Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10698

 1                           Thursday, 16 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 5     courtroom, and also Ms. Alvarez in Zagreb.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Before we start hearing the testimony of the next witness, the

12     Chamber would like to deliver its decision.  That is a decision on the

13     Prosecution's motion to hear the testimony of Witness 41 - that's the

14     witness who will testify today - via video-conference link.

15             On the 2nd of October, 2008, the Prosecution filed a motion

16     requesting, among other matters, to hear the testimony of Witness 41 via

17     video-conference link from Croatia on the 16th of October, 2008.

18             On the 6th and the 7th October 2008 respectively all three

19     Defence teams stated that they did not object to the Prosecution's

20     request.

21             On the 7th October 2008, having received at least an informal

22     indication of the Defence positions at that time, the Chamber decided to

23     grant the request for a video-conference link and informed the parties

24     accordingly through an informal communication.

25             According to Rule 81 bis of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and

Page 10699

 1     Evidence, a chamber may order that proceedings be conducted by way of a

 2     video-conference link if it is consistent with the interests of justice.

 3     The test of Rule 81 bis is met if the witness is unable to come to the

 4     Tribunal, if the testimony of the witness is sufficiently important to

 5     make it unfair to the requesting party to proceed without it, and if the

 6     accused is not prejudiced in the exercise of his or her rights to

 7     confront the witness.

 8             The Chamber has taken into consideration the highly advanced age

 9     of Witness 41, who is in his 80s, and his physical condition.  Both

10     Witness 41's son and an investigator of the Prosecution who visited

11     Witness 41 several times have expressed serious concerns that, in view of

12     his age, Witness 41 is not in a condition to travel to The Hague to

13     testify.

14             The Chamber is therefore satisfied that the advanced age of

15     Witness 41 makes him unable to travel to the Tribunal to testify.

16             The witness is expected to testify, inter alia, about scheduled

17     killing incident number 8, the shelling of his village, and the looting

18     and burning of houses in his village, as alleged in the indictment.  The

19     Chamber is satisfied that his prospective testimony is sufficiently

20     important to make it unfair to the Prosecution to proceed without it.

21             Finally, the Defence has not argued, and the Chamber does not

22     find that the accused would be prejudiced in the exercise of their right

23     to confront the witness.  Consequently, the Chamber finds that it is

24     consistent with the interests of justice to grant the Prosecution's

25     request to hear Witness 41's testimony via video-conference link and the

Page 10700

 1     Prosecution's motion is therefore granted.

 2             This concludes the Chamber's ruling on that matter.

 3             I see two representatives of the registry [sic] who is going to

 4     examine the witness.  It will be you?

 5             MS. FROLICH:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Frolich, I have not seen any application for

 7     protective measures.

 8             MS. FROLICH:  There is no application, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no application.  Because, until now, I

10     talked about Witness 41 and therefore we can now talk about

11     Mr. Ognjenovic.

12             The representative of the registry in Zagreb, is the witness

13     stand by?

14             THE REGISTRAR [Via videolink]:  Your Honours, the witness is in

15     the room beside us.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could you escort the witness into the courtroom

17     and perhaps first explain who are in the courtroom, in the room you are

18     in in Zagreb.

19             THE REGISTRAR [Via videolink]:  We have floor technician and

20     myself.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no one else.

22             Thank you, could you escort the witness into the room you're in.

23             Good morning.  Mr. Ognjenovic, can you see me and can you hear me

24     in a language you understand?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

Page 10701

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you also see me on your screen in front of you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ognjenovic, before you give evidence, the Rules

 4     of Procedure require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak

 5     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             May I invite you to make that solemn declaration of which the

 7     text will be handed out to you by the representative of the registry.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.  I solemnly declare --

 9     shall I read this out aloud?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you please do so.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ognjenovic.

14             Mr. Ognjenovic, first, Ms. Frolich will put questions to you.

15     You'll see a -- you will see her on your screen next.

16             Ms. Frolich, please proceed.

17             MS. FROLICH:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           WITNESS:  MIRKO OGNJENOVIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           [Witness testified via videolink]

21                           Examination by Ms. Frolich:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ognjenovic.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Could you please state your full name for the record.

25        A.   Mirko Ognjenovic.  I was born in 1921 on the 16th of November.

Page 10702

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ognjenovic.  Now before we begin I will just ask

 2     you to make a brief pause between question and answer so that the court

 3     interpreters can keep up.

 4             Now, did you give a statement to the investigators of the Office

 5     of the Prosecutor on the 23rd and 24th January 1999?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   Now could we have --

 8        A.   I made a true statement about what happened.  There's nothing for

 9     me to repeat here but the truth which I've already said, and anything I

10     would have to say today would just be repeating.  And I don't think I

11     could really repeat everything I've said before at my age, but I can

12     confirm that everything I said there is true.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ognjenovic.  We will just go through some -- some

14     procedural matters now for the Court.

15             MS. FROLICH:  Could we have 65 ter number 5962 on the screen,

16     please.

17             And for the Madam Registrar in Zagreb, that is tab 1 in B/C/S and

18     tab 2 in English.  And if we could please concentrate on the English

19     version for the moment, and the first page.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What am I supposed to do now?

21             MS. FROLICH:

22        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, do you see the first page of the document that

23     the Madam Registrar is showing to you?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you recognise the signature in the bottom right corner of this

Page 10703

 1     page as yours?

 2        A.   Yes, I recognise it.

 3        Q.   Now, if we could go to the next-to-last page of this statement,

 4     just before the interpreter's certification.  That's page 9 in e-court.

 5        A.   I see it.

 6        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, do you see your signature on this page?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Ognjenovic, after your statement was recorded, was it

 9     read back to you in a language that you understand?

10        A.   It was read back to me last week.

11        Q.   Right.  What I mean to say is when this statement was recorded in

12     1999, was it then read back to you in a language that you understand?

13        A.   Yes, it was.

14        Q.   And when it was read to you, did it accurately reflect what you

15     said at that time?

16        A.   Yes, it did.

17        Q.   Was it in full accordance with the truth, as you know it?

18        A.   Yes, it is in full accordance.  That's for sure.

19        Q.   Would you give the same statement today if you were asked the

20     same questions?

21        A.   Yes, if I could recall everything.

22             MS. FROLICH:  Mr. President, I would move to tender this

23     statement into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

25             Mr. Registrar, the 1999 statement of the witness Ognjenovic.

Page 10704

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Our Honour, if I could just clarify, I assume that

 4     the Prosecution is tendering the 1999 statement subject to the

 5     corrections made in the proofing statements and subsequent statement.

 6             MS. FROLICH:  Yes, it's --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We have seen the subsequent statement.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  The reason I ask that the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The proofing statements are not available to the

11     Chamber.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, the reason I ask is the way question

13     was posed to him was does the statement in 1999 reflect accurately and

14     truthfully what he said in 1999 and I think there are changes or

15     corrections that are made in the proofing statements so I just don't want

16     there to be any confusion and before agree I wanted to make sure that

17     those corrections that he made in these proofing statements will be made.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Often, Ms. Frolich, the procedure is used where we

19     go through statements subsequently and then even sometimes have some

20     additional questions and then tender the documents all together.

21             MS. FROLICH:  That is understood, Mr. President.  I will go --

22     I'm going through the motions with the witness.  As I'm sure you can

23     appreciate it, it is easier to do it this way, but of course that's

24     subject to corrections.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  For the time being we leave the statement marked for

Page 10705

 1     identification so that we know what we're talking about and,

 2     Ms. Frolich --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, let me just add I think it will make

 4     things easier.  I have no objection to Ms. Frolich leading the witness

 5     through the corrections that he made if that will make things easier for

 6     everyone.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and apparently the same position is taken by

 8     other Defence counsel.

 9             Mr. Registrar, that 1999 statement would be.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P989, marked for identification,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Please proceed, Ms. Frolich.

14             MS. FROLICH:  I would first go through Mr. Ognjenovic's 2004

15     statement if that is all right and then proceed to the corrections that

16     he made on the 8th of October, 2008.

17             Could we have 65 ter number 5963 on the screen, please.  For the

18     Madam Registrar in Zagreb that is tab 3 in B/C/S and tab 4 in English.

19             And again if we could concentrate on the English version now.

20     First page.

21        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, do you see the first page of this document that

22     Madam Registrar is showing to you?

23        A.   I can see it.

24        Q.   Is this your signature on the bottom right corner of this page?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10706

 1        Q.   Now, after -- sorry.

 2             MS. FROLICH:  Can we go to the last page.

 3        Q.   Is this your signature, Mr. Ognjenovic?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   Sorry, the second page of the statement, not the interpreter

 6     interpretation, yes.

 7             Mr. Ognjenovic, after your statement was recorded, was it read

 8     back to you in the language that you understand?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And when it was read back to you, did it accurately reflect what

11     you said at the time?

12        A.   I think it is.

13        Q.   Was it in full accordance with the truth, as you know it?

14        A.   Yes, it does reflect the truth, for sure.

15        Q.   Would you give the same statement today if you were asked the

16     same questions?

17        A.   I would.

18             MS. FROLICH:  If this statement could then be marked for

19     identification, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P990,

22     marked for identification.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24             MS. FROLICH:  Now, Madam Registrar, if we could go to tabs five

25     and 6, 5 in B/C/S.  That's 65 ter 5964, the supplemental information

Page 10707

 1     sheet provided by the witness.

 2        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, did you meet with the investigators of the Office

 3     of the Prosecutor on the 8th of October, 2008?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   And at that time, did you have an opportunity to revise your

 6     previous statements and make some corrections?

 7        A.   I don't remember everything.

 8        Q.   On your --

 9        A.   I think -- I think there were no corrections at all.  I'm not

10     really sure.

11        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, is this your signature on the English version of

12     the document?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Ognjenovic, did you correct -- at the time that -- that

15     you met with the investigators did you make a correction stating that

16     whereas in your first statement on page 2 you said that shells fell in

17     your village on the day before Operation Storm, you really meant to say

18     that some shells fell in the village some months before Operation Storm

19     but not during the operation itself, and that during Operation Storm

20     shells fell --

21        A.   Before, before.  Earlier on.  There was nothing falling then.

22     They were falling on Knin.  The earth shook when they were falling on

23     Knin that morning.  And in our village, it didn't.  It was some way from

24     the village that the shells fell.

25        Q.   Did you also say --

Page 10708

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 2             MS. FROLICH:  Sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ognjenovic, may I ask you to wait until the

 4     whole portion has been read by Ms. Frolich, because if you start already

 5     confirming that you agree, the interpreters cannot translate what two

 6     people say at the same time, so would you please wait until you have

 7     heard everything Ms. Frolich reads, and then give your answer.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  Please go on.

11             MS. FROLICH:

12        Q.   And did you also say that during Operation Storm shells fell

13     about eight kilometres from the village and they came from the direction

14     of Sibenik?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, they did.

16        Q.   Did you also state --

17        A.   Judging from where they fell, from their position, it was as if

18     they were on the corridor where -- or along the corridor for the

19     refugees.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now did you also state that on the 8th August 1995

21     when the two soldiers came to you in your village which is on page 4 of

22     your first statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor in

23     January 1999 --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Just a moment until I read the entire paragraph to you.  One of

Page 10709

 1     them said words to the effect that:  "No one will be held accountable for

 2     you."

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And that the soldier meant that although he and the other soldier

 5     meant no harm to you, others who may come would not be so kind?

 6        A.   Yes.  That's what he said and he told me not to stray away from

 7     my home.

 8        Q.   Did you also state that -- you refer to page 5 of your

 9     statement -- and you mention burning of your garage, house, and

10     haystacks.  And then you stated that you saw that soldiers set light to

11     at least ten other houses and stables in the village, so you believed

12     that it was an organised plan to burn everything.

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's what I said and that's what happened, for sure.

14     It wasn't set fire to -- there was a pistol there and I saw how it was

15     done over at my place and that's how it was done over there as well.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ognjenovic.

17             MS. FROLICH:  I have no further corrections to make so if these

18     statements could now be tendered into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If there are no objections then P989 and P990 are

20     admitted into evidence, the first one the 1999 statement of the witness,

21     and the second one the 2004 statement.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. FROLICH:  Just a moment, Mr. President.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MS. FROLICH:  If I could now read a 92 ter summary of the witness

Page 10710

 1     statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  Is the witness informed about this

 3     procedure?

 4             MS. FROLICH:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Because otherwise he might start confirming

 6     everything you read.

 7             Mr. Ognjenovic, Ms. Frolich will now read a summary of what we

 8     find in your written statement.  Please listen carefully.  There's no

 9     need to respond to what she is reading.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. FROLICH:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             At the time of Operation Storm, Mr. Ognjenovic lived with his

13     family in the village of Kakanj, Kistanje municipality.  He was in Kakanj

14     at the beginning of Operation Storm.  The shelling in the area caused

15     people to panic and to leave the village out of concern for their safety.

16     Most people did not take their belongings because they thought they would

17     return.  Immediately after Operation Storm, Croatian soldiers started

18     coming to the village.  Throughout the month of August 1995

19     Mr. Ognjenovic observed burning, destruction and looting of buildings and

20     property in the village of Kakanj conduct by Croatian soldiers.  He

21     complained to the police but was told that the police were unable to do

22     anything about soldiers stealing from Serbs.

23             On or about the 10th of August, 1995, Mr. Ognjenovic and his

24     neighbours located the body of Danica Saric in a well.  On the 18th of

25     August, 1995, Mr. Ognjenovic and his neighbour Radoslav Ognjenovic were

Page 10711

 1     wounded by two Croatian soldiers.  That same evening he found the bodies

 2     of Uros Ognjenovic and Uros Saric who appeared to have been killed in

 3     Uros Ognjenovic's yard.  The bodies remained in the same position for

 4     days before they were collected.  Mr. Ognjenovic could not find any

 5     police available to investigate the killings.

 6             Mr. Ognjenovic left Kakanj on the 26th of August 1995 and left

 7     the Krajina on the 15th September 1995 in a convoy.  He returned to

 8     Kakanj in 1997.

 9             Mr. President, the Prosecution would at this point move to tender

10     a number of documents, 13 documents from the bar table.  These are

11     documents that are related to the scheduled killing number 8 in the

12     Prosecution's indictment.  I can read out the 65 ter numbers, if there

13     are no objections or no questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that the Defence is aware of what

15     documents these are.

16             MR. MISETIC:  These are a true bar table submission, Your Honour,

17     because we also believe they should be in evidence and we therefore have

18     no objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, just for the record, Ms. Frolich, I

20     think it would be good to have them read by their numbers.

21             MS. FROLICH:  Mr. President, these are 65 ter number 5965.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Exhumation documents for Uros Saric and Uros

23     Ognjenovic.

24             MS. FROLICH:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, that would be number.

Page 10712

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P991.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Next one would be.

 3             MS. FROLICH:  65 ter 5966, record --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MS. FROLICH:  -- of the criminal report filed at the office of

 6     the military prosecutor Split.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P992.

 9             MS. FROLICH:  The next one would be 65 ter 5967 letter from

10     Srecko Saric to the municipal public prosecutor Zadar.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P993.

13             MS. FROLICH:  The next one would be 65 ter 5968, letter from

14     Srecko Saric to the Ministry of the Interior.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 994.

17             MS. FROLICH:  65 ter number 5969, letter from Srecko Saric to the

18     government of the republic of Croatia.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P995.

20             MS. FROLICH:  65 ter 5970, letter from county Prosecutor Sibenik

21     to the Zadar-Knin police administration crime department with attached

22     exhumation reports.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P996.

24             MS. FROLICH:  Next one is 65 ter 5971, letter from the office of

25     the county Prosecutor Sibenik to the Sibenik-Knin police administration

Page 10713

 1     crime department forwarding the criminal complaint of Srecko Saric.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, P997.

 3             MS. FROLICH:  Next one is 65 ter 5972, list of unresolved cases

 4     handed over from the Split military prosecutor to the county public

 5     prosecutor.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That is P998.

 7             MS. FROLICH:  Next one is 65 ter 5973, letter forwarding the

 8     criminal complaint to the military police Zadar.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That is number P999.

10             MS. FROLICH:  65 ter 5974, letter from Srecko Saric to the

11     municipal Court in Zadar.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That is P1000.

13             MS. FROLICH:  65 ter 5975, letter from the 72nd Military Police

14     Battalion Zadar Company to the office of the military prosecutor, Split.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That is P1001.

16             MS. FROLICH:  65 ter 5976, letter from the military prosecutor

17     Split to the Zadar-Knin police administration.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That is P1002.

19             MS. FROLICH:  Next one is 65 ter 5300, special report from the

20     Zadar-Knin police administration to the office of the military

21     prosecutor, Split.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That is P1003.

23             MS. FROLICH:  And 65 ter -- no, excuse me, that is all.  I have

24     no more documents.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, may I inquire?  Are we missing now

Page 10714

 1     P992?

 2             MS. FROLICH:  No.  That is 65 ter 5966.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the record of the criminal report filed at

 4     the office of the military prosecutor, Split.  65 ter 5966.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  So it is admitted into evidence.

 6             MS. FROLICH:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, no, as a matter of fact, we asked -- we have

 8     not --

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Oh, I'm sorry, that's right.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, yes, numbered, I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have numbered them.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

14             MS. FROLICH:  I move to tender all these documents into evidence,

15     yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is clear.  We have them now all numbered

17     on the record.  I take it that other Defence teams also have no

18     objection, which means that P991 up to and including P1003 are admitted

19     into evidence.  Yes.

20             MS. FROLICH:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The last document we found on your list is -- that

22     was 65 ter 5978 is disappeared.

23             MS. FROLICH:  I do not move to tender this document at this time,

24     Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 10715

 1             Then, please proceed.

 2             MS. FROLICH:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have some further

 3     questions for the witness.

 4        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, in your statement from 23rd and 24th January,

 5     1999, which is P989, I believe, now, that's tab 1 in B/C/S, Madam

 6     Registrar.

 7             On page 2 in B/C/S and in English for e-court you mentioned that

 8     the civilian population of Kakanj started leaving after they heard the

 9     shelling of Knin.

10             Could you tell us in more detail, why did they leave?

11        A.   They were leaving because they were -- they believed that they

12     would be coming over, that shells would be landing on the village.  I

13     don't know how it came to the point that it was said that they should

14     flee to the hills out of the villages.  I myself decided to stay behind.

15        Q.   Why did you stay, Mr. Ognjenovic?

16        A.   I stayed behind, listening to the radio, where it was said

17     whoever was not guilty need not leave.  I was listening to Tudjman's

18     statement that was heard over the radio every hour.

19             My wife was in the hospital.  I thought that she had died and I

20     was supposed to go to Knin that morning.  As the -- as Storm started, I

21     stayed home.  I decided that I should best stay where I was.

22        Q.   How many people of the people who stayed in the village, if

23     anyone, were part of the -- of the army?

24        A.   None of them did.  Three women stayed behind and six elderly

25     people.  Out of the six, one girl, she wasn't young, she was a spinster,

Page 10716

 1     was killed and the three who were killed, Vojin Saric and the other Saric

 2     who -- Uros, who was -- they were brothers.  One of them was born in 1920

 3     and the other in 1911.  They were elderly people, a bit out of their

 4     wits, and they were both killed.  Uros Ognjenovic was also killed.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Ognjenovic, on page 4 of the same statement, you

 6     mentioned two soldiers who came to you in the village on the 8th of

 7     August, 1995.  What, if anything, did they say to you, if you recall?

 8        A.   They told me, one of them asked me why I had stayed behind, I

 9     would have done better to have left with the others.  He said, I won't be

10     touching anyone but all sorts of -- all manner of things will happen.  I

11     cannot vouch for you.  Don't stray away from your homes.  Stay in your

12     homes.  Well, but I ended up being killed, or rather, wounded in my own

13     backyard.

14        Q.   To be clear, Mr. Ognjenovic, your wounding did not happen on that

15     same day.  Is that correct?

16        A.   Come again, please?

17        Q.   As you stated in your statement previously, the wounding that you

18     mention in your statement, when did it happen?

19        A.   On the 18th, on the 18th.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   When the two were killed and I was wounded.

22        Q.   Now you mentioned also that soldiers came to your house on the

23     9th of August, the following day, and burned your house.  Can you

24     describe the exchange -- in more detail the exchange between you on that

25     date.

Page 10717

 1        A.   You mean with them?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   With the ones who came over to set fire?  One of them had a rifle

 4     trained at me and I said, What is that rifle for?  I'm not putting up any

 5     resistance.  Put it away or else you will kill me, I will not be killing

 6     anyone, it's a disgrace, really, you were offending us and you were

 7     saying all of you Serbs have to be killed.

 8        Q.   If I can now turn to the events of the 18th of August, 1995.

 9     This is page 6 in B/C/S; and page 7 in English, for e-court and for Madam

10     Registrar.

11             You said that you were having dinner with other villagers, and

12     you heard a sound of some people walking to your house.  Could you

13     describe what happened then?

14        A.   They were shouting, Where are those nine people?  There was

15     somebody who said that there were nine of us there.  They were shouting,

16     Where are the nine people?  Come out.  Radoslav, and I did come out and

17     he trained his rifle at me.  I don't know what happened next.  I don't

18     know what hit me, what he hit me with.  I got in a coma and I was out,

19     like dead for a couple of hours.  And I don't know what happened next

20     until I finally came to.  I woke out of the coma, how shall I put it.

21        Q.   What were the two men who approached you wearing, if you

22     remember?

23        A.   You mean soldiers?  Well, they had the military gear, uniform,

24     rifles.  I don't know.  That was secondary, in my view.  I couldn't see

25     any of that.  All of it took place in the space of ten seconds.  They got

Page 10718

 1     into the yard and ... I don't know what they hit me with.  I had my skin

 2     burst here, I had a cut, and it was swollen.

 3        Q.   Do you remember what, if anything, they had on their heads?

 4        A.   What a soldier normally wears.  Those caps.  I don't know what

 5     they are.  It was of secondary importance to me, as I said.  The only

 6     thing I know was that he was shouting furiously through gritted teeth

 7     before even entering our yard, Come out so that I can kill you all.  I

 8     didn't think I was going to survive.

 9        Q.   Now, how far is your house from house of Uros Ognjenovic?

10        A.   Around 200 metres.  200 to 250.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know who, if anyone, from the Croatian

12     authorities approached you in relation to these deaths?

13        A.   Nobody did.  Those that were passing by asked me, Who hit you?  I

14     said, A soldier did.  I had my head bandaged so he could see that.

15        Q.   At any point after these killings occurred and today,

16     Mr. Ognjenovic, did anyone approach you in relation to these killings?

17     From the Croatian police or other investigative authorities.

18        A.   Nobody did.  Nobody did.  Six days after the two men were killed,

19     I was almost alone.  Almost alone.

20             MS. FROLICH:  Now, if we could show what was 65 ter 5970 and has

21     now been assigned a P number, P996, be shown on screen.  That's tab 17

22     and 18, Madam Registrar, page 04651409.  That's page 7 in e-court.

23        Q.   And if I could just read a paragraph on page 7 to you.  This is a

24     record of exhumation conducted on the 17th of April, 2000 on behalf of

25     the county Court in Sibenik in the Zadar town cemetery and it says:

Page 10719

 1     "Present during the exhumation were Cedo Ognjenovic from Kakanj.

 2     Personal identification number 2012930382111, brother of Uros Ognjenovic;

 3     and Mirko Ognjenovic from Kakanj, personal identification number

 4     1611921382106, brother-in-law of Uros Ognjenovic.

 5             Would you be able to con --

 6        A.   Yes, that is me.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now do you remember identifying Uros Ognjenovic as is

 8     stated in this document?

 9        A.   We did.

10        Q.   Now, this document mentions on the same page that the bodies

11     exhumed under the numbers 445 and 446 which were later identified as Uros

12     Saric and Uros Ognjenovic wore military green pants.  Why, to your

13     knowledge, would these two men have worn such clothing?

14        A.   Uros Saric had such trousers because his son was on the police

15     force.  He gave him a pair of police trousers that he no longer had any

16     use for.  He gave that pair of trousers to his father.

17             That was not true, that they had military trousers on.

18        Q.   How old were these two men when they were killed, Mr. Ognjenovic?

19        A.   Uros Saric was born in 1920, so he was 75; and Uros Ognjenovic

20     was born in 1928.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ognjenovic.

22             MS. FROLICH:  I have no further questions at this time for

23     Mr. Ognjenovic, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Frolich.

25             Mr. Ognjenovic, Mr. Misetic will now put questions to you.

Page 10720

 1     Mr. Misetic is Defence counsel for Mr. Gotovina.  You will see him now on

 2     your screen.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ognjenovic.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   Did you speak to -- do you recall speaking to the Office of the

 9     Prosecutor within the past week regarding your testimony today?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And do you recall telling the Office of the Prosecutor that --

12     when you were asked why people left the village of Kakanj, did you tell

13     the Office of the Prosecutor that:  "They left because villages were

14     being shelled and also because people were told to leave by the local

15     committee and that fuel would be distributed but that it was not."

16        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

17        Q.   Could you tell us, what was this local committee?  Who was in the

18     committee ...

19        A.   How should I know?  A couple of people who were there who were

20     not in the army.

21        Q.   And were they from your village?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Could you tell us their names?

24        A.   Dragan Saric.

25        Q.   Anyone else?

Page 10721

 1        A.   Well, I don't know who else was there.  I know that Dragan was.

 2        Q.   Did you speak to Dragan on the 4th of August?

 3        A.   No, I didn't even see him.  I didn't even see him.

 4        Q.   How did you hear that Dragan Saric told people to leave and said

 5     that fuel would be distributed?

 6        A.   He didn't say that; others were saying that.  A drum of fuel was

 7     found in his home and the army that got there took it away in the

 8     evening.  Others were then saying that it had been brought over there in

 9     order to be distributed to the villagers.  I don't know if this was

10     indeed the case.  This is how it was talked about.

11        Q.   Now, tell me a little bit about the army arriving in the evening.

12     When -- you mean the RSK army?

13        A.   Yes.  No, well, they came on a tank.  There was a tank going

14     ahead of them.  They were singing and they immediately set two or three

15     houses on fire, and in the beginning when they arrived they drank, there

16     was wine flowing and they sang and drank until midnight.  So they set the

17     barn -- the -- the barn, Dragan's barn on fire immediately.

18        Q.   Let me --

19             MS. FROLICH:  Mr. President, I just -- I think the witness --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think everyone noticed that there may be a matter

21     which we should further --

22             MR. MISETIC:  I'm trying, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- specify, that's clear.

24             Ms. Frolich, please proceed -- Mr. Misetic.

25             MR. MISETIC:

Page 10722

 1        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, I'm actually talking to you about your statement

 2     that -- actually you told the Office of the Prosecutor that people were

 3     told by the local committee that fuel would be distributed but it was

 4     not.  And now you say that there was a drum of fuel at Dragan Saric's

 5     home and that the army, when it got there, took it away in the evening.

 6             Which army took the drum of fuel?

 7        A.   The Croatian army, those people who came to the village first.

 8     They didn't take the drum.  They actually poured it out and they lit --

 9     and they set the house on fire.

10        Q.   Do you know why the fuel couldn't have been used the day before

11     by the villagers who were fleeing the village on the 4th?

12        A.   Because they didn't know.  No one knew of it.

13        Q.   Well, when Dragan Saric and these other people told the villagers

14     to leave and that fuel would be distributed, are you saying that -- that

15     Dragan Saric then never distributed the fuel to anyone?

16        A.   No.  Well, no one even knew about this.  It was only later that

17     there were conjectures that fuel was actually distributed.  But whether

18     it was or not, I don't know.  The only thing I know is that there was a

19     barrel of fool in the house, or actually it was in the garage.  Whether

20     it belonged to him or not ...

21        Q.   Now, Djevrska is a town that's -- that neighbours your town.  Is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know if the army of the Republika Serbian Krajina was

25     using private houses and some warehouses in Djevrska for military

Page 10723

 1     purposes?

 2        A.   Well, yes, this was a cooperative building, the building that was

 3     used by the army.

 4        Q.   And how far is Djevrska, approximately, in kilometres from your

 5     village?

 6        A.   Five kilometres.

 7        Q.   Could you tell by the direction and sound of the shelling on the

 8     4th whether the shells that were coming from Sibenik were in fact landing

 9     in Djevrska?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Was --

12             MS. FROLICH:  Mr. President, if the witness could be asked

13     whether he actually observed any shells falling in Djevrska instead of by

14     direction.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  In view of the answer -- in view of the question the

16     answer is not unambiguous, Mr. Misetic, could you tell whether.  Is the

17     answer yes, I can tell; or is the answer yes, they came; or they landed.

18             MR. MISETIC:

19        Q.   Did shells, to your knowledge, land in Djevrska on the 4th of

20     August?

21        A.   Yes, for sure.  But I did not see this.  I heard it.

22        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, there are villages --

23             Yes.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, could I ask who else is in the room

25     with the witness right now.

Page 10724

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we be informed, Ms. Alvarez, who is in the

 2     room, apart from the technician, you, and the witness.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There was no one else.  I'm informed by the

 5     registrar here in The Hague that he had a telephone conversation about

 6     channels, English channel, which caused some problems over there and that

 7     is -- so therefore what we saw and heard is for 99.9 per cent certain is

 8     the conversation between --

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- representatives of the registry.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  I even -- the last answer, if I

13     hear something, it could also mean several things.  Please proceed.

14             MR. MISETIC:

15        Q.   When you said, Mr. Ognjenovic, that you heard it, meaning when I

16     asked you did shells, to your knowledge, land in Djevrska on the 4th of

17     August, you said yes, for sure, but I did not see this.  I heard it.

18     What did you hear?

19        A.   I heard the shells falling and I was also told by the person who

20     was directing the fire, he said, I shelled so-and-so's house and I told

21     him, You shouldn't have done it, and later on, when he went hunting, he

22     told me how he was the one, the man who directed the fire, who shelled

23     this particular house and destroyed it.

24             I think that the army was in there.  It was a big building but

25     there was no one.  There was no military personnel there.  It was just a

Page 10725

 1     private home but it was destroyed.

 2        Q.   Is this a home in Djevrska that you're talking about?

 3        A.   Yes, in Djevrska.

 4        Q.   Okay.  In villages -- there are villages that neighbour your

 5     village, like Smrdelje [phoen], Varivode, Bratiskovci, Plastovo, Rupa,

 6     Laskovici.

 7             In any of those villages during or prior to Operation Storm was

 8     there a presence of the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, when -- you mentioned when you were being asked some

11     questions --

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  His answer did not get

13     translated into English.  At least verbally.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  But it appears -- it appears on the

15     screen as being translated into English, but I might have heard the

16     original answer which was yes there, I think.  And that would mean, yes,

17     this sufficiently corrects the --

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I see it on the screen, I just

19     didn't hear it in the headphones.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there is no dispute about what the witness

21     said.

22             Then please proceed.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   You mentioned in answer to a question by Ms. Frolich that you

25     thought that the shelling seemed to be on the corridor for refugees.  Do

Page 10726

 1     you recall saying that this morning?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Did the -- did the corridor pass near your village?

 4        A.   No, it didn't.  It was a bit farther away.  Farther away.  Some

 5     eight to ten kilometres away, shells fell there the whole day, the next

 6     day, throughout the day.

 7        Q.   I'm not asking you where the shells landed.  What I'm asking you

 8     is you know there was a corridor through which people left the so-called

 9     Krajina.  Correct?

10        A.   Well, I heard later on that this was the way they went, and from

11     my house you could see the shells landing.

12        Q.   This corridor -- I'm asking now about the corridor and not about

13     where the shells landed.  How close was the corridor to your village?

14        A.   About ten kilometres away.

15        Q.   Do you know if the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina, as it

16     was withdrawing, would have passed through or near your village on the

17     evening of the 4th or the morning of the 5th of August?

18        A.   Yes, they did pass.  They, too, did not know where they were

19     going.

20        Q.   Can you tell us, did you see these soldiers pass?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   How many soldiers did you see pass?

23        A.   I saw some of them, but I know that they passed there in trucks

24     because I was a bit away from the main road, so I couldn't really see

25     everything.

Page 10727

 1        Q.   Okay.  Did you hear tanks?

 2        A.   No, I did not.  There were no tanks in the Serbian army.  They

 3     didn't have them in our parts, in the Krajina.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I have two documents that I'd like

 6     to show here in Court.  I don't have them for the witness but I'm going

 7     to ask him a few questions on the basis of what is contained in the

 8     documents.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have -- are they uploaded in e-court

10     for our purposes.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, they are.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's see how to proceed.  Let's first have a

13     look at them.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

15             First, Mr. Registrar, if I could have 65 ter 4765 on the screen,

16     please.  And page -- and it -- I'm sorry, it has a P number.  It's P784;

17     I apologise.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then most likely it will be over there as well.  No,

19     it's P -- it's an old number.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, it's an old number.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  assigned today, yes.

22             MR. MISETIC:

23        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, I'm going to read to you from two documents and

24     then ask you a couple of questions on it.

25             The first is a report from United Nations Civilian Police that

Page 10728

 1     visited Kakanj on the 28th of August, 1995 and found that most of the

 2     houses in Kakanj were intact and that they did not see any people.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  And, Mr.  Registrar, if we could go to 65 ter 2133,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   This is a report that we have here in court, Mr. Ognjenovic.  It

 6     from is the United Nations Military Observers, dated 27 August 1995.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

 8     Third paragraph.

 9        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, I'm just going to read to you, this is a report

10     that was filed by some members of the United Nations that visited with

11     you, and here's what they wrote.  They said:  "On 21 August 1995 at 1135

12     in the morning, Valery Rublik and Dimitri Batiochenkov found two dead

13     bodies in Kakanj in the courtyard of house number 45.  It was stated by a

14     resident, Ognjenovic Mirko, aged 74, to the UNMOs that two HV soldiers

15     came to the village at 1800 on 18 August 1995."

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   "Beat him and killed these two people."

18             And then a sentence below it says that you -- it says:  "This man

19     also stated that two other Serbs had burnt his house at 1530 on 16

20     August 1995."

21             Now, my question is:  Do you recall telling members of the United

22     Nations that your house had been burned by two other Serbs and giving

23     them a specific date and time as to when that occurred?

24        A.   No.  It didn't happen that way.

25        Q.   Now that I've read this back to you, does it refresh your

Page 10729

 1     recollection that, in fact, your house was burned on the 16th of

 2     August at 1530 in the afternoon?

 3        A.   No.  It was not on the 16th; it was on the 8th when his house was

 4     set on fire, on the 8th.

 5        Q.   And do you recall telling --

 6        A.   The 8th or the 9th, I'm not sure.

 7        Q.   Do you recall telling these UN Military Observers that two Serbs

 8     had burnt your house down?

 9             MS. FROLICH:  Mr. President.

10        A.   No, I'm sure I didn't say that.

11             MS. FROLICH:  This question was already asked before.  I just

12     wanted to put that on the record, and the witness answered the question.

13             MR. MISETIC:  I think he is answered it, Your Honour.  I'm just

14     going to tender the exhibit now anyway.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you just told us that this was -- was it

16     this one that was already in evidence?

17             MR. MISETIC:  No, it was the previous one.  That was --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The previous one.

19             MR. MISETIC:  -- P784.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then this one needs a number.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D872.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D872 is admitted into evidence.

25             Now, about question asked, question answered, the earlier

Page 10730

 1     question was -- contained several elements, date, persons, and if you get

 2     a confirmation that it went in a different way, it could be about the

 3     date, about perpetrators so to that extent there was a good reason to

 4     further explore that matter, Ms. Frolich.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Ognjenovic, is it true to say that when the Croatian

 8     army passed through Kakanj the first time, that Croatian soldiers did not

 9     harm anyone?

10        A.   They didn't.

11        Q.   Is it true --

12        A.   They didn't even see anyone.  They didn't see any civilians or

13     any military.

14        Q.   Is it true to say that when the Croatian army passed through

15     Kakanj for the first time on the 5th of August that they did not search

16     any houses?

17        A.   They didn't.  They only set three or four houses on fire, right

18     away, in the evening.

19        Q.   Well, is it possible that you're mistaken and that in fact the

20     Croatian army only set one haystack on fire, maybe just in order to

21     signal the place where they had reached?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for sure they set on fire the

24     hay and the house, right at the beginning of the village.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, this again is a composite question,

Page 10731

 1     what was done and for what purpose, and I would like you --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I'll break it out.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have a young academic before you, that might

 4     be different.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. MISETIC:

 7        Q.   Let me ask it a different way, Mr. Ognjenovic.  Is it possible

 8     that you're mistaken and that instead of burning houses on the 5th of

 9     August, the only thing that was burned by the Croatian army on the 5th of

10     August was a single haystack?

11        A.   There were more than one but they set on fire at the very -- on

12     the very edge of the village, they set on fire a house and some hay.

13        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, do you know if Croatian police units were

14     established in the neighbouring village of Bratiskovci two or three days

15     after the end of Operation Storm?

16        A.   I suppose so but I did not see them.  I was not -- I didn't go to

17     Bratiskovci but ...

18        Q.   Well, in your statement, at page 5 of your 1999 statement you

19     said to the Prosecution that on three or four occasions - and this is now

20     at the fourth full paragraph:  "On three or four occasions police in blue

21     uniforms came to the village.  On these uniform the was the word policija

22     on the sleeves.  I think they were --

23        A.   Yes, yes.  And they brought for us, and this is what I said,

24     that's how it happened.  This was later on on the 6th or the 7th.

25        Q.   You were about to say that they brought you something.  What did

Page 10732

 1     they bring you?

 2        A.   They brought bread for us, salami, stuff like that.

 3        Q.   You said in your statement you think they were the civilian

 4     police.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   I think so, but they did not say who they were, whether they were

 6     the civilian police or the military police.  I think they were the

 7     civilian police.

 8        Q.   You also say in your statement:  "When the police were in the

 9     village, the soldiers did not come stealing and looting."

10             Do you remember that?

11        A.   They didn't.  There was no looting.  This happened later.

12        Q.   Did you ever come to any understanding at that time as to why

13     people you believed to be soldiers weren't looting when the police was in

14     the village?

15        A.   I don't know why.  I guess they didn't let them, or something

16     like that.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President -- or, Mr.  Registrar, I -- keeping

18     in mind the procedure that we have in place about confronting witnesses

19     with other statements of other witnesses I have taken him through and put

20     to him the matters in the statement and now I'd like to confront him with

21     the statement of another witness and ask him about it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course, not having --

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not knowing what witness statement you're talking

25     about I can't verify, but you announce that in your view you've

Page 10733

 1     covered --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  --  the substance of other witness statement without

 4     putting it to the witness and that you're now moving to put it to the

 5     witness.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  I have hard copy for the Bench because we

 7     didn't it uploaded it into e-court since we won't be tendering the

 8     statement into evidence.  This is the statement of Rajko Gajica.

 9        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, you know who Rajko Gajica is.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes, I know.

11        Q.   And he was a villager with you during the month of August 1995.

12     Is that right?

13        A.   It is.

14        Q.   Now, let me just tell you what Mr. Gajica told the Office of the

15     Prosecutor.  This is on page 2 of his statement, second paragraph from

16     the bottom.

17        A.   I don't know what he said, but Rajko was the one who washed my

18     wound out and dressed it, and then he went to Bratiskovci looking for

19     protection and he was taken away to Sibenik.

20             On the next day, he was --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure what the witness

22     said.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ognjenovic, Mr. Misetic will tell you about the

24     statement given by Mr. Gajica.  But before he does so, could you tell us

25     what you said when you said, On the next day, he was ...

Page 10734

 1             That was the next day after he was taken away to Sibenik.  Could

 2     you tell us what you then said?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He went to Bratiskovci.  I think

 4     the police was down there and he went there seeking protection.  They

 5     said they could not -- we cannot protect you but we can take to you

 6     Sibenik, and that's what they did.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Just let me ask you one additional question before I go into this

11     statement.

12             Mr. Ognjenovic, do you recall telling Mr. Gajica when you came to

13     his house on the evening of the 18th after you had been struck by these

14     two individuals, did you tell him that it was two people who did this to

15     you, one of whom was a soldier, and that the other one was in civilian

16     clothes?

17        A.   No.  He was not in civilian clothes.  I didn't say that, nor was

18     he in civilian clothes.  Both of them were in military clothes.  I came

19     to Rajko's as wounded as I was and he said that he heard them walk past

20     because they were on foot.  He also said that he had heard shooting over

21     at our place.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Just for the Court's reference, I won't put it to

23     him specifically, but it's page 3, second paragraph from the bottom.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. MISETIC:

Page 10735

 1        Q.   Let me also read a portion of Mr. Gajica's statement to you.

 2             Mr. Gajica told the Office of the Prosecutor on page 2, second

 3     paragraph from the bottom, that:  "On the 5th of August, 1995, about

 4     six -- at about 6.00 to 7.00 p.m., the regular Croatian army soldiers

 5     entered Kakanj.  On that day, the Croatian soldiers did not harm anybody.

 6     They have just set a haystack on fire in the end of the village, maybe

 7     just in order to signal the place which they reached.  The military

 8     column moving on foot and by trucks passed through Kakanj and four more

 9     villages.  On that evening, the soldiers did not search the houses, were

10     not threatening the villages."

11             Now, Mr. Ognjenovic, is it in fact true that when the Croatian

12     army arrived on the 5th of August that they did not harm -- let me --

13     that they did not set any houses on fire and in fact were just passing

14     through the village?

15        A.   But they did.  They set both the house and the haystack on fire.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, this might be a good time for a break,

17     so ...

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you give us an indication on how much

19     time would you need after the break?

20             MR. MISETIC:  I would hope I will be done within half an hour,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Ognjenovic, we'll take a break and we'll resume at 11.00, and

24     I'm quite confident that we'll finish this morning.

25             We resume at 11.00.

Page 10736

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ognjenovic, we'll continue.

 4             Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, referring to page 5 of your 1999 statement, you

 7     said that on most of the times when they were looting, they were in

 8     civilian cars.

 9             Is that accurate?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   Yes, it is.  There were both women and men who looted everything

13     they could find.

14        Q.   Turning to the death of Danica Saric.  Now, when you -- it's

15     correct that you assisted in removing the body from the well.  Is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   And you did not check to see if there were there any wounds or

19     injuries on the body.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you some questions about --

22        A.   There was nothing.  We assumed that it was she herself who threw

23     herself there.

24        Q.   Can you explain for the Court why you assumed that she threw

25     herself into the well?

Page 10737

 1        A.   I don't know.  She was fearful of everything, being as she was a

 2     spinster, a virgin, and she must have been afraid that the army would

 3     have man-handled her.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I please have 1D00-0450.

 6             Madam Registrar in Zagreb, this is tab 3.  I don't think it's

 7     necessary that the witness review it, however.

 8        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, do you recall speaking to members of the Croatian

 9     police roughly in May of 2004, where you talked to the police about the

10     death of Danica Saric?

11        A.   I don't know exactly.  Some persons did come, but I don't know

12     what happened.

13        Q.   Well, do you remember speaking to any police officers about the

14     death of Danica Saric?

15        A.   I don't remember that.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  If we can scroll down on this document,

17     please, last paragraph on that page.

18        Q.   Do you recall -- is it true when the deceased Uros Ognjenovic and

19     Rajko Gajica changed her clothes for the burial they didn't see -- notice

20     any type of wounds or injuries while on her -- injuries on her body while

21     dressing her?

22        A.   There was nothing.  There were none.  But we didn't change her

23     clothes.  We weren't able to.  She was all bloated from being in the

24     water.

25        Q.   Do you recall perhaps telling anyone from the Croatian police

Page 10738

 1     that Danica was very scared of the military police Operation Storm.  Do

 2     you remember that?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And do you know if -- or do you recall ever telling the police

 5     that Danica suffered from a mild nervous illness?

 6        A.   Yes, for sure.

 7        Q.   And is that a true statement, that she suffered from a mild

 8     nervous illness?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   Do you recall her ever saying, It would be better if they killed

11     me than them doing something to me?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.

13        Q.   Do you recall telling the police that you didn't see any armed

14     soldiers or civilians prior to her death and that they -- they only

15     started to arrive in Kakanj after the death -- the fatal wounding of

16     Danica Saric?

17        A.   Yes --

18        Q.   It --

19        A.    -- remember that.

20        Q.   Is it, to the best of your recollection, true that you didn't see

21     any armed soldiers or civilians in Kakanj until after the death of Danica

22     Saric?

23        A.   Yes, that's true, I didn't.  But for the two men I referred to

24     earlier on who told me that I would have done better had I left, too,

25     because all manner of things would happen.  Except for the two of them.

Page 10739

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, I tender into evidence 1D00-0450.

 2             MS. FROLICH:  No objection, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This is -- there are no objections.  May I

 4     take it it is not tendered under Rule 92 ter but just as an exhibit.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  An exhibit, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D873.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D873 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Ognjenovic, prior to her death if Danica ever

11     told anyone that she was going to drown herself?

12        A.   She didn't tell anyone.  She said that she was very frightened,

13     easily scared, and that she didn't know what would become of her.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D00-0454, please,

16     I'm just going to read an excerpt of this, and there's no need to show it

17     to the witness in Zagreb.  And the rest of the documents, Your Honour, I

18     will bar table as they are part of a broader -- the broader file on this

19     incident that we've obtained, some of which was put in by the Prosecution

20     on direct.

21             If we could go to page 3 of this document, please.

22        Q.   Now, this is an Official Note taken in 2004 of Rajko Gajica.  And

23     in the third paragraph it says, towards -- towards the middle:  "Danica

24     got scared and said to Uros Saric, 'here they come, they're burning

25     across the village, I'm going to throw myself in the well.'  The day

Page 10740

 1     before, Danica and Uros Saric were harassed by uniformed persons

 2     unfamiliar to them and Danica was probably scared because of that and

 3     told him she was going to drown herself.  He tried to persuade her not

 4     and Danica left to his tavern afterwards."

 5             Now, did Uros Saric perhaps ever tell you that Danica told him

 6     that she was scared and she was going to drown herself in the well?

 7             Mr. Ognjenovic, I don't know if you heard me.  My question was:

 8     Do you recall --

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  Uros did say that.  Uros did say that, that she had

10     told him, that Danica had told him that she didn't know what to do, that

11     she was scared and that she would ...

12        Q.   That she would what, Mr. Ognjenovic?

13        A.   I don't understand.

14        Q.   You said that Uros said that she said -- that she told him that

15     she didn't know what to do and that she was scared and that she would ...

16     and then we didn't get the rest of the sentence.  What did you say that

17     Danica told --

18        A.   She didn't say that she was going to drown herself but that she

19     didn't know what to do.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, I tender the entire document into

22     evidence.

23             MS. FROLICH:  No objection, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D874, Your Honours.

Page 10741

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D874 is admitted into evidence.  Again, this is a --

 2     this is also an Official Note --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, correct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it is not a statement taken for the purpose of

 5     these proceedings.  Therefore it is not a 92 ter admission.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Correct.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Ognjenovic, do you recall being interviewed by the --

10             MR. MISETIC:  Just one moment, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who talked to me?

12             MR. MISETIC:  Just one moment.

13             And if we could now in D784, go to page 6 of, please, of that

14     document.  D874, I'm sorry, I apologise.

15        Q.   Now, with regard to the events that took place on the 18th of

16     August, 1995, do you recall being interviewed by a Croatian police

17     officer on the 16th of May, 2000?

18        A.   I do.

19             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could now go to page 9 of this document.

20        Q.   Now, do you recall in July 2000 that the police conducted an

21     interview with you and Radoslav Ognjenovic and that you were shown a

22     series of pictures to see if you could identify anyone who may have been

23     involved in the incident on the 18th of August, 1995?  Do you remember

24     being shown pictures of people who may have done this to you?

25        A.   I do remember, yes.

Page 10742

 1        Q.   And do you recall whether you were able to pick anyone out of

 2     those photos as the person who was involved in the incident on the 18th

 3     of August, 1995?

 4        A.   No.  We didn't say that we knew anyone.  There was an individual

 5     by the name of Mladen.  When he trained the rifle at me, the other one

 6     shouted, No, Mladjo, do not shoot.  And then a police officer brought a

 7     photograph number 9, an individual by the name of Mladen was under number

 8     9 but I had no idea who that person was.

 9        Q.   When you say Mladen, could it have been Nedjelko and not Mladen

10     as the name?

11        A.   Nedjelko, right, Nedjelko, yes, yes.  I confused it to -- yes,

12     Nedjelko; Nedjo, do not shoot.

13        Q.   And this incident took place on the 18th of August.  Do you --

14     just one second.  Now, you say in your statement at page 8 that Radoslav

15     told you that Rajko Gajica had gone to Bratiskovci to find the police and

16     report about the dead bodies.  Do you know if in fact Rajko Gajica the

17     next day went to --

18        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

19        Q.   So the very next day this incident was reported to the civilian

20     police.  Is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. MISETIC:  If I could have on the screen, please, P992.  It's

24     the first paragraph in the English, if we could scroll down, please.  If

25     we could go to the next page, please, in the English.

Page 10743

 1        Q.   In this -- there was a complaint filed on the 28th of August,

 2     1995 by the son of Uros Saric.  And in the complaint, he writes, six

 3     lines in, in the English version:  "As far as I am aware -- " no, I'm

 4     sorry.

 5             Five lines down.  He writes in his complaint that:  "Uros Saric

 6     and Uros Ognjenovic were killed.  Radoslav Ognjenovic and Mirko

 7     Ognjenovic were injured by three persons, two of whom were uniformed.

 8             Do you know, is it possible, Mr. Ognjenovic, that this incident

 9     involved not two individuals but three individuals, one of whom was a

10     civilian?

11        A.   No.  Only Uros was in civilian clothes.  Nobody else, of those

12     who came over to my place.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

15             Mr. Ognjenovic, thank you very much for answering my questions.

16             I do have two bar table submissions to make, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be if we followed the same

18     procedure --

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that you read out their numbers --

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that Mr. Registrar will assign exhibit numbers to

23     them.

24             MR. MISETIC:  This would be -- actually I think it's three bar

25     table submissions.  1D00-0454, this is from the police file on the

Page 10744

 1     murders of -- it's in already.  I'm sorry.  That is in as D874.

 2             So 1D00-0445, this is a Republic of Croatia MUP criminal report

 3     regarding the murder of Vojin Saric.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D875.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Next is a record of exhumation of Danica Saric, the

 7     women in the well, and it is 1D00-0441.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, that would be.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D876, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection?  Yes, no, please proceed.

11             MS. FROLICH:  Sorry, no objections, Your Honour.

12             MR. MISETIC:  And the last one is 1D00-0472, it is a Republic of

13     Croatia MUP special report on the murders in this case.

14             MS. FROLICH:  I believe this is one of the documents included in

15     our bar table submission, if I'm not mistaken.  Therefore if that can be

16     double-checked.

17             We have no objection, of course.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's check.

19             MR. MISETIC:  If Ms. Frolich can tell us which P number it is.

20             MS. FROLICH:  Just a moment.

21             I believe that is 65 ter 5300 which became P1003.  I believe we

22     are talking about the same document.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I have one page as P1003.  Is that correct?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MS. FROLICH:  Yes.

Page 10745

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  5300 became P1003, special report from the

 2     Zadar-Knin police administration to the office of the military

 3     prosecutor, Split.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  My submission, Your Honour, has seven pages total

 5     out of the file.  So the cover -- the first pages is -- may be identical.

 6     The rest, I think we have additional pages in our submission.

 7             MS. FROLICH:  Well, what we received from you is also one page

 8     and that is the cover page.  I'm not sure what other documents you would

 9     be referring to.  Maybe they are under other Defence numbers.

10             MR. MISETIC:  No, I think ... we'll look in e-court right now and

11     see.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P1003 is indeed a one-page document.

13             MR. MISETIC:  And our submission in e-court, Your Honour, is

14     seven pages long.  So it may be a printing error on ...

15             MS. FROLICH:  I apologise.  If this exhibit also includes the

16     document from the 20th February 1996.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

18             MS. FROLICH:  And the criminal report record on the 28th August.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

20             MS. FROLICH:  These two documents I believe are also part of our

21     bar table submission, Mr. President, these two documents, and they are --

22     they are P1002 --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the 20th of February, 1996 document.

24             MS. FROLICH:  Yes.  And P992 respectfully, Mr. President, the

25     complaint from 28th of August 1995.

Page 10746

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would in total make the same number of

 2     pages as Mr. Misetic was tendering?

 3             Could we -- could the parties just verify during the next break

 4     whether there's anything new in what Mr. Misetic wants to tender.  It's

 5     from the bar table anyhow, so therefore -- which would mean -- is this --

 6     was this the last one, Mr. Misetic?

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That means that no number has yet been assigned to

 9     this.  We'll leave that for -- until after the break.  D875 and D876 are

10     admitted into evidence.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

12             No further questions.

13             I'm looking at the other Defence teamS.

14             Mr. Kay, no questions.

15             MR. KAY:  No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

19             Ms. Frolich, is there any need for re-examination?

20             MS. FROLICH:  Just two brief questions, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Mr. Ognjenovic, Ms. Frolich will put some further questions to

23     you.

24                           Re-examination by Ms. Frolich:

25        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, earlier when asked about setting haystacks, army

Page 10747

 1     setting haystacks on fire, you mentioned that there was also a house set

 2     on fire on the 5th of August, 1995.  That's page 32, line 15.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And can you tell us whose house was this that was set on fire?

 5        A.   It was the house of Nikola Ognjenovic and Marko Ognjenovic, two

 6     houses.

 7        Q.   Do you mean to say that two houses were in fact set on fire on

 8     that day, Mr. Ognjenovic?

 9        A.   Yes.  They were one next to the other.

10        Q.   And who were these two persons that you just named?

11        A.   What do you mean, who were they?  Nikola Ognjenovic and Marko

12     Ognjenovic's houses.

13        Q.   What was their occupation; do you know?

14        A.   You mean the house owners?

15        Q.   Were these people civilians or were they members of the army,

16     Mr. Ognjenovic?

17        A.   They were civilians.

18        Q.   Were they present in the village or were they gone at the time

19     that their houses were set on fire?

20        A.   They had left.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now another question is when you spoke about a person

22     directing fire, shelling fire, on page 26, line 23 of the transcript you

23     said:  "I heard the shelling falling and I was also told by the person

24     who was directing the fire, he said, I shelled so-and-so's house and I

25     told him, You shouldn't have done it, and later on, when he went hunting

Page 10748

 1     he told me how he was the one, the man who directed the fire who shelled

 2     this particular house and destroyed it."

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   When was this, Mr. Ognjenovic?  When?

 5        A.   When the shelling was?

 6        Q.   No.  When were you told by this person?

 7        A.   Later on, a year later.

 8        Q.   And who was this person?

 9        A.   He was Pulic, I can't recall his first name.  I know his father's

10     name is Jure, so he was Jure Pulic's son.  He told me.  He said that he

11     was the one who directed or guided the fire and he figured that there

12     were troops in the house so he directed the fire, the shells to shell

13     that house.

14        Q.   What was his nationality?  Yes.

15        A.   The man who was guiding the fire?  A Croat.

16        Q.   Thank you Mr. Ognjenovic.

17             MS. FROLICH:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ognjenovic, I might have a few questions for

22     you.  You told us about the Croatian army coming into the village.  I

23     think that was on the 5th of August, where you said that two houses and a

24     haystack had been put on fire.

25             Now, how --

Page 10749

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell me, the army, Croatian army coming in

 3     the village, could you give me an indication as to how many approximately

 4     were there?  And I'm --

 5        A.   That, I wouldn't know.  I don't know how many there were.  I only

 6     heard about it.  I was in hiding in the plumb orchard next to my house.

 7     I only heard the noise, their voices and their song, because they were

 8     singing.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you seen any vehicles they were using?

10        A.   No, I didn't see anything.  I could only hear a tank leading and

11     then there were people coming after the tank.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  They were on foot or ...

13        A.   They were on trucks.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  They were on trucks.

15        A.   They were driving slowly through the village.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you observed that yourself; you did see

17     these trucks?

18        A.   Yes, of course.  But it was dark, it was night-time, so I could

19     hear them coming.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you gain any impression about how many

21     approximately were there, how many of these trucks?

22        A.   I wouldn't know.  I have no idea how many there were nor what

23     went on.  There were two stores in the village, shops.  They were open.

24     The doors had been broken down.  That was the next day.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would now like to move to what is in your

Page 10750

 1     statement about what happened on the 8th of August; that is, where you

 2     said two soldiers came up to you.  They asked you where you were going.

 3     You said, I'm going to feed my pigs.  You remember these soldiers who

 4     told you that they did not wish to harm you in any way but that others

 5     might come who would not be that kind.

 6             Now, when these two soldiers came to you --

 7        A.   Yes.  He said to me ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, what I'd like to know is, when these two

 9     soldiers came to you, were they the only soldiers in the village, were

10     they part of a larger company, or were these just two individual

11     soldiers?

12        A.   There were two soldiers.  There were only two soldiers.  They

13     asked for my car keys.  I said I didn't have them.  Then they asked, What

14     are you doing?  And I said, I'm feeding my pigs.  And they said, Well,

15     leave those pigs alone and look after yourself.  That's what they said to

16     me.  Because you can expect anything to happen.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So at that moment you did not observe any other

18     soldiers around in your village.  You just saw the two.

19        A.   Only those two.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember how they came.  Were they in a car

21     or were they on foot?

22        A.   They came by car.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember what kind of car that was?  Was that

24     a military vehicle, was that a civilian vehicle, was it ...

25        A.   I don't really know.  I can't remember what their plates were,

Page 10751

 1     nor anything else.  I didn't -- I wasn't even looking at them.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But you did see that car?

 3        A.   They got out of the car and came up to me.  Yes, I did see it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember the colour of that car?

 5        A.   I think it was white.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, similar questions for what happened on the 9th

 7     of August, the day after that.  That is the event where you said the

 8     soldiers shot your dog.

 9             Let's start with the beginning.  You said in your statement:  "I

10     heard a vehicle stop nearby."

11             Did these soldiers come in that vehicle?

12        A.   No, no.  They came in their own vehicle.  It was a military

13     vehicle.  And he shot the dog which was standing next to my leg.  And

14     then they left.  They were setting my house on fire and the other one was

15     pointing his gun at me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And they came in a military vehicle.  You have

17     observed that vehicle yourself.

18        A.   Well, what do you mean observe?  I wasn't observing.  I was in

19     the yard.  They left their car outside and he set my house on fire, my

20     stable, the haystacks, everything.  And then I rushed because I wanted to

21     take the cultivator, the motor cultivator out of the garage, and they

22     said, Come on, move on because you will get killed.  And that's what he

23     said, so I took it and --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  When I asked you whether you observed the vehicle, I

25     wanted to know whether you saw with your own eyes this vehicle to be a

Page 10752

 1     military vehicle.

 2        A.   Yes, it was a military vehicle, because it was grey, so it's sure

 3     that it was a military vehicle.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, at that point in time, when your house

 5     was set on fire, did you see any other military people or military

 6     vehicles apart from the ones who came to you in the village?

 7        A.   No, I didn't.  Because my house was at the end of the village.  I

 8     was at the end of the village.  And they set about ten houses on fire on

 9     that day.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us, what's the total number of

11     houses in your village?

12        A.   Well, about 100 or so, I think.  This was a small hamlet.  It

13     wasn't a real village, just a hamlet.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, now, in total, so during these days both

15     on the 5th and the 9th, how many houses finally ended up to be burned?

16     You told us ten on the 9th; two on the 5th.

17        A.   Then it was ten houses.  Later on, they set other houses on fire.

18     As far as I'm concerned, in fact, there weren't -- there were only ten

19     houses that were set on fire then.  But later on, more of them were set

20     on fire, about half of them.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Does this mean that at the end half of the

22     village was burned, houses were burned?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You also told us in your statement that:  "The

25     soldiers came to the village most days and they were looting anything

Page 10753

 1     they could find from the houses."

 2             Were these -- and you were talking about first --

 3        A.   Yes.  Both soldiers and civilians.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they come as individuals, one or two, perhaps

 5     three, or did they come in groups of more persons?

 6        A.   They came in ones and twos, two or three, and they carried stuff

 7     away, each for their own -- for themselves.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If they were carrying stuff away, as you told

 9     us, what kind of vehicles were they using?

10        A.   Civilian vehicles.  Most of them were civilian vehicles.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers, Mr. Ognjenovic.  We'll

12     see whether there are further questions for you.  Mr. Misetic may have

13     one or more questions for you.

14                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

15        Q.   Mr. Ognjenovic, I just wanted to clarify something that may not

16     have appeared on the transcript.  You said that ten houses were burned

17     and then after you left you learned that more houses had been burned.  Is

18     that correct?

19        A.   That's right.

20        Q.   So outside of these ten houses you didn't actually -- you weren't

21     actually there in the village when any other houses other than these ten

22     were burned.  Correct?

23        A.   Yes, I wasn't there.  I was in Knin.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you very much, Mr. Ognjenovic.

25             MR. MISETIC:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

Page 10754

 1             MS. FROLICH:  No further questions, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Ognjenovic, this concludes your testimony.

 3     I would like to thank you very much for coming to Zagreb and for

 4     answering all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

 5     the Bench, and I hope that you will arrive safely home again today, and

 6     it will be soon your birthday.  I wish you health --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- for the future.

 9             We --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We can -- we can conclude the videolink.

12                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There are a few procedural issues left.  I'd like to

14     briefly deal with them.

15             First is the Chamber has considered the request for a videolink

16     for Witness 17, which is, I think, next week -- no, not next week but the

17     Wednesday when we return after the recess.  Is that ... 29th?

18             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has decided that it will grant the

20     videolink.  There were no objections and the reasons will follow in the

21     usual way in oral decision.

22             Next issue I'd like to raise is the agreement that has been

23     reached by the parties on the -- on the map issue, what are

24     administrative borders how was it before Operation Storm, how was it

25     after Operation Storm.

Page 10755

 1             In our first -- in the first report, in an e-mail sent to the

 2     Chamber, reference was made to maps which are in the binder of maps the

 3     Chamber has been provided with but which are not in evidence.  So,

 4     therefore, that e-mail, the text of that e-mail without these maps being

 5     in evidence might not resolve the matter entirely but we have meanwhile

 6     received another e-mail in which a map is apparently attached.

 7             I have not yet looked at that map.  Everyone may be aware that I

 8     have some allergies for some kind type of maps that is projected maps

 9     or -- we'll have a look at that map.

10             What the Chamber would like to have everything clear on the

11     record which might be best done by a filing, perhaps a joint filing with

12     the parties in which they set out the agreement with an attached map, if

13     the Chamber would have difficulties with the map, again I have not looked

14     at it yet, we will let you know, but otherwise the parties are invited to

15     prepare a joint filing in which the matters they agreed upon are set out

16     and the map being attached.

17             Mr. Misetic.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, just for clarification, the map

19     that we e-mailed around last night, actually that Mr. Margetts e-mailed

20     around last night is a map that is not part of the binder of maps that

21     you were looking at.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no.  The previous e-mails made reference to

23     maps who are in that binder of maps.  The new one is attached and I did

24     understand that that's a different map.  But I just have not yet looked

25     at it.

Page 10756

 1             MR. MISETIC:  I just want to be sure that all the parties

 2     understand the map that you are looking for, what we did was -- I should

 3     say the Prosecution created a map of the municipalities that are the

 4     subject of the indictment.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and what it is called in the e-mail, Croatian

 6     municipalities, 1992, and then, underscore, new indictment area, jpg.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I open it for a second and see that it needs.  Yes.

 9     That is ...

10             Yes, it is a map with -- at the top it reads case IT-06-90-PT,

11     Gotovina, et al, indictment, municipalities and then a legend, settlement

12     according to the 1991 census and it distinguishes between indictment

13     municipalities in grey and other municipalities in white.

14             That's the map --

15             MR. MISETIC:  That is the map, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you're referring to.  Perhaps that could be -- I

17     think the easier way to do it is to set out the agreement, including

18     temporal aspects, and then attach the map and have this filed.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have a -- there's another matter in relation

21     with the last witness.

22             The Prosecution has filed a report on the 19th of May of this

23     year on protective measures for witnesses -- Witness 11 and Witness 42.

24     The reason why the 92 quater statement of Witness 42 was protected was

25     because we did not know what to expect in relation to Witness 41.  Now

Page 10757

 1     this is clear, meanwhile.  Therefore, I would like to hear from the

 2     Prosecution whether there is any further objection against the evidence

 3     of Witness 42 to become public.

 4             MS. FROLICH:  No, Mr. President.  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the statement of Witness 42, which was admitted

 6     pursuant to Rule 92 quater, will be a public document.  It is the

 7     document that was admitted by a decision on admission of two witnesses,

 8     pursuant to Rule 92 quater, which was 24th of April, 2008, and you'll

 9     find that in paragraph 10.

10             So it's not a decision on the witness -- on Witness 42, it's just

11     about the statement of Witness 42, which will from now on be a public

12     document.

13             Then I have a few decision to deliver.

14             First decision being a decision on the admission of D717, which

15     is currently MFIed.

16             On the 25th of July during the cross-examination of Witness

17     Roland Dangerfield, at transcript page 7285 and 7286, the Defence

18     presented the witness with an article published in the Croatian press in

19     February 2007 which contained an interview with the then Russian

20     ambassador to Croatia.  The interview was marked for identification as

21     D717.  In the interview, the ambassador made reference to the Z-4 plan

22     and the reaction of the authorities in Knin to this plan.  The Defence

23     sought to admit this article into evidence, submitting that it is

24     relevant because it refers to the peace negotiations between Krajina

25     officials and representatives of the Croatian government and Mr. Akashi's

Page 10758

 1     visit to Knin, both related to the Z-4 plan.

 2             The Prosecution objected to the admission of this article,

 3     submitting that the Defence had failed to lay the proper foundation for

 4     its admission, as the witness was unable to comment on the article.  Only

 5     a portion of this article, the original of which is in B/C/S, has been

 6     translated into English.  It is on the basis of this partial translation

 7     that the Chamber has decided upon the admission of D717.

 8             D717 contains information about the presentation of the Z-4 plan

 9     to Milan Martic and his refusal to receive the plan.  Neither the

10     existence of the Z-4 plan nor Martic's reaction to this plan seems to be

11     a contested issue in this case.  D717 does not contradict evidence that

12     the Chamber has already heard from other witnesses concerning this plan,

13     including Peter Galbraith, whose name is mentioned in the interview.  The

14     Chamber does not find, therefore, that D717 sufficiently adds to the

15     evidence already on the record in these proceedings to make it fit for

16     admission.

17             On the basis of the foregoing, the Chamber decides not to admit

18     D717 into evidence and instructs the registrar to change its status in

19     e-court accordingly.

20             And this concludes the Chamber's decision on the admission of

21     D717.

22             The next decision to be delivered is a decision on the admission

23     into evidence of two documents, marked for identification P701 and P704.

24             On the 21st of July 2008 during the testimony of witness Alun

25     Roberts, the Prosecution tendered a Globus article from the 11th of

Page 10759

 1     August, 1995 as P701, together with an accompanying map as P704, which

 2     can be found at transcript page 6815.

 3             On the 21st of July, the Gotovina Defence objected to the

 4     announced tendering of these documents in paragraph 4 of its response to

 5     the Prosecution's submission of Alun Roberts' 92 ter statement and

 6     associated exhibits.  The Gotovina Defence alleged that the witness did

 7     not establish a foundation for the tendering of these items.

 8             The article gives detailed information, inter alia, of the

 9     Croatian army's advancement in Operation Storm, the five corps and

10     Military Districts involved and their commanders by name, which is

11     further illustrated by the map.  These facts are material to the

12     background issues of this case and are therefore relevant.  The author of

13     the article mentions Croatian generals as his sources but falls short of

14     naming names.

15             Furthermore, Alun Roberts' witness statement of the 31st of

16     July 1998 corroborates parts of the article with firsthand information

17     that General Gotovina and Colonel Norac were commanders of the Split and

18     Gospic Military Districts respectively.

19             The contemporaneous publication in Globus corroborates by a

20     description of the situation in line with some of Roberts' observations,

21     the statement of the latter.  Although the probative value of this

22     publication is very limited, it meets the test of Rule 89 (C).  For these

23     reasons the Chamber admits the article and the map.

24             The Chamber requests that the registrar change the status of

25     these documents in e-court accordingly.

Page 10760

 1             The next decision to be delivered is -- actually, not a decision

 2     but gives further reasons for private session testimony of a portion of

 3     Soren Liborius's testimony.

 4             Pursuant to Rule 79 (B) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

 5     the Chamber will provide the reasons, in public, for excluding the public

 6     from a portion of the testimony of witness Soren Liborius.

 7             On the 12th of September, 2008, at transcript page 8543, the

 8     witness requested to go into private session when asked to provide

 9     further explanation of a statement made in his diary, which is a public

10     document in this case.  The Chamber, having heard the submissions by the

11     parties on this matter, took a short break to deliberate on the witness's

12     request.  The Chamber carefully balanced the need to safeguard the public

13     character of the trial with the interests of justice in hearing evidence

14     from the witness which it anticipated would be of importance to the

15     Chamber in accessing -- assessing the evidence presented in these

16     proceedings.

17             In addition, Soren Liborius was a European Union monitoring

18     mission monitor at the time of the events about which he testified and

19     the Chamber acknowledges that the EUMM is an organisation which has

20     legitimate concerns about the disclosure of personal details of their

21     staff.

22             For these reasons and pursuant to 79(A)(iii), the Chamber

23     decided, in this particular situation, that it was in the interests of

24     justice to allow the witness to answer a number of questions put to him

25     on a question-by-question basis in private session.

Page 10761

 1             And this concludes the Chamber's reasons pursuant to 79(B)(iii).

 2             The Chamber still owes the parties the reasons for the -- for

 3     granting the request for a video-conference link for Witness 52, and

 4     these are then the Chamber's reasons for its decision to allow the

 5     Prosecution's motion requesting leave to present the evidence of Witness

 6     52 via video-conference link on the 8th of October, 2008 pursuant to Rule

 7     81 bis of the Rules.

 8             On the 29th of September 2008, the Prosecution filed a motion

 9     requesting leave to present the evidence of Witness 52 via

10     video-conference link from Croatia on the 8th of October 2008.  The

11     Defence for Gotovina, Cermak, and Markac, respectively filed responses

12     not objecting to the motion.  Having received an informal indication of

13     the Defence position, the Chamber decided, on the 2nd of October, 2008,

14     to grant the motion and informed the parties and the registry accordingly

15     through informal communication.

16             According to Rule 81 bis of the Rules the Chamber may order that

17     proceedings be conducted by way of video-conference link if this is

18     consistent with the interests of justice.  As previously set out by this

19     Chamber, the standard of Rule 81 bis is met if a witness is unable to

20     come to the Tribunal, if the testimony is sufficiently important to make

21     it unfair to the requesting party to proceed without it, and if the

22     accused is not prejudiced in his or her right to confront the witness.

23             A medical doctor established that the witness, who is in her

24     mid-80s, was unable, because of her age and her medical condition, to

25     travel to The Hague.  Having reviewed the witness's medical certificate

Page 10762

 1     provided by the Prosecution, the Chamber found that the witness was

 2     unable to travel to The Hague to testify.  On the basis of the witness

 3     statement which was provided to the Chamber earlier, the Chamber was

 4     further satisfied that her testimony would be sufficiently important to

 5     make it unfair to the Prosecution to proceed without it.

 6             Finally, the parties did not argue and the Chamber did not find

 7     that the accused would be prejudiced in the exercise of their right to

 8     confront the witness.  Consequently, the Chamber found that it was

 9     consistent with the interests of justice to grant the Prosecution's

10     request to hear Witness 52's testimony via video-conference link.

11             And the this concludes the reasons for the Chamber's decision.

12             Last decision to be delivered, or should I say the last reasons

13     to be delivered are the reasons for granting trial-related protective

14     measures for Witness 1.

15             On the 2nd of September, 2008, the Prosecution filed a motion

16     requesting that the Chamber order the trial-related protective measures

17     of pseudonym and face distortion for Witness 1.

18             On the 4th of September, 2008, the Markac Defence filed a

19     response, requesting that the Chamber deny the motion.

20             On the 5th of September, 2008, the Cermak Defence filed its

21     response, indicating that while it did not oppose the request for

22     protective measures, it disagreed with the Prosecution's arguments in

23     support of the motion.

24             On the same day, the Gotovina Defence filed its response

25     similarly raising no objections to the request for protective measures

Page 10763

 1     but disputing the Prosecution's position that Witness 1's testimony would

 2     antagonise individuals inside Croatia.

 3             On the 15th of September, 2008, at transcript page 8691, the

 4     Chamber granted the protective measures sought for Witness 1, being

 5     pseudonym and face distortion.  Thereafter, as an almost inevitable

 6     consequence, the parties discussed the situation and agreed that the

 7     testimony of Witness 1 should be heard in closed session, given the

 8     nature of the testimony.  That discussion can be found at transcript

 9     pages 8696 and 8697.  On the same day the Chamber decided to hear the

10     testimony of Witness 1 in closed session.  This decision can be found at

11     transcript page 8698.

12             According to Rule 75, a chamber may order appropriate measures

13     for the privacy and protection of witnesses, provided that the measures

14     are consistent with the rights of the accused.  The Chamber held in its

15     reasons for its first protective measures decision in this case, which

16     can be found at transcript pages 2610 and 2611, that the party seeking

17     protective measures for a witness must demonstrate an objectively

18     grounded risk to the security or welfare of the witness or the witness's

19     family, should it become known that the witness has given evidence before

20     the Tribunal.  This standard can be satisfied by showing, for example,

21     that a threat was made against the witness or the witness's family.  The

22     mere expression of fear by a person is insufficient to justify protective

23     measures.

24             Witness 1 is a Serb who expressed fear for his safety and the

25     safety of his elderly father who remains in Knin.  In 2008, Witness 1

Page 10764

 1     returned to Croatia for the first time since 1995.  Within a week of his

 2     return, Witness 1 was questioned at the police station and in the

 3     presence of Croatian police officers regarding the incident about which

 4     he testified.  Further, during the week preceding his testimony, Witness

 5     1 was visited at his home by two men whom he believed were Croatian

 6     police officers.  The men questioned Witness 1 about his contact with

 7     individuals in The Hague.  For the aforementioned reasons, the Chamber

 8     found that the Prosecution had demonstrated an objectively grounded risk

 9     to the security of Witness 1, should it become known that he has given

10     evidence before the Tribunal.

11             The Chamber considered that, in light of the nature of the

12     anticipated evidence of this witness, granting the protective measures,

13     as requested in the motion, would be insufficient, and therefore the

14     Chamber decided to hear the witness's testimony in closed session.

15             And this concludes the Chamber's reasons for its decision to

16     grant protective measures for Witness 1.

17                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I have dealt with all the procedural matters that

19     were on my agenda.  Any items to be added to that?

20             Mr. Misetic.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             We have communicated with the Prosecution and resolved that issue

23     with the last bar table exhibit.  There were a couple of documents that

24     we -- in addition that were not tendered by the Prosecution so if I could

25     for the record ask that 1D -- that D876 we propose be comprised of

Page 10765

 1     1D00-0477 to 1D00-0478, in the B/C/S.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, I take it, Ms. Frolich.

 3             MS. FROLICH:  No objection, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Registrar, that would then be

 5     number ... no, we you said D876.  Yeah.

 6             I think as a matter of fact, that you had three bar table

 7     documents, two of them, D875 and D876, already admitted into evidence,

 8     that this would be a mostly likely then D877 --

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- though the number was not yet assigned and you're

11     seeking this document.

12             MR. MISETIC:  To have a new number, yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  A new number.

14             Mr. Registrar, my assumption that it would be D877, is that

15     right?  Yes.  I -- it's on the record that it is right and it is admitted

16     into evidence.

17             There further is another matter which relates to the report which

18     was introduced through the last witness, not the witness we heard today,

19     where there was some discussion about whether filing was done timely, and

20     when the witness was in court, Mr. Kuzmanovic added one objection to

21     admission of that report, which was about events that have taken place in

22     Sector North and at dates different from the visit by that mission of

23     which of witness was a member.

24             Mr. Tieger objected against such a late -- such a late objection.

25     Nevertheless, the Chamber reviewed specifically that portion of the

Page 10766

 1     report.

 2             Now, the report was in need of some redactions anyhow and the

 3     Prosecution is invited to take out D -- whether it was a paragraph or a

 4     section, I do not remember.  I think it was number 8.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes.  It was section 6, I think, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Section 6.  Well, it is about events described on

 7     what happened in Sector North, events which were apparently observed

 8     after the mission to the area covered by the indictment had been

 9     finished, which, I think was on the 19th of August, if I'm not mistaken.

10     These events took place on 21st and 22nd, at least outside the

11     territorial scope of the indictment.

12             So the Prosecution is invited to further redact that report

13     because the Chamber will not admit that part of the report.

14             Any other matter?

15             If not, as the parties are aware of, and we're not sitting

16     tomorrow and we're not sitting next week, and even then on the 27th and

17     28th we are not sitting, which means that we resume on Wednesday, the

18     29th of October, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.28 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

21                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.