Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22983

 1                           Tuesday, 13 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that you, Mr. Mikulicic, would like to

12     raise a matter.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Actually, Your Honour, it's me, thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  I had Markac Defence, but Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             Along the lines of the discussions that we had yesterday

17     regarding statements, interviews and methodology, I wanted to bring to

18     the Trial Chamber's attention two other references.  We saw the reference

19     yesterday to Mr. Jarnjak's interview.  The first reference is transcript

20     dated December 12th of 2008.  Mr. Cayley and I both raised this issue.

21     The transcript number -- page references are 13.631, beginning at line 6,

22     going to 13.634, going to line 13.  And I would note, specifically your

23     comments, Mr. President, in this particular colloquy that went on

24     regarding the use -- or regarding the methodology of interviews where you

25     said, and I can't specifically -- don't have the line because I printed

Page 22984

 1     it out on my e-mail:

 2             "And you would say you would not add the kind of things the

 3     investigator added when he did put the questions to the witness at that

 4     time, which I would not have taught him if I ever would have given a

 5     course of examination of potential witnesses."

 6             The second reference is Witness Zganjer, and that was

 7     November 12th of 2008, beginning on page 11.603.  And there was question

 8     and answer regarding investigation methodology at line 15, and the

 9     question Mr. Mikulicic asks at line 15 as part of the question is:

10             "He," meaning the investigator, "characterised them in the

11     following way:  That the interviews conducted were very poor, that they

12     were not compiled in any sort of format, that the contents of these

13     interviews did not really make a contribution or bring anything in, and

14     that you should not perceive this as criticism leveled against you,"

15     meaning the investigator was telling this to Mr. Zganjer.

16             So I just wanted to add that, Your Honours, to the discussion

17     that occurred yesterday with specific references to witnesses, dates and

18     transcripts.

19             Thank you, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

21             Mr. Misetic.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.  I guess this would be a good

23     opportunity, then, with respect to the Jarnjak interview that was shown

24     to the Chamber yesterday, we would like that admitted but not for -- as

25     substantive evidence and not for the truth of the matters asserted in the

Page 22985

 1     discussion but, rather, as indicative of methodology and techniques used

 2     in those situations, and the probative value being that -- as I have read

 3     the Limaj and Popovic decisions referenced on Friday by the Chamber, one

 4     of the factors in considering whether to admit Mr. Pasic's 2002 statement

 5     concerning the matters which he subsequently changed, but to admit those

 6     changed portions as substantive evidence, one of the factors that the

 7     Limaj and Popovic Chambers considered was the fact that the Chamber could

 8     examine the methodology used in the questioning, because both -- in both

 9     circumstances, I believe, the interviews were videotaped.  And if in fact

10     the methodology of the 2002 statement is going to be a factor in

11     consideration of admission, then we would submit that the Jarnjak video

12     is probative with respect to methodology and, therefore, we would move to

13     admit it into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I think the -- the probative value

16     of the interview of Mr. Jarnjak is so low in respect of this witness that

17     doesn't meet the threshold for admissibility.

18             It's clear from the witness's answers yesterday that the witness

19     did -- that the interview was conducted in a different manner with him

20     than it was with Mr. Jarnjak, who was interviewed as a suspect.  And in

21     particular, the witness made it clear that there was no suggestion that

22     he was involved in any wrong-doing, no suggestion that the witness was

23     involved in any planning or that others were involved in any planning

24     that the witness may not have been involved in, and in light of the

25     different types of interviews and the different way the interviews were

Page 22986

 1     conducted, I don't think the Jarnjak interview has a sufficient probative

 2     value in this regard.

 3             Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.  I believe the Prosecution's

 6     argument goes to weight.  Obviously we have different arguments.  The

 7     witness also said that he felt the questions were suggestive and leading,

 8     and felt that -- he did not feel comfortable in resisting the suggestions

 9     posed to him.  Nevertheless, this is argument between the Prosecution and

10     the Defence.  We submit that it can be argued at a later date, but with

11     respect to probative value, I believe the Jarnjak video in addition to

12     what Mr. Kuzmanovic raised this morning, which is the Zganjer situation,

13     and I believe it was Witness Turkalj, where the Chamber itself expressed

14     concerns about the techniques used by Mr. Foster, establishes a pattern

15     and that pattern may very well be relevant to the Chamber in its

16     evaluation of whether to admit the portions of the 2002 Pasic statement

17     which at issue here.

18             We would suggest under Rule 89 that it certainly has probative

19     value and there's no reason that it should be excluded.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, brief, please.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm not sure whether Mr. Misetic is suggesting

22     that the Jarnjak interview is relevant to the assessment of the evidence

23     of Mr. Zganjer or Mr. Turkalj; if he is, those interviewed were actually

24     admitted and the Chamber can see them, and there's no need to compare

25     them with any other interview.

Page 22987

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  May I just clarify, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think you tendered the interview in

 5     evidence.  Ms. Gustafson responded.  You had an opportunity to further

 6     explain, and now --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  She's asking whether I'm suggesting something.  I'd

 8     like to --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's leave it as it is.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is sufficiently informed.

12             Mr. Misetic, has the relevant portion of the interview been

13     uploaded in e-court.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I yesterday expressed some concern as where the

16     beginning it says, This is what we say and it seems that that's what you

17     are saying, which there's at least a suggestion that there has been

18     something prior to that, which is then summarised.  I do not know whether

19     that is true or not.  But I would like to know --

20             Ms. Gustafson, have you considered whether there are any other

21     portions which, if this video would be admitted into evidence, which you

22     would like to have added for context?

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I did look at it yesterday, but I

24     would need a little more time to determine exactly which pages.  If I

25     could get back to the Chamber on that, if the Chamber is inclined to

Page 22988

 1     admit this.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Then for two reasons, the uploaded video will be MFI'd.  The

 5     first reason being that the Chamber will have to consider whether or not

 6     the probative value is such as argued by Ms. Gustafson, that it's fit to

 7     be admitted.  The second one to give Ms. Gustafson some time to see

 8     whether there's any additional portion that should be added for purposes

 9     of context.

10             Mr. Registrar.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.  Let me just -- if I can assist the

12     Registrar.  It's 65 ter 1D2988.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Your Honours, that becomes

14     Exhibit D1719, marked for identification.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16             Any other matter to be raised?

17             If not, I think we were at a point that the Chamber had looked at

18     the video, has put some questions, and that you still would like to

19     continue your re-cross.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Pasic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 22989

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We will continue to hear your evidence, but I would

 2     like to remind you first that you're still bound by the solemn

 3     declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony last week.

 4             Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           WITNESS:  PETAR PASIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                      Further Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   Good morning, again, Mr. Pasic.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   I'd like to start off this morning by asking you a question

12     following up on a question asked of you by the Prosecutor.

13             You will recall yesterday you were read portions from a report by

14     the Special Rapporteur concerning an allegation that people were being

15     prevented from coming back into Croatia, and you were asked whether had

16     you any reason to question the observations of the Special Rapporteur.

17             And I'd like to call your attention, again, to Exhibit P822, and

18     that is the exhibit where the European Union Monitoring Mission reports,

19     on the 27th and 28th of October, on a meeting with you where you said

20     that 100 Serbs had in fact returned from Serbia by October 27th and that

21     the European Union mission suggests in its report that that is accurate.

22     And the report specifically says:

23             "Indeed, some people are returning."

24             If you look there at paragraph 2(a), the specific quote is:

25             "According to Mr. Pasic, more than 100 have returned from Serbia.

Page 22990

 1     The number growing every day."

 2             Then there's a comment:

 3             "Indeed, some people are returning, but only those with property

 4     secured.  Team still wait to see when an actual occupant of a house is

 5     driven out because the legal owner returns."

 6             My question to you is:  If in fact there were obstacles at the

 7     border so that people couldn't return, how did these 100 Serbs get back

 8     into the Knin area from Serbia by the 27th of October?

 9        A.   As I said yesterday, I did not sense any obstacle for the return

10     of those Serbs who had fled to return to the Republic of Croatia.  I

11     specifically say that because the Croatian government enabled those Serbs

12     who were in the Republic of Serbia to receive Croatian documents as proof

13     of their Croatian nationality, in Beli Manastir and Vukovar, and many of

14     them used that opportunity.

15        Q.   These 100 or so Serbs that had returned by the 27th of October,

16     do you know what kind of papers - meaning passports, citizenship, et

17     cetera - they had which allowed them to cross back into Croatia?

18        A.   Some received their Croatian papers immediately, while other, as

19     far as I know, came with certain refugee IDs which had been issued to

20     them in the Republic of Serbia.

21        Q.   Who -- which governmental authority issued these refugee IDs?

22        A.   It was issued by the Republic of Serbia, although I don't know

23     which authority.  It may have been the UNHCR or someone else.  I have to

24     say, though, that a number of Serbs who came back, came back in an

25     organised fashion on a bus with the UNHCR.

Page 22991

 1        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to turn your attention next to Exhibit P2648,

 2     which is Mr. Al-Alfi's report of a meeting with you in October.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Now -- yes, if we could go to the next page in the

 4     B/C/S, please.

 5        Q.   Now, throughout this report, he refers to you as the mayor.  Do

 6     you know why he's referring to you as the mayor?

 7        A.   He was probably not familiar with the term "governmental

 8     commissioner."

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, this is more than two months after your first

10     appearance in Knin and after several meetings -- at least -- I should

11     correct that.  After at least one other meeting with Mr. Al-Alfi that

12     we've seen.  Did you not, at any opportunity, explain to him that you're

13     not the mayor but the governmental commissioner for an area wider than

14     simply the town of Knin?

15        A.   I probably did not.  I didn't meet him on many occasions.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Can we go to paragraph 5 of this document, please.

18        Q.   This is -- you were asked some questions about comments made by

19     Mr. Kostovic that are referenced in paragraph 5.  What comments did

20     Mr. Kostovic make?

21        A.   As far as I knew, Mr. Kostovic, as deputy prime minister,

22     advocated the possibility of a further stay of the remaining Serbian

23     population after Operation Storm.  He was probably reacting to a separate

24     UN envoy report and that of Ms. Elisabeth Rehn.

25        Q.   Okay.  Do you know what it is that Mr. Al-Alfi could have

Page 22992

 1     believed was -- strike that question.

 2             Let me ask you about paragraph 7 of this document.

 3             There's -- he's reporting on a discussion concerning the fact

 4     that you may be changed very soon.  Are you familiar with the

 5     constitutional law on ethnic minorities which was in effect into

 6     September of 1995?

 7        A.   Partially I was.  That law was in force, and as far as I know,

 8     parts of it were being implemented; whereas, others were not.

 9        Q.   Are you aware that, in fact, that law required that, pursuant to

10     the 1991 census, the government's commissioner for the Knin area had to

11     be an ethnic Serb?

12        A.   It did not necessarily have to be a Serb.

13        Q.   Well, what about the chiefs of the Kotar-Knin police

14     administration, or the police station in Knin, did they have to be ethnic

15     Serbs under the law?

16        A.   They were Serbs, but I'm not familiar with whether the persons in

17     such positions had to be Serbs.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let me turn your attention to a different document.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Which is P2647.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, the last two questions raise an issue

21     as to the knowledge of this witness of the legislation under which he

22     functioned.  I have no clear recollection, as a matter of fact, to the

23     text of this legislation, so in order to be able to assess, could you

24     tell us, I take it that these documents are -- this legislation is in

25     evidence.

Page 22993

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, it is, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you could perhaps assist the Chamber, if

 3     you would know.  Otherwise we will try to find it.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  I don't know off the top of my head but I have

 5     asked my Case Manager to locate it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 7             MR. MISETIC:

 8        Q.   You were shown a series of documents yesterday concerning people

 9     that applied to you or General Cermak seeking to live in Knin.

10             If we look at the first three names or four names, I guess, on

11     this document, which of these people, if any, were refugees from the area

12     that were living outside of the area at the time this letter was written?

13        A.   According to the list, when I look at their last names, it is

14     perhaps only the Vujic person who may have come from Kijevo, originally;

15     whereas, the others did not hail from the area.

16        Q.   Were they refugees perhaps from other areas?

17        A.   I don't know.  Maybe.  Personally I never met them.

18        Q.   Some of the other documents in this group also discuss companies

19     wanting to move in to the area and having housing for their workers.  Is

20     that something that was common at the time, that, if companies moved into

21     the area, that they would ask to you provide housing for workers that may

22     be coming in?

23        A.   That possibility did exist and it was used.  I have to say, in

24     particular, that this was the case with the Croatian railways, as well as

25     with the various institutions of state authority; that is to say, the

Page 22994

 1     judiciary, the educational system, the police, and a letter of that kind

 2     arrived from a former factory called Sintal, which is in Oklaj.  The

 3     municipal head in Promina, whose name, I believe, was Zeljko Dzapo

 4     [phoen], asked that housing units be secured for about one or 200 workers

 5     who were supposed to initiate the production process within the company.

 6        Q.   Mr. Pasic, am I correct that you were actually a member of the

 7     housing commission that was established after Operation Storm?

 8        A.   I don't think I was.  My legal affairs assistant,

 9     Slavko Djakovic, was.  Another commission member was Silvana Dumancic,

10     who was also a lawyer.

11        Q.   Were you familiar with the work of the housing commission,

12     however, in that area?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Was the housing commission charged with making decisions as to

15     which houses could be used to house refugees pursuant to the Law on

16     Temporary Take Over of Property?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And with respect to these decisions, how many people were on the

19     commission, the housing commission?

20        A.   The housing commission was defined by a law.  The housing

21     commission was composed of the representatives of the commissioner's

22     office of the government of the Croatia, members of the secretary or,

23     rather, the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Defence, the Centre for

24     Social Welfare, and I believe that there was also a representative of the

25     Red Cross.  I may have left somebody out, but ...

Page 22995

 1        Q.   In the work of this housing commission, based on your knowledge

 2     of its work, was there a policy of trying to take away homes from Serbs,

 3     that you were aware of, and to re-populate their homes with Croats?

 4        A.   When the Law on Temporary Use of Property owned by displaced or

 5     refugeed Serbs was promulgated, that applied to both apartments and

 6     houses.  I don't have a feeling, I didn't have a feeling then, I don't

 7     have it now, that the politicians had any intention of moving in people

 8     from a certain area, in larger numbers.  Most people came of their own

 9     will, spontaneously.  And I said yesterday that some of them had to

10     arrive, because when the Serbs left Knin, in Banja Luka and some other

11     cities, the Croats were chased away by them, and they moved into their

12     houses with the words, You have my house, or my apartment, in the place

13     where I come from.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, the answer to your question that you

15     posed about the law is -- it's Exhibit D836 and an amendment is at D900.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:

18        Q.   Mr. Pasic, I want to go back now to your 2002 statement, and I'm

19     going to ask you a few questions for clarification.

20             MR. MISETIC:  This is Exhibit D1706.

21        Q.   And I'm referencing the portion that we've discussed many times,

22     which is -- that there's a portion in there that says that you believe

23     the looting and destruction that took place was planned from above.  And

24     I know that you've said that you, in fact, did not say that, but let me

25     just ask you a few questions.

Page 22996

 1             Did you ever attend any meetings of -- well, let me ask it -- a

 2     first question.

 3             What do you understand when -- when someone were -- if someone

 4     were to say "the top of the government"?  What is "the top," in your

 5     view?

 6        A.   "The top of the government" would be the president of the

 7     Republic, prime minister, and all the government ministers.

 8        Q.   Okay.  How many meetings did you attend with the president, the

 9     prime minister, or the government ministers prior to Operation Storm?

10        A.   Prior to Operation Storm, I did not attend a single meeting with

11     the prime minister; I attended a few meetings with Mr. Mate Granic, but

12     that was in 1993 or 1994.  In any case, prior to Operation Storm.  I also

13     attended one or two meetings with Mr. Ramljak, who, during the course of

14     Operation Storm, was no longer a deputy prime minister ...

15        Q.   Okay.  In your discussions with Mr. Granic or Mr. Ramljak, did

16     you ever get any impression that there was a plan to allow looting and

17     destruction to take place if, in fact, Croatia ever retook the so-called

18     Krajina?

19        A.   No, never.  And if you will allow me, I would like to clarify a

20     situation.  It concerns my meeting with Mr. Granic.

21             In 1993, humanitarian aid was sent to the Croats who resided in

22     Knin.  That aid went through a Zagreb-based company called Unikonzum.  He

23     insisted, when it came to the settlements of Potkonje and Nunic, which

24     was still -- which were still inhabited by both Croats and Serbs, he

25     insisted on the reciprocity of sending humanitarian aid.  For example,

Page 22997

 1     in -- if there were 50 Croats in Nunic, he insisted, and that's the only

 2     way humanitarian aid could be sent if humanitarian and -- aid was sent

 3     for 50 Serbs, although there may have been more of them living in the

 4     area at the time.  But the point that I'm driving home with this

 5     illustrations is the fact that the reciprocity in providing humanitarian

 6     aid to the area was respected.

 7        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of what orders were issued within the

 8     Ministry of the Interior prior to Operation Storm concerning policing in

 9     the newly liberated areas?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of any orders that were issued within

12     the Croatian Army prior to Operation Storm concerning prevention of crime

13     in the newly liberated areas?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Speaking generally, do you have any specific basis to know, based

16     on documents, conversations, or meetings that you attended, what the

17     Croatian -- the top of the Croatian leadership intended with respect to

18     crime, whether crime commission or crime prevention, in the newly

19     liberated areas, after Operation Storm?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Now, in that same paragraph on page 8, which is on B/C/S page 12

22     of your statement, after the sentence that says, "I believe that the

23     looting and destruction that took place was planned from above," it says:

24             "It was anarchy in Knin.  Only the president could have stopped

25     it.  Despite my suggestion to Cermak at one of the meetings that it

Page 22998

 1     wouldn't look good if the president saw all the destruction and burning,

 2     it was still continuing when he came to Knin."

 3             My question -- and again, Mr. Pasic, I understand your position

 4     today with respect to this paragraph, but I need to ask you this question

 5     anyway.  Can you explain the logic in this paragraph because the

 6     beginning of the paragraph says the looting and destruction you believe

 7     was planned from above, you've explained that "above" would have included

 8     the president.  Then it says:

 9             "Only the president could have stopped it," and that you said,

10     "... it wouldn't look good if the president saw all the destruction and

11     burning."

12             So my -- I -- can you help me reconcile how, on the one hand,

13     sentence 1 suggests that President Tudjman would have been involved in

14     planning the destruction and burning; and sentence 3 says that you didn't

15     think it would be a -- it would be good for the president to see the

16     destruction and burning?

17             I'm not sure I understand the logic.

18        A.   The logic is clear.  I believe that I did say that the president

19     couldn't.  However, I believe that this is a mistake.  That's why it says

20     only the president could have prevented.

21             The president could not have prevented anything.  I confirm that

22     the situation was tantamount to partial anarchy, and in one conversation

23     with Mr. Cermak, I said it wouldn't be good for the president of the

24     Republic to see smoke and fire burning -- fires burning around Knin, as

25     he was addressing the citizens of Knin.

Page 22999

 1        Q.   I'm not asking about sentence 2, about whether the president

 2     could or couldn't have stopped it.  This goes more to what actually took

 3     place at the interview in 2002, if can you recall this specific portion

 4     of the discussion you had with Mr. Foster, okay?

 5             How can it be that -- can you explain who said what, because

 6     sentence 1 suggests that President Tudjman would have been involved in

 7     planning the looting and destruction.  Sentence 3 of the same

 8     paragraph has you saying that it wouldn't look good if the president saw

 9     all the destruction and burning.

10             So who said what in the -- can you recall how this paragraph got

11     into your statement, and can you reconcile the first sentence with the

12     third sentence?

13        A.   I don't know how this was recorded, but I can't reconcile one

14     with the other.  They contradict each other.  If the president could

15     prevent looting or arson, and he didn't, because he never planned it, I

16     would not have stated that it wouldn't be good for the president to see

17     the destruction and arson or any such thing.

18        Q.   Going to page 4 of your statement.

19             MR. MISETIC:  This is B/C/S page 6.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, the last answers are puzzling me.

21             You said -- let me just ...

22             It is on the basis of contradiction that you said that you

23     confirmed, if I understand you well, that, during the interview, you said

24     that it would -- wouldn't be good for the president to see the

25     destruction and arson or any such thing.

Page 23000

 1             Is that well understood?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you -- you were referring to a certain

 4     conversation with Mr. Cermak.  Do you remember at what point in time was

 5     it when the president would come to the area; and, if so, what visit was

 6     planned which made you say this to Mr. Cermak?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had several conversations with

 8     Mr. Cermak about the situation in the liberated area.  We both expressed

 9     our dissatisfaction with some of the security issues.  I believe that

10     this was on the eve of the president's arrival on the train, when he was

11     to stop in Knin on -- on his way from Zagreb to Split.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you said that wouldn't be good for him to

13     see all that.  Was there any way to prevent him from seeing smoke and ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was very difficult to

15     prevent.  He could not see smoke, but the question was how to prevent the

16     burning of the houses.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would say there was no smoke but would -- you

18     had to prevent any burning so that the president would not be confronted

19     with any smoke and that he -- therefore, the situation should be such

20     that there was not even smoke to be seen when he would travel on this

21     train through the area.

22             Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please do not understand it that

24     way.

25             I thought that it would be good for the president not to see any

Page 23001

 1     smoke, and also that there was no arson.  He may have seen cases of

 2     arson, as he was travelling on -- on -- by train from Zagreb to Split.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to understand, then, what you are saying.

 4             You say, It would be good for him not to see it.  At the same

 5     time, you say there may have been smoke, so he would see it, unless -- I

 6     have difficulties in understanding exactly what you mean.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it should be

 8     difficult.  When I said that the president -- that it wouldn't be good

 9     for the president to see smoke, what I meant was that it would actually

10     be good if there had been no arson or smoke, irrespective of the

11     president's presence or anybody else's presence in the area.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But there was smoke and arson; so, therefore, of

13     course, it would be good if he wouldn't see it.  But since it was there,

14     just looking out of the window would have -- so I'm trying to understand

15     the gist of this remark.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gist of this is the fact that I

17     said that it would be good for the president not to see smoke and fire.

18     This also leads to something else, and that other thing is that it

19     should -- it would be good to stop and prevent the burning of abandoned

20     properties and houses.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And there was a need to stop it and to further

22     prevent the burning of abandoned property and houses, if I understand you

23     well.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 23002

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Let me just follow up, Mr. Pasic.

 4             Did you think that President Tudjman would be angry if he saw

 5     fire and smoke?

 6        A.   I supposed that he would have been dissatisfied if he knew what

 7     the real situation on the ground was, if he learned what the situation on

 8     the ground was.

 9        Q.   Well, you -- I want to make sure that we're talking about what

10     you supposed, in August 1995, when you said at the time that it wouldn't

11     be good -- it wouldn't look good if the president saw all the destruction

12     and burning.  What did -- how did you think the president -- at the time,

13     in August 1995, how did you think the president would react if he saw all

14     the destruction and burning?

15        A.   I think that he would have expressed his dissatisfaction.  I

16     believe that he would go through the government of the Republic, or

17     through the ministries to react, in order to have the situation improved.

18        Q.   When you say that the president would have reacted through the

19     ministries in order to have the situation improve, did you think at that

20     time that the president could have called for new people to be brought in

21     to -- to get the situation under control?

22        A.   I don't think that it was him but it was somebody else who did

23     that, and what was done was that, after that, I don't know when, not

24     immediately after the freedom train passed through Knin, the number of

25     the members of the Ministry of the Interior in the territory of the city

Page 23003

 1     of Knin was increased, or, rather, in the territory that fell under the

 2     jurisdiction of the commissioner of the government of the Republic of

 3     Croatia for Knin.  And also the police forces were replenished partly

 4     with officers from the county of Primorje and Gorski Kotar, and I believe

 5     that members of the Croatian MUP arrived from Varazdin county as well.

 6        Q.   Just to wrap up this issue to go back to what my original

 7     question was about this paragraph.  If, in fact, I think in August of

 8     1995, you were concerned that the president would be dissatisfied by what

 9     he saw on the ground, then, can you make any sense of the sentence in

10     that paragraph that suggests that in fact President Tudjman would have

11     been involved in planning those crimes?

12        A.   No, not at all.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, going to --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you finished with this subject?

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pasic, do I have to understand your testimony

17     that if President Tudjman would not have seen the smoke with his own

18     eyes, he would have been unaware of what happened on the ground, that he

19     not have known about the burning and that it was through his personal

20     observation that he would learn about it?

21             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, shouldn't there really be some foundation

22     for that, with respect.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, he said it would not be good if he would see

24     it, and -- let me, Mr. -- from the follow-up questions, you'll --

25             Could you please answer the question?

Page 23004

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 2             The president did not have to come to Knin personally or pass

 3     through Knin in order to become aware of the situation.  He had a lot of

 4     other ways at his disposal to get informed about the situation on the

 5     ground.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So whether he would see the smoke at that

 7     moment or not would not really change his knowledge.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that would not have

 9     changed anything.  He could have obtained information in other ways.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So seeing the smoke would not have caused his

11     dissatisfaction because it did not add substantially to his knowledge.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how he would have

13     felt, but if his feelings were like mine, then he would not have felt

14     comfortable with what was going on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Irrespective of what he saw, because you said

16     that he would have other means to know.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I start from the president's

18     letter, which was published a few days or maybe on the eve of

19     Operation Storm.  In that letter, he invited and appealed to the citizens

20     of the Serb ethnicity who were Croatian citizens to remain in his homes

21     [as interpreted], that peace and normal life was guaranteed to them.  I

22     believe that this shows that the president of the Republic did not have

23     any intention of causing the events to evolve in the way they did.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that you gained the impression that more

25     people were sent to Knin after the visit of the president, which suggests

Page 23005

 1     that you considered his personal observation to be a factor in sending

 2     more people to Knin.

 3             Is that correctly understood?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I put it quite the

 5     same way.  And if I did, that's not what I meant.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then tell me -- I'll try to find ...

 7             You said you believed that he would go through the government of

 8     the Republic or through the ministries to react, in order to have the

 9     situation improved.  And this, on the basis of an expression of

10     dissatisfaction after he would have seen the smoke.  That's at least how

11     I understood it.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I presume that the

13     president of the Republic on that day did not even see smoke.  Perhaps

14     there may have been arson elsewhere, sufficiently far away for him not to

15     be able to see it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  On what is that presumption based, Mr. Pasic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which one?  The last one?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said you presumed that the president on

19     that day did not even see smoke.

20             Are you talking about the Knin area or just the town of Knin?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he did not see drills of smoke,

22     then I had in mind the area of the town of Knin and along the railroad

23     that goes further on to Split.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And you not expect the president to see any smoke

25     close to the railway on which he was travelling?

Page 23006

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He may have, and then he may have

 2     not seen any.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you aware of any recent burning of houses close

 4     to the railway on the day the freedom train travelled through the region?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then specifically ask you whether you think

 7     that burning of houses in Grubori, just before the arrival of the freedom

 8     train, would have been visible from that train?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no way that one could see

10     Grubori from the train or from any railway station.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And the smoke from Grubori?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With difficulty, because the

13     distance is at least 10 kilometres, and the lie of land is such that it

14     makes it impossible for one to see.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:

18        Q.   Mr. Pasic, what sources of information did President Tudjman have

19     about burning and looting, specifically?

20        A.   I don't know what information he had.  I did not send him any

21     information.  I don't know who else could have warned the republican

22     president of the events in the field.

23        Q.   Then can I ask you:  How do you know what the president knew or

24     didn't know before he took the freedom train to Knin?

25        A.   I don't know what he knew before he boarded.

Page 23007

 1        Q.   My question is specifically, in your statement, with respect to

 2     this conversation where you said you told General Cermak that it wouldn't

 3     look good if the president saw all the destruction and burning, at that

 4     time, was it your belief that the president would be better informed once

 5     he got to Knin?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Then what would it matter if the president saw all the

 8     destruction and burning?  Why would you tell General Cermak it wouldn't

 9     look good if the president saw it?  If he already knows it, then who

10     cares if the president saw it or not?

11        A.   It is difficult for me to say now why I said that.  I felt the

12     need to say that it would not have been good for the president of the

13     Republic to see that, irrespective of the fact that it was likely, that

14     through, other sources, he could have been informed of the situation in

15     the field.

16        Q.   The fact of the matter is, Mr. Pasic, let me just put it to you,

17     you didn't want the president to see it because you were concerned that

18     he would have a negative reaction to seeing burning, and that's why you

19     mentioned that to General Cermak.  Correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Now, if we can go to page 4 of this statement.

22        Q.   You say, for example, you would send reports -- you talk about

23     your relationship to Mr. Mijic and Mr. Romanic.  You say you had a good

24     relationship with Mr. Mijic.

25             "I would personally send reports to Milos Mihic and Romanic, and

Page 23008

 1     after they had gone to Zvonko Gambiroza, about citizens who were abused

 2     and when crimes were reported to me.  But nothing was done about them."

 3             And then in the next paragraph:

 4             "The police coordinators who were sent down from the ministry

 5     were in control of the police.  That's why they were sent down.  Either

 6     they couldn't or wouldn't do anything about the looting, or perhaps they

 7     had been told to keep their eyes closed."

 8             Now, what is the basis -- I know, again, we keep in mind your

 9     clarifications and corrections, so I'm aware of them, Mr. Pasic.  But

10     would you have had any reason to know what a police coordinator was or

11     wasn't told to do?

12        A.   The word "coordinator" means that they had to -- a consultative

13     role in the work of the police in the town of Knin and the district of

14     Knin.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, in light of your good relationship with Mr. Mijic,

16     who is the police chief of the Knin police, and your relationship with

17     Mr. Romanic, who is the chief of police of the entire Kotar, did they

18     ever tell you that they had been told to keep their eyes closed?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   With respect to crimes that you reported to them, did they ever

21     tell you whether they were doing something about the crimes that you were

22     reporting to them?

23        A.   I think they said that it was also clear from certain earlier

24     reports that a number of perpetrators were brought in and interrogated.

25     I don't know how the rest of that procedure developed though.

Page 23009

 1        Q.   If Mr. Mijic and Mr. Romanic had encountered some sort of

 2     pressure not to investigate or prevent crime -- well, let me ask the

 3     first question.

 4             Did they ever tell you that they had received any kind of

 5     pressure to either not investigate crime that took place or not to

 6     prevent crime that might take place in the future?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did you ever have any discussions with them as to why they were

 9     having problems with the security situation on the ground?  Was there --

10     do you recall any conversations where they said, We're having trouble

11     because of a certain reason or reasons?

12        A.   I did discuss those issues with them.  The conclusion was always

13     that the area was very large with a great number of settlements, as well

14     as with many access roads, and, at the same time, that they had too few

15     policemen.

16        Q.   When did these discussions take place?

17        A.   Frequently.  We would speak in the morning, then during the

18     meetings called by them or by myself, or if we ever met in the field or

19     in the town itself.  We would always be discussing those problems.

20        Q.   The next issue is on the role of the military commanders.

21             Do you recall at any time through August or September 1995 that

22     anyone said at any of these meetings that you attended that, The problem

23     is we need to get in touch with General Gotovina to have him solve these

24     problems?

25        A.   No, never.

Page 23010

 1        Q.   Did anyone suggest going to General Cervenko or President Tudjman

 2     to ask that something be done along the military line?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   If, in fact, the problems in the area were perceived to be

 5     because the command line wasn't functioning, do you think that someone,

 6     at some point, would have said, We need it get in touch with someone at

 7     the top of the command line to see if they can fix the problem.

 8        A.   I'm not an expert to be able to assess the hierarchy and the

 9     chain of command and whether it functioned disjointedly.  The chain of

10     command is simply not an area in which I can discuss matters.

11        Q.   Mr. Pasic, at page 8 of your statement in English, which is

12     page 12 in the B/C/S, there's a sentence attributed to you that says:

13             "I was hoping that I would be able to help both Croats and Serbs,

14     but that was made impossible by the policies and those in power."

15             Now, you've spoken about President Tudjman.  You've spoken about

16     General Cermak, Mr. Mihic, Mr. Romanic and yourself.  Who would have been

17     in power to make it impossible to help both Croats and Serbs?

18        A.   I don't think there was such a force which, at that moment, could

19     have helped either one group or the other.  Throughout the war, I

20     followed the plight of both peoples.  At first, I followed the plight of

21     expelled Croats who had been driven out of Knin by my compatriots, the

22     Serbs.  After that, it was difficult for me to watch and follow the

23     plight of my ethnic community, which was significantly reduced in the

24     area.  Many of that group simply left.  It was -- happened because when

25     the Serbs were destroying the property of Croats, they were also

Page 23011

 1     destroying parts of themselves.  They failed to understand that, by

 2     burning, killing and expelling, they may have caused a turn of events

 3     which would be directed at them some day.  They did not realise that the

 4     property was a part of the state, irrespective of the fact whether the

 5     owner was a Croat or a Serb.

 6             If I may, while we're on the topic of prevention, I would say

 7     that it was difficult to rein in a person, whether that person belonged

 8     to the Croatian Army, the military, or if he was just an ordinary

 9     citizen.  If, after five years of expulsion, he returned to his home, and

10     upon his return, he came across a pile of stone out of which a fig tree

11     rose, who could have stopped such a person to repeat those actions, which

12     have caused his plight initially?

13             I simply cannot say anything to try and defend such behaviour.  I

14     condemn it, but I understand it.

15        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Pasic, while we are on that page, I did want to ask

16     you, if you could just explain one event on this page.  There's three

17     paragraphs beneath the paragraph we were just looking at.  It says:

18             "I remember that I was with my deputy on one occasion when we

19     caught a military policeman stealing equipment from a factory.  We took

20     him to the military police but nothing happened."

21             Do you recall such an incident, and, if so, can you explain how

22     you and your deputy could have, what appears to be, arrested a military

23     policeman?

24        A.   My deputy or my assistant was Ivan Barisic.  He was an engineer,

25     and before the war, before he had been expelled from Knin, he worked in

Page 23012

 1     the screw factory there.  We went to the tool work-shop of the factory,

 2     since he was interested in it at the time.  I wasn't very familiar with

 3     that facility, but we came across a member of the Croatian military

 4     police.  This remains etched in my memory.  I think his name was either

 5     Baturina or Badurina, and together with him we went to see Mr. Orsulic.

 6     We reported his behaviour.  I don't know what the consequences were, but

 7     I could see at the time that he was simply taking away stuff he would

 8     never need.  I don't know what followed though.

 9        Q.   Okay.  The statement says --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I notice that on your previous question

11     there was a long answer which had hardly to do anything with your

12     question.  Are you -- do you want an answer or are you just satisfied

13     that the witness --

14             MR. MISETIC:  I thought he did --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- tells us a lot of things but without giving an

16     answer to your question.

17             MR. MISETIC:  I thought he did give me an answer to the question,

18     but ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, he gave an answer -- well.

20             You asked him about the policies and those in power.  I didn't

21     hear anything about policies and power, but, rather --

22             MR. MISETIC:  I can go back --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- wide story -- well, I do not know.  if you

24     consider that your question has been answered, then, of course, I'd leave

25     to that.  I just observed that I didn't gain the impression that I heard

Page 23013

 1     an answer to what I understood to be your question.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

 3        Q.   Mr. Pasic, then, let's go back to that question.

 4             Do you know of anyone specifically who was in power who was

 5     trying to prevent you from being able to help Croats and Serbs?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Do you know or recall how that statement got into your witness

 8     statement?

 9        A.   I don't know how.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you say it, Mr. Pasic, or didn't you say that,

11     either confirming a question, or is it just invented by those who

12     interviewed you?  Or did you say a thing of this kind?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I said anything of

14     the sort.  Something like that could not have happened, as I explained.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, perhaps always, if we are referring to

16     his statement, we first verify whether the witness thinks that this is

17     something of the sort he said, because, to explore the further basis, if

18     he wouldn't have said that, doesn't make much sense.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Pasic, with respect to the issue of the military policeman

22     that you referred to Mr. Orsulic, it says:

23             "We took him to the military police but nothing happened."

24             That's at least what it says in the English.

25             Did you physically take this military policeman to the military

Page 23014

 1     police?

 2        A.   He went there with us.  Neither me nor Mr. Barisic needed to use

 3     any force, and I couldn't order him to follow us.  Simply as if nothing

 4     had happened, he accompanied us.  He didn't take anything on that

 5     occasion, because we prevented him.  And after that, I simply don't know

 6     what happened.  I didn't have any contact with Mr. Orsulic about that

 7     particular event.

 8        Q.   So you came upon him, you -- he wanted to steal things but you

 9     prevented it; and then he voluntarily walked with you to the military

10     police command?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Pasic, I just have two short areas to cover with you.  The

13     first is, I'd like to show you a video and ask that you confirm the

14     video.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, this is 65 ter 1D2981.

16        Q.   And it is referred -- you referred to this in your statement but

17     this is the actual video of your call to the Serbian population on the

18     5th of August.

19             MR. MISETIC:  It's broadcast on Croatian state television.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Mr. Petar Pasic is going to have a

22     lot of work to do soon.  He's the Croatian government commissioner for

23     Knin.

24             "Petar Pasic:  I would like to convey my sincere congratulations

25     to the leadership on bringing the decision to undertake a decisive

Page 23015

 1     military police action with the aim of reintegrating the occupied areas

 2     and reaching the internationally recognised borders of the Republic of

 3     Croatia.  I would also like to congratulate all those who participated in

 4     the brilliantly conducted action.  I expect that Croatia and its military

 5     police and police forces, as well as current government, will demonstrate

 6     all of their democratic strength and will in these historic times, which

 7     will be crucial particularly for the citizens, for Croatian citizens of

 8     Serb nationality, to remain in their homes as loyal citizens to whom the

 9     state of Croatia will guarantee all constitutional rights belonging to

10     them.

11             "I appeal to you once again, stay.  Remain calm and wait for the

12     Croatian authority.  Today is the day of your victory."

13             MR. MISETIC:

14        Q.   Mr. Pasic, is that the statement that you read out on Croatian

15     state television on the 5th of August, 1995?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you tell us the circumstances, how it came about that you

18     were allowed to appeal to the Croatian citizens of Serb nationality to

19     say in their homes?

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I'm just --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't understand how these questions arise from

23     the cross-examination.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One moment.

25             Mr. Misetic.

Page 23016

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I was -- understood that I had a

 2     little leeway in my re-cross, and this would have been something that I'm

 3     using with respect to the 2002 statement.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The letter was tendered by Mr. Kay and there's

 5     no -- this letter and this subject isn't addressed by the witness in any

 6     of his corrections, so I'm not sure it relates to the leeway that

 7     Mr. Misetic is referring to.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I think that was given to you at a

 9     certain context, that is, that you would not have to cross-examine the

10     witness on matters which he changed at a later stage, but if that would

11     be challenged by the Prosecution, then you would still have an

12     opportunity to deal with those matters.

13             That was the context in which, I think, I said we would not be

14     generous but liberal.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, but --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. MISETIC:  It wasn't related to that very narrow point.

18     However, there was an issue raised as to policy of the state, and what I

19     wanted to explore with him now is the contrast between saying there was a

20     policy of the state on the one hand, and on other hand, going on national

21     television on the 5th, expressing the exact opposite policy, and to

22     explore how it came about and with whom, if anyone, this --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. MISETIC:  -- presentation on national television was

25     coordinated.  And it goes directly to the issue of whether there was a

Page 23017

 1     policy.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you may put a few questions to the

 4     witness in relation to this video.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Mr. Pasic, did you discuss -- prior -- who did you have a

 7     conversation with prior to the -- your appearance on national television

 8     to discuss going on national television and issuing such an appeal?

 9        A.   I did not discuss that with anybody, anybody from the state

10     authorities or county authorities or any other authorities.  Whatever I

11     said and whatever you heard me saying were my words, the words that I

12     felt at the time, that I still feel, and that I will -- would feel

13     tomorrow.  I believe that I shared the joy of a number of Croatian

14     people, as well as the citizens of Knin.  I believe that I shared the joy

15     of many citizens in the so-called Republika Srpska Krajina, which were

16     awaiting for the full -- very well.

17        Q.   Mr. Pasic, I think -- I hope there is no misunderstanding between

18     us.  I didn't mean to suggest that somebody told you what to say.  What I

19     meant was, did you have a conversation with someone to say, I would like

20     to go on TV and issue an appeal?

21        A.   No.  Croatian TV approached me, and I, on my own, and I repeat,

22     without anybody's prior instructions, provided the statement that I did.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that 65 ter 1D2981 be marked

24     and I tender it into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

Page 23018

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1720.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 5             Could I ask you one question.

 6             Did you write down the text before you spoke it on television?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I read it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you had written it down yourself.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had written it down myself, like

10     I do all of my texts.  And since I always have stage fright before any

11     appearance, just like have I now, I would not have been able to deliver

12     the speech if I hadn't written it down.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:

15        Q.   This is my last question, Mr. Pasic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  If we could Exhibit P953 on the screen, please.

17        Q.   And it's just one follow-up question on the issue of housing in

18     Knin.

19             MR. MISETIC:  It's P953.

20        Q.   Mr. Pasic, this is a report of the ECMM dated 9 October 1995, and

21     this deals with, amongst other things, there was at paragraph 2,

22     discusses:

23             "Team Knin today had a meeting scheduled with the Housing

24     Committee of the Knin mayor's office."

25             Can you tell us what that might refer to?  Did your office have a

Page 23019

 1     housing committee?

 2        A.   Yes, to the previous question, I answered that the city of Knin

 3     had a housing commission, and president of that commission was my deputy

 4     for legal affairs, Mr. Slavko Djakovic.

 5             The housing commission and the decisions that it carried out were

 6     in the hands of Silvana Dumancic, who had a degree in law, and members of

 7     the commission were the employees of the Ministry of the Interior, the

 8     Ministry of Defence, and the Centre for Social Welfare.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to paragraph numbered 5, which is

10     page 2 in the English.

11        Q.   This paragraph discusses a meeting at the Tvik factory that the

12     ECMM had and it discusses the role of the Tvik factory in returning

13     economic development in the area.  They had a discussion with the manager

14     of the Tvik factory, and if we go down, it says towards the middle of

15     that paragraph --

16             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page in the B/C/S, please.

17        Q.   Actually in -- it says in paragraph B, there's a lack of skilled

18     manpower.  C is the big problem is the housing for the employees.  And

19     then towards the middle of the paragraph it says:

20             "The possibility of Serbs to work on Tvik, demand for labour will

21     not exceed 400, and a few Serbs will be employed.  It is no problem to

22     get unqualified employees, but Tvik is in big need of experts.  Some of

23     them will come from Zadar and even from Bosnia.  He asks if the EU is

24     willing to help them to organise a training course ... to get

25     well-skilled personnel."

Page 23020

 1             And then the comment by the ECMM is:

 2             "Housing problem is paramount; nobody will come to work without

 3     this problem solved."

 4             Now, was there, Mr. Pasic, in your recollection and your

 5     understanding and knowledge of the working of the housing commission, a

 6     problem in bringing skilled labour into the area, because there was a

 7     lack of housing for people to come from outside of the Sector South to

 8     work within the newly liberated areas?

 9        A.   I believe that there was no lack of housing.  I believe that

10     there are still a lot of empty apartments in Knin, even today.  And if

11     we're talking about labour force, professionals, then I would like to say

12     that a lot of people who worked in companies such as Vijak had to leave

13     Travnik, Bugojno, and other places, and they started working in the

14     factory in Knin.

15        Q.   Well, if -- if the Law on Temporary Take Over of Property had not

16     been passed and if the Law on Socially Owned Flats had not been passed,

17     would there still have been a lot of housing to employ skilled workers?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I think it -- that question is both

20     speculative, and with respect to the second law, there's no foundation

21     that the witness is even aware of that law, let alone its substance.

22             Thank you.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, he has testified that he is familiar

24     with the work of the housing commission which was part of the town of

25     Knin or mayor's office, depending on whether you believe the ECMM or how

Page 23021

 1     the witness has characterised it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  What you're actually asking is about what the effect

 3     of the legislation was on the existing situation.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Well, I'm actually just trying to clarify the

 5     witness's last answer.  He says there was a lot of housing.  Does he mean

 6     that in terms of just structures that are on the ground or does he mean

 7     they were available --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's ask the witness then first whether he could

 9     quantify that so that we know what we are talking about.

10             Could you tell us if you said there was no lack of housing?

11     Could you explain how many houses were there, for whom?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I couldn't give you the

13     exact number of houses, but I believe that there were 4 to 5.000, and

14     again, I'm not sure that there were 4 to 5.000 apartments.  The Vijak

15     factory had 3500 employees, and I assume that at its disposal it had at

16     least 10 to 1200 housing units for its employees.  And the other

17     companies were no different, in that respect.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You said there were 4 to 500 apartments free to be

19     occupied ...

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I believe it is 4 to 5.000.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- I thought -- 4 to 5.000 apartments in

22     Knin alone?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that that's correct.  We

24     were talking about 400 employees, as far as I could understand your

25     question.  400 people could find employment in -- in the Vijak factory.

Page 23022

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I could just clarify something

 2     for the Chamber, and I apologise if the Chamber is also aware of it.

 3     Vijak and Tvik, I believe, are synonymous.  But perhaps the witness can

 4     clarify.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, Vijak and Tvik, is that the same

 6     company or ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Tvik is the abbreviation that

 8     stands for the factory for the production of nuts and bolts in Knin.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you said there were 4 to 5.000 apartments

10     in Knin available for housing.  Is that ...

11             That's your testimony?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And had there been a lot of construction, new

14     apartments, after the Republic of Serbian Krajina had been established?

15     You -- you lived in the area.  Was there a lot of new apartments built

16     over the last few years?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid I have to

18     correct you.  I -- since 1990, I have not lived in Knin.  I was born

19     there, but I resided and worked in Sibenik.  During the Krajina

20     authorities there were no jobs --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me just stop you there for a second.

22             The reason why I'm asking is the following.  I think that in the

23     1990 census there were some -- little bit over 3.000, perhaps 3.300

24     households.  So therefore, the number of 4 to 5.000 apartments being

25     available comes as a bit as a surprise to me.

Page 23023

 1             Therefore, I'm exploring with you whether this number is -- is

 2     based on what?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that was my assumption.

 4     First of all, the last census was in 1991, and, at that time, the city of

 5     Knin -- the city itself, had between 12.000 and 15.000 inhabitants.  And

 6     I therefore assumed that given the fact that the JNA had its housing

 7     stock, the Croatian railways had its housing stock and so on and so

 8     forth, there was also the medical centre and hospital and all the others.

 9     That's what I based my assumptions on.  I may have been mistaken, but ...

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Misetic, any further questions for the

11     witness?

12             I'm also looking at the clock.  I -- of course, 15 minutes ago I

13     thought we would be done in one or two minutes but ...

14             MR. MISETIC:  So did I, Mr. President.  If I could just, then,

15     have the break and I may be finished, and if I have anything, it will be

16     two minutes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Two minutes.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  With the apologies to interpreters and all those who

20     are assisting us.

21             Mr. Pasic, we will first have a break, and we'll resume at

22     quarter past 11.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.48 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

Page 23024

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.  I have no further questions

 2     for the witness.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pasic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Mikulicic.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, since Mr. Misetic explored my topic,

 7     I will have no questions to the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

 9             Mr. Kay, I think, then, you have an opportunity to re-examine the

10     witness.

11             MR. KAY:  No re-examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No re-examination, which --

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I have no more questions, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- means ...

15             Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions for you, Mr. Pasic.

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  I want to ask something relating to your duties

18     in Knin at the time that both you and Mr. Cermak were there.

19             Were there any occasions when your duties overlapped, and, if the

20     answer is yes, how was the problem dealt with?

21        A.   There was no overlapping.  The commissioner's work did not

22     overlap with the work of General Cermak, who was garrison commander.

23             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Thank you.  Very briefly, how would you describe,

24     then, the way your duties and his duties correlated.

25        A.   My duties were connected with the work and programme of the

Page 23025

 1     ministry of the administration and justice of the Republic of Hrvatska,

 2     which means that my work fell within the purview of local administration

 3     and self-government.  In our country the work of a city or a local

 4     self-government determined my authorities and the way I worked.

 5             As soon as I arrived in Knin, I had to create conditions for the

 6     life of people in the city of Knin.  This primarily meant bringing

 7     electricity into town.  There was no drinking water, and I also had to

 8     provide people with adequate accommodation, if they had expressed desire

 9     to settle in Knin, or those Croats who had been expelled in 1990 and 1991

10     and were accommodated in hotel villages in Solaris, Primosten and Vodica,

11     or in the capital, Zagreb.

12             I believe that some of the duties that I mentioned were carried

13     out even better than in other areas liberated during Operation Storm, but

14     it is not for me to talk about that.

15             Within a very short period of time, we reconstructed and put into

16     operation a nursery and a kindergarten for young families, and in the

17     former building of a primary school, we restored the work of the Knin

18     primary school because a lot of school children had returned to Knin.

19             Soon after that, we also opened a secondary school.

20             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Thank you, Mr. Pasic.  If I could interrupt you,

21     I think have you answered my question.  Thank you.

22        A.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.

24             JUDGE KINIS:  Mr. Pasic, continuing previous question what you

25     respond just -- I'm a bit confused about your answer, because when I'm

Page 23026

 1     read your statement in -- given to Prosecution in 2002, and particularly

 2     page 4 and the paragraph which starts:

 3             "As far as I know, Cermak was there to assist the civil

 4     authorities."

 5             And then you mention:

 6             "He would direct me to organise the feeding of people which took

 7     place where Cermak had his office."

 8             We heard numerous evidence here that Cermak also is dealing with

 9     the same issues like you, electricity, water supply, and you told that

10     there is no overlapping, or what kind of relations do you have between

11     you and Cermak?  It's still not clear for me.

12        A.   When I arrived in Knin as the commissioner of the government of

13     the Croatia, and I came from Sibenik, I have to tell you that there was a

14     big difference between being the commissioner in exile in Knin, which

15     means you were not in Knin, and the situation was even more difficult

16     when we -- once we arrived in Knin.

17             I repeat, Mr. Cermak had his powers, I had my powers.  As far as

18     General Cermak is concerned, I would like to say that the commissioner's

19     office for Knin in exile did not have enough resources and staff to deal

20     with the problems that occurred after Operation Storm.  And let me say

21     once again, that we enjoyed General Cermak's full help.  Without him,

22     many things would not have been done and resolved in a quality way, as I

23     have already told to Madam Judge.

24             Let me repeat, he had his powers, I had my powers,

25     and our cooperation and mutual assistance was at a very high level, I

Page 23027

 1     would say.

 2             JUDGE KINIS:  But did he issue some instructions to you?

 3        A.   No, no instructions were given, either in a written or verbal

 4     form.  We discussed things and that's how we decided how to do things.

 5     He never issued me with any written or oral instructions.

 6             JUDGE KINIS:  You mentioned that your office didn't have

 7     sufficient amount of finances and resources.  Could you please tell me

 8     who -- how much resources was at Cermak's disposal?

 9             You mentioned here in your testimony yesterday that villages were

10     supplied by generators, by televisions.  And so where he got this stuff?

11        A.   When I was speaking about my resources, I did not talk about

12     money but about human resources that the commissioner's office had at its

13     disposal at the time.  I didn't have any problems with funding, because

14     the funds from the Ministry of Finance were delivered on time, even

15     before Operation Storm when we were working in exile, and later on, the

16     monies went through Zadar and Knin county and they reached us through

17     them.  How Mr. Cermak's office was funded, I don't know.  I never

18     inquired and it was not up to me to inquire.

19             As far as your question is concerned, and your curiosity about

20     televisions, after Operation Storm, many company delegates,

21     representatives and individuals arrived in Knin.  They brought donations.

22     They brought TV sets, food, and I believe that those donations -- and to

23     me personally, I received financial donation from Australia for the first

24     marriage in Knin, actually there were two marriages that took place at

25     the same time so I had to split that donation between two -- two couples

Page 23028

 1     who got married at the same time.

 2             JUDGE KINIS:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pasic, I have a few questions for you as well.

 4             First, in relation to one of your previous answers, could you

 5     give me a name of the company that would provide television sets to your

 6     office or the office of Mr. Cermak, which you then distributed in the

 7     Oton village?

 8        A.   I believe that the company in question was Frotea.  The TV sets

 9     were donated by the representative of the Croatian Chamber of Commerce of

10     the then Croatian republic Herceg-Bosna.  I believe that his name was

11     Jago Lasic, if I'm not mistaken.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you aware of any documents in which they are

13     offered, a letter sent, Here, you've got five or ten television sets.

14             Is there any documentary evidence which would support your

15     answer?

16        A.   No, there's nothing.  At that time donations just arrived.

17     People would, for example, come to my office or to Mr. Cermak's office

18     with donations.  Later on, we tried to record those donations, which were

19     then in a different form, and we tried to distribute those donations

20     through the office of the Croatian Red Cross that was in charge of that.

21             Let me just tell that you in the vicinity of the Croatian Army

22     hall, the municipality of Donja Stubica, built a house, one of the only

23     two that were shelled in the city of Knin.  There's no written document

24     to that effect, no written document to show that the house was the result

25     of a donation.

Page 23029

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, these television sets, were they

 2     delivered at your office or Mr. Cermak's office, before you took them to

 3     Oton village?

 4        A.   I believe that they were brought to Mr. Cermak.  But we carried

 5     them there together.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you learn which firm supplied these

 7     television sets?

 8        A.   Later, some of those people who had donated some gifts, after the

 9     meeting with Mr. Cermak, visited me.  They paid me a visit in my office,

10     the office of the commissioner's.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And these were all new television sets?

12        A.   I believe so.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You believe so.  What could create any doubt?

14        A.   They were packed in cardboard boxes.  Well, I didn't really

15     inspect them, to be absolutely sure that they were new.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said they gave the impression that were in

17     the original carton boxes.

18             Moving to a totally different subject.  Upon arrival here in

19     The Hague you explained to the Cermak Defence that after reviewing your

20     statements over a couple of days, you would like to make changes.  How

21     long did that meeting take, approximately, in which you informed the

22     Cermak Defence about the changes you'd like to make?

23        A.   When I arrived in The Hague, in my statement provided to the

24     investigator, I did not make any changes concerning General Cermak.  The

25     changes that I made concerned other things and matters.

Page 23030

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But my question was:  How long the meeting in which

 2     you expressed your wish to make these changes lasted.

 3        A.   About an hour or so, I believe.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you go through your statements?  Did

 5     you go through it page by page, or had you prepared a list of changes?

 6     What happened during this one-hour meeting?

 7        A.   Already before that, I had already made up my mind as to what

 8     parts of the statement needed to be changed, and I spontaneously provided

 9     different answers, with the professional help of the Defence team.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Had you put them on paper already, what the

11     real answers should be, for yourself?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So you had prepared a document for yourself, on the

14     basis of which you informed the Cermak Defence about your wish to make

15     some changes?

16        A.   [In English] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you still have that document in your possession?

18        A.   [Interpretation] No, I don't.  Once we made the changes, I

19     received the new text, and I signed every single page personally.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  What happened with the document you had prepared?

21     Did you give it to the Cermak Defence, or did you ...

22        A.   I tore it up, and -- well, I would feel embarrassed to actually

23     have to tell you where I put it, what I did with it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, if there's any reason why you wouldn't

25     say it in an open session, then, of course, in order to protect your

Page 23031

 1     privacy, we could turn into private session.  But I would like to know

 2     where -- what happened to that document.

 3        A.   It was not a document.  It was a piece of paper --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5        A.    -- which I flushed down the toilet.  I did not want that piece

 6     of paper to be abused, either by me or by somebody else.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What was the risk of abuse of that piece of paper?

 8        A.   Well, I don't know -- I didn't feel any imminent risk.  I just

 9     didn't want anybody else but me being in a position to use it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11        A.   And all the papers that I have now, I will store them out of

12     anybody's reach, because I don't want anybody to either read them or have

13     access to them, for any reason whatsoever.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, on that piece of paper, did you work on the

15     basis of paragraphs of your statement?  Could you tell us what you wrote

16     down?

17             And let me just go back to one of your previous answers.

18             You told me that you had put on paper already what the real

19     answers should be.  Did you write that down in your own handwriting?

20        A.   I couldn't do it any other way.  I don't use computers, printers,

21     or anything of the sort, and I did not have any equipment at my disposal.

22     As I prepared for work and certain activities, I would write down several

23     drafts of speeches or plans for activities, and then I would work further

24     on them, as needed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did I understand your previous answer

Page 23032

 1     well, that you -- let me just ...

 2             Had you formulated the answers you considered correct on that

 3     piece of paper?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you copy, first, the old answers, and then

 6     add what the true answers would be; or did you just make a

 7     paragraph reference and then add what the new text should be?

 8             Could you tell us which way you did that.

 9        A.   In my papers, I checked for things that were not correct, and I

10     based my corrections on that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But then you put the right answers written out

12     on that piece of paper?

13        A.   Exactly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And was that one sheet, several sheets; could

15     you tell us?

16        A.   Several sheets.  I couldn't put all the seven corrections on one

17     sheet.  And, as I told you already, I change things several times round

18     before I am happy with the answer.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, was any change made to what you had written

20     down and what we finally found in this document that was made on this

21     Tuesday, the -- or did the Cermak Defence copy all of your answers; or

22     did you refine the formulation?

23             Were there any changes to what you had put on paper?

24        A.   The written text of the answers was my language, my formulations.

25     Perhaps there may have been certain additions from the professional side,

Page 23033

 1     by the team of attorneys.  In any case, they did not touch upon my right

 2     to have this or that type of answer.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you said the meeting lasted only one

 4     hour -- or approximately one hour, I think you said.

 5        A.   Exactly.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you then read the new answers to them, or

 7     did you, at any moment, give them a copy of what you had prepared?

 8        A.   I read them, and then, together with them, we were trying to find

 9     the right formulation so as to keep the answer in line with what it

10     should be.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you write them down in your own

12     language?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And was an interpreter present during that meeting

15     on Tuesday?

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And did he, on the spot, translate your language

18     into English; or did he, at any moment, had this piece of paper so as to

19     put it in proper English on what was later presented to us as your

20     additional statement or at least the corrections?

21        A.   No.  I was present as the interpreter interpreted from Croatian

22     into English.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I change subjects again.

24             You told us about -- that you had a conversation in which it was

25     said that it would not be good if President Tudjman would see the -- the

Page 23034

 1     burning.

 2             Did you ever consider that, if Mr. Tudjman, President Tudjman,

 3     would visit the area, that if there would have been smoke, that the

 4     international community, ambassadors, other high officials, would say to

 5     him, Well, you've seen it yourself.

 6             Was that of any concern to you?

 7        A.   I didn't consider the possibility that the president or someone

 8     else could see smoke.  I don't know whether the president was fed correct

 9     information from the field or not.  I can't say that.  I did not send in

10     reports.  Someone else probably did, but I can't know what sort of

11     reports reached the president.  However, I am certain that the president

12     of the Republic would not have been happy with ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may have misunderstood my question.  You -- the

14     first part of your answer was:

15             "I didn't consider the possibility that the president or someone

16     else could see smoke."

17             Do I have to understand your testimony to be that, on this -- I

18     think it was the 26th of August, that travelling by train through the

19     area would not -- you wouldn't see any smoke of houses that were or had

20     been burning before?

21        A.   No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, you discussed that it would not be

23     good and that the burning should stop.

24             Again, if you couldn't see any smoke, what was your -- why would

25     you consider it not to be good to see smoke if there was no smoke to be

Page 23035

 1     seen at all?  That's at least what you expected.

 2        A.   Perhaps the translation does not correspond to ... maybe I would

 3     change it again.

 4             In my conversation with Mr. Cermak, I may have used the words

 5     "the president would not have been glad," but I thought it might have

 6     been good, irrespective of the president and other officials who

 7     accompanied him on the liberty train, to have that stopped.  In that

 8     case, I thought that it would be good that as of now, not as of the

 9     president's arrival, that there be any other burning of property.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So the gist, then, of your conversation was that it

11     would not be good if there would be any further burning, apart from that

12     the president would not have been in a position to see any smoke at all.

13        A.   Precisely.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Change subjects again.

15             I think some questions were put to you in relation to a hundred

16     Serbs having returned to Knin, and we are at the end of October when this

17     would have happened.  And you told us that at least one group returned,

18     organised, arriving in a bus.

19             Is that correctly understood?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, how many Serbs approximately were living in

22     Knin, even before the war started?

23        A.   According to the census from 1991, in Knin, that is to say, the

24     area of the former Knin municipality, there lived some 38 or

25     39.000 Serbs.  The percentage it amounted to was 89, 8, some per cent

Page 23036

 1     were Croats, and three and a half, or 3 per cent, were of those who did

 2     not declare their ethnicity or declare themselves Yugoslavs.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now the hundred Serbs that had returned by the end

 4     of October, were you referring to the town of Knin only or were you

 5     referring to the Knin municipality?

 6        A.   Some arrived in the town of Knin; whereas, others went to some

 7     rural parts further from Knin.  That is to say, to the villages where

 8     they had left from.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, when this was discussed, I got the

10     impression that - but please correct me when I'm wrong - that you

11     considered this, well, an achievement, a hundred Serbs having returned,

12     something noteworthy.  Is that a misapprehension of what you meant to

13     say, or ...

14        A.   You did not misunderstand.  The traces of war were still felt,

15     and persons had to express their wish to return.  Some of them may have

16     felt fear, but, later on -- well, you know how it is.  When one family

17     returns to a village and then they let others know that there were no

18     problems, then they began returning more frequently.

19             If I may, you are referring to this figure of 100.  If I said

20     there were some 3.000 Croats, only 250 out of that total number of Croats

21     saw the beginning of the operation in Knin itself.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, 100 out of close to a 40.000 is one-quarter of

23     1 per cent.  Did you consider that, at that time, to be an achievement

24     which would support that the return of Serbs was going well?

25        A.   In my view, it is an inherent right of every person to live where

Page 23037

 1     they want to.  What I can say is that even thought there are conditions

 2     in place for their return now, people still did not return.  They found

 3     other means of living, some of them remained in the Republic of Serbia,

 4     but, unfortunately, most of the population of Knin is not in Serbia but

 5     in Canada, Australia, and America.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You referred to -- that the conditions are in

 7     place for return but people still did not return.

 8             Could you give us a figure as to how many of those 38 to 40.000

 9     you mentioned before have now returned today?  If you know.  If you don't

10     know, tell us.

11        A.   I don't know exactly.  But I do take part in the meetings of the

12     Serb National Council at which it is mentioned that in the territory of

13     the Republic of Croatia, from Operation Storm to date, some 112 to

14     115.000 people returned.

15             In my estimate, most of them returned to the area of the former

16     Knin municipality, because most was -- the most was done there.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any statistics or figures on that?

18     Because, if 40.000 left, it may be -- it may be a need of some further

19     explanation if you say that 112 to 115.000 people returned.  Then,

20     apparently, we're talking about different groups or different places,

21     different areas.

22             Do you have any statistics on specifically Knin area?

23        A.   I don't.  This figure covers the entire Republic of Croatia after

24     Operations Flash and Storm.  I think the return in greatest number, in

25     terms of Serbs, was in the area around Knin and the town itself, because

Page 23038

 1     that is where the most was done in the process of reconstruction.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 3             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need to put further

 4     questions to the witness?

 5             Mr. Kay.

 6             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour, several matters.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Kay:

 8        Q.   Mr. Pasic, can we deal, first of all, with the changes that made

 9     to your Prosecution statement, and I want to ask you questions about that

10     arising from His Honour Judge Orie's questions.

11             Firstly, did you tell the Cermak Defence which paragraphs, which

12     parts of the statement you wanted to change?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Was it ever suggested to you by any member of the Cermak Defence

15     team that you should ever change any part of your statement?

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, these are quite leading questions,

17     and in the circumstances, perhaps they should be put in a more open-ended

18     way.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

20             MR. KAY:  I can't think of any other way of putting the question.

21     It's not leading.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- however, Mr. Kay, it's -- if, in my

23     questions, there was any such suggestion included, and I think it was

24     not, but then that certainly was not what I intended to discuss with the

25     witness.

Page 23039

 1             MR. KAY:  Very well, Your Honour.  I don't know what the Bench is

 2     thinking, what --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's the reason why I --

 4             MR. KAY:  And -- yeah.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- was mainly focussing on prepared new text.

 6             MR. KAY:  Yes, I will direct my questions to that, given

 7     Your Honour'S guidance on the matter.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 9             MR. KAY:

10        Q.   Was it -- did you point out which parts of the statement needed

11     to be changed?

12        A.   As I said, I alone, without any influence, decided which changes

13     need to be made, and in keeping with that, I suggested the right answers,

14     or the replacement that should take place, due to the change I wished to

15     make.

16        Q.   And was what you told the Cermak Defence written down by a member

17     of their team at the time, as you spoke?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   And did you speak in your own language?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And as a result of what you said, was a document typed up the

22     same day that was put to you for your approval?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And did you read that document?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23040

 1        Q.   And did it reflect what you had told the Cermak Defence at the

 2     time?

 3        A.   In full.

 4        Q.   And then did you sign that document?

 5        A.   Every page.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             Just moving on to some other matters, in answer to Her Honour

 8     Judge Gwaunza, you said that you had to create the conditions for life of

 9     electricity, drinking water, accommodation.  Now, taking, first of all,

10     electricity, did General Cermak have any role to play in relation to the

11     connection of the electricity for Knin?

12        A.   General Cermak was not in charge of re-establishing the water

13     supply, electricity supply, soup kitchens or some other elements required

14     for the functioning of the town of Knin.  However, I felt the need, or I

15     realised that, with my team, we were not able to overcome the obstacles

16     before us.  It is then that I asked General Cermak to help me.  He did

17     so, to the best of his ability, to deal with those problems in Knin.

18             I can tell that you in a very short period of time, the town of

19     Knin had potable water and most of the settlements near Knin began

20     receiving electricity.  Where there were greater distances involved and

21     where there was more destruction, General Cermak personally, in my

22     village, it may have been because of me perhaps, brought a generator,

23     where the people who received the TV sets I mentioned could watch them.

24     That generator enabled the use of electricity for the inhabitants, by the

25     inhabitants.

Page 23041

 1        Q.   Now, if we can take this in stages.  The electricity, did Knin

 2     have to be reconnected to the electricity supply?

 3        A.   Yes.  The town of Knin did not have electricity supply.  I

 4     believe the commander of the Military District and the military

 5     garrison --

 6             MR. KAY:  Garrison.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  As the witness says, had their own generators.

 8             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I was just correcting there a translation

 9     error that we've had several -- several times on the word "garrison."

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, that is what the witness

11     said.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I --

13             MR. KAY:  Yes, thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. KAY:

16        Q.   The electricity, then, was connected by the garrison.  Was that

17     work that you were able to do with your staff or did it require a

18     different competence to do that work?

19        A.   As I said, the employees of the Croatian electricity supply

20     company, and in particular the Commission of the Republic of Croatia,

21     were insufficiently equipped to be able to deal with the problems which

22     cropped up after the Operation Storm in Knin.  We asked to be helped --

23        Q.   And where did that help come from?  Who helped you?

24        A.   In order to deal with the situation, the Croatian electrical

25     company sent teams from Split and Zadar.  They also sent in teams to

Page 23042

 1     re-establish the telephone network.  The area of Knin was in the

 2     territory of the Zadar department.  Some people also arrived from the

 3     postal centres in Split and Sibenik, and I believe much was done in order

 4     to resolve the issues.

 5        Q.   And in relation to those works, what did the garrison do?

 6        A.   The garrison, although I didn't mention it, probably had to

 7     provide food and accommodation for those people.  But I forgot to

 8     mention, and I don't know whether I was asked about that, that the public

 9     utility company of the town of Knin had to become operational right after

10     Operation Storm, and we managed to do that.

11             Irrespective of the fact that I was the governmental

12     commissioner, I was not a familiar face in that area, and I relied on the

13     position and reputation of Mr. Cermak to assist me.  He did so, by virtue

14     of his connections, I presume from Zagreb, where he hails from, brought

15     in a public utility team from Zagreb.  They cleaned the streets round the

16     clock.  Thus, clearing the town of Knin of any debris or leftover garbage

17     which had not been taken away during the previous -- during the rule of

18     the previous authorities.

19        Q.   And was that work necessary to normalise life in Knin?

20        A.   Had it not been for the clean-up team, which dealt with Knin

21     itself, I believe, in a very short time, the situation would have become

22     unbearable.  People could not live or return to Knin.  There probably

23     would have been an outbreak or anything of the sort.

24        Q.   Turning now to the drinking water, in relation to restoring

25     drinking water to Knin and the area, are you able to say what work the

Page 23043

 1     garrison did, in relation to that?

 2        A.   The garrison -- I didn't know some of the people who had worked

 3     there before, but the garrison managed to locate an expert team.  Knin is

 4     supplied with water rather specifically from a source called Vrelo.  It's

 5     a source of water, and perhaps all that was necessary was to reconnect

 6     the pumps and then water began flowing.  I think there was a certain

 7     Cacic, who was the person who had worked previously with that equipment,

 8     who was brought in from Zagreb in order to deal with the water supply of

 9     Knin as soon as possible.

10        Q.   And who was bringing in the -- the person from Zagreb to deal

11     with the water supply?

12        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know who brought him in.  But I

13     think that, during a meeting, some mention was made of a person who would

14     be an expert to deal with it, and I believe it was on the suggestion of

15     the garrison that he was brought in from Zagreb.

16        Q.   You mention funds and donations.  What sort of things were being

17     donated by others to Knin?

18        A.   When we're talking about donations I can say that donations

19     varied.  I have already told you that a man came to me, he was the mayor

20     of Donja Stubica, he brought some workmen and they restored a house --

21     the house belonged to Mr. Jakovljevic.  Actually, there were three

22     owners.  One of them was Sota Jakovljevic [phoen].  They did it in a very

23     short time.  Then there was this donation of TV sets.  There were also

24     building materials that were donated.  But I have to say that when a soup

25     kitchen was opened to feed those who were not able to provide for

Page 23044

 1     themselves, it was moved from the place where it stood originally to the

 2     premises of the former Balkan restaurant, and it received donations in

 3     food.

 4             I must again point out that some of the people that donated

 5     things, I didn't know.  I have to tell you that a man came and he was the

 6     owner of a meat processing factory.  His name was either Jakopec or

 7     Jakopec, I don't know exactly.  And owing to his previous acquaintance

 8     with Mr. Cermak and the reputation that Mr. Cermak enjoyed, because of

 9     Mr. Cermak and because of people who needed help, a very impressive

10     donation arrived, consisting of dry cured meats and cold cuts and fresh

11     meat as well.

12             According it my estimate, the soup kitchen, which provided a

13     daily supply of some 300 meals, was well supplied with meat products and

14     fresh meat that lasted for over ten days.  Likewise, I have to say that

15     this was a joint agreement with General Cermak, because we ceded a former

16     bakery shop to a man who had returned to the city of Knin.  His name was

17     Teskera.  He supplied the soup kitchen with a month's worth supply of

18     bread for all those who benefited from the services of the soup kitchen.

19             I really can't remember all the other donations at the moment.

20     There may have been some donations that were not even needed at the time,

21     some wicker chairs or garden furniture, but I must tell you that those

22     donations were presented to either Mr. Cermak or myself.  We did not

23     distribute the goods according to needs.  If the donations consisted of

24     food, clothes and footwear, then we would call the secretary of the

25     Red Cross office, whose name was Tanja Grgic, because the Red Cross, I

Page 23045

 1     must admit, was really well organised, very mobile, and with the

 2     assistance of international humanitarian organisations it was fully

 3     equipped to --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I'm wondering whether we have not reached a

 5     level of detail which might not assist the Chamber.

 6             MR. KAY:  I think so.

 7        Q.   There's a document I would like you to look at.  It is

 8     65 ter 2D00314.

 9             And, Mr. Pasic, if you can look at the screen there to your right

10     at a document dated the 8th of August, from the garrison.  Signed by

11     Mr. Cermak.  Sent to Zadar-Knin county, Orlovic donation, care of

12     Mr. Kumana.

13             Do you know a Mr. Kumana at all?

14        A.   Mr. Kuman, while I was the commissioner of the Republic of

15     Croatia for Knin, was -- held the same duty for Benkovac.  And when this

16     document was drafted or, rather, when this request was drafted, I believe

17     that he was the head of the prefect's office for reconstruction of

18     development.  I'm not sure about that.  But I know that he was a county

19     official and that he was the head of one of the county offices.

20        Q.   And if you see the content of this application, you see that it's

21     due to the normalisation of work and return of civilians to the town of

22     Knin, "I hereby ask you to donate one power generator from the Orlovic

23     donation" and signed by General Cermak.

24             First of all, did you know about this request for a donation by

25     General Cermak?

Page 23046

 1        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.

 2        Q.   And did you know at the time whether the Orlovic donation in fact

 3     gave a generator to the town of Knin?

 4        A.   I assume that the generator went to Oton Bender, where it was

 5     installed.

 6        Q.   This is dated the 8th of August, 1995.  Would that have been a

 7     generator that went to Oton Bender on that date?

 8        A.   The date is the 8th of August, that's the date of the

 9     application.  And when the application was dealt with and when the

10     generator went up there, I don't know.  I can't be -- I can't be sure of

11     that.

12             However, I believe that some time lapsed, before the generator

13     arrived in Knin and dispatched to the place where it would be used.

14             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I ask that this document be made an

15     exhibit, please.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1721.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that's all I ask.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And this was re-examination, although we didn't have

22     the usual sequence of examination of the witness.

23             Therefore, without now a liberal approach anymore, Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  I will keep it strictly to the questions from the

25     Bench, Mr. President.

Page 23047

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

 3        Q.   Mr. Pasic, you answered some questions from the Presiding Judge,

 4     Judge Orie - at page 45, lines 3 to 6, for the benefit of the parties -

 5     and this was when you were asked about donations of television sets.  And

 6     you specifically referenced that this came from a man named Jago Lasic,

 7     who - if I can just find the line - was chairman of commerce -- or,

 8     sorry.  Croatian Chamber of Commerce of the then Croatian Republic of

 9     Herceg-Bosna.  Then you were asked by the Presiding Judge:  Are you aware

10     of any documents in which they are offered, a letter sent, Here you've

11     got five or ten television sets.

12             Now, I would like to show you a video concerning -- which is

13     related to this issue.

14             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could, Mr. Registrar, play 65 ter 1D2982.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "[Voiceover] The last four years in Knin can be characterised as

17     years of idleness and disorder.  But this for some time [indiscernible],

18     says Petar Pasic, the commissioner of the government of the Republic of

19     Croatia for Knin.  Today the president of the Chamber of Commerce of the

20     Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosnia, Mr. Jago Lasic, has promised to

21     provide his full assistance in the realisation of this goal.  And

22     together with his associates and several companies from Herceg-Bosnia, he

23     visited this town today.  This time, aside from their promise of future

24     cooperation, they also brought aid to Zvonimir Grad [phoen] in the value

25     of approximately 1.850.000 kuna and two computers as a gift to the local

Page 23048

 1     hospital."

 2             MR. MISETIC:

 3        Q.   Mr. Pasic, that meeting on the 28th of August, is that the

 4     meeting with Mr. Lasic to which you were referring in answer to the

 5     Presiding Judge's questions?

 6        A.   Yes, I believe so.

 7        Q.   Were there any other meetings with Mr. Lasic in Knin, other than

 8     the one on the 28th of August?

 9        A.   I don't know if there were any others.  But I know that he

10     brought a number of people who was his associates on his visit to Knin.

11     I believe there was the representative of a company whose name was Frotea

12     or something like that.  I can't remember after 15 years.  I know that

13     there were a lot of people, that they all promised assistance and that

14     they did, indeed, follow through and sent donations.

15        Q.   Now, in the video it's referenced that Mr. Lasic and the group

16     that came with him from Herceg-Bosna brought aid in the value of

17     approximately 1.850.000 kuna.  Can you describe for us the form in which

18     that -- the form which that aid took; in other words, was it 1.850.000 in

19     value of goods, or was it cash?

20        A.   In cash, you mean?  I -- I believe that there was no cash

21     involved.  I believe that the donation that arrived from the then

22     leadership of the Croatian Chamber of Commerce of Herceg-Bosna, as far as

23     I know, was sent to the Knin hospital, which already, at the time, had

24     already started working, and I assumed that the chief administrator of

25     the Knin hospital, Mr. Biskovic, had taken over the donation, whatever it

Page 23049

 1     was.  I believe that he was the one who took the donation over.

 2        Q.   But were the televisions that you referred to in your answers to

 3     Judge Orie, were the televisions part of this donation that's referenced

 4     there of 1.850.000 kuna?

 5        A.   I believe so.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that 65 ter 1D2982 be marked

 7     and I tender it into evidence.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1722.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             Any further questions on this issue?

13             MR. MISETIC:  No, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, Mr. Pasic, where was this aid

15     delivered, as far as you remember?  If you know.  The goods.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, judging by the -- the image

17     of the event by -- judging by the pictures, I believe that the meeting

18     was held on the premises of the government of the Republic of Croatia.  I

19     believe that it was in my office, actually.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that's where the goods were delivered?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Save for the TV sets and the -- the

22     monitors -- I don't know what to call them.  I believe that one part of

23     the donation actually ended up with me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What part?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that Mr. Lasic had

Page 23050

 1     brought a number of people, economists from the area, executives and

 2     businessmen.  I believe that they brought a lot of towels, clothing items

 3     that had been donated by a company whose name is Frotea, as I've already

 4     told you already.  And I believe that we immediately involved the

 5     Croatian Red Cross, that immediately embarked on the distribution of

 6     those donated goods.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Goods were immediately distributed then, upon

 8     receipt?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I believe so.  I can't

10     see that on the screen, but I believe that, when it comes to donations,

11     Mr. Curko was also present at the meeting.  He was the head of the

12     welfare centre, and I believe that Mrs. Tanja Grgic, from the Croatian

13     Red Cross, was also present at the meeting.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And there was no list of goods in this amount of

15     1.850.000 kuna?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A reference is made to the value as

17     being 1.850.000 kuna.  I can't really tell you whether that amount is

18     correct.  I believe that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you whether the amount was correct.  I

20     asked you whether there was list of goods.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions?

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Pasic, if I can ask you, you were asked some questions about

25     the numbers of Serbs that had returned to Knin by the end of

Page 23051

 1     October 1995.  How many Croats who are from the Knin municipality - in

 2     other words, Croats from the Knin municipality in 1991 or before - how

 3     many of them had returned to the Knin municipality by end of October

 4     1995?

 5             By "return," I mean returned to live.

 6        A.   The government's recommendation was first to accommodate Croats

 7     who were, at the time, accommodated in hotels.  There were some 1.261

 8     citizens of Kijevo, they were all Croats but one.  At the time they were

 9     accommodated in the bungalows of Resnik or Trogir or somewhere in that

10     area.  And they immediately expressed -- expressed a desire to leave the

11     tourist complex and they returned.  They had previously owned houses, and

12     their village was razed to the ground, and they expressed a wish before

13     the housing commission to be accommodated in the former state-owned

14     apartments and --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you could please --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- those Croats who had expressed

17     their desire to return --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you could please focus on the question.  How many

19     of the Croats that had lived before the war started in 1991 had returned

20     by the end of October to Knin.

21             Ms. Gustafson.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting at this

23     stage but I just needed to double-check.  These questions arose initially

24     from an ECMM report of the 27th of October P822, and in which this

25     witness reports that a figure, if he is going to asked about it now,

Page 23052

 1     perhaps he should be shown that document.  He refers both to the hundred

 2     Serbs and to the numbers of Croats and from -- from where they stem or

 3     are from.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, it's suggested that you ... let's try

 6     to finish within the next couple of minutes.

 7             MR. MISETIC:

 8        Q.   Mr. Pasic, can we -- I'm sorry.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, can we have Exhibit D822.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, I believe it is P822.

11             MR. MISETIC:  P, sorry.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Pasic, you'll see in this document that it reports that

13     most Croats who lived in Knin before 1991 had returned, and that that

14     statement is attributed to you.

15             Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was that -- did you say that at the end of October 1995?

18        A.   I can't see that I said this.  I know the exact number of Croats,

19     segregated by places.  It says there were five and a half thousand people

20     who remained ...

21        Q.   No, I think what it says, Mr. Pasic, is that there were 1300 who

22     were from Knin and there are another 5.500 who are in Knin at that moment

23     but who have roots elsewhere.

24             Was that something that you had said?

25        A.   I suppose so.  I have already told that you a large number of

Page 23053

 1     Croats arrived from Banja Luka, they arrived from Travnik.  They arrived

 2     from Bugojno.  And the reason for their arrival, as I was told, they told

 3     me themselves, was the fact that they could not live together with the

 4     Muslims, and that's why they wanted to return to Croatia.

 5        Q.   Mr. Pasic, my question is this.  First, just by way of background

 6     and I don't know if this is in your statement.  I don't think it is.

 7             After you were the commissioner for Knin until March of 1996, you

 8     continued to be the commissioner for which municipalities?

 9        A.   The date is wrong.  It was not the 4th of September but the

10     9th of September.  Actually the 9th of April, 1996, I was removed from

11     the position of the commissioner of the government of the Republic of

12     Croatia, but on the same day I was appointed a commissioner of the

13     Republic of Croatia for the municipalities of Civljane, Biskupija,

14     Kistanje, and Ervenik.

15        Q.   And how long did you hold that position, until when?

16        A.   I held that position until the 16th of January, 1997.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, we are drifting far away from what

19     apparently what was raised by my questions.  I asked for the appreciation

20     of a number the witness gave at the time.  Now you asked him how many

21     Croats had returned.  We find in this document reported that the witness

22     would have said approximately 1300, and practically all of the Croats.

23     It is not a core issue of this case.  I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but

24     it's not a core issue in this case.  The witness said that this is what

25     he said, and now we're exploring his previous positions.  Either one or

Page 23054

 1     two focussed questions on the matter.  Otherwise, we'll end up far from

 2     what I raised and which was not primarily focussing on figures and

 3     numbers.  But, rather, about an appreciation by the witness.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  If I can just have a minute, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, since it's not a core issue, then I

 8     will not pursue the matter further.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pasic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if it is, I didn't hear you say it's not.  But

11     it's certainly a matter which has some relevance and has been dealt with

12     over in a considerable way.  But if it is not, I expressed as my view

13     that, although there is relevance to the issue, it's not a core issue,

14     and by leaving that, if it is not a core issue, then we'll hear from

15     you --

16             MR. MISETIC:  The reason I qualified that way, Mr. President, is

17     precisely because, as can you appreciate in my position --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You may give it -- you gave -- may give it a higher

19     level of relevance than you could understand from my words and what is

20     the core is still, of course, a concept which is not precisely defined.

21             Mr. Pasic - I'm looking at the parties - this concludes your

22     evidence.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

23     for having answered, for a few days, all the questions that were put to

24     by the parties and by the Bench.  And I wish you a safe return home

25     again.

Page 23055

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  By your leave, I wish

 2     to say that I hope you will believe everything what I said and what I

 3     commented about concerning my interview and previous statement.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I can understand that you have that hope.

 5             We'll have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past 1.00.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.51 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Gwaunza is not available for a very short

10     moment.  The other Judges considered it in the interests of justice to

11     proceed, and it's mainly a procedural matter which I would like to deal

12     with in private session.

13             Could we turn into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23056

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 23057

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             Is the Cermak Defence ready to call its next witness?

 4             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  The next witness is Mr. Cipci,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, while the witness is being brought

 8     in, I would just like to clear up one housekeeping matter which was the

 9     pages of the suspect interview.  I've had a chance to look at more

10     carefully and if the Chamber is inclined to admit that exhibit, which is

11     D1719, in our submission, the six prior pages, so starting at page 57 of

12     that interview, provides the appropriate context, in particular, for the

13     statement of the investigator, where it says, "It seems from what you are

14     saying."

15             Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now pages and videos, may I take it that you

17     want to have this portion of the video then added as well and not just

18     the transcript?

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's up to Your Honours.  I don't -- I don't

20     think the video is necessary.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then, for the context, we could just do with

22     the transcript, Mr. Misetic, would that meet any problems?

23             MR. MISETIC:  Let me, if I may, Mr. President, take a look at the

24     full transcript.  I don't have it with me here in court.  I just have the

25     selection and I will get back to the Chamber in the morning.

Page 23058

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the ball is on your side now again.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And, of course, this -- there were two reasons why

 4     it was marked for identification.  The Chamber will still have to

 5     consider the relevance, whether that's a matter of admissibility or

 6     whether it's a matter of weight, as suggested by Ms. Gustafson.

 7             I see now three counsel at the side of the Prosecution.  Who will

 8     be in charge of the next witness?

 9             MR. WAESPI:  Ms. De Landri.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. De Landri will take the next witness.  Yes,

11     that's on the record then.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon.  Mr. Cipci, could you please

14     remain --

15             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- standing, yes.

17             Mr. Cipci, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

18     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which is

19     now handed out to you by Madam Usher.  And I would like to invite to you

20     make that solemn declaration.

21             If you remain standing when giving that -- yes, the microphone

22     will catch your words.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Cipci.

Page 23059

 1             MS. DE LANDRI:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  The screen reflects that

 2     we're still in private session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh.  Then -- I think in the beginning of the -- I do

 4     not see that on other screens.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have different --

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  I'm sorry for the interruption.  I can confirm we

 8     are in open session.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But our screens still puts us in private or

10     closed session.

11             No, it's -- as a matter of fact, it's the ELMO screen which gives

12     closed session but the video screen is, at this moment, fully public, and

13     that's the one that is broadcasted.

14             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

15             You will first -- Mr. Cipci, you will first be examined by

16     Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay is counsel for Mr. Cermak.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

19                           WITNESS:  IVO CIPCI

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Kay:

22        Q.   Mr. Cipci, don't worry about the microphones.  They're extremely

23     powerful and they will pick up your voice when you speak.

24             Mr. Cipci, is it correct that you made a statement to the Defence

25     for this case, dated the 3rd of September, 2009?

Page 23060

 1        A.   It is correct that I made that statement, which I also signed.

 2             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may we have 2D00740, please.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Cipci, on the right-hand screen you will see in a moment

 4     a copy of that statement in your own language.

 5             MR. KAY:  And if the signature could be shown at the foot of the

 6     document.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise that there that document, Mr. Cipci, as being

 8     the record of interview signed for the Defence?

 9        A.   Yes, this is my signature and the cover page of my statement.  It

10     is precisely the statement I signed.

11        Q.   And I know you have a copy of it in front of you in a plastic

12     folder.  Don't worry about that.  That's just a copy and we'll all be

13     looking at the one on the screen.  If you need to refer to that paper

14     copy, just ask us for permission to do so.  Thank you.

15             MR. KAY:  And if we can go to the last page of the statement.

16        Q.   And do you recognise there your signature next to the date of the

17     3rd of September, 2009?

18        A.   Yes.  The 3rd of September, 2009, and the signature is indeed

19     mine.  I wrote both the date and I affixed the signature.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  And we know that your signature is on each

21     page in between.

22             Did you read through this statement before you signed it?

23        A.   Certainly.  First I read it and then I signed each page.

24        Q.   And in relation to paragraph 13, which is on page 5 in the

25     English, line 23.  So page 5, line 23, in the English.

Page 23061

 1        A.   Very well.

 2        Q.   And if we can have that on the screen in front of you in

 3     Croatian, on the right-hand side.  And we see a sentence containing:

 4     "100 policemen."

 5             In English it reads:

 6             "He came to Knin with his policemen with the first contingent of

 7     100 policemen.  Mr. Sikrica was formally responsible to Mr. Romanic and

 8     he received orders from him."

 9             Is it correct that you want to make a correction, in relation to

10     that sentence?

11        A.   [In English] Yes.  [Interpretation] It is correct that I want to

12     make a small correction in this sentence.

13             On the 5th, in the afternoon, the first contingent of

14     100 policemen was accompanied by Mr. Milkovic who remained there only for

15     a few days and then he was replaced by Mr. Sikrica.  I mention

16     Mr. Sikrica because he spent a longer period of time being in charge of

17     that unit, that is why I mentioned Sikrica rather than Maljkovic.  But in

18     the course of the first few days and the first afternoon, it was

19     Mr. Maljkovic who was with the policemen.

20        Q.   And that's spelt M-a-l-j-k-o-v-i-c.

21        A.   [No interpretation].

22        Q.   Is that correct?

23        A.   [In English] Not.  [Interpretation] Not quite.  It should be

24     M-a-i-l-j.  [In English] L and g together.  Then k-o-v-i-c.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 23062

 1        A.   [Interpretation] Mailjkovic.  And it's not just a plain C but it

 2     is actually Ch in Croatian.  We have a two different versions of it.

 3     They come with a diacritic and then you would have the right last name.

 4     But, in any case, it's irrelevant.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.  We've got that piece of information.

 6             So taking into account that corrections that you have now made

 7     before the Court on that matter in paragraph 13, is everything that you

 8     have said in this statement, to the best of your knowledge and belief,

 9     true and correct?

10        A.   What I stated, I personally assume that everything is correct.

11     However, the truth and a lie are very subjective categories, and what I

12     am claiming at this moment or what I will claim as opposed to what I

13     claimed in the past, I can only say, at the moment, when I stated that, I

14     was convinced that I was telling the truth.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And if I were to ask you today the same questions

16     that you were asked previously, would the information in this statement

17     reflect and be the same as the answers that you have given to the

18     statement?

19        A.   If you were to ask me the identical questions, I would answer

20     them in the identical way.

21             The only difference with regard to my statement that I provided

22     on the 3rd is what I stated at -- previously, with regards to the family

23     names of those who left for Knin on the 5th.  So it wasn't Mr. Sikrica

24     but Mr. Mailjkovic.  And that's the only change that I would made to the

25     answers that I would provide and they would be the same as back then,

Page 23063

 1     when you asked me all those questions and the answers became my

 2     statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cipci, I noticed that you have a natural

 4     inclination of giving rather long answers.  This matter, if would you

 5     have said, I would give the same answers with the correction I just made,

 6     would have sufficient for us to understand fully what meant.

 7             I would invite you to focus very much and to give brief answers.

 8     If any further details are relevant, Mr. Kay will certainly ask you for

 9     those details.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And the witness, having made

12     that statement, I request that this document be made an exhibit.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it was already submitted that there would be no

14     objections.

15             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objections.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the statement of Mr. Cipci would be.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1723.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D1723 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

20             And in relation to this statement, Your Honour, I want to point

21     out a matter which is probably on the record already, but so it's on the

22     trial record.  And that concerns paragraph 24.

23        Q.   You have no need to worry about this, Mr. Cipci, it's a matter of

24     administration.

25             MR. KAY:  A document was referred to by an internal reference

Page 23064

 1     number, OBR 416, that's in fact Exhibit D495, Your Honour, and that

 2     correction was notified.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber received a notification to that extent.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much.  And, Your Honour, also in the

 6     English version, a sentence had not been typed in.  The full version has

 7     been uploaded so that paragraph 30 fully reflects what was said in the

 8     Croatian original that the witness signed.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm looking at the counsel for the

10     Prosecution.  I take it that that is agreed upon.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Mr. Cipci, if we could just look at a part of your statement.

16             MR. KAY:  And I'm turning now, Your Honour, to paragraph 24.

17        Q.   And in paragraph 23, where you deal with a matter concerning

18     passes that were issued by Mr. Cermak.  And you've been shown, when you

19     made your statement, a number of documents that are reflected in the

20     statements, numbers -- Exhibits D497, 498, 494, and Exhibit D495, and

21     Exhibit D496.

22             MR. KAY:  In relation to Exhibit D496, if that could be put on to

23     the screen, please, so that Mr. Cipci can look at the document.

24        Q.   In paragraph 25 of your statement, you refer to the

25     re-establishment of the Split-Knin train line and a number of people

Page 23065

 1     wanting to travel.  And you can see on the document in front of you that

 2     it is from the Split-Dalmatia police administration, dated the

 3     15th of August, 1995, and you can see your name at the end of the

 4     document, and that it is sent to Operative Action Povratak.  And it is

 5     sent to the Ministry of Interior with the subject: Visits and

 6     administration [sic] to the liberated areas.

 7             First of all, Mr. Cipci, do you recognise this document?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And was it a document sent by you to your Ministry of Interior in

10     Zagreb?

11        A.   Yes.  To the office for return.  That was an office within the

12     Ministry of the Interior.

13        Q.   And the office for return, if could you just briefly inform the

14     Court what the nature of that particular office was, what it was

15     concerned with.

16        A.   The office was set up within the Ministry of the Interior and it

17     was headed by the Assistant Minister Josko Moric.  It was supposed to

18     deal with all sorts of communications in the area and evaluate whether

19     all the conditions were in place to abolish passes which were the only

20     relevant documents that allowed people to enter the liberated area.

21             In other words, they oversaw the restoration of normal life in

22     the area, as well as all the other tasks and duties given to them by the

23     minister of the interior.

24        Q.   And we can see from the content of this letter, that you were

25     saying you were being pressured by citizens and displaced persons wishing

Page 23066

 1     to visit the liberated areas, and that the railroad line was restored and

 2     that the railroad line was to transport citizens for free within the next

 3     ten days, and that there is enormous pressure at check-points, because

 4     citizens feel they can travel without any problem.  And you asked:

 5             "Please give us urgent directions how to" -- "as to how we should

 6     act in this newly developed situation."

 7             Can you briefly describe to the Court, then, the problem that you

 8     were experiencing at this time when you wrote this letter and sent it to

 9     the Ministry of Interior?

10        A.   It was not just the problem of people who previously resided in

11     the area and who enjoyed the status of returnees.  There was a great deal

12     of interest among other citizens from the territory of my police

13     administration, which was the county of Split and Dalmatia, to move into

14     that area that had been occupied for years.  They wanted to settle in

15     Knin, to arrive in Knin by way of providing contribution to the

16     liberation of the area, and that's why there was lot of pressure from --

17     on the police administration, the railway administration, because I know

18     it for a fact that all those who wanted to get on the train couldn't.

19     There were too many people who wanted to go to Knin.

20             That's why I sought instructions, because the civilians could

21     pass through my check-points only with passes signed by myself.  I

22     certainly could not issue thousands of passes, because I had very strict

23     criteria as to who could go to the liberated areas at the time.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. KAY:  I had one more question to ask on this document.

Page 23067

 1        Q.   We see handwritten on it:

 2             "Call the Split-Dalmatia police administration and say that

 3     Cermak will annul the passes today."

 4             And do you know what that handwritten reference concerns?

 5        A.   I don't know who wrote this and what that refers to.

 6             As far as I know, Mr. Cermak, based on the previous agreements in

 7     the ministry prior to the beginning of Operation Storm, Mr. Cermak could

 8     not issue passes for my area and for my check-points and he also, by the

 9     same token, could not abolish them.  At the end of the day, I received

10     information from the ministry that passes would no longer be required.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KAY:  And that deals with that matter.

13             Your Honour, there's further questions tomorrow.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Cipci, we have to adjourn for the day.  You have been with us

16     only for a very short moment, but tomorrow further questions will be

17     there for you to answer.  But I'd like, first of all, to instruct you

18     that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony, whether the

19     evidence already given today, or the evidence still to be given tomorrow.

20     So refrain from any conversations on that matter, or any communications.

21             We will adjourn for the day, and we'd like to see you back

22     tomorrow morning, 9.00, because we will resume on the 14th of October,

23     9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.

24                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of

Page 23068

 1                           October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.