I can't say 100 percent.  No, I can't.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And you told us, but that is a conclusion, that it

20     gave you the impression that they were executed.  Could you give us

21     facts, what you observed which led you to that impression?  I'm mainly --

22     I'm interested in facts you observed, less in the --

23        A.   Yeah.

24             JUDGE ORIE: -- in what impression it left with you.

25        A.   The fact was that I saw the older man sitting in the chair, and

Page 7402

 1     he was -- yeah, rotten you say, rotten, yes, and also that the man close

 2     to the window, seems to me that he tried to escape through the window.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This, again, is an impression and a conclusion

 4     rather than facts.  Was it the position of his body?  Was it anything

 5     else that gave you the impression you just described?

 6        A.   Because of the window, the man just inside the window on the

 7     floor, and the older man sitting in the chair.  It -- it was a crime

 8     scene for me as a police officer.  What I -- if I have been there for --

 9     working as a police officer, I certain have said that this we must go

10     deeper and check out because it was like a murder scene for me, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it that you saw two dead bodies in the same

12     house, which --

13        A.   It was same room.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Same room?

15        A.   Yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that it was also the position of the

17     elderly man in the chair?

18        A.   Yeah.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there any sign which would have hinted at any

20     possibility that the person was put in that chair after he had died?

21        A.   That I can't answer.  He was sitting in the chair, and I was

22     surprised that he still was sitting in the chair because normal, if he

23     died, he will fell from the chair, but he did -- he was still sitting in

24     the chair.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Still sitting in the chair.

Page 7403

 1             These were my questions.

 2             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need to put further

 3     questions to the witness?

 4             Ms. Gustafson, no.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Just one question.

 6        Q.   With regard to the two individuals, did you find bullet casings

 7     there?  Did you pick up bullet casings at all?

 8        A.   No, no.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

10             Then, Mr. Widen, this concludes your testimony in this court.

11             Before you leave this court, I would like to draw your attention

12     to the following:  During private session, part of a statement was read

13     to you, a statement given by a protected witness.  I instruct you, I

14     order that you will not reveal to anyone what you heard during private

15     session as far as this witness is concerned.  That was not without reason

16     said in private session, and you're under a court order not to reveal

17     that to anyone.

18             Mr. Widen, I would like to thank you very much on behalf of the

19     Chamber and I take it also on behalf of the parties for having come to

20     The Hague, for having answered questions put to you by the parties and by

21     the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We still have some time to start with the next

Page 7404

 1     witness.  Nevertheless, there are two small items which I would like to

 2     raise.

 3             First of all, the parties should prepare that we will deal later

 4     this week with the MFI list and that we have all details ready as soon as

 5     we find time for it; otherwise, the list will be longer than we wish it

 6     to be.

 7             There's another matter, that is about the week off in autumn.

 8     The Chamber has received the preferences from the parties.  Of course,

 9     the Chamber itself also has its preferences.  It is not to say that we

10     always follow our preferences; I can assure you.  There was a preference

11     by the -- I think most of the Defence teams, at least the Defence teams

12     that expressed themselves, to take off the week of the 20th to the 24th

13     of October.  This was certainly not the preference of the Prosecution,

14     who -- the Prosecution has drawn our attention to the fact that the 24th

15     would be a holiday, anyhow, so in holiday terms, a lost day; they would

16     take that week off.  As a compromise, the Chamber is inclined but if it

17     -- any further observations will be made, we'll hear that, not to say

18     that we'll then follow those observations, but the Chamber is inclined to

19     take that week as being five full days, which would lead us to starting

20     this one-week recess period on Friday, the 17th of October, that it would

21     extend until Thursday, including Thursday, the 23rd of October, and we

22     would then to our surprise find that the 24th October is a UN holiday,

23     anyhow.

24             Since no observations were made in relation to the 17th, the

25     Chamber will wait for one more day whether to see whether this will be

Page 7405

 1     the final order of the Chamber.  Of course, the parties have an

 2     opportunity to bring to the attention to the staff of the Chamber any

 3     important matter in relation to this intention by the Chamber.

 4             I have no further matters on my list at this very moment.  There

 5     are a few others but not to be dealt with at this moment.

 6             Yes.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, if I may, I'm sorry.  I did not

 8     tender the supplemental information sheet that I referred to in cross,

 9     and I would like to do that if that's all right with the Court.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was wondering because --

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I certainly --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- apparently Mr. Kehoe alluded to the information

13     contained in it.  I think you referred to the content of it, but if you

14     would you prefer to have the supplementary statement in evidence, but is

15     that, then, also a 92 ter, is that just for the matter you raised, or is

16     it another 92 ter statement?

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I would assume that it would be another 92 ter,

18     Your Honour, since it did correct other things within the previous

19     statements.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any disagreement on that?

21             Ms. Gustafson.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection to its admittance, Your Honour.  The

23     witness wasn't brought through the 92 ter process with the supplemental

24     statement.  Whether it's considered a 92 ter statement or not, I don't

25     know, but we have no objection to its admittance in any event.

Page 7406

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, of course, the admission of a 92 ter

 2     statement, usually we go through the -- I would say the series of

 3     questions.  Now, it appears -- if the parties would agree that the

 4     statement as the witness said was put on paper but on the basis of what

 5     he said and if there are no objections from either party, then --

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber will admit the statement in

 8     evidence, including to the content of it.

 9             Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D719.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D719 is admitted into evidence.

12             Ms. Gustafson.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I just wanted to inform the Court

14     that I'm ready to give a response to the series of maps that I thought

15     was also marked D719, but maybe I'm mistaken.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was marked for identification and,

17     Mr. Registrar, was that 719 or was it -- I think we started with D719,

18     and then you corrected that and said that it actually was D718, and

19     therefore D17 [sic] was vacated again.

20             The numbering, we'll finally -- we'll find a proper solution for

21     that.  Ms. Gustafson, I take it that from there being no further

22     questions that you do not challenge the way in which the items the

23     Defence had selected was put on that map.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No.  We agree with the locations.  They match

25     those on the witness's photograph attached to the witness's statement.

Page 7407

 1     However, the second through third pages refer to locations where the

 2     Defence said that the witness said there was shelling damage, and number

 3     B, letter B, is on those pages, and it's not one of the locations where

 4     the witness identified shelling, which I spoke with my colleague in the

 5     break, and I think he agreed with that, so I was wondering if the exhibit

 6     should be corrected.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  The exhibit itself doesn't need to be corrected but

 8     just on the record, that name B is a location that he had put on there

 9     that I put back on there.  That was in around all the areas he was

10     talking about being shelled.  But -- counsel is right, but it is the

11     exact area that he did in fact mark, so that is consistent.  So if we'd

12     just driven by the 92 ter submission as to how he identified those

13     locations, that's fine.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then there seems to be no reason to recall

15     the witness for those purposes.  I should have asked you.  I should have

16     given you an opportunity, Ms. Gustafson, before we started.

17             We have 25 minutes left.  If there are no other procedural

18     matters, I would like to ask the Prosecution when they are ready to call

19     the next witness.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, Mr. President.  The witness is called Mr. Sava

21     Mirkovic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I did understand and also take from your

23     remark that no protective measures are sought.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Mirkovic.  Do you hear me in a

Page 7408

 1     language you understand?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand, but I need to

 3     adjust my headset for my right ear.  I'm not sure if I should do it

 4     myself or seek assistance.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it better now?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's fine.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Mirkovic, before you give evidence in this

 8     courtroom, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

 9     solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

10     nothing but the truth.

11             May I invite you to make that solemn declaration, of which the

12     text has now been handed out to you by Mr. Usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.  Please be seated.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Mr. Waespi, who is

18     counsel for the Prosecution.

19             Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           WITNESS:  SAVA MIRKOVIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Mr. Waespi:

24        Q.   Good evening, Mr. Mirkovic.

25        A.   Good evening to all.

Page 7409

 1        Q.   Can you please state your full name for the record.

 2        A.   My name is Sava Mirkovic.

 3        Q.   Mr. Mirkovic, do you recall giving a witness statement to

 4     investigators of this Tribunal dated 9th March 2007?

 5        A.   I do.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter number

 7     5388.

 8        Q.   Now, on the left side you see the English original of a witness

 9     statement; on the right side, very soon you will see the translation into

10     your language.  Is that the statement that you gave on 9th March 2007?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   And yesterday, did you have a chance to review this statement in

13     my office?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I would like you to go to paragraph 7 of the English version,

16     which is on page 2 of the English version, and page 3 of your version in

17     Serbian, and it says:  "I asked my mother to come with us, but she would

18     not leave the house."  And that's when you and your family decided to

19     leave your village?

20             Now, was it that you asked your mother to come with you, or did

21     you use another word?

22        A.   I told my mother to come with us.  It was almost an order.  It

23     was uttered in an imperative tone, but she refused to leave our home, and

24     the same thing happened three times in a row.  She would leave the house

25     momentarily, but then they eventually refused to come with us.

Page 7410

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.  Now, with this correction, is this

 2     witness statement of the 9th March 2007 true and accurate to the best of

 3     your knowledge?

 4        A.   You mean what those people told me, their testimonies to me, or

 5     do you mean the evidence that I gave in my statement?

 6        Q.   The latter, the evidence you gave to -- to investigators.  Is

 7     that true and accurate to the best of your knowledge?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.  I'm certain that it is.

 9        Q.   And also, does this statement accurately reflect what you have

10     told the investigators at that time?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today in court, would

13     your answers be the same as recorded in this statement?

14        A.   My answers would be the same then as now or, potentially, at some

15     point in the future.  My answers would always remain the same.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.  And we will go over a few of these

17     statements again in the next few minutes.

18             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, given the witness's answers I would

19     like to move the statement into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

21             MR. MISETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections from -- and you're speaking on behalf

23     of all Defence teams from what I see, Mr. Misetic.

24             Mr. Registrar, the 92 ter witness statement would be number ...

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P723, Your Honours.

Page 7411

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P723 is admitted into evidence.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  For everybody's

 4     assistance and information, I would like to read out a very brief summary

 5     of what's contained in P723.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, I have to -- I think I spoke too quickly

 7     when I said that P723 was admitted into evidence.  There might even have

 8     been some overlap with what you said.  I apologise for it.  But I would

 9     like to have it clear on the record that P723 is admitted into evidence,

10     and I'll improve my performance in this respect.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             Before Operation Storm, the witness was living in the hamlet of

14     Mirkovici in the village of Polaca east of the town of Knin.  In the

15     morning on 4th August, 1995, Polaca was shelled without causing damage.

16     The witness also observed smoke in the town of Knin, which was about 17

17     to 18 kilometres from the witness's village.  At around 12.00 to 1.00 in

18     the afternoon, the witness and his family could see people on the Knin

19     road moving from the villages around Knin.  At around 9.00 p.m., in the

20     afternoon, the witness and his family decided to leave.  His mother

21     refused to join them, and the witness gave her money and told her she

22     could use it until he returned.

23             The witness and his family left his village and went through Knin

24     and joined the convoy of refugees.  When he saw the convoy, he realized

25     that there was no turning back and continued to Bosnia, eventually

Page 7412

 1     Serbia.  A friend of the witness later told him that he had been back to

 2     his house in Polaca and had seen the remains of the witness's mother.  He

 3     said that something had been poured over her body and she had been

 4     burned.  The witness later learned that his mother's body had been

 5     buried, and he filed a request to have her body exhumed.  He never

 6     received a response to his request.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour.  I'm aware

10     that the summaries are not evidence.  There is one issue that I would

11     just point out that I don't think the witness says in the statement.  I

12     won't say it with the witness here, and I don't know if it's relevant,

13     but I do want to preserve our position on it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would perhaps --

15             MR. MISETIC:  I'll consult with --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Briefly consult with Mr. Waespi and then see whether

17     the summary --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you're right, not being evidence, nevertheless,

20     to be corrected if it's inaccurate --

21             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in any way.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

25             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 7413

 1             If potential Exhibit 65 ter 4771 could be retrieved, which is a

 2     map of the Knin area.

 3        Q.   And while that is it being done, Mr. Mirkovic, you lived in the

 4     hamlet of Mirkovici as we know.  Now, how many people lived there in this

 5     hamlet prior to Operation Storm?

 6        A.   Between 55 and 60 people.

 7        Q.   And how many families would that be?

 8        A.   A total of 11, 11 households.

 9        Q.   And what is the ethnicity of these 11 families and their members?

10        A.   They were orthodox, Serbs.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.

12             MR. WAESPI:  Now, if the map could be zoomed in on the right part

13     of the eastern part where we can see Knin, top right part.  It's more the

14     top right part than the middle or lower right part.  Yes, I think that's

15     fine.  Perhaps even more on the right side, and if we can scroll up a

16     little bit.  Sorry, the other way around.  Yes.

17        Q.   Mr. Mirkovic, you see Knin there.  Is it sufficient for you to

18     identify the village of Mirkovici and Polaca, given the size of the image

19     you see in front of you?

20        A.   Yesterday I had a better view of the map when we were looking at

21     it together.  My view today is not as clear.

22        Q.   Perhaps you can - yes - enlarge it.

23        A.   It's better now.  I don't think there is any need to zoom in

24     anymore.

25             MR. WAESPI:  If Mr. Usher could assist with you a pen so you can

Page 7414

 1     mark the village of Mirkovici so that everybody has an understanding of

 2     the location we are talking about.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.  And perhaps can you also indicate where

 5     the larger village of Polaca is.

 6        A.   It is not really a large village.  It's all one village, Polaca,

 7     but Polaca comprises a number of hamlets, Mirkovici, Wolkovici, Todorici,

 8     Cibozna, Ciladzicin [phoen], and so on and so forth.  There were, shall

 9     we say, 10 to 20 households each in each one of those hamlets, but all

10     these hamlets make up the village of Polaca.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.  In fact, we can see the word "Polaca"

12     in spread letters about three centimetres above the word "Mirkovici."

13             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I can circle Polaca for you,

15     too, if that helps you.

16             MR. WAESPI:

17        Q.   Yes, please.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to be sure, Mr. Waespi, you refer to what we

21     saw north of Mirkovici.  There I see the word "Pola" but not "Polaca."

22     Were you referring to that?  Because it seems that the witness circled --

23     oh, I see it now.  I see it.  Now I see it.  Yes.  Yes, I correct myself.

24             I think Polaca is both indicated as an area designation and under

25     M. Polaca, apparently as a hamlet.

Page 7415

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I may.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please, Mr. Misetic.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  This was actually what I was going to raise.  I

 4     think maybe the witness wanted to circle the word, but I think his

 5     earlier testimony he made clear correctly that Mirkovici itself is part

 6     of Polaca as are the surrounding hamlets, so the actual Polaca is a much

 7     bigger circle than he has circled in this location.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have identified already three Polacas in the

 9     area, and I don't think, as a matter of fact, that it creates great

10     confusion, Polaca being an area in which several hamlets are found,

11     including Markovici.

12             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, and in P723 - that is witness statement,

13     paragraph 1 - the witness explained that Mirkovici is part of Polaca.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I think we should not spend more time on

15     this.  It is clear to us, Mr. Mirkovic.  We looked at the map -- we were

16     a bit confused, but all the confusion is gone now.

17             So, Mr. Waespi, please proceed.

18             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  Perhaps for the record, this exhibit is also

19     already P190, but I think with these markings it should receive a new

20     exhibit number.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P724.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Map marked by the witness and is, in the absence of

24     any objections, admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 7416

 1             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Mirkovic, how long did the people, the families over

 3     generations live in this village, if you know?

 4        A.   All I know is that the village -- the church in the village of

 5     Polaca dates back to 1554, I think.  I'm not entirely certain about the

 6     year.  Don't hold me to it, but I know it's that old, roughly speaking.

 7             Another thing I can tell that you is my grandad died in 1968.  He

 8     was 98 years old at the time he died, and he used to tell me about his

 9     father who also lived to a ripe old age.  For a church to be built in a

10     village like that, first people had to arrive.  Then they would build

11     their own homes, and then they would build a church after they'd build

12     their homes, which implies a lot of time passing between the two.  The

13     idea the people got there.  We know that there were monasteries around

14     Knin.  One of those was built in 1368.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.  Now, turning to your specific family,

16     how big, how large was your family?

17        A.   At the time, we are now considering it was me, my mother, my

18     wife, and my two daughters.  As for my extended family, well, that would

19     take some time.  My father had five brothers.  They each had three or

20     four children.  It's a large family.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in August 1995, did you own property in Polaca?

22        A.   I owned nothing at the time, or rather, I do believe I owned

23     something but this is the sort of tradition that we have back where I

24     come from.  Everything is owned by the parent as long as the parent is

25     alive, but we all were involved in -- in the building up of this

Page 7417

 1     property.  My mother, my father, I was involved, as well, but technically

 2     speaking, the owner was always my mother.

 3        Q.   And what did your mother own?

 4        A.   The land that we owned, our vineyards, meadows, pasture, some

 5     woodland, the house that we owned, all the machinery that was there,

 6     anything that you normally find included in a -- in an average rural

 7     household.

 8        Q.   And very briefly, how was life for you in -- before Operation

 9     Storm?

10        A.   Before the operation, life was hard.  We lived in some sort of a

11     natural preserve.  We can move and -- but our life was quite poor.  But

12     before the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia, life was actually

13     fairly good.  We can't all say it was a bad living.  We all had jobs.  We

14     were involved in agricultural work, and we were making a nice living, all

15     of us.  We managed to build our homes.  We had tractors.  We had all the

16     machinery that we needed.  We had our cars, and we actually had

17     everything that a normal household needs to get by on a daily basis.

18        Q.   Turning to the events on the 4th of August.  We know from your

19     statement now that the village Polaca was shelled.  Now, when exactly was

20     it shelled as far as you recall?

21        A.   It was perhaps at about 10.00 or 11.00 a.m. that sporadic shells

22     started falling.  The shelling wasn't very intense at first.  There were

23     a few shells that fell at first that landed there, but none of the

24     households were affected.  No one came over to say that they'd been

25     harmed or anything like that.  This was more by way of intimidation, or

Page 7418

 1     perhaps they were just missing their targets at first.

 2        Q.   Talking about targets, as far as you know, were there any

 3     military targets in the area where these shells were falling?

 4        A.   There were no military targets in Polaca.

 5        Q.   Eventually, Mr. Mirkovic, your family decided to leave.  When did

 6     your family decide to leave?

 7        A.   That evening at about 9.00 or 9.30, that evening or thereabouts

 8     we decided to leave our house.

 9        Q.   And why did your family decide to leave?

10        A.   Why?  We knew there was a war on.  We knew what happened to other

11     people who had stayed behind.  We knew about the Medak pocket.  We knew

12     about Miljace.  We knew about Western Slavonia.  None of the people

13     living there, my family included, needless to say, believed that we would

14     be safe and that we would be able to get on with our lives.  This

15     eventually proved true.  My mother was adamant that she would stay

16     behind, and we all knew what became of her.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, I'm looking at the clock.

18             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mirkovic, we have to conclude for the day.

20     First, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone

21     about your testimony, whether the testimony you already gave today or

22     about the testimony still to be given tomorrow, and we'd like to see you

23     back tomorrow at quarter past 2 in this same courtroom.

24             We adjourn until Tuesday, 26th of August, 2.15 p.m., Courtroom 2.

25                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

Page 7419

 1                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the, 26th day of

 2                           August, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.