Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18529

 1                           Monday, 15 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             I would like to go in private session for a short moment.

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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 18531

 1             I would like to address the representative of the Registry at the

 2     place of the videolink.

 3             First of all, can we check whether you can hear me, whether you

 4     can see me.

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] [Microphone not activated] I can

 6     confirm that I can hear you quite well.  Good morning, Your Honours.  I

 7     can only confirm that everything is set here.  I hope you hear me now.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your words because I had to

 9     change my plug in.

10             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] [Microphone not activated] Good

11     morning to all the Judges and to everyone in the courtroom.  Hopefully

12     everything is fine now.

13             We may proceed.  Can we bring in the witness?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do.  Let's check again that all the judges

15     do.  Could you please repeat your last sentence.

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We -- not completely yet.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could I first be informed about who is in the

20     room at this moment.

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] [Microphone not activated]... a

22     technician here.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we invite you to escort the witness into

24     the videolink room.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, before we do that, can I just bring

Page 18532

 1     one matter to the Chamber's attention while that is going on.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  This morning we asked Mr. Monkhouse if he would

 4     contact the Court officer down there to have the witness review his

 5     statement because we had not met with him prior to this.  So I just

 6     wanted to tell the Chamber we attempted to do that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber was informed about it, and I take

 8     it that you will -- give follow-up in the questioning of the witness.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.  Good morning, I start addressing you

11     as Witness 61 because the Chamber is not aware of any protective measures

12     sought by you.  Is that correct, Witness?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I haven't asked for them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vukasinovic, before you give testimony, the

15     Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

16     that will you speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

17     truth.  I can see that the Registrar has now handed out you to the text

18     of that solemn declaration.

19             May I invite you to stand and to make that solemn declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vukasinovic.  Please be seated.

23             Mr. Vukasinovic, you will first be examined by Mr. Kehoe, who is

24     counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

Page 18533

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           WITNESS:  DJURO VUKASINOVIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Kehoe:

 6        Q.   Sir, could you state your name for the record and spell your last

 7     name.

 8        A.   V-u-k-a-s-i-n-o-v-i-c; D-j-u-r-o.

 9        Q.   And, sir, is your date of birth 4 July, 1948?

10        A.   Yes, exactly.  In Benkovac, the Republic of Croatia.

11        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, did you -- do you recall meeting with members of

12     the Office of the Prosecutor on 3 April 2007?

13        A.   I recall it.  I don't recall the exact date, but it was about two

14     years ago.

15        Q.   Without knowing the exact date, do you recall signing a statement

16     that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor at that time?

17        A.   Of course I do.  I signed the statement that I handed over.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President --

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Kinis still has some technical problems, but

22     it's the balance between the different sources of sound.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, with the Court's permission, if we

Page 18534

 1     could pull up 65 ter 1D75 -- 1D75, yes.

 2             For the court officer in Belgrade, that would be tab O.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, do you recognise the document before you as the

 6     statement that you signed on 3 April 2007?

 7        A.   Yes, exactly.  That is my statement.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 9        A.   And the document that I see in front of me.

10        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, did you have a chance to review this statement

11     prior to beginning your testimony this morning?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Would you like to make any changes or clarifications to that

14     statement at this time?

15        A.   There is nothing I would like to change, and I stand by this

16     statement in full, the statement that I made to the investigator of the

17     OTP.  However, I do have some remarks in respect of the spelling.  Some

18     of the names have been misspelled.  But that is it not really very

19     relate.

20        Q.   Okay.  If at any point, Mr. Vukasinovic, you want to bring a

21     misspelling or some misunderstanding to our attention, please feel free

22     to do so.

23             Does the statement before you, Mr. Vukasinovic, accurately

24     reflect what you told the Office of the Prosecutor back on 3 April 2007?

25        A.   Completely, in full.

Page 18535

 1        Q.   And is the information that you provided in that statement true

 2     and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

 3        A.   They're completely true, as far as I could recall at the time,

 4     because from the events themselves to the time of my statement, some

 5     12 years had elapsed, and to the best of my recollection, this is the

 6     full truth.  And it's not only to the best of my recollection, but also

 7     on the basis of my personal experience and what I saw and heard myself.

 8        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, if I asked you questions regarding the same

 9     matters that are contained in your statement, if I asked those questions

10     again in court would your answers the same here today in court as those

11     you gave in your witness statement, back in April of 2007?

12        A.   Yes, they would, in essence, be identical.  Perhaps there would

13     be some minor discrepancies because of the time elapsed and the fact that

14     we forget, but the essence remains the same.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we would offer into

16     evidence 65 ter 1D75.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1499, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, with regard to the summary itself, I

22     haven't had the opportunity to meet with this witness.  I haven't

23     explained --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I explain to the witness.

25             Mr. Vukasinovic, Mr. Kehoe will now read a short summary of the

Page 18536

 1     statement you gave in 2007, which has now been admitted into evidence.

 2     That is to inform the public about the substance of your testimony, so

 3     you don't have to respond to any questions.  It's just that those who are

 4     watching these proceedings are aware of what approximately is found in

 5     your statement.

 6             So, therefore, if you would just listen for a while when

 7     Mr. Kehoe reads the summary.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             Mr. Djuro Vukasinovic was the deputy chief of the public security

11     station in Benkovac during Operation Storm.  On the morning of

12     4 August 1995, Mr. Vukasinovic was the acting commander of the Benkovac

13     police station.  Concerning the shelling of Benkovac on the morning of

14     4 August 1995, Mr. Vukasinovic notes that artillery shells were falling

15     on specific locations, identified in his statement, among them the

16     Benkovac military barracks.

17             Mr. Vukasinovic is also aware of the decision to evacuate the

18     civilian population of Benkovac in an orderly and organised manner during

19     the afternoon and evening of 4 August 1995.

20             That would be the summary, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.  You may please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, I'm going to ask you some clarification

24     questions concerning your statement which has been received in evidence.

25             And the first question I would like to ask you is directed to

Page 18537

 1     paragraph 4 of your statement in the last sentence where you note that

 2     you were acting commander of the police station in the absence of the

 3     chief of police.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I take it that the witness has a hard

 5     copy in front of him.  That's at least what I conclude from the body

 6     language.

 7             Mr. Vukasinovic, do you have a hard copy of your statement in

 8     front of you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:  For the record, Mr. President, the submission was

12     tab O that we gave to the Registry.

13        Q.   Staying with that sentence, Mr. Vukasinovic, who was the chief of

14     the police for the Benkovac station at that time?

15        A.   The chief of police, or, rather, it was the police -- the station

16     of public security, as part of the Knin SUP was Zoran Lakic.  Personally,

17     I was never appointed in writing to be his deputy.  However, because our

18     entire complement of -- our entire police force was in the area of

19     Bosansko Grahovo in the then Republika Srpska, I stayed behind with a

20     number of senior, older policemen and civilians who were involved in

21     general administrative matters.  In view of the fact that I was an

22     inspector, it was considered logical that I should be the leader at the

23     time as a Deputy Chief, but I never - and I would like to reiterate

24     this - I never received a written decision on my appointment as

25     Deputy Chief.

Page 18538

 1        Q.   Understood, sir.  Was Mr. -- was chief of police, Mr. Lakic, was

 2     he on -- up in the Dinara near Bosansko Grahovo with the rest of the

 3     police officers on the morning of the 4th?

 4        A.   Yes, he was.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Just for reference, Mr. President, that's in

 6     paragraph 6 of the statement.

 7        Q.   In paragraph 16, and we're moving ahead because the statement is

 8     in evidence, in paragraph 16 where you talk about later on, on the 4th of

 9     August, police officers from Benkovac who walked to Kistanje.

10             Did these police officers, Mr. Vukasinovic, did they tell you why

11     they left their positions on the Dinara and walked to Kistanje?

12        A.   Of course they did.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14        A.   They said that there was general chaos there.  They told me

15     firmly, they confirmed this, that there was general chaos in the -- in

16     the -- among the ranks of the army of the then Republic of Serbian

17     Krajina and that they had to leave their positions around

18     Bosansko Grahovo, so they walked from there to Kistanje, and that's over

19     a distance of some 30 kilometres.  And on my part, I sent from Benkovac

20     some means of transport so that they could be taken from Kistanje to

21     Benkovac.

22        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, if I could just stay with your answer, which

23     Mr. President is on line 10 -- excuse me, page 10, line 4.  When you talk

24     about "general chaos," could you explain this general chaos that you --

25     to which you were referring, regarding the army of the Republic of Serb

Page 18539

 1     Krajina?

 2        A.   Well, first of all, I did not say -- I did not use the term

 3     chaos.  I said disarray.  I cannot say anything more specifically because

 4     I was not there myself.  And I was warned before my testimony that I

 5     should only speak the truth.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the latter part of

 7     the witness's answer.

 8             THE WITNESS:  So I cannot testify as to what thinking was among

 9     the leaders in the area of Grahovo because I was not there myself.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just inquire whether there is still a portion

11     missing and what portion exactly it is.  I mean missing in translation.

12     Because the witness, after you invited him to repeat -- after the

13     interpreters told us that they had missed part of the answer, the witness

14     then continued.

15             Is there any portion missing?  Otherwise, Mr. Kehoe, perhaps you

16     read the whole of the answer and ask the witness whether that's the

17     complete answer.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, I would like to - pursuant to the President's

20     instructions - just reread your answer back and see if this accurately

21     reflects your testimony or if you would like to change your -- correct

22     anything.

23             I asked you on page 10, line 11, Mr. Vukasinovic, if I could just

24     stay with your answer which, Mr. President, is on line 10, excuse me,

25     page 10, line 4.

Page 18540

 1             "When you talk about general chaos, could you explain this

 2     general chaos that you -- to which you were referring, regarding the army

 3     of Republic of Serb Krajina?"

 4             "A.  First of all, I did not say -- I did not use the term chaos.

 5     I said disarray.  I cannot say anything more specific because I was not

 6     there myself.  And I was warned before my testimony that I should only

 7     speak the truth."

 8             In the interlineation, the interpreter did not hear the latter

 9     part of the witnesses answer.  And Mr. Vukasinovic you continue and say:

10             "So I cannot testify as to what thinking was among the leaders in

11     the area of Grahovo because I was not there myself."

12             Now, Mr. Vukasinovic, other than the comment by the interpreter,

13     is there anything in there that was either left out, incomplete, or you

14     would want to correct?

15        A.   This is basically the essence of what I said before.

16        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, in your conversations with the police officers

17     that came back, did they describe to you this disarray, and, if so, what

18     did they tell you?

19        A.   They didn't have that much time.  We didn't have that much time

20     to talk about it because they came late in the evening on that date, the

21     4th of August, and the people needed to rest, so I sent them to their

22     respective homes.  Some lived in the town itself, and most of them were

23     residing in the neighbouring villages.

24             I just wanted to send them home for them to rest and to take a

25     bath and prepare for the next day.  We did not talk in detail about the

Page 18541

 1     situation in Grahovo, and I could see that they, themselves, did not know

 2     much about it because they were - how shall I put it - secondary people

 3     in all these developments.  They were just mere policemen.

 4        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, I would like to address several other issues in

 5     your statement.  And the first one I would like to talk about is your

 6     description of artillery targets in the Benkovac area.

 7             Initially, I would just like to ask you: What was the distance

 8     from Benkovac to the confrontation line on the 4th of August, 1995?

 9        A.   There were several lines.  The first, if we look from the

10     direction of the east relative to Benkovac, was in the village of Priseg

11     where there practically was just one path, one ditch, rather, dividing

12     our positions and those of the Croatian army.

13             Going from the east to the west, a second line of separation was

14     in the village -- between the villages of Vrana and Miranje Donje and on

15     westwards up to Zemunik Gornji.

16             If you're asking me about the distance to the city of Benkovac,

17     if I understood you properly, I can also tell you that.

18        Q.   Please do.

19        A.   The first line which I mentioned is about 9 or 10 kilometres from

20     it.  The second one about 7 kilometres.  And the final one, some

21     18 kilometres, I believe.  I might be wrong, by a kilometre or two, but

22     that is of no consequence.

23        Q.   In your statement, sir, in paragraph 7 you mention, on the

24     morning of the 4th going to see a battalion of the 92nd Brigade, and,

25     again, in paragraph 17, you say you received information that the

Page 18542

 1     3rd Brigade had been told to evacuate.

 2             What army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina units were on the

 3     front line in the Benkovac area at that time?  And I'm talking about the

 4     4th of August.

 5        A.   Could you be so kind as to repeat your last question?  There was

 6     an interruption in the interpretation that I was receiving.

 7        Q.   I was referring in paragraph 7 and 17 to your mention of at least

 8     two units from the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina.  In paragraph 7

 9     you mentioned the 2nd Battalion of the 92nd Brigade, and in paragraph 17

10     you mentioned the 3rd brigade.  I take it that's the 3rd Infantry

11     Brigade.

12             My question for you Mr. Vukasinovic is at that time on the

13     morning of the 4th of August, what ARSK units were on the front lines in

14     the Benkovac area?

15        A.   This is generally known, our two brigades, one had the numerical

16     designation 92nd, and the other one 3rd.  These are -- 3rd Brigade.  The

17     3rd Brigade.  These are mixed infantry brigades.

18        Q.   Do you know, sir, where the 7th Mixed Artillery Regiment was

19     deployed?

20        A.   In the area of Benkovac, there was no such unit.  Maybe you are

21     referring to the 7th Corps headquartered in Knin which covered the entire

22     area, including our own area in Benkovac.  So it was not a regiment but a

23     corps.

24        Q.   Well, was part of that corps, the artillery part of that corps,

25     was that deployed in the Benkovac area?

Page 18543

 1        A.   I said that our brigades were mixed units so that they did

 2     include some artillery weapons of smaller calibres and some tank pieces.

 3     So there was no need for any special unit from the 7th Knin Corps to

 4     arrive in our area.  This is out of my recollection, these things that

 5     I'm saying, and I believe them to be true.

 6             And if I can add, the situation frequently changed; namely, I was

 7     not a member of those brigades.  I was a part of the police force, and

 8     possibly there could have been some units from the Knin area, but I

 9     wasn't aware of it.  I -- I don't know that that was the case.

10        Q.   Well, with regard to the 92nd Motorised Brigade and the 3rd

11     Infantry Brigade, where were the command posts for those units?

12        A.   The command post of the first one that you mentioned was in the

13     village of Biljane Gorjne, that is the so-called forward command post.

14     And the forward command post of the 2nd Brigade was in the village of

15     Sopot.

16        Q.   Now, as for the artillery that was attached to the 92nd Motorised

17     Brigade and the 3rd Infantry Brigade, where was that artillery deployed

18     in the Benkovac area?

19        A.   I cannot give you a precise decided answer to that question,

20     because I don't know.

21        Q.   Now, I'd like to turn our attention to that part of your

22     statement that discusses locations of artillery fire by the army -- the

23     Croatian army on the morning of the 4th.

24             MR. KEHOE:  And, Mr. President and Mr. Vukasinovic, I will be

25     talking about paragraphs 3, 5, 7, and 12, where the witness talks about

Page 18544

 1     these various locales.

 2        Q.   Now in your first paragraph, paragraph 3, you mention that you

 3     observed artillery fire around the petrol station.  How many petrol

 4     stations were there in Benkovac, Mr. Vukasinovic?

 5        A.   In Benkovac proper there was just one petrol station which was in

 6     the direction of Biograd, some 600 metres from the centre of town.

 7        Q.   Now, was this located at the cross-roads, 600 metres from the

 8     centre of town on the road towards Zadar, close to the railway?

 9        A.   That's right, at the cross-roads from which one road loads to

10     Zadar, another one to Biograd, and two towards the centre of the town.

11     It is some 400 metres from the railway station in the direction of the

12     west.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I would like to bring up a map which

14     is 1D72-2159.  And I ask you -- it's a blank map of Benkovac, and I ask

15     oral leave to add it to the 65 ter list.  It's just a blank map that I

16     have turned over previously.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Your request to add the blank map to the 65 ter list

19     is granted.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. KEHOE:  And for the record, Mr. President, it would be 65 ter

22     1D2723.

23        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, I just would like to show you a map of Benkovac,

24     and it should be tab 29.

25             MR. KEHOE:  If the court officer, Mr. President, could give the

Page 18545

 1     witness a blue marker so we can just briefly go through this.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be given a blue marker.

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, taking a look at this, the map that's before

 5     you, could you circle the cross-roads for the petrol station and mark

 6     that with the letter A?

 7        A.   I'm a little confused by the names of these streets, but this is

 8     it.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I understand the procedure is for the

10     court officer to hold it up so that Your Honours can see it at this

11     juncture.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the court officer hold up and have the camera

13     zoom in on where the marking was made.

14             Now let me just ...

15             MR. KEHOE:  It's over to the left just a little bit.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you apparently -- yes, it's the circle

17     and the letter A which now appears at the south-western part of town,

18     where we find cross-roads close to the railway line, which bends there,

19     from south-west to -- in south-easterly direction, or the other way

20     around.  Just whatever way you go.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I actually have two more.  Would you

22     like me to have them marked and then show them in toto.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if you first ask the witness to mark and

24     then we'll have a further look to the map.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

Page 18546

 1        Q.   Now likewise, Mr. Vukasinovic, in paragraph 3 you also mention

 2     the firemen's hall.  And before we ask you to mark that, Mr. Vukasinovic,

 3     were -- were there Territorial Defence offices located in the firemen's

 4     hall?

 5        A.   Not in the vicinity of, but they were stationed at the firemen's

 6     hall in the offices on the first floor.  They were civilian -- civilian

 7     defence.  There was the fire-fighting society.  And the information and

 8     alert centre to alert citizens in the event of an air-raid or generally

 9     speaking.  There were no military units at the firemen's hall.

10        Q.   Was the firemen's hall used as a locale where, when there was

11     order to mobilize troops, those troops met?  Did they meet at the

12     firemen's hall?

13        A.   There was no need.  If there was mobilisation, probably the men

14     would immediately go upon receiving the call to their respective units.

15     There was no need for any larger number of people to -- or men to

16     assemble there.

17        Q.   Well, on that map, Mr. Vukasinovic, could you circle the

18     firemen's hall and put the letter B next to that location.

19             That's okay.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22        Q.   Now, likewise, Mr. Vukasinovic, in your statement, again at

23     paragraph 3 you mention the Bagat factory?

24             Now, do you recall a building called the cool storage that was

25     located near the Bagat factory?

Page 18547

 1        A.   Of course I remember.  This is an industrial facility below the

 2     settlement itself to the east from the railway station.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 4        A.   It was the --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the -- this part

 6     of the witness's answer.  The last part.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat the last part of your

 8     answer.  You said it was an industrial facility below the settlement

 9     itself, to the east from the railway station.  And what did you say then?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said east from the railway

11     station, and then I said there was, in this industrial complex, a cool

12     storage unit as part of the trading enterprise Agroprodukt.  Further on

13     towards the east was a building of the Kepol factory.  And behind it

14     another one of the Bagat factory.  All these three buildings were some

15     300 metres distant from one another.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   Looking at the map in front of you, sir, can you circle the cool

18     storage facility and the Bagat factory.  Cool storage with the letter C;

19     and the Bagat factory with the letter D.

20        A.   I do not see all that well, or cannot see.  But I suppose that

21     this is it.  And this one here.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

23        A.   So it will be a C -- a C to mark the cool storage.  And the

24     Bagat factory with a D?

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 18548

 1        A.   And this building in between is Kepol, the chemical industry

 2     facility.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vukasinovic.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'd like to offer into

 5     evidence 65 ter 1D2723.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the marked map would be number?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1500, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D1500 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   If we can move to paragraph 5 of your statement, Mr. Vukasinovic,

13     and you talk about shelling in the area of Benkovacko Selo, and if we

14     could bring up D1446, page 6.  And for the purposes -- it's at tab 31,

15     for the Registrar, map 6.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I have no objection to the

17     Defence showing this particular map to the witness, because I believe

18     this is the map produced by the Defence, you know, based on a couple of

19     sources.  And, you know, it would amount to leading perhaps the witness

20     can be asked as to what he knows about the military positions present in

21     that area.  But showing this witness a map produced by the Defence with

22     certain markings would amount to leading the witness.  He would not be

23     able to say anything about this map.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

25             MR. KEHOE:  I think if I might respond, Mr. President.  I think

Page 18549

 1     that for clarity sake with regard to Benkovacko Selo, this area is

 2     depicted in the map.  I don't think that is a subject of dispute.  And I

 3     was going to ask him about a locale in that area that he mentions he sees

 4     a degree of shelling.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  There are quite a bit of markings on it.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.  If I could take -- the page 6 that I put up,

 7     Mr. President, does not have any markings other than the grid references.

 8     If I can --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I see red dots with numbers on it.  What is on my

10     screen now, perhaps it is not the map that you had in mind?

11             MR. KEHOE:  No, it's not, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Then let's get this one from our screens, and

13     if you would then -- I take it that there's a certain sequence.  Would be

14     an earlier one a later one?

15             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, that was the first one.  We were

18     looking at number 6.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Number 6 of this tab.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Of this sequence, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Of this sequence.

22             MR. KEHOE:  And that map has no targets on it.  None of the red

23     dots that we were talking about before.  I mean, it does have

24     Benkovacko Selo there.  But none of the targets that we looked at before.

25     It's just a map of roads and grid references.

Page 18550

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, you apparently have problems in

 2     finding a non-marked map.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, page 6 in e-court which is 1D69-0149

 4     has many red dots.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite the Gotovina Defence team perhaps to

 6     show it to Mr. Registrar so that ...

 7             MR. KEHOE:  That's it, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the one.

 9             Now, in order to avoid whatever confusion, is there consensus on

10     what the identity of this map is?

11             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, this is a -- the major arteries as you

12     can see in the Benkovac area.  The numbers reflected there are grid

13     reference numbers, and they are not target numbers.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I take it that there is no objection

15     against the roads being marked on the map.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Let's proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, you were --

21             MR. KEHOE:  If I might have one moment.

22        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, you have a map before you that depicts the

23     general location of Benkovacko Selo.  And how far was the -- was

24     Benkovacko Selo area from the police station in Benkovac?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Tab number, Mr. Registrar in ...

Page 18551

 1             MR. KEHOE:  It is tab number 31, map 6.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could it be shown on the camera before it's

 3     shown to the witness.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I believe that's the right one.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it seems that this is the same one as we have

 6     on our screen now.

 7             Perhaps on the left top -- yes, I see the markings.

 8             Yes, please proceed.

 9             The map may be shown to the witness.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, taking a look on this map, and you see depicted

12     in there is the general area of Benkovacko Selo.

13             And my question for you is:  How far was Benkovacko Selo area

14     from the police station?

15        A.   Benkovacko Selo itself is physically connected to the town of

16     Benkovac.  If you're asking me about the area which came under shelling,

17     the Ristici hamlet in the coniferous woods, that hamlet is some

18     700 metres distant as the crow flies from the police station in Benkovac,

19     and it is to the north of the police station in Benkovac.

20        Q.   Well, sir, was there was a cross-roads in the Benkovacko Selo

21     area?

22        A.   There is an asphalt road which leads to Obrovac near the pine

23     woods which I referred to.  There is a village road which turns left from

24     the road leading to Obrovac.  Then a bit farther on, there is another

25     offshoot branching off from that road to another hamlet, that is from the

Page 18552

 1     road leading to Obrovac.  There are no other road there, so there is not

 2     a classic cross-roads.  There is one -- one road leading to the right,

 3     and a few hundred metres later on, there is another one which turns left

 4     from the road leading to Obrovac.

 5        Q.   Well, with the use of a pen, Mr. Vukasinovic, could you circle

 6     that area that you were discussing of where these roads were and mark

 7     that with a letter A.

 8        A.   Well, I have to tell you that this is a very small map.  It will

 9     be very difficult to be precise in marking.  But I believe that it is

10     here.  But I must add, there was another road which turned left, before

11     the one which I described earlier.

12        Q.   Okay, sir.

13             Now, if we can move -- you mentioned some shelling in the pine

14     wood area of Ristici.  And I ask you, are you aware of a warehouse called

15     the Pladina [phoen] warehouse?

16        A.   This is the first time that I hear that name.  There was no

17     warehouse in that area, as far as I know.

18        Q.   Well, if we look at an area just north of the area that you

19     circled, was there a warehouse that the army of the Republic of Serb

20     Krajina used as a logistics base.

21        A.   Even before the war, during the war, and from what I hear, now as

22     well, is an area where fairs are held.  It's a fairground; in other

23     words, that's where all kinds of different things are sold.  And as part

24     of that compound there is an building that was a catering establishment,

25     a small cafe.  There was a small shop, and there was also an area where

Page 18553

 1     lamb would be turned on the spit.

 2             Let me also say this.  This area was used at one time for

 3     training of high school students in range shooting.  But this was a long

 4     time ago.

 5        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, could you, on the map before you, circle the

 6     area that is the forested area in Ristici, and circle that as B.

 7        A.   Approximately around the 77 number here.

 8        Q.   Now, looking at that location, sir, of B, and if you look to the

 9     right of the area that you circled as letter B, were you aware of any of

10     those warehouses or buildings to the right being used as a logistics base

11     for the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina?

12        A.   I was not aware of it.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we will offer this exhibit

14     into evidence and move on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Map marked with A and B, Ms. Mahindaratne.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1501.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D1051 is admitted into evidence.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   In paragraph 7 of your statement you mention, Mr. Vukasinovic, of

23     going up to see the 2nd Battalion of the 92nd Brigade and then going up

24     around Obrovac.  And in the third-to-last sentence you note:

25             "At around 8.20 we reached the intersection where you can go

Page 18554

 1     either Benkovac, Obrovac, or Knin.  The intersection was under severe

 2     attack and trees were on fire."

 3             Now, sir, was this in the intersection that was south of Obrovac?

 4        A.   If you allow me to say before that, that I did not go to

 5     Gornji Zemun to meet anyone, as it says here to meet the commander;

 6     rather, I took that road so that I could reach Obrovac because the

 7     Benkovac-Obrovac road via Karin, which would been the shorter way for

 8     Obrovac, was --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear what --

10             THE WITNESS:  -- under fire.  And in order to avoid this fire, I

11     went via Smilcic and then returned via Pridraga to Karin.

12             So to answer your question, yes, this is an intersection to the

13     south of Obrovac.  The northern road leads to Obrovac.  The left road

14     leads to Benkovac, and right road leads to Knin from the direction of

15     Benkovac, viewed from that direction.  This is the Krusevo village.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   And that was the area -- that was intersection that was under

18     severe attack; is that correct?

19        A.   Exactly as I've said it.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, on line 25 -- page 25, line 6, it says

21     the interpreter doesn't hear something.  I'm not quite certain if the --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I got the impression that it was then nevertheless

23     translated where the witness said.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, you are correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  They caught up.

Page 18555

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, how far was this intersection from the centre of

 4     Obrovac?

 5        A.   From the centre of Obrovac, there are two roads -- well, actually

 6     there are two roads leading from there to the centre of Obrovac.  The

 7     shorter way is about one and a half kilometres to the centre, and the

 8     farther, the roundabout way, is about 2 kilometres along.

 9             And let me just say this, this intersection is at a higher

10     elevation than Obrovac.  So in order to reach that intersection, you have

11     to go up the so-called Burovacka -- or down the Burovacka slopes, so that

12     viewed from this intersection, Obrovac is in a depression, to put it that

13     way.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vukasinovic.  I would like to take us to another

15     topic which is the evacuation from Benkovac on the 4th and later the 5th

16     of August of 1995.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, Your Honours, we'll be referring to

18     paragraphs 11, 14, 15, 17, and 18, where the witness discusses that.

19        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, turning our attention to the evacuation, were

20     you aware of plans to evacuate Benkovac and other towns that were --

21     these plans being in existence before Operation Storm was launched?

22        A.   No, I didn't know that.  But I should have known it, had such

23     plans existed.  I should have known it, because I was, in a way, in

24     charge of organizing traffic, traffic control, in situations such as

25     these.

Page 18556

 1             I heard of this plan on that day, in the afternoon, I think it

 2     would have been around 5.00 or 6.00 p.m., when I was informed by the then

 3     president of the municipality, Dr. Stevan Vuksa.

 4        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, I would like to show you a document.  And this

 5     would be tab 10 in the documents.  And this is D253.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Kehoe.

 7             Could I ask a clarification of the last answer.  You said you

 8     were informed by the then president of the municipality.  Informed about

 9     what exactly?

10        A.   I was informed that we should organise the displacement of the

11     civilian, the so-called non-combatants, to the area of Srb and Lika.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             If I can --

16        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, do you know if the civil defence had any plans

17     in place to evacuate the civilians from Benkovac, in the event of an

18     outbreak of hostilities?

19        A.   Of course I know of this.  These were plans that were drawn up as

20     part of the defence plan for the municipality.  These plans were drafted,

21     I believe, since 1974.  Up until the war, they would be drafted by each

22     organ separately, the civilian defence, the national defence.  And these

23     plans had to be drawn up for evacuation of the civilian population, not

24     only in the event of an outbreak of hostilities but also of major natural

25     disasters.

Page 18557

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Vukasinovic, did you participate in these plans and this

 2     planning that the area had established prior to Operation Storm?

 3        A.   If I may correct you, I did participate in them, but before the

 4     war.  Before 1991.  I participated because I was supposed to take care of

 5     traffic control in the event of evacuations, because, at the time I was

 6     in charge of preparing these plans, the general defence plan -- national

 7     defence plans within the SUP.  But this was before the war.

 8        Q.   And how about, sir, after the war, and during the war?  Did you

 9     continue to participate in some capacity and, if so, in what capacity?

10        A.   During the war, I did not; and after the war, of course, it goes

11     without saying, no.

12        Q.   Now, you were aware, sir, of the evacuation that took place that

13     you mentioned in your statement in the paragraphs that I've talked about,

14     11, 14, 17, and 18.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, before we continue, could I have a

16     further specification in terms of time of what is considered to be the

17     war?

18             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vukasinovic, when you were talking about the

20     war, does that cover the whole of the period 1991 up to and including

21     August 1995; or do you have a more limited concept of what you consider

22     to be wartime -- the war?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The period of war is, in my view,

24     the period between September 1991, when the then official army of the

25     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that was called Yugoslav

Page 18558

 1     People's Army took certain actions in the area of Benkovac municipality,

 2     up until the 5th of August, 1995, in the morning.  For me, that is the

 3     war period, wartime period; at least as far as the Benkovac municipality

 4     is concerned.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for this clarification.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Vukasinovic, in paragraph 14 of your statement, you note

 9     that:

10             "I returned to the municipal hall around 6.00 p.m., around ten

11     people were at the meeting and assignments were given to each person to

12     ensure that the evacuation was carried out in an orderly manner."

13             Now, when the evacuation was carried out, Mr. Vukasinovic, did

14     they do it pursuant to the plan that was in existence at that time?

15        A.   As far as I know, no, that was not the case, because panic set in

16     as a result of the shelling, and as a result of misinformation, and also

17     some news that caused unrest among the citizens.  But already around

18     4.00, people began to take things in their own hands, and on their own

19     initiative, used the vehicles they had at their disposal, cars, tractors,

20     whatever they had.  They started moving out from the town and pulling out

21     in the direction of north, north north-east without any actual order

22     being issued.  So if there was plan, an evacuation plan, it was not

23     actually necessary to implement it in practice because people had already

24     started doing it on their own from the town and from the villages to the

25     east, the south-east, and the south, and the south-west, and west of the

Page 18559

 1     town, as well as from Karin Gornji which is to the north of the town.  In

 2     other words, let me wrap up.  There was no need to implement any

 3     organised plan, if it existed, because panic had set in, and people

 4     started fleeing on their own initiative.

 5             On our part, we organised transportation by buses from the bus

 6     station, and we used the buses that we had at our disposal at the time.

 7     And also we used some trucks, some commercial trucks, owned by companies

 8     in Benkovac.

 9        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, in paragraph 16, the first two sentences it

10     notes:

11             "All the people in Benkovac were already panicked, so there was

12     no need to appoint anyone to go around and tell them that they were to

13     evacuate.  The organisation of the evacuation was communicated to

14     everyone by word of mouth.  After this meeting at 6.00 p.m., the

15     organised evacuation started.  However, even before, people had been

16     leaving on tractors and other vehicles they could obtain."

17             Are those sentences that I read for you, are they accurate, sir?

18        A.   Yes.  This is what I reiterated in my testimony, but I corrected

19     myself a bit in the sense that I said that there was no need to implement

20     any kind of organised plan because panic had set in and people started

21     fleeing of their own -- on their own.  And what I said, that there was

22     information being circulated around orally, that's true.  There was an

23     order to implement an evacuation and to leave the territory -- for the

24     civilian population to leave the territory of Benkovac and from the area

25     of Srb in Lika.

Page 18560

 1        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, when you --

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may, just to correct a --

 3     there's a correction.  It should read paragraph 15 and not 16.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  That's correct.  It should read 16.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. KEHOE:

 7        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, when you said that after this meeting at 6.00

 8     p.m., the organised evacuation started, what organised evacuation started

 9     after the meeting that you talked about in paragraph 15?

10        A.   I have just tried to explain this a moment ago.  I said that it

11     was not organised evacuation, because there was no need for that because

12     people in panic had already begun to leave the area, this area of

13     Benkovac municipality, using their own private vehicles.  And I also said

14     that we, if we can use the term, organised evacuation, for that purpose,

15     we provided buses and some trucks that we took from these companies.  So,

16     as far as I'm concerned that was the only thing that was organised in

17     this entire -- in this entire project of leaving this area.

18        Q.   Now, you also note in -- in your testimony at page 30, line 13,

19     you say that:

20             "... there was an information being circulated around orally,

21     that's true.  There was an order to implement an evacuation and to leave

22     the territory -- for the civilian population to leave the territory of

23     Benkovac and from the area of Srb in Lika."

24             Who gave this order to implement the evacuation?

25        A.   I was relayed this order by Mr. Vuksa Stevan, by telephone.  He

Page 18561

 1     was the president of the municipality.  And he said that he had received

 2     an order to evacuate the non-combatants, the non-combatant civilian

 3     population.  I don't know whom he had been ordered by; probably someone

 4     from higher level in Knin.

 5        Q.   And what time did you get this order, sir?

 6        A.   I left around - I can't exactly say what time it was - but I

 7     think it was probably around 5.30 or 6.00 p.m.

 8        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, prior to coming here, have you spoken to anyone

 9     about your testimony in this case, within the last month?

10        A.   Yes.  I discussed it with my family.

11        Q.   Do you know Mr. Savo Strbac?

12        A.   Absolutely.  I apologise, I omitted him.  I also consulted with

13     him because we are on friendly terms, and he is involved in matters that

14     relate to these trials here.  So I just wanted to hear his personal

15     opinion as to what my position should be and whether I had to exactly

16     agree to testify on behalf of the Defence; that was the basic thing I

17     wanted to learn from him, and he said that, yes, I had to do it.

18        Q.   And just reading what you said here concerning Mr. Strbac page

19     32, line 4, you said:  "I just wanted to hear his personal opinion as to

20     what my position should be ..."

21             So you talk to Mr. Strbac about what you should say in this

22     courtroom here today?  Is that accurate?

23        A.   No, that is not accurate.  And that is not what I said, if my

24     testimony of a minute ago was correctly transcribed or interpreted.

25             What I felt I could ask him was whether I needed to accept to

Page 18562

 1     testify on behalf of Defence, because I -- in view of the fact that I was

 2     a witness for the Prosecution, so that was a bit unusual, and I didn't

 3     know if there was a legal basis for this, that I could be called to

 4     testify here also by the Defence of Mr. Gotovina's, and in view of the

 5     fact that Savo Strbac is a lawyer, an attorney, he knew that this was

 6     legally possible, and he said that I had to accept to testify.  And that

 7     was the only subject matter of the conversation between him and me, and

 8     this conversation was conducted over the phone.  I called him at his home

 9     phone.

10        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, did you discuss with Mr. Strbac the issue of

11     whether there was an organised evacuation from Benkovac?

12        A.   No, absolutely not.

13        Q.   And when did you call Mr. Strbac?

14        A.   If you mean on this last occasion.

15        Q.   When you were talking to him prior to coming here today, did you

16     discuss the issue of the organised evacuation with him then, or did you

17     -- as a matter of fact, did you discuss it with him at any time?

18        A.   No, never.  There was no mention of evacuation in the

19     conversations that I had with Mr. Strbac.

20             I explained to you twice now already, what it was that I

21     discussed with Mr. Strbac, and if you'd like me to repeat it, I can.

22             You asked me when this was.  I think this was last Tuesday.

23     Because he was away on sick-leave or something.  He had some surgical

24     intervention, so I couldn't reach him before that day.  I only was able

25     to reach him on Tuesday, and this was my only contact with him since the

Page 18563

 1     moment that I received the information that I will be called to testify

 2     here.

 3        Q.   Let me address one last issue with you, and if I can refer to the

 4     brigades and military units that you had talked about.  In paragraph 7

 5     you talked about going and seeing a commander, or talking to a commander

 6     in the 92nd Brigade.  And in paragraph 17 you note:

 7             "At 11.00 p.m. a soldier arrived at the police station and told

 8     me that the 3rd Brigade had been told to evacuate."

 9             Mr. Vukasinovic, during the course of the 4th, were you aware or

10     did you know or learn that there was heavy fighting in the Benkovac area

11     between the Croatian army and the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina?

12        A.   As far as I knew in the area of Benkovac municipality, the only

13     fighting was in the area of Zemunik Gornji, and I mentioned this in one

14     of the paragraphs of my statement.  I said that members of the Croatian

15     army had taken up positions, had taken control, of some of those

16     positions called oris.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Goles, interpreter's correction.

18             THE WITNESS:  As for the fighting on the 4th of August, I had not

19     heard of them.  I did not hear of them.  I mean, infantry fighting.

20        Q.   Well, in the fighting that you learned of in Zemunik, that you

21     talk about or you refer to just in paragraph 7, that is where the

22     92nd Motorised Brigade was according to your testimony.  In that

23     particular area, did you learn that there was heavy fighting in that area

24     between the HV and the ARSK?

25        A.   I have already explained this.  I heard that there was fighting

Page 18564

 1     in the morning hours on the 4th of August and that the Croatian army had

 2     taken a position in the area of this village, the area that is called --

 3     the position that is called Goles.

 4        Q.   Now on this area that you are talking about, were you aware of

 5     the casualties that were suffered by the Croatian army in that area?

 6        A.   I absolutely have no information of that.

 7        Q.   Were you aware, sir, that the line being held by the 92nd Brigade

 8     did not break at any time during the 4th of August?

 9        A.   I didn't know that.  But let me reiterate, a portion of the area

10     of Zemunik Gornji was taken by the Croatian army.  This is the so-called

11     Goles area.  In other words, the Croatian army had broken through the

12     Defence lines in that area.

13        Q.   Well, staying with that, sir, you mention in paragraph 17 that

14     the 3rd Brigade was evacuating on the night of the 4th.  Were you aware

15     that the 92nd Motorised Brigade didn't withdraw until late morning on the

16     5th?

17        A.   As regards the 3rd Brigade, it was just by accident in talking

18     with a soldier that I found out that they had already left their

19     positions.  I got that information as I indicated here about 2300 hours

20     on the 4th of August.

21             As for the 92nd Brigade, the situation was such that certain

22     lines had been abandoned and some remained manned until the second day,

23     i.e., 5th of August, in the morning, for reasons of lack of information.

24     These were some forward positions towards the Croatian army, where,

25     simply speaking, word had not reached the men there to the effect that

Page 18565

 1     they should withdraw.

 2             The men did not know that because of the absence of

 3     communications means.  In one of the paragraphs I described how the

 4     communications system had been destroyed in the early morning hours on

 5     August the 4th.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, thank you very much.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

 9             We will have a break, but before having the break, I'd like to

10     hear from the first of the Cermak Defence and Markac Defence how much

11     time they would need for either examination or cross-examination.

12             MR. KAY:  We have no questions, Your Honour.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will have a couple of questions, Your Honour,

14     maybe 15 to 20 minutes at most.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Fifteen to twenty minutes.

16             Ms. Mahindaratne, could you tell us how much time you would need

17     for cross-examination.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very short, Mr. President.  Not more than 15

19     minutes; ten minutes at the most, I believe.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Then we will have a break, and we will resume at 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, are you ready to examine the witness?

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  Indeed, Your Honour, I am.

Page 18566

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vukasinovic, you will now be examined by

 2     Mr. Mikulicic.  Mr. Mikulicic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vukasinovic.  Can you hear me

 7     well?

 8        A.   Yes, I can hear you very well.

 9        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, at the time prior to the commencement of the

10     Operation Oluja, as you said, you informally discharge the function of

11     the deputy commander of the police station, which, at the time was called

12     the public security station in Obrovac.

13        A.   In Benkovac, in fact, I should like to correct you if you will

14     allow me.

15        Q.   A slip of the tongue.  I'm sorry, I meant Benkovac.

16             Can you tell us, what the role was in the armed forces of the

17     army of the -- in the armed forces of the Serbian Krajina of the police.

18        A.   Actually, we inherited this from the time of the Socialist

19     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, when the police was one of the defence

20     components of the Yugoslav People's Army.  That remained that way, also

21     at the time of the conflicts from 1991 to 1995.

22        Q.   In your statement, which you gave to the ICTY investigators, and

23     I refer to item 6, you stated that a large number of policemen were in

24     fact engaged at Mount Dinara, in defensive roles after the fall of

25     Bosansko Grahovo.

Page 18567

 1             Who was in command of those police units which were deployed on

 2     Mount Dinara at the defensive positions of the Republic of Serbian

 3     Krajina?

 4        A.   I suppose the military command of the area.  I, myself, was never

 5     there to be -- to have gained any experiences.  But I assume that it was

 6     the military command of some of the units of the 7th Knin Corps.  Members

 7     of the police were under the command of the army.

 8        Q.   Do you know what types of weapons were issued to the policemen in

 9     discharging those duties?

10        A.   I certainly do.  It was so-called personnel weaponry.  They were

11     rifles, whether automatic or semi-automatic, and pistols.  The police

12     units did not have any other armaments.  Yes, there were the machine-guns

13     which had the same power, firing power, as automatic rifles.

14        Q.   Where was this stored, the police armaments.

15        A.   It was within the police building in Benkovac.  But there were

16     few in the depot because they had been distributed to police members as

17     personal weapons so they had them with them, both in periods of rest and

18     in periods when they were in whatever way engaged at the front line.

19        Q.   All right.  A different topic now.

20             The question of the repeater at Celavac.  In your statement, you

21     say that Celavac is only -- was only some 3 kilometres distant, as the

22     crow flies, from Obrovac, where you found yourself in the morning on the

23     4th of August and that when you entered the police station, you heard

24     them say on the radio that NATO aircraft had attacked the repeater at

25     Celavac.

Page 18568

 1             Could you clarify for us this segment of your statement, please.

 2        A.   I shall do my best.

 3             I arrived in Obrovac with a lad who was a car mechanic in your

 4     unit, because, the day before, a car had broken down, an official vehicle

 5     had broken down.  When we arrived there, outside the police station in

 6     Obrovac, while actually entering the building, I heard via radio

 7     communications NATO aircraft are killing us off.  So I asked the

 8     policemen on duty - it's not an officer as you state in your statement,

 9     as you write in the statement, but just a policeman - what was happening,

10     and that is exactly what he said.  We are being shelled by NATO aircraft

11     at Celavac.

12             Now why Celavac?  Celavac is interesting for a number of reasons.

13     First of all, because it had a complete communications equipment.  Their

14     system of the Republic of Serbian Krajina located there.  So ordinary

15     radio communications, television communication, special radio

16     communications, special telephone communications, it was all there in

17     that location.

18             So I hope that I have answered your question.

19        Q.   Thank you for your reply.  And my last question, Mr. Vukasinovic,

20     in your statement you refer to civilian defence also.  Can you recall

21     within which ministry was the civilian defence located?

22        A.   Civilian defence is a component part of the Ministry of Defence.

23     It was so structured that the -- it was within the competent of the

24     secretariat of national defence which was its name before the war.  So

25     this was a component part of the Secretariat for National Defence of

Page 18569

 1     every municipality and so was the case in Obrovac as well, and I can

 2     expand further if are you interested.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

 5             Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to cross-examined the witness.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vukasinovic, you will now be cross-examined by

 8     Ms. Mahindaratne.  Ms. Mahindaratne is counsel for the Prosecution.

 9             You may proceed.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           Cross-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vukasinovic.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Your testimony was that you participated in drawing up evacuation

15     plans which was part of the defence plan of the municipality.  And those

16     plans were in existence since 1974.  And I'm referring to testimony at

17     page 27, line 15.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have D253, please,

19     and it's in the -- it's in tab 7 of the Prosecution binder.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21        Q.   Do you know the document -- do you have the Benkovac evacuation

22     plan in front of you, Mr. Vukasinovic?

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If it is not tab 7 perhaps --

24             THE WITNESS:  No.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  -- Mr. Registrar, could you try tab 1.

Page 18570

 1             I'm sorry, it's at tab 1.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It is the same as O for the Defence, from what I

 3     remember.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 6        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, are you familiar with this document?

 7        A.   Well, if I can take a closer look at it, perhaps I will find that

 8     I'm familiar with it.  Just give me a minute, please.

 9             I can tell you right away, no, I'm not familiar with this

10     document.  This was done by a service in charge of these matters and that

11     was the civilian defence staff of the municipality, of which I was not a

12     member.

13        Q.   Okay.  I just wanted to bring only one page to your attention.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if you could just turn to

15     page 2, and you have to follow the page 2 because the chart has not been

16     reproduced in the English translation.

17        Q.   Do you note the -- the evacuation routes that are noted on that

18     page?

19        A.   I can see them.  It is -- they are drawn in very clearly.

20        Q.   Now, isn't it correct that with the exception of the two

21     locations at the upper right-hand side of that chart, that is Kistanje

22     and Benkovacko Selo - I beg your pardon for my pronunciation - all the

23     other destinations, or the upper most limits of this complicated

24     evacuation plan, are within the Benkovac municipality?  Isn't that

25     correct?

Page 18571

 1        A.   That is correct.  But with your permission, I have to correct

 2     you.  The "B Selo" in the right -- right upper corner refers to

 3     Biovicino Selo and not to Benkovacko Selo.  That is the north of

 4     Kistanje.

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, I think that was my mispronunciation.  And that place

 6     is within the Obrovac municipality; is that correct?

 7        A.   All these places are in Benkovac municipality, expect for Knin

 8     and Biovicino Selo which are in Knin municipality.  All the other places

 9     drawn in this map, in this outline are in Benkovac municipality.  And

10     this other path is just a route indicator in case the need should arise

11     to leave the municipality, at least I assume that that is the case.

12        Q.   Now, you said that you were involved in drafting -- or sorry,

13     participated in drawing up the existing old evacuation plans.  Isn't it

14     correct that there was never a plan that was complicated to move the

15     population beyond the borders of the Krajina under the existing old

16     plans?

17        A.   Let me explain, with your permission.  All the plans, since they

18     started to be drawn up, including the evacuation plan, were made to be

19     implemented in the event of an attack by an external enemy.  So in the

20     period of the existence of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

21     defence plans were drawn up to be implemented in the event of an outside

22     aggression on the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

23             This plan was of a quite different nature, and it only shows

24     routes to leave places that might possibly come under an attack by a

25     hostile force, so these are routes for relocation to the, so to say,

Page 18572

 1     rugged part of the Benkovac municipality, which is called Bukovica which

 2     has more natural shelters enabling the population to take shelter there.

 3     And the assumption was that an external enemy would not actually arrive

 4     with any major military forces in the area, in the event of an attack.

 5        Q.   Thank you for that.

 6        A.   And there, then I named the actual villages.

 7        Q.   Thank you for that, Mr. Vukasinovic.  Now moving on I just want

 8     to take you to something you said in response to Mr. Kehoe, and that is

 9     at page -- page 30, line 13, for the record.

10             Now -- if you could just bear with me for a minute,

11     Mr. Vukasinovic.

12             In response to Mr. Kehoe you said:

13             "And what I said that there was information being circulated

14     around orally, that's true.  There was an order to implement an

15     evacuation and to leave the territory for the civilian population, to

16     leave the territory of Benkovac and from the area of Srb in Lika."

17             This is referring to 4th August.

18             Now, isn't it correct that -- the decision that was contemplated

19     on the 4th was to evacuate the population up to Srb, up to Donji Lapac

20     and Srb?  I just want to see if there is a misunderstanding here in using

21     the word "from," or did you mean to say "to Srb in Lika"?

22             Do you understand my question, Mr. Vukasinovic?

23        A.   I fully understand your question, and that is exactly what I said

24     "to Srb," not "from Srb."  So from the area of Benkovac, the thinking was

25     that the civilian population should be relocated to Srb, because it was

Page 18573

 1     assumed that they not be in endangered there.

 2        Q.   Thank you for that.  And just one last question on that,

 3     Mr. Vukasinovic.

 4             From what you understood at the meeting in the municipal council

 5     building when the -- when you discussed with the others about organizing

 6     evacuation of the population, did you understand that evacuation to be of

 7     a permanent nature, where the population were to be moved outside the

 8     territory of the Krajina on a permanent basis; or did you understand it

 9     to be of a temporary nature, where they were to be moved out of harm's

10     way, temporarily?

11        A.   When the action of the Croatian army started in the early morning

12     hours of the 4th of August, the assumption was based on previous cases

13     that the Croatian army would partially attack a part of our area.  That

14     is why the idea was that the non-combatants, the civilian population,

15     should be moved away from that area for a temporary period until the

16     action was over.

17             However, what happened was that the Croatian army's action was

18     comprehensive and final, and the population in question never returned

19     but only went on farther afield.  In implementing the decision that we

20     carried out, we actually thought that this would be a short-lived

21     exercise, that it would not involve the civilian population permanently

22     leaving the municipality area.  I hope that I have managed to answer your

23     question.

24        Q.   Just a few more questions, Mr. Vukasinovic, and I will be -- I'll

25     finish off.

Page 18574

 1             Now in a response to a question posed by Mr. Kehoe, on the -- on

 2     the presence of -- as to who occupied or who was present at the fire

 3     brigade premises, you responded as follows.  You said:  "There were no

 4     military units."  And this is at page 17, line number 10.

 5             Now were there any fighting forces at all at the firemen's hall,

 6     apart from organised units?  I'm using the word "fighting forces," combat

 7     forces.

 8        A.   Apart from members of the civilian defence, members of the fire

 9     brigade, and employees of the Secretariat of National Defence, and of the

10     department -- or, rather, the early warning centre, there were no other

11     units, especially not military units.  The only facility in the area of

12     the town of Benkovac, the town of Benkovac proper, was the army barracks.

13     That was the only facility of a military significance, and there were

14     none -- there was not -- no -- there were no others.

15        Q.   And when you use the term "army barracks," you're referring to

16     the Slobodan Macura Barracks.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, precisely.  That was the only one in the municipality area.

18        Q.   And today Mr. Kehoe discussed with you the cool storage and the

19     two factories, Bagat and Kepol.

20             Do you know what type of activity was being carried out in those

21     three places, what was being manufactured?  And I'm referring to the cool

22     storage and the two factories, Bagat and Kepol.

23        A.   If you are referring to some kind of a military activity, nothing

24     -- no such production was going on, nor did we have any capacity or

25     possibility for that.  Bagat was the branch unit of the Bagat factory in

Page 18575

 1     Zadar, was not fitted out nor for the production of any equipment or

 2     armaments, and there was no need for that is correct because the Benkovac

 3     factory was outfitted for that and had the necessary personnel.

 4             Production went on only in the cool storage, but that was food

 5     processing or foodstuffs necessary for the population.

 6        Q.   And what was going on at Kepol?  What was being manufactured at

 7     the Kepol factory?

 8        A.   Kepol was also a branch firm of the Zadar and Zagreb Kepol.

 9     Before the war they produced chemical products, such as the tape,

10     adhesive tapes, and that's it.

11             If you mean -- if you mean potentially that they could produce

12     some poisonous gases, that is absolutely out of the question.

13        Q.   Now, in your statement you have referred to -- you list -- you

14     note that you saw the petrol shed, the fire brigade, and the two

15     factories being shelled.

16             Isn't it correct that there were civilian structures in the

17     direct vicinity of those places?

18        A.   Absolutely.  That part of town is to the south-east of the

19     centre.  It's part of a settlement, a neighbourhood of private homes, and

20     in the immediate vicinity is also the railway station, and there were two

21     residential buildings there with some 20 or so apartments, where families

22     of people who worked for the railway were.  So, this was the civilian

23     population in their own private homes.  That was what these facilities

24     were.

25        Q.   And at paragraph 7 of your statement, and it was also dealt with

Page 18576

 1     earlier in direct examination, you testified that you saw the

 2     Benkovac-Obrovac-Knin intersection under severe artillery attack.

 3             Now, at the time you saw the intersection under attack, were

 4     there any ARSK members or units present at the intersection or in its

 5     direct vicinity?

 6        A.   No.  No, this was an intersection leading from Benkovac via

 7     Obrovac, to Knin.  It is in the area of Krusevo village which belongs to

 8     Obrovac municipality, and there were no facilities there, other than a

 9     private home of the Tomljenovic brothers who also had a bakery there.  In

10     other words, a plant for the production of bread.  So there were no other

11     facilities there.

12        Q.   I just have only two more questions, Mr. Vukasinovic.

13             Now, in paragraph 5 of your statement, you say that when you went

14     to the police station the shelling became more intense and that between

15     5.00 and 7.00 in the morning, approximately 100 shells would have landed.

16             Now, do you know, or were you aware as to where those shells

17     landed?  Did they land on civilian structures?

18        A.   That was my assessment, that that was the number of shells that

19     landed there.  As I described already, this started early in the morning

20     and throughout -- and it went on throughout the day.  As for the period

21     when I was away, I don't know, but these are the figures that I

22     mentioned.  So the areas also that I mentioned are the areas of these

23     three companies, the Bagat, the Kepol, and the cool storage, and then

24     further on, towards the petrol station, the barracks, and the police

25     station in Benkovac, and also in Benkovac village, the Ristic hamlet in

Page 18577

 1     the pine woods.  I need not mention the names.

 2             As -- during the period when I was there, as far as I can recall,

 3     two shells landed, one of them, as I described in my statement to the

 4     OTP, one of them landed on a little hut at the football pitch.  The hut

 5     is used for selling tickets, and the other one landed on the field itself

 6     where the -- in the area where the players who were not playing, who are

 7     sitting on the benches would be.

 8             In addition to this, there were also five or six shells that

 9     landed on the high school building which was in the immediate vicinity of

10     the football pitch.  And let me just say that the football field was next

11     to the building -- next to the police station building.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if perhaps the witness can take off

14     his earphones, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness take off his earphones for a

16     second.  But let's first ask the witness whether he understands any

17     English.

18             Mr. Vukasinovic, do you understand English?

19             Could you please take off your earphones for a second.

20             Mr. Misetic.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, page 47, line 17, the witness

22     prefaced that observation with a qualification, which I think is quite

23     relevant.  Can I tell you orally since the witness is not listening to

24     this.

25             The witness said:

Page 18578

 1             "I learned later," if that is of any value to you, "that five or

 2     six shells landed on ..." et cetera.

 3             So, in other words the witness qualified this by saying these

 4     were not his personal observations and perhaps if we could clarify that

 5     with the witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness --

 7             Ms. Mahindaratne, I take it that you will give that some follow

 8     up.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will do that, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness put on his earphones again.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

12        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, you testified that there were also five or six

13     shells that landed on the high school building which was in the immediate

14     vicinity of the football pitch.

15             Now, was that based on your own observations, or did you learn

16     about it through another source?

17        A.   If you listened carefully, I said that I learned of this later at

18     the time when I was not in Benkovac; in other words, in the period when I

19     was in Obrovac.  I did not personally see those shells landing there, nor

20     did I hear them.  Rather, later on, I was told of this by someone, that

21     the football pitch of the high school was hit and also the gym.  I didn't

22     have time -- at the time I didn't have time to go and check whether this

23     was true.

24        Q.   Now, you say that you learned of it when you were in Obrovac.

25     Did you learn of this particular shelling of the high school on the 4th

Page 18579

 1     itself?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   [Microphone not activated] When did you learn of it?

 4        A.   Well, at some point after I returned from Obrovac, let's say

 5     around noon or around 1.00 p.m.  I heard this from the police station

 6     employees.

 7        Q.   So you learned of it on the 4th August itself, that day itself.

 8     That's what you're saying.

 9        A.   Yes, yes, on the 4th of August.  That was when I was in Benkovac.

10     I was there the whole day.  I also went there on the 5th, but early in

11     the morning.

12        Q.   And when you went there on the 5th, did you observe any damage

13     that was consistent with this information?

14        A.   No.  I did not inspect this on the 5th, because, as early as 7.30

15     on the 5th, I left Benkovac, and during the night, I had some other

16     responsibilities that had to do with evacuating certain documents and

17     equipment from the police station.  So that I did not have time to go and

18     check those places that were mentioned, and as I said, I only heard of

19     this from the employees the police -- who were at the police station at

20     the time.

21             So all of this was happening while I was away from Benkovac, when

22     I was in Obrovac, on the 4th of August.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Vukasinovic, just one last question.

24             At paragraphs 10 and 11, you referred to returning to Benkovac at

25     10.30; that is, after going to Obrovac, and being present at the police

Page 18580

 1     station from that point onwards till 5.00 p.m.

 2             Now between 10.30 and approximately 5.00, are you able to say

 3     about how many shells would have landed in the area you were?

 4             Now you made an assessment of 100 shells falling between, up to

 5     7.00?

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  If there's a question on the table, that

 7     has been asked.  So if the witness could get the opportunity to answer

 8     it, as opposed to asked another question.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm not going to ask a question,

10     Mr. President.  I was just going to clarify my question in case there was

11     misunderstanding.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If Ms. Mahindaratne thinks that the question will be

13     clearer after she has further explained it, she is allowed to do so.

14             Please.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

16        Q.   Now you made an assessment saying between -- up to 7.00

17     approximately 100 shells would have landed.

18             Now my question to you is from 10.30 to 5.00, approximately how

19     many shells would have landed?  Can you make an assessment of that

20     nature?

21        A.   You asked me earlier, you mentioned in my immediate vicinity.

22     Well, during that period, two shells landed on the football pitch in my

23     immediate vicinity, and I have described this already.

24             Now in this period the Ristici hamlet and the barracks were under

25     fire and the facilities that I have already mentioned.  Between 10.30 or

Page 18581

 1     11.00 when I returned from Obrovac, up until 5.00 p.m., in my assessment,

 2     some 30 or 40 shells landed.  To be honest, I did not keep count of them,

 3     but approximately in my free estimate it would be around that number.

 4             As for the two shells that I described landing on the football

 5     pitch, they fell in my immediate vicinity.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vukasinovic.  I have no further questions for you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

 8             Mr. Kehoe, you would have further questions for the witness.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Often this is the moment when the Chamber questions

11     are --

12             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine, Judge.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have a question, but I would first want to

15     invite the witness to take his earphones off again.

16             Mr. Kehoe, whether or not I have a question for the witness

17     depends a bit on how to interpret one of the maps.  Of course, we haven't

18     got the markings here yet.  They will come at a later stage.  But you

19     showed the witness the map, you remember with the yellow roads on it, the

20     important roads.  I see the Ristici.  Could we have that on the screen

21     again.

22             MR. KEHOE:  That's D1501.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact, I --

24             Yes.  There it is, although still unmarked.  I think the witness

25     said that where the shells in the pine wood fell was at 77,

Page 18582

 1     approximately, which is just above Benkovacko Selo, and you asked him the

 2     distance from the police station to that place.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  I did.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you didn't ask him to tell us where the police

 5     station was but, I take it, from D248 which is the map indicated on it

 6     all kind of facilities, I would say it would be very close to what we see

 7     on this map as being depicted as 76.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Approximately, correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's -- could be a -- 50 metres off that,

10     but that's -- I would think it was a little bit further down from the 6

11     in westerly direction.  But that's -- that's minimal.

12             Now, if we look at the scale of this map, could we move the map

13     so that we can see the scale and ... I see a scale which apparently is

14     related to miles.

15             Now, first of all, Mr. Kehoe, this 1573 metres, where do you

16     start in reading this scale?  To the left part of it, the -- where it's

17     just above the DA of Datumi Slika or the next bus-stop, I would say,

18     which is just above, between the 0 and the S for Srpanj?

19             What is the 1573?

20             MR. KEHOE:  I'm speculating at this point without full knowledge.

21     I understand now it is the entire span from left to right.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if you look at that, approximately at

23     that scale, 1573 metres, if I try to figure out what the distance between

24     76, to take it as a rough estimate, and 77 would be, that would not be

25     anywhere near to 700 metres, as the crow flies.  I must tell you that I

Page 18583

 1     have --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- problems in accepting that your interpretation of

 4     the scale is the right one.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Between 76 and 77 is 1 kilometre.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I would.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  That's the grid.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we zoom out a tiny little bit then we -- yes.

 9     And -- but, therefore, if I look at this scale and, of course, we can

10     measure that.  If we now not change the scale anymore, that would be very

11     helpful.

12             If your interpretation would be right, it would be 2 kilometres.

13     So I am wondering whether your interpretation of the scale is the correct

14     one.  I'm inclined to believe that it is the smaller portion -- or

15     the ...

16             MR. KEHOE:  In these maps, Mr. President, the way they're laid

17     out, the grid reference from the 76 to the 77 is a kilometre.  If we go

18     from the grid that's on the bottom - and I'm just eyeballing it at this

19     point - it appears to be approximately the same.  And we can -- we can

20     actually go back and give you a map of the distance between the two.  But

21     we were giving a rough approximation with the witness without holding him

22     to a specific locale.  But these are maps obviously taken off

23     Google Earth, and the distances between these two, I assume, are pretty

24     well established.  We can certainly go back and check this distance,

25     Mr. President, and come up with a more accurate distance.

Page 18584

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, I'm not unfamiliar with Google Earth or

 2     Google Maps, Mr. Kehoe.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And because as we see on this map, the distance as

 5     the crow flies would be -- if that is 1573 metres, then it would -- if

 6     the scale is correct, then it would not be as the crow flies anything

 7     near 700 metres; it would be far more.  It would be up to one and a half

 8     kilometre, if not more.  Because if you put the scale of 1573 metres as

 9     just explained by you over there, then I would be more inclined to

10     believe that perhaps the full scale, not from the first to the third

11     bus-stop, but up to and including the fifth bus-stop would 1573 metres

12     be.

13             Is that --

14             MR. KEHOE:  I think you're absolutely right, Judge.  I think the

15     whole scale is 1500 plus metres.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, not to halfway -- I'd say 1573.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That has been clarified.  I think that I have got no

19     further questions then for the witness.

20             It just appears in the middle and whether that covers up till

21     there or the whole of it is not entirely clear.  But I have no further

22     questions for the witness in relation to the -- still his -- it would be

23     a kilometre rather than 700 metres.

24             MR. KEHOE:  I think that's correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 18585

 1             Ms. Mahindaratne, having followed my exchange of views with

 2     Mr. Kehoe, would you agree?

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I think it is it of no need to ask the

 5     witness further specifications, whether it was 700 metres or 1.000

 6     metres, or that's all within the normal limit of -- of error.

 7             The witness can put on his earphones again.

 8             Mr. Kehoe, do you have any further questions for the witness?

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Just very briefly, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Some more questions will be put to you, Mr. Vukasinovic, by

12     Mr. Kehoe.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

14        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic on page 45, line 11 and 12, you noted that the

15     Benkovac factory was -- I'll read to you exactly what you said:

16             "Bagat was not the branch unit of the Bagat factory in Zadar --

17     was the branch unit of the Bagat factory in Zadar, was not fitted out nor

18     for the production of any equipment or armaments.  And there was no need

19     for that" --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you're reading.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Sorry.

22        Q.   "There was no need for that because the Benkovac factory was

23     outfitted for that and had the necessary personnel."

24             Now, the Benkovac factory was outfitted for what, sir?  For

25     making equipment and armaments?

Page 18586

 1        A.   It does not refer to the factory but to the barracks.  I said

 2     that the barracks was outfitted for repairs of armaments and that they

 3     had the personnel for that, not for the production but for the repairs of

 4     armaments.  So let me repeat:  I was referring to the barracks, not the

 5     Bagat factory.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you for that clarification.

 7             Now, with regard to some of the evacuation questions asked by

 8     Ms. Mahindaratne, let me show you D932.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  And, Mr. Registrar, that's at tab 17.

10        Q.   Now, this is a document, Mr. Vukasinovic, which notes fuel

11     deliveries in the Benkovac area for the evacuation of civilians, dated

12     30 March 1995 and reflects the delivery of 1400 litres.

13             Were aware that this was part of the evacuation plan to deliver

14     fuel to these various villages so that they could evacuate, if need be?

15        A.   No, I was not aware of this.

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

17        A.   Even if I did participate in drafting plans such as these, that

18     would renature only to traffic control; in other words, to ensure that

19     there was a normal flow of people and vehicles, and I didn't know

20     anything about fuel.

21        Q.   Well, let me show you another document from the Ministry of the

22     Interior for the Republic of Serbian Krajina, D253.  And as a preface to

23     route -- and that's at, if I may, tab 11, Mr. Registrar.

24             As a preface to this, in response to some questions by

25     Ms. Mahindaratne, you noted that the evacuation was not meant to be

Page 18587

 1     permanent but just temporary.

 2             I show you this document, and if you could take a look at this

 3     document that's in front of you, it reflects the evacuation -- well, says

 4     -- let me read it very briefly, just the preface:

 5             "Due to the declaration of a state of war in the territory of the

 6     Republic of Serbian Krajina" -- I'm sorry, it's D254.  I'm sorry if I --

 7     did I say D253?

 8             MR. KEHOE:  It's D254; my apologies.  But it's still tab 11,

 9     Mr. Registrar, in your -- Mr. Mr. Vukasinovic's book.

10        Q.   This is dated 31 July 1995.  It says:

11             "Due to the declaration of a state of war in the territory of the

12     Republic of Serbian Krajina and the uncertain ... political situation,

13     and drawing on experience of Western Slavonia, order, all secretariats of

14     the interior are to prepare within their organisational units for the

15     rapid evacuation of the following archives and day-to-day documentation."

16     Enlisted in the first item, birth certificates, weapons registries,

17     vehicle files.  In 2, personnel -- employee personnel documents, records

18     of the -- of the dead and wounded.  And it's -- you can review this

19     document.  It goes into any number of specific items that call to be

20     evacuated, and it's signed by Toso Pajic.

21             Now, you know Mr. Pajic, don't you?

22        A.   Not personally, no.  Only by name.

23        Q.   You know who he is, don't you?

24        A.   He was one of the chiefs, as indicated by his signature, the

25     heading says the office of the minister.  So he was something in the

Page 18588

 1     office of the minister of the interior.  But what he -- I did not know

 2     him personally, no.

 3        Q.   Well, Mr. Vukasinovic, did you see this order after it was issued

 4     on the 31st of July, 1995, calling for the evacuation of all of this

 5     documentation?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- could we have a look at the top of this

 7     document before --

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  I misspoke on the

 9     document, so it is D254.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, no, I'd rather go to the first page

11     again.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             You described the order as an order to evacuate these documents,

15     whereas the beginning of the document says that one should be prepared

16     for it.  And at the end of it, it says who decides whether or not to

17     evacuate these documents.

18             So I --

19             MR. KEHOE:  I stand corrected, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- have I doubts as to whether this is a proper --

21             MR. KEHOE:  You're absolutely right, Mr. President.  Let me

22     clarify this.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, and put the question in such a way

24     to the witness that it is reflecting accurately the order.

25             Please do so.

Page 18589

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, my question to you with regard to these

 3     documents was not precise enough, and that was my fault.  I ask you, were

 4     you aware of this order by Mr. Pajic that was written on the 31st of

 5     July, calling for the preparation to evacuate these documents?  Were you

 6     aware of this?

 7        A.   This is the first time I see this order, so I was not aware of

 8     the existence of such an order.  And apart from that, that was not within

 9     my line of duty in my -- at my post in the police station at Benkovac.  I

10     suppose that it existed at the time as it addressed as it was to all the

11     secretariats and the organisation of units.  But, as for me, this is the

12     first time that I see it.

13        Q.   On that same score, if I could just ask you about one other

14     document which was dated the 2nd of August, and this will be at tab 20.

15             MR. KEHOE:  And, Mr. President, this is it at D938.  D938.

16     Again, this is an another preparatory document, Mr. President, not the

17     actual evacuation.

18        Q.   Now, if you can take a look at this document, again tab 20 in the

19     book, this is a document from the 2nd of August, again, calling for the

20     preparation of the evacuation, preparations for evacuation of material,

21     cultural, and other assets.  And this comes from the -- the republican

22     civilian protection staff of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

23             Were you aware of this document, sir?

24        A.   No, I was not aware of this document.

25        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, you noted during your direct examination and

Page 18590

 1     both in cross that there was no need to issue an evacuation order --

 2     there was no need to issue the evacuation order because people were in

 3     panic.  That is in the substance of your testimony.  Do you recall that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do, I recall that.

 5        Q.   If there was no need to issue the evacuation order,

 6     Mr. Vukasinovic, why was the order actually issued?

 7        A.   The order was issued at a certain time of the day; I believe it

 8     was between 1730 and 1800 hours, but the people had started fleeing much

 9     before that, because the assumption was that the Croatian army was

10     advancing on all the parts of the front.  Apart from that, shells kept

11     falling on the area of the town of Benkovac, so that the people started

12     fleeing prior to the formal issuance of an evacuation order.  And when

13     the people started to flee, everything -- everybody had left by the late

14     evening hours.  Benkovac was totally deserted by that time, by early

15     evening.

16        Q.   Mr. Vukasinovic, thank you very much.

17             MR. KEHOE:  I have no further questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vukasinovic, this concludes your testimony in

21     this court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming to the

22     video-conference room and for giving your testimony, answering the

23     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

24     wish you a safe trip home again.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My gratitude to you.

Page 18591

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  This concludes our videolink.

 2                           [The witness' testimony via videolink concluded]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me deal with a few procedural matters before we

 4     adjourn for the day.

 5             Is the next witness -- is the next witness available already

 6     or ...

 7             MR. KEHOE:  No, Mr. President.  It -- he will be here tomorrow.

 8     It's a prescheduled time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  He will be here tomorrow, then we will use our

10     remaining time for some procedural matters.

11             First of all, there was an application still pending for a

12     subpoena for the witness, I think, who just testified.  The witness now

13     testified through videolink.  May I take it that this application has

14     become moot or is withdrawn?

15             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  It is beyond moot.  There

16     is no need for the subpoena.  I'm sorry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's now on the record that that application

18     has been withdrawn.

19             I move on to another matter, which always also comes perhaps a

20     bit late.  The text was ready last week, but we didn't find time to read

21     it, and I didn't want to re-call the parties just for this purpose.  But

22     the Chamber still owes you the reasons for its decision to hear witness,

23     then still called AG-61, Mr. Vukasinovic, via conference.

24             These are the Chamber's reasons for its decision granting the

25     Gotovina's Defence's motion for Witness Vukasinovic to testify via

Page 18592

 1     video-conference link.

 2             On the 15th of May, 2009, the Gotovina Defence applied for the

 3     issuance of a subpoena directing witnesses Vukasinovic to appear before

 4     the Chamber on 10th of June, 2009.  I add to this that, at that time he

 5     was still referred to as Witness AG-61.  In its application the

 6     Gotovina Defence stated that the witness refused to appear voluntarily

 7     but also mentioned that the witness had indicated a willingness to

 8     testify via video-conference link.  On the 3rd of June the

 9     Gotovina Defence expressed its intention to file a separate motion for --

10     for this witness to testify by video-conference link, and the Prosecution

11     announced that it had no objections.  See transcript pages 17973, 974,

12     and 18049.

13             The Gotovina Defence subsequently filed the motion on the 4th of

14     June.  And on the 5th of June, the Prosecution, the Cermak Defence, and

15     the Markac Defence made no objections to the motion.  On the same day,

16     the Chamber delivered its decision to grant this motion and place the

17     Gotovina Defence request for a subpoena on hold.  I refer you to

18     transcript pages 18201 and 18202.

19             According to Rule 81 bis of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and

20     Evidence, a Chamber may order that proceedings be conducted by way of

21     video-conference link if it is consistent with the interests of justice.

22     This standard is met only if, first, the witness is unable or has good

23     reasons to be unwilling to come to the seat of the Tribunal; second, the

24     witness's testimony is sufficiently important to make it unfair to the

25     requesting party to proceed without it; and, third, the accused are not

Page 18593

 1     prejudiced in the exercise of their rights to confront the witness.

 2             Applying this standard, the Chamber first accepted that

 3     Witness Vukasinovic is physically unable to travel to The Hague to

 4     testify before the Tribunal.  The Chamber took into consideration the

 5     fact that the witness has serious health problems.  The Gotovina Defence

 6     submitted that the witness informed the victims and witness section that

 7     he suffers from angina pectoris, asthma, and a blood vessel obstruction

 8     and is awaiting to receive by-pass surgery in October or November 2009.

 9             The Chamber was informed by the Gotovina Defence on two separate

10     occasions that confirming medical reports have been sought from the

11     witness and will be provided shortly.  I'm giving the reasons for the

12     decision as it was given at the time.  I refer you to transcript pages

13     17905 and 17973.

14             Due to the urgency of the matter and the fact that none of the

15     parties opposed the motion, the Chamber proceeded in making its decision

16     without these reports.  Ultimately, should the medical reports not

17     corroborate the health conditions that Witness Vukasinovic claims to

18     suffer, the parties may ask the Chamber to reconsider its decision.

19             Second, having been apprised of the substance of the witness's

20     anticipated testimony, the Chamber was also satisfied that the testimony

21     of Witness Vukasinovic is sufficiently important.  The Chamber deemed the

22     importance of this testimony such that it would be unfair to require the

23     Gotovina Defence to proceed without it.

24             Finally, the Chamber found that neither the other accused, nor

25     the Prosecution would be prejudiced in the exercise of their right to

Page 18594

 1     confront Witness Vukasinovic, if the witness were to appear via

 2     video-conference link.  These parties, none of whom objected to the

 3     motion, will all be provided the opportunity to cross-examine the

 4     witness.

 5             And for these reasons and pursuant to Rule 81 bis, the Chamber

 6     granted the motion for Witness, then still referred to as Witness AG-61,

 7     to present evidence via conference link.

 8             And this concludes the Chamber's reasons on this decision.

 9             I would like to deliver a brief statement by the Chamber on

10     scheduling.

11             It's a statement on the further scheduling of court time in this

12     case, for the time up to the summer recess.

13             The Chamber already informed the parties at the Pre-Defence

14     Conference on the 27th of May, 2009, that the courtroom schedule in this

15     case might need to be adapted due to the fact that two Judges on this

16     Bench are also sitting on the case against Jovica Stanisic and

17     Franko Simatovic.  For the time being, the parties should continue to

18     plan with five sessions per week; however, depending on the developments

19     in the Stanisic and Simatovic case, this might be decreased to four

20     sessions a week.  Having said that, should such a reduction become

21     necessary, the Chamber has already identified four days which potentially

22     may be dropped from the courtroom schedule in this case.  These days are:

23     Monday, the 29th of June; Monday, the 6th of July; Thursday, the 16th of

24     July; and Monday, the 20th of July.

25             The Chamber will endeavour to give a more definitive decision on

Page 18595

 1     the scheduling matter as soon as circumstances allow for it.

 2             This concludes the Chamber's statement in this respect.

 3             I add to this, Mr. Kehoe, that you have informed the Chamber that

 4     due to other matters you have to attend, that you would prefer, if to the

 5     extent possible, not to sit on the 10th of July and the 17th of July.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Either.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber received this information and has

 8     considered whether, already at this time, and, of course, this is all

 9     very much provisional, whether it could meet your request, and that

10     certainly is not possible in relation to the 10th of July.  Whether there

11     still would be a possibility not to sit on Friday, the 17th, rather than

12     on, Thursday, the 16th, is very uncertain.  Chances are small, but we

13     will nevertheless further explore whether Thursday, the 16th of

14     July could still be exchanged for Friday, the 17th.  But as matters stand

15     now, it is still the 16th of July.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We have not ignored what you asked us, but just for

18     your information.

19             MR. KEHOE:  May I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And I take that it if you are not present in court,

21     that Mr. Misetic would be there anyhow.  But I take it that it is because

22     of witnesses, perhaps, that you would prefer to be present.

23             MR. KEHOE:  On a personal level, he can't live without me, Judge.

24     Just kidding.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Some people can't live without, and at the same

Page 18596

 1     time, not with the same.  I don't know whether that is your situation.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  I'm kidding.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, you were kidding.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Just on one separate note on scheduling.  I noted

 5     from the order of the Chamber concerning the hearing on the 26th of June,

 6     Your Honour had scheduled a Rule 54 hearing, I believe.  And on that date

 7     I trust that we don't have to have a witness present at that time.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider that.  It depends, of course, on how

 9     much time that hearing would go take.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And it might not take the whole of the day.  But --

12     so, therefore, we will consider --

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- how much time it would take.  If the parties

15     would be able to assist the Chamber.  It is not our intention to repeat

16     all of the submissions, but the Chamber would have some questions,

17     perhaps, which it would seek an answer to and that -- but we'll consider

18     how much time that will take and then informally tell you whether we

19     would expect other -- to hear other testimony that day.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then having dealt with that matter, there are a few

22     decisions to be delivered.  That is -- the first is in relation to two

23     audio clips that were used by the Gotovina Defence.  It's 1D33-0081 and

24     1D33-0082.

25             The Gotovina Defence used these two audio clips during the

Page 18597

 1     testimony of Mr. Galbraith.  The Chamber, at that time, delayed tendering

 2     a decision on admission until the Prosecution had reviewed those clips.

 3     You find that at transcript page 5065.

 4             On the 9th of June, 2009, the Prosecution informed the Chamber

 5     that it had no objection to admission.  That's found on transcript

 6     page 18381.  The Registrar is invited to assign exhibit numbers to the

 7     two audio clips.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D33-0081 becomes Exhibit D1502.

 9     And 1D33-0082 becomes Exhibit D1503.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D1502 and D1503 are admitted into evidence.

11             I move to the next item, which is about a video-clip known under

12     the exhibit number D1451.

13             It is a video-clip of Mr. Tudjman speaking on the 26th of August.

14     The exhibit was tendered from the bar table during the Prosecution's case

15     in March 2009.  You will find that at transcript page 17096.  It was

16     marked at the time but not admitted during the housekeeping session on

17     the 5th of March.  The Gotovina Defence sought admission into evidence

18     again on 8th of June of this year, and the Prosecution did not object to

19     it.

20             For those reasons, D1455 is admitted into evidence.

21             Next one is D1497.  It is a satellite picture on which Witness --

22     yes.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I apologise.  I -- on line 12 of page

24     67, you said D1455 is in evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, I should have said then 451 because that was --

Page 18598

 1     that was what I was talking about.  Yes.  I apologise for the mistake.

 2             So we are now back at 1497, the satellite picture on which

 3     Witness AG-58 marked his route into downtown Knin.  The exhibit was

 4     tendered during the witness's testimony on the 10th of June, but the

 5     Chamber forgot to state on the record that the exhibit was admitted into

 6     evidence.  Hereby it is put on the record that D1497 is admitted into

 7     evidence.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I would then just want to -- if I may, Mr. President,

 9     I think that's under seal because --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's under seal.  Thank you for reminding me.

11             D1497 is admitted, under seal.

12             I would like to move briefly into private session.

13                           [Private session]

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11 Pages 18599-18601 redacted. Private session.















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10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.39 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of June,

12                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.