Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11894

 1                           Monday, 17 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             The late start is also due to some technical problems.  So if our

13     technicians are moving around the courtroom, you know why it is.

14             Good morning to you, Mr. Novakovic.  I would like to remind you

15     that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the

16     beginning of your testimony, and Mr. Misetic will now continue his

17     cross-examination.

18             Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           WITNESS:  KOSTA NOVAKOVIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:  [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Novakovic.

24        A.   Good morning, Mr. Misetic.

25        Q.   I'd like to follow up on a point where we left off last week.  I

Page 11895

 1     had asked about a unit known as the Mindjusari, which translated is "the

 2     ear-ring wearers" or "the ear-ring unit."  You advised me that the

 3     Mindjusari were a band.  Do you recall that testimony?

 4        A.   Yes.  I said that they were a music band.

 5        Q.   Was there a military unit in the RSK known as the Mindjusari?

 6        A.   I don't know about that.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to now call up

 8     1D61-0373, please.  It is a video.

 9        Q.   First, before we start that clip, do you recognise that

10     individual, sir?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   What is his name?

13        A.   That's Mr. Radic.

14        Q.   Now, on the morning of the 4th of August, Mr. Radic was up on the

15     Dinara defending RSK positions.  Correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And he was a commander of a unit.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Well, no.  He was a coordinator.  He was the Chief of Staff of

19     the Corps at the time.  In other words, he wasn't a commander of a unit;

20     rather, he coordinated the activities of several units the along that

21     axis.

22        Q.   Can you tell us which units he was coordinating?

23        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.

24             There was the 1st Light Poljice Brigade there, and some others

25     from reinforcements from the staff, several other brigades, but I don't

Page 11896

 1     know which elements were involved.

 2        Q.   MUP forces as well, police forces?

 3        A.   Yes.  It is possible that there was one unit of the special

 4     forces of the MUP.  They had a small units, some 100 men strong, roughly.

 5     I do believe that they were there.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we could play the clip, please.

 7                           [Videotape played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 9             "Lieutenant-Colonel, do you possibly have a message for the

10     citizens?

11             "Well, they should be as happy as I am.  There is no need for

12     panic or worry.  Those that are over there doing their tasks should be

13     doing them properly.  Women should be happy and not crying.  There are no

14     problems.  We shall return successfully.  Cheers.

15             "No problem.  There is no problem.  We will return successfully.

16     Cheers."

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.  On the French channel, I hear B/C/S,

18     and the French interpreters informed us on the French channel that they

19     did not receive a transcript of this.

20             There must be then perhaps a mistake, so could we verify, because

21     you know that translating videos comes down often to one of the

22     interpreters following what is said, whether that appears on paper, and

23     the other one then translating from paper, because it almost impossible

24     to follow the speed of speech.

25             So it is a kind of a very sensitive exercise, and, therefore, I

Page 11897

 1     would like to verify whether the transcripts are now available or not.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I'm told, Your Honour, they were e-mailed at 8.33

 3     this morning.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I can imagine that one misses that.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  We don't have them at this time in the English

 6     booth, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The English booth doesn't have them.  I heard the

 8     same on channel 5 from the French booth.  So I suggest that hard copies

 9     are prepared and that perhaps we play it at a later stage, 10, 15, 30

10     minutes from now.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Can we ply it without the sound right now, just so

12     that --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you can play it without the sound, of course I

14     have no idea of what the evidentiary value of the sound is, but then we

15     should play it without any sound at all.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Actually, I'm move on, Your Honour.  I will come

17     back to that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could then shift to a different

20     document, 1D61-0361.  We'll show this via Sanction in English, and

21     provide a hard copy to the witness in the original.

22        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, there is a report from the 2nd of August from the

23     Ministry of Interior of the so-called RSK, special units administration.

24     It says:  "Report on the employment of the police forces at the Dinara."

25             It talks about what forces are in the Dinara under Colonel Radic.

Page 11898

 1     That is the individual we just saw on the video.  Is that correct,

 2     Mr. Novakovic?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   And the third point, the third unit is special unit Dalmatia with

 5     the platoon Mindjusari.  Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

 7        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection as to what the -- what unit

 8     the Mindjusari were and to whom they belonged?

 9        A.   Well, yes.  You've just asked me whether there was a unit called

10     Mindjusari in the Serbia army.  I said that I wasn't aware of that.  From

11     here, it transpires that it was a platoon.  So it could have been some 10

12     to 15 men who made the unit who were members of the MUP, because in the

13     letterhead, it says that -- or, rather, it was addressed to the Ministry

14     of Interior; and in the letterhead, it says Ministry of Interior.

15        Q.   Where were the Mindjusari quartered in Knin?

16        A.   I'm not aware of them being quartered there.  I don't have much

17     information relating to the police.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'd ask that the exhibit be marked,

19     and I tender it into evidence.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D941, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D941 is admitted into evidence.

24             Mr. Misetic, I think the registrar printed out the transcript

25     that was sent this morning, and they have been provided to the booth.  So

Page 11899

 1     all the booths now have at least a transcript.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  If we could play the video then,

 4     please, from the beginning.

 5                           [Videotape played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 7             "Journalist:  Lieutenant-Colonel, do you possibly have a message

 8     for the citizens?

 9             "Radic:  Well, they should be as happy as I am.  There is no need

10     for panic or worry.  Those that are over there doing their tasks should

11     be doing them probably.  Women should be happy and not crying.  There are

12     no problems.  We shall return successfully.  Cheers.

13             "Unidentified Male:  There are no problems we should return

14     successfully.  Cheers.

15             "Unidentified Male:  Many regards to our dear citizens from the

16     Mindjusari who have come here to assist -- we have come here to assist

17     our comrades who are in combat here above us.

18             "They need not worry.

19             "Mile:  Do not worry.  This shall not fall.  In the name of the

20     all the Mindjusari, I send regards to all the girls in the Republic of

21     Serbian Krajina.

22             "What about the Ustashas?

23             "Well, as for Ustashas, we say hi to them as well.  The outcome

24     is well known.

25             "My regard is via target sight.

Page 11900

 1             "Ljute, how do you comment this situation?

 2             "Ljute:  On behalf of the platoon of the Mindjusari, the Knin

 3     volunteers, and combatants, my message is that our co-citizens should not

 4     panic, that everything shall be okay, and that they should have faith in

 5     our army, especially in the police, the milicija."

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'd ask that exhibit be marked, and I

 7     tender it into evidence.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Is there is question coming for the witness first,

 9     or is it just from the bar table.  The first portion was tendered.

10             MR. MISETIC:  My questions were -- I was out of sequence because

11     of the technical problem.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  I have no objection.  I was just seeking

13     clarification.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D942.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D942 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. MISETIC:

18        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, these types of videos, would you agree with

19     me that they were made in order to have a certain psychological effect in

20     the RSK?

21        A.   It is it possible.  It does seem more like an advertisement to me

22     than a combat unit.  Evidently these men were not in their units all the

23     time.  Judging but the way they look, I'd is that they were only

24     temporarily and they were, for the most part, the music band.  As I said,

25     it does look like more a video-clip or a music promotion clip.

Page 11901

 1        Q.   What is it about the way they look that leads you to believe that

 2     they were not a unit?

 3        A.   I'm not denying that they were not a unit, but I'm saying they

 4     were not a permanent unit.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Well, what is it about the way how they look that leads

 6     you to believe that they were not a permanent unit?

 7        A.   Well, one could deduce from their conduct as a whole - that was

 8     precisely your question - that they were more concerned about the whole

 9     psychological effect than combat; whereas, they should have been there

10     solely for the purposes of defence.

11        Q.   Now, would you have been involved - you were an officer in charge

12     of information - would you have been involved in preparing these types of

13     spots for broadcast in the RSK?

14        A.   No.  We had no need for such footage.  I should have said that

15     initially, perhaps.  Our men were not manning combat positions for the

16     purposes of producing footage.  What we were mentioning before, the order

17     on the strict judgement, so this was something that they would do of

18     their own accord.  We had no use for that.  Our men knew why they were

19     manning combat positions.  From 1991 onwards, we did have any such

20     problems.  My team or my sector did not involve in such activities in

21     that sort of incentive.

22             Let me not try and engage in propaganda here.  We knew why we had

23     to defend our positions.  There was no need for such activity.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have on the screen

25     1D61-0344, please.

Page 11902

 1        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, I'm going to show you the 1988 regulations of the

 2     Yugoslav national army on the application of the international laws of

 3     war in the armed forces of the SFRY.  This is an excerpt.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to the next page in the English,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   It talks about the concept of a military facility in number 71.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page, please, in the B/C/S.

 8     Oh, yes.  Okay.

 9        Q.   It gives a definition of a military facility.  Then if we go to

10     the footnotes there of what was defined as a military facility, number 1

11     says:  "Regular armed forces or other armed formations established for

12     the purpose of participating in hostilities, including also their

13     auxiliary and supplementary parts, as well as persons who, although not

14     members of these forces or formations, actively participate in war

15     operations ..."

16             Point 3:  "Equipment, facilities, or other installations of a

17     military nature (barracks, fortifications, ministries of national defence

18     or armed forces, or other military commands and establishments)."

19             4 includes quart master stores, stores of arms, ammunitions, and

20     material.

21             6, traffic routes and facilities of military significance,

22     railway tracks, roads, canals, et cetera.

23             7, equipment and installations of radio and television stations

24     and telephone and telegraph centres of military importance.

25             Now, you, as a trained officer of the Yugoslav People's Army, you

Page 11903

 1     agree with me that that is what you learned to be the definition of a

 2     military facility, correct, amongst these other definitions included

 3     here?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, I mean, the definition was in

 6     paragraph 71.  The footnote Mr. Misetic just read says the following may

 7     be considered, not just facilities.  I think the question should be

 8     clearer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Misetic, you --

10             MR. MISETIC:  Let me --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- misrepresented what was in the footnote.  I had

12     that on my mind as well, because you said that the footnotes there of

13     what was it fined as a military facility; whereas, the footnote says that

14     certain objects or even persons described there may be considered

15     military facilities.  So it depends apparently on other circumstances.

16             MR. MISETIC:  I think we may have an issue there, but --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon.

18             MR. MISETIC:  I think we may have an issue there on --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At least in presenting it to the witness, you

20     left out "may be."

21             And if that is clear, Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Misetic read to you from

22     a footnote which -- of which the original language says "The following

23     may be considered military facilities," and then Mr. Misetic read a

24     couple of --

25             MR. MISETIC:  I think --

Page 11904

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Or is there a translation issue?

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, that's what I think may be the issue.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If there is an translation issue, then --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  There's a different sense that I get from that in

 5     the original, which --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the case, of course it should be verified.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  We'll verify it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if you read perhaps the original then, if you

 9     have it available.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Sure.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you read the original, then there can be no

12     confusion with the witness; then we might still be confused, but we'll

13     resolve that.

14             Perhaps you read the first line of the footnote of which you

15     quoted certain portions.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

17        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, to be precise, what's listed in the footnote

18     there, it says in the original:  [Interpretation] "The following may be

19     considered -- [Previous translation continues] ... [in English] as a JNA

20     officer.  Correct?

21        A.   Yes.  You know that I am -- have a degree in political sciences

22     and methodology.

23             The regulations you have shown to me from international law are

24     practically the Geneva Conventions that were implemented in the

25     regulations.

Page 11905

 1             Now, the definition itself, as provided in 71, is quite correct.

 2     The text in small print is a footnote, and, precisely, as His Honour put

 3     it, the following may be considered military facilities.  Perhaps

 4     somebody was imprecise in using this "may" because a definition has to be

 5     very precise.  It should use the following formulation.  The following

 6     shall be considered military facilitates.  For instance, a barracks will

 7     be considered a military facility if a certain combat unit is billeted

 8     there.  If there are no combat units billeted at the particular barracks,

 9     it will definitely not be a military facility.  That's the way I could

10     interpret as much.

11        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, let's turn to number -- page 33 -- numbered

12     page 33 in the English.  This is numbered paragraph 81 in the original

13     text.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Page 5 of the B/C/S, Mr. Registrar, and if we could

15     scroll over to the left, please.  Okay.

16        Q.   This provides a definition of an open city:  "A place may be

17     proclaimed an open city even before the inception of hostilities.  In

18     order for such place to enjoy full protection as an open city, it is

19     necessary that the other party to the conflict also accords it this

20     status.

21             "Usually, the following conditions are agreed upon ..."

22             MR. MISETIC:  If we could scroll to the right, please.

23        Q.   "... that the place is not defended and that there are no armed

24     forces in it."

25             Let start there, Mr. Novakovic.  Knin was defended, wasn't it?

Page 11906

 1        A.   Well, one might say that; however, the closest units were towards

 2     Dinara.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you also had positions on

 4     Bulina Strana as well, behind Knin, didn't you?

 5        A.   A little bit further from Bulina Strana --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear what the witness

 7     said.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... no armed forces?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, the interpreters did not hear what the

11     witness said.

12             You said a little bit further from Bulina Strana, and then did

13     you add something to that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a little bit further on,

15     towards hinterland and the village of Ducic.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Now, the second part says there are no armed forces in it.

18             Now, there, in fact, were armed forces of the RSK in Knin on the

19     4th of August.  Correct?

20        A.   I was very clear that, apart from the command, there were no

21     other forces.  If you deem the command forces, then you are right.  That

22     was the Main Staff of the Serbian army of Krajina.

23        Q.   What about logistics:  Mr. Bjelanovic, the Senjak bearings.  They

24     were also there on the 4th.  Correct.

25        A.   I deemed them to be part of the Main Staff.  That's logistics.

Page 11907

 1     Just like my information department was part of the Main Staff, so was

 2     the logistics.  There is no dispute over that.

 3        Q.   Well, how would you drive the logistics out of the Senjak

 4     barracks, let's say?  How would you get the logistics out?

 5        A.   Knin had only two or three streets, and they only could get out

 6     of the town that way.  There was only one main street practically and a

 7     couple of back streets, and everything could only happen along the main

 8     street.

 9        Q.   But, Mr. Novakovic, what I'm asking you is, if the order gets

10     passed, let's say, to Mr. Bjelanovic for more logistics to go someplace,

11     were you going to get in the truck and drive it?  Was Mr. Bjelanovic

12     going to personally get behind the wheel of the truck and drive it

13     around?

14        A.   No.  There are rules applied to logistics, just like in every

15     other area.  Depending on the depot, the whole system is in place and

16     plans according to which this is being done.  As you have probably read

17     in my C.V., for a number of years, I was at head of the logistics, and

18     everyone knows that are plans in place.  It is not done by the head of

19     the service or the department.  You have a whole array of tasks, and a

20     lot of people are involved in carrying out these tasks.

21        Q.   When you say "a lot of people," you mean a lot of soldiers,

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.  Not only soldiers, I was referring to all the people

24     working in this chain, but they need not have to be in Knin.  It goes

25     from the lowest level unit to -- up to the Main Staff.  They were all

Page 11908

 1     involved in the process.  The depot did not necessarily have to be in

 2     Knin, where Mr. Bjelanovic was in charge of quarter masters.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let me read 2, 3, and 4 to you:  "The conditions are that

 4     military units do not pass through and material is not transported over

 5     its territory."

 6             Now, the logistics, as you just told us, there were one or two

 7     streets in Knin over which the logistics could travel.  So if

 8     Mr. Bjelanovic wanted to move logistics past the Senjak barracks, he

 9     would be passing through the streets of Knin.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes.  But I explained that there were only quarter masters

11     assets, and there was no transport on that day.  There was no ammunition

12     ever in Knin.  But, indeed, there were transport from Senjak, carrying

13     food and clothes, and, of course, they had to pass through that street.

14        Q.   And if you wanted to move weapons from some of the tunnels, where

15     some of the weapons had been stored behind Knin towards Stara Straza, and

16     you wanted to move them up to the Dinara, you would have to drive them

17     through Knin, right?

18        A.   No.  First of all, the weapons were not at the place where you

19     mentioned.  The weapons were with the units, and there was no need for it

20     to be transported.  It was always in the possession of units, and there

21     was no need for the transportation.

22        Q.   "The economic and industrial plants in that place stop all

23     activities of military significance or activities for military purposes."

24             4 is that:  "The place discontinue all communication with the

25     national and allied armed forces."

Page 11909

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, before we continue, I read this "open

 2     city" paragraph, which apparently says that you need an agreement on that

 3     and these are the usual conditions.  Was there agreement?

 4             MR. MISETIC:  No, that is my point.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Why go through all what could have been the

 6     conditions that could have been, and these are the usual conditions.  But

 7     if there is no agreement, why spend so much time on conditions that were

 8     never negotiated and reached the level of a conclusion, which means that

 9     Knin apparently, according to this rule, never obtained the status of an

10     open city.  Is it claimed --

11             MR. MISETIC:  I agree.  I think it may be the position of the

12     Prosecution that Knin -- they've used several witnesses to claim it was

13     an undefended town.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, we have heard a lot about what

15     there was, as far as military facilities and military units are

16     concerned.  But this appears, this rule 81, seems to focus on an

17     agreement and obtaining a formal status of, which until now, I think it

18     is the first time I hear that to be denied, where I never heard it to be

19     claimed.

20             Is that right, Mr. Hedaraly?  His body language seems to confirm

21     this.

22             MR. MISETIC:  I agree that it wasn't claimed, but I think

23     de facto the Prosecution position is that Knin was an undefended city,

24     and that there were --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did not obtain the formal status under rule 81.  I

Page 11910

 1     mean, apart from what --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Because they never sought it, and that is my

 3     ultimate point.  They never even in the first place even sought that it

 4     be declared an open city, or met those conditions, because they

 5     weren't --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The matter is clear now, and --

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... asked the witness what

 8     he knows about such an agreement, if he knew anything about it.  I mean,

 9     that seems to make more sense.

10             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... no, no, no --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]... to go in to quite a lot of

12     details, because, you see, we come to point 4 soon, which says "The

13     parties to the conflict may agree on other conditions for each individual

14     case."  So we have there an endless area to explore, where --

15             The issue is clear to us.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Judge, if I may, the witnesses come to court to

17     tell a story and to tell, you know, that nothing was happening in Knin,

18     there were no soldiers in Knin, there was --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  That's all facts --

20             MR. MISETIC:  This is a JNA document.  If that were the case and

21     they want to now claim that Knin shouldn't have been attacked, he knows

22     the regulations or what should have been done to have it declared an open

23     city, or to at least proceed on that path.  None of --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  There is no claim that it was ever declared

25     an open city, so whether then to go through all of the details, what are

Page 11911

 1     the usual conditions, if seems to me -- again, focus on facts, no problem

 2     with that.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  I know it wasn't declared an open city, and that is

 4     my point, where, on the one hand, it is to eat your cake and to have it,

 5     too.  It was undefended, we met all the conditions.  On the other hand --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you made your point very clear.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  There is a difference between saying the town is

 9     undefended and it's an open city according to regulation.  If he doesn't

10     ask him the question --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... we now know that a town

12     can obtain under certain conditions that status.  It is not claimed that

13     it ever claimed that status.  Therefore, to go into details, we have seen

14     here that some of the elements, factual elements, which may be invoked in

15     the Prosecution's case, could have led perhaps to negotiations and

16     perhaps to endeavoured to have that status claimed.

17             That is clear.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, if I can take you to --

21             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry.  If I may tender the document into

22     evidence, Mr. President.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D943.

Page 11912

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D943 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have 65 ter 128, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, this is the directive for the use of the Serbian

 4     army of Krajina.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  And if we scroll to the bottom, the date is

 6     February 1995.

 7        Q.   Can you first tell the Court what is the directive?  What is its

 8     purpose?

 9        A.   That's a basic document, and it is at a higher level than an

10     ordinary order.  It governs how to use the army and how the defence

11     should be pursued.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 5 of the B/C/S and page 5 in

14     the English please.

15        Q.   It is a quite extensive document, Mr. Novakovic, and I will not

16     go through all of it with you.  However, page 5 discusses the first phase

17     of -- under section 3, which is likely method of aggression and axes of

18     engagement.

19             And if we look at phase one, it says:  "This type of aggression

20     is in progress and is being carried out by way of psychological

21     operations."

22             Then it says towards the bottom:  "Croatia's likely aim is to

23     exert a strong influence on the population, disorient it, create doubt in

24     the possibility of a defence of the Krajina, and dissatisfaction with its

25     government; to disorganise and divide the state of leadership; to disable

Page 11913

 1     an orderly and timely mobilisation of units and the operation development

 2     of the army of the SVK; thus creating the conditions for a peaceful

 3     reintegration of the RSK.

 4             "By achieving or not achieving its aim, through this operation,

 5     Croatia would probably create favourable conditions for the reintegration

 6     of the RSK into its borders through peaceful or violent means."

 7             Mr. Novakovic, as early as February 1995, the army of the SVK was

 8     aware that Croatia's first option was to peacefully reintegrate the RSK

 9     into Croatia.  Correct?

10        A.   I don't think that this is what it says here.  There's a

11     difference when you say by peaceful means, or when you put it in inverted

12     commas.  It just implies the totally opposite effect.  I didn't draft

13     this because I wasn't in charge of that particular job at the time, but,

14     basically, this is what it says.

15             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go do page 8 in the English, please.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, I just note.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  I just note the record that the inverted commas in

19     the B/C/S does not appear on the English translation as peaceful, as just

20     pointed out by the witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me check.

22             MR. MISETIC:  It's a 65 ter, so if the Prosecution wants to

23     update the translation and give it us --

24             MR. HEDARALY:  I think I clarified the record, and that was my

25     only objective.

Page 11914

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If inverted commas do not appear in the translation,

 2     then, of course, it is appropriate to have then in, and not just say that

 3     it is just for the record.  I mean, I do see that it does not appear in

 4     the translation, where it does appear in the originals.

 5             So, therefore, it should be uploaded in a corrected version.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If we could scroll to the top of this page, please.

 8        Q.   Now, it says:  (B) is in an aggression with a radical objective.

 9             Point 1 is:  "Through a maximum use of all state resources,

10     persistent defence and active combat operations, the Serbian army of

11     Krajina in joint actions with parts of the VRS and the VJ shall prevent

12     the capture of territory and defend the integrity of the RSK."

13             Now, that was one of the fundamental principles of the defence of

14     the RSK was that you would be working jointly with parts of the VRS and

15     the VJ.  Correct?

16        A.   I would rather say that that was the desire.

17        Q.   Well, didn't you, subsequent to this order, Mr. Novakovic,

18     participate jointly - when I say "you," I mean the SVK with the VRS - in

19     military operations on the Bihac pocket, July 1995?

20        A.   No.  The SVK provided certain support.  And as far as its

21     participation is concerned, General Mile Novakovic explained in a number

22     of interviews the role of the Serbian army in the Bihac pocket.  The

23     Serbian army of Krajina did not participate directly; rather, it was part

24     of the defence system of Western Bosnia, and there were a couple of

25     officers who were there acting as coordinators.  The -- the army of

Page 11915

 1     Serbian Krajina did not take part.

 2        Q.   We'll get into that a little bit later, Mr. Novakovic.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 16 in the English, please;

 4     subsection 6.1.

 5        Q.   It says:  "Focus moral and psychological support on creating the

 6     conviction among all members of the SVK that the defence of the Serbian

 7     cause and the Serbian people in this area is a historic task, and that

 8     the unification of the entire Serbian people, which can only be achieved

 9     through the struggle of each individual, depends on its realisation."

10             Now, one of your objectives in the ARSK was unification with the

11     Republika Srpska and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Correct?

12        A.   That may have been a desired and long-term process, but I don't

13     think that was the priority or the primary objective.

14             There was an idea of some sort of unity, and I think that the

15     objective is very chore.  We don't need to go into the politics, but

16     their primary goal for the Serbs in Croatia was to have autonomy, and you

17     know what the outcome was.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I tender this exhibit and ask that

19     it be moved into evidence.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D944, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D944 is admitted into evidence.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, let's go to - it is a video -

Page 11916

 1     1D61-0251.

 2        Q.   This is again an excerpt from that Banja Luka, 7 August programme

 3     that you were on.

 4                           [Videotape played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 6             "First of all, the USA, and especially the NATO pact, even when

 7     we were -- NATO plans interfered with our aircraft, and they also

 8     shelled, as you know, our rockets surrounding Knin.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm told we should play it one more

10     time for the -- the translators may not have had the transcript in front

11     of them when we began the video.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a very short portion, so if it --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters have the transcript.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I heard most of it translated, but I'm not

15     certain that everything was translated.  So perhaps we play it again

16     because it was very short.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

19             "First of all, the USA, and especially the NATO pact, even when

20     at one point we were defending ourselves from the HV aviation, NATO plans

21     interfere with our flights or our flight plans, and they also shelled, as

22     you know, our rocket systems surrounding Knin."

23             MR. MISETIC:

24        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, first, where were the rocket systems?

25        A.   I already explained from Bulina Strana towards the inland and the

Page 11917

 1     village of Padjene.  So the surrounding of Knin is a broad area.

 2     Actually, that is where the command and the radios were.

 3        Q.   And did NATO, in fact, attack your rocket systems?

 4        A.   Well, frankly speaking, we heard this information.  I myself am

 5     not sure.  I suppose that was the case because NATO never refuted, but I

 6     cannot claim that with any degree of certainty.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this exhibit be marked,

 8     and I tender it into evidence.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D945, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D945 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. MISETIC:

14        Q.   I'm going to ask you about some facilitates in Knin now.  Do you

15     recall -- do you recall telling us, when you were being questioned by

16     Mr. Hedaraly about the nuns convent in Benkovac, you said that the RSK

17     did not make use of religious facilities for military purposes.

18             Do you recall that?

19        A.   Yes, and that was true in principle.  Neither the Catholic ones

20     or the Greek orthodox ones.

21        Q.   Well, you say "in principle."  Do you know of specific facilities

22     that violated that principle and that, in fact, were used for military

23     purposes?

24        A.   I would just like to add, in principle and in practice, as far as

25     I know.

Page 11918

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know of any exceptions?  That was the

 2     question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to -- Mr.  Registrar, if we go to

 6     1D61-0273, please.

 7        Q.   This is a document dated 25 July 1994.  "The conclusion of the

 8     ministry of culture and religion is the government has decided that the

 9     building of the Catholic monastery should entirely be used for the

10     purposes of the ministry of culture and religion.

11             "Prior to this, it is necessary to relocate the special police

12     unit of the MUP, and to move out the refugees from this building."

13             Now, in fact, special police forces were bordered in the Catholic

14     monastery.  Do you recall that?

15        A.   This is apparent from this document.  I don't think anything

16     about this, but it also mentioned refugees in addition to special police.

17     One should really examine where these refugees had came from, and it is

18     obvious that the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina dealt with

19     this problem and had in mind an intention to resolve it.

20        Q.   Well, let's address that, but, first, before I move on to next

21     piece of evidence.  The special police unit there, are you familiar with

22     the fact that the special police unit is the Mindjusari, which is the

23     video we saw at the beginning of this morning sessions, that they were

24     the ones that were headquartered in St. Anthony's Monastery in Knin?

25        A.   For what we have seen, it seems that it could only have been one

Page 11919

 1     part of this unit.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I asked that this exhibit be marked,

 3     and I tender it into evidence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D946, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D946 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Now, after this decision was taken, there was then a discussion

11     in the so-called RSK parliament because this decision wasn't implemented,

12     and I would like to show you a clip.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, this is 1D61-0239.

14             May we proceed, Mr. President?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may proceed.  Yes, now I see it on my

16     screen.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

19             "The government has made the decision to place the archive in the

20     monastery, but what do we find there?  A special unit.

21             "Mr. Atlagic, I would like to ask you to come with me to chase

22     out this special unit.  There is the decision of the government.

23     Mr. Mikelic can show it to you.

24             "All right.  Thank you.

25             "Thank you, Mr. Prijic.

Page 11920

 1             "Chairmen, representatives of the people.  First of all, allow me

 2     to say something without trying to be funny, but also not entirely

 3     serious.  Some of us want to chase out the special unit from the

 4     monastery, but more than that, they want to do this to me.  But that is

 5     the part of the political structures, and that is not entirely

 6     impossible, as far as I am concerned.  But as far as the special unit is

 7     concerned, this wouldn't be such a good option, particularly because, and

 8     some keep this as a secret, it was this unit that stopped the Muslim

 9     offensive and breach towards Petrovac, and prevented the consolidation of

10     their forces and pushed the Muslims back to where they are right now.

11             "So much ... let's not play public secret.  There were some

12     matters that had been referred to in the reports on the government that

13     were being kept secret, but now are publicly dealt with."

14             MR. MISETIC:

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One moment.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.

18        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, two questions on the video.  First, at the end

19     there, he references the fact that this --

20             MR. MISETIC:  I haven't asked the question.  I don't know what --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Hedaraly has not said anything.  He is on

22     his feet, so I'm on alert, and you may continue.  That's how I appreciate

23     the situation.

24             MR. MISETIC:

25        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, first, he mentions there that this special unit

Page 11921

 1     that is quartered in the monastery fended off the Muslims in the Petrovac

 2     area.  That's in Bosnia.  Correct?

 3        A.   I'm not aware of that activity.  I don't know why the minister

 4     said this, what his purpose in saying that was.  These were parliament

 5     debates, and it doesn't necessarily follow that this is true.  But I'm

 6     not familiar with that issue.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, I see what I see.  I don't know hear

 8     anything.  Unless I hear anything, Mr. Misetic will continue.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  I don't want to interrupt, but If I may raise an

10     issue.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may raise an issue.  Of course, whether it

12     is appropriate to do it in the presence of the witness, I leave that,

13     because I don't know what you want to raise.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  I want to seek clarification on the date for the

15     witness, so that he has the actual knowledge of the full video before

16     being asked questions specifically about that meeting.

17             If the question is general like the last one, then there was no

18     objection, but --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly would be assisted by having a

20     time-frame for the video.

21             MR. MISETIC:  10 November 1994.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  10 November 1994.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  And that is what it titled in e-court.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I have not seen any titles.

Page 11922

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. MISETIC:

 3        Q.   Now, the second question, Mr. Novakovic, regards these

 4     discussions in parliament.  The discussion in the parliament is that

 5     despite the decision of the government from the summer of 1994, the

 6     special forces still hadn't move out.  Were you familiar with that

 7     problem, that the special forces decided not to follow the decision of

 8     the government?

 9        A.   I have to draw your attention to one piece of information.  The

10     period we're discussing now is the second half of 1994.  I was in the

11     11th Corps in Vukovar, I wasn't in Knin, so I'm not really familiar with

12     some information dating from that period.

13             I did follow the events but not closely.  I was in the detached

14     command of the 11th Corps at the time.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this exhibit be marked,

16     and I tender it into evidence.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D947, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D947 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit D57, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, I'm going to show you the Croatian Ministry of

23     Interior police log-book after the Croatian police took over in Knin,

24     then I'm going show you the entry for the 12th of August.

25             MR. MISETIC:  And, Mr.  Registrar, this is page 10 in the English

Page 11923

 1     and page ten in the B/C/S.  If we could scroll to the bottom, please.

 2        Q.   It's the entry the Zeljko Car.  There it is, on the bottom, yes.

 3             Now the entry says n 12 August 1995 there was a call into the

 4     police.  It says:  "Discovery of ammunition.  He reported around 20 cases

 5     of ammunition were found in St. Anthony's monastery."

 6             Now, you were in Knin on the 12th of August, Mr. Novakovic.  Were

 7     you aware of 20 cases of weapons being in St. Anthony's monastery on the

 8     4th of August?

 9        A.   [No interpretation].

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you were aware of the

11     discovery of ammunition in St. Anthony's monastery, which was reported on

12     the 12th of August, 1995.

13        A.   I'm not aware of that.  But between the 5th and the 12th of

14     August, all manner of things could happen.  Whose weapons they were and

15     how they came to be there, I don't know.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, on the 4th of August, 1995, St. Anthony's

18     monastery was being used by the special police forces of the so-called

19     RSK.  Isn't that correct?

20        A.   I can't confirm that.  I would pass by that area, and I never saw

21     them there.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, I could have D930, please.  This is

23     again Mr. Vrcalj's book.  He is the head of artillery of the RSK.

24             And if we could go to page 6 in the English, please, and page 6

25     of the B/C/S.

Page 11924

 1        Q.   Now here is what the artillery officer --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.  Page 6, yes, in the B/C/S, mid-page.

 3        Q.   He talks about the morning of the 4th, and he says -- I'm -- it's

 4     numbered page 6 of 25, so if we could scroll to the bottom.  Next page in

 5     the English, please.

 6             He talks about, towards the middle of the page, the 4th of

 7     August.  And now the head of artillery says:  "The most important targets

 8     in Knin were the building of the General Staff, the residence of the

 9     president, the casern, Severna Kasarna," which is the northern barracks,

10     "the Kasarna Senjak and the main cross-road in Knin?"

11             Do you agree with Mr. Vrcalj that those were the most important

12     targets in Knin?

13        A.   Well, I don't know in the context in which he used the term "the

14     most important targets."  Maybe they were very important in terms -- in

15     political or economic terms.  He didn't specify what sort of targets they

16     were.  Were they military targets?  One could debate about it, but we

17     don't know what the author meant.  This was an observation on his part

18     which I need not agree with.

19        Q.   If we turn the page in the English, and it is page 7 at the top

20     in the B/C/S, Mr. Vrcalj, the head of artillery, says in the morning he

21     managed to --

22             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to the top in the English please.

23        Q.   Talks about the northern barracks and then says:  "I jumped over

24     the fence in the casern and entered the building where I worked up until

25     four months ago."

Page 11925

 1             Were you aware that the chief of artillery of the ARSK in the

 2     morning of the 4th of August was himself located in the northern

 3     barracks?

 4        A.   No, I was not aware of that.  The only thing that I know is that

 5     he lived in a small bed-sitter ^ in the same building where I lived.  I

 6     didn't see him on that day or in the following several days.

 7             We did not have any professional dealings because our military

 8     tasks did not overlap.  That's why we wouldn't be in contact that

 9     frequently.

10        Q.   Well, he then says that he went from the northern barracks to the

11     Main Staff building.  And he says when he got to the Main Staff -- that

12     the second paragraph, full paragraph in English:  "I entered the building

13     and, boy, was there a lot for me to see there.  Two shells landed in the

14     parking area between the buildings, exploded, and destroyed the entire

15     car park of the Main Staff.  It must have been that one good artillery

16     operator has struck them precisely at that location."

17             Now, do you recall the fact that the car park behind the

18     Main Staff had in fact been hit?

19        A.   The car park was in fact the yard of the command.  There used be

20     to be a volleyball playground.  It was an area between the Main Staff and

21     another building.  A shell did land there, one shell landed there,

22     inflicting damage onto the vehicles parked there.  Of course it -- what

23     one writes depends on one's imagination and on one's intentions.

24        Q.   If we go down a couple of paragraphs towards the bottom in the

25     English.  And it's page 7, last paragraph in the B/C/S.  He says:  "I

Page 11926

 1     asked around about the other commanding officers from the Main Staff

 2     since they were not present.  There were just a few of us.  Some didn't

 3     report throughout the day, although their sleeping quarters have been

 4     situated in the retirement home which was located some 400 metres away."

 5             That is correct, isn't it, that these officers were quartered at

 6     the retirement home, who never showed up on the morning of the 4th?

 7        A.   That's not quite true.  The fact of the matter is that some of

 8     the officers were in the old people's home.  There was some 40 rooms,

 9     whereas 10 to 15 rooms were used by our officers as sleeping quarters.

10     They would go there on their own or in groups and run up to the command.

11     I am not aware of them staying there throughout the day.  They were

12     perhaps afraid, but I -- officers, as they were, I don't think that they

13     spent the entire day in the old people's home.

14             This is Vrcalj's personal observation, and I do doubt that this

15     is the way it happened.  Some of my associates who had sleeping quarters

16     there did not show up in the morning, not at 5.00 but they showed up at

17     5.00 at -- at 8.00, and then they stayed there until noon, 12.00, at the

18     very least.

19        Q.   Okay.  If we could move to page 13 in the English, which is

20     numbered page 12 and page 11 in the B/C/S.  That's it.

21             Now -- in the B/C/S, it's the sixth line from the top of the

22     page.  It's the second sentence here.  This is now talking about what

23     happened after the evacuation order had been issued.  Mr. Vrcalj says:

24     "General Bjelanovic made a remark that I had to find the train captain

25     who would pull out the train loaded with ammunition from Stara Straza."

Page 11927

 1             Now, were you aware that the railway system in the RSK was being

 2     moved to move weapons for the army?

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  The passage talks about ammunition, and his

 6     question talks about weapons.  The second time that happens.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you were referring to ammunition.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Ammunition, that's fine.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. MISETIC:

11        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, were you aware that the train system was being

12     used to move ammunition?

13        A.   I observed the fact that Mr. Misetic did not distinguish between

14     that -- weapons and ammunition.

15             I didn't know that at some point - I don't know how many days

16     before the general aggression of the 4th of August, most probably after

17     the 27th of July when Grahovo fell - some of the ammunition from the

18     Golubic depot was transferred by railway in some 13 carriages, I believe,

19     and stored in some of the tunnels.  I didn't know exactly which of the

20     tunnel it is was.  It could have been the railway leading to Licka

21     Kaldrma, or on the rail track leading to Zadar.

22             But according to what Mr. Vrcalj says, it must have been there at

23     Stara Straza.  I only knew that it had been stored away before the 1st of

24     August.  But since that was not my business strictly speaking, I did not

25     inquire about it or take part in it.  In other words, some of the

Page 11928

 1     ammunition was most probably stored in one of the tunnels, and there was

 2     some ten to 13 carriages loaded with ammunition.  Well, quite probably,

 3     there were 13, in fact.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I go back, please, to D923.

 5        Q.   This is again General Mrksic's report from the 26th of August,

 6     1995.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If I could go to numbered page 25 in the original,

 8     which is page 16 in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   Now, starting at paragraph number 5 at the bottom, General Mrksic

10     reports about the 5th of August in the morning.  He says:  "Then it was

11     ordered to evacuate 14 railway wagons loaded with ammunition from the

12     tunnel on the axis Stara Straza-Padjene, and to relocate them to

13     Otric-Malovan region, in order to take them to the Republika Srpska

14     Territory."

15             He says:  "The train personnel and the security left the wagons

16     during the night, but it would not have been possible to do any

17     constructive since Malovan had already been under the enemy fire."

18             Then he says:  "In order to initiate destruction of ammunition in

19     the tunnels near Stara Straza, the armoured train was pushed, in order to

20     insight an explosion due to the inertia and crash with the wagons loaded

21     with ammunition.  This operation failed because the train turned over

22     before the entry in the tunnel.  It was ordered to blow up the mined

23     ammunition store Golubic, and for that, all preparation had been carried

24     out previously.  But due to disruption of communications, it was not

25     possible to forward the order to the store commander."

Page 11929

 1             The next pages says:  "According to our current knowledge, he

 2     tried to activate the ignition system, but an enemy reconnaissance and

 3     sabotage group prevented him."

 4             Now, were you aware, as someone who was an officer working with

 5     General Mrksic, that on the 5th, plan had been activated to try to blow

 6     up ammunition depots in both the tunnels at Stara Straza and at Golubic?

 7        A.   I was not aware of that, and I needn't have been.  In principle,

 8     I don't know that there were any such sabotage activities carried out,

 9     nor were there any plans for this.  This wasn't the practice applied in

10     our army; although, one could arrive at this conclusion by reading this.

11        Q.   Okay.  You say in your statement, regarding the PTT, that they

12     weren't in use, but that you were using mobile communication facilities.

13             Can you describe what those mobile communication facilities were

14     and where they were located.

15        A.   I didn't say that we used them.  I said that we had some of the

16     assets, outdated equipment, that could be used as mobile communications.

17     We had our own stationary communication system based on the switchboard

18     and radio relay equipment.  There was a unit there that was a battalion,

19     but it only had the strength of a company.  There were some 70 men and

20     some 70 vehicles, which up until Bosansko Grahovo fell, and on the eve of

21     the aggression, were in the northern barracks.

22             Later on, they were relocated into the direction of Padjene,

23     since the plan was that in the event of an aggression, the Main Staff was

24     supposed to be relocated to Srb.  That was a fallback population.  Of

25     course, the Main Staff being in Knin was in the close proximity of the

Page 11930

 1     front line.  We had that unit -- mobile unit with some ten men and some

 2     ten vehicles which had communications equipment mounted on them.

 3        Q.   I'd now like to show you 65 ter 428, please.

 4             Mr. Novakovic, let me ask you, are you familiar with any

 5     individuals with the name either Medo or Zezelj?

 6        A.   No.  I didn't hear such names.  Zezelj is a probably a family

 7     name, and Medo must be a nickname.

 8        Q.   This is a telephone intercept of a conversation that General

 9     Mrksic had while he was in Knin.  It's the 4 the of August, 1995, 2158

10     hours.  He talks about what transpired during the day.

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go toward the bottom in the English.

12        Q.   He says:  "Well, it's finished here.  Knin is being emptied,

13     relocation is organised.

14             "Then, well, can you go to the city?

15             "Well, we will defend Knin tomorrow and the day after tomorrow in

16     any way we can."

17             Now, is that your understanding --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.  Then if we turn the page.

19        Q.   It says:  "Knin is empty, but we will defend."

20             Now, that on the evening of the 4th was, in fact, the intent

21     wasn't it, Mr. Novakovic?  You had evacuated the civilians, but the

22     military was still going to stay and defend the city of Knin.  Correct?

23        A.   Yes, absolutely.  I mentioned a meeting held in the commander's

24     office, and the commander issued tasks at 2030 to the commander of the

25     Northern Dalmatia Corps and the commander of our brigade, not only to

Page 11931

 1     defend Knin but the general area.

 2        Q.   Towards the bottom of page 2, he says:  "Well, they didn't, it's

 3     just that they put the panic in Knin.

 4             "Well, panic schmanic.  Prevent it, execute by rifles.

 5             "You can't do that.  It's a stampede.  No control there.  Better

 6     that than for me to lose people.  It's better that they get pulled out in

 7     an organised manner than that I lose them."

 8             The other person says:  "Don't let the troops go."

 9             Now, what transpired on --

10             MR. MISETIC:  And if we turn the page on this.

11        Q.   It says:  "Well, women and children can't drive cars, can they?

12     Army has much more to do.  There are people in Benkovac, and they didn't

13     even start moving out yet."

14             Now, you had a problem on the evening of the 4th because soldiers

15     were starting to desert their positions as well.  Correct?

16        A.   I've already explained this.  Individual soldiers would leave.  I

17     don't know if you can call it desertion.  They would leave to see how

18     their families fared.  They were compelled to.  There was shelling, and

19     more of the shells landed across the front lines than on the front lines

20     themselves.  So the answer to your question might be a yes.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... to that issue, because a

22     little bit towards the middle of that page, he says:  "Well, F it.  The

23     communication assets in Knin are not working.  They shot everything in

24     this morning.  I was left without electricity, TV, radio, everything,

25     man."

Page 11932

 1             What they shot out on the morning of the 4th, Mr. Novakovic, was

 2     your communication abilities.  Correct?

 3        A.   Initially, they fired upon the radio and television building.  I

 4     think that the first shell that landed in Knin was the one that landed on

 5     the radio and television centre.

 6             As for the communications devices, in the course of the night,

 7     the communication system in the command was operational.  The commanders

 8     who were out in the field were in touch with the command because the

 9     communication centre in the command was not completely destroyed.  Parts

10     of it were damaged, admittedly.

11             The answer could be that they were, yes, targeted, but not solely

12     the communications facility.  The town itself was shelled in addition to

13     or along with.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I asked that this exhibit be marked,

15     and I tender it into evidence.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D948, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D948 is admitted into evidence.

20             Mr. Misetic, the last thing I asked you Friday was how much time

21     you would need.  You said "I expect to finish in the first session."

22             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think I will be closer to the

23     ten hours I indicated before.  If I could have another 45 minutes, just

24     to go through the rest of the targets.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 11933

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I will consider it with my colleagues, and I let you

 2     know after the break.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a break and resume at five minutes

 5     to 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises again for the late start.

 9     There were good reasons for it, but I do understand that is not pleasant

10     for the parties and for the witness who is waiting.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, at your most recent witness statement, which I

14     believe is P1094, at paragraph 31, you say that:  "The Tvik factory, to

15     my knowledge, there was no military use made of this factory."

16              I'd like to show you a report from TV Knin from September 1994.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr.  Registrar, this 1D61-0236.

18             Can I proceed, Mr. President.  May we proceed?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may proceed.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

21                           [Videotape played]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover].

23             "Speaker:  Despite the four years of war and the imposed embargo,

24     the state owned company Tvik from Knin has been successfully resisting

25     any hardship.  The commander of the Serb army of the Krajina,

Page 11934

 1     Major-General Milan Celeketic, visited this company today along with his

 2     associates.

 3             "Reporter:  As part of his regular activities of visiting

 4     commercial companies, the SVK commander, Major-General Milan Celeketic,

 5     accompanied by his logistics assistant, Major-General Mirko Bjelanovic,

 6     and Colonel Dusan Smiljanic, visited the this morning the state owned

 7     company, the screw tractor Tvik in Knin.  While talking to the manager of

 8     this company, Mr. Jugoslav Pavlovic, the commander was informed about the

 9     difficulties Tvik has been faced with under conditions of war and the

10     blockade of the international market.

11             "At the time the war broke out, the Tvik factory had 3.300

12     employees.  The number was reduced to 2.300 employees today, of which

13     more than 1.000 are conscripts.  Still, Tvik managed to fulfil any

14     obligations towards the employees, the workers waiting to reassume their

15     work place and the conscripts.  50 per cent of this company's production

16     was designated for export, but today it offers the cheapest products on

17     the Yugoslav market.

18             "Mr. Pavlovic, the manager of Tvik, has assured the visitors that

19     once the borders are reopened and export it possible again, this company

20     could reassume regular business operations.  General Celeketic and

21     Mr. Pavlovic also discussed the military production programme in Tvik.

22     After that, the commander and his associates visited the production

23     facilities of this extremely important company."

24             MR. MISETIC:  In order to speed it up, Your Honour, I tender this

25     video into evidence.  I have will one more document, and then I will put

Page 11935

 1     some questions to the witness about the Tvik factory.

 2             So I tender the video into evidence right now.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D949, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D949 is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have 1D61-0272, please.

 8        Q.   This is a document, Mr. Novakovic, dated 10 July 1995.  It's from

 9     the Ministry of Defence, and it says:  "Due to the urgent need of

10     constructing lethal devices to be launched from an earth bound rocket

11     launcher and given the capacity the Tvik tractor, Knin, (tool factory),

12     we have allocated part of the production of certain products in

13     cooperation with the Banja metal factory, Dvorna Uni, to the

14     aforementioned factory."

15             Third paragraph:  "I propose that the Tvik factory, Knin, (tool

16     factory) be put into the work system of the sector for military and

17     special purpose production at least for a certain period of time, and

18     that the requirements of the sector for military and special purpose

19     production be considered a work priority.

20             "Deputy Minister, Colonel Milan Suput."

21             Mr. Novakovic, this is from the 10th of July, 1995.  Were you

22     aware -- first, you saw, in the video, the military production programme.

23     Can you help us understand what that programme was?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Today Mr. Misetic is showing the date of the 10

Page 11936

 1     July.  The video we saw was September 1994, so that should be made clear

 2     to the witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  We have noted that.  The evidence is for

 4     the Chamber to consider.

 5             Mr. Hedaraly, this is an inappropriate intervention.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You are asked about your awareness of this,

 8     Mr. Novakovic.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of that.  We didn't

10     see the programme actually in the video.  It was only mentioned.  And by

11     the way, I already said that during that period, I was not in Knin.

12             MR. MISETIC:

13        Q.   Well --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now it apparently becomes an issue of time,

15     because what is put to you in this document is July 1995, where a clear

16     role is --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I was there during this

18     particular period.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And in this period of time, apart from what we saw

20     in the video, where, only in general terms, mention is made of a military

21     programme, which at least suggests that there was a military programme.

22     Here now we find a very specific assignment of a certain task in military

23     production.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I visited this

25     factory on several occasions, and I never noticed any military

Page 11937

 1     production.  I know that all our factories before the war had certain

 2     programmes, but the question is whether they were able to implement them.

 3             If I may comment on the last passage in this information dated

 4     10th of July, the deputy minister, Mr. Suput, only proposes that this

 5     factory be included in the system of special production programme, but he

 6     doesn't specifically say what it is all about.  Also, we cannot see

 7     whether anything was done regarding this.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was about whether you were aware of --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I said I visited the factory

10     several times.  I didn't see any production of that kind there.  I know

11     that there was maintenance detail in the -- in the factory, numbering

12     some 300 people.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, nevertheless, I asked you whether you

14     were aware of it.  You said, "I went there.  I didn't it, "which doesn't

15     mean that you could not be aware by other sources, such as documents,

16     discussions, or other information you received.

17             Were you aware that Tvik was, among other matters perhaps, but

18     was also active productive in military production?  That's the question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't aware, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

22             MR. MISETIC:

23        Q.   Since you weren't aware any military production at Tvik,

24     Mr. Novakovic, where did the ammunition for the army of the RSK come

25     from.

Page 11938

 1        A.   For the most part, the ammunition came from the reserves of the

 2     JNA that had existed there.  In Golubic, there were between 8 and 10.000

 3     tons of ammunition, and these were the reserves of the military command

 4     and the military district.  We also had access to the depot in Sveti Rok

 5     and in Cerkezovac.  It is it possible that a smaller quantity of

 6     ammunition had come from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but I don't

 7     know the exact amounts, and whether that happened often or not.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could go back to D923,

 9     please -- I'm sorry.  If I could tender 1D62-0272 into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections from Mr. Hedaraly, I see.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D950.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D950 is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. Registrar, again D923, please.

16             If we could go to page 24 in the English.

17                           [French on English channel]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20                           [French on English channel]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I again here on channel 4 a French translation of my

22     words.  So, apparently there was a small problem, but I think we can now

23     continue.

24             MR. MISETIC:  All the way to the bottom, please, so I can see the

25     numbered page.  24, I'm sorry.  I didn't speak clearly enough, and that's

Page 11939

 1     page 16 in the B/C/S.  Yes.  It's numbered paragraph 3.  Yes.

 2        Q.   Now General Mrksic reports on 26th August, and he says:  "Due to

 3     the incessant activity of the enemy artillery and rocket system, from the

 4     Senjak barracks in Knin, where at the very beginning of the attack, three

 5     trucks had been destroyed and a driver was killed, it was not possible to

 6     carry out any relocation of quarter master or any other material

 7     supplies."

 8             Were you aware, Mr. Novakovic, that at the beginning of the

 9     operation, that three trucks had been destroyed and a driver killed in

10     the Senjak barracks?

11        A.   Two drivers were killed.  There were the employees of the

12     transport company Lika Trans.  I'm not sure whether they were conscripts

13     or civilians, but, any way, two of them were killed.

14        Q.   What about the trucks, were you aware that trucks were destroyed?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  These two men were driving those trucks.

16        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to turn your attention briefly to the 6th of

17     August.

18             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go, Mr. Registrar, to 1D61-0171,

19     please.

20        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, I'm going to show you an intercepted telephone

21     conversation between General Ratko Mladic and an unknown individual on

22     the 6th of August at 0938.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Now, if we go towards the bottom and it is towards

24     the bottom in the B/C/S, please.

25        Q.   It says --

Page 11940

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Actually, if we could go to the next page, please,

 2     I'm sorry.  And if we could go to the next page in English, please.

 3        Q.   Mladic says, and it's bold:  "Well, in the north, things are

 4     good, but down south, it looks like they did something stupid.  They

 5     wrote an evacuation order for women and children, and that caused a mass

 6     exodus.

 7             "They were holding positions all over successfully, at all the

 8     lines.  The area around Crvena Zemlja towards Knin, it was a bit more

 9     under a threat; however, it was the police that abandoned those

10     positions."

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we go down further in the English.

12        Q.   It says -- the unknown voice says:  "Let me tell you, this guy is

13     celebrating up in Zagreb.  You've surely heard he needs to be shut up so

14     that this is minimised."

15             The unknown voice tells Mladic:  "Now the rear depends on you.

16     Yes, yes, put pressure on from that side.  I will most likely be in

17     contact with father tomorrow."

18             Now, what is being discussed there, Mr. Novakovic, from a

19     military perspective, is that someone is telling General Mladic to put

20     pressure on General Gotovina's forces in Bosnia that are holding the line

21     against the -- General Mladic's forces in Bosnia.  Isn't that correct?

22        A.   I wouldn't be able to comment on this.  I was never involved in

23     this kind of communications and exchanges.  I was in charge of

24     information which was public domain; therefore, I wouldn't be able to

25     comment on this intercept.

Page 11941

 1        Q.   And let me ask you this:  Based on the fact that you were someone

 2     who was a relatively high level individual in these circles at the time,

 3     when someone says, "Put pressure on from that side.  I will most likely

 4     be in contact with father tomorrow," do you have any idea who "father"

 5     might be?

 6        A.   I didn't know even know -- or I don't know even know who these

 7     people involved in the conversation are, and, therefore, I cannot answer

 8     your question.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I tender 1D61-0171 into evidence.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D951, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D951 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I'm going to show just a very brief

15     portion of a videotape, which I am bar table, but it is in response to

16     the map produced by the witness on the front lines.  I have tendered the

17     underlying documents to the Prosecution.  It is a video produced by the

18     Defence.

19             It is, Mr.  Registrar, 1D61-0246.

20             Your Honour, I am going to show you the legend of this map on

21     Sanction because it may be a little bit difficult to read on the video.

22             But what we've done is we've put in red the front line of the

23     ARSK and ARS.  The blue line is the front line of the HV and HVO.  The

24     green line is the front line of ABiH forces, as of the 3rd of August, and

25     then three is a solid blue line.  Then the border between Split Military

Page 11942

 1     District and Gospic is in black, which, our position, would be after

 2     Operation Storm.  The brown line is the international border.

 3             Just so the Court is aware of what this is, these are the lines

 4     and it is a movie made of satellite imagery, so that you can see the

 5     precise points of the line, all the way up and down, of the terrain and

 6     topography.

 7             So I will just show the first few seconds of it, so just you're

 8     aware of what it is.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10             MR. MISETIC:  It goes all the way into the HV positions into

11     Bosnia, Your Honour.  So we tender this from the bar, since I'm not going

12     put any questions to the witness about it.  We have disclosed to the

13     Prosecution the underlying maps which form the basis of this.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So we take it as a still, not as this moving thing,

16     which disorients me completely, to be quite honest.  I'm turning around,

17     Mr. Misetic; whereas, I usually am able to read a map more or less, if it

18     doesn't move.

19             MR. MISETIC:  We will then tender the maps as well, but just so

20     you actually see what is actually there in terms of the topography, which

21     will be important later on as well.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  Let me see whether this roller coaster

23     exercise is any better than just looking at a map, because it is the map

24     that is moving.  There is nothing moving on the map, is there?

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  But it is actually --

Page 11943

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's fine.

 2             Well, Mr. Hedaraly has no problems.  If we can survive this

 3     roller coaster exercise, Mr.  Registrar, the number would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D952, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D952 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. MISETIC:

 7        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, now turning your attention again back to D923.

 8     This is again General Mrksic's report.  This morning we spoke a little

 9     bit about the military operations that were under way in Bihac in

10     July 1995.

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 2 of this document, please.

12        Q.   Now, second full paragraph, General Mrksic writes:  "The

13     operation Mac 95..."  --

14             MR. MISETIC:  It's B/C/S page 1, I'm told, fourth paragraph.

15        Q.   "The operation Mac 95, on the territory of western Bosnia,

16     started on 19 July 1995 and could have been carried out successfully only

17     if our units had been prepared to carry out at the same time an attack

18     operation of the operative level in the area of western Bosnia and a

19     defence operation of a strategic character on the borders with the

20     Republic of Croatia."

21             Then he says:  "After ten days, the Operation Sword was stopped

22     because of the attack on Grahovo and the endangerment of Knin from the

23     direction of the Dinara mountains.  The moves carried out were those the

24     SVK was forced to make in order to stabilize the front line towards Knin

25     after the fall of Grahovo.  Because of that, a new operation for the

Page 11944

 1     liberation of Grahovo was undertaken.  The guards brigade from the KSJ

 2     special unit corps was transferred to the area of Crvena Zemlja."

 3             Mr. Novakovic, first, tell us, what is the special unit corps?

 4        A.   I don't know which unit he was referring to.  Perhaps he referred

 5     to the special unit corps which consisted of four brigades equalling 2 to

 6     400 men.  Maybe he had this unit in mind.

 7        Q.   Four brigades equalling 2 to 400 men?  Is that what you said?

 8        A.   Not 400 men.  That would be 5 to 6.000 men.  They had very few

 9     men because these units were in the process of forming.  That was the

10     special unit corps of the Serbian army of Krajina, the promotion of which

11     was carried out on the 28th of June, 1995 at the Slunj ground.  For

12     example, the 2nd Guards Brigade did not have more than 2 to 300 mean, and

13     the ones I mentioned earlier had even fewer, perhaps.

14        Q.   And was this special unit corps still on Crvena Zemlja up on the

15     Dinara on the 4th of August, 1995?

16        A.   No.  Maybe one of the units was there, but the corps itself was

17     on the Slunj ground.

18        Q.   Well, which unit was up there?

19        A.   You saw this from the list provided by the MUP.  These were, for

20     the most part, MUP forces and part of the 1st Brigade, and possibly a

21     unit from the special police corps, i.e., the 2nd Guards Brigade.

22        Q.   You say "possibly."  Are you sure?

23        A.   I'm almost sure.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Mrksic continues on:  "The two day combat operations did

25     not better the situation considerably, apart from halting the advancement

Page 11945

 1     of the Croatian army towards Knin via Strmica and towards Licka Kaldrma,

 2     via the village Resanovici."

 3             MR. MISETIC:  If we go to the next paragraph, the part in

 4     parenthesis.

 5        Q.   "2nd Krajina Corps were defending the Livanje-Grahovo route and

 6     the Livanje-Glamoc ..."

 7             MR. MISETIC:  It is the next page in the B/C/S, please.

 8        Q.   "... and were closing the routes leading from the Bihac pocket

 9     via Ripca and Krupe towards Petrovac and Drvar."

10             Now, you mentioned the 2nd Krajina corps in your last answer.

11     The 2nd Krajina corps was, in fact, conducting all these operations,

12     Livanje-Grahovo, Livanje-Glamoc, closing the routes leading from the

13     Bihac pocket via Ripca and Krupe, towards Petrovac and Drvar.

14             They're conducting operations in Bosnia.  Correct?

15        A.   The 2nd Krajina Corps was part of the army of Republika Srpska,

16     and they were within their territory.  There is nothing disputable there.

17        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, let me take to you --  well, let me ask you first:

18     Operation Sword was an operation of the SVK against the Bihac pocket

19     beginning on the 19th of July, 1995.  Correct?

20        A.   One may conclude that from this report; however, I would rather

21     have to check.  Although I have high regard for General Mrksic, I would

22     rather like to investigate and examine when this document and why it was

23     written.

24        Q.   Well, let me help you, if I can.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D61-0225, please.

Page 11946

 1             Oh, wrong number, Mr. Registrar.  1D61-0221, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you said, "You mentioned the

 3     2nd Krajina Corps in your last answer," just a while ago, which I --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  It was my mistake, Your Honour.

 5             The 2nd Guards Brigade, not 2nd Krajina Brigade.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   This is a document prepared by you, Mr. Novakovic, on the 26th of

10     July, 1995.

11             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could turn the page, please, and if we

12     could go to the bottom of the B/C/S.

13        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, you see the third paragraph from the bottom, where

14     you write:  "In the republic of western Bosnia," and then it continues

15     on.

16             Then in the next paragraph, you write:  "Our side, the operations

17     in that area, is presented in the media as inter-Muslim conflicts and is

18     denying the participation of the SVK in these operations, a position we

19     are still holding."

20             Now, what you are writing here, and if we look to the bottom of

21     page, it says "Assistant Commander Colonel Kosta Novakovic," what you're

22     really saying here, Mr. Novakovic, is that for public consumption, you're

23     denying the participation of the SVK in the operations taking place in

24     the Bihac pocket.  Correct?

25        A.   I have already explained that only some of your men, officers,

Page 11947

 1     were there, and we only -- we didn't deny it later on.  We denied it at

 2     the time.

 3        Q.   Now, the next paragraph says:  "The success of the VRS in

 4     Srebrenica and Zepa caused great joy among the members of the SVK and the

 5     entire population of the RSK, and has also substantially reinforced our

 6     soldiers' morale."

 7             Can you tell us, what about the operations of the VRS in

 8     Srebrenica and Zepa caused great joy among the members of the SVK?

 9        A.   Yes.  As far as the Srebrenica and Zepa is concerned, we only

10     knew that Srebrenica and Zepa had been liberated.  We didn't have

11     information about the subsequent events.  We didn't know what happened

12     next.

13        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Novakovic --

14             MR. MISETIC:  I am sorry.  Mr. President, if I could tender

15     1D61-0221, please.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number D953, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D953 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   And, Mr. Novakovic, when we spoke on Friday, you will recall I

22     showed you a document that had been prepared by you -- I am sorry.  I

23     showed you a document which had your name at the bottom of it, concerning

24     the status of Yugoslav officers in the SVK.  Do you recall that document?

25        A.   Well, I can't recall specifically what it was about.  Was it

Page 11948

 1     something that had to do with information about me, or was it a request

 2     or anything of the sort that I filed?

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could put D940 on the screen

 4     for the witness, please.

 5        Q.   Do you recall this document, Mr. Novakovic?

 6        A.   Yes.  I do remember you skipping item 5, which, in my view, was

 7     essential to what you were raising, and I intervened and ask that you

 8     read it.

 9        Q.   Yes.

10             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to the next page, please.

11        Q.   That is your signature on that document, Mr. Novakovic?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   And did you prepare the document?

14        A.   It follows from the initials that I did not.  It was one of my

15     associates.  It says "SD."  I don't know who that is, but I definitely

16     approved and sign it.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I have no further questions for the

19     witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

21             There was an issue about the map prepared by the witness and the

22     description, which you said you would come back to that at a later stage.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  If you wish, I can just point

24     out to him right now.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 11949

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, that's fine.  I was actually going to discuss

 2     it with the Prosecution because I don't think it is going to be disputed,

 3     but --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If you expect that there would be no dispute, I will

 5     just leave you time to discuss it with the Prosecution; and if at any

 6     later stage there would be a need, but please do so before the witness

 7     leaves.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 9             MR. KAY:  No questions, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

11             Mr. Mikulicic.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  Let me find my microphone first, Your Honour.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Novakovic.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   My name is Goran Mikulicic, and I represent Mladen Markac in this

17     case.

18             Let me put a couple of questions to you that I hope you will

19     answer to the best of your recollection.  At the same time, please wait

20     for a moment after I have put my question before answering it, so that

21     the interpreters have enough time to interpret everything.

22             I'm referring to your statement from 2001, which is P1092.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Can all the extra mics be

24     switch off please.

25             MR. MIKULICIC:

Page 11950

 1        Q.   This is were you laid out the details of your professional

 2     career.  You said that in 1968, you joined the Yugoslav People's Army,

 3     you graduated in 1972 and in 1982, and in 1982, you completed a two-year

 4     specialisation course in political sciences.  You then received your

 5     masters from the high political sciences school, and in 1991, you held

 6     the rank of colonel and served in the Knin garrison-- the JNA garrison in

 7     Knin.

 8             The information contained here correct, is it not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You go on to say, in paragraph 2 of your statement, at page 2,

11     that as the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew from Croatia, and you had

12     been assigned and posted in Croatia, you joined the special police units

13     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

14             Can you explain to us how it came about that you, as a person

15     holding a masters degree in political sciences, should be joining the

16     special police forces of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

17        A.   They were not special units.  I already said that.  In the course

18     of the implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan, according to Resolution 743

19     of the Security Council of the UN, we were entitled to a police force in

20     the Krajina.  The police force included the regional police force and the

21     regular police force.  Precisely on the basis of the provisions

22     envisaging regional police forces, we set up the special police forces of

23     the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

24             We had an administration, which was part of the Ministry of

25     Interior.  The head of the administration was a chief who was the

Page 11951

 1     commander of these units.  Within that particular administration, I was

 2     assistant commander for information, because that was my profession.

 3        Q.   In that same statement, in the last paragraph at page 2, you say

 4     that you assisted the authorities of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina

 5     in setting up the special police units.  You also say that you were

 6     appointed assistant commander for special police forces.

 7             Likewise, in answer to the questions put to you by the

 8     Prosecution, you confirmed that your statements -- your earlier

 9     statements were true.  Now you are saying that these were not special

10     police forces.

11             Which of the two is the true answer?

12        A.   I have never said that I was a member of the special police

13     forces.  You are misrepresenting my statements.  According to the Vance

14     Plan, the Krajina was entitled to a special regional component; namely,

15     special police units, because they were not recognise units.  They were

16     special units because they only carried personal side armies, i.e.,

17     rifles and short-barrelled weapons.  This follows from a great amount of

18     correspondence and documentations prepared at the time by UN

19     representatives and the Secretary-General himself.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There is a lot of

21     background noise.  It is impossible to hear the witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Can we find out where the background noise comes

23     from.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  It could be from my microphone, Your Honour.  I

25     forgot to shut it down.

Page 11952

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see whether it is any better now.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Novakovic, if I have understood your answer

 5     correctly, this part of your statement where you say that these were

 6     special police forces, and you say that in two paragraphs, that's not

 7     true, in fact, is it?

 8        A.   What is now true is that they were special.  I said the

 9     "specijalna" in the B/C/S; whereas, I say that they are "posebna,"

10     special units of the milicija, and that was the regional component that

11     we were entitled to.

12        Q.   In your statement, you say that you were one of the JNA officers

13     who joined the ranks of the army of the so-called Republic of Serbian

14     Krajina.  Do you have any knowledge about how many JNA officers had

15     transferred or joined the SVK units?

16        A.   Just as some of my colleagues, Muslim ethnicity and Croat

17     ethnicity, they used to be in the JNA, and you joined other units.  I'm

18     speaking about individuals.  The individuals who were born in the

19     territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina joined the ranks of the SVK,

20     just as I said.  The other colleagues of mine who were of Croat

21     ethnicity, who were born there, they joined the Croatian army from

22     the JNA.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can I have document 3D01-0592,

24     page 31, and the ERN number is 917.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, does this mean that you do not

Page 11953

 1     further ask for an answer to your last question?

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I will ask.  But in the

 3     meanwhile, while we are waiting for this document, I will ask this

 4     question.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, are you familiar with the literary text of

 6     the Rade Cubrilo, the Chetnik duke, called "The Confession of Rade

 7     Cubrilo"?  Did you have occasion to look at this article?

 8        A.   I may have glanced at that time, but I didn't attach any

 9     signature or importance to it.

10        Q.   The part that I wish to show you is the information that Rade

11     Cubrilo stated at page 31, paragraph 22, which says:  [Previous

12     translation continues] ... [In English] "... JNA officers in Krajina,

13     together with the politicians led by Milan Babic, fled and left the

14     ordinary people on their own."

15             [Interpretation] He mentioned the figure of 1.200 JNA officers in

16     the area of the Krajina.  Do you agree with that figure as relating to

17     the officers who were formerly officers of the JNA?

18        A.   I had information to that effect, but I don't have it right here.

19     I have to say that Rade Cubrilo had a very negative attitude toward the

20     JNA officers, and this is common knowledge.  It is not true that

21     professional officers left earlier.  They stayed there until all the

22     civilian population left.  They were there the last, and that's something

23     I can state upon full responsibility.

24        Q.   He goes on to say that the aircraft rockets ... [Previous

25     translation continues] ... [In English] "... everything was in the hands

Page 11954

 1     of JNA officers."

 2             [Interpretation] Mr. Novakovic, do you have any knowledge about

 3     the use of heavy weapons including the aviation by the SVK?

 4        A.   Sorry.  I don't quite understand your question.  Your question

 5     doesn't state the time-period you're asking about.

 6        Q.   I'm asking about the time before the commencement of Operation

 7     Storm and in the course of it.  In other words, we're referring to the

 8     second half of 1995.  This is the period the author refers to in the

 9     beginning of the paragraph.

10        A.   I said that the author's attitude toward the army was negative,

11     and I'm not sure about the authenticity and veracity of what he says.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic [sic], this is the document which is

13     only in English, uploaded in e-court.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, usually --

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  We will provide a translation.  We already asked

17     for it, Your Honour, and in B/C/S.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Misetic was on his feet as well.  I

19     don't know why.

20             Since you pay attention to other people being on their feet, Mr.

21     Misetic --

22             MR. MISETIC:  No, no, no.  You said at line 15, "Mr. Misetic,"

23     and I rose thinking you were addressing me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If I said so, it is a clear mistake.

25             Mr. Mikulicic, a B/C/S version will be uploaded?

Page 11955

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  As soon as we get it from the translation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  On the first page of the English, it says full

 4     translations.  Does that mean there is no original and that there will be

 5     a translation of the translation that will be uploaded, or with the

 6     underlying original?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Is up loaded in e-court as the original, which may

 8     come a bit as a surprise, but --

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  We get this version from the OTP, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  If the parties could sit together and

11     see whether there is already another version, which, of course, then

12     should be used, rather than to have it translated again.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would like to tender this

15     document.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It should then be, since there is no

17     translation whatsoever.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  I can discuss with Mr. Mikulicic.  He only refers

19     to one -- one portion, one page.  A lot of the document, just at a quick

20     glance, seems to be dealing with --  I don't if [indiscernible] page --

21     especially if we need a translation --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  A context issue has been raised.  What we have now

23     uploaded will be marked for identification.

24             Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D954,

Page 11956

 1     marked for identification.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And it keeps that status for the time being.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Looking at your statement, P1092, I'm referring

 6     to page 12, second paragraph, you said that in early August, there were

 7     rumours about the imminent Croatian attack, but that you believed that

 8     the issue of Krajina could still be resolved through negotiations, and

 9     you made reference to the Geneva negotiations.

10             Mr. Novakovic, tell me, to what extent were you familiar with the

11     plan for peaceful reintegration of the Krajina drafted by representatives

12     of the European Community and the USA, known as the plan Z-4?

13        A.   I would say I was quite familiar with it.

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... into the

15     evidence under the P451, and I will ask a couple of questions.  There's

16     no need to produce the plan on the screen, just for the reference.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Novakovic, is it true that the Z-4 plan

18     envisaged a peaceful reintegration of the so-called Republic of Serbian

19     Krajina into the territory or the state of Croatia, along with the

20     recognition of certain specific features pertinent to this area?

21        A.   Yes.  Krajina was afforded quite a lot of elements of a

22     statehood, but not the whole of Krajina.

23        Q.   Speaking of these elements of statehood, as you said, is it true

24     that it included monetary independence, fiscal policy, separate currency,

25     an emblem, a flag, an anthem, police force.  Is that all true?

Page 11957

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Is it also true that according to this plan, the constitution and

 3     the laws of the Republic of Croatia would be in force in the territory of

 4     Krajina, only provided they are approved by the local authorities and

 5     that the Krajina would be entitled to hold presidential elections?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct and true.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, we've looked at the content of the

 8     Z-4 plan several times.  We knew who held it in its hand, who refused to

 9     accept it, et cetera.  Could you please move to what you would like to

10     elicit from this witness in relation to the Z-4 plan, rather than to go

11     through it again.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, for your guidance.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] At one point, you said that at the negotiations

14     in Geneva, this plan was actually accepted.  I'm asking you what was the

15     view of President Martic vis-a-vis this plan?

16        A.   You're probably talking about different time-periods.  As far as

17     I know, since I am a scholar and I studied this area to some extent, I

18     don't know if Martic personally approved this plan.  There was some

19     stories circulating around about the rejection of this plan, but nobody

20     said officially we give this plan to this person and he rejected it.

21        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, we heard here evidence given by the former US

22     ambassador to Croatia, Mr. Galbraith, who described for us the situation

23     surrounding the Z-4 plan, and he said that it was Martic who explicitly

24     rejected the Z-4 plan.

25             I'm going to ask you this.  Did you have an opportunity to meet

Page 11958

 1     the Russian ambassador to Croatia at that time, Mr. Kerestedzijanc?

 2        A.   No.  Maybe I saw them together on one or two occasions, I mean

 3     Mr. Galbraith and Mr. Kerestedzijanc.  In 1994 and early 1995, I didn't

 4     hold this position that I held before, but I was following their

 5     activities and their engagement to some detail.

 6        Q.   Did you hear then that during Mr. Kerestedzijanc's visit to

 7     President Martic, President Martic rejected physically to take into his

 8     own hands the documents containing the Z-4 plan, by saying that he didn't

 9     want to take it into his hands at all?

10        A.   I heard several versions of that, and I read some of

11     Mr. Kerestedzijanc's interview, in which he didn't describe the situation

12     precisely in those terms.

13             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can the registry show us document

14     3D0-0127, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... whether we

16     still are at the point whether or not to accept the Z-4 plan physically.

17             Mr. Hedaraly, is there any issue or dispute about what happened

18     with the document which was apparently offered to Mr. Martic?

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, I note that there is no dispute about

20     Mr. Martic's position, which was the Z-4 plan, as apposed to other

21     members of the RS, such as Babic.  But I don't think there was a dispute

22     about the general topic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, could we focus on matters which are

24     in dispute.

25             Please proceed.

Page 11959

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I was trying to produce to the

 2     witness an interview of Mr. Kerestedzijanc, you will surely remember that

 3     that was already meant, before this Trial Chamber, and according to his

 4     statement, he was reading some interviews of Mr. Kerestedzijanc, and

 5     there was no such --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But if the parties do not disagree --

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... then we can move on.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on what happened, why would we ask a witness who

 9     has not been present to further deal with what he read in interviews.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. MIKULICIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... agree on that, Your

12     Honour.  I will move on.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Novakovic, you gave a statement in 2007 -

14     that's P1094 - in which you spoke about the deployment of military units

15     in the territory of the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina.  You

16     mentioned that Sector South that is in paragraph 7 was under the

17     protection of the 7th Northern Dalmatia Corps, part of which was

18     4th Light Infantry Brigade; while Sector North was covered by the

19     15th Lika Corps, part of which was the 9th Motorised Brigade from the

20     15th Lika Corps deployed in the area of Metak.

21             You went on to say that their task was to protect towns and

22     villages in the area, including Gracac.  Can you confirm that this is

23     consistent with what you are testifying to.

24        A.   Yes, that is true.

25        Q.   Today, we saw document P948 [as interpreted] reflecting

Page 11960

 1     intercepts between General Mrksic and other persons.  It is explicitly

 2     said there at the time when Operation Storm was launched, Gracac needs to

 3     be defended at all coasts as well as the Udbina gorge above Lovac.

 4             From the military point of view, why it was so important to

 5     defend Gracac at any cost?

 6        A.   I said last time that across Mountain Velebit and Male Alan, from

 7     the direction of Gospic and via Gracac, and towards Malovan and north of

 8     Otric, there was danger of the entire population and all the forces in

 9     northern Dalmatia finding themselves surrounded, because that was a

10     military route that could ensure such an encirclement.

11        Q.   You are talking here about the axis for the pullout of the

12     population and later on military units, which is the route towards Otric

13     and further north towards Donji Lapac, Martin Brod, et cetera.

14             Are you talking about that axis?

15        A.   Yes.  I am talking about the only link between northern Dalmatia

16     and the rest of Krajina.  Yes, that's the one.

17        Q.   Do you know what was the strength of the 9th Motorised Brigade

18     Gracac where command post was in Metak at the time?

19        A.   At the beginning, our brigades had initially between 2 or 3.000

20     men.  But at that time, I don't think that it had more than 1.000 or

21     1.200 men.  Some of them were at home and some of them were deployed in

22     the unit.

23        Q.   Members of this brigade were mainly residents of Gracac and the

24     surrounding villages.

25        A.   Yes, that's correct, including the villages that had been

Page 11961

 1     occupied and burned, villages Devo Selo, Cikluk, Osmic, and this is where

 2     the brigade was deployed.  Yes, you're right.

 3        Q.   You mentioned Mali Alan.  The Chamber already heard that that's a

 4     featured on Mount Velebit.  With respect to the defence of Gracac, what

 5     was the strategic importance of Mali Alan, and, of course, the Prezid

 6     tunnel or pass connecting Obrovac and Gracac?

 7        A.   From the military point of view, it is very significant for both

 8     Gracac and Obrovac and the link between Lika and northern Dalmatia.

 9        Q.   Is it true that, in that area, a strong defence was set up by the

10     army of the Serbian Krajina?

11        A.   Yes.  There was defence set up, but we didn't have enough

12     manpower for such a powerful defence.

13        Q.   Is it not true that the 9th Gracac Brigade received assistance

14     from the 4th Light Obrovac Brigade?

15        A.   Yes.  But the 4th Light Obrovac Brigade was one of the smaller

16     brigades and very poorly armed.

17        Q.   Feature Celavac is also in that area.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Celavac is actually a radio relay serving for communications

20     purpose.  Is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   You would agree with me, I presume, that due to that and the

23     significance of this relay, this whole area was very important in

24     military terms.

25        A.   Not only because of the relay, it was important because of its

Page 11962

 1     geographical position.

 2        Q.   Earlier on, when we were discussing Rade Cubrilo's article, also

 3     aviation was mentioned.  Do you know that on the 4th of August --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters could kindly ask the counsel

 5     to slow down when mentioning all these name, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, you're invited to slow down if you

 7     mention a lot of names in one sentence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  Mia culpa, Your Honour.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] So if we were to descend from Mount Velebit to

12     the valley, we would reach to the road reading from Gospic via Medak,

13     Gracac, and further on towards Otric, i.e., from Gracac towards Ruvno,

14     Masin, and Donji Lapac.

15             Can you tell us, is it true that this road was largely important

16     for the Republic of Serbian Krajina, given the fact that it divided

17     Krajina into its northern and southern parts?

18        A.   Yes, I mentioned that on several occasions.  It was very

19     important.

20        Q.   Was the importance of defence of Gracac and this road

21     attributable to the fact that the main army staff, along with the

22     political leadership from Knin, pulled out towards Otric along this road

23     and established practically a new government there, a government in

24     refuge from Knin?

25        A.   The Main Staff was always among the last to leave, and it could

Page 11963

 1     have been relocated much sooner, but it didn't want to do that.  The

 2     priority was to take care of the civilian population, not the Main Staff.

 3        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, do you know that during the withdrawal of the

 4     units of army of Serbian Krajina, there were clashes with the Croatian

 5     forces coming from the direction of west and north-west?

 6        A.   Yes, there were, but only a few.

 7        Q.   Do you know anything more about these clashes during the

 8     withdrawal?

 9        A.   No, I cannot say I do.

10        Q.   Mr. Misetic covered a large area which is why I need not go into

11     it with questions, but there is one issue that has been in my mind for

12     quite sometime now.

13             You are an educated military man, holding a Ph.D., and I guess

14     that your professional expertise is extensive.

15             When mentioning the term of aggression, would you agree with me

16     that in terms of international law, this is a term used to define an

17     attack by one internationally-recognised state on another

18     internationally-recognised state and it's sovereignty and integrity in a

19     way which is not consistent with the UN charter?  Would you agree with

20     this definition of mine?

21        A.   I would.  But would you allow me to explain my position on that

22     score?

23        Q.   I will be putting several more questions to you and then you will

24     have the opportunity --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The use of the word "aggression" not only in this

Page 11964

 1     case but in many cases in this Tribunal certainly would not reflect what

 2     is to be understood as aggression under international law, and this

 3     Chamber will listen to that always with this relativism in it.

 4             If there is any specific issue you'd like to address

 5     Mr. Mikulicic, please, go ahead.

 6             I don't have to remind the lawyers among us to what the

 7     definition of aggression has -- what development or non-development it

 8     under went over the last, say, about 50 years, and then I take a short

 9     period of time.

10             MR. MISETIC:  I am completely satisfied with, Your Honour, and

11     with the impression of the Trial Chamber.  So I will not go further on

12     and explore this term with the witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  And, in fact, I have no further questions for the

15     witness, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

17             Mr. Hedaraly, how much time would you approximately need?  I'm

18     looking at the clock.  It is about time to have a break.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Your Honour, I think 40 to 45 minutes is what

20     I will need to redirect.  If we can break now, I will see if I can pair

21     that down a little bit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you would try at the do that.

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.

24             Just for the sake of precision, I was warned by my colleague at

25     page 61, line 20, I was referring to the Exhibit number D948, and the

Page 11965

 1     transcript stated it was a P948.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's then now on the record as well.

 3             If I may add something to that, when I said Mr. Hedaraly that his

 4     intervention was not appropriate, it appears, lucky you, Mr. Hedaraly, as

 5     an appropriate intervention.  That will be corrected as well.

 6             It reminds all of us that we should speak with a speed and well

 7     pronounced so that those transcribing are able creat the transcript at a

 8     quality we have it only with a very few exceptions.

 9             We have a break and we resume at a quarter to 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

11                           --- Upon resuming at 12.52 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that an agreement has been

13     reached on the two documents.

14             Mr. Misetic, Mr. Hedaraly?

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President, if I may.  With respect to the

16     map, the parties are in agreement that what is demonstrated on the map as

17     the participation of the 159th Brigade, the 15th brigade, the 116th

18     Brigade, and the 219th Brigade is inaccurate, and that those units did

19     not participant in Operation Storm in Sector South.  Then the parties are

20     also in agreement that with respect to -- the witness has labelled the

21     following as brigades when, in fact, they are battalions, and that is the

22     84th, the 134th, the 113th, and the 142nd.  All of those should be

23     referred to as battalions and not brigades.

24             Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, how are we going to practically deal with that?

Page 11966

 1     Will a new version be prepared which is then partly what the witness did

 2     put on paper and corrected as the parties agreed?

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, my take on it, and I think what we

 4     discussed briefly, is to admit them, subject to these corrections made on

 5     the record right now and agreed to by both parties.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  That is also my position, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we leave it to that.  Of course, I am always

 8     thinking about, if it ever comes to appeal, that someone looking at the

 9     map then has to read a part of the transcript which might not be easily

10     linked to this.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  For the record, that is P1096, the map, and P1097,

12     the accompanying text.  We would move to move those into evidence,

13     subject to corrections made on the record and agreed to by the

14     Prosecution.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would it be a practical suggestion if,

16     although this map is prepared by the witness, that we add one line, For

17     inaccuracies, consult transcript pages and so and so and so, to avoid --

18             MR. HEDARALY:  That seems practical to us.  We will do that, Your

19     Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So then whether that will be an attachment to

21     this document or whether we put it on the document is still to be seen

22     for technical reasons.  I want to avoid that if anyone ever reads this

23     without knowing that the inaccuracies are dealt with.

24             Then, Mr.  Registrar, P numbers were assigned already, and I take

25     it that it would have its effect on the accompanying text as well?

Page 11967

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  It's P1096 for the map and P1097 for the text.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then still with -- we still leave them marked

 3     for identification for the time being, until the parties have prepared

 4     the text which should be attached or linked to it in such a way that

 5     confusion is avoided in the future.

 6             Mr. Registrar, therefore, we keep these numbers for the time

 7     being, and once the new versions or the new attachments have been

 8     uploaded, they'll be admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

12        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, you testified on Friday, in response to a question

13     from Mr. Misetic - that's at page 11864, lines 11 through 16 - that the

14     people from Drnis that came to Knin in the morning of 4 August 1995 did

15     so pursuant to an evacuation order from civil protection in Drnis.

16             My question for you is:  What is the basis for your knowledge

17     that such an order was given?  Did you ever see it?

18        A.   I have to say that I don't recall me stating precisely that.  I

19     said that people from Drnis started arriving in the morning hours, but

20     without an order.

21        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to what caused these people to go

22     from Drnis and come to Knin on the morning of the 4th?

23        A.   All the inhabitants of the outlying areas, including those in

24     Drnis, started heading toward hinterland, out of fear of shelling.

25     First, they started in the -- set off in the direction of Knin, and then

Page 11968

 1     we saw how things unfolded further.

 2        Q.   Let me know show you D930 which is the book by Mr. Vrcalj.  You

 3     have been shown some portions on Friday, and you have been shown more

 4     portions today.

 5             I want to draw your attention to a portion that was not shown to

 6     you.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  That is page 8 in the B/C/S.  It will be the last

 8     full paragraph in the middle of the page.  In the English, it's page 9,

 9     the very last paragraph that spills over.

10             I will wait for it appear on the screen and then I will read from

11     it.

12             If we could scroll down the in the English to the bottom of the

13     page.  Thank you.

14        Q.   It says:  "In the afternoon, the president issued an order to

15     pull out the citizens from the endangered areas who have been suffering

16     under incessant artillery towards the areas located in the depth of the

17     territory."

18               Then it goes on to say:  "The civilian protection was supposed

19     to complete that task, but due to their lack of organisation, some

20     soldiers have left their units and have gone home to save their families.

21     The president did not count on that happening."

22             My question to you is:  Do you know what Mr. Vrcalj is referring

23     to when he's talking about the lack of organisation of civilian

24     protection.

25        A.   In my evidence so far, I said that the bodies of the civilian

Page 11969

 1     protection were not quite prepared for this.  When I referred to the

 2     meeting with UNPROFOR representatives, I said that they had unrealistic

 3     expectations.  Had they been better organised, then these soldier would

 4     say have no reason to doubt them, to dis trust them, and to leave their

 5     units.  The drills that had been organised here, the two, the civilian

 6     protection did not rise to the occasion.  It was not up to the task.

 7     They had quite a few problems.

 8        Q.   And you testified last week that the civilian protection plans

 9     were organised generally by municipalities.  Is that correct?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   Was civilian protection prepared for such a massive movement of

12     people across five municipalities to Srb and Lapac?

13        A.   No, I'm convinced that it wasn't.

14        Q.   Now, on Thursday - and that's at transcript page 11.789 and

15     following - Mr. Misetic showed you a video where we could see you,

16     Mr. Kovacevic, and Mr. Sekulic discussing the evacuation, and in which

17     Mr. Kovacevic said that General Mrksic told him that people only have to

18     go beyond Srb to Bosnia.

19             Do you remember this video?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   And in Mr. Misetic's -- in your response his question after he

22     showed you the video, you stated that you were in the office before

23     Mr. Kovacevic came.

24             Now let me show you 1D61-0007, and that's page 3, paragraph 8.

25     At paragraph 8, Mr. Kovacevic recounted what happened when he arrived,

Page 11970

 1     and how you were present there with others.

 2             In the middle of the paragraph, Martic tells him:  "I have

 3     decided to move out the town.  Here, I have the order before me, and I am

 4     supposed to sign it.  In addition to Knin, we will move out to Obrovac,

 5     Benkovac, Gracac, and Drnis.  I asked him where the towns were moving.

 6     He showed me the order, and said, 'To Srb.'"

 7             Let's move to the last two lines:  "After Martic signed it, I

 8     then saw Martic put the document in a folder and hand it over to

 9     Novakovic, who then left with it."

10             Before I move on, I want to ask you:  Is this consistent with

11     your recollection that you were present when Mr. Kovacevic arrived and

12     that you left before him?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:  I object, Your Honour.  I don't think he put the

15     second part of the issue to the witness, so he has now showed the witness

16     a statement without having asked him whether Mr. Kovacevic was or was not

17     present.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  That's my question.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Well, that is why it should have been put to the

20     witness first, which, pursuant to an agreement between the parties,

21     before he puts a matter to the witness of another witness's statement, it

22     should have been put to him first.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  He already testify on direct in answer to your

24     question that Mr.  Kovacevic came in the middle of that meeting, and the

25     transcript reference is --

Page 11971

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if could you give that.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  It's 1179091.  It is in that decision --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  That's not the issue, Judge.  That's not even in

 4     dispute.  The issue is that he is putting to him for the second part of

 5     that statement, which he just read, that Mr. Novakovic left with the

 6     document after speaking to Mr. Martic, which hadn't been put to the

 7     witness before showing him the statement of Mr. Kovacevic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Rather than discussing this issue, Mr. Hedaraly,

 9     would there be any problem for you to put it in its entirety to the

10     witness.  No, not the whole of it, of course not.  But the portions

11     Mr. Misetic would like you to verify first.

12             I would have to re-read those portions of the transcript exactly

13     to know whether --

14             Let's try to find a very practical solution.

15             MR. HEDARALY:

16        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Novakovic -- forgetting the statement, do

17     you remember if Mr. Kovacevic -- when Mr. Kovacevic came to the office,

18     when you and Mr. Mrksic and Mr. Martic were discussing it?  Was it in the

19     beginning of the meeting or in the middle?

20        A.   In the middle of the meeting.

21        Q.   And when you left the meeting, was Mr. Kovacevic still there?

22        A.   I think that he stayed behind, and, quite soon, he appeared at

23     the army hall where I read out the documents.  So he could not have

24     stayed behind for longer than two minutes.  He was at my heels,

25     basically.

Page 11972

 1        Q.   Now, when you were asked by Mr. Misetic whether there was any

 2     discussion of going to Bosnia, you responded that there was not.  Is that

 3     right?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Now, if you look at paragraph 9 of Mr. Kovacevic' statement,

 6     right after he says that you left the meeting, the last three lines or

 7     so, he says:  "I then asked how we would all fit in Srb.  Srb had a

 8     population of 1.000, and they wanted to send approximately 100.000 people

 9     there.  Mrksic responded that they should go to Bosnia, to Drvar,

10     Petrovac, and Banja Luka."

11             Now, you testified that prior to the order being signed, there

12     was no discussion about the population going to Bosnia.  Is that right?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   And you also testified that you drafted the decision.  Is that

15     correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   And Mr. Martic is the person who signed that decision.

18        A.   Yes, he signed it.

19        Q.   Now, in the video from Mr. Martic that was shown to you,

20     Mr. Misetic asked you a question about Mr. Martic passing the order

21     because what happened in Western Slavonia.  I want to focus on the

22     passage right before that, and we will play it for you.

23             It is from D99, from 3.00 to 3.30.  Your Honour, I don't know,

24     but since it is already on the record, if we can just play for the

25     witness with the subtitles, without necessarily putting it back on the

Page 11973

 1     record.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If it was a portion that was played already, may I

 3     take that the transcripts have not been redistributed among the booths?

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  They have not.  I think that you are aware that in

 5     order to play it ... [Overlapping speakers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  so it is part of what

 7     already has been played.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, the only issue I would have with that

 9     is just if we can make sure that we will know in the future in the record

10     what portion of it was played to him.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is important.

12             I think you, Mr. Hedaraly, you said it is "from 3.00 to" and then

13     what then follows is --

14             MR. HEDARALY:  Three minutes and 30 seconds.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So half a minute from -- because I see that we're

16     now at 3.30, so I may then take it that you first go back to 3.00.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, I will, and can we play it from 3.00.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The text also appears on the bottom.

19             Any problem, Mr. Kehoe?

20             No, it's fine.

21             Let's play it from 3.00 up to 3.30.

22                           [Videotape played]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm afraid we're moving in the wrong way.

24                           [Videotape played]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear no understandable text.

Page 11974

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, I will just read it from the

 2     transcript.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you would please read it from the

 4     transcript.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  It's the second page of the transcript provided by

 6     the Defence with D929.  It starts at the third line of Milan Martic's

 7     answer.

 8        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, this is from the video that was played.  This is

 9     Mr. Martic speaking.

10             He said:  "But prior to that, I had passed a decision -

11     unfortunately, I had no one to consult on it with - at 1700 hours, to

12     withdraw the civilian population from the cities which were under

13     constant shelling, such as Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac.  The order clearly

14     stated that the non-combat population was to withdraw to the villages

15     which were not being shelled, ending with Srb and Lapac, which were in

16     the Krajina and not in the Sumadija."

17             Now, Mr. Novakovic, in this video, Mr. Martic is saying that the

18     order was only to go to Srb and Lapac.  Is that consistent with your

19     recollection of the meeting which led him to sign the evacuation

20     decision?

21        A.   Yes, absolutely.  I don't know how it came across in the

22     translation, but Lapac and Srb are in Krajina.  I heard it differently in

23     the interpretation, and he consulted with the army commander over the

24     telephone.  He commanded with Mr. Babac and Mr. Suput and Mr. Bajic, and

25     that is what I meant when I said that the decision was taken by the

Page 11975

 1     Supreme Defence Council.  I believe that the footage speaks for itself.

 2     I don't know need it give my comment on it.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.  Let me now show you D923 which is the

 4     report from General Mrksic.  Once again, you were shown a number of

 5     portions, and I want to show you a portion that was not shown to you.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  I will refer to page 7 in the English, and I

 7     believe that's page 4 in the B/C/S, towards the bottom of the B/C/S page,

 8     and the first full paragraph in the English.

 9        Q.   It says that:  "The president of the Republic signed the memo

10     regulating only the evacuation from four municipalities in the area of

11     Dalmatia.  The elevation had the temporary character and an evacuation

12     into the areas of RS, and SRJ did not even enter the consideration."

13             Mr. Novakovic, was this also your understanding from the meeting

14     with Mr. Martic and Mr. Mrksic, that the evacuation was temporary and

15     only limited to the territory of the RSK?

16        A.   Absolutely.  That is my understanding of it, and that's how I

17     formulated it.

18        Q.   So we have evidence from you who drafted the decision, Mr. Mrksic

19     who ordered you to draft the decision, and Mr. Martic who signed the

20     order.  All of this is saying that evacuation was limited to the

21     territory of RSK.  Is that right?

22             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, this is argumentative.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And it's also very leading.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, will you please rephrase your

25     question.

Page 11976

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  I'll just move on, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, let's deal with this document --  actually, first,

 3     let me ask you:  You testified in answer to one of Mr. Misetic's

 4     questions that most of the civilian population did, in fact, end up going

 5     to Bosnia and Banja Luka.  Can you tell the Court why that happened?

 6             MR. MISETIC:  I object.  It mischaracterizes what my question

 7     was.  I specifically made reference to the exact route that the witness

 8     was reported by several --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, if there any dispute about a reference

10     to question put by other counsel, it should literally be quoted.

11             MR. HEDARALY:

12        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, civilian population did, in fact, end up going to

13     Bosnia and Banja Luka.  Is that right?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   Can you tell the Court why that happened?

16        A.   I have explained earlier that having reached the area of Lapac

17     and Srb where most of the people were concentrated, nothing was

18     operational there.  The inflow of population in Lapac and Srb only served

19     to cause more panic since there was not a plan in place for that area to

20     be evacuated.  Such a development caused people to further advance in

21     their withdrawal, rather than stop there.

22             Quite a few of them gathered in Bosanski Petrovac, where there

23     was quite a lot of accommodating space.  However, the conditions there,

24     in terms of water and food, were unsatisfactory, and the population

25     decided to proceed toward Banja Luka, where they would be able to be

Page 11977

 1     provided with water, food, and medical care.  In that short span of time,

 2     some dozen people had already died en route.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.  Let me now go back to this document on

 4     the screen from Mr. Mrksic.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could just go back to the bottom of this

 6     document.

 7        Q.   It says:  "The course of the events in the RSK during the

 8     following days, (5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th August), showed that the decision

 9     on the evacuation of population from the Dalmatia municipalities did not

10     influence the ultimate result of the Croatian aggression.  It is more

11     than obvious that the elevation would have taken place even if there had

12     been no decision for it to be carried out.  Whatever the actions by the

13     authorities and the command organs, the evacuation could not have been

14     stopped.  That is, unfortunately, the reality which cannot be ignored."

15             Then there is a discussion of what happened in other areas of the

16     RSK, where people left without an order.

17             Then the last sentence:  "It is important to acknowledge the real

18     situation:  That the evacuation would have taken place even without any

19     order."

20             Now, Mr. Novakovic, do you agree with this assessment of

21     Mr. Mrksic, that the civilian population would have left even if no order

22     had been given?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.  We showed that initially the population

24     started to move out even without the decision.  What is clear is that the

25     decision only served to introduce some order into the evacuation, which

Page 11978

 1     would have taken place even had there been no decision issued.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now briefly touch upon one other point.  In

 3     the video from Mr. Martic -- and this time it is from 5 minutes 15

 4     seconds to 5 minutes 30 seconds, and I will just read it from the

 5     transcript for you.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  This time I found it, Mr. President.  It is

 7     reflected in pages 11.819, line 24 to 11.820, line 2.

 8        Q.   And Mr. Martic says:  "My return to headquarters where I had gone

 9     previously in order to set up Radio Knin for it to start functioning as a

10     false Radio Knin had been broadcast, and it was deceiving our people."

11             Now, Mr. Novakovic, do you know what Mr. Martic is referring to

12     when he is talking about a "false Radio Knin being broadcast to deceive

13     the people"?

14        A.   I'm not sure, but I assume that he is referring to a number of

15     Croatian radio stations operating on the frequencies of Radio Knin.  They

16     called upon people to leave the Krajina, specifying the routes they were

17     to take.  I believe that he is referring to Croatian radio stations

18     operating on Radio Knin frequencies.  They were probably military radio

19     stations.

20        Q.   And what is the source of your knowledge on this issue?

21        A.   I was able to hear that myself.

22        Q.   And why -- why do you think that these messages on the radio were

23     coming from Croatian radio stations operating on Radio Knin frequencies?

24             MR. MISETIC:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see whether the witness can tell us anything

Page 11979

 1     about it.  If it comes down to speculation, then ...

 2             Do you have any knowledge of this?  So we're not asking to you

 3     question.  Do you know of any reason which was reported to you or which

 4     you learned about at a later stage?

 5             Please proceed with your answer.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had representatives

 7     from Radio Knin close to me throughout the day.  President Martic said

 8     that he went to Radio Knin.  The problems was that the cable running from

 9     his residence had been cut off, and electricity -- the electricity line

10     leading to Radio Knin which was just beyond his residence was supposed to

11     be reconnected.  The bosses of Radio Knin, editors, and journalists were

12     constantly by my side because they were waiting for someone to sort the

13     matter out for Radio Knin to get power supply.

14             All that while, we were listening to radio -- purported radio

15     broadcasts from Radio Knin, while Radio Knin had no electricity.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So you further clarified that it was a false Radio

17     Knin, rather than to explain to us, and you have no knowledge about the

18     why people did this?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot explain that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you have any knowledge, someone telling you

21     or reading it, but it is just the reasons you could imagine why they did

22     it, that would come down to speculation, which the Chamber is not

23     interested in.  But if you have any specific source of knowledge, if

24     anyone explained to you, then please tell us.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know, Your Honours, is that I

Page 11980

 1     listened to it personally.  People commented on this being Croatian

 2     stations.  I had no technical possibilities or the time to check this or

 3     to deal with this matter.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, earlier today, at line 33 -- at page 33 of the

 8     draft transcript, line 20, you were asked about a mobile communications

 9     unit.  Your answer stated that there was a unit that was battalion, but

10     it only had the strength of a company.  But there were about 70 men and

11     vehicles which, up until Bosansko Grahovo fell and on the eve of the

12     aggression, were in the northern barracks.  Later on, they were relocated

13     in the direction of Padjene.

14             Can you please clarify, whether, to your knowledge, there were

15     approximately 70 men in the northern barracks on the 4th of August?

16        A.   I think far fewer than that.  I think that on the 4th of August,

17     there were no more than 20 or 30 men, not even that many.

18        Q.   Thank you.  The last document I want to show you, once again, was

19     shown to you by the Defence, some portions.  I want to show you some

20     other portions.  That's D943, the JNA regulations.

21             And if you remember, you were asked questions on paragraph 71,

22     and I want to talk about item on the next page, on page 3 of this

23     document, which is number 72.  It says --

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Next page in B/C/S, please.  Thank you.

25        Q.   It says:  "Direct attacks on and bombardment of military

Page 11981

 1     facilities alone is allowed.  Before launching an attack, it is necessary

 2     to determine whether the facility to be attacked has been identified as a

 3     military facility."

 4             Next paragraph:  "In attacks against a military facility with

 5     civilians in its immediate vicinity, the commander shall choose means of

 6     attack that correspond with the importance of the military facility.  An

 7     attack carried out with disproportionately strong means against a

 8     military facility of lesser importance in an urban settlement, which

 9     could cause heavy losses among the civilian population, is contrary to

10     the international laws of war."

11             You were asked a question about item 71.  Let me ask you about

12     item 72.  Is this consistent with the regulations and the laws of war?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, you were too quick.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is absolutely correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             If we can move a few pages in, four pages to be exact, to item 82

18     in the English.  If I can ask Mr. Registrar to try and locate item 82 in

19     the B/C/S version.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, could you read a bit more slowly.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.  My apologies to the transcriber and

22     interpreters.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, item 82 talks about prohibition of attacks on

24     medical units and institutions:  "The following may not be direct targets

25     of attacks:

Page 11982

 1             "1, armed forces, medical units, and institutions; 2,

 2     transporters of the wounded and sick, armed forces, medical personnel and

 3     medical supplies on land and at sea; 3, civilian health service

 4     institutions and units; 4, armed forces and civilian ambulances, hospital

 5     ships and medical aircraft," and there's some conditions specified.

 6             The next paragraph:  "The provisions of paragraph 1 of this item

 7     apply both to armed forces medical units, staff, and institutions, and

 8     civilian health institutions and organisations."

 9             Mr. Novakovic, is this also consistent with your understanding of

10     the laws of war?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.  Just

13     to note for the record that when D925 and D926 were admitted, which was

14     clips that were shown from a larger programme, we received this morning

15     from Mr. Misetic the full programme.

16             So we reserve the right to move from the bar table any other

17     portions that may be of interest to us.

18             Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's on the record.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question for you.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us a bit more about the evacuation

24     drills you are apparently aware of, that they were held?

25        A.   Your Honours, within the evacuation programme drills, it did not

Page 11983

 1     contain more than some initial procedures.  People would board vehicles,

 2     move off for a couple of hundred of metres due to the lack of few, and

 3     then they would come back.  Basically, these drills were carried out in

 4     order to teach people these initial procedures, such as what they should

 5     pack and how to survive.

 6             We have seen a drill footage that had been organised at Slunj, in

 7     which the 13th Brigade took place, part of the 22nd Corps of the VRS.  We

 8     saw the brigade commander in that film, and due to such an extensive

 9     drill, the population from that area was not evacuated.  In other words,

10     they did not leave the Republic of Serbian Krajina until the whole corps

11     became surrounded.

12             So, in short, the drills were low intensity and carried out with

13     low-level manpower and resources.  That would it be in a nutshell.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you said people were trained in what to

15     take.  Would that include, for example, cattle they would take?

16        A.   Well, no, for the most part.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us how often such evacuation drills

18     were held?

19        A.   Not often.  I don't have accurate information, but it wasn't an

20     often occurrence.  Civilian protection representative and commissioners

21     were obliged to carry out checks based on the existing document, to carry

22     checks whether there was available fuel and other things at the disposal,

23     rather than resorting to carrying out drills themselves.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, what would be the size of such a drill?

25     Would that be a village, would that be 100 people, 500 people, 2.000

Page 11984

 1     people?  Could you just give us an impression on what scale these drills

 2     were held?

 3        A.   In most cases, it would just involve not the whole village, but

 4     only one hamlet of a specific village.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And hamlets, you're thinking in terms of how many

 6     households?

 7        A.   Well, let's say each village has between three and five hamlets,

 8     so it amounted to -- or, rather, up to 30 per cent of a village.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what you call a hamlet, would that be a

10     hamlet of five or 30 or 100 households?  What would be the average size

11     of what you call a hamlet, approximately?

12        A.   It would be ten to 15 household, 20 at the most.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

14             Mr. Misetic, you have further questions?

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

17        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, just a few points.  Drnis, in the evacuation from

18     Drnis, is it your position that people fled from Drnis because of

19     shelling and went to Knin, where you also say there was excessive

20     shelling?  They went from one shelled place to another shelled place on

21     their own.  Is that what happened?

22        A.   I said that they were heading towards Knin.  They spent some time

23     there, and then they went out of Knin.

24        Q.   And to you, it's just a coincidence that the evacuation plans for

25     Drnis, which you told us on Friday were to evacuate people from Drnis to

Page 11985

 1     Knin, it's a coincidence that the evacuation plan happened to lead to the

 2     same place that these civilians spontaneously went to?

 3        A.   No, that is not true.  I never made such a claim, and it is not

 4     true.

 5        Q.   So the people from Drnis left because their evacuation plans, in

 6     fact, called them to go to Knin.  Correct?

 7        A.   I think we said that they set off before the plans were worked

 8     out, and that happens spontaneously.  That is what way said.

 9        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, you say the civilian protection wasn't prepared.

10     How many people do you know that made the decision to leave, set out, but

11     wound up stuck between their place they were departing and the

12     international border?  How many people were wandering around and just

13     never made it out, that wanted to leave?

14        A.   I have no accurate data, but I would suppose a couple of

15     thousand.

16        Q.   And a couple of thousand people, you say, never made it out of

17     Croatia, but had set off to leave Croatia?

18        A.   The question was not precise.  I was talking about how many

19     people were left in Sector South, and the same applied to other areas as

20     well.

21        Q.   I'm not talking about people who decided not to leave.  I'm

22     saying, of the people that decided to leave, how many ran out of gas

23     before they made it to Bosnia and never made it out?

24        A.   Those who were left out of petrol, they bordered other vehicles.

25     There was no such problems.  If a tractor was halted, people would unload

Page 11986

 1     it and put their belongings on another tractor and continue.

 2             So nobody was left wandering around.  There was always people

 3     willing to give lift to other people.

 4        Q.   So would you agree with me that anyone civilian protection was

 5     organised enough that anyone who wanted to leave and had set out to leave

 6     actually was able to get out of Croatia?  Is that a fair statement?

 7        A.   That was not the question solved by the civilian protection.

 8     People solved it among themselves whether they knew each other or not.

 9     People dealt with that on their own.  I'm not saying that civilian

10     protection as a whole did not function properly, but there were some

11     short comings.

12        Q.   Now, you were asked about General Mrksic's report and about the

13     fact people from Lika and Kordun left without the evacuation order having

14     been issued with respect to them, and that the evacuation would take

15     place even without an order.

16             Now, the evacuation of Western Slavonia also took place without

17     an order.  Correct?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the evacuation of Western

20     Slavonia also took place without excessive shelling?  Correct.

21        A.   I wouldn't agree with that.

22        Q.   Well, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Novakovic, what towns in

23     Lika and Kordun were excessively shelled in Operation Storm?

24        A.   Each town and each village.  Plaski, Vrhorine, it was shelled or

25     bombarded by aircraft.  Slunj --

Page 11987

 1        Q.   How come the people on the first day didn't.  As you yourself

 2     pointed out, they didn't leave.  Why didn't they leave if they were being

 3     bombed and shelled on the first day?  Why didn't they leave on the first

 4     day?

 5        A.   Because in Kordun, they were best organised.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... militarily, right?

 7        A.   Both militarily and the civilian protection, in every respect.

 8        Q.   Now, you know they didn't leave because your military positions

 9     were holding up there.  Isn't that right?

10        A.   That's correct as well.

11        Q.   And the reason that the civilians left in Sector South is because

12     your military positions were not holding in Sector South.  Isn't that

13     right, Mr. Novakovic?

14        A.   That's not correct.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Novakovic.  With respect

16     to Radio Knin, I note in your statement, P1092, you first told the Office

17     of the Prosecutor that the decision on evacuation was not forwarded

18     through the official mail and was not publicised through the media.

19             Now you claim that on the 4th that actually you heard Radio Knin,

20     a false Radio Knin, giving orders and instructions.  You never mentioned

21     that in your statements and you never mention that in any of your three

22     statements, do you, Mr. Novakovic?

23        A.   Nobody asked me about it, but I didn't say anything about giving

24     order.  I was very precise.  I said that certain routes were indicated;

25     therefore, I was very precise.

Page 11988

 1        Q.   But when you were asked about whether the evacuation order had

 2     been publicised, you said that that order had not been publicised, but

 3     you decided not tell the Prosecution that Radio Knin -- false Radio Knin

 4     was, in fact, otherwise giving instructions on certain routes for people,

 5     right?  You never told them that?

 6        A.   Excuse me.  I didn't understand your question.

 7        Q.   Let me ask it a different way.  You were the liaison officer with

 8     UNCRO.  You never told UNCRO or anyone else on the 4th that you were

 9     hearing false Radio Knin, right?

10        A.   We didn't discuss that.

11        Q.   So, apparently, this false Radio Knin with false instructions for

12     civilians on routes to escape wasn't even important for you to bring up

13     to General Forand during your meetings, or Mr. Roberts during your

14     meetings, or anyone else, right?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   And in your proofing with the Office of the Prosecutor or any of

17     your tree meetings did they ever show you any, any document which would

18     indicate that, in fact, there was any such thing as a false Radio Knin

19     broadcasting in Knin?

20        A.   I didn't have a chance to discuss this issue with them.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, let me first check whether

24     Mr. Mikulicic has any further questions.

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  No further questions, Your Honour.

Page 11989

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, that remains the same?

 2             Mr. Hedaraly.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

 4                           Further re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

 5        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, the Presiding Judge ask you about these

 6     evacuations drills, and you referred to the video you saw from the one in

 7     Slunj.  And in your testimony, you referred to hearing about different

 8     drills.  Do you know whether any such drills were carried out in any of

 9     the villages in former Sector South.

10        A.   I had some information about that.  For example, the village of

11     Kistanje, Djevrska, Pribir [phoen], that area and some other villages,

12     too.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  This then concludes your testimony, Mr. Novakovic.

15     I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague

16     and for having answered the questions put to you by the parties and by

17     the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day.

20             I see that some members of the Prosecution team have joined us

21     just to hear me adjourning or was there any other specific reason.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Just in case, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Just in case.  Thank you for that, Ms. Mahindaratne.

24             We'll adjourn and we will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 18th of

25     November, quarter past 2.00 in Courtroom I.

Page 11990

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 2                            to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of

 3                            November, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.