Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16292

 1                           Thursday, 19 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there was some procedural issues to

12     be raised.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             Once again, I have to regretfully notify the Chamber that we

15     received another six exhibits last night from the Office of the

16     Prosecutor that were not on the exhibit list.  Photographs of Obrovac, a

17     map of Obrovac, a map of Gracac city, a map of Benkovac.  Certainly

18     nothing that happened during the course of Mr. Rajcic's testimony

19     yesterday elicited the need to go back to the archives of the Office of

20     the Prosecutor to put these documents on the witness list [sic] and not

21     on the 65 ter list.  Well, if can I look at them.  One of them is -- the

22     4866 is on it and 6165 is part of P549, but the others are not.

23             In any event, none of them were on the exhibit list, and at this

24     juncture, Mr. President, this has been going on for weeks, my question

25     rhetorically is when does it end?  There has been a continuous flouting

Page 16293

 1     of the rules by the Prosecution to the extent that the Prosecution

 2     believes that there are no rules concerning disclosure.  And that's in

 3     fact we are at this juncture.  I bring it to Your Honours' attention

 4     again.  I certainly can read the 65 ter numbers that were sent to us late

 5     last night, not late last night, but last evening.  And we can object to

 6     this practice.  We object to all of these exhibits coming into evidence

 7     and the late disclosure, and it continues to be something that prejudices

 8     the Defence and continues to be something that the Prosecution fails to

 9     justify and show good cause to the Chamber, why they continue to conduct

10     themselves in this fashion.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             The exhibits that were sent over as Mr. Kehoe indicated, the maps

14     of Benkovac, Gracac, and Obrovac are all on the 65 ter list.  One of them

15     is in fact an enlargement of an admitted exhibit.

16             In any event, these are unmarked maps.  We have any number of

17     maps of Sector South which, if enlarged would simply show the same thing

18     I'm going to be showing to the witness and asking him to identify the

19     locations of targets.  I don't understand what the prejudice is of

20     showing the witness an unmarked map that I'm not going to be admitting.

21     I'm going to be seeking to admit what he puts on the map, which obviously

22     I could not have provide notice of.

23             I'm not sure what the argument is that there's a problem with

24     using a map as a demonstrative aid to testimony, in any case, as I

25     indicated, although they were clearly not on the first exhibit list or

Page 16294

 1     the amended exhibit list that I sent over, they are on the 65 ter list

 2     and even in evidence.

 3             To suggest that there is some form of prejudice by putting in an

 4     unmarked map of something that is part of many admitted exhibits doesn't

 5     seem to make sense.

 6             In any event, Your Honour, on cross-examination the Prosecution

 7     often receives additional documents from the Defence during the course of

 8     cross-examination.  We don't make an issue of that.  It does happen that

 9     sometimes what witnesses say may bring another document to the mind of

10     the examiner.  I don't see where that's a problem.  The witness indicated

11     yesterday that he personally planned the targets for Benkovac, Obrovac,

12     and Gracac.  That was not indicated in any of the documents that we have.

13     I was going ask him what the targets were to the extent he could recall.

14     But now that he indicates that he planned it out, it seems it would make

15     sense to ask him to indicate to the Court the locations of those targets.

16             That's all I have to say, Your Honour.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will deal with the matter on a

19     case-by-case basis.  Of course, when the matter was raised, the Chamber

20     was unaware of whether these were unmarked maps.  Once we see the

21     exhibits, we'll see whether there's anything more than just a map, and

22     we'll then see to what extent it is prejudicial to use that exhibit.

23     That's the way in which we will proceed.

24             There is anything else to be raised at this moment.

25             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, on that score, I don't know if we're going

Page 16295

 1     to get to these maps, but certainly 65 ter 7169, that is apparently taken

 2     from P190, or records reflect have not yet even been disclosed in

 3     e-court, so ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If it will be used, then we can have a look at it,

 5     and -- Mr. Russo, I do understand and there's no misunderstanding that it

 6     is just blank maps as -- just as to be used as an aid rather as the maps

 7     in itself having any probative value.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. KEHOE:  That is not completely accurate.  There are

11     photographs as well.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I meant maps and photographs.  I was not very

13     precise in that.

14             Any other ...

15             Then the Chamber has one question for you, Mr. Mikulicic.  You

16     asked to be present at the other side of the line in a videolink

17     testimony.  The Chamber would like to hear from you what the specific

18     reasons why you want to be there rather than here.

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, the only specific reason which I had

20     in mind is that is completely different situation when the Defence is

21     dealing with a very important witness in situ than via the videolink.  So

22     my attention was when I ask for it, to be present in situ so that I can

23     be close to witness to see his reaction on my question, to see the

24     conversation and the cross-examination between the Defence counsel and

25     the witness in every -- in every way is much more personal when the both

Page 16296

 1     of them are in the very same room, in the courtroom.

 2             So my intention was to be in situ as to provide the best possible

 3     cross-examination on behalf of my client.  And when I check the rules I

 4     see no reason what that couldn't be allowed.  So that was my request.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me then first ask, Mr. Russo, the wish to

 6     be present at the other side of the videolink, or in situ as

 7     Mr. Mikulicic tells us, would that still exist if the Defence would not

 8     be there?  Is it totally dependant on the meeting the -- the wishes of

 9     the Defence?  Or is there any independent reason why the Prosecution

10     would like to be at the other end of the line?

11             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, are you asking me --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What I'm saying, you said if Mr. Mikulicic will be

13     there, then someone of the Prosecution should be there as well.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  I believe Mr. Saklaine said that, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour, that is our request.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do see that.  But if for whatever reason

18     Mr. Mikulicic would not be there, would there still be a wish to be

19     present at the other end of the line?

20             MR. RUSSO:  No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So it is totally dependant ...

22             The Chamber will have to balance the advantages which you just

23     explained and the disadvantages that may be there as well.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would just like to stress

25     one point, although I think I did it already.  This is a very, very

Page 16297

 1     important witness for the Markac Defence.  So it is my opinion that I, by

 2     all means, have to be present in the very same room with that witness to

 3     conduct a proper cross-examination, and that is also a wish and a request

 4     of my client as well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that you do this upon

 6     instructions.

 7             You say it's a very important witness.  I'd like to see how the

 8     witness response.  Is there anything else, anything specific?  Why is it

 9     -- why is this witness so important for that you that --

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  Maybe just to add, Your Honour, on that topic, I

11     should use a lot of documents in cross-examination of that witness, so

12     the manipulation of the documents is obviously much more convenient

13     in situ situation than via the videolink, although that is that very much

14     depends on the technical facilities.

15             But any way, I do really strongly request that I have to be

16     present in situ in Zagreb office while the cross-examination should be

17     conducted.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Has in the Prosecution any specific view on the

19     matter?

20             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             I believe there is an concern, especially given the fact there

22     will be a protective measures motion for the witness that there is a

23     concern that if the witness sees simply accused for one -- counsel for

24     one accused of whom he will be offering testimony, it may tend to make

25     him think that this is, for some reason, which he is unable to discern,

Page 16298

 1     it may cause the witness additional hesitation in offering testimony.

 2     I'm not sure what the specific advantages are that Mr. Mikulicic points

 3     out.  I understand it may be to his preference to be in the room, look

 4     the witness in the eye, observe the witness's demeanour on testimony.

 5     However, that, I would submit, is for the finder of fact to evaluate the

 6     demeanor of the witness, not for counsel.

 7             It's for that reason, Your Honour, not sure having a videolink

 8     with individuals present during the questioning is necessary.  But that

 9     is why we would also seek to be present, if Mr. Mikulicic is permitted to

10     do so.

11             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, of course, I have nothing to object

12     at the request of the -- my learned friend from the Prosecution office.

13     That is obviously.  And I don't think that the reasoning as to the

14     witness could be in a way intimidated by the presence of only one

15     counsel.  I think this is not a reason for this at all.

16             Why should the witness feel himself uncomfortable because only

17     one counsel is present in situ I cannot see reason for it.

18             Anyway, why should the witness be uncomfortable at all?  I mean,

19     on the other side it is a Prosecution witness, and the Prosecution could

20     instruct the witness on procedural matters in that case, in that very

21     specific case, so I can see no reason why not, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

23             Mr. Mikulicic, how do you imagine this to be done?  Usually in a

24     videolink the Chamber has a constant view on the witness.  How did you

25     imagine that the camera would be used at the other side of the line, if

Page 16299

 1     there would be two counsel and one witness?

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, obviously, I'm not very good in

 3     technicalities, so I haven't those circumstances in my mind when asking

 4     for it.  The only -- the only preference was that I simply should comply

 5     my client's request and cross-examination on the very best way that I can

 6     do.  So I haven't in mind those technicalities, but I mean, just talking

 7     at the top of my head, that could be placed two cameras, so one camera

 8     could be focussed on examiner, whether it will be a Prosecution colleague

 9     on the place, or will be I, or myself.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and would we then receive all the imagines

11     simultaneously in your mind or ...  because it is more than just

12     technicalities.  I take it that you understand that it's more than just

13     the voltage and the zoom in or out.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I am aware of your concern, but what

15     is my position, is that the right of accused vice versa the technical

16     possibilities is something that could not be compared.

17             So whatever it is, I think the right of accused is to be

18     prevailed in such circumstances.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And the right of the accused being what exactly?

20     You're referring to what right exactly?

21             MR. MIKULICIC:  Well, I'm exactly aiming at the right of accused

22     to have an undisturbed cross-examination via witness who is, in that

23     case, particularly very important for the Defence.

24             So I think it is quite obvious that there is completely different

25     situation to examine the witness via videolink than to examine the

Page 16300

 1     witness sitting in a very same room with him.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, if we're not mistaken -- I'm sorry,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic was first on his feet, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 5             Mr. Misetic.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I would just going to add that

 7     there, of course, is a -- in response to Mr. Russo, there is a legitimate

 8     forensic purpose in cross-examination to being able to confront a witness

 9     in person versus via videolink, which is I think what my colleague

10     Mr. Mikulicic is trying to emphasise.  And I just wanted to recall that I

11     think we've had one experience before, the Chamber will recall, with a

12     witness who in middle of cross-examination was willing to even set up a

13     videolink so he wouldn't have to come back at that point, and that's

14     precisely where we're getting at in terms of -- I think the Chamber then

15     made special arrangements to make sure that that witness could come back

16     specifically for that forensic purpose in cross-examination.  I

17     understand that the Chamber has had to weigh the technical possibilities

18     versus that forensic advantage.  But I did want to put that on the

19     record, in response to Mr. Russo.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.

23             If I'm not mistaken, I think there was at least one occasion when

24     the Prosecution was present at a videolink conducting direct examination

25     of a protected witness, and I'm almost sure that it happened on one

Page 16301

 1     occasion, and it was a -- I can't remember if was a woman protected

 2     witness or a male protected witness, but I do recall one occasion that

 3     that occurred.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think this should be a gender-neutral issue.

 5     Apart from that, Mr. Russo, I have to -- was this in this case?  I may

 6     have ...

 7             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I don't recall that happening.  But I

 8     assume if it happened, it is easily found.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will have a look at it at least, and also

10     we'll then consider whether there were any specific reasons, and the

11     Chamber will further consider your request, Mr. Mikulicic.

12             Could I ask whether the other Defence teams would also then want

13     to be present for cross-examination purposes?  Or slowly we move to a

14     situation where almost the Bench could go there.

15             MS. HIGGINS:  We would not seek to be present, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Nor would we, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             The Chamber will --

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, just to add something.

21             Is my understanding that the kind of procedures that we're

22     dealing with on the everyday basis is a procedure that is prescripted by

23     the rules as a so-called normal circumstances.  The videolink is kind of

24     exceptional circumstances where, according to 81 bis, Chamber may order

25     in the interest of justice.

Page 16302

 1             So if we have this in mind, and when we are arguing whether I

 2     could be present or not, I think that is something that I would like the

 3     Chamber as to concerned of.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll consider all the submissions made by the

 5     parties, and the Chamber will give a ruling soon.

 6             Now, what was the date scheduled, do we remember, Mr. Mikulicic?

 7     So that we -- I take it that if you want to be present, you have to

 8     prepare to make arrangements, so, therefore, it is in your interest to

 9     know as soon as possible -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, that will be -- that wouldn't

11     be a problem for me.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But for when was it -- was the testimony

13     scheduled exactly?

14             MR. MISETIC:  I believe it's the 26th of February.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  26th of February.  Today it's the 19th.  That would

16     be -- yes, 26th or 27th.

17             The Chamber will further consider the matter, and to the extent

18     possible, already inform you about the outcome of our deliberations on

19     this matter before the weekend, Mr. Mikulicic.  If not, we'll certainly

20     be in touch with you through our legal officer to tell you when you can

21     expect a decision, but we're trying to have it done before the weekend.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm grateful, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Then, Mr. Misetic.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, just one other procedural matter.

Page 16303

 1             The Court will recall when Witness Lausic testified that there

 2     was a discussion, and he was asked to provide his original diary to the

 3     Zagreb office of the ICTY.  I just wanted to note that we still have not

 4     received anything, and I wanted to get that before the end of the

 5     Prosecution's case, if possible.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The registry informs me that the material will

 8     arrive in The Hague either late this week or early next week.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Russo, are you ready to --

11             MR. RUSSO:  I am, Your Honour.  I just wanted to advise everyone

12     that the first exhibit I'm going to be showing the witness is the map of

13     Benkovac, and I'm going to show him the other maps, just so that

14     everybody is clear that is what I am going to be doing in the beginning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you can have -- already look at the map to

16     see what the map is and -- but it's just a map.

17             MR. RUSSO:  Sure.  That's 65 ter 5186.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps waiting for the arrival of the witness,

19     perhaps we could already have a look at it.

20             Mr. Kehoe, if this map would be used, you oppose against

21     admissions because it was not on the exhibit list.  Could you further

22     explain what the prejudice would be if this map was used to -- to

23     indicate locations, because that's what I expect Mr. Russo to ask the

24     witness to do.

25             MR. KEHOE:  It has to do with -- yes, Mr. President, it has to do

Page 16304

 1     with pre-trial preparation.  Naturally, Your Honour, you were trial

 2     counsel, when you get exhibits from the other side, you go back, look at

 3     those exhibits, examine your files, and do pre-trial preparation with

 4     those exhibits.  During the course of our -- the rolling disclosure by

 5     the Prosecution having had this map, certainly we would have taken

 6     extensive time to go through all the information knowing that the

 7     Prosecution was going to used it.  We didn't know they were going to use

 8     it until late last night.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I prefer to have the witness

10     out of the courtroom while the basis for Mr. Kehoe's objection is --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, one second only.

12             Yes, Mr. Kehoe.

13             MR. KEHOE:  So frankly, Your Honour, it would go to pre-trial

14     preparation.  Certainly as we informed Your Honour, we were discussing a

15     variety of matters with Mr. Rajcic during last week, and during this role

16     in discovery, we certainly showed him many of the exhibits that were part

17     of his annex that were coming in that the Prosecution intended to tender.

18     And certainly this would have been one we would have shown him as well.

19             So even putting that aside just for our own purposes internally,

20     know what the Prosecution is going to attempt to offer goes directly to

21     our pre-trial preparation, which, again, because of the Prosecutor's

22     conduct, they have prevented us from doing so.  Or to the extent that we

23     have been able to do it, we have to do it at the last minute and -- this

24     is just gone on and on, and this is just another instance of it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, just to put matters straight, I take it

Page 16305

 1     your objection is against the use of this map and not about asking

 2     questions to the witness about targets he may have identified or

 3     determined in the Benkovac -- town of Benkovac or the area.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  If we take this -- if we take this particular map

 5     parenthetically and just look at this map, yes, that's the case.  But

 6     again, in response to what Mr. Russo said previously, these are a series

 7     of violations which I think [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  Mr. Kehoe.  Mr. Kehoe.

 9     I asked you a specific question.

10             MR. KEHOE:  I understand.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I did not invite you to repeat what you said earlier

12     as the basis of your objection.

13             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked whether there is any objection against

15     Mr. Russo asking questions about targets in Benkovac in -- or around

16     Benkovac.

17             MR. KEHOE:  And I believe my answer to that is, no.  He can

18     certainly ask that question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, yes.

20             Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  On the basis of what has been said until now, the

24     Chamber sees no reason to sustain the objection.  We'll finally decide

25     the matter at the -- once the map is tendered.

Page 16306

 1             Good morning, Mr. Rajcic.  Mr. Rajcic --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic, I would like to remind you that you are

 4     still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your

 5     testimony, that you would speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

 6     but the truth.

 7             Mr. Russo will now continue his examination-in-chief.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Russo.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           WITNESS:  MARKO RAJCIC [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Examination by Mr. Russo: [Continued]

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rajcic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   You see before you on the screen a map of the area of Benkovac.

16     I'd like to you please indicate, if I could have the assistance of the

17     court usher, I'm going to ask to you indicate the areas where the targets

18     that were fired upon by Croatian forces were located, and I would like to

19     take them one by one.

20             Now, first if you could tell us if you need this image enlarged

21     any, you can let us know.

22        A.   No, thanks, this will do.

23        Q.   As I said, I would like to take the targets one by one.  So if

24     you could first tell us in order of importance; that is in order of

25     military significant, what the first target was in Benkovac that you

Page 16307

 1     fired at.

 2        A.   The first target at Benkovac was the Slobodan Macura barracks;

 3     the second was the police station; the third target was the cross-roads

 4     and a barracks right above the toponym Benkovacko Selo, but I don't think

 5     I can see it here.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now if you would, please, circle the Slobodan Macura

 7     barracks.  And if you are unable to circle only that barracks, then we

 8     can have the image enlarged so that you circle only what you fired at.

 9             So just let us know if you need us to enlarge it, if not, please

10     circle that barracks and place a number 1 next to it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have the right colour for marking?  I always

12     forget which --

13             MR. RUSSO:  It's been a while, Your Honour.  I think we are red.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You're red.

15             You can mark that on the screen.

16             Madam Usher, perhaps you assist the witness.

17             Please mark the first targets, if you take it one by one,

18     Mr. Russo.

19             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.

20        Q.   Please circle the Slobodan Macura barracks and place a number 1

21     next to it.

22        A.   The Slobodan Macura barracks is in the direction of Klicevica,

23     hereabouts.  The police station was precisely determined by the X and Y

24     coordinates.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you add a 1 next to the barracks, and a 2 to

Page 16308

 1     the police station.

 2             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   I believe you indicated that the third target was the

 6     cross-roads.  Can you please circle which cross-roads you are referring

 7     to.

 8        A.   As far as I remember, I would have to look it up on the map.

 9     I'll put a number 3 next to it.

10             And the fourth high-payoff target was in this direction, above

11     this toponym, but we can't see it, we should have to scroll up.

12        Q.   Can you simply place the number 4 directly above the word

13     Benkovacko.

14        A.   Number 4.  But this isn't accurate because the target was further

15     to the north.

16        Q.   I understand that.  Thank you.  We'll note that for the record.

17             Were there any other targets inside the town of Benkovac that

18     were fired at by Croatian forces on either the 4th or 5th of August?

19        A.   I have no information or reports from Artillery Group 5 to be

20     able to say within a degree of certainty whether they fired at that

21     target.  Relying on my memory, without a table of targets or the map that

22     we looked at yesterday, and which was used in the book, I would have to

23     look up the numbers assigned to these targets and possible other targets

24     in the periphery of Benkovac.

25        Q.   And the map that you're referring to, which map is that that you

Page 16309

 1     would need to look at?

 2        A.   Excuse me.

 3             Mr. Russo, yesterday we spoke about the map showing the plan of

 4     activity of the artillery which was made for the book, and the book says

 5     for Artillery Group 5 -- or mentions several marks, and I believe that

 6     these marks are 301 and further -- it continues in sequence.  That's the

 7     map I mean.

 8        Q.   And just to be clear, is that the map which contained the

 9     rectangular target boxes?

10        A.   Yes.  The map which was graphically edited and on which

11     Mr. Brkljaca wrote.  There are numerical marks of the areas where the

12     targets were located, and next to each rectangle there was a number.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you recall from the version of the map which we

14     showed you yesterday, which was simply an enlargement of the picture that

15     appears in the book, do you know where either the original or a copy of

16     that map is?

17        A.   No, I don't.

18        Q.   Can you tell us when the last time you saw a copy of that map was

19     and where?

20        A.   What do you mean, a copy?

21        Q.   I should have been a little bit more clear.  Not a copy in the

22     book itself or what I showed you yesterday.  The actual -- you indicated

23     that the original map was copied for the book.  Is that correct?

24        A.   No, Mr. Russo, that is not what I said.

25        Q.   Can you tell me then, if you know, where the original of that map

Page 16310

 1     is?

 2        A.   No, I can't.

 3        Q.   Other than the copy that's in the book, do you know where any

 4     other copies of that map are?

 5        A.   I apologise, Mr. Russo.  You're talking about copies.  There is

 6     no copy of the original.  In Croatian, the -- every detail from the

 7     original was transmitted or copied by hand upon another -- another copy.

 8        Q.   And that other copy that you're talking about, do you know where

 9     that is?

10        A.   I, again, fail to understand "the other copy."

11             If you mean the copy which was hand-drawn, drawn by hand, that

12     was used for scanning and compressing it to A4 format, so that it can be

13     used as an attachment to the book, if that's what you're referring to.  I

14     think it should have been made, and this documentation which was manually

15     made, rather than copied mechanically or by means of -- or using

16     technological aids was in the possession of General Gotovina.

17        Q.   And how do you know it was in the possession of General Gotovina?

18        A.   Once we finished manually copying these maps, the procedure was

19     the following.  The next step was scanning and putting on photographic

20     film.  This was used for printing the book.  All these sets were bound in

21     files and placed with General Gotovina.

22             I know because the second edition of the book, when it was being

23     published, all that material was again -- and I repeat, it was manually

24     copied, was used for the second edition of the book, because there were

25     two editions.

Page 16311

 1        Q.   When was the last time you saw that manual copy in

 2     General Gotovina's possession?

 3        A.   I apologise, I have a problem with ...

 4             I was still working as a chief of department at the main defence

 5     inspectorate.  When the second edition of the book was being prepared,

 6     one map was missing from the set; I don't remember which.  I don't

 7     remember -- or, rather, sorry.  It was necessary to make a new manual

 8     copy.

 9             As far as I remember, General Gotovina was still the chief

10     inspector.  Based on the book, I, once more, copied this miniature

11     version of the map, of -- A4 format copied to another map, and that was

12     then again scanned and compressed and put on film.  That's the last time

13     I saw that map, which was used for the book.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I want to continue asking you a few questions about

15     this particular map.  However, first I'd like to finish with the map we

16     have on the screen right now of Benkovac, so we'll come back to the map

17     that you saw in General Gotovina's possession.

18             With respect to what's in -- what you circled here in Benkovac,

19     did you plan to fire at any other targets than the ones you've indicated

20     on this map?

21        A.   To the best of my recollection, in the wider area around

22     Benkovac, the focus of our planned fire and our marking of enemy

23     positions was in the area of Kozlovac.  There is the north western part,

24     above the topographic mark Skupac.  It is marked as a well, because that

25     is the usual way wells are marked on a map.  And there is a road in

Page 16312

 1     yellow --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Sorry.  I don't mean to cut

 3     you off.  I should have been more specific with my question.  I'm only

 4     seeking targets inside the town of Benkovac proper.  Other that the ones

 5     that you have circled here, numbers 1, 2, and 3, were there any other

 6     targets inside Benkovac proper that you had planned to fire artillery at?

 7        A.   Mr. Russo, I cannot remember now.  The premium targets I

 8     remember.  There may have been more, possibly along the roads leading out

 9     from the city, toward the periphery.

10        Q.   Did anyone -- or were any of the artillery units of the Croatian

11     forces firing at targets in Benkovac that you did not select?

12        A.   I have no information that they did.

13        Q.   If, in fact, they had, as the chief of artillery for the Split

14     Military District, would that information have come to your attention?

15        A.   According to the standard operating procedure, they would have

16     had to inform me of such incidents from the forward command post in

17     Zadar.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, at this time I would offer the exhibit

20     into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Objections?

22             MR. KEHOE:  Same objection.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.

25             Mr. Registrar, would you please assign an exhibit number.

Page 16313

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes Exhibit P2327.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Map marked by the witness and is admitted into

 3     evidence.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

 6             If we could go into private session for just a moment, Your

 7     Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16314











11  Pages 16314-16320 redacted. Private session.















Page 16321

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21             MR. RUSSO:

22        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this map as the one that we looked

23     at yesterday?

24        A.   We also looked at this map yesterday.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And, first, can you confirm whether this is a precise

Page 16322

 1     copy of its original?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And, again, when was the last time that you saw the original of

 4     this map?

 5        A.   When we were working on the book.

 6        Q.   Is that the first edition of the book?

 7        A.   Yes, the first edition.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, I think the purpose to get it on the

 9     screen was to identify whether this was the map shown and left in the

10     hands of the Gotovina Defence or whether it was another map.  I do

11     understand that this is not the map.  Could you please seek confirmation

12     of that.

13             Mr. Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, first, if we could go into private

15     session for one minute.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session again.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16323

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Russo.

Page 16324

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, did you give a copy of this map to the

 3     Gotovina Defence?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   And do you know where any accurate-sized copies of this map; in

 6     other words, ones in which we can see inside the target boxes where you

 7     indicated that it would be numbers.  Do you know where any copies of that

 8     are?

 9        A.   A copy of the map we have on our screens now is something that I

10     don't know the whereabouts of.  Save for the fact that I see it here and

11     that I have a signed book, I don't know where the map can be found.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. RUSSO:  If we could now have Exhibit P2322, MFI.

14             And if we could move to page 3 of this exhibit.

15        Q.   Looking at this map on the screen, Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise

16     this as the map that we took a look at -- one of the maps that we took a

17     look at yesterday?

18        A.   Yes.  That's the map, a copy of my original, that we looked at

19     yesterday.

20        Q.   And is this the map that you gave to the Gotovina Defence for a

21     period of time?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. RUSSO:  If we could now have --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, yesterday the witness testified that he

Page 16325

 1     made a mistake when drafting this map.  And it was unclear to me what the

 2     effect of the mistake would have been, in terms of understanding the

 3     reach of the weaponry, and I'd like you to explore that, perhaps to ask

 4     him what exactly is wrong.  He said to some extent it was not on this

 5     map.  Of course, now we have cut out part of it.  If I look at the --

 6     page 3 in its entirety, perhaps we can show it to the witness and ask him

 7     to indicate where the mistake is because I have got no idea whether it

 8     has any consequence for any followup matter.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour.  My understanding was, and I think

10     Counsel will correct me if I'm wrong, that the mistake was with respect

11     to the sector of fire for a 203-millimetre weapon, that it was not

12     accurately depicted on this map.  It is my understanding from the

13     witness's testimony that was not one of the weapons that fired on Knin.

14     Nevertheless, I will explore with the witness --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If the parties agree that it's a matter which has no

16     further consequences, then, of course, I'm satisfied with that.  But not

17     knowing it, I want to -- wanted to explore whether two weeks from now,

18     five weeks from now, we have question which is not answered.

19             MR. KEHOE:  I believe my learned friend's assessment is accurate.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then we don't have to pay any further

21     attention to it.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             If we could please have 65 ter 7169.  And this is a map of

25     Obrovac.

Page 16326

 1             If we could just focus a bit more on the area of Obrovac proper.

 2     Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Rajcic, I'd like to engage in the same exercise here

 4     with Obrovac as we did for Benkovac and have you identify for us the

 5     targets that were actually fired at on the 4th and 5th of August by the

 6     Croatian forces.  And again let's take them one by one, beginning with

 7     the most high-value target.

 8        A.   I don't know which targets were fired at in Obrovac.

 9        Q.   Who planned the targets in Obrovac?

10        A.   I was planning them for Obrovac, when it comes to the artillery

11     rocket groups.

12        Q.   And are you simply unable to recall what those targets were?

13        A.   For the artillery of the corps, I think that one of the plans

14     included only the bridge in Benkovac [as interpreted].

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness apparently marked the bridge.  Could I

16     invite you to put a letter -- a 1 next to it.

17             MR. KEHOE:  I think he is talking about Obrovac.  Is -- the

18     translation on 34:15 says Benkovac, if I'm not mistaken.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have the map of Obrovac in front of us.

20     Therefore, I take it that must be a mistake.

21             You did mark the bridge in Obrovac as -- as a target you

22     remember.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the level of planning, that is.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So not to say that it was fired at, but that

25     was a planned target.

Page 16327

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Russo.

 3             MR. RUSSO:

 4        Q.   Can you indicate to us any other planned targets in Obrovac?

 5        A.   In the town of Obrovac itself, no.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And I notice that your answer was -- your first

 7     indication of a target was specifically with respect to corps artillery.

 8     Were there any targets which were planned to be fired at by artillery

 9     units other than the corps artillery?

10        A.   For engaging the targets by subordinate units, the chiefs of

11     artillery were the ones drafting the use of artillery plans in the

12     brigades, based on the intelligence they received.

13        Q.   Were the targets that were selected by the chiefs of artillery in

14     Obrovac, were they sent to either you or to General Gotovina for review

15     or approval?

16        A.   That was not the procedure in place; in other words, that

17     General Gotovina should receive such a report.  I have the documents at

18     my disposal, and I coordinate my work with chiefs of artillery of the

19     various units, and that's how we complete the planning stage.

20     Preparations, that is.

21        Q.   That was my question.  I wanted to know if either you or

22     General Gotovina were made aware of what targets were selected by the

23     operational group chiefs of artillery.  Were you made aware of those?

24        A.   I wasn't aware of the targets selected or fired at, for that

25     matter, in Obrovac.

Page 16328

 1        Q.   Do you know if General Gotovina was aware of what targets were

 2     fired at in Obrovac?

 3        A.   I don't, no.

 4        Q.   Now, if you don't know what targets were fired at by the

 5     operations group chiefs of artillery, how do you know they complied with

 6     the order given to shell the town of Obrovac?

 7        A.   In the chain of command, the first filter is the brigade

 8     commander, in accordance with strict instructions.  The second filter is

 9     the commander of the operations group.  And then we come to the level of

10     the Military District.

11        Q.   I understand that.  What I'm attempting to determine is how you

12     know whether -- if you don't know what they fired at, then how do you

13     know if they're doing what they were told to do or doing something else?

14        A.   I base my statement on the fact that it was a disciplined army.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, could we further explore the witness

17     exactly meant when he said, page 35, line 18:  "I have the documents at

18     my disposal, and I coordinate my work with chiefs of artillery."

19             Witness, what documents were you referring to, and what kind of

20     coordination you meant there?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was the

22     procedure:  I was referring to the database of all the targets selected,

23     based on the information gathering concerning the lie of the land and the

24     general area.  I apologise.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, please.

Page 16329

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 2             So once such a database is produced for the entire area, every

 3     intelligence officer of the brigade works out, together with his chief of

 4     artillery, the possible firing positions within their area of

 5     responsibility.

 6             In this way, a precise selection is made and firing tables or

 7     documents produced for the detected positions or targets.  That's the

 8     sort of the documentation I had in mind.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

11             MR. MISETIC:  I believe we should check page 37, line 6.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll do that.

13             MR. MISETIC:  With respect to the last three words, I believe the

14     reference was to a different document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             You said:  "In this way, a precise selection is made," and you

17     said then what was produced.

18             You said something that was produced for the detected positions

19     or targets.  What was produced?  It's -- Mr. Misetic thinks it might be

20     mistranslated, so if you would please repeat that portion of your answer.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the drafting of

22     a final document, containing a list of targets for every area of

23     responsibility of the unit facing the enemy.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No firing tables were prepared at that stage?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 16330

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             So you have a full set now of a -- as you said, a -- a database

 3     with targets, and then targets would be selected at the brigade level.

 4     Were you then informed about what targets had been selected?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had information from the chief of

 6     artillery, or chiefs of artillery, of the brigades, and I saw that sort

 7     of document containing a selection of targets up to the level of the

 8     possible engagement of brigade artillery.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think then what Mr. Russo tried to learn is

10     whether there were any such targets in - we're talking about Obrovac -

11     that you were aware of, you learned about through this selection

12     procedure and follow-up information to you.  Any other target than the

13     one you indicated on the map, which was the bridge?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.  I haven't seen this

15     in 15 years, so I can only rely on my memory.

16             In principle, in planning, you mark the targets, if I can mark it

17     here, along the communications lines leading out of Benkovac [as

18     interpreted], and I remember this cross-roads here.  But I repeat, I'm

19     now speaking from memory.  I cannot assert this with any degree of

20     certainty.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you at least put a 2 next to the circle you

22     just marked on the map.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Page 38, line 17, again, Benkovac is mentioned

Page 16331

 1     and not Obrovac.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President did you intend --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that's --

 4             You refer to this cross-roads near to Obrovac?  On our

 5     transcript, it appears as Benkovac, but that's apparently a mistake.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot influence that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.  He circled several things and a

 9     2 next to one.  Are we talking about 2 for all of those, for the

10     Chamber's purposes?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I missed one, as a matter of fact.

12             You circled the bridge.  You added a 1 to that.  There was a

13     cross-roads south of Obrovac where you did put a 2.

14             Now you also circled something which appears in red as quite

15     close to the river, a little bit west from the centre of Obrovac, where

16     we see in red 6A.  Could you tell us what was that, not a cross-roads,

17     but a road leading out of Obrovac?  Is that why you marked it?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a road leading out of

19     Obrovac, westward and along the river.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... [Overlapping

21     speakers] ...

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the eastern -- the eastern

23     road runs along the river too.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you have marked that.  So what you did,

25     you marked the exit road north of the river, eastbound and westbound, and

Page 16332

 1     a cross-roads just south of Obrovac as the targets that are still in your

 2     memory, targets brigade level.

 3             Now you add immediately another marking, which is also an exit

 4     road south of the town of Obrovac, where the road seems to be a hairpin.

 5             It's now marked five times.  I think we can stop marking at this

 6     moment, Mr. Rajcic, and if we --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  It was

10     all in good intentions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You have visualized that exit roads that were in

12     your memory as a planned targets.

13             Mr. Russo, if you tender it very quickly into evidence, then you

14     avoid further marking.

15             MR. RUSSO:  Unfortunately, Mr. President, I --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, of course, please proceed.

17             MR. RUSSO:  The witness indicated at page 38, line 14, he says:

18             "I'm not sure.  I haven't seen this in 15 years, so I can only

19     rely on my memory.  In principle, in planning you mark the targets.  If

20     can I mark it here."  And then he indicates these -- I was under the

21     impression that the witness was marking what he thought, in principle,

22     would be selected.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I understood this to be what he would expect to be

24     and what is not contradicted by his memory.

25             Is that ...

Page 16333

 1             MR. RUSSO:  On that basis, Your Honour, I will offer this into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Same objection, Mr. --

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the objection is denied.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please assign a number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will become Exhibit P2328.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P2328, map of Obrovac marked by the witness, is

10     admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I realize it is time for a break.  I

13     would just ask for one thing over the break.  The witness has now been

14     provided with copies of his documents.

15             In particular, I'd like to ask the Court ask him to review the

16     Official Note without discussing it further, so we can get from him what

17     it is in there he either agrees with or disagrees with.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The suggestion is that we give some homework to the

19     witness.

20             I hear of no objections.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No break?

22             MR. KEHOE:  [Previous translation continues] ... once again, and

23     if the witness could take his headphones off.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you take your headphones off for a

25     second, Mr. Rajcic.

Page 16334

 1             Yes, he has to stay here because --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  I'm not quite sure what counsel has gotten in mind,

 3     if there was some type of adoption procedure in mind.  But, again, this

 4     was a document that was made for the purposes of this proceeding.  It is

 5     it not his statement, and in no fashion should it be this -- this

 6     methodology be a use for him to adopt the statement, certainly when going

 7     through an exercise of asking questions, if that is it where counsel is

 8     going, we object.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

10             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm not going to reargue the issue about

11     the Official Notes.  This is an Official Note.  You know our position

12     about which proceeding it was taken for.  It purports to be a summary of

13     the witness's statement.  I don't think there is a problem with asking

14     the witness to look at it and to agree or disagree with whatever portions

15     are in there that he may have said or not said, during his interview.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic.  Mr. Rajcic, you will be provided with

18     an Official Note in your own language -- well, I don't have to explain to

19     you, I take it, what an Official Note purports to be.  That is, that's a

20     summary of a statement.

21             Now, what the Chamber would like you to do and what Mr. Russo

22     invited us to ask you, is that you read through it during the next break

23     - we will not deprive you from your coffee but some of your time - and

24     then identify portions where you disagree.  That means that you deny that

25     this reflects what you said during that interview and other portions

Page 16335

 1     where you said, Well, this reflects what I said, even though not in your

 2     own precise words, but the gist of what you said is reflected accurately

 3     in the Official Note.

 4             Would you be willing to do that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm willing to do that.

 6     Coffee is good, and that will make up for everything.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will have a break, and we will resume at

 8     five minutes past 11.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic, thank you for giving up some of your

12     time.

13             Mr. Russo, you may proceed.

14             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could briefly move

15     into private session.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16336











11  Pages 16336-16359 redacted. Private session.















Page 16360

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11                           --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, briefly two matters.

13             First of all, in view of the timing, the Chamber will explore

14     possibilities to find additional time in court so as not to -- and will,

15     as always, consult with the parties and look in everyone's agenda to see

16     whether we can find some additional time in court.

17             Second, Mr. Kuzmanovic, you, I think it was you who drew our

18     attention to videolink with counsel present at the other side.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I looked at that, and I'm

20     probably mistaken.  I -- it was -- registry I was thinking of and not --

21     I looked, myself, at all the transcripts for the protected witnesses, and

22     I was going to let the Court know that before the end of the day.  I was

23     wrong.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are always a bit hesitant, and so if we do

25     not know something that it isn't there because it could well be, but it

Page 16361

 1     seems that our findings are concurrent in this respect.

 2             Mr. Russo, please proceed.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             If we could please have 65 ter 4866.

 5             Mr. President, I don't know if we're still in private session.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I should have put this on the record.  We ended

 7     last -- the last portion of the hearing, we ended in private session, and

 8     upon on my instruction, Mr. Registrar made the start of this -- part of

 9     the session in open session, as you can see on the transcript.  It was

10     done upon my instructions and, therefore, the approval is there.  But

11     it's good that the parties know where we are.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             65 ter 4866.  And if we could enlarge the section of the town of

14     Gracac proper.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, I'm going to ask you to engage in the same exercise

16     here and ask to you please identify, if you can, the targets which, to

17     your knowledge were actually fired at by Croatian forces on the 4th and

18     5th of August?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the same exercise?  Actually fired at, was

20     the exercise on the previous maps?

21             MR. RUSSO:  It was the exercise in terms of Benkovac.  In terms

22     of Obrovac, I believe the witness indicated to us he didn't recall which

23     ones were actually fired at, and then we defaulted to the planning.

24             MR. KEHOE:  I take issue.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That is not my recollection as a matter of fact.

Page 16362

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Not mine either.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clear that you're now asking this for Gracac.

 3     But it's not my recollection that the same question was put, and if I am

 4     wrong, Mr. Russo, please --

 5             MR. RUSSO:  I will have a look at that, Your Honour.  In that

 6     case --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I will also have a look at it, and to the extent I

 8     can assist you, I will do so.  But it's clear now that for Gracac, you're

 9     asking to indicate targets that were fired at ...

10             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  In Operation Storm.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. RUSSO:

14        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, if you would not mind please indicating to us first

15     the target of highest value that was fired upon by Croatian forces in

16     Gracac on the 4th of August.

17        A.   I can't show it you here, because this was the operations axis of

18     the special MUP unit under the command of General Mladen Markac.

19        Q.   Are you unaware of anything that was fired at in Gracac?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the answer.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not aware of the

23     targets fired at in Gracac.

24             MR. RUSSO:

25        Q.   Did the artillery group TS-5 fire at any targets in Gracac?

Page 16363

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   You drew the plans for artillery for the corps artillery;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   I made the plan of use, but I did not have an overseeing role in

 5     its execution.

 6        Q.   Did your plan include TS-5 firing on any targets in Gracac?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And can you tell us why you don't know whether that plan was

 9     executed?

10        A.   Because I received an order from General Gotovina on the 3rd of

11     August at 9.45 in Zadar, in the presence of General Markac, his Chief of

12     Staff, I believe, and chief of artillery.  General Gotovina issued the

13     order to me -- issued the order to me verbally and told me that I should

14     detach elements of artillery from Artillery Group 5 for operational

15     purposes of the forces of the MUP special unit under the command of

16     General Markac.

17        Q.   I understand that the order to be -- that you detach certain

18     elements of Artillery Group 5 for operational purposes of the MUP, did

19     that leave TS-5 with no artillery?  Or did TS-5, after that detachment,

20     still have artillery which it could use, according to your plan?

21        A.   It was left without that part of artillery.

22        Q.   And with the artillery that was left to it, the artillery which

23     remained with TS-5, is there a reason why that artillery did not carry

24     out your plan to fire on targets in Gracac?

25        A.   The reason was that Gracac was not within their range, as well as

Page 16364

 1     Benkovac -- or, rather, sorry, Obrovac.

 2        Q.   Now, I just want to be clear about what you're telling us before

 3     I ask you to mark anything on the map.

 4             You -- you are not aware of anything that was fired at in Gracac

 5     by either the corps artillery, brigade artillery, or MUP special police

 6     units; is that correct?  You do don't have any idea what anybody fired at

 7     in Gracac?

 8        A.   No, no.  No.

 9        Q.   No, you don't agree with what I'm saying; or, no, you are not

10     aware of any of that?

11        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I don't know anything about it.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, prepares we try to clarify the earlier

14     issue that ...

15             In relation to Benkovac you asked, What were the targets fired

16     at?  The witness marked them on the map.  Then you asked him whether any

17     other targets were fired at, to his knowledge.

18             Then we moved to Obrovac.  There you started putting the same

19     question to you.  When the witness said he didn't know, then we continued

20     with targets, not necessarily fired upon, but then he pointed to the

21     bridge and to the exit roads, et cetera.  So the second exercise

22     developed in a bit different way as the first exercise developed.  And I

23     think for Gracac everything now is clear from the answers.

24             Does this sufficiently clarify the issue, Mr. Kehoe.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 16365

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 2             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Given, Mr. Rajcic, that you can't give us any information about

 6     what was actually fired at, I would like to discuss the plans which you

 7     had drawn, the targets which you had selected in Gracac to be fired at.

 8     Could you please indicate to us those targets, only inside the town of

 9     Gracac proper, that you had planned for TS-5 to fire artillery at?

10        A.   I will not be 100 percent precise.  Generally speaking, the

11     following were planned.  Cross-roads, for 130-millimetre cannons.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you mark them on the map, because we have a

13     lot of cross-roads.

14             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

15             MR. RUSSO:

16        Q.   Thank you for that, Mr. Rajcic.

17             In addition to the cross-roads that you've indicated, and I

18     understand that this is not something that you can testify to with

19     100 percent accuracy, nevertheless, were there any other targets in

20     Gracac that you believed were of sufficient military value to have

21     targeted for artillery fire?

22        A.   In the town of Gracac, there were no such military targets, as to

23     could have been taken into consideration for firing with a view to

24     possibly gaining military advantage.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 16366

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, at this time I would move for

 2     admission of this exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Same objection, I take it Mr. --

 4             The objection is overruled.

 5             Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P2329.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P2329, map of Gracac marked by the witness, is

 8     admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             If we could now please have 65 ter 7055.

11        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this as the first reconstruction

12     that you put together in connection with your work for the Republic of

13     Croatia?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to take you through just a few sections of

16     this analysis, or this reconstruction.

17             MR. RUSSO:  Let's move first to page 3, section 1.

18        Q.   And this is the second tab of your binder, Mr. Rajcic.  Page 3,

19     section 1 in English, and it is the same in the B/C/S.

20             Now, in this section, Mr. Rajcic, you list the artillery which

21     was available to the Split Military District before Kozjak 95, and

22     specifically, you referred to the brigade artillery at section 1.2.  And

23     there you list the 4th Guards Brigade.  There's an entry for the SVLR,

24     the self-propelled multiple rocket launcher.  And it indicates that it is

25     a 128-millimetre MB 21.  Is that correct?

Page 16367

 1        A.   122 is what it should read.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  If we could move to page 5, section 2, and that is

 4     also the same in the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   And here you discuss the organisation of the artillery,

 6     specifically in section 2.1.1.  You indicate that the corps artillery,

 7     that is, the artillery and artillery rocket groups, TRS-1, TRS-2, TS-3,

 8     TS-4, and TS-5 "were under the direct command of the commander of the

 9     Military District, Croatian forces."

10             Can you tell the Trial Chamber to whom you were referring in that

11     quoted portion.

12        A.   To all the elements of the artillery rocket groups and artillery

13     groups, without the element that was detached for General Markac.

14        Q.   And those artillery groups and artillery rocket groups were under

15     the command of General Gotovina?

16        A.   Yes.  1, 2, 3, 4, minus 5.

17        Q.   Now, at section 3.1 which is just towards the bottom of the page.

18             MR. RUSSO:  And if we could move to the next page in the English

19     there.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, you read TS-5 earlier, where the document

21     reads TRS-five.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.  That was, actually, my next question coming up,

24     Your Honour.

25        Q.   In section 3.1, you discuss the structure and combat deployment

Page 16368

 1     of the corps artillery, and I was going to ask to you look specifically

 2     at TRS-5 which appears, I believe, it is on page 7.  If we go to the next

 3     page in the English version also over on the B/C/S, it lists TRS-5.

 4     However, you indicated a bit further down that several pieces of the

 5     artillery of TRS-5 were detached and sent to MUP special forces including

 6     the 122-millimetre self-propelled rocket launcher.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Give me a moment, please.

 8             Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   Would then the decision of TRS change to TS, since the rocket

10     system was removed from that group?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             Now, at the beginning of section 4 - and this is on page 7 in the

14     English, and page 6 in the B/C/S - you discuss -- actually, I'd like to

15     move to 4.2.1, which is the following page.

16             MR. RUSSO:  If we move just a bit further down.

17        Q.   Now, in section 4.2.1 you list what you refer to as "operational

18     level targets."  For the corps artillery, that is, TS-3, TS-4, and TS-5

19     in the populated areas of Knin, Benkovac, and Gracac.

20             I would like it take you through now the targets in Knin and ask

21     you to identify those.  And if you would, please, I'm going to pull up an

22     aerial photograph of Knin.

23             MR. RUSSO:  That's Exhibit P62.

24        Q.   And I'm going to be making reference, Mr. Rajcic, to your

25     reconstruction here in front of you, so if could you have that ready,

Page 16369

 1     we'll take these targets one by one.

 2             Now, Mr. Rajcic, given the size of this picture, what I'm going

 3     to have you do is, we're going to enlarge sections of the town to a

 4     sufficient size to allow to you identify particular targets, and then

 5     we'll proceed in that fashion.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please focus on the area

 7     between the listings parliament and railroad station and bring up a very

 8     large section of that.  If it is possible to enlarge it a bit more.  Just

 9     a little bit more.  And move it a little bit to the left.  Yes, thank

10     you.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Rajcic, the first target that you list in your

12     reconstruction is of the Main Staff of the so-called VRSK in Knin.  I'd

13     like to you please circle that target on this map and place a number 1

14     next to it.

15             And if you need the map to be larger, just let us know, and we

16     can enlarge it further.

17        A.   Yes, please.

18             The -- if it can be enlarged so that it shows all the relevant

19     parts for you, but I'd like to have it bigger, and it would be much

20     better to have the image in colour.

21        Q.   I do agree with you there, Mr. Rajcic.  Unfortunately, we don't

22     have a coloured version, but we can certainly make this bigger for you.

23             MR. RUSSO:  If we could have it enlarged a few levels more.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That will make it that much more

25     difficult for me.

Page 16370

 1             MR. RUSSO:

 2        Q.   I understand, and when you indicate the targets, if there's a

 3     particular problem in the location of a particular target, certainly let

 4     me know.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  But, Mr. Registrar, if it is possible to go a little

 6     bit larger and then move a little bit over to the right.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Now, on this, can you please mark -- circle the location of the

 8     Main Staff of the so-called VRSK in Knin.

 9        A.   Yes, I can.  I can recognise the location.  I had a desk there

10     for a while myself.  Complete with the former JNA hall.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   Should I mark with 1 or ...

13        Q.   Yes, please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the next target that you list is the

16     headquarters of the Ministry of Defence of the so-called RSK in Knin.

17     Can you please circle that target on this map and place a number 2 next

18     to it.

19        A.   I would have to have the coordinates here.  But I do believe that

20     it was the same building.  I found that in the office where I had my desk

21     as the chief of artillery, there used to be the office of an official of

22     the Ministry of Defence of the RSK.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In that case, can you also place a 2 underneath -- or

24     right next to where you had the 1.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 16371

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And the third target you list is the communication

 2     centre of the so-called VRSK in Knin, and I'd like to you please circle

 3     that target and place a number 3 next to it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, just for the record the two adjacent

 5     rectangles were marked in the beginning, so to cover 1, and then 2 to be

 6     included, and the two not separate.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, if could you please circle the communication centre

10     which you were referring to.

11        A.   As for the communication centre, I think it was housed in the

12     main post office, which housed the communication system of the entire

13     general area.

14             I will try to pinpoint the exact location as far as I can, though

15     a margin of error is possible.

16        Q.   Thank you thank you very much for that.

17             And the fourth target you list is --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness added a 3 to that marking.

19             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   The fourth target that you list is barracks in the area of the

23     town of Knin.  And I wasn't certain from reading that whether you were

24     referring to one barracks or more than one barracks.  Perhaps you could

25     tell us that first, and then we can decide moving this photograph or not.

Page 16372

 1        A.   It's -- should I -- it says here "barracks" in plural.  Barracks

 2     in the general area of Knin and in other towns, there were the total of

 3     17 military installations from Grahovo through to Velebit.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  Before we move on let me simply move this into

 5     evidence.  I'll offer this at this time, Your Honour.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  [Microphone not activated]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P2330.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P2330 is admitted into evidence.

10             English is not my mother tongue, Mr. Russo.  But I do understand

11     that barracks, although linguistically, is plural, nevertheless could

12     refer to one single construction even.  So, therefore, the plural and the

13     singular, we should be very careful to ask about more barracks or one

14     barracks because one barracks is still the plural.

15             MR. RUSSO:  That's what I'm attempting to discover,

16     Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The -- please proceed.

18             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

19        Q.   In terms of the target that you indicated here in your

20     reconstruction, which barracks in Knin are you referring to?  And if

21     you're referring to more than one, tell us which ones.

22        A.   The first and most important is the Slavko Rodic barracks.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And if we could please Exhibit P62 brought up again,

24     we'll have that area enlarged for you.

25             MR. RUSSO:  If we move it all the way over to the left, I believe

Page 16373

 1     it will ... and a bit up.  Actually, if we could zoom out.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, if you could simply circle the area of the barracks,

 3     the Slavko Rodic barracks, and mark it with the number 4.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             Now, before we move on -- well, we will move on.

 7             MR. RUSSO:  If we can have this marked and admitted,

 8     Mr. President.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  No objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2331, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P2331 is admitted into evidence.

13             Mr. Russo, if you would have asked the witness whether the

14     portion marked and mentioned and referred to as Knin army barracks would,

15     be the barracks he meant, we would have been far more efficient.  Saves

16     an exhibit.  Northern barracks is -- that's apparently the only issue.

17     Let's not waste more time on it.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could have again P62

20     brought up.

21        Q.   And the next target you list, Mr. Rajcic, is the railway station

22     in Knin.

23             MR. RUSSO:  If we could move the photograph over to the right and

24     a bit down.

25        Q.   If could you please circle that target and place the number 5

Page 16374

 1     next to it.  Oh, my apologies.  I believe the next target you in fact

 2     listed was the police station in Knin.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  If we could move the photograph over to the left.  A

 4     bit more.

 5        Q.   Now if you could identify for us the location of that target and

 6     place a 5 next to it.

 7        A.   To the extent I can find my way here, this is where the police

 8     station was.  I'll put a 5 next to it.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. RUSSO:  If we could have this now marked and admitted.  I'm

11     sorry.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  I did this with the

13     reservation that I need the X and Y coordinates to mark this.  But we can

14     proceed.

15             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.  That's understood, Mr. Rajcic.  Thank you.

16             Mr. President --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You tender it into evidence.  No objections.

18             Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P2332, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             If we could, once again, have P62 and focus on the area of the

24     railway station.  That's fine, thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, if you could please circle for us the target which

Page 16375

 1     you indicated as the railway station in Knin, and place a number 6 next

 2     to it.

 3        A.   Talking about this target, and with regard to the photograph I

 4     have in front of me, the target is too wide or too deep depending on how

 5     you look at it.  I need the X, Y, and Z coordinates again.  But I will

 6     identify the target roughly.

 7             You want me to place the number 6 here?

 8        Q.   Yes, please.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And in connection with that, I would ask you whether your

11     designation of the railway station as a target was intended to include

12     just the main railway tracks, or the station itself, or both, or anything

13     else?

14        A.   The intention was to damage the tracks, to prevent trains from

15     going through.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. RUSSO:  If we could have this marked and admitted,

18     Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P2333, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.  If we could have the full P62 now.

23        Q.   The next target you list, Mr. Rajcic, is -- or are bridges in the

24     town of Knin which I take to be more than one bridge.  However, I will

25     ask you to circle the bridges to which you refer.

Page 16376

 1             MR. RUSSO:  And if we could have the full photograph of P62.

 2     Thank you.

 3        Q.   Are you able, Mr. Rajcic, to identify here for us the bridges to

 4     which you refer in your reconstruction?

 5        A.   We would have to zoom in on the southern part, because I

 6     recognise the barracks where UNPROFOR was, and it should be thereabouts.

 7             Could you focus in on the castle area?

 8        Q.   If you need it further focussed, Mr. Rajcic, just let us know.

 9        A.   I can see one bridge but not the other.

10        Q.   Then if you could simply mark the one bridge.

11        A.   Number 7, right?

12        Q.   I believe that's correct, yes.

13        A.   [Marks]

14             MR. RUSSO:  And, Mr. President, I will offer this into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P2334, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P2334 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. RUSSO:  And if we could have another fresh version of P62.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Rajcic, if you could guide us as to where the next

20     bridge you believe is located.

21        A.   The bridge across the Butiznica river is in the direction of

22     Gracac, where you go from Knin to Otric.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could move the photograph all

24     the way to the left and focus the area below where it says "Knin army

25     barracks."  Bring that down a bit.  Thank you.

Page 16377

 1        Q.   Do you see the bring you are referring to in this photograph,

 2     Mr. Rajcic?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Is that where you see indicated Butiznica bridge -- Butiznica

 5     river, I'm sorry, is that the river to which you're referring?

 6        A.   Yes.  It says Butiznica river.  We can follow the stream,

 7     downstream, and in the area around this mark that says TO Madesevac, it

 8     should be there somewhere.  That is in the lower right corner.

 9        Q.   I see.  So is it beyond the area which is photographed?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now the final target that you indicate are a

12     cross-roads in the town of Knin, and I'll ask you to indicate to us where

13     those cross-roads are and circle those.

14        A.   That cross-roads should be in Kninsko Polje, in the direction

15     towards Dinara.  The cross-roads Strmica-Vrlika.

16        Q.   If we could move to the top left corner of the photograph, I

17     believe at this magnification.

18             Can you guide us from here, Mr. Rajcic, as to where those

19     cross-roads are?

20        A.   No, I can't.  There are too many roads and cross-roads in these

21     outskirts of Knin, so I cannot identify it fast.

22        Q.   Are you able to tell us if the cross-roads your referring to is

23     somewhere between the area of the hospital and downtown Knin, or if it's

24     somewhere west or north-west -- or north of the hospital area?

25        A.   I think it should be in the north-east of that area, toward

Page 16378

 1     Vrlika.  It is outside Knin proper.  However I don't know whether from an

 2     administrative point of view that is also considered part of the town of

 3     Knin.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could move the photograph down

 6     --I'm sorry, not -- right.  If we could put it back where it was.  And if

 7     you could move it slowly downwards.

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Rajcic, if you could tell me if it is located -- what

 9     you consider to be this area of cross-roads, is it anywhere on this

10     photograph or is simply outside the area of this photograph?

11             MR. RUSSO:  If we could move it up just a bit more.

12        A.   This -- or, rather, that cross-roads is not in the area shown.

13             MR. RUSSO:

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the targets that you've identified in that

15     section and that you have circled for us here on these various maps, were

16     those targets which were actually fired upon during Operation Storm?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And can you tell us whether, in addition to those targets that

19     you've identified, there were any other areas or locations inside the

20     town of Knin proper that were actually fired at on the 4th or 5th of

21     August by Croatian forces?

22        A.   They fired at the cross-roads beyond the barracks, the northern

23     camp or Slavko Rodic.  Should I mark it or -- whenever I mark, it's done

24     with the caveat that I need the X, Y, and Z coordinates.

25             It could be this cross-roads near the barracks or this one.  It's

Page 16379

 1     hard for me to say, based on this black and white photograph with all

 2     this greenery here.  So it is either one or the other.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And I would simply ask you to write the letter C, or

 4     simply just write the word "cross-roads" on there.  If that is possible

 5     to do.  If you can just write "cross-roads" somewhere between those two.

 6        A.   This is the KV hospital in the table of targets and not the

 7     cross-roads.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, before you mark anything else, I want to make sure I

 9     understand what you're indicating to us.

10             When you say the KV hospital in the table of targets and not the

11     cross-roads, the two circles that you just drew, those were areas where

12     -- or one or the other of those was actually fired at by Croatian forces

13     on the 4th or 5th of August.

14             Am I correct about that?

15        A.   Mr. Russo, I'm not talking about areas, because if we say areas

16     we're speaking about two targets or two instances of firing.  I'm --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters have lost part of the answer.

18     If the witness could be asked to repeat.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you put the question again to the witness,

20     Mr. Russo.  Perhaps take it one by one.  We see two markings, one more to

21     the north-east, which is a larger circle.  Perhaps you start with that

22     one.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, the circle that you placed near the cross-roads more

25     to the north-east in this photograph, can you tell us what that was meant

Page 16380

 1     to represent, and whether you can say if that area was fired at on the

 2     4th or 5th of August?

 3        A.   Your question, as far as I remember, and do correct me if I'm

 4     wrong, was:  Which other targets were fired upon in Knin, apart from the

 5     ones marked so far?

 6        Q.   That is correct.

 7        A.   To that question, when you showed me this slide, I replied that

 8     we fired on a target in the immediately vicinity of the Slavko Rodic

 9     barracks, or the northern camp, but take into consideration the quality

10     of this photograph and the surface area of the town, I need the exact

11     coordinates, X, Y, and Z, to determine the exact location.

12             So, therefore, I cannot say whether the cross-roads in question

13     is this one that is closer to the barracks, or the other in the -- in a

14     north-west direction from that part.  And that's why I drew these two

15     circles, conditionally.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, I'm looking at the clock.  We have to

17     finish for the day.  Usually ask whether it's a suitable moment, but it

18     is the moment.

19             MR. RUSSO:  If I could simply tender this, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections.

21             MR. KEHOE:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2336.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P2336 is admitted into evidence.

25             Could I have an update on your timing, Mr. Russo.

Page 16381

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President, I just wanted to tender the

 2     reconstruction that we have been going off of as well.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Sorry --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The document prepared.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  That's -- I believe it was on the 65 ter list.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections.  None of the other Defence

 8     teams.

 9             Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

10             The reconstruction is the -- perhaps you repeat, Mr. --

11             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, that's 65 ter 7055.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2337.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P2337 is admitted into evidence.

14             Mr. Russo, and update, and we can't loose much more time.

15             MR. RUSSO:  I believe I will need least all of tomorrow,

16     Your Honour, and possibly another session or two after that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's far more than you indicated.

18             MR. RUSSO:  I do understand that, Mr. President, and I apologise,

19     and I beg the court's indulgence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider the matter, but, first of

21     all, Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Misetic for the Gotovina Defence.

22             MR. KEHOE:  I'm not certain at that point, Mr. President.  Given

23     the 92 ter statement, it could be quite brief.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are a champion in giving answers, which I

25     do not give many.

Page 16382

 1             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  I wouldn't say that it is

 2     much more than, say, 45 minutes at this juncture.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that, but brief could be anything between one

 4     and ten hours in my experience.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  I understand.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but now it is clear it me.

 7             Ms. Higgins.

 8             MS. HIGGINS:  At present, no questions, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, as it stands for now, I will have

11     maybe one session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One session, approximately.  That is clear.

13             The Chamber will, as I said, explore whether we could find

14     additional time.  Unfortunately, we're unable to continue tomorrow in the

15     afternoon, that's for sure, because of agenda problems.  We'll consult

16     with the parties.  We ...

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  I'd like to make a correction to the record.  I

19     inadvertently skipped an exhibit number.  The map marked by the witness

20     should have been Exhibit P2335, which would make 65 ter number 7055

21     Exhibit P2336.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And a reference to map marked by the witness

23     might lead to some confusion today.  Therefore, it was the last map we've

24     seen with the two small circles marked on this map.

25             We adjourn for the day, but not, Mr. Rajcic, until after I have

Page 16383

 1     instructed you, as I did yesterday, not to speak with anyone about your

 2     testimony, whether given already, or still to be given, and we'd like to

 3     see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00 in this same courtroom, I.

 4             We adjourn until then.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of

 7                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.