Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8793

 1                           Tuesday, 16 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             I apologise for the late start today.  At airports you always

13     hear that is due to the late arrival of the plane while similar

14     situations exist today.

15             Mr. Margetts, are you ready to continue the examination of

16     Mr. Lyntton.

17             MR. MARGETTS:  Yes, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lyntton, I would like to remind that you are

19     still bound by the solemn declaration you gave yesterday at the beginning

20     of your testimony.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. MARGETTS:  Thank you.

24                           WITNESS:  RICHARD LYNTTON [Resumed]

25                           Examination by Mr. Margetts: [Continued]

Page 8794

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Lyntton.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   As you are aware, your statement has now been admitted into

 4     evidence, and there is just a few matters that I'd like to go through

 5     with you in relation to the issues that you've already addressed in your

 6     statement.

 7             The first matter I'd like you to turn your mind to is the

 8     interview that you conducted with the elderly couple on the morning of

 9     the 25th of August, on your way to what you anticipated would be a

10     meeting in the region of the Plavno valley.

11             MR. MARGETTS:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have the English

12     transcript of Exhibit P871, that's 65 ter 5463, displayed on the screen.

13        Q.   And I don't have much to ask you about this particular interview,

14     other than for you to look down this first page of this transcript here.

15     And if you could identify for the Court whether or not this is the

16     transcript of the interview that you conducted with that elderly couple.

17             MR. MARGETTS:  For the Court's reference, the reference to this

18     interview and Mr. Lyntton's statement is in paragraph 9 of his statement.

19        Q.   Yes, Mr. Lyntton, is that a transcript of the interview you

20     conducted with the elderly couple?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             MR. MARGETTS:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  If we could move on to

24     the next issue.

25        Q.   Following that interview of the elder couple, you proceeded to

Page 8795

 1     the village where you anticipated there would be a meeting.  In fact, the

 2     chief of police didn't arrive and you proceeded to interview one of the

 3     local villagers.

 4             Now, at some stage, you were informed that there was smoke in the

 5     valley, and the camera was turned towards those plumes of smoke.  I'd

 6     just like to display for you on the screen some footage that was taken.

 7             MR. MARGETTS:  And, Mr. Registrar, if -- what we will, in fact,

 8     play now is a segment of P872, starting from counter reference

 9     21 minutes, 54 seconds.

10             And, Your Honours, for your reference, the reference to the

11     plumes of smoke is in paragraph 13 of Mr. Lyntton's statement.

12                           [Videotape played]

13             MR. MARGETTS:

14        Q.   Mr. Lyntton, is this footage of the plumes of smoke from the

15     vantage point of the village where you met with the villagers?

16        A.   The first one there from the higher plain was from the village.

17     This one to me seems as if we were on the way to the village.

18        Q.   So where were you situated when this frame that's now displayed,

19     which is at counter reference for the record 22 minutes, 22.5 seconds,

20     where were you in the valley at that stage?

21        A.   We were, I would say, about halfway between the original starting

22     point and our destination, which was the village.

23        Q.   Now, you referred to travelling from the initial village toward

24     these plumes of smoke and you crossed a main road?

25        A.   Mm-hm.

Page 8796

 1        Q.   Was that main road in the valley?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And would it have been in the vicinity of this vantage point?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you also referred in your statement to seeing some police

 6     vehicles located near that main road.  Would have those police vehicles

 7     been in the vicinity of the vantage point that we see here, looking back

 8     to the plumes of smoke?

 9        A.   Yes.  This angle, I would say, we may either have just passed

10     those police vehicles or we may just be getting to them.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'd like to now turn to footage you have as

12     you proceeded toward -- footage that was shot as you proceeded towards

13     the village.

14             MR. MARGETTS:  And if I could ask the case manager, please, to

15     play -- to move forward on that video to the counter reference 23 minutes

16     and 10.23 seconds.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             MR. MARGETTS:  And for Your Honours' reference, at paragraph 15

19     of Mr. Lyntton's statement, he refers to driving up a little stream to

20     get to Grubori.

21        Q.   This footage that you've just seen, Mr. Lyntton, is that a

22     depiction of the part of the drive you are referring to in your

23     statement?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Now, I'd just like to leave that topic and move to the interview

Page 8797

 1     that you conducted the next day with General Cermak.

 2             MR. MARGETTS:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have displayed on

 3     the screen Exhibit P504, and, in fact, the English transcript of that

 4     video interview, and if we could display page 1.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Lyntton, in your statement, you describe that -- the

 6     interview that you conducted with General Ivan Cermak, and here we have

 7     the transcript of that interview.

 8             First part of that interview I'd like to refer you to, you'll see

 9     in the middle of the page displayed on the left there in English.  It's

10     the bottom of the second answer that General Cermak provides; and he

11     says, in reference to the village of Grubori, that one or two houses were

12     burnt in the operation.

13             Is that consistent with your observations?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And your observations were that more or less houses were burnt?

16        A.   More.

17        Q.   Secondly, following on the next sentence, he says that one

18     Serbian terrorist was arrested and one body was found, and he believes

19     that body was the body of a Croatian army soldier because he had his

20     hands tied with a wire behind his back?

21             Now, just for clarification, you had been in the village that

22     morning prior to interviewing General Cermak?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Had you observed anything of the nature of what General Cermak

25     describes there?

Page 8798

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   If we could then move to the third answer that you see on that

 3     page, and it's down toward the bottom there.  And he refers to the

 4     operation being conducted by special police, and he says:  "And at that

 5     moment when they were fired at, our special forces returned the fire and,

 6     well, that returning of fire resulted in, well, wounding and it resulted

 7     in setting houses on fire."

 8             Now, whilst you were in Plavno valley, did you hear any gunshots?

 9        A.   No.  We heard one gunshot the morning of, and during the first

10     interview that we talked about just now.

11        Q.   And that's audible on the videotape of that interview --

12        A.   Mm-hm.

13        Q.   Correct?

14        A.   Yeah.

15        Q.   And apart from that, you didn't hear any exchange of fire in the

16     valley?

17        A.   Nothing.

18        Q.   And when you were observing the houses in the village of Grubori,

19     was there anything you observed that suggested that the houses had been

20     set on fire in the manner that General Cermak describes; that is, that

21     the returning of fire resulted in the houses being set on fire?

22        A.   Basically, the villages looked as though -- it wasn't like there

23     was military fighting.  It just looked as if someone had gone around,

24     setting all the houses on fire.

25             So, can you just rephrase the question?  I'm not sure I totally

Page 8799

 1     understood it.

 2        Q.   Well, when you were there observing the houses, did you see any

 3     damage to the exterior of the houses?

 4        A.   No.  You mean like bullets, you know, gun-fire, anything like

 5     that?

 6        Q.   Yeah.  Anything consistent with a war operation.

 7        A.   No, no.  It was just basically just burning houses.

 8        Q.   And the burning houses, was there anything that you observed that

 9     would suggest to you how they could have been ignited?  I'm not

10     suggesting that you're an expert in field; and, obviously, there's no

11     need for you to venture into any opinions on this.  It's just as a person

12     being present in the village, you may be able to assist the Trial Chamber

13     by what you observed about the nature of the fire inside the houses, and

14     whether you made any observations about or -- about how the fires that

15     you saw could have been ignited?

16        A.   I mean, it looked to me every house almost or I think about half

17     the houses had the window-frames were all burned or the roofs were either

18     burning or had been burned.  And to me, just in the back of my mind, it

19     looked like someone had gone around with a flaming torch and just kind of

20     chucked a torch inside every house that they fancied.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. MARGETTS:  If we could move now --

23        A.   If I might add, the doors, for example, none of the doors were

24     off, everything was normal, except for the fact that the houses were

25     burn.

Page 8800

 1        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 2             MR. MARGETTS:  If we could move to page 2 of the interview,

 3     please, Mr. Registrar.

 4        Q.   Now, if you see in the first answer provided by General Cermak on

 5     that page, he says that the Croatian civilian authorities got to this

 6     village - referring to Grubori - looked after the people, organised

 7     humanitarian assistance for them.

 8        A.   Sorry.  Where is this?

 9        Q.   I'm sorry.  It's at the second paragraph that appears on the page

10     on the left.

11        A.   Okay.  I see it.

12        Q.   And it's the second sentence.

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   And he says that the authorities got to the village, they looked

15     after the people, organised humanitarian assistance for them, and other

16     assistance they need, and people stayed in their houses.

17             Now, did you observe, either when you were there around about the

18     middle of the day on the 25th of August or alternatively on the

19     26th August, did you observe any representatives of the Croatian

20     authorities in the village?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And in your discussion with villagers, did they make any

23     reference to any humanitarian assistance they had been provided?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. MARGETTS:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please scroll down on

Page 8801

 1     page 2 to the bottom.

 2        Q.   Now, just a note here, in your question at the bottom here,

 3     you're still referring to this topic of assistance provided, and you say:

 4     "Just one kilometre away ..."

 5             This is it the last question you ask on this page:  "Just one

 6     kilometre away from the burning village, there were ten --

 7        A.   Sorry.  I haven't got this on my page.

 8        Q.   Sorry.  On the left, on the screen --

 9        A.   Yeah.

10        Q.   -- you'll see the last -- the last full question.  The reference

11     is to Grubori at the bottom.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And then there's your question that proceeds Cermak -- General

14     Cermak's previous answer, and it commences:  "Can you tell him --

15        A.   Okay.

16        Q.   What I'm do is I'm referring down to part way through the second

17     sentence.  So starting at the end of the second line, there's a reference

18     that says:  "Just one kilometre away from the burning village, there were

19     ten Croatian police vehicles," and you say -- you ask a question as to

20     why they could not help the people who were remaining there.

21             MR. MARGETTS:  And now, Mr.  Registrar, if I could please refer

22     over to page 3, and to the top of page 3.

23        Q.   And, once again, this is your second question here.  You say:

24     "We're talking about six hours after the burning started.  There were ten

25     empty Croatian police vehicles," and you ask General Cermak how they

Page 8802

 1     could ignore the burning of the village.

 2             Now, then General Cermak answers you, and he says:  "Look, I

 3     don't know.  He asked me today.  The gentleman put the question to me

 4     today.  He said , 'Today I saw six police cars ... of this village.  I

 5     wasn't there.  I couldn't see that.  I can only tell the gentleman one

 6     thing.  Had we wanted to cover up anything,'" and then the answer

 7     continues.

 8             Now, at any time during your meeting with General Cermak, did you

 9     refer to the presence of six police vehicles or are the references that

10     are recorded on this transcript to ten police vehicles the only

11     references you made to General Cermak about the number of police

12     vehicles?

13        A.   That's correct.  This was the first time I had mentioned the

14     number of vehicles.

15        Q.   Now, did anyone else in your team, your production crew or to

16     your knowledge anyone else that met with General Cermak during the

17     preparation for the interview or the conduct of the interview, mention

18     the number of six police vehicles?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   The -- I don't have any further questions about the interview

21     with General Cermak.

22             MR. MARGETTS:  If we could move on now.

23        Q.   In your statement, you refer to the fact that following the

24     interview of General Cermak, you packaged up all of the footage that you

25     had taken, the footage in the valley and also the footage of the

Page 8803

 1     interview; and you arranged for that to be transported to Zagreb by

 2     helicopter, and you then proceeded by road back to Zagreb.

 3             Why did you arrange for the footage to be transported separately

 4     by helicopter?

 5        A.   We were scared.  The whole assignment -- I had in the back of my

 6     mind that a BBC cameraman, maybe six months or maybe a year before, had

 7     been shot for taking pictures of pillaging in the north of Croatia.  And

 8     to my mind, what we had shot that day was ten times more, maybe a 100

 9     times more potent than just some pillaging.

10             Plus, we had an interview with General Cermak, and we were going

11     to be on our own leaving the area.  So it made sense that we handed the

12     goods, as it were, over to the UN, the military and they could get it

13     out, because the helicopters landed in Knin.  There was regular flights

14     to Knin.  So we knew that, and I knew that one would be leaving that day,

15     probably.  So that's why we did that.

16        Q.   You referred to the -- you said what you had was 100 times more

17     potent, and you said, than just some pillaging.  Then you continue on:

18     "Plus, we had an interview with General Cermak ..."

19             Can you just explain a bit further, what was the nature of the

20     footage that you had and the nature of the interview that you had

21     conducted that in your mind made this footage potent, sufficient for it

22     to be transported separate to yourself?

23        A.   Well, obviously, ethnic cleansing had been in the lexicon for

24     some time now, and I had never seen anything like that and this was

25     pretty much the first time I had seen something like that.  So not only

Page 8804

 1     did we have -- I mean, we were there it must have been just maybe a

 2     couple of hours after the assault or whatever, you know, whatever it was

 3     took place in the village; then we had pictures of -- of dead bodies; and

 4     then we had an interview with what I presumed was the local commander,

 5     General Cermak, categorically denying any such activity.  And I just --

 6     you know, I had been there, I had seen it two hours before I spoke to

 7     him.

 8             So to me, as a journalist, as a story, you know, it was like a

 9     perfect story.  I had the evidence and then I had the denial.

10        Q.   A little further on in your statement, you also referred to the

11     fact that after you had driven out of Knin, some vehicles approached you

12     from behind.  Can you just explain to the Court what happened there, what

13     the nature of the vehicles was, and what you did when -- when those

14     vehicles approached from behind?

15        A.   So we decided that we wanted to get out of there as soon as

16     possible.  It was probably a three-hour drive maybe to -- I mean

17     two-hours to Split, to the coast, to the sort of normalization of

18     Croatia, you know, the seaside bit.

19             And as we drove out of that area, we saw two or three more little

20     hamlets alight, and this was dusk.  So you got to imagine you're driving

21     down a desolate road and there are still burning villages.  So it's not

22     like the fact that we shot some footage and had an interview with a

23     military commander had changed anything.  It seemed to still be going on.

24             But, then, in my -- in my mirror, I saw literally between ten and

25     15 white, again white, sort of mini-van type vehicles approaching behind

Page 8805

 1     us.  And I didn't know who they were, where they were going, if they were

 2     trying to find us because we shot this footage.  You know, you just don't

 3     know in that situation.

 4             So, at first, we sped up a bit.  We thought maybe we can, you

 5     know, outrun these guys just in case it's us they're looking for, which

 6     may seem a little overdramatic but, you know, we just didn't know.  We

 7     just wanted to get out of there.

 8             Then we thought, no, probably they -- you know, they don't want

 9     us.  We'll just pull over.  So we pulled over to the side of the road,

10     and they just went past.

11        Q.   And just my last question is just after you returned to Zagreb,

12     was any of the footage that you had shot shown on any commercial

13     television networks; and, if so, what parts of the footage were shown?

14        A.   My managing editor of UN TV, Roy Head, he -- he basically sent

15     the package or some of the package, some raw footage, to the networks.  I

16     mean BBC, CNN, Sky News UK.  And probably two or three days later, I

17     actually was at home in Zagreb in my apartment, and I saw a sort of 20-,

18     30-second report that, in fact, there was some claims of ethnic cleansing

19     on the Croatian side.

20             I don't remember exactly, but they used the burning house, they

21     used the old lady in my piece, and they used I think just a brief shot of

22     General Cermak denying that -- that there were old people in villages in

23     their pyjamas being taken out and shot.  The sort of denial bit of the

24     interview that he knew anything about it.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lyntton.  That concludes my questions.

Page 8806

 1             MR. MARGETTS:  And, thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

 2     questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Margetts.

 4             Who will be the first?  It will be you Ms. Higgins?

 5             Mr. Lyntton, you will be cross-examined by Ms. Higgins, who is

 6     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

 7                           Cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Lyntton, by October 1994, it's correct, isn't it, that

 9     you had left the military after five years of service and you joined the

10     UN TV?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And by August 1995, your job was as a producer for UN TV?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, we've seen from the films that you have provided to the

15     Prosecution that perhaps, as well as being the producer, you were

16     always -- you were rather also involved in the direction of those films,

17     very hands on.  Would you agree?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And sometimes in the role that you performed for UN TV, you would

20     be involved, presumably, in researching your stories and the people that

21     were going to be taking part in your features.  Correct?

22        A.   Sometimes -- there was the case sometimes I was simply given an

23     assignment and other people at UN TV would have picked out interviews for

24     me to go and cover.

25        Q.   I'll going to leave a slight pause because we have to take

Page 8807

 1     account of the translation, interpretation issues.

 2             You would be assigned specific stories by the head of operations

 3     in Zagreb.  Correct?

 4        A.   No.  The managing editor, I mean head of operations, to me,

 5     suggests military or UN; but this was the UN TV managing editor, and,

 6     obviously, he had some contact with the press and information, chief of

 7     press and information of UNPROFOR.  But my stories or my assignments came

 8     from the UN TV managing editor.

 9        Q.   Yes.  I'm sorry if I misspoke.  That was my intention to reflect

10     that it was coming from within the UN TV itself.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the average length of your assignments could vary from days

13     to weeks or --

14        A.   Yeah, one day to maybe a week in the field.

15        Q.   Yeah.  Now, I want to deal firstly with your arrival in Knin, and

16     it's right that in these proceedings the only statement you have given is

17     dated back in October 2001; I think you'll recall?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And, obviously, that was more than six years after the events

20     that we're talking about?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   I would be very interested to know if you have any notes from the

23     time particularly of the 25th and the 26th of August that you could help

24     us with?

25        A.   No.

Page 8808

 1        Q.   Any diary that you kept for that period?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Now, I know you've had the opportunity to look at detail in

 4     your -- about your statement and what you wrote.  Can you help us with

 5     the date, perhaps, on which you travelled down with your team to Knin?

 6        A.   We arrived on the Thursday -- the Thursday or the Friday morning.

 7     So it was the 20 -- it was either the evening of the 24th or the morning

 8     of the 25th.

 9        Q.   And, in fact, in your statement, you refer to the following

10     morning, "my team accompanied Edward Flynn," so that would suggest then

11     perhaps the day before, then, correct?

12        A.   Yes, mm-hm, yes.

13        Q.   Was it your first trip to Knin --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   -- as an UN producer?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   After you left on the 26th, when you travelled back up to Zagreb,

18     did you subsequently visit Knin or not?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Okay.  Within the institution of UN TV, can you help me with

21     this, as to whether or not you ever received any sort of briefing about

22     the situation in Knin post-Operation Storm.

23        A.   Well, UN TV is -- was situated in headquarters UNPROFOR Zagreb,

24     so we had access to a lot of information, press briefings, and our own

25     contacts on the ground.

Page 8809

 1             So there was no formal briefing; but, obviously, I had been

 2     keeping abreast of what was going on in that area.

 3        Q.   So no formal briefing but UN TV?

 4        A.   No.  It was just -- we think that some Serbs have tried to stay

 5     behind, please go and see if can you get a nice positive story about, you

 6     know, the fact that the Croatians are -- have invited and have welcomed

 7     the Serbs as staying behind.

 8        Q.   Now, one of your main contacts in Knin was also UN press officer,

 9     is that right, Mr. Roberts?  Do you know him, Mr. Alun Roberts?

10        A.   I don't recall contact with him.  We would have gone through his

11     office to get down there and arrange permissions, but I can't recall any

12     contact.  I think he may have even been not around at that stage because

13     I know the name very well.  But one of the issues we had down there was

14     that there was no press and info people to really happy us.

15        Q.   Yeah.  It's just that you say in your statement that your main

16     contact was the UN press and information office, and the officer there

17     was Mr. Roberts.  That's why I'm asking you.

18        A.   I can't recall whether what I meant by that was simply that we

19     arranged to go through his office, but the only people I remember dealing

20     with down there when we got there were the -- the humanitarian officer,

21     Flynn, and a sort of battalion commander-type rank of major or colonel,

22     who, again, was helping.  He was the one that was helping us get the

23     interview with General Cermak's office.

24        Q.   What was his name?

25        A.   I don't remember.

Page 8810

 1        Q.   Now, I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Cermak because,

 2     obviously, you have written about him in your statement.

 3             Before you arrived in Knin on the 24th of August, is it right

 4     that you had never met Mr. Cermak before?  That's right?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Before you arrived in Knin, did you know who Mr. Cermak was?

 7        A.   I can't remember whether I knew in Zagreb that the military

 8     governor was General Cermak; but definitely when we got there, the name

 9     kept coming up:  "You got to see Cermak.  You got to see Cermak.  Go and

10     get an interview with him."

11        Q.   When was the first -- was the first time that you met Mr. Flynn

12     when you were done in Knin?

13        A.   Yeah.

14        Q.   Well, we know that you knew about Mr. Cermak being, as you call,

15     the military governor from him?

16        A.   Right.

17        Q.   You said that yourself in your supplementary statement?

18        A.   Yeah, yeah.  But if -- you know, I can't remember whether that --

19     you know, you asked did I know who he was.  You know, maybe someone in

20     Zagreb, maybe my boss, had said the new -- the new guy down there to talk

21     to is General Cermak.  He may have said that to me because you got to

22     remember this was such a swift regime change, as it were.  We had been

23     used to dealing with Serbs in Knin, UN TV.  So we knew all the

24     personalities of the Croatian Serbs down there, but we didn't know any of

25     the new Croatian authorities.

Page 8811

 1        Q.   I understand.  I'm just trying to establish from your

 2     supplemental statement that you gave to the Prosecution on Sunday --

 3        A.   Mm-hm.

 4        Q.   -- we know that it was Mr. Flynn who told you that Mr. Cermak was

 5     the military governor?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7             MS. HIGGINS:  I see my learned friend on his feet.

 8             MR. MARGETTS:  Yes.  It's just that my learned friend is

 9     referring to a supplemental information sheet that we prepared following

10     the proofing.  I just refer to paragraph 4 of that, and maybe my learned

11     friend could refer to the precise reference that is made to the persons

12     that informed him.

13             MS. HIGGINS:  Well, I'm coming on that to that, Your Honour.  If

14     I can deal with it in my way, I'll address the point.

15             MR. MARGETTS:  Well, then I --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You're referring to a supplemental statement the

17     Chamber is not aware of; so, therefore, one way or the other, either you

18     read it or -- but we are not able to follow what the testimony is about

19     if you refer to an unknown document.

20             MS. HIGGINS:  For the assistance of the Bench, I'm going to read

21     the line and give the witness the opportunity to listen to that again.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             MS. HIGGINS:

24        Q.   The line is as follows, Mr. Lyntton:  Edward Flynn and the UN

25     representative informed the witness that General Cermak was the military

Page 8812

 1     governor in charge of the area."

 2             Do you recall that?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yeah, absolutely.

 4        Q.   Can you give me the name of the UN representative while we're on

 5     the subject?

 6        A.   No.  I don't remember who that was.

 7        Q.   Right.  Can you let me know why it is that you hadn't explained

 8     where you got the information from about Mr. Cermak being, as you say, a

 9     military governor, why that wasn't put in your 2001 statement?

10        A.   Because that -- that original statement was what I could remember

11     at the time.  I don't think anyone specifically asked me that question

12     you just asked me.  So the -- what I was trying to do during the

13     statement was just remember who I had come into contact with.

14        Q.   I'm going to come on to look in a little bit more detail in a

15     moment about your statement, but if we could just stay with the issue of

16     military governor for the moment.

17             In your role as a TV producer, director for UN TV --

18        A.   Yeah.

19        Q.    -- did you ever yourself conduct research into Mr. Cermak's

20     position, function, responsibilities; or was there simply not an occasion

21     to do so --

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   -- within the limitation of your time?

24        A.   No, I did not.

25        Q.   Did you ever question or have the opportunity to question, again,

Page 8813

 1     given the limited time you were there, the information that you had been

 2     given by Mr. Flynn and the UN representative that Mr. Cermak was the

 3     so-called military governor?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Now, it is not intended as any criticism because, again, I

 6     understand how long you were in Knin, would it be fair to say that you

 7     didn't have any particular detailed knowledge of the working of the

 8     Croatian military structure down in that particular area at that time?

 9        A.   It would be.

10        Q.   Would that be fair?

11        A.   It would be fair, yeah.

12        Q.   And we know from what you have told us that it would be accurate

13     to say you only met Mr. Cermak once during the interview you had with

14     him?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Correct.  And, again, just for the record, duration of

17     approximately 30 minutes, something like that?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   It's also correct, isn't it - and we've got the transcript that

20     you have had a chance to look through; I'm trying to be fair to you,

21     Mr. Lyntton -- that he, in fact, himself never described himself as the

22     military governor to you during the time you met him?  Correct?

23        A.   That -- that may not be correct in the sense that there was some

24     chitchat beforehand, and he may have said, you know, "My name is General

25     Cermak and I'm the commander here."  Like one word, if you were

Page 8814

 1     introducing yourself in that kind of position.

 2        Q.   We're in a court of law here, and I think you would agree with me

 3     that you are not able to confirm that he did, in fact, say he was

 4     military governor?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   You can't tell me that he said that --

 7        A.   Absolutely.

 8        Q.   -- can you?  Okay.

 9             Now, again, prefacing this with the limited knowledge that I know

10     you had, no criticism intended, did you ever come to know, either at the

11     time or subsequently through your contacts with the Prosecution, that

12     there was, in fact, no such position as military governor in the Croatian

13     army?  Did you come to know that?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did you know anything about the structure or the functioning of

16     the Ministry of Interior in Croatia in that region at that time?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Just testing again the remit of what you can speak about,

19     Mr. Lyntton.

20        A.   Mm-hm.

21        Q.   Did you know, for example, the name of the local police commander

22     in Knin at the police station?

23        A.   I was not aware there was even a police commander.  I mean, this

24     was again -- this was two or three days after.  It seemed to me that, you

25     know, personalities were -- you know, they weren't even -- the buildings,

Page 8815

 1     you know, we didn't even know which buildings people were in, let alone

 2     that, "Oh, yes, there's a new police commander."  So, no, I didn't know

 3     that there would have been one there on those dates.

 4        Q.   And you were there for only two days?

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   Just to complete the circle, I presume it is also correct that

 7     you are not able to tell me in any detail about the hierarchy or workings

 8     of the military police in that area at that time?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   So just to recap, the sole source, having considered where we've

11     got to at this point, for your assertion or conclusion that Mr. Cermak

12     was the military governor was Mr. Flynn, in fact, and the unnamed UN

13     representative.  Would that be fair?

14        A.   Well, not exactly.  Because if I write someone's name on the

15     screen, I need to get their title as well.  So, although I cannot

16     remember if I specifically asked this, when we arrived at the building

17     where Cermak was in the centre of Knin, and when we took his details as

18     one would, I am almost certain I would have said, "Well, what shall we

19     call you?"

20             So someone, I'm not suggesting it was General Cermak himself, but

21     somehow I must have got a title because I knew I would need that for my

22     piece.

23        Q.   Well, to be fair to you, Mr. Lyntton, you've told us how you got

24     that title and we know you were in contact with Mr. Flynn.

25        A.   Yeah.

Page 8816

 1        Q.   That's fair isn't it?

 2        A.   Yeah.  The first time that title was mentioned, yes.

 3        Q.   And for your purposes, that would be a title that you would

 4     presumably write down and use.

 5        A.   Yes.  But I also think I would have checked during the interview

 6     what the gentleman -- what the General wants to be called.

 7        Q.   Well, you say you would have, but let's get this straight.

 8     You're not telling me, are you, that Mr. Cermak said to you, "Hello, I'm

 9     the military governor."  You can't say that in this court, can you?

10        A.   I -- I can't remember --

11        Q.   No --

12        A.   -- but it may have been possible.

13        Q.   I'm suggesting to that you it wasn't possible, Mr. Lyntton, but

14     let's move on.  I don't think you can really contradict me, can you?  The

15     most you can say is "may"?

16        A.   May, absolutely, but not definitely not.

17        Q.   Well, don't you think that if Mr. Cermak had have said that, that

18     might have been something important that you would have, A, brought to

19     the attention of the Prosecution in your Sunday or weekend briefing; or,

20     B, put into some sort of statement format back in 2001?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Why not?

23        A.   Because until you brought it up, the fact that we -- and, again,

24     this is sometimes a linguistic issue, the fact that we brought up today

25     "military governor."  I mean, for me, you know, commander, head of -- you

Page 8817

 1     know, it could have been anything.  But that was simply a term that would

 2     have been -- that I used; and as I say, I'm sure that I would have

 3     checked what General Cermak wanted to be called.

 4        Q.   You didn't make any notes, did you, at the time you gave -- you

 5     made the interview with Mr. Cermak?

 6        A.   I would have made some notes, yeah.

 7        Q.   Where are they?

 8        A.   I haven't got them now.  It's --

 9        Q.   So you can't help me with what was actually said?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Right.  Now, did you ever come to know in your research, again as

12     a producer, either at the time or subsequently, that Mr. Cermak was, in

13     fact, a civilian businessman who was appointed, not as a military

14     governor, but as a garrison commander of Knin appointed by

15     President Tudjman on the 5th?

16             Did you come to know that?

17        A.   The only thing I came to know was that an independent newspaper

18     journalist had told me that -- that he had a string of brothels in

19     Zagreb, and I did not know that he was a businessman.

20        Q.   Right.  Let take this back a little, shall we?

21             Now, you mentioned brothels for the first time in your statement

22     that you made in 2001.  And in that statement - I'm sure you have it

23     before you - paragraph 27 on page 5, at the bottom, you say that you

24     recognised Cermak's main body-guard who was the owner of a brothel in

25     Zagreb --

Page 8818

 1             MR. MARGETTS:  I don't believe that the witness does have the

 2     statement before him.  It is P870.

 3             MS. HIGGINS:  Well, perhaps my learned friend can provide him

 4     with a copy, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a copy, Mr. Margetts?

 6             MR. MARGETTS:  I don't have an unmarked copy in my possession.

 7     I'll just check whether my learned friend does.

 8             Yes, if I could provide it.

 9             MS. HIGGINS:

10        Q.   If could you have a look in the statement at paragraph 27,

11     please, you see there the reference to:  "I recognised Cermak's main

12     body-guard who was the owner of a brothel in Zagreb."

13        A.   Yeah.

14        Q.   Now, this brothel in Zagreb, was that near the UN base in Vela

15     Kugarica [phoen]?

16        A.   Yeah, I think it was.

17        Q.   Did you go there?

18        A.   I did.

19        Q.   Yeah.  Now, this brothel, was --

20        A.   The only time I went there was with the independent newspaper

21     journalist as an interpreter.

22        Q.   What were you doing there?

23        A.   She asked me -- she went to UN TV and said, "Is there anyone who

24     would come with me?  I'm doing a story on brothels in Zagreb.  Could I

25     borrow somebody who is an interpreter?"  And my boss asked me if I could

Page 8819

 1     go with her because I was -- you know, we were both from London and could

 2     I help her out.  So I just want to it make I want clear, I wasn't going

 3     there to use the ladies there.  I was just going to help because she was

 4     female, the journalist.  I was just going as a bit of, you know, sort of

 5     moral support and to be her interpreter.

 6        Q.   That is very gallant of you, Mr. Lyntton, if I may say.

 7        A.   Thank you.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Would it be, perhaps, preferable to suggest that this brothel was

 9     more of a disco bar?

10        A.   Well, I mean, if you looked at it, that's what you would say, but

11     I knew from other people that that's what it was used for.

12        Q.   You're not honestly coming to this courtroom and suggesting for

13     the first time that you know that Mr. Cermak had a string of brothels in

14     Zagreb.  Is that what you're honestly coming here to say, Mr. Lyntton,

15     please?

16        A.   No.  You asked me did I subsequently find out, so all I said was

17     that the journalist told me that that's what he had.

18             So I don't know that, but that's what I was -- that's what

19     someone told me, because you said did you find out subsequently and

20     that's why I said that.

21        Q.   Name of the journalist, please.

22        A.   I can't remember.

23        Q.   You, as a professional producer and director, your sources are

24     important, Mr. Lyntton, aren't they?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8820

 1        Q.   You're willing to come here and report rumour and gossip about

 2     somebody's --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins, you asked what Mr. Lyntton found out

 4     later.  There was no limitation to his journalistic work, where, of

 5     course, would you require from someone to check all his sources.  You

 6     came with a very general question, the witness answered that, and then to

 7     treat him in this way is not what I expect to you do.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, my question was whether he was, in

10     fact, a civilian businessman, and I appreciate Your Honours'

11     observations.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What he found out about that.  I'm not saying what

13     did you observe the yourself, what he found out, in a very general way;

14     then he answered that question; and if you say, "Have you further

15     investigated that," fine, put all questions.  But the tone you used in

16     relation to this was unfair, taking into account how the issue came up.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, I will amend my tone.

19        Q.   Mr. Lyntton, have you ever been shown the document appointing

20     Mr. Cermak to the position of garrison commander by the Prosecution

21     during your time here?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Can you assist us with how many staff the garrison had or

24     anything like that?

25        A.   Very few.  I remember walking into the building, and I just

Page 8821

 1     remember thinking, "Where is everybody?"

 2        Q.   Did you know that the position of garrison commander was a

 3     non-operational position?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   From your contact with Mr. Edward Flynn, did you know the role

 6     that Mr. Cermak had been assigned concerning the normalization of life in

 7     the area, assisting the UN, and assisting in relation to the displaced

 8     persons?  Did you come to know about that?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Now, just while we're dealing with descriptions of Mr. Cermak,

11     another description that you used was the following:  In your statement,

12     and you can take it from me or check as you need to, you say:  "I think

13     Cermak was a policeman who had been bumped up into the army."

14             Can you help with who told that you?

15        A.   No, I can't.  I don't remember.

16        Q.   Did you ever come to know that that information was, in fact, as

17     inaccurate as the information you had about him being a military

18     governor?

19        A.   I did not.

20        Q.   Is it right to say that in your capacity, and given again the

21     limited contact you had with people down there and the two days you

22     spent, that you never, in fact, came to know what he was in charge of or

23     what his real title was?

24        A.   Yeah, that's correct.

25        Q.   Would that be fair?

Page 8822

 1        A.   That would be fair.

 2        Q.   I'm trying to be a little bit fairer and nicer.

 3             Now, let's move on, if I can, to the 25th, please, of August.

 4     You have already told me that you don't have any notes from that time,

 5     but I know you have a recollection and we've got your 2001 statement.

 6             On the 25th, your UN TV team, which I think consisted of three

 7     people?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You accompanied Mr. Flynn and his interpreter to a meeting in

10     Plavno valley.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Mm-hm, correct.

12        Q.   Now, you may not remember all the names, but I think you might

13     remember that there were other people present as well.  You might -- do

14     you remember a Mr. Roberts?  I have asked you about him already.

15        A.   I don't remember him, no.

16        Q.   And an UN CIVPOL member, a man called Mr. Romasev?

17        A.   I do remember a UN CIVPOL guy being there, yeah.

18        Q.   And a lady, Maria Teresa Mauro, does that ring a bell?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   But we have seen from your footage that there were, in fact, a

21     convoy of you who went up to the village in Grubori.  We have seen the

22     three cars.  Is that right?

23        A.   As far as I remember, there were just two cars.  It was us and

24     the UN humanitarian officer.

25        Q.   That can be checked --

Page 8823

 1        A.   There may have been someone else with us, behind coming up,

 2     because we were all heading that way, but I don't remember.  All I

 3     remember is it being us and the UN humanitarian officer.

 4        Q.   Now, as we have heard, during that meeting at some point, smoke

 5     is brought to your attention and you move up in convoy to Grubori

 6     village.  Correct?

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   What I'd like to just ask you briefly is if you can assist me

 9     with the timing of your arrival in Grubori?

10        A.   Mm-hm.

11        Q.   To remind you, you said in your 2001 statement that it was about

12     11.00, 11.30?

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   Now, the Court here has received evidence of different timings

15     between 1330 and 1430?

16        A.   Mm-hm.

17        Q.   And I wonder if could you assist us at all with that?

18        A.   Yeah.  I mean, what happened that morning, we would have left at

19     about 8.00.  We got the first interview with the couple on the road.

20     Then we got to the -- the first village where the meeting was supposed to

21     take place, and it was supposed to take place at about 10.00.

22             So, by the time we waited around, no appearance of the Croatian

23     chief of police, by the time we then saw the smoke -- did you ask when we

24     first saw the smoke or when we got to Grubori village?

25        Q.   No.  When you got to Grubori village, where it could have been

Page 8824

 1     later than 11.30 --

 2        A.   It could have been.  It could have been.

 3        Q.   Now, after your visit to Grubori village, you returned to Knin

 4     without Flynn sometime in the afternoon.  Would that be fair?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   That's what you said in your statement, that you returned without

 7     him and he was still up in Grubori.

 8        A.   Yeah.  In fact, when I looked at the -- over there last weekend,

 9     I realized that we had, in fact, gone back to the village the next

10     morning.

11        Q.   Yes.  I'll come on to that.

12        A.   Okay.

13        Q.   I'll come on that.  You are absolutely right from your

14     correction.  What I'm asking you about is on the 25th, when you go up

15     there --

16        A.   Mm-hm.

17        Q.   -- in your 2001 statement --

18        A.   Mm-hm.

19        Q.   -- you refer to you leaving to go back to Knin --

20        A.   Yeah.

21        Q.   -- and Flynn remaining?

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   He then comes back later?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Does that assist?

Page 8825

 1        A.   Yeah, yeah.

 2        Q.   Yeah.  Now --

 3        A.   But we didn't go up a second time that day.

 4        Q.   No.  Exactly.  I'm not disputing that.

 5        A.   Okay.

 6        Q.   Did you come to know that Mr. Flynn with others went to report to

 7     the office of Mr. Cermak, to a man called Dondo, once he had returned

 8     back in the afternoon of the 25th?  Did you come to know that at some

 9     point?

10        A.   I don't think I knew that.

11        Q.   Okay.  But by the time you left Grubori on the 25th --

12        A.   Mm-hm.

13        Q.   -- you had not seen the two bodies at that point, correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   We also know, and you may correct me if I'm wrong, or had come to

16     know that Mr. Flynn returned to Grubori a second time that day.  Correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   He then returned to Knin later that evening?

19        A.   Mm-hm.

20        Q.   And is it right that he then told you later that evening about

21     the two bodies?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   Now, you can't help me, can you, with what Mr. Flynn reported to

24     a man called Mr. Dondo at the office of Mr. Cermak, that afternoon after

25     his first visit?

Page 8826

 1        A.   I cannot.

 2        Q.   I assume you cannot help me.

 3        A.   I cannot.

 4        Q.   And you weren't present when that report was made to Mr. Cermak's

 5     office.  Correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, I see the time, and I don't know Your

 8     Honours's --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we had a late start, perhaps I first inquire

10     with you, how much time do you still need approximately so that I can

11     make better planning for the morning?

12             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, I estimate 30 minutes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Another 30 minutes, yes.

14             And other Defence counsel?

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I have 30 to 45 minutes myself.

16     Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Kehoe.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we have no questions at this time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

20             Then I suggest, Ms. Higgins, that you finish in the next 30

21     minutes, and that after the break, Mr. Kuzmanovic, that you will

22     cross-examine the witness, so that we might not need a second break,

23     because I understand, Mr. Margetts, that your next witness is not

24     available today.

25             MR. MARGETTS:  Yes, that's right, Your Honour.

Page 8827

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So, most likely, we will then finish in the second

 2     part of the hearing this morning.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MS. HIGGINS:  I'm grateful, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   I'm going to come on to deal with the interview that you had with

 6     Mr. Cermak.

 7        A.   Mm-hm.

 8        Q.   Just a few preliminary questions I want to deal with first with

 9     you.

10             You have provided a proofing -- what we call a proofing note.

11     It's a note that contains additional information and corrections that you

12     made?

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   And that's pursuant to your meetings just the previous weekend

15     with the Prosecution --

16        A.   Mm-hm, yeah.

17        Q.   -- is that right?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Now, we also heard during your examination-in-chief that you made

20     some corrections concerning the interview.  The main corrections, just

21     want to see if you'll agree with me, was firstly the date of the

22     interview.  You corrected it from being on the 25th, which is what you

23     had originally said, to the 26th.

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Correct.  You corrected the time of the UN interview, which you

Page 8828

 1     had said was at 4.00 on the 25th, and you now put at 11.30ish on the

 2     26th?

 3        A.   Correct, correct.

 4        Q.   And you also corrected the language used during the interview.

 5     You now accept that there was a Croatian interpreter present to interpret

 6     for the purposes of Mr. Cermak understanding.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Correct, mm-hm.

 8        Q.   Now, I don't have any dispute with your corrections as they stand

 9     at all.

10        A.   Mm-hm.

11        Q.   But what I don't understand and what I'd like you to try and help

12     me with is how you came to make such effectively quite fundamental

13     mistakes about this aspect of your testimony, back in 2001.  Can you help

14     me with that?

15        A.   Yeah.  I -- it was a long time after, I was in the middle of my

16     life after Bosnia, and I gave the statement I did on 2001.  And when I

17     looked at the footage again and the interview, I remember asking -- I saw

18     that I had asked a specific question to General Cermak, and I said

19     something like, "Do you recall or do you know anything about old men or

20     old people being taken out in their pyjamas and being shot?"  And once I

21     had seen that again, I realized that I must have gone for the interview

22     after we had been back that second time.

23             So that's how I know that it was afterwards and not before.  And

24     as for why I didn't get that originally, it was just hard to remember the

25     events exactly because there was so much going on.

Page 8829

 1        Q.   When was it that you came to review that footage and make that

 2     correction?

 3        A.   On Sunday.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Were you helped with the timing of the interview itself by

 5     the Prosecution?

 6        A.   No.  Well, I mean, I worked it out if we went that morning to

 7     Grubori for the second time, the only thing we did -- you know, we sort

 8     of came straight back from Grubori to do the interview, which is why I

 9     said it was probably about is 11.30 because we were up there for an hour

10     or two.

11        Q.   Now, in terms of going to Mr. Cermak's office and having the

12     interview with him, were you told by Mr. Flynn that as far as the UN were

13     concerned, Mr. Cermak's door was always open to assist with anything that

14     the UN needed assistance with?

15        A.   I don't remember him saying that specifically.

16        Q.   But I think it's right, and again you can review your 2001

17     statement, that during the interview, you concluded yourself that, to use

18     your words, Mr. Cermak wanted to please and cooperate?

19        A.   Absolutely.

20        Q.   Correct?

21        A.   Absolutely.

22        Q.   And he engaged in what you refer to as small pleasantries before

23     and after the interview with?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25        Q.   Now, concerning your impression about that interview --

Page 8830

 1        A.   Mm-hm.

 2        Q.   -- in your 2001 statement, I'm going to read the passage to you.

 3        A.   Mm-hm.

 4        Q.   You say the following:  "Cermak presented himself as the

 5     commander of the area.  It was clear from talking to him that I was

 6     talking to the man that was in charge of security for the area.  He was

 7     wearing a green army shirt at the time of the interview."

 8             MS. HIGGINS:  And that's at page 5, paragraph 3 of that page.

 9        Q.   Let's look a little more closely, if we may, at the conclusion

10     that you drew?

11             MR. MARGETTS:  Your Honour, it would be helpful, I think, if the

12     witness read the full paragraph 28, because a portion of it, a small

13     portion but a portion nonetheless, was omitted from the quotation.

14             So I would be please if my learned friend could invite him to

15     read paragraph 28.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Usually, the party questioning the witness chooses

17     itself what portion to read, unless that gives a distorted picture of

18     what was quoted.

19             MR. MARGETTS:  That would be our submission, Your Honour, to put

20     it expressly.

21             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, it is not my intention.  I will read

22     the whole piece.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MS. HIGGINS:

25        Q.   Mr. Lyntton, just you can have a recap of what was said:  "There

Page 8831

 1     were small pleasantries before and after the interview.  Cermak presented

 2     himself as a the commander of the area, and that is why he would give us

 3     an interview.  It was clear from talking to him that I was talking to the

 4     man that was in charge of security for the area.  He was wearing a green

 5     army shirt at the time of the interview."

 6             Do you recall that?

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   Now, your assessment, again, cold light of day now -- we know you

 9     were there for two days, we know what your specific and different

10     function was as a producer.  Cold light of day, your assessment of

11     Mr. Cermak, as the commander of the area, was based on the following, I

12     would suggest, and I would ask to you consider this.

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   One, he had a rank; you called him General.

15        A.   Mm-hm.

16        Q.   Two, he wore a military uniform.  That had an impact, correct?

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18        Q.   Three, you had been told he was a military governor.

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   Would that be a fair assessment?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Right.  Now, you also say that it was your impression, to use

23     your words, that "this guy was in charge and clearly knew what was going

24     on in his area."  I'd like to us examine that a little more closely, and

25     now turn to the actual interview itself.

Page 8832

 1             MS. HIGGINS:  If that could be pulled up on to the screen.  Your

 2     Honour, I think that is P504.

 3        Q.   Do you have a copy of the interview transcript yourself in front

 4     of you so that can you flick to it, Mr. Lyntton?

 5        A.   Is this it?  Is that it?

 6             MR. MARGETTS:  No.  The witness has a copy of his statement.

 7     We'll attempt to furnish him with a hard copy of the interview.

 8             MS. HIGGINS:  I'm grateful.

 9        Q.   Now, we have the first page, which will be sufficient for my

10     purposes until you're provided with a copy.

11             You can see there that the interview begins with two pieces or

12     two tranches of information that Mr. Cermak gives to you before you

13     launch into the substance of your interview.  Would you agree with that?

14        A.   Yeah.

15        Q.   He just gave you, just to recap - we looked at the detail - he

16     gave you some information about mopping-up operations towards the axes of

17     villages of Plavno and Grubori and what had been found there.  Correct?

18        A.   He did.

19        Q.   And he gave you information that one or two houses were burnt,

20     Serb terrorists arrested, and a body found.  Do you see that?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   Now, during the course of that interview, I think you would agree

23     with me that he didn't tell you at any point where he got that

24     information from.  Correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 8833

 1        Q.   So you didn't know where that information came from?

 2        A.   Mm-hm.

 3        Q.   Correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And you couldn't know or didn't know at that time that he was

 6     passing on information to you that he had received himself.  Fair?

 7        A.   Fair.

 8        Q.   Now, let's move on to you telling him about Grubori itself.

 9             On that first page --

10             MS. HIGGINS:  If we can just scan down, please, to the bottom of

11     that page.

12        Q.   You tell him about the 20 houses alight and the two dead old men.

13     Correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Now, I want to put this, Mr. Lyntton, into a context, and I'd ask

16     you to try and look at this document with fresh eyes?

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18        Q.   I know it's difficult because it is your document, it's your

19     interview.

20             But just coming again to it in the cold light of day, if we can

21     try?

22        A.   Mm-hm.

23        Q.   It was said, just to put it in context for you, by Mr. Margetts,

24     who summarized the evidence that you were to give to this Court, that

25     Mr. Cermak denied old people were forced out of their homes and denied

Page 8834

 1     any one was shot at close quarters in Grubori during the course of this

 2     interview?

 3        A.   Mm-hm.

 4        Q.   Do you recall that summary of your testimony?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Going back to the interview, once you had told Mr. Cermak about

 7     the 20 houses and the two dead old men, let's just consider the two of

 8     us, if we may, the context of Mr. Cermak's responses to the information

 9     you kindly provide to him from what you saw, all right?

10        A.   Mm-hm, yeah.

11        Q.   First page of this interview, five lines up, if you follow with

12     me, at the end of that line, he says:  "I don't know where he got this

13     information from."

14             He's referring to you there?

15        A.   Mm-hm.

16        Q.   Do you see that?

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18             MS. HIGGINS:  Page two of this interview, please, Mr. Registrar.

19        Q.   Paragraph 2, from the top, you provide him in paragraph 1 with

20     more background, more information?

21        A.   Mm-hm, mm-hm.

22        Q.   He says to you the words in paragraph 2:  "I don't know where

23     this gentleman had this information from about two civilians killed."

24             Do you see that there?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8835

 1        Q.   Page 2, fourth paragraph, if you can follow with me, please.

 2        A.   Mm-hm.

 3        Q.   Again, you'll see the words there twice:  "I don't know," in the

 4     first line, and in the third line:  "I don't know."

 5             Do you see that, Mr. Lyntton?

 6        A.   Yeah, yeah.

 7        Q.   Again, in paragraph 4:  "I don't know if this morning there was

 8     anybody with the people up there."

 9             Do you see?

10        A.   Yeah.

11        Q.   Page 2, again, para 4:  "I really don't have any information

12     about these two bodies."

13             Do you see that line?

14        A.   Mm-hm.

15        Q.   The bottom line of this page, he actually asks you for

16     clarification:  "What village?  What police forces are you talking

17     about?"

18             Do you see that?

19        A.   Yeah.

20        Q.   And you clarify again for him.

21             MS. HIGGINS:  Page 3, Mr. Registrar, please.

22        Q.   Paragraph 3:  "Look, I don't know."

23             You see that reference there?

24        A.   Mm-hm.

25        Q.   Now, what I'd like you to consider, looking at this interview in

Page 8836

 1     the round, and also looking at the fact of the placing of the information

 2     he gives you and once you tell him, what he says to you.  All right?

 3        A.   Mm-hm.

 4        Q.   Would it perhaps be more accuracy to say or fairer to say that

 5     rather than denying what had happened, when you told him the detail that

 6     you knew and you'd seen, didn't it become, in fact, clear, or perhaps

 7     it's now clear to you, that during the course of that interview and given

 8     his responses, he didn't actually know at that time the extent of what

 9     had happened up there?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Would that be fair?

12        A.   Not exactly.

13        Q.   Now, at face value, you see, however, what he said to you about

14     his lack of knowledge.  Would you agree with that?

15        A.   Yeah.

16        Q.   Yeah.  Another claim that you make, which I'd like to deal with

17     briefly, is you say in your statement that you found it suspicious that

18     he had appeared to be in command of the previous incidents and situation,

19     but was equally willing suddenly to say that he was prepared to

20     investigate a rumour brought to him by an UN TV producer.

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   You recall that?

23        A.   Can you just say that again?

24        Q.   Yeah, of course.

25             He appeared to be in command of the previous incidents and

Page 8837

 1     situation, but was equally willing suddenly to say that he was prepared

 2     to investigate a rumour brought to him by an UN TV producer.

 3        A.   So did you ask if I was surprised about that?

 4        Q.   No.  Just coming on to deal with that --

 5        A.   Mm-hm, mm-hm.

 6        Q.   -- so you understand where I'm moving to.

 7        A.   Mm-hm.

 8        Q.   Again, looking at this now, over 13 years later, given the

 9     context of who you were, what you were doing down there, and the limited

10     duration of time you spent down there, is it, in fact, the case that you

11     were never actually in the position to know the remit of his authority in

12     that area?  Is that fair?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   That's not fair?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Why is that not fair?

17        A.   Well, I just remember being in that room and getting -- you get a

18     feeling when someone is not giving you the whole story, and the reason

19     the interview lasted so long is because I just felt that I wasn't getting

20     the true picture and I felt that there was something that he wasn't being

21     open about.

22        Q.   Well, that --

23        A.   That was just a feel.

24        Q.   That was just your feeling, nothing more?

25        A.   Yeah.

Page 8838

 1        Q.   Nothing to substantiate that.

 2        A.   Just my feeling at the time, trying to get -- just react off body

 3     language and facial expression.  And, remember, I do speak Croatian, so I

 4     was getting the full force of what he was saying and the sentences, et

 5     cetera.

 6        Q.   I appreciate that.  My question to you was about your knowledge

 7     of his authority, and I think you had already agreed with me that you're

 8     not actually in a position to deal with that topic.

 9        A.   Absolutely.

10        Q.   You agree with that?

11        A.   Correct, yeah.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just to conclude and to put this into context,

13     during the course of the interview, you asked him if he would go to the

14     village to see for himself.  Remember?

15        A.   Absolutely.

16        Q.   He told you that he would --

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18        Q.   -- if he had sometime after the arrival of the president --

19        A.   Mm-hm.

20        Q.   -- which was to take place that day on the 26th.

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   Did you go back to his office to see him, to see if he had time

23     that day?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Why not?

Page 8839

 1        A.   I -- I can't remember whether he said -- did he say that he -- I

 2     seem to remember him suggesting that the president was coming, which

 3     meant that he couldn't go back.  Maybe I've not remembered correctly.

 4        Q.   No, I don't think you have.  I'm going to try and assist you with

 5     the words that were used.

 6             You say to him:  "Would the General be prepared to go with us to

 7     the village to see this for himself?"

 8        A.   Mm-hm.

 9        Q.   His answer is:  "Here, this afternoon, if I have sometime after

10     the president's arrival, definitely."

11             And my question to you was simply, did you go back to his offices

12     to check?

13        A.   No, we did not.

14        Q.   And, in fact, you never went back to Grubori, I think it's right

15     in saying that, isn't it?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And you left for Knin that night?

18        A.   Mm-hm, for Split.

19        Q.   Yeah.  So you left Knin, and you ended up going to Zagreb, in

20     fact, that night?

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   Now, you asked him twice during the interview if he would

23     personally undertake an investigation.  Did you ever know or come to know

24     subsequently that, in fact, Mr. Cermak did not have the right or ability

25     to conduct an investigation?  Did you know that?

Page 8840

 1        A.   No, I did not.

 2        Q.   Mr. Lyntton, thank you very much.  I have no further questions

 3     for you.

 4        A.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Higgins.

 6             Before we have a break, Mr. Lyntton, one question:  Did you ever

 7     come to know about other business activities of Mr. Cermak than the one

 8     you mentioned?

 9             THE WITNESS:  No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever intend to make another production on

11     the person or activities of Mr. Cermak?

12             THE WITNESS:  No.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Ms. Higgins, where I earlier said that you did not limit your

15     question, I was wrong, because you said "during your research ..."

16             At the same time, your question about knowledge of Mr. Lyntton

17     was rather broad.  You said:  "Did you ever come to know ..."

18             The reason why I asked him whether he ever came to know anything

19     else about the commercial or business activities of Mr. Cermak was, for

20     myself, to form a further opinion on whether this was a selective

21     approach or whether it was an answer you would expect from a witness who

22     is asked this question.

23             About the tone, I'm not going to change that.  But about the way

24     you introduced that matter, there was some limitation that I made a

25     mistake there.

Page 8841

 1             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, I hope you accept my apology about the

 2     tone.  I did try to tone it down.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I did not seek at this moment an apology for

 4     it.  I just want to let you know that my observation was not in every

 5     respect correct.

 6             MS. HIGGINS:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes

 8     to 12.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 11.08 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.41 a.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready --

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, I am.  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to cross-examine Mr. Lyntton?

14             Mr. Kuzmanovic is Defence counsel for Mr. Markac.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

18        Q.   Good morning, sir.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   You're biographical information in your statement, which is P870,

21     talks about you spending six months in Sarajevo and six months in Pale.

22     What did you do in your six months in Sarajevo?

23        A.   I was the UNHCR liaison officer.

24        Q.   And as that liaison officer, what was your function?

25        A.   It was to ensure that the -- the Bosnian government people in

Page 8842

 1     Sarajevo got their fuel convoys and their humanitarian aid food through

 2     the check-points, and then I would go around to the warehouses and check

 3     that the food -- the humanitarian aid was being distributed properly.

 4        Q.   Were you under fire at that point at any time?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Was it a daily occurrence that you would be under fire?

 7        A.   No, not directly.  But there were -- at the time that I arrived,

 8     there were on average 1.000 to 1.300 shells landing in Sarajevo and --

 9        Q.   Per day?

10        A.   Yeah, per day.

11        Q.   And then you had spent six months in Pale?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And what did you do there?

14        A.   I was the UNMO, Pale; United Nations Military Observer, Pale.

15        Q.   And what was your function as the United Nations Military

16     Observer in Pale?

17        A.   It was to facilitate communications between the Bosnian Serb

18     headquarters and the General Rose's UNPROFOR headquarters down in

19     Sarajevo through satellite telephone.

20        Q.   So you worked for --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, it is even difficult to get

22     something in between of the answer and your question.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I apologise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  This has consequences for the transcript.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  As usual, I will try to calm down after your

Page 8843

 1     admonition, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, for the record, we could ask Mr. Lyntton to

 3     repeat what his function was during his six months in Pale.

 4             You were an --

 5             THE WITNESS:  UNMO, United Nations Military Observer.  There

 6     were -- there was an office.  It was the only office, bar one, on Bosnian

 7     Serb territory where there were UNMOs, and we facilitated the

 8     communications between the Bosnian Serb military and civilian

 9     headquarters and the UNPROFOR headquarters down in Sarajevo.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

11        Q.   And said that you worked for General Rose?

12        A.   Yeah.  I was -- well, not directly for him but -- because the

13     UNMOs were commanded by a chief UNMO in Zagreb.  But, yes, I was

14     communicating with HQ UNPROFOR which was in Sarajevo, which was commanded

15     by General Rose.

16        Q.   And then with whom did you communicate on the Bosnian Serb

17     military and civilian side?

18        A.   Mainly by fax and telephone, with liaison officers, because there

19     was a satellite telephone in our office in Pale.  So all the

20     communications would come via local telephone line, and then we would

21     satellite fax them down to Sarajevo.  That was kind of the main job.

22        Q.   Now, you said you had learned Croatian.  Were you speaking

23     Serbian or -- when you were in Pale with --

24        A.   I was speaking Serbo-Croatian or Bosnian.

25        Q.   Where did you learn that?

Page 8844

 1        A.   I learned that -- the British Army sent me on a three-month

 2     course, it was called a colloquial speaker course, and that was prior it

 3     my posting as an UNHCR LO in Sarajevo, and because I also spoke Russian.

 4     I mean, that's why I was sent on the course because I spoke Russian, and

 5     they wanted Russian speakers to learn Bosnian.

 6        Q.   When you were in Croatian, did you need an interpreter?

 7        A.   Generally not.

 8        Q.   When you went on the trip to Knin, did you need an interpreter?

 9        A.   No.  Except for obviously the interview with General Cermak, and

10     because -- and I decided to that because I just felt it was an important

11     interview, and my understanding would have been about 70 , 80 per cent.

12     So, obviously, for that kind of interview, I just had the UN local

13     interpreter come with me.

14        Q.   Now, when you were on your way for the first time up to the

15     Plavno valley on the 25th, who was with you in your vehicle?

16        A.   My British cameraman who also worked for UN TV, and my assistant

17     producer who was from the Czech Republic.

18        Q.   Is that who Sasa was?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did either your cameraman or the Sasa speak Croatian?

21        A.   The Czech guy, Sasa, may have spoken a few words.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  My apologies to the

24     interpreters.

25        Q.   Paragraph 7 of your statement, sir, do you have the statement in

Page 8845

 1     front of you?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   The second sentence of that statement -- or the third sentence

 4     says:  "The information we received was that a local chief of police was

 5     going around to the villages to assure local Serbs that it was safe to

 6     stay.  We wanted to record one of these meetings."

 7             From whom did you get the information that you refer to in

 8     paragraph 7 that a local police chief was going around to the villages?

 9        A.   Flynn.

10        Q.   And did you ever get the name of who that local police chief was?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did you ever attempt to contact that person?

13        A.   In -- in the sense that when I got the interview with General

14     Cermak, I assumed that perhaps the police chief would be --

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Hang on, sir.

16             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It's my fault.

18             Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Go ahead, sir.

20        A.   In the sense that I assumed that maybe I would find the police

21     chief with -- in the same building as General Cermak or some -- someone

22     that -- someone that could have given me an interview who was, in fact,

23     the person going round to those villages.  In other words, if I couldn't

24     speak to a person on the ground, I hoped that I would be able to speak to

25     someone when I got back to Knin.

Page 8846

 1        Q.   And to this day, you haven't determined who that local police

 2     chief was?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Or from what city or municipality that police chief was?

 5        A.   Well, no, because they'd all just arrived.  The Croatians had

 6     just arrived, so, no.

 7        Q.   And the information that you got regarding the local chief of

 8     police was from Mr. Flynn?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you talk about stopping at

11     a farm house along the way to the Plavno area.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, you talk about the old couple that you interviewed, and one

14     of the things that you say in your statement at the bottom of page 2,

15     going into page 3, you say:  "The couple told us -- said it was Ustasha

16     that were responsible for this treatment.  I can't say if it was Croat

17     police or military.  The couple said the persons responsible were Croats

18     in uniform with the Croatian emblem on their uniform.  The incident

19     relates to us had happened two or three days earlier.  The interview of

20     the elderly couple was videotaped."

21             Now, I would like you to refer --

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could pull up just the transcript of P871,

23     which is the transcript from the interview.

24        Q.   And I have a copy for you, sir.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And if I could ask the assistance of the usher,

Page 8847

 1     and if the Court would like, I have copies forever the Court, too, if the

 2     Court would like a hard copy.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Wasn't this annexed to the motion --

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I think it was annexed to the 92 ter, Your

 5     Honours.  I just wanted to make sure that if you wanted an extra copy, I

 6     had it available.

 7        Q.   Mr. Lyntton, it is -- it is six pages long, and you can feel

 8     free -- I'm going to ask you some questions about this transcript, so I'd

 9     like to you take a look at and page through it and read it before I ask

10     you some questions about it, in fairness to you.  And just let me know

11     when you're done.

12        A.   I'm familiar with this --

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   -- from Sunday.

15        Q.   There is nothing in this transcript that says Ustasha was

16     responsible for this treatment.  Correct?

17        A.   If you -- yeah.

18        Q.   So you put in your statement that they said it was Ustasha, but

19     the persons that you interviewed never said that.  Correct?

20        A.   No.  It's not correct.

21        Q.   Well, it's not in the transcript.  Correct?

22        A.   Yeah.  But this was just an interview.

23        Q.   And the interview that you produced for us or that was produced

24     to us never said anything about Ustasha being responsible for this --

25        A.   Not the interview.  Although, to be honest, I could be wrong

Page 8848

 1     about this.  I just remember -- and I don't know.  There's a lot of raw

 2     footage.  So either I remember from the footage or, you know, the actual

 3     interview, or it was just in conversation; but, I mean, those words were

 4     used.

 5        Q.   There's nothing in the transcript, however, that reflected that?

 6        A.   Right.  Correct.

 7        Q.   Correct?  And you know that Ustasha is considered to be a

 8     derogatory term for Croatians, isn't it?

 9        A.   Absolutely, yeah.

10        Q.   Now, you also say or there's nothing in the transcript here that

11     says that the couple said the persons were -- who were responsible were

12     Croats in uniform with Croatian emblem on their uniform.  Correct?

13        A.   Sorry.  Ask that again, please.

14        Q.   Certainly.  Nothing in the transcript at least in the interview

15     says the persons responsible were Croats in uniform with the Croatian

16     emblem on their uniform.  Correct?

17        A.   That is correct, except I guess he says special forces.

18        Q.   And you don't know what special forces are, do you?

19        A.   I can imagine what Croatian special forces are.  I do know what

20     British special forces are.  I can only imagine that Croatian was similar

21     at the time.

22        Q.   But you don't know that specifically, do you?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   And didn't see them, correct?

25        A.   No.

Page 8849

 1        Q.   During the course of the interview of this couple, and I believe

 2     during direct examination, you had stated that you had heard one gunshot,

 3     and I'll refer to page 6, line 7 of the transcript.  If you look in this

 4     particular transcript, P871, at line 28, there's a notation that there

 5     was an explosion in the distance.  Correct?

 6        A.   Mm-hm.

 7        Q.   It was not a gunshot?

 8        A.   It could have been a gunshot.  If you listen to the tape, it's --

 9     it is debatable.

10        Q.   Well, you don't know for sure --

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   -- one way or the other?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And you don't know if that was an unexploded ordnance or whether

15     it was a mine or whether it was a shell or what it was?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Now, I'd like to refer you to paragraph 13 of your statement.

18     You had described in your direct examination huge plumes of smoke in the

19     distance, and you stated you later learned that the plumes of smoke were

20     coming from the village of Grubori, and you said the distance was about

21     three kilometres across the valley.

22             You were at this spot where you saw the smoke for about 45

23     minutes.  What was the purpose of you being in that particular spot at

24     that time?

25        A.   The first village?

Page 8850

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   The purpose was to film a positive UN almost propaganda-style

 3     film about Serbs and Croats coming together, and I was told that the

 4     meeting would go take place at 10.00.

 5        Q.   And you waited there and there was no meeting?

 6        A.   No.  No Croatian authority person showed up.

 7        Q.   There was also some indication that UNPROFOR had called this

 8     meeting, was it not?

 9        A.   I think perhaps -- I don't know the answer, but perhaps -- I

10     mean, I presume that UNPROFOR had tried to organise these meetings.

11        Q.   Let's turn to 65 ter 3770, please.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And if this is already an exhibit, I did not

13     write the exhibit number down, so I apologise.  It's another -- just the

14     transcript to this particular -- it's a video, but it's just the

15     transcript.

16             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.  Should I be looking at something now?

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

18        Q.   Yeah.  Hopefully, it will pop up on your screen shortly.

19             This is it, the transcript of your 25th August interview, and

20     you're talking with a gentleman by the name of Vlado Savic?

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   And UK 1, I presume, is the questioner, correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And UK 2 is the person responding to the questions?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8851

 1        Q.   And if you see under the UK 2, as a prelude to what I was asking

 2     you about before, this gentleman says, toward the bottom, right about the

 3     middle of page:  "I don't know.  The Croatian army came through.  They

 4     just told me, 'Old man, sit here, don't leave the house, and nobody will

 5     touch you.'  And that is how it was until today."

 6             And then you asked the question:  "The Croatian army came

 7     through?

 8             I presuming you're the questioner, correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the answer is:  "The Croatian army came through.  They didn't

11     touch anything.  They just said, 'Stay at home and don't go out because

12     they're shooting, you know.'"

13             And later, on the next page, you ask:  "What to expect today?

14     Why is there there meeting today?"

15             And the answer:  "Well, we can expect a normalization of life in

16     this town of Plavno.  I think that life will normalize, that people who

17     want to ..."

18             And then you interject and say:  "Just a minute.  Today ... and

19     can you say today there was a meeting with UNPROFOR and the police chief

20     and the mayor of the Croatian government will come ... that's what you

21     have to say."

22             Now, you're telling the person what to say there, aren't you?

23        A.   Yeah.

24        Q.   And you're telling the person that there is a meeting with

25     UNPROFOR, the police chief, and the mayor of the Croatian government.

Page 8852

 1     Correct?

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3        Q.   Where did you get that information?

 4        A.   Well, there was supposed to be -- I mean, Flynn -- Flynn

 5     basically told me that there was going to be a meeting with, as I say,

 6     the -- when I say the mayor of the Croatian government, that's -- I mean,

 7     I thought it was the mayor of that town, the police chief, and UNPROFOR.

 8     So I don't know why I said the mayor of the Croatian government.  Maybe,

 9     maybe I assumed at the time that the new mayor of Knin was sort of coming

10     to, you know, say hello to these people.

11        Q.   That is sheer speculation though, right?

12        A.   Yeah.

13        Q.   As a matter of fact, not only was there no appearance by what you

14     term here "the police chief and the mayor," but there was no UNPROFOR

15     either, right?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   So no one came.

18        A.   Yeah.

19        Q.   And it wasn't just that someone --

20        A.   Except the UN humanitarian officer, and he was assuming -- the

21     reason we went was because he was assuming that all this was going to

22     happen.

23        Q.   Okay.  And as a matter of fact, the person to whom you say,

24     "today ... can you say today there was a meeting with UNPROFOR,"

25     basically repeats what you say in the next line:  "Today UNPROFOR was

Page 8853

 1     here."

 2             And, in fact, UNPROFOR was not there.

 3        A.   No.  What -- the translation would be "dana nje sastanak"

 4     [phoen].  I was trying to get him to say, because he had already said it

 5     and everyone -- we had already had a conversation about this.  And when

 6     you film an interview, the bane, the problem of any journalist's life,

 7     especially when you're dealing with foreign languages, is you need

 8     complete sentences.

 9             So I need the guy to say -- if he is telling me -- there is no

10     point in saying "meeting here today."  I need him to say, "there is a

11     meeting," because that is what -- that's what I'm going to put in my

12     film.  I get the old man saying, "Today, there's going to a meeting."

13        Q.   So what you're doing here is you're not asking questions and he's

14     not giving answers.  You're telling him what to answer, aren't you?

15        A.   Right there, that moment, yes.

16        Q.   As a matter of fact, you're doing it throughout most of this

17     interview.  If you look on page four at the bottom of page 3, you say:

18     "No, no, from the beginning, from the beginning.  What meeting was there

19     this morning and who to except later?"

20             And then the gentleman answers:  "There was a meeting with the

21     peacekeeping forces; that is to say, with UNPROFOR."

22             But there was no meeting with UNPROFOR, was there?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Okay.  And he continues:  "And we expect the mayor and other

25     Croatian authorities who are in Knin.  But in Plavno today, there was

Page 8854

 1     nobody."

 2             And other than you, that is an accurate statement:  In Plavno,

 3     there was nobody from UNPROFOR, there was no mayor, and there were no

 4     Croatian authorities.  Correct?

 5        A.   Right.  I mean, what perhaps is worth explaining is that you talk

 6     to people when you arrive in a place, and the old man - and, again, I

 7     can't remember - but he probably said something like, "Yeah.  We're

 8     having a meeting today, "because that is it what he had been told.  So

 9     all I am trying to do -- the reason it probably looks a little bit odd is

10     I'm just trying to get someone from the village saying, "there's a

11     meeting today," in a full sentence.

12        Q.   But you're telling him -- you're telling him that in the way you

13     want him to say it, not in the way he was actually was saying it.

14        A.   Well, I need him to say a full sentence for the piece.  I mean,

15     any interview needs to use full sentences.  So, yes, I'm telling him the

16     sentence.  He may have said another -- he may have said it a different

17     way.  But I need, for my piece, I need the full sentence.

18        Q.   Well, if we look at page 6 of this same transcript in the middle,

19     just above UK 1, the gentleman says:  "I thought this was an integral

20     part of Croatia and that it would remain Croatian because the superpowers

21     were so inclined."

22             And then you say:  "Just a minute, just a minute.  You must start

23     with Serbian Krajina, they came, the Serbian army or Serbian Krajina.  I

24     don't know how you're going to say it, but you can start with Serbian

25     Krajina came."

Page 8855

 1             I mean, you're basically asking him to answer the question the

 2     way you want it answered.

 3        A.   Absolutely, because I can't use what he is saying in the way

 4     saying it.  It is going to be nonsense when I cut it together.

 5        Q.   And you say later again:  "Just a minute, just a minute.  When

 6     Serbian Krajina started, that's how have you to start your sentence."

 7        A.   Yes, because you have got to remember I didn't speak perfect

 8     Bosnian.  So I'm trying to get those complete sentences, two or three

 9     sentences, for my piece that are going to say, you know, "today, there is

10     a meeting."  I just need someone from the village to say that for me.

11        Q.   On page 8 of this same document --

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we can go to page eight.

13             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.  I don't --

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

15        Q.   I'm sorry.  Page 8 of 65 ter.  It is probably not in front of

16     you, sir, but --

17        A.   Is it on the screen?

18        Q.   It should be on the screen.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to page 8, please.  Thank you.

20        Q.   Toward the middle of where it says UK 3, the sentence begins:

21     "I, Dusanko Grubor ..."

22             In the middle, it says:  "We went down there to the centre where

23     we were supposed to go where Jovo Opacic registered us.  We were supposed

24     to come down today on Friday, to register and to go there with you.  I

25     don't know where you're taking us."

Page 8856

 1             Did you ever found out who Jovo Opacic was?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And was it your impression that you were supposed to take these

 4     people somewhere?

 5        A.   No.  When she says, "you," she means UNPROFOR.

 6        Q.   Well the transcript says, "to go there with you", it doesn't say

 7     "UNPROFOR."

 8        A.   Yes.  But when an old sort of peasant lady sees a white vehicle,

 9     she doesn't distinguish between UN TV and the UN humanitarian assistance

10     or all the different branches.

11        Q.   And if you go to page 9, again at UK 3, the woman answers:  "Jovo

12     Grubor, he lives in Opacici.  He came two days ago.  He wrote down how

13     many of us there were and told us to come on Friday, that UNPROFOR will

14     come here, that they would take us, and that they would tell us when they

15     would leave with us."

16             Now, that's the second name we've heard for this person?  Jovo

17     Grubor, have you ever heard of Jovo Grubor?

18        A.   I -- no, I hadn't heard of him before that.  I remember when

19     editing the piece, we said something like, I mean with the translators in

20     Zagreb, I said, "Who would that be?  Who is Jovo Grubor?"  The village is

21     called Grubor, so we just kind of assumed that maybe it was like a

22     village elder.

23        Q.   And this particular person answers that:  "UNPROFOR ..." --

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Sir, this particular answer in the transcript says:  "UNPROFOR

Page 8857

 1     will come here," but it says nothing about the mayor of Knin or any other

 2     Croatian official.  Correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And if we go to page 10.

 5        Q.   In the middle of the page, again, UK 3, the person was asked:

 6     "What are you go to do now?"

 7             And the answer is:  "Well, we're not going to do anything.  Jovo

 8     told to us come there, that you would chase us to Knin, to a camp.  While

 9     there," and then it is unclear, "what we'll do -- we don't know what

10     we'll do ..." --

11        A.   Sorry.  I can't find where you -- where is this again, please?

12        Q.   Sure.  Page 10?

13        A.   Which paragraph?

14        Q.   I'm sorry.  In the middle, it says UK 3:  "Well, we're not ..."

15        A.   Okay.  Mm-hm.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm just letting the translation catch up.

18        Q.   It says:  "Jovo told us again ..."  -- Sorry.  I will re-ask the

19     question.  Again it says:  "Jovo told us to come there, that you would

20     chase us to Knin, to a camp."

21             Do you have any idea what the person means by that statement?

22        A.   You mean right now, this second?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   Well, I can only imagine.  She was very confused in general and

25     distraught.  So whether some authorities, UN or Serbs or Croatians, had

Page 8858

 1     sort of said that, "We're going to get you out of here," you know, might

 2     have been the Croatian saying, "You've got to leave here."  I don't know.

 3        Q.   You're just guessing at that, aren't you?

 4        A.   Absolutely.  Yeah.  I have know idea.  It was very confusing to

 5     listen to her, so that is all I can think of right now.

 6        Q.   It was your impression, after speaking with her and with other

 7     people, that they were supposed to leave the area, perhaps.

 8        A.   No, no.  No.  I -- when we arrived -- you mean before or after

 9     this?

10        Q.   When you got there, on the 25th?

11        A.   Right.

12        Q.   When you spoke to these people?

13        A.   Right.

14        Q.   You seem to have differing accounts from different people about

15     what was going on, right?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   So there was some confusion?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Some people thought that UNPROFOR had called the meeting?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Some people thought that there was a Croatian official who had

22     called the meeting?

23        A.   Absolutely.

24        Q.   Nobody really knew anything?

25        A.   Absolutely.

Page 8859

 1        Q.   And all these people showed up and nobody knows why?

 2        A.   Well, showed up where?

 3        Q.   In that first meeting that you were at?

 4        A.   No.  They didn't show exactly up because -- well, they were in

 5     the village.  The village was just four or five houses, as far as I

 6     remember.  So, yeah, they just showed up and then nothing happened.

 7        Q.   Then you went and saw --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm sorry.  My case manager has a huge sign here

10     that says "slow down," and I'm not watching it, so I'm sorry.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   When you saw the flames or the smoke across the valley, you were

14     still in that small village.  Correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   That small area --

17        A.   The first one.

18        Q.   And then you went back down?

19        A.   Yeah.

20        Q.   And that was another area where there was a large of group of

21     people.  Correct?

22        A.   Yeah.  If you imagine, along a road, down along a road, base --

23     let's call it base village.  And what I mean by that, it was the village

24     near Grubori.  Grubori is another kilometre, half a kilometre up the hill

25     in the mountain.

Page 8860

 1             So it may have been -- that may have been Grubor village as well.

 2     It was down flat.  It was a school area.  There were people gathered.

 3        Q.   And you didn't stop there though, right?

 4        A.   We did, we did.

 5        Q.   On the way back?

 6        A.   On the way up, we stopped.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   No, sorry.  On the way up, we did not stop.  When we came down

 9     after seeing the burning houses, we did stop.

10        Q.   Now, when you went up to the houses that they were going to try

11     to see where the smoke was coming from, you said there was a short clip

12     that showed the path that you had to take to get up there.  Correct?

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   Yes?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   It is safe to say, in order to get up there, you need a

17     four-wheel drive vehicle?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Especially in the weather that you were dealing with for the day?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, that was very heavily wooded?

22        A.   Not necessarily wood, but it was sort of a hill.  It was hilly,

23     it was steep.

24        Q.   Hilly, lots of trees?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8861

 1        Q.   Fairly rough terrain?

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3        Q.   That's terrain in which it would be pretty easy to hide?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Terrain in which there could be enemy armed combatants and you

 6     wouldn't know it unless you stepped right into it.

 7        A.   Absolutely, yeah.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's go up to where the burning -- or the smoke was

 9     coming from.

10             You said, on the way up to the -- well, you tell me, where did

11     you see the vehicles to your right, the empty vehicles?

12        A.   Okay.  So, if you imagine, you come down from the first village,

13     you go along a road.  Before we start going up again, there are a long

14     vats in between road.

15        Q.   Okay.  And you said in your statement that from your recollection

16     at least as of today, there were six vehicles, roughly?

17        A.   Yeah.

18        Q.   And they were mini-buses?

19        A.   Jeeps.  It was I think jeeps and one sort of mini-van like with

20     no windows.

21        Q.   Okay.  Was that the same kind of van that you saw as you were

22     leaving towards Split?

23        A.   Yes.  It was, in fact, identical, that large windowless van and

24     jeeps.

25        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to show you a video-clip.

Page 8862

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  This is part of P28, Your Honours, and we can

 2     mark it separately.  There is no conversation.

 3             It goes from 34 minutes 6 seconds to 3 minutes 19 second.  We can

 4     tender it as a separate exhibit since it is such a short clip.

 5             MR. MARGETTS:  Your Honour, just as we pause for a moment to get

 6     that video started, Mr. Kuzmanovic was referring to 65 ter 3770 and the

 7     transcript there to.  We --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts, that is P872; is that right?

 9             MR. MARGETTS:  That is P872.  However, we had created 65 ter 5464

10     as being a part of 65 ter 3770.  But the transcript that was presented is

11     identical to the one that is P872.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sorry.  That was my confusion.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So there is no need to seek further admission of

14     that; it is in evidence.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That was part of my

17     confusion.  Thanks for clarifying that, counsel.

18             Why don't we go to the clip.  Your Honour, may we show the clip?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

20                           [Videotape played]

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Stop it for a second.  Okay.

22        Q.   That white windowless van, that was the same van that you saw on

23     the road from --

24        A.   Yeah, vans like that --

25        Q.   -- when you were going to Split --

Page 8863

 1        A.   -- about, you know, a lot of them.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Keep going.

 4                           [Videotape played]

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would to tender that video,

 6     please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts.

 8             MR. MARGETTS:  No objection, other than it is a portion of P28.

 9     Do we want that as a portion --

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It is of no matter to me.  We shortened it

11     because it was part of a larger clip, and if we want to keep it as P28

12     and refert to it by the minutes that I refer to before, that is fine with

13     me, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. MARGETTS:  No objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I'm a bit lost.  You want it separate.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I had wanted to tender it as a separate exhibit,

18     Your Honour, simply because it was just a very short clip of the

19     mini-van -- of the jeeps and mini-bus that he had discussed in his

20     testimony, rather than put the whole tape again and find it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It makes sense.  I remember that it was

22     earlier played as a short clip as well, but then part of a larger video.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, during Mr. Flynn's testimony.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you assign a number to this

25     extract from what is already in evidence.

Page 8864

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D784, Your

 2     Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D784 is admitted into evidence.  And we now all know

 4     that it's, to some extent, a repetition of what we have seen in a larger

 5     video earlier.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Before I get to the spot where you go up to where the smoke was,

 9     sir, I'd like you to refer to your statement; page 4 -- page 6,

10     paragraph 41.

11             This is, again, where you discussed where "the convoy of white

12     mini-buses passed us going the same direction, 20 vans all unmarked."

13             Now, during your direct testimony, you talked about this being

14     perhaps something that you were worried about them wanting to pull you

15     over and you refer to as being a little overdramatic, did you not?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, white mini-buses, you could not have seen that they were

18     full of uniformed personnels since those mini-buses, which you said were

19     the same as the white mini-bus here, had no windows?

20        A.   No, there was a mixture.  It was a mixture of the vans and then

21     the jeeps that can you see in to.

22        Q.   Well, let's refer back to your statement:  "As we were

23     travelling, a convoy of these white mini-buses full of uniformed

24     personnel passed us going the same direction."

25             You didn't say anything about jeeps, correct?

Page 8865

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You specifically said white mini-buses, correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And the white mini-bus, you said was the same as the white

 5     mini-bus in the video that you saw?

 6        A.   Well, no, because there were also buses without windows -- I

 7     mean, with windows.  Basically, just to clarify, there seemed to me that

 8     the vehicles we saw in general on those two days were jeeps, the ones

 9     like in the -- the ones notice footage; there were vans with windows; and

10     there were sort of smaller than those vans we just saw, a type of what

11     can only be described as a mini-bus, with windows.

12        Q.   And who they belonged to or what they were doing have you no

13     include?

14        A.   Well, I do, in the sense that they were emblems on the side of

15     some of them.

16        Q.   But you don't -- you can't tell what you say they are today?

17        A.   Well, Croatian police emblem.

18        Q.   And you don't mention that at all in your statement in 2001.

19     Correct?

20        A.   Are we talking about the convoy that passed us?

21        Q.   Yes, paragraph 41.

22        A.   Yeah.  I don't recall saying that there was an emblem on the side

23     of the vehicles.

24        Q.   As a matter of fact, you say there were 20 vans all unmarked in

25     paragraph 41, correct?

Page 8866

 1        A.   Right.

 2        Q.   So there were no emblems at least as according to your statement?

 3        A.   As far as I can remember -- I can't remember is the answer.  I

 4     mean, there may have been --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters apologies.  We cannot follow at

 6     this speed.  Please make pause between question and answer.  Thank you.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Perhaps.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I apologise, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I should take an emblem as a speed police.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Well, I know I would get a lot of tickets if

13     that was the case, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Just to finish that theme, your statement said that there were

15     about 20 vans all unmarked.  Correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Let's go back up to see where you were going to see where the

18     smoke had come from.  When you got up to where the smoke was going on,

19     you did speak with some people, correct?

20        A.   Mm-hm.

21        Q.   Yes?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And at that point, you knew of no casualties of any kind,

24     correct?

25        A.   No.

Page 8867

 1        Q.   Can you recall how many homes were on fire?

 2        A.   Yes.  There were about six, I would say.

 3        Q.   And as a matter of fact, I think in one of your transcripts?

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And I'm going to again to refer it to it as a 65

 5     ter, and I'm sure Mr. Margetts hopefully will help me out if it has

 6     already been marked as an exhibit.  It's 65 ter 3769 which is part of the

 7     92 ter submission, Your Honour; just the transcript and not the --

 8             MR. MARGETTS:  Yes that was re-marked as 65 ter 5465, and is

 9     P873.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. Margetts.

11        Q.   P873, on the second page, at the very top, there's a question

12     that says:  "Tell me, how many houses were there in Grubori."

13             And the answer is there:  "There are about 20."

14             And the question is:  "About 20 all together, the whole of

15     Grubori?

16             And the answer is:  "The whole of Grubori."

17             And then again someone asks:  "We heard earlier that there

18     were 40.

19             And the response is:  "No, no.  No, no."

20             So from your recollection, there were six homes burning out

21     of 20?

22        A.   Around, yeah.

23        Q.   Okay.  So it is fair to state at least that the whole village of

24     Grubori was not in flames, if there were six homes burning out of 20?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8868

 1        Q.   Okay.  And, actually, there was a question asked later --

 2        A.   Sorry.  Some had burned out.  When you say on burning, I'm

 3     talking about seeing flames coming out of them.

 4        Q.   Okay.  All right.

 5        A.   And there were other charred houses with window-frames that were

 6     charred that had been burning, obviously, to me, and it was -- there

 7     was -- it was heavy rain.

 8             So I assumed, from the time we saw the plumes of smoke to when we

 9     got there, some had -- some of the burning had died down.

10        Q.   You can't tell me right now whether those homes that you saw that

11     you said had not been burning but appeared to have been burned was done

12     on that particular day or was it done earlier.  You can't tell me that?

13        A.   I think I can, in the sense that they were smouldering.  So if

14     you see a sort of window-frame still smouldering, I presume that that had

15     happened that morning.

16        Q.   Later on in this statement, you were asked:  "How many houses are

17     on fire now."

18             And the answer is:  "How are we supposed to know?"

19             Then another answer:  "We don't know.  Well, we must count them,

20     you, us.  We'll count them now."

21             And then at the end of that page, it says:  "Four that are

22     burning up there."

23             So, at least as of the transcript of this particular interview

24     that was done that day, there were four burning homes?

25        A.   Right, at that moment.

Page 8869

 1        Q.   But it is fair to state that the whole of Grubori was not on

 2     fire.  Correct?

 3        A.   It is fair.  But there another something that may be relevant.

 4     To this day, I don't know whether the village down below, where there was

 5     no burning, I still don't know whether that was counted as Grubor as

 6     well; but, certainly, in the hamlet.  Well, I call it hamlet because, as

 7     I say, there were much fewer houses.

 8        Q.   So, then, after you took this video of these people, you left for

 9     Knin.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  We went back down the hill; we stopped at the larger

11     homestead, village, by a school; and then we went back to Knin.

12        Q.   In your interview of these ladies, there was no discussion of who

13     was present when the fires began.  Correct?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And there was no discussion of what --

16        A.   Not on the interview.  But I had asked her -- they had sort of --

17     what happened, it seemed to me, was they had all been told by someone to

18     go down to the other village, to the main part.  And when -- in the

19     confusion, someone had told the women that, you know, "your husband's

20     gone."  And somehow she realized, maybe someone told her, that he hadn't

21     gone.  So that's why she was still there, was my understanding at the

22     time.  Plus, there was some other old ladies there who were simply too

23     frail to leave their homes anyway.

24        Q.   Sure.  You refer to this in paragraph 17 of your statement, and

25     in the middle of that paragraph.  This is the lady that you interviewed

Page 8870

 1     which we had gone over the transcript, Dusanko Grubor, who told that you

 2     the UN had convened a meeting in the village below.

 3             Then in that same paragraph :  "After leaving Grubori, she

 4     noticed plumes of smoke back in the village, so she returned to see what

 5     had happened as she feared for her husband's safety.  She told us, 'My

 6     husband and a friend's husband are too old and couldn't go to the

 7     meeting.'  She said she couldn't find her husband now."

 8             Now, there was no discussion at least in your statement or in the

 9     interview of what she thought caused the smoke and the fire to begin

10     with.  Correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Now, you came back, and on your way back to Knin, you had the

13     video with you?

14        A.   Yeah.

15        Q.   And the video was then sent by helicopter to Zagreb that same

16     day?

17        A.   I can't remember whether we kept it with us and sent the whole

18     package after the interview with General Cermak, or whether I thought I

19     should sent it -- just that portion of the burning villages immediately.

20             However, given that the most violent images were taken the day --

21     the next day, the two corpses, I assume or I'm pretty certain that I

22     would have waited till after the interview with General Cermak.

23        Q.   Now, you said in paragraph 25 that Mr. Flynn told you that there

24     were two elderly male bodies found, one had its throat slit and the other

25     one was shot in the back of the head.

Page 8871

 1             Now, this is information you got from Mr. Flynn?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Do you know whether there was any investigation done by any

 4     police authority that demonstrated that one person had his throat slit?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 6             THE WITNESS:  When?

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 8        Q.   At any time.

 9        A.   Do you mean UN or Croatian police?

10        Q.   Any police?

11        A.   No, I don't know, no.  But I saw it next day.

12        Q.   Are you a medical forensic examiner?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know -- well, you first saw the body inside a building,

15     correct?

16        A.   Yeah.

17        Q.   And that's the body that was -- allegedly had its throat slit?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Is that where the person was killed?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   Do you know whether the person was dragged into that spot from

22     the outside?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Okay.  So, as far as you know, the person who you claim you saw

25     that had his throat slit was killed in that spot where he lay?

Page 8872

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   As a matter of fact, in paragraph 37 of your statement, you

 3     state:  "This second victim was in the hallway near the front entry of

 4     the house.  This victim was laying on his front.  It was obvious his

 5     throat had been slit.  He appeared to have fallen down."

 6             So did you videotape this person?

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   Do you know that this person had been found some distance away

 9     from the home and had been dragged there and placed there by someone?

10        A.   I know that the old lady had said something about finding her

11     husband near the cow, but I didn't know whether that was correct or not.

12        Q.   So you can't tell me for a fact whether this person had his

13     throat slit.  Correct?

14        A.   I know what I saw, and it looked like he had his throat slit.  I

15     mean, there was a deep, dark line around here, and there was a pool of

16     blood on the floor, so ...

17        Q.   There was a pool of blood on the floor?

18        A.   Yeah.

19        Q.   Did you go and check and see from where the body had been

20     dragged?

21        A.   No.  I didn't know -- I assumed at that moment when we were

22     filming, that it had been done there.

23        Q.   Okay.  So you broadcast the fact that this person was someone who

24     had his throat slit without really knowing for a fact that that had

25     happened?

Page 8873

 1        A.   No.  I knew it because I had seen it with my own eyes.

 2        Q.   You haven't seen somebody slit the this gentleman's throat.  You

 3     saw a dead body lying on the floor, and you assumed he had his throat

 4     slit.

 5        A.   No, I didn't assume.  I could physically see that his throat had

 6     been slashed.

 7        Q.   There was not one --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, you gave as an estimate of thought

 9     30 to 45 minutes.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm almost done.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You're almost down.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Flynn [sic], there was not one instance in Grubori where

15     someone was --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, if you'd addressed the witness by

17     his own name, that would be preferable.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That would be preferable, Your Honour, I agree.

19        Q.   Mr. Lyntton, there was not one verified case of any elderly

20     person being dragged out of their home in pyjamas and shot in front of

21     their home in Grubori.  Correct?

22        A.   No.  The pyjama reference is the man that was in his pyjamas in

23     bed, and had been dragged onto the floor in the house that we filmed in

24     the footage.

25        Q.   So people were not dragged out of homes in Grubori in their

Page 8874

 1     pyjamas and shot, correct?

 2        A.   Not people, but at least one person.

 3        Q.   In the whole house, correct, not out of the house?

 4        A.   He was in the house.

 5        Q.   And how that happened you don't know either, correct?

 6        A.   No, I don't know.

 7        Q.   He was shot, he was dead, the circumstances of that you don't

 8     know?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   You did not report any of this to the police in Knin, correct?

11        A.   Croatian or UNCIVPOL?

12        Q.   Croatian?

13        A.   Well, in the sense that I told General Cermak what we had found.

14        Q.   Well, he is not the police, is he?

15        A.   I assumed he --

16        Q.   I'm not asking to you assume.  Was he -- General Cermak was not

17     the civilian police in Knin, correct?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness finished his answer, what he

19     assumed?

20             What did you assume?

21                 THE WITNESS:  I assumed that the man wearing a uniform just

22     days after what had happened, the cleansing of Serb, would know -- I

23     mean, whether he was police or military, that was the authority.  There

24     was no distinction for me coming outside -- coming from outside.  They

25     were the authorities.  So I assume that the military person I was talking

Page 8875

 1     to would tell the police if that was their procedure.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 3        Q.   My question to you was:  You didn't tell the police, correct?

 4     You didn't tell the civilian police in Knin what you had seen, correct?

 5        A.   I did not because I didn't -- I as far as I knew, there was no

 6     police, so, no.

 7        Q.   And you never made an attempt to find out who the police person

 8     was supposed to be that was supposed to come to Grubor that day, correct?

 9        A.   No.  Again, because in such a small area with so few people

10     visible, to me, General Cermak was the one in charge.

11        Q.   And you sent a videotape out of what had happened without really

12     discussing any details with the police or finding out what kind of

13     investigation they were going to undertake or did undertake?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Correct.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I don't have any other questions Your Honours.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

19             Mr. Margetts.

20             MR. MARGETTS:  I probably have at least 15 to 20 minutes, Your

21     Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Margetts:

24        Q.   Mr. Lyntton, during the course of the cross-examination,

25     particularly various questions that Ms. Higgins asked you, you were asked

Page 8876

 1     about your impressions of General Cermak's authority and what you based

 2     those impressions on.  You were also asked about your impressions of

 3     General Cermak's knowledge of events in Grubori and what you based those

 4     impressions on, and you enumerated a number of factors.

 5             Now, you had the opportunity to speak with General Cermak at some

 6     length; and the interview which you conducted with him, we have and we've

 7     looked at today.

 8             Did the answers that he gave you to the various questions you

 9     asked give you any impression as to his authority?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, you have the transcript of the interview before you?

12        A.   Do I?

13        Q.   I think you do.  If I am not mistaken, I think that's the

14     interview --

15        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... that's on the same -- this is the --

16        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... villages, if you look to your right.

17        A.   Oh, this one, yeah.  Sorry.

18        Q.   I think now have you it.

19        A.   Mm-hm.

20        Q.   That's P504.  If I had more time, I may just ask you to consider

21     the entire interview, but, instead, I think it is more efficient if I

22     take to you various answers and then I ask you for your comment on those

23     portions of the interview.

24             The first part I'd like to take you to of P504, the English

25     transcript, is on the first page.  And you, after discussing the events

Page 8877

 1     in Grubori in the initial questions with General Cermak, you then asked

 2     specifically:  "Could he give a description of the combat, the kind of

 3     combat that took place in the village."

 4             And you'll see that question just below the midway point of the

 5     first page.

 6             And he gives you some details about the number of members of the

 7     special police, what they were doing; and the final sentence of that

 8     answer he says:  "And at that moment, when they were fired at, our

 9     special forces returned the fire; and, well, that returning of fire

10     resulted in, well, wounding and it resulted in setting houses on fire."

11             Now, we looked at that specific answer in your examination this

12     morning.  So I'm now asking about any of these things that I referred to

13     that in any manner made an impression on you.

14             I'd now like to take you to the bottom of page 2.  And we also

15     looked at this this morning, the issue of humanitarian assistance, and

16     the last clarification that General Cermak seeks is he asks what village

17     and what police forces are you talking about.  You tell him Grubori.

18             And then if we go over to page 3, General Cermak then gives an

19     explanation if there were police cars and he refers to check-points.

20             Then in the last part he says:  "These were blocking points ..."

21     This is the last three lines of the answer appears at the top of page 3:

22     "These were blocking points.  So the police had their basic task to wait

23     for any of these members of the Chetnik formations or, well ..."  --

24             MR. MARGETTS:  Apologies.  We just need to be mindful of the

25     interpretation, so I will just pause for a moment.

Page 8878

 1        Q.    "... or, well, the Serbian military to show up at these blocking

 2     points."  And he says:  "This was their task and they were carrying out

 3     that task."

 4             Then you ask the next question, and you talk about the ten empty

 5     vehicles.  Then he answers you as follows.  He says:  "Look, I don't

 6     know.  He asked me today.  The gentleman put the question to me today.

 7     He said, "Today I saw six police cars ... outside of this village.  I

 8     wasn't there.  I couldn't see that.  I can only tell the gentleman one

 9     thing:  'Had we wanted to cover up anything, had we not wanted something

10     to be known, we wouldn't have let them get close to that area.'"

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts, you're now reading for a couple of

12     minutes sequences which we have heard earlier today.  I take it at the

13     end you would say what impression did it give you or kind of question.

14             MR. MARGETTS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not put a question to the witness at this

16     moment, rather than to seek.  Of course, Ms. Higgins has shown us where

17     in the interview Mr. Cermak says, "I don't know."  "I don't know."  And,

18     of course, there are other parts of the interview where he explains

19     exactly what had happened.

20             I mean, the Chamber can read, can listen, and, of course, the

21     Chamber can think to the extent that where Ms. Higgins pointed at certain

22     portions that this was not the whole of the interview.  Now you are

23     apparently completing the whole of the interview, so that we have heard

24     it twice, and that we know what other people get as an impression on the

25     basis of that; whereas, primarily, I think it is what impression or what

Page 8879

 1     conclusions the Chamber could draw from that.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. MARGETTS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It is just out of an

 4     abundance of caution I wish to provide a full -- I mean, as I said, I

 5     would like him to be able to read the whole interview.

 6             I will just refer to, then, two sentences without giving the

 7     entire previous context.

 8        Q.   In the middle of the page, General Cermak says:  "I will gather

 9     all the information, I will get a full report from the civilian police,

10     from the special police, and then we can get together again and talk

11     about this whole case again."

12             And then further down on that same page, General Cermak says:

13     "If anything illegal occurred, I will personally carry out an

14     investigation."

15             Now, as you understand, everyone has the transcript before them,

16     you conducted the interview, you have had an opportunity to read that

17     interview.  And my question is simply that:  In terms of your impression,

18     and that was the impression you conveyed in your evidence today, the

19     impression conveyed in your witness statement that he was the military

20     governor in charge of the area, in terms of what he said to you in

21     interview, did you gain an impression of his level of authority in the

22     area?

23        A.   Yeah.  He seemed to know what was going on, and the fact that he

24     was offering to investigate what I had told him, again, led me to -- to

25     think that, you know, he has some considerable influence, command, and

Page 8880

 1     knowledge of what is going on here.

 2        Q.   Now, one of the questions you were asked by Ms. Higgins was

 3     whether you had the opportunity to question whether General Cermak was

 4     the so-called military governor.  At any stage, was there any information

 5     conveyed to you by anyone whilst in Knin or, alternatively, during the

 6     course of the interview with General Cermak that would have caused you to

 7     question your impression as to his authority?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Ms. Higgins also asked you -- she said, after you had relayed

10     some of the detail that you knew about the events in Grubori, she asked

11     you didn't it, in fact -- didn't it become, in fact, clear that during

12     the course of that interview and given his responses, he didn't actually

13     know at that time the extent of what had happened up there; and you said

14     no.  And she asked would you that be fair, and you said not exactly.

15             Now, what was your impression in that interview, in light of the

16     information that you possessed and had gathered in your two visits to

17     Grubori and in the manner in which General Cermak had answered the

18     various questions from the start of the interview?

19             What was your impression as to his knowledge and his denial?

20        A.   The interview, for me, could be spread into three parts.  The

21     first bit was a confident commander, answering about his general

22     knowledge of the area.  Then, when I started getting specific, I felt

23     that he began to get a little bit flustered, the body language, the eyes

24     battering.  So, as a journalist, I thought I was on to something.  And

25     then third part of the interview, when I went into the specifics, I felt

Page 8881

 1     that he was becoming very sort of polite and speeded up the process, sort

 2     of wanting to finish.  And it just didn't gel for me; the tone, how he

 3     started, didn't stay consistent throughout the whole interview.

 4             So I guess could you say, in other words, I didn't totally

 5     believe him, and I wanted -- that's why I kept pressing certain

 6     questions, to see what reaction they might provoke.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Just one final matter, and that was when you were in

 8     Grubori and actually filming the burning homes.  Did you walk around the

 9     village in any attempt to survey the entirety of the village, or did you

10     seek merely to capture the footage that we've seen?

11        A.   We did.  We walked around as much as we could.  We obviously

12     wanted the dramatic fire shots.  That was the crucial thing.  So, once we

13     got those, we wanted to get out, because Flynn and the interpreter were

14     very, very worried, I mean, that someone might find us there --

15        Q.   And --

16        A.   -- and do something nasty to us.

17        Q.   And do you feel that you informed yourself as to which homes had

18     been on fire and been extinguished --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   -- or which homes had been --

21        A.   Absolutely.

22        Q.   -- damaged?

23             Thank you very much.

24             MR. MARGETTS:  No further questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Margetts.

Page 8882

 1             Ms. Higgins.

 2             MS. HIGGINS:  I just have several questions arising from the

 3     questioning of my learned friend Mr. Kuzmanovic and my learned friend

 4     Mr. Margetts, if Your Honour would permit me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please put those questions.  May I invite the

 6     parties - of course, I'm not directly addressing you, although you appear

 7     to be the one to put further questions to the witness - to seek facts

 8     rather than impressions, because a lot of things that appear to be rather

 9     obvious when looking at the video and, Mr. Margetts, in the totality of

10     the account, of course no one would have expected Mr. Lyntton to go

11     through the village closing his eyes for the smoke and start counting

12     houses and then to interview people on how many people lived in those

13     houses.

14             Of course, that is so obvious, isn't it?  It rather becomes a --

15     let's try to avoid that this becomes a bad tradition, and Ms. Higgins

16     will now be the first one to show that it is not.

17             Please proceed.

18                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:

19        Q.   Just a few additional questions.

20             You've already -- I have already dealt with you about the remit

21     of your actual knowledge of Mr. Cermak's authority, given the limited

22     time you were in the region.

23        A.   Mm-hm.

24        Q.   I'm not going to deal with that again.  You've given me answers

25     on that.

Page 8883

 1             In respect of the interview that you had with Mr. Cermak, you

 2     have also confirmed to me, have you not, that did not know and were not

 3     told where he got his information from.  Correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I think, having locked at the transcript in some

 6     detail now, you would also agree with me that in the transcript of the

 7     interview, you called him General but you never called him military

 8     governor.  Correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Now, you referred, when asked by my learned friend Mr. Kuzmanovic

11     about the purpose of the UN film, and you mentioned propaganda and that

12     there was a certain story that you were asked to look for.  Correct?

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   To use your words, you described it, in terms of the footage and

15     story about Grubori, as a perfect story.  And to be fair to you, as an UN

16     producer and director, you had what you called the evidence, and you had

17     what you called a denial.  And, so, technically, you had a good classic

18     format for a film.  Would that be fair?

19        A.   Correct, yeah.

20        Q.   It's right, however, isn't it, that in the film that you made

21     about Grubori, you didn't include in that footage the seven occasions

22     that I have shown to you about Mr. Cermak saying the words, "I don't

23     know."  Would that be right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Yeah.  Thank you very much, Mr. Lyntton.

Page 8884

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Higgins.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Actually, sorry.  Can I just add something?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I mean, that last question, he does --  one of the

 5     key sentences was, I don't know where the gentleman got his information

 6     from that people were taken out and put in their pyjamas, et cetera, that

 7     I did include in my piece.  So he does say, "I don't know where," to

 8     answer the question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That furthers the position of your answer.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             I have one question for you.  You earlier were asked where we

12     find in the transcript that those two elderly people told you about

13     people in Croatian uniform arriving and with Croatian emblems.

14             Now, you answered the question by saying, no, that does not

15     appear in the footage in the transcript.

16             Did they tell you, so even if not recorded, did they tell you

17     that people had arrived Croatian uniforms with Croatian emblems?

18        A.   They told me "Ustasha," "Ustasha."  They kept using that word.

19     They said it was Croatian military.  This is in the preamble, you know,

20     when we first met them.  And I cannot remember whether I said

21     specifically, "Was there a Croatian police emblem on their sleeve?"  But

22     my practice in those cases was always to try and ask that question, but I

23     honestly just can't remember whether I specifically asked those two

24     people that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So, whether they mentioned Croatian uniforms or

Page 8885

 1     confirmed that and Croatian emblems or confirmed that, you do not have

 2     sufficient recollection anymore to --

 3        A.   Not the word "uniform"; but "Croatian," that was clear that it

 4     was Croatian.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, you referred to police emblems are

 6     always gained the impression that it was not specifically about police

 7     but, rather, military, as you also said.  Was that a slip of the tongue?

 8        A.   Sorry, I said what?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just find it for you.

10             Yes you said:  "And I cannot remember whether I said specifically

11     was there a Croatian police emblem on their sleeves; whereas, for me, the

12     whole context was military rather than police."

13        A.   Yes, right, absolutely.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that a slip of the tongue?

15        A.   Yes, it was.  Also, at the time, we all often intermingle those

16     two words, police, military, police military.  They were so intertwined

17     for us working in that area.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

19             One final point to verify:  What you produced, you said it was

20     broadcasted by other television stations.  Was it produced in any way as

21     a commercial production?

22        A.   No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  It was just that you were employed, it was made

24     available or was it sold to these --

25        A.   Your Honour, no, no.  The films, in general, were for consumption

Page 8886

 1     by Serb, Croatian, and Bosnia local TV stations, which, of course, were

 2     free; and even when the footage that was given -- the raw footage was

 3     given to the networks, no, that was not commercial.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 5             May I take it that the questions by the Bench have not triggered

 6     any further need.

 7             Then, Mr. Lyntton, this concludes your testimony in this court.

 8     I'd like to thank you very much for coming and for answering the

 9     questions that put to you by the parties and by the Bench.

10             I wish you safe journey home again.

11             And for the parties, we'll adjourn and we resume on Wednesday,

12     the 17th of September, at 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

13     III.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.02 p.m.,

15                            to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

16                            September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.