Page 22983
1 Tuesday, 13 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that you, Mr. Mikulicic, would like to
12 raise a matter.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Actually, Your Honour, it's me, thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I had Markac Defence, but Mr. Kuzmanovic.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Along the lines of the discussions that we had yesterday
17 regarding statements, interviews and methodology, I wanted to bring to
18 the Trial Chamber's attention two other references. We saw the reference
19 yesterday to Mr. Jarnjak's interview. The first reference is transcript
20 dated December 12th of 2008. Mr. Cayley and I both raised this issue.
21 The transcript number -- page references are 13.631, beginning at line 6,
22 going to 13.634, going to line 13. And I would note, specifically your
23 comments, Mr. President, in this particular colloquy that went on
24 regarding the use -- or regarding the methodology of interviews where you
25 said, and I can't specifically -- don't have the line because I printed
Page 22984
1 it out on my e-mail:
2 "And you would say you would not add the kind of things the
3 investigator added when he did put the questions to the witness at that
4 time, which I would not have taught him if I ever would have given a
5 course of examination of potential witnesses."
6 The second reference is Witness Zganjer, and that was
7 November 12th of 2008, beginning on page 11.603. And there was question
8 and answer regarding investigation methodology at line 15, and the
9 question Mr. Mikulicic asks at line 15 as part of the question is:
10 "He," meaning the investigator, "characterised them in the
11 following way: That the interviews conducted were very poor, that they
12 were not compiled in any sort of format, that the contents of these
13 interviews did not really make a contribution or bring anything in, and
14 that you should not perceive this as criticism leveled against you,"
15 meaning the investigator was telling this to Mr. Zganjer.
16 So I just wanted to add that, Your Honours, to the discussion
17 that occurred yesterday with specific references to witnesses, dates and
18 transcripts.
19 Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
21 Mr. Misetic.
22 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President. I guess this would be a good
23 opportunity, then, with respect to the Jarnjak interview that was shown
24 to the Chamber yesterday, we would like that admitted but not for -- as
25 substantive evidence and not for the truth of the matters asserted in the
Page 22985
1 discussion but, rather, as indicative of methodology and techniques used
2 in those situations, and the probative value being that -- as I have read
3 the Limaj and Popovic decisions referenced on Friday by the Chamber, one
4 of the factors in considering whether to admit Mr. Pasic's 2002 statement
5 concerning the matters which he subsequently changed, but to admit those
6 changed portions as substantive evidence, one of the factors that the
7 Limaj and Popovic Chambers considered was the fact that the Chamber could
8 examine the methodology used in the questioning, because both -- in both
9 circumstances, I believe, the interviews were videotaped. And if in fact
10 the methodology of the 2002 statement is going to be a factor in
11 consideration of admission, then we would submit that the Jarnjak video
12 is probative with respect to methodology and, therefore, we would move to
13 admit it into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I think the -- the probative value
16 of the interview of Mr. Jarnjak is so low in respect of this witness that
17 doesn't meet the threshold for admissibility.
18 It's clear from the witness's answers yesterday that the witness
19 did -- that the interview was conducted in a different manner with him
20 than it was with Mr. Jarnjak, who was interviewed as a suspect. And in
21 particular, the witness made it clear that there was no suggestion that
22 he was involved in any wrong-doing, no suggestion that the witness was
23 involved in any planning or that others were involved in any planning
24 that the witness may not have been involved in, and in light of the
25 different types of interviews and the different way the interviews were
Page 22986
1 conducted, I don't think the Jarnjak interview has a sufficient probative
2 value in this regard.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
5 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President. I believe the Prosecution's
6 argument goes to weight. Obviously we have different arguments. The
7 witness also said that he felt the questions were suggestive and leading,
8 and felt that -- he did not feel comfortable in resisting the suggestions
9 posed to him. Nevertheless, this is argument between the Prosecution and
10 the Defence. We submit that it can be argued at a later date, but with
11 respect to probative value, I believe the Jarnjak video in addition to
12 what Mr. Kuzmanovic raised this morning, which is the Zganjer situation,
13 and I believe it was Witness Turkalj, where the Chamber itself expressed
14 concerns about the techniques used by Mr. Foster, establishes a pattern
15 and that pattern may very well be relevant to the Chamber in its
16 evaluation of whether to admit the portions of the 2002 Pasic statement
17 which at issue here.
18 We would suggest under Rule 89 that it certainly has probative
19 value and there's no reason that it should be excluded.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, brief, please.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm not sure whether Mr. Misetic is suggesting
22 that the Jarnjak interview is relevant to the assessment of the evidence
23 of Mr. Zganjer or Mr. Turkalj; if he is, those interviewed were actually
24 admitted and the Chamber can see them, and there's no need to compare
25 them with any other interview.
Page 22987
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 MR. MISETIC: May I just clarify, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think you tendered the interview in
5 evidence. Ms. Gustafson responded. You had an opportunity to further
6 explain, and now --
7 MR. MISETIC: She's asking whether I'm suggesting something. I'd
8 like to --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's leave it as it is.
10 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is sufficiently informed.
12 Mr. Misetic, has the relevant portion of the interview been
13 uploaded in e-court.
14 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I yesterday expressed some concern as where the
16 beginning it says, This is what we say and it seems that that's what you
17 are saying, which there's at least a suggestion that there has been
18 something prior to that, which is then summarised. I do not know whether
19 that is true or not. But I would like to know --
20 Ms. Gustafson, have you considered whether there are any other
21 portions which, if this video would be admitted into evidence, which you
22 would like to have added for context?
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I did look at it yesterday, but I
24 would need a little more time to determine exactly which pages. If I
25 could get back to the Chamber on that, if the Chamber is inclined to
Page 22988
1 admit this.
2 Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Then for two reasons, the uploaded video will be MFI'd. The
5 first reason being that the Chamber will have to consider whether or not
6 the probative value is such as argued by Ms. Gustafson, that it's fit to
7 be admitted. The second one to give Ms. Gustafson some time to see
8 whether there's any additional portion that should be added for purposes
9 of context.
10 Mr. Registrar.
11 MR. MISETIC: Sorry. Let me just -- if I can assist the
12 Registrar. It's 65 ter 1D2988.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Your Honours, that becomes
14 Exhibit D1719, marked for identification.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 Any other matter to be raised?
17 If not, I think we were at a point that the Chamber had looked at
18 the video, has put some questions, and that you still would like to
19 continue your re-cross.
20 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Pasic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
Page 22989
1 JUDGE ORIE: We will continue to hear your evidence, but I would
2 like to remind you first that you're still bound by the solemn
3 declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony last week.
4 Mr. Misetic, please proceed.
5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 WITNESS: PETAR PASIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning, again, Mr. Pasic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. I'd like to start off this morning by asking you a question
12 following up on a question asked of you by the Prosecutor.
13 You will recall yesterday you were read portions from a report by
14 the Special Rapporteur concerning an allegation that people were being
15 prevented from coming back into Croatia, and you were asked whether had
16 you any reason to question the observations of the Special Rapporteur.
17 And I'd like to call your attention, again, to Exhibit P822, and
18 that is the exhibit where the European Union Monitoring Mission reports,
19 on the 27th and 28th of October, on a meeting with you where you said
20 that 100 Serbs had in fact returned from Serbia by October 27th and that
21 the European Union mission suggests in its report that that is accurate.
22 And the report specifically says:
23 "Indeed, some people are returning."
24 If you look there at paragraph 2(a), the specific quote is:
25 "According to Mr. Pasic, more than 100 have returned from Serbia.
Page 22990
1 The number growing every day."
2 Then there's a comment:
3 "Indeed, some people are returning, but only those with property
4 secured. Team still wait to see when an actual occupant of a house is
5 driven out because the legal owner returns."
6 My question to you is: If in fact there were obstacles at the
7 border so that people couldn't return, how did these 100 Serbs get back
8 into the Knin area from Serbia by the 27th of October?
9 A. As I said yesterday, I did not sense any obstacle for the return
10 of those Serbs who had fled to return to the Republic of Croatia. I
11 specifically say that because the Croatian government enabled those Serbs
12 who were in the Republic of Serbia to receive Croatian documents as proof
13 of their Croatian nationality, in Beli Manastir and Vukovar, and many of
14 them used that opportunity.
15 Q. These 100 or so Serbs that had returned by the 27th of October,
16 do you know what kind of papers - meaning passports, citizenship, et
17 cetera - they had which allowed them to cross back into Croatia?
18 A. Some received their Croatian papers immediately, while other, as
19 far as I know, came with certain refugee IDs which had been issued to
20 them in the Republic of Serbia.
21 Q. Who -- which governmental authority issued these refugee IDs?
22 A. It was issued by the Republic of Serbia, although I don't know
23 which authority. It may have been the UNHCR or someone else. I have to
24 say, though, that a number of Serbs who came back, came back in an
25 organised fashion on a bus with the UNHCR.
Page 22991
1 Q. Okay. I'd like to turn your attention next to Exhibit P2648,
2 which is Mr. Al-Alfi's report of a meeting with you in October.
3 MR. MISETIC: Now -- yes, if we could go to the next page in the
4 B/C/S, please.
5 Q. Now, throughout this report, he refers to you as the mayor. Do
6 you know why he's referring to you as the mayor?
7 A. He was probably not familiar with the term "governmental
8 commissioner."
9 Q. Okay. Well, this is more than two months after your first
10 appearance in Knin and after several meetings -- at least -- I should
11 correct that. After at least one other meeting with Mr. Al-Alfi that
12 we've seen. Did you not, at any opportunity, explain to him that you're
13 not the mayor but the governmental commissioner for an area wider than
14 simply the town of Knin?
15 A. I probably did not. I didn't meet him on many occasions.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. MISETIC: Can we go to paragraph 5 of this document, please.
18 Q. This is -- you were asked some questions about comments made by
19 Mr. Kostovic that are referenced in paragraph 5. What comments did
20 Mr. Kostovic make?
21 A. As far as I knew, Mr. Kostovic, as deputy prime minister,
22 advocated the possibility of a further stay of the remaining Serbian
23 population after Operation Storm. He was probably reacting to a separate
24 UN envoy report and that of Ms. Elisabeth Rehn.
25 Q. Okay. Do you know what it is that Mr. Al-Alfi could have
Page 22992
1 believed was -- strike that question.
2 Let me ask you about paragraph 7 of this document.
3 There's -- he's reporting on a discussion concerning the fact
4 that you may be changed very soon. Are you familiar with the
5 constitutional law on ethnic minorities which was in effect into
6 September of 1995?
7 A. Partially I was. That law was in force, and as far as I know,
8 parts of it were being implemented; whereas, others were not.
9 Q. Are you aware that, in fact, that law required that, pursuant to
10 the 1991 census, the government's commissioner for the Knin area had to
11 be an ethnic Serb?
12 A. It did not necessarily have to be a Serb.
13 Q. Well, what about the chiefs of the Kotar-Knin police
14 administration, or the police station in Knin, did they have to be ethnic
15 Serbs under the law?
16 A. They were Serbs, but I'm not familiar with whether the persons in
17 such positions had to be Serbs.
18 Q. Okay. Let me turn your attention to a different document.
19 MR. MISETIC: Which is P2647.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, the last two questions raise an issue
21 as to the knowledge of this witness of the legislation under which he
22 functioned. I have no clear recollection, as a matter of fact, to the
23 text of this legislation, so in order to be able to assess, could you
24 tell us, I take it that these documents are -- this legislation is in
25 evidence.
Page 22993
1 MR. MISETIC: Yes, it is, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could perhaps assist the Chamber, if
3 you would know. Otherwise we will try to find it.
4 MR. MISETIC: I don't know off the top of my head but I have
5 asked my Case Manager to locate it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
7 MR. MISETIC:
8 Q. You were shown a series of documents yesterday concerning people
9 that applied to you or General Cermak seeking to live in Knin.
10 If we look at the first three names or four names, I guess, on
11 this document, which of these people, if any, were refugees from the area
12 that were living outside of the area at the time this letter was written?
13 A. According to the list, when I look at their last names, it is
14 perhaps only the Vujic person who may have come from Kijevo, originally;
15 whereas, the others did not hail from the area.
16 Q. Were they refugees perhaps from other areas?
17 A. I don't know. Maybe. Personally I never met them.
18 Q. Some of the other documents in this group also discuss companies
19 wanting to move in to the area and having housing for their workers. Is
20 that something that was common at the time, that, if companies moved into
21 the area, that they would ask to you provide housing for workers that may
22 be coming in?
23 A. That possibility did exist and it was used. I have to say, in
24 particular, that this was the case with the Croatian railways, as well as
25 with the various institutions of state authority; that is to say, the
Page 22994
1 judiciary, the educational system, the police, and a letter of that kind
2 arrived from a former factory called Sintal, which is in Oklaj. The
3 municipal head in Promina, whose name, I believe, was Zeljko Dzapo
4 [phoen], asked that housing units be secured for about one or 200 workers
5 who were supposed to initiate the production process within the company.
6 Q. Mr. Pasic, am I correct that you were actually a member of the
7 housing commission that was established after Operation Storm?
8 A. I don't think I was. My legal affairs assistant,
9 Slavko Djakovic, was. Another commission member was Silvana Dumancic,
10 who was also a lawyer.
11 Q. Were you familiar with the work of the housing commission,
12 however, in that area?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was the housing commission charged with making decisions as to
15 which houses could be used to house refugees pursuant to the Law on
16 Temporary Take Over of Property?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And with respect to these decisions, how many people were on the
19 commission, the housing commission?
20 A. The housing commission was defined by a law. The housing
21 commission was composed of the representatives of the commissioner's
22 office of the government of the Croatia, members of the secretary or,
23 rather, the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Defence, the Centre for
24 Social Welfare, and I believe that there was also a representative of the
25 Red Cross. I may have left somebody out, but ...
Page 22995
1 Q. In the work of this housing commission, based on your knowledge
2 of its work, was there a policy of trying to take away homes from Serbs,
3 that you were aware of, and to re-populate their homes with Croats?
4 A. When the Law on Temporary Use of Property owned by displaced or
5 refugeed Serbs was promulgated, that applied to both apartments and
6 houses. I don't have a feeling, I didn't have a feeling then, I don't
7 have it now, that the politicians had any intention of moving in people
8 from a certain area, in larger numbers. Most people came of their own
9 will, spontaneously. And I said yesterday that some of them had to
10 arrive, because when the Serbs left Knin, in Banja Luka and some other
11 cities, the Croats were chased away by them, and they moved into their
12 houses with the words, You have my house, or my apartment, in the place
13 where I come from.
14 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, the answer to your question that you
15 posed about the law is -- it's Exhibit D836 and an amendment is at D900.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
17 MR. MISETIC:
18 Q. Mr. Pasic, I want to go back now to your 2002 statement, and I'm
19 going to ask you a few questions for clarification.
20 MR. MISETIC: This is Exhibit D1706.
21 Q. And I'm referencing the portion that we've discussed many times,
22 which is -- that there's a portion in there that says that you believe
23 the looting and destruction that took place was planned from above. And
24 I know that you've said that you, in fact, did not say that, but let me
25 just ask you a few questions.
Page 22996
1 Did you ever attend any meetings of -- well, let me ask it -- a
2 first question.
3 What do you understand when -- when someone were -- if someone
4 were to say "the top of the government"? What is "the top," in your
5 view?
6 A. "The top of the government" would be the president of the
7 Republic, prime minister, and all the government ministers.
8 Q. Okay. How many meetings did you attend with the president, the
9 prime minister, or the government ministers prior to Operation Storm?
10 A. Prior to Operation Storm, I did not attend a single meeting with
11 the prime minister; I attended a few meetings with Mr. Mate Granic, but
12 that was in 1993 or 1994. In any case, prior to Operation Storm. I also
13 attended one or two meetings with Mr. Ramljak, who, during the course of
14 Operation Storm, was no longer a deputy prime minister ...
15 Q. Okay. In your discussions with Mr. Granic or Mr. Ramljak, did
16 you ever get any impression that there was a plan to allow looting and
17 destruction to take place if, in fact, Croatia ever retook the so-called
18 Krajina?
19 A. No, never. And if you will allow me, I would like to clarify a
20 situation. It concerns my meeting with Mr. Granic.
21 In 1993, humanitarian aid was sent to the Croats who resided in
22 Knin. That aid went through a Zagreb-based company called Unikonzum. He
23 insisted, when it came to the settlements of Potkonje and Nunic, which
24 was still -- which were still inhabited by both Croats and Serbs, he
25 insisted on the reciprocity of sending humanitarian aid. For example,
Page 22997
1 in -- if there were 50 Croats in Nunic, he insisted, and that's the only
2 way humanitarian aid could be sent if humanitarian and -- aid was sent
3 for 50 Serbs, although there may have been more of them living in the
4 area at the time. But the point that I'm driving home with this
5 illustrations is the fact that the reciprocity in providing humanitarian
6 aid to the area was respected.
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what orders were issued within the
8 Ministry of the Interior prior to Operation Storm concerning policing in
9 the newly liberated areas?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any orders that were issued within
12 the Croatian Army prior to Operation Storm concerning prevention of crime
13 in the newly liberated areas?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Speaking generally, do you have any specific basis to know, based
16 on documents, conversations, or meetings that you attended, what the
17 Croatian -- the top of the Croatian leadership intended with respect to
18 crime, whether crime commission or crime prevention, in the newly
19 liberated areas, after Operation Storm?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, in that same paragraph on page 8, which is on B/C/S page 12
22 of your statement, after the sentence that says, "I believe that the
23 looting and destruction that took place was planned from above," it says:
24 "It was anarchy in Knin. Only the president could have stopped
25 it. Despite my suggestion to Cermak at one of the meetings that it
Page 22998
1 wouldn't look good if the president saw all the destruction and burning,
2 it was still continuing when he came to Knin."
3 My question -- and again, Mr. Pasic, I understand your position
4 today with respect to this paragraph, but I need to ask you this question
5 anyway. Can you explain the logic in this paragraph because the
6 beginning of the paragraph says the looting and destruction you believe
7 was planned from above, you've explained that "above" would have included
8 the president. Then it says:
9 "Only the president could have stopped it," and that you said,
10 "... it wouldn't look good if the president saw all the destruction and
11 burning."
12 So my -- I -- can you help me reconcile how, on the one hand,
13 sentence 1 suggests that President Tudjman would have been involved in
14 planning the destruction and burning; and sentence 3 says that you didn't
15 think it would be a -- it would be good for the president to see the
16 destruction and burning?
17 I'm not sure I understand the logic.
18 A. The logic is clear. I believe that I did say that the president
19 couldn't. However, I believe that this is a mistake. That's why it says
20 only the president could have prevented.
21 The president could not have prevented anything. I confirm that
22 the situation was tantamount to partial anarchy, and in one conversation
23 with Mr. Cermak, I said it wouldn't be good for the president of the
24 Republic to see smoke and fire burning -- fires burning around Knin, as
25 he was addressing the citizens of Knin.
Page 22999
1 Q. I'm not asking about sentence 2, about whether the president
2 could or couldn't have stopped it. This goes more to what actually took
3 place at the interview in 2002, if can you recall this specific portion
4 of the discussion you had with Mr. Foster, okay?
5 How can it be that -- can you explain who said what, because
6 sentence 1 suggests that President Tudjman would have been involved in
7 planning the looting and destruction. Sentence 3 of the same
8 paragraph has you saying that it wouldn't look good if the president saw
9 all the destruction and burning.
10 So who said what in the -- can you recall how this paragraph got
11 into your statement, and can you reconcile the first sentence with the
12 third sentence?
13 A. I don't know how this was recorded, but I can't reconcile one
14 with the other. They contradict each other. If the president could
15 prevent looting or arson, and he didn't, because he never planned it, I
16 would not have stated that it wouldn't be good for the president to see
17 the destruction and arson or any such thing.
18 Q. Going to page 4 of your statement.
19 MR. MISETIC: This is B/C/S page 6.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, the last answers are puzzling me.
21 You said -- let me just ...
22 It is on the basis of contradiction that you said that you
23 confirmed, if I understand you well, that, during the interview, you said
24 that it would -- wouldn't be good for the president to see the
25 destruction and arson or any such thing.
Page 23000
1 Is that well understood?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Did you -- you were referring to a certain
4 conversation with Mr. Cermak. Do you remember at what point in time was
5 it when the president would come to the area; and, if so, what visit was
6 planned which made you say this to Mr. Cermak?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had several conversations with
8 Mr. Cermak about the situation in the liberated area. We both expressed
9 our dissatisfaction with some of the security issues. I believe that
10 this was on the eve of the president's arrival on the train, when he was
11 to stop in Knin on -- on his way from Zagreb to Split.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said that wouldn't be good for him to
13 see all that. Was there any way to prevent him from seeing smoke and ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was very difficult to
15 prevent. He could not see smoke, but the question was how to prevent the
16 burning of the houses.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So you would say there was no smoke but would -- you
18 had to prevent any burning so that the president would not be confronted
19 with any smoke and that he -- therefore, the situation should be such
20 that there was not even smoke to be seen when he would travel on this
21 train through the area.
22 Is that how I have to understand your testimony?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please do not understand it that
24 way.
25 I thought that it would be good for the president not to see any
Page 23001
1 smoke, and also that there was no arson. He may have seen cases of
2 arson, as he was travelling on -- on -- by train from Zagreb to Split.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to understand, then, what you are saying.
4 You say, It would be good for him not to see it. At the same
5 time, you say there may have been smoke, so he would see it, unless -- I
6 have difficulties in understanding exactly what you mean.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it should be
8 difficult. When I said that the president -- that it wouldn't be good
9 for the president to see smoke, what I meant was that it would actually
10 be good if there had been no arson or smoke, irrespective of the
11 president's presence or anybody else's presence in the area.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But there was smoke and arson; so, therefore, of
13 course, it would be good if he wouldn't see it. But since it was there,
14 just looking out of the window would have -- so I'm trying to understand
15 the gist of this remark.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gist of this is the fact that I
17 said that it would be good for the president not to see smoke and fire.
18 This also leads to something else, and that other thing is that it
19 should -- it would be good to stop and prevent the burning of abandoned
20 properties and houses.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And there was a need to stop it and to further
22 prevent the burning of abandoned property and houses, if I understand you
23 well.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
Page 23002
1 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Let me just follow up, Mr. Pasic.
4 Did you think that President Tudjman would be angry if he saw
5 fire and smoke?
6 A. I supposed that he would have been dissatisfied if he knew what
7 the real situation on the ground was, if he learned what the situation on
8 the ground was.
9 Q. Well, you -- I want to make sure that we're talking about what
10 you supposed, in August 1995, when you said at the time that it wouldn't
11 be good -- it wouldn't look good if the president saw all the destruction
12 and burning. What did -- how did you think the president -- at the time,
13 in August 1995, how did you think the president would react if he saw all
14 the destruction and burning?
15 A. I think that he would have expressed his dissatisfaction. I
16 believe that he would go through the government of the Republic, or
17 through the ministries to react, in order to have the situation improved.
18 Q. When you say that the president would have reacted through the
19 ministries in order to have the situation improve, did you think at that
20 time that the president could have called for new people to be brought in
21 to -- to get the situation under control?
22 A. I don't think that it was him but it was somebody else who did
23 that, and what was done was that, after that, I don't know when, not
24 immediately after the freedom train passed through Knin, the number of
25 the members of the Ministry of the Interior in the territory of the city
Page 23003
1 of Knin was increased, or, rather, in the territory that fell under the
2 jurisdiction of the commissioner of the government of the Republic of
3 Croatia for Knin. And also the police forces were replenished partly
4 with officers from the county of Primorje and Gorski Kotar, and I believe
5 that members of the Croatian MUP arrived from Varazdin county as well.
6 Q. Just to wrap up this issue to go back to what my original
7 question was about this paragraph. If, in fact, I think in August of
8 1995, you were concerned that the president would be dissatisfied by what
9 he saw on the ground, then, can you make any sense of the sentence in
10 that paragraph that suggests that in fact President Tudjman would have
11 been involved in planning those crimes?
12 A. No, not at all.
13 Q. Okay. Now, going to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Have you finished with this subject?
15 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, do I have to understand your testimony
17 that if President Tudjman would not have seen the smoke with his own
18 eyes, he would have been unaware of what happened on the ground, that he
19 not have known about the burning and that it was through his personal
20 observation that he would learn about it?
21 MR. KAY: Your Honour, shouldn't there really be some foundation
22 for that, with respect.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he said it would not be good if he would see
24 it, and -- let me, Mr. -- from the follow-up questions, you'll --
25 Could you please answer the question?
Page 23004
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
2 The president did not have to come to Knin personally or pass
3 through Knin in order to become aware of the situation. He had a lot of
4 other ways at his disposal to get informed about the situation on the
5 ground.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So whether he would see the smoke at that
7 moment or not would not really change his knowledge.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that would not have
9 changed anything. He could have obtained information in other ways.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So seeing the smoke would not have caused his
11 dissatisfaction because it did not add substantially to his knowledge.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how he would have
13 felt, but if his feelings were like mine, then he would not have felt
14 comfortable with what was going on.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Irrespective of what he saw, because you said
16 that he would have other means to know.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I start from the president's
18 letter, which was published a few days or maybe on the eve of
19 Operation Storm. In that letter, he invited and appealed to the citizens
20 of the Serb ethnicity who were Croatian citizens to remain in his homes
21 [as interpreted], that peace and normal life was guaranteed to them. I
22 believe that this shows that the president of the Republic did not have
23 any intention of causing the events to evolve in the way they did.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you gained the impression that more
25 people were sent to Knin after the visit of the president, which suggests
Page 23005
1 that you considered his personal observation to be a factor in sending
2 more people to Knin.
3 Is that correctly understood?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I put it quite the
5 same way. And if I did, that's not what I meant.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then tell me -- I'll try to find ...
7 You said you believed that he would go through the government of
8 the Republic or through the ministries to react, in order to have the
9 situation improved. And this, on the basis of an expression of
10 dissatisfaction after he would have seen the smoke. That's at least how
11 I understood it.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I presume that the
13 president of the Republic on that day did not even see smoke. Perhaps
14 there may have been arson elsewhere, sufficiently far away for him not to
15 be able to see it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: On what is that presumption based, Mr. Pasic?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which one? The last one?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said you presumed that the president on
19 that day did not even see smoke.
20 Are you talking about the Knin area or just the town of Knin?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he did not see drills of smoke,
22 then I had in mind the area of the town of Knin and along the railroad
23 that goes further on to Split.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And you not expect the president to see any smoke
25 close to the railway on which he was travelling?
Page 23006
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He may have, and then he may have
2 not seen any.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any recent burning of houses close
4 to the railway on the day the freedom train travelled through the region?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then specifically ask you whether you think
7 that burning of houses in Grubori, just before the arrival of the freedom
8 train, would have been visible from that train?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no way that one could see
10 Grubori from the train or from any railway station.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And the smoke from Grubori?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With difficulty, because the
13 distance is at least 10 kilometres, and the lie of land is such that it
14 makes it impossible for one to see.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
17 MR. MISETIC:
18 Q. Mr. Pasic, what sources of information did President Tudjman have
19 about burning and looting, specifically?
20 A. I don't know what information he had. I did not send him any
21 information. I don't know who else could have warned the republican
22 president of the events in the field.
23 Q. Then can I ask you: How do you know what the president knew or
24 didn't know before he took the freedom train to Knin?
25 A. I don't know what he knew before he boarded.
Page 23007
1 Q. My question is specifically, in your statement, with respect to
2 this conversation where you said you told General Cermak that it wouldn't
3 look good if the president saw all the destruction and burning, at that
4 time, was it your belief that the president would be better informed once
5 he got to Knin?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Then what would it matter if the president saw all the
8 destruction and burning? Why would you tell General Cermak it wouldn't
9 look good if the president saw it? If he already knows it, then who
10 cares if the president saw it or not?
11 A. It is difficult for me to say now why I said that. I felt the
12 need to say that it would not have been good for the president of the
13 Republic to see that, irrespective of the fact that it was likely, that
14 through, other sources, he could have been informed of the situation in
15 the field.
16 Q. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Pasic, let me just put it to you,
17 you didn't want the president to see it because you were concerned that
18 he would have a negative reaction to seeing burning, and that's why you
19 mentioned that to General Cermak. Correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 MR. MISETIC: Now, if we can go to page 4 of this statement.
22 Q. You say, for example, you would send reports -- you talk about
23 your relationship to Mr. Mijic and Mr. Romanic. You say you had a good
24 relationship with Mr. Mijic.
25 "I would personally send reports to Milos Mihic and Romanic, and
Page 23008
1 after they had gone to Zvonko Gambiroza, about citizens who were abused
2 and when crimes were reported to me. But nothing was done about them."
3 And then in the next paragraph:
4 "The police coordinators who were sent down from the ministry
5 were in control of the police. That's why they were sent down. Either
6 they couldn't or wouldn't do anything about the looting, or perhaps they
7 had been told to keep their eyes closed."
8 Now, what is the basis -- I know, again, we keep in mind your
9 clarifications and corrections, so I'm aware of them, Mr. Pasic. But
10 would you have had any reason to know what a police coordinator was or
11 wasn't told to do?
12 A. The word "coordinator" means that they had to -- a consultative
13 role in the work of the police in the town of Knin and the district of
14 Knin.
15 Q. Okay. Well, in light of your good relationship with Mr. Mijic,
16 who is the police chief of the Knin police, and your relationship with
17 Mr. Romanic, who is the chief of police of the entire Kotar, did they
18 ever tell you that they had been told to keep their eyes closed?
19 A. No.
20 Q. With respect to crimes that you reported to them, did they ever
21 tell you whether they were doing something about the crimes that you were
22 reporting to them?
23 A. I think they said that it was also clear from certain earlier
24 reports that a number of perpetrators were brought in and interrogated.
25 I don't know how the rest of that procedure developed though.
Page 23009
1 Q. If Mr. Mijic and Mr. Romanic had encountered some sort of
2 pressure not to investigate or prevent crime -- well, let me ask the
3 first question.
4 Did they ever tell you that they had received any kind of
5 pressure to either not investigate crime that took place or not to
6 prevent crime that might take place in the future?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with them as to why they were
9 having problems with the security situation on the ground? Was there --
10 do you recall any conversations where they said, We're having trouble
11 because of a certain reason or reasons?
12 A. I did discuss those issues with them. The conclusion was always
13 that the area was very large with a great number of settlements, as well
14 as with many access roads, and, at the same time, that they had too few
15 policemen.
16 Q. When did these discussions take place?
17 A. Frequently. We would speak in the morning, then during the
18 meetings called by them or by myself, or if we ever met in the field or
19 in the town itself. We would always be discussing those problems.
20 Q. The next issue is on the role of the military commanders.
21 Do you recall at any time through August or September 1995 that
22 anyone said at any of these meetings that you attended that, The problem
23 is we need to get in touch with General Gotovina to have him solve these
24 problems?
25 A. No, never.
Page 23010
1 Q. Did anyone suggest going to General Cervenko or President Tudjman
2 to ask that something be done along the military line?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If, in fact, the problems in the area were perceived to be
5 because the command line wasn't functioning, do you think that someone,
6 at some point, would have said, We need it get in touch with someone at
7 the top of the command line to see if they can fix the problem.
8 A. I'm not an expert to be able to assess the hierarchy and the
9 chain of command and whether it functioned disjointedly. The chain of
10 command is simply not an area in which I can discuss matters.
11 Q. Mr. Pasic, at page 8 of your statement in English, which is
12 page 12 in the B/C/S, there's a sentence attributed to you that says:
13 "I was hoping that I would be able to help both Croats and Serbs,
14 but that was made impossible by the policies and those in power."
15 Now, you've spoken about President Tudjman. You've spoken about
16 General Cermak, Mr. Mihic, Mr. Romanic and yourself. Who would have been
17 in power to make it impossible to help both Croats and Serbs?
18 A. I don't think there was such a force which, at that moment, could
19 have helped either one group or the other. Throughout the war, I
20 followed the plight of both peoples. At first, I followed the plight of
21 expelled Croats who had been driven out of Knin by my compatriots, the
22 Serbs. After that, it was difficult for me to watch and follow the
23 plight of my ethnic community, which was significantly reduced in the
24 area. Many of that group simply left. It was -- happened because when
25 the Serbs were destroying the property of Croats, they were also
Page 23011
1 destroying parts of themselves. They failed to understand that, by
2 burning, killing and expelling, they may have caused a turn of events
3 which would be directed at them some day. They did not realise that the
4 property was a part of the state, irrespective of the fact whether the
5 owner was a Croat or a Serb.
6 If I may, while we're on the topic of prevention, I would say
7 that it was difficult to rein in a person, whether that person belonged
8 to the Croatian Army, the military, or if he was just an ordinary
9 citizen. If, after five years of expulsion, he returned to his home, and
10 upon his return, he came across a pile of stone out of which a fig tree
11 rose, who could have stopped such a person to repeat those actions, which
12 have caused his plight initially?
13 I simply cannot say anything to try and defend such behaviour. I
14 condemn it, but I understand it.
15 Q. Okay. Mr. Pasic, while we are on that page, I did want to ask
16 you, if you could just explain one event on this page. There's three
17 paragraphs beneath the paragraph we were just looking at. It says:
18 "I remember that I was with my deputy on one occasion when we
19 caught a military policeman stealing equipment from a factory. We took
20 him to the military police but nothing happened."
21 Do you recall such an incident, and, if so, can you explain how
22 you and your deputy could have, what appears to be, arrested a military
23 policeman?
24 A. My deputy or my assistant was Ivan Barisic. He was an engineer,
25 and before the war, before he had been expelled from Knin, he worked in
Page 23012
1 the screw factory there. We went to the tool work-shop of the factory,
2 since he was interested in it at the time. I wasn't very familiar with
3 that facility, but we came across a member of the Croatian military
4 police. This remains etched in my memory. I think his name was either
5 Baturina or Badurina, and together with him we went to see Mr. Orsulic.
6 We reported his behaviour. I don't know what the consequences were, but
7 I could see at the time that he was simply taking away stuff he would
8 never need. I don't know what followed though.
9 Q. Okay. The statement says --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I notice that on your previous question
11 there was a long answer which had hardly to do anything with your
12 question. Are you -- do you want an answer or are you just satisfied
13 that the witness --
14 MR. MISETIC: I thought he did --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- tells us a lot of things but without giving an
16 answer to your question.
17 MR. MISETIC: I thought he did give me an answer to the question,
18 but ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he gave an answer -- well.
20 You asked him about the policies and those in power. I didn't
21 hear anything about policies and power, but, rather --
22 MR. MISETIC: I can go back --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- wide story -- well, I do not know. if you
24 consider that your question has been answered, then, of course, I'd leave
25 to that. I just observed that I didn't gain the impression that I heard
Page 23013
1 an answer to what I understood to be your question.
2 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
3 Q. Mr. Pasic, then, let's go back to that question.
4 Do you know of anyone specifically who was in power who was
5 trying to prevent you from being able to help Croats and Serbs?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know or recall how that statement got into your witness
8 statement?
9 A. I don't know how.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you say it, Mr. Pasic, or didn't you say that,
11 either confirming a question, or is it just invented by those who
12 interviewed you? Or did you say a thing of this kind?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I said anything of
14 the sort. Something like that could not have happened, as I explained.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, perhaps always, if we are referring to
16 his statement, we first verify whether the witness thinks that this is
17 something of the sort he said, because, to explore the further basis, if
18 he wouldn't have said that, doesn't make much sense.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Pasic, with respect to the issue of the military policeman
22 that you referred to Mr. Orsulic, it says:
23 "We took him to the military police but nothing happened."
24 That's at least what it says in the English.
25 Did you physically take this military policeman to the military
Page 23014
1 police?
2 A. He went there with us. Neither me nor Mr. Barisic needed to use
3 any force, and I couldn't order him to follow us. Simply as if nothing
4 had happened, he accompanied us. He didn't take anything on that
5 occasion, because we prevented him. And after that, I simply don't know
6 what happened. I didn't have any contact with Mr. Orsulic about that
7 particular event.
8 Q. So you came upon him, you -- he wanted to steal things but you
9 prevented it; and then he voluntarily walked with you to the military
10 police command?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Pasic, I just have two short areas to cover with you. The
13 first is, I'd like to show you a video and ask that you confirm the
14 video.
15 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, this is 65 ter 1D2981.
16 Q. And it is referred -- you referred to this in your statement but
17 this is the actual video of your call to the Serbian population on the
18 5th of August.
19 MR. MISETIC: It's broadcast on Croatian state television.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Mr. Petar Pasic is going to have a
22 lot of work to do soon. He's the Croatian government commissioner for
23 Knin.
24 "Petar Pasic: I would like to convey my sincere congratulations
25 to the leadership on bringing the decision to undertake a decisive
Page 23015
1 military police action with the aim of reintegrating the occupied areas
2 and reaching the internationally recognised borders of the Republic of
3 Croatia. I would also like to congratulate all those who participated in
4 the brilliantly conducted action. I expect that Croatia and its military
5 police and police forces, as well as current government, will demonstrate
6 all of their democratic strength and will in these historic times, which
7 will be crucial particularly for the citizens, for Croatian citizens of
8 Serb nationality, to remain in their homes as loyal citizens to whom the
9 state of Croatia will guarantee all constitutional rights belonging to
10 them.
11 "I appeal to you once again, stay. Remain calm and wait for the
12 Croatian authority. Today is the day of your victory."
13 MR. MISETIC:
14 Q. Mr. Pasic, is that the statement that you read out on Croatian
15 state television on the 5th of August, 1995?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances, how it came about that you
18 were allowed to appeal to the Croatian citizens of Serb nationality to
19 say in their homes?
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I'm just --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: I don't understand how these questions arise from
23 the cross-examination.
24 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.
25 Mr. Misetic.
Page 23016
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I was -- understood that I had a
2 little leeway in my re-cross, and this would have been something that I'm
3 using with respect to the 2002 statement.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: The letter was tendered by Mr. Kay and there's
5 no -- this letter and this subject isn't addressed by the witness in any
6 of his corrections, so I'm not sure it relates to the leeway that
7 Mr. Misetic is referring to.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I think that was given to you at a
9 certain context, that is, that you would not have to cross-examine the
10 witness on matters which he changed at a later stage, but if that would
11 be challenged by the Prosecution, then you would still have an
12 opportunity to deal with those matters.
13 That was the context in which, I think, I said we would not be
14 generous but liberal.
15 MR. MISETIC: Yes, but --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. MISETIC: It wasn't related to that very narrow point.
18 However, there was an issue raised as to policy of the state, and what I
19 wanted to explore with him now is the contrast between saying there was a
20 policy of the state on the one hand, and on other hand, going on national
21 television on the 5th, expressing the exact opposite policy, and to
22 explore how it came about and with whom, if anyone, this --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. MISETIC: -- presentation on national television was
25 coordinated. And it goes directly to the issue of whether there was a
Page 23017
1 policy.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you may put a few questions to the
4 witness in relation to this video.
5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Mr. Pasic, did you discuss -- prior -- who did you have a
7 conversation with prior to the -- your appearance on national television
8 to discuss going on national television and issuing such an appeal?
9 A. I did not discuss that with anybody, anybody from the state
10 authorities or county authorities or any other authorities. Whatever I
11 said and whatever you heard me saying were my words, the words that I
12 felt at the time, that I still feel, and that I will -- would feel
13 tomorrow. I believe that I shared the joy of a number of Croatian
14 people, as well as the citizens of Knin. I believe that I shared the joy
15 of many citizens in the so-called Republika Srpska Krajina, which were
16 awaiting for the full -- very well.
17 Q. Mr. Pasic, I think -- I hope there is no misunderstanding between
18 us. I didn't mean to suggest that somebody told you what to say. What I
19 meant was, did you have a conversation with someone to say, I would like
20 to go on TV and issue an appeal?
21 A. No. Croatian TV approached me, and I, on my own, and I repeat,
22 without anybody's prior instructions, provided the statement that I did.
23 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I ask that 65 ter 1D2981 be marked
24 and I tender it into evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
Page 23018
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1720.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 Could I ask you one question.
6 Did you write down the text before you spoke it on television?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I read it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you had written it down yourself.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had written it down myself, like
10 I do all of my texts. And since I always have stage fright before any
11 appearance, just like have I now, I would not have been able to deliver
12 the speech if I hadn't written it down.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
14 MR. MISETIC:
15 Q. This is my last question, Mr. Pasic.
16 MR. MISETIC: If we could Exhibit P953 on the screen, please.
17 Q. And it's just one follow-up question on the issue of housing in
18 Knin.
19 MR. MISETIC: It's P953.
20 Q. Mr. Pasic, this is a report of the ECMM dated 9 October 1995, and
21 this deals with, amongst other things, there was at paragraph 2,
22 discusses:
23 "Team Knin today had a meeting scheduled with the Housing
24 Committee of the Knin mayor's office."
25 Can you tell us what that might refer to? Did your office have a
Page 23019
1 housing committee?
2 A. Yes, to the previous question, I answered that the city of Knin
3 had a housing commission, and president of that commission was my deputy
4 for legal affairs, Mr. Slavko Djakovic.
5 The housing commission and the decisions that it carried out were
6 in the hands of Silvana Dumancic, who had a degree in law, and members of
7 the commission were the employees of the Ministry of the Interior, the
8 Ministry of Defence, and the Centre for Social Welfare.
9 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to paragraph numbered 5, which is
10 page 2 in the English.
11 Q. This paragraph discusses a meeting at the Tvik factory that the
12 ECMM had and it discusses the role of the Tvik factory in returning
13 economic development in the area. They had a discussion with the manager
14 of the Tvik factory, and if we go down, it says towards the middle of
15 that paragraph --
16 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn the page in the B/C/S, please.
17 Q. Actually in -- it says in paragraph B, there's a lack of skilled
18 manpower. C is the big problem is the housing for the employees. And
19 then towards the middle of the paragraph it says:
20 "The possibility of Serbs to work on Tvik, demand for labour will
21 not exceed 400, and a few Serbs will be employed. It is no problem to
22 get unqualified employees, but Tvik is in big need of experts. Some of
23 them will come from Zadar and even from Bosnia. He asks if the EU is
24 willing to help them to organise a training course ... to get
25 well-skilled personnel."
Page 23020
1 And then the comment by the ECMM is:
2 "Housing problem is paramount; nobody will come to work without
3 this problem solved."
4 Now, was there, Mr. Pasic, in your recollection and your
5 understanding and knowledge of the working of the housing commission, a
6 problem in bringing skilled labour into the area, because there was a
7 lack of housing for people to come from outside of the Sector South to
8 work within the newly liberated areas?
9 A. I believe that there was no lack of housing. I believe that
10 there are still a lot of empty apartments in Knin, even today. And if
11 we're talking about labour force, professionals, then I would like to say
12 that a lot of people who worked in companies such as Vijak had to leave
13 Travnik, Bugojno, and other places, and they started working in the
14 factory in Knin.
15 Q. Well, if -- if the Law on Temporary Take Over of Property had not
16 been passed and if the Law on Socially Owned Flats had not been passed,
17 would there still have been a lot of housing to employ skilled workers?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I think it -- that question is both
20 speculative, and with respect to the second law, there's no foundation
21 that the witness is even aware of that law, let alone its substance.
22 Thank you.
23 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, he has testified that he is familiar
24 with the work of the housing commission which was part of the town of
25 Knin or mayor's office, depending on whether you believe the ECMM or how
Page 23021
1 the witness has characterised it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What you're actually asking is about what the effect
3 of the legislation was on the existing situation.
4 MR. MISETIC: Well, I'm actually just trying to clarify the
5 witness's last answer. He says there was a lot of housing. Does he mean
6 that in terms of just structures that are on the ground or does he mean
7 they were available --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask the witness then first whether he could
9 quantify that so that we know what we are talking about.
10 Could you tell us if you said there was no lack of housing?
11 Could you explain how many houses were there, for whom?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I couldn't give you the
13 exact number of houses, but I believe that there were 4 to 5.000, and
14 again, I'm not sure that there were 4 to 5.000 apartments. The Vijak
15 factory had 3500 employees, and I assume that at its disposal it had at
16 least 10 to 1200 housing units for its employees. And the other
17 companies were no different, in that respect.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You said there were 4 to 500 apartments free to be
19 occupied ...
20 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I believe it is 4 to 5.000.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- I thought -- 4 to 5.000 apartments in
22 Knin alone?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that that's correct. We
24 were talking about 400 employees, as far as I could understand your
25 question. 400 people could find employment in -- in the Vijak factory.
Page 23022
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, if I could just clarify something
2 for the Chamber, and I apologise if the Chamber is also aware of it.
3 Vijak and Tvik, I believe, are synonymous. But perhaps the witness can
4 clarify.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Vijak and Tvik, is that the same
6 company or ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Tvik is the abbreviation that
8 stands for the factory for the production of nuts and bolts in Knin.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you said there were 4 to 5.000 apartments
10 in Knin available for housing. Is that ...
11 That's your testimony?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And had there been a lot of construction, new
14 apartments, after the Republic of Serbian Krajina had been established?
15 You -- you lived in the area. Was there a lot of new apartments built
16 over the last few years?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid I have to
18 correct you. I -- since 1990, I have not lived in Knin. I was born
19 there, but I resided and worked in Sibenik. During the Krajina
20 authorities there were no jobs --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just stop you there for a second.
22 The reason why I'm asking is the following. I think that in the
23 1990 census there were some -- little bit over 3.000, perhaps 3.300
24 households. So therefore, the number of 4 to 5.000 apartments being
25 available comes as a bit as a surprise to me.
Page 23023
1 Therefore, I'm exploring with you whether this number is -- is
2 based on what?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that was my assumption.
4 First of all, the last census was in 1991, and, at that time, the city of
5 Knin -- the city itself, had between 12.000 and 15.000 inhabitants. And
6 I therefore assumed that given the fact that the JNA had its housing
7 stock, the Croatian railways had its housing stock and so on and so
8 forth, there was also the medical centre and hospital and all the others.
9 That's what I based my assumptions on. I may have been mistaken, but ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Misetic, any further questions for the
11 witness?
12 I'm also looking at the clock. I -- of course, 15 minutes ago I
13 thought we would be done in one or two minutes but ...
14 MR. MISETIC: So did I, Mr. President. If I could just, then,
15 have the break and I may be finished, and if I have anything, it will be
16 two minutes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Two minutes.
18 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: With the apologies to interpreters and all those who
20 are assisting us.
21 Mr. Pasic, we will first have a break, and we'll resume at
22 quarter past 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.48 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please proceed.
Page 23024
1 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President. I have no further questions
2 for the witness.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pasic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Mikulicic.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, since Mr. Misetic explored my topic,
7 I will have no questions to the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.
9 Mr. Kay, I think, then, you have an opportunity to re-examine the
10 witness.
11 MR. KAY: No re-examination.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No re-examination, which --
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: I have no more questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- means ...
15 Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions for you, Mr. Pasic.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE GWAUNZA: I want to ask something relating to your duties
18 in Knin at the time that both you and Mr. Cermak were there.
19 Were there any occasions when your duties overlapped, and, if the
20 answer is yes, how was the problem dealt with?
21 A. There was no overlapping. The commissioner's work did not
22 overlap with the work of General Cermak, who was garrison commander.
23 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Thank you. Very briefly, how would you describe,
24 then, the way your duties and his duties correlated.
25 A. My duties were connected with the work and programme of the
Page 23025
1 ministry of the administration and justice of the Republic of Hrvatska,
2 which means that my work fell within the purview of local administration
3 and self-government. In our country the work of a city or a local
4 self-government determined my authorities and the way I worked.
5 As soon as I arrived in Knin, I had to create conditions for the
6 life of people in the city of Knin. This primarily meant bringing
7 electricity into town. There was no drinking water, and I also had to
8 provide people with adequate accommodation, if they had expressed desire
9 to settle in Knin, or those Croats who had been expelled in 1990 and 1991
10 and were accommodated in hotel villages in Solaris, Primosten and Vodica,
11 or in the capital, Zagreb.
12 I believe that some of the duties that I mentioned were carried
13 out even better than in other areas liberated during Operation Storm, but
14 it is not for me to talk about that.
15 Within a very short period of time, we reconstructed and put into
16 operation a nursery and a kindergarten for young families, and in the
17 former building of a primary school, we restored the work of the Knin
18 primary school because a lot of school children had returned to Knin.
19 Soon after that, we also opened a secondary school.
20 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Thank you, Mr. Pasic. If I could interrupt you,
21 I think have you answered my question. Thank you.
22 A. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.
24 JUDGE KINIS: Mr. Pasic, continuing previous question what you
25 respond just -- I'm a bit confused about your answer, because when I'm
Page 23026
1 read your statement in -- given to Prosecution in 2002, and particularly
2 page 4 and the paragraph which starts:
3 "As far as I know, Cermak was there to assist the civil
4 authorities."
5 And then you mention:
6 "He would direct me to organise the feeding of people which took
7 place where Cermak had his office."
8 We heard numerous evidence here that Cermak also is dealing with
9 the same issues like you, electricity, water supply, and you told that
10 there is no overlapping, or what kind of relations do you have between
11 you and Cermak? It's still not clear for me.
12 A. When I arrived in Knin as the commissioner of the government of
13 the Croatia, and I came from Sibenik, I have to tell you that there was a
14 big difference between being the commissioner in exile in Knin, which
15 means you were not in Knin, and the situation was even more difficult
16 when we -- once we arrived in Knin.
17 I repeat, Mr. Cermak had his powers, I had my powers. As far as
18 General Cermak is concerned, I would like to say that the commissioner's
19 office for Knin in exile did not have enough resources and staff to deal
20 with the problems that occurred after Operation Storm. And let me say
21 once again, that we enjoyed General Cermak's full help. Without him,
22 many things would not have been done and resolved in a quality way, as I
23 have already told to Madam Judge.
24 Let me repeat, he had his powers, I had my powers,
25 and our cooperation and mutual assistance was at a very high level, I
Page 23027
1 would say.
2 JUDGE KINIS: But did he issue some instructions to you?
3 A. No, no instructions were given, either in a written or verbal
4 form. We discussed things and that's how we decided how to do things.
5 He never issued me with any written or oral instructions.
6 JUDGE KINIS: You mentioned that your office didn't have
7 sufficient amount of finances and resources. Could you please tell me
8 who -- how much resources was at Cermak's disposal?
9 You mentioned here in your testimony yesterday that villages were
10 supplied by generators, by televisions. And so where he got this stuff?
11 A. When I was speaking about my resources, I did not talk about
12 money but about human resources that the commissioner's office had at its
13 disposal at the time. I didn't have any problems with funding, because
14 the funds from the Ministry of Finance were delivered on time, even
15 before Operation Storm when we were working in exile, and later on, the
16 monies went through Zadar and Knin county and they reached us through
17 them. How Mr. Cermak's office was funded, I don't know. I never
18 inquired and it was not up to me to inquire.
19 As far as your question is concerned, and your curiosity about
20 televisions, after Operation Storm, many company delegates,
21 representatives and individuals arrived in Knin. They brought donations.
22 They brought TV sets, food, and I believe that those donations -- and to
23 me personally, I received financial donation from Australia for the first
24 marriage in Knin, actually there were two marriages that took place at
25 the same time so I had to split that donation between two -- two couples
Page 23028
1 who got married at the same time.
2 JUDGE KINIS: Okay. Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, I have a few questions for you as well.
4 First, in relation to one of your previous answers, could you
5 give me a name of the company that would provide television sets to your
6 office or the office of Mr. Cermak, which you then distributed in the
7 Oton village?
8 A. I believe that the company in question was Frotea. The TV sets
9 were donated by the representative of the Croatian Chamber of Commerce of
10 the then Croatian republic Herceg-Bosna. I believe that his name was
11 Jago Lasic, if I'm not mistaken.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any documents in which they are
13 offered, a letter sent, Here, you've got five or ten television sets.
14 Is there any documentary evidence which would support your
15 answer?
16 A. No, there's nothing. At that time donations just arrived.
17 People would, for example, come to my office or to Mr. Cermak's office
18 with donations. Later on, we tried to record those donations, which were
19 then in a different form, and we tried to distribute those donations
20 through the office of the Croatian Red Cross that was in charge of that.
21 Let me just tell that you in the vicinity of the Croatian Army
22 hall, the municipality of Donja Stubica, built a house, one of the only
23 two that were shelled in the city of Knin. There's no written document
24 to that effect, no written document to show that the house was the result
25 of a donation.
Page 23029
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, these television sets, were they
2 delivered at your office or Mr. Cermak's office, before you took them to
3 Oton village?
4 A. I believe that they were brought to Mr. Cermak. But we carried
5 them there together.
6 JUDGE ORIE: How did you learn which firm supplied these
7 television sets?
8 A. Later, some of those people who had donated some gifts, after the
9 meeting with Mr. Cermak, visited me. They paid me a visit in my office,
10 the office of the commissioner's.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And these were all new television sets?
12 A. I believe so.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You believe so. What could create any doubt?
14 A. They were packed in cardboard boxes. Well, I didn't really
15 inspect them, to be absolutely sure that they were new.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said they gave the impression that were in
17 the original carton boxes.
18 Moving to a totally different subject. Upon arrival here in
19 The Hague you explained to the Cermak Defence that after reviewing your
20 statements over a couple of days, you would like to make changes. How
21 long did that meeting take, approximately, in which you informed the
22 Cermak Defence about the changes you'd like to make?
23 A. When I arrived in The Hague, in my statement provided to the
24 investigator, I did not make any changes concerning General Cermak. The
25 changes that I made concerned other things and matters.
Page 23030
1 JUDGE ORIE: But my question was: How long the meeting in which
2 you expressed your wish to make these changes lasted.
3 A. About an hour or so, I believe.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you go through your statements? Did
5 you go through it page by page, or had you prepared a list of changes?
6 What happened during this one-hour meeting?
7 A. Already before that, I had already made up my mind as to what
8 parts of the statement needed to be changed, and I spontaneously provided
9 different answers, with the professional help of the Defence team.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Had you put them on paper already, what the
11 real answers should be, for yourself?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you had prepared a document for yourself, on the
14 basis of which you informed the Cermak Defence about your wish to make
15 some changes?
16 A. [In English] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you still have that document in your possession?
18 A. [Interpretation] No, I don't. Once we made the changes, I
19 received the new text, and I signed every single page personally.
20 JUDGE ORIE: What happened with the document you had prepared?
21 Did you give it to the Cermak Defence, or did you ...
22 A. I tore it up, and -- well, I would feel embarrassed to actually
23 have to tell you where I put it, what I did with it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, if there's any reason why you wouldn't
25 say it in an open session, then, of course, in order to protect your
Page 23031
1 privacy, we could turn into private session. But I would like to know
2 where -- what happened to that document.
3 A. It was not a document. It was a piece of paper --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 A. -- which I flushed down the toilet. I did not want that piece
6 of paper to be abused, either by me or by somebody else.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What was the risk of abuse of that piece of paper?
8 A. Well, I don't know -- I didn't feel any imminent risk. I just
9 didn't want anybody else but me being in a position to use it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 A. And all the papers that I have now, I will store them out of
12 anybody's reach, because I don't want anybody to either read them or have
13 access to them, for any reason whatsoever.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, on that piece of paper, did you work on the
15 basis of paragraphs of your statement? Could you tell us what you wrote
16 down?
17 And let me just go back to one of your previous answers.
18 You told me that you had put on paper already what the real
19 answers should be. Did you write that down in your own handwriting?
20 A. I couldn't do it any other way. I don't use computers, printers,
21 or anything of the sort, and I did not have any equipment at my disposal.
22 As I prepared for work and certain activities, I would write down several
23 drafts of speeches or plans for activities, and then I would work further
24 on them, as needed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did I understand your previous answer
Page 23032
1 well, that you -- let me just ...
2 Had you formulated the answers you considered correct on that
3 piece of paper?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And did you copy, first, the old answers, and then
6 add what the true answers would be; or did you just make a
7 paragraph reference and then add what the new text should be?
8 Could you tell us which way you did that.
9 A. In my papers, I checked for things that were not correct, and I
10 based my corrections on that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then you put the right answers written out
12 on that piece of paper?
13 A. Exactly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was that one sheet, several sheets; could
15 you tell us?
16 A. Several sheets. I couldn't put all the seven corrections on one
17 sheet. And, as I told you already, I change things several times round
18 before I am happy with the answer.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, was any change made to what you had written
20 down and what we finally found in this document that was made on this
21 Tuesday, the -- or did the Cermak Defence copy all of your answers; or
22 did you refine the formulation?
23 Were there any changes to what you had put on paper?
24 A. The written text of the answers was my language, my formulations.
25 Perhaps there may have been certain additions from the professional side,
Page 23033
1 by the team of attorneys. In any case, they did not touch upon my right
2 to have this or that type of answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said the meeting lasted only one
4 hour -- or approximately one hour, I think you said.
5 A. Exactly.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did you then read the new answers to them, or
7 did you, at any moment, give them a copy of what you had prepared?
8 A. I read them, and then, together with them, we were trying to find
9 the right formulation so as to keep the answer in line with what it
10 should be.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you write them down in your own
12 language?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And was an interpreter present during that meeting
15 on Tuesday?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And did he, on the spot, translate your language
18 into English; or did he, at any moment, had this piece of paper so as to
19 put it in proper English on what was later presented to us as your
20 additional statement or at least the corrections?
21 A. No. I was present as the interpreter interpreted from Croatian
22 into English.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I change subjects again.
24 You told us about -- that you had a conversation in which it was
25 said that it would not be good if President Tudjman would see the -- the
Page 23034
1 burning.
2 Did you ever consider that, if Mr. Tudjman, President Tudjman,
3 would visit the area, that if there would have been smoke, that the
4 international community, ambassadors, other high officials, would say to
5 him, Well, you've seen it yourself.
6 Was that of any concern to you?
7 A. I didn't consider the possibility that the president or someone
8 else could see smoke. I don't know whether the president was fed correct
9 information from the field or not. I can't say that. I did not send in
10 reports. Someone else probably did, but I can't know what sort of
11 reports reached the president. However, I am certain that the president
12 of the Republic would not have been happy with ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: You may have misunderstood my question. You -- the
14 first part of your answer was:
15 "I didn't consider the possibility that the president or someone
16 else could see smoke."
17 Do I have to understand your testimony to be that, on this -- I
18 think it was the 26th of August, that travelling by train through the
19 area would not -- you wouldn't see any smoke of houses that were or had
20 been burning before?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you discussed that it would not be
23 good and that the burning should stop.
24 Again, if you couldn't see any smoke, what was your -- why would
25 you consider it not to be good to see smoke if there was no smoke to be
Page 23035
1 seen at all? That's at least what you expected.
2 A. Perhaps the translation does not correspond to ... maybe I would
3 change it again.
4 In my conversation with Mr. Cermak, I may have used the words
5 "the president would not have been glad," but I thought it might have
6 been good, irrespective of the president and other officials who
7 accompanied him on the liberty train, to have that stopped. In that
8 case, I thought that it would be good that as of now, not as of the
9 president's arrival, that there be any other burning of property.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So the gist, then, of your conversation was that it
11 would not be good if there would be any further burning, apart from that
12 the president would not have been in a position to see any smoke at all.
13 A. Precisely.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Change subjects again.
15 I think some questions were put to you in relation to a hundred
16 Serbs having returned to Knin, and we are at the end of October when this
17 would have happened. And you told us that at least one group returned,
18 organised, arriving in a bus.
19 Is that correctly understood?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, how many Serbs approximately were living in
22 Knin, even before the war started?
23 A. According to the census from 1991, in Knin, that is to say, the
24 area of the former Knin municipality, there lived some 38 or
25 39.000 Serbs. The percentage it amounted to was 89, 8, some per cent
Page 23036
1 were Croats, and three and a half, or 3 per cent, were of those who did
2 not declare their ethnicity or declare themselves Yugoslavs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now the hundred Serbs that had returned by the end
4 of October, were you referring to the town of Knin only or were you
5 referring to the Knin municipality?
6 A. Some arrived in the town of Knin; whereas, others went to some
7 rural parts further from Knin. That is to say, to the villages where
8 they had left from.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, when this was discussed, I got the
10 impression that - but please correct me when I'm wrong - that you
11 considered this, well, an achievement, a hundred Serbs having returned,
12 something noteworthy. Is that a misapprehension of what you meant to
13 say, or ...
14 A. You did not misunderstand. The traces of war were still felt,
15 and persons had to express their wish to return. Some of them may have
16 felt fear, but, later on -- well, you know how it is. When one family
17 returns to a village and then they let others know that there were no
18 problems, then they began returning more frequently.
19 If I may, you are referring to this figure of 100. If I said
20 there were some 3.000 Croats, only 250 out of that total number of Croats
21 saw the beginning of the operation in Knin itself.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, 100 out of close to a 40.000 is one-quarter of
23 1 per cent. Did you consider that, at that time, to be an achievement
24 which would support that the return of Serbs was going well?
25 A. In my view, it is an inherent right of every person to live where
Page 23037
1 they want to. What I can say is that even thought there are conditions
2 in place for their return now, people still did not return. They found
3 other means of living, some of them remained in the Republic of Serbia,
4 but, unfortunately, most of the population of Knin is not in Serbia but
5 in Canada, Australia, and America.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You referred to -- that the conditions are in
7 place for return but people still did not return.
8 Could you give us a figure as to how many of those 38 to 40.000
9 you mentioned before have now returned today? If you know. If you don't
10 know, tell us.
11 A. I don't know exactly. But I do take part in the meetings of the
12 Serb National Council at which it is mentioned that in the territory of
13 the Republic of Croatia, from Operation Storm to date, some 112 to
14 115.000 people returned.
15 In my estimate, most of them returned to the area of the former
16 Knin municipality, because most was -- the most was done there.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any statistics or figures on that?
18 Because, if 40.000 left, it may be -- it may be a need of some further
19 explanation if you say that 112 to 115.000 people returned. Then,
20 apparently, we're talking about different groups or different places,
21 different areas.
22 Do you have any statistics on specifically Knin area?
23 A. I don't. This figure covers the entire Republic of Croatia after
24 Operations Flash and Storm. I think the return in greatest number, in
25 terms of Serbs, was in the area around Knin and the town itself, because
Page 23038
1 that is where the most was done in the process of reconstruction.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
3 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need to put further
4 questions to the witness?
5 Mr. Kay.
6 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour, several matters.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Kay:
8 Q. Mr. Pasic, can we deal, first of all, with the changes that made
9 to your Prosecution statement, and I want to ask you questions about that
10 arising from His Honour Judge Orie's questions.
11 Firstly, did you tell the Cermak Defence which paragraphs, which
12 parts of the statement you wanted to change?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was it ever suggested to you by any member of the Cermak Defence
15 team that you should ever change any part of your statement?
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, these are quite leading questions,
17 and in the circumstances, perhaps they should be put in a more open-ended
18 way.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
20 MR. KAY: I can't think of any other way of putting the question.
21 It's not leading.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- however, Mr. Kay, it's -- if, in my
23 questions, there was any such suggestion included, and I think it was
24 not, but then that certainly was not what I intended to discuss with the
25 witness.
Page 23039
1 MR. KAY: Very well, Your Honour. I don't know what the Bench is
2 thinking, what --
3 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's the reason why I --
4 MR. KAY: And -- yeah.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- was mainly focussing on prepared new text.
6 MR. KAY: Yes, I will direct my questions to that, given
7 Your Honour'S guidance on the matter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
9 MR. KAY:
10 Q. Was it -- did you point out which parts of the statement needed
11 to be changed?
12 A. As I said, I alone, without any influence, decided which changes
13 need to be made, and in keeping with that, I suggested the right answers,
14 or the replacement that should take place, due to the change I wished to
15 make.
16 Q. And was what you told the Cermak Defence written down by a member
17 of their team at the time, as you spoke?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And did you speak in your own language?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And as a result of what you said, was a document typed up the
22 same day that was put to you for your approval?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you read that document?
25 A. Yes.
Page 23040
1 Q. And did it reflect what you had told the Cermak Defence at the
2 time?
3 A. In full.
4 Q. And then did you sign that document?
5 A. Every page.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Just moving on to some other matters, in answer to Her Honour
8 Judge Gwaunza, you said that you had to create the conditions for life of
9 electricity, drinking water, accommodation. Now, taking, first of all,
10 electricity, did General Cermak have any role to play in relation to the
11 connection of the electricity for Knin?
12 A. General Cermak was not in charge of re-establishing the water
13 supply, electricity supply, soup kitchens or some other elements required
14 for the functioning of the town of Knin. However, I felt the need, or I
15 realised that, with my team, we were not able to overcome the obstacles
16 before us. It is then that I asked General Cermak to help me. He did
17 so, to the best of his ability, to deal with those problems in Knin.
18 I can tell that you in a very short period of time, the town of
19 Knin had potable water and most of the settlements near Knin began
20 receiving electricity. Where there were greater distances involved and
21 where there was more destruction, General Cermak personally, in my
22 village, it may have been because of me perhaps, brought a generator,
23 where the people who received the TV sets I mentioned could watch them.
24 That generator enabled the use of electricity for the inhabitants, by the
25 inhabitants.
Page 23041
1 Q. Now, if we can take this in stages. The electricity, did Knin
2 have to be reconnected to the electricity supply?
3 A. Yes. The town of Knin did not have electricity supply. I
4 believe the commander of the Military District and the military
5 garrison --
6 MR. KAY: Garrison.
7 THE INTERPRETER: As the witness says, had their own generators.
8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I was just correcting there a translation
9 error that we've had several -- several times on the word "garrison."
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, that is what the witness
11 said.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I --
13 MR. KAY: Yes, thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. KAY:
16 Q. The electricity, then, was connected by the garrison. Was that
17 work that you were able to do with your staff or did it require a
18 different competence to do that work?
19 A. As I said, the employees of the Croatian electricity supply
20 company, and in particular the Commission of the Republic of Croatia,
21 were insufficiently equipped to be able to deal with the problems which
22 cropped up after the Operation Storm in Knin. We asked to be helped --
23 Q. And where did that help come from? Who helped you?
24 A. In order to deal with the situation, the Croatian electrical
25 company sent teams from Split and Zadar. They also sent in teams to
Page 23042
1 re-establish the telephone network. The area of Knin was in the
2 territory of the Zadar department. Some people also arrived from the
3 postal centres in Split and Sibenik, and I believe much was done in order
4 to resolve the issues.
5 Q. And in relation to those works, what did the garrison do?
6 A. The garrison, although I didn't mention it, probably had to
7 provide food and accommodation for those people. But I forgot to
8 mention, and I don't know whether I was asked about that, that the public
9 utility company of the town of Knin had to become operational right after
10 Operation Storm, and we managed to do that.
11 Irrespective of the fact that I was the governmental
12 commissioner, I was not a familiar face in that area, and I relied on the
13 position and reputation of Mr. Cermak to assist me. He did so, by virtue
14 of his connections, I presume from Zagreb, where he hails from, brought
15 in a public utility team from Zagreb. They cleaned the streets round the
16 clock. Thus, clearing the town of Knin of any debris or leftover garbage
17 which had not been taken away during the previous -- during the rule of
18 the previous authorities.
19 Q. And was that work necessary to normalise life in Knin?
20 A. Had it not been for the clean-up team, which dealt with Knin
21 itself, I believe, in a very short time, the situation would have become
22 unbearable. People could not live or return to Knin. There probably
23 would have been an outbreak or anything of the sort.
24 Q. Turning now to the drinking water, in relation to restoring
25 drinking water to Knin and the area, are you able to say what work the
Page 23043
1 garrison did, in relation to that?
2 A. The garrison -- I didn't know some of the people who had worked
3 there before, but the garrison managed to locate an expert team. Knin is
4 supplied with water rather specifically from a source called Vrelo. It's
5 a source of water, and perhaps all that was necessary was to reconnect
6 the pumps and then water began flowing. I think there was a certain
7 Cacic, who was the person who had worked previously with that equipment,
8 who was brought in from Zagreb in order to deal with the water supply of
9 Knin as soon as possible.
10 Q. And who was bringing in the -- the person from Zagreb to deal
11 with the water supply?
12 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know who brought him in. But I
13 think that, during a meeting, some mention was made of a person who would
14 be an expert to deal with it, and I believe it was on the suggestion of
15 the garrison that he was brought in from Zagreb.
16 Q. You mention funds and donations. What sort of things were being
17 donated by others to Knin?
18 A. When we're talking about donations I can say that donations
19 varied. I have already told you that a man came to me, he was the mayor
20 of Donja Stubica, he brought some workmen and they restored a house --
21 the house belonged to Mr. Jakovljevic. Actually, there were three
22 owners. One of them was Sota Jakovljevic [phoen]. They did it in a very
23 short time. Then there was this donation of TV sets. There were also
24 building materials that were donated. But I have to say that when a soup
25 kitchen was opened to feed those who were not able to provide for
Page 23044
1 themselves, it was moved from the place where it stood originally to the
2 premises of the former Balkan restaurant, and it received donations in
3 food.
4 I must again point out that some of the people that donated
5 things, I didn't know. I have to tell you that a man came and he was the
6 owner of a meat processing factory. His name was either Jakopec or
7 Jakopec, I don't know exactly. And owing to his previous acquaintance
8 with Mr. Cermak and the reputation that Mr. Cermak enjoyed, because of
9 Mr. Cermak and because of people who needed help, a very impressive
10 donation arrived, consisting of dry cured meats and cold cuts and fresh
11 meat as well.
12 According it my estimate, the soup kitchen, which provided a
13 daily supply of some 300 meals, was well supplied with meat products and
14 fresh meat that lasted for over ten days. Likewise, I have to say that
15 this was a joint agreement with General Cermak, because we ceded a former
16 bakery shop to a man who had returned to the city of Knin. His name was
17 Teskera. He supplied the soup kitchen with a month's worth supply of
18 bread for all those who benefited from the services of the soup kitchen.
19 I really can't remember all the other donations at the moment.
20 There may have been some donations that were not even needed at the time,
21 some wicker chairs or garden furniture, but I must tell you that those
22 donations were presented to either Mr. Cermak or myself. We did not
23 distribute the goods according to needs. If the donations consisted of
24 food, clothes and footwear, then we would call the secretary of the
25 Red Cross office, whose name was Tanja Grgic, because the Red Cross, I
Page 23045
1 must admit, was really well organised, very mobile, and with the
2 assistance of international humanitarian organisations it was fully
3 equipped to --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I'm wondering whether we have not reached a
5 level of detail which might not assist the Chamber.
6 MR. KAY: I think so.
7 Q. There's a document I would like you to look at. It is
8 65 ter 2D00314.
9 And, Mr. Pasic, if you can look at the screen there to your right
10 at a document dated the 8th of August, from the garrison. Signed by
11 Mr. Cermak. Sent to Zadar-Knin county, Orlovic donation, care of
12 Mr. Kumana.
13 Do you know a Mr. Kumana at all?
14 A. Mr. Kuman, while I was the commissioner of the Republic of
15 Croatia for Knin, was -- held the same duty for Benkovac. And when this
16 document was drafted or, rather, when this request was drafted, I believe
17 that he was the head of the prefect's office for reconstruction of
18 development. I'm not sure about that. But I know that he was a county
19 official and that he was the head of one of the county offices.
20 Q. And if you see the content of this application, you see that it's
21 due to the normalisation of work and return of civilians to the town of
22 Knin, "I hereby ask you to donate one power generator from the Orlovic
23 donation" and signed by General Cermak.
24 First of all, did you know about this request for a donation by
25 General Cermak?
Page 23046
1 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
2 Q. And did you know at the time whether the Orlovic donation in fact
3 gave a generator to the town of Knin?
4 A. I assume that the generator went to Oton Bender, where it was
5 installed.
6 Q. This is dated the 8th of August, 1995. Would that have been a
7 generator that went to Oton Bender on that date?
8 A. The date is the 8th of August, that's the date of the
9 application. And when the application was dealt with and when the
10 generator went up there, I don't know. I can't be -- I can't be sure of
11 that.
12 However, I believe that some time lapsed, before the generator
13 arrived in Knin and dispatched to the place where it would be used.
14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I ask that this document be made an
15 exhibit, please.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1721.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that's all I ask.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And this was re-examination, although we didn't have
22 the usual sequence of examination of the witness.
23 Therefore, without now a liberal approach anymore, Mr. Misetic.
24 MR. MISETIC: I will keep it strictly to the questions from the
25 Bench, Mr. President.
Page 23047
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
3 Q. Mr. Pasic, you answered some questions from the Presiding Judge,
4 Judge Orie - at page 45, lines 3 to 6, for the benefit of the parties -
5 and this was when you were asked about donations of television sets. And
6 you specifically referenced that this came from a man named Jago Lasic,
7 who - if I can just find the line - was chairman of commerce -- or,
8 sorry. Croatian Chamber of Commerce of the then Croatian Republic of
9 Herceg-Bosna. Then you were asked by the Presiding Judge: Are you aware
10 of any documents in which they are offered, a letter sent, Here you've
11 got five or ten television sets.
12 Now, I would like to show you a video concerning -- which is
13 related to this issue.
14 MR. MISETIC: And if we could, Mr. Registrar, play 65 ter 1D2982.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 "[Voiceover] The last four years in Knin can be characterised as
17 years of idleness and disorder. But this for some time [indiscernible],
18 says Petar Pasic, the commissioner of the government of the Republic of
19 Croatia for Knin. Today the president of the Chamber of Commerce of the
20 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosnia, Mr. Jago Lasic, has promised to
21 provide his full assistance in the realisation of this goal. And
22 together with his associates and several companies from Herceg-Bosnia, he
23 visited this town today. This time, aside from their promise of future
24 cooperation, they also brought aid to Zvonimir Grad [phoen] in the value
25 of approximately 1.850.000 kuna and two computers as a gift to the local
Page 23048
1 hospital."
2 MR. MISETIC:
3 Q. Mr. Pasic, that meeting on the 28th of August, is that the
4 meeting with Mr. Lasic to which you were referring in answer to the
5 Presiding Judge's questions?
6 A. Yes, I believe so.
7 Q. Were there any other meetings with Mr. Lasic in Knin, other than
8 the one on the 28th of August?
9 A. I don't know if there were any others. But I know that he
10 brought a number of people who was his associates on his visit to Knin.
11 I believe there was the representative of a company whose name was Frotea
12 or something like that. I can't remember after 15 years. I know that
13 there were a lot of people, that they all promised assistance and that
14 they did, indeed, follow through and sent donations.
15 Q. Now, in the video it's referenced that Mr. Lasic and the group
16 that came with him from Herceg-Bosna brought aid in the value of
17 approximately 1.850.000 kuna. Can you describe for us the form in which
18 that -- the form which that aid took; in other words, was it 1.850.000 in
19 value of goods, or was it cash?
20 A. In cash, you mean? I -- I believe that there was no cash
21 involved. I believe that the donation that arrived from the then
22 leadership of the Croatian Chamber of Commerce of Herceg-Bosna, as far as
23 I know, was sent to the Knin hospital, which already, at the time, had
24 already started working, and I assumed that the chief administrator of
25 the Knin hospital, Mr. Biskovic, had taken over the donation, whatever it
Page 23049
1 was. I believe that he was the one who took the donation over.
2 Q. But were the televisions that you referred to in your answers to
3 Judge Orie, were the televisions part of this donation that's referenced
4 there of 1.850.000 kuna?
5 A. I believe so.
6 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I ask that 65 ter 1D2982 be marked
7 and I tender it into evidence.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1722.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 Any further questions on this issue?
13 MR. MISETIC: No, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Mr. Pasic, where was this aid
15 delivered, as far as you remember? If you know. The goods.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, judging by the -- the image
17 of the event by -- judging by the pictures, I believe that the meeting
18 was held on the premises of the government of the Republic of Croatia. I
19 believe that it was in my office, actually.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's where the goods were delivered?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Save for the TV sets and the -- the
22 monitors -- I don't know what to call them. I believe that one part of
23 the donation actually ended up with me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What part?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that Mr. Lasic had
Page 23050
1 brought a number of people, economists from the area, executives and
2 businessmen. I believe that they brought a lot of towels, clothing items
3 that had been donated by a company whose name is Frotea, as I've already
4 told you already. And I believe that we immediately involved the
5 Croatian Red Cross, that immediately embarked on the distribution of
6 those donated goods.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Goods were immediately distributed then, upon
8 receipt?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I believe so. I can't
10 see that on the screen, but I believe that, when it comes to donations,
11 Mr. Curko was also present at the meeting. He was the head of the
12 welfare centre, and I believe that Mrs. Tanja Grgic, from the Croatian
13 Red Cross, was also present at the meeting.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And there was no list of goods in this amount of
15 1.850.000 kuna?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A reference is made to the value as
17 being 1.850.000 kuna. I can't really tell you whether that amount is
18 correct. I believe that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you whether the amount was correct. I
20 asked you whether there was list of goods.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions?
23 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President.
24 Q. Mr. Pasic, if I can ask you, you were asked some questions about
25 the numbers of Serbs that had returned to Knin by the end of
Page 23051
1 October 1995. How many Croats who are from the Knin municipality - in
2 other words, Croats from the Knin municipality in 1991 or before - how
3 many of them had returned to the Knin municipality by end of October
4 1995?
5 By "return," I mean returned to live.
6 A. The government's recommendation was first to accommodate Croats
7 who were, at the time, accommodated in hotels. There were some 1.261
8 citizens of Kijevo, they were all Croats but one. At the time they were
9 accommodated in the bungalows of Resnik or Trogir or somewhere in that
10 area. And they immediately expressed -- expressed a desire to leave the
11 tourist complex and they returned. They had previously owned houses, and
12 their village was razed to the ground, and they expressed a wish before
13 the housing commission to be accommodated in the former state-owned
14 apartments and --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could please --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- those Croats who had expressed
17 their desire to return --
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you could please focus on the question. How many
19 of the Croats that had lived before the war started in 1991 had returned
20 by the end of October to Knin.
21 Ms. Gustafson.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting at this
23 stage but I just needed to double-check. These questions arose initially
24 from an ECMM report of the 27th of October P822, and in which this
25 witness reports that a figure, if he is going to asked about it now,
Page 23052
1 perhaps he should be shown that document. He refers both to the hundred
2 Serbs and to the numbers of Croats and from -- from where they stem or
3 are from.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, it's suggested that you ... let's try
6 to finish within the next couple of minutes.
7 MR. MISETIC:
8 Q. Mr. Pasic, can we -- I'm sorry.
9 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, can we have Exhibit D822.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, I believe it is P822.
11 MR. MISETIC: P, sorry.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, you'll see in this document that it reports that
13 most Croats who lived in Knin before 1991 had returned, and that that
14 statement is attributed to you.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was that -- did you say that at the end of October 1995?
18 A. I can't see that I said this. I know the exact number of Croats,
19 segregated by places. It says there were five and a half thousand people
20 who remained ...
21 Q. No, I think what it says, Mr. Pasic, is that there were 1300 who
22 were from Knin and there are another 5.500 who are in Knin at that moment
23 but who have roots elsewhere.
24 Was that something that you had said?
25 A. I suppose so. I have already told that you a large number of
Page 23053
1 Croats arrived from Banja Luka, they arrived from Travnik. They arrived
2 from Bugojno. And the reason for their arrival, as I was told, they told
3 me themselves, was the fact that they could not live together with the
4 Muslims, and that's why they wanted to return to Croatia.
5 Q. Mr. Pasic, my question is this. First, just by way of background
6 and I don't know if this is in your statement. I don't think it is.
7 After you were the commissioner for Knin until March of 1996, you
8 continued to be the commissioner for which municipalities?
9 A. The date is wrong. It was not the 4th of September but the
10 9th of September. Actually the 9th of April, 1996, I was removed from
11 the position of the commissioner of the government of the Republic of
12 Croatia, but on the same day I was appointed a commissioner of the
13 Republic of Croatia for the municipalities of Civljane, Biskupija,
14 Kistanje, and Ervenik.
15 Q. And how long did you hold that position, until when?
16 A. I held that position until the 16th of January, 1997.
17 Q. Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, we are drifting far away from what
19 apparently what was raised by my questions. I asked for the appreciation
20 of a number the witness gave at the time. Now you asked him how many
21 Croats had returned. We find in this document reported that the witness
22 would have said approximately 1300, and practically all of the Croats.
23 It is not a core issue of this case. I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but
24 it's not a core issue in this case. The witness said that this is what
25 he said, and now we're exploring his previous positions. Either one or
Page 23054
1 two focussed questions on the matter. Otherwise, we'll end up far from
2 what I raised and which was not primarily focussing on figures and
3 numbers. But, rather, about an appreciation by the witness.
4 MR. MISETIC: If I can just have a minute, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, since it's not a core issue, then I
8 will not pursue the matter further.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pasic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it is, I didn't hear you say it's not. But
11 it's certainly a matter which has some relevance and has been dealt with
12 over in a considerable way. But if it is not, I expressed as my view
13 that, although there is relevance to the issue, it's not a core issue,
14 and by leaving that, if it is not a core issue, then we'll hear from
15 you --
16 MR. MISETIC: The reason I qualified that way, Mr. President, is
17 precisely because, as can you appreciate in my position --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may give it -- you gave -- may give it a higher
19 level of relevance than you could understand from my words and what is
20 the core is still, of course, a concept which is not precisely defined.
21 Mr. Pasic - I'm looking at the parties - this concludes your
22 evidence. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
23 for having answered, for a few days, all the questions that were put to
24 by the parties and by the Bench. And I wish you a safe return home
25 again.
Page 23055
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. By your leave, I wish
2 to say that I hope you will believe everything what I said and what I
3 commented about concerning my interview and previous statement.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can understand that you have that hope.
5 We'll have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past 1.00.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 --- Recess taken at 12.51 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza is not available for a very short
10 moment. The other Judges considered it in the interests of justice to
11 proceed, and it's mainly a procedural matter which I would like to deal
12 with in private session.
13 Could we turn into private session.
14 [Private session]
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 23056
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 [Open session]
Page 23057
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 Is the Cermak Defence ready to call its next witness?
4 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness is Mr. Cipci,
5 please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, while the witness is being brought
8 in, I would just like to clear up one housekeeping matter which was the
9 pages of the suspect interview. I've had a chance to look at more
10 carefully and if the Chamber is inclined to admit that exhibit, which is
11 D1719, in our submission, the six prior pages, so starting at page 57 of
12 that interview, provides the appropriate context, in particular, for the
13 statement of the investigator, where it says, "It seems from what you are
14 saying."
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now pages and videos, may I take it that you
17 want to have this portion of the video then added as well and not just
18 the transcript?
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's up to Your Honours. I don't -- I don't
20 think the video is necessary.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then, for the context, we could just do with
22 the transcript, Mr. Misetic, would that meet any problems?
23 MR. MISETIC: Let me, if I may, Mr. President, take a look at the
24 full transcript. I don't have it with me here in court. I just have the
25 selection and I will get back to the Chamber in the morning.
Page 23058
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the ball is on your side now again.
2 MR. MISETIC: Yes, thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And, of course, this -- there were two reasons why
4 it was marked for identification. The Chamber will still have to
5 consider the relevance, whether that's a matter of admissibility or
6 whether it's a matter of weight, as suggested by Ms. Gustafson.
7 I see now three counsel at the side of the Prosecution. Who will
8 be in charge of the next witness?
9 MR. WAESPI: Ms. De Landri.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. De Landri will take the next witness. Yes,
11 that's on the record then.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Mr. Cipci, could you please
14 remain --
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- standing, yes.
17 Mr. Cipci, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
18 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which is
19 now handed out to you by Madam Usher. And I would like to invite to you
20 make that solemn declaration.
21 If you remain standing when giving that -- yes, the microphone
22 will catch your words.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Cipci.
Page 23059
1 MS. DE LANDRI: Excuse me, Your Honour. The screen reflects that
2 we're still in private session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Oh. Then -- I think in the beginning of the -- I do
4 not see that on other screens.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have different --
7 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry for the interruption. I can confirm we
8 are in open session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But our screens still puts us in private or
10 closed session.
11 No, it's -- as a matter of fact, it's the ELMO screen which gives
12 closed session but the video screen is, at this moment, fully public, and
13 that's the one that is broadcasted.
14 Mr. Kay, please proceed.
15 You will first -- Mr. Cipci, you will first be examined by
16 Mr. Kay. Mr. Kay is counsel for Mr. Cermak.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KAY: Thank you.
19 WITNESS: IVO CIPCI
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Mr. Kay:
22 Q. Mr. Cipci, don't worry about the microphones. They're extremely
23 powerful and they will pick up your voice when you speak.
24 Mr. Cipci, is it correct that you made a statement to the Defence
25 for this case, dated the 3rd of September, 2009?
Page 23060
1 A. It is correct that I made that statement, which I also signed.
2 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may we have 2D00740, please.
3 Q. And, Mr. Cipci, on the right-hand screen you will see in a moment
4 a copy of that statement in your own language.
5 MR. KAY: And if the signature could be shown at the foot of the
6 document.
7 Q. Do you recognise that there that document, Mr. Cipci, as being
8 the record of interview signed for the Defence?
9 A. Yes, this is my signature and the cover page of my statement. It
10 is precisely the statement I signed.
11 Q. And I know you have a copy of it in front of you in a plastic
12 folder. Don't worry about that. That's just a copy and we'll all be
13 looking at the one on the screen. If you need to refer to that paper
14 copy, just ask us for permission to do so. Thank you.
15 MR. KAY: And if we can go to the last page of the statement.
16 Q. And do you recognise there your signature next to the date of the
17 3rd of September, 2009?
18 A. Yes. The 3rd of September, 2009, and the signature is indeed
19 mine. I wrote both the date and I affixed the signature.
20 Q. Thank you very much. And we know that your signature is on each
21 page in between.
22 Did you read through this statement before you signed it?
23 A. Certainly. First I read it and then I signed each page.
24 Q. And in relation to paragraph 13, which is on page 5 in the
25 English, line 23. So page 5, line 23, in the English.
Page 23061
1 A. Very well.
2 Q. And if we can have that on the screen in front of you in
3 Croatian, on the right-hand side. And we see a sentence containing:
4 "100 policemen."
5 In English it reads:
6 "He came to Knin with his policemen with the first contingent of
7 100 policemen. Mr. Sikrica was formally responsible to Mr. Romanic and
8 he received orders from him."
9 Is it correct that you want to make a correction, in relation to
10 that sentence?
11 A. [In English] Yes. [Interpretation] It is correct that I want to
12 make a small correction in this sentence.
13 On the 5th, in the afternoon, the first contingent of
14 100 policemen was accompanied by Mr. Milkovic who remained there only for
15 a few days and then he was replaced by Mr. Sikrica. I mention
16 Mr. Sikrica because he spent a longer period of time being in charge of
17 that unit, that is why I mentioned Sikrica rather than Maljkovic. But in
18 the course of the first few days and the first afternoon, it was
19 Mr. Maljkovic who was with the policemen.
20 Q. And that's spelt M-a-l-j-k-o-v-i-c.
21 A. [No interpretation].
22 Q. Is that correct?
23 A. [In English] Not. [Interpretation] Not quite. It should be
24 M-a-i-l-j. [In English] L and g together. Then k-o-v-i-c.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 23062
1 A. [Interpretation] Mailjkovic. And it's not just a plain C but it
2 is actually Ch in Croatian. We have a two different versions of it.
3 They come with a diacritic and then you would have the right last name.
4 But, in any case, it's irrelevant.
5 Q. Thank you very much. We've got that piece of information.
6 So taking into account that corrections that you have now made
7 before the Court on that matter in paragraph 13, is everything that you
8 have said in this statement, to the best of your knowledge and belief,
9 true and correct?
10 A. What I stated, I personally assume that everything is correct.
11 However, the truth and a lie are very subjective categories, and what I
12 am claiming at this moment or what I will claim as opposed to what I
13 claimed in the past, I can only say, at the moment, when I stated that, I
14 was convinced that I was telling the truth.
15 Q. Thank you. And if I were to ask you today the same questions
16 that you were asked previously, would the information in this statement
17 reflect and be the same as the answers that you have given to the
18 statement?
19 A. If you were to ask me the identical questions, I would answer
20 them in the identical way.
21 The only difference with regard to my statement that I provided
22 on the 3rd is what I stated at -- previously, with regards to the family
23 names of those who left for Knin on the 5th. So it wasn't Mr. Sikrica
24 but Mr. Mailjkovic. And that's the only change that I would made to the
25 answers that I would provide and they would be the same as back then,
Page 23063
1 when you asked me all those questions and the answers became my
2 statement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cipci, I noticed that you have a natural
4 inclination of giving rather long answers. This matter, if would you
5 have said, I would give the same answers with the correction I just made,
6 would have sufficient for us to understand fully what meant.
7 I would invite you to focus very much and to give brief answers.
8 If any further details are relevant, Mr. Kay will certainly ask you for
9 those details.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour. And the witness, having made
12 that statement, I request that this document be made an exhibit.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was already submitted that there would be no
14 objections.
15 MS. DE LANDRI: No objections.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the statement of Mr. Cipci would be.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1723.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D1723 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. KAY: Thank you.
20 And in relation to this statement, Your Honour, I want to point
21 out a matter which is probably on the record already, but so it's on the
22 trial record. And that concerns paragraph 24.
23 Q. You have no need to worry about this, Mr. Cipci, it's a matter of
24 administration.
25 MR. KAY: A document was referred to by an internal reference
Page 23064
1 number, OBR 416, that's in fact Exhibit D495, Your Honour, and that
2 correction was notified.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber received a notification to that extent.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. And, Your Honour, also in the
6 English version, a sentence had not been typed in. The full version has
7 been uploaded so that paragraph 30 fully reflects what was said in the
8 Croatian original that the witness signed.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm looking at the counsel for the
10 Prosecution. I take it that that is agreed upon.
11 MS. DE LANDRI: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. KAY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Cipci, if we could just look at a part of your statement.
16 MR. KAY: And I'm turning now, Your Honour, to paragraph 24.
17 Q. And in paragraph 23, where you deal with a matter concerning
18 passes that were issued by Mr. Cermak. And you've been shown, when you
19 made your statement, a number of documents that are reflected in the
20 statements, numbers -- Exhibits D497, 498, 494, and Exhibit D495, and
21 Exhibit D496.
22 MR. KAY: In relation to Exhibit D496, if that could be put on to
23 the screen, please, so that Mr. Cipci can look at the document.
24 Q. In paragraph 25 of your statement, you refer to the
25 re-establishment of the Split-Knin train line and a number of people
Page 23065
1 wanting to travel. And you can see on the document in front of you that
2 it is from the Split-Dalmatia police administration, dated the
3 15th of August, 1995, and you can see your name at the end of the
4 document, and that it is sent to Operative Action Povratak. And it is
5 sent to the Ministry of Interior with the subject: Visits and
6 administration [sic] to the liberated areas.
7 First of all, Mr. Cipci, do you recognise this document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And was it a document sent by you to your Ministry of Interior in
10 Zagreb?
11 A. Yes. To the office for return. That was an office within the
12 Ministry of the Interior.
13 Q. And the office for return, if could you just briefly inform the
14 Court what the nature of that particular office was, what it was
15 concerned with.
16 A. The office was set up within the Ministry of the Interior and it
17 was headed by the Assistant Minister Josko Moric. It was supposed to
18 deal with all sorts of communications in the area and evaluate whether
19 all the conditions were in place to abolish passes which were the only
20 relevant documents that allowed people to enter the liberated area.
21 In other words, they oversaw the restoration of normal life in
22 the area, as well as all the other tasks and duties given to them by the
23 minister of the interior.
24 Q. And we can see from the content of this letter, that you were
25 saying you were being pressured by citizens and displaced persons wishing
Page 23066
1 to visit the liberated areas, and that the railroad line was restored and
2 that the railroad line was to transport citizens for free within the next
3 ten days, and that there is enormous pressure at check-points, because
4 citizens feel they can travel without any problem. And you asked:
5 "Please give us urgent directions how to" -- "as to how we should
6 act in this newly developed situation."
7 Can you briefly describe to the Court, then, the problem that you
8 were experiencing at this time when you wrote this letter and sent it to
9 the Ministry of Interior?
10 A. It was not just the problem of people who previously resided in
11 the area and who enjoyed the status of returnees. There was a great deal
12 of interest among other citizens from the territory of my police
13 administration, which was the county of Split and Dalmatia, to move into
14 that area that had been occupied for years. They wanted to settle in
15 Knin, to arrive in Knin by way of providing contribution to the
16 liberation of the area, and that's why there was lot of pressure from --
17 on the police administration, the railway administration, because I know
18 it for a fact that all those who wanted to get on the train couldn't.
19 There were too many people who wanted to go to Knin.
20 That's why I sought instructions, because the civilians could
21 pass through my check-points only with passes signed by myself. I
22 certainly could not issue thousands of passes, because I had very strict
23 criteria as to who could go to the liberated areas at the time.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. KAY: I had one more question to ask on this document.
Page 23067
1 Q. We see handwritten on it:
2 "Call the Split-Dalmatia police administration and say that
3 Cermak will annul the passes today."
4 And do you know what that handwritten reference concerns?
5 A. I don't know who wrote this and what that refers to.
6 As far as I know, Mr. Cermak, based on the previous agreements in
7 the ministry prior to the beginning of Operation Storm, Mr. Cermak could
8 not issue passes for my area and for my check-points and he also, by the
9 same token, could not abolish them. At the end of the day, I received
10 information from the ministry that passes would no longer be required.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. KAY: And that deals with that matter.
13 Your Honour, there's further questions tomorrow.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Cipci, we have to adjourn for the day. You have been with us
16 only for a very short moment, but tomorrow further questions will be
17 there for you to answer. But I'd like, first of all, to instruct you
18 that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony, whether the
19 evidence already given today, or the evidence still to be given tomorrow.
20 So refrain from any conversations on that matter, or any communications.
21 We will adjourn for the day, and we'd like to see you back
22 tomorrow morning, 9.00, because we will resume on the 14th of October,
23 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
Page 23068
1 October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.
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