Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13841

 1                           Wednesday, 17 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Good morning to you as well, Mr. Al-Alfi.

12                           WITNESS:  HUSSEIN AL-ALFI [Resumed]

13             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, sir.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to deal with a minor procedural issue, if you

15     would apologise us.

16             The Chamber is informed, Mr. Kuzmanovic, that Mr. Markac, for

17     reasons known to the Chamber by now, will waive his right to be present

18     tomorrow.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour, and hopefully it

20     won't take the full time; but if necessary, he will try to be here before

21     the end of the day.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the Chamber, of course, is considering

23     the Court schedule of this week, and sees that there's a risk that the

24     next witness might be endangered to the extent that we might not finish

25     and therefor is exploring, at this moment, the possibility to sit on

Page 13842

 1     Thursday afternoon.  And if need be, that for that purpose, the Chamber

 2     would like to be more fully informed about the times needed for the next

 3     witness, next witness scheduled for two hours in chief.  Mr. Hedaraly.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  That is correct, Your Honour.  Although my

 5     understanding is that the examination will last probably closer to an

 6     hour and a half than two hours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, of course the Chamber has no indication

 8     yet as to how much time the next witness would take and it depends on

 9     that information what further to explore.  So the Chamber would like to

10     receive further information and at this moment is working on Thursday

11     afternoon and, again, if need be, Friday afternoon as well.  Especially

12     Friday afternoon, I can imagine that that causes problems.

13             If there are any problems as far as Defence teams are concerned,

14     of course the Chamber would like to know as well.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, as far as we're concerned with the

16     following witness, we don't anticipate -- we've given a time estimate

17     already of no more than roughly an hour for us.

18             MR. KAY:  With the next witness, Your Honour, I did warn the

19     Prosecution last week, and I said we did not want to be under pressure

20     with witnesses being called last minute and we're unable properly to deal

21     with our cases.

22             What happens here is a large number of documents come in,

23     sometimes four our five times a day, revised schedules, revised lists,

24     and somehow we have to try and track this and see whether a witness is

25     going to be used in a particular way or not, what documents are actually

Page 13843

 1     being used.  This witness went from viva voce to 92 ter, and it causes

 2     great difficulty in trying to administer properly and assemble our

 3     materials in what is essentially a documents case to a large extent.

 4             To be frank, for the next witness I haven't really had a chance

 5     to read -- I know he has made a third statement in November of this year,

 6     and I have been briefed about that, but I haven't had a chance to read it

 7     and catch up myself with the developments with this witness from his

 8     first two statements and I have been told things have suddenly changed.

 9     And being put under pressure in those circumstances to make decisions on

10     how properly to deal with it, in our submission, is unfair to us because

11     we've come a long way in a very short period of having had preparations

12     for trial on this case, and some of these witnesses I am reading for the

13     first time in the week before they're called or a few days before they're

14     called and having to make preparations accordingly.

15             So, in my submission, having warned the Prosecution about this

16     last week that there would be a difficulty with that witness, I

17     appreciate then that he was a viva voce witness, but I did warn them that

18     there would be a number of issues that had to be covered.  I'm concerned

19     if we are unable to properly prepare and develop our defences with the

20     witnesses whose evidence is changing by the month.  This --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber is not following closely these

22     developments.  If it reaches a point where you say, We can't do it, then

23     of course you have to address the Chamber on the matter, as you did now,

24     but in rather general terms.

25             So as soon as have you made the progress needed to give us an

Page 13844

 1     indication, then we'd like to hear from you.  I mean, just the

 2     information that you warned the Prosecution and that it is problematic,

 3     of course, is -- it's good for to us know.  At the same time doesn't give

 4     a lot of assistance in scheduling for the rest of the week.

 5             MR. KAY:  To be frank, I still haven't caught up with the third

 6     statement that's been a recent development and I'm told changes what he

 7     said previously, and I'll have to turn my attention to that this

 8     afternoon.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then we'd like to hear from you as soon

10     as possible.

11             MR. KAY:  I will advise you.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, it's the same here with respect to

13     the next witness.  The statement came in yesterday late and I haven't

14     even had a chance to look at yet, so I'm in the same position.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it would not come as a surprise, Mr. Kehoe, if

16     you find yourself in similar difficulties.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, and I might add just one other

18     matter.  Yesterday was the first time we got the exhibit list for the

19     next witness.  There had been no notification with regard to those

20     exhibits, so I don't want to echo what my learned friends have said but I

21     just wanted to add that further point.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The information of a rather general nature and

23     not yet finalized, the Chamber will continue to explore possibilities to

24     find more time this week as you will understand.  That being said, I

25     think we can continue -- yes, Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 13845

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  There's just one thing on the record that I want

 2     to correct.  The statement was not given yesterday for the first time.

 3     It was disclosed in November when it was taken.  As Mr. Kehoe said,

 4     yesterday it was the exhibit list that was sent.  I just want to make the

 5     record clear on that.  The statement was disclosed --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  -- as soon as we received it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  That is on the record now as well.

 9             Mr. Al-Alfi, this might not be very -- of great interest to you.

10     What I'd like to hear you from and I'm also addressing the parties.  I

11     was informed that upon my instruction where I had failed to instruct you

12     not to speak with anyone about your testimony, whether already given or

13     still to be given, that this instruction was given to you orally

14     immediately after yesterday's session.  Is that correct?

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  Your colleague gave it to me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that.  Then I would like to

17     remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at

18     the beginning of the testimony that you will speak the truth, whole truth

19     and nothing but the truth.

20             Mr. Kay, are you ready to continue your examination --

21     cross-examination?

22             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay: [Continued]

24        Q.    Mr. Al-Alfi, the next document I wanted to look was in tab 4 of

25     your bundle and it is dated the 10th of August, 1995.  And it again is a

Page 13846

 1     record of a meeting with General Cermak.

 2             MR. KAY:  This is 65 ter 6152, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   If you would be looking at that in tab 4, Mr. Al-Alfi, while it

 4     is coming up on the screen because I'm going to ask you a general

 5     question which follows on from those questions I asked you yesterday.

 6        A.   Hold on for a minute, please.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   Did you say on the 8th of August?

 9        Q.   10th of August.

10        A.   10th of August.  Yes --

11        Q.   Tab 4.

12        A.   -- I've got it.  I got it.

13        Q.   And we can see in paragraph 2 there had been a meeting with

14     Mr. Pitkanen and General Cermak.  On page 2, a list of the matters dealt

15     with is set out.

16             You can take it from me, Mr. Al-Alfi, that in fact, again, at

17     this meeting there was no discussions of the crimes, looting, burning, or

18     killings.  It was specific issues concerning the UNCRO camp, displaced

19     persons and interviewing detainees there and people in Croatian custody.

20             So no discussion there of lootings, burnings and crimes, between

21     you and General Cermak.  You can check if you want, but I can tell you

22     that's the fact.

23        A.   This report is reflecting a meeting which is a follow-up of the

24     SRSG's meeting in Knin --

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 13847

 1        A.   -- and the agreement with the Croatian government.  So it was

 2     specific for a follow-up of other issues, not necessarily reflecting the

 3     overall situation in the sector.

 4        Q.   I totally agree.  Thank you.

 5             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's on your list, Mr. Hedaraly.  I am aware

 7     of that.  It's the one document which was not yet on the 65 ter list, but

 8     there were no objections adding it.  But I think we adopted, more or

 9     less, the practice that if it has not yet been assigned a P number,

10     because the list is not there yet and is not yet processed by the

11     registrar, that you strike it from the list and that we now decide on

12     admission as a D exhibit.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Whatever is convenient for the Chamber,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that's the -- more or less the

16     practice we adopted.

17             Madam Registrar --

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- 6152 would be?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  -- that would be Exhibit D1209.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D1209 is admitted into evidence.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   The next document at tab 5 is the 11th of August.  Again, without

25     going into the detail because it would take a lot of time, Mr. Al-Alfi,

Page 13848

 1     and you're able to flick through.  Again, this is a meeting, again, about

 2     specific issues of restriction of movement, interviewing of people in the

 3     camp.

 4             At page 3 of the document, there is references there to -- as we

 5     can see on lines 3 and 4, to burning of houses, crops, killing of

 6     animals, destruction and looting, as being something that was happening,

 7     but it is --

 8             MR. KAY:  Sorry, I haven't called up the 65 ter.  I'm sorry,

 9     Your Honour, I have been sidelined.  65 ter 5058 [sic].  My apologies.

10     4058.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So it appears on your list as unstricken as well, if

12     Mr. Kay tenders it, Mr. Hedaraly.

13             MR. KAY:

14        Q.   Again this document has reference to a meeting with

15     General Cermak.  But the point is that at the meeting with

16     General Cermak, that issue was not being discussed with him by you.  Your

17     meeting with him was about specific issues concerning the displaced

18     persons within the camp, Mr. Al-Alfi, and your report and discussing with

19     Mr. Cermak about people being in custody in the area.  It's not

20     discussing with him lootings, burnings and crimes.

21        A.   Certainly when we go after the agreement, there is a follow-up of

22     specific topics.  And at that time, the main concern of the Croatian

23     authorities was those people inside our camp.  So when you go to any

24     meeting, that definitely will not repeat everything.  You will be going

25     for a specific purpose, and for that reason, it was only specifically

Page 13849

 1     about the details on how the investigation or interviewing of those

 2     people inside the camp will be.  But as you rightly mentioned, I was, at

 3     the same time, reflecting what was the situation.  That's the same page

 4     you have referred to.

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   Thank you.

 7        Q.   My concern is General Cermak and what was said to him, and that's

 8     what I'm examining with you because that's the importance, as he is on

 9     trial, to have a look at what was said to him by you and when.

10             If we could admit that document into evidence, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D1210.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D1210 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. KAY:

15        Q.   And just so as to keep an order within this bundle at this stage,

16     if we could go to the document that is tab 6 in your file, Mr. Al-Alfi.

17     It is 65 ter 4757, and it's dated the 12th of August, 1995.  And it

18     concerns various meetings that were held on that day with various people

19     in the area.

20             At this time, the first thing we're going to look at concerns a

21     meeting with Mr. Pasic, described as the newly appointed mayor of Knin.

22     And you were searching for a name yesterday; do you recollect?  And that

23     is the name Pasic?

24        A.   So long as it is in my report, that's the name.

25        Q.   Yes.  And perhaps that refreshes your memory now.

Page 13850

 1        A.   That's it.

 2        Q.   Yes.  A couple of points here.  He's described as the mayor of

 3     Knin.  Did you in fact know that that was not his job and his title?

 4        A.   That's how he introduced himself to us.

 5        Q.   He was something known as the government's commissioner for Knin.

 6     Was that a phrase that you heard?

 7        A.   Through his own interpreter, I heard the word "mayor."

 8        Q.   He had been appointed as the government's commissioner in 1993,

 9     under the laws of the Republic of Croatia.

10        A.   That might be true, but the way he -- I heard it from his own

11     interpreter was mayor.

12        Q.   Did you appreciate that there was no such position within

13     Croatian society as the mayor of a town?

14        A.   I did not know that.

15        Q.   Have them in other societies as we know, and it's a phrase in

16     common use, as you would agree?

17        A.   I worked in other sectors, and the word "mayor" was used.

18        Q.   In relation to how he was described as the newly appointed mayor

19     of Knin, I'm interested in this translation issue and how information was

20     being passed to you because you said he had an interpreter.  Didn't you

21     use interpreters as well?  Didn't you bring interpreters to meetings?

22        A.   I said yesterday that we did not have interpreters.

23        Q.   You didn't bring anyone from the camp to interpret at meetings

24     for you?

25        A.   We did not have any local interpreter at all.

Page 13851

 1        Q.   So do you know who was being used then as an interpreter for

 2     Mr. Pasic, what this person was?

 3        A.   I did not know him.  I came to the meeting, and I saw this man,

 4     and he was the interpreter.

 5        Q.   Right.  The command of the language, were you able to appreciate

 6     that, whether he had a good or poor command of the English language?

 7        A.   How would I be able to judge it when I don't know the language

 8     myself?

 9        Q.   I must correct something.  I'm told mayors did exist in Croatia,

10     and that would be the case at that time.  But he was the government's

11     commissioner, not a mayor?

12        A.   Well, that's your information, but my information -- he was

13     introduced to me through the interpreter as mayor.

14        Q.   Right.  This was the first time that you'd met him?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   Did you know what his jobs and responsibilities were, aside from

17     his title?  So let's forget the title, what his actual jobs and

18     responsibilities were?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did you know about the resources available to him, whether he had

21     staff or an office?

22        A.   I knew that he an office in Knin, but other than that, I don't

23     know.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, would you allow me to just go back one of

25     the previous questions for one second.

Page 13852

 1             Mr. Al-Alfi, you said how could you judge upon the command of the

 2     English knowledge by this interpreter.  You will certainly, with your

 3     background, have the experience that you would easily, or less easily,

 4     communicate with other persons in the English language.  I mean, we see

 5     here in court, we hear in court that you have no great difficulties in

 6     expressing yourself in the English language, so I would, although not

 7     being a native English-speaking person, I would allow myself to give a

 8     judgement - don't worry, a positive judgement - about your command of the

 9     English language.

10             You'll certainly be able to tell us whether had you any

11     difficulties in communicating with this interpreter in the English

12     language.

13             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I was referring to the

14     Serbo-Croat language here.  I didn't have any command, but through the

15     interpreter I heard him saying mayor.  I understood him, but I had no

16     problem in English.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So your communication with him in English,

18     whether he was translating or not what was said in --

19             THE WITNESS:  That's exactly --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in the language of Mr. Cermak, but you had no

21     difficulties in communicating in the English language.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's true.  I did not have any difficulty in

23     understanding him in English.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             THE WITNESS:  But what was the title that was told to him or what

Page 13853

 1     was told to him, I did not have any command in the Serbo-Croat language.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm not just focussing on that title; I'm

 3     focussing on the conversation in its entirety.  So you had no

 4     difficulties in communicating in English.  And do you remember whether he

 5     was a native Croatian person, either by -- or let's say, was he from the

 6     former Yugoslavia, that interpreter?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, sir.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  He was.  Thank you.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

10             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   I'm just going back to Mr. Pasic.  Had you appreciated the task

12     that he had to face in coming into an area where the state had had no

13     government at all, since the creation of that state in 1991?

14        A.   That's only a judgement.  I'm not to pass a judgement here.  But

15     I understand that he was there for the first time, that's correct.  I

16     mean, after the fall of Knin.

17        Q.   Just going back on to the interpreters again, wasn't there a

18     system that when there was a meeting arranged between the United Nations

19     and any representatives of the Croatian government or institutions, that

20     the UN would send an interpreter for those meetings?

21        A.   Sir, you know that this area has -- what witnessed what it

22     witnessed.  So even if we had interpreters they would have been locals.

23     They would have ran away.  So there was no one.  We were there without

24     any local interpreter.

25        Q.   We've heard evidence in this court, you see, and it's right I

Page 13854

 1     point this out to you, that there were interpreters used who were in fact

 2     in the camp and they worked on a daily basis for the UNCIVPOL or

 3     General Forand or anyone who was having meetings with the Croatian

 4     institutions.

 5        A.   Well, if there were any, then they did not work for my office.

 6        Q.   Could it have been the case that someone was sent along to the

 7     meeting from the UN and that you didn't appreciate that they were from

 8     the UN?

 9        A.   What do you mean by that?

10        Q.   Well, put it this way.  It's more likely that the UN would have

11     sent interpreters along, rather than the Croatian institutions sending

12     interpreters along for meetings at that time.

13        A.   If I had an interpreter, I would have taken him or her with me,

14     definitely, because that would be an UN interpreter.

15        Q.   There it is.  There it is.

16             But looking at Mr. Pasic, did you appreciate that whatever his

17     job title was that he was coming into a place where he didn't have a

18     large number of running offices and institutions working on his behalf,

19     because for the first time the Croatian state was coming into this part

20     of its territory where it had never had its control and authority and its

21     institutions before.  This was -- this was a first in this region.  Did

22     you appreciate that?

23        A.   I would say that was true.

24        Q.   Because you discuss whether he was effective, and you believed he

25     was ineffective, but did you sufficiently appreciate problems that he

Page 13855

 1     would have been facing in providing civil institutions to enable things

 2     to run at that time in Knin?

 3        A.   He did not discuss these problems with me.

 4        Q.   That wasn't the question, whether he discussed.  I'm looking at

 5     your mind, if you forgive me, and whether you appreciated, whether you

 6     appreciated, whether -- because have you made a judgement about him, that

 7     he was ineffective, so I'm asking whether you appreciated -- whether he

 8     discussed it or not is another matter.  Whether you appreciated.

 9        A.   How would I appreciate it if he did not discuss it with me?

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Al-Alfi, sometimes I can see persons having

12     problems, where they do not express these problems to me but from other

13     circumstances I feel or I see that they have these problems.

14             Now, the question apparently Mr. Kay is putting to you is whether

15     in any way, whether he told you or not you appreciated the difficulties

16     he was facing.

17             THE WITNESS:  Sir, the word appreciate that means I fully

18     understand him.  That's my --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then did --

20             THE WITNESS:  -- that's why.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- did you form an opinion on the basis of what you

22     saw and heard, whether or not directly from Mr. Cermak, what kind of

23     problems he was facing in performing his tasks.

24             THE WITNESS:  Of course I understood that it was only a few days,

25     and I realized that not everything will be in place.

Page 13856

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I think you mentioned Mr. Cermak but the

 4     question was related to Mr. Pasic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Mr. Pasic.  I apologise, yes.  With this

 6     correction, the same -- you gained the same impression as far as

 7     Mr. Pasic is concerned.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I apologise for the slip of the tongue.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

11             MR. KAY:  Not at all, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Again, at this meeting with Mr. Pasic, did you discuss in any

13     sort of detail with him as to what the Croatian authorities were trying

14     to achieve at this time in relation to the civilian institutions in the

15     area?

16        A.   No, sir.

17        Q.   Okay.  Were you aware that on the 6th of August of 1995 that the

18     minister of interior had been to Knin and opened for the first time the

19     police station in Knin?

20        A.   Did you say the 6th of August?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   At that time, we were in the camp, sir.  We were not allowed to

23     leave.

24        Q.   Again, it was, did you know.  Not where you were, but did you

25     know, because maybe you are somewhere else but you receive information.

Page 13857

 1     You put other people's information in your reports, after all.  It's did

 2     you know that, that on the 6th of August, for the first time, the police

 3     station opened in Knin?

 4        A.   I did not know.

 5        Q.   And that in the following two weeks further police stations

 6     opened up in the region of Knin, places like Benkovac, Donji Lapac, other

 7     places.  Did you appreciate -- were you aware of that at that time?

 8        A.   If anyone would be aware it would be the UNCIVPOL, not me.

 9        Q.   Were you aware that the civilian police were bringing in

10     policemen to man those police stations as they opened up in the area?

11        A.   As I said, if anyone would be aware, it would be the UNCIVPOL.

12     Not me.  I'm carrying the civilian, humanitarian and political side.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Again, at this meeting -- in this report, you

14     referred to a meeting with General Cermak - that's on page 3 of the

15     document, paragraph 3 - I just want to put this.  Again, you're not

16     discussing looting, burnings and crimes with him.  You're discussing

17     other matters concerning you at that time, normalization of civilian life

18     and, again, the displaced persons in the UN camp.  Isn't that right?

19        A.   If you notice that in this meeting I accompanied the Sector

20     Commander, and the Sector Commander was having specific issues to discuss

21     with General Cermak, and I said throughout my testimony that in many of

22     the instances, I accompanied the Sector Commander to meet General Cermak.

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   That's why I did not raise any other issues here.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 13858

 1        A.   It was specific for a specific purpose.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.

 3             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, if this document could be made an exhibit,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D1211.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D1211 is admitted into evidence.  It appears on your

 8     list, Mr. Hedaraly, therefore, I did not ask for any objections.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

11             The next document that I wish to produce -- excuse me,

12     Your Honour.  Exhibit D56, please.

13        Q.   This is a meeting on the 18th of August, Mr. Al-Alfi, and a

14     report --

15        A.   Can you tell me which folder it is.

16        Q.   This isn't actually in your folder.  It's a court exhibit

17     already.

18        A.   I see.

19        Q.   In that folder you have some of your documents.  Many more have

20     gone into evidence beforehand.  But if you look at the screen in front of

21     you, you will see there our Exhibit D56, and it is a document of the

22     18th of August.  Again, there a reference to a meeting with Mr. Pasic,

23     and he is described there, and there's discussion of that meeting, and we

24     can see at b, the mayor explaining the shortcomings in tackling civilian

25     problems due to unpreparedness.

Page 13859

 1             If we go to, as if we have no need to look further at that - the

 2     Court have already - to page 3 is the reference to a meeting with

 3     General Cermak --

 4        A.   I don't see it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It will come on your screen, Mr. Al-Alfi.  It takes

 6     a while to get page 3.

 7             MR. KAY:

 8        Q.   In paragraph 2 we can see the reference to the meeting there, the

 9     initial discussion about the displaced persons.  And then in the second

10     paragraph:

11             "During the meeting, I also brought to the attention of

12     General Cermak our concern about the continuing reports of houses and

13     farms set on fire in the villages and looting, and asked him about the

14     measures taken from his side to stop such acts.  General Cermak shared

15     this concern with us and expressed his unhappiness about its

16     continuation.  He promised tough action against those who commit such

17     acts.  He also explained that some of these acts must be carried out by

18     civilians who return to the area and seek revenge, taking advantage of

19     the lifting of the restrictions on their movement in the area."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, you read "must be carried out" where the

21     text reads "may be carried out."

22             MR. KAY:  Yes.  I'm sorry.  Yeah.  May be -- explained that some

23     of these acts may be carried out.  My apologies.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. KAY:

Page 13860

 1        Q.   This is the first instance at your meetings of you raising the

 2     issues of crimes with him, on this date?

 3        A.   On this date?  Yes, I raised it with him.

 4        Q.   18th of August, yes.

 5        A.   But not the first.  But I raised it with him.

 6        Q.   Yes.  This is the first time you -- you said to General Cermak

 7     and raised with him about crimes.  You may have spoken to other people,

 8     and crimes were happening, but this is the first time you discussed it

 9     with him.  Isn't that right?

10        A.   Sir, if you refer to the same paragraph, at the beginning of it

11     you can see because of the occasion --

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   -- I was also accompanied by the Human Rights Action Team.  So

14     that is the occasion to raise these things.

15        Q.   Absolutely.  We're on agreement on this, as to what it is, but

16     the question of you bringing it to his attention is an issue in the case,

17     all right?  And this is when you did, and we can see here what you

18     reported him as saying, that he shared his concern, he was unhappy, and

19     he promised tough action against those who commit such acts.

20        A.   What is in there, I stand by it.

21        Q.   Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, may I nevertheless seek clarification.

23             Earlier, and I don't know whether I fully understood you, Mr. Kay

24     asked you whether this was the first time you raised this issue with

25     Mr. Cermak on this date, which means that you had not raised it at an

Page 13861

 1     earlier date with him.  Is that your testimony?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I said in my response to Mr. Kay that this was

 3     not the first time, but this was the first time that was specifically for

 4     this purpose, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I felt some ambiguity so therefore I sought

 6     this clarification.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I take it that you will then further

 9     explore the earlier occasion.

10             MR. KAY:

11        Q.   We have been through all your reports and this is the first time

12     of your reports that you mention bringing to General Cermak's attention

13     the issue of crimes.  In your other meetings, you brought up the

14     displaced persons, the issue over interviewing people in the camps,

15     freedom of movement, other issues with which you were concerned, as part

16     of your humanitarian brief.

17             The first report by you of bringing -- of saying to him about

18     crimes is here on the 18th of August.

19        A.   If it was by me, as I said earlier, the meetings with

20     General Cermak -- because it is now military dealing with military, it

21     was General Forand dealing with General Cermak.  If I had the occasion at

22     this time, because it was the Human Rights Action Team, maybe I did not

23     in details discuss it with General Cermak in previous meetings because

24     that was not the occasion for that purpose.  But this is not the first

25     time I raise it with General Cermak.  It was even earlier.

Page 13862

 1        Q.   General Forand's reports are in evidence, but I'm talking about

 2     you.  You were questioned by Mr. Russo yesterday, and he made a summary

 3     of your evidence to the Court and a statement about your evidence, and

 4     what I'm saying is, this was the first time that you, as an individual,

 5     raised it with General Cermak about crimes being committed.

 6        A.   It's not the first time, sir.

 7        Q.   Why --

 8        A.   Maybe the first time I reported it, reflected it clearly here,

 9     but it's not the first time I raised it.

10        Q.   Why is it not in any earlier report, if you did so?

11        A.   Because the other reports are talking about specific issues, as I

12     pointed out.

13        Q.   We have other reports from you.  They're all in evidence.  And

14     they deal with a wide variety of matters, general matters, specific

15     matters, such as displaced persons, interviewing detainees at the camp.

16     This, concerning crimes, is a specific matter as well, isn't it?

17        A.   It is true.  But don't forget that by then the Human Rights

18     Action Teams arrived in sector, and by then, already now we started to

19     have specific issues to discuss on this action.  Or in this area.

20        Q.   And that is why, on this occasion, this was the first time you

21     discussed it.

22        A.   Maybe more details, yes.

23        Q.   Let me take it further this way.  General Cermak was not denying

24     those crimes were taking place, was he?

25        A.   No, he was not.

Page 13863

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, we have now dealt with the meeting which is

 2     reported in this document, and Mr. Al-Alfi told us that he had raised the

 3     matter earlier.  If you ask him from this report we see that he

 4     apparently is not denying that such crimes may have happened, but your

 5     question did not focus on this report or any of the earlier meetings

 6     where the matter, although not reported, was raised.

 7             And I would seek clarification from Mr. Al-Alfi whether at any

 8     earlier occasion when you raised the issue of crimes although we do not

 9     find it in the reports, whether he, at those earlier occasions, ever

10     denied crimes to be committed.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, and if I recall correctly you will see

12     even in one of my earlier reports whenever I went and talked to him about

13     looting and all that, including my asking him whether about my own house

14     was safe and he gave me the advice that you better go and take your

15     things from your house.  That means he was aware of what was going on in

16     the area.  I discussed it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So at no instance he denied that this may have

18     happened.

19             THE WITNESS:  No, at all.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

21             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Did you believe he was in a position to deal with your reports

23     about what you were saying?  Did you believe he had the power and

24     authority to deal with it by commands or orders?

25        A.   I would not pass a judgement, but so long we were informed

Page 13864

 1     formally that he is the first man in the sector, then I would believe so.

 2        Q.   You said that there had been an official notification to the UN

 3     of his position.  You said that yesterday.

 4        A.   That's true.  To Zagreb, to our headquarters in Zagreb.

 5        Q.   Now what document was that notification?

 6        A.   I don't know about it, but my headquarters informed me that he is

 7     appointed officially by the government of Croatia.

 8        Q.   Your headquarters informed you?

 9        A.   That's true, sir.

10        Q.   And he was appointed officially by the government of Croatia, but

11     as what?

12        A.   I don't know the exact title, but he was the military governor or

13     something like that.

14        Q.   Did you know if Croatia had such an institution as military

15     governor?

16        A.   I don't know.  I'm not supposed to ask all these details.  All I

17     know, who is the person with whom I would deal in the sector.

18        Q.   Yeah.  Did you know he was appointed by the president as the

19     Zborno Mjesto of Knin?

20        A.   I am not aware of this terminology, sir.

21        Q.   The commander of the Knin garrison?

22        A.   Might be true, but that's the first time I hear it.  But I knew

23     that he was the first man.

24        Q.   Did you know exactly what his authority was?

25        A.   I did not know exactly, but so long we were informed officially

Page 13865

 1     that, Anything, you deal with him, that means he had the overall

 2     authority or the top authority in this area.

 3        Q.   Does it?  If you've got anything, you deal with him.  Does that

 4     mean you've got total authority in the area?

 5        A.   Can you explain exactly what's your question.

 6        Q.   Well, if I say to you, Deal here with Mr. Mak, does that mean he

 7     has the total authority in the Defence case for Mr. Cermak?

 8        A.   If the government of Croatia tells me that he is the man

 9     representing the government, the top official, then I have to take it as

10     it is.

11        Q.   But the government of the Croatia didn't tell you that.

12        A.   Not me.  I mean tells our headquarters and headquarters informs

13     us.  That's what I mean by me.

14        Q.   You don't actually know what the government of Croatia told your

15     headquarters.  You don't know what the government of Croatia told your

16     headquarters?

17        A.   That was conveyed to me by my headquarters, sir.

18        Q.   But you know what they were told?

19        A.   What exactly, I don't know.

20        Q.   So it would be safe to say it was an assumption you came to.

21        A.   No, it's not an assumption.  It is an information I received.

22        Q.   Okay.  Did you know that General Cermak had just nine people

23     working for him in the Knin garrison?

24        A.   I'm not -- I was not allowed to question how many people he had

25     to work for him at all.  Exactly he did not ask me how many people are

Page 13866

 1     working for me.

 2        Q.   No.  But did you know; that was the question.

 3        A.   I did not know how many.

 4        Q.   Did you know that he couldn't command units within the

 5     Croatian army?

 6        A.   That's not my judgement.

 7        Q.   But did you know?  If that is a fact, did you know that?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Kay, your question was what he could, and

 9     that is partially a matter of fact and partially a matter of judgement.

10     To that extent, I think Mr. Al-Alfi responded to part of your question.

11             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Did you know he couldn't order troops to clean up the town for

13     him?

14        A.   I did not know that.

15        Q.   Did you know that although he gave orders for stolen UNCRO

16     vehicles to be returned, he couldn't order the troops, the units in the

17     Croatian army, to go and look for them?

18        A.   He did not tell me that.

19        Q.   Did you, as you had more dealings with Mr. Cermak, begin to get

20     doubts about the extent of his authority?

21        A.   I had no doubt about his authority.  Question was how far he can

22     implement it.  And then later on when he disappeared from the sector

23     without any announcement, I started to question that.

24        Q.   Did you know that he had just been appointed to his post on the

25     5th of August, and until that appointment, he had been in civilian life?

Page 13867

 1        A.   The first encounter I knew General Cermak was in the sector.  I

 2     did not know before that what he was.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In your meetings with General Cermak, you next

 4     brought to his attention crimes that were taking place on the 24th of

 5     August, 1995.  That's not in your bundle, Mr. Al-Alfi.

 6             MR. KAY:  It's at Exhibit D151.  And page 2, in paragraph 5 is

 7     the reference to this matter.

 8        Q.   The other parts of the meeting dealing with the other issues that

 9     we've already referred to.  And, again, we can see the note made here of

10     him accepting the fact of the crimes being committed, burning houses and

11     looting.  And he informed you that he had already issued strict orders to

12     civilian and military personnel to stop such acts.

13             Did you appreciate, or were you aware, that he had to refer those

14     matters to others and ask them to issue orders to stop crimes or to

15     enforce the law?

16        A.   If you read my report correctly, this confirms that he had the

17     authority, because he issued -- he said that he issued these orders to

18     others.

19        Q.   And that's what we're going to just look at.

20        A.   Mm-hm.

21        Q.   You're basing it upon what he said to you --

22        A.   That's true.

23        Q.   Rather than what he could actually do.

24        A.   That's what he said.

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 13868

 1        A.   That's true.

 2        Q.   Without knowing whether, despite what he said, he could only

 3     refer these matters to others to get them to enforce such orders.

 4        A.   I take it as he said it, but if there are other internal

 5     procedures within his authority, that's not my business to ask him about

 6     the details.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just going to go through a number of matters

 8     concerning General Cermak at this time.

 9             You told us already you were unaware of the resources available

10     to him, as to what he had at his disposal, his office, the staff working

11     for him.  Isn't that right?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   Yeah.  You had no knowledge of how the Croatian military

14     structure was organised.  Would that be right?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   How the command and control of those parts of the military

17     structure worked.

18        A.   That's for our military, not for me as civilian side.

19        Q.   In your recorded interview, you assumed he had the power to give

20     orders to units.  Isn't that right?

21        A.   That's true.  Because being the first man, the governor of the

22     area, or whatever name, title it has, otherwise, what would be -- is it a

23     nominal head?  That was -- that was my assumption, based on.

24        Q.   You never appreciated, did you, that he was sent down to Knin

25     with one of his tasks being to help the UN, as a specific job, to be a

Page 13869

 1     point of contact and help with whatever problems you had?

 2        A.   He was sent to Knin with a different capacity.  But because of

 3     being in Knin, then it was agreed with the UN that he -- we should -- he

 4     should be our contact.

 5        Q.   So do you know whether or not before he got to Knin, whether he

 6     had been sent there specifically to deal with the UN as one of his jobs?

 7        A.   I was not informed about that.

 8        Q.   No.  That he was a point of contact for the UN and was sent there

 9     to help you.

10        A.   Can you rephrase your question, please?

11        Q.   Sure.  Were you aware that he was sent there as a point of

12     contact to help you?

13        A.   No.  I dealt with him as the governor of the area.

14             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  The question had been asked and answered

17     previously.

18             MR. KAY:  Sorry if it has but ... excuse me.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's -- it wasn't the first time that the

20     same or similar question was put to the witness more than once.  Mr. Kay,

21     also in view of the time, if you have heard the answer once or twice or

22     three times, then there's no need to put it again to the witness.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. KAY:  Yes, probably lost more time now.

25        Q.   You --

Page 13870

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a comment.  Mr. Hedaraly raises an issue and

 2     there is some merit in it, and then you should refrain from such comment.

 3             MR. KAY:  I'm sorry --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. KAY:  -- and I extend my apologies to him, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Were you aware that the other task he was sent down to Knin to

 7     perform was the normalization of life in that town, to get the town

 8     running?

 9        A.   I'm not aware, but that's what I expected.

10        Q.   That he was sent there not with military tasks to perform.  Were

11     you aware of that?

12        A.   I'm not aware of that.  But how would he, under military rule,

13     control an area if he is not -- has -- if he had no military task?

14        Q.   And was there military rule?  Was there a law that it was

15     military rule?

16        A.   I'm not aware of it, but that's what I expect under those

17     circumstances at that time.

18        Q.   Were you aware that he was sent to Knin at that time to help try

19     and get businesses working, shops open, and services running?

20        A.   That may be the case, but I'm aware of one thing:  That he was

21     amongst the first immediately in Knin.  So it's a military situation, how

22     would I expect to talk about businesses unless this military situation

23     first is stabilized.  So you can see that it was with the military

24     offensive.  What was the details of his task, I'm not aware of it.

25        Q.   Were you aware that the Ministry of Interior of the Croatian

Page 13871

 1     state was issuing orders for the running of the police, what they were to

 2     do, how they were to be manned, and the whole structure of the civil and

 3     police government?

 4        A.   If that was the case, we were not informed.  I mean, we in Knin

 5     were not informed.

 6        Q.   Did you appreciate that General Cermak was just being put before

 7     you as a front man, to be the man you went to?

 8        A.   He did not tell me that, no.

 9        Q.   Did you appreciate the fact that most, if not all, of

10     General Cermak's tasks were nothing to do with the military at all?

11        A.   I don't think that's a correct statement, sir.

12        Q.   So you disagree?

13        A.   Yes, I disagree.

14        Q.   Yeah.  In your interview with the investigators of the

15     Prosecution, you stated about what you would expect he would have at his

16     disposal - staff, headquarters, military personnel - do you remember that

17     when you stated that?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  To the extent we're going to refer to his

20     interview, can we get a specific reference to it so that both us and the

21     witness can refer to it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

23             MR. KAY:  I'm summarizing it, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you could approximately give the pages, where to

25     find it.

Page 13872

 1             MR. KAY:  Yes, if we go to page 84 of Exhibit P1160.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Is that my testimony?

 3             MR. KAY:

 4        Q.   Well, it is --

 5        A.   What I gave to --

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   Yeah.  Okay.

 8        Q.   It becomes your testimony.

 9        A.   Yeah.

10        Q.   And it's the passage where you give your view about the Croatian

11     army, disciplined army, chain of command has to be followed.  And I'm

12     sure he was informed of every small bit that happened in his area of

13     responsibility.

14             There's that passage there.  Here we are, at page 85.  Certainly

15     he should have reports and briefings from his commanders.  And without

16     having to read the full 110 pages, there's another passage which I can't

17     put my finger on.

18             But we know that we can see the picture, that he would have

19     briefings from commanders, that was in your mind --

20        A.   Can I -- can I --

21        Q.   Yes?

22        A.   If you would see here the word "commanders" is with small C.  I

23     meant subordinates, exactly.

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   What you are trying to tell me that he had his own commanders

Page 13873

 1     higher than him.  But here commanders, that means the commanders in the

 2     areas.

 3        Q.   That's what I mean as well, actually.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's --

 5             MR. KAY:  That is what I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It's good that it is clarified, but I did not

 7     understand the question of Mr. Kay to refer to any higher up commander

 8     but just those in command in the area which would report to

 9     Mr. Al-Alfi -- to -- not you, Mr. Al-Alfi, to --

10             THE WITNESS:  General Cermak.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Cermak, yes.

12             MR. KAY:

13        Q.   Yes.  Don't think what I -- I totally agree with you.  That's the

14     impression.  I'm not saying anything else other?

15        A.   Thank you.

16        Q.   -- than what you've said here.  And -- because that's what I'm

17     dealing with.

18        A.   Thank you, sir.

19        Q.   The subordinates, the commanders underneath him.  And in one of

20     your reports you refer to meeting Major Gojevic, who you described as the

21     deputy military governor.  Did it occur to you that the deputy military

22     governor, that gap in rank from major to three- or four-star

23     Colonel General, that there was a hierarchy missing of command?  Did it

24     occur to that you that was unusual?

25        A.   This was the area -- the period where General Cermak was mostly

Page 13874

 1     out of the area and trying to negotiate about the number of those to be

 2     handed over who were in our camp to the Croatian authorities.

 3             This man -- and if you noticed in some of my reports, I even

 4     questioned and I even called him, like, a liaison officer, to receive and

 5     to say I will come back to you.  I agree with you that the gap was big

 6     from, say, a two-star general to a major.

 7        Q.   Yes.  And you expected because of what you believed -- and I'm

 8     not doubting your belief.  Understand that, Mr. Al-Alfi.  I'm not saying

 9     you're coming here, giving us something that's not your belief, and I've

10     made it clear in my questions that it is your belief and that you hold

11     that.  What you expected was that he would be in command of the military

12     units in the area.  That is right?

13        A.   That's what I expected.

14        Q.   That he would be able to issue orders to those units and that

15     they would have a responsibility to follow them?

16        A.   When I took issues with him, he did not say, I have no command

17     over these military.  He said, Yes, I will deal with it, and sometimes he

18     even was talking to his subordinates in their local language, like giving

19     immediate instructions what to do.

20        Q.   Yes.  Without you knowing exactly what their --

21        A.   Yeah.

22        Q.   -- jobs were?

23        A.   No, I did not know.

24        Q.   Even -- exactly?

25        A.   That's true.

Page 13875

 1        Q.   And you would have expected him to be able to be briefed by the

 2     local -- by the Military District on what was happening?

 3        A.   That's what I expected -- that's the normal procedure.

 4        Q.   Yes.  You would have expected that he would know where the troops

 5     were in the region?

 6        A.   That's true.

 7        Q.   Where they were barracked?

 8        A.   That's exactly -- if you are in charge, you have to know

 9     everything.

10        Q.   Yes.  Where -- how to communicate with them?

11        A.   I did not know how he would communicate with them.

12        Q.   But you would expect it if he was the commander, that he would

13     know if his order was issued this way, that it goes through the chain to

14     end up with this unit in Benkovac or wherever.  That's what you were

15     expecting?

16        A.   I expected that, yes, that's true.

17        Q.   That the activities of those units and soldiers would be reported

18     through a chain to him.  You expected that?

19        A.   Of course.

20        Q.   That what the units were to do next, that he would be planning

21     that?

22        A.   Of course.  He was on the TV every day, telling all the people of

23     Croatia what's happening every day.  That means he is informed.

24        Q.   Yes.  You would expect as well that those orders and commands

25     from his subordinates that he had to be kept informed of, that were

Page 13876

 1     important matters, would be sent to him?

 2        A.   Not only important.  Everything he should be informed of.  That's

 3     what I expect.

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   That's the logical sequence of things.

 6        Q.   And that's what you believed was happening?

 7        A.   What I believed should happen.

 8        Q.   Yeah.  What you believed should happen.  You believed could be

 9     happening or was happening; I don't know.  Did you believe if it was

10     happening like that?

11        A.   Because he is a commander, that's -- have you to take it for

12     certain that this is the normal procedure.

13        Q.   Yes, exactly.  I have no further questions.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

15             Mr. Misetic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  I can start now or we can take an early break.

17     However you wish to proceed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We could take an early break.  Could I perhaps pay a

19     little bit of attention -- it might be convenient for Mr. Al-Alfi to

20     listen to it as well.

21             Mr. Kay, you took considerably less time than you -- Mr. Kay.

22             MR. KAY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I'm just taking some

23     instructions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You took considerably less time than you indicated

25     before.  Now Mr. Al-Alfi has expressed some concerns to the Victims and

Page 13877

 1     Witness Unit about when he could leave.  Our earlier assessment was that

 2     it might take us into earlier Thursday morning, but in view of the time

 3     you took, could I hear from the other Defence teams whether they want to

 4     adapt their estimates or whether it is still what it was, which would

 5     lead us to believe that we could finish this morning.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, there are a couple of smaller issues

 7     that have arisen, very small, and we're going to get a video during the

 8     break to show the witness in light of one of his answers.  But I

 9     definitely anticipate that he -- at least with respect to the Gotovina

10     Defence, he should finish today.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Agreed, Your Honour, today.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, in view of --

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Al-Alfi.  You don't have to thank me,

16     Mr. Al-Alfi, because it was on the mind of the Chamber that the parties

17     would have a full opportunity to examine and to cross-examine you, but if

18     it turns out that that will be finished today, that would meet some of

19     your concerns, if I was well-informed.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I really appreciate it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps we take an early break now, and we

22     resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Al-Alfi, you will now be cross-examined by

Page 13878

 1     Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Al-Alfi.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'd like to take you to the statement that you gave

 7     in 1998.  And if I could draw your attention to page 23, line 28.  And

 8     there in your statement you -- you're talking about the days preceding

 9     Operation Storm and you say --

10        A.   Sorry, did you say page 23?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   On line 28.

13        Q.   The sentence actually starts on line 27.

14        A.   Okay.

15        Q.   But you're talking about -- and this in the context of events

16     that are taking place prior to Operation Storm, and you say prior to that

17     you -- "Our estimates are around 100.000 troops to mass," meaning you --

18     you can't find it?

19        A.   Excuse me, I cannot find it.  Which page are we talking about?

20        Q.   I have it as page 23 of the 1998 statement that you gave.  And if

21     you start -- let's look at line 26.  There's a sentence there that

22     begins:  "Our estimates ..."

23        A.   Uh-huh.

24        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  It says:  "Our estimates was around 100.000 troops

25     to mass and saying either we are allowed to put our troops, because that

Page 13879

 1     was their interpretation of the UN Security Council resolution, that the

 2     territorial integrity and sovereignty of Croatia which is they knew that

 3     it was impossible for the Serbs to accept it.  Because it's like behind

 4     them.

 5             Now, I understood the sentence that what you were saying was that

 6     it was impossible for the Serbs to accept the sovereignty and territorial

 7     integrity of Croatia.  Is my interpretation correct?

 8        A.   No, sir.

 9        Q.   Okay?

10        A.   The interpretation is to accept that they put the troops, because

11     see the sentence itself where it put the troops behind us.

12        Q.   So that it was impossible for them to accept --

13        A.   Putting the troops.

14        Q.   I see.  Okay.  Very good.  If we could turn to page 26, and this

15     is your description of the morning of the 4th.  And you say, beginning at

16     line 29:  "No.  Everything was asleep, dead and normal.  The only cars

17     may be moving in that time was the UN cars.  It was a declared curfew.

18     So it's not undeclared.  It is a declared curfew.  For the local

19     residents, they cannot be until 6.00."

20             Can you explain a little bit more about what was happening there

21     in terms of the curfew?

22        A.   At that time the area was still under the RSK.

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   And they -- in preparation maybe of what is going on because the

25     atmosphere was preparation for war, they declared officially on the radio

Page 13880

 1     that it is curfew for the locals from that time.  Since that time.  But

 2     they cannot impose that curfew on the UN.  That's why I said the only

 3     cars moving that night were the UN cars.

 4        Q.   So as a result of that curfew, there were no civilians on the

 5     streets?  Was that what you saw on the 4th?

 6        A.   Yeah.  That was before the operation itself.

 7        Q.   Yes, I understand.

 8        A.   Yeah.

 9        Q.   Okay.  How did you come to know that there was curfew in place?

10        A.   I told you, it was announced on the local radio.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   The RSK radio, I mean.

13        Q.   Do you know how long the curfew regime had been in place?

14        A.   As -- well, I'm not sure, but it was few days before the 5th.

15        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to whether the Croatian army would

16     have known that at 5.00 a.m. there wouldn't be civilians outside as a

17     result of the curfew regime?

18        A.   I -- I do believe that they must have been monitoring the radio

19     of the RSK.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, if you would allow me.  You said it was

22     broadcast on the radio.  Could you hear that directly or was it

23     translated to you by anyone?

24             THE WITNESS:  It was translated to us, sir, because this is

25     before the operation itself.  So we had interpreters --

Page 13881

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You still had interpreters --

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at that time.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Now, let me ask you a little bit about the next -- sorry, on page

 9     29 of your statement, and I will be jumping around a little bit so we

10     won't go in --

11        A.   No problem.

12        Q.   -- in sequential order.

13        A.   No problem.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You discuss at page 29, going on to page 30, that you

15     were invited to a meeting in the afternoon -- I believe it's of the 4th,

16     where it was discussed --

17        A.   It was of the 5th.  The first day of the operation.

18        Q.   Well, if you take it from me that all parties in this case agree

19     that the first day of the operation was the 4th of August.

20        A.   That's -- I meant the first day.

21        Q.   Yes, okay.

22        A.   Whatever it is.

23        Q.   Okay.  So on the 4th of August, you went with General Forand to

24     this meeting with the ARSK in the afternoon of the 4th?

25        A.   That's true.

Page 13882

 1        Q.   And you were present when conversations were held with

 2     representatives of the RSK about an evacuation that was to take place?

 3        A.   That's true.

 4        Q.   Okay.  If we turn to page 31.  And you discuss -- I'm sorry.  I'm

 5     sorry, if we could go to page 30.  I apologise.

 6             In your statement you discuss what was discussed at that meeting.

 7     And if you look at line 18 --

 8        A.   Mm-hm.

 9        Q.   -- you say:  "They were shaking and they started demanding that

10     they want -- if I'm not mistaken, 70.000 litres of oil for cars and they

11     wanted 500 trucks to transport the civilians, because they were fighting

12     as usual, and they would continue fighting.  But the civilians are

13     getting injured," and so you want to move them.

14             Now, if we go to page 31.  And at line 26, I believe you write,

15     after the meeting.  You say:  "We told our headquarters this is their

16     demand.  We can't, we can't provide vehicles, but if it means that

17     civilians are to be saved, the headquarters gave us the approval."

18             Who is the headquarters?

19        A.   Our headquarters in Zagreb.

20        Q.   In Zagreb.  Okay.

21        A.   In Zagreb.  Because we deal -- we have to take instructions and

22     approval from our headquarters in Zagreb.

23        Q.   Okay.  Is Mr. Akashi in your headquarters in Zagreb?

24        A.   He was the head of the whole mission.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 13883

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have, please,

 2     Exhibit D337.

 3        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'm going to show you a report that Mr. Akashi sent

 4     to Mr. Annan on the evening -- in the evening of the 4th, and there are

 5     time stamps here.  For example, if you look in the -- off in the

 6     right-hand corner you can see a time stamp of when this document was

 7     received, I believe in Geneva, and it says at 2002 on the 4th of August.

 8             And if we turn to the next page at paragraph 4 -- well, first

 9     before we turn the page, I'm sorry.

10             You see the report and it is an update on the current situation

11     in Croatia.  A copy goes to Mr. Stoltenberg in Geneva, and I believe this

12     may be, in fact, the copy that was sent to Mr. Stoltenberg, which is why

13     the Geneva time stamp there.

14        A.   Mm-hm.

15        Q.   Were you reporting from Knin -- you just said that you talked to

16     your headquarters.  Were you sending written reports from Knin to

17     Mr. Akashi in Zagreb on the 4th, or were you orally communicating this

18     information?

19        A.   I was not reporting but if you notice from the report itself it

20     says UNMOs, military observers --

21        Q.   Well, forget the --

22        A.   -- and they have their own chain of command.

23        Q.   Let's put aside the report for a second.  Do you recall, on the

24     4th, whether you sent any written reports from Knin to Zagreb?

25        A.   Of course, yes.  I mean, it was daily, sometimes more than one

Page 13884

 1     report a day.

 2        Q.   After your meeting with the RSK officials in the evening of late

 3     afternoon/early evening of the 4th, did you send a written report to

 4     Zagreb about what was discussed at that meeting?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   If we could turn the page, please, in this document.

 7             Now, if you look at paragraph 4, Mr. Akashi writes to Mr. Annan

 8     and says:  "We have been advised by the civil affairs office in

 9     Sector South that the Knin leadership have requested UNHCR and UNPF

10     assistance in evacuating approximately 32.000 civilians from Benkovac,

11     Obrovac, Gracac, and Knin, to Petrovac, and Banja Luka in Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina."

13             Now the reference to the civil affairs office in Sector South,

14     that would be you.  Correct?

15        A.   That's true.

16        Q.   Okay.  That would -- now what I just read, that was information

17     that you had sent to Mr. Akashi on the -- in the evening of the 4th of

18     August.  Correct?

19        A.   But if you notice from the report, not necessarily all of it,

20     because from the report it mentions a number of areas and Knin.  That

21     means it can be also from Sector North which was not under my control.

22        Q.   Okay.  But all of those towns are in Sector South?

23        A.   That's what I'm saying, no, because we had two sectors.  If they

24     are in Sector South, then it can be from the military, because here we

25     are talking about military and we have inform.  But if that is there, I

Page 13885

 1     don't recall exactly the specific areas, but I was reporting to my

 2     headquarters.

 3        Q.   Just if we could -- I would just want to make sure that the

 4     transcript is accurate, page 42, line 8.

 5        A.   Which?  42, line 8.

 6        Q.   In front of you on the screen?  No, no, on the screen.  The

 7     actual transcript --

 8        A.   Mm-hmm.

 9        Q.   -- of what you just said, at line 8.

10             Let me ask you again, just so the record is clear.  After your

11     meeting with the RSK officials in the evening of -- or late afternoon,

12     early evening of the 4th, did you send a written report to Zagreb about

13     what was discussed at that meeting?

14        A.   That's true.

15        Q.   Okay.  Going back to the document on the screen, in fact, at the

16     meeting -- if you look on the screen what's reported here.  What I am

17     asking you is did you report that the Knin leadership asked for UNHCR and

18     UNPF assistance in evacuating approximately 32.000 civilians from

19     Benkovac, Obrovac, Gracac, and Knin, to Petrovac and Banja Luka in Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina?

21        A.   I don't recall it exactly.  But if he referred to us, definitely

22     there was something of that sort.  Because his reports also will depend

23     so long he mentioned UNHCR, that means UNHCR because we had a

24     representative of UNHCR.  He has all reports, he receives all reports

25     from all areas and then he puts his own reports.

Page 13886

 1        Q.   Well, what I'm particularly interested in is the last eight words

 2     in that sentence, that first sentence.  Sorry, nine words.  To Petrovac

 3     and Banja Luka in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 4             Now, at the meeting that you had with the RSK officials, they

 5     told you that the evacuation was going to Petrovac and Banja Luka;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   That's true.

 8        Q.   Was there any doubt in your mind when you left that meeting with

 9     the RSK officials on the evening of the 4th that their intention was to

10     evacuate these civilians to Petrovac and Banja Luka?

11        A.   Well, I had to take their word, what they said.  That's why the

12     arrangements were according to what they told us.

13        Q.   And you recall them specifically telling that you the arrangement

14     was to be that they are sending the civilians to Petrovac and Banja Luka?

15        A.   That's true.

16        Q.   Do you remember the name of the person who told you this?

17        A.   I don't remember it exactly.

18        Q.   Do you remember a person named Kosta Novakovic?

19        A.   I don't remember.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   But at that meeting there were a number of their officials, I

22     have to say.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Now, Mr. Registrar, if I could call up

25     Exhibit D712, please.

Page 13887

 1        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'm going to show you --

 2        A.   Which one are --

 3        Q.   You don't have a copy of the document.  I'm going to show you a

 4     report of a conversation on the 4th of August between Mr. Roberts, who

 5     you will recall was the press and information officer for Sector South,

 6     and a reporter that took place at 1415 on the 4th of August.  And if you

 7     look at the fourth paragraph -- Obradovic is the name of the journalist.

 8     It says:  "Asked by Obradovic on the situation in the town regarding the

 9     civilians, Roberts said that there was no panic among the civilians" --

10        A.   Can you -- which one you are referring to?

11        Q.   If you look on your screen on the left-hand side?

12        A.   Yes?

13        Q.   Four paragraphs down?

14        A.   Yes, I've got it.

15        Q.   Okay.  Obradovic is the name of the journalist.  So it says:

16     "Asked by Obradovic on the situation in the town regarding the civilians,

17     Roberts said that there was no panic among the civilians; however, in his

18     opinion, the people were extremely shocked and surprised by the shelling

19     this morning, apartments have been destroyed and many windows and shop

20     windows broken."

21             Now, you were in Knin on the 4th.  Do you agree that by the

22     afternoon of the 4th, that there was no panic -- by the early afternoon

23     of the 4th, that there was no panic in the town?

24        A.   That's not true.

25        Q.   What is your position?

Page 13888

 1        A.   Well, there were no civilians to panic.  I mean there were not

 2     many.  And I was in the -- in my headquarters.  I did not see them.

 3        Q.   So you don't know whether there was panic?

 4        A.   No.  No, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Well, let me then show you ... okay.  I'll

 6     move on.

 7             Let's talk about the shelling.  First, are you -- do you have any

 8     military experience?

 9        A.   No, sir.

10        Q.   Okay.  Had you ever been in a situation before where you found

11     yourself to be under artillery fire?

12        A.   Yes, sir.

13        Q.   And where was that?

14        A.   Sector West, Drvar.

15        Q.   And when?

16        A.   Operation Flash.

17        Q.   Now in terms of the assessments of the shelling that were

18     taking -- that took place on the morning of the 4th, were you in fact

19     relying on assessments made by UN military personnel?

20        A.   Of course, yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  Any specific individuals amongst the UN military personnel

22     upon whose assessments were relying?

23        A.   Of course, my talk is direct with General Forand.

24        Q.   Did you have occasion to speak to Colonel Leslie?

25        A.   Oh, yes, General Leslie was the Chief of Staff.

Page 13889

 1        Q.   Did you speak to General Leslie on the 4th of August about the

 2     shelling?

 3        A.   We were in the headquarters.  We talk about it all the time, and

 4     we discuss -- we were together.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Then let me take you back to page --

 6        A.   Because by then we were already moved even from our houses inside

 7     the headquarters.

 8        Q.   Let me take you back to page 27.  Page 27 of the -- your

 9     statement in 1998, I'm talking about.  At line 24, you begin and you say:

10     "It was just shelling the whole town.  I think if I'm not mistaken,

11     according to the military, our military, they assessed that in the first

12     few hours, I mean, two, three hours, it was shelling at the range of

13     maybe more than 10.000 per hour."

14             Do you recall who amongst your military told you that it was

15     shelling at the rate of 10.000 per hour?

16        A.   I don't recall exactly, but as I told you, my talk is always with

17     General Forand or Leslie, Colonel Leslie.

18        Q.   Well, 10.000 per hour and you say two -- in the first two or

19     three hours, it was assessed to be shelling at the range of 10.000 per

20     hour.  So if we're talk two or three hours, obviously we're talking about

21     20 to 30.000 shells falling on Knin in the first three hours of the

22     operation.  Did you subsequently, after you were able to exit the

23     compound, make an assessment as to whether Knin appeared to have been hit

24     with 20 to 30.000 shells or more, given that you are just talking about

25     the first two or three hours there.

Page 13890

 1        A.   When we talk about hearing the shelling, don't forget we hear the

 2     shelling inside Knin and we can hear even in the outskirts of Knin.

 3     That's what I refer to as the number.

 4             When we went out, well, we -- as far as we were allowed to be,

 5     and from our military that they saw some damage.

 6        Q.   First of all, you're talking about the outskirts of Knin.  What

 7     do you define as the outskirts of the Knin?

 8        A.   I mean outskirts of the city of Knin.

 9        Q.   Right, but can you describe what you mean by out -- are you

10     talking about other villages or are you talking about Dinara mountains?

11        A.   We don't know where, but we can say all the area.  I mean, it can

12     be other villages outside.  It can be the Dinara mountain.  It can be

13     anywhere because we don't know where they land.

14        Q.   Okay.  Do you believe that because General Forand, General Leslie

15     and yourself were subjected to the artillery fire, that you were not

16     capable of providing an objective assessment of -- of the shelling of

17     Knin?

18        A.   Well, that's not true.  Because it's not personal.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have 1D00-0741, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'm going to first ask you whether you've ever

22     seen -- on the screen, if you could look, please.  This is an article

23     from the New York Times from March 21, 1999, and I'm going to ask you

24     first based on content of the report whether you had any knowledge that

25     this report had been published.  And it says -- the title was "War crimes

Page 13891

 1     panel finds Croat troops cleansed the Serbs."  And if I could -- you tell

 2     me if I'm wrong, and I didn't look at it very carefully, but when you

 3     gave the statement in 1998, where were you working at the time?

 4        A.   At that time I was working for the UN in Morocco, MINURSO.

 5        Q.   Did you spend any time in New York during that time-period?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry.  I just saw the 212 area code, so I thought maybe you

 8     may have been working in New York as well.

 9        A.   I started working in New York as such in 2004.

10        Q.   Okay.  If you look at it, this is a report about what the

11     Tribunal had concluded up to that point about Operation Storm.

12             And if we go to page 3.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry to object so early.  Usually I would go

15     on with the questioning, but since the witness has not seen the article

16     and now the question seems to -- if I can complete my objection, if you

17     don't mind.  Now he's asking about an internal --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is -- is it an objection that can be raised in

19     the presence of the witness or not, because --

20             MR. HEDARALY:  I think so.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22             MR. MISETIC:  He hasn't said what Mr. Hedaraly says he said he

23     did not say he hadn't seen the article.  I haven't shown it to him yet,

24     so I don't know how he could say he doesn't know or hadn't seen it.

25     That's why we're taking it through this process.

Page 13892

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Well, then he should be first asked whether he's

 2     seen it before showing him a section of it and asking him if he's

 3     familiar with it.  There -- I mean, there's a broader issue of the

 4     admissibility of this document, and I think we've had a conversation, the

 5     Prosecution with Mr. Misetic, about it.  We can raise that issue now

 6     because this document is completely unrelated with this witness's

 7     evidence.  And there have been other issues with newspaper articles in

 8     this case, so perhaps we can deal with that before the witness -- before

 9     the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We usually decided these matters once we had seen

11     these documents, but I take it that -- let's give Mr. Misetic an

12     opportunity to introduce the matter.  And we'll more than ever listen

13     with care to how he phrases his question and how he takes the witness

14     through this document, which apparently tells us what this Tribunal's

15     opinion is.  That's -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             MR. MISETIC:  Well, it -- that's not the only thing, Your Honour,

17     and I would add that -- two points.  One, that not only did the

18     Prosecution not have a chance to interview this witness, we didn't have

19     an opportunity to interview this witness, so I don't know what he knows

20     or doesn't know about the subjects.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, let's -- if you proceed with the required

22     caution, Mr. Misetic.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'm showing you the portions of the article because

25     just by looking at a title of an article you, of course, may not know

Page 13893

 1     immediately what the substance of the article is.  But given your

 2     involvement in this case, you may have heard something about what's

 3     contained in this article.  That's why I'm putting them to you.

 4             This article talks about the conclusions reached by the

 5     Prosecutor's office in 1998 or 1999.  And if you look at page -- we're on

 6     page 3, the first full sentence there says:  "The most contentious

 7     recommendations of the investigators related to the shelling of Knin" --

 8        A.   Can you --

 9        Q.   It's the first one-line sentence at the top of your page there,

10     on the screen.  Do you see it?  There's the carry-over -- there it is

11     right there.

12        A.   Yeah, yeah.

13        Q.   Okay.  So it says:  "The most contentious recommendation of the

14     investigators related to the shelling of Knin."  The next

15     paragraph discusses testimony that had already been given by

16     General Forand and General Leslie to the Tribunal, and you can read that.

17     And then if we scroll down a little bit, there's a paragraph that begins:

18     "But the report ..."

19              "But the report goes on to quote an American lawyer at the

20     Tribunal, Clint Williamson, as seeking to discredit the Canadian

21     officer's testimony.  They were 'not capable of detached analysis,' he

22     said, according to the investigation report.

23             "Mr. Williamson, who described that the shelling of Knin as 'a

24     minor incident,' said that the Pentagon had told him that Knin was a

25     legitimate military target."

Page 13894

 1             And if we scroll down, it talks about the indictment review in

 2     this case.  In the paragraph it says:  "Then the review panel broke for

 3     lunch."  And if you go to the middle of that paragraph, it says:  "The

 4     review concluded by voting not to include the shelling of Knin in any

 5     indictment.  A conclusion that stunned and angered many at the Tribunal."

 6             Now, my first question to you is:  Do you recall hearing

 7     something about this report when it came out in 1999?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Have you had any contact with General Leslie or

10     General Forand since Knin?

11        A.   Not at all.  Just when I meet some people who know them, I just

12     say, Say hello to them.

13        Q.   Based on the fact that they told you on the 4th of August that

14     the shelling was occurring at the rate of 10.000 [Realtime transcript

15     read in error "1.000"] per hour, do you think potentially that they

16     really weren't capable of detached analysis?

17        A.   That can be your assessment, but I don't know.  They told me.  I

18     told you what they told me.

19        Q.   Were you aware at any time that after you gave your testimony to

20     the Tribunal in 1998, and after Generals Forand and Leslie had given

21     their statements as well, were you aware at any time that the Prosecution

22     had decided initially not to include the shelling of Knin in the

23     indictment.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- Mr. Hedaraly.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  I think we're back again at the same thing.  I

Page 13895

 1     mean he's already said he didn't know about the article, this portion.  I

 2     mean, this witness obviously has not seen it, does not know about any of

 3     the issues described in this article.  It has nothing to do with him.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  He can just answer yes or no.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that the witness can answer the

 7     question, but that was not the matter raised by Mr. Hedaraly.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If I may?  Just because he --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- I ask an opportunity to read the question

10     again.

11             Please tell me what you wanted to tell me, not to already put the

12     question.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I apologise.

14             The issue then, of course, he is talking specifically about the

15     article, did he hear about it from anyone else that he may have had

16     contact with.  In other words, that was related to this that may have

17     talked about what the Tribunal had decided or not to do -- to do or not

18     do, even if he wasn't aware that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. MISETIC:  -- the original source of that was this article.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me take it over at this moment.

22             Mr. Al-Alfi --

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any knowledge of decision-making on the

25     scope of indictments within the Office of the Prosecution of this

Page 13896

 1     Tribunal?

 2             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I don't have to ask you what the basis for such

 4     knowledge would be, not in any respect, not in relation to this case, not

 5     in relation to any other case.

 6             THE WITNESS:  No, sir, at all.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm also told at page

10     52, line 3, I may have misspoken, and it should say that the shelling was

11     occurring at the rate of 10.000 per hour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we're talking about 10.000 not about a

13     thousand per hour and I also notice that in --

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Al-Alfi, just so you know --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think it's my --

16             MR. MISETIC:  -- that wasn't related to you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- my question about -- my question on the

18     transcript, we do not see that I was referring to decision-making on

19     scope of indictments.  That is it now then on the record as well.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will tender the article and

22     then we should MFI because I anticipate we're going to have arguments.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  A fight over it.  Mr. Hedaraly.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Yeah.  We're going object, Your Honour, on two

25     separate grounds.  First of all is the relevance to this case.  It is

Page 13897

 1     apparently a report from someone on an internal investigation, internal

 2     meeting within the Office of the Prosecutor.  And secondly, we have had

 3     this issue during Mr. Roberts' testimony about newspaper articles that

 4     were not admitted into evidence.  And in his objection then, Mr. Misetic

 5     said at transcript reference 6843, line 8:  "Your Honour, if I may, this

 6     now opens the door to everybody going to LexisNexis, finding all the

 7     newspaper articles they want and tendering them into evidence as evidence

 8     and then telling the other side, Go call the journalists to cross-examine

 9     them."

10             I mean, at some point there has to be a line drawn.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And what was the position of the Prosecution at that

12     time?

13             MR. HEDARALY:  The position of the Prosecution at that time was

14     that such documents, if they were probative and relevant, could come in.

15     Mr. Waespi made several arguments in that respect, but the Chamber

16     ultimately decided with the Defence, that this article should not be

17     admitted.  So we're just seeking some consistency, especially considering

18     that this is -- has no relevance especially not with this witness, who

19     obviously has never seen it and cannot therefore comment on it.  At least

20     Mr. Roberts had talk to the journalist, Mr. Fisk, whose article was at

21     issue then.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if may I respond?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You may respond.

24             MR. MISETIC:  I will go back and find all of the press articles

25     that the OTP since that ruling has tendered into evidence, and on that

Page 13898

 1     basis, is -- since the practice has been that they have been tendering

 2     newspaper articles, I don't see any reason now for the OTP to take an

 3     inconsistent position with what they have been doing since July.  And we

 4     will go ahead and pull those articles for you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't -- yes, please.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  The second issue, Mr. President, is the issue is

 7     quite relevant in the sense that, as I indicated in our opening arguments

 8     and we will repeat them in final arguments but I will give you a

 9     relevance.  That is this:  All of the material -- or I shouldn't say all,

10     most of the material that has now been presented to you regarding the

11     shelling of Knin was in the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor by

12     the time the initial indictment review concluded not to include it in an

13     indictment.

14             As I said to you in opening statements, the second -- sorry, the

15     amended indictment against General Gotovina, confirmed in February of

16     2004, does not contained the words "shelling" or "artillery" anywhere in

17     the entire document.  The first time that they came up with a shelling

18     theory was in the joinder indictment in February of 2006.  I believe it's

19     entirely proper for the Defence to be able to argue in final argument

20     that the Office of the Prosecutor itself had this information for ten

21     years, in many cases, including the testimonies of General Leslie,

22     General Forand, Mr. Dryer, Mr. Dawes, and the witness who is sitting in

23     the chair, here, at the time they concluded not to include the shelling

24     of Knin in the indictment.  Whether ultimately you want to accept that

25     indictment or not, whether the Prosecution agrees with that argument or

Page 13899

 1     not, is really irrelevant.  It's probative and we're entitled to argue

 2     it.  And at the end of the day, Your Honour, if the Prosecution -- or if

 3     the Chamber concludes that it shouldn't --

 4             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  -- come in through this witness, then it is merely

 6     a question of whether we're going bar table the exhibit or whether it

 7     comes in through this witness.  But I also think that these are

 8     positions -- this is not simply about the underlying facts and hearsay.

 9     These are positions or indications of the positions of a party opponent,

10     much like some of the police reports that have been tendered by the

11     Prosecution, that are hearsay taken in the Croatian police or other

12     hearsay arguments that go towards matters related to the accused in this

13     case.

14             So I think it is admissible, Your Honour.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  May I briefly respond, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You raised the objection.  You were able to explain

17     it.  Very briefly.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  Well, it's just about the allegation that all the

19     material the Prosecution presented was available to them ten years ago.

20     That is just not true.  We have received information between 1998 and

21     2006, so I think that's not a relevant portion, and to take one slice of

22     that and then -- and then argue from there that, therefore, there is

23     nothing to support it and they had a solution then, does not make it

24     relevant.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I may?

Page 13900

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, yes, also half a minute.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Half a minute.  Either the Serb civilians left Knin

 3     because of shelling or they didn't.  To claim now that they discovered

 4     ten years later that that was what caused them to leave --

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  That's not what I said.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Excuse me.  That is the issue in the case, though.

 7     I would also add -- I believe I corrected myself earlier and I said not

 8     all but most of the information.  And if you look back at the witness

 9     transcripts and when they gave statements, I believe I will be found to

10     be correct.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I haven't heard anything and I do not

13     know to what extent it is relevant, whether there is any Rule 70 issue,

14     here because I see the article is about an internal report which is not

15     under a disclosure obligation.  And I do not know how it ended up in the

16     hands of this journalist, whether there's any issue there, if that would

17     be the case, and again I see this article for the first time in my life.

18     I am at page 3 without even having read pages 1 and 2.

19             But it immediately came to my mind and that this is -- and that's

20     not exactly what we saw in earlier press publications that it is dealing

21     with, apparently, an internal work product document within the OTP, which

22     might complicate matters.

23             Mr. Misetic, and I heard you say in a one-liner what the issue

24     was.  Sometimes it takes a few more lines to know exactly what the issues

25     are but --

Page 13901

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Well, Your Honour, if I may again?  This is why I

 2     suggest we MFI and argue this later because I'm aware that there are some

 3     issues.  However, I would point out that part of what you will hear in

 4     response is that Rule 70 has not been respected with respect to other

 5     documents.  And I believe I have called that to the attention of the

 6     Chamber before when the Prosecution has been tendering documents and they

 7     have said, We got this document in the mail anonymously, and therefore we

 8     can use it, despite the fact that, say, a document says state secret on

 9     it --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I'm talking about 70(A), internal work

11     product.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Whether it is it Rule 54 or whether it's 70(A), the

13     issue is once something in that case gets leaked to the Office of the

14     Prosecutor, or once something gets published in a major media for ten

15     years and there's no objection, there's no action taken by a party to the

16     case to preserve any Rule 70 claim, to now say that the entire world can

17     know it exists and the Trial Chamber can't --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That also is a complex issue.  You know that the

19     best way to draw attention to matters that should not have appeared in

20     publication is to protest against it.  That would certainly draw the

21     attention -- well, you're nodding yes.

22             MR. MISETIC:  If you look at the article, Judge, if we scroll

23     down, I can actually show you that the Chief Prosecutor --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll first read it.  And, Mr. Hedaraly, any

25     further matter on this?

Page 13902

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I do believe I need to make this one

 2     point if we're talking about Rule 70.  The Chief Prosecutor is actually

 3     quoted, commenting on the meeting in this article.  So to the extent

 4     there is protest or to the extent that once leaked the Prosecution

 5     acquiesced and participated in the actual commenting on the article, I

 6     think is something that the Trial Chamber should consider.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, any need to add anything to what

 9     Mr. Misetic said.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the document to be MFI'd under what

12     number?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D1212, marked

14     for identification.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that keeps that status for the time being.

16             Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Staying on the topic of shelling, Mr. Al-Alfi, if I could,

19     Mr. Registrar, have Exhibit D29 on the screen.

20             You testified yesterday that you were present and met Mr. Akashi

21     when he came to Knin on the 7th of August.  Correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'm going to show you a document.  This is

24     Mr. Akashi's memo to Mr. Annan on his trip to Knin on the 7th.  And if we

25     go to paragraph 2, he writes to Mr. Annan and says:  "My overall

Page 13903

 1     impression of the town of Knin is that it suffered considerable damage

 2     from artillery fire, which was evident in the streets, where I observed

 3     many shops with broken windows, cars damaged and off the road, artillery

 4     shell holes in the road, et cetera.  However, the damage to the town's

 5     structures, while noticeable, was less than I anticipated."

 6             And I'll let you read through the rest of the report.  But, first

 7     of all, do you agree with that assessment by Mr. Akashi as to what you

 8     found on your trip to Knin when you actually toured Knin?

 9        A.   That is a true reflection if you take into consideration that

10     Mr. Akashi toured only a very small part of the area.

11        Q.   Well --

12        A.   He did not go all over the area.

13        Q.   Well, neither did you, then, correct?  I mean, you were with

14     Mr. --

15        A.   Later on we reported something when we were allowed to go.  But

16     at that visit, for your information, even the first time we had the

17     heliport in our headquarters, the first time that we were not allowed

18     even his helicopter to land in our headquarters but it should land

19     somewhere else.  So it was only from the heliport, taking him to meeting

20     with officials and those streets what he saw, and then he came to our

21     headquarters to talk and then he left.

22        Q.   But is it fair to say that on the 7th, you were with Mr. Akashi

23     the entire time?

24        A.   Of course.

25        Q.   Yes.  So you --

Page 13904

 1        A.   Of course.

 2        Q.   On the 7th, you didn't see more than Mr. Akashi saw?

 3        A.   On that road?  Where we parked, yes.

 4        Q.   Well, my question is you were always in the same group?

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   So it was you, it was Mr. Akashi, do you recall if Mr. Flynn was

 7     also present with you?

 8        A.   Yeah.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So it's you, it's Mr. Akashi, it's Mr. Flynn, taking the

10     same tour of Knin together?

11        A.   It's not true to say the tour of Knin.

12        Q.   Sorry.  The same trip through Knin together?

13        A.   The same road to meeting the officials in Knin.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   I would put it this way.

16        Q.   Now --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, could we seek further clarification

18     about -- especially about the helicopter.

19             You said no permission was given to -- that the helicopter land

20     in the headquarters, I take it then, the compound.  Now this Chamber has

21     received some evidence that there was a helicopter -- there was a place

22     for helicopters to land at a sports field not that far away from the

23     headquarters, close to the railway track, and approximately where you

24     take the road to the -- where the road turns to the north, being parallel

25     to the rail track at the railway station.

Page 13905

 1             Is that where this helicopter landed?

 2             THE WITNESS:  That's true, sir.  But we used to have helicopter

 3     pad inside the headquarters so -- and usually our helicopters land there,

 4     but this was the first time that the Croatian authorities insisted that

 5     he lands in where you say it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that sports field.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Exactly, sir.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now -- I mean, if we're talking about not a trip

 9     through Knin, Mr. Akashi went, accompanied by you, from there to where?

10     Where was the meeting?

11             THE WITNESS:  To the headquarters of the --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  To the headquarters.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Shortest route?

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, shortest route.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That is first going west, then turning to the south

17     and then arrive at the compound.

18             THE WITNESS:  That's true.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now from there, where else did he go?

20             THE WITNESS:  He went to meet the officials also in Knin, which

21     is on the main street.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  On the main street.

23             THE WITNESS:  Where General Cermak was also stationed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Main street being --

25             THE WITNESS:  I don't recall it.  It used to be even used before

Page 13906

 1     that for the RSK.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If the parties could agree on where that is,

 3     especially whether that is in the quarters where -- west of the railway

 4     station before you have crossed and entered into the remainder part.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  It is.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So could I say the area closest to Knin castle --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- down at the bottom.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So not entering into the -- not crossing the railway

11     and not going to other areas.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  If I could follow up on that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

14             MR. MISETIC:

15        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, do you recall Mr. Akashi and/or Mr. Flynn also going

16     to the hospital on the 7th to assess whether the hospital had been

17     shelled?

18        A.   I don't recall it at this moment, but it's possible.

19        Q.   Okay.  So if it is possible, then Mr. Akashi and/or Mr. Flynn --

20        A.   I don't hear you.

21        Q.   I said --

22        A.   Can you talk?

23        Q.   Yes, testing 1, 2, 3?

24        A.   Yeah, I can hear you.

25        Q.   Okay.  You don't recall whether there was also a trip to the

Page 13907

 1     hospital to assess the hospital itself.  Correct?

 2        A.   I don't recall it at this moment.  Maybe that is it true.  But I

 3     don't recall it.  The exact programme, I don't recall it.

 4        Q.   Do you also recall several military attaches from several

 5     embassies in Zagreb, coming to Knin on the same day and also touring Knin

 6     and including going to the hospital?

 7        A.   Well, if that was an arrangement, it would be have been with the

 8     government of Croatia but not through us.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Do you also recall the fact that international media had

10     been allowed into Knin on the 7th of August, while Mr. Akashi was there?

11        A.   I did not see them, but if they were there, then they were --

12     this is something between them and the government of Croatia.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you one of those reports.  It's a BBC report

14     from the 7th of August.  It is it Exhibit D63.

15        A.   This is not in English.

16        Q.   It's coming right now.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             "Reporter:  But what is clear is that the Croatians are in

19     control.

20             "Nicolas Witchell:  Oh, very much so, yes.  Their flags are

21     flying everywhere in this town which only 48 hours ago the Krajina Serbs

22     regarded as their capital now total under the control of the Croatians.

23     The UN say that so far as they can tell, the Croatians have been behaving

24     with discipline and in a correct fashion."

25             MR. MISETIC:

Page 13908

 1        Q.   Now, before I ask you a question let me also read to you what

 2     Mr. Flynn said and told this Trial Chamber.  This is it at page 1306 at

 3     line --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, we usually do not refer to testimony of

 5     other witnesses until the question has been put to the witness and

 6     then --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  I think he has addressed in his direct examination

 8     but I will -- if you -- he has addressed the issue I want to address in

 9     direct examination.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.  I do not know what exactly the

11     issue is but if you would follow that --

12             MR. HEDARALY:  I believe the procedure is if he has addressed it,

13     just to refer to where in his direct examination then we know and we can

14     compare the two.

15             MR. MISETIC:  I've actually --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do not know yet what the question is, so I

17     have just --

18             MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] I'd then prefer to do outside

19     the presence of the witness, but I have a reason for doing my

20     cross-examination this way, Mr. President.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  That was the procedure given by the Chamber --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  -- that if he -- the witness has mentioned it,

24     either in the statement or in direct examination, he should be pointed to

25     where that is and then be impeached and confronted with the new testimony

Page 13909

 1     of someone else, just to be fair to the witness.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I don't believe that's the -- I don't believe

 3     that's --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Whatever it is, Mr. Misetic, you don't have to read

 5     it to the witness, but if you give us the reference.  I mean, the witness

 6     is not able to manipulate the screens whereas we are.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  It's page 13809.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- first the date, please.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yesterday.  This is just --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check it.  One second, please.

11                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, page 13.000 --

13             MR. MISETIC:  809, beginning at line 21.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  809.

15             MR. MISETIC:  And going on to the next page through line 3.  And

16     actually you can start earlier, Mr. President, to put it in context,

17     which is starting at line 17, on page 13809.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You have found it, Mr. Hedaraly.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Now what Mr. Flynn said with respect to that trip

22     on the 7th was -- the question was:  "Mr. Flynn, you were also there on

23     the 7th of August.  Do you recall UN personnel saying something to the

24     effect that Croatian forces were behaving professionally and in a correct

25     manner?"

Page 13910

 1             His answer was:  "I think there was a sense at that time in Knin

 2     that they were doing so.  I should point out that we got information from

 3     some of those 700 displaced persons which filled in the picture, so to

 4     speak.  But on that first day, the situation seemed relatively stable and

 5     under control."

 6             Now, do you agree that on that day that Mr. Akashi was in Knin,

 7     that the assessment was that the Croatian forces were behaving

 8     professionally and in a correct manner?

 9        A.   Well, it depends on how you see professionally.  I call

10     General Cermak also a professional.  But what he meant by professionally,

11     that's for him to elaborate on.

12        Q.   Well, did you deem the situation on the 7th of August to be

13     stable and under control, in Knin?

14        A.   Under control, in the sense that there is no two parties

15     fighting, yes.  But under control, that everything is back to normal, I

16     don't think so.

17        Q.   Well, the reason I'm asking you these questions, Mr. Al-Alfi, is

18     that yesterday you testified at page 13.809, beginning at line 23, that:

19     "On that day, we observed at least ten or 11 houses on fire in town."

20        A.   That's true.

21        Q.   Okay.  Can you explain why that fact wasn't in Mr. Akashi's

22     report, wouldn't have been noted in a BBC report, wasn't mentioned by

23     Mr. Flynn?  Do you have any explanation why they might have not seen what

24     you saw on that day?

25        A.   They saw what I saw, and Mr. Akashi himself, as I reported, took

Page 13911

 1     it with the officials immediately.  And if you notice from the earlier

 2     questioning that even when we talk after the 20th, there were some houses

 3     still being burned.

 4        Q.   Yes, but I'm talking about 7th August.

 5        A.   No, I'm just telling you.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have 1D00-0745, please.

 8        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, this is a report by Mr. Akashi from the 10th of

 9     August to Mr. Annan, and it reports on his meeting with the ICFY

10     co-chairman, which, as you know, were Mr. Stoltenberg and Mr. Bildt, and

11     had this meeting in Zagreb on the 9th.

12             MR. MISETIC:  And if I could have page 3, please.

13        Q.   The paragraph that begins:  "The co-chairmen were keen for

14     detailed information on the humanitarian situation in the sectors ..."

15             And then if we scroll -- go down a little bit to the middle to

16     the sentence that begins:  "They wished to know -- to also know."

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   Yeah.

19        Q.   "They wished to also know what we would do with the information

20     we were currently receiving on human rights abuses and asked whether such

21     information would be conveyed to The Hague."

22             Now, as someone who worked in civil affairs, do you know or have

23     any information or -- I should say, can you recollect, when was the first

24     time that you recall hearing that this institution, the ICTY, may be

25     interested in investigating Operation Storm?

Page 13912

 1        A.   That is not for me to decide, because that was the SRSG.  That

 2     was his opinion and what he wants to follow-up.

 3        Q.   Actually, this --

 4        A.   Yeah, in his later --

 5        Q.   It's actually one of the co-chairmen or both co-chairmen --

 6        A.   Yes, it was in Akashi's report.  That's what I'm saying.  In

 7     Akashi's message.  I did not say this is the first time I see it, but

 8     that's for Akashi to answer, not for me.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you about you personally.  Did you ever, while you

10     were in Sector South, after Operation Storm, hear that the ICTY may be

11     investigating this case?

12        A.   No.  I think that was -- at that time it was too early even to

13     talk about it.  Because we were only observing and reporting at that

14     stage.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, if we go to the next paragraph, please.

16             On more generals topics, the second sentence says:  "Granic," and

17     that refers to the Croatian Foreign Minister.  "Granic had also

18     indicated ..."  It's the third line in the paragraph that begins:  "On

19     more general topics."

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   It says:  "Granic had also indicated that the Croatian military

22     plan had been designed to facilitate their departure, a form of ethnic

23     cleansing by other means, in Mr. Bildt 's opinion.  With regard to the

24     swift routing of the ARSK, it was felt that this had been a result of the

25     Croatians taking the ARSK by surprise with new military tactics.  The HV

Page 13913

 1     targeting of command and control elements, the taking of high ground and

 2     the intensive use of heavy artillery on towns had been unanticipated.  In

 3     effect, the Croatians had used the past few years to prepare for a

 4     professional military assault, while the ARSK had continued to focus on

 5     past tactics.  However, despite reports to the contrary, it was the

 6     ICFY's understanding that the ARSK had mounted a fierce defence of Knin

 7     and had had no intention of abandoning the town ..."

 8             Now, I'm going to refer to this document again after I show you

 9     the next document.  But before I do that, was it also your understanding

10     that the intention of the ARSK was to mount a fierce defence of Knin?

11     Did you know?

12        A.   Talking?  Yes.  Even they reaffirmed it the night [Realtime

13     transcript read in error "9th"] -- if you see from my previous statement,

14     when we met them the night they asked the demands.  They were saying,

15     Yes, we want the families, but we will be here, we will be resisting,

16     yes, talking, but what abilities they have, I'm not aware.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'm interested in this because this is a meeting on

18     the 9th of August and it talks about the targeting -- that the HV

19     targeted command and control elements, took high ground and intensively

20     used heavy artillery on towns.

21             MR. MISETIC:  And first, Mr. President, I tender this exhibit

22     before I move on to the next one.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1213, Your Honours.

Page 13914

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D1213 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. MISETIC:

 3        Q.   Now --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit D1210,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, this is tab 5 in your binder.  Just for the sake of

 7     the transcript -- Mr. Al-Alfi, you don't have to worry about this.  For

 8     the sake of the transcript at page 69, line 10, if the Chamber doesn't

 9     mind, I don't think he said even they reaffirmed it on the 9th.  I

10     believe he said on the night.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I understood as well.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

13        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'm interested in the second paragraph on this page.

14     And there the third sentence says and I quote -- let's start with the

15     second sentence.

16             This is your report and it says the:  "Croatian offensive mainly

17     centred on Knin with several thousand" --

18        A.   Second paragraph?

19        Q.   Second paragraph, second sentence.

20        A.   Okay.

21        Q.   "The Croatian offensive mainly centred on Knin with several

22     thousands of impacts, although now it appears that certain targets were

23     subject to greater shelling, such as the fuel supply depot and Knin radio

24     station.  Some of the shelling could be described as indiscriminate and

25     resulted in casualties and damage amongst civilians and their property."

Page 13915

 1             I'm interested in the way you phrased that sentence because

 2     it's -- you wrote "although it now appears," and this is a report of the

 3     11th of August, which suggests to me that after the 4th, the appearance

 4     somehow -- you obtained more information than when you were there on the

 5     4th.  Am I right?

 6        A.   Certainly, yes.  Every day we get more information and we were

 7     out and we started seeing also things.

 8        Q.   Okay.  What -- do you recall, can you tell us exactly what

 9     additional information you obtained that then allowed you to say that it

10     now appears that certain targets were subject to greater shelling?

11        A.   Because by seeing some of the damage, that why I mentioned some

12     of them.

13        Q.   So you're just referring to your own personal --

14        A.   Not personal.  Not personal.  I have my own civil affairs

15     officers who are touring the area.  We started being allowed to move in

16     the city, so they come and report to me what they saw, and the military

17     also were moving.  So they could -- I mean, not as freedom completely,

18     but they could observe it and report it.

19        Q.   Now, some of your civil affairs officers, do you recall the names

20     of the people -- of these civil affairs officers who reported this

21     information back to you?

22        A.   All of them report to me.  All -- all the civil affairs --

23     because I was the -- literally the head civil affairs coordinator, that

24     means heading all this unit.

25        Q.   I mean which of them gave you the information --

Page 13916

 1        A.   I don't recall specific, but all of them they come and report to

 2     me, and it is not a secret.  The UN knows who were the people working for

 3     me at that time.

 4        Q.   Okay.  This statement that the shelling resulted in casualties

 5     and damage amongst civilians and their property.  Civilian bodies,

 6     including children and women were seen in the streets of Knin.

 7             You didn't observe children, the bodies of children in the

 8     streets of Knin, did you?

 9        A.   Personally?

10        Q.   Correct.

11        A.   No.  But as I said in my statement also, the day, the day we were

12     called to the RSK it was the first day.  When we stepped out of the APC,

13     I saw with my own eyes some civilians, dead bodies on the street.

14        Q.   Okay.  And what were they dressed in?

15        A.   Civilian clothes.

16        Q.   Like -- can you describe the clothes?

17        A.   Shirt and normal shirts and -- but not the military -- I would

18     consider that a civilian.

19        Q.   How many?

20        A.   I did not count them because we had to jump out of the APC to go

21     to the meeting.  It was -- they -- the whole area was still under

22     shelling, but if I recollect correctly, just next to us where we stop the

23     APC there were around 10, 11 bodies.

24        Q.   Where did you stop the APC?

25        A.   On the main street, where it used to be the RSK headquarters.

Page 13917

 1        Q.   So these were bodies of people located next to the RSK

 2     headquarters?

 3        A.   No, no, in the street, just before.  Not at the headquarters

 4     itself.  The headquarters had no compound.  It was on the main street.

 5     You jump from the car to the door and you go in.  So it was the main

 6     street used, and we stopped our APC -- you know, inside the APC we don't

 7     see.  We have only small things, small windows.

 8        Q.   And how many -- how many metres was it from the ARSK

 9     headquarters?

10        A.   I would say around 40, 50 metres.

11        Q.   And is there a reason that this observation doesn't appear in any

12     of your reporting or General Forand's reporting?

13        A.   I said it in my statement.

14        Q.   I mean on the 4th, or the 5th, or the 6th.

15        A.   It was not meant to say -- I mean, we were not talking -- at that

16     time we were talking how to meet the overall situation, not counting

17     bodies at that time.

18        Q.   If you had seen these bodies and you were travelling with

19     General Forand, would General Forand have also seen these bodies?

20        A.   That's what I expect, yes.

21        Q.   Did you discuss it with General Forand?

22        A.   He already saw them.  To discuss what?  How they were killed?  We

23     knew that the area was under shelling.

24        Q.   Did you raise the issue with the ARSK authorities as to why they

25     were leaving bodies in the street?

Page 13918

 1        A.   I told you, the area -- still the area was under shelling.  We

 2     were called only for a certain purpose, with their demand that they want

 3     fuel and all that.  It was no time to discuss anything else.

 4        Q.   Did anybody say, We should call an ambulance or transport these

 5     people to a hospital?

 6        A.   An ambulance?  Nobody was moving.

 7        Q.   That doesn't mean they're dead, does it?

 8        A.   They were dead bodies, sir.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   They are not moving.  They were lying down in the street.  They

11     were dead bodies.  I could see some of them in bad shape.

12        Q.   Now let me ask you -- let me draw your attention to page 42 of

13     your statement.

14        A.   42.

15        Q.   Okay.  If we start at page 24 [sic] and this is where you talk

16     about these bodies.  And you say:  "You saw them on the main street, they

17     were -- at least if I'm not mistaken, they open the door and we were

18     about to go to the meeting.  I was looking and there were quite a number

19     of dead bodies in the main street.  I mean, if I'm not mistaken at least

20     between 10 and 15.

21             And then you were asked:  "Did you take a close look at those

22     bodies?

23             "Answer:  No.

24             "Could you say how those people were killed?

25             "Answer:  Because as I told you, we just left the APC, and for

Page 13919

 1     security purposes, we have to rush into the building because we cannot --

 2     it was not fun at this time."

 3             If you go to the next page:  "What else did you see between

 4     moving from the APC and the military area?

 5             "Answer:  As I told you, the APC was immediately in front of

 6     the -- I saw a number of houses on the main street burned by shelling,"

 7     and then it goes on.

 8             So what you said here was, first, you agree that you didn't take

 9     a close look at the bodies.  Correct?

10        A.   Yeah.

11        Q.   Second, you don't know how those people were killed?

12        A.   I don't know.  But I took it that because of the shelling.  But I

13     did not know, exactly.

14        Q.   Third, when you saw what you believed to be bodies, it was as you

15     were exiting the APC and entering the ARSK headquarters building?

16        A.   Mm-hm.

17        Q.   Correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And whatever you saw would have been at least at a distance of

20     50 metres because, as you told me, these bodies -- alleged bodies were

21     50 metres from the ARSK headquarters?

22        A.   May I correct you?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   Yes, we saw, as you might say, 40 or 50 metres.  Besides I told

25     you the APCs have small windows.

Page 13920

 1        Q.   That's not what you said here.

 2        A.   I'm just telling you.

 3        Q.   Yeah.

 4        A.   While passing we saw also through that small window, but when

 5     they opened the door, we saw the dead bodies exactly from a distance.

 6        Q.   You agree with me that's not what you said in 1998?

 7        A.   I said what I said in 1998, correct.

 8        Q.   All right.  If I could take you to -- just a few more questions.

 9             Yesterday at page 13.822, lines 16 to 18, Mr. Russo was asking

10     you some questions about a report concerning someone from the Croatian

11     Red Cross, and you said -- and it concerned the issue of prisoners of

12     war, and I believe you say that they believe that this man from the

13     Croatian Red Cross in Zadar confirmed to -- that to them they are

14     prisoner of war especially those who were in military uniform of the RSK.

15             Were there persons inside the UN camp in military uniform?  I

16     mean, outside the UN personnel.  Were there Serbs in the UN camp,

17     beginning on the evening of the 4th of August, that were in military

18     uniform?

19        A.   When people came to the camp --

20        Q.   Yes?

21        A.   -- they were mostly civilians.  Yes, there were some with

22     military uniform.  But the condition of the UN to allow them in was two

23     conditions.  One, all weapons, if they have any, and they should be

24     searched and the weapon should be handed to the UN.  This was the first

25     condition.

Page 13921

 1             Second condition, that they would be provided with civilian

 2     clothes and they should not stay inside the camp with their military

 3     uniform.

 4        Q.   How many of those types of individuals were there?

 5        A.   I don't recall exactly, but they were a very small number.

 6        Q.   Okay.  If I could take you to tab 11 in your folder or binder.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Which is 65 ter 4179, Mr. Registrar.

 8        Q.   This is a report from the 1st of September that you wrote.

 9        A.   Mm-hm.

10        Q.   And if we go to the last page, which is page 6 in the English.

11             You write:  "Furthermore, our office in Zadar reported that

12     Croatians are being moved quickly to resettle in the villages and towns.

13     The building of destroyed houses and properties and the clearing of mines

14     have started.  Croatian officials hope that most of the displaced persons

15     will be resettled back in their communities within the next two months.

16     Hotels and resort areas are also rehabilitating and refurbishing their

17     properties that had become refugee centres.  All this is in preparation

18     for the next tourist season.  Obviously, the hopes and expectations for

19     renewed economic activities in this area are quite high."

20             Can you -- do you have any knowledge or information that you can

21     share with us about why the Croatians wanted to move these people out of

22     the hotels and tourist resorts and move them into the newly liberated

23     areas?

24        A.   First of all let me tell you -- I mean, when we talk here, we're

25     not talking about Knin itself only.  We're talking about the whole

Page 13922

 1     sector.

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   Okay?  Because the hotels and resorts were not in Knin itself.

 4        Q.   I know.

 5        A.   Yeah, yeah, I just want you to be aware of it.  So some of those

 6     areas were hosting refugees, all right, and they want them, as I said,

 7     because they started, even on the media, talking about refurbishing the

 8     tourism in that area.

 9        Q.   But were you aware that the Croatian government had a desire to

10     move people and house them in the liberated areas and get them out of

11     refugee centres?

12        A.   Well, we saw some already in action.

13        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Al-Alfi, I'm just going to show you one video which is

14     a follow-up on some answers that you gave to Mr. Kay this morning, and it

15     relates to the issue of translators or interpreters.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have 1D00-0749.  It is a

17     video-clip.

18        Q.   It is not in e-court yet because it just came up as result of

19     your testimony this morning, Mr. Al-Alfi.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  I just don't know about the 4179.  It's on the

21     Prosecution's list, but I don't know if Mr. Misetic wants to move it in

22     as a Defence exhibit or ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you strike it from your list.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, that's fine.  We tender it, Mr. President.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 4179 becomes Exhibit D1214.

Page 13923

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D1214 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, we've disclosed the audio and the

 3     video to the Prosecution, but we have no need for the audio.  So we won't

 4     be playing the audio or tendering it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If you do not play the audio, there's no need to

 6     have it translated.  We just look at the pictures.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, this is a visit to Knin by Mr. Akashi on the 5th of

 9     June, 1995, and he is holding talks with Mr. Martic, and I believe you

10     were in the delegation --

11        A.   Excuse me, when did you say?

12        Q.   5th of June?

13        A.   No, sir.  This is it wrong.

14        Q.   It could be later in June --

15        A.   It could be later because I arrived in Knin on the 9th or 10th of

16     June.

17        Q.   Okay, well, then I will check the date, but it's definitely 1995.

18        A.   It can be June, yes.  I think the date definitely has to be after

19     the 9th because I arrived 9th or 10th June in Knin.

20        Q.   It is possible.

21             MR. MISETIC:  And Your Honour, it's because the issue only came

22     up this morning, so we've tried to put this together.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, looking at the first picture

24     it says the 5th of June.  So unless --

25             MR. MISETIC:  If it's wrong, we'll change it.

Page 13924

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Who put it there?

 2             MR. MISETIC:  We put it that on the top --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You put it there.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have to apologise.  I was reminded before by

 6     the registrar that, Mr. Misetic, that we are making the same mistakes, as

 7     many others do, that is --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE -- you immediately make the mistake again, that is to

10     speak at the same time.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you for lumping yourself in with me,

13     Mr. President.

14             If we could go head and play this video.

15        Q.   If the date is wrong we will of course make the change, but I

16     believe you are present for this meeting.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Go ahead.

18                           [Videotape played]

19             MR. MISETIC:

20        Q.   Is that you behind Mr. Akashi?

21        A.   That is my picture.

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   Yeah, the one on the left.

24        Q.   Yes.  So we will check the date.  But I just want to show you the

25     pictures and ask you to identify certain individuals, if you can.  So ...

Page 13925

 1                           [Videotape played]

 2             MR. MISETIC:

 3        Q.   Do you recall the person sitting at the far end of the table?  Do

 4     you recall him at all?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Do you recall the name of Sabo Strbac?

 7        A.   No.  The only one I recall, but not by name, the one with the

 8     suit.  He used to call himself the president of -- yeah, that one I know.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Al-Alfi.

10             The gentleman sitting at the far end of this table, and I could

11     be wrong, but it looks like directly across from you.  Is that you at the

12     end of the table?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   I could be wrong.  But you recall --

15        A.   Because I cannot sit on this side.  I'm on the other side.

16        Q.   No, no, no.  I meant, you see the person looking towards the

17     camera at the end of this table?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And then there's someone sitting across from him?

20        A.   I don't see the picture clearly.

21        Q.   Well, do you know that individual?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. MISETIC:  We can skip to the one-minute mark.  Right there.

25     Stop.

Page 13926

 1        Q.   The person behind Mr. Martic on the left-hand side, do you

 2     remember him?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Mr. Alun Roberts?

 5        A.   Maybe.  But I don't recall his face.  It has been 13 years.

 6        Q.   This individual on the right, in the delegation where you are, is

 7     named Predrag Sare.  Do you recall that name?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. MISETIC:  We'll skip forward then.  Stop.

11        Q.   Is that you in the back corner, back right --

12        A.   It's -- it's not clear.  To me, it's here not clear.  But it can

13     be, but I cannot say definitely yes, me.  But I was with the delegation

14     on that day.

15        Q.   Okay.  Were you ever told that there was an issue in the

16     UN Sector South about an interpreter being employed in the sector despite

17     the fact that it was known that he had, at least in the past, worked for

18     Serbian intelligence?

19        A.   No.  I was not told.

20        Q.   Do you know if this interpreter in fact, even after

21     Operation Storm, was present in the compound and continued to provide

22     interpretation for persons in the -- officials in the UN compound?

23        A.   No, I don't know.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   Not -- he did not work for me, at least definitely.

Page 13927

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, we will tender the video into

 2     evidence.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  Frankly, Your Honour, I fail to see what the

 4     relevance of it is.  I mean, we'll review the audio --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  At least we know who Mr. Al-Alfi does not know --

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm not sure that assists the Chamber.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- while I don't know how -- well, I think, as such

 8     it has been shown to Mr. Al-Alfi and he has given some answers, and I

 9     think it would be appropriate to have it in evidence, if only for later

10     comparison if any other witness comes and --

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I may just say -- obviously, as I

12     said, we hadn't prepared this --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, you --

14             MR. MISETIC:  -- for today, but it came up, and in case it is an

15     issue later, it should be in evidence in my opinion.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Not because it gives us a lot of information,

17     but you would say it could be MFI'd for that purpose as well.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  Well, exactly.  Especially because the witness's

19     testimony is that there were interpreters before but not after.  And this

20     is a June video, it doesn't really do anything with the witness, but, I

21     mean, we can MFI it.  It's not a major --

22             MR. MISETIC:  It is, I think, undisputed amongst the parties that

23     Mr. Sare continued to be an interpreter after Operation Storm, so I'm not

24     sure what the basis is for that objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not spend too much time on it.

Page 13928

 1             Mr. Registrar, the number of this exhibit would be ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is becomes Exhibit D1215.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MR. MISETIC:  I have one additional question, Mr. Al-Alfi.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But after I have --

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Oh, sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- given the decision of the Chamber that Exhibit

 8     D1215 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi you never sought a meeting with General Gotovina?

11        A.   Excuse me?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS:  I think he has to press the --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, we have to ...

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, you never sought a meeting with General Gotovina

18     after Operation Storm.  Correct?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Why not?

21        A.   He is a military.  As I told you, we have to understand the

22     structure.  If anyone to seek a meeting with, it was General Forand, but

23     I saw him once, or twice, by coincidence.  I was with General Cermak and

24     he was there, but for a few minutes.  I had nothing to discuss with him.

25     I am discussing with the man in front of me who I'm told that he is

Page 13929

 1     charge of Knin.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 3        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, thank you for answering my questions.

 4        A.   Thank you very much, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to cross-examine

 6     Mr. Al-Alfi.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I am.  I'm looking at the clock.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll first have a break, and could you give

 9     us your final estimate on time.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I would say 45 minutes, Your Honour, at the

11     most.  I have three -- I have basically three to four themes to cover.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Five minutes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Five minutes.

15             We will then have break and resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Al-Alfi, you will now be cross-examined by

19     Mr. Kuzmanovic.  Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

20             Please proceed.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

22        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Al-Alfi.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   I'd like to take you back to what you talked about in your

25     cross-examination with Mr. Misetic.  On page 75, lines 10 to 21, you were

Page 13930

 1     asked some questions about what you saw while you were in the APC going

 2     toward the ARSK headquarters building.

 3             And --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Al-Alfi, you'll not find it because

 5     Mr. Kuzmanovic is referring.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm referring --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to the transcript of today.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes.

 9        Q.   If I'm referring to your transcript, Mr. Al-Alfi, I will let you

10     know.

11        A.   Thank you.

12        Q.   You were asked a question about what you saw, and you said you

13     could see out of a window in the APC bodies out in the street.  Do you

14     recall that?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   Now you can refer to your statement, Mr. Al-Alfi.  I'll take to

17     you page 30 of your statement, your written statement, which is, I

18     believe, P1160.

19             And the investigator was asking you some questions related to

20     that same issue in your statement back in March of 1995.  On line 7, you

21     were asked:  "When you were being transported in the APC, could you see

22     anything outside."

23             And your answer was:  "No, because the APC did not," and then it

24     says, "/unclear/ windows."

25             And this statement, this is what you gave in 1998.  Correct?

Page 13931

 1        A.   Yes, that's the statement I gave in 1998.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Al-Alfi, I'd like to ask you some questions related to

 3     your role --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, I'm wondering whether there is

 5     confusion here.  I'm just looking at the context, because it is my

 6     recollection that -- no, let me not -- Mr. Hedaraly, you were on your

 7     feet.  I will refrain from any comment.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  I just think that the unclear reference in the

 9     interview, I think, that is the tape did not properly capture what the

10     witness said.  So I think just for the sake of clarity he should be asked

11     if he remembers what he said then because he said did not something the

12     windows.  We don't know what it is, and since Mr. Kuzmanovic wants to

13     refer to it, I think perhaps we can ask the witness if he remembers what

14     he meant in that sentence.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

16        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, it's -- you can correct me if I'm wrong, but at

17     least of 1998, your answer on line 9 to the question of whether you could

18     see anything outside the APC was no, because the APC did not, and I am

19     assuming the word there is "have windows."  Correct?

20        A.   Well, APCs have windows, so I would not assume that they don't

21     have windows.  They have very small windows you can see through.  But if

22     you ask about seeing -- that an open area seeing, the APC was moving.

23     That's what I meant.  It was moving.  But I saw quickly that through that

24     window until it stopped, I saw some dead bodies.

25        Q.   What other word could you fit in there other than "did not" --

Page 13932

 1     other than the word "have" for sentence to make any sense?  If you can

 2     tell me?

 3        A.   Sir, if you look the overall statement, okay, although I studied

 4     in London university, there are some -- because when you talk to somebody

 5     it's different, that it can be disconnected --

 6        Q.   Sure.

 7        A.   But -- but.

 8        Q.   I understand that, Mr. Al-Alfi.  I'm not being critical of you at

 9     all, in any way --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, we can ask the witness what he said

11     at the time, whether if he remembers, what to fit in logically is not

12     something a witness -- if he doesn't remember what he said, I could give

13     you five answers to that question, all very logical.  I don't think you

14     want to hear --

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, I'll

16     challenge you -- I'll challenge you to give me five answers.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  At a later stage, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Okay, I'll move on, Your Honour.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'd like to ask you some questions generally related

20     to your job in Sector South -- or in Knin, I should say.

21             Can you describe for me what you did before Operation Storm in

22     your role.  Who did you meet with, what kind of reporting did you

23     undertake, generally, before Operation Storm?

24        A.   I was reassigned to Sector South, as we used to call it, not only

25     Knin.  Knin was our headquarters to be in charge.  And as civil affairs

Page 13933

 1     coordinator, which I told you later on the name of the post was changed

 2     to be political and humanitarian affairs coordinator.  If I'm not

 3     mistaken, I arrived in there on 9th or 10th June.  It was only one day

 4     later after an incident happened to one of our UN military at that time,

 5     a Kenyan.  He was killed.  And my job to be -- was to be, according to

 6     our structure, we had the military side and the civilian side.  The

 7     military side is led by the Sector Commander, as we call it.  Usually he

 8     is a General.  And equal to him was the civil affairs coordinator to deal

 9     with the civilian matters.

10             It was mostly civil affairs, and the word "civil affairs" is, I

11     can understand it, it is mostly used in the American system and that's

12     why it appeared first in the Vance Plan.  In other words, humanitarian,

13     providing assistance to civilians, caring about civilians, and reporting

14     also these cases to our headquarters.

15        Q.   Did you have the same methodology, Mr. Al-Alfi, in terms of daily

16     reporting that you had after Operation Storm, meaning that would you have

17     a daily report that you'd send to Zagreb?

18        A.   It depends on the situation.  Sometimes, yes.  It used to be

19     daily reporting.  Sometimes -- but a must was weekly reporting.  A must.

20     That's -- even if you report daily, you have at the end of the week to

21     summarize what you were the developments during the week and your

22     assessment, because it is daily, like, meetings which happen or incidents

23     what happened throughout that week.  But at the end of the week, we had

24     to submit what we used to call weekly report.

25        Q.   Now, in the course of a week, would you have regular meetings

Page 13934

 1     with the ARSK milicija or civilian police?

 2        A.   Police will be met by UNCIVPOL, not by me.  But with the

 3     authorities at that time, in there, don't forget, yes, I used to have but

 4     not necessarily weekly, whenever we had problems to discuss, and they had

 5     their own problems.  Everybody is aware of them.  There was also a

 6     breakdown of the system itself between Sector East and Sector South, the

 7     authorities.

 8        Q.   Now, when you -- you mentioned an UNCIVPOL would be in charge of

 9     dealing with the local police.  Were you someone who would oversee

10     UNCIVPOL or would UNCIVPOL report to you things and then you would report

11     them to Zagreb?

12        A.   No, sir.  They would copy to me.  Not report to me, and if there

13     are cases of civilians I would also ask them to go and do that job or

14     check that area.

15        Q.   So if someone came to you before Operation Storm occurred and

16     said, There are civilians in a certain village or a certain hamlet that

17     need assistance, either humanitarian or otherwise, you would then direct

18     that request to UNCIVPOL or a humanitarian organisation to fulfil that

19     request.

20        A.   First I would ask my civil affairs officer who is -- you know, we

21     had a division, we had civil affairs officers who are in charge of

22     certain areas, a division of labour.  I would ask him to go, if

23     necessary, to go with the UNCIVPOL, and if it is the information I feel

24     that it is serious, I may ask even the military to accompany them, just

25     to make sure that they are safe.

Page 13935

 1        Q.   Let's look for an example.  If there was a crime that had

 2     occurred before Operation Storm to, let's say, at that point someone who

 3     was in the Croatian minority in June of 1995, would that crime be

 4     reported to the local police?

 5        A.   Of course, yes.

 6        Q.   And would that be the similar methodology you would have taken

 7     after Operation Storm, that if you saw that a crime or crimes had

 8     occurred or potential crimes that those things should be reported to the

 9     civil police?

10        A.   Of course, yes, and not necessarily a crime.  To give you a good

11     example, at one point our headquarters received a request from the

12     Croatian government that there were two old ladies, I mentioned it in my

13     statement, two old ladies over 80, and they needed treatment in Croatia

14     proper, and I had to go and talk to authorities there and arrange until

15     they accepted even that a UN helicopter will come to the pad to carry

16     them all the way to Zagreb.  I just want you to know.  Civilian matters.

17        Q.   Is it fair to state that if there was a crime that you became

18     aware of or that someone made you aware of, that it would not be the

19     regular course or procedure for that issue not to be reported to the

20     police but to be reported to someone else?

21        A.   I could not understand --

22        Q.   It was a confusing question.  I will rephrase it.

23             It's fair to state, is it not, that the regular procedure that

24     should have been followed by anyone in UN civilian affairs that you had

25     any control over or any UNCIVPOL matter -- person, for that matter, that

Page 13936

 1     if there was a crime that occurred that you were made aware of, that it

 2     must be reported to whatever local police are there at the particular

 3     time.  Is that a fair statement?

 4        A.   Of course.  If we received such information we will inform them,

 5     and we will report it to our headquarters.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Were you aware -- you may have been asked and if you were,

 7     I'm sorry.  Were you aware of the specific structure of how the local

 8     police was organised after Operation Storm in Sector South?

 9        A.   No, sir.

10        Q.   Okay.

11        A.   Maybe our UNCIVPOL knew about it but not me personally.

12        Q.   So if a report came to you about a crime that might have occurred

13     who would you then report that to?  If you --

14        A.   You mean after or --

15        Q.   After Operation Storm.

16        A.   If a report came to me?

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   I would -- at that time we only had one power.  Okay?  If we

19     observed something or something reported to us, to convey it to the

20     headquarters and to take it with the new authorities in Knin, which is

21     General Cermak and -- or UNCIVPOL will take with the civil police.

22        Q.   So there would be instances, then, in which potentially crimes

23     that occurred were not reported to the police.  Is that fair?

24        A.   It can be.  I don't know.

25        Q.   Did you yourself, Mr. Al-Alfi, take any -- strike that.

Page 13937

 1             You yourself, Mr. Al-Alfi, did not take any measures to confirm

 2     the accuracy of the reports you submitted other than perhaps in meetings

 3     that yourself had attended.  Is that a fair statement?

 4        A.   I could not understand your question.

 5        Q.   Did you take any measures to confirm the accuracy of the

 6     reporting that was brought to you for you to submit to Zagreb?

 7        A.   Which other measures you are talking about?

 8        Q.   Did you go try to confirm some of the reports that were given to

 9     you or were you simply someone who got a report, put it in your report,

10     and passed it up to Zagreb?

11        A.   It depends on the incident, but we had no means of confirming or

12     not confirming.

13        Q.   So you were basically a pass-through person who would be getting

14     information and passing that information on to Zagreb for the most part?

15        A.   That -- correct because I depend, as I said, on my civil affairs

16     officers who go, sometimes they see and sometimes reported to them.  And

17     then come to me, I sit with them, I check it, and if I find that it is

18     worth being forwarded I do it.

19        Q.   So in other words, the reports that you wrote -- the accuracy of

20     the reports you wrote depended upon the accuracy of the information that

21     you received.  Correct?

22        A.   I trust my civil affairs officers.  And I trust the UNCIVPOL.

23        Q.   If you could go to page 105 of your transcript -- of your

24     statement, I should say, P1160.

25             Before I talk to you about this passage, and let me know when you

Page 13938

 1     found it, Mr. Al-Alfi.

 2        A.   105?

 3        Q.   Yes, page 105.

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   In this particular passage, starting at line 12, the question

 6     before your answer was that:  "Did you personally observe any person

 7     being intimidated?"  And part of your answer was:  "As a civil affairs

 8     coordinator, I rarely observed anything.  You can even say zero.  As the

 9     civil affairs coordinator, I'm in the headquarters.  I am the -- the

10     centre where all this information comes to me and then I reflect what is

11     important, what is not important."

12             It's fair to state, is it not, Mr. Al-Alfi, that the information

13     that you got was not based on personal observation.  It was based on

14     information you received?

15        A.   If you are talking about the overall situation, yes.  But there

16     were some instances, the ones I mentioned earlier, when I was on the APC,

17     yes, I observed it myself.  But if you talk about this, yes, the civil

18     affairs coordinator is to deal with the civilian or whatever authorities,

19     political, let's call it, authorities.  But it's my civil affairs

20     officers who would report to me, and this confirms what I said earlier to

21     you, that I would sit with the civil affairs officer and check.  That's

22     why if I see it not important, hearsay or something like that, I would

23     not forward it because I see that the information is not complete.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Al-Alfi, you were in Knin until when?

25        A.   Until it closed, the whole mission closed.

Page 13939

 1        Q.   So that was when, in 1996?

 2        A.   I don't recall correctly, but, yes, 1996.  And I still remember

 3     even I am the one who handed over our headquarters to the Croatian

 4     authorities.

 5        Q.   And you would agree with me, Mr. Al-Alfi, that while you were in

 6     Knin and in the surrounding areas of Sector South, you never personally

 7     observed arson.  Correct?

 8        A.   Arson?

 9        Q.   Yes, arson.

10        A.   I observed it.  I saw the houses on fire, yes, but I did not see

11     people doing it.  Who were doing it, I did not.

12        Q.   Let's go to your -- page 105 of your interview, Mr. Al-Alfi, line

13     31.

14        A.   Line?

15        Q.   31.

16        A.   31.

17        Q.   And the question is:  "Whilst you were in Knin and the

18     surrounding areas of Sector South, did you personally observe arson,

19     somebody lighting a fire to a home?"  And you had answered no.

20        A.   That's what I said now.  I confirmed it.  I said seeing somebody

21     burning a house, I did not see it, but I saw the house on fire.

22        Q.   You also said that you did not personally observe people looting

23     but you observed goods in vehicles.  Correct?

24        A.   That's correct.  There were some military and some civilian

25     vehicles.  I said it yesterday, and today I repeat it.

Page 13940

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Could we please call up 65 ter 4179.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  I believe that's D1214.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, you're correct.  Thank you.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I think it is in tab 11 of the binder for the

 5     witness.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 8        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, in the first paragraph of this document, under the

 9     section that's called "Message," the date of it is September 1st of 1995.

10     The last sentence of that first paragraph, when you're talking about

11     burning of houses and looting, you say:  "In some cases, Croatian army

12     personnel and special police forces were seen very close to the sites of

13     such incidents but taking no action to stop such activities."

14             I wanted to ask you specifically about special police forces that

15     are mentioned in this report.  Have you ever spoken with anyone in the

16     special police forces?

17        A.   Not me personally.  This is -- as I told you, the system, my

18     officers report and maybe they did speak to them or not, I'm not aware.

19        Q.   You yourself have never spoken to anybody?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Have you ever seen, yourself, the special police forces?

22        A.   Oh, yes, while they are -- but I did not talk to them.  They have

23     a special dress.  It's a special uniform.

24        Q.   What did they look like?

25        A.   I cannot describe it correctly, but it was different from what

Page 13941

 1     used to be the police.

 2        Q.   What colour?

 3        A.   I'm not sure.  It can be blue, it can be dark grey, something

 4     like that.  But I knew that.

 5        Q.   Did you know where -- where did you see them?

 6        A.   Of course, in the streets.

 7        Q.   In Knin?

 8        A.   In Knin.

 9        Q.   Can you give me any dates or places or times that you refer to

10     special police forces being close to sites of such incidents?

11        A.   I don't have specific dates, sir.

12        Q.   Or specific --

13        A.   I don't recall at this time specific dates.

14        Q.   And there are no specific dates, places or times in any of these

15     reports, that you're aware of, correct, with regard to the special

16     police?

17        A.   There might be in the reports of my colleagues who reported to

18     me, but, now, we are talking only about my own reports which are the

19     culmination of all those reports, but there might be specific details

20     there.

21        Q.   In any event, in this report there are no details?

22        A.   No, in this report there are not.

23        Q.   How often did you get outside of Knin while you were in

24     Sector South?

25        A.   What do you mean outside of Knin?

Page 13942

 1        Q.   Outside of the Knin municipality.  Did you travel to places like

 2     Obrovac, Gracac or Donji Lapac, during your time?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   How often?

 5        A.   Well, almost -- every week I have to make a tour.  If I am in

 6     charge of a sector, I have to know what is at least the situation inside

 7     the sector.

 8        Q.   Did you ever have a chance to go to Gracac?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Who did you meet with in Gracac?

11        A.   I did not meet anyone but I mean going to the areas.

12        Q.   Were you aware that the Croatian government had named as a

13     special commissioner for Gracac a man by the name of Ivan Prpic?

14        A.   I did not hear about that.

15        Q.   You had said that you met with Mr. Pasic, who was the Croatian

16     government special representative of the commissioner for Knin; correct?

17        A.   He was in Knin.  That's why I met him in Knin.

18        Q.   Okay.  But you had no such meeting with any other specific

19     government commissioner in any other area --

20        A.   Maybe my civil affairs officers did, but personally I did not.

21        Q.   With respect to your reporting, Mr. Al-Alfi, at least from the

22     reports that you have -- that had been compiled for you.  There are no

23     reports relating to, for example, Gracac or Donji Lapac?  Are you aware

24     of that?

25        A.   Well, the focus was on the Knin area in particular and what was

Page 13943

 1     going on.  There might -- and don't forget, our movement was not as easy,

 2     although under the title freedom of movement -- I mentioned it in a

 3     number of reports that freedom of movement does not mean as it is

 4     literally.

 5        Q.   Sure.  I guess I'm not talking specifically just about the first

 6     few weeks of August of 1995.  I am talking about your entire time-frame

 7     that you were in Sector South.

 8        A.   You mean before or after?

 9        Q.   After Operation Storm.

10        A.   Well, you know, after that period my -- personally my main focus

11     was how to deal.  That's why you will see even so much of the reporting

12     that immediately followed was how to deal with those who were -- who took

13     refuge in our headquarters and how to sort out this problem.

14        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, I'd like to you go to -- --

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Mr. Registrar, please call up 65 ter 4126.

16             You know what?  I'll skip that document.  Let's go to

17     65 ter 4163, please.  I'm sorry.

18             THE WITNESS:  Which number?

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the second page please.

20             THE WITNESS:  Which number is it in my folder?

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

22        Q.   I don't know if it's in your folder, Mr. Al-Alfi.  This was a

23     document --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not see it on the exhibit list presented by the

25     Prosecution.

Page 13944

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 2        Q.   It should show up on your screen, Mr. Al-Alfi.

 3        A.   Yeah.

 4        Q.   On the right is the B/C/S version, and I'll just represent to you

 5     that the cover page notes that this document came from you, in terms of

 6     being forwarded.

 7             The second page of this document, which is dated August 28th of

 8     1995, deals with a Human Rights Action Team report which described the

 9     surrender of 10 of 14 RSK soldiers still hiding in the area 12 kilometres

10     from Knin.

11             You were familiar with this incident.  Correct?

12        A.   If you see this report, and I said throughout in my testimony,

13     the Human Rights Action Teams had their direct responsibility -- as you

14     will even notice in my testimony, I said the Human Rights Action Team had

15     direct responsibility to what was established at the headquarters in

16     Zagreb.  There they established something called Human Rights Action

17     Cell, if I'm not mistaken, and I still remember even the name of the

18     person who was in charge of that cell.  Her name is Peggy Hicks, in

19     Zagreb.

20             So their reporting was direct, that's why you will notice in such

21     a report I cannot change except forward because when they report --

22     because I'm in the sector also they report -- they copy me.  They have to

23     copy me.  So if you notice, without talking about the contents, they are

24     the ones to be asked about the contents, not me.  I had to forward it

25     because I forward it to our part of the headquarters which is the civil

Page 13945

 1     affairs or the political and humanitarian affairs.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Just so I'm clear, Mr. Al-Alfi, you forwarded this report

 3     but the substance of the report itself, you had nothing to do with, and

 4     you were simply relying on the report of a Human Rights Action Team to

 5     give you the information to forward?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Irrespective of that, if you could take a look at paragraph 2 of

 8     the document.  Irrespective of that forwarding that you did, were you

 9     aware that, on the 28th of August, the RSK soldiers surrendered to a

10     platoon of Croatian special police soldiers?

11        A.   I knew about it exactly as I read it.

12        Q.   So other than reading it and hearing about it in the report, you

13     had no other independent knowledge regarding this?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Were you aware of similar surrenders and RSK soldiers, pockets of

16     them in various places throughout Sector South shortly after

17     Operation Storm?

18        A.   I don't recall correctly.  I mean, exactly, but if it -- anything

19     it will be reported either by the Human Rights Action Teams and I would

20     forward it, if it ...

21        Q.   So you have no independent knowledge?

22        A.   No.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document,

24     please.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

Page 13946

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1216.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D1216 is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 5        Q.   Mr. Al-Alfi, we had some discussion earlier on in your

 6     cross-examination about daily reporting, and I'd like to know from you --

 7     we've had a chance, obviously, to look through most, if not all, of your

 8     reports and those that you forwarded and those that you had put together

 9     from reports that were given to you.  On August 25th, 26th, 27th, and

10     28th, those are four days for which there are no daily reports, and I was

11     just wondering if you could explain to us what the reason might be that

12     there weren't daily reports for those four consecutive days.

13        A.   I cannot recall every single report I sent.  There might be.

14     Because even I heard here that not all the reports -- some of the other

15     reports were quoted and they said, It is not in your folder.  So, I don't

16     know.  I cannot recall exactly whether I reported or not, on those days.

17        Q.   Was it your practice and procedure and habit to report each day

18     following Operation Storm?

19        A.   No, it's not a practice, I mean, but because of the situation,

20     yes.

21        Q.   And as far as you know, and just so I'm perfectly clear, for

22     those four days there may be reports, there may not be reports.  You

23     simply don't know?

24        A.   I don't recall now.

25        Q.   Did you, Mr. Al-Alfi, ever have any personal contact with any

Page 13947

 1     member of the Croatian special police from the Ministry of Interior?

 2        A.   I could not get your question, sir.

 3        Q.   Sure.

 4        A.   Can you repeat it?

 5        Q.   I certainly can.  Mr. Al-Alfi, did you yourself, personally, ever

 6     have any contact with any member of the Croatian special police of the

 7     Ministry of Interior of Croatia?

 8        A.   You mean in Knin or outside of Knin?

 9        Q.   Anywhere.

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   It's fair to say that you've never met or spoke with

12     General Markac.  Correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   My statement is correct?

15        A.   That's true.  That's what I meant by yes.

16        Q.   I'd like you to refer to your transcript again -- or your

17     statement again, I'm sorry, P1160.  I'll get you a page reference in just

18     a second.  Page 108, and we're looking at line 20.

19        A.   Which one?

20        Q.   Page 108.

21        A.   Yeah.

22        Q.   Line 20.

23        A.   Yeah.

24        Q.   And the interviewer is thanking you for your time and asks you a

25     question about your voluntary participation, and I just have a question

Page 13948

 1     about your part of your answer.  You say:  "Oh, yes, and as I told you,

 2     my understanding of it is how to contribute to your success because it is

 3     also a part of my responsibility.  And after you have clarified exactly

 4     what was the purpose."

 5             Could you explain to me what you meant by being part -- having

 6     responsibility to be part of "your success"?  What does that mean?

 7        A.   Sir, to me, this phrase what I meant is by helping to you do your

 8     job.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   Okay?

11        Q.   Fair enough.

12        A.   And it's part of my responsibility because my responsibility,

13     when I was in -- as in my capacity as coordinator of the sector.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And if we could go to page 92.

16             THE WITNESS:  92.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

18        Q.   You gave a fairly long answer, Mr. Al-Alfi, and I won't get into

19     most of the answer, but for some context, I'll just generally summarize

20     what the discussion was.  The discussion was dealing with civilian and

21     political authorities in Croatia and in Zagreb, and you were speaking

22     about Mr. Cermak here.  And on line 25, you state:  "So he knew that the

23     situation turned to be not military.  It's more of a civilian and it

24     causes them embarrassment internationally, so maybe with me he had been

25     very careful and tried to show that he is forthcoming."  And that next

Page 13949

 1     line, the question is:  "What do you mean that it's more embarrassing

 2     civilian-wise?  Could you explain this for me, the purpose, the

 3     significance?"

 4             And you answer:  "Because the whole international focus and

 5     international attention was more on the civilian now.  Part of what

 6     happened with," and it's unclear, "with burning, with looting, rather

 7     than -- they're not military operations at all.  They are not talking

 8     about cease-fire.  So it's no more a military operation."

 9             And I'd just want you, if you could, to clarify your answer to

10     that, and you can tell me if I'm wrong or not.  Was it your position in

11     answering this question that the issue with burning and looting was

12     primarily a civilian issue and not a military issue?

13        A.   As far as I understand it, and I stand to be corrected, I meant

14     here the military operations are no more going on.  Now, we see burning

15     of houses.  We see -- we -- we see our reports some people found killed

16     and we talk about looting.  So these are civilian matters.  I mean, to

17     me, the situation is no more the military operation.  That means the

18     shelling all these things or fighting, has stopped.

19        Q.   And so as far as you're concerned, the issue with burning and

20     looting is something that's a civilian issue, at this point in time?

21        A.   Civilian in the sense that it is targeting civilians.  That's

22     what I meant by civilian issue.

23        Q.   And that the people who are conducting this, whether they're

24     military or civilian, it's a civilian issue to deal with?

25        A.   Well, that's my basic understanding.  But it's not for me to

Page 13950

 1     judge.  It's for legal matters to be -- to decide whether they are

 2     civilian or not.

 3        Q.   All right, Mr. Al-Alfi.  Thank you very much.  I don't have any

 4     further.

 5        A.   Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

 9        Q.   If you can go back to tab 11 in your binder, that is at D1214,

10     and you were asked some questions this morning, just now by

11     Mr. Kuzmanovic and earlier by Mr. Misetic, and I just want to make sure

12     that I understood your answers correctly.  If you can go to the last page

13     of that document, the last paragraph to which Mr. Mr. Misetic had

14     referred to.

15        A.   Mm-hm.

16        Q.   About the refugees being resettled.  Let me just find the exact

17     question you were asked.  It's at page 78 of the draft transcript:  "But

18     you were aware that the Croatian government had a desire to move people

19     and house them in the liberated areas and get them out of refugee

20     centres?"

21             You answered:  "Well, we saw some already in action."

22             And if we look at the report, the first sentence:  "Furthermore,

23     our office in Zadar reported that Croatians are being moved quickly to

24     resettle in their village and towns."

25             Can you tell the Chamber who was being resettled in terms of

Page 13951

 1     refugees, were they Croat refugees or Serb refugees?

 2        A.   What I meant here?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   In 1990/1991 when the war started, there were some Croats in

 5     these areas.  They were -- they left the area.  They turned to be

 6     refugees in what used to be called Croatia proper, not in the

 7     United Nations protected areas.  These refugees who lived all those years

 8     outside the sector were brought back.  That's what I meant.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Al-Alfi.  If I can have P363 on the screen.  You

10     don't have that in your package.  It's going to come on the screen.  And

11     I want to ask you -- while the document is being loaded I can ask you.

12     Can you tell the Court who Mr. Pitkanen was?

13        A.   According to our chain of command, he was like -- you can say my

14     direct boss in Zagreb.

15        Q.   If we can go to page 5 of that document, please.

16             This a letter --

17        A.   Which one -- which one are you talking about?

18        Q.   Of course.  The one on the screen.

19        A.   On the screen.

20        Q.   The one on the screen, the letter in front of you now on the

21     screen --

22        A.   Yes, sir.

23        Q.   -- by General Forand.  The first sentence -- it's dated

24     11 August 1995, as you can see.  The first sentence:  "During our meeting

25     yesterday, both Mr. Paavo Pitkanen and I brought to your attention," that

Page 13952

 1     is to Mr. Cermak," information gathered by UN sources concerning the

 2     widespread and systematic looting and destruction of property, crops and

 3     live stock."  Let me just pause a second for the translation.

 4             And my question for you is:  Were you present at that meeting

 5     with General Forand and Mr. Pitkanen, on the 10th of August, the day

 6     before this letter was sent?

 7        A.   I don't recall correctly but most probably, yes.  Because he's --

 8     according to the chain of command, he is my boss, Pitkanen.  So unless I

 9     had something else, I would have been there, with them, and you notice

10     one thing which is very important from this letter.  Most of the letters

11     we are dealing military to military, so most of the letters, if any,

12     would go from our headquarters, would go from General Forand to

13     General Cermak not from me.  Thank you.

14        Q.   So this would be an instance, on the 10th of August, when you met

15     General Cermak and notified him about the looting and burning but that

16     was not reflected in one of your reports that was shown to you earlier

17     today?

18             MR. KAY:  The witness said probably.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

20             MR. HEDARALY:

21        Q.   With that proviso, that would be accurate?

22        A.   That is so.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  I have no more questions, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

25             Mr. Al-Alfi, you remember the questions about the 10.000 shots

Page 13953

 1     fired in an hour.  Could you -- do you remember and could you give us an

 2     indication about the frequency of hearing impacts?  Let me try to give

 3     you guidance.

 4             Was it more like boing boing boing boing boing, or was it more

 5     like boing, boing.  Could you give us an impression of what you heard

 6     rather than asking you to judge upon the competence of other persons.  Do

 7     you remember?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  It's more of the first expression you

 9     gave, and even the boing boing boing -- from different directions.  It's

10     not only one boing.  It is all over the place, to the extent that even

11     our headquarters, which used to be just in the corner, was shaking.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you say it is was even more.  Would that

13     be baba baba baba, like that?

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, exactly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm just -- for the parties I'm just trying to

16     understand, knowing, reducing what 10.000 an hour means in a second.  I

17     try to -- rather than to seek a judgement, to seek your memory on this

18     matter.  Thank you for that answer.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, I think for the purpose of the

20     record, I don't know if this is some evidence that Your Honours wanted to

21     preserve but as to the frequency --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As far as the -- first of all, if you would

23     listen to the audio, you will know what it is.  That's one.  I think I

24     started with a frequency of two in a second, at least every bang less

25     than -- far less than a second; whereas my second example was

Page 13954

 1     approximately one bang in every, I would say, three to four seconds, but

 2     if anyone disagrees, then listen to the audio.  The reason why I did it

 3     because the average on 10.000 an hour would be two to three in a second.

 4             Thank you for your answer.

 5             Have the questions in re-direct or the questions from the Bench

 6     triggered any need to put further questions to Mr. Al-Alfi?

 7             That not being the case, Mr. Al-Alfi, I'm glad that we were able

 8     to conclude your testimony today.  I would like to thank you very much

 9     for coming to The Hague and for having answered the questions that were

10     put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip

11     home again.

12             Yes, Mr. Al-Alfi?

13             THE WITNESS:  Sir, may I have a personal request?  It is up to

14     the Court to grant me or not.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether I'm even in a position or

16     whether the Court is in a position to grant it, but tell us what your

17     request would be, then.

18             THE WITNESS:  Because General Cermak is a man I dealt with, can I

19     shake hands with him?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that is not usually not done, Mr. Al-Alfi,

21     but --

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.  I understand.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It is -- no, but the mere fact that you asked for it

24     certainly is understood by Mr. Cermak.  So to that extent, it's --

25     whether you would call that a virtual handshake or something like that, I

Page 13955

 1     do not know.  But it's on the record.  He has heard what you said.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Al-Alfi out

 4     of the courtroom.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, sir.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as tomorrow and the day after tomorrow is

 8     concerned, the Chamber knows that the courtroom will be available

 9     tomorrow in the afternoon and the Chamber would like to receive, as

10     quickly as possible, any further objections against the course which

11     would take us to tomorrow morning, tomorrow in the afternoon and Friday

12     morning.

13             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I have been able to read the third

14     statement now and assess notes made by my team on the matter.

15     Ms. Higgins will actually deal with the cross-examination, but we do not

16     anticipate it will be a long time.  It would be under 45 minutes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The other parties, could they give an

18     estimate?  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Roughly the same, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, I would say two, two and a half

22     hours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then one hour for you, two and a half hours --

24     that would mean that we'd need --

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Hour and a half, sorry.

Page 13956

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Hour and a half, yes.  That would mean that we would

 2     need two sessions.  Experience tells us that it is, although not today,

 3     that it's usually getting worse than better.  Of course the Chamber will

 4     have to decide whether or not to cancel the extra session Thursday

 5     afternoon.  Of course, another way of proceeding would be to see whether

 6     we can finish in that extra session and then not to sit on Friday, which

 7     might accommodate some of you.  Of course, the Chamber will also have to

 8     speak with the registry about it, also very practical matters like costs

 9     of cancelling, costs of adding sessions.  We'll let you know as soon as

10     possible, but I'd like to hear whether Thursday afternoon, apart from

11     preparations, causes any problems.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I do believe I'll be starting first and

13     I will be ready to go.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then at least we'll not make any further

15     efforts to see whether we can have additional time on Friday.  It might

16     even that be that we can do without Friday.

17             We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow, the 18th of

18     December, at 9.00 in the morning in this same courtroom.

19                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

21                           December, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.