Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14921

 1                           Friday, 23 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

10     IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor vs. Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Madam Registrar.

12             Mr. Hansen, I would like to remind you that you are still bound

13     by the solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of your

14     testimony.

15             Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to continue?  I would like to advise

16     the parties that the Chamber has in mind that we'll be able to conclude

17     the testimony of this witness today and there will be some time left to

18     make submissions on sedating in relation to 98 bis.

19             We have a problem with the transcript.

20                           [Technical difficulty]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that after re-booting the system,

22     it's functioning again.

23             The case was called by Madam Registrar, and we had technical

24     difficulties, and I have reminded Mr. Hansen that he is still bound by

25     the solemn declaration he gave at the beginning of his testimony.  And

Page 14922

 1     finally I invited you, Mr. Hedaraly, to resume your examination-in-chief

 2     after I had advised the parties that the Chamber expects to conclude the

 3     testimony of this witness today and that even some time would remain.

 4             That is also the reason why the Chamber has decided that we would

 5     have a less than usual lunch break in order to avoid any risk that we

 6     would have to ask Mr. Hansen to stay over the weekend.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           WITNESS:  STIG MARKER HANSEN [Resumed]

10                           Examination by Mr. Hedaraly: [Continued]

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hansen.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   We left off yesterday talking about the looting in Knin on the

14     7th and 8th of August when you left the UN camp for the first time.

15             Do you remember that discussion we had?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Let me go to your third statement, which is P1285.  That's tab 3

18     in your binder.

19             At paragraph 10, the next-to-last sentence you say:  "I remember

20     that in Knin I saw on houses -- I saw signs on houses saying something

21     like, Croat houses, do not touch."

22             Now, can you please tell the Court how many of these signs you

23     saw in Knin, whether that was a regular occurrence or just one incident?

24        A.   While I do not remember the exact number, I saw a number of

25     houses, so it was a regular occurrence, yes.

Page 14923

 1        Q.   Would you be able to provide the Trial Chamber with any estimate,

 2     just whatever you would feel comfortable as being accurate.

 3        A.   I mean, I saw them wherever I went.  I did not, or course, see

 4     them where I did not go.  And I would assume maybe 20, 50.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hansen.

 6             In the same paragraph, you are also saying that looting was

 7     committed by both military and civilian persons.

 8             Can you give the Court any information as to whether there was a

 9     sequence to the looting?

10        A.   Yes.  In the very beginning from our -- from the time we stayed

11     in the southern barracks, we could see what unfolded just outside the

12     main gate and the looting that took place at that point was conducted by

13     combat troops.  And that means up until about the 8th.  And at that time

14     we were able to leave the camp and patrolling the streets and -- and the

15     -- the urban areas and the rural areas, we noticed that the combat troop

16     had left, were replaced by a different kind of troops, and we saw also

17     police involved.

18             So from this point on, there was a -- a different dynamics of the

19     looting, and that went on until I left Knin at about the 17th, 18th.

20             I then came back in the beginning of September, and at that

21     point, a noticeable change was that a lot of civilians were involved

22     also.  So to my recollection, I see about three waves in this campaign.

23     First, the first four or five days after the Storm operation, looting

24     conducted by combat troops from about the 8th, 9th, until the 17th,

25     uniformed personnel mainly and that continued up until the 17th, and then

Page 14924

 1     when he came back also civilians were involved.

 2        Q.   I just want to clarify.  When you say uniformed personnel, are

 3     you referring to troops or to police or to both?

 4        A.   To both, sir.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let me change topics slightly and show you P830 which

 6     is in tab 6 of your binder.  And we'll come back to this document as well

 7     later, but for now I just want to focus on the second page of it, under

 8     -- at the top of the page, under item F, where it says in the last --

 9     that that item:

10             "Team Knin report that continuing restriction of movement in

11     trying to get to Benkovac and Obrovac.  They were told by the policija on

12     the check-points that they could only get to these places with the

13     written permission from General Gotovina."

14             Let me ask you:  Do you remember being prevented from going to

15     Obrovac and Benkovac on the 10th of August, the date of this report?

16        A.   Yes, we were prevented from going there at this time.

17        Q.   Let me now move to P1288 which is in tab 16 of your binder.  And

18     right before -- in the paragraph item 2(b) right before the item 3,

19     political situation.  It says -- yeah, it's on the screen as well.  It

20     says:

21             "As per order from the Croatian Ministry of Defence - and that

22     report is from 12th of September from your team - only the Generals

23     Gotovina Cermak can deal with the international organisation directly."

24             Do you remember being told this?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 14925

 1        Q.   Finally, in this sequence - just pausing the translation - and I

 2     will call up 65 ter 1045, which is at tab 51.

 3             And this is a daily report from Team Split on the 7th of August,

 4     and under item 2 it says:

 5             "We spoke about permission to go monitoring team N2 area, and he

 6     informed us that before clearance from Colonel General Gotovina we were

 7     not allowed to accomplish our tasks."

 8             Now, Mr. Hansen, based on your patrols in those times, what was

 9     your understanding of Mr. Gotovina's role and authority in the Krajina

10     after Operation Storm?

11        A.   That the General was -- was a -- a senior commanding officer, to

12     which much was referred, and for us, basically it dealt with the

13     restrictions of permissions to move around.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr, Hansen.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  If I can have 65 ter 1045 admitted into evidence.

16             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, after the assignment of exhibit

19     numbers to documents that were tendered by the Prosecution motion of 25th

20     of November 2008, the next exhibit number will be P2146, and that number

21     will be assigned to this document.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And it is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. HEDARALY:

24        Q.   Mr. Hansen, in your statement you also refer to times where you

25     were stopped at a check-point and you called General Cermak from the

Page 14926

 1     check-point, and upon calling him, restrictions of movement were lifted.

 2             Now let me show you one of those examples, and that is P1294

 3     marked for identification, and that is at tab 23 of your binder.  It's a

 4     15 September report from your team.  And at the top, section B under FOM,

 5     freedom of movement, it says on our way to Donji Lapac, restriction of

 6     movement in Otric lifted only after phone call to General Cermak."

 7             Mr. Hansen, can you tell the Court approximately how many times

 8     you were stopped at the check-point and able to get through after calling

 9     General Cermak?

10        A.   It's a bit difficult for me to remember the exact numbers.  But

11     in the very beginning we were restricted from moving around.  Then upon

12     arrival of General Cermak, I think it was in the middle of -- of August,

13     we agreed that -- or we talked about the restrictions of moving around,

14     and he agreed that we -- if we were faced with problems we could call him

15     directly and he would be of assistance, and so we did, and I would assume

16     that we did this maybe three, five times.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hansen.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could have P1294 admitted into evidence.

19     That was one of the attachments to the witness statement where there were

20     objections for late disclosure, but that that document was, in fact,

21     disclosed in March 2007.  So if we could have that into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I hear from the Defence.

23             MR. KEHOE:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the document will retain exhibit

Page 14927

 1     number P1294 but will now become an exhibit.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and is admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Hansen, on those occasions where you were stopped at

 6     check-points, did you see military vehicles going through the

 7     check-points with what appeared to be looted goods without being stopped?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   And was this a regular occurrence or an exceptional occurrence

10     when you observed this?

11        A.   No.  That was a regular occurrence.

12        Q.   If we can now go to P895 which is in tab 18.

13             Mr. Hansen, you meant General Gotovina on one occasion.  Is that

14     right?

15        A.   That is right, yes.

16        Q.   And we have the report from that date that will come up from your

17     team, dated 20 September 1995.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  I may have called up the wrong number.  P895.

19             MR. KEHOE:  You have the right number.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.  Just wait for the document to come on

21     the screen so that everyone can follow.

22             I'd like to thank Mr. Kehoe.

23        Q.   Now you talk about this meeting in item 2.  And just to confirm,

24     you were team leader K1, TL K1, that refers to yourself.  Is that right?

25        A.   That is right.

Page 14928

 1        Q.   And it says that you and the head of the RC and the deputy head

 2     of the CC met General Gotovina?

 3        A.   That is right.

 4        Q.   Then the next paragraph :

 5             "Asked about the ongoing looting, arson, and harassment.  The

 6     General's opinion is that police has to control the situation and Croatia

 7     is still a nation with a constitution, law, and order.  Any persons

 8     committing crimes will be charged.  However, a war is always followed by

 9     disasters, and now things are under control.  The General has no

10     objection for Serbs to live in Croatia.  But he regards it as a human

11     feeling to hate an enemy, who has burned, looted, and expelled one's

12     family.  The war will not be stopped by nice words of international

13     organisations [sic]."

14             Now, Mr. Hansen, what did you make of that statement from

15     Mr. Gotovina that he regards it as "a human feeling to hate an enemy who

16     has burned, looted, and expelled one's family"?

17        A.   Well, the ARSK was a Serb occupied territory of Croatia, and at

18     the time of the occupation in 1991, the majority of the Croat population

19     were expelled from that area and facing kind of harassment and burning

20     and looting, just like it happened in 1995.  Sorry, in -- yeah, in 1995.

21        Q.   And, Mr. Hansen, do you have an independent recollection of this

22     meeting with Mr. Gotovina?

23        A.   Well, today I'm not having any additional recollection apart from

24     this report, and I believe that at the time we wrote the report, it's

25     accurately reflected the deliberations of the meeting.

Page 14929

 1        Q.   Okay.  And what was your impression, based on that meeting with

 2     General Gotovina, of his authority at the time in the region?

 3        A.   Basically that he would expect civilian authorities to hold

 4     responsibility and authority for the development following the military

 5     operation.

 6        Q.   In this meeting, did you discuss with General Gotovina whether

 7     Croatian soldiers had been involved in these crimes?

 8        A.   Yeah.  We presented our -- our own observations, and that

 9     included uniformed and military personnel being part and parcel of the

10     looting.

11        Q.   And what was General Gotovina's response to that?

12        A.   Well, I can -- I can refer to the text here, and he would excuse

13     it with a human feeling of hate an enemy and, therefore, some level of

14     revenge, probably, would be accepted.

15        Q.   Did you take the reference to "any persons committing crimes will

16     be charged," did you understand that to cover both civilians and

17     soldiers?

18        A.   That is true, yeah.

19        Q.   Let me now change topics and move to -- let's keep this document.

20             You remember visiting the Plavno valley, Mr. Hansen?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   And if we go to item 4(a) at the bottom of this report on the

23     same page.  It says:  "Today we visit Plavno valley.  Situation is going

24     worse."  And there's a team comment:  "Many cars patrolling today with a

25     lot of stolen goods inside."  End comment.

Page 14930

 1             And then it says:

 2             "In each hamlet we heard a lot of complaints due to looting,

 3     shooting, killing cattle, and no police protection up to now.  Desperate

 4     people ... want to move to Serbia?"

 5             And let me show you another report, which is 65 ter 6994, that is

 6     at tab 46.  And it's another report for Team K1, and under 2 it says:

 7             "Today we visited Plavno valley.  Most of the people we met are

 8     getting more and more desperate due to the ongoing looting and

 9     harassment.  They want to leave immediately to Serbia."

10             Mr. Hansen, do you remember people in Plavno wanting to leave

11     because of these incidents?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, if I could have 65 ter 6994

14     tendered into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P2147.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  If I could now have please 65 ter 7025, which is

19     tab 42.

20        Q.   And, Mr. Hansen -- I'll just wait for the document to come up.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  Go to the third page of this document.  Under item

22     3(e), it mentions that the chief of police in Knin told team K1 that the

23     main police task is to protect people and their property and to perform

24     traffic control and that in his opinion, the state of manpower is

25     adequate and sufficient to fulfill the task by manning check-points and

Page 14931

 1     doing mobile patrols in remote areas.

 2             Then the very next paragraph under 4(a), it says that team K1

 3     heard that three houses had been set on fire, and there was -- there were

 4     looting activities as well done by both HV and civilians, and there are

 5     some car plates listed.

 6             Before I ask you my question about Plavno and the check-points,

 7     let me go to 65 ter 7027, which is tab 44.  And under 2, political

 8     situation, you write on 23 September, your team writes:

 9             "Today we saw a lot of traffic in Plavno, and for the first time

10     we noticed military police team, three people with a car plate.  The man

11     that was in charge was captain of the 72nd brigade and that that MP team

12     was patrolling.  And in Basinac which is in Plavno valley, the K1 that is

13     you and the military police team, both were witnesses of looting our

14     professional soldiers."

15             Let me just ask you first, what did you mean by professional

16     soldiers?

17        A.   Well, I would assume that they were uniformed.

18        Q.   And then you talk to these MPs and you say:

19             "We spoke with the military police, and they told us that the

20     check-point is inform about the above mentioned."

21             Now to your knowledge, Mr. Hansen, was anything done to these

22     soldiers that were looting in Plavno?

23        A.   To my knowledge, nothing was done.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Excuse me, if I could have 65 ter 7025 and 7027

25     into evidence.

Page 14932

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 2             Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 7025 will become

 4     Exhibit P2148; and 65 ter 7027 will become Exhibit P2149.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And both are admitted into evidence.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Hansen, the last major topic I want to explore with you --

 9     there will be a very short one at the end.  But the last major one is the

10     destruction, the burning that you observed and reported after Operation

11     Storm.

12             In your statement and reports, you mention a number of times

13     observing the burning of Serb homes in Sector South.  We will now go

14     through all of these incidents with you, just talk about some specifics,

15     and then I want to focus on more general aspects.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could first have 65 ter 7009 which is at

17     tab 26.

18        Q.   This is 9 August daily report.  And on the third page of that

19     report, you state:

20             "ECMM in Knin reports that the very same acts committed in Autumn

21     1991 are now being repeated.  Looting and burning of the surrounding

22     villages continue in the plain view of UN and international

23     organisations."

24             Then there is a comment.  Says:

25             "The burning of the Krajina Serb farming resources effectively

Page 14933

 1     prevents them to return in larger numbers.  Individual small farming

 2     constitutes the basic livelihood of Krajina Serbs."

 3             Mr. Hansen, did you draft this comment?

 4        A.   I cannot say for sure, but I could certainly have done it, yes.

 5        Q.   Do you agree with what is said in the comment?

 6        A.   But I totally agree with the content of the paragraph.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, if I could have 65 ter 7009 evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 9             Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2150.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P2150 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Let me now go to P935 which is at tab 8.  This is a weekly report

14     from the 13th of August.  If we could go to the bottom of the second

15     page.

16             It says all teams in the former Serb-held territory have been

17     continuously reporting that apart from the Croat minority village of

18     Podlapac and the old Croat town of Drnis, almost all towns throughout the

19     area have suffered much burning of houses.  And some of the smaller

20     villages and towns of Donji Lapac and Kistanje have had every single

21     building burnt out."

22             Mr. Hansen, during your time in Sector South, did you visit any

23     Croat villages?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Could the Court if you remember the name of the village and where

Page 14934

 1     it was in Sector South.

 2        A.   Yeah.  I -- at a few occasions I visited a small hamlet, Siveric

 3     I think the name was, about 30, 25, 30 kilometres from Knin.

 4        Q.   And did you visit this village after Operation Storm?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   Was that village destroyed?

 7        A.   No, it was not.

 8        Q.   We'll come back to Kistanje in a few seconds.  But if we move two

 9     pages further in this document, on the last page.  The last --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly the name of the small hamlet was what,

11     Mr. Hansen?

12             THE WITNESS:  I remember it as Siveric.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Than would be spelled as far as you recollect how.

14             THE WITNESS:  S-i-v-e-r-i-c.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. HEDARALY:

18        Q.   On the last page of this document, it states:

19             "Rural areas and villages have been systematically burnt and

20     looted.  Only the odd hamlet and previously Croat village remaining

21     untouched.  Knin town and immediate surroundings have suffered only

22     superficial damage and are therefore the only area where displaced

23     persons can be expected to re-establish themselves."

24             Mr. Hansen, can you tell the Court what you observed during your

25     patrols in terms of destruction, when comparing the rural areas to the

Page 14935

 1     larger towns such as Knin, Obrovac, and Benkovac?  What was the

 2     difference, if any?

 3        A.   Well, a consistent pattern developed which saw urban centres left

 4     without any structural damage, very much in -- in contrast to the rural

 5     areas which were all burned and destroyed.  So you had really a

 6     remarkable difference between destruction and preservation.

 7        Q.   And at that time, based on your observations, what did you

 8     conclude about this difference?

 9        A.   Well, it appeared as it was an outstanding difference, it

10     appeared to be a part of a wider plan, although I have never seen a plan

11     or been informed about a plan.  But it certainly turned -- in our

12     evaluation, it turned out to be a plan.

13        Q.   Let's go back to P830 which was at tab 6 of your binder.  That

14     was a 10th August daily report where there was a mention of

15     General Gotovina at a check-point.  And I said we're going to come gook

16     it, so let's go to the second page.

17             In item 4(d) there are two incidents that you report.  In

18     Kistanje you report the burning by a soldier there uniform.  And also in

19     Kosovo you report six uniformed soldiers that were seen going house to

20     house setting fires.

21             Mr. Hansen, were you present in both of those locations to

22     witness these burnings?

23        A.   Yes, I was.

24        Q.   Can you please describe for the Court what you saw, taking them

25     one at a time.  Let's start with Kistanje, and then we'll talk about what

Page 14936

 1     you saw in Kosovo.

 2        A.   Yeah, upon entering Kistanje we saw a military lorry parked in

 3     front of a grocery store.  And inside the store a uniformed person was

 4     carrying a jerry-can, and while we continued our journey, we returned

 5     some 15 minutes later, and the grocery store was -- was in flames.

 6        Q.   And can you tell the Court what you saw in Kosovo with the six

 7     uniformed soldiers.

 8        A.   Yeah.  Upon return to -- to Knin, we saw just south of the town

 9     quite a development of smoke, and we decided to go there and see what was

10     happening.  And a few kilometres south of -- of Knin, we saw quite a

11     number of farm houses being set ablaze by this group of people, which is

12     referred to in the report.

13        Q.   And how -- how was these group of farm houses being set ablaze?

14     How did you see the group of uniformed soldiers doing this?

15        A.   Well, they were -- they were moving around in -- in a jeep and --

16     well, moving from house to house and setting it ablaze.  We could see

17     that from a distance, and we even photographed it.

18        Q.   If we go to 65 ter 7015 which is at tab 32 of your binder.  This

19     is a special report of destruction in the former RSK.

20             Under item 2, tactics, it says:

21             "The main technique was performed first by HV soldiers followed

22     by returning displaced persons and refugees was looting and then burning

23     the houses.  Different measures were seen from simple burning with wood

24     and paper to large organised actions, done by regular, commanded HV units

25     with jerrycans and petrol.  The driving force behind this systematic

Page 14937

 1     devastating is assessed to be government and military orders.  70 to 80

 2     per cent of the houses are only consisting of walls and holes.  So to

 3     live in this house is only possible only after complete restoration and

 4     re-building.  The only villages, towns which were not heavily damaged

 5     were the chosen new accomodation for the Croatian displaced persons.

 6     These are Knin," as a showcase; there's a description of Vrlika, Drnis,

 7     Benkovac, Obrovac," and so on.

 8             And, Mr. Hansen, is this general description of the burning in

 9     Sector South consistent with what you observed in the course of all your

10     patrols?

11        A.   Yes, in terms of the urban/rural disparity, it certainly is a

12     scenario I can confirm, and with urban centres being saved and the rural

13     areas being torched.  I'm not so sure about the 70, 80 per cent of houses

14     consistently being destroyed.

15        Q.   What about the manner in which the burning was performed ranging

16     from simple burning with wood and paper to large organised actions done

17     by regular commanded HV units with jerrycans and petrol?

18        A.   Well, referring to my last statement, I can confirm that torching

19     was also conducted by uniformed personnel.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  MR. President, can I have 65 ter 7015 into

21     evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear no objections expressed.

23             Therefore, Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2151.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P2151 is admitted into evidence.

Page 14938

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Let me move to a slightly different topic, staying within

 3     destruction.  Let me show -- that's about the status of churches in

 4     Sector South.

 5             Let me show you a few documents quickly, and then I will ask you

 6     a few questions on that series.

 7             Let's start with P806 which is tab 4.  That's an 8 August daily

 8     report.  On the last page of this report at item B it says:

 9             "Team Knin report that, although there are many chapels

10     destroyed, the Orthodox church seems to be untouched and has a military

11     policija guard outside."

12             Then I want to go to the next tab, tab 5 which is P933.  That is

13     the report for the next day.  And on the second page you can see an a few

14     churches being mentioned, the one in Kosovo it says -- there was a sign

15     on the door saying, Do not touch, HV.  Then two days later, P934, now

16     we're at tab 7.  Page 3 again, under item B at the top of the page.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we go to the third page of this document,

18     please.

19        Q.   At B, it says that a policija guard was guarding the Orthodox

20     church next to the graveyard.

21             Then I want to show you P951, which is not in your binder, which

22     is a list of churches prepared by ECMM and their status.  Team K1 in

23     Knin, and it lists a number of churches and their status.

24             Then finally the last document before I ask you my question, is

25     65 ter 7024, which is at tab 41 which is a supplement to the 9th, to the

Page 14939

 1     report we just saw.  And it lists a number of churches and Orthodox

 2     churches, particularly that were not damaged in these towns.

 3             Now, Mr. Hansen, what was the general situation of Orthodox

 4     churches in the villages that you visited after Operation Storm?

 5        A.   They were intact and -- and as it is mentioned in some of the

 6     reports that they were even sign-posted by the HV and with the

 7     information to leave them intact and not target them.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, can I have 65 ter 7024 into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2152, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P2152 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   If we can now go to your diary, which is P1292.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that this would be the right moment to return

16     the diary, the original, to Mr. Hansen?

17             MR. HEDARALY:  I thought that was going to be done yesterday.

18     But, of course.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I saw it is still here so ...

20             Mr. Hansen.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  Feel free to refer to the original or to the

22     English portions, whichever is more convenient for my question.

23             On page 8 of the English, the entry for the 9th of August, that

24     is the day where we just saw the report where we noted the sign, Do not

25     touch, on the door of the Kosovo church.

Page 14940

 1              In the second full paragraph you write:

 2             "The Croats have been sensible enough not to touch the churches

 3     in the villages.  In some cases mine warning signs have been put up, in

 4     other places signs saying, Do not touch, Croatian army.  Clearly the

 5     units have been told to keep their hands off religious buildings, and

 6     they have followed the order.  They know that destroying churches would

 7     resinate all over the world.  Yet the churches are the only thing they

 8     have actually kept their hand off."

 9             Mr. Hansen, do you still agree with that assessment?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Next page of your diary, the entry of the 10th of August, towards

12     the bottom you say:

13             "All the churches we came across were intact, and it appears that

14     General Gotovina has issued orders to troops to keep their hands off."

15             And in your third statement at paragraph 22, you refer to this

16     specific entry in your diary, and you stated:

17             "Since all other structures were burning and it was no secret

18     that General Gotovina was the person responsible for the military

19     operations, we just assumed that it was not a coincidence that the

20     churches were left standing and that he must have specifically instructed

21     troops not to destroy or damage them."

22             Mr. Hansen, is that still your assessment today?

23        A.   That would be my assessment today also, yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             Let me move to 65 ter 7012, which is at tab 29 of your

Page 14941

 1     collection.

 2             At the bottom of the first page -- the top of the second page,

 3     under political situation, it says:

 4             "President Tudjman spokeswoman said that uncontrollable troops

 5     and civilians were responsible for these actions, and that's the

 6     methodical destruction of Krajina Serb homes.  But that the UN has called

 7     into question the sincerity of the Croatian governments appeal to

 8     civilian Serbs to stay."

 9             Mr. Hansen, at the time did ECMM share the same view as the UN on

10     this issue?

11        A.   Yes, we did.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can have 65 ter 7012 into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2153.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             If we could have P1287 on the screen.

19        Q.   That is at tab 14.  This is a weekly assessment.  If we can go to

20     the third page of that weekly assessment under humanitarian situation.

21             And it says:

22             "The burning of Serb properties and the looting is still ongoing

23     in the former sectors north and south.  Soldiers and civilians have been

24     seen laden with booty.  ECMM has logged and recorded all witnessed

25     incidents, as have a number of other international organisations.  These

Page 14942

 1     activities have been reported to the Croatian authorities who have

 2     attributed them to unruly elements, and in one case a senior HV officer

 3     was heard to reply when asked why was a professional army doing this, Why

 4     do people drink and drive?

 5              Then it states the inference from the lack of control over these

 6     elements is that the HV is largely uncontrollable, or that by their

 7     inaction the highest ranking HV officers and Croatian government

 8     officials are, in fact, condoning the activities of their soldiers and

 9     civilians.  The implications of these events are that they send a clear

10     message that Serbs are not welcome in Croatia, even if they are accepted

11     by the government.  The Croatian people will not tolerate any further

12     co-existence with a Serb minority."

13             And you touch on that briefly in your statement at paragraph 16,

14     where you -- you say that you assume that the destruction was all part of

15     a higher plan, or it is an implicit acceptance of it.

16             Before asking my question, I also want to focus on your diary on

17     this same issue which is on page 11, the entry for the 13th of August.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, that is P1292.  Actually, it's the

19     entry for the 12th of August, right above the entry for the 13th of

20     August.

21        Q.   It says:

22             "We saw yet more houses being set alight.  There is no longer any

23     doubt that this is an official policy to prevent the Serbs from moving

24     back in.  The only tragedy is that the western press doesn't have a clue

25     this is going on."

Page 14943

 1             Now, Mr. Hansen, we have seen a few conclusions in the weekly

 2     assessment and in this diary.  Can you tell the Chamber what were the

 3     facts an observations that you made that brought you to this conclusion?

 4        A.   Well, again, a systematic pattern of -- of looting of all

 5     property, the destruction of rural property, and preservation of urban

 6     appropriate, and the fact that the Serb population at this point simply

 7     were not there anymore.  And led us to the conclusion that there may have

 8     been a wider plan that supported this scenario.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hansen.  The last very short topic I want to

10     address with you is the -- the return of Serbs or, rather, the problems

11     they faced in returning.

12             The first document I want to show you is 65 ter 7021, which is at

13     tab 38 of your binder.  And it says under political situation, item 2:

14             "About two persons, a Serb man and Croat wife coming from Zagreb,

15     and they told ECMM that they recently went to Belgrade in order to bring

16     back their parents who is fled Serbia, but they couldn't.  The problem is

17     that the parents need papers to enter Croatia which can only be delivered

18     in Croatia themselves and nobody else, and according to them Croatian

19     authorities are doing this on purpose in order to prevent Serbs from

20     coming back to their houses."

21             At that time, Mr. Hansen, when you were in Sector South is that

22     something that you knew about that other Serbs told you about, the

23     problem they had in crossing the border?

24        A.   At this time it was a problem very much in the earlier stages,

25     but later on it developed to a major issue.  And the core of the issue is

Page 14944

 1     that -- that the Serb population were asked to apply for citizenship to

 2     return to Croatia.

 3        Q.   And were they allowed to apply for citizenship before coming

 4     first back to Croatia?

 5        A.   Yeah, before returning to Croatia they were supposed to apply for

 6     citizenship.  But this -- this administration was not supported by the

 7     setting up of facilities that could support the applications at that

 8     time.

 9        Q.   Mr. Hansen, and just for the record, Mr. President, what we see

10     in item 3(c), the two persons being killed in Palanka, Kuzman Pijac and

11     Dusan Savic are part of the Prosecution's clarification killings, and

12     those are victim numbers 253 and 254.  And if I can have 65 ter 7021 into

13     evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections by any of the Defence teams.

15             Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2154.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P2154 is admitted into evidence.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             If we can now go to 65 ter 7023 which is at tab 40.  On the

21     second page of this document under item 3, humanitarian situation, there

22     is some destruction mentioned, but there's also that third paragraph that

23     I want to focus on, where it says that:

24             "The Croatian government is preparing a law which allows

25     displaced persons to be accommodated in abandoned houses if the owner

Page 14945

 1     does claim his property within 30 days.  This law may open ways to

 2     illegally expropriate Serbs who fled the area."

 3             Now, Mr. Hansen, were you aware at the time that such a law was

 4     about to be passed or that was being passed?

 5        A.   No, I was not personally aware of this.

 6        Q.   At the time did you hear about such a law that was going to be --

 7     or that it was in the making?

 8        A.   Yes, we heard rumours.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  I think the witness said he didn't know anything

10     about it, so ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, he said he was not personally aware of it, and

12     I think that Mr. Hedaraly is seeking clarification what that exactly

13     means under those circumstances.

14             Did you hear about it at the time, or did you see any documents?

15     Could you explain what you meant by that you were not personally aware?

16             THE WITNESS:  By mentioning that I was not personally aware is a

17     phrase that I use because I did not see any documentation, I did not see

18     any public information about it, but we heard rumours at the time that

19     this was a law in the making, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Rumours coming from?

21             THE WITNESS:  Well, in -- there was a lot of rumours going on

22     everywhere at this time so ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So you're not able to identify who exactly spoke

24     about it under what circumstances and with what authority.

25             THE WITNESS:  No, no, I'm not.

Page 14946

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:

 4        Q.   And when it says that the law allows displaced persons to be

 5     accommodated, what you heard about that, that would be Croat displaced

 6     persons from 1991.  Is that right?

 7        A.   That is right.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, can I have 65 ter 7023 into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's 7023 has been admitted, I believe, as 2152, if

10     I'm not mistake.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  No, 2154 was 7024 on my list.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Apologies.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  No problem.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that there are no objections, Mr. Kehoe?

15             MR. KEHOE:  No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 7023.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Will become Exhibit P2155.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. HEDARALY:

20        Q.   And the last document I want to show you, Mr. Hansen, is 65 ter

21     7011, which is at tab 28 of your binder.  This is a 14 August report.  I

22     want to go -- actually, on the second page we can see under former Sector

23     North and Sector South it says:

24             "In former sectors north and south, the Croatian civilian police

25     appears to be replacing regular HV units which are retained from the

Page 14947

 1     barracks."

 2             But that's not the question I want to ask you about.  It is it on

 3     the third page, the next page, the middle, it has an announcement from

 4     the head of the Croatian government committee for the return of displaced

 5     persons, Minister Radic.  And under item B it says:  "Displaced persons

 6     can also return to free houses and flats."  And then there's a comment

 7     saying:  "Free houses and flats can be interpreted as the homes of

 8     thousands of Serbs who fled Croatia following Operation Storm."

 9             And then two paragraphs later:

10             "The systematic destruction and burning of large areas in the

11     southern part of former Sector South is also continuing.  Houses have

12     been burnt in practically every town of former Sector South (except

13     certain villages with a Croatian minority).  In some smaller villages and

14     towns, every single building has been destroyed."

15             Now my question for you refers to the earlier portion about the

16     free houses and flats.  At the time when you were in Sector South, did

17     you observe Croatian -- Croat displaced persons from 1991 moving into

18     Serb abandoned houses after Operation Storm?

19        A.   I do not recall any -- any settlement or return of Croats to

20     settle in abandoned Serb property.  We saw a lot of what I would call

21     tourism where people came to see the area -- where Croats came to see the

22     place, but they did not stay and returned to from wherever they came.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hansen.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Can I have 65 ter 7011 into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

Page 14948

 1             Therefore, Madam Registrar, that would be number ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2156.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P2156 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Whenever it appears on the transcript that I say no objections,

 5     that is not because I decided that there are no objections, but it

 6     reflects what happens in the courtroom.  That is, when looking at Defence

 7     teams from their body language, I deduce there are no objections.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             Just one quick housekeeping matter regarding exhibits.  If we can

11     have P1293 vacated.  That was the aerial photo marked by the witness.  In

12     court he added a marking and that has become P1299, I believe.  So there

13     is no more need for P1293.  We can just keep the photograph with the

14     additional marking, as opposed to keeping both.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think the original marking can be

16     clearly distinguished from the later marking which was very limited and

17     was just about a house, I think, in addition to already numbered markings

18     which were assigned Roman numbers.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  That is correct, Mr. President.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, the marked photograph is P1298.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I will check that.  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic,

23     for this correction.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.  Your Honour, at this time I would like

Page 14949

 1     the diary, P1292 to be admitted into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you had an opportunity to look at the

 3     original.  Apart from this aspect, any objections?

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Nothing further than have been presented previously.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Hedaraly ...

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, the Chamber will further consider the

 8     objections already presented by the Defence, and I think, as I said

 9     before, at the end of the -- at the conclusion of the testimony of this

10     witness, the Chamber will decide on admission.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The only remaining item

12     is --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing is now that it then -- it is uploaded

14     because it has not yet received a number when I'm --

15             MR. HEDARALY:  It received a MFI number because I was going to

16     refer to it, and that was P1292.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I must have missed that.  So it keeps the

18     status of marked for identification.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

21             The last item, Your Honour, is a few bar table documents.  I

22     sent them yesterday to counsel.  There were the three from yesterday,

23     P1295, up to and including 1297.  And there were additional ones, 65 ter

24     7022 which relates to killing number 156, and 65 ter 3532 which relates

25     to the events in Grubori, scheduled killing number 4.  The portions have

Page 14950

 1     been provided in the spreadsheet that was sent yesterday.

 2             I would move for all five of these to be admitted as well as the

 3     newspaper article, but I understand those are all bar table submissions,

 4     so it's whenever it's convenient for the Chamber.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The five documents just referred to by Mr. Hedaraly.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I have not had a chance to look at

 7     those, and certainly not in the context presented here.  I will take a

 8     look at those as quickly as possible given the fact that they are coming

 9     across as a bar table submission.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then numbers will be assigned to them and they

11     will be marked for identification.

12             Madam Registrar, the first series of three, 1295, 1296, 1297,

13     those being 65 ter numbers --

14             MR. HEDARALY:  Those are P numbers marked for identification.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  They are P numbers.  They are already --

16             MR. HEDARALY:  The last two ones are the ones that need P

17     numbers.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, 7022.  Yes, you're right.

19             Madam Registrar, 65 ter 7022 will be marked for identification

20     as ...

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2157, marked for

22     identification.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And 65 ter 3552.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2158, marked for

25     identification.

Page 14951

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             Mr. Kehoe, when could we hear from you and from other Defence

 3     counsel?

 4             MR. KEHOE:  By the beginning of the week, Your Honour, I mean --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  By the beginning of the week.

 6             MR. CAYLEY:  Mr. President, just a small error.  I think you

 7     stated 3552, and I think it's 3532, just so that we don't get confused,

 8     sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm not a doctor, but my handwriting is just as

10     bad as that from doctors.

11             Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

12             So it is 65 ter 3532 that has now been assigned P number 2158.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  This concludes the

15     Prosecution's examination for this witness.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hansen.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, I think it would be practical to have

18     the break now because otherwise we would have to stop after five minutes.

19             Are the Defence teams confident that the invitation to conclude

20     the testimony of this witness today is achievable?

21             MR. CAYLEY:  Yes, Mr. President, I will go first.  Your

22     invitation is very welcomed, and I will in fact be considerably less than

23     three hours, so I think we will be able to hold Mr. Kehoe responsible for

24     the fact that we end up with time running out at the end, but certainly I

25     think all three counsel will be finished.  I will be a matter of an hour,

Page 14952

 1     hour and a half.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I estimate that I will be one

 4     session at the most which is about an hour and a half, I believe.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber felt more or less compelled

 6     yesterday to instruct for a very short lunch break.  Now, there are two

 7     options:  Either we say we will easily deal with the matter, let's take

 8     more time for lunch.  We also could prefer to have not too late a finish

 9     today.

10             Could I hear who are the lunch freaks and who are the earlier

11     weekend freaks?

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'm an early weekend freak.

13             MR. KEHOE:  I'm a lunch freak, Judge.

14             MR. CAYLEY:  And I'm just a freak, Your Honour.  For me, I'm not

15     worried, Your Honours.  Thanks.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hansen, do you have any preference.  I don't

17     know whether you have any travel arrangements which would make it more

18     attractive for you to leave early.

19             THE WITNESS:  My key concern would be our ability to complete my

20     presence here today.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no -- there is not pressing need to rush to

22     airports or trains or --

23             THE WITNESS:  I have no preference as such.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber will finally decide this very

25     important matter, but not until after Mr. Hedaraly, the Prosecution has

Page 14953

 1     had an opportunity to express itself on the matter as well.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  The Prosecution will leave it up to the Chamber,

 3     Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  We will have a break and resume at ten

 5     minutes to 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hansen, you'll now be cross-examined by

 9     Mr. Cayley.  Mr. Cayley is counsel for Mr. Cermak.

10             Mr. Cayley, please proceed.

11             MR. CAYLEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cayley:

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hansen.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   I want to take you back very briefly to a response that you gave

16     to my learned friend Mr. Hedaraly.  When he asked you about the period

17     between 1991 and 1995, when the Krajina was in fact an occupied part of

18     Croatia, occupied by the Serbs, do you recall that evidence?

19        A.   I do, yes.

20        Q.   And I'm right in saying that after 1991 the Croatian population

21     was attacked, their property was burned and looted, and they were

22     expelled from this area of Croatia?  Is that right?

23        A.   Well, I was not there at the time, but you are right, in the

24     sense that the majority Croat population were expelled from the RSK

25     occupied areas of Croatia.

Page 14954

 1        Q.   And in August of 1995, after Knin was retaken, many of these

 2     people who been expelled returned to the Krajina.  Is that right?

 3        A.   You are right in the sense that during my time in the aftermath

 4     of the operation, I saw many civilians returning to the area not to

 5     settle at this point, but I think I called it tourism before.  So they

 6     were there to somehow, I would assume, check property to see what it was

 7     like after some years of absence.

 8        Q.   Now, Knin fell much more quickly than the Croatians expected it

 9     to.  It fell, to them, in a much quicker fashion than they had expected,

10     didn't it?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   You don't know?

13        A.   But certainly the -- we had the impression that -- that the

14     military operation succeeded in a much faster pace than originally

15     anticipated.

16        Q.   And the aftermath of the military operation to retake Knin was a

17     fairly disorganised situation.  Would that be right?

18        A.   Would be right.

19        Q.   And these Croatian civilians who were returning, these tourists

20     as you call them, were returning into this disorganisation; would that be

21     right?

22        A.   That is right.

23        Q.   And these individuals -- did you speak to any of these people,

24     the returning Croatian civilians?

25        A.   No, I did not.

Page 14955

 1        Q.   Did any of your colleagues speak to these people?

 2        A.   Not as far as I know.

 3        Q.   Would you describe them, at least the people you saw even if you

 4     didn't speak to them, that they were angry after having been absent from

 5     the region for several years?

 6        A.   Well, in one instance, I recall a person being angry because I

 7     met that person.  But apart from this, I would assume that people were

 8     simply interested in -- in having a look into an area they lived in

 9     before.

10        Q.   And these civilians that you saw returning, do you know whether

11     any of these individuals were the individuals that were, later on in the

12     month of August, involved in looting property in the Krajina?

13        A.   I would assume so.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we can now talk a little bit about

15     Mr. Cermak.  Would I be right in saying that it was your impression that

16     Mr. Cermak attached importance to a good relationship with the

17     European Community monitoring mission?  And I have an exhibit that I can

18     show to you if you want to refresh your memory from the time.

19        A.   No, I think this is an accurate description of the invitation to

20     a cooperation, and I remember an invitation that -- from General Cermak

21     that somehow invited for a level of cooperation.

22        Q.   And you regarded him as the point of contact for ECMM within

23     Knin.

24        A.   Yeah, for civilian affairs, yeah.

25        Q.   And it would be fair to say, wouldn't it, that his door was

Page 14956

 1     always open as far as can you remember to the ECMM.  If you wanted to see

 2     him, you could?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   I'm right in saying also that at some stage he tried to find you

 5     accommodation in Knin, didn't he?  I don't think he was successful, but I

 6     think he made an offer of trying to find you accommodation.

 7        A.   It is true in the sense that we -- we informed General Cermak

 8     about our difficulties in identifying a suitable place for our office,

 9     and upon this information he offered his assistance in identifying a

10     suitable place, and so following this he assigned two liaison officers to

11     assist us.

12        Q.   And did you eventually find accommodate addition or not?

13        A.   No, we were not successful.

14        Q.   Where eventually did you base your headquarters in Knin?

15        A.   Eventually we agreed with a -- with a landlord of one of the

16     monitors to turn his accommodation into an office base.

17        Q.   I want to turn to another subject matter with you, and that is

18     the title and function of General Cermak.

19             Now, in your first two statements, you refer to Mr. Cermak as the

20     military governor.  I won't show those to you; I don't think there is any

21     dispute about that with the Prosecution.

22             But I would like you to look at your statement of April of 2008,

23     and that's P1285.

24             MR. CAYLEY:  And if, please, we can have page 4 of that

25     statement.

Page 14957

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  That would be tab 3 in the -- if I don't mind --

 2             MR. CAYLEY:  No, no, please.  Thank you, that's very helpful.

 3        Q.   Now, in paragraph 15 you'll see the second sentence reads:

 4             "The first meeting occurred upon his invitation sometime in the

 5     middle of August, although I cannot be sure of the exact date.  We

 6     understood from that meeting that he was acting as the civilian

 7     governor."

 8             So in this statement you state that he is the civilian governor.

 9             Now, before I ask you any questions, I want to show you a number

10     of other ECMM documents that you've admitted into evidence.

11             MR. CAYLEY:  And if we can please have P2153.

12        Q.   I don't know what the tab is, Mr. Hansen, but certainly will you

13     see it on the screen in front of you.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  It's 29.

15             MR. CAYLEY:  Thank you.

16             And if, please, we could go to the -- the first page at the

17     bottom.

18        Q.   And you'll see there that it states that:

19             "The restriction of movement which was reported on 16 August came

20     to an end following a meeting with the commander of the operation zone,

21     General Cermak."

22             So there we see ECMM describing Mr. Cermak by another kind of

23     title.

24             MR. CAYLEY:  And if we could now go to P815.

25             And if we could go, please, to the second page of that document,

Page 14958

 1     I'm sorry, at the bottom.

 2        Q.   And this is, in fact, Mr. Hansen, a report by one of your

 3     colleagues from Denmark, Mr. Soren Liborius.  And you will see in

 4     paragraph 3 that Mr. Cermak there is described as the commander of the

 5     Knin Military District.

 6             Do you see that?  It's paragraph 3 at the bottom, Living

 7     conditions in the former Krajina.

 8        A.   All right.  Yeah.

 9        Q.   Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. CAYLEY:  If we could now please go to P1286.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cayley, what we saw on our screen, the three

14     pages, says what the military commander did.  But it does not identify

15     Mr. Cermak as such.  So with full respect for the answer of the witness,

16     what you suggest it's described there, I do not find it here.

17             MR. CAYLEY:  I accept that, Your Honour, by I think Mr. Liborius

18     actually referred to that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  But not in this portion, the name of

20     Mr. Cermak does not appear in any way.

21             MR. CAYLEY:  We can he go to P12 --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  It's just you asked the witness whether that is

23     what is described there, isn't it?  Whether Mr. Liborius describes this,

24     and I have some difficulties in understanding how the witness could find

25     that there without any further reference to Mr. Cermak.

Page 14959

 1             MR. CAYLEY:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will move to another exhibit

 2     which is clearer.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. CAYLEY:  P1286.  And can we go to the second page.  Can we

 5     move to the bottom of that page.  Yeah.

 6        Q.   And there you can see if you look at the last but one paragraph,

 7     it says comment:

 8             "The military commander and administrator of Knin,

 9     General Cermak, stated earlier that these soldiers are under his personal

10     protection."

11             Do you see that?

12        A.   Yeah, I do.

13        Q.   Now, it's only the title that I'm interested in.  And let's not

14     include because of the comments of the Presiding Judge, commander, Knin

15     Military District.  But it appears, doesn't it, from these documents that

16     there was a certain degree of either disagreement or confusion in ECMM

17     about the official title of Mr. Cermak?

18        A.   Well, from what you have presented there, it stands out that

19     there is a different -- a difference in understanding of his

20     responsibility, yeah.

21        Q.   And that was amongst your colleagues.  There was a problem in the

22     perception of what his actual function was.  You had differing views

23     amongst ECMM monitors?

24        A.   Well, I mean, I would think it's fair that from my dealings with

25     General Cermak we were having -- what we were talking to him about was in

Page 14960

 1     all instances about civilian affairs, restrictions of movement, the

 2     operation of the check-points, and, as such, well, he was in uniform and

 3     was introduced as General.

 4        Q.   Now, you say that he was in a uniform.  Did he strike you as a

 5     military kind of man or not?

 6        A.   Not really.  Not really.  A very different character than I would

 7     have thought.

 8        Q.   Would it be fair to describe him as a civilian in a uniform?

 9        A.   That would be fair, yes.

10        Q.   Now, did you know that the position of military governor did not

11     in fact exist within the Croatian governmental scheme either in the

12     military or the police or in the government generally?  Were you aware of

13     that?

14        A.   I did not, no.

15        Q.   Were you ever made aware of the fact that in fact General Cermak

16     was appointed as the commander of Knin garrison?

17        A.   No, I did not, no.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             If we could now talk a little bit about the resources that

20     General Cermak had at his disposal.

21             Were you aware that in August there were only ten individuals

22     working in his headquarters in Knin?

23        A.   I did not know about the organisation of his office.

24        Q.   Would it be fair to say that for the functions for the civilian

25     affairs that you were referring to that he had very limited resources at

Page 14961

 1     his disposal from what you could see as a military man?

 2        A.   Our impressions were very much so that he had extremely few

 3     resources at his disposal.

 4        Q.   And by that we're now talking about personnel or vehicles?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And from your observations of him functioning in Knin, would it

 7     also be fair to say that he was simply overwhelmed with claims for his

 8     time and his resources?

 9        A.   That would be a fair assessment.

10        Q.   Let's talk a little bit now about what you could observe

11     General Cermak doing, so what functions, what kinds of activities?

12             MR. CAYLEY:  And if we could please show you D299.

13        Q.   Now there are many of these documents, Mr. Hansen, but I'm only

14     going to show you a couple from the time-period when you were present in

15     Knin.

16             And here can you see that this is a request to General Forand to

17     basically recover damaged or abandoned vehicles in Knin.

18             Do you remember who General Forand was?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   And you remember him as the UNCRO south military commander?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   Do you recall seeing many abandoned and damaged vehicles in the

23     streets in Knin?

24        A.   Yeah, I do.

25             MR. CAYLEY:  If we could now please move to D298.

Page 14962

 1        Q.   And this is another request of the 8th of August to

 2     General Forand from Colonel General Cermak to help restore the water

 3     works in Knin?

 4             Do you remember at the time that there was a problem with the

 5     supply of water after Knin was retaken?

 6        A.   Yeah, there was a problem with all public utilities.

 7             MR. CAYLEY:  If we could please move to the next document, which

 8     is 2D03-004 [sic].

 9        Q.   Do you see that this is a request from Mr. Cermak to have the

10     assistance of UNCRO repairing the electricity power grid?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you recall at the time that there were problems with

13     electricity supply after the fall of Knin?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15             MR. CAYLEY:  Your Honour, if this could be an exhibit number.  I

16     don't think there should be any objections from the Prosecution.  It's

17     one of their documents.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  There is no objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit D1270.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D1270 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. CAYLEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             If we could please have 2D03-0007.

24        Q.   Now, you'll see that this is a request from Mr. Cermak of the 9th

25     of August, requesting that the area around the Knin hospital be cleared

Page 14963

 1     and asking for the provision of an excavator in order to allow the

 2     hospital to resume its work.

 3             Do you recall at the time that there was debris around the

 4     hospital that needed clearing or not?

 5        A.   Well, I remember that the general area around the hospital was

 6     impacted during the early days of the operation.

 7        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you.

 8             MR. CAYLEY:  If there's no objections from the Prosecution, Your

 9     Honour, I'd ask for that document to be admitted into evidence, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly nods that there are no objections.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1271.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. CAYLEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             And finally on this, if we could please have document 65 ter 851.

16        Q.   And here you see a decision by Mr. Cermak to charge the commander

17     of the HV materiel supplies with opening grocery stores, cafes, and cake

18     shops in Knin on the 10th of August.

19             Do you recall shops and businesses reopening, even in a limited

20     fashion at that time, Mr. Hansen?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not going to show you any other documents, but

23     we've seen from these documents the kind of work that Mr. Cermak was

24     involved in, water, electricity, re-opening shops, cleaning debris.  Was

25     that the impression that you were left with?  Was that what you saw his

Page 14964

 1     function was in Knin?

 2        A.   Yes, I can confirm that we were -- that this was our impression

 3     then, in addition to our difficulties with moving around.

 4        Q.   And we'll come to that in a moment.  But in essence he was the

 5     man responsible for essentially rebuilding its early stages, the civilian

 6     infrastructure in and around Knin so that society could get working

 7     again?

 8        A.   Yeah, I can confirm that.

 9        Q.   Now, if I could please show you P1288 --

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Sorry, Your Honour, I have just been reminded that

11     that document needs an exhibit number.  I apologise.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1272.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D1272 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. CAYLEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             If, please, Madam Registrar, we could have P1288.  And if we

18     could please go to paragraph 3.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Hansen, if you can see that document clearly on the

20     screen, and you go about a third of the way down that paragraph, you will

21     see it begins:  "Now five weeks."

22             Do you see that?  Sorry, I know it's not very clear.  It's ...

23        A.   Yeah, I do.

24        Q.   If I can just read that.

25              "Now five weeks after the operation, we still see houses set on

Page 14965

 1     fire and extensive looting is ongoing.  Also that individuals seem [sic]

 2     to select houses and simply move in.  According to our opinion, there is

 3     an police task here, and too little has been done to prevent torching,

 4     looting, and individual settlement."

 5             Now, the question I have for you is this:  At this time it was

 6     the ECMM view that the civilian police were responsible for stopping the

 7     burning and the looting that was taking place.  Yes?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Were you aware at this time of the structure of the civilian

10     police, the hierarchy, who was in charge, who the subordinates were,

11     within the Krajina area?

12        A.   Personally, I was not aware.

13        Q.   Now, if you could look, please, at P962.

14             Now this is the structure --

15             MR. CAYLEY:  If we could just go up a little bit please to show

16     the heading.

17        Q.   This is the Ministry of the Interior organisation for the Knin

18     region.  You see at the top the minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak.

19             Now, you can take it from me that Mr. Cermak does not appear in

20     that hierarchical structure at all.  I don't think there is any dispute

21     from the Prosecution on that issue.  We don't need to go through all of

22     it, although I would just ask to you look at the box at the top which has

23     the minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak in it because I have a few

24     questions related to an incident that you referred to in your statement.

25             Now, if you can please go to P1285 which is your statement.  I

Page 14966

 1     think that maybe is tab 3 in your binder.

 2             MR. CAYLEY:  Mr. Hedaraly, is it tab 3?  I'm sorry.

 3        Q.   Yeah, it's tab 3 in your binder.

 4             And if you could go to paragraph 17.

 5             Now, you'll see in the first sentence there, you say:

 6             "I don't know whether Cermak really had the power to stop [sic]

 7     looting and burning, if he was sincere when he was stating that he would

 8     try to control it."

 9             Is it fair to say that you formed the view at the time in the

10     Knin area that Mr. Cermak was not a major influential figure, that he was

11     a minor player.  Would that be fair?

12        A.   Yeah, in terms of guaranteeing law and order in this chaotic

13     time, it would be fair.

14        Q.   And you didn't believe, did you, at this time, that he had the

15     authority to stop looting in the region, did you?

16        A.   No.  We did not, and certainly his actions did not control it,

17     so ...

18        Q.   Now, let me just show you one exhibit which is D59.  And this you

19     can see is a newspaper article, and I'll just let you -- can you read

20     that all right, Mr. Hansen?

21        A.   I can.

22        Q.   Have you read it?

23        A.   I have.

24        Q.   Now, I know this is an article that was actually produced while

25     you were on probably well-earned leave back home in Denmark.  But were

Page 14967

 1     you aware that Mr. Cermak had actually publicly condemned the looting and

 2     the burning that was taking place in the Krajina?

 3        A.   No.  I have not seen this article before, but certainly in our

 4     conversations he expressed views of this kind.

 5        Q.   So when he spoke to you he basically condemned the looting and

 6     burning that was taking place in the Krajina?

 7        A.   Yeah, did he.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             If we could just very briefly talk about freedom of movement.

10     And if I can take you to Exhibit 1284.  And this, I believe, is tab 2.

11             MR. CAYLEY:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

12        Q.   And it's really so that --

13             MR. CAYLEY:  If we could go, please, I'm sorry, Madam Registrar,

14     to the second page of that document.

15             Sorry, Madam Registrar, if we could go to the next page.  My

16     apologies.

17        Q.   Now, and just so we're clear immediately where we're going,

18     Mr. Hansen, this is in fact a correction that I'd like you to make to

19     your own statement.  And you will see immediately what I mean when I show

20     you the report.

21             Now, you state in the second paragraph that you have been shown a

22     sitrep of the 17th of August.  And you say that you are the co-author of

23     that report.

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   Yeah, I do.

Page 14968

 1        Q.   And in the next paragraph:

 2             "The experiences that we the previous day were restricted from

 3     moving through the town of Vrlika in the south.  Immediately we visited

 4     the governor, Ivan Cermak and complained about restriction of movement.

 5     During our stay in his office, he did what was obviously in his power by

 6     phoning directly to the police station concerned and asked them to

 7     guarantee the ECMM and international organisations freedom of movement in

 8     that specific area?"

 9             I want you to directed your mind to the part of the sentence that

10     says "by phoning directly to the police station," if you can remember

11     that.

12             And now if we can actually look at the report itself, which is

13     P957.  And if you go to paragraph 2 of that report.  And if I think we

14     need -- in fact if you -- I'm sorry.  If we go to the bottom there, you

15     will see it's the same episode.  Do you see that?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   And you'll see that if you go to the final sentence of that

18     paragraph, it reads:

19             "The General reacted immediately by phoning the Minister of

20     Internal Affairs and asking him to contact with the civil police in Split

21     to establish coordination to avoid these accidents in the future.  He

22     told us that the officer will be punished."

23             Now, do you see the difference between your statement and what

24     you actually reported in the sense that Mr. Cermak had to call the

25     Ministry of Internal Affairs who then had to call a police station get

Page 14969

 1     ECMM some relief?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  If we could please go back to P1284 which is your

 4     statement from 1997, and that's tab 2 in your binder.  And if we could

 5     please go to page 2 of that statement.

 6             MR. CAYLEY:  The next page, please, Madam Registrar.

 7        Q.   And if you can go to the paragraph that begins:  "During our

 8     meetings with General Cermak."  And if you could please go to the second

 9     sentence which begins:  "However, he was not able to control and

10     guarantee our freedom of movement."

11             Do you see that?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   "He informed us at all times that we had necessary freedom of

14     movement.  However, meeting the police at check-points, especially in the

15     southern area, we were severely restricted in our movement.  Addressing

16     this problem to General Cermak, he appeared to do his utmost to solve

17     these problems.  But it never impacted the police concerned, and we were

18     still opposed by restriction of movement."

19             Have you finished looking that paragraph?

20        A.   I have.

21        Q.   Now, that, you are referring to the Krajina generally when you

22     make that statement.  Yes?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   But when you spoke with him, he was trying to sincerely help you,

25     wasn't he, even though he was unable to influence these restrictions of

Page 14970

 1     movement upon you?

 2        A.   Yeah, he was.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. CAYLEY:  Mr. President, I don't have any further questions

 5     for the witness.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

 7             Next one will be you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 8             Mr. Hansen, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 9     Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hansen.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   If you could please --

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'd like to call up P1283.

16        Q.   That's your statement that you gave in 1995, Mr. Hansen.

17             In that statement, in the last page, under section 6, you note

18     that:

19             "Soon after noon, the 5th of August," you're reference Knin, "we

20     saw HV special police and military police."

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   Then at P1285, paragraph 7, which is your 2008 statement, you

23     said that you left the UN camp for the first time on August 7th.

24             My question to you is:  How could you see the HV special police

25     and military police on August 5 when you were not out of the camp until

Page 14971

 1     August 7th?

 2        A.   Well, we could see events taking place just outside the perimeter

 3     of the barracks and was quite -- quite many persons moving around just

 4     outside, and from our vantage point on a balcony inside the barracks, we

 5     could see activities outside.

 6        Q.   Okay.  How do you know these were -- is there such a thing as HV

 7     special police?

 8        A.   I don't know today.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Is that something somebody told you?

10        A.   I have -- today I have no additional comment to -- to the entry

11     into the statement.

12        Q.   How were they dressed?

13        A.   I really don't know today.

14        Q.   Do you know that there is no such thing as HV special police?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   You also note military police that you saw them on August 5th.

17     How were they dressed?

18        A.   Again, I have -- I have no additional comment to this.

19        Q.   So you can't tell us how the special police or the military

20     police or the Croatian military were dressed in any way, other than

21     having a uniform on?

22        A.   No, I have no recollection of this today.

23        Q.   Is it fair to state that you're guessing that there was something

24     called the HV special police or someone told you that there was something

25     like that?

Page 14972

 1        A.   Well, the information must come from somewhere, so ...

 2        Q.   I understand that.  But you have no source for that information;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Today I cannot reveal any detailed source of this information.

 5        Q.   And you didn't give us any of that detail either in your earlier

 6     statement that you gave in December of 1995; correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  I thought that was the December 1995 statement.

11     I'm sorry.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Actually, I was referring to both December of

13     1995 statement and the 2008 statement.

14        Q.   The same is true for both statements, Mr. Hansen; correct?  You

15     can't tell what the source was for your information that there was such a

16     thing as HV special police or military police that you saw on August 5th?

17        A.   True.

18        Q.   It's fair to state, is it not, Mr. Hansen, that you do not know

19     or did not know at the time that you were in Sector South how the

20     Croatian military was organised; correct?

21        A.   That is correct.

22        Q.   You cannot tell us at that time how the Croatian civil police was

23     organised, correct, who was responsible to whom?

24        A.   In the early days of the operation, I did not recall seeing any

25     civilian police.

Page 14973

 1        Q.   I'm just asking in general, not just in the early days of the

 2     operation.

 3        A.   That's true then.

 4        Q.   And is it fair to say that you do not know how the Ministry of

 5     Interior special police was organised; correct?

 6        A.   True.

 7        Q.   And at that time you could not identify either -- either of those

 8     with any specificity by the kind of uniform they were wearing.  Is that a

 9     fair statement?

10        A.   That is fair.

11        Q.   Were you aware that the special police was not a part of the

12     Croatian army?

13        A.   No, I did not.

14        Q.   Now your job as an ECMM monitor during the entire time you were

15     in Sector South was to monitor, to observe.  And you're telling me or

16     you're telling us that the entire time you were in Sector South when you

17     were monitoring and observing, you were unaware that the special police

18     were a part of the Ministry of Interior?

19        A.   Well, I mean, I -- today I can only say that I was not aware.

20        Q.   Did you ever ask anyone for a chart or a diagram or a schematic

21     of any of the civilian military or police structures that were in place

22     after Operation Storm?

23        A.   No, I did not.

24        Q.   Why not?

25        A.   Well, I did not.

Page 14974

 1        Q.   You're accusing in your reports certain people with uniforms on

 2     that you claim are either HV special police or police or military, yet

 3     you don't know how they're organised or to whom they belong?

 4        A.   I think it will be appreciated that there was a -- the situation

 5     was framed by -- by chaos, by vacuum.  And in this kind of situation, you

 6     are not addressing questions like the organisation of a force to a

 7     commander.

 8        Q.   Well, it was a fairly large territory, correct, Sector South?

 9        A.   That is true.

10        Q.   And it was very rugged territory; correct?

11        A.   That is true.

12        Q.   Were you aware at the time of Operation Storm as a member of the

13     European Community Monitoring Mission that the special police for

14     purposes of this operation were under the command of the Main Staff of

15     the Croatian army in Zagreb?

16        A.   I did not, no.

17        Q.   Could you tell us who was in overall command of the special

18     police?

19        A.   I cannot.

20        Q.   Were you aware that at no time and under no circumstances were

21     the Ministry of Interior special police ever in Knin?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Were you aware that at no time and under no circumstances were

24     the special police ever in Obrovac, Benkovac, or Drnis?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 14975

 1        Q.   Did you ever observe the Ministry of Interior special police in a

 2     mop-up operation anywhere in Sector South?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   Do you know what the role was of the Ministry of Interior special

 5     police in conducting mop-up operations in Sector South after Operation

 6     Storm?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Now, you relied -- strike that.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  For the Court's reference, since there are many

10     references in Mr. Hansen's materials an exhibits that discuss either

11     clean-up or mop-up operations in areas in which the special police were

12     not, I'm just going to list by exhibit number the documents that set

13     forth where the special police were and at what time, so the Court can

14     have that reference rather than go through all those documents that

15     Mr. Hansen doesn't know anything about.

16             They are, in order, D543, D555, D550, P584, P583, D552, P585,

17     D554, and P621.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  I would just like to seek some clarification.

20     Mr. Kuzmanovic stated that these were references in Mr. Hansen's

21     materials an exhibits, yet those exhibit numbers I don't think were

22     tendered through Mr. Hansen.

23             So if they're general exhibits about ECMM reports, that's fine.

24     I just want to clarify that for the record.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I could spend, you know, 35 minutes going

Page 14976

 1     through all of Mr. Hansen's reports in which ge discusses where there

 2     were military or special police conducting mop-up operations and which

 3     they were not.  And we would prefer to do that, I guess we can take the

 4     time to do that, but I'm just trying to make things a little more

 5     simpler, Your Honour.  Excuse my obstruction of vision with you.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  That wasn't my question.  I was simply asking

 7     whether the exhibits that Mr. Kuzmanovic were listing were Mr. Hansen's

 8     materials or not.

 9             I have no problems with him listing some of them, all of them,

10     how many he wants.  I just want the record to be clear as to what is

11     being listed.  That's all.  I'm not trying to impede Mr. Kuzmanovic in

12     his attempt to assist the Court.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  None of those documents are ECMM documents.

14     They are P documents or D documents that refer to things like the war

15     diary of the Croatian -- Ministry of Interior special police, reports of

16     the Ministry of Interior special police, places --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's be very practical.  It's -- it seems as if we

18     are a bit the area of argument rather than in hearing testimony.  Because

19     what you say, Mr. Kuzmanovic, is where the witness, due to his lack of

20     knowledge of the structural organisation, uniforms that were worn at the

21     time, cannot assist us properly in identifying where the special police

22     were, that you say that all these documents in which the presence of the

23     military police appears should be compared, should at least be looked at

24     before we come to any conclusions.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 14977

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And this is, of course, to some extent already

 2     concluding evaluating the, I would say the rather, well, negative in the

 3     sense of not being affirmative evidence by this witness.  At the same

 4     time I do not hear Mr. Hedaraly complaining about that.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I can use an example, Your Honour, just as an

 6     example.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we take one example and just to know exactly

 8     what we are talking about, and if you do it briefly, Mr. Kuzmanovic, then

 9     we know exactly what you intend, what you expect us to do, and we have

10     one example.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I will, Your Honour.

12             We'll go to P1290, page 9.

13             If it's page 9 of the document I'm -- it's page 9 of the

14     document, not necessarily at the top it will say page 9.  The last four

15     digits are 1809 on the bottom page.  There we go.

16        Q.   It's the paragraph that begins with:  "Two houses were

17     observed ..."

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If Madam Registrar would please enlarge that,

19     just toward the bottom of the page.

20        Q.   Mr. Hansen, this document states in part:

21             "Two houses were observed burning on the Drnis-Knin road at

22     midday, 2 September.  That night, a major blaze occurred in a

23     neighbourhood of Knin at about 2100 hours.  UNMOs and other personnel who

24     went to investigate were turned back by special police, who were driving

25     the other way.  They said a restriction of movement had been implemented

Page 14978

 1     effective 200 hours."

 2             Now, Mr. Hansen, 1290 was part of your comprehensive survey

 3     report, this particular section, on the consequences of Operation Storm.

 4             Now, it's fair to state that you did not observe the special

 5     police in this section of the report; correct?

 6        A.   I did not.

 7        Q.   And you were not aware that there were no special police on the

 8     Drnis-Knin road, at least according to any documents that I have

 9     previously cited, on 2nd of September?  You have no personal knowledge

10     after that; correct?

11        A.   I have no personal knowledge of that.

12        Q.   Paragraph 6, Mr. Hansen, of P1283, which was your 1995 statement,

13     which I had referred to earlier.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could pull that up, please,

15     Madam Registrar.

16        Q.   The last page of that document, the third sentence, fourth

17     sentence.  I'd earlier asked you the question about the HV special police

18     and the military police.

19             On the third line it says:  "At the same time a mop-up operation

20     took place."

21             What do you term to be in this sentence "a mop-up operation"?

22        A.   I would -- today I would translate that into an operation looking

23     for pockets of military resistance, operations that would be looking for

24     civilians hiding in shelters, and --

25        Q.   You observed this from the top of the UN barracks throughout the

Page 14979

 1     city of Knin, that a mop-up operation was going on?

 2        A.   We were informed by -- by people who were collected and dropped

 3     at the gate of the barracks that this was in fact going on, yes.

 4        Q.   So that's not something that you saw.  That's something that you

 5     heard from someone who came to the camp?

 6        A.   That is true.

 7        Q.   And I think you told us before that at least regarding the

 8     special police, you had not observed them engaging in any kind of mop-up

 9     operation; correct?

10        A.   True.

11        Q.   Did you ever observe a mop-up operation firsthand, anywhere?

12        A.   I mean, I have no recollection of anything that is not reported

13     at the time.

14        Q.   I mean, you don't know it is done or who does it or what -- or

15     anything like that?

16        A.   Right.

17        Q.   Now your military experience, Mr. Hansen, was as an officer in

18     the Danish army in the armoured infantry; correct?

19        A.   I was an is reserve officer, yes.

20        Q.   And how long ago was that?  Are you still a reserve officer

21     today?

22        A.   I haven't served since 1991.

23        Q.   Okay.  So 1991 was the last time you were a reserve officer or

24     the last time you were a full-time officer?

25        A.   I have never been a full-time officer.

Page 14980

 1        Q.   Now, P1284 is your 1997 statement, Mr. Hansen.  And the first

 2     page of the statement, other than the cover page, the first paragraph the

 3     first full paragraph where it says:  "I am here to make a statement," the

 4     second line toward the end of that line of that particular

 5     paragraph says:  "I understand that should the individuals I can give

 6     evidence against be charged as war criminals."

 7             Who were the individuals you could give evidence against?  Did

 8     you have someone in mind at the time?

 9        A.   No, I did not.

10        Q.   Further on in this particular statement where it says:  "The

11     standard procedure."

12              "The standard procedure was that following patrols or meetings,

13     daily reports were written, and in my capacity as team leader, I was the

14     author of all these reports."

15             Now, there were days when daily reports were not written.  Is

16     that fair?

17        A.   That is true.

18        Q.   Okay.  And what was the reason that daily reports were not

19     written on certain days?

20        A.   If no activity took place on that particular day.

21        Q.   Now, toward the end of August of 1995, at least from the

22     documents that we see that are being tendered through you, there were

23     several days that did not have reports.  You were not there during that

24     time-period when some of these reports were written; correct?

25        A.   That is true.  I'm leaving the place around the 17th, as far as I

Page 14981

 1     remember.

 2        Q.   And did you not return until sometime September 2nd, I believe?

 3        A.   Yeah, if not later.

 4        Q.   Now was there any disciplinary measure taken as a result of

 5     somebody not writing a report?

 6        A.   I think it is fair to say that if activities could also include

 7     administrative issues that were not reported, reorganisation, and

 8     certainly also if you're looking for accommodation or office space, that

 9     is not an operational activity that would be reported.

10        Q.   Now in these reports if something was reported to you -- strike

11     that question.

12             When you were putting together your reports, can you describe for

13     what you say your methodology was.  Did you gather reports from several

14     people and put them into one report?  Can you explain that, please.

15        A.   People who undertook meetings or patrols would do their own

16     reports.  And then they will be submitted to the next level in the chain

17     of command, and they will be compiled into a summary report.

18        Q.   And then where would your report go?

19        A.   Depending on what I'm doing at the time of writing.  If I'm the

20     team leader, I would send my reports to the Coordination Centre.

21        Q.   Which was where?

22        A.   At this time, I think it is in Zadar.

23        Q.   And then from there would it go somewhere else?

24        A.   It would go to Zagreb.

25        Q.   Now you would -- in P1285, which is your statement of 2008, you

Page 14982

 1     further describe in paragraph 7 that:

 2             "Each patrol team had a deadline to send its daily report before

 3     a certain time in the evening."  And that "it was common procedure that

 4     everyone in the team agreed to the contents of the reports before sending

 5     it."

 6             Now, were you one that went out in the field, or were you one who

 7     stayed primarily back compiling the reports?

 8        A.   During our August activities, I was also in the field.

 9        Q.   Now what -- your field work would be you would decide to go in a

10     certain area, you would do a patrol, and you would come back and write a

11     report?

12        A.   That is true.

13        Q.   Now in paragraph 8 of this particular statement, which is the

14     next page on the screen, you return from leave on September 5th, after

15     leaving on the 17th of August.  Who was the person who took your place

16     while you were gone?

17        A.   A fellow countryman called -- by the name Soren Liborius.

18        Q.   Now, you then worked in Zagreb from the 23rd of September;

19     correct?

20        A.   Sorry?

21        Q.   You worked in Zagreb from September 23rd.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And what was your function there?

24        A.   I was operational officer.

25        Q.   Which meant?

Page 14983

 1        A.   That I would be -- find myself in the receiving end of daily

 2     reports from teams in Sector South.

 3        Q.   And what you do with those reports?  Would you summarize them --

 4        A.   I would summarize them and forward them through the chain of

 5     command.

 6        Q.   Now paragraph 16, you state in the last sentence of paragraph 16:

 7             "Since nothing was done to control the situation, we had to

 8     assume it was all part of a higher plan, or at least an implicit

 9     acceptance of it."

10             Now, other than making that conclusion, did you ever speak with

11     anyone that told you that there was a plan or there was an implicit

12     acceptance of looting and burning and harassment?

13        A.   To this -- today, I don't remember having any discussion with

14     anyone about this issue.

15        Q.   I mean, it was in fact quite the opposite.  You were being told

16     by people that things were trying to be investigated, that looting and

17     burning were trying to be stopped; correct?  I mean, they didn't say,

18     Yes, we're going to continue to loot and burn; right?

19        A.   Well, can I only refer to my own observations during patrols and

20     in August and early September that it did take place at a large-scale.

21     And irrespective of our meetings with General Gotovina or General Cermak,

22     it -- during which we informed about what we saw, it still continued.

23        Q.   Now, did you not get any information or seek any information

24     regarding people that were charged, people that were prosecuted or people

25     that were convicted of committing these acts, did you?

Page 14984

 1        A.   That is true.

 2        Q.   As a matter of fact, you don't know who or if anyone was charged,

 3     prosecuted, or convicted or the numbers of those people.  Correct?

 4        A.   That is true.

 5        Q.   Now if we go through P1300 which is a report of the 4th through

 6     the 6th of August, which is a daily monitoring activity report, in this

 7     report -- were you the author of this report, by the way?

 8        A.   No, I was not.  This report is released by the ECMM headquarters

 9     in Zagreb, and I was, at this time, in Knin.

10        Q.   So do you recognise anything in this report that you may have

11     contributed, as someone in Knin?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   You do, or you do not?  I'm sorry.

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Okay.  What section?

16        A.   Section 3, ECMM in Knin reports on 5th August.

17        Q.   Where you say:  "On 5 August the HV made significant gains."

18        A.   Yeah, that is confirmed.

19        Q.   Would that be on page ...

20        A.   On my screen I have the first page of the report, the summary

21     section.

22        Q.   Okay.  And if we -- is there something on the summary section

23     that you recognise that you had written?

24        A.   Well, it is not my wording.

25        Q.   Okay.  Why don't we go to the next page.  I'm just interested,

Page 14985

 1     Mr. Hansen, in the parts that you recall that you might have written.

 2        A.   I mean, whatever is stated in this report is a summary and

 3     extract of -- of team reports coming in.  And now, more than 13 years

 4     after, I do not recall if a particular sentence is a copy of my own

 5     wording.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'm not asking for that degree of specificity.  I'm

 7     just wondering if there is it an area of this report that you recognise

 8     that you may have contributed to, and if you can't, that's fine.  That is

 9     perfectly understandable.

10             Where did you get the information on, for example, on the second

11     page where it says:  "The HV made significant gains in a number of key

12     areas"?

13             Where did you receive that information?

14        A.   But this is it not my report, sir.

15        Q.   Okay.  So you don't know anything about that?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Why don't we go to P1290.

18             This is your report, P1290, the comprehensive survey report;

19     correct?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   On this cover page, where did you get this cover page from, this

22     map?

23        A.   I think from a newspaper.

24        Q.   So this wasn't a map that you received either from the UN

25     military observers or --

Page 14986

 1        A.   Oh, maybe the UN Military Observer, yeah.  That may be.

 2        Q.   So you just can't remember where you got it from?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   If we go to page 1 of your report, the first full page, which in

 5     the last four digits on the bottom are 1801.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we can go to the page after this,

 7     Madam Registrar.

 8             If we go to the lower third of the page.

 9        Q.   There's a paragraph that starts:  "Towards the end of July."

10             And there's a notation there where it says:

11             "1 August, Croatian radio and television reported that Gospic was

12     shelled by Serbs.  Due to restriction of movement, United Nations

13     Military Observers were unable to conduct crater analysis."

14             Whose restriction of movement are you referring to?  Is that the

15     Serbs restricting the movement to get to Gospic from Serb-controlled

16     territory?

17        A.   I don't recall that.

18        Q.   Now Gospic was a Croatian town; correct?

19        A.   That's true.

20        Q.   And it would have been shelled from Serb-occupied Croatia;

21     correct?

22        A.   I think that was the subject of the UNMO's investigation.

23        Q.   Now the Croatians certainly wouldn't forbid them to come in to

24     observe damage from Serb shelling, would they?

25        A.   I really don't know.

Page 14987

 1        Q.   Go to the next page, please.  The second paragraph starts with:

 2     "At 0500 hours."

 3             In the second sentence it says:  "HV engaged ARSK positions all

 4     along the ZOS," and I presume that is Zone of Separation; correct?

 5        A.   True.

 6        Q.   "However, during the first day, no major breakthrough was

 7     accomplished."

 8             Now where did you get the information that during the first day

 9     no major breakthrough was accomplished?  Were you aware of the break

10     through that happened in the Velebit mountains on that particular day?

11        A.   No, I was not.

12        Q.   So you weren't aware that the key location of Mali Alan was taken

13     in the Velebit mountains on the first day?

14        A.   No, I was not.

15        Q.   Later in the same paragraph it says:  "Shortly after the meeting

16     it was advised by Radio Knin that the civilian population in the Krajina

17     should evacuate."  Did you hear this radio broadcast?

18        A.   No, not personally.  I would assume I got it from -- this piece

19     of information from my interpreter.

20        Q.   And who was that?

21        A.   The interpreter that worked me -- worked with me since I came in

22     -- in May.

23        Q.   Okay.  So this is an interpreter supplied by the RSK for you?

24        A.   No.  No.  She was employed by the ECMM.

25        Q.   A person of Serbian ethnicity?

Page 14988

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This first particular paragraph, full paragraph discusses nothing

 3     about operations in the northern part of Sector South.  Is that a fair

 4     statement?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   Now, if we go to page -- the last four digits are 1806.  And the

 7     bottom paragraph.

 8             There's a section in this particular part of your report that

 9     deals with the Plavno valley.

10             Now, the second sentence says:

11             "A visit to the site revealed that the entire hamlet of Grubori

12     numbering 20 houses was ablaze."

13             Where did you get information about the number of houses?

14        A.   That was our own counting.

15        Q.   Was the ECMM there on the 25th of August?

16        A.   Well, it looked -- certainly this report somehow indicates that

17     we were there.

18        Q.   Now do you know who was there from the ECMM?

19        A.   No, I don't.  Because, personally, I was not there at the time.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'll get to that in a second.

21             It says further in the paragraph:

22             "Three panic stricken elderly women were at the location.  The

23     rest of the villagers had gone down the hill for a meeting with UN

24     personnel and had reportedly also been urged to leave by Croatian

25     military uniformed personnel."

Page 14989

 1             Now, there is no indication in this particular -- for the source

 2     of this particular information; correct?

 3        A.   That is right.

 4        Q.   Later in that paragraph at the bottom it says:

 5             "The same evening," meaning the same day, August 25th, 1995, "the

 6     HRAT returned to the site," and we'll go to the next page, "and found the

 7     bodies of two murdered individuals among the ruins."

 8             And there's a description of the victims.  The second is

 9     described as having his throat deeply slashed with a knife.

10             Where were -- what was the source of information for you here?

11        A.   I -- I don't recall today.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P2158, please.  And the second

13     page of that document.

14        Q.   P2158, Mr. Hansen, is an ECMM daily monitoring report of

15     29 August.  And the second page of this document under section 2,

16     political situation, second paragraph presents, again, a description

17     similar but not the same --

18        A.   Mm-hm.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... to the one in your report.

20     This section states:

21             "A Human Rights Action Team found the bodies of five persons who

22     had been recently killed in the village of Grubori.

23             "On 25 August one 70-year-old man was found dead with a gunshot

24     wound at the back of his skull, and another 65-year-old man had his

25     throat slit."

Page 14990

 1        A.   Yeah.

 2        Q.   Now, that is opposite from what is described in your report.

 3        A.   Yeah.  But, again, I mean, this is it not in any way personal

 4     observations, and -- and so I have -- I have no additional comment.

 5        Q.   And then in the next paragraph it says:

 6             "ECMM was informed about seven old women from the Plavno area

 7     whose houses had been burnt down in the last few days, two of them

 8     witnessed the murder of their husbands.  One was burnt alive in his house

 9     and the other had his throat slit."

10             Now, this particular report now says that two people witnessed

11     the murder occur, not that two murder victims were found.

12        A.   Mm-hm.

13        Q.   Correct?

14        A.   But again, sir, I was not even in the country at this time.

15        Q.   I understand that, but this is a document that's being tendered

16     through you, Mr. Hansen.  And you can't enlighten us any further;

17     correct?

18        A.   I cannot.  It is a report from the ECMM headquarters in Zagreb,

19     and I was in Denmark at the time.

20        Q.   Now, if we go to 65 ter 7018.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  Sorry, Mr. President.  The previous document,

22     P2157 had been MFIed as a bar table submission, not that Mr. Kuzmanovic

23     has discussed with the witness.  I don't know if we can enter it into

24     evidence.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I don't have a problem with that, Your Honour.

Page 14991

 1     It is actually P2158, if I'm not mistaken.  65 ter 3532, which is MFI

 2     P2158, I will tender that document, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You say you tender that document?

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yeah.  It's a bar table submission document,

 5     Your Honour.  We didn't have any objection to it, so ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, now I understand.  You do not object to

 7     the document to be admitted, the document which was tendered by

 8     Mr. Hedaraly.  Yes, now I understand.  I was a bit confused.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...  [Microphone not

10     activated].

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then at least P2158 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   And just to finish off this theme, Mr. Hansen, 65 ter 7018 is an

15     August 28th daily report from the ECMM.  If we look at the bottom of the

16     page, it says:

17             "On returning to UN SS," if we could enlarge that, please.  It's

18     the last -- basically, there's a dash before the word "on," which may

19     indicate a paragraph.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could have that enlarged, please,

21     Madam Registrar.

22        Q.   It says:  "On returning to UN SS," and then there's a redaction,

23     presuming that is a person, "was informed of seven old women from the

24     Plavno region who had just been brought into the camp by UNCIVPOL.  The

25     women's houses had been burned down in the last few days and two had

Page 14992

 1     witnessed the murder of their husbands.  One was burnt alive in his

 2     house; the other had his throat slit."

 3             So that's a third version of the incident that's described in

 4     your report, P1290 at pages 6 and 7; correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Now, we had a pathologist testify by the name of Dr. Clark, and

 7     the references for his testimony for the Court's benefit, are pages 14278

 8     through 14280.  And Dr. Clark, when conducting his analysis of this

 9     death, found that there was no one that had a deeply slashed throat, that

10     this comment in these reports that had been spread throughout from report

11     to report, was not accurate.  Were you aware of that?

12        A.   I was not aware of that.

13        Q.   Now, were you also aware that one of these individuals was found

14     by Dr. Clark to have been -- died of gunshot wounds, six of them?

15        A.   No, I was not.  I was not even in the country at the time.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go back to -- I'd like to tender

17     7018, Your Honour, 65 ter.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

21     Exhibit D1273.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D1273 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go back to P2158, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, I'm looking at the clock.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  One section on this document, Your Honour, and

Page 14993

 1     then it's a good time for a break.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  P2158, Madam Registrar, please.

 4             If we could go to the second page of that document.  And if we

 5     could scroll down a little.

 6        Q.   Mr. Hansen, this is a document that I had spoken to you about

 7     earlier, the second of the three descriptions of this event in Grubori,

 8     all of which have differences.

 9             If you look up at the top, where it says "above the political

10     situation section."

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could scroll up a little bit, please.

12        Q.   There's a paragraph that says:

13             "Former Sectors North and South:  Serb soldiers continue to

14     surrender in former Sector South.  Nine of them did so to the HV in the

15     Podinarje valley which is seven kilometres east of Knin under UN

16     observation.  ECMM and the UN are trying to monitor their surrender.

17     Coordination between international organisations and Croatian

18     anti-terrorist groups is expected to be established soon."

19             Now the incident in Grubori which was described below and the

20     surrender of soldiers east of Knin was going on roughly at the same time;

21     correct?

22        A.   I don't know, sir.

23        Q.   Were you aware there were pockets of Serb soldiers in areas that

24     were surrendering or being forced to surrender after Operation Storm had

25     been concluded?

Page 14994

 1        A.   I -- I will have to -- to go back to the time.  And commenting on

 2     it, I can say that I don't have any proof of evidence that they were

 3     there, but I would suspect -- suspect that -- that pockets of resistance

 4     of soldiers were left behind in a very chaotic situation so -- and

 5     therefore also justifying the mop-up operation, yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So this particular document, it discusses the surrender is

 7     an ECMM document; correct?

 8        A.   It is an ECMM headquarter report we're looking at.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, this is a good time for a break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

12             However, before we take a break I would already invite

13     Madam Usher to take Mr. Hansen out of the courtroom because we have to

14     deal with one procedural issue not in any way related, Mr. Hansen.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             We turn into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14995











11  Pages 14995-14997 redacted. Private session.















Page 14998

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Hansen, I'd like to go back to your report, P1290.

20             And the page at the top is page 12, but the number at the low --

21     bottom right is 1812.  The bottom paragraph.

22             Mr. Hansen, this report that you wrote in September of 1995 on

23     this particular section, bottom paragraph states:

24             "The wish to use the burnings as a psychological operation

25     designed to raise fear among the remaining Serb population in Sector East

Page 14999

 1     and in the western part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  From a military point

 2     of view, this is a good opportunity to use well known standard

 3     techniques:  The aim of this psy-ops is to facilitate the expected

 4     fighting for the desired terrain.  By creating an impression with the

 5     enemy that the war is merciless, that no prisoners or property will be

 6     spared.  The enemy, in this case, is likely to flee in large numbers."

 7             And before we get to the reasoning behind this paragraph, you do

 8     realize, Mr. Hansen, that when you refer to Sector East, that part of

 9     Croatia was peacefully re-integrated back into Croatia, was it not?

10        A.   I don't recall.

11        Q.   Do you recall Sector East, Vukovar, that part of Croatia,

12     boarding on the Danube with Serbia was peacefully reintegrated back into

13     Croatia?

14        A.   Oh, right.  Okay, sorry, yes.

15        Q.   Now, you told us before that you were reserve military officer

16     having completed your service in 1991.  Can you tell me, please, what

17     military or intelligence training has allowed you to make this type of

18     conclusion that you did on bottom of page 12?

19        A.   Well, I had certainly -- I was -- trained on a number of

20     occasions in intelligence, yes, I was.

21        Q.   You're not seriously telling us that burnings were used as a

22     psychological operation to raise fear among the remaining Serb population

23     in Sector East, are you?

24        A.   Well, I have no further comment to the text.

25        Q.   If we go to the same report, page 18; the last four digits on the

Page 15000

 1     bottom of the document are 1818.

 2             Before I get to that question, let me ask you one more question

 3     about that statement that you made about psychological operation.

 4             You have no documentation or you have you not talked to anyone

 5     within the Croatian military or any military that has led to you come to

 6     any evidence to base that conclusion upon; correct?

 7        A.   True.

 8        Q.   If we go back to this particular reference on page 18 at the very

 9     bottom it says:

10             "The people had been mobilized in Serbia and brought to Krajina,

11     and, as it is known, it was a great hunt after them."

12             Now was this information that people were mobilized in Serbia and

13     brought to Krajina received from your one of your contacts, Serb contacts

14     within the former Krajina?

15        A.   Honestly, today, I don't know.

16        Q.   Did you know whether people were mobilised in Serbia and brought

17     to occupied parts of Croatia to fight?

18        A.   I cannot verify this information today.

19        Q.   Now, if we go -- there's a term you had used, administrative

20     cleansing.  Maybe not necessarily in this report.  But I know I have seen

21     it in ECMM documents.

22             You know what I'm referring to, are you not?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   Okay.  As a matter of fact, there is there was a Hungarian

25     diplomat that came and was part of a tour that you gave; correct?

Page 15001

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Than was his term, administrative cleansing; correct?  Or

 3     self-ethnic cleansing?

 4        A.   I don't recall if he said that.

 5        Q.   When you mean administrative cleansing, did you meaning something

 6     to the effect that the Serbs themselves administratively left.  Is that

 7     what you mean by administrative ethnic cleansing?

 8        A.   As far as I recall today the administrative cleansing would refer

 9     to the complication associated with the claim of property and with the

10     application of citizenship.

11        Q.   After people had left?

12        A.   Yeah.

13        Q.   Now you realize that few, if any, of those people had any

14     personal identification documents?

15        A.   That is true.

16        Q.   Now, if we go to P934, please.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sorry, before we leave your report, 1290, you

18     had an annex to that document, Annex 3, and I wanted to ask you some

19     questions about that.  We don't necessarily have to put it up.  But

20     Annex 3 was the list that you were provided of damage, of property damage

21     to villages and towns in Sector South; correct?  Do you recall?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Now as with the reporting on various ECMM reports on Grubori,

24     there are other incidents specifically in your comprehensive survey where

25     you to rely on other reports; correct?

Page 15002

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Now, an example in Annex 2 is you reliance on the UNMO survey of

 3     damages; correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   That was something that the UNMOs gave you to, and you simply

 6     included it in your report; correct?

 7        A.   That is true.

 8        Q.   Now you do not know what the methodology was used that they

 9     employed or how they categorised homes, for example, based on damage;

10     correct?

11        A.   That is absolutely correct.

12        Q.   And you don't know how they accounted for Croatian villages

13     versus Serbian villages; correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And it's fair to say that you cannot attest to the accuracy of

16     that particular survey; correct?

17        A.   I -- the reason it is included is not because of any reference to

18     accuracy but more an indication of the level of destruction.  So the

19     accuracy of the numbers are not the most important in -- in this

20     attachment.

21        Q.   Well, would you agree with me that if there was, for example, a

22     village that had listed 20 buildings in it before Operation Storm and 18

23     of those buildings were listed as partially damages and then 20 were

24     listed as totally damaged, that is it not accurate.

25        A.   That is true.

Page 15003

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P934, the second page, please.

 2     Under Section C.  And just for reference, this is an August 11th, 1995,

 3     ECMM report.  You were not in Sector South on the 11th of August;

 4     correct.

 5        A.   I was there.

 6        Q.   Oh, you were there?

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   I thought you had said had you left on the --

 9        A.   On the 17th.

10        Q.   17th.  I'm sorry, you are correct.  Section C under team Knin, it

11     describes 70 soldiers in Gracac and around the same number who said they

12     were from the 150th brigade in Medak.  Now were you aware at any point

13     time that as of the date of this report, 11th of August, 1995, that

14     anyone -- that any special police forces were located in Gracac?

15        A.   No.  And this report is from N3, and I was not a member of that

16     team.

17        Q.   So the fair answer to that question is you don't know.

18        A.   Absolutely.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the next page, section G.

20        Q.   There's another team Knin N2.  Were you part of N2?

21        A.   I was a part of that team, yeah.

22        Q.   There's a comment here that says:

23             "The Catholic church in Vrlika recently destroyed with Serb

24     graffiti on the walls."

25             There is no indication of when that was put on the walls;

Page 15004

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Yet in the common section it says:

 4             "Team had interviewed Serb refugees in the camp who were from

 5     that area, and they said that the church was untouched when they left

 6     after the shelling had started.  They believed that the damage may have

 7     been done by the HV in order to put the blame on the Serbs."

 8             And then the comment says:

 9             "This seems fairly sensible as it is unlikely that people fleeing

10     for their lives would stop to write nasty messages on a wall."

11             Now how could you come to the conclusion that a recently

12     destroyed church Serb graffiti on the walls was plausibly destroyed by

13     the Croatian military?

14        A.   Today I have no further comment.  I mean, the general picture

15     when it comes to churches is that they were left standing and untouched

16     and bypassed throughout the operation, and this a single event, so ...

17        Q.   Were you aware that in the middle of Knin, St. Anthony's church

18     was significantly damaged?

19        A.   Absolutely.

20        Q.   So -- and that's a catholic church; right?

21        A.   That's a catholic church.  But not during my presence there.

22        Q.   You were aware that during -- before operation storm that it was

23     routine practice for the Serbian ARSK forces to destroy Catholic

24     churches?

25        A.   I saw destruction, yes.

Page 15005

 1        Q.   And yet in this particular passage, you find plausible that the

 2     Croatian military destroyed their own Catholic church?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   You don't find that plausible?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   In the next section under section 4, discussing team Gospic in a

 7     field full of cattle.  There is a statement:

 8             "There is evidence of the systematic rounding up and shipment of

 9     livestock from all over the former Krajina.  Their destination is

10     unknown, but it is unlikely they are being saved for reclamation by the

11     Serb population which are officially being urged to return."

12             How do you know that it was the Croatian government -- strike

13     that.

14             Now, what other method did the Croatian government have that you

15     could tell us to reserve livestock that had been abandoned in the flight

16     of the Serb population?  If there is no Serb population to take care of

17     the livestock, are they just supposed to stay there in the fields?

18        A.   No.  I mean, I think it was -- I thought, and I still think, that

19     it was a sensible thing to collect the cattle in order to save guard it

20     somewhere.

21        Q.   So rather than being something that was nefarious or something

22     that was done to discourage the Serbs from returning, it was something

23     done to save the cattle?

24        A.   Yeah.  I mean, if the cattle is left without any observation, I

25     mean, it's a sensible thing to do.

Page 15006

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the next -- P935.  It's a 13th

 2     of August ECMM report.

 3        Q.   Again, there's discussion here under political assessment.  Could

 4     you tell me, were an author of this report?

 5        A.   I may have been.  It could be.  I'm not totally sure.

 6        Q.   I'm not going ask you who else might have been.  I just want to

 7     know --

 8        A.   I could easily have been one of the authors.

 9        Q.   Okay.  The first paragraph describes the mayor of Knin:

10             "A Serbian man who has no history, as far as we can tell, of any

11     kind in politics.  He is expected to be a puppet for the controlling

12     Croatian authorities and purely a figurehead for the world to see how

13     'well' the remaining Serbs are being treated by Croats?"

14             What is the basis for that statement?

15        A.   I can certainly say it is not my wording and --

16        Q.   Did you have the feeling that this man was a puppet?

17        A.   And we are talking about who?

18        Q.   The mayor of Knin.  That's --

19        A.   And who is that at this time?

20        Q.   It's not listed in this particular --

21        A.   I'm not sure there was a mayor.

22        Q.   Was it the government representative of Knin?

23        A.   Yeah.  Because as far as I remember, there is no mayor at this

24     particular point in time.  That would have been General Cermak.  No, he

25     arrived evening later.

Page 15007

 1        Q.   Below it is listed as Petar Pasic at the bottom of this

 2     particular document, if we could scroll up.

 3        A.   Okay.

 4        Q.   You had no reason to believe that he was a puppet, was he?

 5        A.   To this very day, I mean, I don't -- I cannot comment on that

 6     today.

 7        Q.   Now at the bottom of this particular document, there's also a

 8     request for assistance of ECMM in persuading the remaining ARSK troops

 9     hiding in the hills around Medak to give themselves up.

10             Do you recall that?

11        A.   No, I don't.

12        Q.   At least there's another comment here as of the 13th August of

13     1995 that someone, specifically Mr. Kasumovic has reported that there are

14     ARSK troops hiding in the hills; correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Now, if question go to 2 on the next page, military assessment.

17     The middle of that paragraph, the first paragraph under military

18     assessment.  Actually, we can go a little farther up than that.  Fifth

19     line at the very end of that line, the sentence begins:  "It is ..."

20              "It is assessed that the swiftness of the success of

21     Operation Storm caught not only the HV by surprise but also the civilian

22     authorities who were supposed to go in afterwards and take over.

23     Consequently as the 'capital' fell in 36 hours instead of the expected

24     week, the military and civilian police who were next to arrive did so

25     late.  The civilian authorities were also caught on the hop and have not

Page 15008

 1     been able to bring their move forward at all."

 2             Now, I'd like to ask you a question of what is meant by "the

 3     capital fell in 36 hours instead of the expected week"?  Was that an

 4     assessment that you made, that you thought it would take a week to get to

 5     Knin?

 6        A.   I mean, I was absolutely not the author of this paragraph.  For

 7     me, the importance of -- of -- of this text lie in the fact that -- that

 8     Knin was taken within 36 hours.  And my assessment is that it appeared to

 9     be a surprise to both the HV and the civilian authorities.

10        Q.   And what was it a surprise to the ECMM as well?

11        A.   It was a surprise to me, yes.

12        Q.   Now if we go to P2150.  And if we go to the second page of P2150.

13     This is an August 9th, 1995, ECMM report.  And on the bottom of the

14     second page, under political situation, there is a significant redaction

15     about presumably names or ranks of people, and it states:

16             "Blank met with blank, who stated that the number of Croatian

17     fatalities during Operation Storm was 118, with 40 in the Sisak area.

18     Blank added that the Croatian authorities had anticipated 5 to 6.000

19     losses by calculating 5 to 6 per cent of the 100.000 HV troops.

20     Furthermore, blank expected the initial numbers to increase due to the

21     'cleaning' of the mountainous areas."

22             Now that tells me, and let me ask you if it tells you, that the

23     Croatian military, along with the assessment made in the previous exhibit

24     which was P935, certainly did not expect to take Knin in 36 hours and was

25     prepared for losses of up to 6.000 of its troops.

Page 15009

 1        A.   Yeah.

 2        Q.   So it is pretty clear, at least from their own assessment, that

 3     they thought this was going to be much more difficult than it ended up

 4     being?

 5        A.   Yeah.  We all thought that.

 6        Q.   You also thought that?

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   So it is not unexpected that they wouldn't be ready after taking

 9     Knin so quickly?

10        A.   No.  That is -- I think it is a surprise to everybody.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'd like to go to the next page of P -- I'm

12     sorry.  If we go back to P935.  I'm done with P2150.  The same page we

13     were on P935 which was the second page.  1079 are the last four digits.

14        Q.   And, again, for reference, it's Sunday, 13th of August, 1995,

15     ECMM report.

16             Again, another mention under military assessment and analysis at

17     the bottom of the first paragraph about "the presence in the hills of

18     ARSK troops who cause trouble at night."

19             Again, noting that there are pockets of resistance; correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   If we go to the next page, which is 1080, under humanitarian

22     assessment.

23             The first sentence -- the first two sentences of that assessment

24     say:

25             "A well-planned and carefully executed clean-up operation has

Page 15010

 1     been in action through [sic] the week.  The Croatian army and police have

 2     swept up through the former RSK, removing evidence."

 3             The first thing I'd like to ask you is what are you talking about

 4     when you say "a well-planned and carefully executed clean-up operation"?

 5     What is that?

 6        A.   Sir, this is not my report.

 7        Q.   I understand that.  But it is being tendered --  or it was being

 8     referenced through you, Mr. Hansen.  Can you tell us anything or shed any

 9     light on this?

10        A.   I mean, I'll have to translate it, and the way I'll translate

11     such a sentence would be that -- that the HV would be looking for pockets

12     of resistance and control of the territory.

13        Q.   And what -- what is meant by the term "removing evidence"?

14     Evidence of what?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   I'm sorry, did you say --

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   The next page, 1081.  It says in the middle of that page where

19     the paragraph says:  "Rural areas."  The second sentence says:  "Knin

20     town and immediate surroundings have suffered only superficial damage."

21             What is that based on, a review of the damage situation in the

22     town?

23        A.   Yeah, from a personal point of view, in the assessment on the

24     damage in Knin town itself, would be initiated by my own fact finding.

25        Q.   And it was that it was superficial?

Page 15011

 1        A.   Well, I think the correct term would be that it is not

 2     structural.

 3        Q.   The report says superficial, though.  Do you know what that

 4     means?

 5        A.   No, I don't.  Again, I did not write this report.

 6        Q.   Now, were you aware of what the civilian casualties were in Knin

 7     as a result of the shelling on the first two days of --

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... Operation Storm?

10        A.   No, I don't know.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P895, please.

12        Q.   Now I'm going preface my question relating to P985 by a comment

13     that you had made, I think it was both in direct examination and in the

14     answers to questions from my colleague, Mr. Cayley.

15             You had said that --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that you misspoke and that we're still

17     talking about 895, or ...

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  If I said 985 it is a

19     mistake.  It is 895.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  895.  Thank you.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It is my temporary dyslexia.  895.  Thank you,

22     Your Honour.

23        Q.   You had mentioned that when you saw presumably displaced persons,

24     Croatian displaced persons come back, that they came back as tourists.

25     Describe for me what you meant by that.  Were they coming back to see the

Page 15012

 1     state and shape of their residences?

 2        A.   Well, in order for me to say that, I would have to make a direct

 3     connection between a person and -- and his ownership of a certain

 4     property, and I was not able to do that.  But in general terms we saw

 5     many, many civilians or -- and Croats coming back to -- well, to see the

 6     situation for themselves.

 7        Q.   Not just Croats but persons of Serb ethnicity as well?

 8        A.   Well, I mean there is no distinction.  From a distance, a Serb

 9     and a Croat look alike.

10        Q.   My question relating to this issue is -- in this report under

11     political situation, 20th September, 1995, where it describes the

12     revitalisation of Lovinac, 50 to 60 native-born persons are already in

13     the village trying to repair their former homes.

14             Now, did you -- were you under the -- did you know that that town

15     had been levelled after 1991, Lovinac?

16        A.   I mean, perhaps at the time I was aware of it.  Today, I don't

17     recall it.

18        Q.   I mean, these people who would be coming back, according to this

19     report, repairing their former homes would not be tourists; correct?

20             And as a matter of fact, in annex of damages to villages, Lovinac

21     is not a place that is not included; did you know that?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   There is also mention here, There is a police station manned by

24     special police.

25             Now can you tell me anything specific about what that means?

Page 15013

 1        A.   No.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P1288, please.  This is a

 3     September 12th, 1995, ECMM daily report.

 4        Q.   And the question I want to ask you relates to a military

 5     situation where you state in the second line -- or where it is stated in

 6     the second line:  "Suspected cleaning operation, ongoing in the north of

 7     the sector around Seganovac by special police."

 8             Were you there to observe that at all?

 9        A.   No, I was not there.

10        Q.   Do you know what they mean "suspected cleaning operation"?

11        A.   No, I don't.

12        Q.   Would you know why someone say it was suspected?

13        A.   No, that would be sheer speculation.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P936, please.

15        Q.   This is a report listed with you listed as the author,

16     Mr. Hansen, dated August 16th of 1995.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the second page.

18        Q.   Under Benkovac it's listed:  "We passed three check-points on the

19     entrance roads to the town, which has a seemingly [sic] little damage?"

20             Now did you know that Benkovac was one of the towns that was

21     attacked with artillery on the 4th of August, 1995?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And there is no indication of Benkovac being torched or looted,

24     is there?

25        A.   No.  Just like the other urban centres.

Page 15014

 1        Q.   Under the next section where it says Tomasovica Stanovi, it says:

 2             "This small village was not damaged but deserted except two old

 3     people who were very hungry.  They don't know where the other people are,

 4     even their children are gone.  They have no place to go and are anxious

 5     to be killed."

 6             Now, that is clearly a mistake, is it not?  Those people weren't

 7     anxious to be killed, were they?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   That is simply just a missing syntax; correct?

10        A.   I think so.

11        Q.   Further on down under humanitarian and human rights issue, toward

12     the middle of the page, it says:  "The extensive cleaning operation after

13     Storm makes it hard to witness HRV."

14             Now, this is a document in which you at author, and you use the

15     term "cleaning operation."  Can you tell us, please, what you mean by

16     that.

17        A.   I mean, again, it is variations over the same theme, and it's

18     about the HV looking for pockets of resistance, cleaning up the area,

19     controlling the area, and -- which you would expect any army in the

20     offensive to do.

21        Q.   Okay.  I mean, there is no indication here that they're hiding,

22     doing anything incorrect or wrong; correct?

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   Now, you note here "many teams fear the mine risk, and so far

25     only main roads have been patrolled by HRAT."

Page 15015

 1             Now, mines were a significant hazard to movement, correct,

 2     especially in areas that were off the main roads?

 3        A.   I think what is revealed in this text is that there is no hard

 4     evidence of presence of mines, but the speculation into the presence of

 5     mines prevented people going to particular sites.

 6        Q.   Were aware that after Cambodia and Bosnia, Croatia was the most

 7     mined country in the world?

 8        A.   I was certainly aware of it in other places, yes.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to P1287, please.  Your Honour,

10     this subject area is the last subject area I will cover.  It is hopefully

11     not too extensive, but I will do my best.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Hopefully in the next 15 minutes I'll be done,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then we will have to take a break first.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Okay.  We'll break, if that's all right with

17     Your Honour.  Because this is a new subject that teals with this report,

18     and after I'm done with this report, I'm done with my cross-examination.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That means just for me to do some -- to give

20     an assessment.  So that is 20 more minutes for you, then for ...

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I have about two sessions.

22     Under three hours.  I tried to cut it down, but about three hours, I

23     would say.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  20 minutes.

25             Then, Mr. Hedaraly, how much time you would need?

Page 15016

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Up to now, probably only five to ten minutes, but,

 2     of course, it is going to depend on the Gotovina cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because I -- in the difficult choice between

 4     the lunch freaks and the early weekend freaks, the Chamber thought it

 5     wise to give an additional 15 minutes, but Mr. Kehoe, if you're not fully

 6     confident to stay strictly within your time limits, it will cut off from

 7     your lunchtime.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I'll stay within those time-limits, Your Honour.

 9     Actually, I'm confident I'll stay within that.  I think Mr. Kuzmanovic

10     covered some things that I'm going cut out.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So you might even need less than three hours.

12             MR. KEHOE:  I never like to see it [indiscernible], Judge, but it

13     is possible.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we earlier had some confusion about who

15     tendered what document and whether it was page 68, line 1, included

16     Mr. Misetic without any proper reason to add to the confusion.  That is

17     clearly a mistake.  The document was tendered by Mr. Hedaraly.

18             Then the Chamber would need -- one more question:  How time did

19     you need to give a respond to the five questions?  The first question

20     being answered already by kind of a schedule for the witnesses?

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, we have elected Mr. Cayley to speak

22     for us all on this issue.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cayley, could you speak for you all, please.

24             MR. CAYLEY:  Your Honour, I have actually just this moment sent

25     an e-mail to the Prosecution and your Senior Legal Officer.  So we can

Page 15017

 1     also make oral submissions in addition, but we've answered the questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have a long lunch break anyhow, so we can

 3     look at it.

 4             Then we take a break now, Mr. Hansen, and we'll resume at 2.30.

 5                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.44 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Hansen, I found the reference regarding the term self-ethnic

10     cleansing in P1289 which is September 12th, 1995, report that you had

11     offered, ECMM report.  And it was regarding the Hungarian ambassador,

12     Mr. Cermati.  And he asked questions, Why did the Serbs flee in front of

13     the CA, Croatian army?  And then it's noted after the question, he,

14     meaning the ambassador, called it "self ethnic cleansing."

15             Do you know what he meant by that term that you put in your

16     report?

17        A.   No, sir.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Could I ask Mr. Registrar to please call up 65

19     ter 7007.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

22        Q.   This particular document, 65 ter 7007, is a weekly assessment,

23     31 July to 3 August 1995.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to page -- on the right-hand

25     side, it's R026-4155.  It's the third page of that document.

Page 15018

 1        Q.   Under humanitarian situation, at this particular time between the

 2     31st of July and the 3rd of August 1995, you were in Knin, correct,

 3     Mr. Hansen?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   In this notation under humanitarian situation, there's a total of

 6     18.000 displaced persons and refugees in Sisak Zupanija and 16.000 in

 7     Karlovac Zupanija, and 15.000 in the town of Ogulin, for a total of

 8     37.500 displaced persons.  Those are all Croatian displaced persons;

 9     correct?

10        A.   I don't know, sir.

11        Q.   Do you know that Sisak Zupanija, Karlovac Zupanija, and Ogulin

12     were Croatian towns?

13        A.   Right.  But these locations are totally out of -- outside the

14     area of my responsibility.

15        Q.   It says here that:

16             "RC Knin reported that RSK would not hinder the UNHCR delivery of

17     humanitarian aid to the Bihac pocket within the same section under

18     humanitarian situation."

19             Is it your understanding that you -- you can't tell us whether

20     these displaced persons are Croats?

21        A.   I mean, I can certainly say that it makes a lot of sense if they

22     are, but, again, I mean, I'm -- it's information that has to do with the

23     area that is total outside my area of responsibility.

24        Q.   Back on that subject of self-ethnic cleansing, if we could go to

25     P --

Page 15019

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  If we could tender 65

 2     ter 7007.  I forgot to do that?

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is document shall be given

 6     Exhibit D1274.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D1274 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             On page 14 of P1290, if I could ask Mr. Registrar to please call

11     that up, the last four numbers on the bottom right-hand corner of the

12     page are 1814.

13        Q.   While we're waiting to get to that -- oh, there it is.

14             Mr. Hansen, in your own report there's a section called

15     "self-ethnic cleansing" which was referred to by the Hungarian

16     ambassador; correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   And in this section, it states:

19             "On several occasions it has been discussed why the Krajina Serb

20     population ran away in front of the advancing HV troops.  The term

21     self-ethnic cleansing has been used and indicates that the Serb

22     population left due to RSK indoctrination through the last four years.

23     The term gives responsibility for the exodus to the Serbs themselves and

24     release anybody else."

25             Now the issue of self-ethnic cleansing is something that you,

Page 15020

 1     yourself, put in your report and is something that you heard from someone

 2     who was not a party to the conflict, meaning the Hungarian ambassador;

 3     correct.

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Mr. Registrar, could you please pull up P1287.

 6     And while it's coming up, I'll advise everyone that it is a

 7     September 9th, 1995, ECMM report.

 8        Q.   The second page of this document, Mr. Hansen, in the second full

 9     paragraph, includes a fairly extensive discussion about an interview

10     given by the vice-president of the Sabor, Vladimir Seks.

11             Do you understand that the Sabor is the Croatian parliament?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   In that interview he is described as being utterly uncompromising

14     in his standpoint over property rights of the Croatian Serbs stating that

15     "there are no rules here."

16             Seks said that "private property of the Serbs who have left

17     Croatia must be part of the final division of liabilities and claims."

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'd like Mr. Registrar to please call up

19     3D01-0827 via Sanction, please.  It's not necessary to do it via

20     Sanction.  It has been uploaded.

21        Q.   And while it is coming up, Mr. Hansen, we were able to obtain a

22     copy of this interview that was used as a reference source for this

23     report.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And on this particular topic, if we could go to

25     page 5 of the English version and page 3 of the B/C/S.  If we could

Page 15021

 1     scroll down to the very bottom, where it starts with:  "That's the legal

 2     situation."

 3             And I'll just represent to you that this document, the bold are

 4     the questions or the comments from the author of the interview, or the

 5     questioner, and the remaining portion which is not in bold are the

 6     responses in this text.

 7             It's a September 4th, 1995 interview.  And the question is,

 8     preface to this, is why there was a state of war proclaimed between

 9     Croatia and Serbia relating to war operations.  And the question is:

10     "That's the legal situation.  However, what are the actual chances to get

11     war reparations from Serbia?"

12             Seks answers:

13             "Factually there are no records in history that somebody paid war

14     reparations if they did not capitulate at whole if it wasn't occupied,

15     and if paying war reparations were not imposed to it.

16             "Question:  So it is like, 'Who cares.  No harm done.'

17             "Answer:  Croatia has already seized all property that was in

18     social ownership by Serbia and Montenegro.

19              "Question:  The same as they have seized all of Croatian

20     property.  How does the law regulate private ownership?

21              "Answer:  Since what happened is a country falling apart and

22     creation of new ones, several solutions are possible in order to

23     compensate war reparations to Croats."

24             If we could go to the next page, I'm sorry, in English.  Thank

25     you.  Thank you to my colleague for noticing that.

Page 15022

 1             I left off Your Honours in the second line of that second -- the

 2     next page.

 3              "Several solutions are possible in order to compensate war

 4     reparations to Croats.  A, a complete war defeat, total capitulation, and

 5     imposed payments.  That's not realistic to happen.  B, after the war has

 6     completely ended and the relations have been normalised, to solve the

 7     question of war reparations by arrangement.  This is as realistic to

 8     happen as A.  C, to bring a suit against Serbia before the Tribunal in

 9     The Hague which is depends on the principle of voluntariness; therefore,

10     that's unrealistic as well.  D, you can say it this way:  We have finally

11     got rid of everything, and that's the lowest price we could have paid.

12     E, regarding the breakup of Yugoslavia and everything said from A to D,

13     ... I personally think the same, a law on succession should be applied on

14     private ownership of the ones who left Croatia of their own accord.

15             "Question:  Can you be a by the more specific?

16             "Answer:  Specifically that means that the private ownership of

17     Serbs who left Croatia should enter a phase of final division of

18     obligation and demand in probate proceedings called succession in former

19     Yugoslavia.  That's in case, if war reparations, are not compensated nor

20     charged.

21             "Question:  Does that mean that Croatia would take such goods and

22     turn them into succession estate and leave to Serbia to settle the debts

23     to their citizens?

24             "Answer:  That's right.

25             "Question:  Does that apply on summer houses owned by Serbs in

Page 15023

 1     Croatia?

 2             "Answer:  Yes, it does."

 3             If we could go to the next page in English.

 4             "Question:  Would such proceedings be in accordance with

 5     international regulations?

 6             "Answer:  There are no rules.  It is a matter of conventions an

 7     actual relations.  Never in history had a country fallen apart under the

 8     same circumstances as Yugoslavia had."

 9        Q.   Now, I'd like to go back to the statement that was made in this

10     report, Mr. Hansen, P1287.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. ...

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm going too fast.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  This was not an invitation to stop completely,

14     Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  All right.  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Hansen, based on the original text of the interview and on

17     the excerpt here that is taken out of the interview in this report, you

18     would agree with me, would you not, that the statement that the

19     standpoint over property rights of Croatian Serbs stating there are no

20     rules here does not mean that in any way, shape, or form, the interview

21     stated that Croatian Serbs would have their property confiscated or

22     uncompensated; correct?

23        A.   I would like to say that that ECMM report that you refer to is a

24     weekly assessment issued by the ECMM headquarters.  An assessment at this

25     point is a report that would reflect over actual reports, daily reports,

Page 15024

 1     from the preceding week, and, as such, I have no stake at all in that

 2     report.

 3        Q.   I understand that, Mr. Hansen.  My question to you is, since this

 4     report has been tendered through you, as a witness, would you agree with

 5     me, based on your reading of what was quoted in the ECMM report and what

 6     Mr. Seks actually said is taken completely out of context?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  The mere fact that the document was tendered

 9     through Mr. Hansen does not mean that he can necessarily provide factual

10     information about it.  So in that respect I would object to

11     Mr. Kuzmanovic's question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't think as a matter of fact, that

13     Mr. Kuzmanovic is seeking any factual information.  He is just seeking

14     from this witness an opinion, an opinion about whether what is in the

15     ECMM report is supported by the text of the interview itself.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is, by the way, a question which, of course,

18     could be answered by the Chamber as well.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  True, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you want to -- although it's a witness of

21     fact who has clearly stated several times that sometimes that he did not

22     observe matters himself or that he wasn't the author of the report, and

23     since we had heard Mr. Hedaraly does not object against seeking an

24     opinion of this witness, I won't stop you, but ...

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 15025

 1        Q.   Mr. Hansen, you've heard me and you've read the version that I

 2     have read to you and you have seen what was in the ECMM memory report.

 3     You would agree with me, would you not, from your reading of both what I

 4     read to you and what you have read in the ECMM report that Mr. Seks'

 5     statement is taken completely out of context?

 6        A.   There is a discrepancy between the two texts, yes.

 7        Q.   With respect to the earlier paragraph, in 1289, if could I please

 8     go back to -- I'm sorry, 1287.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Mr. Registrar, I'm going to be flipping back and

10     forth between 1287 and this 3D document, just so you know.

11             If we could go back to that same page R026-5902 of P1287.

12        Q.   If we look at the top of this page where the paragraph begins:

13     "Statements ..."

14             And I'll read to that you, Mr. Hansen:

15             "Statements from high-ranking Croatian politicians of late have

16     demonstrated that in the aftermath of Operation Storm, there appear to be

17     no indications of moderation of Croatian politics.  In fact, on the

18     contrary, the Hawks within the Sabor seem to be taking advantage of the

19     current international attention in order to promote the image that

20     Croatia, as the injured party, is merely attempting to redress the

21     balance.  President Tudjman's claim of 'an eye for an eye' as

22     justification of the appalling destruction of Serb property in the former

23     Sectors North and South being just one example of this."

24             I'd like to go back to the 3D document, 3D01-0827.

25             In this particular first page of this interview, the preface of

Page 15026

 1     the interview, the second paragraph talks about the inventories of

 2     Hawkism and describes in the third line Mr. Seks as a hawk.  And nowhere

 3     in this particular document or in this particular interview is there

 4     anywhere a quote from President Tudjman claiming "a eye for an eye" as

 5     any kind of a justification.

 6             Now, can you tell me, Mr. Hansen, where the source of this claim

 7     that President Tudjman justified anything as a eye for an eye?

 8        A.   No, I cannot.  And, again, it's not my report, it's not my

 9     wording.  I have no reference to this at all.  [Indiscernible] by the

10     way.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, I urged Mr. Kehoe to stay within his

12     time-limits.  You are now almost 20 minutes.  You are you over that.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I have one further question or set of questions

14     relating to part of the interview, and I'm done, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please try to wrap up as quickly as possible.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Staying with this document --

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honours, as long as have it, I might as

19     well tender it right now.  I'm still going to be using it, but I will

20     tender it for the moment, since I'm going to be going back and forth.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections from the Prosecution, Mr. Hedaraly.

22             Then, Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

24     exhibit number D1275.  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 15027

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to page 2 of the English, and we

 2     can stay with page 1 of the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   The question at the top of the page relates to a discussion

 4     regarding, at the time Serbian President Milosevic.

 5             "Question:  Does that mean that the Serbian president was left

 6     only with Bosnia as the only territory to manipulate and to expand to.

 7             "Answer:  Exclusively.  Milosevic is in a pretty unenviable

 8     situation.  He is in a situation to mark Karadzic's option as hazardous

 9     in case that the Bosnian leader does not accept the plan of the contact

10     group.  On the other side, keeping Karadzic's Serbian republic alive is

11     the only way to evade Milosevic's complete defeat.  He must force

12     Karadzic to accept the plan of the contact group, because he ensures a

13     territorial entirety that would be connected to Serbia.  A modified

14     American plan is completed in a way.

15             "Question:  If that was completed, what would be the consequences

16     for Croatia?

17             "Answer:  The consequences would be that the stability and safety

18     would be ensured of the most of the national area of Croats in Bosnia and

19     the area that are shared with the Muslims.  Safety of those areas and

20     nations would be guaranteed, especially because the Federation has to

21     rely on Croatia for confederate relations.  By accepting the American

22     plan, Croatia does not share a direct border with Serbia and can

23     strategically protect the longest and the most vulnerable border."

24             Now, Mr. Hansen, if we could go back to P1287.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  The same page we were on before, Mr. Registrar.

Page 15028

 1     Second page, please.

 2             If we can go down about two thirds -- a little more than halfway

 3     down where it says:  "Confederal links between the confederation and

 4     Croatia."

 5             The sentence starts:  "Seks said ..."

 6             There we go, yes, thank you.  If we could highlight that

 7     paragraph, please, bottom half of that paragraph.

 8             Now, in this particular portion of the ECMM report, taken out of

 9     the article, the report says:

10             "Seks said that the Federation 'must entirely rely on confederate

11     relations and links (to Croatia).'  And the consequences for Croatia were

12     'the stability and security of the Croats in Bosnia and the territories

13     which the Croats shared with Muslims.'  These comments clearly

14     demonstrate Croatia's goal of a hinder land in Bosnia acting as a buffer

15     zone and the realisation of a 'greater Croatia.'"

16             Now, Mr. Hansen, you would agree with me based on this report and

17     in comparison to the actual interview, there's absolutely nothing in

18     Mr. Seks's answer that says anything about a greater Croatia; correct.

19        A.   Correct.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you for the extra time, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hansen, you will now be cross-examined by

24     Mr. Kehoe.  Mr. Kehoe is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. Hansen, by the way.

Page 15029

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Hansen.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   It's a pleasure to meet you, sir.  I will do my best to move

 6     through this as quickly as possible so you can get on your way.

 7        A.   Thank you.

 8        Q.   I'd just like to touch on a couple of things.  First, the issue

 9     of the evacuation on the 4th that you referred to on page 2 of your

10     diary.

11             Mr. Hansen, prior to the -- prior to Operation Storm, were you

12     aware of plans by the RSK for evacuations?

13        A.   No, I was not aware of such plans.

14        Q.   You mean nobody had told you that they were practicing

15     evacuations or that teams had been set up to make sure that there was

16     fuel and transportation for evacuations?

17        A.   No.  I was not aware of that.

18        Q.   You were aware, however, that people actually wanted to leave the

19     area, let's just say in late July of 1995?

20        A.   Yeah.  And -- and families of people who were working with us

21     left in -- in the late July days.

22        Q.   And did you see quite a few people leave in the late July days,

23     sir?

24        A.   No.  I was aware of the immediate relatives to -- to staff

25     working with us.

Page 15030

 1        Q.   Now on the 4th of August, and if we can go to P592, and I'm

 2     talking about the afternoon of the 4th of August.  We're just going to

 3     talk a little bit about this evacuation.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  I don't want to interject too quickly.  I'm going

 7     to let counsel ask questions, but I'm just starting to get a bit

 8     concerned because the witness just stated that he knew absolutely about

 9     the evacuation on the 4th, so I'm --

10             MR. MISETIC:  Excuse me.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  If I could --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, may finish what he says.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, having received the list of documents that

14     Mr. Kehoe intends to use, many of the exhibits relate to evacuation the

15     video, the plans are there, so I just am wondering if it is going to be

16     an exercise in going through these documents and educating the witness on

17     something he has no knowledge about.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, as all counsel is aware, that witnesses

19     are not here to learn new things but to tell us what they know, and that

20     is I think already clearly demonstrated by you, Mr. Hansen, when you knew

21     something, you told us; and when you apparently did not know something,

22     you told that as well.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   I direct your attention to this note which was done by a member

Page 15031

 1     of the UN Sector South staff concerning a meeting with the ARSK

 2     leadership.  And you note in your diary at page 2 that there had been a

 3     meeting between a UN and the RSK General, and the discussion was the

 4     evacuation.

 5             Do you know who this ECMM person is that is listed in the first

 6     paragraph?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, sir, no?

 9        A.   No, I don't remember the -- a person taking part in that meeting.

10        Q.   And how about this, there is an designation towards the end of

11     that paragraph, that notes the ARSK chief of residence evacuation.  Did

12     you know who that was?

13        A.   No.  I'm afraid not.

14        Q.   Okay, sir.  Let us turn to D182.  This is another note by a

15     Colonel Ratsouk of the meeting at the -- with the ARSK.  Excuse me, the

16     RSK authorities.

17             As this comes up, Mr. Hansen, you'll note it says, 8 July 1995,

18     the parties have agreed, but it's actually the 4th of August, 1995, so

19     don't be thrown off by that wrong date.

20             I'm interested in the centre because this thereby plays back into

21     your diary.  This -- and generally talks about the meeting with

22     Kosta Novakovic.  The middle paragraph notes that the RSK authorities

23     have requested UN assistance in organizing and providing transport for

24     such evacuation.  RSK initial calculation shows that UN will need to

25     provide for these refugees transportation around 70.000 litres of fuel,

Page 15032

 1     and 450.000 trucks [sic].  Excuse me, 450 trucks.  That's a lot of

 2     trucks, 450.000.  450 trucks, excuse me.

 3              "RSK propose one main road from Knin to Padjene, Otric, Srb,

 4     Martin Brod, Bosanski Petrovac, Banja Luka."

 5             Now, sir, you in your diary learned about this meeting, and you

 6     also learned at that meeting that the plan was to go to Bosnia; isn't

 7     that right, sir?

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  He said that he learned

 9     at the meeting.  I think he testified that he wasn't at the meeting.

10             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  I also heard you say --

12             MR. KEHOE:  And if I misspoke, I may have been --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Please proceed.

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   You learned about this meeting, and you learned that the RSK was

16     going to evacuate their people to Bosnia, didn't you?

17        A.   Again, I was -- I was not taking part in the meeting, and today I

18     -- I don't recall being informed -- or what I was informed about

19     following the meeting.

20        Q.   Well, you noted in your diary that you were going to drive with

21     them to Drvar in Bosnia.

22        A.   I think that was -- sir, that was following the -- the

23     commencement of the operation at a time when -- when civilians were

24     gathering in front of the -- of the main gate to the barracks.

25        Q.   So at -- sorry?

Page 15033

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Maybe we are talking past each other, and I am referring to the

 4     meeting that you talk about in your diary, where you note on page 2 that:

 5             "There has just been a meeting between the UN and the RSK

 6     General.  The aim now is to evacuate the population from the larger towns

 7     throughout Sector South."

 8        A.   Okay.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  I -- Your Honour, I think it may be helpful if the

10     witness could look at his diary, that page.  It's not up on the screen.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Certainly.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and perhaps for to us look at -- on the screen.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Sorry, Mr. President, it's tab 21 at P -- it's -- the

14     exhibit is P1292, the second page.

15             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   Now, sir, you learned after that meeting that the civilian

18     population was going to be evacuated.  Is that right?

19        A.   It stated here, yes.

20        Q.   Do you recall this at all?

21        A.   I recall that we were in some provisionary planning -- were

22     assigned different tasks, and obviously, I was assigned the task of

23     jumping on one of the -- on a vehicle in a convoy.  And this planning, by

24     the way, never materialised.

25        Q.   Do you recall, sir, that as part of the planning, the evacuation

Page 15034

 1     convoy was going to go to Bosnia, that that was the plan?

 2        A.   Well, it's an entry here, I cannot -- I have no further comment

 3     to the entry in the diary.

 4        Q.   Does the answer reflect that it was going to Bosnia?

 5        A.   I really don't know, apart from what is stated here.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, you also referred, and I'm not sure, frankly, if it

 7     was on your direct this morning or cross-examination with one of my

 8     colleagues, but you do refer to it your comprehensive survey - and let me

 9     get that - which is P1290 at page 5, page 2 of the actual document, that:

10             "In the evening the sector commander was called for a meeting

11     with ARSK in Knin.  He asked to assist in evacuating the population by

12     supplying fuel and transportation."

13        A.   Okay.

14        Q.   Do you see that, sir?

15        A.   Yeah.

16        Q.   "Shortly after the meeting it was advised by radio that the

17     civilian population in the Krajina should evacuate."

18        A.   Okay.

19        Q.   And just moving ahead to that same document, and we're talking

20     about -- should be page 16 or 19 as it is uploaded but 16 on the page

21     number top.  Your interpreter told you that she was informed by her

22     boyfriend that there was going to be an and I quote your words "an

23     organised evacuation."

24        A.   Okay.

25        Q.   Do you see that?

Page 15035

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Yeah.

 3             Does that accurately assess or assist your recollection that

 4     there's a meeting, that the evacuation decision is made, and that a radio

 5     broadcast when out and that the boyfriend had the idea that it was going

 6     be an organised evacuation?

 7        A.   I think what we're talking about here is a lot of time --

 8             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9        A.   The events here, yeah, have passed -- has passed, and I have

10     absolutely no reason to question my entries and reports or my own diary

11     at this time.  We are just talking about 13 years somehow disappeared

12     between the events and our conversation.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Hansen, I appreciate that, and, please, to the extent

14     that you can help us and answer the questions you can.  If you don't

15     recall other than the entries, then just let us know.  Okay.  I don't

16     want to make this an exercise in too much difficulty for you.

17        A.   Thank you.

18        Q.   Now on a separate note with regard to --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

20             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.

21             Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   On a separate note, independent of the residents that heard the

23     radio report, I just would like to note for you out on page 18 of your

24     comprehensive report, which is, I think, page 21 as it's uploaded but

25     page 18 on the top of the document itself.  In the second -- first full

Page 15036

 1     paragraph, starting with:  "Some of the people ..."

 2             If we go down two sentences:

 3             "When soldiers found out that they were alone on the front line,

 4     without any backup or any support from the high - it should be 'rang'

 5     [sic] officers; I suppose it means 'ranking' officers - without

 6     communication means, they just decided on their own to pull out."

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   "Then they informed people in the villages close to the positions

 9     about withdrawal and whoever wanted to join them were welcome [sic]."

10             So that was based on, I take it, your discussions with people at

11     the time.  There was yet another arm of evacuation that the soldiers took

12     people with them that were near the front line.

13        A.   Your quotation is from -- taken from a testimony issued by my

14     interpreters.  It is not my text.  But what she is informing is that --

15     there that soldiers were somehow left at the front line and with the

16     command structure disappearing.

17        Q.   And then --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

19             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  Yes.

20        Q.   And I would like to show you a couple of documents, and it will

21     end in an ECMM report.  But just following up on your interpreter, you

22     wrote the report based on what the interpreter told you, believing that

23     she was a dependable source.  Is that right?

24        A.   It's true.

25        Q.   Now, if we can just turn to page -- excuse me, P71, 80 in the

Page 15037

 1     English, and page 43 in the B/C/S.

 2             And this is an operational diary for the Split Military District.

 3     So -- an HV operational diary.  If we go to page 80 in the English and 43

 4     in the B/C/S, on the right-hand column.  And I want to show you at line

 5     -- time is 1330 on the 4th:  "Enemy lines broken, enemy chaotically

 6     running away."

 7             1445:  "Seize Badanj and Visibaba, one tank reported."  I will

 8     tell you that the evidence is that those are features that are up on the

 9     Dinara.

10             And just mindful of this time, 1330 to 1445 -- or just 1445, I

11     would like to turn your attention to D137.

12             Now, this is an evacuation order signed by President Martic in

13     Knin on the 4th of August, 1995, at 1645.

14             My first question is did you know that Martic was in Knin on the

15     4th of August?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And were you aware, were you made aware at any point that he

18     signed an evacuation order at 1645?

19        A.   No, I was not aware that he signed, but I was aware of a radio

20     broadcast.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, did ECMM -- let me show you a series of documents.

22     And first it's -- I'm not sure if this is -- this is -- I wanted to go

23     into the level of how ECMM handled this.  65 ter 710, it may very well be

24     a document that counsel has -- it's not -- it's 65 ter 710.  It's a

25     weekly assessment for -- 17010 [sic], that's right.

Page 15038

 1             I'm sorry, 65 ter 7010.

 2             I realize this is a weekly assessment out of Zagreb, sir, so --

 3     but this is for the week 4 to 10, and if we could go to the second page.

 4     And they're talking about Operation Storm throughout this, and in the

 5     middle of the paragraph, during former Croatian displaced people it

 6     notes:  "It seems an evacuation order may have been issued."

 7             Again, if we could just go into --

 8             MR. KEHOE:  If we could offer this into evidence, Mr. President.

 9     65 ter 7010.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections by the Prosecution.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this documents shall be given

13     Exhibit D1276.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D1276 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   And, Mr. Hansen, I am just going to go through a couple of

17     documents with so I can move through this quickly and then I can ask you

18     questions, as opposed to doing it seriatim.

19             The next one is 65 ter 4115 which is a daily monitoring report

20     for 21 August 1995.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  This one is actually P1297 MFI.  It's one of the

22     bar table documents.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, counsel.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that there is no objection against --

25             MR. KEHOE:  No objection to the admission, Mr. President.

Page 15039

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Same for the other Defence teams which means already

 2     that P1297 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   And going -- this is -- you can see the front sheet of this being

 5     a monitoring report for 21 August --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  That's not the front sheet there.  65 ter 4115.

 7     That's it.  And if we could go to the last page of this.  Federal

 8     Republic of Yugoslavia, according to media sources -- and do you see this

 9     here, Mr. Hansen?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   According to media sources, the Krajina Serb minister of foreign

12     affairs, Mr.  Vojinovic stated on 20 August that the order for the

13     evacuation of civilians from Knin had been issued by Krajina Serb

14     President, Martic.  Mr. Vojinovic also said that both Mr. Martic and the

15     Krajina Serb army commander General Mrksic had denied issuing such an

16     order at last week's session of the Krajina -- excuse me, of the Krajina

17     government."

18             And let me just go into one last document, and this would be P798

19     which is again a ECMM report of mission -- report by head of mission for

20     15 August 1995.

21             You can take a look at the front sheet, and I'm actually

22     interested in page 3.  It's P798 at page 3.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  I apologise, it's D798.  I have written

25     in the outline P and it's actually D.  Apologies.

Page 15040

 1             And if we could go to the second page at the top.

 2        Q.   Do you need to see the front page again, Mr. Hansen?

 3        A.   No, it's okay.

 4        Q.   And you see that -- that -- actually, it's the third page, if we

 5     can.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the third page.

 7        Q.   Talking about the people leaving:

 8             "Their departure seems to be final, but Krajina authorities, and

 9     particularly, President Martic encouraged their citizens to leave."

10             Now you were getting quite a bit of information that this was the

11     evacuation that was ordered by the RSK, and they had no intentions of

12     staying in the Krajina once the HV began the attack.  Isn't that right?

13        A.   That is right.

14        Q.   Okay.  And let's go to P889, and this is a sitrep, a weekly

15     sitrep, of the 13th of August, 1995.  Just in that summary at the top.

16     In here you call this a -- I trust that you didn't write this, but in

17     this, this is a called at the top a -- "the largest voluntary ethnic

18     cleansing during the entire Balkan conflict."  Do you see that?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   And I think you talked about that during your discussions with

21     Mr. Kuzmanovic, and it is likewise in -- I'm not sure.  If I may ...

22     P1289, which is a sitrep of the 12th of September, 1995, that discussions

23     the meeting with the Hungarian ambassador Cermati that was talked about

24     before.  If we go to -- just note in the one -- first paragraph that

25     Mr. Cermati is meeting with you in Knin, and he goes to the bottom of the

Page 15041

 1     page where he notes the that:

 2             "Why did the Serbs flee in front of the Croatian army?  He called

 3     it self-ethnic cleansing."

 4             Now this whole idea of self-ethnic cleansing, I mean, you use it,

 5     the Hungarian ambassador uses it, there -- as we go through the ECMM

 6     reports it's -- has comments that the evacuation was ordered by

 7     President Martic.  I mean, as you sit here, Mr. Hansen, have you

 8     concluded that that evacuation was a voluntarily evacuation that was done

 9     at the behest of the leaders of the Republic of the Serb Krajina?

10        A.   It certainly comes across as an appeal from -- from the president

11     to the population, that an evacuation should take place.

12        Q.   Now --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, Mr. Hansen, you say it certainly

14     comes across.  Is that -- are you interpreting the information you now

15     receive and -- or are you referring to what came to your mind at the

16     time, in addition to what we find in the reports?

17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, what I know is that there was a radio

18     broadcast in the afternoon of the 4th.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             THE WITNESS:  And any additional information is new to me.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And from what I understand, you say doesn't

22     contradict what my opinion was at the time, based on this information

23     about the radio programme.

24             THE WITNESS:  That is true, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to invite to you clearly distinguish

Page 15042

 1     between what you remember from the time, what the conclusions were that

 2     you made at the time, on the basis of the information you had at that

 3     time, and -- because you're not in a position -- of course, you can read

 4     or hear what is presented to you, but I would like it know very exactly

 5     what is -- what's new to you, and what is, therefore, mainly a matter of

 6     conclusions, which may be in line with, and then, of course, we'd like to

 7     know, although we might be able even to establish that -- whether

 8     something is contradicting.

 9             Mr. Kehoe, would you also please try to make this possible for

10     the witness, to always clearly put to him what is the basis for the

11     answers he gives often to composite questions.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Well, Mr. Hansen, you were obviously reading these ECMM reports

14     while you were down there, and you in fact gathered more information than

15     just the information you had about the radio report over time, didn't

16     you?

17        A.   We did, yes.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             And in monitoring the other information you got from these other

20     sources, you concluded, did you not, that this evacuation was a

21     voluntarily evacuation ordered by the president, Milan Martic?

22        A.   Well, I mean, from the following day in the morning and then

23     until the 7th, I think, we had no communication means, so, therefore, I

24     did not read any reports.  We were then, at that time, relocated to the

25     barracks.

Page 15043

 1        Q.   I'm talking about the weeks that follow when you had the

 2     opportunity to --

 3        A.   Yes, absolutely.  Yeah, then we started all reports.

 4        Q.   Is that that you got a better picture of the actual voluntary

 5     nature this evacuation, by reading these reports?

 6        A.   I mean, it was not a subject that we were discussing at that

 7     time.

 8        Q.   Let's talk about some practical concerns about this evacuation.

 9     And you were friends with your interpreter.  Is that right?

10        A.   Not personal friends.  We had a working relationship.

11        Q.   A working relationship.  I didn't mean anything or than that,

12     sir, please, and pardon me if -- I don't mean that.  Just -- just, you

13     know.

14             And you advised her at the time when people were evacuating or

15     people thereafter were leaving and going to Serbia, you advised her to

16     stay.  Now, why did you do that?

17        A.   Well, my -- my assessment of the situation at that time was that

18     too many civilians had been victim to a political battle, if you like,

19     and I could see that a future as a refugee in Serbia would offer a bleak

20     future, whereas a presence here, where she was born and raised, would

21     offer a prospect for a life.

22        Q.   Some years down the line you spoke to her about that decision

23     that she made to stay, didn't you?

24        A.   That is true.

25        Q.   And she thanked you for your advice, didn't she?

Page 15044

 1        A.   She did.

 2        Q.   Because she stayed?

 3        A.   She stayed, yeah.

 4        Q.   And faired and continued to life in the Knin area?

 5        A.   In Zadar, yes.

 6        Q.   In Croatia?

 7        A.   Yes.  Well, Knin is also Croatia.

 8        Q.   Yeah, I'm sorry.  That's right.

 9             Let me ask you a couple of questions that we talked about, and

10     I'm shifting subjects here, sir.  Let me go to some of the items talked

11     about by Mr. Hedaraly.

12             In P2146, which is a sitrep of the 7th of August, it notes that

13     you were speaking to a CALO, and we spoke about permission to go

14     monitoring team N2 area, and he informed us that before clearance from

15     General Gotovina, we are not allowed to accomplish our tasks.

16             Now, this is a time, sir.  Was the place where N2 wanted to go,

17     was there troop movements?  Was there any type of military activity,

18     given that it was the 7th of August?

19        A.   At this point we are confined to the barracks, and what we could

20     see was military movement just outside the barracks.

21        Q.   Well, I mean, I'm talking about N2.  Did N2 want to go to an area

22     where there was military activity, or do you know?

23        A.   We just wanted to pick up our typical work which was patrolling.

24        Q.   But at the time of --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

Page 15045

 1             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   At the time this was taking place, the 7th of August, there was

 5     military activity going on, wasn't there?

 6        A.   Well, we know today, yes.

 7        Q.   Let's turn to P860 also it's in tab 6 of your book.  Talk about

 8     -- it's a sitrep of 10 August 1995.  And Mr. Hedaraly addressed this with

 9     you.  On page 2, it's 3(f).  Excuse me, P830.  Is that right?  P830.

10             Again, this is the 10th of August.  "Team Knin report a

11     continuing restriction of movement in trying to get to Benkovac and

12     Obrovac."  This is in the second page in paragraph (f) at the top.

13             They were told by the policija -- "on the check-points they can

14     only get to these places with the written permission from General

15     Gotovina."

16             Now at this date on the 10th, again, around Benkovac and Obrovac

17     were there troop movements?  Were the HV doing anything militarily there

18     that -- that they wanted to prevent outsiders from coming in and out

19     while they were moving, or do you know?

20        A.   I don't think so.  For obvious reasons I'm not able to -- to

21     somehow verify any military activity, but we were for sure prevented from

22     going there.

23        Q.   But you don't know --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

25             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.

Page 15046

 1        Q.   I understand you were not allowed to go there, but you don't know

 2     what the HV was doing in the area at that time, do you?

 3        A.   That is true.

 4        Q.   P1288.

 5             This is a sitrep for 12 September 1995.  Likewise, discuss with

 6     Mr. Hedaraly in that first 2(b).

 7             "As per order from the Croatian army Ministry of Defence only the

 8     Generals Gotovina and Cermak can deal with the international organisation

 9     directly."

10             Now when you got that information, you concluded, did you not,

11     that the Ministry of Defence only wanted the higher-ranking people to

12     talk to international organisations so that the Ministry of Defence would

13     speak with one voice.  Isn't that what you concluded?

14        A.   I think so, yes.

15        Q.   Now this is the 12th of September, and I think you noted for us

16     in your -- one of your statements, if I may, this is P1284 at page 4,

17     that the only time you met General Gotovina was this meeting on the 20th

18     of September, 1995.  Is that correct?

19        A.   That's correct, sir.

20        Q.   Okay.  And when you met him -- by the way, did you try to meet

21     him before that or put written requests in to meet General Gotovina

22     before that, that were denied?

23        A.   Not as far as I remember.

24        Q.   And when you met him --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

Page 15047

 1             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, again.

 2             I know my time is somewhat limited.  I try to get ahead of myself

 3     too much.  I apologise.  I apologise to the interpreters.

 4        Q.   And you did know that -- that as of the 6th of August, 1995, that

 5     -- that the -- the civilian authorities had taken over in Knin.  You did

 6     know that, did you not?

 7        A.   No, I did not know.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             Now, I want to go through this sitrep just a bit.  And this is

10     P895.  And you talked about a number of issues.  It's coming up right

11     now.

12             A number of issues were discussed.  Among them, the possibility

13     of ECMM to patrol at the Bosnian side of the border.  "So far it is not

14     possible, and the General promised to inform us."

15             Did you know, Mr. Hansen, that there was ongoing military

16     activity between the HV, HVO, and the ABiH against the Bosnian Serbs and

17     the Krajina Serbs in Bosnia at this time?

18        A.   Yes, we know.  We knew.

19        Q.   So it was surprise that General Gotovina didn't exactly want you

20     to come up at that particular time to go up to that front line area, was

21     it?

22        A.   We had been monitoring wartime events before, so I don't know if

23     it's a surprise or not.

24        Q.   Okay.  Asked about -- going back to the report, asked about the

25     ongoing looting, arson, and harassment, "The General's opinion is that

Page 15048

 1     police has to control the situation, and Croatia is still a nation with

 2     constitution" -- should be law and order.  "... any person committing

 3     crimes will be charged."

 4             Now, in your discussion with him, he never gave you any

 5     indication that anybody who committed a criminal act should -- should be

 6     -- or they shouldn't be prosecuted, did he?

 7        A.   No, he did not.

 8        Q.   I mean, he -- he -- he told you that this was a civilian area,

 9     and it was up to the police.

10        A.   Yeah.  Clearly there was a distinction between civilian and

11     military responsibility in his -- in his answer to -- to the question.

12        Q.   Now, he noted for you, and this the area that -- that was the

13     discussed with Mr. Hedaraly.  And it notes that:

14             "However, a war is always followed by disasters, and now things

15     are under control.  The General has no objection for Serbs to live in

16     Croatia."

17             But he regards it as "a human feeling to hate an enemy who has

18     burned, looted, and expelled one's families."

19             Now, Mr. Hansen, this was a revenge element that you had

20     recognised in your comprehensive report as something that was pervasive

21     in the area.  Isn't that right?

22        A.   That is right.

23        Q.   And as a man, Mr. Hansen, who lived there and learned what

24     happened and saw what happened, I mean, you could understand what

25     General Gotovina was talking about when he said that people who had been

Page 15049

 1     injured had a degree of revenge in their heart?

 2        A.   That is true.

 3        Q.   Let's just talk about that.  Some of the instances that you talk

 4     about, and this could very well be in evidence.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  65 ter 2258.  No.  65 ter 2258 is an ECMM report,

 6     7 September 1995.

 7        Q.   I'm not -- I'm not certain who wrote this, sir, so I mean, I know

 8     you were there at the time.

 9             But if -- this is an ECMM report.  And if we can go to the second

10     page of this report.

11        A.   Sorry, sir, it from the humanitarian officer.

12        Q.   Okay, sir.  So you had nothing to do with the report?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Well, let me just see if you know about it then -- which is --

15     it's a -- and if we could just look at the -- under the Donji Lepuri, a

16     former Croatian village in RSK, keeping 235 Croatian and 35 Serbian

17     inhabitants.

18             "Humanitarian officer observed several Croatian families

19     repairing their houses.  He met the former -- Mr. Juric Branco who told

20     that they are about 30 families rebuilding the farms.  They had lived

21     since four years in the homes of their relatives in Zadar and go daily

22     from there to here.  Their church is totally [sic] destroyed.  The graves

23     were open, and the bones of the buried were thrown around.  The houses

24     were looted and burnt in 1991/1992, and the cistern tanks poisoned (dead

25     animals and garbage thrown into).  The electricity had been destroyed,

Page 15050

 1     and they are waiting now for its reconstruction to be able to stay in the

 2     village."

 3             Now realising, Mr. Hansen, that this is not yours, it's a

 4     humanitarian officer, but this is it pretty much the emblematic of the

 5     situation of the returning Serb Croats and what they had gone through.

 6     Isn't that right?

 7        A.   The Croat population in the RSK were expelled back in 1991/1992.

 8     That is correct.

 9        Q.   And they also suffered quite a bit at the hands of the Serbs

10     before --

11        A.   That is true.

12        Q.   During the expulsion, didn't they?

13        A.   That is true.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'd like to offer 65 ter

15     2258 into evidence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

17             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, Mr. Hedaraly.

19             Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

21     Exhibit D1277.  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D1277 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. KEHOE:

24        Q.   And, Mr. Hansen, you, yourself, talked to people about this, and

25     I want to just chat with you just briefly about one of those incidents,

Page 15051

 1     and going back to your diary which is P1290, at tab 21, at page 11 in the

 2     hard copy, and it's for the 12th of August of 1995, where you talk about

 3     going back to your old headquarters.  Do you see that before you, sir?

 4     Page --

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Page 11.

 7        A.   Oh, okay.

 8        Q.   It's D1292 [sic] is the exhibit.  P.  Excuse me P1292.

 9              "We visited our old HQ.  It has been visited again, and

10     everything that was removed was destroyed."

11             MR. HEDARALY:  So sorry to interrupt.  It's the wrong document on

12     the screen, just for the people that don't have the hard copy.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you very much.  I'm looking at P1292.  P1292.

14     Apologies, page 11.  At the top of that -- if we go to page 11 of that

15     document.  Eleven in the English, in any event.  That's it.

16        Q.   Are you with me, Mr. Hansen?

17        A.   I am.

18        Q.   This is the 12th of August.

19             "We visited our old HQ.  It has been visited again, and

20     everything that wasn't removed was destroyed.  There was a visit while we

21     were there.  A guy in uniform was scouring the building."

22             Now this guy was in what looked like a military uniform, wasn't

23     he?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  And he clearly was not operating under orders doing what

Page 15052

 1     he was doing at this locale, was he?

 2        A.   That is correct.

 3        Q.   "A guy in uniform was scouring the building.  Of course, we told

 4     him that he should get out, as this was ECMM property.  After talking a

 5     little while, we found out that our landlord, Sevco, had abused him with

 6     a knife four years ago."

 7             Now Sevco was a Serb, was he not?

 8        A.   He was a Serb.

 9        Q.   "We saw the scars on his fingers, back and stomach.  At that time

10     he lived in Knin, and thus, had to flee.  With the new situation he was

11     back for a little revenge.  Sevco is already in Belgrade which means he

12     cannot get at him.  Instead he ran amok a little with a hammer and was

13     planning to burn down the building down.  Sevco will never use the

14     building again now as quite a lot of people are after him.  Via his own

15     restaurants he was a smuggler and a fence for stolen goods.  He dealt in

16     narcotics and was responsible for a lot of people being in prison.  Not

17     one of God's best efforts."

18             Obviously, I'm just going through this.

19             "And then he came back to exact his revenge because, of course --

20     from what had happened to him previously."

21             But that is -- was your understanding?

22        A.   Yeah.  He was there on a -- on a personal revenge.

23        Q.   But that was your understanding, sir, that that's the feeling

24     that General Gotovina was touching upon during your interview on the

25     20th, wasn't it?

Page 15053

 1        A.   Certainly this person had been a victim to the conduct of our

 2     landlord.  And whether you can sanction the feelings of revenge is a

 3     different matter, and -- but absolutely, the psychology of being a victim

 4     was a predominant feature at the time.

 5        Q.   I'm not saying sanctioning that conduct, sir, but you understand

 6     it.

 7        A.   That is true.

 8        Q.   Now, let me turn your attention to D799.  This is -- we'll go

 9     through this quite briefly, and D799 is a daily monitoring activity for

10     20 September.

11             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the next page.

12        Q.   This is an abbreviation of the conversation that you had with

13     General Gotovina.

14             MR. KEHOE:  If you can scroll down just a bit on that page, in

15     the English a little bit more.

16        Q.   It notes that the second-to-last paragraph, the commander of the

17     operative zone of Split, General Gotovina said to ECMM that:  "Burning,

18     looting, and harassment must be stopped by the police."  But he added in

19     regards "hatred towards an enemy who has burned, looted, and expelled

20     one's families as a normal human reaction."

21             Now, this was an abbreviation of your larger report, wasn't it?

22        A.   Well, this is it not my report, but it may be contributions from

23     some of the other persons in the meeting.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Well, let us turn to P893.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock and wondering

Page 15054

 1     what would be a good moment for the break.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  We can just go now before we go into this document.

 3     That's quite all right.  Or if you want me it continue, it's up to you,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And any further adjustment, more time or less time

 6     than expected?

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Can I just give you a reading of that when I -- after

 8     the break, if that's possible?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will have a break, and we will resume

10     at 4.30.

11                           --- Recess taken at 4.05 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.32 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President, thank you.

15        Q.   Now before we go into the next document which is P893,

16     Mr. Hansen, the daily reports that you do, those are the factual reports

17     as to what happened, aren't they?

18        A.   They are.

19        Q.   They are kind of the ground level from which everything else

20     flows?

21        A.   Yeah, they feed into the system.

22             MR. KEHOE:  If I can just show you P893.

23        Q.   Now, this meeting that you went to with General Gotovina, you

24     went with Mr. Leschly, didn't you?

25        A.   I did, yes.

Page 15055

 1        Q.   And what was his role at the time?

 2        A.   He was head of the -- what is it called?  The RC Zagreb.

 3        Q.   That would be the Regional Centre in Zagreb?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And he would be your superior.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, he would.

 7        Q.   This is his report of RC Zagreb, 17 to 23 September 1995.  And on

 8     page 2 of this report at the bottom, it reflects Mr. Leschly's comments.

 9     The bottom page -- of the page.  If we can just scroll -- yeah.

10             Notes:  "When Lieutenant-General Gotovina, commander of OZ Split

11     was asked if he shared Zadar Zupanja`s opinion about the need for a state

12     of emergency, in order ... to avoid the killings, lootings, and burnings,

13     his only remark was 'what killings?'  After which he went into an attack

14     on the international community that had no right to 'moral slapping' of

15     Croatia."

16             Now, Mr. Hansen, this comment that Mr. Leschly puts in there

17     about "what killings," comments attributed to General Gotovina about

18     "what killings," and the next line, "no right to 'moral slapping' of

19     Croatia."  Those two comments are not reflected in your factual report,

20     are they?

21        A.   No, they are not.

22        Q.   Okay.  As you sit here, Mr. Hansen, those comments didn't happen

23     during that meeting, did they?

24        A.   I -- I mean, it would be unfair to say yes or no because I simply

25     don't remember, and I certainly did not enter the phrases into my own

Page 15056

 1     report.

 2        Q.   And had General Gotovina launched into some criticism or question

 3     that killings had taken place, that is a factual issue that you would

 4     normally have included in your report, isn't it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now during the course of the time you were in ECMM, did you have

 7     a reason to question the objectivity of Mr. Leschly, when dealing with

 8     the Croatian side?

 9        A.   No.  But for sure he had a -- a more colourful phrasing in his

10     reports than I did.

11        Q.   Well, let me take it one step further.  Did you have occasion to

12     question the objectivity of other ECMM report-writers during this period

13     of time?

14        A.   No, I did not.

15        Q.   How about a guy by the name of Bent Jensen?

16        A.   I know Bent, yes.

17        Q.   Did you question his objectivity, sir?

18        A.   I would call him closer to the edge, and that he, at times, came

19     across with preferences to one side of the conflict.

20        Q.   Did you know, Mr. Hansen, that the RSK intelligence services were

21     trying to put people that work for the intelligence service into the ECMM

22     as interpreters.

23        A.   Yeah, I think all sides did that.

24        Q.   Were you likewise -- did you know they were trying to lie to the

25     ECMM people, monitors in order to ascribe to the Serb position?  Were you

Page 15057

 1     aware of that?

 2        A.   No.  I don't have any particular recollection of that.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let me shift gears, and we're going go to Knin prior to

 4     Operation Storm.  And I'd like to talk to you about a couple of issues

 5     that were raised by Mr. Hedaraly.  And during direct examination you

 6     noted that had you been to the ARSK northern barracks.  Is that right?

 7        A.   That's true.

 8        Q.   And when was that?

 9        A.   I don't have any recollection of the precise dates, but we were

10     there, and -- in -- well, before the operation.

11        Q.   Let's take it -- see if narrow it just a bit.

12             Were you there prior to Milan Martic declaring a state of war in

13     the RSK at the end of July 1995?

14        A.   Yeah.  I mean, my recollection of this is that we were there

15     before there was any -- anything developing in terms of -- of a major

16     operation.

17             So, yes, before the declaration of war.

18        Q.   So if I can just take this one step further, Mr. Hansen.  If you

19     came to the area in May of 1995, would you tell the Trial Chamber that

20     your meeting in -- no the northern bearings was earlier in time, in the

21     May, possibly early June time-frame?

22        A.   Yeah, that would -- yes.

23        Q.   Is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let me -- now when you went there, did you arrive

Page 15058

 1     unannounced, or were you escorted by a member of the ARSK?

 2        A.   I think we never arrived unannounced.

 3        Q.   So you went with, for instance, an ARSK liaison officer?

 4        A.   We were appointed meetings, and we -- whenever we met authorities

 5     no matter where, we always appointed meetings.

 6        Q.   Moving up to the time in -- prior to Operation Storm, in July,

 7     August of 1995, were you aware that the northern barracks was the

 8     headquarters for the 7th Krajina Corps of the army of the Republic of

 9     Serb Krajina?

10        A.   I think yes.

11        Q.   Were you aware -- were you there around the 4th or 5th of August?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   So you don't know what troops were garrisoned there at the time?

14        A.   No, I wasn't.

15        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter 2516, which is an ARSK document from the

16     7 Krajina corps command dated 27 July 1995.

17             If you scroll up, this is an order 27 July 1995 from a

18     Colonel Kozomara.  If you just look at paragraph -- this is an order

19     given to various entities within the ARSK 7th corps.

20             "I hereby order -- collect people in SVK barracks (northern

21     barracks, Benkovac barracks) conscripts who have their wartime assignment

22     should be sent to their war units, and those who do not have a wartime

23     assignment should be kept in the barracks and deployed as decided by the

24     corps commander."

25             Do you know anything about conscripts being gathered in the

Page 15059

 1     northern barracks towards the end of July?

 2        A.   No, I don't know.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'd like to offer into

 4     evidence 65 ter 2516.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection from the Prosecution.

 6             Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 8     Exhibit D1278.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D1278 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   Let us turn to the Tvik factory.  You noted for us during the

12     course of your discussions with Mr. Hedaraly that you had been at the

13     Tvik factory to conduct an economic survey of some fashion.  Is that

14     right?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   Okay.  And approximately when was that?

17        A.   Well, I went there on several occasions, in June and July and met

18     with the manager and his management team on each of the occasions.

19        Q.   Now, you met with your management team -- excuse me the

20     management team.  Do you recall the gentleman's name that you met with?

21        A.   No, I don't.

22        Q.   Let me show you a video, and I want to ask if you recognise any

23     of the individuals in this video.

24             MR. KEHOE:  If we could, this would be D949.  It's a RSK

25     television clip from the 3rd of September, 1994.

Page 15060

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it just to recognise persons?

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Just to recognise the person, but there is a question

 3     at the end that -- with regard to the dialogue that -- or the commentary

 4     that I would like to ask him about if he had a discussion about that

 5     dialogue, so it's a twofold purpose.  Recognition and also a basis of a

 6     further question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8                           [Videotape played]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I have -- I have no French translation.  Is

10     there ...

11             MR. KEHOE:  The transcript was sent this morning, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think we have a standing procedure that

13     one of the interpreters --

14             I hear from the French booth that they have not received a

15     transcript of this video.

16             MR. KEHOE:  My understanding from my court [sic] manager that a

17     transcript was e-mailed this morning.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then ...

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, it is suggested that you now immediately

21     send it by e-mail to the registrar who will then print it out for the

22     interpreters, and perhaps meanwhile we could deal with another subject

23     until this is all done.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  I believe it is it coming now, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but before it is printed and before it's

Page 15061

 1     distributed, that takes a while.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.

 3        Q.   We'll go back to this film, Mr. Hansen.

 4             Let me address you to a different topic, and that would be in

 5     D950.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Sorry, D950.  Yeah.

 7        Q.   This is an information or document entitled "Information" from

 8     the Ministry of Defence for the RSK dated 10 July 1995, and it's signed

 9     by Mile Suput, the deputy minister, and its dates, as you said, 10 July,

10     and I'm just reading the first paragraph:

11             "Due to the urgent need of constructing lethal devices to be

12     launched from an earth-bound rocket launcher and given the capacity of

13     the Tvik factory, a Knin tool factory, we have allocated part of the

14     production of certain products in cooperation with the Banja Metal

15     factory, Dvor Na Uni to the aforementioned factory."

16             Now, were you ever informed in July 10th after that or before

17     that that the Tvik factory was assisting in making parts for lethal

18     devices to be launched from an earth bound-rocket launcher?

19        A.   I was never informed about that.

20        Q.   So your discussions with -- if they were in July or thereafter,

21     in your discussions with the manager, he didn't tell you about it, nor

22     did he tell you it was contemplated.

23        A.   No.

24             MR. KEHOE:  I think is transcript is down, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do not know.  I was listening to the French

Page 15062

 1     translation finishing your last words Mr. Kehoe.  But apparently some

 2     other matter has upset you.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  I think that the transcript was not --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Transcript was not running.

 5             Yes, the transcript is not running -- do we have any -- let me

 6     see whether it's just the transcript.  No, we have -- the transcript is

 7     not running on --

 8             MR. KEHOE:  LiveNote.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... LiveNote.  I

10     suggest that we proceed as we did before; that is, that we will continue,

11     that we focus on the running transcript, and as soon as it brings us into

12     problems, that we'll then stop.  And that mean meanwhile, we ask the

13     technicians to see whether we can get LiveNote running on the other

14     system --

15             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... as well.  Then we

17     could proceed.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I think we're ready to go back to the

19     video, if I'm not mistaken which would be D949.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Before we do so, Mr. Kehoe, you put it to the witness whether he

22     was aware that the Tvik factory was assisting in, et cetera, et cetera,

23     which suggests that what we find in this document, which is already in

24     evidence, of the 10th of July, that allocation means that it is all

25     functioning already, which at least I have difficulties in understanding

Page 15063

 1     whether this is preparing for what has to happen.  There are -- proposals

 2     are mentioned.  So that is not entirely clear for me that the document

 3     tells us what you told the witness tells us, and I just want you to be

 4     aware that I'm still struggling with the document rather than being able

 5     to able to repeat what you said what it actually says.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President, and I have certainly read that

 7     into it, but maybe I just quote the actual document itself and --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  That would be probably are more expeditious.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You have asked the question whether he was informed,

11     and then you included another element that it was assisting, or that it

12     was ever -- I think you said a visit, or --

13             MR. KEHOE:  Discussed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Discussed.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That seems to follow at least from the text of

17     that document, so there I have no doubt in following you.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:  If I can make this question as accurate as possible,

20     and let me go back to the document.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness doesn't know anything about it, and

22     then, of course, and it appears that what he told us, that he had no

23     idea, then of course to take him through the documents and to do the

24     exegesis which, of course, the Chamber will have to do, but not

25     necessarily a witness who doesn't know anything about it.  Unless,

Page 15064

 1     Mr. Hansen, it's one of your hobbies in your spare time, but ...

 2             Let's proceed.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  Let's go back to the video.  And again this is

 4     on the 3rd of September 1994, and I recognise that you weren't there.

 5     It's D949, if we can.

 6                           [Videotape played]

 7             "Speaker:  Despite the four years of war and the imposed embargo,

 8     the state owned company Tvik from Knin has begun successfully resisting

 9     any hardship.  The commander of the Serb army of the Krajina,

10     Major-General Milan Celeketic, visited this company today along with his

11     associates.

12             "Reporter:  As part of his regular activities of visiting

13     commercial companies, the SVK commander Major-General Milan Celeketic

14     accompanied by his logistics assistant Major-General Mrksic Bjelanovic

15     and Colonel Dusan Smiljanic visited this morning the state owned company,

16     the screw factory Tvik in Knin.  While talking to the manager of this

17     company, Mr. Jugslav Pavlovic, the commander was informed about the

18     difficulties Tvik has been faced with under the conditions of war and the

19     blockade on the international market.

20             At the time of the war broke out, the Tvik factory had 3300

21     employees.  This number was reduced to 2300 employees today of which more

22     than 1.000 are conscript.  Still, Tvik manages to fulfil any obligations

23     towards the employees, the workers waiting to reassume their workplace

24     and the conscripts.  50 per cent of the this company's production was

25     designated for export, but today, it offers the cheapest product on the

Page 15065

 1     Yugoslav market.  Mr. Pavlovic, the manager of Tvik, has assured the

 2     visitors that once the borders are reopened and export is possible again,

 3     this company could reassume regular business operations.

 4     General Celeketic and Mr. Pavlovic also discussed the military production

 5     programme in Tvik.  After that, the commander and his associates visited

 6     the production facilities of this extremely important company."

 7             MR. KEHOE:

 8        Q.   Mr. Hansen, the gentleman at the Tvik factory that you went to

 9     talk about this economic survey, did you see him on this video at all?

10        A.   I don't remember his appearance.

11        Q.   Do you recall -- you don't recall his name?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   There is a line in the -- this production, and again I understand

14     it is September 1994 which reported that General Celeketic and

15     Mr. Pavlovic also discussed the military production programme in Tvik.

16             With the person that you spoke to that -- did he ever tell you

17     that ever had been a military production programme at the Tvik factory?

18        A.   No, on the contrary.

19        Q.   What did he say on the contrary?

20        A.   I said that it was an a nuts-and-bolts production that was halted

21     because of no access to markets.

22        Q.   Let us -- and I'm going to try to move through some topics

23     briefly, Mr. Hansen, so if I'm going too fast --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the sake of the record and

25     the interpreters, please.

Page 15066

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you are invited to slow down.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  My apologies to the Court and the interpreters.

 3        Q.   Mr. Hansen, when the shelling started at 5.00 a.m. in the

 4     morning, all the civilians that you were aware of went down to the

 5     basements of buildings, didn't they?

 6        A.   They did.

 7        Q.   Now, you were in your residence for a period of time, and then

 8     you went over to the EU ECMM headquarters.  Approximately what time was

 9     that?

10        A.   Around 9.00ish.

11        Q.   And you were there from 9.00 until when?

12        A.   Until the afternoon hours when we were evacuated by UN vehicles.

13        Q.   And approximately what time was that evacuation?

14        A.   I think it's -- it's about 3.00.  But it is entered in my diary.

15        Q.   And from the time the shelling began until your evacuation by UN,

16     those are the only two locations that you were in Knin.  Is that right?

17        A.   That is right.

18        Q.   And when you got into the APC about 5.00 -- excuse me, about 3.00

19     you drove to UN Sector South, right?

20        A.   That is right.

21        Q.   And while you were driving in this APC, you couldn't see

22     anything, could you?

23        A.   I could not.

24        Q.   I mean, I guess other than the feet of the people who were

25     driving the APC.  Is that right?

Page 15067

 1        A.   That is right.

 2        Q.   Did you leave any ECMM people behind when you got in the APC?

 3        A.   Affirmative.  Yes, we did.

 4        Q.   And who did you leave behind?

 5        A.   I think it was logistics staff.

 6        Q.   Do you recall a name?

 7        A.   No, I do not.

 8        Q.   Let me direct your attention to your diary, and this is 1292 at

 9     tab 21, the first page.  And it's, like, four paragraphs down.

10             Do you see the paragraph starts:  "The peace negotiations ..."?

11        A.   Well, it's --

12        Q.   You can go to the hard copy if you want.  I don't know if is

13     easier.  It's tab 21 in --

14        A.   It's coming now.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. KEHOE:  If we can just scroll down that a little bit.

17        Q.   You see that second-to-last paragraph there, "The peace

18     negotiations."

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   Okay.  And it says:

21             "How things look in the town, we don't know.  A patrol attempted

22     to reach the Ministry of Defence but was stopped by hysterical, angry

23     soldiers."

24             Now you were not on that patrol, were you?

25        A.   No, I was not.

Page 15068

 1        Q.   Do you know who was?

 2        A.   No, I didn't.  I do not, no.

 3        Q.   I mean -- whoever was on that patrol came back and informed you

 4     that they had run into hysterical and angry soldiers.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Let me show you another report, if I can, for the 5th, on D334.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  If we could -- this is a sitrep of 12.45 on the 5th.

 8     If we can turn down to point 6.

 9        Q.   The HV soldiers -- this is after the HV enters.

10             "HV soldiers appear to professional and are treating the civilian

11     population fairly.  I'm not so sure about any soldiers they meet on their

12     way through town, I saw three bodies that were not there on the way out.

13     All of these were ARSK soldiers."

14             I'd like you to compare that, sir, to Exhibit P1299, which is a

15     report from the 7th of August, 1995.  And if we could scroll down,

16     talking about Knin, and this is on the 5th.  As we move towards the --

17     you see that, says "a devastated Knin."  You see that, Mr. Hansen?

18        A.   I do.

19        Q.   It says:  "A devastated Knin with heavy infantry, and tank

20     fighting was going on.  About 30 dead bodies were seen on the street."

21             Now, the report that we had from 12.45 the earlier day had three

22     bodies, and when a summary report is put together two days later on the

23     7th, it is 30 bodies.

24        A.   Mm-hm.

25        Q.   Can you account for that discrepancy, or is that accountable

Page 15069

 1     because of some of the anecdotal stores you might have received?

 2        A.   I mean, I cannot verify this information, and it is not my

 3     reporting, so -- so I would have no explanation to the inflation or to

 4     the difference in the numbers.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now, you also note in your diary -- go back to page 3 of

 6     your diary.  Again, 1292 at tab 21.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the second page of that document.

 8     I'm sorry, just the third page.  This is all on the 5th.  Just scroll up

 9     a bit, sir.  Just a bit, yeah.  Okay.

10        Q.   This is on the 5th, sir.  And just going to that second

11     paragraph, it notes -- and the time entry here, sir, is -- you have 10.00

12     a.m.  That is what it has on the previous page, just to give you a little

13     reference point.  So there is a pause going on now.  What is happening

14     now, we don't know, but we use the pause to get our three colleagues to

15     the HQ.  It is risky driving through -- driving in the town, though.  RSK

16     soldiers are gradually retreating to the centre of town.  They shoot at

17     anything that moves, including us.  They are panicky with nowhere to go."

18             Now, did you observe this from the UN Sector South headquarters,

19     that the RSK was moving towards the centre of town?

20        A.   No, sir.  I mean, I have -- I have no recollection of this.

21        Q.   Well, would you -- would someone have told you that this was

22     going on?

23        A.   I -- I have no comment.

24        Q.   You just don't recall?

25        A.   No.

Page 15070

 1        Q.   So if we talked further about the fighting that was going on in

 2     Knin on the 5th, would you have any recollection?

 3        A.   I would not because I was simply not travelling at this point.

 4        Q.   Now, you note on this -- just to clear this up, if we go one page

 5     back to the 10.00 entry, the beginning of the 10.00 entry.  It's about

 6     six lines down:  "The real firing started at 5.00 this morning."

 7             Do you see that, Mr. Hansen?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   "The town was being completely hammered till about 9.00 a.m.,

10     then there was a pause before the shelling started again.  The firing

11     appears to be coming from the south, from Drnis area, and there is now

12     direct fire."

13             Do you know if that direct fire was coming from the ARSK?

14        A.   No.  Today, I don't know.

15        Q.   Now, just one last thing on this before we move on.  You do know

16     that -- or do you know that the HV units came in Knin from the north, not

17     the south.  Did you know that?

18        A.   At this point, I don't think I knew.

19        Q.   Okay, sir.  Fair enough.  I'd like to talk to you a couple of

20     things about some comments that you made in your statement beginning with

21     your statement in 1995 that -- I do believe that Mr. Hedaraly went

22     through with you, and that would be P1283 - thank you - on page 3, where

23     you talk about the -- the shelling of Knin.

24             Now, when you gave your statement or during this time or

25     thereafter, did you realize what the situation, military situation, was

Page 15071

 1     between the HV/HVO forces and the joint Serb forces in Bihac?  Did you

 2     have a knowledge about that?

 3        A.   In the early days of August, we did not have any knowledge of

 4     that.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So when you were looking at what was trying to be

 6     accomplished through Operation Storm, you -- that whole fact or what was

 7     going on with Bihac was not part of the equation.  Is that what you are

 8     saying?

 9        A.   That is true.  That could not be observed in any way from where

10     we were.

11        Q.   Well, I'm just talking about generally.

12        A.   Mm-hm.

13        Q.   Did you know that the Serbs were trying to take the Bihac pocket?

14        A.   Well, the Bihac pocket is a story in its own right, and for sure,

15     before, there had been attempts to take the pocket.

16        Q.   And did you --

17        A.   But I have no recollection of -- of knowing at this particular

18     time that the Serbs were trying to take the pocket.

19        Q.   Had they tried to take it in late July?

20        A.   I cannot say, sir.

21        Q.   Looking at Operation Storm itself, as you sit here now, did you

22     know what the breadth of Operation Storm was or how large an area it

23     covered?

24        A.   I mean, it would be fair to assume that it was about liberating

25     the Serb-held territories of Croatia.

Page 15072

 1        Q.   And the Serb-held territories in Croatia were in both Sector

 2     North and Sector South, weren't they?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And did you understand that the attack in Operation Storm was an

 5     attack that went on in both Sector North and Sector South?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, we did.

 7        Q.   Did you likewise understand that the attack in Knin was an

 8     attempt by the HV to neutralize the ARSK headquarters that was located in

 9     Knin?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So -- and as a military man with military experience, sir?

12        A.   Mm-hm.

13        Q.    Even as a reserve officer, you have a degree of military

14     training?

15        A.   True.

16        Q.   You realize that taking or neutralizing the ARSK headquarters in

17     Knin would jeopardize the entire ARSK operation throughout the Krajina?

18        A.   Absolutely.

19        Q.   Now, you likewise understand that this military operation was not

20     an attempt to destroy Knin but to -- and the Krajina but to reintegrate

21     it into Croatia?

22        A.   That is true.

23        Q.   Now, if we go to it item in here, you recognise that the damage

24     from the shelling was minor?

25        A.   True.

Page 15073

 1        Q.   And you note in your document that - if I can grab this here -

 2     what could be assessed to be -- this is on the fourth paragraph on page

 3     3:  "What could be assessed to be military targets, the ARSK

 4     headquarters, and the military bakery where it was not targeted."

 5             Do you mean barracks there?

 6        A.   I think it was a bakery.

 7        Q.   Where was the bakery; do you know?

 8        A.   Somewhere in downtown Knin.  I mean, it was a facility that

 9     produced, well, bread for the soldiers.

10        Q.   So as you sit here you have no knowledge that the headquarters of

11     the ARSK was hit at 5.00 in the morning?

12        A.   That is true.

13        Q.   Do you likewise know that the northern barracks and Senjak

14     barracks were hit?

15        A.   At this point in time, I'm not sure that I know it was not hit.

16        Q.   Are you saying you don't know one way or the other?

17        A.   I don't know if -- if it was hit, I was still not having any -- I

18     could not go anywhere.

19        Q.   Did you learn thereafter that the Senjak barracks, the northern

20     barracks, and the ARSK headquarters were all hit in the early morning

21     hours of the 4th?

22        A.   Well, after we were passing by, but see -- did not from where I

23     was see any noticeable damage.

24        Q.   Did you go in?

25        A.   No, we did not.

Page 15074

 1        Q.   Did you know, sir, that -- let me withdraw that.

 2             As a man with a military background, you would understand that an

 3     attacking force would attempt to neutralize the communication

 4     capabilities of the ARSK, would they not?

 5        A.   They would, yes.

 6        Q.   Do you know whether the HV, beginning on the morning of the 4th,

 7     directed their artillery towards the communication capabilities for the

 8     ARSK?

 9        A.   No, I have -- I don't know, but it was -- I mean, if I was to

10     assume, I would certainly assume that they did.

11        Q.   In page 4 of your diary, which is the -- P1292, page 4, the third

12     paragraph down, Sandra being your interpreter.  You see:  "Tells me

13     ...."?

14              "Sandra tells me about a friend, soldier friend, who was on the

15     front line and couldn't understand why he wasn't getting any information

16     through."

17             When she told you that, did you take that to mean, sir, that

18     there was in some fashion, a disruption of communication between soldiers

19     in the front line and some type of command structure?

20        A.   I took that as a -- as an indication of a total breakdown of --

21     of both communication and line of authority.

22        Q.   As you sit here today and you look at the attack on Knin, and

23     what you learned, you now recognise, do you not, that this was more than

24     any -- that this was a direct attack on a city that was subsequently

25     followed by soldiers coming in and taking the area?

Page 15075

 1        A.   True.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, could we ask the witness what he learned

 3     today and to what extent he is able to verify the accuracy of what has

 4     been put to him.  For example, did he learn that there were three bodies

 5     or 30 bodies before we ask him an impression about --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Because I'm not insisting on it.  I'm, of course, to

 8     some extent, putting a footnote to your question because the witness is

 9     here not to obtain new knowledge and information.  What we could ask him

10     is whether what was put to him, which is not the same as what he learned,

11     and it's my understanding that learning means learning what had happened,

12     and that is, of course, a rather complex matter.  But what was put to

13     him, whether that in any way changes the opinion he had formed on the

14     basis of his own observation on the assumption that was put to him is

15     reliable information.

16             Is that what you wanted to ask the witness?

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, and ultimately, Mr. President -- and I will just

18     put to him one last document on this score which is D389, which is the

19     intelligence assessment by the ARSK.

20        Q.   And this is -- just to show you, this is a report of the 4th of

21     August, 1995.  And the third, fourth paragraph down:

22             "Knin was attacked from Livanjsko Polje from several directions,

23     and by the time this information was drafted, between 200 and 300 rounds

24     of different calibres impacted on the town.  The first strike was carried

25     out on the building of the SVK General Staff, which suffered great

Page 15076

 1     materiel damage with the fleet of vehicles almost completely destroyed.

 2     Later the fire was transferred on the military barracks 1300 kaplara, the

 3     Tvik factory, the railway intersection, residential buildings in the area

 4     beneath the Knin fortress, et cetera."

 5             Now, going back to Judge Orie's question, based on -- not only on

 6     what you learned, but what you learned from the 4th on to today, as the

 7     purpose of what happened during this attack, does that change your

 8     opinion, sir, as to what the shelling -- the purpose of the shelling was

 9     and the purpose of the attack on Knin on the 4th and 5th of August?

10        A.   No.  There is no difference in opinion.

11        Q.   Let us shift subjects, sir.  And I'd like to talk to you a little

12     bit looting that you discussed.

13             And going through the -- some of the items, and I'll just pick

14     out some items that we -- you talked about.  And you talked about a

15     collection point next to the UN base.  Do you recall that, sir?

16        A.   I do recall that.

17        Q.   And you also talked about the -- there being some looting going

18     on with the individual soldiers in town.  Is that right?

19        A.   That is right, sir.

20        Q.   Now, let me show you P805.

21             You noted for us that you went out on the 7th of August.  Is that

22     right?

23        A.   That is right.

24        Q.   And we have a general situation at 2200 hours on the 7th, and it

25     notes that:  "Knin is now calm but with soldiers from the 4th and 7th

Page 15077

 1     Brigades still carrying out small-scale looting."

 2             Is that what you saw, sir, this small-scale looting as is

 3     reflected here by these soldiers?

 4        A.   I mean, we saw looting, and I would certainly -- with the wisdom

 5     of hindsight, I would not call it small-scale.

 6        Q.   That's what was written at the time.

 7        A.   By the two authors, sir.

 8        Q.   Let's turn to the next page.  5(b).  If we can go -- excuse me,

 9     yeah, it's 5(b).

10              "In Knin area it seems as if random looting and destruction of

11     houses and property is about to reach a degree where it will get even

12     more difficult to restart normal life here."

13             Comment:  "It is very unlikely that this is a deliberate policy

14     of the authorities.  It is more likely that as front line, more

15     disciplined troops are moving out.  The second-line soldiers are less

16     disciplined and more ready to grab what they can."

17             Now, again, that's an item that is done at the time by ECMM

18     monitors that were there.  Now, did you write -- did you review this

19     report at the time?

20        A.   No.  This is -- this report is written by the two gentlemen

21     mentioned on the front page.  And in a comment to -- to their assessment,

22     I would say that this is it probably a fair assessment at the time of

23     writing, which is on the 7th.  And I would also subscribe to the

24     assessment about the front line combat soldiers being changed or replaced

25     by a different breed of soldiers.

Page 15078

 1        Q.   And that's as early as the 7th, according to this report?

 2        A.   True.

 3        Q.   I'd like to talk to you about the organisational structure that

 4     you noted, and with the garage and trucks that were outside the UN

 5     facility?

 6             Now that you noted they were -- that various types of household

 7     goods, et cetera, TV sets, et cetera, were being brought to that

 8     location?

 9        A.   That's truce.

10        Q.   Now do you have, Mr. Hansen, whether those particular items were

11     being inventoried by the HV and put on a list?

12        A.   I don't know, sir.

13        Q.   Well, if you -- you don't know that.

14             Do you know whether the military police were seizing things and

15     likewise inventorying things that they seized?

16        A.   I don't know, sir.

17        Q.   And I ask you the same question for the civilian police.  Do you

18     know if they were, in fact, taking items or seizing items at check-points

19     and putting them in -- in inventory?

20        A.   I don't know, sir.

21        Q.   Well, would you agree with me, sir, that knowledge about specific

22     facts in that regard would be important in a determination by you or

23     anyone else as to whether a person or group of people were looting or

24     not?

25        A.   I would say that the magnitude of -- of the looting would

Page 15079

 1     somehow, in my assessment at least, exclude the production of an

 2     inventory of merchandise being ferried out of the area.

 3        Q.   You say, sir, that because you have not seen an inventory; isn't

 4     that right?

 5        A.   Because I find it unlikely that it was a managed and --

 6     operation.

 7        Q.   I understand.

 8             Now some of the -- you mention the going through Knin in town by

 9     the soldiers.  Some of the going through houses and towns is done by a

10     military in a clearing operation, isn't it?

11        A.   It is, yeah.

12        Q.   And that's a normal operation that a military or police entity

13     would do as they went through town?

14        A.   Sure.

15        Q.   Now, I'm going to shift gears but still stay on looting.

16             And I would like to talk to you about the waves.  I mean, you

17     said initially there was regular combat troops, and then soldiers came

18     after that, and then civilians.  And you noted for us that you believe

19     that the civilians didn't begin to come back until your return in

20     September.  Is that right?

21        A.   That was the first time I saw them, yes.

22        Q.   Let's explore that a bit.

23             MR. KEHOE:  If we can turn to P933.

24        Q.   This is a sitrep of the 9th of August, 1995, in the -- right

25     above military situation about a quarter of the way down:

Page 15080

 1             "It seems like Knin for the first time is becoming a big tourist

 2     attraction, extensive traffic was reported on the main road between Knin

 3     and Drnis."

 4             So civilians were, in fact, coming to the area as early as the

 5     9th, according to the ECMM reporting.  Is that right?

 6        A.   That is it right, and that is even my own report.

 7        Q.   Let us turn to the next page.

 8             "We saw the same development in Drnis.  A lot of civilians are in

 9     the city, and it seems they are looking for property that belonged to

10     them previously."

11             So, Mr. Hansen, what you're reporting is that civilians are there

12     on the 9th, and they believed that they have been victimised and that

13     property has been stolen, so they're going into other houses, such as

14     Serb houses, and taking back what is theirs.  Is that an accurate

15     assessment?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Objection.  That mischaracterizes the document.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take it, then, one by one.

19             Is your report about civilians that are there on the 9th,

20     Mr, Hansen?

21             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is your report about civilians that are there on the

23     9th?

24             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, that is my report.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And is the report about civilians that

Page 15081

 1     believed that they had been victimised?

 2             THE WITNESS:  That is true, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And that their property was stolen?

 4             THE WITNESS:  My understanding of this paragraph is that they are

 5     looking for property that belonged to them previously, property that may

 6     have been destroyed or -- I don't really know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Their own property or property left behind by others

 8     or ...

 9             THE WITNESS:  In this particular instance, it is property left

10     behind by others.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you were asked whether you reported about

12     property stolen, that you say it was -- perhaps was their property

13     stolen, but what they were taking back, might not have been their own.

14     Is that --

15             THE WITNESS:  That is correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Just staying with this, would this people who were taking

19     property that they believed belonged to them, or taking property that --

20     just to furnish their house that was empty, or both?

21        A.   I mean, I have no method to -- to make a direct correlation

22     between a person and a property and establish ownership.  And what we saw

23     as a general feature was that houses and apartments were broken into and

24     household items were removed.

25        Q.   Let us turn to P1289, which is another sitrep that I believe is

Page 15082

 1     yours, sir, from the 12th of September, 1995.  And maybe we can put a

 2     little bit more flesh on this.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go down to the end of paragraph 2.  Right

 4     there.  Right above human rights monitoring.

 5              "The readiness of the local authorities to receive DPs from the

 6     coast and individuals visiting Knin moving into houses and furnishing

 7     their new homes by looting neighbouring houses."

 8             So just staying with that, that was part of this too.  People

 9     going and just looting an empty house next door and bringing it into

10     their house, be they displaced people, or whatever.  Is that right?

11        A.   That is right.

12        Q.   And just going back with this, Mr. Hansen.  These civilians came

13     back almost right after the end of Operation Storm, didn't they?

14        A.   They did.

15        Q.   Now, let us turn out attention to -- to some of the items

16     concerning the burning, and I would like to just go through a couple of

17     incidents with you about this.  Because you -- you said some items --

18     some items with regard to this burning, you appear to say were organised.

19     And I would like to turn your attention to P933.

20             And P933, going to the military situation, and this is dated the

21     9th of August, 1995:

22             "In Biskupija five troops with a white Lada and a green Land

23     Rover were burning houses.  It was obvious that they were surprised to

24     see us."  Now, first of all, the Lada and the green Land Rover, did you

25     get a HV plate from this vehicle?

Page 15083

 1        A.   I would assume not, as it is not entered in the report.

 2        Q.   And these were --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   And these were five individuals that were dressed in camouflage

 7     uniforms, weren't they?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   Now, it notes in here that the -- "from the badges, we know they

10     belongings to Diverzantia, a special unit with skull insignia.  The unit

11     is attached to the 7th Brigade."

12             Now, where did you get the information that this Diverzantia was

13     connected to the 7th Guards Brigade?

14        A.   Today I have really no additional comment to -- to this

15     paragraph.

16        Q.   I mean, did you ever come to learn, sir, that there is no unit or

17     section that is part of the HV that has a skull and cross bones or is

18     called Diverzantia?

19        A.   I have learned that later, but at this the of writing, I was not

20     aware of that.

21        Q.   So you now know that Diverzantia is not part of the HV?

22        A.   I know now, yes.

23        Q.   Now, was this a, like a paramilitary unit?

24        A.   I don't know, sir.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 15084

 1             Let me turn your attention to another entity -- another incident.

 2     And that is this incident, I believe, that was discussed with

 3     Mr. Hedaraly at P830, which is this incident in Kosovo.

 4             This is a sitrep, P830 is a sitrep for 10 August 1995.  If we go

 5     to page 2, towards the bottom of page 2, if we can scroll down a bit.  We

 6     -- we have the reporting on this Kosovo incident:  "In Kosovo six

 7     uniformed soldiers were seen going from house to house setting fires."

 8             You talked about that during the course of your testimony on

 9     direct.

10             Now, if we look at P1290, which is your comprehensive report, you

11     report on this ...

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MR. KEHOE:  And if we go to page 6 of this document.

14             If we can go -- just scroll down toward the bottom of the page.

15        Q.   Now, in Kosovo -- do you see the bottom there, Mr. Hansen?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   You report:  "Six uniformed HV soldiers were wearing no unit

18     sign.  They were supported by HV pick-ups."

19             So what we have is a -- six individuals that were wearing

20     camouflage uniforms; right?

21        A.   Right.

22        Q.   Other than the camouflage uniforms, there's no indication that

23     they were part of the HV or operating as part of an HV unit, to

24     accomplish a specific task, was there?

25        A.   I cannot get that any closer.

Page 15085

 1        Q.   Well, the units that you saw out there, I mean we have six here,

 2     there's six soldiers in this Kosovo entry.  I mean, you never saw any

 3     soldiers in groups larger than six doing anything like burning, did you?

 4        A.   That's true.  They were always in small numbers.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And you never saw that, while they were doing this, some

 6     overall commander and some officer directing them to do A, B, and C, did

 7     you?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   Now, the next issue that we want to talk about just briefly,

10     and -- I mean, is -- when we look at this burning, I mean, you realize,

11     do you not -- and let me just give you a reference point.  Let's go to

12     P934.

13             If we can to the second page under humanitarian/human rights

14     matters:

15             "In A, team Split had a meeting with secretary of Split Zupanija

16     DP's association today.  They were informed that there were 200.000

17     displaced people in Croatia at the moment, of which the secretary hoped

18     half would be returning home to the newly freed territories within the

19     next three months."

20             So, Mr. Hansen, what we're talking about is approximately 100.000

21     displaced people coming back to the Krajina.  Isn't that right?

22        A.   From the information here, yes.

23        Q.   And they would -- these displaced people would be coming back to

24     not only the cities but to the countryside as well.  Weren't they?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 15086

 1        Q.   Well, prior to Operation Storm when you drove through the

 2     Krajina, you saw scores of burnt out houses, didn't you?

 3        A.   True.

 4        Q.   And that was in the rural countryside as well as in and around

 5     cities.

 6        A.   True.

 7        Q.   And you concluded, did you not, that these houses in the rural

 8     countrysides that had been burnt prior to Operation Storm were Croat

 9     houses?

10        A.   True.

11        Q.   So -- now based on that, as you sit here, Mr. Hansen, you can

12     conclude that at least some percentage of these displaced people that

13     were out at the coast, this 100.000, were going to come back to the

14     Krajina and some were going to live in the country side, weren't they?

15        A.   True, true.

16        Q.   Let me take you through a couple of these documents.  And go to

17     P935.  I'm going read you a couple of items together, and we can come to

18     one last conclusion.

19             P935 is a sitrep of 13th of August, 1995, of ECMM.  If we can go

20     to this third page, bottom of the third page.  Right before the end of

21     the page:

22             "Displaced people from hotels, caravan sites, along the coast,

23     and refugees from western Europe have been seeping back to visit their

24     original homes and some to stay [sic].  Representative of Split Zupanja

25     DP's association estimates that 100.000 DP's will return to the free

Page 15087

 1     territories."

 2             If we can turn to P2156.  This is a document that was referred to

 3     by Mr. Hedaraly.  Page 3.  I'm just going to go through these, reference

 4     these, Mr. Hansen, so you can take a look at them, and I will ask you a

 5     couple of questions in the interests of speed.  This is a daily

 6     monitoring report for 11/13th August.  If we can go to page 3.

 7             It notes in the centre of the page about how it is going to be a

 8     staged return of displaced people back to the Krajina.

 9             If we can go to P511.  P511.  This is 18 August.  Sitrep of

10     18 August.  If we go to the last page, economic and infrastructure.

11             "Today the rain and sheer lack of unburned houses meant that very

12     few fires were observed.  The fields are still left with nobody working

13     in them.  How the Croatians will harvest the crops is not yet known, and

14     it seems to become a large problem.  Or will they just let it rot [sic]

15     in the fields?  Will the DP become forced labour in the fields?"

16             Next one, P3 -- 937.  This is a sitrep of the 20th of August,

17     1995.

18             If we can go to the last page of P937.  Paragraph (d) there:

19             "DPs and refugees from Croatia and Europe are filtering back into

20     the area.  However, no infrastructure and destroyed houses makes

21     immediate habitation impossible ..."

22             P812, first page is sitrep, 23 August 1995, and they're talking

23     about Benkovac.

24             MR. KEHOE:  If we just scroll down a bit on that front page.

25        Q.   "The plan for Benkovac," B being Benkovac, "is to serve as an

Page 15088

 1     accommodation to DPs coming from the tourist areas.  These will be

 2     accommodated in tents, if necessary."

 3             And the last one we'll talk about before we get into it, this

 4     P953.  And this is it a sitrep from 9 October 1995.  If we go to the last

 5     page.  And interestingly it is an economic survey going back to the Tvik

 6     factory.  And there is discussions with the manager at Tvik, and then the

 7     comment at the end:  "Housing problem is paramount.  Nobody will come to

 8     work without this problem solved."

 9             So we can go through more of these, Mr. Hansen, but do you see

10     what the problem is:  There is burning of houses going on that you have

11     reported, and there's an inability to bring displaced people back into

12     the area because of the burnt houses, and they can't begin to work.  Is

13     that right?

14        A.   That is right.

15        Q.   And this is at a time when the Republic of Croatia is trying to

16     get the Krajina back on its feet economically and get the displaced

17     people away from the coast and back into their area.  Isn't that right?

18        A.   That is right.

19        Q.   Now, that was the overriding intent of the Republic of Croatia,

20     wasn't it?

21        A.   I would assume so.

22        Q.   Now with that intent, you understand that permitting people to

23     burn these house would essentially cut the legs off that entire plan to

24     bring all those people back to the Krajina, wouldn't it?

25        A.   I certainly follow your logic.  What I'm -- I mean, I'm not in a

Page 15089

 1     position to confirm that this logic was part of a plan.

 2        Q.   Well, let's take this one step further.  We're talking about

 3     that.  Let's talk, just in one last area, about the entire assessment

 4     that the burning of these houses is part of some effort to ensure that

 5     Serbs don't come back.  And it's sanctioned at the highest levels, and

 6     you say that in your 2008 statement at paragraph 30.

 7             Let us add yet another element to what we've just been talking

 8     about, and that is the power vacuum that was taking place.

 9             Now, my learned friend, Mr. Kuzmanovic, talked to you about an

10     individual sitrep - I don't think we need to go into it again - where the

11     HV moved so quickly it took the civilian authorities by surprise, and

12     they weren't quick enough to get there.  Do you recall that?

13        A.   I do.

14             MR. KEHOE:  For the record that is P830.

15        Q.   And putting the quickness aside, there would be some inherent

16     delay in getting set up, simply because the Republic of Croatia hadn't

17     been there for four years.  Isn't that right?

18        A.   That is right.

19        Q.   And likewise based on your assessment there, they had difficulty

20     getting police, enough police in the area, didn't they?

21        A.   They did have that problem, yes.

22        Q.   I mean, if we take a look at your comprehensive report and --

23     sorry, I'm missing a number here.  Your comprehensive report, 1290, at

24     page 12.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  It should be page 9 of the document; page

Page 15090

 1     12 on the upload.

 2        Q.   I mean, you note there that -- in the middle of the page that:

 3             "The Croatian civilian police presence in areas outside the main

 4     towns remains almost non-existent."

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   Now that was because they didn't have enough police, wasn't it?

 7        A.   Well, I think there is no dispute that there was power vacuum at

 8     this point in time.

 9        Q.   And the civilian authorities had to bring police that, when they

10     came to the area, had to ask ECMM monitors where things were, didn't

11     they?

12        A.   I -- I do not recall being asked that question from such a

13     person.

14        Q.   Let's go to the next page, then.

15             It should be page 10 in the document.  You see, "On the same

16     day," you see the first full paragraph?

17        A.   Yeah, I do.

18        Q.   "On the same day UN CIVPOL had it's first joint patrol with the

19     Croatian police.

20        A.   Okay.

21        Q.   "The two Croatian officers relied on UN CIVPOL to show them the

22     way since they are new to the area."

23        A.   Fair.  Very fair.

24        Q.   So we had not enough police, and the police that there were,

25     didn't even know how to get around.  And to add to the problems, if we go

Page 15091

 1     back to the very beginning here and we talk to P830, in the political

 2     matters that this is the 10th of August, when you had problems, when you

 3     had issues that you needed to be discussed, look what you write on the

 4     10th -- or the ECMM writes on 10th of August.

 5              "Political matters:  The political authorities of Knin have

 6     still not moved in.  There is no one to talk to."

 7        A.   No.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock, and I know that

 9     after the break, that we need time for a few matters, and Mr. Hedaraly

10     needs time for re-examination.  And you are fully aware of all that.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  When can I expect you in the next five minutes to

13     wrap up and to --

14             MR. KEHOE:  In the next five minutes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's my arithmetics, a simple one.  20 minutes

16     for the break.  All those assisting us need some time as well.

17             Mr. Hedaraly said he would need a bit of time.  Fortunately,

18     Mr. Cayley has taken care of some matters which may save some time.

19     There may be some questions from the Bench, and you said no problem in

20     concluding the testimony of this witness today, and we have 62 minutes

21     left, including the break.

22             MR. KEHOE:  I will wrap up, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

24             MR. KEHOE:

25        Q.   Mr. Hansen, you understand the dilemma in all of this.  These

Page 15092

 1     contradictory issues out there that can lead you to believe -- well, lead

 2     you to conclude, not believe, sir, lead to you conclude, that with this

 3     power vacuum and with criminal elements and with the revenge that you

 4     talked about, that there was no intent by the Croatian authorities to

 5     allow these crimes to take police, but that it simply took them a month

 6     to six months for them to get up and going to stop it.

 7             Isn't that as equally a plausible explanation of the things that

 8     you saw?

 9        A.   I mean, I would answer that in the affirmative and -- and, I

10     mean, you can you look at that from that answer also.

11        Q.   Mr. Hansen, thank you very much.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, thank you very much.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Can I just check one thing?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I would like to check one thing with you as

16     well.  Please.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could I ask you perhaps during the break to

20     find where in paragraph 30 of the 2008 statement i find, as you put to

21     witness, that it was -- that the burning of these houses is part of some

22     effort to ensure that Serbs don't come back and that it is sanctioned at

23     the highest levels, and you say that in your 2008 statement.

24             I see -- I've read paragraph 30, and I see something of

25     condoning --

Page 15093

 1             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  [Microphone not

 2     activated]  ... as well as his comprehensive report.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it's clear.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

 6             We'll have a break, and we will resume at 20 minutes past 6.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 6.00 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 6.22 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, any need to re-examination the

10     witness?

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, then do so.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

15        Q.   Good afternoon -- almost -- good evening now, Mr. Hansen.

16        A.   Good evening, sir.

17        Q.   I want to touch upon a few answers that you gave with Defence

18     counsel.  And I will take them in reverse order that thy occurred.

19             My first question is regarding the Diverzantia issue, and

20     Mr. Kehoe asked you whether you became aware at a later stage that the

21     Diverzantia was not part of the HV.

22             Now can you tell the Court when you became aware of that

23     information?

24        A.   Just a few days ago.

25        Q.   And in what context did you learn that?

Page 15094

 1        A.   In a conversation with you.

 2        Q.   That -- that I told you that the Diverzantia was not a HV unit?

 3        A.   Yes, as far as I remember.

 4        Q.   Did you also meet with Defence counsel prior to testifying here

 5     today?

 6        A.   I did, yes.

 7        Q.   And did they tell you that the Diverzantia was not part of a --

 8     of the HV?

 9        A.   Not as far as I remember.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             At transcript page 121, line 25 -- I'm sorry.  Before that, I

12     missed one.  Transcript page 139, lines 8 to 10, Mr. Kehoe asked you when

13     you were in the APC and going from the ECMM accommodation to the UN camp,

14     he asked whether you could see anything, and you said you couldn't except

15     for the feet of the soldiers.

16             Now, in your first statement, P1283, on page 3 of that statement,

17     you said that:

18             "En route to the UN HQ we passed the above-mentioned area, pure

19     residential and saw private houses still ablaze, among them also the

20     residence of the Orthodox priest."

21             And in your direct examination you testified that you saw that

22     house on that day, on the 4th of August, being hit by a shell, and you

23     marked it, if you remember, on the aerial photograph of Knin.

24        A.   True.

25        Q.   So can you please clarify for the court whether when you were in

Page 15095

 1     the APC, you could see something, and, if not, how did you see the house

 2     of the Orthodox priest being hit?

 3        A.   To the best of my knowledge, during the -- the trip where we were

 4     carried in an APC, I could not see anything, and -- and the first time I

 5     -- I have recollection of seeing damage is during our first trip to the

 6     ECMM office.

 7        Q.   Do you remember whether there was any windows in the APC, any

 8     small holes or windows you could look through?

 9        A.   Not as far as I remember.

10        Q.   Okay.  You were also asked about -- at 121, line 25, about the

11     meeting that had you with Mr. Gotovina.

12        A.   Mm-hm.

13        Q.   And in answer to one of his questions, you said that the

14     distinction between civilian and military was reflected in his answer to

15     your -- when you brought to his attention the looting and the burning and

16     other incidents that happened.

17             Now can you clarify for the Court what you meant by that

18     distinction between military and civilian responsibility?

19        A.   There is an underlying assumption that with this distinction

20     there is also a deferral of responsibility for what is going on.

21        Q.   I'm sorry, the word -- you said deferred responsibility?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And what did you mean by that?

24        A.   That the military chain of command would not at this point be

25     responsible for activities undertaken by non-military persons.

Page 15096

 1        Q.   And what did that mean for the responsibility for acts undertaken

 2     by military persons?

 3        A.   Well, then the natural assumption would be that uniformed

 4     personnel would be answerable for their conduct to the chain of command.

 5        Q.   Moving to P1290 your comprehensive survey which is at tab 19, I

 6     just want to clarify one thing.  You were asked a number of questions

 7     about the evacuation and the statements in their -- regarding that.

 8             I want you to look at the page numbered as 14.  In the upload it

 9     is it probably 16 or 17.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Seventeen.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

12        Q.   And at 4.1 it starts:  "Testimony ..."  And starting here this is

13     it something that your interpreter had prepared.  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yeah, that is a direct entry of hers, and it is not my wording.

15        Q.   And can you tell the Court how many pages is spanned by her

16     testimony?  Does go all the way through the next heading which is at page

17     20, number 5, of the document?

18        A.   That is true.

19        Q.   So everything in those pages, you simply got directly from her.

20     So have you no knowledge about the accuracy of anything in there.  Would

21     that be a fair statement?

22        A.   That would be fair.

23        Q.   Now, I want to move briefly to some answers you gave to my

24     learned friend Mr. Cayley, counsel for General Cermak.

25             And if you recall, he asked you a series of questions regarding

Page 15097

 1     the responsibility of Mr. Cermak, and he suggested to you that

 2     General Cermak was solely responsible for rebuilding and other similar

 3     endeavours.

 4             Do you remember that discussion you had with Mr. Cayley?

 5        A.   I remember that discussion.

 6        Q.   Thanks.

 7             Now, in your second statement.  Go to P12 -- your first -- I

 8     think it's your second statement, P1284, on page number 3, just going to

 9     wait for it to come up on the screen for everyone else.

10        A.   Yeah.

11        Q.   What's on the bottom of the screen, the middle of the screen, it

12     says:

13             "During your meetings with General Cermak, he at all times gave

14     the impression of being the person in charge for the situation in the

15     former UN Sector South."

16             Now, did Mr. Cermak ever tell you that he was not the person

17     responsible for what was happening in Sector South?

18        A.   No, he never informed us that he was not in charge.

19        Q.   Did he ever give the impression to you that he was not in charge?

20        A.   No, he did not.

21        Q.   Did he ever tell that you he lacked resources to perform his

22     tasks?

23        A.   No, he never told us directly.

24        Q.   Okay.  And -- now did you notify about Cermak about the crimes

25     that you and your fellow ECMM monitors had observed during your patrols?

Page 15098

 1        A.   Yeah, we informed him about the looting and the arsoning.

 2        Q.   And would it be fair to say that you notified him because you

 3     believed he could do something about that, about those crimes?

 4        A.   Yeah.  Well, he was our point of contact to the Croatian

 5     authorities.

 6        Q.   And at page 44 of the transcript, it says -- or it's not entirely

 7     clear on the draft transcript, but what I heard, and I'm sure Mr. Cayley

 8     will correct me if I'm wrong, is that part of why you thought he lacked

 9     authority was because nothing was done about what you were reporting to

10     him?

11        A.   That is it true.

12        Q.   So during your meetings with him, he gave you the impression of

13     being in charge, and then you saw nothing was happening, and that led to

14     you believe that, perhaps, he lacked that authority when you answered

15     Mr. Cayley's question?

16        A.   That is true.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  I have no more questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question for you, Mr. Hansen.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You were shown two reports relating to the 5th of

24     August, the one of which mentioned 30 dead bodies; whereas, the other --

25     and for the parties that was P1299.  Whereas the other, which was D334,

Page 15099

 1     mentioned three dead bodies.

 2             I, first of all, that second report indicates that it comes from

 3     RC Knin, and then SOO.  What does SOO exactly stand for?

 4        A.   That stands for senior operations officer.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in that report often the phrasing is, I saw;

 6     when I returned; when we did this.  Should I understand this report to

 7     reflect what a person saw, observed, wrote down; or is it a team report,

 8     is it -- is it a report of an individual character rather than a more

 9     general report?  How do I have to understand this?

10        A.   Yeah.  Well, it may be bad semantics, but I would assume that the

11     "I" would refer to the author of the report.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because you were asked whether there was any

13     explanation for the 30 against the 3.  I noticed that the 3 was what I,

14     in this report, observed.

15             Is there -- if one would explain the difference between the 30

16     and the 3 dead bodies by saying, Well, the 3 was what one what person saw

17     and reported.  Would you want to comment on that as an explanation which

18     would for whatever reason you would give me, not be -- could not be a

19     valid explanation.  I'm not saying it is a valid explanation, but would

20     disqualify as a valid explanation?

21        A.   I think at this point in time, I would not be able to explain the

22     difference in numbers, and therefore, I would somehow refrain from

23     speculating why one is referring to 30 and one is --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking to you speculate.  But if the 30 was

25     not a personal observation, but a report, and there was heavy fighting,

Page 15100

 1     30 bodies were seen on the street, whereas in other report we read, "I

 2     saw 3 bodies."

 3             I'm asking you whether there was any reason why you would, on the

 4     basis of your experience and knowledge, would disqualify such an

 5     explanation beforehand.

 6        A.   No, I would not, sir.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             I have no further questions to you.

 9             Any need for further questions?

10             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, just -- can I just raise one thing

11     outside of the presentation of the witness, if I may?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will ask the witness -- but before we

13     ask him to come in and out ...

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Nothing, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

16             Mr. Cayley.

17             Then, Mr. Hansen, may I ask you to just follow Madam Usher for a

18     second.  But we'd like to you remain stand by.

19                           [Witness stands down]

20             Mr. Kehoe.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President, as an officer of the court, and I

22     don't know if the witness was confused with what Mr. Hedaraly had to say,

23     but we did we did speak to the witness about the Diverzantia, about going

24     through books, and did this thing exist, et cetera.  So we did have a

25     discussion with him.

Page 15101

 1             I took it from the body language of Mr. Hedaraly that --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly apparently had no recollection that it

 3     was ever discussed with this witness.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I am fairly certain that we had not discussed that

 5     issue with the witness.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  All I'm saying to you, Mr. President, is in the

 7     spirit of candor to the Chamber, as we are required to do, I think the

 8     witness got confused, and I think he is conflating a discussion with

 9     Mr. Hedaraly with his discussion with us.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and who could mix the two of you up?

11             MR. KEHOE:  It's shocking, isn't it?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for --

13             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I just wanted to --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It doesn't come as a surprise after --

16             Could we ask the witness to return.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hansen, I just asked you return, first of all,

19     to tell that you there are no further questions for you; and, second, to

20     thank you for having come to The Hague and for having answered the many,

21     many questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.  And I'm happy

22     that you'll be able to return in time.  I wish you a safe trip home

23     again.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, could you please escort, Mr. Hansen,

Page 15102

 1     out of the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a few procedural matters, but for the first

 4     one, I would like to go into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15103











11  Pages 15103-15105 redacted. Private session.















Page 15106

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22             I'd like to deliver a decision, which is an oral decision on the

23     admission into evidence of P1072, P1073, and P1074.  Documents that were,

24     until now, marked for identification.

25             On the 3rd of November 2008, the Prosecution informed the Chamber

Page 15107

 1     and the Defence that in the course of Zeljko Zganjer's testimony, it

 2     would seek to admit into evidence, inter alia, three documents dated the

 3     25th of October, 1995, relating to investigations carried out on the

 4     alleged killings in Gosici, Varivode, and the area of Zrmanja.

 5             On the 12th of November, Zeljko Zganjer was cross-examined by the

 6     Gotovina Defence on these documents at transcript pages 11658 to 11659.

 7     The Defence advanced that the numbering on the documents originating from

 8     the criminal military police was not sequential, thus suggesting that

 9     they were fabricated.

10             Zeljko Zganjer was unable to give a explanation on the matter as

11     he did not know how the documents were numbered.

12             At transcript pages 11661 to 662, the Prosecution objected to the

13     Defence`s suggestion that the documents were fabricated.  The Prosecution

14     further argued that the Defence should have questioned Damir Simic, the

15     author of P1072 and P1073, and witness to these proceedings on the

16     authenticity of the documents.

17             Under Rule 89(C), the Chamber may admitted into evidence any

18     document that is relevant and probative.

19             P1072 is an operative plan signed by the criminal military police

20     official Damir Simic in respect of the Zadar's district state attorney's

21     request to conduct investigations into the alleged killings in Gosici

22     Varivode, and the area of Zrmanja.  The work plan indicates that by

23     8.00 a.m. on the 25th October, 1995, the addresses of certain suspects

24     had to be asserted.  P1073, also dated the 25 October, 1995, is an arrest

25     warrant for two of the suspects.  The arrest warrant contains the

Page 15108

 1     addresses of two of the suspects.

 2             P1074 is a search warrant dated the 25th of October, 1995, for

 3     one of the suspects's living quarters.  The search warrant also mentioned

 4     this suspect's address.

 5             P1072, P1073, and P1074 are relevant to Counts 1, 6, and 7 of the

 6     indictment; that is, the charges of persecution and murder.

 7             The Chamber notes that the P1073 and P1074 carry the document

 8     numbers ending with 45 and 46, respectively.  And that P1072 carries a

 9     document number ending with 51.  The numbering on the documents suggest

10     that P1072 was written after P1073 and P1074.  However, P1072, which was

11     issued on the same date as the two other documents, indicates that, by

12     8.00 a.m., on the 25th of October, 1995, the addresses of certain

13     suspects still needed to be ascertained; whereas, P1073 and P1074, which

14     expressly cite a suspect's address, indicate that this address had

15     already been ascertained by the time P1072 was written.

16             The Chamber observes that it could well be that the documents

17     were numbered at a later stage, much after they were written, and that

18     the officer in charge of the numbering simply numbered P1073 and P1074

19     before he or she numbered P1072.

20             The Chamber further notes that all documents tendered have been

21     signed, and two of them have been stamped.  Considering this, and having

22     no further indication as to the documents' lack of authenticity, the

23     Chamber finds that P1072, P1073, and P1074 are probative and admits them

24     into evidence.

25             The Chamber will take into consideration the arguments raised by

Page 15109

 1     the Defence when ultimately assessing the wait to be attributed to these

 2     documents.

 3             The Chamber requests that the Registrar change the status of

 4     these documents in e-court accordingly; that is, instead of MFIed,

 5     admitted into evidence.

 6             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

 7             The next -- one second, please.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The next issues are the submissions on the five

10     questions.

11             The Prosecution has given an answer to the first question, more

12     or less, by giving a schedule for the witnesses to be called.  There are

13     a few days where we're not sitting, 5th and 6th of February, for example,

14     and that finally with all uncertainties you have in these scheduling

15     matters that the Prosecution expects to close its case late February.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Your Honour, it is an -- it's a hopeful

17     expectation.  Obviously, there's a lot of uncertainties as we have

18     outlined, but we are hopeful that it will be by the end of February.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will certainly assist you in

20     making this hope coming into fulfilment, Mr. Hedaraly.

21             That's an answer to the first question of the five questions that

22     were put to the parties on the 15th of January.

23             We meanwhile received a written submission which I will put on

24     the record, but just by reading it, Mr. Cayley, you are answered on

25     behalf of all of the Defence teams, although you left it open that this

Page 15110

 1     joint submission could be followed by more specific submissions by each

 2     of the Defence teams.

 3             The answer to question 2 was that the Defence would need one

 4     Court day for each team for Rule 98 bis submissions.

 5             The answer to question 3 was that the Defence would need 20

 6     working days after the end of the OTP case to the Rule of 98 bis

 7     submissions, so in order to prepare for these submissions.

 8             The answer to question 4 was that the Defence teams would need

 9     60 working days between the Rule 98 bis submissions and the commencement

10     of the Defence case.

11             And the answer to the fifth question was that the Defence cases

12     would go in the order of the accused on the indictment.

13             Before I give an opportunity to the parties to add anything, let

14     me be very clear.  The Chamber has considered the answers, does not give

15     a final ruling on the matter; that would be too early.  But as matters

16     stand now, thought that it might assist the Defence to receive from the

17     Chamber, and most likely you will receive it from one minute from now on

18     your e-mail, a statistical analysis, I think, of the last 10 to 12 cases

19     and invites the Defence to come up with more realistic plans.

20             If you look at them, you'll see that often five, six, seven days

21     between the close of the case and -- we're not blind and deaf.  For

22     special circumstances, of course, some of the -- what happened in

23     previous cases was also influenced by very special circumstances.

24     Sometimes a long period of time was including, for example, a recess.

25     But the Chamber is not heading for final Scheduling Order which would

Page 15111

 1     bring the start of the Defence cases almost beyond the summer recess.

 2     That is not something that the Chamber is seriously considering at this

 3     moment.

 4             So the Defence is invited to -- first of all, to read the e-mail

 5     that will be sent by the legal officer of the Chamber, and then to come

 6     back with other suggestions.

 7             I don't think at this moment there is any further need -- of

 8     course, if you like to add something to your new suggestions or point at

 9     specific circumstances, then, of course, the Chamber will take notice of

10     that.

11             Then, Mr. Misetic, I would like to give you an opportunity, but

12     in private session, to raise a matter you said you wanted to raise.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15112











11  Pages 15112-15114 redacted. Private session.















Page 15115

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21             Although I intended to deal with a few outstanding MFI matters, I

22     will not do that because time is too short.  I again apologise for the

23     interpreters, transcribers, but also I'm aware that security and others

24     are also affected by this.

25             The parties should keep themselves ready to deal with the MFI

Page 15116

 1     issues where I said responses by Friday.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Just because it is related to the witness,

 3     Mr. President, the diary, I don't know if there is a decision.  We can

 4     wait till Monday.  But if there is one, if we could just -- now that the

 5     witness is gone.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness -- to admit it or not?  We'll do

 7     that, whether he is gone or not.  I mean, it's there, you -- there are no

 8     submissions, Mr. Kehoe, in relation to the way in which it was

 9     transcribed.  Then we'll deal that as well on Monday briefly.

10             I take it that the MFI list will need another ten minutes of

11     attention at this moment.

12             We adjourn, and we'll resume on Monday, 26th of January, 9.00, in

13     the morning, Courtroom II.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of

16                           January, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.