Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12605

 1                           Wednesday, 26 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             The Chamber would like to inform the parties that pursuant to

13     Rule 15 bis (a), today's hearing will take place in the absence of

14     Judge Kinis.  Judge Kinis is away for urgent personal reasons, and

15     Judge Gwaunza and I have conclude that it is in the interests of justice

16     to continue the trial without Judge Kinis, who will be present again on

17     Friday.

18             Mr. Misetic, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?

19             Then, Mr. Theunens, I would like to again remind you that you're

20     still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your

21     testimony.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           WITNESS:  REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

Page 12606

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Theunens.

 2        A.   Good morning, Mr. Misetic.

 3        Q.   Mr. Theunens, first let me go back to a point I made before we

 4     paused for the second break yesterday.  I had invited to you look through

 5     your documents to see if in your report you had made reference to notice

 6     to General Gotovina of murders committed by HV.

 7             Could you please point me to those.

 8        A.   Your Honours, in the second part of the report at the English

 9     page 326, I have included a report by the commander of the 3rd Company of

10     the 72nd Military Police Battalion, which is part of 65 ter 419.  More

11     specifically the information I have included can be found on -- in the

12     English translations, pages 7 and 8 of 9 of 65 ter 419.

13             And the commander of the 3rd Military Police Company in his

14     report to Major Juric states:

15             "During the searches, i.e., this is upon the arrival of the HV

16     Split Military District units, more specifically the 134th and the 7th

17     Home Guard Regiments in Benkovac on the 5th and the taking control over

18     Benkovac as a whole on the 6th.  So during the searches we found five,

19     six dead people, and then we informed the security services."

20             I now skip a part just to speed matters up, or I could read it

21     out entirely.

22        Q.   Just the next sentence.

23        A.   "During the searches we found five, six dead people, and then we

24     informed the security services, as well as the services in charge of the

25     clearing up of the terrain.  Considering the shortness of time passed

Page 12607

 1     since our entrance to the city, we assumed that these were people of

 2     Croatian ethnicity who have been killed by Chetniks."

 3             The reason, Your Honours, I used this information in response to

 4     Mr. Misetic's question is that, as I have pointed out earlier, the

 5     military police reporting is not the only source of reporting for the

 6     operational commander.

 7             In this particular case the commander of the Split Military

 8     District will receive reports from the commanders -- from the commander

 9     of OG Zadar, whereby the commander of OG Zadar will have received reports

10     from his subordinate units who were in Benkovac, namely the 134th and the

11     7th Home Guard Regiment, in addition, there is the reporting from the

12     department for political affairs, which goes through the chain of

13     command, i.e., from OG Zadar to the Split Military District, and I

14     mentioned this just to explain that the commander has several sources of

15     information.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, if I may stop you for a second there.

17             Do you say that this was reported through these chains, this

18     incident; or do you say, Here we see a report and one could expect,

19     although it could not be established, that that's what happened, that it

20     should be reported?

21             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, indeed it should be reported.  But

22     again I wanted to draw your attention to HV doctrine, where it is stated

23     that the commander has to be familiar with this --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Misetic was

25     seeking your assistance in finding documents in which we find such

Page 12608

 1     reports.  And that's, I think, what he asked to you do, and I think he

 2     will appreciate that you have done it.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.   Yes.  If could I just clarify this now, Mr. Theunens.

 6             First, you will agree with me that this report that you're

 7     referencing is not a report that goes to General Gotovina.  It's a report

 8     from the -- Mr. Gransavic [phoen] of the military police to Mr. Juric,

 9     correct?

10        A.   As far as this specific report is concerned, yes.

11        Q.   And you have no evidence at all that this report was copied to

12     the Split Military District, sent to the Military District.  I'm not

13     asking you now what you think the theory should have called for.  I'm

14     saying you have no evidence that this was send to the Split Military

15     District Command?

16        A.   That is correct.  I would just like add one other document that

17     is 65 ter 4600, where the commander of the 134th Home Guard Regiment

18     reports to his commander, and I draw the conclusion that his commander is

19     General Gotovina.  This is a report from the 23rd of August, and it

20     covers the situation in Benkovac and the problems that occurred in

21     Benkovac upon the 134th and the 7th Home Guard Regiments taking over

22     control, whereby commander of the 134th also refers to the presence of a

23     member of the Split Military District Command, i.e., Colonel Sundov, who

24     is the assistant commander for Home Guard, in Benkovac at the time of the

25     arrival of the Split Military District unit there.

Page 12609

 1        Q.   Okay.  So again my question is, the answer is no, you don't have

 2     evidence that General Gotovina was given notice of murders having been

 3     committed by someone in the HV?

 4        A.   I haven't come across documents during my -- the preparation of

 5     my reports that indicate notice of murders.  But again I tried to explain

 6     how militaries operate.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, just while we're on this topic, when you were doing

 8     your searches of the OTP's database, did you use word combinations such

 9     as "Gotovina," "murder"?

10        A.   No, Your Honours, I don't remember doing such a specific search.

11     As I explained earlier, I did searches "Gotovina" and "95," "Gotovina"

12     and "94" and other combinations but not specifically directed at murders.

13        Q.   Okay.  We will let's take that -- Gotovina and 95 is the broadest

14     possible search you could do in the database.  Correct?

15        A.   Exactly.

16        Q.   Okay?

17        A.   I mean the broadest would be Gotovina "tout court."

18        Q.   Agreed.  In terms what we're interested in this for this case for

19     the year 1995 and notice of murders, if you do a search and pull every

20     document that is -- has "Gotovina" and "1995," presumably - correct me if

21     I'm wrong - if there is an document referencing General Gotovina having

22     been put on notice of murders in 1995, that document would presumably

23     come up in your search?

24        A.   Such a specific document would have come up in my search.  And as

25     I mentioned, I have not come across such a specific document.

Page 12610

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Theunens.

 2             Now, if we could go back to where we left off yesterday.  Let me

 3     pull up P881.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if you would, please.

 5        Q.   Now I believe this is the order that you were referencing

 6     yesterday which you indicated that you believe General Lausic had - and I

 7     don't want to put words in your mouth but - something to the effect of

 8     overstepped his authority under Article 8, and I think is the specific

 9     document that you refer to, correct?

10        A.   That is correct.  And if you allow me, Yesterday I had no clear

11     recollection of the document.  Now I mean I looked at the document again

12     yesterday afternoon.  And when I see the contents of the document, and in

13     particular paragraph 7, which is -- which is visible on the second page,

14     I would like to retract what I said in connection to my initial comment

15     yesterday, that I considered that this order was an example of

16     General Lausic's overstepping his authority.

17             Based again on -- on the contents of this order, and in

18     particular because he orders to establish military police stations all

19     over the territories that have been recaptured, I consider that it is in

20     line with Article 8 of the 1994 rules as well as the document D35 that

21     was discussed here.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to a different document then.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have Exhibit D845 on the

24     screen, please.

25        Q.   Mr. Theunens, this is a document.  It's a report sent from the

Page 12611

 1     commander of the 4th Company of the 72nd Military Police Battalion, sent

 2     to Major Budimir, on the 7th of August, reporting on his oral order

 3     received from General Lausic.

 4             And if you look at it, on the 7th of August he says:

 5             "Pursuant to the oral order of the chief of the military police

 6     administration, Major-General Mate Lausic, received ..."

 7             Are you following this?

 8        A.   Yeah, yeah.

 9        Q.    "Received 7 August 1995 at 1310 hours who ordered that a

10     security system be established urgently at the entries and exits of the

11     following warehouses ..."

12             And General Lausic orders three specific warehouses notice Knin

13     area and the wider Knin area, Krka, Senjak and the Golubic depots.

14        A.   Mm-hm.

15        Q.   Now it goes on to stay:

16             "When the security system is established, the aforementioned

17     senior officers are obliged to write a written report and send it

18     urgently to the MP administration indicating that the security system has

19     been established.  The addressee of the report should be Major-General

20     Mate Lausic.

21             Now on the 7th of August, General Lausic is issuing specific

22     orders on specific warehouses that need to be secured with MP personnel.

23     Is this order issued by General Lausic consistent with his powers under

24     Article 8?

25        A.   Well, when you consider this document in isolation, then the

Page 12612

 1     initial reaction would be that it goes beyond what is stipulated in the

 2     Article 8 because of its specificity.

 3             As I tried to explain also during my examination, analysis or

 4     intelligent analysis is about looking at individual documents but also

 5     putting them in content, and yesterday afternoon I reviewed my report

 6     again, and I made a list of the documents that relate to activities

 7     including reports an orders of the 72nd Military Police Battalion, both

 8     prior to and during Storm, and these documents indicated that indeed

 9     there are instructions by Lausic, some of them like this one appear to be

10     more specific than what one would expect from Article 8 of P880, or from

11     D35, but taking context of all the other documents included in my report,

12     I do not see a reason to review my conclusions that Articles 8 and 9 are

13     abided by during Operation Storm, and actually they are also confirmed by

14     D35.

15        Q.   You and I are going to go through the context of all of these

16     orders in a few minutes, but for right now I would like your specific

17     answer.  You correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand your answer to be

18     taking this specific order, individually you would consider this order

19     individually to be outside the scope of General Lausic's powers under

20     Article 8.  Am I right?

21        A.   That is correct.  And there may be reasons for that, but I did

22     not find, or I have not come across information which indicate which

23     reasons General Lausic had for this order.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit D795 on the

Page 12613

 1     screen, please.

 2        Q.   Mr. Theunens, this is a document again dated 7 August 1995.  It's

 3     issued by General Lausic.  It's sent to the forward command post Ugljan

 4     sent to Major Juric on behalf of the 72nd MP Battalion and sent to the

 5     67th Military Police Battalion Sisak.  And in the introduction Mr. Lausic

 6     calls upon his own pursuant under Article 8 and issues an order --

 7        A.   I think there's a problem with the English.

 8        Q.   Oh, yeah, sorry.

 9             You see there on the 7th of August he sends this order to the

10     three address, and in the introductions he invokes his powers under

11     Article 8.

12             And then again they are to establish the location of every

13     warehouse facility within the entire liberated territory, evaluate a

14     method of physically securing all warehouse facilities, and establishing

15     physical security.  They are to enter the warehouse facilities, and

16     issuing mechanical technical devices is not permitted without written

17     clearance from General Zagorac.  They are to immediately establish

18     physical security and maintain it until the hand over.

19             And if we turn the page.

20             Paragraph 5 is, they are to submit reports on the implementation

21     of this order starting on the 7th of August and if need be orally to the

22     military police administration.

23             Now here again General Lausic is issuing an even broader order

24     concerning all warehouse facilities on the liberated territory, how they

25     are to do it, and they are to go and secure them.  Do you consider that

Page 12614

 1     order to be outside the scope of General Lausic's powers under Article 8?

 2        A.   No, Your Honours, and for the following reasons:  First of all,

 3     General Lausic acts upon an instruction from the minister of defence.

 4     And also for the second reason is because the Croatian armed force have

 5     an interest in having a uniform approach to -- or in dealing with former

 6     enemy warehouses, and at that stage, the 7th of August, the military

 7     police seemed to be the best suited force to take care of these

 8     warehouses to secure them and to prevent people who are not authorised

 9     from entering, and so on and so on.

10             And again, as you said yourself, the order explains how they

11     should do it.  For me that is in line with Article 8 of the 1994 MP

12     rules.

13        Q.   Well, let's follow up on that.  In addition to having a uniform

14     approach to dealing with warehouses, you would agree with me that it was

15     in the interests of the Croatian armed forces and the Croatian government

16     to have a uniform approach to establishing and re-establishing security

17     in the liberated territory, right?

18        A.   Indeed, yes.

19        Q.   You would want a uniform approach in the entire liberated

20     territories on how the security plan is going to be implemented, correct?

21        A.   I cannot answer that question because I have seen the security

22     plan for the Split Military District, i.e., we discuss the one for

23     OG North which was approved by General Gotovina.  I have not been able to

24     review the security plans, i.e., the plans that are included in the order

25     for attack Kozjak for the other Military Districts.

Page 12615

 1        Q.   Well, if there was a plan worked out between the MUP and the

 2     military police administration on how security was going to function, you

 3     would agree with me that that plan -- it was in the interests of the

 4     Croatian government that that plan be implemented in a uniform approach

 5     on the liberated territory, correct?

 6        A.   That is correct.  But I mean at the end we will state, Well,

 7     everything was ordered by the chief of the Main Staff because you wanted

 8     to have a uniform approach in all of the Military Districts in relation

 9     to how to restore Croatian control over the Serb-held areas, and

10     obviously that was not the case.

11             So there are -- there are limits, but this is a very good

12     example.  This particular order we're looking at of a specific matter

13     which falls within the professional capabilities of the military police

14     or within the professional tasks of the military police, and where, at a

15     stage when Operation Storm is not yet finished, i.e., with the 7th of

16     August, so the combat units are still needed to conduct military

17     operations, it is -- makes sense to have the military police secure

18     warehouses, and therefore to have a uniform approach in all of the

19     recaptured areas.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let explore this topic, and let's start from the

21     beginning, Mr. Theunens.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, may I please have Exhibit D409.

23        Q.   I think you have seen the document we're putting up right now.

24     These are General Lausic's notes from a meeting that was held on the 2nd

25     of August, 1995 at 10.00 a.m.

Page 12616

 1             You are familiar with this, right?

 2        A.   Indeed, Your Honours, and I have mentioned them in part 2 of my

 3     report.

 4        Q.   And you see all the military people that are present at this

 5     meeting.  This includes basically every service, every Military District

 6     Commander, the minister of defence, Mr. Lausic himself, Mr. Lausic's

 7     assistants, like Marijan Biskic Muharem; the chief of the SIS is present,

 8     Mr. Gugic at line 7; and intelligence services are present.

 9             And if we turn to page 3 of the document, the note where minister

10     Susak begins to speak.  The third entry under Minster Susak is "military

11     police must be more energetic in its actions and must prevent all

12     offences."

13             The next entry is "the Military District Commanders must be the

14     ones to pass on to the other commanders the prohibition of any kind of

15     uncontrolled conduct:  Torching, looting, et cetera."

16             Next entry is "we must prevent having to take the heros of the

17     homeland war to court.  And then PD, political affairs workers, must

18     carry out their tasks of appropriately briefing HV members."

19             And the last line is "the west has given a partial blessing, but

20     nothing must happen to UNPROFOR."

21             Now, and just as a side note, General Gotovina speaks after that,

22     in the fourth entry is "populated areas are included in the defence

23     system."

24             But I want to get what Mr. Susak said.  He is talking there about

25     a combination of different measures that need to be taken.  Would you

Page 12617

 1     agree with me?  He says the Military District Commanders need to pass on

 2     orders that illegal unlawful conduct, such as torching and looting is

 3     banned, correct?

 4        A.   Indeed, and just I mean for the people maybe in a non-military

 5     mind, passing on does not mean just push forward on an e-mail and say,

 6     Well, look here's the order.  It means that throughout the chain of

 7     command, the orders have to be issued and also their implementation has

 8     to be verified.

 9        Q.   I think we're all familiar with that, Mr. Theunens.

10        A.   I apologise then.

11        Q.   Now, let's get to the first line, which is "it is the military

12     police that must be energetic in its actions and must prevent all

13     offences."

14             That is the role of the military police according to

15     Minister Susak on the 2nd, correct?

16        A.   Indeed, but again when we take the 1992 Code Of Military

17     Discipline, as well as regulations that define the tasks of commanders,

18     enforcing discipline is first and foremost a task the commander, and it

19     is only when he fails or is not able to enforce discipline or when there

20     are serious violations that the military police is called upon to

21     intervene and to assist.

22        Q.   That is not correct, is it, Mr. Theunens?  You read the military

23     police administration's regulations.  Have you read them thoroughly?

24        A.   I have read them, but I have also read the 1993 Law of Defence.

25        Q.   Have you read the 1994 military police administration regulations

Page 12618

 1     on what the tasks of the military police are?

 2        A.   Of course.  But the military police does not act in isolation.

 3        Q.   Well, Mr. Theunens, no one acts in isolation in the military, do

 4     they?

 5        A.   No, but have I the impression that you try to depict the role of

 6     the military police as like a civilian police force.  Obviously if in

 7     civilian life there is a problem between people, then you call the police

 8     to solve it.

 9             In the military it is first through the chain of command, whereby

10     the responsibility of the commanders at all command levels is involved,

11     to maintain discipline that's a basic principle.

12        Q.   We agree on that, Mr. Theunens.  You are going to be together for

13     the next two days, so your answers will be much shorter if instead of

14     answering my questions trying to think through what I'm trying to depict,

15     what I'm trying to get at, et cetera, if you just answer and stick to the

16     basic question that I'm asking you and give me the basic answer without

17     the extra spin to try to defeat whatever you think I'm trying to prove,

18     we'll get through this a lot quicker.  Okay.

19             Now, Mr. Susak on the 2nd said "military police must be more

20     energetic in its actions and must prevent all offences, right?

21        A.   Yes, that's what the text says.

22        Q.   Let's get to the part where it says "political affairs workers

23     must carry out their task of appropriately briefing HV members."  That

24     might be as clear to the Trial Chamber as to what is referenced by that.

25     You having read the Military District orders to the political affairs

Page 12619

 1     workers, what does that refer to?

 2        A.   One of the aspects which is, I believe, important in this context

 3     is that the assistant commander for political affairs as well as through

 4     the political affairs chain have to brief the military personnel about

 5     the importance of abiding by the laws of armed conflict also about --

 6     they brief them on morale issues, i.e., keep motivation high and explain

 7     them why the upcoming operation important, and again as I pointed out why

 8     they have to abide by rules, regulations, including the international

 9     laws of war.  And laws of armed conflict.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could turn to page 5 of this

12     document.

13        Q.   We saw Mr. Lausic's notes on the 2nd at 10.00, and now we're

14     turning to page 5 of his notes which references the meeting -- I don't

15     think we're on the right page in the Croatian version.  I think it's the

16     page prior in the Croatian.  Actually it starts on the page prior.

17             It is a meeting at 1730 hours, meeting in the minister's office,

18     according to Mr. Lausic.  The persons present at this meeting on the 2nd

19     at 5.30 p.m. are Minister Susak, Minister Jarnjak, MUP assistant Minister

20     Josko Moric, and obviously Mr. Lausic himself.

21             Now they're discussing at the meeting at 5.30 the agreement on

22     two issues:  On the check-points in the combat zone combat operations

23     zones on possible refugees, Minister Jarnjak makes comments, "it cannot

24     be the same model as Operation Flash as more places will be occupied.

25     The military police follow the front line and the civilian police enter

Page 12620

 1     populated areas."

 2             If we turn the page, the rest of the discussion about which

 3     highways are going to be closed down, military police must announce

 4     passage of military convoys, et cetera, et cetera.

 5             So let's establish first of all there's a meeting between those

 6     four individuals meaning two ministers and their top assistant ministers

 7     on police issues at 5.30 on the 2nd of August, and now --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have -- just a moment

 9     please.  Exhibit D794, please.

10        Q.   In Exhibit D794 you see that the next day, after the meeting at

11     the top level, there's a working meeting held between the heads of the

12     Ministry of the Interior, as well as the heads of the military police

13     administration, and the SIS administration, on the 3rd of August.

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes, indeed, I see that.

16        Q.   And it says it's a working meeting of the top officials held in

17     the MUP, devoted to coordinating the actions of the MUP, military police

18     and SIS in preparation of and during the planned offensive activities of

19     the HV in the coming herd.

20             "The meeting began at 1300 hours and the following persons were

21     present."

22             If you look through you see who was present from the MUP, who was

23     present from the military police administration and SIS.  You will not

24     that only is General Gotovina not present, but no one from the military

25     chain of command is present at this time meeting.  Do you agree with

Page 12621

 1     that?  When I say "military chain of command," I mean from the Main Staff

 2     down that line.

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Okay.  You -- I have seen this document.  Correct?

 5        A.   I believe, but I'm not 100 percent sure, and I have to cope with

 6     the technical limitations that when have you a military document it is

 7     nice to be able to flip through it and see who signed which is most of

 8     the times indicated at the end and just to scan it, but I mean I accept

 9     technical limitations.  What I try to do is review the documents after my

10     cross-examination because I have the privilege of having access to them

11     via e-court in my office.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, if you look through this when you get a chance, you

13     see that they discuss the details at the working meeting of all the

14     technical aspects of working out security traffic, those types of issues

15     that you would have in restoring security to a liberated area, okay?

16             Now, I ask you and I'm going to back now, but I wanted to point

17     that out to you that there's a follow-up meeting on the 3rd after the

18     meeting of the two ministers and their police assistants on the 2nd.

19     There's a working meeting held to implement the details of their

20     agreement.  If you look at page 3 of this document, and this will be -- I

21     just want you to note it because I'm going to go back and discuss this.

22             Page 3 in the English and the section where Major-General

23     Mate Lausic is speaking he says in the second bullet point, he talks

24     about the main negative experiences in Operation Flash were the

25     following ...

Page 12622

 1             And then the last sentence of the second bullet appointed is:

 2             "He also emphasised that he now authorised UVP and military

 3     police administration officers to replace the commanders of VP units on

 4     the spot should they notice any irregularities in their work."

 5             Does that indicate to you that these UVP officer have the power

 6     -- do you agree that they have the power to replace, for example,

 7     battalion -- military police battalion commanders on the spot if there

 8     are any irregularities in their work?

 9        A.   Yes.  That is, in my view, in line with the doctrine, because we

10     are talking about specialized units with specialized personal.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Let's go to, Mr.  Registrar, to Exhibit D267,

12     please.

13             And if we could go to page 4 in the English, please.

14        Q.   This is the order, just so yo usee it.  It is the 2nd

15     August order issued by General Lausic to all of the subordinated military

16     police battalions and other military police assets regarding -- we'll get

17     the subject line, preparations of military police units to perform

18     military police tasks in the areas of responsibility of the Croatian army

19     Military Districts during upcoming operations.

20             And if we read page 10, second paragraph -- I'm paragraph 10, I

21     apologise, second paragraph:

22             "I appoint major Ivan Juric in a group of officers from the

23     regular VP section and the VP administration crime section to assist in

24     commanding and organizing the activities of the 72nd VP battalion and

25     73rd Split VP Battalion, that shall perform tasks in its own area of

Page 12623

 1     responsibility and provide necessary civilian to the 72th VP battalion.

 2     The commanders of the 72nd VP battalion and 73rd VP battalion shall be

 3     subordinated to Major Ivan Juric."

 4             Now, if we go to the next page in the English, the first bullet

 5     point, he says what the reporting requirements are, and he says:

 6             "The commanders of the 72nd VP Battalion and the 73rd VP

 7     Battalion shall report to major Ivan Juric, who shall report to the VP

 8     administration until 2000 hours every day starting from 4 August 1995."

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   Indeed.

11        Q.   So the 72nd Military Police Battalion commander, Major Budimir,

12     is to report to Major Juric, Major Juric is then to file a report with

13     General Lausic.  Correct?

14        A.   Indeed.  But in this order, I -- because I discuss it on English

15     page 208 of part 2 of the report, Lausic also confirms the subordination

16     of the military police within the daily operational chain of command to

17     the operational commanders.  So again it is confirmations of Articles 8

18     and 9 whereby to facilitate the command and control over 72nd and 73th.

19     General Lausic appoints Major Ivan Juric.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's now turn to Exhibit D268, please.

21             While we are flipping to that, do you see and agree with me that

22     when you read the document I just showed you combined with the notes of

23     the meeting on the 3rd with the MUP officials where Mr. Lausic said that

24     these UVP administration officers had the power to replace commanders in

25     the field that Major Juric had the authority from General Lausic to

Page 12624

 1     replace Major Budimir if he found that there were irregularities in his

 2     work?

 3        A.   Yes, as I said that was in line with Articles 8 and 9 of the 1994

 4     military police regulations, as well as what is described in Croatian

 5     armed forces doctrine as the professional line, whereby a distinction is

 6     made between command and control along the professional line on the one

 7     hand, and command and control along the direct or operational line on the

 8     other hand.  And that can be find on English page 130, part 1, of my

 9     report.

10        Q.   Let me ask you a background question, Mr. Theunens.

11             Do you agree that General Lausic could not issue an order to

12     General Gotovina?

13        A.   Not directly.  However, I have seen an example and that is on the

14     9th of August, in his overview report on the activity of the military

15     police, General Lausic includes a sentence where he says, I please

16     request that the military police units be relieved of combat tasks and

17     can return or can turn to regular military police tasks.

18             This report by Lausic covers all military police units throughout

19     Croatia.  Now, his report is sent to Mr. Susak, General Cervenko, and if

20     I remember well also the Military District Commanders.  And the day after

21     he issues an order to the effect that military police units should be

22     relieved from combat tasks and should carry out regular military police

23     tasks, this order is based on an instruction of Mr. Susak, and it is send

24     to the Military District Commanders, all of them.

25             Subsequently to this order by Lausic, General Gotovina issues an

Page 12625

 1     order to his Operational Group commanders, to implement Lausic's order,

 2     i.e., to relieve the military police units of combat tasks and allow them

 3     to carry out regular military police tasks.

 4        Q.   Well, I think we need to clarify some of your answers there.

 5        A.   And if you allow, I can just give you the references.

 6        Q.   I'm going to put it on the screen right now, okay.

 7        A.   All right.

 8        Q.   And we'll go back to the document that is on the screen now.  But

 9     while you've gone off on this topic now, let's cover it.

10             MR. MISETIC:  D837, Mr.  Registrar, please.

11        Q.   This is -- oh, sorry.

12             This is an order, it's not issued to General Gotovina, as you

13     said.  It's issued to the military police battalions about removing the

14     combat units, right?  If you scroll down in the English?

15        A.   Yes.  But could can we see the end of the document.

16        Q.   I'll show you the end.  Hold on.

17        A.   Okay.

18        Q.   "With the aim of deploying the anti-sabotage units of the

19     military police ... in order to search, mop up the liberated territory of

20     the Republic of Croatia.  I hereby ..."

21             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page, please.

22        Q.   "... order all military police units engaged in combat activities

23     are to be disengaged from the areas of combat activities at 0700 hours on

24     the 10th of August."

25             And then talks about anti-tank battalions, et cetera being given.

Page 12626

 1             If we go down to see "the delivery submitted to," and then the

 2     last line is:  "To the attention of."

 3             If we could go to the Croatian version, please, signature line.

 4     Meaning:  For information.  Right?

 5        A.   Indeed.  And that is what I meant to say, and this is a referred

 6     to in part 2 of my report, English page 226.

 7        Q.   Well, this is an important distinction though, because we got off

 8     on this topic now because you wanted to such that General Lausic to

 9     indirectly issue an order to General Gotovina which is not what this

10     document is doing.

11        A.   What this document is doing is issuing an order to a unit that is

12     part of the units of General Gotovina, i.e., the military police unit of

13     General Gotovina, and that's why it is important.

14        Q.   Well, this is sort of -- if I may use the expression putting the

15     cart before the horse, because you have already concluded that

16     General Gotovina's units, and therefore you're interpretations flow from

17     that.  My -- my specific remember, this is a document that you and I

18     talked about yesterday.  When I talked about what would happen now, you

19     have seen the order by General Lausic.  It is given to General Gotovina

20     for information.

21             Ten minutes after General Gotovina receives this order, he issues

22     another order to Mr. Budimir that says, You are not to withdraw the

23     anti-terrorist platoons.  You are to ignore the order by General Lausic,

24     and you are to continue doing the tasks that you have been doing until

25     now.

Page 12627

 1             I believe your answer to me was in that situation, General

 2     Gotovina's order would prevail, right?

 3        A.   I would first like to address your comment where you state that

 4     the 72nd Military Police Battalion is not a unit of the Split Military

 5     District.

 6        Q.   I didn't say that.  Where did I say that?

 7        A.   You state in page 21, line 9, "if I may use the expression

 8     putting the cart before the horse, because you have already concluded

 9     that General Gotovina's units, and therefore your interpretation flows

10     from that," I understood that in the sense that you -- in your view the

11     72nd Military Police Battalion is not a unit of General Gotovina, whereas

12     based on my analysis and, for example, 65 ter 5768 is a table of manpower

13     which mentions the 72nd Military Police Battalion among the units of the

14     Split Military District.  This is one prior to Operation Storm.

15             There are similar tables during Operation Storm.  10th of

16     August we have 65 ter 4584 --

17        Q.   Mr. Theunens.  Yes but I'm -- you're citing a bunch the documents

18     that we're going to have to enter into evidence.  Your string-citing

19     documents and they are not in answer to my question, because you

20     misunderstood what I said in the first place.  So if we could hold off on

21     the tangential issues that you find in my questions, and let's focus

22     again in on what I'm asking you.

23        A.   Yes.  But the key issue is to who does the 72nd Military Police

24     Battalion belong.

25        Q.   And that's why I asked you the question quite specifically at the

Page 12628

 1     end, which was it's your position -- it's your position that had

 2     General Gotovina issued an order saying, Ignore this order by

 3     General Lausic.  Your position is because you believe this unit is a unit

 4     of the Split Military District, that General Gotovina's order prevails.

 5     I'm just trying to establish your position.  I'm not so much worried that

 6     you can try and figure out my position.

 7        A.   But yesterday you were asking a hypothetical question, and I

 8     stated well, I give a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.

 9     Referring to this -- to the document -- I mean the order by Lausic which

10     is sent for information to the Military District Commanders, there is a

11     response by Gotovina in a sense that he forwards the order to his

12     military police units, whereby he basically confirms what General Lausic

13     orders.  And that is 65 ter 884, page 226 of my report.

14        Q.   Okay.  How does that answer my question?

15        A.   Well, I mean I'm confused by the hypothetical question.  So I'm

16     trying to give you a concrete question -- a concrete answer to a concrete

17     document.  I mean, the concrete document being the document -- the order

18     by General Lausic.

19        Q.   I'm trying to use a concrete example to try to figure out what

20     your understanding is of the interrelationship between General Lausic's

21     role with the military police and General Gotovina's role, which your

22     further answer and further cites the 65 ters doesn't help me.

23             So let's focus in on it, and say my hypothetical now is:  Based

24     on this document that General Gotovina one hour later issued an order

25     saying, Ignore this order by General Lausic, your position is

Page 12629

 1     General Gotovina's subsequent order prevails?

 2        A.   That was my position in relation to a hypothetical question.  Now

 3     we have a concrete situation, and I cannot deny a concrete document.

 4     And, in my view, the answer to a concrete question whereby I can see

 5     documents and draw conclusions from these documents is more relevant than

 6     speculating about hypothetical questions and hypothetical answers.

 7        Q.   Well, part -- if I may say that part of what I believe the role

 8     of the expert witness is is to help the Trial Chamber understand the

 9     overall picture and the overall relationship between the two.

10             I am using this specific example so that you can assist all of us

11     in the courtroom, if you can, to explain that general relationship which

12     we're all going to having to figure out in this trial.

13             To let me focus in again.  In this specific case what happens if

14     General Gotovina issues a counterorder?  Is it your position that

15     General Gotovina's order prevails?

16        A.   No.  Your Honours, my position is that paragraph 5 of D35 would

17     apply, which means that General Lausic's order would prevail

18     theoretically, because I assume that General Gotovina would consult

19     General Cervenko, would consult Mr. Susak, and that on that level

20     agreement would be found, because I will also assume that

21     General Gotovina would have good reasons to say to General Lausic, Look,

22     I can't have my military police do what you order them to do by this

23     order, because this and this reason, and that then, as is done in the

24     military staff and a military environment, there is a dialogue between

25     all people concerned in order to come to a satisfactory solution.

Page 12630

 1             This is not a quiz.

 2        Q.   But this is it also a military in realtime where seconds and

 3     minutes matter.  Do you agree with me?  In a combat situation you need to

 4     know whose order prevails, right?  You don't have time to hold a

 5     mediation session.  You don't have time for consultations.  You need to

 6     know the hierarchy.  That is how the military functions in all

 7     militaries; doesn't it?

 8        A.   Indeed, but that is why there is paragraph 5 in D35 to deal with

 9     these kind of issues, i.e., when there appears to be a conflict between

10     orders through the operational chain and orders through the professional

11     chain.

12        Q.   So the answer is General Lausic wins.  I'm not disagreeing with

13     you.

14        A.   I wouldn't call it that he wins, but based on D35, Lausic's order

15     would reveal.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now if we could go back to the document I

17     had on the screen which is --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Just ask a question.  I'm just verifying that I

19     understand what this issue is about, which is of a rather technical

20     nature.

21             Article 8, Article 9, they give not very precise, defined command

22     structures.  Of course you say Article 8, Article 9 is clearly -- makes a

23     distinction between the two lines of command.

24             Now, what happened yesterday apparently was that you were asked

25     about whose orders would prevail, and you very much resisted to answer

Page 12631

 1     that question, which was put to you in a rather abstract nature, and I

 2     got the impression at that time, when you said, Give me a document and

 3     I'll tell you that you were struggling with under what circumstances

 4     exactly Article 8, and on what subjects or circumstances exactly

 5     Article 9 would apply.  I think you had difficulties in giving an

 6     abstract answer on the orders of the one would prevail or the orders of

 7     the other would prevail, because I understood your testimony that it

 8     depended exactly on what was the content of the order, would it fit in

 9     Article 8, would it fit in Article 9?

10             Now, today, apparently, you are given an example, a document,

11     where apparently there is the one claiming that the military police

12     should do what he has ordered, Lausic, and that apparently this is

13     challenged, or there is an competing claim of command on the specific

14     issue of this document.  And the one issues an order under Article -- and

15     the other ones gives an order which is under the other Article, so there

16     are two competing claims, apparently in an area where it might not be

17     that easy, or perhaps it is easy, to define exactly whether they are

18     working within the scope of Article 8 or Article 9.

19             Again, apparently the issue is whose orders prevail?  And I

20     understand from your answers that, still, that is to be assessed on the

21     basis of the specific order, time, place, all circumstances, whether it

22     is the professional command as you said, or the other -- I think you

23     called it the direct command.

24             THE WITNESS:  Or the operational command, just the same, Your

25     Honours.

Page 12632

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my information, have I understood your

 2     testimony correctly because a lot of questions have been put, a lot of

 3     answer have been given, a lot of pushing, and a lot of resistance in

 4     answering, I noticed, and I just wanted to be sure for myself that I

 5     understood your testimony correctly, and if Mr. Misetic would think that

 6     I need further details or further matters to know, he will certainly ask

 7     you any additional questions.

 8             But I just wanted to make a short stop and verify whether I had

 9     lost track or not, or not yet.

10             THE WITNESS:  No, Mr. President, you have provided correct

11     picture of my answers and of the issue at stake.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Misetic, not to say that this is the last.

13     I said I wanted to make a midway stop just to see whether I was on track,

14     totally different from where you and/or Mr. Theunens were.

15             MR. MISETIC:  I think y ou were, so I'm going to go back into it

16     further.

17        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I asked about this specific order.  If we go back

18     to the first page of this document, please I'm sorry, my mistake

19     [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I said to see whether I was on track totally

21     different from where you and/or Mr. Theunens were.  You said and

22     that's -- you were, so I'm on the wrong track.  As far as Mr. Theunens

23     concerned, apparently I'm not, but I'm on the wrong track as far as you

24     are concerned, and I give you all opportunity to further clarify what you

25     think is the right track and which is apparently a different track from

Page 12633

 1     what I understood Mr. Theunens track to be.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I understood Mr. Theunens and I to be on the same

 3     page at the end, which now I understand given his answer to your question

 4     that he and I are not on the same page anymore, so we're going to go back

 5     into it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If I could go to the -- the subject is

 8     Disengagement Of Combat Units, and the order says at the top:

 9             "All military police units engaged in combat activities are to be

10     disengaged from the areas of combat activities at 0700 hours."

11             Combat activities, do you consider that professional activities

12     or operational activities?

13        A.   Combat activities are operational activities.

14        Q.   Now your answer when I put this order to you was that under

15     paragraph 5 of D35, your answer to me was General Lausic would prevail.

16     So I'm not confused because this is an order to remove combat units from

17     operational activity issued by General Lausic, right, and you answered

18     that D35, paragraph 5 meant that in the event of a conflict between

19     General Gotovina and General Lausic, General Lausic would reveal.

20             Now in response to the Presiding Judge's questions you have made

21     a distinction between whether the issue dealt with professional

22     activities or operational activities, and so I put it to you, and I'm

23     going put it to you, there is no distinction between professional

24     activities or operational activities in the event of any decision by

25     General Lausic and order with respect military police units, whether

Page 12634

 1     they're engaged operationally or whether they are engaged in professional

 2     tasks, his orders prevail under paragraph 5 of D35.

 3             Do you agree?

 4        A.   Mr. President, I think we're mixing up things.  Because what the

 5     Presiding Judge described is my position in relation to the distinction

 6     between the professional line and the operational line.  And the

 7     Presiding Judge also highlighted that it is very difficult or impossible

 8     for me to give an answer to an abstract or a hypothetical question, and I

 9     would prefer to see the document.

10             Independent of whether this specific document dealt with

11     professional issues or operational issues.  Here we a have order by

12     General Lausic which follows, and I think it is important to mention a

13     request he has included in his report to the minister of defence, which

14     is also send to the Military District Commanders the day before, the

15     order here does not show whether there has been any consultation between

16     General Lausic, Mr. Susak, and the Military District Commanders as to

17     well, what do we do with that request of General Lausic, what we see is

18     that a day after his request, he issues this order which indeed it covers

19     operational matters because it's the operational use of military police

20     units who are being used for combat activities, and we see and I have

21     also included that in my report on page 226 that this order is abided by

22     or is implemented by General Gotovina and that he issues an order to his

23     OGs, 65 ter 2316, in order to implement Lausic's order and relieve the

24     military police units of combat tasks, and again it is a very specific

25     situation, and therefore I can answer that question.

Page 12635

 1             In other situations the answer may be different, and that'd why,

 2     as the Presiding Judge summarized, it is important to look at the

 3     specifics and to look at the documents.

 4        Q.   Okay.  But I want to make sure that we agree -- and this is an

 5     example even -- in respect to military police in operational matters

 6     General Lausic, at least in this example, under paragraph 5 of D35, his

 7     order would prevail over General Gotovina's order.

 8        A.   That's correct, yeah.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

10             Now --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Just now for me to understand, is the specific issue

12     here that he did not issue an order on his own but that there was a

13     higher level communication about what to do under those circumstances?

14     Is that what you here say that the order prevails, or is it on the basis

15     of the structure itself?

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I -- in my view this order has to be

17     seen notice context of the situation.  This order dates from the 9th of

18     August.  Certain patterns are visible throughout the areas that have been

19     recaptured by the Croatian forces.  And these patterns of activities and

20     of incidents directly affect the role -- sorry, I rephrase it.  Fall

21     within the competencies of the military police.

22             Now General Lausic sees that the military police units are mainly

23     used for combat tasks.  He based on this order and the request he issued

24     a day before, has a different view on the use of military police in the

25     liberated areas, and considers that the military police should actually

Page 12636

 1     be used for military police tasks.

 2             Therefore, this order is issued to the military police units in

 3     the Military Districts for the Military District Commanders.  Now, the

 4     fact that General Gotovina on his turn issues an order to his military

 5     police -- to his OGs, I apologise, to his OGs, 65 ter 2316, in order to

 6     relieve the military police units from combat tasks shows that

 7     General Gotovina also plays a role in this chain of command, i.e., in the

 8     command over the military police, and there is no -- it's not about an

 9     academic interpretation or whether it is Article 8 or 9.  I do agree with

10     Mr. Misetic that here in this order we actually deal with matters that

11     should be covered by Article 9, but in any event the order is issued.

12             Now, if you would use this order to generalise the situation --

13     and state or draw certain conclusions in relation to the role of General

14     Gotovina and/or General Lausic in the area of command and control over

15     the military police, well, there is lots of other documents which are

16     included in my report that actually show that also General Gotovina --

17     General Gotovina is in a position to issue orders to the military police,

18     and I emphasise that the 72nd Military Police Battalion is a unit of the

19     Split Military District.

20             And I apologise for being so long, but this is not a yes or no,

21     or a black or white situation.  There is a lot of grey and I tried to

22     clarify that.

23             MR. MISETIC:

24        Q.   Well, Mr. Theunens, I will get back to you later on there point

25     that you seem to think that this order by General Lausic required another

Page 12637

 1     order by General Gotovina.  I'll put to that you we'll deal with this

 2     issue now that you have raised yet another issue, but can you explain to

 3     me why General Lausic sends an order.  It is clearly addressed amongst

 4     others the 72nd Military Police Battalion VP Split.  Are you saying now

 5     that that order has no effect unwilling now General Gotovina gets

 6     involved on issues his own order, or are you perhaps confusing the fact

 7     that General Gotovina issues an act of defence order in which he reports

 8     what is is now happening with the anti-terrorist units of the military

 9     police?

10             Correct me if I'm wrong, there is no need for a second order by

11     General Gotovina to the 72nd MPs once Mr. Lausic has issued an order, is

12     there?

13        A.   I stated that there is an order from General Gotovina to his OGs

14     in order to relieve the military police from combat tasks, and we would

15     benefit from seeing 65 ter 2316 on the monitor, and then we can see it

16     all.

17        Q.   Well, I'm going to back to you later on because I would like to

18     keep the tempo going, but we will certainly deal with at a later point.

19             But right now, let's go back to D268, please.

20             This is an order from the 2nd of August, reinforcement of the

21     72nd Military Police Battalion.  If we turn to page 2 at the bottom.  It

22     says, number one is a group number one is a group of UVP officers led by

23     Major Ivan Juric.  It talks about others from the general VP department,

24     Ante Glavan who is from the crime police section of the military police

25     administration.  That group is formed, and it says:

Page 12638

 1             "Major Ivan Juric's task in the command system, he is superior to

 2     the 72nd VP and 73rd VP commanders with regard to the 73rd VP extending

 3     assistance to the 72nd VP."

 4             And if we could turn the page:

 5             "He is responsible for the implementation of all military police

 6     tasks in the 72nd VP zone of responsibility."

 7             Then the final two points:

 8             "He is authorised to undertake all measures to ensure efficient

 9     and effective implementation of military police tasks in the 72nd

10     military police and north OS zones of responsibility."

11             And finally:

12             "Reporting shall be pursuant to order of the chief of the UVP ...

13     dated 2 August 1995."

14             And that is the order we have already seen which was D267 saying

15     that at 8.00 p.m. every night Juric is supposed to send a report after

16     having received reports from the 72nd and 73rd.

17             Now if we go to Exhibit D26 --

18        A.   Yes, Your Honours there is also a paragraph that you didn't read

19     out where it states that in relation to Juric he shall cooperate and

20     coordinate the implementation of tasks with the workers of civilian

21     police or the police administration Ministry of Interior as well as the

22     Split Military District and the assistant commander for security an

23     information --

24        Q.   That is an important point, isn't it?

25        A.   Yeah, that is important.

Page 12639

 1        Q.   Yeah.

 2        A.   But I just wanted to -- mention it for the record that this is

 3     also included that Juric indeed exercises the authorities as defined by

 4     Lausic over the 72nd and 73rd, but he coordinated and cooperates with

 5     civilian police, SIS, as well as the operational commanders.

 6        Q.   And I thank you actually for bringing that to my attention,

 7     because that is relevant to a point that you raised on direct.  It

 8     doesn't say Juric is subordinated to the Split Military District; it says

 9     he shall cooperate and coordinate with the Split Military District, and

10     there is no difference -- distinction made between his cooperation and

11     coordination with the Split Military District and MUP, right?

12        A.   No, but the command and control arrangements for the military

13     police have not changed.  And we have seen that D35 confirms the 1994

14     military police rules, so there is no need to emphasise it again.

15        Q.   There is an immediate to emphasise it Mr. Theunens because

16     Major Juric is not part of the Split Military District.  He is not

17     subordinated to the Split Military District, is he?

18        A.   I --

19        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ...  show me the order where Major Juric

20     is subordinated to the commander of the Split Military District.

21        A.   I have seen no orders indicating that Major Juric is subordinated

22     to the Split Military District, but as I see his role as coordinator,

23     i.e., to facilitate command and control over 72nd and 73rd in the aspect

24     of 73rd providing assistant to the 72nd as is indicated in -- in the

25     order we see now, I don't think that that is of relevance for the command

Page 12640

 1     and control over the Split Military District military police.

 2        Q.   Well, I do see it as relevant, and correct me if I'm wrong, but

 3     we've now gone through the process where Major Juric -- it says that the

 4     commanders of the 72nd and 73rd are subordinated to Major Juric.

 5     Major Juric has the power to replace the commanders of the 72nd and 73rd

 6     if he finds irregularities in their work.  That is more than a

 7     coordinator; isn't it?

 8        A.   If we see the first page of this order, or the second page,

 9     sorry.

10             So at he bottom we see Juric the task is to shall superior --

11     excuse me, superior to the 72nd and the 73rd with regard to the 73rd

12     extending assistant to the 72nd.

13        Q.   Yes you ignore the next page.

14        A.   No, I'm not ignoring it.  I'm just trying to explain.

15        Q.   Please take in the next sentence, as you are fond of saying, you

16     take one sentence out of isolation, so let's look at the next sentence.

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18        Q.   He is responsible for the implementation of all military police

19     tasks in the 72nd VP zone of responsibility.

20             Right?

21        A.   Yes.  But he can be responsible to General Lausic or to

22     General Gotovina.

23        Q.   Well, have you found any evidence at all to indicate that he

24     either received an order from General Gotovina or issued one report to

25     General Gotovina?

Page 12641

 1        A.   Not to General Gotovina, but there are documents -- there is at

 2     least one document included in my report, and if I remember well, it's 65

 3     ter 419, where we see that Major Juric is in contact with -- he is

 4     meeting and coordinating with an Operational Group commander.

 5        Q.   That is because he is meeting with MUP, SIS, Split Military

 6     District, that is the point you just highlighted in this document, isn't

 7     it?  That's his job, to coordinate?

 8        A.   Yes.  But there is no references to MUP or SIS in that particular

 9     document.

10        Q.   Does it have to be in a particular document for you to know that

11     he is coordinating with the MUP?  Do you disagree now that he was

12     coordinating with the MUP while he was there?

13        A.   That is not what I'm saying, Your Honours.  What I'm saying is

14     that in 65 ter 419, we see that Major Juric is in -- call it operational

15     contact with an operational commander and this commander is a subordinate

16     of General Gotovina.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now let's go back to the question that I asked, and if you

18     could again focus.  Did you find a report either an order from

19     General Gotovina to Juric, or did you ever find Juric reporting to

20     General Gotovina in written form?  Did you find any such documents?

21        A.   I haven't found or I haven't come across such a document.  The

22     closest document, if I can express myself that way, is the operational

23     diary, where a -- an unidentified representative of the military police,

24     sometimes he is identified as the commander of the 72nd Military Police

25     Battalion attends the working meetings of the Split Military District

Page 12642

 1     Command and its subordinate commanders.

 2        Q.   Now, I'm glad you said that because what your answer now reveals

 3     to me is that you actually went and looked for such orders to Juric or

 4     reporting by Juric to General Gotovina.  Right?

 5        A.   I don't remember that I did a specific search for any contact

 6     between General Gotovina and Major Juric.  What I did is searches on key

 7     words, on numbers of orders.  I did indeed searches and extensive

 8     searches in order to determine how Articles 8 and 9 of the 1994 military

 9     police regulations were implemented prior to, during, and after Storm,

10     and these searches would also have revealed any documents indicating

11     contacts between General Gotovina and Major Juric.

12        Q.   Now, you're a military man.  You want to assert that Juric was

13     subordinated to General Gotovina.  Well --

14        A.   Sorry, I haven't said that.

15        Q.   Well, so who is he subordinated to?

16        A.   Well, Juric is sent by General Lausic to facilitate the command

17     and control -- I mean, I would like to quote the document literally so

18     to -- if we could see the previous page again.

19        Q.   I'm not -- I would think, Mr. Theunens, that it shouldn't be that

20     hard of a question.  Mr. Juric is sent into the field, he is a military

21     man.  Starting with President Tudjman on down, can he tell me who his

22     next superior officer is?

23        A.   Well, he is sent by General Lausic.

24        Q.   I know who he is sent by.  Who is his -- who is he a subordinate

25     of?

Page 12643

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you say it should not be that difficult

 2     to answer the question.  Apparently the witness finds it difficult to

 3     answer the question.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  No, I don't think he does, Judge.  I think he knows

 5     and just doesn't want to answer, which is my frustration is here because

 6     he knows the answer to the question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  He just said he's not subordinated to General

 9     Gotovina, Judge, so who -- who is left?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because you say it's a simple question and

11     apparently the witness considers it's a more complex question, and I

12     would invite you to allow him to explain if he disagrees with you on

13     certain matters.

14             Mr. Theunens.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Mr. President, I confirm that I have not come

16     across documents that indicate that Major Ivan Juric is subordinated to

17     General Gotovina.  And therefore, based on this document, I conclude that

18     he is subordinated, at least according to the professional chain, to

19     General Lausic, chief of the military police administration.

20             MR. MISETIC:  That is the answer I wanted to get to.

21        Q.   Now, here is the question, and if you need more time we're coming

22     up on a break but I would like an answer to this question.

23             You have seen documents now on the 2nd of August there is a

24     meeting between two ministers, Jarnjak and Susak.  Their two top aides

25     for police matters are also present at the meeting.  On the 3rd there is

Page 12644

 1     a working meeting between MUP and the military police and SIS to

 2     implement the agreement reached the day before between the two ministers.

 3             Do you agree with me that there is no person in the military

 4     chain of command, meaning from the Main Staff on down, that is present at

 5     this working meeting to create a plan?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   My question is this:  From a military perspective, General Lausic

 8     does not issue orders to General Gotovina.  There is no one present at

 9     this meeting who can issue an order to General Gotovina or any Military

10     District Commander.  Let's not put this only on General Gotovina because

11     Operation Storm deals with the Split Military District, the Gospic

12     Military District, the Karlovac Military District.  We have multiple

13     Military District commanders who take part in Operation Storm.  My

14     question for you is this, and if can you help me with the logic of this:

15     Two ministers reach an agreement, their subordinates in the civilian

16     ministries implement a plan, and then this plan is left to be implemented

17     by people, military people, who aren't present at the meetings and who

18     have no obligation to implement this plan, do they, because there is no

19     order from anyone in the military line requiring them to implement

20     anything that is agreed upon at these meetings.

21             Now, I'm just going to put it to you that my position is that

22     General Lausic is the one at the meeting with the power to implement the

23     plan through the military police units.  I'd like to know from you, since

24     it's your -- as I understand your position, it is not General Lausic's

25     job on a daily operational level or it's not his job that he can

Page 12645

 1     implement the plans for security, that that is left to the zone

 2     commanders.  How is it from a military perspective that plans can be

 3     drawn up and then not given to, for example, General Cervenko to pass an

 4     order to all the Military District Commanders that this is how the plan

 5     is supposed to function?  Why is it left, in your view, to just

 6     apparently -- if General Gotovina wants to implement it, he can; if

 7     General Norac in Gospic wants to implement it, he can, maybe they can a

 8     la carte chose different parts of the plan that they like, that they

 9     don't like.  Who -- what is the authority that, in your view, required

10     Military District Commanders to implement a plan that was agreed upon

11     between two ministries?

12        A.   When I was referring to the security plan, I referred to the

13     security plan of, I believe it was OG Zadar which was 65 ter 171.  I'm

14     not sure about which plan you're talking now --

15        Q.   Let me clarify right there.  You're talking about the security

16     plans within the Split Military District for Operation Oluja/Kozjak that

17     are done by the 2nd of August; correct?  Those orders are issued 1st and

18     2nd of August; right?

19        A.   Indeed.

20        Q.   Subsequent to that, those orders, I have taken you through

21     documents now to show there is another meeting at the ministerial level,

22     a working meeting that takes place, this is what we are going to do, this

23     is how MUP and the military police are going to coordinate their

24     activities, et cetera, et cetera.  There's no presence of military,

25     meaning military chain of command, and I don't mean Mr. Lausic here --

Page 12646

 1        A.   No, no.

 2        Q.   -- at the meeting, yet you want to suggest that operationally

 3     they're subordinated to General Gotovina so presumably your position

 4     would be that if that is the plan reached between Jarnjak and Susak and

 5     worked out by their subordinates, that that plan had to be implemented by

 6     the district commanders, Norac, Basarac, Gotovina, et cetera?

 7             My question to you is, how do you jump from essentially what is

 8     civilian government plan to restore security, coordinate activities,

 9     et cetera, and then just leave it to people who have no legal obligation

10     to implement the plan?  Because it hasn't been given to General Cervenko

11     to say we're now going to coordinate with MUP, zone commanders this is

12     what you are supposed to do, this is the agreement between Susak and

13     Jarnjak, I sign off on the agreement as your commander and here is what

14     you are going to do, and here is how you are going to coordinate, and

15     here is where the check-points are going to be set up.

16             I -- okay.  Let me hear your answer.

17        A.   The meeting you refer to with -- between the ministers of

18     interior and including also Mr. Moric and General Lausic, if I remember

19     the document well, we saw had two major topics, check-points and

20     refugees, and it is logical that at the highest level one agrees about a

21     uniform approach, i.e., in the manner how shall we organise check-points,

22     how will the military police and the civilian police cooperate, how will

23     we organise this.  Not only in relation to check-points but also in the

24     treatment of refugees.  And then subsequently, there is an agreement

25     about the common approach by the entire territory that is to be

Page 12647

 1     recaptured whereby the specific measures, I mean, for example, the

 2     specific location of check-points, obviously the military -- the local

 3     military police commander will make a proposal to his operational

 4     commander as to where they are to be located, but we have discussed

 5     documents - and I have included those in my report - that the operational

 6     commander, be it General Gotovina or his Chief of Staff Brigadier Ademi,

 7     or even OG commanders, can order the military police to organise

 8     check-points in particular locations.

 9        Q.   Okay.  This is my final question, Your Honour, before the break.

10             Is it not more logical to you, Mr. Theunens, that the agreement

11     was reached between the two ministers, a plan was worked out between

12     General Lausic and his subordinates and Mr. Moric and his subordinates on

13     the 3rd, Mr. Lausic then appoints Mr. Juric from his administration in

14     Zagreb to go out in the field with the authority over the 72nd and 73rd

15     MPs to implement what he had agreed at a meeting on the 2nd and 3rd to do

16     and that that's the chain of command as to how these security measures

17     were to be implemented?  Is that also a logical interpretation to you as

18     to how this was supposed to work?

19        A.   Well, theoretically it is a logical interpretation, but from the

20     documents we have discussed, and, for example, the earlier request by

21     Mr. Lausic on the 9th of August where he states, please relieve the

22     military police units from combat tasks, that is, for me, one of several

23     indicators.  And the other indicators are the documents showing that the

24     operational commanders are issuing orders to the military police in their

25     zone of responsibility, that this logic, the theoretical logic you have

Page 12648

 1     described is not implemented in practice.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I'm going continue on this topic, so I think it

 3     might be a good time for a break, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It certainly is time for a break.

 5             We will resume, five minutes past 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you may continue, but perhaps I make

 9     again a short stop --

10             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to see whether ...

12             Thinking about the evidence and your questions and trying to

13     follow and to understand, it came to my mind at one moment that the

14     command structures, as we find them in 8 and 9, which may create some

15     problems in defining what is exactly in 8 and what is in 9, et cetera,

16     that another element, what is apparently introduced through your

17     questions, is not precisely who is in command on the professional or the

18     operational -- but that there's a higher level, which is availability.

19     Availability to focus on the police tasks, even when performing police

20     tasks, 8 and the would still be in place, so as where to put

21     check-points, what to do, et cetera, at the same time, of course, the

22     professional aspects, for example, uniforms all other kinds of

23     organisational issues.  But it seems that the issues about 8 and 9 and

24     how to resolve conflicts there, that there is an another level, that is

25     not who is in command and on what aspects of the performance of tasks but

Page 12649

 1     also who decides that rather than to focus on police tasks with all the

 2     structures of -- of command and what kind of command, command on what

 3     aspects, who is in charge, also will the military police, primarily, be

 4     put at the disposal of those who are responsible for combat operations;

 5     or will they be, primarily, be at the disposal of those who primarily

 6     deal with the performance of what I would say specific police tasks.

 7             That is an element which, as I said before, came to my mind, and

 8     whether, in terms of command and looking at Article 8 and 9, this

 9     question about, could I say availability or primary focus on one task or

10     the other, whether that would is covered by 8 and 9 is a question, and

11     whether that would be resolved in every respect by conflicts, how to --

12     what the procedure would be if there are conflicts.  If we're talking

13     about conflicts, I can imagine conflicts between -- drawing a line

14     between 8 and 9, but I also can imagine that there may be conflicts on

15     that higher level of availability, primary focus on combat tasks, that's

16     some thoughts that came into my mind and which I briefly discussed with

17     Judge Gwaunza and similar thoughts came to her mind, and sometimes it's

18     -- at least the Chamber considers it wise to share with you what comes

19     into our mind that.  It is not final conclusions but, rather, an

20     understanding or a provisional understanding or analysis and what

21     thoughts are then developed so that you can address that you know what is

22     on our minds, and that you better are in a position to address the

23     matters that came into our mind.

24             Mr. Misetic, I --

25             MR. MISETIC:  I have to confess I'm not sure what the issue is,

Page 12650

 1     but if you allow me, I think I do.  First just let me in terms of

 2     terminology state that we don't accept - and you'll get that later in

 3     cross -  Mr. Theunens's creation of professional and operational lines.

 4     That doesn't appear in the rules, and he is referring to something from

 5     1992 which was cancelled by the order of Mr. Susak on D35.  Although

 6     there is a professional line, that has nothing to do with command and

 7     control.  I think we established, first of all, command and control rests

 8     only with the military police administration.  And command and control as

 9     a military matter, as you are well familiar and you yourself brought it

10     up in this trial, there is an difference between operational command and

11     operational control.  That is going to be the issue in this case.

12             With respect to tasks, I think you also need to keep in mind,

13     Your Honour, Article 10 of the regulations, Article 10 spells out what

14     are the, if I can use the term "permanent tasks" of the military police

15     which when a later witness comes, who will be more familiar with it than

16     Mr. Theunens is, and I don't want to reveal his name now.  There will be

17     a later witness who will explain to you the difference between the

18     permanent tasks of the military police, and if we -- I can bring up P880,

19     if necessary --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I don't think, Mr. Misetic -- I appreciate, of

21     course, that you -- that you respond to this.  At the same time, of

22     course, I was not aiming at triggering a further debate on the matter,

23     but I expressed that these thoughts had come into our minds.  Again, I

24     emphasise, not conclusions but mere thoughts and an attempt to try to

25     understand the issue.  And if you are aware of our thoughts, you also

Page 12651

 1     know better what needs to be corrected or what needs to be clarified, and

 2     I see that you started already clarifying the issue, but it would be no

 3     problem if you do that in the further cross-examination.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Just so that I don't waste any time addressing your

 5     issue, if could specifically tell me what issue you would like to have

 6     addressed.  Are you saying you think it may be who is available to

 7     implement these tasks.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Who decides on availability for certain tasks?

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Mr. Theunens, let's go through this and let's talk about --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to give an example, if today I say, You're not

12     available for combat tasks anymore, and someone else claims that a person

13     should be available for combat tasks, that is a matter a decision on

14     apparently on availability for different --

15             MR. MISETIC:  When we're talking about combat tasks, I think --

16     and if I may, it's an in-house witness, so I don't feel as uncomfortable

17     saying it front of him.  I think Mr. Theunens was incorrect on that

18     point, but I would like now like to go right into it.

19             P880.

20             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I don't want to be argumentative, but

21     it's not me who created or invented the professional and the direct line.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You describe it.  You're not blamed for inventing.

23     Mr. Misetic disagrees with your analysis, which is he doesn't disagree

24     because you invented but because he thinks it's wrong.  So there's no

25     need to defend yourself.  Just answer the questions, Mr. Theunens.

Page 12652

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Registrar, if we could go to Article 10, which is, I believe,

 3     page 5.  If we scroll to the bottom it says:

 4             "The military police perform jobs and tasks relating to the:  1,

 5     protection of life and personal security of military personnel ..."

 6             If we can go to the next page, please.

 7              "Prevention and uncovering of crimes, identification and arrest

 8     of perpetrators of crimes, ... Safety of military traffic ... security of

 9     protected features ..."

10        Q.   Now you raise this point about how Mr. Lausic complained to

11     Mr. Susak, and my understanding of your answer was that somehow he was

12     trying to -- use Mr. Susak to influence General Gotovina so he could get

13     those troops back.

14        A.   Mr. President, as I pointed out, the report by General Lausic

15     addressed the use of the military police all over Croatia, i.e., I have

16     not -- there is no mention specifically of the Split Military District in

17     that document, and that Mr. Lausic reports to Mr. Susak is quite logical

18     because Mr. Lausic is the chief of the military police administration at

19     the Ministry of Defence.

20             So his next superior is Mr. Susak.

21        Q.   Yes.  But that whole issue arose in the context of me asking you

22     a question of whether Mr. Lausic could issue an order to General

23     Gotovina, and you answered not directly, meaning indirectly, and then you

24     said, for example, he contacted Minister Susak, and then subsequently

25     General Lausic issued an order, and then General Gotovina issued an

Page 12653

 1     order.  And implicit, as I understood it - and you correct me if I'm

 2     wrong - implicit in your answer was that he could indirectly issue an

 3     order by appealing to the Ministry of Defence, and then somehow from that

 4     chain it would get to General Gotovina.

 5             Was that your suggestion?

 6        A.   No.  My conclusion is that the commander -- the chief of the

 7     military police administration reports to the Minister of Defence, and

 8     then it is up to the minister of Defence to do or to act upon the

 9     reporting he receives of the chief of the military police administration

10     and to give instructions to the chief of the Main Staff who then gives

11     instructions to his subordinates.  And I only gave the example to answer

12     your question in relation to General Lausic issuing orders to

13     General Gotovina or not, but I didn't suggest or that -- it was an issue

14     of Mr. Susak using his influence over General Gotovina, yes or no.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now if I could turn your attention to subpart 9 in Article

16     10.  It says:

17             "Participation in carrying out combat tasks on the front line,

18     pursuant to orders by the minister of defence of the Republic of

19     Croatia."

20             Now, do you see that the reason Mr. Lausic appealed to

21     Minister Susak first is because it's Minister Susak's order that orders

22     the military police combat units to go participate in combat,

23     particularly here in the Split Military District, and that General Lausic

24     needed his superior's authorisation to then remove them the next day.

25        A.   I have quoted a number of orders from the commander of the Split

Page 12654

 1     Military District in relation to subordination as well as the use of

 2     elements of the 72nd Military Police Battalion as well as reports on the

 3     use of elements of the 73rd Military Police Battalion during Storm for

 4     combat operations, and there is no systematic reference to an order by or

 5     an authorisation given by Mr. Susak.

 6             It would be the easiest if you see these orders.  I think, for

 7     example --

 8        Q.   Mr. --

 9        A.   Excuse me, yeah.

10        Q.   Again I'm focussed on the order of the 9th which is an order that

11     you raised.  So without going into now a long discussion about what you

12     didn't find, I'm asking you specifically in the context of you -- you

13     raising the point that Mr. Lausic wrote to Minister Susak about the

14     combat units, isn't it a fact at that Mr. Lausic, under the existing

15     regulations, needed the authorisation of the Minister Of Defence under

16     Article 10, subpart 9, to remove those units from combat activity?

17        A.   To be precise, General Lausic reports regularly to

18     Minister Susak, but it is correct that the order he issues on the 10th of

19     August refers to a decision of the minister.

20        Q.   Okay.  So now, in this situation, you would agree with me, I hope

21     that we're in a situation where the minister of defence is authorised

22     alone in the rules to authorise use of combat units of the military

23     police, where he revokes that authorisation through an order of the chief

24     of the military police administration.  General Gotovina has no authority

25     to overrule General Lausic or the Minister Of Defence; does he?

Page 12655

 1        A.   Theoretically, he hasn't.

 2        Q.   Theoretically and in practice, right?  You have never seen in

 3     practice General Gotovina overriding an order of the Minister Of Defence;

 4     have you?

 5        A.   No I have seen -- that is another aspect, but I have seen that he

 6     in direct contact with Minister Susak, whereas I would expect him to --

 7     discussing operational matters, where would I would expect him to discuss

 8     these matters with the chief of the Main Staff.

 9        Q.   So the answer is no, you haven't seen him overriding an answer of

10     the Minister Of Defence, correct?

11        A.   That's correct, yeah.

12        Q.   You haven't seen him overriding an order of the chief of the

13     military police administration, correct?

14        A.   You mean an order from the chief military police administration

15     to him or ...

16        Q.   No.

17        A.   Or an order of the chief military police administration to a

18     military police unit of the Split Military District?

19        Q.   First of all, let's take the second, which an order of the chief

20     of the military police administration to the 72nd MP Battalion.

21        A.   No, I have not come across such a document.

22        Q.   And with respect to the first part of your initial request for

23     clarification, he didn't override an order from Mr. Lausic to him because

24     there is no such order from Mr. Lausic to General Gotovina, correct?

25     Meaning ordering General Gotovina to do something, correct?

Page 12656

 1        A.   The 10th of August order we discussed, which goes from

 2     General Lausic to the military police battalions puts the Military

 3     District Commanders for information, so it is not a direct order to

 4     Gotovina, but because it concerns General Gotovina's units, as well as

 5     the units ever other Military District Commanders, he is informed of --

 6     of General Lausic's order.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to understand, because apparently there

 8     is an -- some fear to use the wrong words.

 9             Decisions for the engagement - and I add to that then for

10     disengagement as well - of police forces of the military police.  In

11     combat operations on the front line are the competence of the minister of

12     defence to decide is that --

13             THE WITNESS:  That is what Article 9 says, Mr. President, in

14     general terms.  But he is not going to get involved with each and every

15     decision once he has given that authorisation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I mean the level of detail with which the

17     orders deal with the engagement or disagreement is another matter.  But

18     is it clear that that's the exclusive competence of the Minister Of

19     Justice.

20             To that extent, if Mr. Gotovina is informed about that, he just

21     has to accept that as a decision.  I mean, whether he tries behind the

22     scenes to -- whatever -- but in formal terms, that is a decision binding

23     upon him.

24             THE WITNESS:  When you mean -- yeah, the disengagement, that's

25     often, yes.

Page 12657

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I that I was the issue you wanted to --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.   Now with respect to these other tasks that are enumerated in

 6     Article 10, these are -- these are not -- and this may be an issue of

 7     language, so bear with me here.  These are not daily operational tasks.

 8     These are permanent tasks of the military police.  These are the constant

 9     duties of the military police that don't change from day to day, correct?

10        A.   Article 9, Your Honour, uses the language regular military police

11     tasks.  For me the tasks that are enumerated in Article 9 are regular

12     military police tasks.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And you mean enumerated in Article 10, I take it.

14             THE WITNESS:  I apologise, Article 10 of P880.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Now my question next question because the orders of

18     General Lausic beginning on the 3rd, including his summary of -- in

19     September of 1995 and his year 1995 assessment from January of 1996, use

20     the phrase "daily operational command."  And what I'd like first to

21     establish with you is these tasks are what we would call the constant

22     duties of the military police, correct?  They don't change from day to

23     day?

24        A.   These tasks can change because there may not everyday, for

25     example, a requirement to protect a feature.

Page 12658

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let try to get the question clear.

 2             The tasks in the abstract will be the same everyday, but require

 3     concrete decisions as to what features, persons, and areas would be in

 4     need of security, what crimes are there to be uncovered, et cetera.

 5             Is that --

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Exactly, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Now, will you agree with me that, for example, in paragraph 2,

12     the crime police of the military police administration at the level of

13     the 72nd MP Battalion, they had a vertical line that went and reported,

14     for example, on the progress of any criminal investigation in the

15     military police, the daily reporting on the progress of the investigation

16     went to the military police administration, correct?

17        A.   Yes.  But I'm thinking now of the document we discussed in

18     relation to the illegal occupation of apartments in Split where also the

19     operational commander was kept informed of the progress of an

20     investigation.

21        Q.   Mr. Theunens, once again you're giving what you know to be the --

22     the exception to the rule.  What I'm asking you is give me the general

23     practice.  General practice is the crime investigation section of the

24     72nd MP Battalion on a daily basis reports to the MP administration,

25     right?

Page 12659

 1        A.   Yes, according to the professional line.  Now, whether the

 2     example I gave is an exception or not, I -- I don't share that conclusion

 3     with you.

 4        Q.   Okay, how many other such situations did you find, 10, 20, 50?

 5        A.   Your Honours, I would need time to review my report.  I cannot

 6     say that here immediately.  But I don't see anything irregular in the

 7     document we discussed, I mean the document about the illegal --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's another matter.  Whether it's routinely done

 9     or whether it is irregular, of course, is not the same question.

10             MR. MISETIC:

11        Q.   But I --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And you said whether the example you gave is an

13     exception or not, you don't share that conclusion.  At this moment, if

14     there's any reason for you that -- to tell us that it was not an

15     exception which was more or less suggested by Mr. Misetic, please, on the

16     basis of perhaps a further analysis, inform us about that.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Now, while we have this document on the screen, Mr.  Registrar,

20     if we could turn to Article 15 to address a matter that Mr. Theunens

21     raised this morning, which is page 7, I believe.

22        Q.   Now you said that it wasn't part of the regular duties of the

23     military police on monitoring discipline.

24        A.   Your Honours, that is not what I said.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Mr. Theunens is right.  It's not what you

Page 12660

 1     said.  Could you please literally quote.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I will quote him then.  Let's just take them

 3     through Article 15, Article 15, subparts 2, 3, and 4.

 4        Q.   It says:

 5             "While performing their tasks, the members of the military police

 6     apply the following powers," number 2 is identification.

 7             And it says:

 8             "It is applied for the purpose of verifying the identity of

 9     persons in all cases when identity information can be used for uncovering

10     crimes and identifying the perpetrators uncovering perpetrators of

11     military discipline and misdemeanours."

12             And if we go to subpart 3, please.  It talks about the reporting

13     by the military police and it says:

14             "Members of the military police submit a disciplinary report

15     against military personnel who violate military discipline and a criminal

16     report against persons who commit a crime that falls within the

17     jurisdiction of a military court."

18             Subpart 4 says:

19             "Bringing in ..."  talks about ability to bring perpetrators in.

20     "Individuals -- sorry members it says:

21             Members of the military police bring in military personnel

22     when ..."

23             And then amongst other things "...military personnel and

24     civilians in the service of the RH armed forces because of violations of

25     military discipline.  Individuals are brought in."

Page 12661

 1             And then part 3 is:

 2             "If the person was caught in an act of serious violation of

 3     military discipline and the circumstances indicate that the violation of

 4     military discipline would continue."

 5             So it's clear that the duties of the military police include

 6     identifying a violator of military discipline, filing a report against a

 7     violator of military discipline.  And in situations where it is a serious

 8     violation concerning ongoing violations of military discipline, they

 9     bring that person in, correct?

10        A.   Yes, these are duties of the military police.

11        Q.   And one of the things that a commander is entitled to reply on,

12     wouldn't you agree, is that the military police, in addition to

13     uncovering crime, is also filing those reports with the appropriate

14     commanders of the units of the violator of military discipline so that

15     commander with then act and issue military discipline against that

16     violator, correct?  It is one of the tools of a commander.

17        A.   Indeed, and we remember that we discussed the report on a traffic

18     violation by a member of the 7th Guards Brigade at a time when the

19     7th Guards Brigade was subordinated to the Split Military District,

20     whereby General Gotovina forwarded the report on the traffic violation

21     that had been compiled by the 72nd Military Police Battalion to the

22     commander of the 7th Guards Brigade and invited him to take disciplinary

23     measures in order to act against the perpetrators.

24        Q.   Okay.  If you -- you want to raise that issue as well, so while

25     I'm here and while we're in this context, let's talk about that specific

Page 12662

 1     incident.

 2             You claimed in direct examination that that was an exercise of

 3     powers under Article 26.  My question to you is:  If the 7th Guards

 4     Brigade is subordinated to the Split Military District when this traffic

 5     violation occurred, why didn't the military police just directly send the

 6     report to General Korade of the 7th Guards Brigade to take discipline?

 7             Why does it have to go from the military police up to the

 8     commander of the Split Military District then down to the 7th Guards

 9     Brigade commander if they're all in the same Military District?

10        A.   No.  Well, because Article -- I mean, it's an application of

11     Article 26.  The violation has been observed in the zone of

12     responsibility of the Split Military District.  The 72nd Military Police

13     Battalion is the military police battalion of the Split Military

14     District.  If we -- in accordance with Article 26, the 72nd Military

15     Police Battalion, when they report the violation to General Gotovina, do

16     not what measures General Gotovina will take.

17        Q.   Well --

18        A.   Based on Article 26 General Gotovina can take measures himself,

19     if he considers that it is it a serious violation.  If General Gotovina

20     considers that it is it not a serious matter, in accordance with Article

21     26 he then refers the matter to the commander of the 7th Guards Brigade.

22     So I don't see anything irregular in -- in the fact that the 72nd

23     Military Police Battalion reported the violation to General Gotovina.

24        Q.   Again if I could get you focus back in on my question, okay.

25             The 72nd MP Battalion knows that there's a traffic violation

Page 12663

 1     committed by the 7th Guards Brigade.  Why didn't they just go straight to

 2     General Korade and ask him to take measures?  Article 26 does not say

 3     only the Military District Commander has powers under Article 26, does

 4     it?  It goes all the way down to at least the brigade level, in terms of

 5     the power of a commander to act.  General Korade is a brigade commander.

 6     Why didn't the 72nd MP just go to General Korade who, in your theory,

 7     also has powers under Article 26 and just ask him to take measures

 8     against his own unit?

 9        A.   I have given an answer to the question, Your Honour.

10        Q.   You'll help me along.  I'm not sure what your answer is.  Why

11     didn't they go straight to General Korade?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think your answer was there was nothing irregular.

13     The question put to you by Mr. Misetic, however, is why not, to say so

14     the easy way, was followed and why go up that high if the matter could

15     have been dealt with at a lower level?  If you know tell us if not, tell

16     us as well.

17             THE WITNESS:  For me it an implementation of command and control

18     at the most basic level.

19             The forces or the members of the 7th Guards Brigade who commit

20     the violation, commit the violation while they are subordinated to

21     General Gotovina, and they commit the violation in Split.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The issue, I think, is whether every violation

23     against discipline would have to be reported that high up.  That, I

24     think, is the question Mr. Misetic tries to seek an answer to.

25             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, it is not a question of that high up.

Page 12664

 1     And we can discuss that -- that aspect also.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that is the aspect Mr. Misetic is asking you

 3     about.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Well, General Gotovina takes several -- I mean,

 5     prior to Operation Storm, confirms or takes disciplinary measures on

 6     several issues or several violations and minor -- including also minor

 7     breaches of military discipline.  That is how the procedure is applied.

 8             But the issue with the 7th and General Gotovina is actually that

 9     Split is not located in the zone of responsibility of the 7th Guards

10     Brigade.  So you have a -- an (alien) unit or members of an alien unit

11     who commit a violation in Split at the time when this unit is

12     subordinated to the Split Military District.  The information I had did

13     not allow me to conclude whether there is a command level between these

14     members of the 7 Guards Brigade and the command of the Split Military

15     District while these members of the 7 Guards Brigade are subordinated to

16     General Gotovina.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So your explanation is that it is due to the

18     specific circumstances where the 7th Guards Brigade is subordinated but

19     not usually within the --

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And also because the violation takes place in

21     the zone of responsibility of the Split Military District.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that causes this rather high-up procedure.

23     There is not much higher up, is there?

24             THE WITNESS:  I don't think it is a question of just higher up.

25     It's a question of following the structure and command and control as it

Page 12665

 1     is organised.  That is, that the 72nd Military Police Battalion is a

 2     battalion of the Split Military District subordinated to

 3     General Gotovina, for the regular military police tasks.  As we saw in

 4     Article 10 traffic control is a regular police task.  So it wouldn't make

 5     sense at least from the military point of view to have the 72nd contact

 6     Colonel Korade directly in Varazdin for a matter that happened while the

 7     violators were actually subordinated to General Gotovina in a totally

 8     different area.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Your answer is --

10             MR. MISETIC:  I have to follow up this, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. MISETIC:

13        Q.   Mr. Theunens let's forget it's the 7th Guard's Brigade.  It's the

14     4th Guards Brigade.  It's the 113th Home Guards.  Are you saying that

15     every soldier got into a traffic accident had his matter reported to

16     General Gotovina for disciplinary measures to be taken?  If we go through

17     the statistics, do you expect that we're going to find General Gotovina

18     issues disciplinary measures for traffic violations?

19        A.   I would like to draw your attention to the analysis of

20     disciplinary violations we discussed during my examination and the

21     document is P1121 where among the 15 measures that are ordered by

22     General4k Gotovina in order to increase discipline, approximately ten

23     directly deal with traffic violations and traffic accidents.

24        Q.   Now -- Mr. Theunens let me stop you, okay.  Because I need to you

25     focus on the question.  That is not an example of General Gotovina

Page 12666

 1     issuing discipline directly, is it?  He is not issuing discipline against

 2     specific soldiers in that analysis, is he?

 3        A.   Well, Your Honour, that was the first part of my answer, but it

 4     shows that General Gotovina considers traffic security and the behaviour

 5     of his subordinates in traffic as a -- a key matter.  Because otherwise

 6     he himself would not issue these instructions.  Coming back now to the

 7     traffic accidents well, or to whether Gotovina, yes or no, directly

 8     intervenes, well, it will depend on the nature of the accident.  If it is

 9     just an accident as an accident, I don't expect him to intervene, but if

10     there are serious disciplinary implications, i.e., drunk driving, several

11     victims, and so on, and so on, whereby the person who investigates the

12     matter decides that this is actually a serious violation of discipline --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, I think we are losing ourselves at

14     this moment in details.

15             Your answer is clear.  You say seriousness may play a role in

16     whether it will be reported.  That's --

17             MR. MISETIC:  Let me explore it again, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm not saying that you shouldn't explore it.

19             Let me also try to understand what we're dealing with at this

20     moment.  This was all triggered apparently by where you said would

21     further explore the matter and not quote Mr. Theunens.  I think

22     Mr. Theunens testified that, although the military police has a specific

23     task in disciplinary matters, that I think what he tried to explain to

24     us, that this was not an exclusive task for the military police but that

25     a commander had a -- had his own responsibility, and that's apparently

Page 12667

 1     what we are talking about.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not disputed.

 4             It's good to establish that, that -- then --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Next yes.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  As I said earlier this morning, I'm not averse if

 8     Mr. Theunens wants to go off on a tangent.  At certain points I will

 9     follow him, but let's get to the issue of the 7th Guards Brigade because

10     this is an issue highlighted in the direct examination, which is why I

11     wanted to follow up with it anyway, but I'm prepared to follow this up.

12        Q.   Mr. Theunens, here is what I want to know based often your last

13     answer now.

14             Show me in the code of military discipline the principle that the

15     military police, for example, can say well, this is one looks like it's a

16     serious violation.  More serious than other serious violations.  I think

17     this one should go up to General Gotovina, forget the intermediate

18     commanders all up the chain, and this one should just straight to

19     General Gotovina, because this one is a traffic violation that is it not

20     blowing through a red light, this is drunk driving, and so this one needs

21     to go all the way to the top.  Where does it say that?

22        A.   Is the question now whether the matter should go straight to

23     General Gotovina or whether the chain of command should be followed?

24        Q.   Straight to General Gotovina.  Because that's your supposition

25     that depending upon the seriousness of the disciplinary violation, it

Page 12668

 1     would go straight to General Gotovina.

 2        A.   I don't think so, Your Honours.  My answer in relation to the 7th

 3     Guards was --

 4        Q.   I asked you about the 4th Guards and the natural units of the

 5     Split Military District.  Let's establish this first.

 6             A member of a squad goes through a red light.  The military

 7     police happens to get the report.  They file a disciplinary report with

 8     whom in the Croatian disciplinary system?

 9        A.   With the commander of -- of 4th Guards Brigade.  But it's logical

10     because the 4th Guards Brigade or the battalion commander of this squad

11     leader.  Why?  Because the 4th Guards Brigade is a unit of the Split

12     Military District.

13        Q.   Now let take it to the next step.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   A member of a squad of the 7th Guard's Brigade blows through a

16     red light, and the military police is advised and files a disciplinary

17     report with whom, and we're talking about 72nd military police?

18        A.   It all depends on the position of that squad.  If that squad that

19     is the only component of the 7th Guards Brigade subordinated to the Split

20     Military District at a time it commits this traffic violation, then the

21     report will go to the commander of the Split Military District.

22        Q.   No.  Let take to what really happened, which is the entire 7th

23     Guards Brigade with General Korade also is subordinated to the Split

24     Military District.  In that circumstance a member of a squad of the 7th

25     Guards Brigade goes through a red light.  Who does the 72nd MP Battalion

Page 12669

 1     file a disciplinary report with?

 2        A.   Well, in the example we discussed, it is brought to the attention

 3     of General Gotovina, and it is General Gotovina who sends it is to the

 4     commander of the 7 Guards Brigade.

 5        Q.   Now you're talking the specific instances.  I'm saying your

 6     understanding of the Code of Military Discipline is that it should have

 7     been sent to whom?

 8        A.   Well, I have no reason to change my -- my view in relation to --

 9     to the fact that what happened to the traffic violators of the 7th Guards

10     Brigade is in line with the Code of Discipline.

11        Q.   Let me consult to the ultimate point and see if you agree or

12     disagree and we'll move on.

13             The reason that it was sent to General Gotovina by the 72nd MP is

14     that, as you said, normally if it were the 4th Guards Brigade, they would

15     send it to General Krsticevic of the th Guards Brigade.

16             Because the 7th Guards Brigade is not a situated in the Split

17     Military District, it was sent to the Split MD command to be delivered to

18     General Korade to take appropriate measures.  It has nothing to do with

19     the Article 26.  It is the Split Military District basically acting as a

20     postal service to deliver the measure to be department with by the

21     appropriate commander.  Isn't that all that happened there?

22        A.   I gave my answer.  I mean, I would wonder if it is so crystal

23     clear as you put it, then I really wonder where the person who received

24     the mail at the Split Military District Command had to bother

25     General Gotovina with the matter.  If it is like you explained.

Page 12670

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let's -- let's try to keep matters

 2     relatively simple.

 3             Mr. Misetic puts to you that sending the report to

 4     General Gotovina was not done because he was supposed to exercise any

 5     disciplinary power, but it was a matter of routing that this is the

 6     appropriate way of finally sending this report to the authority that was

 7     supposed to consider any disciplinary measures.  That's what Mr. Misetic

 8     meant by a post office, apparently for formal reasons, to be there, not

 9     to -- not with an expectation that General Gotovina under those

10     circumstances would do anything else than to send it to the command of

11     the 7th Guards Brigade and not in an expectation to exercise disciplinary

12     powers.

13             That's what is put to you, and you're invited to tell us whether

14     you agree with that or for what reasons you would disagree.

15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I do not agree with that theory.

16     Why?  Because it is also -- it is General Gotovina who signs the document

17     that is sent or at least whose name is on the document that is sent to

18     the commander of the 7 Guards Brigade.

19             If indeed the 72nd didn't know very well where to send it to and

20     then just sent it to the Split Military District Command, and this was

21     not in accordance with the procedures, then the appropriate person at the

22     Split Military District Command would have sent the report back to the

23     72nd Military Police Battalion, and instructed them to send the document

24     directly to General Korade.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's why you say that this is not just a

Page 12671

 1     post office function.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. MISETIC:

 4        Q.   Yes.  And can you give me the basis for that interpretation?

 5        A.   Well, in my view it was an example of the implementation of

 6     Article 26 of the 1992 Code of Discipline.

 7        Q.   Yes.  But do you have any other examples such as this of

 8     General Gotovina taking disciplinary measures against a member of the 7th

 9     Guards Brigade, for example?

10        A.   No.  But we have documents we discussed dealing with one or two

11     members of the 2nd Battalion of the 9 Guards Brigade who entered into the

12     zone of separation and where again, in my view, in application of Article

13     26, it is General Gotovina who takes the disciplinary measure or who

14     orders the disciplinary measure against these two members, even though

15     the 9 Guards Brigade is not an organic unit of the Split Military

16     District.

17        Q.   Okay.  So why doesn't General Gotovina issue a disciplinary

18     measure in this instance of a traffic violation?

19        A.   Because Article 26 leaves the commander the freedom to decide

20     whether he considers it a serious incident or not.  If he considers it a

21     serious incident, and, again, we have discussed the aims or the

22     objectives of military discipline, a serious incident could also affect

23     the behaviour of other soldiers, so in that case the commander has an

24     interest in acting himself.  If he doesn't consider this a serious

25     incident, he can defer the matter to the establishment or the organic

Page 12672

 1     commander of the violator.

 2        Q.   Mr. Theunens, let's turn to D844, please.

 3             This is a document from the 4th of August.  We can tell not by

 4     the top but at the stamp lines of when it was transmitted and received on

 5     the back of this page.  It's, again, an order by General Lausic.  You

 6     will note that he issues this order, skipping various persons in the

 7     chain of command and sends it directly to the 3rd Company of the 72nd

 8     MPs; the 4th Company, Sibenik, and the 6th Company, Dubrovnik telling

 9     them how they are to report matters, and if you look at the introduction

10     he says:

11             "With a view of the uniform contents of reports on tasks

12     performance in the areas of responsibility, it says the report is to be

13     submitted directly to the MP administration by using code system."

14             If we turn the page please.

15             Point 2:  "Amongst the things they are to report, the status of

16     public law and order in a zone of combat operations and in newly

17     liberated areas, stating events when the MP had to act and results of

18     intervention."

19             Number 4:  "The status of crime in liberated areas and in zones

20     of combat operations.  Number of crimes, crime reports filed, and escort

21     of HV members who committed a crime."

22             Number 6 is:  "Search results of territory and facilities."


24             What is significant about the fact that General Lausic issues

25     orders directly to the companies of the 72nd MP Battalion on the 4th of

Page 12673

 1     August?

 2        A.   Could we maybe see the first page again.

 3             This document is discussed on English page 215, part 2, of the

 4     report.  I noticed -- I mean, the same issue as Mr. Misetic highlights, I

 5     found it unusual that the chief of the military police administration

 6     would issue an order directly to military police companies, because the

 7     normal command and control along professional and operational chain,

 8     would imply or would mean that he, that Lausic would send the order to

 9     the commander of the 72nd Military Police Battalion, and I have not been

10     able to find a plausible explanation for what appears to be a

11     non-application of the procedure.

12        Q.   Well, I'm looking at your report right now at page 215,

13     subparagraph F.  You just referenced that a report -- sorry.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I think it is under 7, because it is

15     475 and not 474, last three digits, yes.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

17        Q.   You didn't note, though, that you found something unusual about

18     this order.

19        A.   No, I did not put that in writing in my report.  That's correct.

20        Q.   Is there a reason you didn't put in writing that you found this

21     order to be unusual?

22        A.   No.  Because the only think I would be able to say is well, look

23     this is unusual in my view, but I haven't been able to -- as I said to --

24     haven't been able to determine what the reason was for this, and I don't

25     -- I didn't that the reader would have much benefit from me saying, Well,

Page 12674

 1     this is unusual.

 2        Q.   Well, does it, now as we're looking at the overall context of

 3     documents, do you think this is a factor to consider in evaluating your

 4     overall opinion about who had operational control over certain matters in

 5     the zone of the 72nd Military Police Battalion?  Is this an important

 6     document in that regard?

 7        A.   It is -- it is important in light of the aspect to whom are the

 8     military police units, and more specifically, the military police units

 9     of the Split Military District reporting.  And whether they keep the

10     commander of the Split Military District, or when we are talking about

11     the military police units operating in the OGs, whether they keep the OGs

12     informed of their activities and their observations.

13             Now, it is correct that this document only refers to reporting to

14     the military police administration.  However, I would also like to draw

15     your attention to the minutes or reporting that is included in P71, the

16     operational diary, where we do notice that the commander or his

17     representative of the military police in the Split Military District

18     informs the operational commanders of their observations and the problems

19     and their activities during the working meeting.

20        Q.   Mr. Theunens, again, let's try to focus again.  Okay?  The issue

21     here is the reporting on issues such as status of crime, number of

22     crimes, crime reports filed, and escort of HV members who committed a

23     crime, that information, according to this order, is supposed to go to

24     the MP administration, right?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 12675

 1        Q.   You did not find -- or did you find any written reports being

 2     submitted by the 72nd MP Battalion or Major Juric to General Gotovina on

 3     these topics?

 4        A.   I have not seen such documents being submitted during Operation

 5     Storm, but there are statistical reports included -- included in my

 6     report which were compiled by the military police on -- on these issues

 7     but they date from much later.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So in terms of when we're looking at the period of 4

 9     August to, let's say, 30 August, these reports are being sent to the MP

10     administration.  Correct?

11        A.   I wouldn't be sure about the end date, but indeed such reports --

12     I mean, reports on the activities of the military police units including

13     information that is pointed out in -- in this document are indeed sent by

14     the military police units of the Split Military District to the military

15     police administration.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have D732 on the screen.

17        Q.   This is a report for the 9th of August by Major Juric.  It goes

18     to General Lausic.  It does not go to the Split Military District even

19     for information.  This is his daily report for the 9th.  He talks about

20     the execution of MP tasks in OG North; appliances being seized; case of

21     seizing items, seized at check-points anyway.  Next page talks about

22     someone having a tractor seized from them.

23             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to, Mr. Registrar, Exhibit D733,

24     please.

25        Q.   This is Mr. Juric's report for the 10th of August.  Again, it

Page 12676

 1     goes to Mr. Lausic directly.  It's not copied to the Split Military

 2     District.  He is again reporting on military police tasks carried out in

 3     OG North.  "No violations of public law and order were registered in the

 4     observed period."

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could go to Exhibit D734,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   He is reporting on -- for example, 4th Company what check-points

 8     its holding.  "We expect that members of the MUP will take over security

 9     in Kistanje.  Check-points and security in Drnis remained unchanged."

10     The 5th Company in Sinj, talks about their check-points, regular police

11     duties.  The 3rd Company in Benkovac talks about being engaged at nine

12     check-points and control duty in beat duty sectors.  Coordination meeting

13     on 11th of August with the Obrovac police station.

14             MR. MISETIC:  If we turn to the next page.

15        Q.   He states that the Benkovac VP platoon can no longer secure the

16     Krka monastery, and that police were informed of that.  Securing the

17     Glinica factory.  If you go through this, number 4 says:  "In the VP

18     military police section perpetrators of crimes, misappropriation of

19     property from liberated areas are being processed daily."

20             Mr. Theunens, Mr. Juric is providing pretty specific details

21     about what features are being secured how many check-points are in a

22     particular location, what the status of crime processing is, et cetera,

23     and he is only reporting it to Mr. Lausic.  Do you agree?

24        A.   Your Honours, this document does not allow -- or these type of

25     documents only allow to conclude that indeed Juric sends the information

Page 12677

 1     to Lausic but does not allow to conclude as to whether he shares

 2     information included in the report or a similar report with anybody else.

 3        Q.   That is your job, isn't it, Mr. Theunens?  Why don't you tell us

 4     if you found such documents?

 5        A.   Well, it is correct that I have not come across documents by

 6     Major Juric to General Gotovina, but, again, I emphasise the importance

 7     of the presence of the commander of the military police of the Split

 8     Military District at the working meetings.  As we can see from P71,

 9     written reporting is one way of reporting.  There can also be oral

10     reporting.  When we look at the document that is now on the monitor,

11     there is information included under number 2 provided by the -- it is

12     listed as the 142nd Brigade, but it should be the 142nd Home Guard

13     Regiment, indicating that the military police and the operational units

14     or the combat units are in contact and exchange information.  But, again,

15     this document or these type of documents only allows to conclude that

16     indeed information is being sent by Juric to -- to Lausic, and without

17     further conclusions being able to be drawn.

18        Q.   Let me ask you this, Mr. Theunens:  Speaking generally now,

19     wouldn't a neutral analyst in trying to determine who has certain

20     responsibilities in a chain of command, wouldn't a neutral analyst first

21     look at who is being -- who is issuing the orders to a specific unit, and

22     who is filing written reports, written reports, to whom is that unit

23     filing written reports?  Wouldn't a neutral analyst first fundamentally

24     start from that proposition and build his analysis from there, but isn't

25     that the first place that a neutral analyst should look?

Page 12678

 1        A.   The concept of neutral analyst is new to me, but I have explained

 2     my methodology and I have --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Neutrality, of course, might be of great importance

 4     for an expert witness.  You will understand that.

 5             Yes, please proceed.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I understand the concept of neutrality as well as

 7     the concept of objectivity.  I have explained the methodology.  I have

 8     reviewed documents and drawn conclusions on these documents.  If I were

 9     not neutral, I would certainly not have included -- I will rephrase that.

10     There are many documents included in my report which are in the meanwhile

11     Defence exhibits.  I have drawn conclusions on groups of documents, these

12     conclusions can be found in the executive summary.  I also explain why I

13     draw these conclusions.

14             Now, whether somebody else would draw other conclusions from

15     these documents is something I do not control.  The conclusions I have

16     drawn from the documents I reviewed are based on my training, my

17     education, and my understanding of the documents.

18             MR. MISETIC:

19        Q.   Okay.  I again asked you a specific question and with all due

20     respect -- and again you're someone who works in the building so I will

21     put this to you.  I posed that question to you first as a specific

22     question, but also because every answer thus far has to have a spin on it

23     because you don't want to address the fundamental matter first, which is,

24     let's deal with the issue first.  I think you know full well, as someone

25     who worked in the military, that the first step you would take to

Page 12679

 1     determine who a particular unit is subordinated to is to look to who is

 2     issuing orders to them and who is that unit reporting to.  I don't think

 3     that is a difficult concept for you to agree with.  Do you agree with me

 4     on that?

 5        A.   I agree but it's a different question from what you asked

 6     earlier.

 7             Of course, one of the things you --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You agree, and you say that question was different.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

10        Q.   Now, if we start from that fundamental concept or principle and

11     we agree on it, let's take it the next step, which is Major Juric neither

12     receives an order from General Gotovina nor sends a report to General

13     Gotovina on what he is doing.  Do we agree on that?

14        A.   Based on the documents that I have reviewed, I agree with you.

15        Q.   I would like to take you back to your direct examination and take

16     you to the transcript for the 21st of November 2008.  It is page --

17     beginning at page 12340, line 22, and it continues on to the next page.

18             You said:  "Your Honours, as explained earlier, the 73rd Military

19     Police Battalion even though it is located in Split is not an organic

20     unit of the Split Military District.  It belongings normally to the navy.

21     However, for operational reasons, the 73rd Military Police Battalion had

22     been ordered to assist the 72nd Military Police Battalion, i.e., it

23     becomes a unit of the Split Military District.  And in order to facility

24     command and control over these two units, a coordinator or -- yeah, a

25     coordinator has been appointed, namely Major Juric."

Page 12680

 1             And here is the sentence:  "This makes it easier both for the

 2     military police administration as well as for the command of the Split

 3     Military District to give instructions to the military police as they

 4     only have to speak to one person, i.e., Ivan Juric."

 5             Do you recall giving that testimony on direct?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Okay.  You say there that he is appointed in order to make it

 8     easier for, not only the military police administration, but the command

 9     of the Split Military District to give instructions to the military

10     police as they only have to speak to one person, Ivan Juric.  But you

11     acknowledge, do you not, that there are no instructions from the Split

12     Military District that ever went to Major Juric; right?  And you have

13     acknowledged this morning that Major Juric was subordinated to

14     General Lausic and not General Gotovina.  So I'm asking now to reconcile

15     what you said today with what you said on Friday.

16        A.   Well, 65 ter 419 includes a document signed by the command of the

17     3rd Company of the 72nd Military Police Battalion showing that when that

18     company is operating or participating in -- among other things, in combat

19     tasks with units of OG Zadar, that Major Juric is there to facilitate

20     relations between that company and OG Zadar.  When I say "facilitate

21     relations" I mean ensure a smooth implementation of command control,

22     coordination, and related aspects.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's put 65 ter --

24             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I may ask for your assistance, 65

25     ter 419 on the screen.

Page 12681

 1        Q.   And then if you could use this document to please tell me how

 2     this document means that the Split Military District is facilitating

 3     command and control over these units by issuing instructions to

 4     Major Juric?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, am I wrong that 65 ter 419 has been

 6     mentioned before today?

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is not in evidence, is it?

 9             MR. MISETIC:  No.  He mentioned it today, I believe.  I don't

10     recall before today.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I'm saying today.  Before, today, but it is

12     not in evidence if I'm -- my recollection is well.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, that is why I think it is a good idea to bring

14     it up and move it into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's ...

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that is already on the list provided

18     by Mr. Waespi, so no additional exercise is needed to get it.

19             Yes, we have it.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Theunens, you're using this document to explain how the

22     Split Military District gave instructions to the military police as they

23     only have to speak to one person, i.e. -- I'm sorry, the command of the

24     Split Military District gave instructions to the military police as they

25     only have to speak to one person, Ivan Juric.

Page 12682

 1             So I would like you to point out to me the instructions in this

 2     document that are being issued by the Split Military District Command to

 3     Major Juric?

 4        A.   Your Honours, when I addressed the role of Major Juric on Friday,

 5     I think that I used the term "if."  So I don't see the transcript anymore

 6     here, but what I -- my recollection is, and also what I wanted to say is

 7     that if the military police administration or the Split Military District

 8     want to give instructions to the military police, it is easier if they

 9     only have to speak to one person.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I read to you literally what you said.

11             After you had explained that it was for the purpose of

12     facilitating command and control over the two units, that Major Juric was

13     appointed, you said:  "This makes it easier both for the military police

14     administration, as well as for the command of the Split Military District

15     to give instructions to the military police as they only have to speak to

16     one person, i.e., Ivan Juric."

17             That's what you said.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             In my view, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Split Military

20     District issued instructions to Juric, yes or no.  From the written

21     documents I have reviewed and the documents I had access to, I haven't

22     seen any document showing that the Split Military District Command issues

23     instructions to Mr. Juric.

24             MR. MISETIC:

25        Q.   Well -- sorry, go ahead.  I thought you were finished.

Page 12683

 1        A.   65 ter 419, the first page, shows the role -- is a document that

 2     gives information on the role of Major Ivan Juric in relation to his

 3     position between the 72nd Military Police Battalion and, as this document

 4     shows, the commander of OG Zadar, Colonel Fuzul.

 5        Q.   Now, let's take this step by step.

 6             What you said on Friday, therefore was not based on any documents

 7     -- any analysis of documents that you had seen in this case, right?

 8        A.   It was based on -- there's one order we discussed also today by

 9     General Lausic where he clarifies the role of Major Juric, stating that

10     he is superior over the 72nd -- over the 73rd Military Police Battalion

11     for issues related to the support of the 73rd to the 72nd Military Police

12     Battalion.  And I can find the correct phrasing.

13        Q.   That's okay, because I'm more particularly interested in the

14     opinion that you gave that says:

15             "It made it easier for the command of the Split Military District

16     to give instructions to the military police as they only have to speak to

17     one person, i.e., Ivan Juric."

18             That opinion was not based on any document that you had seen.  In

19     fact, was contradicted by the documents you had seen.  Do you agree with

20     me?

21        A.   Just to clarify, I said it makes -- which is an indeed a

22     theoretical observation.  It makes it easier to implement command and

23     control.  I didn't say "it made," because "it made" would indeed imply

24     that I documents from the Split Military District Command or orders from

25     the Split Military District Command to Major Juric, and I don't -- I

Page 12684

 1     don't have these documents.

 2             So there a little nuance in it, which I consider important.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, since we go in such detail as far as

 4     the specific lines are concerned, I'd like, which I would have otherwise

 5     refrained of, put on the record that where you earlier said that this was

 6     the purpose for appointing Mr. Juric, that that's not what the text says.

 7             The first time you put this to the witness, you phrased it a

 8     little bit different from what we just read.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  I don't know how I phrased it, Your Honour, but I

10     believe I raid the entire answer that he gave in order to make it as

11     specific as possible.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you would wind up in the next two or three

13     minutes.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

15        Q.   The reason this issue is important to me is, in fact, what you

16     said on Friday and what you now concede was the reality of how it

17     actually unfolded, i.e., Mr. Juric reported -- received his orders from

18     Mr. Lausic, reported to Mr. Lausic.  You have no evidence that he

19     received orders from General Gotovina or that he reported to General

20     Gotovina.  This, in fact, now violates the principle of unit of command,

21     doesn't it, because now you have an actor in the field in Mr. Juric who

22     is receiving instructions on day to day matters from Mr. Lausic and also

23     implementing his own orders in the field on day to day matters, while at

24     the same time you say that General Gotovina also is exercising command

25     over day-to-day matters in the zone of the 72nd MP Battalion.  Does that

Page 12685

 1     note violate the principle of unity of command?

 2        A.   Not necessarily.  Because we would have to analyse the specific

 3     instructions Generals Lausic and Gotovina are giving to -- to Juric or to

 4     the military police of the Split Military District in general, and then

 5     see whether they fall under the professional line or the operational

 6     line, and then we could draw conclusions as to the principle of unity of

 7     command and control is being violated or not.

 8        Q.   We're going into a break now, so during the break, I'm going to

 9     follow up on that question.  And I would ask you during the break to then

10     breakdown further for me what tasks fall under the professional line,

11     your word, that would have been something that Major Juric was taking

12     care of and what tasks fell under the operational line, which would have

13     been tasks that General Gotovina would have been issuing orders on.  You

14     will have time on the break to consider your answer.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think it's a good time

16     for a break.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             We will have a break until ten minutes to 1.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to check, Mr. Waespi, is 65 ter 4600 on your

22     list as well, because that was another exhibit mentioned.

23             MR. WAESPI:  Not yet, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And because we have to -- specific exhibits to which

25     reference is made, we should receive them in evidence.

Page 12686

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 2             MR. MISETIC:

 3        Q.   Mr. Theunens, let me repeat --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. MISETIC:

 6        Q.   Mr. Theunens let me repeat now and follow up on your last

 7     response.  What were the quote/unquote "professional line tasks" that

 8     Mr. Juric was dealing with, and what were the quote/unquote "operational

 9     tasks" that General Gotovina was dealing with?

10        A.   The reports we have seen, I mean, the reports complied by

11     Mr. Juric and which he sent to General Lausic referred to the

12     implementation of the tasks by the military police, whereby it is not

13     always clear to determine who has imposed these tasks.  The fact that he

14     informs General Lausic about the implementation of a particular task

15     doesn't have to mean at it has been imposed by Lausic, because I recall

16     that some of these reports also address the participation in combat

17     operations by units of the Split Military District military police.

18             In general terms, the tasks along the professional line are, for

19     example, the ones included in P881, i.e., the establishment of the -- of

20     a permanent military police presence in the recently recaptured area.

21     There's also tasks in relation to actually the follow-up order from the

22     meeting between Messrs. Jarnjak and Susak involving Moric and Lausic, and

23     I believe that is D47, where specific tasks are given as to how refugees

24     or prisoners of war are to be escorted and also how check-points are to

25     be established.

Page 12687

 1             There is also -- it is not D47.  I will find the correct

 2     reference.  Because D47 is not a document.  D47 actually -- is an order

 3     by General Lausic for the reduction of combat readiness in the military

 4     police units, whereby in paragraph 14 of that order, D47, General Lausic

 5     confirms that the military police is subordinated to the most senior HV

 6     commander in the zone of responsibility and sent the daily report to him.

 7        Q.   Mr. Theunens, if I could interrupt you, because I want to get

 8     back to the question.

 9             Your answer is:

10             "We have reports about tasks that Mr. Juric was dealing with, but

11     it is not always clear to determine who imposed these tasks?"

12             Now it is clear that have you no evidence that you have seen that

13     General Gotovina was imposing those tasks upon Mr. Juric, right?

14        A.   Mr. President, I have not answered the second part of the

15     previous question.

16        Q.   Well, because we go off on D47 and what is in D47, et cetera, and

17     I'm trying to you back to concentrate on my question.

18             Let answer the first part of the question, which is:  Major Juric

19     is doing certain tasks.  What we know is that have you not seen any

20     evidence that General Gotovina was issuing orders to Mr. Juric concerning

21     what tasks he should undertake.  I think we have established that,

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, we did.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, can we also, by means of your review of the documents

25     that and the fact that you indicated that Mr. Juric was subordinated to

Page 12688

 1     General Lausic, would your logical conclusion be that the tasks he is

 2     implementing, he is implementing pursuant to orders of his superior,

 3     General Lausic?

 4        A.   It's a bit -- I mean, you mentioned the cart and the horse

 5     earlier.  We can conclude that if General Lausic issues him -- gives him

 6     a task that he implements it.  But the fact that he carries out a task

 7     does not necessarily mean that it comes from General Lausic, even though

 8     it is General Lausic who sends Juric to the zone of responsibility of the

 9     Split Military District, and even though General Lausic establishes the

10     general taskings or the role of Major Juric.

11        Q.   Completely agree, Mr. Theunens, because, as we know, every

12     commander then has to make -- or every officer in the chain then has to

13     implement his tasks by making his own decisions and issuing his own

14     orders to his subordinates.  That is understood.  But my question is,

15     Mr. Juric is acting on the basis of orders that he has received from his

16     superior, Mr. Lausic, on what his tasks are.  How he is going to

17     implement them, et cetera, that's something for Mr. Juric to determine as

18     he -- as matters transpire in the field.

19             Do you agree with me on that?

20        A.   Yes, based on the documents I was able -- I had access to and I

21     could review.

22        Q.   Okay.  That leads me now to the next question, which is:  What

23     types of tasks, according to your review of the documents, is Mr. Juric

24     dealing with?  And I will -- for example, if we can look at D732 to make

25     things a bit -- actually, hold on before we get there.  D734.

Page 12689

 1             Now, in this report by Major Juric, he is reporting back to

 2     Mr. Lausic.  For example, securing facilities -- sorry, check-points is

 3     point 1.

 4             "The 4th OVP company Sibenik is no longer holding the

 5     check-points at certain locations.  We expect that members of the MUP

 6     will take over security in Kistanje during the day.  The check-points and

 7     security in Drnis remain unchanged."

 8             Do you agree with me that one of the tasks that Major Juric was

 9     dealing was check-points in the newly liberated territories in the zone

10     of responsibility of the 72nd Military Police and the 73rd Military

11     Police?

12        A.   That is correct.  And I just want to clarify that, based on the

13     documents I reviewed, the manning or the organising of check-points was

14     ordered both -- I mean, in general terms, by the military police

15     administration through -- from General Lausic to Major Juric, as well as

16     by the operational commanders, and we have in that context, for example,

17     we discussed P1129.

18        Q.   P1129, is that the order of General Ademi?

19        A.   We can show it.  It is signed by Brigadier Ademi or

20     General Gotovina.

21        Q.   But that's to establish a check-point on the Strmica Knin, Gracac

22     cross-road.  Is that the one?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  We'll get into that a little bit later on my

25     cross-examination.

Page 12690

 1             As a general matter, Mr. Lausic [sic], would you agree with me

 2     that the command of the Split Military District is issuing orders for

 3     check-points, it is in the context of movement of troops or securing

 4     convoys, those types of matters.  Let's first speak generally.

 5        A.   I think we would be -- we would benefit from showing -- if we

 6     want to go into the P1129 or the matters addressed in P1129, it would be

 7     helpful to see it.

 8        Q.   Well, I have to show you the entire context of P1129, and we're

 9     going get into why that check-point was established, so I don't want to

10     take a half an hour to do that right now.

11             Putting that document aside and looking at the all the documents

12     as a whole which you have done, do you agree with me that when the

13     Military District establishes a check-point -- and let me stop and tell

14     what you my distinction is here.

15             Mr. Juric is establishing check-points pursuant to the agreement

16     with MUP in terms of providing general security in the area; whereas,

17     when Brigadier Ademi or General Gotovina issue an order, it is generally

18     in the context of a combat zone and securing entry and exit into a combat

19     zone or a military escort of -- of troop movements or something in that

20     context, generally speaking.  Let's put aside the exceptions to the

21     rules.  Generally speaking, that is what those orders relate to, correct?

22        A.   I wouldn't be able to make such a distinction.

23        Q.   Well --

24        A.   The particular order -- that instructs the addresses to establish

25     a check-point also determines what the role is of the check-point, and

Page 12691

 1     the -- the mean, the orders issued by General Gotovina or Brigadier

 2     Ademi, in my view, also deal with what you describe as a military police

 3     check-point or a purely military police task, even though in both cases,

 4     be it military police administration or General Gotovina or Ademi, the

 5     military police of the Split Military District is ordered to establish a

 6     check-point.

 7        Q.   First we'll go off on this digression now if you want to talk

 8     about that order, I believe it is the 18th of August.

 9             But first Major Juric is setting up check-points pursuant to the

10     agreement with MUP, wouldn't you agree, on the joint military police MUP

11     check-points?  Isn't that what is really is being talked about here?

12        A.   Initially I agree with you.  At the start of Operation Storm,

13     when the military police follows the combat units and then establishes

14     check-points to prevent, for example, civilians from entering or also to

15     -- in the framework of securing the area, that is correct.

16        Q.   Now -- and those check-points and that control is being commanded

17     by Major Juric in the field as one of his tasks.  Correct?

18        A.   I'm not able to draw that conclusion.  I mean, the military

19     police reports, i.e., the reports I have seen from -- for example

20     General Lausic, where he informs the addressees of his report about the

21     activity of the military police, it is not always clear who actually had

22     ordered what at that very moment.  He talks about the activities of

23     military police manning check-points, escorting prisoners of war,

24     receiving the prisoners of war and other military police tasks, including

25     also participating in combat tasks.  But as I mentioned, based on my

Page 12692

 1     understanding of these reports, it is not always clear who has imposed or

 2     issued that particular task to the military police unit.

 3        Q.   Let's take it to the next step.  If is not clear to you, then

 4     let's work this way.

 5             Reports about where check-points are established in towns like

 6     Sibenik, Benkovac, Kistanje, Drnis, et cetera, speaking now about the

 7     wider liberated territory, from everything you have seen, those reports

 8     about check-points go to the military police administration in Zagreb,

 9     right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you have not seen any document where a report is being sent

12     to General Gotovina that says, There are the check-points here in Drnis

13     that have been set up with MUP and Sibenik.  They have been et up at

14     these locations in Benkovac.  They have been set up in these locations,

15     correct?  There is no such report to General Gotovina about specific

16     check-points in the wider -- in the wider area.

17        A.   Applying -- I mean, following military system of command and

18     control and also the chain of command, I do not rule out that such

19     reports could have been sent to Gotovina, but I haven't seen any.  But it

20     would make more sense that there is direct cooperation and coordination

21     between the operational commander in the area, at the lowest level, that

22     would be battalion level, for example, if we talk about a --

23     check-points.  The military police, together with the civilian police is

24     to establish check-points in Benkovac.  That they notify the operational

25     commander of the existence or the intention to establish such

Page 12693

 1     check-points.  When I say "they," to the military police, i.e., Juric.  I

 2     would expect him to coordinate with the operational commander in the area

 3     to state -- to determine where the check-points should be established.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I -- I absolutely respect your assessment of what you

 5     would expect in such situations.  I'm more interested, however, in what

 6     you found.

 7        A.   Mm-hm.

 8        Q.   And correct me if I'm wrong, what you found was that reports

 9     about check-points and where they're being set up were not going to the

10     Split Military District Command, right?  That is actually what you found,

11     even if it is against what you would expect to find?

12        A.   We are talking about check-points established or manned by the

13     military and civilian police.

14        Q.   Correct.

15        A.   And their exact location.

16        Q.   And then when they are being moved, or example, Juric in this

17     report talks about the military police is no longer at certain

18     check-points but is at a different check-point now, et cetera, as things

19     transpired on a day to day basis.  This type of information about these

20     joint check-points was not being send to the Split Military District

21     Command, right, as far as you know from the documents?

22        A.   From the documents I have reviewed, I have not come across a

23     document that indicates that indeed such information was sent to the

24     Split Military District Command.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, a simple no would have been exactly

Page 12694

 1     the same answer, isn't it?  In view of the questions which already

 2     includes all the reservations, Mr. Misetic, by now, expects you to make.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Now, based -- we can only work on the evidence that's before us,

 6     whether it is us in the courtroom or you as an expert witness, correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Do you agree with me that with respect to the evidence

 9     that is before you, the conclusion that you would draw, based on the

10     evidence that is before you, is that the issue of the joint check-points

11     their implementation, locations, when they would be changed, those types

12     of questions, were under the command of Major Juric, and his line was to

13     General Lausic?

14        A.   I have answered the question already, whereby I stated that --

15     and this is also referred to on page 213 in my report, using P915 that

16     indeed initially it is the military police who decide about the

17     establishment of the check-points, when -- I mean, during the advance of

18     the HV units.

19             As to what happens later, especially after Storm, in my view, the

20     reports, both by Lausic -- by Juric as well by Lausic do not always allow

21     to conclude who ordered to establish the check-point where.  There is no

22     doubt that some check-points or that the check-points were established

23     following orders by the military police administration, but, again, as

24     the reports do not clearly indicate who ordered what, I cannot draw a --

25     an overall conclusion.

Page 12695

 1        Q.   But to follow up on that, there's also the fact that -- you said

 2     you can't conclude, but you also -- even after Operation Storm, as events

 3     transpired, you didn't find an order from General Gotovina at any time

 4     regarding joint MUP military police check-points, correct?

 5        A.   No, I have not come across such a document.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, it's on the screen now --

 8        Q.   For example, this is it dated 11 August, and it talks about the

 9     third paragraph :

10             "The Benkovac platoon of the 3rd military police Company Zadar is

11     engaged at nine check-points ... on 11 August 1995 a coordination meeting

12     was held with the members of the Obrovac police station."

13             That would be MUP police, correct?

14        A.   Yes, I agree.

15        Q.    "And we informed them about our evaluation of public law and

16     order situation in that municipality and that at 0600 hours on that day

17     the Benkovac VP platoon could no longer secure the Krka monastery."

18             Then it goes on.

19             Now my question is it is it also a fact that MUP and the military

20     police were coordinating their activities on the ground.  Correct?  We

21     agree that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Or I should say attempting as best they could to coordinate their

24     activities.

25             And the reports by joint meetings about what they were doing to

Page 12696

 1     coordinate, at least through August 11 in this report, were again being

 2     sent through major Juric to General Lausic, correct?

 3        A.   Yes, indeed.  That is that what document shows.

 4        Q.   And you did not find any reports about the results of joint

 5     coordination meetings between MUP and the military police being sent to

 6     the Split Military District Command, correct?

 7        A.   There is an document from General Lausic which he sends to the

 8     military police units all over Croatia following a meeting he has had

 9     with Mr. Moric, where the -- the difficulties in -- in coordination of

10     the tasks between civilian police and military police are addressed, and

11     to my recollection, that document is also being sent to -- sent info to

12     the Military District Commanders and this is P877, dated the 18th of

13     August.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, maybe I should have been more precise.  I'm not

15     referring to General Lausic at his level, then sending things for

16     information to the Split Military District.  I'm talking about these

17     subordinate military police personnel that in the field are having these

18     coordination meetings with the MUP.  These subordinate personnel in the

19     field are reporting the results of their coordination activities to

20     Mr. Lausic through Major Juric, correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.  We have a example on the screen here.

22        Q.   And in your review of the OTP documents, you do not find a report

23     where subordinate -- subordinate military police in the 72nd MPs were

24     sending reports of coordination meetings with the MUP to the Split

25     Military District command, correct?

Page 12697

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Number 4, status of crime, processing of crime.  In terms of the

 3     work of the crime police of the military police on a daily basis, those

 4     reports were being sent to the military police administration on a daily

 5     basis, correct?

 6        A.   There were regularly sent.  I'm not sure anymore whether these

 7     were compiled on a daily basis, but indeed there was a procedure to

 8     inform the military police administration of this aspect.

 9        Q.   And the regular reports of the crime police in the 72nd MP were

10     not sent to the Split Military District Command, correct?

11        A.   I can only answer based on the documents I have reviewed, and

12     indeed, I have not seen such a document.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, in the -- so let's stop here and go back to the

14     distinction you made before the break, which is Major Juric is dealing

15     with what you call tasks in the professional line, and General Gotovina

16     dealing with tasks in the operational line.

17             If we see that -- I'm Major Juric is dealing with the issue of

18     these joint check-points with the MUP, if we see that Major Juric is

19     dealing with the issue of crime processing in the zone of the 72nd of

20     MUP, are those, in fact, then tasks that fall within the professional

21     line of the military police?

22        A.   I think we -- when you mean "crime processing," do you also mean

23     actually to -- do note -- or to observe that a crime has happened and

24     then to start investigation afterwards, or do you only mean by that the

25     -- the investigative activities?  Once the military police has been

Page 12698

 1     notified of a crime.

 2        Q.   Once it has been notified of a crime.  So the regular -- what was

 3     in Article 10 -- part of regular duties to investigate and process crime,

 4     and if necessary, bring a criminal complaint, and all the things you

 5     would expect a military police crime unit to do.  The reports -- it is

 6     daily activities or every other day or whatever the frequency of the

 7     reports is, what I'm asking you is:  Major Juric is dealing with

 8     reporting those types of issues, meaning crime processing as I have

 9     described it, and setting up these MUP -- military police check-points.

10     Given your answer before the break, doesn't that -- are you -- I would

11     then logically follow you're saying that those tasks fall within the

12     professional line?

13        A.   I think we have -- we have to make a distinction between what he

14     is reporting on and who is ordering the issues he is reporting on.

15     There's no doubt that Juric reports to Lausic or to General Lausic about

16     the activities of the military police which cover both professional as

17     well as operational aspects.

18             However, as I mentioned earlier, on the -- these reports, in my

19     view, do not always allow to conclude who ordered to conduct these

20     activities.  The reason why I mention this is that that was a second

21     aspect of your initial question.

22             In addition to the instructions given by Lausic and/or Juric,

23     there are also instructions an orders issued by the operational

24     commanders dealing with similar matters, for example, the establishment

25     of check-points.  And that's why on the basis of a report, which does not

Page 12699

 1     indicate who issued a task, it is difficult to draw a clear conclusion on

 2     that aspect.

 3        Q.   Well, without going over the last hour that we've gone through,

 4     and I will tell what you my understanding is of your testimony thus far

 5     so we don't have to repeat it.

 6             Major Juric is under the command of General Lausic.  He is not

 7     under the command or not subordinated to General Gotovina.  He is not

 8     receiving orders from General Gotovina.  He is not issuing reports to

 9     General Gotovina.  He is issuing reports to General Lausic.  He is

10     completing tasks which he has been charged with from General Lausic.  I'm

11     trying -- we see the types of tasks that you acknowledge that he is

12     dealing with are joint check-points with the MUP, crime processing or the

13     work of the crime police of the 72nd MP Battalion.

14             Looking at it from the perspective of what Major Juric is doing

15     -- and you were the one who made this distinction before the break that

16     well, Major Juric is dealing with professional line tasks and General

17     Gotovina is dealing with operational tasks.  My question to you is:  Now

18     since we have now established that Major Juric is dealing with tasks such

19     as joint MUP check-points and crime processing, given your answer before

20     the break, is my conclusion wrong, that you mean that Major Juric, when

21     he is dealing with joint check-points with MUP and crime processing, is

22     dealing with "professional line tasks"?

23        A.   I can't see the transcript from prior to the break, but I

24     remember that you asked me whether the principle of unit of command was

25     violated because of the fact that both Juric and General Gotovina were

Page 12700

 1     issuing orders, and I replied that we would have to analyse the specific

 2     orders and then to see whether they address tasks that fall under the

 3     professional line or whether they concerned tasks that fall under the

 4     operational line.

 5             Again, Juric reports here on certain activities.  I have

 6     testified that certainly initially the plan or the instructions given by

 7     General Lausic to the military police battalions include the

 8     establishment of check-points.  Subsequently there is coordination

 9     cooperation between the civilian police and the military police in order

10     to set up joint check-points.  I have not seen documents issued or orders

11     issued by General Gotovina on the location of such joint check-points,

12     but it is very important to keep in mind that I've seen shall - and we

13     have discussed some of them - several orders by General Gotovina during

14     and after Operation Storm, indicating that he can use his military police

15     to carry out tasks he has determined.

16        Q.   Let's start from your proposition now or your answer that you

17     acknowledge that General Lausic issued orders on the establishment of

18     check-points.  Major Juric implemented those orders in the field.  The

19     issue of check-points, is that a professional line task or an operational

20     task?

21        A.   It covers both aspects.  Because there will be procedures as to

22     how a check-point has to be organised, about -- there will be procedures

23     as to what the general duties or function is of a check-point and where

24     to locate them and so on and so on, than would be -- and we were to

25     locate them in general terms.  Like, you're not going to put a

Page 12701

 1     check-point in a particular location because of the fact that it wouldn't

 2     stop anything, and so on, those aspects would be covered by the

 3     professional line.

 4             Then the exact physical location of a check-point in location X,

 5     Y, or Z, for a particular duration of time, it may be a very specific

 6     mission or not, would in my view fall under the operational line.

 7        Q.   Okay now let's talk specifics.  We're talking 4 August, 5 August,

 8     6 August.  We're talking about Major Juric's implementation of

 9     check-points in the field his reporting back to General Lausic about

10     where the check-points are, where those check-points have been

11     discontinued.  Where those check-points have been moved.  Those are

12     operational issues that are being implemented by Major Juric and reported

13     on back to General Lausic, correct?

14        A.   He reports about it to General Lausic, but I cannot conclude

15     whether -- who orders that a check-point be set up in a particular

16     location at that very moment.  I assume or my conclusion is that this

17     follows from the plan that has been agreed between Mr. Lausic --

18     General Lausic and Mr. Moric, that, okay, the military police will in the

19     framework of its duties to maintain law and order, establish

20     check-points.  But from the military practical point of view, there

21     should be and that is a theoretical answer there should be coordination

22     with the operational units or the combat units in the area as to who will

23     set up which check-point where and how they will handle cooperate and

24     coordinate the activities.  I cannot be more price because I haven't seen

25     more prices documents.

Page 12702

 1        Q.   Well, I agree with where I think you said your conclusion is that

 2     this follows from the plan that had been agreed upon between Mr. Lausic,

 3     General Lausic and Mr. Moric.  I agree with that conclusion.

 4             My -- furthermore would you agree with me that when

 5     General Lausic then sends Major Juric into the field, it is with the

 6     authority to establish the check-points that he deems necessary in

 7     cooperation with the MUP as per the agreement that had been reached on

 8     the 3rd of August?

 9             I specifically call your attention to the document we referenced

10     earlier which said that Major Juric has the authority to implement all

11     military police tasks in the zone of the 72nd Military Police Battalion.

12        A.   I cannot draw the conclusion that it the establishment of the

13     check-points, i.e., physically in the terrain at a particular location,

14     fell exclusively under the authority of Major Juric because I haven't

15     seen a document or documents indicating that.

16             And based on my military background, it would be logical - and

17     that's again theoretical - answer that such activities would be

18     coordinated with the operational commander in the area, i.e., the

19     commander of the combat unit in the area, in order to have the most

20     efficient use of all assets available because combat troops, once they

21     have captured the objective, can also be used to establish check-points.

22        Q.   Let me try it a different way.

23             Based on the fact that we have now established that the issue of

24     these joint check-points was not being reported in terms of their

25     location, their movement, their discontinuance, was not being reported as

Page 12703

 1     far as you can tell from the documents that you have reviewed to the

 2     Split Military District Command, isn't it -- isn't your conclusion based

 3     on the evidence in front you that the fact that this is getting reported

 4     up the chain to Juric and Lausic that this must be a task that's being

 5     implemented pursuant to that line?

 6        A.   If we're talking about the joint MUP military police

 7     check-points, I think there's a slight distinction with the check-points

 8     that are established initially, but, still, as I mentioned in my previous

 9     answer, there would have been coordination with the operational commander

10     in the area, in order to ensure that these check-points are located in

11     the most efficient or the most appropriate location and are organised in

12     the most efficient manner, irrespective of who had the initial proposal

13     or idea to set up the check-points.

14             The establishment of these check-points is indeed, based on

15     documents I reviewed, a consequence or a result of the initial plan that

16     is -- has been agreed by general Lausic and Mr. Moric.  Now, as to the

17     actual implementation, it would seem plausible that major Juric suggested

18     to the local police official, civilian police official, and, in my view,

19     also the local military commander, that well, we will establish or we

20     want to establish a check-point in location X, Y, or Z, and that is the

21     manner -- according to which the plan is implemented.

22             I cannot imagine that the military police and civilian police

23     would set up their check-points in isolation or disregard of military

24     realities in the area they are without any consultation or cooperation

25     coordination with the operational commander in that area.

Page 12704

 1        Q.   Once again, Mr. Theunens, you have given us an answer about what

 2     would you expect, and I keep wanting to get back to what you found.  So

 3     let me take you back to what you found.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, Mr. Theunens apparently combines his

 5     military experience and the knowledge he gains from that with what he

 6     found in documents, and he has explained to us in different wordings

 7     several times that what I see in the documents -- there must be other

 8     mechanisms as well.  That's what he explained in many different lines.

 9             Now, to say, I only want your conclusions on the basis of those

10     documents, if an expert is convinced that on the basis of his experience

11     and his knowledge, that this is most likely incomplete information, the

12     written information, compared to what must have been there to make

13     everything function, that is it not something I would expect you to

14     require from an expert witness.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Judge.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. MISETIC:  With all due respect, the witness when he is

18     pushed, uses the expression based on my military experience, which to me,

19     I mean, if I were to say to you in closing argument, based on my legal

20     experience, my client is not guilty.  You would say, It is an interesting

21     opinion.  Is there any evidence to support to you?  And I would say,

22     judge, there is all sorts of exculpatory documents based on my experience

23     that have not been shown to you.

24             I'm trying get to conclusions that we can deal with on the basis

25     of what the documents are.  And I think that is one conclusion that would

Page 12705

 1     be drawn on the basis of documents.  The fact that he thinks that it was

 2     something else based on his experience in the Belgian army is a different

 3     issue can he with address, but I'm primarily interested in, based on the

 4     evidence, that this person has been tendered as an expert witness, and I

 5     think is he basically testified to that to this point.

 6             I don't think it is that controversial to say --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The expert witness -- if the expert is

 8     hesitating to go draw conclusions because on the basis of his experience,

 9     he feels that he has not the complete information, that -- of course I

10     can imagine that that would be heavily criticised by you drawing

11     conclusions on incomplete information.  I leave that entirely open.  But

12     to say I want you to draw conclusions on the basis of documents alone, if

13     the expert feels that, based again on his experience, that he should not

14     do so, then we should respect that.

15             I do not mind at all you've done that over the past one or two

16     hours to very much push him to tell us what the documents tell us.  And

17     you have in your questioning clearly explained that if there are vague

18     notions elsewhere, that that should not take -- that he should still

19     should focus on what he investigated.  I have no problem with that.  But

20     to say, I want you to draw conclusions on the basis of what have you

21     seen, even if that is incomplete, then where the witness has explained

22     various times that he considers there must be more.  And of course he has

23     explained it to some extent.  He has not just said, there must be more.

24     He has explained that in various respects.  I leave it at this point to

25     comments on questions and answers.

Page 12706

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.  If I may just respond briefly

 3     to say that I think I speak -- I'm sure I speak on behalf of our defence,

 4     and I probably speak on behalf of the other two, that we don't accept

 5     that hesitation most often results from military experience.  I've

 6     alluded to certain issues thus far, and I can, I think, establish a

 7     pattern of when his hesitation to answer questions appears.  And for that

 8     reason, I push him because I don't want do give him the opportunity to

 9     give me the spin instead of getting to the heart of the matter, and

10     that's why I'm --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, I would not expect you just to accept

12     that the hesitation comes from what the witnesses says.  You are there to

13     challenge that.  And if you say, We want to push him, that has become

14     perfectly clear.  However, pushing to what point?  That is the issue.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Let me continue then.  Mr. Theunens, these are operational

18     matters, in terms of establishment of check-points.  Now, you cannot be

19     sure is the conclusion that you've left at that in terms of who was

20     telling Juric and the members of the military police to establish

21     specific check-points where, although you acknowledge that there is no --

22     no evidence that you have seen that General Gotovina or the Split

23     Military District Command was issuing orders or receiving reports on

24     where these joint check-points were to be located or were located.

25             My question now goes back to the question that I asked you before

Page 12707

 1     the break.  If in fact, if in fact, we can logically conclude that

 2     Mr. Lausic was there on the 2nd, with the two ministers.  He is there at

 3     the working meeting on the 3rd with the MUP to work out the details of

 4     this plan.  He sends out someone from Zagreb, namely, Mr. Juric, into the

 5     field with the authority and responsibility to implement all military

 6     police tasks in the zone of responsibility.  And if, in fact, Major Juric

 7     then did, pursuant to his instructions work with the MUP and establish

 8     joint check-points at specific locations in the liberated territories,

 9     those are operational matters, according to your testimony, in terms of

10     the specific locations.

11             My question to you -- do you disagree with that?

12        A.   No, no, I'm just trying to follow your question.

13        Q.   Those operational matters, and that takes me back to the question

14     before the break.

15             Based on these documents, based on what transpired on th 2nd,

16     3rd, 4th, is there not a violation of principle of unit of command, if,

17     in fact, Major Juric as someone who is not answerable to the Split

18     Military District Command, is issuing orders on things such as

19     check-points in the field while General Gotovina, in your theory, also

20     has the same ability to issue orders concerning those same check-points?

21        A.   Your Honours, in light of my previous answer to similar

22     questions, I think I can very clear now.

23             I have not seen specific orders by General Juric to establish a

24     specific check-point in a specific location.  On the other hand, I have

25     seen and we have discussed some of those orders by General Gotovina to

Page 12708

 1     establish a check-point in a very particular location, whereby a

 2     check-point -- excuse me, manned by members of the 72nd Military Police

 3     Battalion, whereby General Gotovina or his Deputy Commander, Brigadier

 4     Ademi, clearly states what the role of this check-point is.

 5             If I had seen such an order by Mr. Juric, I would obviously have

 6     drawn a conclusion from those orders.  But I haven't seen such orders.  I

 7     haven't seen any orders indicating where these joint MUP/MP check-points

 8     are to be established.  All I can say is that there has been indeed been

 9     a meeting on the 2nd or 3rd August at the highest level where this

10     procedure or method of ensuring security and safety in the recaptured

11     area is discussed at the highest level.

12        Q.   Mr. Theunens, we're coming up on the end of the day, so let me

13     ask it again.

14             I think I know what I'm saying to you is to assume that Mr. Juric

15     based on the sequence of events, in fact, was issuing orders where those

16     check-points go.  Take it for granted.  It's a hypothetical.  Take it for

17     granted.  Does that violate the principle of unit of command?

18        A.   If the operational commander -- I mean, again hypothetically, if

19     the operational commander in the area agrees that Juric decides on his

20     own or with the MUP, but without consulting the operational commander or

21     coordinating with the operational commander, to establish a check-point

22     in -- in a particular location, there is no problem because the

23     operational commander seems to accept it, even though it does not

24     correspond to with doctrine.

25        Q.   And if he doesn't accept it?

Page 12709

 1        A.   If he doesn't accept it, he will raise it with the superior and

 2     then through the chain of command --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, you're now describing how he would

 4     resolve that.  The question was now how it would be resolved, but the

 5     question was whether it would be a violation of the -- of the one command

 6     structure, the --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, unit of command.  There is only violation if

 9     somebody -- I mean the operational commander makes a problem of it.  If

10     the operational commander accepts it, in theory it is a violation but in

11     practice, it is not.  Because the operational commander, if he accepts

12     it, he agrees that he is not consulted in this area and -- so there is

13     there is, in practical terms, no violation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, it's time to adjourn for the day.

15             We'll not sit tomorrow.

16             Mr. Theunens, he'd like to see you back on Friday, at 9.00 in the

17     morning.  I give the same instructions to you as I did the other days;

18     that is, not to speak about the testimony, whether already given or still

19     to be given.

20             We adjourn until Friday, the 28th of November, 9.00 in the

21     morning, Courtroom I.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of

24                           November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.