Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7545

 1                           Thursday, 28 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused Cermak not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 3.44 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     number IT-06-90-T, The Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             The Chamber received a message that Mr. Cermak, for not feeling

11     well had decided not to attend today.  He signed a declaration of waiver,

12     which will be filed and this is in accordance with the information we

13     received from you, Mr. Kay.

14             MR. KAY:  That is right, Your Honour, and he has waived his

15     rights to attend today, and I will represent his interests.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

17             Then this is to inform the parties that the discussion we had

18     about a person accompanying the witness today, after everything we had

19     arranged, we received a message that he decided not be present, so that

20     issue does not exist anymore.

21             We had a late start due to technical problems.  I urge the

22     parties to see whether we can finish with the witness today, because it

23     would be a pity if he would have to return and then to have come back

24     tomorrow.  Everyone will understand this.

25             Then let's check whether the videolink is well-functioning.

Page 7546

 1             Could the representative of the registry in Zagreb address the

 2     Chamber and tell us whether he with see and hear us.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Yes, Your Honour, good afternoon.

 4     We can see and hear you clearly.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Monkhouse.

 6             Then I would like to address the witness, Mr. Ilic.

 7             Mr. Ilic, can you hear me in a language you understand?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ilic, before you give evidence in this Court,

10     the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

11     declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

12     but the truth.

13             May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it and agree with it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you please --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ilic.

19             Mr. Hedaraly, will it be you who will examine the witness.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  It will, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, usually we start whether you are ready

22     to call your next witness but since Mr. Ilic was there already, I take it

23     that this is the witness that you intended to call.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  That is correct, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 7547

 1                           WITNESS:  MILAN ILIC

 2                           [Witness testified through interpreter]

 3                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 4                           Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

 5        Q.   Mr. Ilic, first please let me ask you, can you see me properly on

 6     the screen in front of you?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please state your full name for the record.

 9        A.   Ilic Milan.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number

11     5396 on the screen; and for Mr. Registrar in Zagreb that would be the

12     first document that was sent over.

13        Q.   Mr. Ilic, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of

14     the Prosecutor on 6 July 1999?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   And if we can move to the bottom of the page on the English.

17             Can you confirm that that is your signature at the bottom?

18        A.   It is my signature.

19        Q.   And can we have 65 ter 5397, please, on the screen.  And in

20     Zagreb would be the second tab.

21             Mr. Ilic, do you recall providing another witness statement to

22     the Office of the Prosecutor on 25 March 2005?

23        A.   I do remember, because I misspoke and I misspelled, actually, my

24     date of birth, the year of birth.

25        Q.   Would you like to make that correction now?

Page 7548

 1        A.   Yes, let's correct it.  It was 29th of August.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you also confirm that that signature at the

 3     bottom of the page of the statement that is shown to you is also your

 4     signature?

 5        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

 6        Q.   And did you have a chance to review these two statements, this

 7     one and the one that was shown to you earlier, did you have a chance to

 8     review these two statements yesterday?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And do these statements accurately reflect what you said to the

11     Office of the Prosecutor in the course of those interviews?

12        A.   I think that they do.

13        Q.   And the contents of the statements that you signed are true to

14     the best of your knowledge and recollection?

15        A.   Yes, correct.

16        Q.   And, finally, if you were asked the same questions today that you

17     were asked in those interviews, would you give the same answers?

18        A.   Well, I think maybe not exactly in the same order, but I would

19     recall everything.

20        Q.   Would the substance of your answers, if you were asked the same

21     questions today, be the same that are reflected in those two statements?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, at this time I would like to have

24     65 ter 5396 and 65 ter 5397 be admitted into evidence pursuant to Rule 92

25     ter.

Page 7549

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 5396 would be

 3     assigned as Prosecution Exhibit P00725; and 65 ter number 5397 would be

 4     assigned exhibit number P006726.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  From earlier submissions I understand that are no

 6     objections against admission of P725 and P726, therefore both are

 7     admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             I would like to read out a summary of the evidence of the witness

11     contained in the two statements.  I think it may be useful for the

12     witness if the Bench could briefly inform the witness of the purpose of

13     reading the summary.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ilic, Mr. Hedaraly will read a short summary of

15     your statement, because otherwise the public would not understand what

16     your testimony was about.  Therefore, if you'd just wait a second and let

17     Mr. Hedaraly read and then he might have some additional questions in

18     relation to your statements.

19             Mr. Hedaraly, please proceed.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Milan Ilic is a Croatian citizen of Serb ethnicity, who lived in

22     Donji Lapac at the time Operation Storm started.  From his home, he was

23     able to observe the convoy of civilians on the route towards Bosnia

24     during the first days of the military operation.

25             In the morning of 7 August 1995, the area was shelled for

Page 7550

 1     approximately two hours, after which members of the Croatian forces

 2     entered Donji Lapac and the surrounding villages.  Milan Ilic decided to

 3     leave for Oraovac, to his family home.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oraovac.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  That's right, Oraovac, O-R-A-O-V-A-C.

 6             At about 1.00 in the afternoon, the witness and his brother Marko

 7     were sitting in the garden of their family home in Oraovac when a group

 8     of Croatian soldiers approached them and started cursing them calling

 9     them Chetnik.  The soldiers were armed.  Some of them were wearing

10     camouflage uniforms whereas others had greyish green uniforms.  Milan and

11     Marko Ilic were made to sit on the road and were searched.  A young

12     soldier was left to guard them as the others entered the houses of

13     Oraovac searching for people.  Three remaining villagers Stevo Ajdukovic,

14     Rade Bibic, and Ruza Bibic were forced to join the witness and his

15     brother.  The group composed exclusively of civilians most of them

16     elderly, was then ordered to stand up and walk behind one of the

17     soldiers.

18             While walking, Milan Ilic noticed an open gate, ran through it,

19     and hid in a bush.  From this position, he heard about eight shots in

20     groups of two, coming from the direction of where the soldier was leading

21     the group.  The witness hid in the area for the following two days and

22     was able to observe burning and looting.  On the 10th of August,

23     Milan Ilic headed towards Bosnia and was intercepted by Croatian soldiers

24     in the proximity of Martin Brod.  He was brought to the collection centre

25     in Donji Lapac and then transferred to Zadar.  He stayed there for about

Page 7551

 1     20 days until his nephew came to collect him.

 2             The witness returned to Donji Lapac in September 1995, to find

 3     the village burnt to the ground.  He reported the incident of Oraovac to

 4     both of ICRC and the local police.  Years later, he learned that the

 5     bodies of his brother and the other villagers had been found in the

 6     Gracac cemetery.

 7             This concludes my summary, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

 9             Mr. Ilic, please carefully listen.  Mr. Hedaraly may have

10     questions for you.

11             Mr. Hedaraly.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Mr. Ilic, I don't have any questions for you regarding the

14     killing of your brother and the other villagers because it is clear at

15     least to me from your statements.  The other lawyers and the Judges may

16     want to ask you questions regarding that incident.  I want to focus on a

17     few other areas of your statement.  Is that understood?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   My first question is:  Were you ever a member of the army of the

20     RSK?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Was your brother, Marko Ilic, ever a member of the army of the

23     RSK?

24        A.   No, he was an old man.  He was 57 years old.

25        Q.   Was Mr. Bibic a member of the army of the RSK?

Page 7552

 1        A.   No, he was even older than my brother.

 2        Q.   In your statement you discuss briefly the shelling of Donji Lapac

 3     on the 7th of August.  Now, I want to ask you a few questions regarding

 4     that.

 5             First of all, you stated that you were on your way from

 6     Donji Lapac to Oraovac.  Can you tell the Court where you were when you

 7     observed the shelling?

 8        A.   I was at home first in Lapac and then I headed for Lapac [as

 9     interpreted].  But before that, I went on the way --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the first place or

11     the second place, Korenica.

12             MR. HEDARALY:

13        Q.   Mr. Ilic, I think there was a problem with the interpretation.

14     Could you please repeat your answer and say from where you went the first

15     location and the second location to which you went.

16        A.   The first place where I was, was at home in Donji Lapac.  When

17     the shelling started, I headed towards Oraovac.  The shelling of Oraovac

18     came from three different area, Mazin, Udbina and Korenica and this

19     lasted about an hour.  Maybe a little longer, but I think it was about an

20     hour.

21        Q.   And where were you specifically when you observed this?  Was

22     it -- was it along the way the whole time or was it a specific location

23     that you were observing this from?

24        A.   For a while I remained at the same place, but then I went along

25     the wood and headed for Oraovac and that's how I got there, because the

Page 7553

 1     shells were flying over Lapac?

 2        Q.   When you say you remained at the same place, was that a specific

 3     place in Donji Lapac.

 4        A.   When it started.  Donji Lapac, that's when it started.  Because

 5     my house was towards Bosnia on a hill ...

 6        Q.   So were your observations made from your house in Donji Lapac or

 7     some other location in Donji Lapac?

 8        A.   Well, I left my house.  I wasn't in the house itself because I

 9     had left the house early in the morning.

10        Q.   How far from your house were you?

11        A.   Well, I left -- well, it was about ten metres away from my home.

12     Maybe not even that far.

13        Q.   You stated both in your statements and earlier a few minutes ago

14     that the shelling was coming from three different areas Mazin, Udbina and

15     Korenica.  Were you able to see the shells coming from those locations or

16     from those directions?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And did you see where those shells were falling?

19        A.   I did see when a shell hits a house then you could see a cloud of

20     smoke and dust.

21        Q.   And could you tell the Court where the shells were falling.  Were

22     they falling in town itself, or in areas of town specifically?  Could you

23     give us any information as to where you saw these shells fall, these --

24     the smoke going up.

25        A.   I saw what was happening in the downtown Lapac in the centre and

Page 7554

 1     then a street leading towards the lumber yard, and this the way that I

 2     went and the shell had just hit the lumber mill.

 3        Q.   So that was -- if I understood you correctly, in the centre of

 4     Donji Lapac?

 5        A.   Yes, in the centre.

 6        Q.   Were there any ARSK soldiers, tanks, artillery pieces or any

 7     other type of military equipment in the town of Donji Lapac itself?

 8        A.   As for the RSK army, there was no one there.  They had all left.

 9     As for weapons, I wouldn't know anything about that.  Because there were

10     no operations there was no counterattack, nothing.

11        Q.   Were there any places around Donji Lapac where any -- any

12     ammunitions or weapons could have been stored?

13        A.   I don't know about that.  I can't really say.  I don't know.  I

14     think not, but I don't know.  Unless somewhere in Boricevac, but for

15     these villages, I don't know.

16        Q.   And how far is Boricevac from Donji Lapac?

17        A.   I think maybe eight or nine kilometres.

18        Q.   And now you said maybe somewhere in Boricevac.  Actually, you

19     said unless somewhere in Boricevac.  Do you have any reason to believe

20     that there were any military weapons or ammunitions stored there?

21        A.   Well, you know what I think?  This was a state-owned company, and

22     all these resources that they had they were deserted, they were left

23     behind and I didn't go there because I had no cause to go there.

24        Q.   So have I understood you correctly, that you don't know what was

25     there?

Page 7555

 1        A.   I don't know.  To tell you the truth, I can't tell you what

 2     exactly was there.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, could you seek clarification as to

 4     what state-owned company the witness was referring to and where that was

 5     located, apart from whether it was operational or not.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  Certainly, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Mr. Ilic, you said there was a state-owned company.  Was that a

 8     state-owned company that was in Boricevac or was it somewhere else?

 9        A.   It was in Boricevac.  Their main administration building was in

10     Boricevac.  That's where their offices were.  There were also some stalls

11     there and stables.  But this was not in operation anymore, so that these

12     stables were left behind.

13        Q.   When was the last time that those stables, as you call them, had

14     been operational?

15        A.   I can't really recall exactly because I used to work there for

16     about a year.  I can't recall what year it was.  This was an agricultural

17     combine.  I think this was in 1975, maybe, when I worked for them.  These

18     stables were already in very poor condition.  They were sort of decrepit,

19     falling apart.

20        Q.   Were they operational at the beginning of the war?

21        A.   I couldn't say.  I don't know.

22        Q.   And could you give us a little more precision of what type of

23     agricultural type of business that company was involved in?

24        A.   They raised cattle, calfs.  There was also -- all kinds of

25     agricultural work, farming.

Page 7556

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, would you like more clarification

 3     or ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's fine, as far as I'm concerned.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Ilic, in your statement, you said that at the time the

 7     population of the Donji Lapac municipality was around 8.500 and that they

 8     were mostly Serbs.  Can you tell the Court what is the population of the

 9     Donji Lapac municipality today?

10        A.   I think that today, together with the Croats and the Bosniaks,

11     they're probably two and a half to 3.000 people, no more.

12        Q.   And what is the proportion of Serbs and Croats and Bosniaks

13     today, if you know?

14        A.   Well, the Serbs are in the majority and then the next group are

15     Bosnian Croats.  There are some Croats from Croatia, few.

16        Q.   Okay.  I just want to switch the focus now.

17             You talked about -- in your statements about the soldiers -- the

18     soldiers that came in Oraovac and you said that some had camouflage

19     uniforms and then some had in the first statement you say plain grey

20     uniform and then in the second statement greyish green uniforms, I would

21     like to clear up that confusion.  Let me show you a picture.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could have P324 on the screen.

23        Q.   Can you tell the Court whether the colour of the uniform you see

24     there is -- is similar to the ones that you saw in Oraovac.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  And, Mr.  Registrar, that is the one that has

Page 7557

 1     number on it, that ends with 9979.

 2        A.   The soldiers who were in Oraovac had camouflage uniforms on,

 3     whereas these had greyish green uniforms.  They look the like overalls.

 4     I saw this on the video yesterday and I explained to them what they

 5     looked like.  Because it wasn't easy to -- you know, I wasn't really

 6     looking what they were wearing.  I just know that some of them had

 7     camouflage uniforms.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:

 9        Q.   Let me just clarify one thing.  You said that the soldiers in

10     Oraovac had camouflage uniforms.  In your statement, you said that there

11     were two types of soldiers in Oraovac, some that this camouflage uniforms

12     and some that had this greyish green uniform.  Is that correct, that both

13     those types of uniforms were worn by the soldiers there in Oraovac?

14        A.   Yes.  Some of them had camouflage uniforms; and the others had

15     other uniforms.  But they were all together.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not separate.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, two points.  One is I would like to

19     repeat an objection that I made several months ago if Your Honour will

20     recall it had to do with identification of badges, uniforms, and things

21     like that and showing specific pictures and asking a witness to identify

22     them.

23             The second is that the witness has made a comment in his answer

24     that he saw a video yesterday.  I don't --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Make I take it that Mr. Hedaraly will come to it.

Page 7558

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  I have no idea so I'm go to ask him.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I was going to ask if there was a proofing

 3     statement, but I guess not.  Okay thank you.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I don't know what that video is but I will ask

 5     him.  If can just respond to Mr. Misetic' objection.

 6             I'm not asking the witness whether these were the same soldiers

 7     and he discusses in his statement like a badge and those were not shown

 8     to him specifically for that reason, but in this case we have pictures of

 9     some soldiers that we know were in the area so that's why I'm just trying

10     to seek clarification on the colours that they were wearing, not

11     identifying the colour but if you could compare between his two

12     statements iff they're similar to what is being shown.  I'm not seeking

13     identification of that specific uniform.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But that seems to be not the major concern of

15     Mr. Misetic.  I think the issue is that a witness should first exhaust

16     his memory in describing what he saw before any examples are given to

17     them, and one could even consider that before showing pictures, that a

18     kind of a photo spread of uniforms would be produced so as to give an

19     opportunity to the witness to say which is the type of uniform, which

20     comes closest to or is the same as what you just described, a kind of

21     a -- like with an identification of a person but then identification of

22     uniforms.

23             But I don't think at this moment that we have to further

24     elaborate on this.  I see Mr. Misetic is nodding yes.

25             Let's move on.

Page 7559

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:

 3        Q.   I want to move to when you left the collection centre in Zadar

 4     and when you were collected by your nephew to leave.  And in your

 5     statement, you said that people who had relatives were allowed to leave

 6     those collection centres.

 7             Did you know of other people that were in those collection

 8     centres that also left with their families?

 9        A.   Yes.  I know who was there, but then quite a few people have died

10     as well.  Milosevic, Saja; Tadic, Milan; I was there; Milkovic, Jure,

11     then some people from Udbina; but I don't think who they were.  I have

12     forgotten their names and their last names too.  But I know our names.

13        Q.   I'm not asking for their names I'm just asking if in general you

14     know of other people that left the collection centre in Zadar with

15     members of their family that came to pick them up.  I'm not asking you to

16     list them, all of those, the ones you know.

17        A.   All right.  Quite a few of them left.  They went in different

18     directions, because when we came to the first collection centre, there

19     were more of us.  Then the inspectors and the police were asking

20     questions.  For example, 150 of us who were sort of not guilty, we were

21     transferred to another collection centre and the police was there, and I

22     know that they did not have long rifles.  They had short-barreled guns

23     and then people came from the Red Cross and from international

24     organisations and they gave us clothing and this and that and the other

25     thing and they said, Well, whoever had relatives or whatever, as a matter

Page 7560

 1     of fact, they even took some addresses from me.  I don't know whether

 2     they called my relatives or not.  Anyway the way it turned out was that

 3     my relative found out.  I called this man my nephew, but then he came to

 4     pic me up about 20 days later in Zadar.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now my next question from the people that left that

 6     collection centre because they were collected by members of their family,

 7     did any of them go back to the territory that was controlled by the RSK

 8     previously; and I'm specifically referring to either Obrovac, Benkovac,

 9     Gracac, or Donji Lapac.

10        A.   I don't know about Benkovac and Gracac.  I don't know that very

11     well.  I don't know, really.  I only know of Lapac.

12        Q.   And do you know of anyone that left the collection centre in

13     Zadar and went back to Lapac directly?

14        A.   I know of this Tadic, Milan, I know of the Milosevic woman, I

15     know of myself.  I know of Jure Milkovic.  I know of the four of us.

16     Also, there was this man called Milan Sarac, who returned with his wife.

17        Q.   I'm asking whether they went back directly from Zadar to

18     Donji Lapac.  My understanding from your statement is that you first went

19     to Zagreb with your nephew and then later on in September you returned to

20     Donji Lapac.  I'm asking if you are aware whether these other people went

21     directly from Zadar to --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   To Donji Lapac or whether they had to go somewhere else first.

24        A.   Most of them went to Zagreb because they had children and whoever

25     else and then I went to stay with my nephew and niece and then

Page 7561

 1     afterwards, I don't know how to put this.  I started dealing with my

 2     papers the latest in Donji Lapac and perhaps I was the first to go to

 3     Lapac within two weeks, and they stayed with their children in Zagreb.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  The last subject that I want to cover is what you saw

 5     in both Lapac and Oraovac in terms of both burning and looting.

 6             Did you see anyone carrying goods out of houses in either Lapac

 7     or Oraovac, after you returned?

 8        A.   After I returned, or, rather while I was still in Oraovac looting

 9     started a bit of looting that was the army was doing and then when I

10     returned to Lapac then people were taking whatever they could take

11     refugees came from Bosnia.  They had nothing, so they carried all sorts

12     of things and I was looking for a bed so that I'd have a place to sleep

13     at least.

14        Q.   Can you give the Court a little more detail as to who was doing

15     the looting and when.  Now you mentioned the army; you mentioned some

16     refugees.  Can you please tell the Court who was looting when, to the

17     extent that you know.

18        A.   I cannot tell you exactly what the dates were.  The army that had

19     stayed behind in Lapac, they were looting.  And then the people who had

20     come from Bosnia were looting too.  They were not hiding.  They didn't

21     dare say anything to the military.  The military is the military, after

22     all, so -- well, that was after Storm, because they stayed bit longer in

23     Lapac.

24        Q.   So when, in your answer you said the army had stayed behind and

25     then the people who had come from Bosnia were looting.  Are you saying

Page 7562

 1     that the army was looting first and then --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to the leading.

 3     If he could just ask the question.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm asked him.  I'm trying to clarify.  He says

 5     then.  I'm trying to find out what he means by "then," if it's the

 6     same --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  then perhaps you ask him

 8     what he meant by that, and of course you are giving a possible

 9     chronological order.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Just trying to expedite the thing but that's fine,

12     Your Honour.

13        Q.   When you said the army had stayed behind in Lapac they were

14     looting and then the people who had come from Bosnia were looting too,

15     what do you mean by that?

16        A.   This is the way I'm going to put it.  The army were looting and

17     then taking things away on trucks, and I don't know where they went.

18             As for Bosnians who came they were staying in houses that had not

19     burned down completely.  They were trying to find things on which they

20     could sleep and they were trying to find whatever they could in the

21     houses or, rather, on the floors that had not been burned down.

22             As for the army, whatever they took, they took away.  They took

23     it away on trucks.

24        Q.   Were the army and the Bosnian refugees looting at the same time?

25        A.   No, no, not at the same time, no.  They were hiding.  They didn't

Page 7563

 1     want the police to notice what they were doing.  All sorts of things were

 2     going on.

 3        Q.   Was there one group that was looting before the other --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter did not hear the witness.  The

 5     other speakers were overlapping.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, you interrupted.  One second, please.

 7     You interrupted the witness when he was giving his answer.

 8             Witness, you said all sorts of things were going on and then you

 9     added something to that.  Could you please repeat that.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you talking to me?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I was.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What kind of things?  What kind of

13     things are interested in so I make it clearer for you.  Are you asking

14     about what I was telling about previously?  Well, I can tell you, the

15     army, they took away on truck what it was that they had stolen.

16             As for the Croats from Bosnia, they came to Lapac and others came

17     to Korenica and others transferred to Lapac, and they took whatever they

18     found.  Well, that is the way it was so they would have someplace to

19     sleep, whatever.  Well, as I did myself.

20             MR. HEDARALY:

21        Q.   Were the two groups of the army and the refugees looting at the

22     same time and by that mean were they alternating, like you would see them

23     one looting and then the other looting or was it one group and then the

24     other group, if you recall?

25        A.   I don't think that is what happened.  As far as I can remember,

Page 7564

 1     they weren't doing it at the same time because the Croats didn't show up

 2     when the army -- I mean well, when they were not there, that is when the

 3     others went into action.

 4        Q.   In your second statement, you talk about a street where your

 5     house is, where all the houses had been looted except one house that

 6     belonged to a -- to a Muslim man.  Do you remember that in your

 7     statement?

 8        A.   They were looted.  But let me tell you quite openly.  When I

 9     returned, I went to see the mayor.  My house had been torched and I asked

10     whether I could move into a Muslim house.  That was right across the

11     street on the other side of the road.  And the mayor let me do that.

12             I kept all the things that were in the house until the old woman

13     came back.

14        Q.   Let me refer to you in paragraph 17 of your 2005 statement.  I'm

15     going to read a few lines from there.  It starts at the second sentence

16     where you say:

17             "But everything in my home was burnt on the ground and destroyed.

18     Everything in the entire street was destroyed except one house which

19     belonged to a Muslim which was not destroyed.  About 70 per cent of the

20     buildings in Donji Lapac were destroyed."

21             Now I want to ask you about this one house that was not

22     destroyed, which belonged to a Muslim.

23        A.   Could you please repeat that?  I didn't hear you well.

24        Q.   Of course.  You say:

25             "Everything in my home was burnt to the ground and destroyed.

Page 7565

 1     Everything in the entire street was destroyed except one house which

 2     belonged to a Muslim which was not destroyed.  About 70 per cent of the

 3     buildings in Donji Lapac were destroyed?"

 4             Is that accurate?

 5        A.   Yes, that is accurate, exactly.

 6        Q.   Now the house that belonged to a Muslim, can you tell the Court

 7     what was the ethnicity of his wife?

 8        A.   She was a Croat.  But she lived in the same neighbourhood with us

 9     for over 30 years.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour I don't have any other questions, but

12     I would like at this time to move into evidence from the bar table 12

13     documents regarding the exhumation and forensic examination of the four

14     victims to that killing incident.  These documents are similar to those

15     introduced for other killings.  There is an additional issue.  The first

16     ten documents relate to three of the four victims that were identified.

17     The last two documents relate to a fourth victim that was not formally

18     identified but that the Prosecution believes is the fourth victim,

19     Ruza Bibic; and the reason for that is the four bodies were collected on

20     the same day, on the 4th of September, 1995 from the same location

21     Oraovac, 50 metres east of the last house and the numbers assigned to

22     those four bodies before being buried were consecutive 569 to 572.  In

23     addition, they were buried next to each other in the Gracac cemetery as

24     the exhumation numbers are also consecutive G 03/015 to 018 and finally

25     the last reason why the Prosecution believes that it is Ruzica Bibic is

Page 7566

 1     that this witness in his statement at paragraph 21 in his 2005 statement

 2     says, "I am not sure exactly what she was wearing, she normally wore a

 3     pair of plastic shoes and a button-up dress," and that is what a summary

 4     of the autopsy report says she was found with.

 5             I think there was an objection to the last document that is why I

 6     wanted to give these reasons, but we would like to move those 12

 7     documents into evidence at this time.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  First of all, you told us that you had no

 9     further questions, although I expected a question about the video that

10     was shown to the witness; you may have forgotten about that.  But since

11     you have now tendered these documents perhaps we first deal with that.

12             Mr. Mikulicic.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I will object to the last two

14     documents because while it is only believed that this was a body of the

15     deceased person and this is not for certain the body was not identified

16     as such; so I believe the probative value of such document is not on a

17     high level.

18             So my objections goes mainly on the probative value of the

19     documents.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Now, Mr. Mikulicic, you're telling us that since the body has not

22     been identified that therefore this document has not -- these documents

23     do not have probative value.

24             From what I understand from Mr. Hedaraly that these are elements

25     to -- to contribute to the identification of those witnesses.  If we say,

Page 7567

 1     They are not been identified, therefore, documents which might be

 2     relevant or might play a role in the identification should be excluded

 3     because the body has not been identified then we have a snake which bites

 4     on its own tail isn't it.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  Perhaps you're right, Your Honour, what I meant

 6     was that the body was not positively identified by DNA method as the

 7     other three bodies were.  So that is my main concern, nothing else.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if there is it no DNA identification, and if

 9     the Prosecution intends to identify that body, then it should be done by

10     other means whether that will be successful or not of course is a

11     different matter.

12             But let me just confer.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  This objection is denied, Mr. Mikulicic.

15             Are there any other objections against these documents?

16             There's one issue, Mr. Hedaraly, I do understand that from the

17     exhibit list that the numbering from the last document that is the

18     autopsy report for body G 03/017 B, that the numbering, as we find it on

19     your exhibit list is not correct.  That means 65 ter number --

20             MR. HEDARALY:  That is -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think I send

21     them to Mr. Registrar, but perhaps we forgot to send a copy to the

22     Chambers.  It should be the report for body G 03/016 B P and the 65 ter

23     number is it 5403.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since this document has been further

25     identified, no objections.  Then, in the absence of any objections, the

Page 7568

 1     documents -- Mr. Registrar I think no numbers have yet been assigned to

 2     them.  They are admitted but the formal decision on admission will be

 3     taken after they have assigned -- after exhibit numbers have been

 4     assigned to them.  We'll hear later from the registrar.  He will prepare

 5     a list in which we find the documents and the numbers assigned to them.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  I just want to caution Mr. Registrar there are 12

 7     documents there are more on the list because some of them have the same

 8     65 ter number because are the same lists identifying different people so

 9     there's 12 new exhibits that should be given and one of the document

10     appears three times although 14 documents listed there, there are only 12

11     documents listed there, just in case there is any confusion.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar will be happy to have a little

13     puzzle before him I'm certain, I'm confident that he will be able to

14     resolve that puzzle with your assistance Mr. Hedaraly.

15             Now there was one remaining issue.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, I apologise Mr. President, I forgot.  I

17     didn't have it written down, which is my mistake.

18             Mr. Ilic, earlier we were talking about the uniforms that the

19     soldiers were wearing.  You referred to a video that you watched.  Now,

20     are you referring to pictures that were shown to you on a computer?  Are

21     you referring to a video that was played for you?

22        A.   How can I explain this to you?  There was there gentleman here

23     yesterday.  He put this video cassette there and displayed soldiers

24     showing their uniforms and I said well, this was it and he also asked me

25     whether it was green or grey and I said one was camouflage,

Page 7569

 1     multi-coloured and when I saw this I said, Well and then he said it was

 2     maybe these soldiers, no way, well anyway, not those soldiers that what

 3     was the uniform was because I don't know.  I don't know -- I don't know

 4     how to explain this.  It wasn't green/grey.  It was -- well, like a

 5     military uniform that you would wear for a long time, and when it gets

 6     old ...

 7        Q.   I think can I can clarify the confusion.  It was a CD with some

 8     pictures that are exhibits that were played.  It wasn't a video, but were

 9     pictures that were shown that are in the proofing note that he referred

10     to, so the witness thinks it is a video.  I'm the gentleman he is

11     referring to.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You're the gentleman he is referring to.

13             I'm looking at the Defence, and I take it if you want to put

14     further questions that Mr. Hedaraly would be the first one to know what

15     other questions to put to the witness in relation to that.  I leave it up

16     to the Defence to further deal with the matter.

17             No further questions, Mr. Hedaraly?

18             MR. HEDARALY:  No Mr. President, that is it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ilic, these were the questions Mr. Hedaraly

20     wanted to put to you.

21             Now who will be the first one; it will it be you Mr. Mikulicic?

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will be the one.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ilic, you will now be cross-examined by

24     Mr. Mikulicic; and Mr. Mikulicic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

Page 7570

 1             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Ilic.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   I am General Markac's Defence counsel in the case that you are

 5     testifying in and an on behalf of the Defence, I'm going to put a few

 6     questions to you.  I am aware of the fact that it has been a long time

 7     now since all of these things happened, but I kindly ask to you try to

 8     remember an answer these questions to the best of your recollection.

 9             Mr. Ilic, you completed elementary school, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And after that, you got a job at the lumber mill, right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You did your military service in the former Yugoslav people's

14     army?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Tell us, did you receive some military training in the sense of

17     recognizing weapons by their form or by the sound of gun-fire?

18        A.   Sir, as far as weapons are concerned, while I did my military

19     service in 1960 I was in engineering units and I mostly worked on the

20     road.  I didn't really see weapons.  I was in Karlovac for six months and

21     I was a leader there, and then I was transferred to Belgrade.

22        Q.   I understand that.  Let us go back to what happened in

23     Donji Lapac.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Tell us, in Donji Lapac, at the time when you lived there in

Page 7571

 1     1995, was there a police station there?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you remember where it was, where it was located in town?

 4        A.   Right in the centre of town where a new one was built now.

 5     That's where it was.

 6        Q.   When you say that "now a new one was built"?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What happened to the old police station?

 9        A.   It was torched.  When the municipal building burned down, the two

10     buildings were nearby, and that's how they both burned down.

11        Q.   In the municipal building that was close to the police station,

12     was there a defence office there as well?

13        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think so.  There was this other

14     building down there below it.  It was called the committee.

15        Q.   This other building where the defence department was,

16     approximately how far away was it from the police station and from this

17     other municipal building?

18        A.   Well, I don't know if there's 20 metres all in all.  Well, say 40

19     or 50 metres away from the police building because the police building

20     was near the municipality building, the municipality building was a bit

21     bigger, so it was there, opposite.

22        Q.   When answering the questions put to you by the Prosecutor, you

23     said that you saw shells falling in the centre of Lapac.  Do you remember

24     that?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

Page 7572

 1        Q.   Did you see shells hit the police station or the other two

 2     buildings that we've been talking about?

 3        A.   I did not see that, so I cannot say.

 4        Q.   Mr. Ilic, do you know that at the time of the Republic of Serbian

 5     Krajina, in this territory, there was something called the 103rd Lapac

 6     Infantry Brigade?

 7        A.   I have no idea whatsoever about that.

 8        Q.   Did you know, Mr. Ilic, what the function and task of the police

 9     was in Donji Lapac, in relation to the defence of the Republic of Serbian

10     Krajina at the time?

11        A.   Sir, to tell you quite openly, I did not like being in contact

12     with the police then.  I don't like it now.  I don't know.

13        Q.   I understand that.

14             You said that you left Donji Lapac on the 7th of August, 1995 and

15     that you went to Oraovac?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   While you were still in Donji Lapac, and I'm referring to the 6th

18     of August, did you notice that there were columns of people and military

19     vehicles moving down the road?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Tell us, do you remember whether these military vehicles were

22     moving together with the civilian population or separately?

23        A.   Well, it's not surprising that it was separate, but the civilians

24     from Korenica, Licki Osijek, Udbina, all of that was moving from Udbina,

25     Licki Petrovac; all of them were on the move through Lapac there were

Page 7573

 1     civilians there, with carts, with vehicles, all sorts of things.

 2        Q.   When you talked about your street, that is Antuna Gustava Matosa,

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   In Donji Lapac?  Did other Croats live in that street too, or was

 6     the lady in the building opposite the only Croat person there?

 7        A.   There was another lady who was a neighbour who was also a Croat.

 8     She originally came from Drnis.

 9        Q.   What happened to her house; do you know?

10        A.   The same thing.  Her house burned down too, except that now it

11     has been restored and the old woman returned to the house, together with

12     her children.

13        Q.   Could we now please go back to the description of the uniforms

14     that we already discussed earlier, and I'm referring here to the uniforms

15     that were worn by the soldiers who came to Oraovac to the house of your

16     brothers, where you were.

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   I know that many years have passed.  However, in your statement

19     from 1995 [as interpreted] - in other words four years after the events -

20     you described these uniforms as grey uniforms.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction 1999 four years after

22     the events.

23             MR. MIKULICIC:

24        Q.   Please go on, just tell us what you --

25        A.   I'm trying to hear your question better, so I will wait for your

Page 7574

 1     question.

 2        Q.   What I'm saying was that in your statement of 1999, you described

 3     the uniforms of the soldiers who came to Oraovac as being grey.  Do you

 4     recall that?

 5        A.   I said that there were camouflage uniforms and grey uniforms, but

 6     these grey uniforms, they were sort of greyish-green.  It is hard to

 7     describe what they looked like.  They looked like the old uniforms that

 8     the Yugoslav army had but washed out, you know a bit different.

 9        Q.   Do you remember if these soldiers wore any caps?

10        A.   Yes, they had caps and they also -- and they -- these caps were

11     on their shoulders.

12        Q.   What did these caps look like?  Can you describe them?  What

13     colour were they?

14        A.   I couldn't really say.  They were -- some of them were of various

15     colours, but I couldn't really see.

16        Q.   Mr. Ilic, do you recall whether these soldiers had uniforms that

17     matched, so both the upper -- the top and the bottom matched?  And I mean

18     matched in colour.

19        A.   Yeah.  Well, the people in these camouflage uniforms, they had

20     the tops and the bottoms were the same.  As for the others, they had all

21     kinds of different tops and bottoms.

22        Q.   You also described some insignia that you remembered that you saw

23     on these uniforms.  You said in your 1999 statement - this was in

24     paragraph 4, the last paragraph on the first page - you said that these

25     uniforms had some twigs on the -- on the insignia on the sleeve.

Page 7575

 1             Can you just clarify this a bit?

 2        A.   You know what, sir?  I know that the men who had camouflage

 3     uniforms, they had some insignia on the sleeves.  If you were to show me

 4     all these different symbols now, then could I tell you well, this is what

 5     they had.  But I couldn't really describe it even now.  And as for the

 6     other ones, the ones that had grey uniforms, they didn't have any

 7     insignia on their sleeves.

 8        Q.   Mr. Ilic, let me ask you this:  In your 1999 statement, speaking

 9     about this in the last paragraph, you said the following, and I will read

10     it now:

11             "I never saw any crime being committed myself.  Yes, I did see

12     torched houses or burning houses, but I never saw who or how did this.  I

13     never saw anyone looting.  My house in Donji Lapac was burnt down, but of

14     course I do not know who or when did this.  Our house in Oraovac was not

15     touched but some items were missing.  I was told that refugees from

16     Bosnia took some things with them.  They simply needed them for living."

17             Sir, what I've just read, is this what your recollection was in

18     1999 regarding these events?

19        A.   I don't know who wrote that, but I know that in every statement I

20     spoke about these four people who were killed together with my brother;

21     these three people and my brother.  To be honest, I didn't see any other

22     victims.  I just know about these, and I don't know what's written there

23     or who wrote that.

24             I also had occasion, once, when two people came from The Hague, a

25     Russian and an Australian woman.  I asked them to tell me what they had

Page 7576

 1     read on the internet and when they read it back to me, I just told them

 2     that I didn't say what they had written down.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Could we now please be shown Exhibit P725.

 4        Q.   Mr. Ilic, when you see --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... will there be

 6     any follow-up questions in relation to your last question?

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  I would like just to prove through the witness

 8     that he signed the statement which I'm referring to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As a matter of fact, it comes as a bit of a

10     surprise to me, Mr. Mikulicic, for the following reasons.  First of all,

11     of course, we have heard the answer of the witness on a matter which

12     it -- it gave me the impression for one second that you would seek

13     confirmation of a portion of the statement which was already confirmed by

14     the witness although in answer to your question it looked even a bit

15     different.

16             Cross-examination is not meant to seek the witness to repeat what

17     is already in evidence and apparently the portions you like most.  That's

18     not what cross-examination is for.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I am fully aware of it.  What

21     I had in mind is confront the witness with his today's statement, when he

22     was talking about the looting and the burning and with his previous

23     statement from 1999.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that for the line of looting that makes

25     sense.  For the others, there's a -- yes.

Page 7577

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will proceed.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ilic, about my question to you whether you

 5     signed this statement of 1999, I think that is not in question.  You did

 6     sign it, right?

 7        A.   Yes, right.  However, I may have signed it, but what is written

 8     in it and how it was written, I really don't know.  I saw these four

 9     people killed, these four victims; so I don't know what you mean by my

10     stating that I have never seen any other victims and what that is meant

11     for.

12        Q.   Mr. Ilic, I apologise.  Perhaps you misunderstood my question or

13     I wasn't precise enough.

14        A.   That's not why I'm mentioning it, sir, but I feel uncomfortable

15     saying that I hadn't seen any victims when I did see these, and they were

16     even identified in Zagreb, so I don't know what is going on here, what's

17     happening.  I wonder ...

18        Q.   Mr. Ilic, I did not put any questions about victims, and I

19     respect what you have said.  What I am trying to ask you, what I'm asking

20     you is this:  Is this correct, as you said in 1999, that you had never

21     seen anyone loot -- looting.  Is that correct?

22        A.   What do you mean I never saw anyone?  Of course I did.  As I

23     said, both military men and also these Bosnian people, my countrymen.  So

24     I can only tell you that I had to look for something to lay down on.

25        Q.   Thank you for your answers, Mr. Ilic.  I have no further

Page 7578

 1     questions.

 2        A.   Thank you.

 3             MR. KAY:  I have no questions, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

 5             Mr. Misetic.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have no questions for the witness I

 7     have one bar table submission on this point.  If I could call up

 8     1D46-0001.

 9             Your Honour, this is -- we are created this exhibit.  It is D280,

10     G it is already admitted into evidence obviously.  It shows the line of

11     separation between what is the Military District Gospic and Military

12     District Split and all we have done is on 280 G, D280 G circled where

13     Oraovac is; and I asked that the exhibit be marked and we tender it into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr.  Registrar, could you please assign a

18     number to the --

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00726, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D726, you said, Mr. -- one second.

21             The document is admitted into evidence.  I was just -- yes.  I

22     was just -- I noticed that we were the P numbering was also 726 and I

23     wondered whether there was any mistake, but apparently the parties move

24     on in a similar speed as far as the production of evidence is concerned.

25             D726 is admitted into evidence.

Page 7579

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ilic, Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions

 3     for you.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Yes, if I could take you back to your statement

 6     of July 1999, on the first page, the last paragraph.  You mentioned there

 7     that before Operation Storm started, most of the people had already left

 8     and there were only six left.

 9             Do you know exactly when they left and what made them leave?

10        A.   Is that your question?  Yes.  On the 5th and 6th, as I already

11     said in western Lika and Lapac all the columns came that way.  I don't

12     know how word came out that there will be an attack.  I can't say that,

13     because I heard on the radio that there was already something happening

14     in Knin on the 5th, and then the Dalmatians and these men, our men they

15     were all withdrawing, and they left.

16             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Yes, thank you.

17             The second question that I have for you relates to something that

18     is recorded in your second statement of March 2005, and I'm referring to

19     page 6, paragraph 16.

20             You said there:

21             "In Zadar we were put into a collection centre.  We were

22     questioned by various inspectors in civilian clothing and divided into

23     groups.  Those who had done something wrong and those that hadn't" -- and

24     I think in your evidence you mentioned something about those who were not

25     guilty.

Page 7580

 1             Would you know what it is that was considered to be wrong; and

 2     also do you know what then happened to those who had been considered to

 3     have done something wrong?

 4        A.   About those who remained, I don't know anything, but our group,

 5     mostly these were older people and women and children.  We were moved to

 6     this other collection centre, and, as I said today, when the Red Cross

 7     came, the international representatives, if we had relatives, anyone who

 8     had relatives they could be picked up by the relatives.  And even when

 9     they came for us, they would send us to the police to bring a document

10     showing that we weren't in the army of the Republika Srpska.  And then as

11     soon as I brought that, I was set free and I left for Zagreb.

12             As for the others, I have no idea where they are.  I didn't know

13     these people.  Because among -- in the group that came with me, I knew

14     those people, so all the others, they were allowed to leave for Serbia.

15     That is what I can tell you, that is what I know.

16             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Thank you for that answer.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ilic, I have a few questions for you.

18             The first one is about what you told us about the shelling, when

19     you left Donji Lapac and when you went to Oraovac.

20             You said that shells fell in the centre of Donji Lapac.  Did they

21     fall there only; or did you see shells falling in or locations as well?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw shells falling on the centre.

23     I also saw in Lapac shells falling near the lumber mill and then in a

24     part of Lapac that we call Rasita [phoen] and then where our streets were

25     and the gas station; and I think a few houses there were destroyed.

Page 7581

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you describe in more detail the type of

 2     structures that were hit by the shells?  You --

 3        A.   You mean those five houses, that?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, those five houses.  For example, were these

 5     houses inhabited by persons or were they used for other purposes.

 6        A.   I think that everyone had moved out from those houses, that there

 7     was no one there.  And it was my opinion that maybe there were some

 8     troops there and that's why it was shelled.  When the shelling ended,

 9     then the troops came in.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You said maybe there were some troop there is

11     that -- -- do you mean to say that in those houses there were troops and

12     that for that reason --

13        A.   No, no, no, that's not what I said.  This was shelled although

14     there was no army there, there were no Croatian soldiers in Lapac either.

15     When the shelling ended around 10.00, then the Croatian army came, walked

16     into this area into Donji Lapac.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now those houses, how far away were they from the

18     police building, the municipality building or what you call the committee

19     building.  Were they nearby, were they far away?

20        A.   How can I describe this, how far it was.  The police station was

21     there, it wasn't too far away.  It was close to the municipal building,

22     maybe some ten metres away.  And the police moved in there, and that's

23     where their police headquarters were, or their station, until the new

24     police premises were built.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not sure that you understood my question

Page 7582

 1     correctly.  What I was asking you about is the distance between the

 2     houses that were hit by shells and the buildings you just mentioned.

 3     Were these houses close to it, or were they further away from these

 4     buildings you just mentioned?

 5        A.   This was where the police station was.  That was close to the

 6     municipal building.  As for the other one, well, it was near the post

 7     office, the former committee, the bank.  All of this was shelled.  It was

 8     all in the same area.  And I'm really surprised how this house that was

 9     close to the municipal building was not hit.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

11             Now, Mr. Ilic, when you gave your statement about looting, what

12     do you exactly understand looting to be?

13        A.   Well, they looted the basic essentials, you know, beds and pots

14     and pans.  What else could you loot?  There was nothing else there.  No

15     boards or wood were taken away, but if they found -- whatever they could

16     find.  If they found bed or beds, whatever they found.  It depends.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, could I take you first to the -- to the

18     time when you left Donji Lapac and went to Oraovac.

19             During that time, did you see anyone taking goods, and, if so,

20     what kind of goods?

21        A.   No, not at that time.  I didn't see it at the time when I left

22     Lapac for Oraovac.  I didn't see any looting then, by anyone.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, after you had returned, you told us about

24     the looting had started, and we find in your statement that refugees from

25     Bosnia took some things.  And you said:  "They simply needed them for

Page 7583

 1     living."

 2             Now, when you were talking about looting, did you refer to this

 3     taking goods you would need for living?

 4        A.   Talking to whom?  To whom did I say that I needed that?  I didn't

 5     quite understand your question.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what I see in your statement, you said:  "I

 7     was told that refugees from Bosnia took some things.  They simply needed

 8     them for living."

 9             And apparently you are referring to the situation after you had

10     returned to Donji Lapac.  You also --

11        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's right.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You also testified that at a certain moment the

13     looting started.

14             Now, when you talked about looting, were you referring to taking

15     the goods --

16        A.   Go on, go on.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you referring to taking the goods --

18        A.   Well, how else can I describe this?  They took these carts, they

19     put whatever they could on them and then just drove them away.  So what

20     else could you call it but looting?  If -- if you meaning is else, of

21     course, then, you would use another word.  I couldn't say anything else.

22     I could just say it the way I did.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm trying to fully understand your testimony in

24     this respect.

25             I think you said that you needed a bed as well and that you may

Page 7584

 1     have been seeking a bed for your own needs.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, of course.  Of course it's correct.  Because there was

 3     nothing in my house, so I looked for some sofa or even an old one just to

 4     have something to lie down so -- so I wouldn't have to lie down on the

 5     concrete on the floor.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, what you saw others doing was that

 7     similar to what you did; that is, if I need a bed, I take one bed for my

 8     own personal needs, or did you see people taking more than what they

 9     would need for their personal life?

10        A.   Well, let me describe it exactly.  I saw situations where they

11     had electric stoves or refrigerators and they would take these away, drag

12     away.  Whatever they found that was still in working order, they took it

13     away.  They took it away -- carted it away.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then would they then take one refrigerator

15     because I would understand one refrigerator to be for the personal need

16     of one family, or did you see them loading more than what one family

17     would need?

18        A.   Ma'am [sic], to be honest with you, I didn't really know I knew

19     them -- I didn't know them then, and I don't know them now; and I

20     couldn't tell you whether this was Franjo or Mario doing it.  Well, at

21     the time I didn't know them, now I do, but at that time I didn't; so I

22     couldn't tell who it was because I didn't know them.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you who it was, I'm asking you what

24     you saw people taking goods whether you gained the impression that this

25     was for their personal needs or whether it went beyond that and that they

Page 7585

 1     would take, for example, more refrigerators than a family could possibly

 2     use.

 3        A.   I thought they were taking what they needed.  As for the rest, I

 4     wasn't really thinking about whether they were taking the things away so

 5     they could resell them.  I thought they were just taking what they

 6     needed.  Whether they took anything on top of that, I wouldn't know about

 7     that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you also told us about soldiers looting.  Was

 9     that in a similar way as you saw others doing it; or was it any

10     different?

11        A.   It was different.  The troops, where they found furniture, where

12     they found building materials, they carted all this away.  They would put

13     it on a pile and then bring in trucks, load them on trucks, and take them

14     away.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ilic, I have no further questions for you.

16             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need --

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, as far as a proper procedural order is

19     concerned, I think I should have given you first an opportunity it put

20     further questions in -- I don't know whether you had any wish to put

21     further questions to the witness, but I should have given you an

22     opportunity to do so.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions by the Bench raised any need?

25             Then, Mr. Ilic, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd

Page 7586

 1     like to thank you very much for coming to the place where you were

 2     examined, and I hope you have a safe trip home again.  I hope that you

 3     will be, in time, back home so as to be able to celebrate your birthday

 4     tomorrow among those close to you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you

 6     again.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  This then concludes the videolink.  It can be

 8     closed.

 9                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

10     JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd like to proceed with the list which was just

11     prepared by our registrar assigning exhibit numbers to the bar table

12     documents that is P727 up to and including P738.

13             Mr. Hedaraly, the registrar was able to reduce the 14 to 12.  I

14     take it that you carefully checked the 65 ter list.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  We did, Your Honour, and it is accurate.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I had not expected anything else from the

17     registrar.

18             P727 up to and including P738 is admitted into evidence.

19             Finally, Mr. Mikulicic, think that earlier today I was too quick

20     in explaining to you what cross-examination was for and what it was not

21     for.  I should have refrained from doing that at that moment, but I

22     missed at least part of the point that you would like to make, and I just

23     want to let you know that that's how I understand it at this moment.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I'm much obliged to this, but there

25     is really no need -- for your explanation.

Page 7587

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it is important to be clear on these matters

 2     as well.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn until Monday, the 1st of September, 9.00,

 6     Courtroom I.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.18 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of

 9                           September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.