Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15297

 1                           Wednesday, 28 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             The late start is caused by a late finish by the Chamber that

13     previously used this courtroom.

14             Mr. Lausic, I'd like to remind you again that the solemn

15     declaration that you gave at the beginning of your testimony still binds

16     you.

17             Mr. Tieger, are you ready to continue?

18             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

19             One quick housekeeping matter, Your Honour.  There was an issue

20     raised yesterday concerning P877.  I'm advised that the translation in

21     e-court is indeed the revised translation.  I, unfortunately, had the

22     previous translation.  Should I have occasion to refer to it again, I now

23     have the revised translation that, as indicated, is in fact in e-court.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I looked at the portions quoted and do not

25     think that there`s specific reason to revisit those questions again.

Page 15298

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           WITNESS:  MATE LAUSIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lausic.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   Mr. Lausic, yesterday there were some questions and some

 9     testimony concerning the reporting system and to both the police -- the

10     military police administration and to the Military District Commanders.

11     I think beginning at page 15245, you began speaking about the

12     organisational form that was set up in the operational duty section and

13     the daily reports issued, and I believe there was an invitation to show

14     you such reports.

15             MR. TIEGER:  So I'd like to call up D1069 and ask that it be

16     placed on the screen.

17        Q.   Mr. Lausic, the document that will come up on the screen is not a

18     document that, to my knowledge, was presented to you before, although you

19     may or may not be familiar with it, so I'll ask you to look it over now.

20        A.   It is correct I see this document for the first time.

21        Q.   It is a daily report for 2 September 1995 from the Split Military

22     District, military post 2233, duty service.  The Ministry of Defence

23     military police administration, operations department, stamp appears on

24     it below.

25             MR. TIEGER:  And if we turn to page -- to the back of the

Page 15299

 1     document, basically, beginning at page 3 of the English and continuing,

 2     and the back of the document in Croatian, we see the indications of where

 3     that document was sent; number one, operations duty department of the

 4     military police administration; two, Split Military District Commander,

 5     and then some other addressees.

 6        Q.   Mr. Lausic, is --

 7        A.   I apologise.  Could we please zoom in so that I could read the

 8     letters on the screen.  Thank you.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  And in the English, if we could turn to page 3, at

10     the bottom of page 3.

11        Q.   Now, my question, Mr. Lausic - and certainly, if you need

12     additional time to look at the document, you will certainly be permitted

13     to do so - is that an example of the daily reporting to which you were

14     referring yesterday?

15        A.   That is correct.  This is a standard report which was to be

16     submitted every day until 2400 hours at the latest to the duty operations

17     section in Zagreb, based on the reports from the military police.

18             Based on this report, the duty officer at the administration

19     comprised daily bulletins which would early in the morning be distributed

20     to the highest level within the Ministry of Defence, as well as to the

21     office of the President, the chief of the Main Staff, as well as other

22     most senior officials.

23             This report used a standard template, which covered some specific

24     military police segments.  As I can see, some parts of the report mention

25     no specific events, whereas some others do, and I can see that also one

Page 15300

 1     other standard item is present, and that is that that the military police

 2     was duty-bound to send this on a daily basis.  According to the format,

 3     the chapters included, and the language used, this was a standard type of

 4     reporting that was in force during those several years, which partially

 5     included the war years.

 6        Q.   And if I could show you one additional document.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  That would be 65 ter 3343.

 8        Q.   This is a document dated 15 November 1995 from Commander Colonel

 9     General Gotovina, signed for him, to the attention of military police

10     post 2233, the commander Colonel Budimir, and the subject is:  Submission

11     of reports warning.

12             The beginning of the document states:

13             "It is the everyday practice that the daily reports of the duty

14     service of the military post 2233 arrive in the operations centre of the

15     Split Military District Command, Knin forward command post, with delay."

16             It goes to on to explain that one of the reasons for that delay

17     is the fact that the reports are addressed to the Split Military District

18     Commander, and:

19             "... since there is no need for that and in order to enable the

20     officers who process the unusual incidents in the area of responsibility

21     of the Split Military District to finish their job on time, I am asking

22     you to address the daily reports to the operations centre of the Split

23     Military District Command."

24             And again --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

Page 15301

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Lausic, I wanted to ask you if that is a reference to

 3     and reflection of the daily reports which were sent to the Military

 4     Districts by the military police to which you referred yesterday?

 5        A.   Could you please be more specific, since I am not clear as to

 6     what I should focus my response on.  This is a warning.

 7        Q.   Yeah.  The -- just -- I'm looking at the reference to:  It is the

 8     everyday practice that the daily reports of the duty service of the

 9     military post 2233, et cetera.  Is that a reference to the types of daily

10     reports that you were speaking about yesterday that were sent to the

11     Military Districts?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Mention is made here that it is everyday

13     practice for the daily reports of the duty service of the military post

14     2233, which was the second [as interpreted] MP battalion, and that those

15     arrive in the operations centre of the Split Military District Command,

16     Knin forward command post with delay.

17             Some reasons are specified for those delays, and an order is

18     issued to address those reports to different addressees that some changes

19     be made therein.

20             There was no dispute about those daily reports arriving on a

21     daily basis.

22             MR. KAY:  Can I just say something?  The transcript says "second

23     MP Battalion".  I think it should be 72nd MP Battalion.  I'm sure

24     Mr. Tieger would agree.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I think that's right, although my experience is that

Page 15302

 1     sometimes the -- what appears initially here is quickly corrected by the

 2     stenographer, but I think Mr. Kay is quite right.

 3             MR. KAY:  It was how it was translated.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I think it was said in English.  It is not

 5     a transcribing issue, but it's, rather, either the way in which the

 6     witness expressed himself or a translation issue.

 7             But I take it that you referred to the 72nd Battalion rather than

 8     to the 2nd.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please continue.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President, and I'm grateful to Mr.

12     Kay.

13             Can we call up 65 ter 1334, please.  I'm sorry, Your Honour, and

14     maybe it is an appropriate time, then, to tender 65 ter 3343.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is not yet on your list then.

16             MR. TIEGER:  It's on the list, but we can wait.  However -- we

17     can either handle it now or wait to have them tendered in bulk.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  On your list.  Perhaps I should be more specific.

19     Was it -- --

20             MR. TIEGER:  It was not on the -- on the 92 ter list.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  But it was on the spreadsheet in which

22     you have the exhibits indicated you intend to use.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

25             No objections.  Mr. Registrar.

Page 15303

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P2194.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 4             And, Mr. Registrar, could I ask again, then, for 65 ter 1334.

 5        Q.   Mr. Lausic, the document now coming up on your screen is an order

 6     dated 30 October 1995 from General Gotovina to various units, including

 7     the 72nd Military Police Battalion as indicated at the end of the

 8     document.  It begins that:

 9             "Due to the observed irregularities in the manner of reporting

10     unusual events to the superior command by units and the violation of the

11     chain of command in the command and control system, for instance, on 29

12     October 1995, when the duty officer of the 72nd Military Police Battalion

13     first reported the fire in the military facility in Strmica to the COR at

14     the Croatian army Main Staff rather than to the Split Military District

15     operation centre, Knin forward command post ..."

16             And then it goes on to order that the duty officer of a unit is

17     obliged immediately to report by telephone any unusual incident and send

18     an interim report within two hours, and so on.

19             Now, Mr. Lausic, does this refer to the reporting -- to the daily

20     reporting system that you referred to yesterday and that was reflected in

21     the documents, the two documents we just looked at; or is the reference

22     to the reporting of unusual events a reference to another form of

23     reporting events that take place in the Split Military District?

24        A.   What we have here is not reporting to a higher level in the

25     structure of the military police.  Rather, the duty officer of the 72nd

Page 15304

 1     MP Battalion reported of this event, that is, the fire, to the centre of

 2     operational command of the Main Staff rather than contacting the forward

 3     command post of the Military District of Split that was in Knin.  He did

 4     not get in touch with the duty operations section of the administration.

 5     He contacted the Main Staff, that is to say, a level within the armed

 6     forces.  The administration of the military police, as such, was part --

 7     a part of the Ministry of Defence.  It was a different line of reporting.

 8     He did not use the line of reporting inside the military police.  What we

 9     are discussing here was the structured line of reporting that existed in

10     the armed forces.

11        Q.   In this instance, the unusual event appears to be a fire.  Would

12     the occurrence of crimes, including looting and burning --

13             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm going to object, and I ask that

14     the fire -- where the fire took place I think is going to be important,

15     so if it's put to the witness, that it be put fully to him.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Sure.

18        Q.   Mr. Lausic, as I read the preface to the order, the unusual event

19     in question appears to be a fire in the military facility in Strmica, and

20     my question was whether or not the occurrence of crimes by members of the

21     HV would also be included as unusual events that would be reported?

22             MR. MISETIC:  I'm going to object as to the vagueness of the

23     question, Mr. President.  Unusual events in what context?  The witness

24     has explained this is not a military police issue, and what regulation

25     are we referring to, what reporting system, concerning what events?

Page 15305

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may answer the question.  The objection

 2     is denied.

 3             Could you please answer the question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 72nd MP Battalion, much as any

 5     other unit within the Military District of Split, was duty-bound to

 6     report to the operations centre of the Military District of Split on any

 7     extraordinary events which took place in the unit.  That was the vertical

 8     structure of reporting that was to be used, since one of the military

 9     units -- or, rather, since that military unit would be part of the

10     Military District of Split.  The duty office of the 72nd Battalion was

11     supposed to report on all activities of the 72nd Battalion as a military

12     police unit to more senior levels following the vertical structure of the

13     military police.  That is to say, they had to report to the military

14     police administration in Zagreb.  If one were to look for their reports

15     of the duty office of the 72nd MP Battalion, in particular such reports

16     for the 30th of October, 1995, that was sent to the duty office of the MP

17     administration in Zagreb, probably, among other events or possibly in

18     another chapter of the formatted report, we would also come across this

19     particular event.

20             The 72nd Battalion had two lines of reporting:  towards the Split

21     Military District and their operations centre and towards the military

22     police administration.

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   And just to round out that answer, Mr. Lausic, you said that the

25     72nd Military Police Battalion, much as any other unit within the

Page 15306

 1     Military District of Split, was duty-bound to report to the operations

 2     centre of the Military District of Split on any extraordinary events

 3     which took place in the unit; would crimes or the observation of crimes

 4     or the awareness of crimes be considered such an extraordinary event?

 5        A.   Could you please be more specific?  Do you understand by this the

 6     offences which took place within the establishment units of the 72nd

 7     Battalion, that is to say, their members - for example, if there were any

 8     cases in the 72nd Battalion of suicide, homicide, theft, or whatever - or

 9     does this concern the military policemen of the 72nd Battalion when

10     exercising their duties in contact with other members of the Military

11     District of Split?  If a member of the 72nd Battalion committed suicide

12     or if there was a homicide or theft, that would be an extraordinary event

13     to be reported to the operations centre of the Military District of

14     Split, using a special format of reporting and provided that it took

15     place in the facilities where the battalion was billeted.  Everything

16     else would be covered in the regular type of reporting sent to the MP

17     administration, and among other addressees, those reports went to the

18     Split Military District as well.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour, if I can have just one moment.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Okay, Mr. Lausic, if I could turn you back to your diary.  That's

Page 15307

 1     P2166.  And I'd like to direct your attention first to an entry of

 2     August 8th, 1995.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  That's on page -- I'm not sure which references are

 4     most helpful to the registrar, but page 37 of the English and page 33 of

 5     the Croatian.

 6        Q.   And toward the bottom third of the page, we see the following

 7     entry:

 8             "The tasks of these reinforced patrols are, A, to arrest and/or

 9     destroy enemy groups and/or individuals on patrol directions; B, to

10     prevent commission of crimes by HV members on patrol axes in case of

11     interventions to hand over detained HV members to the local VP, military

12     police unit."

13             And an entry below:

14             "0800 hours, General Cervenko - informed with the situation!"

15     With an exclamation point.

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   Mr. Lausic, what was it that General Cervenko was informed of on

18     that date?

19        A.   We have to go back to the beginning of the document.  My notes

20     say that I got a call from Major Juric at 7.45.  He was the officer in

21     charge of the forward command post of the MP administration attached to

22     the Military District of Split.  He informed that the minister's order on

23     the -- securing the storage depots was implemented.  Then Brigadier

24     Biskic specified that the depot was handed over to -- by the 72nd Company

25     of the military police.  He also reported on the tasks that are underway

Page 15308

 1     at that point in time.

 2             I can't recall exactly whether this was a short briefing with my

 3     deputy, whereupon I issued these tasks to him.  I believe that is what

 4     happened.  Yes, I think I was issuing those tasks to my deputy.  These

 5     are the tasks I wanted to see implemented.

 6             In item 1, commanders, at the IZM of the 73rd, 72nd, then we have

 7     Major Juric, Major Cvitanovic, Colonel Kozic, they were to carry out all

 8     military police tasks in their zones of responsibility with the existing

 9     formations.  I also ordered that the UVP reserve forces, that the 66 VVP

10     be used to --

11        Q.   Yeah, I think you're reciting in some detail the -- all of the

12     issues that are reflected in the diary entry, but my question was a bit

13     more specific than that, and that is that the diary entry indicates that

14     General Cervenko was informed of the situation, and, indeed, there is an

15     exclamation point after that, which indicates, at least grammatically,

16     that there was something significant about that, so I just wanted to ask

17     you if you could recall the situation that General Cervenko was informed

18     about.

19        A.   That is why I was reading, trying to see what was it that

20     preceded this note that General Cervenko was informed of the situation.

21     I was trying to jog my memory.  I obviously acquainted him with the fact

22     that the reserve forces, that is to say, the 66th Battalion was used to

23     form ten groups as security for protected persons and delegations since

24     some protected persons and ambassadors were going to the liberated

25     territory.  Then the three combat groups were formed with combat vehicles

Page 15309

 1     to go to the liberated territories in order to prevent crimes, et cetera,

 2     et cetera, and this is what the chief of the Main Staff was informed

 3     about, what the measures were undertaken by me, to improve the situation

 4     with law and order in the liberated areas, and to prevent crimes.  This

 5     is it.  I was reading the passages in order to jog my memory on what it

 6     was exactly that I informed General Cervenko of.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'm about to turn to another entry in

 8     the diary, but Ms. Henry Frijlink reminds me that I did not tender 65 ter

 9     1334.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

11             Mr. Registrar, the number to be assigned to 1334 would be ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2195, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Mr. Lausic, I'd like to direct your attention next to a diary

16     entry a couple of days later for the 10th of August, 1995, and that's at

17     page 39 of the English, page 35 of the Croatian.

18             And specifically, Mr. Lausic, I'd like to direct your attention

19     to an entry at the -- at the bottom of page 39 in English and also the

20     bottom of the page in Croatian that's now on the screen.

21             And that indicates that at 2100 hours, there was a telephone call

22     from senior Lieutenant Matanic, commander of the 71st Military Police

23     Battalion, and the entry indicates:

24             "Informed that the commander of Gospic Military District, Staff

25     Brigadier Mirko Norac, ordered the arrest of a larger group of members of

Page 15310

 1     one battalion of the 118th Brigade, a Home Guard Regiment, who refused to

 2     follow orders and go to the battlefield in the direction of Gornji

 3     Vakuf."

 4             Goes on to note that following consultations with Staff Brigadier

 5     Obradovic and personally with Staff Brigadier Norac, it was decided not

 6     to carry out the arrests but, instead, to let the tension die down.

 7             And I simply wanted to ask you if that was a reflection of one of

 8     the powers of the Military District Commander to order the military

 9     police to arrest members of the Croatian army who have committed or are

10     suspected of committing a crime?

11             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, I'm going to object again.  If he can

12     cite the crime that has been committed there.  I think we're talking

13     about two different things here.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I was, for a moment, distracted because I had to

15     sign five decisions.  Therefore, I read the ...

16             The objection is denied.  The witness can answer the question.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my diary, I noted down here that

18     at 2100 hours, the commander of the 71st Battalion of the military police

19     called me up and conveyed to me the order he had received from Staff

20     Brigadier Mirko Norac who ordered the arrest of a large group of members

21     of a battalion of the 118th Home Guard Regiment who had refused to go in

22     the direction of Gornji Vakuf.  So this was not a crime but, rather, a

23     breach of military discipline, the refusal to follow orders.  As a large

24     number of members of the Home Guard Regiment were involved and there was

25     a lot of tension, I contacted the operations centre of the Main Staff of

Page 15311

 1     the Croatian army with the then-duty officer of the operative centre, and

 2     that was Staff Brigadier Mate Obradovic.  I also contacted Staff

 3     Brigadier Mirko Norac, who was the commander of the Gospic Military

 4     District, and it was decided that these persons should not be deprived of

 5     their liberty but that, rather, tensions should be alleviated because

 6     using a means of coercion would lead to trouble, but that, rather, the

 7     chain of command should be alerted so that there was no large-scale

 8     arrest of these soldiers.

 9             But this was not about a crime.  It was about refusal to carry

10     out orders.  That's a breach of military discipline.

11        Q.   Okay.  And let me explore that with you further.

12             Had the occurrence in question been the commission of arson - the

13     burning of houses, for example - would Brigadier Norac or any or Military

14     District Commander have the power to order the military police to

15     intervene?

16        A.   Certainly.

17        Q.   Mr. Lausic, yesterday I believe there was reference to a couple

18     of entries in your diary on the 13th and 15th concerning a top-level

19     operational meeting.

20             Let me first turn to an entry on the 11th, which was the first

21     reference I saw to that impending meeting.  That's on page 64 of the

22     English, 58 of the Croatian.

23             And just looking quickly at the entry under Mr. Moric's name, it

24     indicates that on the 13th of September, 1995:

25             "At 1000 hours in the Republic of Croatia MUP, top-level

Page 15312

 1     organisational meeting on the cooperation between MUP, military police,

 2     and Military District Commanders on the prevention of unlawful acts of

 3     torching, mining and looting in the newly liberated area."

 4             So I take it that was a reference to the anticipated meeting on

 5     the 13th, which was briefly discussed yesterday?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.  Here, I say the assistant minister of the MUP;

 7     that means that we talked on the phone.  Most probably, he rang me up,

 8     and these are bullet points as to what we agreed on, which was that on

 9     the 13th of September at 9.00 we would hold a top-level operational

10     meeting on the cooperation between MUP, VP, and ZP commanders and the

11     prevention of unlawful acts of torching, mining, and looting in the newly

12     liberated area, that it was necessary for us to gather incoming data by

13     zones of responsibility, and then that a joint inspection would be

14     carried out at the highest level; I would go, my deputy, he with his

15     assistants, Mr. Moric with his assistants, and through the chief of the

16     Main Staff of the Republic of Croatia we would ask for approval to -- to

17     participate and be engaged at a meeting of commanders of the following

18     districts:  Zabre [phoen], Karlovac, Gospic, and Split, and then a -- a

19     summons arrived for the analysis of Operation Storm.

20             What it says here, Brigadier Biskic, means that I informed

21     Brigadier Biskic of this.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's turn to the -- your notes from September 13th at

23     that meeting, then, and I wanted to look specifically at the comments by

24     Mr. Moric at that meeting.

25             And beginning at the third indicated paragraph, you indicate that

Page 15313

 1     Mr. Moric said:

 2             "We must implement measures that will guarantee implementation in

 3     the field of that which has been agreed upon on the higher level.

 4             "The line of command is not operational since on the level of the

 5     Military District they believe that they are either misinformed or that

 6     things are misrepresented or misinterpreted.  We must make sure military

 7     commanders know the truth.

 8             "We must coordinate the activities of the military and civilian

 9     police, and the military commanders must know the truth and undertake

10     preventative measures.

11             "On 22 August 1995, it was decided that 'the line be drawn' and

12     that we start with a new method of work.

13             "We must find a way to have the civilian and military police work

14     hand in hand."

15             Mr. Lausic, can you tell us what Mr. Moric was referring to when

16     he said:

17             "The line of command was not operational since on the level of

18     the Military District they believe they are either misinformed or that

19     things are misrepresented or misinterpreted."

20             MR. MISETIC:  I'm going object, Mr. President.  For the record,

21     the Prosecution had the opportunity to call Mr. Moric and decided not to,

22     and to now ask this witness to speculate about what Mr. Moric meant I

23     think is improper.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I think, Your Honour, that is a clearly improper

25     objection at least in the context of an examination of this witness.

Page 15314

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  This objection should not have been made when the

 2     witness hears the objection.

 3             The objection is denied.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Lausic, if could you answer that question, please.

 7             Do you need me to ask that again?

 8        A.   Could you please repeat your question because I really didn't

 9     understand it.

10        Q.   Mr. Lausic, can you tell us what Mr. Moric was referring to when

11     you said:  "The line of command was not operational since on the level of

12     the Military District they believe they are either misinformed or that

13     things are misrepresented or misinterpreted."

14        A.   I really couldn't answer that question.  These are my bullet

15     points, the notes I took while Mr. Moric was speaking.  I took down his

16     words faithfully, but at this time I really couldn't tell what you he

17     meant, what he was thinking.  I only noted down his words in his

18     introductory remarks at the meeting we had.

19        Q.   Well, let me turn, then, to the military police coordination

20     meeting that took place two days later on the 15th of September.  And --

21     I'm sorry.  I should have been clearer on that.  That's the meeting at

22     Plitvice, and it's a MUP military police coordination meeting as

23     indicated by the heading.  We talked about it briefly yesterday, and if I

24     could turn to your comments on page 70 of the English.

25             MR. TIEGER:  And that should be, Mr. Registrar, at the -- right.

Page 15315

 1        Q.   I asked you yesterday about that first entry and about the

 2     structures, and you dealt with that yesterday.  And then you say:

 3             "We must separate our personal from our professional stance when

 4     they differ in order to implement the proclaimed state policy."

 5             Can you explain to the Court what that was a reference to,

 6     Mr. Lausic?

 7        A.   The military police, just like the civilian police, when carrying

 8     out its tasks in Operation Storm mobilised its reserve forces.  I

 9     mobilised about 1500 reserve policemen, for example.  I'm not sure what

10     number the civilian police mobilised, but in any case, it was a large

11     number of reserve policemen of the civilian police.

12             The reserve forces of both the civilian and military police were

13     local people from a certain area, and many of them had been expelled

14     together with their families.  They had been displaced and accommodated

15     in temporary refugee centres.  What I meant by what I said here was the

16     following:  Both members of the military and of the civilian police have

17     to keep their emotions and frustrations under control.  They have to

18     subordinate them to their professional tasks.  They must perform their

19     professional tasks in such a manner that their attitude is strictly

20     professional and that they should not be lenient towards members of the

21     Croatian forces if they found them burning or looting.

22             So what I said here was that we, the highest levels of leadership

23     in the military and civilian police, had to convey this standpoint down

24     the chain of command to the lowest-ranking policemen, both in the

25     military and civilian police, whether active duty or reserve, and that

Page 15316

 1     they should be strictly told that their personal frustrations and

 2     emotions should not be confused with their professional work, that

 3     tolerating such crimes is detrimental to the state policy, that it

 4     creates an image which is harmful to the Republic of Croatia, and that

 5     they must be very energetic in carrying out their professional tasks.

 6             This is a brief explanation of what I meant when I said that we

 7     must separate our personal from our professional stance when they differ.

 8     I mean, for example, that if there is a reserve military police or

 9     civilian police at a check-point who had been displaced with his family

10     and someone came along with stolen goods in their car, if such a person

11     let that person pass through with stolen goods without taking any action,

12     that would not be a good thing.  Their emotions should not influence

13     their performance of their professional tasks.

14             That's what I was trying to say.

15        Q.   And then your notes indicate, toward the bottom of the page:

16             "Bring the line of command into the problem.  Commanders at all

17     levels must be aware of the problem and must resolve issues ... along the

18     line of command [sic]."

19             Now, with respect to commanders at the higher levels, with

20     respect to Military District Commanders, did you consider the possibility

21     of personally contacting those commanders, raising the problems with the

22     line of command, and seeking their efforts in resolving it?

23        A.   As you have had an opportunity to present my daily reports, which

24     were addressed along with Minister Susak to the highest-ranking military

25     commander, the chief of the Main Staff, you will have seen that I

Page 15317

 1     describe the situation as it was in reality and propose what measures

 2     should be taken down the chain of command.  It was to be expected that

 3     the chief of the Main Staff, based on my daily reports and also reports

 4     from other levels and services, should issue orders down the chain of

 5     command.

 6             My chain of reporting was the one you presented through my daily

 7     reports to the highest military and civilian structures.  It was to be

 8     expected that the chief of the Main Staff, based on these reports, should

 9     respond down his chain of command and issue orders to lower-ranking

10     officers, at lower levels.

11        Q.   And what was intended, therefore, when your notes say "bring the

12     line of command into the problem"?  How was that intended to be

13     accomplished?

14        A.   Well, the answer is contained in the attendees of that meeting at

15     Plitvice who included the highest-level commanders, the commanders of

16     battalions who were part of the Military Districts.  These commanders of

17     military police battalions, in their daily contacts, in their briefings,

18     when they brief the commanders of the Military Districts or commanders at

19     other levels, should insist -- they should insist that the chain of

20     command should be used to prevent unacceptable behaviour.

21        Q.   Mr. Lausic, we turn then next --

22             MR. TIEGER:  And, Mr. Registrar, can we call up D567, please.

23        Q.   Mr. Lausic, D567 is a report by you dated 16 September 1995

24     regarding the analysis of the use of the military police of the armed

25     forces of the Republic of Croatia in Operation Storm, and it covers a

Page 15318

 1     number of areas.  The first section indicates the planning and preparing

 2     of military police units in Operation Storm; the second section, the use

 3     of military police units in the preparation of Croatian army units for

 4     Operation Storm; section 3, the use of military police units at the

 5     beginning of assault operations and in liberating the occupied areas;

 6     section 3.4, under the subsection under that particular section at page 5

 7     of the English and page 5 of the Croatian reflects the use of military

 8     police units to receive, escort, and process captured members of

 9     paramilitary units and the numbers of persons who were processed through

10     10 September 1995.

11             It indicates, Mr. Lausic -- let me just ask you question about

12     that.  It indicates a total of 1576 persons escorted and processed from

13     the beginning of Storm until 10 September 1995 and then the number of

14     persons handed over to judicial bodies, so the number of persons escorted

15     and processed being 1576.  The number of persons handed over by the

16     military police for whom there were reasons to suspect that they had

17     committed criminal acts to the detriment of the Republic of Croatia was

18     659.

19             Just for clarification, Mr. Lausic, that's -- that's a reference

20     to Serbs suspected of activities against the Republic of Croatia.

21        A.   Correct.  These were members of the army of the so-called Sprksa

22     Krajina, the army of the rebel Serbs on the territory of the Republic of

23     Croatia in the aggression.

24        Q.   We've seen a number of references in the documents and some of

25     which you noted yesterday and I think referred to even the day before to

Page 15319

 1     the limited number of military policemen available, given the size of the

 2     territory and the events that were taking place.

 3             Can you give the Court any approximation of the number of

 4     personnel or percentage of personnel that was devoted to the task of

 5     processing the captured members of -- or suspected captured members of

 6     paramilitary units?

 7        A.   I couldn't be precise about that without seeing the analysis I

 8     prepared in 2004 when preparing for my interview with the investigators

 9     of The Hague Tribunal.

10             In any case, they were employees of the crime detection military

11     police.

12        Q.   If we just turn quickly to a couple of other entries, and turning

13     to page 8 of the English and page 9 of the Croatian.

14             The heading in that section is:

15             "Measures we undertook and continue to undertake to raise the

16     general level of security in the newly liberated area of the Republic of

17     Croatia.

18             "By constant" -- it states that:  "By constant visits to the

19     newly liberated area of the Republic of Croatia, looking at the situation

20     we found there an analysis of the state of security.  We changed our

21     tactics and methods of organising the military police and proposed to the

22     HV Main Staff that they should take over the line of command to avoid

23     disruption of public law and order, the commission of crimes, and in

24     endangerment of traffic safety by members of the HV.  These measures

25     produced certain results but did not completely" -- well, the literal

Page 15320

 1     language here in English is "... did not completely the commission of

 2     prevent crimes ..." and I presume that's to mean did not completely

 3     prevent the commission of crimes, "... especially theft of property,

 4     torching houses, and individual acts of murder."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Tieger said page 8.  I believe he means page

 7     10.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you for that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   And then finally, Mr. Lausic, just look down at the bottom of

12     that page in English to the proposals you make.  I think it's just after

13     the -- in -- in English if we could raise that slightly and -- right.

14             The first proposal is that:

15             "The line of command should be assured by the presence of the HV

16     Military District Commanders, officers responsible for security and

17     information service, and political activity at working meetings which

18     would be held in the coming period with assistance to the RH minister of

19     the interior in all HV military districts who have areas of

20     responsibility in the newly liberated territory, so that they take over

21     responsibility for the conduct of members of the HV and lay down a line

22     of command to control the movement of these soldiers."

23             MR. TIEGER:  And so that the English is -- the English should be

24     raised up to the first -- I guess that would be the previous page, then,

25     if that's the case, and to the bottom.  Thank you.

Page 15321

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Lausic, can you tell us what you intended by this

 2     proposal and the extent to which it was implemented after you made it --

 3     or adopted and implemented after you made it?

 4        A.   This proposal was not implemented -- or, rather, meetings were

 5     not held at the level of the minister or assistant minister and myself as

 6     well as my deputy with the commanders of Military Districts.  I don't

 7     know why that did not take place and for what reasons.  I can merely say

 8     that those meetings were not held.  At least, I made no note of them, and

 9     I don't seem to recollect any such meetings.

10        Q.   And if I could turn your attention back to page 9 of the English

11     and page 8 of the Croatian.  This is under a heading entitled:

12             "The results of establishing military police duty in the newly

13     liberated area of the Republic of Croatia."

14             And it indicates that:

15             "The military crime police, in collaboration with the Republic of

16     Croatia MUP crime police, processed 321 crimes ..."

17             And then it lists a number of crimes, including -- beginning with

18     13 murders, 18 cases of HV members dying accidentally, 191 cases of

19     torching, 13 cases of setting explosive, 86 other crimes, chiefly theft.

20     Of known perpetrators of the above crimes, 79 were HV members and 274

21     were civilians.

22             As of the time of the report, September 16th, 1995, Mr. Lausic,

23     were those 13 murders indicated at section 7 of the report the total

24     number of alleged murders or possible murders that the military police

25     had investigated?

Page 15322

 1        A.   I could not answer that precisely.  This document entitled

 2     "analysis of the use of the military police" was compiled from reports

 3     sent by the heads of departments of the military police, the head of the

 4     crime service of the military police, the traffic military police, and

 5     other services, and they, in turn, received that information from their

 6     subordinate units.

 7             This is a compilation.  Therefore, this part refers to the work

 8     of the crime police and, as such, was forwarded by the head of that

 9     department.  It is merely as a point of reference in the document.

10     Therefore, I cannot precisely answer your question.

11        Q.   Do you know whether or not the military police was made aware of

12     the number of civilian bodies or bodies determined to be civilians that

13     were recovered or located after Operation Storm began?

14        A.   I had no such information.

15        Q.   Were you aware of the operation of sanitation units in the newly

16     liberated territories that were collecting bodies?

17        A.   I was not reported on those activities.  Sanitation and hygiene

18     measures within a given area is something that is undertaken pursuant to

19     an order from the appropriate level.  The military police was not

20     duty-bound to be informed of that.  Therefore, I did not have that

21     information.  I only know that commanders could issue orders on

22     sanitation and hygiene measures to prevent outbreaks of disease,

23     et cetera.

24             In one of the numerous daily reports we have commented upon, I

25     stipulated that sanitation and hygiene measures should be undertaken as

Page 15323

 1     soon as possible in the liberated area because there are -- there's dead

 2     cattle, roads are blocked, and all of those things can affect general

 3     security in the area.

 4        Q.   You said you know that commanders can issue orders on sanitation

 5     and hygiene measures to prevent outbreaks of disease, and I -- do I

 6     assume correctly that's a reference in part to picking up both dead

 7     animals and dead human bodies to prevent the outbreak of disease?

 8        A.   Since I do not have a military background but a police one, I

 9     cannot tell you precisely what falls under the category of sanitation and

10     hygiene measures.  As a layperson, I would say that this would entail

11     removing anything that can be dangerous to the health of people, and

12     animals, of course.

13        Q.   And were you informed at any time or did you receive information

14     at any time that there was any investigation into the deaths of any of

15     the persons whose bodies were picked up by sanitation units?

16        A.   I did not have such information.  I have no knowledge of that.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18        Q.   And finally, Mr. Lausic, turning again to the proposals in your

19     report, there are quite a number of proposals.  Can you tell us what

20     prompted in particular proposal number one, concerning the line of

21     command, the proposal that you said was not adopted or implemented, or

22     any of the other proposals?

23        A.   Could we please have that brought up on the screen?

24        Q.   Certainly.

25             MR. TIEGER:  That begins at the bottom of page 10 of the English

Page 15324

 1     and page 9 in the Croatian.

 2        Q.   And actually, rather than having you read them all, let me ask to

 3     you focus on the first proposal that you said was not adopted.  Can you

 4     tell us what prompted you to make that recommendation and proposal?

 5        A.   The latter part of the sentence is important, to take over

 6     responsibility for the conduct of members of the HV and lay down a line

 7     of command to control the movement of these soldiers, which means that,

 8     in practice, this was not the case.  By virtue of the meetings that were

 9     to be held with the commanders, the need for them as the most senior

10     commanders in their areas of responsibility, should lie down a chain of

11     command by referring it to their subordinate command posts and to have

12     the rules concerning the work and life of the members of the HV put in

13     place.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lausic.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, that concludes the Prosecution's

16     examination.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

18             Before we have a break, Mr. Lausic, I would like to ask one or

19     more additional questions.

20             Could I take you back to the meeting that was held on the 13th of

21     September in which Mr. Moric expressed that he was not satisfied with the

22     attitude or approach of the military commanders and apparently expected

23     them to undertake preventative measures.

24             Now, did you form an opinion about whether such preventative

25     measures should be undertaken by the military commanders?

Page 15325

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely right.  Both

 2     Mr. Moric and I arrived at the same conclusions, and that is that the

 3     chain of command was needed to prevent the commission of crimes and that

 4     it needed to become more efficient or even operational because in some

 5     instances it simply did not exist.

 6             Perhaps I should explain.  The commission of crimes was often

 7     caused but not disciplining HV members.  Had the rules of the HV been

 8     followed, there would not have been as many crimes, and I can corroborate

 9     that by certain examples.  For example, if a member, HV member steals a

10     car and uses it for theft or robbery, that would have been prevented had

11     the rules on the use of vehicles been followed, and that particular HV

12     member would not have had the opportunity to steal the car and use it to

13     commit crimes.  The same model can be used when discussing the use of

14     arms and other crimes.  We wanted to ensure that commanders lie down the

15     chain of command in order to have the rules of work and activities of HV

16     members put in place, which to a large extent would prevent HV members to

17     be in a situation in which they could potentially commit crimes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Moric said that the Military District level

19     -- believed that they were misinformed or that things were

20     misinterpreted.  Did you form an opinion about that, as well, whether it

21     was misinformation or -- so not knowing what actually was happening, or

22     was it not wanting to know what actually was happening, or -- did you

23     form an opinion about an explanation as to the attitude of the Military

24     District level?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally believe then, as I do

Page 15326

 1     now, that commanders at all levels, via the daily and interim reports

 2     they received from the military police as well as from their subordinate

 3     commanders, did have an opportunity to acquaint themselves with the

 4     situation in their respective areas.

 5             I can say another thing.  There were also assistant commanders

 6     for security and information, that is to say, that person was in charge

 7     of security and was also duty-bound to report to the commander on all

 8     security-related events, much as the military police had to.  They also

 9     had to report on the activities and behaviour of HV members within the

10     commander's area of responsibility.  That post is the assistant commander

11     for security -- or, rather, for the SIS service.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently at the meeting, Mr. Moric expressed some

13     concerns in this respect.  I hear from you that you had concerns in this

14     respect as well.  Did you share those concerns with Mr. Moric, either

15     during or outside this meeting?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the meeting of the 13th.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the Ministry of the Interior.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the meeting where Mr. Moric said that he --

20     that the activities of the military and civilian police should be

21     coordinated and that military commanders must know the truth and

22     undertake preventative measures.

23             So my question was whether you, at this meeting or at any other

24     occasion, you shared the concerns similar to the concerns Mr. Moric

25     expressed with him.

Page 15327

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President.  I

 2     did not make separate notations of my own views expressed since this was

 3     my diary.  I only noted down what Mr. Moric said.  Reading the notes that

 4     refer to him, I agree fully with his views on the situation and measures

 5     to be undertaken, as well as the discrepancy between what was agreed upon

 6     and ordered and the situation in the field.  This view of Mr. Moric's

 7     would be identical to my view.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  My question, however, is whether you shared, that

 9     you spoke about these concerns with him, either during this meeting or

10     outside of this meeting, so that you told him what your concerns were and

11     that he told you that he did or did not share your concerns.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President.

13             At the meeting itself, I expressed my views which were identical

14     to Mr. Moric's views, which I noted down.  There was some discussion, and

15     we all agreed on those views.  We all agreed it to be true.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And where Mr. Moric said that military

17     commanders must know the truth, did you form any opinion as to whether

18     they knew the truth but didn't want to know it or that they really did

19     not know the truth and should be informed about what had happened?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same comment would apply to

21     this situation as I said a moment ago.  The commanders received reports

22     from MP units, from their subordinate officers as well as their assistant

23     commanders in charge of security, and by virtue of those, they had

24     insight into the situation of their respective areas.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you ever speak about that with

Page 15328

 1     Mr. Moric, that you believed that they received information which would

 2     enable them to know the truth but that they apparently did not want to

 3     know it or did not understand it?  Did you ever discuss this with

 4     Mr. Moric whether during this meeting or at any other occasion?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is difficult to be precise since

 6     I have no verbatim notes of the meeting.  In any case, we did discuss

 7     that, and I shared my views with him at that point in time, much as I did

 8     now.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             We'll have a break --

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I could make an objection either

12     now or when we come back or -- outside the presence --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll first give the witness the opportunity

14     to follow the usher.

15             We'll have a break, Mr. Lausic, for approximately 25 minutes.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

18             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  Respectfully, I have to

19     object to the leading nature of some of the questions that were posed.  I

20     just note for the record that on the transcript when the witness was

21     asked on direct about this matter, he said he didn't know what was meant,

22     and in the way the question was posed to him, it says:

23             "Mr. Moric expressed that he was not satisfied with the attitude

24     or approach of the military commanders and apparently expected them to

25     undertake preventative measures..." is how you posed the question to him.

Page 15329

 1             I believe it was leading, and I think -- during

 2     cross-examination, I certainly plan to explore this topic, but for the

 3     record I feel compelled to note my objection.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What I did, Mr. Misetic, is where you objected

 6     against the question put by Mr. Tieger, an objection which could easily

 7     be understood as an encouragement to follow your suggestion that whatever

 8     in addition to what we find on paper would be said by this witness as far

 9     as the remarks of Mr. Moric are concerned would be speculation.  I asked

10     some additional questions to explore where additional information would

11     from a logical point of view not necessarily amount to speculation,

12     whether there was any information known to this witness which would not

13     be speculative and which would assist the Chamber in understanding the

14     notes and the observations made by Mr. Moric.

15             MR. MISETIC:  If I could just say briefly, Your Honour, to the

16     extent you've now said it was encouragement.  It is a perfectly

17     legitimate objection --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I did not say it was encouragement.

19     Would you please carefully listen to me:  Could be understood as.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I said, nothing more, nothing less.

22             MR. MISETIC:  And if I could also add that it was an objection

23     that is routinely made; the second point is, my objection was based on a

24     prior ruling of the Chamber where you sustained the same objection with

25     respect to Mr. Hjertnes, and that is the basis upon which I made the

Page 15330

 1     objection, just for the record.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's on the record.  We'll have a break, and we

 4     will resume at 25 minutes past 4.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 4.02 p.m.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7                           --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I take it you're the first one to

 9     cross-examine the witness.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lausic, you will now be cross-examined by

12     Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

13             Please proceed.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lausic.  I would like to -- I wasn't planning

16     on it, but I'd like to pick up where we left off at the end -- with the

17     Presiding Judge's questions.

18             If we could turn to Exhibit D567, Mr. Registrar, please.

19             Mr. Lausic, what I'm pulling up on the screen is in fact your 16

20     September report to General Cervenko on Operation Storm.  You will recall

21     that the sequence of events that Mr. Tieger took you through this morning

22     included some meetings with the MUP on the 10th, the 13th, and the 15th

23     and some entries in that diary where one interpretation of the entry was

24     put to you.

25             I'd like to explore a different interpretation of what Mr. Moric

Page 15331

 1     was talking about.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  If we could, Mr. Registrar, turn to page 8.

 3        Q.   I'm going to show you a portion that Mr. Tieger didn't show you

 4     of this report.

 5             I'm going is show you a few documents, Mr. Lausic, because I

 6     don't want to spend a lot of time on this at the beginning, but if you

 7     would -- it's page 8 in the English, paragraph 6.3.  And in describing

 8     the situation and how the military police was functioning, you wrote:

 9             "In larger villages and towns and along major roads, constant

10     beat patrols ensured law and order, prevented torching and the

11     uncontrolled removal of war booty, and controlled the safety of military

12     road traffic."

13             6.4 says:

14             "Non-stop traffic security was provided to HV units withdrawing

15     from newly liberated areas.  Security ensured for mobilisation assembly

16     points where HV units were demobilizing, and public law and order

17     maintained in places where official welcomes had been organised for HV

18     units in towns all over the Republic of Croatia."

19             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could turn now to D1066.

20        Q.   This is a report of the same day from the chief of the general

21     military police, Mr. Kozic.

22             You're familiar with Mr. Kozic, Mr. Lausic?

23        A.   I --

24        Q.   You know --

25        A.   I beg your pardon?

Page 15332

 1        Q.   Tell us who Mr. Kozic was on the 16th of September, 1995.

 2        A.   Mr. Kozic, he was the chief of the general military police

 3     department in the military police administration.

 4        Q.   Now, here's his -- after the meeting at Plitvice -- I'm sorry.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, I'm hearing questions before the translation

 6     is completed.  That's all.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was listening to the French translation at

 8     that very time.

 9             Mr. Misetic, if you could try to adapt your speed.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

11        Q.   Now, this is Mr. Kozic's report the day after the meeting in

12     Plitvice.  The chief of the sector for the general military police says:

13             "According to our assessment, the security situation in the parts

14     of the Republic of Croatia recently liberated in Operation Storm as to

15     the area of responsibility of military police units and within the

16     operation and assessment realm of the general military police is good and

17     stable."

18             That's on the 16th, Mr. Lausic.

19             Now, if I can take you to what you wrote to General Cervenko on

20     the 15th of August, I should say.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar - one moment, please - this would be

22     Exhibit D292, please, on page 3.  I'm sorry, it's ... page 13.  I'm

23     sorry, Mr. Registrar.  Paragraph 5.3, please.

24        Q.   You wrote to General Cervenko:

25             "In larger places and towns, 24-hour patrols and beat service are

Page 15333

 1     securing public peace and order, preventing arson and uncontrolled

 2     removal of the spoils of war, and taking care of road traffic safety;

 3     they are still securing major military depots in the liberated territory

 4     of the Republic of Croatia."

 5             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn to the next page, concerning

 6     conclusions.

 7        Q.   In the conclusion section, you wrote:

 8             "The preparation, planning, and engagement of military police

 9     units, the command of joint actions with the HV SIS, Ministry of Defence

10     and Ministry of Interior, were at a high level and the problems were

11     solved as one went along.  Therefore, we are of the opinion that units of

12     the military police of the armed forces of the Republic of Croatia

13     performed all their tasks relating to the preparation and execution of

14     the Operation Oluja."

15             Now, my question to you, Mr. Lausic, is when Mr. Moric is saying

16     that commanders think -- let me put my question to you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any translation?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to say that

19     if I did not have the original in front of me in the Croatian language

20     what I hear through my headset as a Croatian interpretation of the

21     extract read out by Mr. Misetic in English is completely different, so I

22     find this distracting.  I find it hard to focus because what I hear as an

23     interpretation of what Mr. Misetic is saying differs from what I can see

24     written down in the Croatian text, and I find this distracting and

25     disconcerting.

Page 15334

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What we perhaps best do is that you read from

 2     the screen what this report exactly says because you will understand that

 3     if someone is sitting behind a desk translating word by word that the

 4     wording, the phrasing, might not be always be for the full 100 percent

 5     the same compared to a translation which still could be an accurate

 6     translation by interpreters who have to interpret immediately on the

 7     basis of the reading of Mr. Misetic.

 8             I further add to that, that the translation uploaded in e-court

 9     is a draft translation and not a --

10             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- confirmed translation.

12             But perhaps if you read the original on your screen, that would

13     certainly enable you to know exactly what Mr. Misetic is quoting.

14             And I take it that those who speak and understand the language

15     will verify whether there are any major mistakes in the draft

16     translation.

17             Can you read it, please?  I think what Mr. Misetic read to you is

18     found under the word "zakljucak" in the original, and apologies for my

19     pronunciation.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   My question to you, Mr. Lausic, is, wasn't Mr. Moric really

22     telling you that you in fact weren't conveying the gravity of the

23     situation in reports such as this to the military commander?

24        A.   First of all, I would like to respond -- or, rather, comment on

25     the report you presented, which was drawn up by Major Kozic and addressed

Page 15335

 1     to my deputy, Brigadier Biskic.

 2        Q.   Do it in a concise manner because we have much material, as you

 3     can see, to cover.  But, yes, I will give you a chance to respond.

 4        A.   No problem.  But I wanted to point out that the report you

 5     presented to me by the chief of the General military police, Major Kozic,

 6     is addressed to my deputy, Brigadier Biskic.  And if you look closely at

 7     the material I signed as the analysis of the use of the military police,

 8     and if you look at the last page - that's page 11 in the original

 9     document - and if you look at the initials at the bottom left-hand

10     corner, left -- left of the stamp and signature, it says MB/TH.

11             These are the initials of Marijan Biskic/the typist who typed out

12     the document, her initials, and from this one can conclude that it was my

13     deputy who drafted this document, based on the report from the chief of

14     the general traffic and crime military police department.  I read it and

15     signed it as the report of the military police administration, but I did

16     not understand your question, actually.

17        Q.   Well, first, regardless of who drafted it for you, I think you

18     yesterday used the metaphor of commanders being in a relationship of

19     parent and child.  The persons that drafted were your metaphorical

20     children, Mr. Lausic, and I'm putting it to you again, what Mr. Moric

21     said at those meetings was that you - and by you, I mean the military

22     police of which you were most responsible - were not accurately reporting

23     to the military line about the gravity of the situation in the field.

24     And if you disagree with me, I'll show you any of these three reports or

25     the two that went to General Cervenko and ask where you say that the

Page 15336

 1     military police is unable to execute its duties because the line of

 2     command is not functioning.

 3        A.   I disagree with your opinion.  I think the commanders were

 4     sufficiently informed of the realities on the ground.

 5        Q.   You think that.  But you agree that -- if they were informed of

 6     the realities, they weren't informed by you.

 7        A.   You saw from the reports addressed to the chief of the Main Staff

 8     and the other highest levels that this was my chain of reporting as the

 9     chief of the military police administration.

10             Every day, they also received reports from the commanders of the

11     military police battalions in their areas of responsibility.

12        Q.   Believe me, we're going to get to all of those reports that you

13     have referred to.

14             What I'm interested in right now is the top of the chain.  The

15     top of chain, as you say, is you at the head of the military police

16     administration and General Cervenko as the Chief of Staff, and in these

17     reports, the written reports that you send to General Cervenko at the top

18     of the chain, never once do you indicate that units are in the field

19     burning and that the line of command needs to take action because the

20     military police cannot handle the situation.

21             Is that a fair statement about the content of these reports?

22     And, believe me, as the days go by, we will go into the specific

23     paragraphs of these reports.  But, generally speaking, am I correct?

24        A.   Mr. Misetic, the chief of the Main Staff and all the other

25     highest levels of command in the Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff

Page 15337

 1     received a daily summary of security-related events, a daily bulletin

 2     issued by the duty service of the military police administration, and in

 3     this daily summary, there were segments dealing with the events that had

 4     taken place in the past 24 hours.  These segments were crime, breaches of

 5     military discipline, traffic accidents, et cetera, et cetera.

 6             So the chief of the Main Staff and the other highest-ranking

 7     commanders in the Main Staff and in the Ministry of Defence were informed

 8     through the daily bulletin and had precise data as to when, where, how,

 9     by whom, all those seven questions that can be asked, all that was

10     encompassed by those bulletins.

11             My reports on the activities of the military police, the ones you

12     are quoting now, were something special linked to that period.  The

13     bulletins covered the work and activities of the military police every 24

14     hours.

15        Q.   Mr. Lausic, if I pause after you answer a question, it's not --

16     just so you are aware, it's -- I'm waiting for the translation, the

17     interpretation to catch up.  You need to -- it's not because I'm

18     expecting you to continue with your answer, just so you're aware of that.

19             Mr. Lausic, that's fine, and believe me, probably for tomorrow

20     I'm going to print out all of those daily reports so that you have them

21     in hard copy and you can review them.  But based on those daily reports,

22     I take it that we can conclude, based on the two general reports that you

23     submitted, that those daily reports are not going to show us that the

24     military police is unable to function or complete its tasks because if

25     that were the case, you would have put that in your two reports; correct?

Page 15338

 1        A.   I do apologise, but as interpreted, your question was that the

 2     military police was incapable of carrying out its task.

 3        Q.   No.  Let me repeat the question.  What I'm saying is, those daily

 4     reports are not going to show us that the military police was unable to

 5     complete its tasks because if that were true, you would have stated in

 6     your general reports to General Cervenko that, in fact, the military

 7     police was not able to complete all of its tasks; correct?

 8        A.   These reports deal with the activities that the military police

 9     was carrying out.  For the military police to be more successful in its

10     activities, there would have been fewer events that they had to intervene

11     in, if the lack of discipline among the soldiers of the Croatian army had

12     been dealt with down their chain of command.  To put it simply, we were

13     doing as much as we could with the resources available to us, but we

14     would have been more successful if the commanders down their chain of

15     command made sure that the soldiers reported the rules of service, the

16     rules of discipline, and other rules; and then we as the military police

17     would have been more successful because we would have had fewer events to

18     deal with in our activities.

19        Q.   Let me wrap up this section for one minute.

20             Mr. Lausic, it's always the case that there's always -- you can

21     always do better.  You can always have more discipline, even today.  But

22     in terms of the reports that you were sending to General Cervenko, do you

23     agree with me that he never reported in those reports that there was

24     anything extraordinary taking place on the ground?

25        A.   I would have to look at the reports day by day in order to give

Page 15339

 1     you a precise answer to that.

 2        Q.   You feel free to do that if you have your book of documents.  I'm

 3     referring you to the two reports which are your reports and analyses of

 4     Operation Storm.  One is from the 15th of August; the other is with

 5     another month's time to reflect on it from the 16th of September.  In

 6     those two reports, do you agree with me that you didn't report that there

 7     was an extraordinary situation taking place on the ground.

 8        A.   Can I see that on the screen, please, because I can't find them

 9     here.

10        Q.   In the interest of time, Mr. Lausic, I think you have them in

11     your binder.  If you want to let me know after the next break if you have

12     found anything in those reports which would say there was something

13     extraordinary, I'd be happy to let do you it.  But it will take us a bit

14     of time it flip through all of the pages on the screen.

15             Mr. Lausic, let me change topics for a minute.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 65 ter 478 on the

17     screen, please.  I'm sorry.  That is now, for the record, Exhibit P2189.

18        Q.   Mr. Lausic, I'd ask to you take a look at this.  This is your

19     order of the 6th of October, 1995, and the Chamber is aware of a killing

20     incident in the village of Varivoda as well as several other killings

21     incidents that took place after Operation Storm, and if you take a look

22     at this order, you issued an order to create an operative action, and you

23     named it Varivoda.

24             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could turn to the next page in the

25     English, Mr. Registrar.

Page 15340

 1        Q.   Do you have a copy of the document, Mr. Lausic?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  I just wanted to clarify something so there

 3     won't be any confusion.  I think there may be a misunderstanding that all

 4     -- about whether or not all of the documents that were on the

 5     Prosecution's exhibit list were in Mr. Lausic's binder.  I think he only

 6     had a -- some of those documents.  So it shouldn't be an assumption that

 7     all of the documents on the exhibit list are available to him in the

 8     binder.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.  If I could just -- in order --

10     because Mr. Lausic seems to be flipping through his binder looking for

11     documents.  If the OTP could give us what he was given, and then I can

12     instruct him whether a document is in his binder or not.  I think it'll

13     speed things up.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I don't know if I have that handy, but I'll try to

15     get it as quick as possible.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

17        Q.   Mr. Lausic, Mr. Tieger advises us that it's in fact not in your

18     binder, so you'll have to look at the screen in front of you.

19             Now, can you take a look at this.  You wrote and, actually, on

20     the cover page you addressed it to the 72nd Rijeka Military Police

21     Battalion - the 71st, I'm sorry - the 72nd Split MP Battalion, and the

22     chiefs of MP administration sectors.

23             And in the preamble, you say:

24             "Through an analysis of the security situation ... we have come

25     to the conclusion that the security situation is not at the required

Page 15341

 1     level, and in order to raise the general state of security, ... in

 2     cooperation with the MUP, I am establishing operative action Varivoda."

 3             And then it says how long the action will be in effect.

 4             In paragraph 1, you name the officers who will be in the

 5     commission, including three officers from the military police

 6     administration.  You appoint the commanders of the -- I believe it's the

 7     3rd Company of the 72nd MP Battalion and 4th Company of the 72nd Zadar

 8     Battalion and the commander of the company of the 72nd Knin MP Battalion.

 9             At point 2, you order them to cooperate with the chiefs of the

10     police administrations in the area, perform an analysis --

11             "... on the ground, shall perform an analysis of the security

12     situation of the work organisation to date, and draft an operative plan

13     for the use of the military police and the police in the implementation

14     of operative action Varivoda."

15             You then identify what -- how long the shifts are going to be.

16     In paragraph 4, you tell them to use search dogs.  Paragraph 5, you say:

17             "The commander of the operative action Varivoda team is

18     authorised to take all measures in order to have the level of

19     responsibility and performance quality of military and police tasks

20     raised to the highest level.  The commander is also authorised to agree

21     on the tactical and methodological implementation of the operative action

22     with representatives of the RH MUP."

23             Point 6, you order that reports be sent through the operations

24     duty of the MP administration and a summary report at a meeting in the

25     MUP administration on the 11th of October.  You see who it's addressed

Page 15342

 1     to:  the Minister of Defence, Assistant Minister Rebic, and Mr. Moric.

 2             Now my first question -- let me wait.

 3             What Article of the rules of the military police allowed you to

 4     issue this order?

 5        A.   Article 8 of the rules on structure and work of the military

 6     police.

 7        Q.   In your order.  You're getting involved in how long the shifts

 8     are going to be, the use of dogs, how the reporting is going to go.

 9     You're getting involved in operational matters in this case.  What

10     rule of the rules of the military police allowed to get involved in

11     operational matters?  And I also say that you then empowered the team

12     leader to draft the operative plan, the team leader being Mr. Kozic, who,

13     again, is from the MP administration in Zagreb.

14             Where did you get the power to issue those orders and get

15     involved in operational matters?

16        A.   If we go back to the beginning of the order, you see that it

17     refers to two MP units and three departments of the MP administration,

18     that is to say, to different organs within the structure.  The order has

19     to do with a clearly defined action.  The headquarters is determined, as

20     well as the tasks, means, tactics and methodology in the course of the

21     action as well as the way of reporting.

22        Q.   Yes.  This is an operation much like this exact same thing that

23     happened in Operation Storm; right, Mr. Lausic?  You did the same thing

24     prior to Operation Storm.  You sent down people from Zagreb, set up your

25     IZM, issued orders on what was to be done, how the reporting was going to

Page 15343

 1     go; right?  This is Operative Action Varivoda; that was Operation Storm.

 2        A.   I do not equate the two orders, the preparatory order for the

 3     implementation of military police tasks in the course of Operation Storm

 4     and the order on the establishment of Operative Action Varivoda.

 5        Q.   My initial question, Mr. Lausic, and let me get back to that, is

 6     what rule of the military police rules allowed you to issue this order

 7     for OA Varivoda?

 8        A.   I've already answered.  It is Article 8.

 9        Q.   And -- you're right, and my next question was -- let me put it a

10     different way.

11             Article 8, then, also allowed you to get involved in how the

12     operation was going to be conducted; right?  The methods, the tactics,

13     the reporting system, who was going to be involved, how many men, all of

14     those things you were allowed to do under Article 8; correct?

15        A.   So that the military police with its equipment, staff, resources

16     and the best possible methods and tactics be as efficient as possible.

17     That is the strategic level of command and control.

18        Q.   Well, there's also an operational level of command and control,

19     and if in fact this operation started to unfold in a manner that was

20     inefficient or that wasn't producing results, you had the power to issue

21     an additional order to fix whatever eventual problem would come up;

22     right?

23        A.   That is it what was done.  By changing the methods and tactics of

24     the activities of the military police, by reinforcing or strengthening

25     certain parts or units of the military police, it was done continually,

Page 15344

 1     as can be seen from all the documents that have been presented in the

 2     course of the past two days.

 3        Q.   Well, Mr. Lausic, let me turn your attention to your statement,

 4     which is P2159.  And at paragraph 19, you talk about the passage of the

 5     temporary instructions.  You say in the middle:

 6             "We gave general instructions referring to the organisation of

 7     the military police, the speciality of the military police, the

 8     setting-up of commanders in the military police, thus regulating the

 9     vertical subordination in the military police and the horizontal

10     coordination of the work of the military police."

11             Did you find that in your statement, Mr. Lausic?

12        A.   Could you please repeat the number of the paragraph in my

13     statement.

14        Q.   Yes.  It's paragraph 19.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  This is in your statement where you talk about the

17     concepts of vertical subordination and horizontal coordination, and let

18     me show you before I ask you a question on that topic.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D66-0243.

20        Q.   What I'm going to show you, Mr. Lausic, you probably don't have

21     in your binder, so you will have to look on the screen is your annual

22     report on the work of the military police for 1994, and we have an

23     excerpt translation.

24             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 1 in the English, please,

25     which is, fortunately, page 1 in the Croatian.  It's numbered page 1, I

Page 15345

 1     apologise, which is page 3 in the English, and numbered page 1 in the

 2     Croatian version, which is page 2.

 3        Q.   Now, in this section you talk about the work that was done in

 4     1994 with the military police, and this is now after the passage of the

 5     1994 rules, and you say, at paragraph 3 -- this is the section, by the

 6     way, titled:  "General features of the structure, development, and the

 7     work of the OS RH military police in 1994."

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If we go to paragraph 3.

 9        Q.   You wrote:

10             "The results, the level of organisation, and development of the

11     military police until the end of 1993 were the subject of analysis on the

12     MP administration level and the basis for determining the focal tasks in

13     the development of the military police in 1994 as following."

14             In point 3, there is:

15             "Strengthen and building the system of command and control

16     according to a vertical subordination and an operational daily system of

17     control according to a horizontal coordination."

18             Now, Mr. Lausic, explain to us the concept of vertical

19     subordination and daily operational horizontal coordination.

20        A.   The question you have put is something that was quite troublesome

21     for all the commanders during the years I headed the military police, of

22     which seven were the war years.  These rules from 1994 were in force

23     until 2004.

24             This question basically arose from the lack of wish to fully

25     comprehend what is vertical command and control and horizontal

Page 15346

 1     coordination.  That lack of understanding existed while the interim

 2     instructions were in place that were put into force in January 1992.  For

 3     that particular reason, the military council of the Ministry of Defence

 4     had to sit and the Minister of Defence personally had to explain the two

 5     concepts.

 6             May I conclude my answer?

 7        Q.   I will let you conclude, but if you would first just specifically

 8     tell me what it means, and then if it's necessary to go into the

 9     background, I don't have a problem with it.  But if you could first tell

10     us, what does it mean when you say vertical subordination and daily

11     operational horizontal coordination.  How does that system work?

12        A.   I have explained that in the course of the first day of my

13     testimony when answering one of Mr. Prosecutor's questions, when stating

14     what were the tasks of the MP administration as well as my authority

15     under Article 8, and Article 9 envisaged the right to implement daily

16     operational tasks in everyday activities to the various commanders of the

17     armed forces in Croatia.  I may repeat that, if you wish.

18        Q.   I don't want you to repeat anything that you already said.  What

19     I am interested in is, up until now, you have used the phrase that the

20     72nd MP would report according to their two verticalities, yet in 1994

21     you explained the concept as really one verticality and one horizontal

22     coordination.  In fact, that's the way we should look at it structurally,

23     is that the MP battalion is coordinating its work under Article 9 but is

24     subordinated under the command and control of the chief of the military

25     police administration.

Page 15347

 1        A.   When performing regular military policing tasks, the Military

 2     District Commander within whose establishment that unit is.  The military

 3     police battalion active in the given area of the Military District daily

 4     received dozens of specific orders at various command levels within the

 5     Military District.  Such orders had to do with escorting military

 6     convoys, requests to provide security, or other tasks that were within

 7     the remit of work of the military police.  That included daily

 8     operational command of MP units in accordance with Article 9 and its

 9     implementation.  From the archives of the MP battalions as well as the

10     administration archives, I could show you thousands upon thousands of

11     such orders sent by all-level commanders, brigade commanders, Military

12     District Commanders, thus exercising their powers from Article 9 in terms

13     of daily operational command of MP units.

14        Q.   I'm trying to get behind what that means, Mr. Lausic, and I'd

15     like to show you via Sanction --

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, a witness statement given to the OTP

17     and which obviously we will not be tendering into evidence, so I haven't

18     uploaded it into e-court.

19        Q.   This is the statement given by Petar Stipetic who, as you know,

20     was -- took over command up in Sector North during Operation Storm, and

21     you referred to General Stipetic in your statement as a professor type.

22     You corrected that to say you didn't mean he was literally a professor

23     but that based on his knowledge, he was a professorial type of general.

24     And if we could turn the page in Croatian and in English.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

Page 15348

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I have been out of the courtroom for a

 2     while, so I'm not I recall the precise protocol for using statements of

 3     perhaps-anticipated witnesses, but it's certainly not a practice I'm

 4     accustomed to in my jurisdiction, and I thought at a minimum there was an

 5     effort to elicit answers from the witness generally -- and the bottom

 6     line, of course, is now the statement clearly won't come in.  I'm not

 7     sure what the purpose of using it now before a highly specific question

 8     to which this -- to which an answer has been obtained and for which the

 9     basic proposition for which this might be a good-faith basis is at issue.

10             Otherwise, we've got all kinds of -- it's one thing to put your

11     case to a witness.  It's another thing to advance propositions generally

12     through statements that should properly be advanced through witnesses who

13     are going to be called.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the guidance of the Chamber was that you

16     first asked the witness questions about a certain matter, and if there is

17     any need to then put to him that others may have given the same answers

18     or different answers, that you do that first.

19             MR. MISETIC:  [Microphone not activated]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do not -- of course, the Chamber doesn't know

21     the statement, and the Chamber doesn't know what you'll ask the witness

22     about in relation to the statement.

23             Therefore, whether it has been properly dealt with first without

24     the statement, the Chamber wouldn't know.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 15349

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, the guidance may be clear.  If the

 2     previous questions were very much about concepts of subordination and

 3     coordination, if that is what this statement relates to, then it can be

 4     put to the witness.  If not, then, of course --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  We've been here ten months.  Every time we pull a

 6     statement up, we get an objection that we have to go through the

 7     procedure.  By this point, I have been trained very well to know that we

 8     have to go through the hoops.  So based on the witness's last answer

 9     about what types of daily orders they would give, it's on the transcript,

10     and that's the exact issue that I would like to put.  In addition, the

11     concept of daily operational control I think for three days now has been

12     talked about extensively.  So there's no risk of a new matter being put

13     to this witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first wait for your question and what portion

15     to be put to the witness.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, and I take it that you will be very

18     attentive.

19             MR. MISETIC:

20        Q.   Now, this was the question.  Another unit was a military police

21     battalion.  Were those battalions subordinated to the military police

22     sector in the Main Staff or to the Ministry of Defence?  You can read it

23     on your screen, Mr. Lausic, and I'll skip over some of this, but he says:

24             "In the beginning, the military police battalions were under the

25     command of the Main Staff.  One military police battalion was directly

Page 15350

 1     under the Main Staff.  Such standing has lasted only for two to three

 2     months.  Then President Tudjman decided that the administration of

 3     military police must be established in the Ministry of Defence.  Those MP

 4     battalions which were under the command of the Main Staff before from

 5     then on fell under the command of the Ministry of Defence.  MP battalions

 6     in the operative zones ..." which is another term for Military Districts,

 7     "... stayed within the zones but because of the new centralised command

 8     system, they were responsible to the military police administration in

 9     the Ministry of Defence regardless that they are in the operational zone.

10     Whenever the commander of the operative zone needed military police, he

11     had to inform the military police administration in the Ministry of

12     Defence."

13             There's another question about clarifying about giving orders, a

14     Military District Commander giving orders to a battalion commander, and

15     General Stipetic said:

16             "It should be normal for a Military District Commander to give

17     orders to a military police battalion commander, but before giving such

18     orders he would have to consult with the military police administration.

19     Independently, he can give minor tasks:  Control of traffic, dealing with

20     drunk soldiers, providing security to transportation of some equipment,

21     et cetera.  But larger engagement of the military police had to be

22     approved by the military police administration, and it's for the chief of

23     the military police administration of the Ministry of Defence to decide

24     whether to give additional forces to a Military District command [sic]."

25             Now, Mr. Lausic, that in fact is an accurate statement of how

Page 15351

 1     things worked under the new system that you, in fact, were the proponent

 2     of, which was that this concept of horizontal coordination meant that the

 3     district commanders could use the military police for their purposes to

 4     execute their tasks, but vertically the MP battalions were subordinated

 5     to you; correct?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  My only concern is this.  Happy to have the

 7     witness direct his attention to the document.  I'm just concerned about a

 8     question that seems simultaneously to ask about the accuracy of the

 9     document and about this witness's positions about aspects of

10     subordination and coordination.  So if those could be separated, no

11     problem.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you split them up, Mr. Misetic.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Sure.

14        Q.   Mr. Lausic, the Military District Commander as a daily

15     operational command can issue orders to the MP battalions as you said by

16     the dozens, perhaps, for minor tasks like control of traffic, dealing

17     with drunk soldiers, providing security to transportation.  But he

18     couldn't deploy the military police battalions throughout a significantly

19     large amount of territory without your approval; correct?

20        A.   It is completely incorrect.  Completely incorrect.

21             The problem of vertical subordination and horizontal

22     coordination, first of all, met with certain commanders who had

23     originated from the Yugoslav People's Army where the system of

24     coordination and command was set up completely differently with different

25     tasks.  You should have asked that.  General Stipetic, I was not a JNA

Page 15352

 1     officer.

 2        Q.   What you're familiar with --

 3        A.   Let me continue, please.

 4        Q.   Sorry.  It's actually an important point.  You are familiar with

 5     how the military police was structured?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, I -- the witness is answering the

 8     question, attempting to get through the question.  Then he's stopped and

 9     turned to a different question.  I think he should be permitted to answer

10     his question.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Believe me, I want the answer to the original

12     question, but while he's on this point -- I think he knows and this is

13     precisely the point, and if necessary I'll take him to a document to that

14     effect --

15        Q.   But the difference between the JNA system and the system you

16     implement.

17        A.   If you would allow me to finish first.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Your question was very short.  "Correct?"  The

19     answer was it is completely incorrect.  If you put a question in this way

20     to the witness, he may answer the question, and especially if he asks to

21     be allowed to continue, then to say:  "Sorry.  It is actually an

22     important point ..." and then put a different question to the witness is

23     not appropriate.

24             You may finish your answer, Mr. Lausic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, Mr. President.

Page 15353

 1             Immediately after the interim instructions on the work of the

 2     military police was put in place in January 1992, certain commanders of

 3     the HV attempted to behave in opportunistic manner so as to use the newly

 4     -- the existing system of command and control.

 5             For that reason, the minister of defence in December 1992 held a

 6     meeting of the military council.  In attendance were the chief of the

 7     Main Staff, General Tus, then all the other most senior officials.  It

 8     was at that meeting that command and control was discussed, in terms of

 9     the military police.  It was an item on the agenda of that meeting of the

10     military council.  That happened because there was a misunderstanding on

11     the part of the commanders of the new system of command and control of

12     the military police.

13             At the meeting of the military council -- I will be brief.  I

14     will respond in a single sentence, if I may, Mr. Misetic.

15             At the meeting, it was precisely determined what were the tasks

16     of the MP administration, which commands and controls all MP units

17     through the following items which I have specified in the course of the

18     first days -- day of my testimony.  What follows in the text is that the

19     HV unit commanders or garrison commanders within whose area of

20     responsibility the specific MP unit is command MP units to execute all

21     military policing tasks in keeping the authority and powers of work of

22     the military police.  They're also tasked with daily monitoring of the

23     work of the MP and notify the MP administration with the proposal of

24     measures to be undertaken by the administration so as to ensure efficient

25     functioning of the MP unit.

Page 15354

 1             Immediately after --

 2        Q.   Mr. Lausic, that's more than one sentence.  I'm trying to make

 3     some progress here, Mr. Lausic.

 4        A.   You put a very serious question.

 5        Q.   I have additional documents that --

 6        A.   And I want to provide a serious answer.

 7             After the interim --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lausic, we have to keep in mind that if we speak

 9     at the same time, it will not be put on the record.  If we speak too

10     quickly, that the interpreters have no possibility to translate, and if

11     you tell us that you'll be brief and respond in a single sentence where

12     many do follow, then that is a reason to invite you to focus your answers

13     very much on the precise question.

14             Perhaps during the break, the witness can think this over, and as

15     far as simultaneous speaking, you could do, as well, Mr. Misetic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  May I show him one document before the break?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If that would give us a more appropriate

18     moment for the break, then, please do so.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Lausic, let me show you 1D66-0260.  1D66-0277.

21             This is from the 4th of July, 1995.  It's your response to some

22     -- to an analysis by General Stipetic, and you took particular exception

23     to the portion where he analysed the structure of the military police,

24     and apparently in that document, General Stipetic -- you write:

25             "... once more brought to the attention the question of command

Page 15355

 1     and control over the military police by stating the following ..."

 2             And then General Stipetic wrote -- at point 2, he suggested that.

 3             "The brigades and Home Guard Regiments should within their

 4     composition have a military police platoon or, rather, to incorporate

 5     military police platoons within the brigades and Home Guard Regiments

 6     which would be placed under their direct command."

 7             He additionally wrote:

 8             "The current command and control system of the military police is

 9     not effective and hinders the possibility of a more rapid engagement of

10     the military police because it requires the use of long indirect routes."

11             You responded:

12             "We feel that the remarks stated by Colonel General Petar

13     Stipetic are arbitrary and have no factual basis, and the grounds for our

14     opinion are as follows ..."

15             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn to the next page in English.

16        Q.   You wrote towards the middle of that page:

17             "I would also like to emphasise that military police units have

18     until now and will in the future carry out all of their tasks in a

19     planned manner in the areas of combat activity according to the plans of

20     the 'engagement of military police units in their areas of responsibility

21     upon the commencement of actions by HV units.'  The stated plans are

22     coordinated with the headings of the engagement of HV units and were

23     created in cooperation with the HV Military District Commands."

24             You then write in the next sentence:

25             "Regarding the proposal that military police platoons should be

Page 15356

 1     incorporated at HV Brigades and Home Guard Regiments and placed directly

 2     under the command and control of the commanders of the HV Brigades and

 3     Home Guard Regiments, we had this type of structure until the beginning

 4     of 1993."

 5             And then you talk about how that was -- another system of command

 6     and control was accepted:

 7             "In 1993 and 1994, there was a restructuring conducted."

 8             Now, it seems to me that the dispute there between you and

 9     General Stipetic is General Stipetic wants military police units to be

10     under the direct command of military commanders, and you disagreed with

11     that.  Is that an accurate representation of what this dispute was about?

12        A.   No, not at all.  The organisation of the military police --

13        Q.   Let me ask you, then, a more specific question.

14             What type of system was General Stipetic advocating, and why did

15     you disagree with it?

16        A.   The answer to your question requires us to go back into the past,

17     time permitting and by His Honour's leave.  But briefly, I can say it's

18     contained in the first several points of my testimony, both in my suspect

19     interview and the transcript and in my witness testimony.

20             When the military police units in the first few days, when the

21     Croatian army was being created, were led directly by the brigade

22     commanders, the Crisis Staffs and all those who established some sort of

23     military police and many abuses of the military police or misuses were

24     registered.  Military policemen were carrying out tasks not following

25     within the purview of the military police, and for this within the

Page 15357

 1     president of the Republic as the commander in chief issued a decision on

 2     a different organisation of the military police and established the

 3     military police administration before I was appointed to that duty.

 4             In the sector of security and intelligence of the Ministry of

 5     Defence, the military police administration was established before I took

 6     up my duty as its chief.  It was only after my appointment that I set out

 7     to do the work I have already described.  This organisation was never

 8     approved, nor does it exist today.

 9             Now, a regiment of the military police --

10        Q.   Let me ask you this again.  What did General Stipetic want?

11        A.   He wanted the same model that existed in the former JNA, for

12     every brigade to have a military police unit under the direct command of

13     that brigades commander who would be the only one receiving reports.

14     That was the situation we had in 1991 and 1992 in the war, and there were

15     some abuses.  The flow of information was stopped.  We had local

16     sheriffs, local power-holders, maybe brigade commanders and so on, and

17     this system was never implemented, although there was constant pressure

18     to have it restored.

19        Q.   Last question before the break, Mr. Lausic.  What does General

20     Stipetic -- what do you understand him to mean when he says that the

21     current command system is not effective because it hinders the

22     possibility of more rapid engagement because it requires the use of long,

23     indirect routes?

24             What does he mean -- what is the route that he is talking about

25     there as being a long, indirect route?

Page 15358

 1        A.   You should have asked him that.  I'll tell you that with all the

 2     commanders, first, of the operative zones while they existed and then

 3     with all the commanders of a Military District, including your client,

 4     General Gotovina, as soon as he took up his duties as the commander of

 5     the Split Military District, I and my deputy held talks with them, at

 6     which we directly explained the command and control structure of the

 7     military police, and we always ended each such meeting by me saying, Sir,

 8     whatever falls within the purview of the military police has to be

 9     carried out by the unit which is part of your Military District, or

10     operative zone.

11             As soon as a battalion commander tells me he has been given a

12     task which he cannot implement for whatever reason, lack of resources or

13     whatever, these resources, vehicles, reinforcements will be provided by

14     me, but the task has to be carried out.

15        Q.   We'll get into some of those decisions that you made either

16     accepting or rejecting General Gotovina's requests for military police

17     maybe tomorrow.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I tender 1D66-0277 into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections by Mr. Tieger.

20             Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1279.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Could the witness already be escorted out of the courtroom.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as the temperature in this courtroom is

Page 15359

 1     concerned, I'm usually not relying on Wikipedia, but I learned that a

 2     sigh is an exhalation of air through stress, boredom, relief, tiredness,

 3     longing, contentment, exasperation or disappointment.  This Chamber

 4     sometimes has difficulties in perfectly interpreting what kind of sigh we

 5     hear, and there is, although I'm not referring to the context in which

 6     those words are used, but Shakespeare, at least, used the phrase: "A

 7     thousand thousand sighs to save..."

 8             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11                           --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             Mr. Registrar, could we please have on the screen 1D66-0262,

15     please.

16        Q.   Mr. Lausic, I'm going to show you an order of yours from the 3rd

17     of December, 1994.

18             This is the order where you establish the areas of responsibility

19     for the military police units, and you've addressed it to all of the

20     military police units.

21             And then if we could turn the page, please.

22             I'm interested in paragraph 7.  It talks about the various units,

23     but obviously we're most concerned here with the 72nd Military Police

24     Battalion.

25             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to numbered paragraph 7 in the

Page 15360

 1     Croatian, please.

 2        Q.   Now, you write that the:

 3             "... 72nd MP Battalion carries out military police tasks in the

 4     area of responsibility of the Split Military District and the southern

 5     front.

 6             "The commander of the 72nd MP Battalion is subordinated in daily

 7     operational commanding to the commander of the Split Military District.

 8             "Platoon and company commanders outside of the headquarters of

 9     the 72nd MP Battalion command are subordinated in daily operational

10     commanding to the HV garrison commanders or the most senior HV commander

11     within their area of responsibility."

12             And then you have subordination of the 6th company to the

13     commander of the southern front.

14             Now, I'm trying to understand this structure, Mr. Lausic.  It

15     seems that have you taken the commander of the 72nd MP Battalion and

16     subordinated him to the commander of the Split Military District, and

17     then the company and platoon commanders that are not in the headquarters

18     of the 72nd MP Battalion are subordinated to different commanders in

19     daily operational commanding, including the garrison commanders or the

20     most senior HV commander, within their area of responsibility.

21             Can you explain the multiple subordination of the units that

22     comprise the 72nd MP Battalion?  I should say multiple daily operational

23     subordination.

24        A.   I don't think you are using the correct term.  The units of the

25     military police or, rather, the military police of the Croatian army was

Page 15361

 1     organised along the territorial principle.  The logic was where the army

 2     is, there is also military police there.  The 72nd MP Battalion whose

 3     headquarters was in Split had a company in Split.  It had its command, a

 4     general police company, and a traffic company.  There was one company in

 5     Zadar, one in Sibenik, and I don't remember where the 5th Company was --

 6     oh, yes, it was in Sinj, and the 6th Company was in Dubrovnik.

 7             As the southern front existed at the time, which extended from

 8     Ploce to Dubrovnik, and had its commander, the 6th Company in carrying

 9     out its daily operational tasks was subordinated to the commander of the

10     southern front.  That was the so-called territorial organisation, which

11     is not unknown in the world.  The German military police is still

12     organised along the same lines.  We did not simply copy foreign

13     organisation but simply responding to the needs that we had in view of

14     the time and the territory.  We organised this according to the logic of

15     wherever the army is there, the military police is also.

16             The companies had dislocated platoons.  I'm not sure where the

17     72nd had those platoons, but I know that some platoons were dislocated in

18     some battalions.

19             If a company commander in Zadar received an order from the

20     commander of the Croatian army brigade in Zadar to carry out a military

21     police task, and to carry out that task he had insufficient equipment,

22     men, resources, vehicles, and so on, and the task fell within the purview

23     of the military police, he would apply to the commander of the 72nd

24     Battalion, asking for help, and he would be provided with the requisite

25     men, vehicles, and so on, and the task had to be carried out.

Page 15362

 1        Q.   Okay.  This -- that at the end is what I went to get into.  You

 2     said:

 3             "The company commander in Zadar receives an order from the

 4     Croatian army brigade in Zadar."

 5             Does that mean that, under the order that's on the screen, that

 6     the company commander in Zadar was subordinated for daily operational

 7     purposes to the commander of the Croatian army brigade in Zadar?

 8        A.   It would depend on who the most senior officer was.  If Zadar had

 9     a Military District Commander, or as we know from the instructions we saw

10     yesterday on the establishment of Military Districts, they could be

11     appointed by name, or it could just be the most senior officer in the

12     area.  In any case, that would give the right to the most senior officer

13     in Belgrade [as interpreted] to use his right to command the military

14     police as described in Article 9 of the Rules of Service of the Military

15     Police.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I think the city referred to there was

17     Beograd.  It was translated as Belgrade, which may cause some confusion

18     in the transcript.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You referred to Beograd rather than to Belgrade,

20     Mr. Lausic?

21             MR. MISETIC:

22        Q.   Beograd and not Belgrade, correct, Mr. Lausic?

23        A.   I mentioned neither Belgrade nor Beograd.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll read the line:

25             "In any case that would give the right to the most senior officer

Page 15363

 1     in ..." and where did you locate this most senior officer?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zadar, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  In Zadar, "... to use his right to command the

 4     military police as described ..."

 5             It's now on the record.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Now, structurally speaking -- and we've heard some expert

 9     testimony here about the need and the principle of unity of command.

10     Now, if -- let's take as a hypothetical that the highest-ranking

11     commander in Zadar is the commander of the brigade.  The company of the

12     military police in Zadar, then, the commander of that company, would have

13     been subordinated for daily operational purposes to the commander of the

14     brigade in Zadar; but what I don't understand is there would appear to me

15     to be multiple lines of command here because the company commander is

16     also answerable to the 72nd MP Battalion commander.  The brigade

17     commander has his own line of command that would go to the Split Military

18     District.  There's another line that goes to you in the police

19     administration.

20             Now, if -- who is commanding -- there's a lot of commanders here

21     that seem -- if it's as if you say, there are a lot of commanders here

22     who seem to be able to all issue their own orders to the military police

23     company commander in Zadar, and if you could explain that, please.

24        A.   It's very simple.  The purpose and aim of such an organisation

25     and the basic reasons for Article 8 and 9 are the following:  Everything

Page 15364

 1     that falls within the purview of the military police has to be carried

 2     out, and there must be no delay in carrying out the task because there is

 3     a lack of men, resources, vehicles, and so on.

 4             Secondly, abuses in the use of the military police have to be

 5     prevented.  The military police must not be used for purposes not falling

 6     within the purview of the military police as had happened in the first

 7     wartime years, and this is actually what prompted the changes in the

 8     previous organisation, when a platoon commander, for example, who was a

 9     member of a brigade, was responsible only to the brigade commander,

10     carrying out whatever he was ordered to do regardless of whether it fell

11     within the purview of the military police or not, and let me remind you

12     that today in Croatia there are many trials where the accused are members

13     of such units who did things they shouldn't have done.

14             Secondly, the report on the fact that a commander in Zadar had

15     carried out a task on orders from the commander of a certain unit - in

16     this case, the brigade which was in Zadar - would reach the commander of

17     the 72nd Battalion, and the battalion commander would know what the

18     company commander had done, whether these tasks fell within the purview

19     of the military police, whether he had had any problems with lack of men,

20     resources, equipment, and so on or not.

21             So everything that fell within the purview of the military police

22     had to be carried out; secondly, there should no misuse of the military

23     police; it should not be made to do things which do not fall within their

24     job description; and, finally, the tasks -- everything had to be reported

25     up the military police hierarchy.

Page 15365

 1        Q.   Now, isn't one of the benefits to the system that was put in

 2     place in 1994 the fact that there was now an architecture put in place, a

 3     system where there was centralised means of being able to issue orders to

 4     the various military police battalions, companies, platoons, in order

 5     have some consistency in coordination in terms of what the different

 6     companies and platoons would do in a given situation?

 7        A.   By whom?  The battalion commander?  When commanding the companies

 8     that were part of that battalion.

 9        Q.   Let's take Operation Storm as an example.  Operation Storm

10     involved the liberation of territories that crossed the boundaries of the

11     Split Military District, went to the Gospic Military District, the Zagreb

12     Military District, the Karlovac Military District, but if you wanted to

13     have the military police all operating consistently across those Military

14     Districts, who is the person that can achieve that?  Having one plan

15     all-coordinating, how can that be affected?

16        A.   I must confess that this is a very unclear question.  It was all

17     defined precisely in the order on the preparation of forces of the

18     military police for Operation Storm, the so-called preparatory order.

19        Q.   And who issued the preparatory order?

20        A.   It was presented here yesterday or the day before, and you could

21     see that I signed it.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if could I tender 1D66-0262, please.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, no objection in principle.  However,

24     it's a partial translation.  I, you know, presume that the untranslated

25     portions don't have any relevance to the issues raised here, but I think

Page 15366

 1     we need an opportunity to look it over.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  We'll do that by court tomorrow, I think.  We'll

 4     look it over quickly, and if there's any -- if Defence can assist if they

 5     have any -- if they know specifically what those previous items in the

 6     order are and can illuminate, that would help as well.  It doesn't have

 7     to be now.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I can just tell him.  There are just for the

 9     different military police battalions across Croatia, who they're

10     subordinated to.  I didn't think it was relevant to this case, but ...

11             MR. TIEGER:  And I don't doubt that.  Just a matter of due

12     diligence.  We'll look it over.  We'll respond tomorrow.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's be practical.  We decide already on

14     admission because there is no objection, but there's an opportunity for

15     the Prosecution to ask the Chamber to revisit the matter.  Would that

16     be a ...

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because we have no real objection.

19             Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1280, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D1280 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I'm also reminded that I failed to

23     tender 1D66-0262, which is the annual report prepared by Mr. Lausic for

24     1994 of the military police.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

Page 15367

 1             MR. MISETIC:  It's also a partial translation.  I don't know if

 2     they also --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Same procedure?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.  I gave the wrong number.  1D66-0243.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that'll become Exhibit D1281.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D1281 is admitted into evidence with the same

 9     proviso as with the previously document.

10             Mr. Tieger, since we're doing bookkeeping anyhow, earlier today

11     you said that 65 ter 3343 was on the Excel sheet.  I had difficulties in

12     finding it, but there was no objection from the Defence.  It was not on

13     your 65 ter --

14             MR. TIEGER:  I'm grateful for that, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] -- ter list, you said, but it

16     was on the Excel sheet, you said, and ...

17             MR. TIEGER:  I apologise for the oversight.  I'm grateful it came

18     into evidence.  I will simply say that the representation that was on the

19     sheet was based on -- was actually based on checking beforehand.  I guess

20     the information I received was wrong, but it wasn't --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You get some message at this moment, so perhaps it's

22     better ...

23             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I can -- the message I get at the moment is

24     that at least at a minimum, it was provided to the Defence by e-mail

25     before Court.  As far as being on the Excel sheet, I may have been wrong

Page 15368

 1     about that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.  But there were no objections, so there's

 3     no need to decide on the matter.  It's just, again, that the Chamber

 4     encourages the parties to be as precise as possible in whatever

 5     information they give to the Chamber.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Lausic, if I could take you to Exhibit D267, please.

 9             This is the 2nd of August order you prepared and issued to the

10     military police battalions.  If I could take you to, first, paragraph 10

11     of this document, and you were shown this yesterday.

12             Concerning Mr. Juric, it says you appointed Mr. Juric and a group

13     of officers from the regular VP section and the VP crime section to

14     assist in commanding and organising the activities.  And then in the last

15     sentence there in the middle paragraph:

16             "The commanders of the 72nd VP Battalion and 73rd VP Battalion

17     shall be subordinated to Major Ivan Juric."

18             If we go to paragraph 12, please.  This was, again, a discussion

19     about the reporting system:

20             "Within the daily operational chain of command ... it shall be

21     subordinated for the commanders of the military police" -- sorry.

22     "... the commanders of military police battalions ... shall be

23     subordinated to the commanders of Military Districts ..."

24             And then if we can turn the page in English.  You order that the

25     commanders of the 72nd VP Battalion and 73rd VP Battalion are to submit

Page 15369

 1     their reports to Major Juric who shall report to the VP administration.

 2             My first question is, Mr. Lausic:  Why weren't the daily reports

 3     enough?  Why did you issue an order for reports from those officers that

 4     you sent in the field to first be sent by the battalion commanders to

 5     your officers and then to you rather than to the Military District

 6     Commander?  Why not just rely on the daily reports?

 7        A.   It is regular practice in all police forces of the world applied

 8     to the military police of the Republic of Croatia that I organised, and

 9     that entailed that each every operative action, whether it be a combat

10     operation as was this case, or be it an operative action such as the one

11     in Varivoda where the focus was to improve the situation with law and

12     order and crime in a given area, or whether it concerns providing

13     security to an official, such as the President of the Republic or some

14     other action.

15             Once the tasks in the course of the action had been undertaken,

16     as regulated by orders, reporting is also mentioned on the completion of

17     tasks.  But this does not go against a system of daily reporting on the

18     completion of all tasks that fall within the scope of authority of the

19     military police.

20        Q.   Why wouldn't you also, then, tell Major Juric, Send a copy to me

21     but you should be sending your reports to General Gotovina, let's say?

22     It's an operative action.  The reporting by your officer in the field

23     according to the order goes to you.  You don't even say, And copy the

24     Split Military District Command.  What would --

25        A.   There was no need.  Major Juric, much as Major Cvitanovic and

Page 15370

 1     Colonel Kozic, all of whom were at forward command posts as I've

 2     explained yesterday, it is they that I delegated part of my authorities

 3     to them based on Article 8.  They were my eyes and ears in the field, so

 4     to say, in the course of the action.  Major Juric received reports from

 5     the commander of the 72nd and the 73rd Battalion and then sent a compiled

 6     report to me.  The commanders of those units forwarded their respective

 7     orders to their Military District Commanders.

 8        Q.   Why different reports?  Why weren't you satisfied to just receive

 9     a copy of the daily operational reporting that was going to the Split

10     Military District?  In other words, I don't understand why either you

11     didn't just rely on the same report that would go in the regular daily

12     report or, alternatively, with this extra report that you ordered to be

13     prepared by 8.00 every night, that you didn't say, And this second report

14     should also be copied to the Military District Commander.

15             Why are there different reports?

16        A.   The Military District Commander receives reports from the

17     commanders of the brigades, which are within his AOR.  The commander of

18     the forward command post of the MP administration, in this case,

19     Major Juric, compiled reports that came from the 72nd, 73rd Battalion

20     commanders plus their own -- or his own remarks.  He was my forward

21     command post commander.  He was my eyes and ears in the field.  I wanted

22     to hear from him whether there were any problems in implementing tasks,

23     in the functioning of command, whether he needed additional forces and so

24     on and so forth.

25        Q.   Let's go back to paragraph 5, if we can, in this order.

Page 15371

 1             Now at paragraph 5, you talked about how you're at the strategic

 2     level.  Let's talk about the operational level.  You write:

 3             "A plan of unit's engagement at the start of combat operations

 4     shall be worked out in detail on the level of the VP battalions,

 5     companies, and platoons in all areas of responsibility, which will

 6     include setting up strong check-points with the task of preventing [sic]

 7     unauthorised and uncontrolled entrances [sic] into the zones of combat

 8     operations ..."

 9             If we go to paragraph 6, the second sentence.  You go further,

10     and you say -- and you refer to an order that was issued on the 1st of

11     May, 1995, and you say:

12             "The tasks under item 2.2 shall be only performed at large

13     cross-roads for the purpose of directing traffic in the area, and after

14     the HV members reach certain lines and take defensive positions, strong

15     check-points shall be set up at the access and exit roads of the defence

16     zone without the presence of RH MUP members.  It shall be ensured" --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. ...

18             MR. MISETIC:

19        Q.   "It shall be ensured that the military police members take

20     vigorous actions and perform the tasks in accordance with the authority

21     of the armed forces military police."

22             Why does paragraph 5 put it on the level of the VP battalions,

23     companies, and platoons to work out their plan of engagement rather than

24     the commanders to whom they are operationally -- daily operationally

25     subordinated?

Page 15372

 1        A.   It is it logical that a battalion commander, based on the

 2     information given to him by the Military District Commander, in the

 3     preparation for an operation as regards the deployment of forces, axis of

 4     attack, and everything else that may come his way as information, drafts

 5     his implementation order precisely in detail, describing everything

 6     referred to in item 5.

 7        Q.   What I'm interested in none of those orders that I could find in

 8     terms of before and during Operation Storm that come to you and say, Go

 9     to your commander to whom you're daily operationally subordinated to get

10     a plan or get instructions on what you're supposed to do.

11             And if I could show you another document in this line.

12             MR. MISETIC:  It's 65 ter 3134, Mr. Registrar.

13        Q.   Again, an order from you to all the military police units, dated

14     the 2nd of August, and these are now specific instructions:  Military

15     police treatment of foreigners and media representatives when they are

16     visiting a protected building or when they want to enter areas of war

17     operations.  You order:

18             "While performing everyday military police tasks concerning

19     security, patrol service check-points are in contact with foreigners.

20     For the purpose of the same military police member's treatment of the

21     above-mentioned persons, I hereby order..."

22             It says:

23             "MP members who are performing tasks are obliged to enter the

24     aforementioned and visitors book."

25             Paragraph number 2:

Page 15373

 1             "In the event that foreigners are caught near a secured building

 2     (at a place where they're not supposed to be), taking photographs of the

 3     secured building or observing it, military policemen should approach

 4     them, take away the camera, fill out an LS 01 form, and hand the person

 5     [sic] over together with the camera or video camera to a SIS officer."

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Turn the page in the Croatian, please.

 7        Q.   Paragraph 3 talks about confiscating photographs and videos.

 8             Paragraph 4:

 9             "Military policemen at the check-points shall fill out an LS 01

10     form for all foreigners and allow them into the area of war operations

11     only with the approval of the SIS officer ..."

12             MR. MISETIC:  In the interests of time, I have one more document

13     to show, but if I could tender this.  It's a 65 ter exhibit,

14     Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd like to ...

16             MR. MISETIC:  Tender it.  Yes, Mr. President.

17             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Then, Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D1282, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. MISETIC:  If I could have Exhibit D269, Mr. Registrar.

22        Q.   This is, again, an order of yours from the 3rd of August.

23             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can turn the page.

24        Q.   You can see that this is the order on the work of the military

25     police issued on the 3rd of August.

Page 15374

 1             Now, you ordered all the military police units -- and if we

 2     could, for example, go to paragraph 1.1.  Actually, paragraph 1 talks

 3     about making contact with the police administration chiefs and the

 4     commanders of the police stations - these are the civilian police - in

 5     the zones of responsibility and agree on joint work on tasks.

 6             1.1 is establish strict check-points.

 7             1.2 --  if I could turn the page first, thank you - follow the

 8     advance of the RH armed forces in the depth of the liberated territory.

 9             1.3:  In populated places by means of joint patrols, ensure law

10     and order and everything else as listed in point 1.2.  The RH MUP will

11     take over the security of vital buildings.

12             1.4:  At bigger intersections in liberated areas, establish joint

13     check-points in order to regulate traffic and provide security for HV and

14     civilian columns.

15             It goes on, and I won't repeat it all.

16             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page and go to paragraph 3,

17     numbered paragraph 3.

18        Q.   Now, you ordered:

19             "Women, children, and the elderly from liberated areas shall be

20     handed over by members of the military police to the nearest police

21     station in the liberated area of the Republic of Croatia or to the police

22     station in the free territory of the Republic of Croatia with a record

23     being made of the persons handed over and signed by the person taking

24     them over in the RH MUP police station.

25             "VP unit commanders shall brief all levels of command in VP units

Page 15375

 1     and all members of the military police on this order during the night and

 2     ensure that it is implemented."

 3             And it's signed by you, copied to many, including the Military

 4     District Commanders.

 5             Now, would you agree with me that many of the points that you

 6     have in this order are points that are covered by Article 10 of the rules

 7     of the military police?  The tasks.  The tasks that you've outlined here

 8     are tasks identified in Rule 10 of the Rules of the military police;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Article 10?  It refers to the scope of authority and the tasks of

11     the military police, enumerating the tasks and duties of the military

12     police.  However, in the preamble, it is also mentioned that joint action

13     be introduced in terms of tactics and methodology that would be applied

14     across all MP units.  I also asked for energetic efforts across all

15     units.

16        Q.   I agree with you, and that's the point I tried to make with you

17     about an hour ago, maybe less, about the centralised system and getting

18     uniform application in the field of what needed to get done.  But things

19     like what military police were supposed to with civilians that they

20     encountered or confiscating cameras and video recorders or setting up

21     check-points, coordinating with the civilian police, those are all tasks

22     under Article 10 that you ordered pursuant to your powers under Article

23     8; correct?

24        A.   It is correct.  But we are not talking about micro-locations of

25     the check-points.  I don't know what the pace of advancement was to be.

Page 15376

 1     This was all to be provided in daily operational contact from the

 2     Military District Commander or some other organisational part of the

 3     Croatian army and followed upon.

 4             What I prescribed was a unified methodology and tactics of

 5     activity, joint action, energetic efforts as well as cooperation with the

 6     colleagues from the Ministry of Interior.  All of those things were

 7     agreed upon at the strategic level.  When you showed the first order that

 8     had to do with reporters, civilians, and others, that was ordered by the

 9     assistant minister for security and intelligence affairs, Mr. Rebic.

10     Based on information he received from SIS and political affairs officers

11     about uncontrolled entry of journalists and civilians, some of them were

12     killed or injured.  I can only recall -- I can recall one example of a

13     BBC journalist who was killed.  The second order had to do with the

14     meeting which had been held at the highest level with our colleagues from

15     the Ministry of Interior.

16        Q.   Let's take two documents right now and see if we can admit them

17     into evidence before we break for the day.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 65 ter 437, please.

19        Q.   Now, this is the order issued by the 72nd Military Police

20     Battalion commander pursuant to the order we just saw on the screen.

21             Essentially -- we don't need to go through it point by point

22     because essentially what Mr. Budimir, the commander, did was copy your

23     order, and he says he's acting pursuant to the order issued by you and

24     passes that order down to his subordinate companies in the 72nd Military

25     Police.

Page 15377

 1             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page, please.  One more page,

 2     I'm sorry.

 3        Q.   You can see in the original that Commander Budimir doesn't copy

 4     the Military District Commander on what he's ordering.  He gets your

 5     order and he executes it.

 6             Now --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If I can just have a moment.

 8             Mr. Registrar, if I could have -- actually, if I could tender

 9     that right now, Mr. President.  It's a 65 ter.

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This document, I'm informed, appears on a Bar table

12     list for which I agreed that the -- Mr. Registrar would assign

13     provisionally numbers, and that has been sent to the OTP for

14     verification.

15             MR. MISETIC:  For the record, we have no objection to the

16     admission of that document.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's already on the record.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  At the risk of calling up another one that's

20     on the Bar table list, Mr. Registrar, if could I have 65 ter 380, please.

21        Q.   Now, this is a report prepared by the company commander,

22     Mr. Grancaric, of the military police company in Zadar, and he is

23     reporting on the 4th that there was a meeting held on the 3rd of August,

24     1995, on the premises of the 3rd Company of the 72nd Military Police

25     Battalion with Major Ivan Juric who issued certain orders in connection

Page 15378

 1     with the HV's activities in the zone of responsibility of the Zadar

 2     operations group:

 3             "After receiving tasks, I established contact with the commander

 4     of the operations group, Colonel Mladen Fuzul; commander of the 134th

 5     Home Guard Regiment, Major Cerina; chief of the SIS -- sorry, of the

 6     security subcentre of the Zadar SIS, Mr. Turkovic; and chiefs of the

 7     Zadar-Knin police administration."

 8             Now, in the December 1994 exhibit that I showed you earlier, one

 9     of the points was that they were, in the 72nd MPs, subordinated to the

10     local highest-ranking commander, and at the end of the document it said

11     that they were also required to coordinate with the police -- the

12     civilian police and the SIS.

13             And Mr. Grancaric here appears to be acting, he says, pursuant to

14     orders that were issued to him by Major Juric, which was the person, as

15     you've labelled him, your eyes and ears in the field, and you testified

16     the person to whom you delegated some of your authority under Rule 8.  He

17     went then, and according to him, he established contact with the

18     Commander Fuzul of the operative group Zadar.

19             Now, is this an example of when we talk about or use phrases like

20     vertical subordination and horizontal coordination, that he received his

21     orders that went from Major Juric whose line went directly to you, but

22     he's working with the local highest-ranking commander, Mr. Fuzul, to

23     accomplish the regular military police tasks, the daily police tasks that

24     a local commander may need to use the military police for?

25        A.   I must admit, I don't understand the gist of your question.  On

Page 15379

 1     the 3rd of August, the highest-ranking officer of the Croatian army

 2     became the commander of operative group Zadar, and that is Colonel Fuzul.

 3             The commander of the military police company, Mr. Grancaric,

 4     established contact with the then-highest-ranking commander, conveyed to

 5     him what he had received as a written order from his battalion commander,

 6     and we have already seen that, and also what -- what Major Juric had told

 7     him.  I don't know what Major Juric had told him, what orders he had

 8     issued to him.  You'd have to ask Mr. Juric that, but I assume he only

 9     explained orally the order which the commander of the 72nd Battalion

10     actually copied from my order.  Everything else Mr. Grancaric, the

11     company commander, in contact with the operative group chief, the chief

12     of the SIS, and others did, and this is acting according to the rules.

13     He was acting according to the rules and according to the order issued by

14     the battalion commander.

15        Q.   We agree on that.  But what I'd like to -- what we're interested

16     in here is -- and if I can put to you this way, and it's a hypothetical,

17     but Mr. Grancaric gets an order -- I'm going to assume that he received

18     the order that you issued on the 3rd about check-points and where

19     civilians were supposed to be taken, et cetera, and he is then also

20     meeting with Mr. Fuzul who is the operations group commander and who is

21     by no means in your chain of command.

22             Now, am I right to say that if Commander Fuzul issued an order to

23     Mr. Grancaric and said, You are ordered to ignore General Lausic's order,

24     we are not setting up any check-points anywhere, that would have been an

25     unlawful order issued by Mr. Fuzul; correct?

Page 15380

 1        A.   First, I don't like answering hypothetical questions; and second,

 2     Mr. Grancaric, the company commander, would not be failing to obey my

 3     orders but the orders of his commander, the commander of the 72nd

 4     Battalion.

 5        Q.   Well, you at your level, you insist that your orders when you

 6     issue them, like you did on the 3rd, are implemented all the way down;

 7     correct?  I mean, if we were to look at military structure, if the

 8     commander below you doesn't execute the order, we have a problem; right?

 9             Let me also put a little twist on it.  You said the 72nd MP

10     commander.  What Mr. Grancaric reported was not that he got the order

11     from the 72nd Military Police Battalion commander, but that he got the

12     order from Major Juric.  And again, let me ask the question, or put it to

13     you this way:  Colonel Fuzul could not issue an order that would

14     contradict the order that you passed down, whether it went through

15     Major Juric or whether it went through Mr. Budimir; correct?

16        A.   You mean a military police task?

17        Q.   The tasks that you ordered that we looked at, those documents

18     right now.  Let me repeat it again.  For example, setting up

19     check-points.  I used that as an example.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Colonel Fuzul could not issue an order that would contradict your

22     order to set up check-points; correct?

23        A.   That he should issue the order that check-points not be set up?

24     But the commander of the battalion had to carry out my order, setting up

25     check-points.  The micro-locations and everything else would come from

Page 15381

 1     the -- from Grancaric, in this case, and he would get it from the

 2     commander of the operative group.

 3        Q.   Last question for the day, and it's not only the commander of the

 4     72nd MP that had to carry out your order.  It was Major Juric that also

 5     had to carry out your order that you issued to him; correct?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  I don't think that is precisely a correct

 7     recap of what the witness was saying about who had -- which orders had to

 8     be carried out.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Mr. Lausic, let me be clear.  You issued orders to Major Juric,

11     and we'll look at them tomorrow.  Those orders that you issued to

12     Major Juric, they had to be carried out; correct?

13        A.   The issues had been -- the orders had been issued.  If you don't

14     expect your orders to be carried out, it's better not to issue them.  You

15     expect an order you issue to be carried out.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lausic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, that's it for the day.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

19             Mr. Lausic, I give you -- could you please keep your earphones on

20     when I give you again the instruction not to speak with whomever or to

21     communicate in any way with anyone in relation to your testimony, whether

22     already given or still to be given.

23             We'd like to you back tomorrow in the afternoon in this same

24     courtroom at a quarter past 2.00.

25             We adjourn for the day, and we --

Page 15382

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.  Just very

 2     quickly, two matters I have been asked to place on record, that the

 3     Prosecution's two Bar table submissions were distributed via e-mail to

 4     everyone, and also I wanted to report to the Court that I do think 3343 I

 5     believe can be found at the very bottom of that Excel spreadsheet.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I failed, I believe, to tender the

 8     exhibit on the screen.  I think it's a 65 ter as well.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe that's on the pending list and

10     there's no objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1283.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D1283 is admitted into evidence.

14             Mr. Tieger, you must have a Excel sheet different from mine.

15     We'll not spend more time on it in court at this moment.

16             We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, the 29th of

17     January, quarter past 2.00, this courtroom.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of

20                           January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.