Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19091

 1                           Tuesday, 23 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             I apologise for the late start of this morning; not the Chamber,

12     but me, myself.

13             If the witness is escorted into the courtroom, Mr. Misetic, you

14     have an opportunity to further re-examine the witness.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17                           WITNESS:  MILE MRKSIC [Resumed]

18                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Mrksic.  Please be seated.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic, I would like to remind you that you are

23     still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

24     your testimony.

25             Mr. Misetic will now continue his re-examination.

Page 19092

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Misetic:  [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, General.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   You recall yesterday we left off discussing General Kovacevic

 6     being in Knin on the evening of the 4th of August, and you said that the

 7     document that I had shown you refreshed your recollection, that he, in

 8     fact, was in Knin on the evening of the 4th.

 9             Now, could you tell us, first of all, who Mr. Radic was in the

10     7th Krajina Corps Command?

11        A.   Mr. Radic was Chief of Staff.

12        Q.   Yes.  Do you know where Mr. Radic was on the morning of the 4th

13     of August?

14        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't able to know the whereabouts of the

15     people in the corps.  It was only where a commander would call me, then

16     he would tell me where he was.  As for members of his command, I wouldn't

17     know where they were at that point.

18        Q.   Well, I believe you testified earlier on direct examination that

19     you wouldn't put the entire command in one location; is that correct?

20     When you were talking about breaking up the command into separate rear

21     command, forward command, main command, that there was a reason why you

22     wouldn't put the entire command in one location, can you tell us again

23     why that is?

24        A.   It was a general principle in order to make sure that the whole

25     of the command would not perish in a single strike.  One could have

Page 19093

 1     thought to have elements of the command parish, but if you had nuclear

 2     weapons in use or precision artillery weapons, it was not acceptable.

 3     Therefore, one had to have a forward command post as well.

 4             You asked me about where he, himself, was.  I don't know that,

 5     not at that point.

 6        Q.   General, at the transcript page 19054, lines 11 to 12, under

 7     Mr. Russo's questioning, you were asked about communications, and you

 8     said:

 9             "I can see that our communications were easily recorded and

10     transcripts were made."

11             Do you recall saying that yesterday?

12        A.   I said that yesterday, when I saw that you had -- that it was a

13     plan of the Supreme Command of the Croatian Army and the

14     Intelligence Service, that it was a plan.  Until I saw it yesterday, I

15     didn't know that it was a plan.

16        Q.   Let me show you one of those easily-recorded communications, a

17     transcript.

18             Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit D1257, please.

19             Mr. President, with your leave, I'd like to read it to the

20     witness in B/C/S.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

22             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 2 in the English and page 2

23     in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   This is now Croatian Intelligence intercepts of telephone

25     conversation on the 4th of August, and I'd like to turn your attention,

Page 19094

 1     on page 2, to a conversation that took place at 7.00 a.m. on the morning

 2     of the 4th of August, 1995, right in the middle of that page, right where

 3     it says:

 4             "We quote the order by General Kovacevic (he is in Knin) to

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Radic, (commander of the BG Dinara)."

 6             Let me read it to you in the original:

 7             [Interpretation] "Radic, you can only come back dead.  You must

 8     not come if you leave your position.  Here is trouble.  They have hit the

 9     barracks, too, probably the Slavko Rodic Barracks in Knin.  They are

10     pounding everything, and you fuck yourself.  Hold on to it however you

11     can.  You do not have another country but the Greater Serbia, and you

12     fuck their mother any way you know.  I'm telling you in Serbian.  Go fuck

13     yourself, hold on, my son, my falcon, and this corps will progress once

14     we have stabilised our state.  Did you understand?  You can only come

15     back dead, you cannot come alive."

16        A.   What is the question?

17        Q.   [In English] First, does that refresh your recollection as to

18     where Mr. Radic was on the morning of the 4th and what he was commanding?

19        A.   I didn't receive interpretation.

20        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection as to where Mr. Radic was on

21     the morning of the 4th?

22        A.   Probably the general engaged Radic in that tactical group which

23     was defending the stretch from Grahovo toward Knin.

24        Q.   Now, if Radic was, in fact --

25        A.   I think that Radic was the last to retreat, according to what I

Page 19095

 1     heard at a later date.  At that time, I wasn't following the activities

 2     by Radic.

 3        Q.   Yes, but my question to you is:  If Radic is, in fact, on Dinara,

 4     and you've just said that there's a fundamental principle that you don't

 5     have the entire command in one location because it can be taken out by a

 6     precise artillery hit --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   -- do you know where this report says General Kovacevic is at

 9     7.00 a.m. on the morning of the 4th?  Does that refresh your recollection

10     as to where Mr. Kovacevic may have been on the morning of the 4th?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, this document is, as Mr. Misetic has

13     stated, a report, an intelligence report by the HV.  The indications in

14     parentheses about where individuals are, are clearly written by the

15     individual who wrote the report.  The witness should first be asked if he

16     agrees with the report before it's put to him as a fact of where -- of

17     what's indicated in the report is actually true.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, there's some merit in Mr. Russo's

19     observation that the conversation, in itself, doesn't say that much.

20     Therefore, I think we should clearly distinguish between what is said and

21     what is added as comment or explanation.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Well, two points, then, Mr. President.

23        Q.   First of all, how does Mr. Kovacevic at 7.00 a.m. know that the

24     Northern Barracks, the Barracks Slavko Rodic, has been hit?  How does

25     this person know that the Northern Barracks has been hit?

Page 19096

 1        A.   Mr. Misetic, you are confusing the individual with the command.

 2     The commander can move about and know everything.  However, the command

 3     is made up of organs located in a given area.  The commander is

 4     constantly on the move.  From what I see now, the chief was on the

 5     Dinara.  I forgot this.  It was a long time ago.  But I'm telling you

 6     that Radic retreated from the Dinara during the night and was among the

 7     last ones to do so.

 8             Now, as for the rest, what was intercepted, who told what to whom

 9     and who used what sort of vocabulary, this was not compiled by an officer

10     of mine or anybody else.  You know how things are in war.  I can't

11     comment on anything here.

12        Q.   Let me ask you --

13        A.   There are political views here of a Greater Serbia, which isn't

14     something that one could hear uttered amongst us.

15        Q.   Any knowledge on your part about Mr. Radic wanting to go back

16     into Knin on the morning of the 4th?

17        A.   I didn't know anything about it.  On the 4th, at 22 p.m.

18     [as interpreted], I relocated the command post, and I came to the corps

19     command post, where I left the president was asleep, and I proceeded to

20     Srb.  I reached Srb in the morning because it was difficult to move for

21     the crowds of people on the road.

22        Q.   Let me ask you this, sir:  This is a Croatian intelligence

23     report.  Now, you testified yesterday about you don't know why certain

24     things were hit or why certain decisions were made.  If you were in

25     General Gotovina's position and received this intelligence report that

Page 19097

 1     General Kovacevic is in Knin at the Northern Barracks, would you have

 2     fired on the Northern Barracks?

 3        A.   The Northern Barracks was hit in the first strike, in the first

 4     barrage, as was the command.  It was targeted very precisely, and I

 5     commented upon it yesterday.  Of course, I would target -- I would target

 6     all the military targets, as a commander.

 7        Q.   And even after that first wave, if you found -- if you received

 8     intelligence information from your intelligence services that at

 9     7.00 a.m., General Kovacevic is in Knin, communicating with Mr. Radic on

10     the Dinara, would you have continued to fire on the Northern Barracks?

11        A.   This piece of intelligence refers to an individual and not to the

12     command.  I don't think that one would be chasing an individual with

13     rockets either about the town or on the mountains.  One uses a sniper for

14     that purpose.  That's something else.  You see, the Americans have

15     unmanned aircraft that can hit individuals whilst in vehicles, et cetera.

16        Q.   Since you're still not convinced, let me turn your attention,

17     then, to Exhibit D928, please.

18             If we could turn to page 31 in the English, please.

19             You know who General Sekulic is; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to read this book?

22        A.   No.  Let me state this now.  I didn't read a single book or watch

23     a single movie about war, because I didn't want other people's memory to

24     interfere with mine, especially because there were many of those who

25     posed as wise men after the war, in hindsight, a general who is wiser

Page 19098

 1     after a battle waged, both in Serbia and in Croatia, and I heard about

 2     him writing something.  I didn't read it.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page.  I'm sorry, page 32 in

 4     the English, page 37 in B/C/S, please, starting with the paragraph that

 5     says:  "A little after 2000 hours ..."  If we could turn the page in

 6     English, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   Now, this portion of Mr. Sekulic's book reports:

10             "A little after 2000 hours, security officer, Captain

11     Dusan Degenek informed Lieutenant-Colonel Radic that the 7th Corps

12     Command chief of security had informed him that their Dalmatian Corps

13     command post had been moved to Padjene village.  This shocked Radic.  He

14     even wondered how and why the command post was being moved, and he, as

15     Chief of Staff, was not even informed of it.  Even then, at about 2100

16     hours, Lieutenant-Colonel Radic did not know that the whole corps zone

17     had been attacked and that the command post had to be moved because it

18     was impossible to command from Knin."

19             Now, does this portion refresh your memory of when it was that

20     the command of the 7th Knin Corps was moved out of Kinin and into

21     Padjene.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Let me object, Mr. President.  First of all, this is

23     being done under the guise of refreshing recollection.  The witness

24     testified that he did not have a recollection about location of the

25     commands.

Page 19099

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Excuse me.

 2             MR. RUSSO:  He testified that he did not have a recollection as

 3     to individuals in the corps.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, when there is a dispute about what the

 5     witness exactly said, the proper way of resolving it is to point at the

 6     relevant portion of the transcript.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I will try to now find the portion of

 8     the transcript.  However, as the Prosecution is fond of saying, this is

 9     about assisting the Chamber in getting at the truth, and to that extent

10     this portion can be put to him.  The witness has said he was led by

11     Mr. Russo to conclusions about how Mr. Kovacevic wasn't in Knin, and when

12     he was shown a document to that effect, the witness said, Now that I have

13     a document in front of me, it does refresh my recollection.

14             There's no point served -- there's no purpose served in trying to

15     cloud the truth, and to that extent --

16             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, my primary objection is to the manner

17     in which it's being done.  This is redirect examination, not

18     cross-examination.  He's putting matters to him without asking him what

19     his knowledge is.  And if his knowledge is different from this, he can't

20     simply put it to him to prove differently, and he can't do it under the

21     guise of refreshing his recollection when the witness doesn't indicate

22     that his recollection needs to be refreshed on the location of the

23     command.

24             MR. MISETIC:  I disagree with that, Mr. President.  He

25     specifically, at the end of the day yesterday, said, I didn't have

Page 19100

 1     documents in front of me.  Now that I have documents in front of me, it

 2     does help me.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a general statement about the need of

 4     refreshment.  If that would apply for every single instance is another

 5     matter.  But if you could find in the record the portion of his evidence

 6     he referred to, and then you may put this, which is, by the way, not a

 7     document, it's a person writing a book, which of course is a document; I

 8     do not disagree with that.  But it's a personal account of events.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I could just clarify that point.

10     I believe Mr. Sekulic will testify that, in fact, his book is simply a

11     compilation of --

12             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, let me object to --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether or not he will testify, we have not heard

14     his testimony.  But you are now --

15             MR. MISETIC:  The book is a compilation of reports that were

16     submitted to the Main Staff of the ARSK --

17             MR. RUSSO:  Testifying in front of the witness is not

18     appropriate, Mr. President.

19             MR. MISETIC:  I'm giving you a proffer as to what the evidence

20     is.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Which should not be done in front of the witness.

22             MR. MISETIC:  As Mr. Russo did about --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's stop the discussion in this way.  I invited

24     you -- I gave you guidance, Mr. Misetic, how you can proceed, and you're

25     invited to do so.  If that takes some time, that's fully understood.

Page 19101

 1             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine, that's fine.

 2             Mr. President, this is -- I have the draft transcript.

 3     Mr. President, it's page 19030, beginning at line 12, and your question

 4     was:

 5             "Did Mr. Kovacevic leave his position at the Dinara slopes, and

 6     if so, when?"

 7             The witness's answer was:

 8             "I would really need to read his report, the one that he

 9     submitted, as to exactly when he left, but he probably left during the

10     night, because the following day, during the course of the day ...,"

11     et cetera.

12             MR. RUSSO:  This exactly my objection, Mr. President.  The

13     witness pointed out earlier to Mr. Misetic that Mr. Misetic is confusing

14     an individual with the command.  Now Mr. Misetic is putting to

15     him ... [Overlapping speakers].

16             MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers]

17             MR. RUSSO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that his recollection

18     needs to be refreshed about the location of the commands.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You're competing and blaming each other for giving

20     testimony.  Mr. Misetic, if you would like to refer to certain portions

21     of the evidence of the witness and then put a question to him, and even

22     point at what was written in the book, you can do so.  But then take it

23     step by step, clearly setting out what the witness said, whether the

24     portion of the book by Mr. Sekulic in any way refreshes or adds to what

25     is apparently -- or was his memory yesterday.

Page 19102

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Now, General, have you listened to the portion of the transcript

 3     that I read out yesterday, when you said you needed to see

 4     General Kovacevic's report as to when he left his position at the Dinara

 5     slopes?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You should read it again, Mr. Misetic.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 8        Q.   Well, the Presiding Judge yesterday asked you a question.  He

 9     said:

10             "Did Mr. Kovacevic leave his position at the Dinara slopes, and

11     if so, when?"

12             And your answer was:

13             "I would really need to read his report, the one that he

14     submitted, as to exactly when he left, but he probably left during the

15     night, because the following day, during the course of the day ...," and

16     then it goes on.

17             Now, before we get to that question, I've now -- and you've now

18     acknowledged that, in fact, Mr. Radic was on the Dinara slopes.  Would it

19     have made sense for Mr. Kovacevic and Mr. Radic, as to your earlier

20     principle about not putting all the command in one location, for those

21     two gentlemen to be located physically on the Dinara slopes so that they

22     could be taken out by a precise artillery shell?  Would that have made

23     sense?

24        A.   You are right, in that it would not have made sense.  If a chief

25     of staff goes to one location, then he should not be followed there by

Page 19103

 1     the commander.  Likewise, they should not be in the same vehicle, unless

 2     such a location is secured.  Now, if Kovacevic was there, he was of the

 3     mindset that he wanted to show the people that he was courageous, that he

 4     was a busy-body.

 5             You reminded me that he had come to see me together with brigade

 6     commanders for a meeting.  Now, where the command was is something that I

 7     testified to, because the command included some 30 or 40 officers more.

 8     The corps command even had 50 officers.

 9        Q.   Well, yesterday you testified that you weren't sure whether a

10     portion of the rear command, as you called it, remained in the

11     Northern Barracks.  Do you recall that?

12        A.   Yes.  Whether they reached the village of Golubic or stayed

13     behind in the barracks is something I don't know.  Nobody sent me these

14     accounts.  When a war was being waged throughout Krajina, this was one

15     insignificant matter to know the location of a command.

16             You are putting me in dire straits, asking me about matters that

17     I don't know, and these are matters that, let's say, the commander of the

18     southern area wouldn't know what a company of one of his battalions was

19     doing, or one of his brigades.

20        Q.   General, let me then turn your attention -- since you say I'm

21     putting you in dire straits asking you about matters that you don't know,

22     let me see if Mr. Sekulic's book --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   -- can refresh your recollection on this point, and concerning

25     the portion I read out to you about Mr. Radic being shocked that the

Page 19104

 1     command post was being moved and that he, as Chief of Staff, wasn't

 2     informed of it, and that the Dalmatian Corps command post had been moved

 3     to Padjene village because "the command post had been moved because it

 4     was impossible to command from Knin."

 5             Now, do you have any recollection of discussions on the 4th about

 6     the need to move a command - let's not call it the command - whether it's

 7     the rear command, the forward command, the main command, however you want

 8     to classify it, whatever it may have been in the Northern Barracks?  Do

 9     you recall a conversation or discussion of the need to move that command

10     out of the Northern Barracks to Padjene because it had become impossible

11     to command from within Knin?

12        A.   Well, throughout the 4th, until 10.00 in the evening, my command

13     was in Knin, and, therefore, it was not logical for that commander to be

14     in Knin.  However, just as part of my command went to Srb, part of their

15     command went to Padjene.  Now I see that it's called Padjene, that

16     railway station I was referring to.  I am not very familiar with the

17     area.  I don't know what's in dispute here.  The barracks are -- is a

18     military installation.  You had assets there that you could not take

19     along.  There were vehicles there, and it wasn't abandoned.  There were

20     warrant officers and soldiers who stayed behind to take care of the

21     assets there.  This is something that every commander would do, and of

22     course the commander went to Dinara, to Padjene, and to a meeting with me

23     with commanders, which doesn't mean that he, himself, is not -- does not

24     represent the command or the command post.

25        Q.   We're in agreement on that point, General, just so you're clear.

Page 19105

 1     Okay, we agree.  But before you -- hold on, hold on.  Let me just ask you

 2     this:  You said --

 3        A.   Well, you tell me what I am supposed to tell you, and then we are

 4     done with this.

 5        Q.   Let me ask you this question, then:  You said:

 6             "Part of my command went to Srb.  Part of their command went

 7     to ..."

 8             Where?

 9        A.   Well, they were supposed to go to Padjene, just as mine went to

10     Srb.  That's logical.  Whether they did or didn't, I don't know, because

11     I didn't keep their time.  They would have had to go, because they

12     couldn't stay in Knin and wait for the strike.  Just as I expected that I

13     would be the target, I didn't stay at the command post that night, didn't

14     sleep there, they would expect the same thing, that they would be hit or

15     targeted by the forces, or the air force, or the NATO.

16        Q.   Where was the 7th Knin Corps Logistics Base in Knin?

17        A.   I don't know, sir.  I don't even know exactly where mine was of

18     the Main Staff.  I just know that they were in Knin, in Golubici, in

19     Strmica, then down the valley of that little river along the railway

20     which Milka Planinc had started moving.  That's where we pulled out the

21     reserves, and the vehicles and our assets were dug in there.  I can't

22     tell you the details now, but I did observe the deployment and the

23     pullout before the aggression actually started.

24        Q.   Let's try to do this, before I go on:  I'd like to ask you to

25     take a look at a map of Knin.

Page 19106

 1             Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit P62 on the screen,

 2     please.

 3             And I'm going to ask you to mark certain locations on the map,

 4     based on your best recollection.  Using a blue pen, you can actually

 5     write on the screen, which you probably are familiar with from your own

 6     case.

 7        A.   No, not blue.  Red, you mean.

 8        Q.   Blue.

 9        A.   Well, then I don't want to write.  You are blue, and I was on the

10     red.  If you won't accept that, I cannot actually mark this with -- in

11     blue ink to represent myself.  I was defending myself, and I was pushed

12     out.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic, we have selected colours in this

14     courtroom so as to know always what marking was made at the request of

15     the Defence and what markings were made at the request of the

16     Prosecution.  That's the reason why you were invited to do it in blue.

17     Don't pay too much attention to the colour.  Just think as if it was red

18     or green or yellow, but it helps us later on to know whether the marking,

19     sometimes on the same map, was made at the request of the Defence or at

20     the request of the Prosecution.  So you would greatly assist us in

21     overcoming your hesitations to use a blue pen.

22             MR. MISETIC:

23        Q.   Let me ask you, General, are you able to orient yourself on the

24     map at this resolution?

25        A.   I can't figure out anything from this map.  I don't know if this

Page 19107

 1     is Knin or the suburbs.  Perhaps you should have written this -- or maybe

 2     you can just enlarge it a bit so that I can read, and then I can

 3     orientate myself.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could blow up the bottom half

 5     of this map from left to right.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise this portion of Knin?

 7        A.   Yes, I can see the fortress here, the Parliament Building.

 8        Q.   Can you locate your own command headquarters on this map?

 9        A.   Well, I can see here something that looks like a cross.  I don't

10     know what that is, this building at the foot of the Knin Fortress, across

11     from the Parliament and from the railway station.  I can't quite

12     determine what this is, because I had never -- I've never seen an aerial

13     photo of Knin.  This is the first time that I see it, so perhaps I can be

14     assisted.  I don't know whether this is a hotel where the officers

15     stayed, were accommodated.

16             Now, what is the purpose of this exercise?  Do you want me to

17     show how well I know Knin or do you want to show me where these features

18     are?  You should point them out for me.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic, don't bother too much about what the

20     purpose of the exercise is.  Try to --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I can't find my

22     way here.  I can't figure out what's what.  I only see the Knin Fortress

23     here.  Should I encircle that?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic, first try to orient yourself on this

25     map.  You said that you saw the fortress a little bit --

Page 19108

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's where I had meetings

 2     with various representatives of international organisations.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you see, a little bit above that, where it's

 4     indicated "Parliament," and further up are --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see "Knin Castle."

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now further up to the north, do you see

 7     something which looks a bit like a railway station?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can, the railway

 9     station.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you see, a little bit to the right of that, what

11     seems to be a sports field where it's written H-e-l-o, "Helo."

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that was the helipad, but I

13     never actually used it.  This was probably UNPROFOR.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but apparently you are aware --

15             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation]  I actually landed at the

16     barracks, and I don't know that it was referred to as a helipad.  Maybe

17     this was used by the UN, because they used to land their helicopters

18     there and their delegations.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not yet at the point where you answer

20     questions.  I'm just trying to assist you in orienting yourself.  If you

21     would look at the railway station, further to the left, do you see that

22     the road crosses the railway line?  Do you see that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And "General Supply."  Okay.  Do you see further to

25     the left, a tiny bit further up, that it says "Knin Army Barracks"?

Page 19109

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the barracks, yes.  They

 2     called it the Northern Barracks, I think.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, exactly.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's where the corps command was

 5     in peacetime.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you able now to find your way and to understand

 7     what this aerial photograph depicts?  And I have to tell you that it's

 8     always a bit confusing that where usually north is up, here north is to

 9     the left.  So to that extent --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see this.  This is

13     showing the eastern area, the slopes of the Knin Fortress, where the

14     Presidency was or, as they call it, the Parliament, but for the main

15     part, portions of the army actually met there.  And then I can also see

16     the Southern Barracks, where the UNPROFOR forces were.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The railway station, which was

19     close to the command, I had actually never been at that railway station,

20     but I knew of it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you to explain everything you now see

22     on the map, but apparently you were able to orient yourself.  Listen

23     carefully to the questions that will be put to you by Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   General, can you first draw a circle around the Northern Barracks

Page 19110

 1     and put an A next to it?

 2        A.   [Marks].  Well, there is a sort of encirclement, because there is

 3     the fence all around it, running around it.

 4        Q.   Can you locate the TVIK factory on this map?

 5             Let me try it this way:  Can you circle --

 6        A.   You must help me a bit.

 7        Q.   Can you circle the railway station and put a B next to it?

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Can you circle the general area of where your command was

10     located?  You don't have to be perfect on the building, but just the

11     general area where your command was.

12        A.   [Marks].  I think this is it.  As far as I can recall, I think

13     this was in the center of the town.

14        Q.   Can you put a C next to that, please?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Now, from the railway station, which is B, do you recall which

17     direction the TVIK factory was?

18        A.   It was across on the other side.  I think it's the area where the

19     facilities beyond the pole station, as it says.  These facilities would

20     have had to -- would have to be the TVIK factory, because it was

21     practically in the town itself.  Should I circle that?  [Marks].  I never

22     set foot in it, and I never actually visited it.

23        Q.   Can you put a D within that circle, please.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Now, do you know where the logistics barracks was or something

Page 19111

 1     called the Senjak Barracks?

 2        A.   Well, it was also here.  As you can see, it's sort of circled.

 3     It's to the left of the TVIK factory.  It says "General Supply Support."

 4     Which letter should I put there, E?  [Marks]

 5        Q.   Can you tell us where the MUP police station was?

 6        A.   Oh, well, that, too, was in the town somewhere, but I'm not sure.

 7     The ministry, and the organs around it, were together with the command in

 8     the area marked C.  As for the traffic police and other police, I don't

 9     know exactly where it was.

10        Q.   Do you know whether the Special Units Corps was quartered in

11     Knin, or a portion of the Special Units Corps?

12        A.   No, no.  They came after Grahovo fell; in other words, before the

13     4th, they had already returned, Stupor [phoen] had returned because his

14     command -- he returned with his corps with a group that he brought in for

15     interventions.  They were sent back to Slunj.  They never entered Knin.

16     I don't think that he ever came to the command post where I was, because

17     there were urgent matters that I had to deal with; the cutting off of the

18     corps, the joining of the corps with the 5th Corps.

19        Q.   Where was the PTT?

20        A.   To be honest, I was only brought to Knin, by car, to the command

21     post, and I was taken to a house in the town, where I would have my

22     meals, and then I would return in the evening to spend the night there,

23     so I don't know where these institutions were in Knin.  I never even went

24     to the hospital, nor did I ever see the UNPROFOR barracks, except for

25     what I could see from the helicopter as I landed at the

Page 19112

 1     Northern Barracks.  I never used this helipad.  So I don't know where the

 2     PTT hub was or where the police station was, but I know that most of the

 3     forces -- most of the MUP forces and the ministry were in

 4     one-and-the-same building.  They were on different floors.  They had

 5     their own security.  We did not really mingle.

 6        Q.   Well, do you know if the police station had an antenna on the

 7     roof?

 8        A.   Well, I think there were antennas, TV antennas, on every

 9     building, I don't even know where the TV was.  Although they were under

10     the direct control of the Main Staff, this was something that

11     Kosta Novakovic dealt with.  I don't know, I didn't know about it.  I

12     spent -- I was there for very brief periods and I had a lot of work to

13     do, so I had to rely on my subordinates.  Everyone did their own part of

14     the job.  The main thing for me was to avoid the aggression, to prevent

15     it.

16        Q.   Do you know where the Stara Bolnica, the old hospital, was?

17        A.   I don't know.  I'm not the right person to ask those details of.

18     If you were to ask me now where I could -- to find the house where I was

19     accommodated for those 10 days or so, I couldn't actually show you where

20     it was.  I just know that I had to walk through the town.  It was

21     somewhere -- going from the barracks, I would -- when the shelling

22     started, I would then move to the basement of some buildings and wait for

23     the shelling to stop.  It was a private home.  I don't know exactly whose

24     it was.

25        Q.   Do you know where the MUP or SUP Special Police Platoon was

Page 19113

 1     located in Knin?

 2        A.   It was on the Dinara.  Martic ordered the minister to send them

 3     to Dinara because we didn't have personnel.  Everyone was on the

 4     front-line.

 5        Q.   Where was their base in Knin?

 6        A.   That, I wouldn't know.  Oh, no, excuse me.  There was a police

 7     base somewhere towards Golubici, when you leave Knin.  And it's a good

 8     thing that you reminded me of this, because one of my -- one of my

 9     assignments when I took over was this:  I insisted that this antagonism

10     that existed between the MUP and the army should be overcome, because we

11     cannot change the attitudes and the perceptions among the civilians if,

12     within our own ranks, we go each our own way.  And thank you for

13     reminding me of this, because I managed to actually build this

14     relationship so that later on they would join us in some of the fighting

15     at Grebine, on the Dinara, and they even took part in some other

16     assignments.

17        Q.   General --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I remind you of something else as well, Mr. Mrksic.

19             MR. MISETIC:

20        Q.   General, do you know where St. Anthony's Monastery is in Knin?

21        A.   I don't know either where Lazarica is or where the

22     St. Ante Monastery is.  I didn't have time to go there.  I did go once to

23     the Krka Monastery.  I went there with the Zagreb bishop, the Italian

24     Zagreb bishop, I believe he's called -- referred to.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I may just have one moment.

Page 19114

 1             Mr. President, if we could have this exhibit marked, and I tender

 2     it into evidence, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1525.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   General Mrksic, I'd like to take you now to Exhibit P2431.

10             Mr. President, this is map 30 in the map binder.

11             And I'm going to show you a map of Knin municipality, General.

12     That's not the map.

13        A.   These are counties.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The right map will appear soon.  Loading maps takes

15     a bit more time.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Here we go.  If we could blow that up in the

17     area -- the yellow area, the area around Knin, please.

18        Q.   Now, General, using that blue pen again, can you tell us where

19     the command of the 7th Knin Corps was moved to?

20        A.   [Marks].  The railway station here at Padjene, that's where it

21     was.  I went there by night and left by night, and that was the only time

22     that I actually went there.

23        Q.   Can you put an A next to that, please?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Now, that road ultimately leads to the Otric Nac; is that

Page 19115

 1     correct?

 2        A.   It leads up towards Otric, yes, and then on to Srb, but it's not

 3     shown on the map here.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us where the arms depot in the Golubic area was

 5     located, looking at this map?

 6        A.   Well, you see this road here.  There were some minor smaller

 7     roads there.  They were in these cliffs.  I went there once.  There was a

 8     huge military depot there.  It used -- actually, it used to be a depot

 9     for the JNA.  And I can't recall in detail, but this road going towards

10     Golubici, you would actually enter the depot in a vehicle [marks].  I

11     mean, this is just approximately telling you what it was like, as far as

12     I can recall.

13             But beyond Strmica, where this road was being built, they were

14     pulling out reserves, and we removed from this depot here everything

15     there, because we wanted to make sure that in -- because of the shelling,

16     should they be hit, there would have been a huge explosion and the entire

17     Knin would be just blown up.  And this is what we referred to as

18     dispersion of assets.

19        Q.   Now, can you identify for us and circle on the map locations

20     where the ARSK had either artillery emplacements or anti-aircraft

21     batteries?

22        A.   I cannot help you with such details.

23        Q.   Is that --

24        A.   I don't recall, I can't recall.  I don't know where they shelled

25     from, what positions.  I know that we pulled one weapon there, and we

Page 19116

 1     tried to provide support to Republika Srpska, which did not react,

 2     because up there we had some forces there, a company-strong group, and

 3     they used this --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter requests that the witness

 5     repeat what he is saying, and a bit slower, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat the last portion of your

 7     answer.  You said you tried to provide support to Republika Srpska, which

 8     did not react, because up there you had some forces.  And could you then

 9     finish your answer again?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, I don't know.  Our

11     forces were there, and they kept asking, from Republika Srpska, that we

12     provide support to them, that we provide a company to them or support

13     them with Orkans.  But whatever we managed to recover during the day,

14     overnight it would fall.  And then I asked them, Why don't you let me go

15     there with my special corps, and let's see, if I took over command,

16     whether they would be able to advance like that.  But then they told me,

17     Well, you can't take command over on our territory.  And, of course, what

18     happened then, I've already told you about this.  A weapon, 152

19     millimetres, called Nora, was brought there to Knin Polje, and it was

20     there, I don't know, in Medakovic or Cuge, that area.  It was on the

21     foothills of the Dinara, and then towards the shooting range, and from

22     there we shelled Grahovo Polje.

23             Now, what can you do with one weapon?  Nothing.  We did that

24     while we still had ammunition.  But then later on, because this

25     ammunition was scarce, this 152-millimetre ammunition -- it was Russian

Page 19117

 1     made.  But all of this was at the beginning of the aggression.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Wait for the next question.

 3             Mr. Misetic.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I would ask that this exhibit be

 5     marked, and I tender it into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 7             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1526.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             Now, if we could go, please, back to Exhibit D923.  Actually,

14     while we still have this on the screen -- it's more difficult to see.

15             Let's first go to Exhibit D384, Mr. Registrar?

16             Mr. President, I assume we're going until 11.00; is that correct?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, or close to 11.00 so as to evenly divide the

18     time.  How much time would you --

19             MR. MISETIC:  I'm not sure at this point.  It depends on the

20     answers.  I may need another hour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you feel that you're not going to make it until

22     11.00, then please tell me already at quarter to 11.00.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I'm not.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not going to make it.  Then I suggest that we

25     have our next break at quarter to, up to 10 minutes to 11.00.

Page 19118

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, sir.

 2             If we could go to page 2, please.

 3        Q.   Now, looking at this map, do you see that on the red circle is

 4     Padjene, General?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And if we go to the right, you see there's something there marked

 7     "Barracks Stara Straza"?  Were you familiar with what was there at

 8     Stara Straza?

 9        A.   I was not familiar with it.  I only knew the name, Stara Straza,

10     but nobody told me specifically what it was.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  If we could now go to Exhibit D923, English

12     page 25, towards the bottom, beginning at numbered paragraph 5.  Page 16

13     in the B/C/S, please at the very bottom.

14        Q.   Now, again, General Mrksic, this is your report, and it says:

15             "On 5 August 1995, in the morning, the organs of the Main Staff

16     Logistics had found themselves in Srb, where they established a rear

17     command post and made an overview of the logistics support system

18     functioning.  Then it was ordered to evacuate 14 railway wagons loaded

19     with ammunition from the tunnel on the axis Stara Straza-Padjene and to

20     relocate them to Otric-Malovan region, in order to take them to the

21     Republika Srpska territory.  However, the train personnel and the

22     security left the wagons during the night, but even had they been at

23     their work posts in the morning, it would not have been possible to do

24     anything constructive, since Malovan had already been under the enemy

25     fire."

Page 19119

 1             If we go to the next paragraph, please, in the B/C/S on the next

 2     page.

 3             Now, you report:

 4             "In order to initiate destruction of ammunition in the tunnels

 5     near Stara Straza, the armoured train was pushed, in order to incite an

 6     explosion due to the inertia, and crashed with the wagons loaded with

 7     ammunition.  This operation failed because the train turned over before

 8     the entry into the tunnel.

 9             "It was ordered to blow up the mined ammunition store 'Golubic,'

10     and for that all preparations had been carried out previously.  But due

11     to the disruption of communications, it was not possible to forward the

12     order to the store commander."

13             Now, General, yesterday you were asked some questions about the

14     railway functioning, and one of your answers was that the armoured train

15     stopped functioning, I believe you said, in 1992.  Now, can you explain

16     what the purpose -- first of all, why -- your report says that there, in

17     fact, were train personnel, but they left the wagons during the night.

18     Why was there train personnel employed?

19             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, if I could first object to this.

20             The testimony given during cross-examination related to use of

21     the railways in Knin, and this is -- if Mr. Misetic wants to point to the

22     transcript, we will see from the transcript references what that

23     discussion was about.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, that is not a proper objection, and

25     as far as I know, railways don't operate within 500 metres, they go

Page 19120

 1     someplace, and that's the next area where I'm taking him on my cross, and

 2     the objection is totally improper.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  The objection, Mr. President, is that this does not

 4     arise from cross-examination.  This is simply an attempt to correct

 5     problems during his direct examination.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  That's absolutely untrue.  As a matter of fact,

 7     Mr. President, we can look at P804, which is an ECMM report, where I was

 8     going to take him next, which says train are seen being moved in Knin.

 9     Now, I'm entitled to go into redirect and put it to the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

11             MR. RUSSO:  I don't know why he didn't simply start with the

12     ECMM, rather than taking him to areas where I didn't cover and ask him

13     about those areas.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But since he'll go there, the objection still

15     stands?

16             MR. RUSSO:  That depends on whether we're going there now or if

17     he's going to continue with this area.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, anyway you could proceed in such a way

19     that you could do it uninterrupted.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I think I'm entitled to show the

21     railways had 14 wagons full of ammunition.  Mr. Russo may not like it.

22     That's certainly his issue that he can raise.  But what are the trains

23     doing in Knin?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may continue your line of questioning.

25             MR. RUSSO:  If I could just -- Mr. President, the question, What

Page 19121

 1     are they doing in Knin, the question has not been put to the witness

 2     where these were.  The document he's been shown does not indicate they

 3     were in Knin.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, as I said, there's an ECMM report.

 5     It will be shown to the witness.  But first we're entitled to explore the

 6     use of the railway system.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Under those circumstances, you may proceed.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Now, General, I'm just going back to my question.  Why was train

10     personnel employed in the Stara Straza-Padjene axis?

11        A.   This was probably down to the Logistics Base to pull out these

12     assets.  Since the railway was not damaged, it could have been used, some

13     20 to 30 per cent of it.  I know that trains were not running through

14     Knin; maybe locally.  I didn't hear the noise of the trains, and I didn't

15     use one, and nobody -- I never heard anybody say I was going to go to

16     Lapac by train.

17             As for the armoured train, this was some contraption that was

18     produced at the beginning of the war, and nobody got what the point was.

19     What did they want to achieve by it?  Some sort of an explosion.  That

20     didn't make any sense.

21             This probably served as justification for the fact that

22     ammunition had been left there.  You know how people want, for the sake

23     of history, to rectify certain matters by providing explanations.

24     Somebody must have compiled the document and given it to me for

25     signature.  I don't know if it bears my signature or not.

Page 19122

 1             Well, I don't see what is controversial there.  If there were

 2     empty carriages, then they could have been used to pull the ammunition

 3     out of the area.

 4        Q.   Let me make sure I understand your testimony.  General, this

 5     is -- this is your report, Exhibit D923, and you say that -- page 31,

 6     lines 12 and 13 -- sorry, 11 through 13:  "This probably --" this -- and

 7     you're referring to the portion I read from your report:

 8             "This probably served as justification for the fact that

 9     ammunition had been left there.  You know how people want, for the sake

10     of history, to rectify certain matters by providing explanations."

11        A.   But of course.  I would have preferred that it had not been left

12     there, but we can't escape the fact that it was, and that's why I'm here

13     today.

14        Q.   Now, General, if I could turn your attention to Exhibit P804,

15     please.

16             If we scroll down to section 4 of this report, which is the next

17     page in the B/C/S.

18             General, this is a report from the ECMM on the 4th of August, and

19     you can see in point 4 it says :

20             "Obviously, a lot of damage during the day.  Trains are seen

21     being moved in Knin.  Comment:  Presumably used for military purpose, but

22     could these be used for the evacuation of civilians?"

23             Now, do you recall seeing trains moving in Knin on the 4th of

24     August?

25        A.   I don't recall seeing trains.  If they were moving, then the

Page 19123

 1     purpose of it was to pull out ammunition, since trains were workable up

 2     to the point where depots were located.

 3             As for the civilians, themselves, I don't know how far they could

 4     have been evacuated by trains.  They were evacuated by buses, by private

 5     vehicles, others on foot, still others asked their neighbours to give

 6     them a lift, or whatever could be found as means of transport was used.

 7             This is the first time I hear of an interpretation of the

 8     evacuation of civilians as being done by trains.  I don't know.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could now have 65 ter 1D1082,

10     please.

11        Q.   I'm going to ask you a few questions about the TVIK factory that

12     you were asked about yesterday, General.  And if we look at the

13     English -- the first page is a cover page, signed by -- or for Assistant

14     Commander Mirko Bjelanovic, where he is forwarding a document of the

15     Main Staff, dated 11 June 1995, in which the Main Staff requested

16     modification of aerial bombs so they could be launched by the Kosava

17     LRST M-94.  It says the attack will be carried out by Banijametal, work

18     organisation in Dvor na Uni, with whom a contract on the modification

19     should be written up.

20             If you turn the page, it's the attached letter.  It's signed

21     by -- if we turn the page in the B/C/S.  It's signed by you.

22        A.   I don't see the signature.  Where is it?

23        Q.   It's coming up, General.

24        A.   This isn't my signature.

25        Q.   Can you tell what is written there in type?

Page 19124

 1        A.   It says "Mile Mrksic," but my signature never looked like this

 2     one.  I don't see what is controversial here, other than the fact that

 3     this isn't my signature.  Shoot any questions you have.

 4        Q.   Let me just point out that paragraph 2 of this document, if we

 5     could go back one page in the English, now it says in paragraph 2:

 6             "Upon completing the manufacture of 75 bombs by the Banijametal

 7     RO in Dvor na Uni, hand them over in units according to the following

 8     schedule."

 9             And one of the units is the 7th Knin Corps, the 15th Corps, and

10     then below that it says remaining bombs are to be stored in the Golubic

11     depot.

12             Now if we could go to -- now, this is as of 12 June.

13        A.   Please, the signature we see in the right-hand corner -- now

14     you've taken it off the screen.  This isn't my handwriting or my

15     signature or initials.  Can we go to the top of the page, please?  "Chief

16     of the Technical Service."

17        Q.   Yes.  I've had it translated as "Dobrijevic" on the top corner.

18        A.   I don't know the man, and this isn't my signature.  It must have

19     been done through someone else.  Let's see what the gist is and what you

20     want me to tell you.

21        Q.   Hold on.  Let's look at two more documents, and then I'll ask you

22     the question.  General, let's look at Exhibit D950.

23        A.   Can we agree that I didn't sign the document?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic, you testified that it's not your

25     signature.  We don't have to reach agreements between witnesses and the

Page 19125

 1     parties.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. MISETIC:

 4        Q.   General, this is now Exhibit D950.  This is 10 July, and now it

 5     makes reference to that company that's in the previous document,

 6     Banijametal at Dvor na Uni, and it says:

 7             "Due to the urgent need of constructing lethal devices to be

 8     launched from an earth-bound rocket launcher and given the capacity of

 9     the TVIK factory - Knin - we have allocated part of the production of

10     certain products in cooperation with the Banijametal factory.  Dvor na

11     Uni, to the aforementioned factory."

12             And then the third paragraph says:

13             "I propose that the TVIK factory - Knin - be put into the work

14     system of the Sector for Military and Special-Purpose Production, at

15     least for a certain period of time and that the requirements of the

16     sector for military and special purpose production be considered a work

17     priority."

18             And now let me turn your attention to another document.

19     Mr. Registrar, this is D444, please.

20             This is an order for air defence, an operational order, dated 13

21     February 1995.  The introductory paragraph -- and this is of the command

22     of the 7th Knin Corps.  It talks about anticipated attacks, and it says:

23             "In the corps defence area, approximately 24 sorties of combat

24     aircrafts may be expected ..."

25             And if we go into paragraph 2, it says:

Page 19126

 1             "The focus of the operation is to be expected on the following

 2     axes:"

 3             And it gives the axes, and then it says:

 4             "... with the attack directed on the positions on artillery units

 5     for support and anti-armour combat, on the armoured mechanised units,

 6     Knin town, and the structures in the town such as the General Staff of

 7     the Serb Army of the Krajina, the TVIK factory, the military barracks,

 8     et cetera ..."

 9        A.   Hydro plant Obrovac, Manojlovac, and the storage sites at

10     Golubic.  Yes, that's right that was an assessment of what was to be

11     expected.

12        Q.   I've shown you those documents about, at least, which purport to

13     show at least some intent for production of military supplies in the TVIK

14     factory.  My question to you is:  Why would the 7th Knin Corps have

15     anticipated an attack by the HV on the TVIK factory?

16        A.   Sir, every factory -- well, why did NATO strike all of our

17     factories during the aggression?  Whatever could be used for certain

18     purposes was declared a military target.  If you look at nuts and bolts

19     individually, then they don't serve a purpose, but if you put them to

20     use, then they could also be used for military purposes.  But the factory

21     did not produce a rifle, a bomb, or any explosive.  It was natural for

22     any country to have a factory that would be producing goods that could be

23     used for other purposes, and then, of course, you have assembly factory

24     as well.

25             Well, look at what we had in Slavonski Brod.  You had parts

Page 19127

 1     produced across Yugoslavia which would then be assembled in

 2     Slavonski Brod.  And I didn't know of anything being assembled to that

 3     effect in TVIK factory, because they would have invited me, as a

 4     commander, to make a tour of the factory.  It was important for the

 5     workers, and even today it is important for the residents of Knin.  It

 6     was the largest nut-and-bolts factory in former Yugoslavia, with

 7     cutting-edge technology.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I would tender 65 ter 1D1082.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  We'll object, Mr. President, based on the witness's

10     testimony.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number so that the

12     document be MFI'd.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1527, marked

14     for identification.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16             Mr. Misetic, perhaps we could first ask the witness to be

17     escorted out of the courtroom.

18             We'd like to see you back after the break, Mr. Mrksic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A break, right.  I thought it was

20     all over, and I was surprised that we finished so soon.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, could you give us an estimate on how

23     much time you would still need?

24             MR. MISETIC:  Forty-five minutes or less, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I like the "or less" rather than the 45 minutes.

Page 19128

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Perhaps half an hour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you try to finish in half an hour.  Then I

 3     take it the Cermak Defence --

 4             MR. KAY:  No questions, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

 6             Mr. Mikulicic.

 7             Mr. Russo, as matters stand now?

 8             MR. RUSSO:  As matters stand now, Mr. President, I don't have

 9     anything.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Then we'll break now and resume at 20 minutes past 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Mrksic.

17             Mr. Misetic, you may continue.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Mr. Registrar, may we please have 1D1048 on the screen, please,

20     page 16 of the B/C/S, page 4 of the English.

21        Q.   General, this is a report that you can see on your screen, on the

22     right-hand side, purporting to be sent on the 4th of August from you to

23     the Yugoslav Army, General Staff, Air Force and Air Defence Sector.

24             I don't think we have the right translation on the screen.  There

25     we go.

Page 19129

 1             And if you look at the stamp on the bottom, and if we can scroll

 2     down on the original, it says it was received at 1300 hours on the 4th of

 3     August.  Now, can you explain this document for us?  It talks about the

 4     following means of communication have been destroyed/disabled, and "we

 5     are requesting replenishment."  Can you explain what types of

 6     communication were destroyed?

 7        A.   This is the PVO and RV system, the equipment for their systems.

 8     The RRU 800 was, at the time, the key instrument for communications.  It

 9     was a long-range device.  The RRU 1 are radio relay devices, one-channel

10     devices.  The gentlemen know that.  The radio station or radio unit 100,

11     that's 100 kilometres, its range.  The IFP-PKON, this is very technical,

12     it's probably a wire -- or land wire system of communications.  And UKP

13     are cables or wires.  These -- actually, these devices were destroyed

14     during the first -- in the first barrage of fire.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

16             Mr. President, I ask this exhibit be marked, and I tender it into

17     evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

19             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1528.

22             THE COURT:  And it is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Just for the record, Mr. President, this is part of

24     that long exhibit and we will upload only the pages.  So, for the record,

25     it is -- the portion is Exhibit D1048, that is page 16 in the B/C/S and

Page 19130

 1     page 4 in the English.

 2        Q.   Mr. -- I'm sorry.  General, let me show you another map.  This is

 3     65 ter 4865.  It is map 20 in the binder of maps.

 4             Now, this is a map of the Gracac municipality, and you can locate

 5     in the middle of the screen the word "Gracac."  And if we go -- you'll

 6     recall yesterday you had some question as to the location of Bruvno.  If

 7     you go -- take that road that goes north from Gracac, you'll see --

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.  I see it.

 9        Q.   Okay.  That is where the -- you had located a portion of the

10     Special Unit Corps, the KSJ, before Storm; correct?

11        A.   Yes, a portion of the brigade, yes.  This was the theatre --

12     landing theatre for interventions to the left and to the right, that

13     area.

14        Q.   Now, if you were going to deploy them from Bruvno, let's say to

15     get to Knin to assist on the Dinara, or to go to Mali Alan to assist in

16     the breakthrough where the Croatian Special Police were breaking through,

17     would they have to go through that junction, through Gracac, and then go

18     left or go right, to get to --

19        A.   Yes, yes, that's right, but I think the intersection -- because I

20     took this road a number of times, the intersection or the cross-road is

21     before Gracac, if you're headed towards Knin.  The road actually forks

22     earlier on, but if you were to take the pass -- the mountain pass

23     towards -- towards whatever, of course then you would have to go through

24     Gracac.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 19131

 1        A.   So these were the axes of possible interventions.  You've noticed

 2     this quite well.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.  Mr. President, I wasn't sure if this

 4     map was in evidence or not.  I thought it was, by agreement of the

 5     parties.  But if not, I'll tender it, and perhaps we can MFI it.  And if

 6     it is, then obviously we don't have to put it in.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  I don't object to the exhibit.  I'm just paying

 9     attention to the transcript, the page 39 to 25, to page 40 through 5,

10     I think there were some words missing about how he described the precise

11     location of the intersection which don't appear on the transcript.

12             MR. MISETIC:  I'm not sure what's missing at this point.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can repeat.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, but I would have one question.

15             You were describing the fork.  Coming from Bruvno, going to the

16     south, just before you arrive at Gracac town, where you turn -- you turn

17     to the right and will then arrive --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left, to the left, towards

19     Knin.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, to the left, towards Knin, avoiding that you

21     have to pass through Gracac town.  And if you turn to the right, you

22     have, I think, two options.  One is going through town, itself, and

23     another one going --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and one is going around Gracac

25     or along Gracac.  That's how the main road actually used to run, if

Page 19132

 1     you're going to the seaside.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, but --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's now clear to me, because where exactly the

 4     fork was -- and that, I take it, you want to draw our attention

 5     especially to the crossroads, or the fork, as the witness said.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Under those circumstances, Mr. Russo, you're

 8     satisfied that --

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, if not in evidence, I don't know

11     whether we ever admitted the whole -- I don't think the whole series,

12     but --

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I don't show that this specific

14     65 ter number is in evidence, so this will become Exhibit D1529.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, D1529 is admitted into evidence.

16             I again urge the parties, now it is not dramatic here, if you use

17     maps, use maps which really reflects what's on the ground and not the

18     stretched ones, because all the proportions, and that's true with all

19     these maps, are just wrong.  But for the purposes today, it doesn't make

20     much of a difference.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It's my confusion,

23     because Mr. Markac and I had actually sat down and selected 30 that we

24     all agreed were going, so I was unaware that, ultimately, they did not

25     all going in.

Page 19133

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you compare them with proper maps, you'll see

 2     that they're all stretched.  That means that the distances, horizontally

 3     or vertically, are not reflecting the real distances.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   General, I want to turn your attention to this issue of

 7     encirclement.

 8             And first if I could ask that 65 ter 2326 be brought on the

 9     screen.

10             Now, General Mrksic, were you aware that the Security Council

11     passed a resolution concerning the events in Croatia on the 10th of

12     August, 1995?

13        A.   On the 10th of August, 1995?  At the time, I was already in

14     Banja Luka and dealing with totally different problems, so I had no idea

15     what was going on in the world.  I didn't receive any newspapers, nor was

16     I briefed on it, nor was there anyone who could brief me, because at the

17     time we were practically disintegrating.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So the simple answer was, no, you were not aware?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not aware.

20             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 2 of the Security Council --

21     no, sorry.  Yes, page 2.  It might be page 3.  It is page 3, I'm sorry,

22     under point 2.

23             Your Honour, it appears that the B/C/S document is not the same

24     as the Security Council resolution on the screen, so I'm not --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems to be the case.

Page 19134

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  We'll have to have that corrected.

 2             Let me just read out the one portion that's of interest to me,

 3     General, and that is the Security Council demanding, amongst other

 4     things, that the Government of the Republic of Croatia, under point A,

 5     respect fully the rights of the local Serb population, including their

 6     rights to remain, leave, or return in safety.

 7        Q.   Now --

 8        A.   Super.  Yes, well, this was before the aggression.  Had this

 9     happened before the aggression, it would not have gone the way it did,

10     but -- that would have been perfect, but, unfortunately, in practice it

11     didn't happen.  This is exactly what we were aiming for.  That's why I

12     went there.

13        Q.   My question is:  You did, ultimately, have some knowledge of what

14     did happen in Sector North, for example, with Mr. Bulat.  Were you aware

15     of the general position of the international community, that the Republic

16     of Croatia should respect the rights of the local Serb population to

17     leave, if they wished?

18        A.   I did not have any knowledge of these paragraphs, nor did I have

19     any communications, and I was in no communication with the encircled

20     1st Corps.  My connection or my communication was when I ordered that the

21     tanks be pulled out so that the T-84s do not fall into the enemy's hand.

22     And then I withdrew to Dvor, and I fought there in order to prevent the

23     people, the civilian population, being massacred in Dvor.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I understand the witness's answers,

25     but on the assumption that there's no dispute that this is the resolution

Page 19135

 1     of the Security Council, I'd ask that the exhibit be marked, and I tender

 2     it into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's more or less a Bar table submission,

 6     because the witness apparently has no knowledge or -- and was even a bit

 7     confused when he said this was before the aggression, since the date was

 8     the 10th.

 9             But, Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to this document?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I would like to say

11     something else.  I would like to change what I've said.

12             I would have liked this to have been before the aggression, but

13     you understood me to say that this actually was before the aggression.

14     This is -- this was my wish.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It's now fully understood.  Reading this, you say if

16     this only would have happened before what you call the aggression.

17             Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1530.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D1530 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Now, General, let me ask you some questions.

22             You are an officer who was trained at the highest levels in the

23     Yugoslav Army; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it's correct, and I became a general during the SFRY, the

25     same way that President Tudjman became general, except he had become a

Page 19136

 1     general much earlier.  But we went to the same schools.

 2        Q.   What was the highest level of military education that you

 3     received?

 4        A.   The War College and the Operations School.  We used to call it

 5     the War School or War College, but it changed -- it had changed its name

 6     into the Operations School.  That's where I graduated from, because this

 7     is the school where we actually studied large operations.

 8        Q.   Did you, in your military education, have an opportunity to study

 9     military history?

10        A.   Well, as far as the instructors, and the lecturers provided us

11     with these, but, of course, as any young man, I was interested in reading

12     up on the history of my own nation, but not in any particular special

13     courses, and I wasn't really very much into history.

14        Q.   Well, I'm going to ask you some questions based on an answer you

15     gave at transcript page 19080, line 4, which I believe is Mr. Russo

16     citing earlier testimony of yours.  And this is related to your point

17     that -- but you didn't just cut us off.  And I'm going to -- for example,

18     let me just ask you:  Have you heard of some of the great military

19     works -- Sun Tzu --

20        A.   Sun Tzu Wa, yes.

21        Q.   Vegetius, the principle of Scipio?  Let me show you on the

22     screen, General.  This is via Sanction.  Let me -- Sun Tzu is a 6th

23     century Chine general who wrote --

24        A.   Yes.  You have to do something so that the enemy actually does

25     what you want him to do.  In that sense, yes.

Page 19137

 1        Q.   One of the other great books of military history is from Roman

 2     times, and let me show you.  And I'm going to ask to read this portion to

 3     you from the great works of military history and ask you whether you

 4     agree with it, and this is via Sanction.  This is now

 5     Flavius Vegetius Renatus on Military Matters, Book 3.  One of the maxims

 6     is:

 7             "The flight of an enemy should not be prevented, but

 8     facilitated."

 9             And he wrote thousands of years ago:

10             "Generals unskilled in war think a victory incomplete unless the

11     enemy are so straightened in their ground or so entirely surrounded by

12     numbers as to have no possibility of escape.  But in such situation,

13     where no hopes remain, fear itself will arm an enemy and despair inspires

14     courage.  When men find they must inevitably perish, they willingly

15     resolve to die with their comrades and with their arms in their hands.

16     The maxim of Scipio, that a golden bridge should be made for a flying

17     enemy, has been much commended.  For when they have free room to escape,

18     they think of nothing but how to save themselves by flight, and the

19     confusion becomes general; great numbers are cut to pieces."

20        A.   Well, actually, this is exactly what I would like to comment on.

21     This is perfect for my purposes.

22        Q.   "The pursuers can be in no danger when the vanquished have thrown

23     away their arms for greater haste.  In this case, the greater the number

24     of the flying army, the greater the slaughter.  Numbers are of no

25     signification where troops, once thrown into consternation, are equally

Page 19138

 1     terrified at the sight of the enemy as at their weapons.  But on the

 2     contrary, when men shut up, although weak and few in number, become a

 3     match for the enemy from this very reflection, that they have no resource

 4     but in despair."

 5             Now, General, that's a principle, I assume, that you're very

 6     familiar with, as a general who passed through military education, you

 7     should leave a golden bridge for your enemy to flee; is that right?

 8        A.   Well, don't put the question to me like that.  You've read the

 9     text for like 20 minutes by this Flavius whoever, a military theoretician

10     from days of Rome, but I wouldn't go that far back into time.  Let's go

11     back to World War II.  It is true that once you put a cork in the bottle

12     and there is no way out, then the cost is very high.  Every soldier knows

13     that.

14             Don't preach to me or don't teach me.  I didn't understand you to

15     be doing that, but thank you very much for putting this up or raising

16     this issue, because I would like to say something to the Court.

17             We all know that the enemy should never be brought in despair,

18     because, first of all, that would cause a lot of your own victims and

19     losses, because it does not allow the enemy any other option but to fight

20     to the death.  If they do not believe in who they are fighting against in

21     their moral integrity, in their keeping to the international rules of

22     law, you're right, then they would sell their skin highly.

23             And you're absolutely right.  When I was on my first wartime

24     assignment at Vukovar, I kept a road open throughout this time towards

25     Vinkovci.  Had I shut off that way out, Vukovar would have fallen in a

Page 19139

 1     day.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter kindly requests that the

 3     witness repeat the last portion.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.   General, General, the interpreter did not hear the last few

 6     sentences.

 7        A.   Yes, I will reiterate it slowly.

 8             What you have said here -- all right.  Whenever the purpose is

 9     not to destroy the enemy, to destroy his manpower, then you must always

10     leave a road for the enemy to pull out.  However, if the goal is to

11     conquer a territory, regardless of what happens to the enemy, then that

12     escape route should be so wide that the enemy doesn't give it a second

13     thought but use it.  So you should never put the enemy in a situation

14     where he has to fight instinctively and to fight to the death.  That's

15     the role of every commander.

16             But I would like to ask you a question.

17        Q.   Unfortunately --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I just consulted with my colleagues --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because this is a scientific

20     sort of position.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether it's scientific or not, whether it's,

22     to some extent, military philosophy, whether, to some extent, it is

23     military history, where military philosophy, perhaps, not always matches

24     with military history, especially if we are then soliciting -- I'm not

25     saying that you sought that, Mr. Misetic, but if elements of other cases

Page 19140

 1     get involved, then the Chamber is not assisted by that and would like you

 2     to focus again on what is relevant for this case.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  I had no intention of getting into any other cases

 4     before the Tribunal --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but that's, to some extent, what might have

 6     happened.  And there again, history and philosophy, how important it may

 7     be, has no direct bearing on this case.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Well, Your Honour, it was only raised with respect

 9     to the answer that I cited the transcript for.  So if I may --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I understand you, but we let you go for a

11     while, we let the witness go for a while, and now we move on to other

12     matters.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  And, Mr. President, as a matter of fact, I've

14     completed it, my examination.

15             General, I want to thank you for coming and testifying, and I

16     thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

18             The position the same, Mr. Kay; no questions for the Cermak

19     Defence.  Mr. Mikulicic, no questions from the Markac Defence.

20             Mr. Russo.

21             MR. RUSSO:  No questions, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic, I have a few questions for you.

23                           Questioned by the Court:

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first have on the screen D923.

25             Yes.  Mr. Mrksic, quite a lot of questions have been put to you

Page 19141

 1     in relation to this report.  You remember that --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you testified about it.  You pointed out to us

 4     what your position was in relation to Mr. Perisic, to Mr. Mladic.

 5             Could we move to the last page of this document.

 6             Mr. Mrksic, I think you also testified that the signature under

 7     this document is yours.  And, finally, you testified that you had seen

 8     this document only here for the first time, I think you said.

 9             Now, do you have an explanation, because you said something, this

10     is not the type of document -- who would have drafted it -- one second,

11     please.  It should be mention now.  How could it be that, on the one

12     side, you recognise your own signature; and at the same time you say, "I

13     see it in court for the first time"?  I have trouble reconciling those

14     answers.

15        A.   Well, I'm confused, Mr. President.  My officers knew of this, and

16     I was -- my officers were not just lower-level officers.  They were the

17     chief of the operations - he was a general - and colonels.  They all knew

18     that they should not put before me a document of this type for me to

19     sign, where you can't see where -- who the document was typed by, who it

20     was drafted by, whom it was sent to, where it was filed.  In my life,

21     I've never seen anything like this.  From when I became the Chief of

22     Staff at brigade level up until the top, I never allowed this type of

23     document to be shown to me for signing.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time -- that's what you explained

25     before, you wouldn't allow this to happen.  It appears that it either

Page 19142

 1     happened, or it's a forgery, or whatever, but what is for you the

 2     explanation that you say, "I see this document now for the first time;

 3     nevertheless, I recognise my signature"?  Could it be that you have been

 4     inadvertent at the time and that you just signed it without properly

 5     looking at it, or what is your explanation for it?  It's a long document.

 6        A.   The document is long, and whoever brought it to me would know

 7     that I wouldn't sign this, because I would first look at the left-hand

 8     side of the document and then I would read the rest.  But how this was

 9     done technically and how a signature could actually be reprinted, I don't

10     know.  But I do recognise the content, and it's strange to me that a

11     document of this importance, that I would send it to the chief of the

12     Main Staff without such indications on the document.  Either I have gone

13     off my mind or somebody else has.  But as a matter of course, I did not

14     allow this.  I was an officer of the Main Staff, so there would have to

15     be also the principle where a document had to have a brief description so

16     I wouldn't have to read the entire document.  This was actually

17     introduced into practice by General -- by Generals Mamula and Kadijevic,

18     that that was the proper procedure.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But to summarise, you say whether someone cheated or

20     "whether I have been inadvertent," you do not know.  It's your signature,

21     and, nevertheless, you have no recollection to have seen it at the time,

22     and your recollection is you first saw it in court?

23        A.   That's correct, yes.  And, of course, a signature can be copied

24     onto any piece of paper.  It can easily be done nowadays.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it can.  But you do not exclude for the

Page 19143

 1     possibility that you signed it and not sufficiently --

 2        A.   No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we then next move to P480.  Perhaps it could

 4     be taken from the screen a second.  Could we take it from the screen one

 5     second.

 6             Mr. Mrksic, you testified in quite some detail as to orders for

 7     evacuating the population of certain areas, how that decision was reached

 8     and how that order was sent to those who had to implement it.  Could you

 9     tell us, was this order, was this distributed among the population in any

10     way directly?

11        A.   No.  As it says, the order was sent to civilian structures of

12     municipalities and it wasn't sent to the population at large.  There was

13     no direct address by the president of the republic to the people.

14     Subsequently, my mother told me that they had been disseminating leaflets

15     to the effect that we had been dissolved, killed, et cetera, et cetera.

16     I saw it just for a moment before you took it off the screen here.  That

17     was part of the propaganda.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You said flyers -- and I'm now referring to your

19     testimony, not necessarily in relation to what was just on the screen.

20     You said, during your testimony, flyers were being thrown around.  Could

21     you explain what you referred to at that moment when you gave this

22     testimony?  What flyers were you talking about?

23        A.   It was printed material with instructions ostensibly on my

24     behalf.  They were issued by someone from the staff or the republic

25     itself.  It was an old system dating back to World War II, when

Page 19144

 1     television and mass media were not as developed as they were today.

 2     That's what they resorted to as an option, and they were distributed --

 3     thrown around, that is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:

 5             "... ostensibly on my behalf.  They were issued to someone from

 6     the staff or the republic itself."

 7             Did you mean to say that the system was such that they would be

 8     issued by someone or whether that happened in this specific case?

 9        A.   No, you misunderstood me.  It was probably the propaganda

10     machinery of the Main Staff of Croatia or some other propaganda system

11     that they had.  They issued such flyers and instructions on our behalf,

12     not that someone would be betraying me.  That would be difficult without

13     me noticing it, and of course they would have to have a reason.  I had

14     good officers, and nobody proved to be traitors.  Perhaps they were --

15     there were collaborators with the enemy side among them that I wasn't

16     aware of, but they also had some of ours on their side.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us whether you are aware of this

18     evacuation order to be broadcasted; radio, television?  Are you aware of

19     any such broadcasting of the evacuation order that apparently was reached

20     on the afternoon of the 4th of August?

21        A.   Yes, that's when it was taken, and at around 5.00 or 6.00 p.m. it

22     was distributed to the municipalities in Dalmatia.  That's as far as it

23     went.  It didn't go to the areas of Luka -- Lika, Kordun, and Banija.

24     Now, whether this was broadcast by some faked TV station or not, I

25     couldn't tell you, because I didn't watch TV.  I looked out of the

Page 19145

 1     window, observing the shelling of Knin, and I was awaiting reports from

 2     my subordinates.  And in the meeting, I had a meeting with the Lika and

 3     Dalmatia Corps to see what was to be done next, once such a decision on

 4     the withdrawal was taken.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, you talked about TV, not about radio.

 6     Did you -- apparently not yourself, but did you hear anyone telling you

 7     that they heard this evacuation order to be distributed by radio

 8     broadcast?

 9        A.   I didn't hear that.  Kosta Novakovic, the commissar -- or,

10     rather, he was assistant for moral guidance and information.  He had

11     direct control over the media outlets.  He did not have such an approval

12     for this to be made public, because then third parties, including the

13     enemy, could have heard it and abused the information in such a way that

14     they would launch an all-out attack.  We didn't go public with it.  It

15     wouldn't have been natural for such an order to be made public.  Still, I

16     can't make any assertions, because I didn't listen to the radio and I

17     didn't watch TV.  According to my understanding of the commander and the

18     Presidency, this was supposed to be done in a covert manner.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now we go back to P480.

20             First question to you:  Have you seen this document before?

21        A.   No.  This is the first time.  Thank you for showing it to me.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever give an order as presented in this

23     document?

24        A.   No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  When you earlier talked about flyers, this document,

Page 19146

 1     does say it is to be distributed by leaflet, is this the type of document

 2     you had in mind or --

 3        A.   Under "flyers," I mean pieces of paper containing instructions

 4     being thrown out of aircraft.  This is what is implied by the term

 5     "flyer."  A flyer would not be understood to be the sort of material that

 6     would be distributed by hand.  In that case, you would talk about secret

 7     dispatches.  A flyer is a public document which is disseminated by air.

 8     And when you say fake flyers or flyers for propaganda purposes, then it

 9     is clear what is meant by that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that you had not seen this document

11     before.  Had you heard about this document to exist and being

12     distributed -- for it to be distributed?

13        A.   I heard that flyers were being thrown.  I heard it from civilians

14     who had pulled out across Dvor na Uni into Republika Srpska.  Whenever I

15     saw civilians, they would point at me and say, There is the commander,

16     it's not true that he's dead.  So this is obviously something that the

17     population was informed of and something that the population believed; in

18     other words, that I had been killed.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

20             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further

21     questions, Mr. Misetic?

22             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             If we could go, Mr. Registrar, to Exhibit D106, please.

24                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Misetic:

25        Q.   Now, General, your answers to the Judge's questions about whether

Page 19147

 1     this was broadcast to the public, D106, I'm taking you back to your

 2     interview with Radio Belgrade on the 4th of August, 2130.  And in your

 3     first paragraph of your first answer, you say:

 4             "The aggression which commenced at 0500 hours lasted until the

 5     nightfall.  At the present, all combat activities in the area of Knin

 6     have ceased.  Knin is engulfed by the dark, evacuation of the population

 7     is ongoing, enemy forces reached at four to six kilometres from the city

 8     of Knin."

 9             If we go down a few paragraphs to that long paragraph that says:

10     "HV was successful on the direction ..."  Towards the middle, you say:

11             "Presently, we are engaged in the evacuation of the population

12     from Dalmatia, to prevent them from falling captive, because Knin and the

13     communications leading from Knin are in danger."

14             Now, in your answer to Judge Orie, you said that you thought that

15     this was a covert operation to evacuate.  Could you explain to the Court

16     why you were on the radio on the evening of the 4th, however, speaking

17     about the fact that you were in the process of evacuating the civilian

18     population?

19        A.   If it was I who spoke here, and I don't remember, I never spoke

20     to journalists.  Perhaps the individual didn't introduce himself as a

21     journalist.  I don't recall ever saying something that it would

22     subsequently be broadcast by Radio Belgrade.  I don't recall giving any

23     interviews.  I am reputed to be a person who does not give interviews.

24     That's why I find it strange that I should have given an interview to

25     anyone.  Perhaps I spoke to someone on the phone without realising that

Page 19148

 1     the person would misuse what I said for their purposes.  And had a

 2     journalist told me that he was seeking an interview from me, I would not

 3     have given it.

 4        Q.   Well, let me now draw your attention to Exhibit D1516, page 2,

 5     please.  And if we go to page 2, please.

 6             Now, this is General Kovacevic's report again.  Now,

 7     General Kovacevic, at paragraph 6, the second paragraph of number 6,

 8     says:

 9             "In the course of the 4th of August, the RSK government issued a

10     public statement, calling the entire population in the endangered areas

11     to evacuate, which caused a chaos within the units and their dispersion,

12     because ..."

13             Do you see that, General?  It's on the next page.  I'm sorry,

14     it's on the next page for you in the B/C/S.

15        A.   I don't see that, no.

16        Q.   It says -- sorry, it's on the previous page, on the bottom, I

17     guess.

18             If we could scroll up, please, if we could scroll up.  There we

19     go, right at the top:

20             "In the course of the 4th of August, the RSK government issued a

21     public statement calling the entire population in the endangered areas to

22     evacuate, which caused a chaos within the units and their dispersion,

23     because the soldiers started leaving in order to go home and help their

24     families with the evacuation."


Page 19149

 1             Mr. Registrar, if we could now go to Exhibit D928, at page 23,

 2     please.  Now, I believe this is page 36 in the B/C/S.  If we could go one

 3     back, please, in the B/C/S.  I'm sorry, if we could go to page 26.  There

 4     we go.  In the middle of the page in the B/C/S.

 5             Now, General Sekulic's book says:

 6             "The decision of the Supreme Defence Council was announced to the

 7     public at 2000 hours on 4 August.  It went to the people and through

 8     UNPROFOR to the Croatian Army and Tudjman's state.  It reads as follows:"

 9             And then it proceeds to quote the announcement.

10             The next paragraph says:

11             "The Supreme Defence Council appeals to the Krajina citizens,

12     where evacuation is being organised, not to undertake individual actions

13     or be fooled by the Croatian propaganda.  The citizens may contact

14     Civilian Protection officers for any information."

15             Now, General, these passages, do you know what type of

16     announcement, if any, General Kovacevic is referring to and

17     General Sekulic is referring to?

18        A.   I don't know about that.  You'll have to ask them about it.  I

19     didn't read the book.  Were there any announcements, or through whom?

20     Well, they did state here that they shouldn't be fooled by the propaganda

21     and that they should apply to their Civilian Protection officers in their

22     localities, to avoid panic, because panic was widespread.  Are the cars

23     going to start up, do they have enough fuel, et cetera?  We knew that

24     where such a decision could be taken, a grave situation may arise.  I

25     could not have taken something of the sort upon myself.  That's why the

Page 19150

 1     Supreme Council had to decide about it.  Who could provide us with any

 2     guarantees if we are in an encirclement and in a position where we had to

 3     fight in an encirclement, whilst cut off from anywhere else?  You see

 4     that the same rules of engagements that General Tudjman was taught by,

 5     that a force needs to be designated in every village to protect the

 6     population, and such a commander who is in charge of the town command is

 7     superior to any other commander who might wish to transit that particular

 8     area, because what one has to ensure is that the population is not

 9     harmed.  That's something I was aware of in Eastern Slavonia.

10             Had I known that you had all these various weapons systems and

11     had I known that you were trained by the Americans, my idea was that --

12     and they knew, of course, that the children had to be distributed with

13     chocolate, et cetera, that they had to be adjusted or adapted to the idea

14     of coexistence, that was what I aimed at.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic, apart from answering the question, you

16     gave your personal views and messages to us as well, which are not

17     directly relevant in answer to the question.

18             Mr. Misetic.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

20        Q.   Let me just follow up on your answer, General.  You talk about --

21        A.   What I'd like to know is:  Can that be found somewhere?

22        Q.   Well, if you tell me what it is I should be looking for, I'll

23     look for it, and that's why I'm following up here.

24             You say that -- this is at page 59, lines 4 through 10.  You see

25     the same rules of engagement that General Tudjman was taught by, that a

Page 19151

 1     force needs to be designated in every village to protect the population,

 2     and such a commander who is in charge of the town command is superior to

 3     any other commander who might wish to transit that particular area,

 4     because what one has to ensure is that the population is not harmed.

 5             Now, I'm interested -- can you, first, explain what you're

 6     referring to about a commander in every village?

 7             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I'm going to object to this.  The

 8     Court's questions clearly related to the dissemination of a piece of

 9     information.  We're now getting into areas which the Court did not get

10     into.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness gave an answer, and as I said

13     before --

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I may just respond to that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

16             MR. MISETIC:  I'm asking this only because the Court raised an

17     issue about dissemination of information, and I believe that the

18     witness's answer was given in that context.  And to avoid any confusion,

19     the witness should clarify the chain and how certain information may have

20     been distributed, and that's the only purpose of my question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, we've had testimony from the witness

23     about what he knows about how this information was disseminated.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- sometimes putting the question to the

25     witness takes less time than to -- if it is already in evidence, then

Page 19152

 1     there's no problem.  If it adds anything that could assist the Chamber,

 2     you may put the question.  But, at the same time, the last answer, where,

 3     after two lines you had the answer already, you let the witness go for

 4     another 15 lines, so if you could keep it focused.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 6        Q.   General, you heard what my question was, which was your reference

 7     to commanders in every village, and in order to cut this short:  Were you

 8     suggesting that the commanders in the village would have received the

 9     information about the evacuation order?

10        A.   No, sir, you misinterpreted my entire intervention.

11             What I was saying was that had been in the shoes of the general

12     here who launched the attack, he was duty-bound, for Strmica and for all

13     the other places, to designate a commander and to make sure that the

14     local population cooperated with the commander and was protective of him,

15     so that it could not be possible for a situation to arise where you would

16     have a policeman entering the village and doing whatever he wanted at

17     will.  This is something that we were taught in the combat rules of the

18     JNA, which you inherited and which President Tudjman studied perhaps even

19     more than I did, and it should have been applied, not to speak of the

20     American rules which the gentlemen were taught about at the courses they

21     attended.  They went even further than the JNA doctrine.  That's what I

22     meant.  You misunderstood me.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I understood your earlier answer as a bit on the

25     abstract level as well.  You are not seeking to enter that area.  The

Page 19153

 1     witness gave a rather abstract answer, where I was primarily interested

 2     in what had happened.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  That's what I was interested in, too,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but by abstract answers, you might not find

 6     out.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions?  If not ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mrksic --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're nearing the end?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I can only say we, and I'm looking to everyone

13     in the courtroom, we made it in time.

14             Mr. Mrksic, usually I thank witnesses for coming a far way to

15     this courtroom.  There's no need to do that.  Nevertheless, I would like

16     to thank you very much that you came to this courtroom and that you had

17     answered I wouldn't add "at length," but you've answered --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More than necessary.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the questions that were put to you

20     by the parties and that were put to you by the Bench.  Thank you very

21     much, and I'll ask you now to be escorted out of the courtroom.

22             Mr. Domazet --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I thank you?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Domazet, I'd like to thank you also for being

25     available at such short notice, and being able to meet the concerns

Page 19154

 1     Mr. Mrksic had at the time.  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Mrksic, you'd like to add something.  Short; no messages.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no messages.

 4             I would like to thank you for your consideration.  You realise

 5     the situation I was in.  This was my first public appearance.  I never

 6     gave any testimonies or interviews for TV or radio.  And to thank

 7     Mr. Misetic, Defence counsel for Gotovina, who was insistent upon

 8     ensuring my appearance here.  I managed to relieve myself of some

 9     burdens; not of all of them.  And I would like to thank the Defence for

10     raising certain interesting matters related to security, which will only

11     be discussed; to the Prosecutor, who was quite brief.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm aware that the Chamber still has to decide

15     on D1508, which is MFI'd at this moment.

16             Mr. Mikulicic, there was one document that you have tendered, but

17     I think it's not assigned a number yet.  It was the document in which

18     some allegations were had as to involvement in smuggling, et cetera.

19     Could you please repeat the ID number of that document so that it can

20     be --

21             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is a document 65 ter

22     3D00126.

23             And, Your Honour, with your permission, while I'm on my feet, I

24     would like to draw your attention to the fact that the document already

25     tendered into the evidence, and that is D1495, is referring to the

Page 19155

 1     documents that I was intending to tender, and it is my belief that for

 2     the sake of complicity, both documents should be entered into the

 3     evidence, while the one is for the moment and the other one is pending.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You said "complicity."  I take it for completeness

 6     sake, you wanted to refer to --

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  That was my mistake.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will look at that, because there was

 9     objection against, if I could call it, the smuggling document, isn't it,

10     Mr. Russo, as irrelevant?  And the witness denied any of its content.

11     Let me just have a look.

12             The Chamber will, in due course, decide on these exhibits, but

13     first a number has to be assigned to 3D00126.  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1531, marked

15     for identification.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17             We'll have a break.  Is the Gotovina Defence ready to call its

18     next witness?

19             Mr. Misetic, I have some concerns about the days to come, because

20     the next witness has been scheduled for one and a half hours in-chief,

21     although there's a rather lengthy 92 ter statement.  Do you have any

22     other witnesses ready before Friday?

23             MR. MISETIC:  Unfortunately, we do not, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll, nevertheless, ask whether there is already at

25     this moment any estimate of how much time the other Defence teams would

Page 19156

 1     need for the examination of the witness which will appear after the

 2     break.

 3             MR. KAY:  It depends what happens in direct examination, but at

 4     the moment, I have no questions.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  It is the very same position for the Markac

 7     Defence as well.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo -- or should I address Ms. Mahindaratne?

 9             Ms. Mahindaratne.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I believe I estimate about four

11     hours of cross-examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That means it would take us most likely into

13     Thursday.  Thank you for that information.

14             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, before the Chamber will invite you to

18     call your next witness, I first would like to inform the parties that

19     Monday we'll not be sitting.  That was already announced as the most

20     likely outcome, but that's now confirmed.

21             The Chamber received, for the next witness, the 92 ter statement,

22     and if there's anything problematic with the translation, we'd like to be

23     informed about it early, because it's a lot of double work for us to

24     first try to find our way through a rather problematic document and then

25     to find out that apparently a lot of work was already done at the same

Page 19157

 1     time to get a better copy.

 2             Then the Chamber was not informed about any intention to apply

 3     for protective measures for the next witness.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  That is correct, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the

 6     witness into the courtroom.

 7             Is it true that the revised translation has not yet been filed

 8     and up-loaded and is still sent through e-mail?

 9             MR. MISETIC:  It has been up-loaded into e-court and sent through

10     e-mail.  It has not been filed.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that it would be better to have it

12     filed, because if there is a translation filed, then I think if there's a

13     new translation, it should be filed as well.

14             MR. MISETIC:  We will do that this afternoon, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Milas.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

20     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the

21     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text is now

22     handed out to you by Madam Usher.  May I invite you to make the solemn

23     declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 19158

 1                           WITNESS:  BORIS MILAS

 2                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Milas.  Please be seated.

 4             Mr. Milas, you'll first be examined by Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic

 5     is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Misetic:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Milas.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Would you please state your full name for the record?

12        A.   Boris Milas.

13        Q.   And could you tell us what your current occupation is?

14        A.   I am an officer with the Croatian Armed Forces.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 1D2699

16     on the screen, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Milas, do you recall giving two statements to members of the

18     Defence of Ante Gotovina?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   And looking on your screen, is that your signature on the bottom

21     of the first page?

22        A.   Correct, that is my signature.

23        Q.   And do you recall being interviewed on three occasions: first,

24     from the 19th to the 23rd of January, 2009; the 3rd through the 6th of

25     February, 2009; and the 19th of May, 2009, by members of the Gotovina

Page 19159

 1     Defence?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And do you recall signing a statement on the 19th of May, 2009?

 4        A.   Exactly.

 5        Q.   Have you had a chance to review the statement that is on the

 6     screen?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Does that statement accurately reflect what you told members of

 9     the Gotovina Defence?

10        A.   It does reflect accurately what I said.

11        Q.   At the time you gave this statement, did you give it to the best

12     of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?

13        A.   In accordance with the truth, by all means, and to the best of my

14     knowledge as well.

15        Q.   If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were

16     asked prior to signing the witness statement that's on the screen, would

17     you provide the same answers today in court as you did to the questions

18     that were posed to you during the course of the interview that led to

19     that statement?

20        A.   Yes, I would provide the same answers; maybe not word for word,

21     but in essence the same answers.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this statement be marked,

23     and I tender it into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

Page 19160

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1532.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D1532 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit 1D2744 on

 6     the screen, please.

 7        Q.   Mr. Milas, do you recall meeting with members of the Gotovina

 8     Defence on the 20th and 21st of June, 2009?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And do you recall signing a statement -- a supplemental statement

11     on the 22nd of June, 2009?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Now, does this statement reflect, accurately reflect what you

14     told members of the Gotovina Defence on the 20th and 21st of June, 2009?

15        A.   It reflects exactly what I said.

16        Q.   At the time you gave this statement, did you give it to the best

17     of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?

18        A.   To the best of my knowledge and certainly true.

19        Q.   If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were

20     asked on the 20th and 21st of June, 2009, would you provide the same

21     answers in court today as you did in the statement that's on the screen?

22        A.   Yes, I would provide the same answers.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that 1D2744 be marked, and I

24     tender it into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

Page 19161

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I have an objection to two

 2     specific paragraphs of this statement.  And may I be permitted to make my

 3     submissions?  And the witness should not be privy to what I have to say,

 4     so --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's first ask the witness.

 6             Mr. Milas, do you speak and/or understand the English language?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot speak so well to allow me

 8     to follow the proceedings without help.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it seems that you apparently have a basic

10     knowledge of the English language?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't have occasion to

12     speak it very frequently, so I'm not -- I don't have a very large

13     vocabulary.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Under those circumstances, since

15     Ms. Mahindaratne would like to raise a matter which should be raised in

16     such a way that the witness would not hear it, which you'll understand,

17     as a lawyer, I have to ask you to leave the courtroom for a while so that

18     we can hear what Ms. Mahindaratne wants to raise.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Mr. President, I object to paragraph 3 of this supplementary

23     statement, particularly the second part of the -- of paragraph 3.  There,

24     the witness draws a legal conclusion.  He makes an assessment that the

25     number of burnt houses in Sector South was not widespread, and that, I

Page 19162

 1     believe, is a matter for the Trial Chamber, apart from which there are

 2     different facts -- different figures that have been placed before the

 3     Trial Chamber with regard to the number of houses damaged in Sector

 4     South.  So I believe in that context, paragraph 3 should not be admitted

 5     into evidence.

 6             My second objection is to paragraph -

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we take it step by step.  Could we hear from

 8     Mr. Misetic.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Starting with the last argument, Your Honour,

10     that's not an argument at all.  She can cross-examine on the number, but

11     that's no reason not to admit something into evidence.  If the witness

12     disagrees on the number or whatever Ms. Mahindaratne thinks the true

13     numbers are, she is certainly free to use her time in cross-examination

14     to put it to him, but that's not a bar to admission.

15             Moreover --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, there are two elements in this.  Yes,

17     let me first let you finish.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Moreover, the issue about the legal conclusion,

19     quite frankly, I'm surprised at that comment, because then we will --

20     Mr. Kehoe and I will go back through every UNMO report, UNCRO report,

21     UNCIVPOL report, witness statement, about widespread and systematic that

22     was put into evidence by the Prosecution.

23             Now, the phrase "widespread and systematic," as the Court is

24     aware, has a certain legal implication to it.  This witness said he

25     didn't think it represented a widespread occurrence.  Certainly, I think

Page 19163

 1     the Prosecution is seeking to eat its cake and have it too, because --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not spend too much time on it.

 3             Ms. Mahindaratne, I think you are, from a legal point of view,

 4     from a procedural point of view, you're perfectly right.  Nevertheless,

 5     we have heard so many witnesses expressing their views, and I'm not

 6     telling you what the Chamber is going to do with these views because the

 7     Chamber, of course, primarily will focus on facts.

 8             Now, what we have here, we have the surface, 6.000 square

 9     kilometres.  I do not know whether there's any dispute among the parties

10     about that number.  You're talking about numbers.  We have a surface, and

11     then what you usually have is a population on that surface.  And then you

12     have a number of homes on which this population lives, and then you have

13     a number of homes which are burned.  And then the next question is:  When

14     they were burned, why they were burned?  If it was a result of persons

15     setting fire to those homes, who had done this?  I mean, it's clear to

16     you that the Chamber would not simply say, Oh, Mr. Milas said it was not

17     like that.  Of course, we will analyse carefully.

18             Now, we can do two things: invite Mr. Misetic to see what

19     knowledge this witness has which is at the basis of his conclusion, just

20     as many others, that, I toured the area for three days, or for five days,

21     or, I was only in the eastern part, or, I toured the whole of the area, I

22     saw five villages or 20 villages burnt.

23             Of course, what the Chamber is seeking, and Mr. Misetic is

24     certainly aware of that, is to see that if somebody gives an assessment,

25     which has both a legal connotation and an everyday meaning, whether we

Page 19164

 1     are -- have a busy schedule in this courtroom.  You could look at it from

 2     an administrative point of view, comparing it to other Chambers.  You

 3     could also say, Well, I find this rather busy, which is an everyday

 4     assessment of how you experience that.

 5             Now, what would you like us to do, to say, Strike it?  And then

 6     Mr. Misetic will then surely, I take it, go into the factual basis for

 7     such an assessment.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Well, Mr. President, I think we're confusing two

 9     things here.

10             The witness doesn't say there was no widespread or systematic

11     burning.  The issue here is he's the chief of the Crime Prevention

12     Service.  A question that certainly could be put to him is, What was your

13     impression, as chief of the service, about the scope of the problem of

14     burning?  His response is, It did not seem to me that it was a widespread

15     occurrence.  It's his subjective view, and certainly something the

16     Chamber is entitled to hear.  He's not stating as a fact that it was or

17     wasn't and that --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether it will assist or not, and if you say does

19     not lead to the conclusion, of course, that is not establishing that it

20     was not your view --

21             MR. MISETIC:  Correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But, Ms. Mahindaratne, what are we going to do with

23     that?

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I hear you, Mr. President.  I withdraw the

25     objection and --

Page 19165

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Invite Mr. Misetic to see whether there's any

 2     factual basis for his interpretation of what happened?

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That would be up to Mr. Misetic,

 4     Mr. President.  I withdraw the objection.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  I do intend to put this matter to him, but I do

 6     also want to state, Mr. President, that again what I was interested in,

 7     with that paragraph, is his explanation of what he saw, and was it a

 8     small problem or a big problem.  The fact that he uses the word

 9     "widespread" I don't think is a legally-binding conclusion on the Chamber

10     in any sense.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's -- it may be a conclusion to be drawn by

12     the Chamber, but let's -- it seems that Ms. Mahindaratne, being aware of

13     the approach the Chamber will take in respect of this kind of statement,

14     has withdrawn her objection, and you're invited -- well, you don't need

15     even to be encouraged, Mr. Misetic, but you'll pay attention to the

16     factual part of what is underlying this assessment.

17             Second?

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, in view of the approach the

19     Trial Chamber has indicated as being taken towards this type of

20     statements, I do not wish to object to the other paragraph that I said I

21     had.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, I'd like to know what caused you

23     problems.  If you just point at the paragraph, then we might well

24     understand what your problem is, and that Mr. Misetic also knows where he

25     has to --

Page 19166

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is paragraph 15, again the second part of

 2     paragraph 15, where the witness, having stated that he did not have any

 3     contact with General Gotovina, either formally or informally, goes on to

 4     speculate as to why -- what General Gotovina thought, or what was in his

 5     mind, or why he did not act in a certain way.  It is mere speculation.

 6     That was the only basis I wanted to object to that part of the paragraph.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic is certainly encouraged to verify

 8     whether it's speculation or whether there's any basis for the assessments

 9     given there.

10             Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

11             We could invite the witness to return to the courtroom.

12             Since there are no objections against admission of this

13     additional statement anymore, Mr. Registrar, the 2009 statement of

14     Mr. Milas would be number ...

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1533, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milas, we were able to resolve all outstanding

19     matters.  Mr. Misetic will now further examine you.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Mr. President, I have explained to the witness the procedure of

22     reading a summary of the evidence.  He is aware of it, and with your

23     permission I'd like to read out a summary of the evidence.  The booths

24     have been provided with a copy.

25             Witness AG-34, Boris Milas, is an officer in the

Page 19167

 1     Croatian Armed Forces.  During Operation Storm, he was the head of the

 2     Crime Prevention Service of the 72nd Military Police Battalion which

 3     operated within the Split Military District.  The witness testifies that

 4     on the day before Operation Storm began, he participated in a meeting

 5     where officials sent from the Military Police Administration in Zagreb

 6     were present.  During this meeting on the night of 3 August 1995, an

 7     order of General Mate Lausic was presented to the witness, which stated

 8     that the commanders of the 72nd and 73rd Military Police Battalions were

 9     to be subordinated to Major Ivan Juric, who was sent from Zagreb into the

10     field by General Lausic.

11             Furthermore, Captain Ante Glavan, an official from the Crime

12     Investigation Department at the Military Police Administration in Zagreb,

13     was sent from Zagreb by General Lausic, and the witness states that he,

14     the witness, was subordinated to Mr. Glavan, who in turn was subordinated

15     to Major Juric.  The witness states that both Major Juric and Mr. Glavan

16     submitted their reports directly to General Lausic and did not report to

17     General Gotovina.

18             The witness states that as the chief of the Crime Prevention

19     Service, he had neither formal nor informal contacts with

20     General Gotovina before or after Operation Storm.

21             The witness testifies that on the 12th of August, 1995,

22     General Lausic's deputy chief, Marijan Biskic, came from Zagreb and met

23     with the members of the 72nd Military Police Battalion.  Major Juric

24     reported to Brigadier Biskic that the 72nd Military Police Battalion had

25     completed all scheduled military police tasks during and after

Page 19168

 1     Operation Storm, and even more than that.  Major Juric stated that

 2     members of the 72nd Military Police Battalion needed to be commended for

 3     that.  During this meeting, Brigadier Biskic issued the tasks that the

 4     MPs were to focus on in the coming period of time.

 5             The witness testifies that as far as the work segment of the

 6     Crime Investigation Military Police is concerned, no approval was

 7     required from General Gotovina, nor did General Gotovina have to make a

 8     special request in relation to operative and criminal processing.

 9             And that concludes the summary, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

11             Please continue.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Mr. Milas, first, if you could explain to the Trial Chamber a

14     little bit about your background.  What type of police training did you

15     have before you were appointed the chief of the -- or the head of the

16     Crime Prevention Service?

17        A.   Before I joined the 72nd Military Police Battalion, I did not

18     have any experience as a military policeman or as a policeman in a

19     civilian structure, police structure.  After I joined the military

20     police, I performed some tasks in an office that was a joint office of

21     the commanders -- the then commander of the 72nd Battalion, who was more

22     involved in writing certain reports and orders.  But together with some

23     other officers of the 72nd Military Police Battalion, I also visited some

24     other relocated units of the 72nd Battalion.  That is the extent of my

25     police experience and knowledge.

Page 19169

 1             Sometime in September 1992, I believe on the 15th of September,

 2     1992, I was appointed the acting head of the Crime Prevention Service of

 3     the 72nd Military Police Battalion, and I performed those duties through

 4     the end of 1996, when I was reassigned to a -- to another unit of the

 5     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia.

 6        Q.   Did you have any training in how to conduct investigations, any

 7     sort of -- let's say prior to 1995, even after you became the acting

 8     chief, did you have any training in terms of how to conduct a criminal

 9     investigation?

10        A.   I did not undergo any training, nor any on-the-job training in

11     that sense.

12        Q.   How about the people that were subordinated to you?  Without

13     going into the details of every person, can you give us a general

14     overview about the level of training of the members of the Crime

15     Prevention Service that were beneath you in the chain?  What general

16     levels of education and police training did they have?

17        A.   There was a total of 12 officers in the Crime Prevention Service

18     when I was appointed to my -- to that post.  And of the 12, one was a

19     driver and another one was a woman, an administrative officer.  As for

20     the education and training they had undergone, these were people who

21     completed secondary education, and in some cases there were even persons

22     who just underwent crash courses for secondary education.  And one of the

23     members, one of the officers, was a lawyer by profession.  She had a

24     degree in Law.  In other words, they did not have any police education or

25     training, especially not in investigating on-site investigations and

Page 19170

 1     crime processing.

 2        Q.   Now, can you explain to the Court why the Crime Prevention

 3     Service of the 72nd Military Police Battalion did not have -- was not

 4     staffed by people with more of an education or training in police

 5     matters?

 6        A.   If you look at the composition of the military police as of its

 7     inception in 1992, some -- four and a half thousand to 5.000 staff,

 8     80 per cent of them had a secondary education.  To the best of my

 9     recollection, only a few of them had some sort of previous police

10     training before joining the police force.  Even those who had secondary

11     education, as I said a moment ago, came from different backgrounds.  Some

12     of them had completed grammar schools, and others who had completed

13     vocational schools for joiners, carpenters, salespersons, et cetera.  At

14     any rate, their education was far from what was compatible with the

15     police duties, in particular those relating to crime investigation.

16             According to the information I have, around 150 staff had an

17     associate degree or university degree education, and I'm referring to the

18     police force in Croatia overall at the time.  This was far from

19     sufficient for the duties that had to be taken care of.  However, these

20     were men who had left Croatian brigades and joined the police and tried

21     to do their best in discharging their duties.

22             The chief of the Military Police Administration and his

23     assistants intended to develop various levels of education and training

24     over time in order to raise the level of their skills to the satisfactory

25     level.

Page 19171

 1        Q.   Do you know -- first, if you could tell us whether you know.  Do

 2     you know why more people weren't taken from, for example, the civilian

 3     police and brought into the military police?

 4        A.   Well, it was up to someone to take a decision to that effect.

 5     The individuals I referred to came to join the military police units

 6     voluntarily.  It could not be resolved by a commander of a single MP

 7     battalion by asking that the Split-Dalmatia Police Administration second

 8     ten lawyers or ten economists to join the police force.  These were

 9     volunteers who -- most of whom had previously been members of the Guards

10     Brigades as of the month of June 1991.

11        Q.   Now, turning your attention to the composition of the Crime

12     Prevention Service of the 72nd Military Police Battalion, and turning

13     your attention to paragraph 1 of your supplemental statement, which is

14     D1533, can you explain to the Court, on the 3rd of August, 1995, how many

15     members of the Crime Prevention Service of the 72nd Military Police

16     Battalion did you have at your disposal for the purpose of conducting

17     criminal investigations?

18        A.   According to the establishment of what had by that time been

19     remained [as interpreted] into the Crime Prevention police, there were 62

20     members who -- or, rather, 65 members were envisaged under the staffing

21     table, but in reality there was 62 of them.  Out of these 62, some 10

22     staff members had administrative jobs, and some 10 of them were forensic

23     officers.  I'm referring to all the structural units of the 72nd

24     Battalion; in other words, Zadar, Sibenik, Sinj, and Dubrovnik companies,

25     as well as the Imotski and Metkovic Platoons.  Around exactly 42 staff

Page 19172

 1     members could be engaged in the conduct of operative criminal

 2     investigation which could fall under the jurisdiction of the military

 3     courts, and, by the same token, under the jurisdiction of the Military

 4     Police Crime Investigation Service.

 5        Q.   Now, of those 42, can you tell us how many of those 42 could be

 6     deployed for use in the areas of what was the former Krajina?

 7        A.   At the time, seven individuals were deployed there, because we

 8     had instructions whereby we should set aside a proportional number from

 9     the Crime Investigation Service to Knin, since some of the members were

10     assigned to the newly-established Benkovci [phoen] Platoon from the Zadar

11     company.  And definitely in the towns of Dubrovnik and Split a certain

12     number of police officers had to be sent to perform military police

13     duties in respect of those men who were then in the area.  So the seven

14     individuals were supposed to cover four shifts, and they were assigned to

15     the joint or combined company in Knin.

16        Q.   Let me ask you this question:  Could you have taken all of the

17     men from the Crime Prevention Service that were stationed in Dubrovnik,

18     Split, Imotski and Sinj and moved them into the newly-liberated areas?

19        A.   It was not possible to do that because the orders of the Military

20     Police Administration did not specify numbers.  But whenever such orders

21     are issued, they refer to a proportionate number.  If we have a company

22     numbering 100 men, then roughly 7 members should be assigned who fall

23     under the Crime Section.  However, if all the members from Dubrovnik and

24     all those from Split had been assigned to Knin, then there would be

25     nobody left to investigate crimes and disorderly conduct in towns.  And,

Page 19173

 1     of course, it was a well-known fact that the army was predominantly

 2     present in various towns, once they were pulled out from the

 3     battle-front.  This became evident in the subsequent reports which

 4     discussed the perpetration of crimes.

 5             My apologies.  When we assigned these officers, none of the

 6     leadership, meaning the chief of the Military Police Administration or

 7     the chief of the Crime Investigation Service, asked that we should assign

 8     more officers to the area of Knin.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Can you just tell the Court, very briefly, in August of

10     1995, after Operation Storm, was there a front-line in the Dubrovnik

11     area, in the southern part of Dalmatia?

12        A.   Of course there was.  And there existed a danger, as was the case

13     in the Eastern Sector, and that's why the 68th Military Police Battalion

14     was not deployed in the area where Operation Storm was carried out,

15     precisely because of the assessment that there might be combat activities

16     in Dubrovnik area and eastern area in response to the actions launched by

17     the Croatian Army.

18        Q.   In addition to HV being in the towns, were HV forces actually

19     deployed in the Dubrovnik area after Operation Storm?

20        A.   Yes, they were.

21        Q.   Now, let's turn your attention to the 3rd of August.  And you

22     speak of this in your -- both of your statements, but there was a meeting

23     which you reference on the evening of the 3rd of August at which

24     Major Juric and Mr. Glavan were present.  Can you please explain to the

25     Court, in your own words, first, where was that meeting?

Page 19174

 1        A.   The meeting was held in the forward command post -- relocated

 2     command post of the 72nd MP Battalion, in the locality --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name of the

 4     place.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... in the late evening hours,

 6     Major Juric, Ante Glavan, and Messrs. Maduna and Cicvaric, who were also

 7     members of the Military Police Administration came to the meeting, since

 8     the commander of the 72nd Battalion asked that a working meeting be held.

 9     His assistants were present there, as well as the representative of the

10     administration that I mentioned, and myself.

11             The commander of the 72nd Battalion introduced Major Ivan Juric

12     to everyone, whereupon he presented us with the order by General Lausic

13     of the 2nd of August, 1995, based on which he and the team from the

14     administration were assigned to the 72nd Battalion, because the task

15     given to Major Ivan Juric was that he should be superior to the commander

16     of the 72nd and 73rd MP Battalions, but only for the elements of the

17     forces which participated in the activities involving the 72nd Battalion.

18     If I remember correctly, he was also charged with performing all the

19     military police tasks.  And under that same order, he was duty-bound to

20     coordinate with commanders of the Croatian Army in the area of activity,

21     and he was empowered to take all and any measures against commanders if

22     the military police tasks would not be carried out as envisaged under the

23     rules and under the order.  In other words, I understood Major Ivan Juric

24     to be the commander of the 72nd Battalion and to also be the commander of

25     those elements of the 73rd Battalion which had at the time been attached

Page 19175

 1     to the 72nd.

 2             Captain Ante Glavan was the assistant chief of the General Crime

 3     Department of the Military Police Administration, and in relation to the

 4     Crime Investigation Police of the 72nd Battalion, he was supposed to

 5     coordinate all the activities and tasks of the Crime Investigation

 6     Military Police and to report to Ivan Juric on all these activities, as

 7     well as the representative of the Department of the Criminal

 8     Investigation Police, who was at the time Captain --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

10             MR. MISETIC:

11        Q.   Mr. Milas, first we have to catch two names now.  First, would

12     you please repeat the name of the place where this meeting took place?

13        A.   Gornji Rujani.  It's the IZM.  The order said "Sajkovici," but

14     that's very close by, and it's called Gornji Rujani, and that was the

15     forward command post.  That's how I wrote it down.  I may have made a

16     mistake, but I don't think so.

17        Q.   The second thing we need to clarify is the last part of your

18     answer, which was that Mr. Glavan was supposed to coordinate all the

19     activities and tasks of the Crime Investigation Military Police and to

20     report to Ivan Juric on all these activities, as well as the

21     representative of -- can you repeat the rest of that, including providing

22     us the name?

23        A.   Ante Glavan, to the chief of the Crime Investigation Police of

24     the MP Administration, Spomenko Eljuga, he was the one that Ante Glavan

25     submitted reports to on a daily basis.

Page 19176

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I'm looking at the clock.

 2             Mr. Milas, we have to adjourn for the day.  The courtroom is

 3     needed for other cases later today.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow

 4     morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.

 5             But I'd first like to instruct you that you should not speak with

 6     anyone about your testimony, whether the testimony already given today or

 7     whether the testimony still to be given tomorrow or perhaps even the day

 8     after tomorrow.  Is that clear to you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may say something before

11     the witness leaves court.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  The Prosecution wish to hand over some

14     documentation to the witness, simply because it would expedite the

15     examining process tomorrow, particularly cross-examination.  We could not

16     hand the documents to the witness.  In fact, the initial intimated that

17     he could not communicate with us, but the Witnesses and Victim unit could

18     not trace him yesterday to give the documentation.  So with your

19     permission, if the documents could be handed over to the witness.  And

20     it's documents that the witness is familiar with and which have been

21     disclosed to the Defence, so it's generally --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you mean disclosed to the Defence in the context

23     of your intended cross-examination or in general terms?

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  In the context of the examination,

25     Mr. President.  Let me explain what they are.

Page 19177

 1             These are crime registers of the three military police companies,

 2     Knin, Zadar and Sibenik, and the corresponding crime reports, as well as

 3     three charts which were specifically disclosed to the Defence in the

 4     context of the cross-examination of this witness.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I'm not sure -- cross-examination

 6     hasn't started of this witness, so I'm not --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but this is, of course, a bit of an

 8     extraordinary situation, where usually the cross-examining party releases

 9     to the party that has called the witness at the time the

10     examination-in-chief has been finished, and of course we have major

11     portions of the evidence of the witness already available as 92 ter

12     statement.  So I could imagine that where the Prosecution here is seeking

13     to give documents to the witness, that they had already at an earlier

14     stage than usual already informed the Defence on what material they

15     intended to use during cross-examination.

16             MR. MISETIC:  That is not the case, Mr. President.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  In fact, three charts were

18     sent to the Defence last week, with an e-mail saying that those charts

19     would be used in relation to this witness.  It was done -- it was a

20     courtesy copy which was sent so the Defence would have ample time to

21     study the charts vis-a-vis the source material.  I could perhaps give you

22     the exact date when it was disclosed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. KAY:  Can I add something here, Your Honour, because we've

25     been concerned, what happened.

Page 19178

 1             The materials my learned friend refers to were disclosed on the

 2     29th of May, untranslated registers, under Rules 66 and Rule 68.  I was

 3     wondering when those materials came into the hands of the Prosecution,

 4     because I personally would have liked to have used them in

 5     cross-examination of their witnesses, and I've had my own translation

 6     team deal with matters for me in respect of them.  And now the

 7     Prosecution is seeking to put those materials, which were not translated

 8     for the Defence, we were not told when they came into their possession,

 9     and seeking to put them into the hands of this witness to facilitate

10     their cross-examination.  That may be a good thing, but I have been

11     concerned about the practice of disclosure.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It seems, Ms. Mahindaratne, that the issue was

13     far wider, at least that's what I understand from Mr. Kay.

14             Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  As far as I'm able to research right now, the

16     Prosecution is making either 66(B) disclosures or a disclosure that had

17     no reference to any Rule.  And I'm reading the e-mail, and it just says:

18             "The attached documents are hereby disclosed to you in relation

19     to Witness Milas."

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's correct, that's what I was referring

21     to, and that was a courtesy copy that was sent.  It was not a disclosure

22     under Rule 66 nor 68.  This was just sent in advance so the Defence would

23     have ample time to study the charts.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Has this material been disclosed at any earlier

25     stage, not in relation to Mr. Milas?

Page 19179

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may explain what these

 2     charts are.

 3             These are charts produced by the OTP which are just a

 4     reproduction of data taken from source material, which are crime

 5     registers, which in fact are in evidence, which have been assigned an

 6     exhibit number.  So Mr. Kay is obviously referring to some other

 7     registers and crime reports, most of which are already in evidence.  All

 8     the Prosecution has done is reproduce data from exhibits onto charts,

 9     just the type of charts that Mr. Kay, himself, produced in relation to

10     the organigrams; you know, the structure of the military police.  So the

11     charts are in English, and there was no issue about translation.  So

12     I think there is a miscommunication.

13             All the Prosecution wished to do was to hand the charts in

14     advance to the Defence so that the Defence would have enough time to

15     study the charts, compare them with the source material, so that we would

16     save court time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but let me first say one thing.

18             This is a matter which should not be raised at the time we are

19     supposed to adjourn, Ms. Mahindaratne.  This further would be a matter

20     which you should have discussed with the Defence teams to see to what

21     extent you could explain to them what it is, whether there would be any

22     objection against giving it to Mr. Milas.  But to start this discussion

23     exactly at 1.45 means that you expose me to heavy criticism from any

24     other Judges.

25             I suggest that you do immediately what I think you would have

Page 19180

 1     been supposed to do; that is, to further discuss the matters, because now

 2     apparently you are explaining to the Defence what it is, and the Chamber

 3     is listening carefully, but it seems to be a wider issue.

 4             If the parties cannot agree on whether or not the material could

 5     be given to Mr. Milas, the Chamber would like to be informed this

 6     afternoon, because it doesn't make much sense to wait until tomorrow,

 7     because it would miss your point if the matter were to be decided only

 8     later today.  And if need be, the Chamber, or I, as Presiding Judge,

 9     would be willing to meet with the parties.  That would not be a formal

10     part of the trial, but just a meeting to see whether I can assist the

11     parties in resolving the matter, and giving them some guidance.

12             Is that --

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- acceptable to everyone?

15             I'm also looking at the accused, because usually the Chamber does

16     not meet with the parties outside court, but I have difficulties to

17     imagine that you would oppose against such a meeting, if need be.

18             We adjourn for the day.

19             I've given you my instructions, Mr. Milas.  We'll resume

20     tomorrow, 9.00, Courtroom I.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of

23                           June, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.