Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12710

 1                           Friday, 28 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Before we continue, may I remind the Defence that the issue of

13     what pages of P482, which is a book, the Defence would wish to tender in

14     addition to what was tendered by the Prosecution still remains unresolved

15     and that a recent reminder has not triggered any response.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, after the reminder that was sent by

17     Mr. Nilsson, I sent an e-mail to the persons in OTP who were also copied

18     on Mr. Nilsson's e-mail with a proposal, and I have not heard yet from

19     OTP.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see whether we can resolve this matter soon.

21             Then I take it that -- yes.

22             Mr. Theunens, good morning to you as well.

23             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that the solemn

25     declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony still binds you.

Page 12711

 1             Mr. Misetic will now continue his cross-examination.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                           WITNESS:  REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Theunens.

 7        A.   Good morning, Mr. Misetic.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I may have exhibit P878 on the

 9     screen, please.

10        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I'm showing you or about to show you a document

11     authored by General Lausic on the 16th of August, and was sent to all

12     military police units and to all military police administration

13     departments and sections.

14             MR. MISETIC:  And if we scroll down to the bottom of this page,

15     please.

16        Q.   In it, Mr. Lausic notes that:  "With the change in the deployment

17     of Croatian army units in the newly liberated areas of the Republic of

18     Croatia, and the organisation of police administrations, police stations,

19     and MUP -- of the MUP of the RH, conditions have been created for a

20     change in the deployment of units of the military police of the armed

21     forces ... as well as the manner in carrying out military police tasks

22     and in keeping with that I here order ..."

23             Then he goes through and to the various military police

24     battalion, he gives assignments.

25             Point 4 says, for example, "By 1800 hours on the 18th of August,

Page 12712

 1     abolish all check-points towards free areas of the BH Federation in the

 2     zones of responsibility of the 67th, 70th, and 71st Military Police

 3     Battalions.  The check-points shall be taken over by staff of the

 4     RH MUP."

 5             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can go over to the next page, please.

 6        Q.   Point 6, and this is -- I'd ask to you keep this point in mind

 7     because it is relevant to the next document.  It says:  "In all zones of

 8     responsibility, ensure that commanders of military police units are

 9     familiar with the deployment of HV units on the line of defence and at

10     camp sites, the strength of the units, the time and direction of

11     redeployment or departure of VP units from the zone of responsibility,

12     and that they have the telephone numbers of the commander and vice versa,

13     thus ensuring knowledge of the zone of responsibility on the basis of

14     which the engagement of VP patrols shall also be planned."

15             And before I pose a question to you, let me now take you to

16     Exhibit P877.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if you could, please.

18        Q.   I'm know showing you a document from two days after this

19     document.  And if you recall the sequence, the one on the screen right

20     now was the 16th of August.  Mr. Moric sends a letter to General Lausic,

21     I believe, on the 17th of August.  Now I'm showing you the 18th of

22     August, where General Lausic issues orders where he references that

23     letter from Mr. Moric.

24             MR. MISETIC:  If we scroll to the bottom.

25        Q.   You can see this is also now sent also to -- it's an order sent

Page 12713

 1     to all -- the military police battalions there:  67, 68, 69, 71, and 72.

 2     He references in the introduction:  "The military police administration

 3     received an official document from the MUP of RH on 17 August 1995,

 4     stating that in the territory of the Republic of Croatia liberated during

 5     Operation Oluja, still there are daily recorded examples of houses being

 6     burned, of illegal taking away of the other people's movable property, as

 7     well as other -- as well as examples of other forms of illegal behaviour

 8     committed by the members of the HVO and by the civilians wearing the HV

 9     uniforms ..."

10             MR. MISETIC:  Actually, I seem to have a different translation

11     here.

12        Q.   I'll read the one on the screen then?

13        A.   The English text says "HV."

14        Q.   Yes.  I seem to have an earlier translation, so I will read the

15     one that says -- it's not relevant to the question I'm going to pose, but

16     you're right.

17             The one on the screen says:  "... other unlawful actions by HV

18     soldiers and civilians wearing HV uniforms are occurring on a daily

19     basis."

20             The communication also says that "cooperation between the

21     military and civilian police on liberated territory thus far has not

22     yielded results, pursuant to the fundamental guidelines of state policy."

23             It goes on and he issues an order to the military police

24     battalions that I referenced.  And if you look through the order, he

25     gives specific tasks including that "the commanders of the military

Page 12714

 1     platoons companies and battalions are immediately required to get in

 2     touch with commanders ever police stations."

 3             Is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.  But he also states, and I also copied that in my report in

 5     English page 230, in the second part that "commanders of platoons,

 6     companies, and battalions of the military police are to immediately get

 7     in contact with the highest ranking HV commander in their area of

 8     responsibility," and so on.

 9        Q.   I'm -- I wasn't finished with my question.  I thought you were

10     disagreeing with what I had read up to that point?

11        A.   I'm sorry.  No.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now you're right.  The next sentence says -- but you

13     didn't finish the sentence there.  It says:  "... get in contact with the

14     highest ranking HV commander in their area of responsibility, and

15     completely execute item 6 of the UVP order," which is item 6 of the order

16     I just showed you on the screen, which said:  "Get in contact with the

17     commanders so you know ..." -- essentially it says, so you know where the

18     troops will be, so you can plan your activities accordingly.  Correct?

19             It doesn't say, Go to the local area commander so can you receive

20     orders from him on what you're supposed to be doing.  And if I may

21     complete this, further to the point, if you look at 3, it says -- he

22     gives specific instructions:  "Minutes are to be composed indicating in

23     detail the conclusions of the meetings held with the chiefs of police

24     stations and heads of police administrations," according to item 1, "as

25     well as minutes of the meetings held with commanders of HV," according to

Page 12715

 1     item 2 of the order.

 2             Then it says:  "Minutes from the meetings are to be collected to

 3     the commands of the battalion, (independent companies); and once

 4     compiled, they should be submitted to the military police administration

 5     by 2000 hours on 19 August 1995."

 6             Now, isn't what this is saying that General Lausic is issuing

 7     orders to the battalions that they're to coordinate with MUP police

 8     stations and police administrations; they are to get in contact with the

 9     local HV commanders, pursuant to the 16 August, order to get information

10     as to the -- where the troops HV troops are deployed; and then they are

11     to report back not to the local commanders, they're to report back to

12     General Lausic about the implementation of this order.  Correct?

13        A.   Your Honours, I have a problem in a sense that we're taking this

14     document, but it is obvious that General Lausic cannot reiterate

15     everything that is put, for example, in the rules in the 1994 rules on

16     the use of the military police, because then he would have to issue

17     encyclopedias.

18             I think I can better answer the question by directing you to 65

19     ter 2741, which is described on page 328 in the second part of my report,

20     where the commander of the 3rd Company of the 72nd Military Police

21     Battalion reports to Major Juric about his cooperation and coordination

22     with both the operational commander, i.e., the commander of OG Zadar,

23     Major Fuzul, as well as with the chief of the civilian police.  That

24     report gives a very good picture as to how the regulations as well as the

25     following orders are being implemented already at the earlier stages of

Page 12716

 1     Operation Storm.

 2        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I have to cut you off again because you're going

 3     off on a 65 ter that has nothing do with the question I have posed to

 4     you.  That is, as you know, a report from a subordinate military police

 5     commander to Major Juric, and I was going to ask you this morning.

 6             You've already testified that Major Juric never reported to

 7     General Gotovina.  So why you keep going back to that document is beyond

 8     me.  Let's go back now.

 9             That is the 8th of August.  I'm asking about the 16th to 18th of

10     August.

11        A.   Yes.  But --

12        Q.   I --

13        A.   -- Your Honours, I'm trying to explain based on the documents I

14     reviewed, and also on my -- my professional and educational background

15     how things are being implemented.

16             If we want to be 100 percent precise, Mr. Misetic, with this

17     particular order we have on the screen, and then with P878, I would like

18     to see P878 again and see to what extent it includes instructions for the

19     72nd Military Police Battalion, and whether it is, indeed, sent to the

20     72nd Military Police Battalion.  Because on the image I saw on the

21     monitor, I could only see duties and tasks for the 69th, the 70th, and

22     the 71th Military Police Battalion.

23        Q.   Well, whether you could see it or not, before I take you back to

24     that document, look at the class and order number referenced in number 2,

25     dated 16 August, and then I want you to compare it back to P878.  Then

Page 12717

 1     tell me if you deny that P877 was sent to the 72nd Military Police

 2     Battalion with the instruction to follow number 6, item 6 in the 16

 3     August, and tell me if that is the same document that he's referenced on

 4     the 18th August that I showed on the 16th?

 5        A.   That is a different question.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, if the witness is convinced that

 7     although the same numbers appear, that nevertheless there is a question

 8     to be raised as to whether the one document is addressed to a unit which

 9     apparently knows about document and refers to it, then he is entitled to

10     do so.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, absolutely, Your Honour.  That's fine.  I want

12     him, so we're not flipping back and forth in documents, to keep in mind

13     the number in number 2.

14             Now, Mr. Registrar, if we can go to P878, to the first page,

15     which I've already read to Mr. Theunens.

16        Q.   You see, in the top, it says:  "To all military police units."

17        A.   Indeed.  But the specific instructions on the first page only

18     apply to the addressees we can see or the units we can see:  The 69th,

19     the 67th, the 71st, and I can't see if there's a number 4.

20        Q.   Correct.  In those specific paragraphs, for specific tasks, to

21     those units.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Now, Mr.  Registrar, if we can go to page 3,

23     paragraph 6.

24        Q.   Now, that paragraph starts off:  "In all zone of

25     responsibilities."

Page 12718

 1        A.   Okay.

 2        Q.   And it was sent to all military police battalions; right?

 3        A.   Well, I agree with you about the title.  It says "to all military

 4     police battalion."  However, when we see the list of addressees at the

 5     end --

 6        Q.   There's no military unit in any addressee at the end, so we

 7     should say that it didn't go to any military police unit?

 8        A.   No.  There is no reference to the Split Military District.  I

 9     don't claim that that has an important impact as to whether paragraph 6

10     applied to the 72nd Military Police Battalion or not.  I don't -- in my

11     view, based on the other documents I have reviewed, paragraph 6 does not

12     change anything to the regular military police tasks the military police

13     battalion were to execute in the zones of responsible of the military

14     districts, including the Split Military District; again, these duties, as

15     they are determined in the 1994 rules on the military police.

16             And as I mentioned, 65 ter 2741 is an example showing how these

17     tasks, the tasks you mentioned on Wednesday, the establishment of

18     check-points, how that is coordinated with the operational commander and

19     with the civilian police.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's get back to the document that -- and I question that

21     I asked you.

22             In this document from the 18th of August, after Mr. Lausic

23     receives a report from Mr. Moric, it's him issuing instructions to -- I'm

24     sorry, issuing orders to the military police battalions on how they're to

25     coordinate with the MUP, how they're to report on their meetings, and

Page 12719

 1     that they are to meet with the highest ranking local commanders to gain

 2     information about where HV troops are located.

 3             Isn't that what this document says?

 4        A.   Yes.  That is what the document says and that is in line with the

 5     professional -- I mean, the professional chain.  As you mention yourself,

 6     the how, that is what is being instructed through the professional chain.

 7        Q.   Well, that's not what I mentioned, but ...

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar if we could go to Exhibit D595,

 9     please.

10        Q.   These are -- this is a report of the results of a coordination

11     meeting between the representatives of the MUP and the ministry -- sorry,

12     and the military police administration, regarding continued problems in

13     the newly liberated areas.  That meeting took place on the 15th of

14     September, 1995.  On the first page, you see who attended this meeting.

15     Mr. Moric was present; his assistant for crime police, Mr. Benko, was

16     present.  On behalf of the military administration, it was

17     General Lausic, his assistant Mr. Biskic -- sorry.

18             On behalf of the MUPs, chiefs of police administrations were

19     present in the areas --  from the newly liberated areas; their deputies

20     and assistants commanders from the military police chief of departments

21     of the MP administration; commanders of 69th, 70th, 71st, and 72nd MP

22     Battalions; and chiefs of the military police crime investigation

23     departments.

24             It records who said what at this meeting.

25             MR. MISETIC:  If we turn to page 5 of seven, I would like to show

Page 12720

 1     you what General Lausic said at the meeting.

 2        Q.   It says:  "General Lausic concluded the reports of the MP units'

 3     commanders.  Members of the MUP and the military police are the promoters

 4     of the state policy, and the only people responsible for its

 5     implementation are present at this meeting.  The objective is clear:

 6     Protection of people and property and creation of positive security

 7     situation in the entire area of the Republic of Croatia."

 8             What do you think General Lausic means when he says that the only

 9     people responsible for the implementation of that state policy are

10     present at this meeting?

11        A.   Well, I have referred to this document in my report on page 238

12     of the second part, English page.  It is what Mr. Lausic states.  When I

13     compare his statement with the regulations and all the other documents

14     have I seen, and in particular orders by the chief of the Main Staff and

15     the commander of the Split Military District, as well as subordinate

16     commanders in relation to the enforcement of discipline, I cannot draw

17     any particular conclusions from it, except that, in his view, he is -- he

18     and the civilian police are, as he puts it, the promotors of the state

19     policy and only people responsible.

20             However, the military documents I have seen show that also the

21     chief of the Main Staff, as well as the subordinate commanders,

22     considered themselves responsible to prevent looting, to prevent burning,

23     and to enforce all other aspects of military discipline as is stipulated

24     in the Code of Discipline and the other Croatian military regulations.

25        Q.   Mr. Theunens, what I'm interested in more is your methodology,

Page 12721

 1     how you worked, how you drew your conclusions.  I've spent the better

 2     part of a day now talking to you about military police.  We've walked

 3     through Mr. Lausic' orders before Storm; orders during Storm to see

 4     specific facilities, specific warehouses; orders after Storm to

 5     coordinate with MUP to send him reports.  We've talked about Mr. Juric's

 6     role and that he only reported to General Lausic.

 7             I'm now saying, when you reviewed those documents and came upon

 8     this passage, which I don't believe you quoted this passage in your

 9     report, did you?

10        A.   I would have to check.

11        Q.   When you saw this passage, where General Lausic says, "The only

12     people responsible for the implementation of this policy," which is to

13     protect people and property, are present at this meeting ..." --

14        A.   But -- yes, there is no doubt that he states it and that it is in

15     the document --

16        Q.   Right.  I know there is no doubt that he states it.  My question

17     to you is:  When you're trying to piece this all together to see who is

18     running the military police in -- in securing the territory during and

19     after Operation Storm, what does that piece of information tell you about

20     who's in command and control of the military police in its function to

21     provide security and restore order in the liberated territories during

22     and after Operation Storm?

23             Regardless of the fact that you may think that there is other

24     evidence that contradicts this, what did this piece of information tell

25     you?

Page 12722

 1        A.   Mr. Misetic, the methodology consists of reviewing not just one

 2     document, which may -- or which shows a particular point of view or

 3     opinion or -- but it's about reviewing several documents, putting them in

 4     context, and, as I explained, drawing conclusions from those.

 5             Lausic, on the 15th of September, makes this statement; however,

 6     I have seen many other documents, both military documents - I mean, from

 7     the Military District command and the subordinate commands - as well as

 8     from the military police, which show something else.

 9             Now, if I follow your logic, I should drop all these documents

10     and only consider this one.  Why?  Because it focuses on the role of the

11     military police.

12             I think it is very important also to understand that in military

13     environment, the military police, or SIS, or the department for political

14     affairs, they do not operate as isolated, yeah, bodies, who do not

15     communicate and who do not share information.  The documents I have

16     reviewed in the preparation of this report, as well as my background,

17     show me that all these bodies cooperate on a continuous basis exchange

18     information, and on a continuous basis interact with each other.

19             That is what I have tried to show in my report; and, therefore,

20     again, there is no doubt that General Lausic on the 15th of

21     September makes this statement.  However, based on the other material I

22     have reviewed, I did not consider that this statement had a significant

23     impact or had any impact on the conclusions I drew.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now this is where I want to get more to your methodology.

25     I want you to explain -- this isn't the only document, obviously.  I

Page 12723

 1     spent all day Wednesday, all day -- or part of the day Tuesday showing

 2     you military police documents, Mr. Juric's role, the order sent by

 3     General Lausic, et cetera.  So this is actually a document at the end in

 4     the context of the documents I showed you.

 5             But I want to get to a methodological question with you, and I

 6     want to compare two conclusions and explain to me how you arrive at those

 7     conclusions.

 8             When you see a document on direct examination that says, in the

 9     Grahovo area, guard the church, you concluded, well, that must mean they

10     don't want negative public relations, so there was a policy to burn the

11     houses, but protect the church, for PR reasons.

12             On the basis of that entry, when I show you 25 documents capped

13     by this sentence by General Lausic, you say to me, There could be other

14     documents, and I don't want to draw the conclusion you're drawing.

15             Why is 25 documents on one point and a direct quote from

16     General Lausic not enough for you, but a line about protecting churches

17     is enough to spin off a conclusion that it is a state policy to burn

18     buildings but not churches?

19        A.   Your Honours, I'm not sure whether this is an accurate reflection

20     of what I stated.  I think it was the Presiding Judge who asked me about,

21     or who challenged me at least, about the possible conclusion I drew in

22     relation to the churches.  I gave an example of one document.  I couldn't

23     identify it immediately, but any way, it is in my report.

24             It is D810, which is mentioned on English page 394 in the second

25     part the report; and D810 shows a general attitude in relation to the

Page 12724

 1     freedom of movement of the press.  So I didn't testify that it was state

 2     policy to burn houses or to burn churches.  I remember -- and these

 3     three's also quoted in my report, and, for example, in P7, in the

 4     operational diary.  General Tolj instructs that churches should not be

 5     burned, and that brought about the whole discussion.

 6             In D810, it is stated that:  In general, we have been directing

 7     reporters to places where Serbian barbarism was evident, torch Croatian

 8     villages," and so and so on.  "We have also directed them to preserve

 9     Orthodox churches, Serbian civilians being given aid and food," and so

10     on.

11             I want to emphasise that the conclusion I drew on that conclusion

12     on that entry in the diary of the Orthodox churches was a possible

13     conclusion.  The Presiding Judge challenged me, and I accepted the

14     challenge.

15             Here, we're talking about different documents.  It is true that

16     you have consistently shown me military police documents.  I have tried

17     to explain that when Juric, a military policeman, reports to

18     Major-General Lausic about the activities of the military police, that

19     these reports do not necessarily indicate who has orders -- who has

20     ordered these activities.  These reports also addressed the participation

21     of military police units in combat tasks.  I have only seen orders by

22     operational commanders in relation to that aspect.

23             You asked me on Wednesday whether I could find any orders by

24     General Gotovina according to the so-called operational line.  Well, I

25     have reviewed my report.

Page 12725

 1        Q.   No --

 2        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... if you want, I can read them out and

 3     address them.

 4        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I didn't ask you that, and I anticipate and I know

 5     that you go back and then try to gather documents and interject them in

 6     to answers to questions that aren't related to the question I asked you.

 7     Okay.  So let's's put a stop to that right now.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the question was how you could reach general

 9     conclusions on the basis of one document; whereas, as Mr. Misetic put it

10     is to you, where he showed you 25 documents which, in his view,

11     apparently give a clear view on a certain matter why you would not accept

12     what he considers to be the logical conclusion from these 25 documents.

13             Mr. Misetic, the witness has been given an opportunity to answer

14     the question.  The point is clear.  Whatever.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So you have drawn our attention that, in your view,

17     25 convincing documents has not lead the witness; whereas, one document

18     which you apparently consider not a proper basis for the conclusions that

19     he has drawn, that's what you call methodology.

20             That point is clear.  I don't know how long --

21             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that's fine.  I'll move

22     on.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, this doesn't say anything about how to

24     interpret question, answer, et cetera, but have you made clear what your

25     view on the matter is.

Page 12726

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Theunens, let's change gears.

 3             Let's talk a little bit about the Code of Discipline.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr.  Registrar, if I could please have Exhibit

 5     P1007, please, and if we could turn to Article 31, please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Theunens, Article 31 is on the screen.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  I'll wait for it in Croatian as well.  Page 5 of

 8     the Croatian version, in the upper left-hand corner.

 9        Q.   Article 31 says:  "In situations where the authorised officer

10     finds that the offence against military discipline is also a criminal

11     offence, the case shall be sent via regular channels to the authorised

12     prosecutor.  If he thinks that it is in the interest of the service, he

13     shall also initiate disciplinary procedures."

14             Now what does that -- what is the relevance of that paragraph?

15        A.   Your Honours, the relevance of that paragraph is that the

16     authorised officer does not have to wait until there is a criminal

17     procedure being started by the authorised prosecutor and the authorised

18     officials; but that if he considers it necessary in order to maintain

19     order and discipline in his unit, he can also immediately take the

20     appropriate disciplinary measures.

21        Q.   That is not exactly what it says, is it, Mr. Theunens?  It kind

22     of says the opposite of what you're saying.

23             It says:  "If the disciplinary infraction is also a criminal

24     offence, it shall be referred to the prosecutor."

25             Then it says:  "If he think," right?  That's contrary to the rest

Page 12727

 1     of the disciplinary Code, would you agree with me, which imposes

 2     basically a requirement that other disciplinary infractions be

 3     sanctioned?  Correct?

 4        A.   No, Your Honours, I don't read it that way.

 5        Q.   Well, why would it have to say, "if he thinks it is in the

 6     interests of the service?"  Why wouldn't it just say, "he shall issue a

 7     disciplinary sanction and refer the matter to the prosecution"?

 8        A.   Because there are probably offences against military discipline

 9     which also represent the criminal offence or may represent a criminal

10     offence, but which do not necessarily affect the interests of the

11     service.  I'm thinking, for example, if a military person has -- I've

12     seen such a document where, I think, an officer was involved in domestic

13     violence.  Without going into details, it may well be that such an

14     incident or such, yeah, a violation of discipline may represent a

15     criminal offence, but does not affect the interests of the service.

16        Q.   So domestic violence doesn't affect the interests of the service,

17     but looting would affect the interest of the service?

18        A.   You're speaking in very general terms, but looting will certainly

19     affect the interest of the service because, as I explained in my

20     examination, looting happens during combat operations.  When we use the

21     term "looting," it means that it is a generalised activity, whereby the

22     soldiers they see what they are doing.  People see each other, and they

23     keep an eye on how the commander reacts to this.

24             Again, I'm talking from my own experience, not about looting, but

25     other aspects of military discipline.  If you, as a commander at the

Page 12728

 1     lowest possible level, do not enforce discipline, then the other soldiers

 2     who are not involved in violating discipline will see it as an

 3     encouragements to say, Well, if he can do it, I will do it, too.

 4             It is also important that, if at the lowest level, a commander

 5     tries to enforce discipline, that he is supported throughout the chain of

 6     command; otherwise, he will be lose his credibility.  And in that

 7     context, in particular to the function of military discipline, I refer

 8     you to Article 7 of the Code of Discipline, which explains why it is

 9     important to enforce military discipline, not only against the

10     perpetrators but also for the overall functioning of the armed forces.

11        Q.   Mr. Theunens, let me read to you the trial testimony of a former

12     military prosecutor in Croatia, later a civilian prosecutor in Croatia,

13     who told the Trial Chamber as follows:

14             "Q.  Can you say something about the following situation ..."

15             This is the testimony of Zeljko Zganjer, beginning at page

16     11.576, line 6:

17             "Q.  Can you say something about the following situation:  Let's

18     say, for example, that a soldier or a military serviceman who were to be

19     processed for a crime, and if a sentence was passed for that crime, would

20     disciplinary proceedings be carried out before a military disciplinary

21     court despite the fact that that person is already being tried for a

22     crime?

23             "A.  I believe that proceedings before military courts for a

24     crime, in a certain way enveloped any possible military disciplinary

25     responsibility of a serviceman.  In concrete terms, this would mean, if

Page 12729

 1     I'm not mistaken, if a person was found guilty and sentenced for a crime,

 2     then this would have enveloped that same person's responsibility for a

 3     possible disciplinary offence.  In the category of crimes, a crime is the

 4     highest form of a punishable act, and, therefore, it is higher in the

 5     hierarchy than a disciplinary offence."

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we go to page 1157, beginning at line one.

 7        Q.   "Q.  Will that person be prosecuted for a disciplinary offence

 8     and for a crime, or whether he would be only be processed for a crime?

 9             "A.  It would be only for a crime either for a murder or an

10     attempted murder, and that the decision of the military court, if we're

11     talking about that time, will envelope or consume the same person's

12     military disciplinary responsibility.  If you will allow me, I would like

13     to say something else.  If the military court were to find that person

14     guilty of a crime, of murder or attempted murder, I allow myself to

15     assume that that person would be dishonourably discharged from the armed

16     forces of the Republic of Croatia as well."

17             Then he says, at page 11688, lines 17 to 20:  "I simply cannot

18     envisage a situation where person A, an active duty serviceman, is being

19     tried before a military court for murder, and that a military

20     disciplinary proceedings are conducted before the military disciplinary

21     Tribunal for the same offence."

22             Now, I ask you, Mr. Theunens, in interpreting Article 31 of the

23     Code of Disciplinary Conduct, isn't it correct that when it comes to

24     crime, it was assumed that the offenders disciplinary responsibility

25     would be enveloped by the criminal proceedings, but that in circumstances

Page 12730

 1     where the commander felt it was necessary to initiate disciplinary

 2     proceedings as well, because there was some interest of the service

 3     implicated, he could do that at his discretion?  Isn't that the right way

 4     to interpret Article 31.

 5        A.   You have just read out Article 31, and I have given you my

 6     understanding of it; that is, that - and I start then with the second

 7     part of what you read out - Article 31 deals with the role of the

 8     authorised officer, i.e., the commander.  It doesn't address what the

 9     military courts are doing or what the military disciplinary courts are

10     doing.  It simply states that that the military commander has the right

11     to initiate disciplinary proceedings if he thinks that this is in the

12     interest of the service.

13             Obviously, then if the matter is taken over - and now we're

14     talking about time factor - the matter is taken over by the military

15     prosecutor and justice is rendered there, there is no need anymore for a

16     disciplinary procedure.  But prior to that, if the commander thinks that

17     it is important for the service, the article allows him to also initiate

18     disciplinary procedures.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.

20             Now, Mr. Theunens, let me take you to Exhibit P71.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if you would, please.

22        Q.   I'm going to show you page 69 of P71, Mr. Theunens, which is the

23     Split Military District operational diary.  This page was not included in

24     your report because for some reason it was never translated, so I don't

25     know if you have ever seen this page or not.  Have you seen the most

Page 12731

 1     revised version of P7?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  That also explains the numerous entries in

 3     the corrigendum to change references of page numbers to entries in the

 4     operational diary in my report.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we could zoom in on that a bit.

 7        Q.   This is now after Grahovo, and General Gotovina -- and, again,

 8     this was never translated when your report was done.

 9             It says, towards the middle of that first entry:  "The biggest

10     problem in OG Sjever," which is OG North, "is the lack of discipline.  So

11     we ordered to the commanders of the units to pay attention and strictly

12     forbid looting and burning."

13             That was something you had not seen when you wrote area report,

14     right?

15        A.   Probably not, but I have seen it afterwards.  But it is line in

16     what I have seen in the other parts of the diary; as well, it is coherent

17     by orders issued by General Gotovina throughout and after Operation

18     Storm.

19        Q.   And what happened to the commander of Operative Group North?

20        A.   I haven't seen any documents showing an operative role for

21     Brigadier Glasnovic during Operation Storm, but I believe that during

22     Maestral, or the operation afterwards, he again occupies a command

23     position.

24        Q.   Well, are you under the impression that General Glasnovic was the

25     commander of the OG North on the 1st of August?

Page 12732

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Who is the commander of OG North on the 1st of August?

 3        A.   Brigadier Ademi is the commander according to the order Kozjak

 4     95, dated 2nd of August.

 5        Q.   Right.  But who is the commander of OG North on the 1st of

 6     August?

 7        A.   Well, based on this entry, it's Glasnovic.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could go to Exhibit D793,

 9     please.

10        Q.   This is General Gotovina's order from the 3rd of August, and he

11     says:  "In keeping with the order for attack and with the purpose of

12     having a uniform command and control of the units, I order:  Staff

13     Brigadier Rahim Ademi is temporarily appointed commander of OG North.  He

14     shall perform the said duty along side his establishment duty."

15             Point 2:  "The outgoing commander of the OG North, Colonel Slaven

16     Zdilar, is to resume his duty of acting chief of infantry of Split

17     Military District command."

18             Now, can you tell me -- first, from a military prospective, tell

19     us, when somebody is appointed chief of the infantry in a command, that's

20     not a very high-ranking position, is it?

21        A.   It is not a command position, but the document says he is to

22     resume his duty.  So I understand from that, that he had that duty

23     before.  Operational Groups are temporary arrangements, i.e., they do not

24     exist in peacetime.  They are set up to carry out particular operations

25     during a particular time-period, which means that the command positions

Page 12733

 1     there are also an ad hoc issue.  When there is no need anymore for the

 2     OG, well, then the other commander resumes, will return to his regular

 3     duties.  We see that also with the commanders of the OGs that are

 4     established in Kozjak 95, these are all officers who, with the exception

 5     of Brigadier Ademi, hold a command position within units of the Split

 6     Military District.

 7        Q.   Yes.  But there's a little bit different issue here than the one

 8     you just answered, which is that Operative Group North was not, as you

 9     say -- you said, "when there is no need for the operative group, then the

10     commander will return to his regular duties."  Clearly, on the 3rd of

11     August, there was a need for Operative Group North; right?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I was just giving a theoretical answer to

13     explain how OGs are established or why they are established, and also to

14     point out that the command thing.  We do, indeed, see here that General

15     Gotovina replaces the commander of OG North.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we have seen and I have already taken you

17     through Mr. Lausic' notes from the meeting of the 2nd of August, so I

18     won't go through that again.

19             First, let me ask you:  When you were preparing your report or

20     preparing area addendum, were you aware that Ambassador Galbraith had a

21     meeting with President Tudjman on the 1st of August?

22        A.   I'm not aware of a specific meeting on the 1st of August.  I have

23     seen former President Tudjman, or the late-President Tudjman, on the BBC

24     series, "The Death of Yugoslavia," where he spoke about last minute

25     contacts with the US Ambassador Galbraith, and I know from my duties in

Page 12734

 1     the UNPF headquarters that, until the last moment, there were close

 2     contacts between the Croatian authorities and its main allies in the

 3     international community.

 4        Q.   Well, did you follow Ambassador Galbraith's testimony here in

 5     this case?

 6        A.   I may have seen five minutes of it, but I was working on other

 7     cases.

 8        Q.   Were you aware that Ambassador Galbraith spelled out certain

 9     conditions to President Tudjman regarding the treatment of civilians and

10     the treatment of UNCRO?

11        A.   This seems to correspond with what President Tudjman stated

12     through "The Death of Yugoslavia," but I'm not familiar of the specifics

13     of what Ambassador Galbraith said to Mr. Tudjman.

14        Q.   As I said, you have seen now the notes from the 2nd of August in

15     Mr. Lausic' diary about the meeting with Minister Susak, Chief of Staff

16     Cervenko, and all military commanders about preventing, burning, and

17     looting; treating UNPROFOR well; et cetera.

18             We've gone through the MUP and military police coordination

19     meetings, so I won't repeat those again.

20             With respect to orders passed by General Gotovina, I think --

21     first, let me call your attention to page 113 of your report, part 2,

22     paragraph small Roman numeral ii.  I just wanted to draw your attention

23     to it.  This is from what is now marked in evidence as Exhibit D201.

24        A.   Mm-hm.

25        Q.   And this accurately reflects General Gotovina's attack order to

Page 12735

 1     the political affairs branch to react vigorously and in good time, in

 2     cases of disorganisation, undermining of the command system, relations,

 3     discipline, incidents of panic, prevention of looting and burning; and,

 4     also, accurately reflects that there was an order given to pass along how

 5     to treat civilians and POWs in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

 6             That's what D201 states.  Correct?

 7        A.   Indeed, it's true.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Let me go to Exhibit P1126, please, page3,

 9     Mr. Registrar, please.

10        Q.   This is the order the attachment to the SIS which also, at

11     number 9.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Which is on page 3 of the English, please.

13        Q.   That order says:  "Prevent burning and looting of facilities in

14     the liberated territory, immediately station personnel of the MUP,

15     special MUP units, and VP in large towns to secure the town an important

16     buildings."

17             So do we agree that, prior to Operation Storm, General Gotovina

18     passed orders to both the political affairs branch and the SIS to inform

19     units about their obligations under the Geneva Conventions and to prevent

20     burning and looting?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct.

22        Q.   Okay.  If we looked at P71, you can tell me if I'm --

23             MR. MISETIC:  Just one moment, please.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have P71, please.

Page 12736

 1        Q.   Now, we have already talked about the entry on the evening of the

 2     4th of August, where the assistant commander for political affairs says,

 3     at the meeting, essentially, burning and looting must be prevented, Knin

 4     must not suffer the same fate as Grahovo.  Correct?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Now, in your report, you classify that as a warning by the

 7     political affairs officer to General Gotovina and others present.  In

 8     point of fact, isn't it really a warning to the other commanders?  He is

 9     not warning General Gotovina.

10        A.   Could you just assist me and tell me on which page I have

11     mentioned that?

12        Q.   Just a moment, please.

13        A.   I found it, I believe.  Is it English page 324?

14        Q.   That's one of them.  I believe there is -- just one second.

15        A.   Because on English page 324, I state:  "During the Split Military

16     District Command working meeting on 4th of August in the evening, the

17     assistant commander for political affairs of the Split Military District

18     informs the attendees, including Gotovina, that morale in the Split

19     Military District units is good, adding Knin must not experience the same

20     treatment as Grahovo, and that burning and destruction should be

21     prevented."

22        Q.   I call your attention to page 311, subparagraph H.  There you

23     wrote:  "The chief of the Split Military District political

24     department ..." --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak in the microphone.

Page 12737

 1     Thank you.

 2             MR. MISETIC:

 3        Q.   "The chief of the Split Military District political department

 4     warns Colonel-General Ante Gotovina and other members of the Split MD

 5     command that Knin should not experience the same treatment as Grahovo,

 6     and that burning and destruction should be prevented."

 7        A.   Indeed, that is the summary section.

 8        Q.   He is not warning General Gotovina; right?  He is acting, amongst

 9     other things, pursuant to an order that General Gotovina gave him the day

10     before or two days before.  Correct?

11        A.   You're right.  It is not a warning in military sense.  It is

12     maybe an unfortunate choice of word in the summary section, but, again,

13     the summary -- for those who want to know more about the summary, they

14     will go into the report; and then on page 3124, you have the exact

15     quotation.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Now if we could go in P71 --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, am I correct in understanding that your

19     question comprised two matters:  First of all, whether it was a warning

20     or not; and, second, whether it was as a result of what --

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I have not heard an answer to that question yet.

23             MR. MISETIC:

24        Q.   Based on the fact that General Gotovina had issued this order on

25     the 2nd to the political affairs officer, would it be your conclusion

Page 12738

 1     that is he acting at the meeting pursuant to what his duties are pursuant

 2     to the attack order?

 3        A.   He probably is, yeah.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, I'm looking for the English page

 5     that begins at 5 August, which is page 87 in the English.  And we're

 6     having a more difficult time finding the Croatian, but it could be page

 7     49 in the Croatian.

 8             Actually, if we can now go back one or two pages, I need the

 9     morning of the 5th of August.

10             It's page 84.  The entry is at 9.40 a.m.

11        Q.   And if you see on the right-hand side, this is now at 9.40 in the

12     morning on the 5th, when HV troops are in the process of entering Knin.

13     It is recorded that General Gotovina orally issued an order that said

14     that he ordered maximum fairness in treatment of civilians and behaviour

15     towards UN.  This was passed to all OG and commanders; right?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   Did you include that in your report?

18        A.   I believe I did, but I'm not sure where.  But in any event, the

19     diary, as such, is also included.  I have included-- if it is the issue

20     of the behaviour towards UN, I have included the order by General

21     Gotovina, as well as the entries in the war diary in relation to the

22     activities of the commander of the Split garrison, or the problems there

23     were between him and UNCRO, including also the order by General Gotovina

24     to have him arrested, and to instruct, again, all his subordinates to

25     apply maximum fairness towards UNCRO personnel.

Page 12739

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's talk a bit about Knin on the 5th of August.

 2     You cited the document -- you cited the document by Colonel Zelic where

 3     he reports about the "catastrophic" affairs in Knin on the 5th.  Correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  It would be helpful if I could have the page number in my

 5     report.  But if I put words between quotation marks, it means that I

 6     quoted from the document; that is, it's not my use of words, but it's the

 7     word that is used or the text that comes from the original document.

 8        Q.   Yes.  I'm not challenging that that word comes in the original

 9     document.  What I'd like to go through right now is what was really

10     taking place in Knin and what exactly did this individual find in Knin

11     that he described as catastrophic.

12             I think you will agree with me that "catastrophic" is a relative

13     term; right?  What might be catastrophic for you might not be

14     catastrophic for me, or we may use that word to mean various different

15     things?

16        A.   I would know that a senior offers with the rank of colonel who is

17     the assistant commander for political affairs in the Split Military

18     District knows why he uses the words used in his report.

19        Q.   Well, let see if we can agree on things.  Do we agree that there

20     weren't or that there is not reporting in the documents of HV troops

21     murdering civilians in Knin on the 5th or the 6th?

22        A.   Could you point me in my report where I refer to that document or

23     could we see the document?

24             MR. WAESPI:  I think it's page 325.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 12740

 1             That's not the one.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a quote on paragraph 3 on that page.

 3             MR. MISETIC:

 4        Q.   He says the treatment of property was catastrophic?

 5        A.   Indeed, I see it now.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   So, now, when we talk about the treatment of property being

 7     catastrophic --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Actually, if we could go -- I don't know if

 9     Mr. Waespi can help me with the P number on that document by Mr. Zelic.

10             P1133, Mr.  Registrar.  Thank you.

11             If we can go to the next page, please, and if we go to the middle

12     of -- I'm sorry, the middle of the page.

13        Q.   He reports:  "The entry itself of our members and the treatment

14     of civilians was proper and at the required level.  However, the

15     behaviour of our members regarding property found was catastrophic.

16     Immediately after entry, the devastation of buildings and uncontrolled

17     collection of war booty began, but military police units had already

18     entered the town and manned the main check-points, preventing further

19     destruction and devastation of property."

20             MR. MISETIC:  Now if we go to - let me see - Exhibit P1134,

21     please.

22        Q.   This is Mr. Tomasovic's report, I believe -- I am sorry.  It's

23     Zeljko Pavic, assistant commander for SIS in OG North, who provides

24     further details on what this catastrophic treatment of property was.

25             MR. MISETIC:  And if we go to page 5 in the English, please.  I

Page 12741

 1     seem to have a different page 5.  Page 3, please.

 2        Q.   Morale and discipline.  It says:  "We were not informed of any

 3     cases of disobedience or breaches of the discipline code during combat

 4     operations.  As members of the 7th and 4th Guards Brigade entered the

 5     town of Knin, commanders lost control over some individuals who were

 6     taking various ... items and technical equipment from groceries, other

 7     shops, and flats.  This was seen by foreign journalists who were

 8     authorised to say in Knin ..."

 9             So the reports that you saw, they don't reference, for example,

10     burning of buildings in Knin on the 5th and the 6th.  When they talk

11     about devastation of property, they're talking about breaking and

12     entering, breaking glass on store fronts, et cetera, and taking items

13     from shop, groceries, and flats; right?

14             Do you agree that's what you found on the reports?

15        A.   Yeah, we can compare the two reports we saw in the one by Zelic

16     and this one.  I have not seen in these two documents any specific

17     information in relation to the burning of buildings.

18        Q.   Right.  Well, that was on the 5th and the 6th, and I call your

19     attention to some documents --

20        A.   But --

21        Q.   Well, you having worked in UNCRO in Zagreb during this time, you

22     were aware that Mr. Akashi went to Knin on the 7th?

23        A.   Just a small correction.  I worked in the UNPF headquarters, and

24     UNCRO was a subordinate headquarters.

25        Q.   Sorry.

Page 12742

 1        A.   He probably did.  I don't recall exactly when Mr. Akashi went to

 2     Knin.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  If we could, Mr.  Registrar, please put on the

 5     screen Exhibit D29, please.

 6        Q.   And I'm going to show you two documents, so I'm not going to ask

 7     you a question just in interests of some time.

 8             This is a memo from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan on 7 August after his

 9     trip to Knin, where he advises Mr. Annan, as follows in paragraph 2.  He

10     says:  "My overall impression of the town of Knin is that it suffered

11     considerable damage from artillery fire which was evident in the street,

12     where I observed many shops with broken windows, cars damaged and off the

13     road, artillery shell holes in the road, et cetera.  However, the damage

14     to the town's structures, while noticeable, was less than I anticipated.

15     Large numbers of homes and buildings were left untouched by the

16     fighting."

17             So when we're talking about how Mr. Akashi found Knin on the 7th,

18     he notes the damage.  He say there is artillery damage, shells -- holes

19     in the streets, damage to shops, broken windows, cars damaged, but he

20     doesn't note any mass burnings or things of that nature that had taken

21     place in Knin.

22             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can go to Exhibit D272, please.

23        Q.   This is a memorandum from Peggy Hicks, who is a human rights

24     officer, reporting to a Mr. Harston, having interviewed displaced persons

25     at Sector South HQ on the 6th of August.  You can look through the

Page 12743

 1     report, I don't have a problem with that, but I'm more interested in just

 2     the end.

 3             She qualifies her comments first by saying:  "Given the small

 4     number of people who have been interviewed so far, and the fact that the

 5     experiences of this group of displaced people may be quite different from

 6     those encountering different Croatian forces in different areas, this

 7     information is far from sufficient to reach each preliminary conclusions

 8     as to the extent the human rights violations which may have occurred

 9     during the Croatian offensive.  These interviews do indicate, however,

10     that at least some Croatian soldiers had been given clear and effective

11     instructions to treat civilians in an appropriate manner."

12             Now, when we talk about this report about catastrophic and the

13     treatment of property, do we -- do you agree that, in your review of the

14     documents, there was no indication in the documents that you reviewed

15     that the HV improperly treated civilians upon its entry in Knin on

16     the 5th?

17        A.   It is correct that I have not seen an HV document indicating that

18     there was improper treatment of civilians in Knin on the 5th.  In my

19     report, there are documents included, for example, for Benkovac, which

20     indicate the situation there was different.

21        Q.   Now if we can move to the next point, which is the state of Knin

22     on the 7th --

23             MR. MISETIC:  And forgive me if I'm repeating myself, I'm on

24     medication so I may be a little foggy.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It hasn't struck me yet.

Page 12744

 1             MR. MISETIC:

 2        Q.   Do you agree that, given Mr. Akashi's report and your review of

 3     the documents, that the -- the damage to property that we're talking

 4     about basically is damage that had occurred as a result of breaking and

 5     entering premises and artillery damage that Mr. Akashi referenced.  That

 6     is not what Mr. Zelic is talking about, and that's why I'm specifically

 7     asking that question.

 8        A.   I mean, I have nothing to add what Colonel Zelic writes in his

 9     report that he qualified the treatment of property in a particular

10     manner; and then, okay, we have another document dealing with the visit

11     of Mr. Akashi.  But all we can conclude from these two documents is,

12     indeed, that property has not been treated properly; whereas, according

13     to these documents and also this one from front of us, that the treatment

14     of civilians at least based on the information available on the 6th of

15     August to the UN was appropriate.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, there is an video of a meeting that General Gotovina

17     held on the 6th of August in the morning, where he is reacting to some of

18     the things that we're talking about now.  I believe you've seen the

19     video; correct?

20        A.   Indeed, I'm not sure whether I saw it in its entirety, but I'm

21     familiar with the video and the setting and atmosphere.

22        Q.   That video is not referenced in your report.  Correct?

23        A.   No.  I was not aware of its existence when the report was filed.

24     I first saw it when -- yeah.  I was following the trial proceedings, and

25     then I saw the video.  I tried to find a document because I understood

Page 12745

 1     that the video was taken during an official meeting.  I would expect that

 2     there would also have been a report of the meeting and maybe particular

 3     instructions issued --  written traces of particular instructions issued

 4     during the meeting, and I have not come across such documents --

 5        Q.   Well --

 6        A.   -- which I found unusual.

 7        Q.   Let me ask you about that.  Zelic's report which uses the word

 8     "catastrophic" is written on the evening of the 6th.  General Gotovina -

 9     and I'm not going to show the whole video now because we have seen it

10     many times in this case - has the meeting with the commanders including

11     Mr. Zelic on the morning of the 6th.

12             Is it possible that Mr. Zelic's reaction, including the use of

13     the word "catastrophic," is as a direct result of General Gotovina and

14     his reaction on the morning of the 6th?  And if you note it on the video,

15     he specifically calls out "Mr. Zelic" in the video.

16             Do you think maybe Mr. Zelic used the word "catastrophic" and

17     reported on these things because General Gotovina himself had publicly in

18     front of his colleagues called him out on failures to take certain

19     measures?

20        A.   I think that only Mr. Zelic can answer that question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I even can answer that question.  It's possible.

22             MR. MISETIC:  At least in my next question, Judge.

23        Q.   Which is:  You did an addendum, as well, in your report.  I

24     believe when you met with us in January, we had raised the issue of the

25     video with you.  When you're reconstructing what happened in Sector South

Page 12746

 1     and trying to interpret documents such as the Zelic document, tell us, in

 2     terms of methodology, why videos in general weren't part of your report,

 3     and then, more specifically, why this particular video wasn't in your

 4     report?

 5             I should just limited it to videos, audio, whatever the

 6     electronic method may be?

 7        A.   I believe that one of the problems with videos is that it is not

 8     always easy to link the images one sees to particular event, and, more

 9     specifically, to establish the correct timing of these images.  For

10     example, the video of the meeting, I'm not sure whether the date is

11     mentioned during the meeting.  For me, it is not sufficient that there's

12     a subtitle like "6 August," because anyone can do that.

13             Without going into too many details, in my previous job, we

14     received videos from the various embassies in Brussels of various parties

15     involved in conflict.  Most of them dealt with destroyed houses and not

16     very pleasant pictures of war victims.  It would happen that two

17     different sides would send us the same images but with a different date

18     and, in their view, a different party who was responsible for these

19     gruesome acts.

20             So, again, to cut it short, videos are difficult because it is

21     not always easy to identify the correct context and, in particular, the

22     correct date.  That was one of my problems with the -- the video of the

23     meeting you talk about.  And as I mentioned, I looked for documents and I

24     couldn't find a document in relation to that meeting, which I found

25     unusual, because there you see that the highest operational commander in

Page 12747

 1     the area gives very clear warnings.

 2        Q.   Well, let me note a few things about the video.  If you watched

 3     it, then would you have noted them yourself.

 4             General Gotovina, as well as General Cermak, both reference that

 5     at 5.00, senior officials from the Croatian government - they mention the

 6     prime minister, et cetera - are coming at 5.00.  General Gotovina

 7     mentions turning it over to the civilian government at 5.00, and he looks

 8     at his watch at one point on the video and says:  It 11.30.  You should

 9     have been doing this since 4.00 this morning."

10             Now, you're an information officer.  I'm sure, in your job, you

11     have had to piece information like this together to reconstruct what day

12     we're talking about.  But what date do you know the senior highest level

13     officials came to Knin for the first time at 5.00?

14        A.   I have mentioned the visit by President Tudjman in my report, but

15     I'm not sure anymore whether it was on the 6th or the 7th.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, I think the issue is quite clear, that

17     you've seen a video.  You say it's difficult to see whether the date is

18     correct.  Mr. Misetic is now verifying whether it would have been

19     possible, on the basis of what you have seen, to express even if not a

20     final opinion on whether the date and the time was correct or not.

21             Did you make an effort to do that.

22             THE WITNESS:  I didn't do that, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then your answer was evasive, the last one.

24             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It was evasive to the extent that you said, "It was

Page 12748

 1     very difficult, videos, et cetera.  It is unusual."

 2             The other way of dealing with it, as an expert, is to see what

 3     clues you find in such a video, which would allow you with certainty or

 4     probability to see whether the time and the date of this video was

 5     correct.  Then to pay further attention to the fact that apparently such

 6     important matters happened without leaving any paper trace, because

 7     that's what you're telling us.

 8             Would you please refrain from evasive answers and address the

 9     matters that Mr. Misetic puts to you.

10             Mr. Misetic, I am also looking at the clock.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a break, and we resume at five minutes

13     to 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, there is an technical matter.  Did you

17     intend to play the video you had on mind right away?

18             MR. MISETIC:  That was my plan.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no problem with that, but the transcriber has

20     asked whether it would be allowed to cut and paste, because there is a

21     text put on paper already.  Of course, the transcript should reflect

22     literally what is said.  Now the technique used by our interpreters,

23     especially if speed goes up - I think that was agreed upon - is that the

24     English transcript which has been distributed among the parties is read

25     by one of the interpreters and that the other interpreter checks whether

Page 12749

 1     what is found on the transcript reflects what is said in the original.

 2             We have developed this technique because often we can't slow down

 3     speakers on video.  I wish that we could, but we can't do that.  So if we

 4     would rely on cutting and pasting, that would require from everyone to

 5     see that nothing else is interpreted, spoken, then the text, as we find

 6     it on the English transcript, which is put on paper, I would allow,

 7     therefore, cutting and pasting.

 8             At the same time, if anything happens which results in words

 9     spoken not exactly as this appear on the written transcript as it has

10     been distributed, then, of course, we would have to correct that.

11             With this proviso, you can play the video.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             Obviously, we have no objection to that; and in line with the

14     last time we played a rather lengthy, we will do the pausing every minute

15     or two minutes to allow the interpreters and the court reporter, if

16     necessary, to catch up.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It would be good to stop any how now and then,

18     because even reading the text, you may easily get behind rather soon.  So

19     there is nothing wrong in stopping now and then, but, I think, in this

20     way we make it -- we at least assist in our transcribers and interpreters

21     to do their job as reliable as they always do.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Mr. Theunens, what I'd like to show you is now -- as I indicated

24     to you before, there was a video-clip which was put into evidence earlier

25     in this case, which was Exhibit D792.  That was a clip from a meeting in

Page 12750

 1     Knin on the 6th of August.  There was a continuation of that meeting

 2     which I will call the second part of the meeting which was never shown in

 3     court.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, just so you are aware, the

 5     Prosecution had a heavily-edited video of that portion of the meeting

 6     which they wanted to bar table.  We have in the meantime acquired the

 7     unedited portion of the video, taken from a different camera.

 8             We believe, if you wish I can highlight later, but there are

 9     certain important elements that was given to OTP, which was given to them

10     in that fashion, that are deleted from the video that was produced to the

11     Office of the Prosecutor.

12             That's why we wish to play the entire clip, so the Trial Chamber

13     understanding exactly everything that is transpiring on the 6th of

14     August.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, it, of course, raises the

16     question why redacted versions are provided to the OTP.  I don't know

17     whether it --

18             MR. MISETIC:  I can address that partially, Your Honour, which is

19     that, as I said, there were at least two cameras at that meeting.  The --

20     the video that the Prosecution received was edited from that one camera.

21     I won't go into details now.  We have had problems with that provider as

22     well, providing unedited material.  We then were able to get in contact

23     with the second camera, and got the unedited portion of the video.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So we have the raw material now, so to say so.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

Page 12751

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  The only issue of ours is to have the entire video,

 3     you know, unedited as much as we can, uninterrupted, and, you know, I'm

 4     sure we can work to that effect.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  I mean, to make it perfectly clear, I think did I

 6     that, but under no circumstances was I suggesting untoward concerning the

 7     Prosecution.  I believe they were produced a video that had been heavily

 8     edited.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let look at that time.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, this video is 1D63-0055.

11                           [Videotape played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

13             "Gotovina:  Special units of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and

14     we switch there to defense.  We shall see further how the situation in

15     the field shall evolve for the other HV units which advance in the

16     direction of Western Bosnia and link up and emerge to the Croatian

17     border.  Until then, this is the goal which should be met; and, this way,

18     we put the security of the Zagreb-Knin-Split railroad under control,

19     where the Ministry of Transport as of Monday automatically shall begin

20     with cleaning the tracks from Split towards Knin and from Zagreb towards

21     Knin.  The railroad shall become operable.

22             "This task of emerging here, we cannot lose time or fatigue our

23     forces who have been in combat up to now; rather, we have to complete

24     this as soon as possible.  On Tuesday, finish this and transfer to

25     defense in this area.  The attack forces, i.e. the 81st HV Brigade, the

Page 12752

 1     Guards Zdrug, the 2nd Battalion of the 9th Guards Brigade, the 4th Guards

 2     Brigade, the 7th Guards Brigade, handover the complete area where we

 3     include all the other forces of the 2nd Echelon in defense.  The

 4     remaining forces are let go into the waiting area for rest, and we await

 5     the next order and task by the Supreme Commander.  Is this clear?

 6             "Commander of the Zadar group?

 7             "Unknown Male:  It's clear, General.

 8             "Gotovina:  Commander of the Šibenik group?

 9             "Unknown Male:  Clear.

10             "Gotovina:  Commander of the Sinj group?

11             "Unknown Male:  It's clear.  I shall withdraw the majority of

12     my ..."

13             "Gotovina:  You withdraw exactly the 3rd Battalion of the 126th

14     Regiment (the 3rd Battalion of the 126th Home Guards Regiment) for leave,

15     because it is an offensive regiment, and the remaining forces switch to

16     defense.

17             "Commander of the 4th Guards brigade, clear?

18             "DK: Clear.

19             "Gotovina:  Commander of the 7th Guards Brigade, the 81st Guards

20     Brigade, the Zdrug?

21             "Unknown Male:  Clear.

22             "Gotovina:  The 2nd Battalion of the 9th Guards Brigade, you pass

23     this on.  He is working today.

24             "Unknown Male:  Working.

25             "Gotovina:  We are following this evening.  Report on your exact

Page 12753

 1     position by 2000 hours.  This especially pertains to the Šibenik and

 2     Zadar groups; That is, the Zadar group and the Sibenik group.  The Sinj

 3     group has completed its task for the most part.  So you await only this

 4     part of the shift of the 6th Regiment towards the top and the area is

 5     closed off.

 6             "Unknown Male:  We shall complete this today.

 7             "Gotovina:  That is the operational task which we have.  Did the

 8     commander of the 7th Guards Brigade prepare a cocktail for the

 9     commanders?

10             "Unknown Male: [Indiscernible]

11             "Gotovina:  No, no.

12             "IK:  Everything is outside, coffee, juice.

13             "Unknown Male:  Mr. General.

14             "Gotovina:  Yes.

15             "Unknown Male: The 142nd Regiment had -- it completed ... linking

16     up with the HVO at [indiscernible].  There are large areas for

17     mopping-up.

18             "Gotovina:  Yes.

19             "Unknown Male:  So that we'll have to use them for at least one

20     day.

21             "Gotovina:  All the military that I mentioned that is going

22     towards Knin, they have nothing to do in Knin.  It is only to encircle

23     Knin.  Do you understand?  It comes to the peripheral entrance of the

24     town itself.

25             "IC:  All roads will be closed off.  No one will be permitted to

Page 12754

 1     enter without a permit as of tomorrow.

 2             "Gotovina:  Yes, there won't be access; Therefore, the periphery

 3     of the town in encircled by the defense forces.  Entry into the town is

 4     forbidden, And those defense forces are not all there 100 per cent.  The

 5     remaining forces are oriented towards the areas which are still -- or

 6     which we still consider to be problematic.  Mopping-up is to be carried

 7     out.  Are you clear now on what [indiscernible] this group, the Sibenik

 8     group?

 9             "Kotlar, is everything all right?

10             "DK:  Everything is all right.

11             "Gotovina:  You carry on.  I sent you Marko Rajcic there, in

12     fact, the Sibenik group, the Military District artillery chief, so that

13     the task in that area is completed as soon as possible.  You have Beneta

14     as reinforcement; meaning, you have all the necessary conditions to

15     fulfill this in any case, the equipment, the ammunition, and everything

16     necessary, to fulfill this task as soon as possible.

17             "The remainder, the second thing that needs to be solved in a

18     planned manner is the issue of all this war booty.  It must be completely

19     logged.  The logistics of the Military District must have full lists,

20     logs of all the war booty, ammunition, and everything else.

21             "Exactly, in order to be able to submit this to the Main Staff

22     and the Ministry of Defense, which will subsequently know what we have at

23     this moment at our disposal in order to be able to plan the upcoming

24     tasks, and so we can begin the reassignment of materiel for those units

25     which shall remain active in order to equip themselves well and in order

Page 12755

 1     for us to be prepared for the execution of the following tasks.

 2             "Is this understood commanders?

 3             "Therefore, the discipline of conducting this task depends on

 4     you; meaning, you are the ones who are supposed to initiate this issue

 5     with your logistics assistant and with the logistics of the military

 6     district in order to solve this problem.

 7             "Finally, yesterday, following the entrance of the units,

 8     primarily into Knin, of the 4th and 7th Guards Brigades, which have

 9     worked on this task all this time from the beginning of October by

10     breaking through the most difficult areas, an unforgiving terrain, harsh

11     climate, and all the other problems we've had, including, as you know,

12     the possibilities of our state to support us logistically.  They

13     certainly accomplished their task and, indeed, solved this problem of

14     this key political and military epicenter, which certainly caused all the

15     rest that was standing like a house of cards to come crushing down.

16             "Now, all you other commanders have also accomplished your tasks.

17     It's important that all these larger places like Benkovac, Obrovac,

18     Kistanje, Djevrske, Drnis, that's all solved.  So, we're continuing up,

19     further on.  Yesterday, at 1330 hours, the minister of defense called,

20     and after that the Supreme Commander, who congratulated all the units who

21     took part in the offensive operation and all the commanders who led these

22     units in the offensive operation.

23             "Now that we've more or less accomplished somewhere around 70 per

24     cent of our task, we still have this target, to come out to this target,

25     which is the value of the operation, the ultimate value of the operation,

Page 12756

 1     putting traffic into operation; that is to say, Zagreb-Knin-Split.  We

 2     will resolve this by Tuesday certainly.  At the moment, we're writing a

 3     report to the Supreme Command:  Task accomplished 100 per cent at the

 4     Split Military District with the forces, the Croatian forces of the

 5     Croatian Defense Council.

 6             "Where are the commanders of the 1st, 2nd , 3rd Guards Brigades?

 7             "Unknown Male:  Mr. General, they are in the field.

 8             "Gotovina:  I said they were to be at the meeting this morning,

 9     Glasnovic.  The Commanders of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd, the commander of the

10     4th command post the Group North were supposed to be here at the meeting.

11             "We are now faced with the next problem we have; that is, all

12     those structure, the others, the remaining structures, the logistics,

13     political activity, security, military police, and everybody else that

14     follows an army in an offensive, which automatically protects the army

15     during the offensive, that step ahead and step behind.  Automatically,

16     these structures assume everything that remains to be solved, in order

17     for everything to be in order, militarily in total order, completely

18     solved.  The guarantee for military culture and for the military

19     reputation of and army is its political activity, security service,

20     military police.

21             "You are the most responsible people here for all this mess that

22     we have here.  This is why we have five hours until then, five hours to

23     get the town itself in order, and that it be equipped with everything

24     necessary to await the Croatian leadership.  Do you understand?

25             "Any questions?  Perkovic.

Page 12757

 1             "Unknown Male:  General, are we still supposed to relocate the

 2     command post here, and I'm interested in the time, so that I could put up

 3     the PZO because we have to [indiscernible] well.

 4             "Gotovina:  That will be done by the commander of the military --

 5     military Command center, the logistics, and the chief operations officer.

 6     They shall decide when they are technically prepared to transfer the

 7     command and when the conditions are met to run the command from the FCP

 8     in Knin.  You will be informed when in due time.

 9             "Go ahead, Krsticevic.

10             "DK:  I would also ask, so considering I already -- you already

11     spoke of this, that urgently also I mean from here - considering my

12     command, I mean - to the 'Southern Barracks,' in order to coordinate, by

13     wire or Motorola, with a part of the Zadar Operations Group, Mr. Fuzul

14     and I, meaning with a part of those that are going from Djevrske and

15     Kistanje, so that there wouldn't be any shooting among, to avoid --

16             "Gotovina:  That's very important.  The communications chiefs of

17     all units should contact each other, elaborate maps, positions.

18             "Unknown Male:  So that we are able to reach each other, in order

19     to be able --

20             "MF:  Mr. General, already last night, I organized with the

21     Prefect, where I expect that this afternoon we shall have a connected

22     Benkovac-Zadar switchboard, and that we will be able to transfer the FCP

23     and everything to Benkovac.  I expect that this will be solved during the

24     afternoon.

25             "Gotovina:  Then Benkovac, Djevrske, Kistanje, Knin to be

Page 12758

 1     coordinated.

 2             "Unknown Male:  They shall be coordinated, the HPT, the

 3     Directorate of the Zadar Center, promised me he'd make efforts to get

 4     this functioning this afternoon.

 5             "Gotovina:  Okay.

 6             "Unknown Male:  This way we will surely [indiscernible] for Knin.

 7             "Gotovina:  But now, temporarily, until we complete the task, the

 8     units need to be in contact; meaning, their commands need to be connected

 9     and that connection must be established quickly in order to be able to

10     coordinate.  In other words, the task is complete the enclosure, the

11     pursuit of forces, taking over the line, freeing up forces for the

12     attack, and further advancement.

13             "DK:  People are ready and we have no problem fulfilling this

14     task.  It needs to be completed as soon as possible because I support

15     you, and we should seize this opportunity to finally complete this.

16     Commander, I need these forces truly not to remain behind in the rear,

17     but to have them changed so that I can go forward, because I can't hold a

18     position and go forward.

19             "Gotovina:  That's the Sinj group, in coordination with the Sinj

20     group.  It's clear to the Sinj group what its task is and how it is

21     supposed to cover the terrain.  There is no need for all these troops in

22     the rear which are getting lost, and I saw this passing through Vrlika,

23     Kijevo.  These are large groupings of our forces that don't need to be in

24     this area.  So now we must approach this in a planned manner; and every

25     commander, from group commander, must get a precise order and suggest

Page 12759

 1     which unit needs to take over the line in order to free the 4th Guards

 2     Brigade in its breach towards Ervenik.  The remaining forces of the

 3     Sibenik group will cover it in breaching to Ervenik to the point which

 4     the Sinj group covers now at this point.

 5             Is that clear to the commander of the Šibenik group?

 6             "Unknown Male:  Clear.

 7             "DK:  But it should already be determined commander, I mean, who

 8     shall replace me in the Strmica area.  I will remain this evening so that

 9     the replacement should take place tomorrow during the day.  Therefore, I

10     have left that battalion.  It is --

11             "Gotovina:  The replacement shouldn't be conducted tomorrow but

12     today, the troops of the Sinj group, and we have the Sibenik group who

13     linked up, up there.  What's wrong with you commanders?  You don't feel

14     like waging war anymore.  You were whining there three months ago, that

15     you needed to be kept on a leash, so that you wouldn't launch something

16     yourselves.  Now that you've got going, what's wrong with you now?  Are

17     you tired all of a sudden?

18             "Have a meeting between the commanders of the Sinj group and the

19     Sibenik group, assigning the troops that will replace and take over

20     everything that the 7th Guards Brigade and the 4th Guards Brigade have

21     been holding up to now.  In this way, we free the attack forces and the

22     Ervenik axis.  Tomorrow morning, immediately, forces are to be entered

23     for the breach of the Ervenik axis.  Until then, these troops will come

24     closer and be able to relieve the attack forces right away.

25             "This all has to be done dynamically, the rhythm mustn't be lost,

Page 12760

 1     and they mustn't be allowed to now somewhere to fortify somewhere ahead

 2     of us and to resist our forces so that we suffer casualties as a result.

 3             "When the enemy is in disarray, falling apart, then you mustn't

 4     give him time to get back up on his feet, but you automatically need to

 5     push him to destruction.  It's as if you had a boxer in front of you.

 6     You've dealt him a clever blow, he has fallen on his knees, and you

 7     didn't want to beat him anymore, but started jumping in the air with joy.

 8     Then he gets up and then knocks you out.

 9             "So, the commander of the Sinj group, in fact, since he's busy

10     today with me and these others, his deputy Roko Mijic will, with the

11     commander of the Sibenik group, assign troops, get in touch with the

12     chief of staff of the 7th Guards Brigade, the chief of staff of the 4th

13     Guards Brigade, elaborate a handover plan, and tomorrow morning the 4th

14     heads out towards Ervenik.  Do you understand?

15             "DK:  I'm heading out today.  People are already heading out.

16             "Gotovina:  Okay.  The Sinj group?

17             "Unknown Male:  I think I'll solve this by this evening.

18             "Gotovina:  Of course.  The Zadar group, you got the task of

19     coming out to Kastel Zegarski by tonight.

20             "MF:  That has already been accomplished.

21             "Gotovina:  The forces for -- in pursuit are to link up and

22     relieve the attack forces, so we can automatically orient them on the

23     next axis.  The 7th Guards Brigade is resting.

24             "IK:  There's just one question.  Where should I pull out my men?

25     In Zivkovic's area, for further tasks?

Page 12761

 1             “Gotovina:  Do you have a barracks --

 2             "IK:  Towards Grahovo or here in the southern barracks?  There's

 3     no space down there.  It is a small barracks with the larger part --

 4             "Gotovina:  Then towards Grahovo.

 5             "IK:  Let's have them go to Grahovo, there where they've been,

 6     there in those houses --

 7             "Gotovina:  Go ahead.

 8             "IK:  This way we set up groups and transfer --

 9             "Gotovina:  You don't need to move them because, later, that's

10     your axis, because you're coming onto the border this way.

11             "IK:  All right.  No problem.

12             "Gotovina:  Because the 4th is coming out onto the border from

13     the left side, and the Zdrug and these others will follow in the middle.

14     So, coordinate up there and hand over the line, you pull out to rest, and

15     we're waiting for the next task.  Okay, Romic?

16             "All right.  We'll come downstairs for cocktails.  You basically

17     all go except Kotromanovic, Filipovic, Krsticevic."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, just to verify, I take it that if

19     there's any discrepancy between the transcript as distributed and what

20     Madam Transcriber will cut and paste, I'd like to hear it now, but I do

21     not see there is any indication that there is a discrepancies.

22             So, therefore, we will work on cutting and pasting.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mr. Theunens, you now have had a chance to look at the second

Page 12762

 1     part of the video as well, and I'd like to talk to you a little bit about

 2     the context of everything that is transpiring for General Gotovina on the

 3     6th of August.

 4             Given that video, General Gotovina talks about 70 per cent of the

 5     task having been published by the 6th of August.

 6             Is it correct to say that the Split Military District forces, as

 7     well as other elements of the HV, still had to liberate the territory

 8     north of Knin, the Knin-Strmica area, to get to the international border

 9     of Republic of Croatia?

10        A.   It is correct that on the 6th, they were not yet at the border

11     between Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Now, General Gotovina there, at that point -- at that one point

13     in the video, talks about that they had solved the issue of the military

14     and political epicentre and, as a result, the rest came crumbing down

15     like a house of cards.

16             Are you familiar with the concept of -- the NATO concept of

17     centre of gravity, and can you explain that concept and this concept of

18     the military epicentre that General Gotovina is talking about, in the

19     context of Operation Storm?

20        A.   Indeed.  In the NATO - as a military dictionary, I'm not sure

21     whether it is AP2 or if it has another name - but at any rate, the

22     concept of centre of gravity is defined there as - I'm paraphrasing

23     because I don't remember the exact definition - factors that give the

24     opposing side his strength or his freedom of movement.  This is based on

25     what Clausewitz calls "schrerpunkt."

Page 12763

 1             There is a lot of philosophy and even academic articles about

 2     whether these are just like geographic concepts or whether it's about an

 3     ability or a particular type of unit.  I remember, for example, one

 4     article which I think was published in Parametres, which is a American

 5     military magazine, where, for example, in the previous Gulf or in the

 6     last Iraq conflict, for example, the guards in the Iraqi armed forces

 7     were a centre of gravity.  In other conflicts, a geographic concept, for

 8     example, a city or a location of a command centre can be a centre of

 9     gravity.

10        Q.   In the context of Operation Storm, would you agree that Knin was

11     the centre of gravity for the RSK?

12        A.   There is no doubt that Knin had an important psychological

13     relevance or importance, both for the local Serbs as well as for the

14     Croatian forces.  But from the purely military point of view, I would,

15     for example, also consider the corps of special units which had been

16     recently established in the SVK as a centre of gravity.

17        Q.   So would you say, then, that there were two centres of gravity?

18        A.   There may have --

19        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry.

20        A.   There may have been more.  The personality of Milan Martic could

21     have been a centre of gravity if he was the charismatic leader of the

22     Serbs who would, if he made a move, then the other Serbs would also make

23     a move, like, for example, we see in other conflicts.  Then he could have

24     been also defined as a centre of gravity.

25             I haven't analysed the centre of gravity of the SVK.  I'm just

Page 12764

 1     giving a theoretical answer based on my understanding of the term "centre

 2     of gravity" and what could have been centres of gravity within the

 3     so-called RSK and the SVK.

 4        Q.   Let me just follow up on your last answer.

 5             What happens from a military or theoretical perspective, let's

 6     say, if you have said Knin was an important psychological centre and

 7     Milan Martic may have been a centre of gravity, what happens if Milan

 8     Martic is in Knin?  Does that multiply the importance of both Knin and

 9     Mr. Martic?  Is there a synergistic effect between the two that raises

10     the level of the importance?

11        A.   I wouldn't say so, because it all depends of the value of Martic,

12     on the one hand, and the value of Knin, on the on the other hand.

13        Q.   Okay.  You saw -- I hope you noted there's a portion in this

14     video where General Gotovina yells at the commanders and says, "What's

15     the matter with you?"  I am paraphrasing now.  "Have you lost your desire

16     to fight?  The last few months you've told me that I had to keep you on a

17     leash or that you would start something yourselves."

18             Do you recall that portion of the video?

19        A.   I remembered the first part of your paraphrasing here.  I'm not

20     sure whether I heard "or that would you start something yourselves."  It

21     may be possible.  I am not doubting it.

22        Q.   You heard the reference to a leash?

23        A.   Indeed, I did.

24        Q.   Now, let me call your attention to pages 319 to 320 of your

25     report, part 2.  This in the notice section that have you to General

Page 12765

 1     Gotovina.

 2             You write:  "Ante Gotovina is familiar with the reputation and

 3     the behaviour of the subordinates during a meeting with President Tudjman

 4     and other senior HV military officials on 31 July 1995 in Brioni.

 5     Gotovina states, 'The forces heading towards Knin are 400 good

 6     infantrymen from the 3rd Battalion, the 126th Regiment, who are all from

 7     this area, and they know the area through and through.  They have reason

 8     to fight here, and, at this moment, it is difficult to keep them on a

 9     leash.'"

10             Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but was it your intention in

11     putting that quote in the section of notice of alleged serious crimes in

12     the zone of responsibility of the Split Military District during and

13     after Operation Oluja, that General Gotovina's reference to keeping them

14     on a leash was somehow intended to imply that these individuals are prone

15     to crime, and I have to keep them on a leash?

16        A.   The reason why I put that entry there is that a commander has to

17     be familiar with his troops, not only with the qualitative aspect, i.e.,

18     how many troop, how many tanks, but also the quantitative aspect, i.e.,

19     their combat readiness, their reputations.  Some units are stronger than

20     others.  And, in particular, in this context, we know there are units

21     made up of former refugees.

22             Now, for a commander, that is an important signal or important

23     indicator which may influence his decision-making process when he going

24     to give tasks to that unit.  That is one of the reasons or that is the

25     reason why I put this excerpt of the Brioni meeting minutes in this part

Page 12766

 1     of the report.

 2        Q.   But having heard General Gotovina speaking again, actually

 3     yelling back at those commanders, about "What is the matter?  Have you

 4     lost your will to fight?  A couple of months ago, you told me I had to

 5     keep you on a leash," do you agree with me that General Gotovina's

 6     reference there, when is he speaking at Brioni about having to keep them

 7     on a leash, refers to their battle readiness, their will to fight, their

 8     morale being high, and willingness to go into combat?

 9        A.   Well, high morale is a good thing, but one has to be very careful

10     as a commander if morale or what looks like morale is too high, because

11     there may well be a thin line between very high morale and desire to

12     revenge.  I emphasise this is a theoretical answer based on my training

13     and education, and, if you want, I can give examples of that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, let me try to see whether I understood your

15     question.

16             Was your question about using a leash as to pull the dog in the

17     right direction; or that you use the leash in order to hold the dog back

18     who wants to move forward too quickly.

19             That, apparently, is the issue Mr. Misetic wants to put to you,

20     and he, apparently, gained the impression that where you introduced it

21     here, it was that it was difficult to keep the dog back.  Whereas, he

22     puts to you whether what he saw on the video may give a different

23     explanation of the leash; that is, that would you have to pull the dog

24     forward to do what -- where the dog is apparently tired, to do what it is

25     expected to do.

Page 12767

 1             Mr. Misetic, that's the issue you wanted to put to Mr. Theunens?

 2             MR. MISETIC:  That's the second issue that I was going to

 3     address.  My issue is -- actually, let me put in as simple terms as I

 4     can.

 5        Q.   You make reference to the leash -- leash comment at Brioni, at

 6     page 319 and 320, in the context of the following sentences:  "Ante

 7     Gotovina is familiar with the reputation and the behaviour of his

 8     subordinates."  It is it in the section of notice of crime.

 9             My question to you is:  He is not making reference there about "I

10     have to keep them on a leash to hold them back from committing crime."

11     Right?  He is saying "I have to hold them back because they're so eager

12     to get into combat and to fight the enemy that I have to hold them back

13     on a leash."  Right?  That reference at Brioni has nothing to do with

14     "These are criminals and I am having a hard time containing them."

15        A.   Your Honours, the meeting in Brioni on 31st of July happens two

16     or three days after the events in Bosansko Grahovo and Glamoc, which we

17     have extensively discussed, and where there is extensive reference on

18     looting and burning in these two cities by units of the Split Military

19     District, and that is referred to the operational diary P71.

20             From the document I reviewed, in particular reports by the

21     assistant commanders for political affairs, as well as SIS and even

22     General Lausic alludes to that, units of the Home Defence, i.e., Home

23     Defence Regiment, are more likely or more involved to become involved in

24     incidents of looting and burning because of their makeup.  Why?  They

25     include refugees or internally displaced persons.

Page 12768

 1             When General Gotovina says, "who are all from this area," he

 2     indeed refers to people who have been displaced because of the conflict,

 3     and, as he describes it, they know the area through and through and they

 4     have a reason to fight.

 5             Based on my education and training and my understanding of the

 6     conflict, again, referring to the documents I have used in the report,

 7     such units, one has to be extra careful with a commander because there is

 8     a risk that they are more vulnerable to undesires or undisciplined

 9     behaviour, for example, as has been expressed in the documents reviewed

10     in the report, looting and burning.

11        Q.   First, Mr. Theunens, let me get back to what I was focussed on.

12     Let me first say I understand that you tend to fall back on "my

13     experience and training," which is then impossible for me to

14     cross-examine you on.  I'm interested more in -- and you seem to do that

15     when you can't cite to a specific document.

16             So let us get back into the documents, okay?  I'm not interested

17     in what you would do.  I'm interested in you're saying this is what

18     General Gotovina meant in his report.

19             All I'm trying to establish can with you is now, having seen

20     another video where General Gotovina references earlier conversations

21     with his subordinates - he is talking specifically about the 126th Home

22     Guard Regiment - "What's the matter with you guys?  A couple of months

23     ago you, told me that I had to keep you on a leash, and now you are

24     tired."

25             Does that additional piece of information now shed some light for

Page 12769

 1     you about what he meant at Brioni, about keeping them on a leash?

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. WAESPI:  I think one important distinction is the leash

 5     obviously is the common word.  But the people who are addressed in the

 6     Brioni meeting, these soldiers, subordinates, including commanders.  And

 7     in the tape we have just seen, he only talks about the commanders.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, that may be the case or may not be the

 9     case.  It may be relevant, it may not be relevant.  The use of the word

10     "leash" may be indicative or insignificant.  It is for the witness to

11     tell us whether what he just saw has any effect on the conclusions, or at

12     least the interpretation, of the quote we find on page 320, of which he

13     explained that his interpretation was guided by both the events in, among

14     other places, recently in Grahovo, and on the specific composition of

15     these troops.  It being that the units were composed of locals, which may

16     have become refugees meanwhile and would return to their place of origin.

17             That seems to be the question to me.

18             Mr. Theunens, could you answer the question.

19             THE WITNESS:  Indeed, Your Honours.  The video I have seen does

20     not change my conclusion.  And just to be complete, I would like to refer

21     to the quotation I make of D810, on page 339 of my report, footnote 1345.

22             MR. MISETIC:

23        Q.   Yes.  I have seen the quote and I don't know that that has to do

24     with the leash comment, but we'll move on.

25             There's a certain portion of the video where General Gotovina

Page 12770

 1     makes reference, and he says about the SIS, the military police, and

 2     political affairs, he says:  "Those services protect the army during the

 3     offensive.  They are the guarantee for military culture."

 4             Then he says to them:  "Political affairs, SIS, and military

 5     police, you are the most responsible here."

 6             Now, can you help us understand why General Gotovina is referring

 7     to those three services as the most responsible there?

 8        A.   Your Honours, I'm not entirely sure whether the, "you are the

 9     most responsible" when General Gotovina makes that comment, refers to

10     directly to what he stated earlier about, indeed, political affairs, SIS,

11     and military police.

12        Q.   Let me read back the quote directly.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, could you help us.  What page is it of

14     the transcript so that we --

15             MR. MISETIC:  It is page 4 of the transcript, third paragraph --

16     third paragraph from the bottom.

17        Q.   Let me read it for you.  I don't think you have a copy of the

18     transcript in front of you.

19             He says:  "And the guarantee for military culture and for the

20     military reputation of an army is its political activity, security

21     service, military police.  You are the most responsible people here for

22     all this mess that we have here.  That is why we have five hours until

23     then, fire hours to get the town itself in order, and that it be equipped

24     with everything necessary to await the Croatian leadership.

25             "Do you understand?"

Page 12771

 1             Now, help us understand why General Gotovina says that "the

 2     political activity, security service, and military police are the most

 3     responsible people here for all this mess that we have here."

 4        A.   In light of the documents I have reviewed, I consider this, if

 5     this is what General Gotovina said, a rather unusual conclusion, because

 6     the orders we have for the enforcement of discipline are all directed

 7     from an operational commander to his subordinate commanders.  They only

 8     mention or identify SIS and political affairs as organs that can assist

 9     in achieving or in restoring discipline or preventing looting and

10     burning.

11             It is obvious that SIS and political affairs, they advised the

12     commander.  That's why we have an assistant commander for political

13     affairs, an assistant commander for SIS.  But these people do not have

14     command authority.  Command authority rests with the operational

15     commander.  It is up to the operational commander to use the advice he

16     receives from his assistants for political affairs and SIS, to issue

17     orders and, most importantly, to verify the implementation of these

18     orders.  The same applies in a different context to the military police.

19             But SIS cannot go and talk to each an individual soldier of the

20     military police and tell them, "Well, have you to respect discipline."

21     That's now how it is working.  It goes through the operational chain of

22     command.

23        Q.   Well, first, while I'm looking up a document, if you could please

24     tell me, you qualify that by saying "if that is what General Gotovina --

25     if this is what General Gotovina said."  Is there some reason that you

Page 12772

 1     question the video?

 2        A.   No, no, I don't question the video.  But I remember when General

 3     Gotovina makes that comment, the camera goes to the operational

 4     commanders, and I can see, for example, General Korade.  Now whether that

 5     is just the way how the video is being filmed, I don't know, but that is

 6     at least based on my military background and my understanding of how such

 7     meetings go.  The comment "you are responsible for this,' to me, it was

 8     clear, well, look General Gotovina has gathered his subordinate

 9     commanders for a particular reason, and this is one of the messages he

10     wants to convey to his subordinate commanders.

11             MR. MISETIC:  One moment, Mr. President.

12             Mr. Registrar, if we could have P918 on the screen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  When we're waiting for it, Mr. Misetic, and

14     Mr. Waespi, of course, we've seen the video or at least other portions of

15     the video before.  I don't remember exactly whether any commanders of the

16     military police were present.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any agreement on who exactly is present and

19     who is not?

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Budimir.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Budimir.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Also the commanders of -- there is an

23     assistant for political affairs present from the command of the Split

24     Military District, but there is also a "coordinator" from the political

25     affairs branch from Zagreb who has been sent down and who is present at

Page 12773

 1     the meeting, and who is not a member of the Split Military District.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, that's agreed upon about the presence of

 3     these persons.

 4             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  I have to verify whether there are more people

 5     present.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  I forgot to tender the second portion of the video.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Second portion.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, the version we got was from the

10     Croatian government, and I also think that what we also got is a version

11     from the Internet, which is 65 ter 3780.  I still believe that the --

12     what we have seen is not the complete version.

13             So going back to my earlier point, we would like to have the

14     complete version, if we can get it, of the whole meeting.  So we would

15     like to make sure that what we have in 3780 is encompassed by what my

16     friend is tendering now, and we can compare that.

17             MR. MISETIC:  I thought it was, Your Honour, but I could be

18     corrected on that.  I thought it did encompass what they had.  I am aware

19     of any additional material on this meeting that is in exixtance.  I can

20     tell you that the portions that I believe are deleted from the

21     Prosecution's videos are the portions where this portion about the SIS,

22     political affairs, and military police --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently being addressed.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  That was deleted from the video.  Deleted

25     from the video was General Gotovina saying "All war booty needs to be

Page 12774

 1     logged and collected."  It was deleted from the OTP version that was

 2     provided by the Croatian government.  There's one mother area, I believe,

 3     "the house of cards and the epicentre" is also not present in the video.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, Mr. Misetic seems to be quite confident

 5     that the portion he played was disclosed to you.  Of course, if you want

 6     to compare that with other versions, even versions you may have found on

 7     the Internet, then that --  at this moment, would this cause you to

 8     object or to make a reservation, or would you say no objections, but we

 9     reserve our position, as to adding if we find more.

10             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct, your last point.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour this becomes Exhibit D979.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D979 is admitted into evidence.

14             Mr. Waespi, how much time you think need to compare this so that

15     we -- let's say within the last week at least.

16             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's sufficient.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  As I said, it may very

19     well be that there is some extra portion because, as I said, they were

20     taken from two different cameras.  So it is possible that somebody taped

21     something a little bit before or after what I played, but I am not aware

22     of it.  I certainly would not have an objection if there was additional

23     material that needs to be introduced.  That's fine.

24        Q.   While we're talking about the political affairs branch and how

25     this works, this is now Exhibit P918 which you referred to, correct, in

Page 12775

 1     your direct?

 2        A.   Yes, and also in my report page 336 and 337.

 3        Q.   Now, let's first, if we can read the second paragraph, it is not

 4     indented, but I believe it should be a second paragraph.

 5             It says:  "However ..." -- first of all, note that it is sent to

 6     assistant commanders for political affairs, meaning within the Split

 7     Military District, at all the levels in the military.  Correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  The assistant commanders for political affairs in the

 9     subordinate units.  I believe on the last page, it also indicates that

10     the Split Military District command received it for info.

11        Q.   Yes.  That is become it is coming from -- essentially from the

12     assistant for political affairs of the Split Military District Command.

13     Correct?  It's signed on his behalf by Mr. Tomasovic, but it's --

14             MR. MISETIC:  If we scroll to the top.

15        Q.   You see who the issuer is?  It's the Split Military District who

16     is issuing the warning.

17        A.   Yeah, the political affairs section.  But if we go to the last

18     page --

19        Q.   No, no.  I understand that it's copied, but let's just establish,

20     first of all, the person sending the warning is, in fact, a member of the

21     Split Military District Command; right?

22        A.   That's correct.

23             MR. MISETIC:  If we can scroll down.

24        Q.   We'll get to the next page.  The second paragraph is:  "However,

25     because of the irresponsibility of individual soldiers, non-commissioned

Page 12776

 1     officers, and officers, who compromise the Croatian army and state

 2     through their inappropriate conduct and acts, this success has been

 3     partly brought into question," and then there is an bolded part about the

 4     international community could undertake measures which have unforeseeable

 5     consequences.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Now, let's go to the next portion.

 7        Q.   It says:  "For this reason and following the policy of the

 8     supreme commander, Dr. Franjo Tudjman, as well as the instructions of the

 9     defence minister and the political administration of the defence ministry

10     of the Republic of Croatia, it is necessary to immediately prevent the

11     following:  Continued torching and destruction of facilities and property

12     throughout the entire liberated territory; killing of livestock;

13     confiscation of property; inappropriate conduct toward remaining

14     civilians and prisoners of war and especially towards members and

15     soldiers of the peace forces."

16             Now, first, based on your review of the documents, would you

17     agree with me, based on this document and other similar references to,

18     for example, Mr. Lausic on the meeting in the 15th of September, who also

19     referenced state policy and that the persons present at the meeting were

20     the only ones responsible for complementing the policy of preventing this

21     crime, that document, this document, would you agree with me that

22     subordinates of President Tudjman and subordinates of Minister Susak

23     thought that it was policy, their policy, to prevent torching and

24     destruction of facilities, prevent killing of livestock, prevent

25     confiscation of property, prevent inappropriate conduct toward remaining

Page 12777

 1     civilians, et cetera, as stated there?

 2        A.   My interpretation of the inclusion of Mr. Tudjman and Mr. Susak

 3     of the warning was intended to reinforce or to strengthen the warning.

 4        Q.   I agree that that's why those are included.  But based on the

 5     fact that they specifically are being included and subordinates are

 6     specifically being told that the policies of the president and the

 7     defence minister are to prevent this type of illegal conduct, do you

 8     agree with me that the subordinates of President Tudjman and Minister

 9     Susak were told that policy is to stop these things from happening?

10        A.   Yeah, that's what the document states.  However, it was also

11     stated at earlier times, and it is just an application or implementation

12     of the Code of Discipline, that armed forces do not burn or loot or do

13     not undertake activities as those listed in under 1, 2, 3, and 4.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   I think it should be -- it's standard operating procedure.

16        Q.   Now, the assistant for political affairs, second paragraph from

17     the bottom, says:  "In order to implement the above, political workers

18     bear special responsibility and are required to inform the unit

19     commanders of the above and to take measures to present crimes," and then

20     in bold:  "In cooperation with the information and security service, or

21     SIS, and the military police, take repressive measures and launch

22     disciplinary proceedings [sic] against those who do not abide by the

23     instructions."

24             Now, explain to us, especially in light of General Gotovina's

25     comments on the video on the 6th, under the Croatian laws, rules, and

Page 12778

 1     regulations, how did the political affairs, SIS, and military police take

 2     repressive measures and launch disciplinary procedures in cooperation

 3     with each other?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I believe there's a translation issue.  I have

 5     quoted from the English translation, and that's on page 337 in my report.

 6     The English translation with ERN 0306-1654 - 0306-1654, where the texts

 7     of these paragraphs is as follows:  "For the implementation of this,

 8     particular responsibility shall be with the commanders of the units and

 9     political officials within the units ..."  --

10        Q.   If I can stop threw, Mr. Theunens.  You obviously are unaware

11     that both the Prosecution and the Defence are both in agreement that the

12     translation in your report is wrong, and the translation on the screen is

13     right.  You will note that this is a P document I have put on the screen

14     for you.

15        A.   I have not been informed of that.

16        Q.   Well, how does that --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You are by now informed that there seems to be

18     agreement, Mr. Waespi.

19             MR. WAESPI:  We'll have to check the history of this.  I'm sure

20     that --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I take that we are not going to quarrel about

22     whether there is an the agreement on an error in translation.

23             So if would you please focus on the text as you see it on your

24     screen at this moment.

25             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

Page 12779

 1             MR. MISETIC:  I can advise Mr. Waespi that Mr. Margetts and I

 2     both worked out that this is the accurate translation on the screen.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Indeed.  So the paragraph in the document

 4     highlights the responsibility of the members of the department for

 5     political affairs to explain the importance of the matters discussed in

 6     the warning to -- to the operational commander, in order to allow him or

 7     to encourage him to take the appropriate measures, so that the

 8     measures -- I mean, the warning is being implemented and that the

 9     unlawful activities are being stopped or prevented.

10             MR. MISETIC:

11        Q.   I was more -- even more interested, I should say, in the next

12     paragraph.  And if you could explain to us again with your knowledge of

13     the rules, regulations, and laws of the Republic of Croatia, how it is

14     that the political affairs, in cooperation with the SIS, and the military

15     police, can take repressive measures and launch disciplinary procedures.

16        A.   That paragraph is not coherent with what is stipulated in the

17     Code of Discipline.  I mean, the imposition of disciplinary measures -- I

18     mean, the authority for the imposition of disciplinary measures lies with

19     the operational commander.  The assistant commanders for SIS and

20     political affairs can discover crimes or violations of discipline like

21     any other member of the armed forces, but the rest of the procedure is

22     the operational commander, and then depending on the seriousness of the

23     cases, the military prosecutor and military court, or military

24     disciplinary prosecutor and military prosecutor intervene, and the

25     military police can assist with the investigation.

Page 12780

 1        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I call your attention, again, to you our discussion

 2     where I pointed out, I believe, Article 15 of the regulations of the work

 3     of the military police.  Do you recall that?

 4             It's about them being able to identify violators of military

 5     discipline -- disciplinary reports against violators of military

 6     discipline, bring in violators of military discipline.

 7             In other words, do you agree with me that the military police

 8     under its regulations had independent powers to monitor, identify, and

 9     bring in violators of military discipline, and file complaints against

10     them for violations of military discipline?

11             That is it part of their powers, isn't it?

12        A.   Yes.  Independent but not exclusively .

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, if you know that, then when you read this

14     paragraph again, where you first say that it is not coherent the Code of

15     Discipline, isn't, in fact, very coherent?  Political affairs has the

16     duty to constantly remind, educate, and advise members of the military of

17     their duties to comply with discipline and the law.  SIS has the

18     obligation to uncover and provide information from within the units

19     themselves about violations of military discipline and to report on it.

20     The military police is the executor that can then take action against

21     those violators once that information is received, bring them in, and

22     have a disciplinary report filed against the individual.

23             Aren't all three services, in fact, compatible in what their

24     functions are in enforcing discipline?

25        A.   No.  I mean, they can play a role, but it -- the Code of

Page 12781

 1     Discipline does not state, for example, that the assistant commander for

 2     SIS can impose disciplinary measures.  It is the operational commander.

 3             It is also the operational commander from the company commander

 4     level onwards who can arrest alleged perpetrators.  There is no mention

 5     in the Code of Discipline that such an authority or such a power lies

 6     with the assistant commander for political affairs or the assistant

 7     commander for SIS.

 8             I think I would also like to draw your attention to 65 ter 2305,

 9     which is addressed in on pages 335 and 336 of my report.  And if you

10     allow me, I will read out one of the paragraphs I have quoted in my

11     report.

12        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I have a feeling I know where we're going.  First

13     of all, I think you have covered that in your direct.  So let's -- in the

14     interests of time, let's focus again, because you then, in your answer,

15     limit yourself to SIS and political affairs not being able to take

16     specific measures.  That's not what I said in my question.

17             You left out the military police part.  Now, the military police,

18     in fact, can take measures, file reports for violations of discipline,

19     right?

20        A.   That is correct.  I answered you that question where I said it is

21     not exclusively the military police.

22        Q.   Okay.  No one said it was exclusively military police.  But in

23     terms of the scheme, when General Gotovina on the 6th is telling them,

24     "You are the people most responsible," among their jobs is to bring to

25     the attention of commanders violations of discipline.  For example, at

Page 12782

 1     check-points, if there are soldiers who are caught with looted goods,

 2     right, somebody from the military police has to file a disciplinary

 3     report with that person's commander saying, "This person was caught at a

 4     check-point with stolen goods."  Right?

 5        A.   It is, indeed, among the jobs of the military police to inform

 6     the operational commander of such activities, yes.

 7        Q.   And if, for example, a commander finds that 150 of his men have

 8     not reported for duty, on a particular day or in a particular week, their

 9     roaming liberated territories, he doesn't know where they are, whose job

10     is it to find them and bring them back?  So they -- for example, if they

11     are engaging in crime, they can come back to the unit and appropriate

12     measures can be taken against them.

13        A.   Indeed.  I think, in that context, it is important to draw your

14     attention to Article 25 of P880, where it is stated that commanders of

15     brigades, independent battalions, equal and higher HV commanders, are

16     authorised to send such requests to the military police battalion.

17             So the start of the search activity or the initiative, I'm sorry,

18     is taken by the operational commander, and that is the whole issue we are

19     discussing here.  Obviously, it is clear that the military police has a

20     task to perform, and there are some aspects they perform on their.  But

21     it is -- the operation commander cannot say, well, it is not my problem,

22     it is the military police.  No.

23             He has a responsibility to enforce discipline in his units, and

24     he can use the military police as a tool, and, therefore, he can give

25     instructions to the military police to assist him.  That is how it

Page 12783

 1     functions in the military.

 2        Q.   Of course.  Now you are arguing something that General Gotovina

 3     never says in the video.  He says "You are the most responsible."  He

 4     doesn't say, "You are solely responsible."

 5        A.   No.  I was trying to answer to your question, because you had a

 6     particular question about 150 soldiers roaming.  Indeed, the military

 7     police can then be used in order to locate these individuals and bring

 8     them to the unit.  But the order or the -- I mean, it is the operational

 9     commander who issues the initial task to the military police or who

10     requests them to locate and bring in these soldiers.

11        Q.   In that that context.  In a different context, for example, at

12     check-point, it is up to the military police itself to report that.  They

13     don't need a specific request from a commander to say, "Tell me how many

14     of my men you caught at check-point looting."  Right?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.  They will inform the operational commander

16     if they catch or they discover members of his unit who are involved in

17     illegal activities.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, Mr. Theunens, I'd like to go back to the Knin video

19     for one moment.

20             You noticed that there that General Gotovina gives an oral order

21     about the logging of war booty.  Correct?

22        A.   Yes.  There are also written orders from General Gotovina to that

23     effect.

24        Q.   Yes.  Let me -- while we're on the topic of what is happening on

25     6th and 7th, let me also show you --

Page 12784

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, may I please have 1D63-0195.

 2        Q.   These are -- what I am about to show you, Mr. Theunens, I don't

 3     believe you have seen before.  We have translated an excerpt from the

 4     minutes of the 259th Session of the Government of the Republic of Croatia

 5     held on the 7th of August, 1995.

 6             You see, at the top, what these are the minutes of.  You can see

 7     all -- the prime minister is present, the various deputy prime ministers,

 8     the various ministers including Ministers Susak and Jarnjak.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 2 in the English

10     translation, please, which is page 3 of the Croatian.

11        Q.   It's Minister of Defence Susak reporting to the government.  He

12     states:  "The operation was completed quicker than was expected for which

13     credit must also be given to the excellent cooperation between the

14     Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Interior which immediately set up

15     police station within the liberated areas.

16             The Minister of Defence Susak also stated that he had signed a

17     decision for the demobilisation of 70.000 soldiers today.

18             And on page 4 of the Croatian.  It says:  "The minister of the

19     interior, Ivan Jarnjak, informed the government that the Croatian police

20     had assumed the task of ensuring public order and peace within the newly

21     liberated territories, adding that the members of the civilian protection

22     services were entering these territories to conduct the sanitation of the

23     terrain.

24             "The minister of the internal affairs also thanked the minister

25     of defence for the exceptional cooperation between the two ministries

Page 12785

 1     during this operation."

 2             Now, Mr. Theunens, when were you were preparing your report, were

 3     you aware that, as of, at the latest, the 7th of August, the Ministry of

 4     Internal Affairs had taken over in the newly liberated territories the

 5     task of ensuring public order and peace?

 6        A.   I'm not aware of -- I was not aware of the specific date, but I

 7     am familiar with the fact that civilian police stations are being

 8     established, including for the purpose of ensuring public order and --

 9     and the rule of law.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I asked that this exhibit be marked

11     and I tender it into evidence.

12             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D980.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D980 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have 65 ter 982,

17     please.

18        Q.   This is an order following the meeting on the 6th.  General

19     Gotovina issues another order which says:  "With reference to the

20     indicated need to register the war booty on the liberated territory, I

21     here issue the following order ..."

22             And he forms a committee:  "A committee shall be formed at the

23     Split Military District level for registering and recording complete war

24     booty on the liberated territory in the Split Military District zone of

25     responsibility, and the committee shall consist of the following

Page 12786

 1     members."

 2             The members of the committee are identified.

 3             "The tasks of the committee are to register and record the war

 4     booty in the Split Military District zone.  Distribution of weapons,

 5     ammunition, and explosives.

 6             If we could turn to page 3, item 7.  He orders that:  "The

 7     committee chairman shall submit a comprehensive written report by 1800

 8     hours on 11 August 1995."

 9             Now, looking at this order and combined with what General

10     Gotovina says at the meeting on the 6th, he is taking measures actually

11     to verify what his subordinate units are registering as war booty.

12     Correct?

13        A.   That is correct.  And this document is also included in my report

14     on page 376, part 2.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this exhibit be marked

17     and I tender it into evidence.

18             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D981, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D981 is admitted into evidence.

22             Mr. Misetic, any way of perhaps hearing from this witness what

23     the TTS abbreviation stands for?

24             MR. MISETIC:

25        Q.   Mr. Theunens --

Page 12787

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you tell us the committees tasks shall be as

 2     follows, and then the second, distribution of weapons, ammunition, and

 3     explosives, and TTS.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I would have to check, Mr. President.  But if I'm

 5     allowed during the break, I can ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you -- at any later point in time you could

 7     assist us, that would be appreciated.

 8             THE WITNESS:  MTS stands for military technical goods, so that's

 9     twice, the S, but I will check for the T, TS.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  Mr. President, let me just note that I have,

11     rather than take time here, I have several reports from subordinate units

12     listing their war booty which I will prepare a chart and give it to the

13     Prosecution and move from the bar table about all the reports of the

14     subordinate units on what war booty they reported.

15             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  I have seen the documents.  No objections.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm -- may I take it that you will prepare a

17     list for Mr. Registrar.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, I will.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think bar table documents, wasn't there a

20     procedure which we -- so that we know also what we're talking about.  I

21     think I -- the Chamber give instructions that it should be clear what to

22     focus on.  Sometimes they are more lengthy; documents sometimes --

23     perhaps you would just a brief description to be given to the other party

24     to see whether there's any objection against characterizing the document

25     or the specific portion which we are supposed to pay attention to so that

Page 12788

 1     we are not just guided by numbers but also by the characterization of

 2     content which assists us in deciding on admission.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, we will certainly no later than Monday

 4     do that, and I will put it on the record as to what exactly it is.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. MISETIC:

 8        Q.   Mr. Theunens -- let me find one document here.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  One moment, please.

10             Mr. Registrar, if I could 65 ter 2305, please.

11        Q.   I believe you made reference to this report on direct examination

12     as well.

13             Now, this is another report from the political activities unit

14     for OG North.  In it, it's reported that Colonel Ivan Zelic and Colonel

15     Ivan Ceko, pursuant to an order of Lieutenant-General Ante Gotovina, if

16     we could scroll down a little bit, concerning performing the assignments

17     relating to political activities and providing support to the civilian

18     structures and overseeing all other elements transferred on to Knin,

19     5 August 1995, in order it carry out the assignments there.

20             The legal assistant paragraph says:  "Moreover, due to inertia

21     and lack of readiness on the part of civilian bodies and structures to

22     carry out their tasks immediately in the first days and to take on

23     further organisation and management of the town, we have encountered a

24     lot of problems that were impossible to solve without the support of

25     civilian bodies, and there are attempts to put the blame for this on the

Page 12789

 1     PD service."

 2             Now, as part of your analysis of events here, is it correct that

 3     part of the problems in restoring order in the newly liberated

 4     territories generally and Knin specifically was the lack of preparedness

 5     by the civilian structures to establish law and order quickly upon

 6     liberation?

 7             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could turn the page, Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Do wish me to answer now?

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   Oh, yeah.  The problem in relation with the civilian authorities

12     is, based on the documents I reviewed, is a problem to -- to be

13     effective, i.e., their ability to restore order and law, and it's not so

14     much a question of preparedness or readiness.  The documents I see

15     indicate, like, they try but they can't.

16        Q.   Was that a general problem?  Both civilian and military

17     structures, they're trying but they can't?

18        A.   When I -- I mean, my answer in the previous question refers to,

19     for example, the letters Mr. Moric, assistant minister of the interior,

20     sends to General Lausic.  There are several ones during the second half

21     of the month of August, where Mr. Moric complains or states that the

22     civilian police cannot act against people in uniform and cannot establish

23     whether they are really military or not.

24             Now, that the military structures are trying but can't, I mean,

25     then we have a fundamental problem with the military, because, as we have

Page 12790

 1     seen, military discipline is one of the duties of the commander.  If he

 2     cannot enforce or restore discipline among his units, then he -- he

 3     should inform his superiors of that, and instead of conducting combat

 4     operations where actually a high level of discipline is essential to be

 5     successful, and that was also pointed out by, I think, General Gotovina

 6     at the video, he should inform his superior commander about the problems

 7     he has and request the superior commander to postpone the launching of

 8     combat operations until he, i.e., the subordinate commander, has managed

 9     to restore discipline among his units.

10        Q.   Well, in light of the fact that you have seen numerous orders

11     being issued, again, my question was:  Do you agree that the will was

12     there.  In certain cases the execution failed on both the civilian and

13     military sides in the early days of Operation Storm?

14        A.   I have only systematically removed military documents and the

15     conclusion I have drawn, in relation to the enforcement of discipline

16     only addresses -- is only based on these military documents, whereby my

17     conclusion is that the rate -- I mean, the volume of orders and the rate

18     at which they are issued by the Split Military District as well as by

19     subordinate commanders, indicated there is a problem with the

20     implementation or the enforcement of these orders.

21             If you have to issue an order for specific activity or to stop

22     active several times, well, things will not get better by just re-issuing

23     the orders.  You have to as a commander envisage other measures, first of

24     all, verify why you have -- why the order you have issued is not abided

25     by, and then subsequently change your approach, and maybe undertake

Page 12791

 1     additional measures, in order to guarantee that the orders you issue are

 2     implemented.

 3        Q.   Rest assured, Mr. Theunens, you and I will be discussing that

 4     topic and that opinion shortly.  However, is the answer to the question I

 5     posed "Yes"?

 6        A.   Well, the conclusion for the military is, indeed, that the

 7     execution, based on documents I reviewed, failed.

 8        Q.   But the will was there?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I tried to understand what the answer of the witness

10     to your question is.  You tried to simplify matters.  I understand the

11     answer of the witness to be that, on the basis of the orders issued, that

12     that expresses a will and, at the same time, he draws our attention to

13     the fact that if these orders are not implemented, that he would expect

14     something in addition or something else to be done, in order to make that

15     will effective on the ground.

16             So whether it is yes or no, I think that the answer is a bit more

17     complex.

18             Have you understood your answer well?

19             THE WITNESS:  Exactly, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Misetic.

21             MR. MISETIC:  As I said, Mr. President, with regard to that

22     second opinion, you'll hear a lot in cross-examination soon on that

23     opinion.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I'm just trying to understand.  You more

25     or less saying to the witness, Now was it yes or no?  He gave an answer

Page 12792

 1     with more shades of grey than you put to him when you ask him, Is it

 2     black and white.  That's what I what I wanted to clarify.

 3             Mr. Misetic, you said that you would go over several matters with

 4     the witness, but I take it that will you do that after the break.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a break, and we will resume at five

 7     minutes to 1.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Theunens, let's keep going.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit D204,

14     please.

15        Q.   This is, Mr. Theunens, as you know, the order of General Gotovina

16     on 10th of August.  In it, he says he is basing this information from the

17     areas liberated by the HV.  I'll just note that one of those pieces of

18     information would be that report from the 6th Home Guards commander,

19     Mr. Klarec, that you used on direct, I believe, the day before.

20             And following that, he issues another order which is to prevent

21     theft of property, undisciplined conduct, and to save human lives.  The

22     first point is:  "I prohibit arbitrary movement of the HV members in the

23     liberated areas without the knowledge of their superior commanders."

24             Now the fact that that is point 1 of the order, does that, from a

25     military point of view, indicate that that is a problem that he is trying

Page 12793

 1     to resolve?

 2        A.   The fact that General Gotovina includes this instruction in his

 3     order, indeed, means from the military point of view that there have been

 4     problems in that area.

 5        Q.   Which would mean problems in the fact that the soldiers were

 6     arbitrarily moving in the liberated areas without the knowledge of their

 7     superior commanders.  Correct?

 8        A.   Exactly.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  If we could scroll down please.

10        Q.   He then orders that they:  "Take all necessary measures and fully

11     engage in the implementation of the military disciplinary conduct and the

12     maintenance of order in the area of responsibility and prevent arson and

13     all other illegal acts.  Take resolute measures against anybody who

14     conducts himself in an undisciplined manner."

15             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can turn the page, please.

16        Q.   "The order entered into force immediately, and I designate the

17     commanders of the directly subordinated units to be in charge of its

18     implementation."

19             Now, I don't know if you want me to if through, but you will

20     agree with me that these orders were then passed down to subordinate

21     commanders.  We have examples as D841, D644, D205, as examples.  Those

22     are, for example, the order, D644, is the commander of the 142nd passing

23     it down.  D205 is the commander of the 113th passing it down.

24             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could have on the screen --

25             THE WITNESS:  Can I just say something about this document here,

Page 12794

 1     D204.  I think it is also important to note that it is sent to the

 2     command of OG Zadar, which actually links it to the events that happened

 3     in Benkovac after it was -- or control was taken over Benkovac by units

 4     of the Split Military District.  We have 65 ter 2741 on page 328 of part

 5     two of my report that provides additional background.

 6        Q.   Well, you don't know whether 65 ter 2741 was the foundation for

 7     this order or not, other than the fact that Benkovac falls within

 8     operative group Zadar; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  And the fact that in Benkovac, there were problems after

10     the entry of units of the Split Military District in relation to the

11     matters highlighted in General Gotovina's order.  And 65 ter 2741

12     describes these problems in great detail.

13        Q.   You will agree with me that you giving a partial explanation

14     there, because that is on the 5th.  Then on the 6th and 7th and 8th, it

15     talks about problems because civilians are entering Benkovac and causing

16     problems; right?

17        A.   Indeed.  But I think at the introduction of the question, you

18     refer to a particular document, and I thought it was useful also to draw

19     the Trial Chamber's attention to other documents dealing with the same

20     issues.

21        Q.   Right.  And let me just invite you, if you can, to try to stick

22     to the questions, because we tend to have to go off on a tangent when you

23     insist on finding things useful to insert into your answers.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, may I please have D841 on the

25     screen, please.

Page 12795

 1             Mr. President, I'm reminded that before the break, I showed 65

 2     ter 2305 and failed to ask that it be marked and tendered.  I don't know

 3     if the Prosecution has already tendered it.  It may be on their list

 4     already.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  I have to check that, but obviously I have no

 6     objections.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, Mr. Misetic that was the --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  10th of --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  10th August.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Reporting on the failure of the civilian

11     structures on the 5th of August to carry out assignments there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, Mr. Waespi.

13             Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D982.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D982 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   This is now the OG Sibenik order passing down General Gotovina's

18     order.  It is issued on the same day.  Correct?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.

20        Q.   Okay.  So, just so that we follow how things are transpiring, on

21     the 10th of August, General Gotovina issues another order, subordinate

22     commanders pass that order down.  Before the break, we saw the political

23     affairs warning from the 13th of August that was issued by the political

24     affairs assistant from the Split Military District to political affairs

25     workers, and that is within a period of about three days.

Page 12796

 1             Now, I'd like to talk to you a little bit about what is happening

 2     militarily in the zone of responsibility of the Split Military District

 3     between the 11th of August and, let's say, the 19th of August.

 4             Is there any combat going on that the Split Military District is

 5     engaged during that week?

 6        A.   Your Honours, I discussed those aspects on English page 146 of

 7     part 2 of the report, where I stated main tasks initially consist of

 8     mopping-up the area, i.e., remove or eliminate remaining enemy presence.

 9             On the 12th of August, and that is based on P482, the VRS carries

10     out a limited counter-attack in the Bosansko Grahovo area.  General

11     Gotovina reacts by ordering a counter-attack by battalions belonging to

12     the 4th and 7th Guards Brigade.  That, again, comes from P428, as well as

13     65 ter 1128.

14             There is an order on the 13th of August by the 7th Home Guard

15     Regiment for mopping-up operations.  Based on the military system, I

16     mean, command and control, the order should have come from the superior

17     command of the 7th Home Guard Regiment, and again then from the superior

18     command of that command and that would be the command of the Split

19     Military District.

20             I don't know whether you want me to continue through the

21     report --

22        Q.   Let me ask you a different question, and you've pointed out to

23     the right topic.

24             How many casualties did the HV take during that week?

25        A.   I may have seen casualties figures in documents, but I have no

Page 12797

 1     exact recollection of particular figures for that week.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have 65 ter 1200,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   This is the weekly report of the Split Military District to the

 6     Main Staff for the week of 11 August to 18 August.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If we scroll down the first page, it talks about

 8     enemy offensive activities in OG Vrba.

 9        Q.   "Enemy was actively using its artillery, multiple rocket

10     launchers and, tanks against the defence front line, as well as in depth

11     of the territory on August 1995.

12             "OG Sajkovic, on August 13th 1995, the enemy was active in the

13     area of the Derala mountain pass using its artillery and infantry.  At

14     around 0630 hours, the enemy managed to breakthrough the front defence

15     line taking the positions at Biljeg, Cigelj, Vidovica ..."

16             MR. MISETIC:  Can we turn the page, please.

17             2.1:  "Measures taken:  On August 13, units of OG Sajkovic area

18     of responsibility were busy in recapturing lost positions and in

19     organising a counter-attack permanently securing the Derala pass."

20             Again, at the next point, on the 14th, they launched an offensive

21     to recapture lost positions.

22             15th, there's more units attack in the direction of

23     Bosansko Grahovo and Resanovci.

24             Go to the bottom, which is section 2.3:  "Our losses in the

25     reporting period."

Page 12798

 1             MR. MISETIC:  And if we turn the page 3 in English.

 2        Q.   "On August 13, 1995, 14 members of the 141st HV Brigade and one

 3     member of the 6th Home Guard Regiment were killed, two seriously wounded,

 4     and 72 were lightly wounded or injured as a result of the enemy's combat

 5     activities along the direction Drvar, Grahovo, Derala Pass, Knin.

 6             On 15th August, during the HV units' offensive in the direction

 7     of Drvar, two members of the 126th Home Guard Regiment were killed, two

 8     members of the 4th HV guards were seriously wounded; whereas, three

 9     members of the 4th Guards Brigade, and two members of the 113th Infantry

10     Brigade were lightly wounded."

11             Now, from a military perspective, Mr. Theunens, taking 15

12     casualties in a three-day period is a significant event, is it not?

13             I mean 15 deaths, especially for the Split Military District?

14        A.   It is, and the commander would be taking appropriate action as to

15     have an investigation mounted in order to determine the causes of this

16     high losses, and then, obviously, take measures to avoid a reputation of

17     such high losses.

18        Q.   Well, these high losses, does that indicate to you that there was

19     serious counter-offensive by the Bosnian Serb forces?

20        A.   Not necessarily, because it could, for example, be that these

21     soldiers were caught by surprise, that they were not alert.  It could be

22     that they were, for example, on the front line in an unprotected

23     position, there's an impact of an artillery -- of artillery grenades.

24     They haven't been warned in time to go to their fortified positions, and

25     then you would have such high losses.  So I think the matter is more

Page 12799

 1     complicated than just say, well, 15 people killed, so there has to be a

 2     severe attack.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Let's look at P1131, Mr. Registrar, if you would,

 4     please.  1131.

 5        Q.   This is a document you used in direct examination, and this is an

 6     order signed by General Ademi on General Gotovina's behalf.

 7             It says:  "In accordance with the need and in order to secure

 8     tactical in-depth defence, for the remaining or inserted groups of enemy

 9     soldiers, I hereby order:

10             "The commander of the 72nd Military Police Battalion shall

11     urgently send an anti-terrorist platoon to the area of Strmica with a

12     task to search and mop-up the general area of Strmica for the remaining

13     or inserted enemy groups.

14             "2, The search of the terrain is to be carried out together with

15     the parts of the 6th Home Guard Regiment deployed in the area of Strmica.

16             "3, Details of the task will be given to the ATG commander upon

17     reporting to the Split Military District Command, Knin IZM in Knin.

18             "4, Deadline for the execution of this order is immediately."

19             Now, you have talked several times about documents not being

20     taken out of context.  The context of this order is that the Split

21     Military District Command has taken 14 casualties killed on that day;

22     right?

23        A.   That is it part of the context, yes.  These events seem to happen

24     on the same date.

25        Q.   Now, from a military perspective, do you see given the close

Page 12800

 1     prosecution its of Strmica to the Bosansko Grahovo area and the fact that

 2     these deaths occur in the area of Bosnia, why a commander would want to

 3     send to an anti-terrorist in his depth behind him to search and mop-up

 4     the terrain for remaining and inserted enemy groups, given that he has

 5     taken 14 deaths on that day?

 6        A.   Yeah, the commander will have made his what he would call

 7     appreciation.  Taking into the account the nature of the terrain and the

 8     nature of the enemy he expects there, he is uses what he considers the

 9     most appropriate force or unit or type of unit he has available, and

10     that's why, among his forces, he uses the anti-terrorist group of the

11     72nd Military Police Battalion.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, when we were talking about when an operational

13     commander uses the military police, is this an example of an operational

14     commander in the military District employing the military police for a

15     combat purpose, to assist his responsibilities as an operational

16     commander?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   This order to mop-up was not, would you agree, as part of a

19     mop-up order generally after Operation Storm related to leftover RSK

20     units, necessarily?

21        A.   I mean, strictly speaking, the document does not allow to

22     conclude to which army, whether it is SVK or VRS, these remaining groups

23     belong.  However, in context of the previous document, yes, that would

24     point towards VRS.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Theunens.

Page 12801

 1             Mr. Theunens, I'd like to go back to P71 now.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  English page 109; B/C/S page 69.

 3             I again failed to tender 65 ter 1200, Mr. President.

 4             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D983, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D983 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Go to the entry on the right-hand side of the

 9     screen, and on the right-hand side in the Croatian as well.

10        Q.   This is an entry again you referenced in direct examination.  It

11     concerns General Gotovina's reference to where it says "preparations for

12     the winter" in the middle of the page.

13             MR. MISETIC:  If we go to page, let me see.

14        Q.   Maybe you can help me, Mr. Theunens.  I'm looking for the entry

15     "they will winter in houses that were burned."

16        A.   I remember the entry, but, unfortunately, I didn't bring hard

17     copies with me.  But I can check also in my report.

18             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page in the English, please,

19     and one more time.  I'm sorry.

20             THE WITNESS:  I don't think I specifically mentioned the entry

21     about spending winter in burnt out houses in my report, unfortunately.

22             MR. WAESPI:  I think it I found it on page 359 in Mr. Theunens's

23     report:  "On 16th August 1995, General Gotovina, during the daily meeting

24     with his subordinate commanders ..."

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Waespi.

Page 12802

 1        Q.   It says, "the houses that are burning down.

 2             "They will stay during winter in the houses they are burning

 3     down."

 4             Now, given the context of what had transpired in the three days

 5     prior as to where the HV unit were engaged in combat, the reference there

 6     as to where these houses are, in terms of the burning, is in Bosnia.

 7     Correct?

 8        A.   I don't think -- I don't think that this entry allows to draw any

 9     conclusions on that aspect, because --

10        Q.   Well, let me tell you how I interpret it.

11             If he is talking about houses in the Republic of Croatia, these

12     units are not -- there is no front line in Croatia where they would have

13     to be barracked in houses somewhere in the territory the Republic of

14     Croatia on the 16th of August.  Correct?

15        A.   Again, I don't think we can draw such a conclusion, because it

16     may well be there is a lack of barracks or suitable barracks that have

17     been already been secured, in a sense that, even if the SVK have left

18     there, the barracks they occupied, there is a need to check whether these

19     barracks are safe, and then it is a whole logistical exercise to reoccupy

20     them.

21             I`m not in a position to say whether the existing barracks or

22     other buildings in the zone of the Split Military District on Croatian

23     territory were sufficient to house all the units of the Split Military

24     District.

25        Q.   Okay.  Well, then, is it safe to say you're not aware whether he

Page 12803

 1     is referring to burning going on in Bosnia or burning going on in

 2     Croatia, based on that answer?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, may I please have 1D63-0118, please.

 6        Q.   Let's talk a little bit about what was transpiring on the 18th of

 7     August.  This is a SIS report that I'm going to show you, dated 18

 8     August 1995.

 9             You can see at the -- in middle of the first page, it says:

10     "Pursuant to orders, the Operative Group West is comprised of the

11     following units," and it identifies them there.

12             MR. MISETIC:  If we turn the page, please.

13        Q.   In the middle of the page, it says:  "The following security

14     problem versus been observed in OG West.

15             Second bullet point paragraph there:  "According to the

16     operational information gathered so far, the situation is the worst in

17     the 134th Home Guard Regiment, and it can be observed in the following:

18     The line of command within the unit is not functioning, the commander

19     lacks the necessary authority to implement orders issued by OG West,

20     members of the unit are continuously destroying and burning residential

21     buildings within the area of responsibility."

22             Skipping a paragraph:  "Members of the SIS gave out warnings that

23     in the course of carrying out combat activities, the OG West was in

24     command, which resulted in the removal of," and then it is blacked out,

25     unit member, (currently carrying out the duty of assistant commander for

Page 12804

 1     SIS in the Benkovac garrison), and a reserve member of the SIS from the

 2     3rd Battalion of the 134th Home Guards by battalion commander Zeljko

 3     Usljebrk."

 4              Next bullet point:  "Upon arriving in the area of responsibility

 5     of OG West, we observed that the same was not secured by MP control

 6     check-points, which resulted in a large number of the members of the

 7     units within the AOR having personal vehicles and the previously

 8     mentioned incidents with the Belgian TV news team.

 9             "On the basis of our proposal dated 19 August 1995 at 0800 hours,

10     a military police check-point shall be set up on the Knin HV Gracac Srb

11     cross roads."

12             Now, on 18 August, information is given --

13             MR. MISETIC:  And, Your Honours, let me just clarify, and I think

14     it is clarified in Mr. Theunens's report, but the OG names were changed

15     after Operation Storm.

16        Q.   There is clearly a problem in the 134th Home Guard Regiment.  The

17     commander unable to carry out orders which you mentioned as one of the

18     problems as implementation of orders.

19             So let's take it through now what happened in the 134th.

20             MR. MISETIC:  If we go to P1143, please.

21             Mr. President, I ask that the exhibit be marked, and I tender it

22     into evidence.

23             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.  What is the date of this document.

24             MR. MISETIC:  18 August.  I believe the reference to the

25     check-point being set up on the 19th is saying that it "shall be,"

Page 12805

 1     meaning that this is a future event.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D984.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D984 is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. MISETIC:

 6        Q.   You have an order that you used in direct examination,

 7     Mr. Theunens, which General Ademi first orders that that check-point

 8     that's referenced in the SIS report be set up?

 9        A.   Mm-hm.

10        Q.   At point 1:  "That the check-point shall be put into operation on

11     19th of August.  Only motor vehicles with a regular vehicle log shoot are

12     to be allowed through, while the entry of civilian motor vehicles into

13     the zone is strictly forbidden.

14             "Allow war booty to be taken out only if there are proper lists

15     signed by the commanders of units."

16             MR. MISETIC:  Now, let's go to the next document, which is again

17     back to P71, please, English page 115 --  actually, Mr.  Registrar, I

18     apologise.  Let me show him a different document first.  My apologies.

19             Mr.  Registrar, if could I please have 65 ter 860, please.

20        Q.   Following this report of the commander of the 134th being unable

21     to implement orders and their problems, in addition to the military

22     police check-point, an order is issued again, signed for General

23     Gotovina:  "Have a commission carry out a check.  Enlist the war booty of

24     the 134th Home Guard Regiment.  For the implementation of this task, I am

25     assigning a commission made up of following members."

Page 12806

 1             The members of the commission are identified.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  The next page, please.

 3        Q.   "The basic task of the commission is to compare what was recorded

 4     on the ground with what was listed as war booty by the unit.

 5             "Submit a written report following completion of the task.  The

 6     deadline for implementation is immediately."

 7             Mr. Theunens, would you agree with me that on the basis of the

 8     information on the 18th, that a commission is formed then to conduct an

 9     inspection of the 134th to see whether the war booty they have physically

10     matches the war booty they have identified on their lists?

11        A.   Yes, that's what we can conclude from this two documents -- from

12     these documents.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this exhibit be marked,

14     and I tender it into evidence.

15             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit D985.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D985 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit D650,

20     please.

21        Q.   This is an order issued the next day by the commander of

22     Operative Group West:  "Due do to the observed break down of order and

23     discipline and for the international reputation for the Republic of

24     Croatia, I hereby order ..."

25             Then:  "Establish control in all units ... take measures against

Page 12807

 1     the torching of buildings and killing of animals ... take disciplinary

 2     and criminal measures against irresponsibility individuals.

 3             "The commanders of OG West units are responsible to me for the

 4     implementation of this order."

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Now, if we could scroll to the bottom please, of

 6     the Croatian, so I can see the signature, please.

 7        Q.   Again, it's Colonel Fuzul.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to Exhibit D884, please.

 9        Q.   It says -- and I will show you if necessary through a document

10     that is issued subsequent to this and pursuant to this order that this

11     order is issued on or about the 18th of August as well or the 19th of

12     August.

13             It says:  "Based on the oral order by the Deputy Commander of the

14     Split Military District, staff Brigadier Ademi, with the purpose of

15     improving the control and reinforcing the discipline in the Split

16     Military District units, all commanders of units in the zone of

17     responsibility of Operative Group West can according to their own

18     judgement dismiss part of the soldiers from their units, principally

19     dismiss individuals or groups who are behaving in a manner that causes

20     disturbance of discipline and order?

21        A.   Am I expected to --

22        Q.   I will give you a question after we've rune through the

23     documents.

24        A.   This is actually a key issue.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Make a little note what the key issue.  Let's wait

Page 12808

 1     until Mr. Misetic has finished.  And if you consider it in view of the

 2     question he will put to you still a key issue, include it in your answer.

 3     If you consider it a key issue outside his question, then please tell us

 4     at that time.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to Exhibit D885, please.

 7        Q.   There is now an order passed down to the commander of the 134th.

 8     It says:  "A part of the conscripts may be dismissed from the unit.

 9             "Primarily dismiss the individuals and groups who, with their

10     behaviour, disturb the order and discipline within the unit and, as such,

11     significantly impair the implementation of combat tasks."

12             Now, I'm sorry I'm rushing through this, but I would like to

13     finish this line of questioning before we end for the day.  I'd like to

14     show you a document that we will be referring to.  This is the result of

15     the inspection conducted by the Main Staff of the Split Military District

16     completed on the 30th of October, 1995.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, it is 65 ter 1335, please.

18             If we could first turn to page 5 in the English, please, which is

19     numbered page 3 in the Croatian.  So two pages back in the Croatian.

20     Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any possibility to show the English on the

22     screen as well?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it is possible that the English

24     translation hasn't been released in e-court.

25             MR. WAESPI:  I do have it in e-court if I open 65 ter.

Page 12809

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But to release it is a special activity needed

 2     to give it via the distribution.

 3             Perhaps we could use the time when waiting.

 4             Mr. Theunens, earlier you said there was a key issue.  If that

 5     key issue would be that dismissing active duty men rather than to

 6     investigate disciplinarily or in a criminal context, the Chamber is not

 7     unfamiliar and has heard quite some evidence on that issue, whether what

 8     would be the most appropriate way to react and whether it would be, as a

 9     matter of fact, a heavier penalty to send people home rather than to

10     investigate them and/or cut 10 percent of their salary, for example.

11             So the Chamber is not unfamiliar with that aspect, if that is

12     what was on your mind.  I'm not opening any discussion on it, just

13     filling in the time when we are still waiting for --

14             THE WITNESS:  There is just an additional aspect.  That is, that

15     my understanding of the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  I just wanted to let you know that at least

17     this is a matter the Chamber has some familiarity with and not to say

18     that in full detail.  And then I would like to -- even to Mr. Misetic,

19     but in later answering the question or further commenting, you have at

20     least some information.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I propose that we show

22     the English translation via Sanction for now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's look at it through Sanction.

24             MR. MISETIC:

25        Q.   Mr. Theunens, one of the findings is, if you look at "planned

Page 12810

 1     inspections."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if is now on -- yeah, okay.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.    "Planned inspections and controls have not been fully

 6     established in the liberated areas yet but considerable progress has been

 7     achieved in the prevention of theft, destruction of houses and similar,

 8     which should continue to be considered a priority and permanent task."

 9             And then if I could call your attention specifically to what

10     happened to the 134th.

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 37, please, to the bottom.

12        Q.   In reporting on the inspection of the 134th:  "By the order of

13     the defence minister based on the proposal submitted by the operative

14     group and the order of the Split Military District, the approved

15     numerical strength of the regiment was 581 soldiers.  After the

16     demobilization, the number fell to 579.  The regiment's structure was

17     adapted accordingly.

18             "According to the commander's order, there were -- the regiment

19     sent 392 members on leave.  The 187 members who remain in the units are

20     engaged on the clearing of warehouses and facilities, sorting the war

21     booty, carrying out the engineering inspections ..."

22             Next paragraph is:  "The regiment command is not brought up to

23     establishment in accordance with the establishment plans ..."

24             Now this regiment typically has how many people?

25        A.   I think the earlier entry said something like -- if we go to the

Page 12811

 1     bottom of page 37.  Stop.  The numerical -- or the approved numerical

 2     strength was 581, according to this document.

 3        Q.   But how much was it at the time of Operation Storm?

 4        A.   I would have to look in my report.  I don't know by heart, but I

 5     have a document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from having a document, I would say that

 7     you've got 72 hours to look at the documents.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             THE WITNESS:  I should be faster.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is even 72 and a half hour because we'll

11     adjourn for the day.

12             MR. MISETIC:  May I at least have this exhibit marked and tender

13     it into evidence, Mr. President.

14             MR. WAESPI:  It is a fairly long, but I have no objections.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If is fairly long.  If a further redaction of the

16     size -- I'm not saying that it can be achieved but would you at least

17     consider it, Mr. Misetic.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Without of course loosing context.

20             Mr. Theunens, I'd like to instruct you as I did all these days,

21     that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony, whether given

22     already or still to be given.  We'd like to see you back Monday, in the

23     afternoon.

24             We adjourn, and we resume at Monday, the 1st of December, quarter

25     part 2.00 in the afternoon, in this same courtroom I.

Page 12812

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day

 3                           of December 2008 at 2.15 p.m.