Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23291

 1                           Tuesday, 27 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Mr. Waespi, I had forgotten yesterday to come back to your --

12     well, announcement or request.  It was not entirely clear to me that you

13     intended to file the report, which I would then take would be a

14     confidential filing.  I have not checked this morning whether you have

15     done it already.  But there is no --

16             MR. WAESPI:  No, I left it in your hands.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. WAESPI:  We also have it uploaded in the e-court system so we

19     could release it under seal, or whatever you wish.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is happy if you would file it, but then,

21     of course, confidentially.  That seems to be a better approach than to

22     just release it in the e-court.

23             If there is no other procedural matter, then, Mr. Kay, is the

24     Cermak Defence ready to call its next witness, which I do understand no

25     protective measures and that would be Branko Sruk.

Page 23292

 1             MR. KAY:  That's right, Your Honour, yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Madam Usher, Could you please escort the witness into the

 4     courtroom.

 5             There was an issue about a relatively late filing of this

 6     witness.  Mr. Waespi, the 92 ter statement was filed relatively late.

 7     I'm not saying too late.  But is there anything to be expected in terms

 8     of -- yes, Mr. Carrier.

 9             MR. CARRIER:  No, that's fine.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So that problem doesn't exist anymore.

11             Now, perhaps we could also already try to use our time.  There

12     are two documents.  The first being a compilation of documents which the

13     Cermak Defence would like to have added to its 65 ter list.

14             Mr. Carrier, that's the compilation of documents on sanitation

15     from August 1995 and an order on disbanding mixed detachments for

16     sanitation and transferring sanitation to civilian organs, 4th of

17     September.

18             Any problem with adding it to the 65 ter list.

19             MR. CARRIER:  No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Sruk.  Before you give evidence,

23     the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn

24     declaration, of which the text will now be handed out to you by

25     Madam Usher, and I would like to invite you to make that solemn

Page 23293

 1     declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Sruk.  Please be seated.

 5             Mr. Sruk, you will first be examined by Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay is

 6     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           WITNESS:  BRANKO SRUK

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Examination by Mr. Kay:

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Sruk.

13             Mr. Sruk, there is going to be a document that will come on the

14     screen to the right of you.

15             MR. KAY:  Can we have 2D00765.

16        Q.   And it is your witness statement that you gave to the Defence.

17     And I ask you to look at it to identify it.

18             Can you see there the statement that you gave to the Defence,

19     when you were interviewed on the 10th of September, 2009.  And if the

20     page can be brought down a bit, do you identify your signature on that

21     page?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  It's all right.

23        Q.   And if we could just turn to the last page of the document, which

24     has the date, 7th of October, 2009, do you confirm that is your signature

25     and you signed this document on that date?

Page 23294

 1        A.   That's correct.  Everything is correct.

 2             MR. KAY:  And, Your Honour, the pages in between are signed by

 3     the witness as well.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sruk, I'm going to ask you some questions about this

 5     statement.  First of all, when you signed this document, did you read

 6     through its contents?

 7        A.   Yes, twice.

 8        Q.   And when you read it, was everything contained in the statement,

 9     to the best of your knowledge and belief, true and correct?

10        A.   In my statement, is that what you're referring to?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And if I was to ask you in court today the same questions you

14     were asked and in which the information was recorded in this statement,

15     would you give the same answers to those questions so that the answers

16     remained the same?

17        A.   Yes.  These are the only possible answers I could give.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sruk.

19             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, in those circumstances, may I make this

20     document an exhibit.

21             MR. CARRIER:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1737.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D1737 is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 23295

 1             MR. KAY:

 2        Q.   Mr. Sruk, we're now just going to complete some formalities in

 3     relation to the statement.

 4             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, in paragraph 7, there are two documents

 5     referenced with OBR numbers.  The first is OBR-068311, which goes to page

 6     14.  Those are the two pages that have been cited.  This is 2D00766.  And

 7     I request that that be made an exhibit, please.

 8             MR. CARRIER:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1738.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D1738 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. KAY:  And, Your Honour, at line 21 in the same paragraph is a

13     similar document identified OBR-0686.  That has been uploaded onto our

14     65 ter list as 2D00767.  I ask that that be made an exhibit, please.

15             MR. CARRIER:  No objection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1739.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D1739 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that completes the formalities of the

20     statement.  I'll now give a short summary of the contents of that

21     statement.

22             Mr. Sruk, since November 2006, is currently the head of the

23     occupational medicine department in the Sunce Polyclinic.  In 1995, he

24     was within the health department of Operations Group North of the

25     Split Military District, and his superior was the commander of

Page 23296

 1     Operations Group North and he reported to the chief of the health

 2     department at the Split Military District.  At that time, he was the

 3     commander of a military health care centre.

 4             Just before Operation Storm, on the 3rd of August, 1995, he had

 5     arranged a hygiene and sanitation reception point with a surgical team in

 6     the hamlet of Marici, near the village of Luka, which was located near

 7     Sajkovici, where Operation Group's North command post was.

 8             Having undertaken his duties there, on the 5th of August, 1995,

 9     he received an order from the staff of Operations Group North to go to

10     Knin immediately with all available hygiene and sanitation and --

11     personnel with the task of organising the reception centre for Croatian

12     Army members.  Early on the 6th of August, he went to Knin and he first

13     visited the hospital and situated himself in a building nearby.

14             During the morning of the 6th of August, he went into Knin, as

15     the communications were not functioning, and near the railway station met

16     a group of people wearing HV uniforms.  They informed him they had been

17     carrying out human sanitation of the terrain and that they had taken some

18     dead bodies to Knin cemetery.

19             When he heard of this, he went to the cemetery to check what was

20     happening there, and whether things were in accordance with the

21     established rules and protocol.  There was no one at the cemetery at that

22     time, but he found a hole containing some dead bodies near the chapel.

23             At that stage, the Croatian military was responsible for the

24     human sanitation in the area of combat activities, the front line, and

25     the civil protection of police administrations was responsible for the

Page 23297

 1     human sanitation in the liberated area.

 2             He took no action at that stage, knowing that it was their

 3     responsibility to deal with matters.  He went to the military health care

 4     centre, returned to the cemetery later in the day where he found staff of

 5     the civilian protection dealing with the burial of bodies within Knin

 6     cemetery, according to accepted standards.

 7             In relation to issues in this case, Mr. Sruk has considered an

 8     order that was titled: I hereby order, dated 5th of August, 1995,

 9     Exhibit P506, signed by Mr. Cermak, and concerning a Dr. Brkic.  He has

10     considered the information with that order and has identified the fact

11     that it not only names him but also people working for him.  And it is

12     his evidence that, in fact, he never did work with Dr. Brkic, and that

13     reports filed by Dr. Brkic record the work of other people which, in his

14     view, he concludes that Dr. Brkic was seeking to identify himself and

15     self-promote himself in relation to having conducted activities in

16     connection with Operation Storm.

17             Your Honour, having given that brief summary of Dr. Sruk's

18     statement, I'll now ask him some questions of clarification, with

19     Your Honours' leave.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed, as you suggest.

21             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Dr. Sruk, I want to turn now to when you arrived Knin on the

23     6th of August.  If you could tell the Court what time it was when you

24     arrived the town.

25        A.   Roughly at dawn, we were near Sinj, so that at around 8.00, 8.30,

Page 23298

 1     we were in Knin.

 2        Q.   Where did you visit in Knin, first of all?  What place did you go

 3     to initially when you arrived Knin?

 4        A.   Pursuant to the verbal order I received, we went immediately to

 5     the hospital in Knin.  I knew where it was located from before so we

 6     found it quite soon.  It was our intention to organise there a reception

 7     centre and an infirmary for wounded or injured soldiers.

 8        Q.   Did you establish at that time the reception centre?

 9        A.   It was a rather makeshift version at the time, which enabled us

10     to, over a short period of time, and we had a team of surgeons and nurses

11     from the nearby area, to put the whole thing together and have it up and

12     running.

13        Q.   Was this located within the Knin hospital itself?

14        A.   Yes.  It was right next to the main entrance where the emergency

15     ward existed from before.

16        Q.   At that stage, when you were establishing the reception centre,

17     how many operatives within your -- your unit did you have working with

18     you?

19        A.   Eight.

20        Q.   And the composition of this team that you had was what?  Nurses,

21     doctors, if you could describe it to us.

22        A.   The team was composed of individuals who had previously been in

23     the village of Marici and had been receiving individuals there.  During

24     Operation Storm there was a surgeon, an anesthesiologist, nurses,

25     drivers, myself as a doctor, and male nurses.

Page 23299

 1        Q.   Did there come a time when you went into Knin town itself, to the

 2     railway station?

 3        A.   As soon as we organised ourselves, I went to get informed, to

 4     know what was happening.  As you might know, the hospital in Knin is at

 5     the edge of town, and we wanted to see what the situation was like in

 6     this new environment we came to.

 7        Q.   And what did you establish within the town, which is of relevance

 8     to this case?

 9        A.   In principle, the town was deserted.  There were several broken

10     shop windows, and at the railway station, facing the main square of the

11     town of Knin, I came across a group of uniformed individuals, two or

12     three of whom I recognised because we were members of the same unit back

13     in 1991.  As there was a general celebratory mood, we greeted each other

14     cordially and I asked him what it was that they were doing there.  They

15     answered, quite reluctantly, that they were charged with sanitation; in

16     other words, with the collection and transport to the cemetery of dead

17     bodies.

18        Q.   If I can just ask you a few questions about what you told us

19     there.

20             What -- what unit did they belong to?

21        A.   I can't tell you exactly which unit they belonged to at the time.

22     I know that previously they were members of the anti-aircraft defence

23     units.  That's what they were members of back in 1991.

24        Q.   And did you notice if they had anyone who was particularly in

25     command of them?

Page 23300

 1        A.   No.  No, I didn't know who their commander was.  I took it for

 2     granted that they had an order which they went about carrying out.  I

 3     didn't stop to check that, nor was that my duty.

 4        Q.   And what did you do, as a result of what they told you?

 5        A.   You know, sir, throughout the war, we feared pits.  This is an

 6     old tradition from my native land.  It was at all times important to us

 7     to bury dead soldiers and civilians according to all the standards in

 8     full respect of dignity.  I -- that's why I went to see what this was all

 9     about.  There was no order to that effect.  I wanted to make sure that

10     this was done properly, and we had to rely -- we had to be resourceful

11     and creative in that respect.

12        Q.   Just as a matter of information, for how long had you been

13     involved in dealing with burials of dead bodies during the conflict?

14        A.   As I joined the Operations Group Sinj at the end of 1994, and

15     later on, when I joined Operations Group North, I was always present at

16     the front line where, under the rules, the Croatian Army was duty-bound

17     to carry out the proper removal of human bodies and carcasses.  In other

18     words, at the front line, I, as the chief of a medical corps, was the

19     person responsible for it.  Therefore, my arrival to Knin was nothing

20     novel to me.  It wasn't the first time.  I had extensive experience, and,

21     believe me when I tell you, that I was doing the job thoroughly and

22     properly as of the end of 1994.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you go to the cemetery in Knin?

24        A.   As soon as I heard the information from this group of soldiers, I

25     went to the cemetery right away.  I didn't manage to find it at first,

Page 23301

 1     but I managed eventually, and it was at my second attempt that I

 2     succeeded.

 3             There was nobody at the cemetery, but at the end of the cemetery,

 4     I noticed an excavator.  This convinced me that somebody was already

 5     engaged in sanitation and burying individuals.  But I didn't find anybody

 6     there.

 7        Q.   And were you with anyone when you visited the cemetery?

 8        A.   No, I was on my own.

 9        Q.   And when you saw this -- this excavator, what did you see nearby?

10        A.   In its immediate surrounding, there was a hole that had been dug

11     of approximate dimensions 4 by 4 metres.  When I came to the edge of that

12     hole, at the bottom of the hole I could see some eight, nine, or ten

13     bodies laid down.  I didn't exactly count them, I have to admit.

14        Q.   When you saw the hole there with the bodies within, had there

15     been any other signs within the cemetery of the digging of graves or any

16     other place of interment?

17        A.   Not at the time.  When I came there for the first time, there

18     wasn't anything.  I was simply there on my own.

19        Q.   At that stage, on the 6th of August, whose responsibility was it

20     for the burial and sanitation -- human sanitation in Knin?

21        A.   Since Knin was not at the front line, all the burials, human

22     sanitation were the task of the civilian protection of the Ministry of

23     the Interior.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I have some concerns about whether your

25     question, line 11, 8, was well understood by the witness in view of his

Page 23302

 1     answer.  I would just like to verify that.

 2             Mr. --

 3             MR. KAY:  Yes.  I see what Your Honour mean, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, Mr. Kay asked you whether, when you came

 5     to the cemetery for the first time, whether you saw any other signs of

 6     the digging of graves.  And from your answer, I take it that you

 7     understood the question to be whether you saw any persons digging graves.

 8             Is that how you understood the question?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I understood that I was asked

10     whether any other graves had been buried or whether any other

11     preparations had been made for further interment.  This was my

12     understanding.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I think it was included in the question as

14     well, whether you saw any indicia of people having been buried there

15     recently.  The graves perhaps not prepared for being used, but perhaps

16     already being used.  Did you see anything which could be understood as

17     indicia for recent opening of the ground and closing it again.

18             MR. KAY:  Current -- current burials.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Along the way that I walked on, so

20     from the main entrance by the chapel, this is a rather wide passage,

21     there were old graves on either side of this passage.  But I did not walk

22     anywhere else in the cemetery.  I simply walked in the direction of the

23     chapel and this is why, at that time, so in the morning hours of the

24     6th of August, to be more precise, it may have been about around 10.00,

25     10.30 in the morning on the 6th of August.  It is rather difficult to

Page 23303

 1     recall exactly after so much time has lapsed, but bearing all in mind all

 2     my other duties at the time, I assume it may have been about 10.00,

 3     10.30.

 4             So I did not walk around the cemetery but I walked directly in

 5     the direction of the excavator because this was what I was interested in.

 6     There were graves on either side of this passage, but I have to say, I

 7     did not pay too much attention.  I was not interested in that.  I was

 8     interested in the -- in the human sanitation itself.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for this clarification.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

11             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   In relation to what you saw in the hole, the area that had been

13     dug, was there anything that you could do at that stage to deal with the

14     matter?  You personally being there.

15        A.   Well, quite obviously I couldn't do anything on my own.  But it

16     was quite clear that something needed to be done, and whoever did it

17     before was unqualified for the job.  And I have to say, when I recall

18     these pictures today, I believe that they did it with the best of

19     intentions.

20             However, at that moment, I physically could not do anything on my

21     own.

22        Q.   What did you do next, having seen that -- that site?  Where did

23     you going?

24        A.   I have to admit that, first of all, I didn't know what to do at

25     all.  The town was half empty.  At that time we did not even have any

Page 23304

 1     internal communication.  We could simply use couriers.  So I went back to

 2     the hospital, and my intention was to try and get in touch with those who

 3     were involved with human sanitation.  That is with civilian protection

 4     service, or whoever could do it from thereon.

 5        Q.   And was that the civilian -- and was that the civilian protection

 6     run by the MUP?

 7        A.   Yes.  Short after I came back to the hospital, my driver brought

 8     me a message that members of the civilian protection came - he didn't

 9     know where from - and that they were getting ready for sanitation, as I

10     was told at the time, and I quote:  "To do it in our way."  And this I

11     understood to mean according to all the protocols, and my driver was

12     aware of these protocols and rules.

13        Q.   And so what did you do next, in relation to this matter?

14        A.   This information that the civilian protection took over the task

15     the of sanitation, at that moment, was enough for me.  And soon

16     afterwards, we started with our next task, which we had to carry out, and

17     this was to receive the medical team from Zadar which was supposed to

18     come in and start managing the hospital.  One part of that hospital was

19     used by us as infirmary.

20        Q.   So did you go to meet the incoming medical team from Zadar?

21        A.   Yes.  We waited for them there.  Actually, we came to the

22     Heliodrom with two vehicles with -- sorry, at the helipad with two

23     vehicles in order to transport them from there to the hospital.  The

24     distance is rather long.

25        Q.   So did that happen?  Did you meet the incoming medical team from

Page 23305

 1     Zadar and transport them to the hospital?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 3        Q.   In fact, did they arrive on a helicopter which also contained

 4     General Cermak?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In relation to your duties and responsibilities, did

 7     General Cermak have any role at all?

 8        A.   No.  I recognised him at that time, because I simply knew him

 9     from TV or newspapers.  I did not even know at the time what was the

10     purpose of his visit, why he came there.  I was explained that later on.

11        Q.   Having taken the medical team to the Knin hospital, did you later

12     revisit the Knin cemetery?

13        A.   Yes.  So, after we transferred the hospital, so to say, to the

14     Zadar team, I was ordered to urgently inspect a situation along the road

15     Knin-Bosansko Grahovo.  I went there with my team, and in passing, we

16     were on the road, but in front of the entrance to the cemetery, I could

17     see a rather large group of people, and then I became personally

18     convinced that these were members of the civilian protection that I heard

19     earlier on were coming in, and they were organising their work, and we

20     could see that from the road.

21             In the afternoon hours, after I came back from my previous task,

22     I personally stopped at the cemetery with my personal driver.  The first

23     thing I was interested in, as you can assume, is what happened with what

24     I saw that morning; so, that hole with bodies laid in it and the

25     excavator.  At first, I was satisfied because I could immediately see

Page 23306

 1     that nearly half of the bodies were already taken out.  Some four or five

 2     bodies, they were laid at a plateau in front and they were already put in

 3     body-bags.  I introduced myself.  They could see my insignia, the ranks,

 4     that I was an officer, so I asked them, I said that obviously I couldn't

 5     issue any orders.  I was not a commander of theirs.  But I asked them to

 6     complete their work there, and I said, Please, let us do the rest of this

 7     work according to all the rules and regulations of human sanitation.

 8             I went back a third time to see the situation as it was in the

 9     field, and then I already knew a person who said that he was either

10     responsible or that he was coordinating that work.  We jointly visited

11     that group grave, mass grave, whatever you want to call it.  I just

12     wouldn't like to call it a pit.  And that it -- the ground was levelled,

13     and the bodies, at that time, were already buried in the left-hand side

14     of the cemetery where there was still enough room, and that area, the

15     left-hand side, looking from the entrance into the cemetery, was used for

16     human sanitation purposes from there on in Knin.

17             So the area where the hole was dug out previously was levelled.

18     You could see that it was excavated sometime ago, or not so long ago.  I

19     was convinced then, if I may say so, I was so sure that the work was done

20     properly that I even sent some beers to people who did that work in such

21     difficult conditions, because the weather conditions were so difficult.

22     It was very hot.  And it is our custom that when you offer a drink to

23     somebody, it means that you are expressing your satisfaction, and this is

24     what I have done as well.

25        Q.   If I could look at some of the detail there.  Had -- did you

Page 23307

 1     discuss with the civilian protection team working there what you had

 2     found, what you had seen when you were there earlier in the day?  Did you

 3     inform them about that?

 4        A.   Yes, certainly.

 5        Q.   And did they tell you anything they had done about what you had

 6     seen, whether they'd taken any steps to deal with the problem that you

 7     had seen?

 8        A.   I said already that when I came there for the second time, I

 9     could see already that approximately half of the bodies were taken out

10     and were dealt with properly.  Obviously I couldn't assume that they

11     would leave the second half of the bodies in, because there was a large

12     group of people there and a coordinator was there, so I can guarantee

13     that I saw half of the bodies taken out, and I'm sure that they proceeded

14     with the work in the same way, but it wasn't a pit in which the bodies

15     were thrown but that was simply a way that somebody did a human

16     sanitation task in an unqualified way.

17        Q.   Could you describe, then, the type of graves that were there that

18     had been made by that civil protection team, how they dealt with it.

19     Describe how they interred those bodies.

20        A.   The bodies were buried in a typical manner in which we usually do

21     it when we bury bodies in the ground.  So you have a grave dug out, you

22     put in the body, and you have a small barrow on top, a small mound.

23             When I came there for the third time, I tried to see what it was

24     that they did, and I could see that there were graves, one next to

25     another one.  There was a cross on each of these graves, as we would

Page 23308

 1     normally put it above the head.  The graves were typical graves dug in

 2     the same way in which it is customarily done in our country.  It is done

 3     in this way, even today, if you bury somebody in the ground.

 4        Q.   You've described earlier the excavator.  Do you know how the

 5     digging was done in the cemetery at that time?  How this civil protection

 6     team dug?

 7        A.   On that day, though I passed by the cemetery the next day -- but

 8     I'm not talking about that now.  On that first day, people dug graves

 9     manually, and then I realised that the excavator I saw was broken down.

10     It was out of order.  The next day it still stood there in the same

11     position, unmoved.

12             I assumed that later on they brought new excavators and thereby

13     they could work faster.  But what I saw on the first day, it was done

14     manually.  This is very difficult work.

15        Q.   Did you revisit the cemetery in Knin on any other occasions

16     during the month of August?

17        A.   Only once.  I was asked by an acquaintance of mine who didn't

18     know where the cemetery was and he wanted to visit a grave of a relative

19     of his.  So I took him there, but, on that occasion, I didn't even enter

20     the cemetery.  I smoked a -- and I smoked a cigarette in front of the

21     entrance while he visited the grave that he wanted to visit.  This was in

22     the second half of August, and I didn't visit the cemetery on any other

23     occasion because this was not a part of my task.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  I want to now look at other -- another

25     matter with you.

Page 23309

 1             MR. KAY:  Can we have Exhibit P506, please.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sruk, you'll see on that screen to the right again a document

 3     coming up that I want you to look at.  You've referred to it in your

 4     statement.

 5             It's dated the 5th of August, 1995, from the Knin garrison,

 6     signed by General Cermak, and it contains your name within it.  And I

 7     want you to look at this document with the Court.

 8             We can see that it says because of the situation that has arisen

 9     and the need for organised and expert human and animal hygienic and

10     sanitary measures of the liberated region.  And there's an order.

11             And it says:

12             "A field hygiene and sanitary measures staff is organised under

13     the command of Garrison Town Knin composed as follows."

14             And we see Brigadier Brkic, Chief of Staff; Dr. Gotovac,

15     assistant chief for epidemiological affairs; Major Dr. Branko Sruk,

16     assistant chief for human hygiene and sanitary measures.

17             Now, you're named in this order.  Were you ever part of a team

18     that worked under the command of the Knin garrison?

19        A.   When you showed me this order, this was the first time that I

20     ever saw it.  So this was in the year 2009.  I never was and I could not

21     have been a member of a team, because my order, at the time, was to be

22     chief of the medical team and commander of the operative team of the

23     Operation Group North.

24             On the 5th of August, I was still at the front line with the

25     group of people that I presented to you earlier on.

Page 23310

 1             The last four members of this team, the last four names, are two

 2     nurses and two drivers, and they could not have been here, because that I

 3     would mean that I have been left without nurses and drivers, and I could

 4     not operate like that.

 5             The order that was still valid for me at the time, on the

 6     5th of August and the 6th of August until probably 11th or the

 7     12th of August, was as I previously stated.  So it is rather clear that

 8     even if I wasn't a soldier, I couldn't have been at two places at once.

 9     My reports written on the 5th and on the 4th of August to my superiors

10     were sent from the front line, and they clearly indicate that I could not

11     have been here, no matter who issued this order.

12             On the other hand, regardless of the fact that this order was

13     signed by Mr. Cermak, even if I received it, at the time I could not have

14     followed it, because I had an entirely different commander and entirely

15     different orders.  So although the military forces were only then being

16     created, nonetheless nobody could go anywhere on one's own initiative.

17     You had to follow the orders which you had.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We'll work up in reverse order, then, of the names

19     here, as you identified those four who were part of your unit.

20             Captain Boris Radovic, coordinator for animal hygiene and

21     sanitary measures.  Did you ever work during this time in a sanitation

22     team with him?

23        A.   Up until that point, no.  Subsequently, yes.  However, at -- in

24     this particular exercise contained in the -- referred to in the document,

25     no.

Page 23311

 1        Q.   And if you could tell us, then, about Captain Radovic, what his

 2     role and job was and whom he worked for?

 3        A.   Captain Radovic was, to put it simply, my counterpart.  What I

 4     was in the medical corps, he was in the veterinary field.  In other

 5     words, he was the chief of the veterinary service.

 6             It was only later, pursuant to General Gotovina's order of the

 7     11th of August, that he was appointed the coordinator of the mixed team

 8     for sanitation, which was within the chain of command, something that

 9     came from the staff, and it was a fully valid unit based on the law.

10     Mr. Radovic, who was a veterinarian, was appointed a coordinator.  I

11     suppose that were he now alive, he himself would confirm that he never

12     saw the order that we have on our screens now, because he was unable to

13     carry out two tasks at the same time and he had the same commander that I

14     did.

15             Therefore, there was nobody who could have ordered to us, save

16     for our commanders.  In other words, the commander of Operations

17     Group North, and commander of the Split Military District.

18        Q.   And Captain Radovic, whom you said that you did later work with

19     at that time, was that in connection with this order of the

20     11th of August you just referred to?

21        A.   Let me clarify this.

22             The operations and planning logistics from the Main Staff in

23     Zagreb, bearing the signature of General Cervenko, an order arrived

24     concerning the sanitisation -- sanitation of certain areas during and

25     after Operation Storm.  The order referred to all the Military Districts

Page 23312

 1     and addressed all those who were in the areas of responsibility under the

 2     direct command of the Main Staff.  I suppose that the order reached

 3     Zadar, not Split, because the forward command post of the Split Military

 4     District was in Zadar at the time.

 5             An order was drafted there, which was signed by General Gotovina

 6     on the 11th of August, which contained all the elements of sanitation and

 7     everything else that was required in the area covered by the

 8     Split Military District, including Knin, as part and parcel of the AOR.

 9     At that time, Captain Radovic was appointed a coordinator.

10             At that point, pursuant to the order which arrived from Zagreb, a

11     mixed detachment was set up.  It was quite clear to us that

12     General Gotovina had signed the order whilst being fully aware of the

13     vastness of the territory, which had a very small presence of

14     individuals, most of whom had fled before or during Operation Storm.  We

15     were aware of the fact that we had to bring in completely new forces to

16     deal with sanitation, be it the removal of human bodies, of carcasses, of

17     any other debris, et cetera.  It was an area where none of the facilities

18     were operational.  It was a true and proper order.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Just going up, then, to the next name on the list.

20     Lieutenant Dr. Boris Samardzija.  Do you know Lieutenant Samardzija?

21        A.   Yes, I know him and I know everybody else very well.

22             Boris Samardzija arrived only sometime on the 8th or 9th from

23     Split.  He took part in this exercise as a physician, and his primary

24     role was in the reception centre that I told you about which we had set

25     up on the hospital premises.  Whether he was used for some duties other

Page 23313

 1     than those, I don't know.

 2        Q.   Was he used for any duties, in relation to sanitation of the

 3     terrain?

 4        A.   I don't know about that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And, again, is he an officer within the

 6     Split Military District?

 7        A.   Yes, he was an officer, member of the 306th Logistics Base in

 8     Split.

 9        Q.   If we go to the next name, moving up.  Snjezana Soldic, a vet.

10     Do you know this person?

11        A.   Yes.  She was a Miss, at the time, a Mrs. today.

12             She was a veterinarian working in the health administration

13     attached to the Ministry of Health.  In other words, she was a civilian

14     person who worked at the time for the Ministry of Defence.  It was not

15     customary for military personnel to issue civilians employed there any

16     sort of orders.

17             She was there for a couple of days, and it was more of a

18     supervisory role that she had, and it was after the 10th or the 11th of

19     August that she spent these two days in Knin.  She stayed in home that

20     was next to our infirmary housed in the hospital.  She did not take any

21     -- any active part in sanitation, and I don't really know what it is that

22     she would be doing there.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  She worked for the

24     health administration within the Ministry of Defence.

25             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

Page 23314

 1        Q.   In relation to your work, did you work with her at all?

 2        A.   Not at the time.

 3        Q.   We've dealt with your position.  Let's look at Dr. Gotovac,

 4     assistant chief for epidemiological affairs.  Do you know Dr. Gotovac?

 5        A.   Of course.  In this initial phase of some ten days, Dr. Gotovac

 6     was not in Knin.  He arrived only after the 10th or the 11th; roughly a

 7     week after Operation Storm.  He is, indeed, a specialist in epidemiology,

 8     and he was also working for the health administration of the Ministry of

 9     Defence.

10             However, his role at the time was as some sort of supervisor; in

11     other words, he was supposed to oversee the sanitation process.  I

12     believe he even drew up a report.  But he did not only come to Knin, he

13     visited other Military Districts in the aftermath of Operation Storm.  He

14     could not have taken part in anything on the 5th of August, because he

15     wasn't tasked to, and, again, he was an employee of the Ministry of

16     Defence.

17        Q.   And lastly, Dr. Brkic, identified as Chief of Staff of this team.

18             First of all, did you work with Dr. Brkic at all during this

19     period in Knin?

20        A.   We came across each other on several occasions.

21             I must admit that he tried, to put it that way, to coax these

22     four people of mine, two drivers and two nurses, to join him.  Now, of

23     course, since we had completely different tasks that we were dealing, we

24     were unable to cooperate.  There was no need for it.  And officially

25     there was no cooperation.  I received -- had I received an order from my

Page 23315

 1     superiors to establish any sort of cooperation, I would have.  However,

 2     my superiors didn't even know that Dr. Brkic was forming any sort of

 3     staff and that he was engaging in sanitation, since we were all aware of

 4     the fact that it was the civilian protection that engaged in sanitation.

 5     It was a bit difficult at first because of the shortage of personnel, and

 6     it improved gradually.  In other words, there was no need for any sort of

 7     staff.  Ultimately, under the rules, under the law, this role should have

 8     been carried out by the civilian protection, because it didn't have to

 9     do, in this instance, with the battlefield.

10        Q.   Do you know exactly what Dr. Brkic was doing then in Knin?

11             Perhaps if can I put the question in stages.  You obviously know

12     Dr. Brkic; is that correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Did you know what he was doing in Knin at this time, what his

15     task and responsibilities were?

16        A.   When I saw him first, I found it unusual, I must admit.  I

17     thought that it was merely a courtesy visit from members of the

18     Ministry of Defence.  I thought that he was there to give us a piece of

19     advice.  Otherwise, it was not customary for individuals from such a

20     level to pay a visit to us, in order to directly engage in any sort of

21     activity.

22             Very soon, I realised that there was no order or rule based on

23     which he would do anything there.

24             Let me alert you to the fact that as part of preparations for

25     Operation Storm, we knew directly from General Gotovina and other

Page 23316

 1     commanders what sort of action would be taken along which axes.  And as I

 2     wrote instructions for logistics support, and therefore for sanitation as

 3     well, we knew that the sanitisation of an area that was outside of the

 4     direct combat zone, such as Knin, Drnis, Kistanje, et cetera, would be

 5     taken over by the civilian protection.  Therefore, anything else would be

 6     in direct violation of the documents or the orders that we received from

 7     our superiors.

 8        Q.   I'd like you now to look at a report that he filed dated the

 9     12th of August, 1995.

10             MR. KAY:  Exhibit D30, please.

11        Q.   This is a document referred to in your statement.  Do you

12     recollect there is this report and several other reports, one to

13     Mr. Cervenko -- General Cervenko, one to Mr. Susak, one to

14     General Gotovina, and you comment on them in your statement.  I'm not

15     going through each of them, but I'd like to you look at this one as being

16     an example, and it is a report on sanitation and hygiene measures taken

17     in the period.  It refers to the 5th of August.  And you've commented

18     on -- on that order.  And it refers to human sanitation measures.

19             And he, in page 2 of the English, and in the main paragraph of

20     the Croatian document, it refers to:

21             "In Knin itself ... bodies of enemy soldiers were partially

22     moved; namely, the rest could not be seen nor did they smell in view of

23     the recent operation."

24             And he refers to the church and finding an excavator with a large

25     hole that had been dug with several bodies.  And he refers to:

Page 23317

 1             "Aware that this was not the procedure to be followed, I issued

 2     an order to Mr. Ivan Jelic, engineer, to deal with the bodies in

 3     conformity with the Geneva Convention."

 4             That name there, Mr. Jelic, an engineer, is that familiar to you?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   The civil protection team that you came across on the 6th, would

 7     they be described as engineers or anything like -- like that?  Do you

 8     know what the phrase here "engineer," or the word "engineer" refers to?

 9        A.   Members of the civilian protection wore grey uniforms.  I

10     remember one of them.  I think they were mobilised members of the

11     Ministry of Defence.  I don't think that they necessarily needed to be

12     engineers.  They were supposed to apply hygiene and sanitation measures

13     in accordance with all the standards.

14             The name doesn't ring any bells.  I don't see why somebody should

15     be an engineer or not.  These were mobilised personnel.  I realised a day

16     later that they came from all over Croatia, including Zagreb.  We were

17     unable to man the team from among our ranks in Split and in the south,

18     and I realised later on that MUP had taken upon itself to mobilise these

19     people from across the country.

20             This person, Jelic, if he was among then, I had never heard of

21     him.

22        Q.   We then go to the part of the report where the 6th of August,

23     1995, is referred to, and the fact that the president of the Republic

24     arrived.

25             And do you recollect that event, that President Tudjman arrived

Page 23318

 1     in Knin on that day?

 2        A.   Yes.  I was not able to be personally present there.  I told you

 3     that this was at the time when I was out in the field between the two

 4     visits that I paid to the hospital.

 5             I knew of the event.  I don't see what it has to do with the

 6     report that was written, to tell you the truth.

 7        Q.   Looking at the next paragraph, he refers to the morning of the

 8     7th of August, 1995, arriving at the cemetery, finding the hole behind

 9     the church covered up.  He received no answer as to who had done it.  And

10     it became clear to him that his presence was indispensable:

11             "... due to the delicate nature of the work and other actions.

12     The team formed, as can be seen from your order, took matters into its

13     own hands and together with the civil protection staff produced results

14     which conformed to all rules of hygiene and sanitation measures; that is,

15     the bodies which were in a common room were separated and buried

16     individually."

17             Now we've looked at the team, and you've made your comments upon

18     those individuals in the order dated the 5th of August.  Just looking at

19     that assertion here, that on the 7th of August, that team, which included

20     you and some of your staff, took matters into its own hands and with

21     civil protection staff produced results which conformed to all rules of

22     hygiene and sanitation measures, and the bodies were separated and buried

23     individually, on the 7th of August, 1995.

24             As a relation -- in relation to that assertion in this report, is

25     that correct?

Page 23319

 1             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Carrier.

 3             MR. CARRIER:  I'm just not sure that characterisation of when

 4     they were buried or separated and buried is accurate.  If Mr. Kay could

 5     review that portion and perhaps readdress that.

 6             MR. KAY:  Well, it says in the morning of the 7th of August, he

 7     arrived.  He found the hole.  He found that his presence was

 8     indispensable.  The team formed, as can be seen from your order, and

 9     that's the order of the 5th of August, took matters into its own hands

10     and together with civil protection staff produced resulted which

11     conformed to all rules of hygiene and sanitation measures; that is, the

12     bodies were separated and buried individually.

13             It seems to me the assertion here that that is quite clearly on

14     the 7th of August, his alleged team and civil protection dealt with the

15     burial of these bodies individually as a team.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think Mr. Carrier points at the line where

17     it says:

18             "The bodies which were in a common room were separated and buried

19     individually."

20             You left out the common room.  Is that --

21             MR. CARRIER:  No.  It's that Mr. Kay added that they were

22     separated and buried individually on the 7th of August, 1995, taking the

23     first part of the paragraph of and putting it on the last part of the

24     paragraph and trying to make it seem that's what had happened.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that apparently is the --

Page 23320

 1             MR. KAY: [Overlapping speakers] -- make anything seem anything,

 2     other than read it out.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- let's --

 4             MR. KAY:  Excuse me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, if you could --

 6             MR. KAY:  I will redo --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- phrase your question again perhaps by just

 8     literally reading, then --

 9             MR. KAY:

10        Q.   Can you read this paragraph and you comment on it and tell us

11     whether this event happened as described in the paragraph, Mr. Sruk.

12        A.   Sir, may I comment on the entire report?  Quite briefly.

13        Q.   I want you to comment on this paragraph and then I will give you

14     an opportunity to comment on the entire report.  But this paragraph which

15     has this matter in it --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and --

17             MR. KAY:

18        Q.   You read it yourself.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine, Mr. Kay.  And then you asked the

20     witness whether this event happened or not.  Let's -- shouldn't we first

21     ask whether he was present during such an event, and if the answer is

22     yes, then, of course, he can comment on what happened.  If the answer is

23     no, then, of course, the witness may have other sources of knowledge on

24     this event.  But then at least we know what his source of knowledge is.

25             MR. KAY:  Right.

Page 23321

 1        Q.   Did you and the individuals identified in that order take part in

 2     the burial of those bodies that you described seeing on the

 3     6th of August?

 4        A.   No.  But the bodies were exhumed and then buried by the evening

 5     of the 6th.  Mr. Brkic arrives on the 7th.  He was not in Knin on the

 6     6th.

 7             The first part is evidently a description based on the stories he

 8     heard.  He arrives at the cemetery on the 7th, and it is true that he

 9     finds that the hole had been covered in, and he said that it's a delicate

10     matter.  But, you see, the problem lies in this.  What would have

11     happened, had the pit been covered in with the bodies inside?  And

12     this -- this is why I had always asked for my commanders to give me

13     permission to give bodies a proper burial.  So the bodies were

14     disinterred and were then interred individually.  They were given a

15     proper burial.  Already, on the evening of the 6th, the large hole had

16     been filled in, and that's how he found it on the 7th.

17             However, what preceded the prelude was different to what is

18     explained in this report.  And what's more suspicious is that the

19     document doesn't even have a proper reference number, and this begs the

20     question of what sort of report is this, after all.

21        Q.   That's all I ask on that matter, and you have dealt with the

22     reports in your statement in detail.

23             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I'm just trying to find the reference to

24     the 11th of August order that the witness cited during his evidence, and

25     I -- I noticed that I didn't mention to you which document he was

Page 23322

 1     referring to.  It's Exhibit P496, which is part of his statement, and he

 2     dealt with it extemporaneously rather than looking at the document, and I

 3     wanted to link that up for Your Honour as to the particular document that

 4     was being cited by the witness.

 5             I hope that assists the Court.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you for that.

 7             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that's all I ask Mr. Sruk.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I first inquire with the parties as to how

 9     much time they would need.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, 20 to 30 minutes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  20 to 30 minutes, because we started on the basis of

12     the assumption that Mr. Kay would take half a session where he took one

13     session.

14             Mr. Mikulicic.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will have no questions, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

17             Mr. Carrier.

18             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. President, I have a session and a half.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Session and a half.

20             Which means that we have to be very efficient in order to finish

21     at 1.30 p.m.  Could the parties keep that in mind, that is, to get to the

22     core of what they want to elicit as evidence from the witness without too

23     many side roads.  We'll first --

24             MR. KAY:  We revised our estimate to one session, as I recall,

25     sent a notice.

Page 23323

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I must have missed that.  That's -- I'm just,

 2     at this moment, establishing what our real situation is, Mr. Kay, rather

 3     than to criticise.

 4             We'll have a break, and we will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, are you ready to cross-examine the

 8     witness.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, you will now be cross-examined by

11     Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

12             Please proceed.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Sruk.

15             I noted from your witness statement that you mentioned that you

16     had been subordinated to OG North.  Can you tell us, were you ever

17     subordinated to Operative Groups Otric, Sajkovici, or Vrba.

18        A.   No.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit D281 on the

20     screen, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Sruk, this is an order by General Gotovina dated the

22     9th of August, and it is his order for active defence.

23             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to page 4 in the English.  And

24     if we could scroll down, please.  Actually ... I'm sorry, it's page 5 in

25     the English, at the bottom.

Page 23324

 1             If we could turn the page in English, please.  Okay.

 2        Q.   There you will see, Mr. Sruk, that on the 9th of August,

 3     General Gotovina ordered --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could scroll up in the Croatian, please.

 5     Sorry, if we could go -- page 4 in the Croatian version.

 6        Q.   And if you look towards the middle of the page, in the Croatian,

 7     General Gotovina says:

 8             "Three operative groups shall be established for the defence,

 9     consisting of all forces and under the command of the Split Military

10     District Command as follows ..."

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page, please.

12        Q.   And he renames and reforms the operative groups which as of

13     9 August become Operative Group Otric, Operative Group Sajkovici, and

14     Operative Group Vrba.  As of 9 August, Operative Group North ceased to

15     exist.  So after operative -- after 9th of August, can you tell us, who

16     you would have been working for?

17        A.   That's correct.  On the 9th, or the 8th, or the 9th in the

18     evening, the last briefing that I attended was in Sajkovici.  At that

19     time it still belonged to the Operative Group North.  Thereafter, as I

20     mentioned previously already, I came back to the 316th Logistics Base.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  306th Logistics

22     Base.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my task was to continue to head

24     the infirmary and medical station for members of the Croatian Army, which

25     was set up in the building of the hospital that I previously talked

Page 23325

 1     about.  So this is correct, what is stated here.  Although I have to say

 2     that this is the first time that I have seen this document.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that answer, Dr. Sruk.

 4             I want to turn your attention now to your witness statement which

 5     is -- particularly at paragraph 6 -- sorry, paragraph 4 of your witness

 6     statement.  And in that paragraph you mention that -- this is it at

 7     line 12 in the English:

 8             "I wrote two reports on my work to the commander of Operative

 9     Group North on 5 August 1995.  Upon the delivery of the reports, I got a

10     verbal order from the OG North staff to come to Knin immediately."

11             I'd like to show you, Dr. Sruk, a few of the reports that you

12     filed on the 5th of August.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have 65 ter 1D2997 on the

14     screen, please.

15        Q.   Doctor, you will see on the screen that this is one report, on

16     the 5th of August, that you filed with the commander of OG North.  The

17     report is titled: Report on killed, wounded and injured in Operation

18     Summer 95 for 3 August 1995.

19             Now, preliminarily, you do know that Operation Summer 1995 refers

20     to the Grahovo operation prior to Operation Storm.  Correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And if you look through this document, if you look through the

23     first page, it identifies wounded and injured of the 81st Croatian Army

24     Guards Battalion.

25             MR. MISETIC:  If we turn the page in both the English and

Page 23326

 1     Croatian.

 2        Q.   It also lists other injuries and then killed.  It identifies five

 3     persons of the 81st who were killed, and then the sixth person is a

 4     member of the 4th Guards Brigade who was killed.

 5             So in terms of the report that you filed on the 5th, this -- this

 6     report, would have dealt with HV casualties in Operation Summer 95.

 7     Correct?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that 65 ter 1D2997 be marked

11     and I tender it into evidence.

12             MR. CARRIER:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1740.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D1740 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have on the screen,

17     please, 65 ter 1D2998, please.

18        Q.   This is, again, a report of the 5th of August to the commander of

19     OG North, and the report is about killed, wounded and injured in

20     Operation Kozjak 95 for 4 August 1995.  That would be part of

21     Operation Storm.  And if we look through the first page, you identify

22     wounded and injured of the 7th Guards Brigade.

23             MR. MISETIC:  If we turn the page, please.

24        Q.   You then identify three members of the 7th Guards Brigade as

25     having been killed in combat on the 4th of August.

Page 23327

 1             Mr. Sruk, would this have been -- looking at this report, is

 2     this, in fact, a report that you filed with Operative Group North on the

 3     5th of August, 1995?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this be marked and I

 6     tender it into evidence.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1741.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D1741 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. MISETIC:

12        Q.   And, finally, Mr. Sruk, there was, in fact, a third report, and I

13     will put that on the screen.

14             MR. MISETIC:  This is 65 ter 1D2999.

15        Q.   This is also a report of 5 August to the commander of OG North,

16     report on killed, wounded and injured in Kozjak 95, for 5 August 1995.

17             And if you look through that, you will see wounded and injured on

18     the first page, members of the 7th Guards Brigade of the Croatian Army.

19             MR. MISETIC:  And if we turn the page.

20        Q.   It also identifies two wounded or injured from the

21     4th Guards Brigade, several from -- two from the Special Police of the

22     MUP of Herceg-Bosna and two members of the 4th Guards Brigade as having

23     been killed.

24             Is this a report, Doctor, that you in fact filed with

25     Operative Group North on the 5th of August, 1995?

Page 23328

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Doctor, is it fair to say that the reports that you referenced in

 3     your witness statement, none of the reports that you filed on

 4     5th of August related to -- to Serb soldiers or civilians being injured

 5     or killed?

 6        A.   No.  I did not come across them at the time.  I did not have such

 7     information.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that 65 ter 1D2999 be marked

 9     and I tender it into evidence.

10             MR. CARRIER:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1742.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D1742 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Doctor, you -- in your direct examination, you discussed

16     General Cervenko's order on the 5th of August to form mixed sanitation

17     teams.  When was the first time that you actually saw General Cervenko's

18     order?

19        A.   It was after I received the order by General Gotovina dated the

20     11th of August.  I heard the rumour that this order was in fact issued,

21     that the order by General Gotovina was being prepared, and I asked for

22     the original order to be delivered to me.  Since this had to do with

23     mixed teams and bearing in mind that I was a chief in the

24     Operations Group North until the 9th, I asked for this, and I received it

25     immediately after I received the order by General Gotovina on the 11th.

Page 23329

 1     This was the first time I saw it.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's take a look at General Gotovina's order from the

 3     11th of August.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have on the screen,

 5     please, Exhibit P496.

 6        Q.   Now, this is the 11th of August order, referencing in the

 7     preamble, General Cervenko's orders of the 5th of August.  And point 2

 8     discusses the formation of operative groups for various towns.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to paragraph 4, which is the

10     next page in this document, please.  Numbered paragraph 4.

11        Q.   It identifies various tasks that need to be completed.  You can

12     see there, for example, point 4 is, the group must have -- I'm sorry.  It

13     describes who was going to comprise these groups.  And paragraph 4.4 says

14     a forensic technician and forensic operative.  Paragraph 4.10 identifies

15     persons for the clear-up of human bodies, five workers.

16             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to the next page, please.  And we're

17     going to have to flip back and forth a little bit, Mr. Registrar, I

18     apologise for this.  If we can go to, again, the next page, paragraph 5.

19        Q.   You'll see that General Gotovina then says:

20             "The personnel and equipment for items 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8, and

21     4.13 are to be provided ..."

22             And then request we go down to 5f:  For the Sibenik clear-up ...

23     from the Sibenik squad of the 306th Logistics Base.

24             Now, in answer to my first question, you had indicated that after

25     the 9th of August you, in fact, had returned back to the 306th Logistics

Page 23330

 1     Base.  Correct?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   If you keep in mind the numbers in the order as to what the --

 4     what the Sibenik 306th Logistics Base was supposed to be doing, we need

 5     to look back at 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8 and 4.13.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  So if we could flip back one page, Mr. Registrar.

 7        Q.   So your logistics base was charged with providing an ambulance

 8     vehicle with a physician and medic, an ABKO squad with an M68 or M78

 9     water truck; a combat security squad, engineers comprising of one

10     combined trench digger and two drivers.

11             MR. MISETIC:  And then if we could turn the page in English,

12     please.

13        Q.   And a personal vehicle for the commander of the clear-up of the

14     operative group.

15             And now if we scroll down to 6, paragraph 6, General Gotovina

16     says:

17             "Personnel and equipment for items 4.2, 4.3, 4.4, 4.10, and 4.11

18     shall be provided by the Zadar-Knin county police administration, the

19     Sibenik police administration, for item 5f, and the Split-Dalmatia police

20     administrations for item 5g.

21             MR. MISETIC:  So if we can go back now to the previous page in

22     English.

23        Q.   So the MUP was charged with, under 4.2, having a Deputy Commander

24     of the clear-up; 4.3 is an explosives expert; 4.4 was having a forensic

25     technician and forensic operative; and 4.10 was the MUP was supposed to

Page 23331

 1     be providing the persons for the clear-up of human bodies of the workers.

 2             Now, this order, is that in fact how after the 11th of August the

 3     work tasks were divided, that essentially the HV was providing logistical

 4     support, and the MUP was providing the forensic technicians and the

 5     personnel to clear up human bodies?

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Sruk.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

10             Mr. Carrier, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Sruk?

11             MR. CARRIER:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, you will now be cross-examined by

13     Mr. Carrier.  Mr. Carrier is counsel for the Prosecution.

14             Please proceed.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Carrier:

16        Q.   Mr. Sruk, when you arrived Knin, were you aware that Dr. Brkic

17     was already there, starting on the 5th of August, 1995?

18        A.   No.  I saw him only on the 7th.

19        Q.   So just to clarify, is it your position that he was not there; or

20     you just didn't know whether or not, in fact, Dr. Brkic was already

21     there?

22        A.   I arrived on the morning of the 6th.  I'm not sure what had been

23     happening on the 5th, and I saw him on the 7th of August.

24        Q.   I'm just trying to clarify your evidence today because at

25     page 30, starting at about line 1 and on through half the page, with

Page 23332

 1     respect to the exhumation of bodies that took place in the cemetery, you

 2     said that Dr. Brkic arrived on the 7th, that he was not in Knin on the

 3     6th.

 4             So is it that you just don't know if he was there on the 6th

 5     either, or the 5th or -- I mean, he could have been around, you just

 6     don't know?  You're just assuming that here?

 7        A.   During the 6th, throughout the day, I was in touch with very many

 8     people belonging to the medical corps and sanitation teams, and it would

 9     have been very strange that I didn't come across him or that he didn't

10     look us up in fact.  So I cannot claim that he wasn't there, but I didn't

11     see him.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, Mr. Sruk, there's a lot more information in that

13     answer that you just gave than was necessary.  The answer is no, you

14     didn't know whether he was there on the 5th or the 6th.  You just don't

15     know; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you know Mr. Zeljko Jonjic from the 306th Logistics Base?

18        A.   Jonjic?  Jonjic?

19        Q.   Jonjic.

20        A.   Yes, I do know a Jonjic.

21        Q.   And were you aware that he was temporarily assigned to the Knin

22     garrison in August 1995 as assistant for logistics at General Cermak 's

23     request?

24        A.   Later on, seven or eight days later, I learned that he was

25     assigned there along with some other people.  But during the first four

Page 23333

 1     or five days, I wasn't aware of that.

 2        Q.   But during those first four or five days, did you see that person

 3     in and around Knin at all?

 4        A.   Earlier I saw him, but during the first four or five days that I

 5     spent in Knin, I didn't see him.

 6        Q.   Mr. Sruk, I just want to try to clarify something in your

 7     statement, and just let me know if I'm mischaracterising this at all, but

 8     is it fair to say that, in essence, your position is that, as far as you

 9     are aware, General Cermak was not officially involved in the sanitation

10     operation conducted after Storm and that, as far as you know, he had no

11     authority over those people that were conducting that sanitation

12     operation?

13        A.   In the first four or five days, particularly in the first two

14     days, he certainly had no authority, because he was never mentioned by

15     anybody concerning this particular matter.  Later on, I don't know.

16        Q.   And just to be clear, even -- even though you hadn't heard

17     General Cermak mentioned in the first few days, it's just that you don't

18     know exactly exam his role was, if he had any at all, with the sanitation

19     operation being conducted.  Is that fair?

20        A.   I really do not know what was his role in respect to the civil

21     protection.  But everything that started about noon on the 6th was

22     carried out by the civilian protection service of the Ministry of the

23     Interior.  What was his role in respect of them, I really don't know.

24        Q.   And with respect to Dr. Brkic, in your statement and during your

25     testimony, you said that you're obviously aware that he was in Knin

Page 23334

 1     during August 1995.  In your statement, you said you did not cooperate

 2     with him officially.  And you said that during your testimony, that you

 3     weren't officially cooperating with him, and the same goes for, as far as

 4     I understood it, General Cermak, that you weren't ordered to do that, but

 5     you mentioned it as an official cooperation.

 6             Did you cooperate with either of these people unofficially or

 7     informally in any way, with respect to the sanitation operation?

 8        A.   With General Cermak, no.  I hardly saw him.  Twice in Knin.  Once

 9     when he came, and on another occasion I passed by him.

10             When it comes to Dr. Brkic, I never cooperated him regarding the

11     sanitation.  Neither officially nor unofficially.

12        Q.   And just very briefly with respect to the order that you've

13     looked at today with Mr. Kay and also during the time when you gave your

14     statement, the order from General Cermak appointing you to the sanitation

15     staff, you said today, I believe, that, you know, no one else or none of

16     your superiors were aware of that order.  Were you aware that when

17     Dr. Brkic, in those reports that you also looked at during the time you

18     gave your statement, had actually attached that order from General Cermak

19     to those reports, and he sent them to Defence Minister Susak,

20     Main Staff -- chief of the Main Staff, General Cervenko; the assistant

21     minister for defence for logistics, Major-General Zagarac.  He also sent

22     it to the commander of the Split Military District, General Gotovina.  He

23     also sent that order to chief of civil protection, Mr. Cimiran.

24             Were you ever aware or did you ever become aware of the fact that

25     this order from General Cermak that appointed you had been circulating

Page 23335

 1     through all these people, some of which, if I'm not mistaken, are in fact

 2     superior to you?

 3        A.   The order and the reports that you are mentioning, I saw them for

 4     the first time two months ago, when they were shown to me by Mr. Cermak's

 5     Defence team.

 6        Q.   So even though all those names are mentioned in there, and you

 7     went through them today and picked out who they were and that you knew

 8     them, despite the fact that these were circulating around, you were never

 9     aware of it in any way.  No one ever talked about it, no one filed a

10     contemporaneous report, order or some kind of direction contesting that

11     order.

12             You are not aware of anything like that during the period?

13        A.   Sir, at the time, it was difficult to believe in rumours, and

14     even if anybody told me something, I would not have believed it.  The

15     times were very serious.  Unfortunately, or luckily, even the people

16     belonging to my team, whom I mentioned previously, were not aware of

17     this.  Had they known about this, they would have told me so, and I

18     probably would have acted upon it in some way.

19        Q.   During August 1995, did you ever attend any meetings that were

20     held by --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- could we seek a clarification of the previous

22     answer, Mr. Carrier.

23             You were asked whether you were not aware of anything like people

24     talking about the order, or receiving a contemporaneous report.  Then

25     your answer was:

Page 23336

 1             "It was difficult to believe in rumours."

 2             And then later you said:

 3             "Even the people belonging to my team were not aware of this."

 4             Were there any rumours?  Whether you believed them or not is

 5     another ...

 6             So you did not hear anyone talk about it, whether you believed it

 7     or not?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Sruk, did you ever attend any meetings that were held by

13     General Cermak during August 1995?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Would you have any explanation if Mr. Jonjic placed you at

16     meetings held by General Cermak during 1995?

17        A.   No.  No, I certainly did not attend them.  And for a long time, I

18     was not aware of the location of the garrison command.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Sruk, I just want to clarify another part of your

20     statement.  And again correct me if I'm mischaracterising this.  Is it

21     fair that in essence your position with respect to Dr. Brkic is that

22     effectively he was a self-promotor that went to Knin on his own accord,

23     and he simply tried to adopted and report on the work of the people who

24     were actually involved in sanitation operation, conducted during

25     August 1995, to make himself look important?

Page 23337

 1        A.   On the 13th or the 14th of August, 1995, Mr. Brkic was removed

 2     from his duty, at a time when he was still in Knin, which is yet another

 3     indication of the fact that he was there without the knowledge of his

 4     superiors, on his own initiative.

 5             How can one explain the date of the 5th of August, when

 6     General Cermak, or I, or any of those mentioned in the order were not

 7     there, nor did he know whether we were dead or alive?  By that time, I

 8     had already spent four and a half years in the armed forces, and the fact

 9     is that my name was known in these circles.  All these orders sent in --

10     in this chaotic way, without the respect for the chain of command, point

11     me or lead me to conclude -- led me to conclude and still lead me to

12     conclude that whatever he did was for his self-promotion by drawing upon

13     the achievements of others and the jobs performed by others.

14             When it comes to me, when I got there, I found that the job had

15     been properly and thoroughly done by the civilian protection service in

16     those four to five days before General Gotovina issued his order and some

17     order was brought to the whole set-up.

18             Now, the fact that there is mention of me in these reports sent

19     to the Main Staff and Generals, I believe is completely misplaced,

20     because I was not there.  When we first had the occasion to get

21     acquainted with Mr. Brkic, it all became quite clear to us.

22        Q.   Now, you say that he was removed from his duty on 13th or

23     14th of August, 1995.  I'm not aware of that.  Can you explain that a bit

24     more?  Who removed him?  How do you know about that?  What is your actual

25     knowledge of that?

Page 23338

 1        A.   The documents shown to me confirm this, although I don't have an

 2     order to that effect, or as the ministry would normally issue decisions,

 3     I can only see his signature in a report where he reports to the chief of

 4     the Main Staff, General Cervenko, on all these tasks that had been

 5     referred in the various reports referenced by Mr. Kay here.

 6             This goes to prove that he was no longer the chief of the health

 7     administration of the Ministry of Defence, but, rather, that he was

 8     transferred to the staff.  Let me tell you that the hierarchy --

 9        Q.   Okay, Mr. Brkic [sic], I'm going to cut you off.

10        A.   -- in the ministry, although it was not a military hierarchy --

11        Q.   I'm going to cut you off, Mr. -- sorry, Mr. Sruk, I have to cut

12     you off because it is not really answering the question.  It is a very

13     specific question.

14             I'd like to know without assuming anything, because now you're

15     coming up with an explanation based on assumptions, what specifically do

16     you know about him being removed from his post on the 13th or

17     14th of August?  And do you actually know that, or are you just assuming

18     it?

19        A.   No, I know this for a fact.  I don't know the exact date.

20             Now, what I was trying to explain to you just now is that in the

21     documents that exist - I have them in my bag here, and they were shown to

22     me by Mr. Cermak's Defence a couple of months ago - you can see that he

23     no longer signed with the title of the chief of health administration of

24     the Ministry of Defence but as a chief in the staff.  I have a document

25     indicating this.  I don't know it off the cuff, but if you show it to me,

Page 23339

 1     I can indicate that section to you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, what you're actually doing is drawing

 3     conclusions from a difference in the way that documents were signed by

 4     Mr. Brkic.

 5             Do you have any other knowledge, that is, direct knowledge, that

 6     could be -- well, could perhaps be explained in many ways.  But do you

 7     have any other specific knowledge of Mr. Brkic being removed from his

 8     job?

 9             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, there is reference in the Brkic reports

10     to:  "I hope I have justified my presence.  Dr. Zdilar has helped me a

11     great deal.  For instance" --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you -- yes.

13             MR. KAY:  If I give you the reference.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

15             MR. KAY:  It's in these multiplied reports --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

17             MR. KAY:  -- D1060 --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.  There are two different matters.

19             MR. KAY:  Oh sorry.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The first is what this witness knows and from what

21     sources.  And the second is, I mean, I can state something where it's

22     unclear where my knowledge comes from, even whether I have proper

23     knowledge, which does not necessarily mean that what I'm say something

24     not correct or true.  Nevertheless, I would appreciate if you give me the

25     reference.

Page 23340

 1             MR. KAY:  I think it's relevant to the question if the witness is

 2     being tested on his --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- if you give me the --

 4             MR. KAY:  D1060, page 2 in the English.  If you go to P543, last

 5     page in the English.  And it's a phrase that's repeated in these reports

 6     that he sent around.

 7             That's all I say.  I don't know whether the witness is being

 8     challenged or whether the fact is being challenge.  But it --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  That's -- that is still -- as a matter of fact,

10     I wasn't challenging any fact.  I was just -- where Mr. Carrier asked the

11     witness what the source of his knowledge was, I then verified whether

12     this was the exclusive source or whether he had any other source of

13     knowledge.  That's what we were doing, and now you're pointing us to the

14     substance of what the witness said, and I -- I'm glad to -- to verify

15     that.  But that's a different matter.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Mr. Sruk, in relation to your characterisation of Dr. Brkic, you

19     also state that General Cermak did not have enough knowledge to know what

20     it was that Dr. Brkic was doing, in effect.  Can you explain your factual

21     basis for knowing what it was that General Cermak actually knew about

22     what General Brkic was doing or anything else to do with the sanitation

23     operation happening in Knin during August 1997 -- or 1995.

24        A.   I said that General Cermak evidently didn't have all the

25     information, because he signed an order with me as the Deputy Chief for

Page 23341

 1     sanitation; whereas, I had different commanders.  My chain of command was

 2     a different one, which led me to conclude that he was not privy to the

 3     facts or that the facts were not presented to him.

 4        Q.   So just to be clear, is it fair to say that you don't know

 5     exactly what General Cermak knew about the sanitation operation or

 6     exactly what his relationship was with Dr. Brkic during August 1995?

 7        A.   I don't know the extent of his knowledge or the nature of his

 8     relationship with Dr. Brkic.

 9        Q.   Mr. Sruk, I just want to turn now to the -- that hole you saw in

10     the Knin cemetery again.  And I think we've sorted it out.  You weren't

11     really sure when Dr. Brkic was in Knin in early August 1995, yet in your

12     statement and today, you're describing a situation where you're saying

13     that you're sure that those bodies that you saw earlier in the day on the

14     6th of August had been buried properly, and that basically you're saying

15     that Dr. Brkic's account of this instance is not true, that you know

16     basically that these bodies were properly buried on the evening of the

17     6th of August.  And so there is no way that all these reports where

18     Dr. Brkic is reporting on an improper burial, those are all incorrect.

19             Is that fair?

20        A.   I said and described what I saw.  Now, what Dr. Brkic saw and

21     when, I don't know.  The dead bodies were disinterred from the hole and

22     buried in accordance with the standards.  What I don't know is whether

23     they were registered and identified.  I know that the bodies were

24     individually buried and that the hole was filled in.

25             Suspicions are merely suspicions.  I'm describing what I saw with

Page 23342

 1     my own two eyes.  I'm not telling you the stories I heard from others.  I

 2     was lucky enough to see the end result, and I am still proud of the fact

 3     that we were able -- or, rather, other people were able to do it properly

 4     and that I was able to witness it.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So I take it there would be absolutely no reason for the

 6     Ministry of Interior to dig up those bodies again on the

 7     11th of August and rebury them?

 8        A.   I don't understand the question.

 9        Q.   The question is this:  Given your testimony and your statement,

10     that you went to -- well, in your statement you went to the Knin cemetery

11     twice.  During your testimony you went three times to basically witness

12     this proper burial of bodies, which you initially saw a hole that wasn't

13     proper, and you went back.  You wanted to make sure it was going to be

14     done properly, and you're testifying that it was done properly.

15             My question is:  If that is what happened, then you can think of

16     no reason why Dr. Brkic would be ordering that the hole that he was

17     referring to be dug up and the bodies be buried properly?

18        A.   I have never heard of that.

19             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have document number

20     65 ter 7162 on the screen, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Sruk, what's going to come up on the screen is a report from

22     the chief of the Zadar-Knin police administration, Mr. Cetina, dated

23     12 August 1995.  And if you look at this report, Mr. Cetina indicates

24     that on orders from Dr. Brkic, an exhumation took place on the

25     11th of August, 1995, in the Knin cemetery, in respect of bodies that

Page 23343

 1     were buried before the 7th of August, 1995, contrary to the regulations

 2     of international law.  Mr. Cetina describes transferring bodies and

 3     burying them in appropriate places and changing certain identification

 4     numbers.

 5             So my question for you, Mr. Sruk, is:  How do you reconcile your

 6     observations of the 6th of August and your testimony that these were

 7     properly buried with Mr. Cetina's report about bodies being exhumed and

 8     transferred for burial in appropriate place on the 11th, on orders of

 9     Dr. Brkic?

10        A.   This is the first time I'm seeing this.  I don't know if it

11     refers to the same site.  I don't know if something was done

12     subsequently.  I can stand by what I said and saw, which was that the

13     matter was dealt with properly.  What this was about, I really don't

14     know.  I have never seen it before.

15        Q.   So am I to understand your evidence is now that you're not sure

16     if the hole you saw is now the same one that you had referred to earlier

17     as the one that Dr. Brkic was talking about.  It could be a different

18     one, a different site.  I think we can agree it's the Knin cemetery,

19     though; right?

20        A.   The pit I was referring to and have been discussing all along has

21     been clearly identified by me.  It was right next to the gate and to the

22     chapel.  This is the detail I was discussing.  Whether there were others,

23     that's something I don't know.

24        Q.   And given the document, can you offer any explanation as to how

25     it is that Dr. Brkic is issuing orders to people involved in the

Page 23344

 1     sanitation process, specifically members of the Ministry of Interior?

 2        A.   I didn't want to comment on it.  I find it strange.  It wasn't

 3     either customary or envisaged by any rules.  The MUP is a civilian

 4     organisation; the armed forces and the Ministry of Defence have a

 5     separate chain of command.  How this came about is something I cannot

 6     comment on.  I don't know.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honours, I ask that that document be marked as

 8     an exhibit, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, any objections.

10             MR. KAY:  No objections, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2652.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

15             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Mr. Sruk, would you have any explanation as to why General Cermak

17     would say to Prosecution investigators that Dr. Brkic was in charge of

18     the Knin cemetery with respect to burial of bodies during the beginning

19     of August 1995?

20        A.   I don't know that.

21        Q.   And, Mr. Sruk, just to be fair to you, is it just that you don't

22     know really anything about who was in -- or specifically in command and

23     control, issuing orders, instructions, that type of thing, to the civil

24     protection bodies involved in sanitation operation after Storm?

25        A.   Yes, I do know.  I don't know about the first one or two days.

Page 23345

 1     Later on, it was Mr. Cicak.  And to the best of my knowledge, he was in

 2     command of or in charge of or coordinating his -- I cannot call them

 3     units.  His department -- or how should I call it?  I don't know what the

 4     title was, the civilian department, and he ran the department.  I know

 5     that he was coordinating these activities.  I wouldn't say that he was in

 6     command.  I don't know what the official terminology of the time was.

 7        Q.   And -- sorry, is that Mr. Cicak or Mr. Cicko?

 8        A.   I think his name is Cicak.  Cicak.  Cicek.

 9        Q.   So if I suggest to that you Damir Cicko was actually the

10     representative of the Ministry of the Interior coordinator for the

11     sanitation of Knin, you don't know anything about that?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  It has to do with him.  But, you see, it's been

13     15 years.  Whether it was Cicko or Cicek, it's the same as with Jonjic or

14     Janic.  We agreed that it was one and the same person we had in mind.

15        Q.   And do you know a person named Damir Cimiran.  This is the

16     assistant -- the chief of the civil protection.  And he was, according to

17     Assistant Minister Zidovec, the main civil protection official on the

18     ground after Operation Storm, and he was tasked with supervising and

19     coordinating the work of civil protection units on the ground.

20             Do you know that person?

21        A.   No.  I wasn't a member of any team charged with coordinating.

22     What happened on the evening of the 6th was the extent of my intervention

23     into the sanitation process in Knin, excluding the battlefield.

24        Q.   So I take it, then, you would have no information about

25     Mr. Cimiran reporting to the Assistant Minister who's the head of civil

Page 23346

 1     protection, Minister Zidovec, where he actually references to Dr. Brkic

 2     in reports and interactions between Dr. Brkic and civil protection, and

 3     even cites some disagreements between or disagreement at least between

 4     Mr. Cicko and Dr. Brkic with regard to how to bury bodies.  You don't

 5     know anything about that?

 6        A.   Not from personal knowledge.  I was told that there were

 7     confrontations, conflicts and misunderstanding.  I can't confirm them.  I

 8     only heard about them.

 9        Q.   And you're talking about conflicts between individuals and groups

10     involved in the sanitation process, and those people having conflicts

11     with Dr. Brkic.

12        A.   I'm referring specifically to the conflict between Mr. Cicko and

13     Dr. Brkic.  I'm not referring to groups.  I'm not aware of there being

14     more than one group, and that was the civilian protection.

15        Q.   And, Mr. Sruk, in -- were you aware that soon after this report I

16     just referred to, from Chief Cimiran about the conflict between Mr. Cicko

17     and Dr. Brkic, that General Cermak specifically requested that Mr. Cicko

18     be transferred from civil defence or civil protection on to his staff for

19     the sanitation in the Knin garrison?

20             Do you have any information or do you know that?

21        A.   At the time, I didn't know anything about it.  I saw a piece of

22     information two months ago when I was presented some documents.  I wasn't

23     aware of it before.

24             MR. KAY:  Can we see the document that has been cited by the

25     Prosecutor?

Page 23347

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, can you assist Mr. Kay?

 2             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, I'm referring to D1058.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Sruk, you mention one of the things when you reviewed

 4     that request was that you said that General Cermak didn't have the

 5     authority to issue orders to two people, specifically Mr. Radovic or

 6     Ms. Soldic.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have document number

 8     65 ter 55 -- sorry, if we could have Exhibit D610 on the screen.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Sruk, what you're going to see on the screen in front of

10     you is actually an order issued by General Cermak to both of those people

11     to whom you said he doesn't have the authority to do that.  And that's in

12     relation to sanitation of the terrain in Knin, and it's copying Dr. Brkic

13     at the bottom.

14             Does that change your mind at all about General Cermak's

15     authority to issue orders to those people?

16        A.   I'm not changing my mind.  He could not issue such orders.  Now,

17     there is no signature or initials, so I can only assume that he ordered

18     this to Mr. Radovic and Madam Soldic in the same way in which he issued

19     an order to me.  But he couldn't do it because the command line was

20     totally different.  So obviously this was ... this was supplanted to him.

21        Q.   But is it --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, can I ask you, you say there is no

23     signature.  Could you explain that answer, in view of what I see on the

24     screen?  Apart from whose signature it is, but I see something which

25     appears to me to be a signature.

Page 23348

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please let me explain.

 2     You probably did not understand what I was saying.

 3             On the left-hand side, it was customary for those of who wrote

 4     proposals of orders as associates of our commanders on the left-hand side

 5     to put our initials.  First of all, you had initials of person that

 6     authored the proposal/the person who actually wrote/typed the proposal.

 7             For example, if I was drafting this particular document, on the

 8     left-hand side just above this where it says, To, to whom it should be

 9     delivered, it would be written BS/BS.  Everybody knew that this meant

10     that I authored the document.  The person who signed the document and the

11     person who would receive the document knew it.  So, until the commander

12     signed it, it was just a proposal.  And this would mean that I authored

13     and that I actually typed it.  If I didn't type it in person, then the

14     initials of another person would be next to mine.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, I have no problem in hearing your

16     testimony about what you would expect on a -- on an order, as far as who

17     would have drafted that and whether you would find initials.

18             You said there's no signature.  The only question I asked you is

19     what I look at this document, I see a signature.  So apart from -- I

20     didn't ask you any question about the absence of initials.  I just asked

21     you about what you said about the signature.

22             Anything to add, in relation to the signature?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there may have been a

24     misunderstanding.  I said that there were no initials.  I did not refer

25     to the signature that you can see on the screen.

Page 23349

 1             So it was a misunderstanding.  When I was saying I was actually

 2     indicating that there should have been initials, and on top of that, the

 3     signature.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  Did you say -- because I'm a bit

 5     confused about your last answer.  You said:

 6             "I said that there were no initials.  I did not refer to the

 7     signature that can you see on the screen."

 8             So you didn't use the word "signature" apart from the word

 9     "initial"?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that we would have to ask our

12     transcribers or our interpreters why they make a mistake, or is it

13     possible that you use the word "signature."  We can consult the original

14     words you used.

15             Are you certain that you did not use the word "signature" in your

16     answer?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did use it, but I did not refer

18     to this signature, to another signature that I explained later on, and

19     that was my mistake.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you be very careful in even suggesting

21     that our interpreters and our transcribers are not properly doing their

22     job.  I would have expected your answer to be, I used the word

23     "signature" but in a different context, and then you could have explained

24     that.  Whereas you suggested that you did not use that word.  But now I

25     hear that you did use that word, so that, therefore, our transcribers and

Page 23350

 1     interpreters are doing their job properly.

 2             Is the message clear, Mr. Sruk?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

 5             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Just where we left off, Mr. Sruk, you said that, as far as you

 7     know, General Cermak didn't have the authority to issue these orders.

 8     But you have already told us that you don't really know what

 9     General Cermak's authority was, what his relationship was to specific

10     people, for instance, Dr. Brkic, what his relationship was with the civil

11     protection.

12             So can you explain what your actual factual basis is for -- for

13     testifying that General Cermak couldn't issue these types of orders to

14     these people?

15        A.   As far as I knew by then, the commanders of garrisons were not in

16     the same command line with unit commanders.

17             If I have a commander, and Mr. Radovic has it, and if they have a

18     superior assistant for logistics at the ministry, Madam Soldic, it

19     follows for me, and particularly now when I saw all of this, that

20     General Cermak, as a commander of the garrison, could not issue orders to

21     these people without having consulted other instances.

22        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Sruk, I thought we covered this off, but let's go

23     through it quickly.

24             Do you -- or did you, during August 1995, ever learn the details

25     of who it was that actually had appointed General Cermak to his position

Page 23351

 1     in Knin?

 2        A.   No.  I didn't know that.  It -- I was not interested in that

 3     either, because my tasks were entirely different.  I was not a politician

 4     but a soldier.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Stop.  I'm cutting you off, sir.  I'm cutting you off

 6     because the question wasn't about what you were interested in; it's about

 7     what you know.

 8             So it fair to say that you did not know the precise parameters of

 9     the authority or the tasks that had been assigned to General Cermak in

10     Knin in August 1995?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   So given that answer, how can you accurately or honestly give any

13     answers about what kinds of orders or to whom General Cermak could issue

14     orders during August 1995?

15        A.   It is difficult to describe briefly the rules of the game, so to

16     say, of what the Croatian Army was doing.  If I had an order which --

17        Q.   Mr. Sruk --

18        A.   Please allow me to explain.

19        Q.   Mr. Sruk --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, it is fair to the witness that can he

21     briefly explain what he means.

22             Could you briefly explain what is the basis on which you can give

23     your opinion or assessment of the competence of Mr. Cermak issuing

24     orders, like the ones we've looked at.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 23352

 1             As I started to say, until then, I had a valid order, and my

 2     commander was the commander of the Operations Group North, and I had

 3     clear instructions as to what to do.  All of a sudden, without my

 4     knowledge, there comes somebody else who issues an order of an entirely

 5     different nature, of an entirely different type, and a different field of

 6     activity.  From this comes my statement when I said that even if I knew

 7     about this order on the 6th of August, 1995, I could not have implemented

 8     it, because my old orders were still valid.  Such were the rules of the

 9     game.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Although it's not an answer to what Mr. Carrier

11     asked you, I understand your position to be that, since you had no reason

12     to believe that Mr. Cermak would have the authority to issue orders which

13     were contradicting the orders you earlier received, that -- if would you

14     have been aware of this order, you may not have implemented it.

15             Is that correctly understood?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's move on, Mr. Carrier.

18             MR. CARRIER:

19        Q.   Mr. Sruk, with respect to the sanitation operation happening in

20     and around Knin during August 1995 and following, is it not the case that

21     the Knin garrison was responsible for organising, among other things, the

22     logistics for that operation?

23        A.   Until August the 11th, when the order was issued by

24     General Gotovina, then it became clear who is supposed to provide

25     logistical support to whom and for what.  Until then, all that I knew was

Page 23353

 1     that civilian protection of the Ministry of the Interior was in charge

 2     and was carrying out sanitation tasks.  Who supported them, I really

 3     don't know.  Where they got their shovels, I don't know.  I know they had

 4     them.

 5        Q.   Well, Mr. Sruk, I'm going to suggest to you that, in fact, the

 6     Knin garrison was involved in not only coordinating logistics but also

 7     issuing instructions and other types of information regarding the

 8     sanitation operation occurring in and around Knin during August and

 9     September 1995.

10        A.   Thank you for this information.

11        Q.   You don't dispute that; you just don't know?

12        A.   I'm not sure where the garrison, during this first four or five

13     days, could be able to find logistic support and provide logistic support

14     to anybody given the situation in Knin at the time.  So I'm talking about

15     the first four or five days.  I'm talking about what I know but I'm not

16     certain.

17             So it is my assumption, based on what I know and what I saw.  I'm

18     not sure where could I find any support or equipment.

19        Q.   Well, Mr. Sruk, they found it, I think, in your home base, the

20     Sibenik Logistics Base.  Were you aware of that?

21        A.   Yes.  Later on, following General Gotovina's order of August the

22     11th.  But for the first three or four days, I doubt it.  I know that the

23     civilian protection brought their own uniforms, equipment, everything

24     they needed, including trucks.  And everything else they brought

25     themselves.

Page 23354

 1        Q.   So you don't dispute that the Knin garrison was certainly

 2     involved in assisting with the sanitation process --

 3             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, the witness has answered this question in

 4     many different forms.  It's not a question to say -- the way it is put,

 5     "So you don't dispute that," that's not the way of questioning him.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, I think that the position of the

 7     witness in relation to the matter you raise in your last question is

 8     clear.  If there is any specific point you would like to further address,

 9     you can do so.  But we're now, again, back in the rather general -- in a

10     rather general assessment of the situation, which has proven to -- to

11     create more confusion than clarity.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I was about to get into

14     some specifics.

15        Q.   Mr. Sruk, were you aware of any kind of communication happening

16     between civil defence or civil protection units making certain complaints

17     and then the Knin garrison, in turn, acting on that and rectifying those

18     complaints.  Are you aware of that?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, would it help to put a time-frame to

20     your question, that is, up to the 11th of August, because that might play

21     a role.

22             MR. CARRIER:

23        Q.   During any time in August or September 1995.  And I can give a

24     couple of examples, one of which Dr. Brkic requesting 350 crosses for the

25     burial of -- referred to as Chetniks.  Putting together eight boilers so

Page 23355

 1     that the civil protection staff can shower in Knin, which seems to be in

 2     response to a complaint made by the chief of civilian protection,

 3     Mr. Cimiran.  I'm just wondering whether you're aware of anything of that

 4     sort.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it possible to add, for the Chamber's

 6     information, dates to it.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  It's, for reference purposes --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you can --

 9             MR. CARRIER:  It's in D1015, which is the 29 September 1995

10     report on logistics from Mr. Jonjic.  The dates are not specific.  It

11     just gives a general list of things they were doing, so it is not

12     specified by date, but, rather, a range of dates.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

14             MR. CARRIER:

15        Q.   Mr. Sruk, do you think any about the 350 crosses or the -- making

16     shower facilities or anything like that?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I was a major charged with orders issued by my

18     superiors for very specific tasks.  I have no idea about shower

19     facilities or crosses that were requested by anybody.  I mentioned

20     previously I saw some ten crosses in the cemetery.  They were placed

21     appropriately where the graves were.  There was no way I could have known

22     about this because I still claim that I never belonged to any of the

23     logistic teams.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't know, unless there are any further

25     questions on your knowledge, just tell us that you don't know, and then

Page 23356

 1     whether you should have known is a totally different matter.  There's no

 2     need to explain why you do not know what you say you do not know.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

 4             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Sruk, turning to Dr. Gotovac.  You remember that person you

 6     discussed today.  You mentioned that he is from the Ministry of Defence

 7     Health Administration.

 8             Now, you're also aware that Dr. Brkic was actually the chief of

 9     that health administration, right?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And what you describe in relation to Dr. Gotovac is that there

12     was an official role being fulfilled by Dr. Gotovac, in terms of --

13             MR. CARRIER:  I just want to find the reference.  It's just at

14     the end of page 23 of today's testimony, onto page 24.

15        Q.   That that person was there to oversee the sanitation process

16     during August 1995.

17             Now, my question is:  If this person, Dr. Gotovac, who was

18     subordinated to Dr. Brkic, is doing that, I'm going to suggest to you

19     that in fact that's also what Dr. Brkic was there doing, was to oversee

20     the sanitation process and make suggestions for how to improve it,

21     et cetera, as it went along.

22        A.   The part in which I mentioned Dr. Gotovac, I said that he was in

23     charge of monitoring.

24             Let me explain.  He visited the entire field and he reported on

25     what he saw.  So what was being done, in which way, and what should have

Page 23357

 1     been done.  He did not participate directly in the sanitation activities.

 2        Q.   And what I'm suggesting is that his job and Dr. Brkic's job was

 3     to actually oversee that process.  Is that fair?  And if -- to refresh

 4     your memory, we could look at a document you looked at in your statement,

 5     which is D1059, which is a report signed by both Dr. Brkic and

 6     Dr. Gotovac, dated the 12th of August, 1995, sent to General Cermak.

 7             And if it helps you out at all, there is also another document

 8     that's in evidence which is a report dated the 20th of August, 1995,

 9     which is over a week after you say Dr. Brkic was removed, which is a

10     report sent to Dr. Brkic from Dr. Gotovac, and that's P2572, which

11     indicates that their activity after Operation Storm was a regular duty of

12     the health administration; namely, to supervise the professional work

13     related to human sanitation.  It also mentions that they acted pursuant

14     to an order of the chief of the Main Staff.  Dr. Gotovac, as you state,

15     recounts a reconnaissance of the human sanitation operation.

16             It also mentions that where discrepancies were detected from the

17     established practice, verbal instructions were issued to both the police

18     and the civil protection members, in order to eliminate such failures,

19     and those people in turn gave assurances that such failures would be

20     eliminated.  And this is also consistent with how Dr. Brkic starts off

21     all of his reports to all those high-placed Croatian authorities saying,

22     That this is the regular task of his administration.

23             So my question to you:  Isn't it, on the basis of these

24     documents, do you have any information about whether or not Dr. Brkic's

25     role was to oversee the sanitation process, just like you say Dr. Gotovac

Page 23358

 1     was doing?

 2        A.   Could I kindly see the document that you have just referred to?

 3        Q.   Yes.  You can see it.  It's --

 4             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. Registrar, if could you call up Exhibit P2572

 5     onto the screen.

 6        Q.   And, Dr. Sruk, just so -- for your reference, the other document

 7     I had referred to -- I believe you said you have documents with you, but

 8     that's the one that's countersigned by both Dr. Brkic and Dr. Gotovac,

 9     and that's dated the 12th of August.

10        A.   Could I kindly see the end of this document?

11             Yes, could I see the very end of the document?

12        Q.   And it may assist, the -- I believe the actual document has an

13     attachment.  But there's three pages, I think, and then there's a

14     signature at the end.  I'm not --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we go through the document, starting on the

16     third page, to see whether we ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I see the beginning of this

18     document that I just have on the screen now?

19             Yes, here you have the results of the work of the control

20     inspection, or supervision.  This is what is clearly stated here.

21             I apologise.  Could I see if this document was listed?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would please look at the documents as

23     requested but listed -- it's unclear to me.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters would kindly ask the witness

25     to repeat his request.  But this is what was stated.

Page 23359

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please repeat what you said last.

 2     You said:

 3             "I apologise.  Could I see if this document was ..."

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to see the entire

 5     document, because I can only see the first page here.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest the following, Mr. Carrier.  Let's have a

 7     break.  Let's make hard copies of the documents you want to show to the

 8     witness.  Is that --

 9             MR. CARRIER:  Actually he asked to see it.  I did the courtesy of

10     showing it to him, but it was just a question about, if that's what's in

11     the document, then how does he explain Dr. Brkic's role.  So, that's the

12     only information I was looking for.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  But apparently the witness would prefer to

14     answer the questions once he has seen the document in its entirety, and

15     that's -- if it's a three-page document, then I think it should not

16     create a major problem.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

19             MR. MISETIC:  -- on behalf of my client, and I'm certain the

20     others as well, they haven't been able to follow the documents because

21     they're being summarised quickly.  And then now they would also like to

22     see the documents so ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's then take our time and perhaps make one

24     or two copies as well for the accused of the original so that we know

25     what we are talking about.  I would rather not hear any evidence where

Page 23360

 1     the witness is hesitant to say anything unless he has seen this

 2     three-page document in its entirety.

 3             If could you take care of that, Mr. Carrier.  Then you know of

 4     our time constraints.  Could you tell us how much time you would still

 5     need after the break?

 6             MR. CARRIER:  As you can tell, I'm trying to go quickly.  But I

 7     should be done in 20 minutes, 25 minutes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  20, 25 minutes.

 9             Could I get an estimate on time needed for re-examination,

10     Mr. Kay.

11             MR. KAY:  There's none at the moment, other than a very short

12     matter within five minutes.  It's not substantial.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:  No questions, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing arises until this moment.

16             We will have a break.

17             Mr. Carrier, you are invited to provide hard copies.  And we will

18     resume at five minutes to 1.00, sharp.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

22             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And in the interests of

23     time, I would like to, at the end of this session, bar table document

24     65 ter 7452, which is a 12th of August, 1995, report from Brkic to

25     Cimiran.  It's similar to all the other ones, but if my friends have the

Page 23361

 1     chance to look at it, perhaps we can address it at the end.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I just ask you, I did write down for

 3     myself that P2652, which is the -- I think, Brkic says that it corrects

 4     the report on what was done on the 11th.  Is the original report

 5     available as well, apart from the correction being there, whether that

 6     gives any additional information?

 7             MR. CARRIER:  I'm not aware of one, but ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But you noticed that it says it is the correction on

 9     the report and -- of the 11th and a report on what was done on the 12th.

10     That's in the title at the top.

11             MR. CARRIER:  I believe we can find them.  It may just be in

12     relation to body lists.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It could be.  But it could describe what happened.

14     Whereas here we may find, for example, further details on re-numbering

15     the -- the bodies identified.

16             If could you find that, it might assist.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you very much.

19        Q.   Mr. Sruk, we left off -- you had a chance to look at the

20     document; right?

21             Now my question is very simply, given this report to Dr. Brkic

22     from Dr. Gotovac, do you actually know whether or not Dr. Brkic was also

23     involved in supervisory reconnaissance of a human sanitation operation

24     conducted after Storm by members of civilian protection?

25        A.   It does not follow from this document.  However, I know that

Page 23362

 1     Dr. Gotovac visited various places and oversaw the process, and at the

 2     end of that overseeing procedure, he drafted a report.  He was on his own

 3     at the time.  And I'm referring to the professional overseeing of the

 4     work of the members of the ministry.  And this was standard procedure.

 5             And I'm glad that you showed me the document.  This confirms that

 6     the agreement on the competence of the civilian protection, complete with

 7     all standards of work, was honoured, because Dr. Gotovac states that

 8     there was an agreement for the civilian protection --

 9        Q.   Mr. Sruk, I'm going to cut you off.  Mr. Sruk, I apologise.  I'm

10     under time limitations and my question was very simple.  It was about

11     whether or not you actually know whether or not Dr. Brkic, who's being

12     reported to by Dr. Gotovac in this report, was also involved in that

13     supervisory reconnaissance.

14        A.   The -- of the work that was carried out in Knin, he was not.  For

15     the rest, I don't know.

16        Q.   And on what exactly do you base that?

17        A.   I was in Knin at the time when the supervision took place.  I

18     spoke to Dr. Gotovac who phoned me.  So I know, I am aware of the time

19     when he was involved in this work.

20        Q.   That's just Dr. Gotovac, though, right?  You're talking about

21     you're aware of when Dr. Gotovac was involved.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   All right.

24        A.   Yes.  What follows from the document, what he did.  This

25     particular supervision exercise.  It was earlier.  The report is of the

Page 23363

 1     28th, and Dr. Gotovac was in Knin on his own, and he told me about the

 2     problems that existed in Knin and around Knin and so on.

 3             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have D598 on the

 4     screen, please.

 5        Q.   Mr. Sruk, what's coming up on the screen is General Cervenko's

 6     order of the 5th of August, 1995, calling for sanitation by mixed

 7     sanitation detachments of the territory where Storm was conducted.

 8             Now, you have had a chance to look at this document already.  But

 9     my question is, Mr. Sruk, can you point specifically - and before do you

10     that, I'm going suggest that you won't find them - to the words "area of

11     combat activities," or "front line," or "battlefield," where those are

12     used in this order to indicate that the activities of the mixed

13     sanitation detachments that are being set up under this order are limited

14     to operating in those types of areas?

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, can we get a cite, and it may very

16     well be true, but where the witness said that the mixed sanitation

17     detachments only operated on the battlefield.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

19             MR. CARRIER:  Area of combat activities I think you can find in

20     paragraph 5, line 29, page 3 of the English.  It says "during combat

21     activities."  Paragraph 6, line 6, page 4 in the English.

22             MR. MISETIC:  I'm aware of that, but that's different than

23     what -- the way the question is posed.  The Prosecutor is suggesting that

24     the witness said that mixed combat groups were only operating at -- in

25     the combat, and that's different than what is said in paragraph 5.

Page 23364

 1             MR. CARRIER:  I was actually not finished.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But Mr. Carrier is now aware that Mr. Misetic thinks

 3     that the -- focussing on those portions of the testimony in which

 4     reference is made to limited areas that that's important to include that

 5     in the question.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  And for the record, the question was finished

 7     and he was asked to point in this to order to --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let's proceed.

 9             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry.  I meant that I wasn't finished citing the

10     other instances.  But if you are not worried about that, I'll just ask

11     him.

12        Q.   Mr. Sruk, is it not your position that the mixed sanitation

13     detachments operated in -- on the battlefield, or areas of combat

14     activities, or the front line, and that's where they were supposed to be

15     operating?

16        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I have never stated that, nor could I have.

17     Pursuant to this order and General Gotovina's order which had to do with

18     his AOR of the Military Districts, the mixed detachments were set up to

19     be used everywhere except for the combat zones, because the sanitation in

20     the combat areas was carried out by the Croatian Army.  And that's quite

21     clear.  The mixed detachments were set up in addition to the military

22     units, and they were civilian, in order to cope with the vast territory.

23     And I -- I wouldn't dream of stating what you've just -- the word that

24     you have just put into my mouth.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So they operated everywhere; that's fine.

Page 23365

 1        A.   No, no.  I repeat, no, they did not.  It was the Croatian Army

 2     that did the job in the battlefield, according to the orders.  The mixed

 3     detachments established pursuant to this order of the 5th of August by

 4     the chief of the Main Staff were active throughout the territory, save

 5     for the combat zones.  And that's quite clear.  There is a clear

 6     distinction.  Civilians have no place being at the front line.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Sruk, when you gave your statement, you reviewed a number of

 9     documents.  And then you confirmed that the mixed sanitation teams

10     sanitised the terrain in the Split Military District during August 1995.

11     And you said that the chain of command and reporting was fully respected

12     in accordance with General Cervenko's order - the one we're looking at

13     here - and also General Gotovina's order dated the 11th of August, 1995,

14     which is P4 -- sorry, P496.

15             MR. CARRIER:  And if we could actually just have P496 on the

16     screen quickly.  And if you could turn to page 2 in the English and

17     page 2 in the B/C/S.

18        Q.   Mr. Sruk, you were shown this document during the

19     cross-examination by Mr. Misetic, and you went through it and you

20     identified who was responsible -- responsible for providing different

21     aspects of these mixed sanitation groups.

22             In terms of 4.1, the commander, is it fair to say that the

23     commander of these groups is an HV member?

24        A.   According to what is stated here, yes.  And he was, indeed.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And, Mr. Sruk, with respect to the report sent by

Page 23366

 1     Dr. Brkic, which you reviewed, in your statement you said that Dr. Brkic

 2     did everything aforesaid in contrast to the order of the Chief of the

 3     Main Staff, General Cervenko, of August 5, 1995, in which the tasks for

 4     carrying out sanitation and coordination of HV with the police

 5     administration civil protection and health crisis staff of the counties

 6     in the liberated areas were clearly stated.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could go back to

 8     Exhibit D598 which, just for reference --

 9        Q.   Mr. Sruk, this is General Cervenko's order again.

10             MR. CARRIER:  And if we could turn to page 4 in the English and

11     page 2 in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Looking at item number 7, Mr. Sruk, if you have a chance to look

13     that over, is it fair to say that item number 7 of General Cervenko's

14     order very generally sets out some of the individuals and bodies that are

15     responsible for coordination and supervision of the participants in the

16     sanitation campaign conducted in August 1995?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer the question.  If you have

18     not understood it, we will invite Mr. Carrier to repeat it.

19             Mr. Carrier characterised what he thinks is found in paragraph 7,

20     and he is seeking whether you agree or disagree with that.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, I didn't understand

22     just now what it was about.

23             This is the normal channel of communication and reporting, where

24     the chief of the Main Staff charges the operational logistics, that's to

25     say, the chiefs of the medical corps, Dr. Marijan Zlatar -- that's to

Page 23367

 1     say, the chief of the medical corps, Dr. Marijan Zlatar, and the chief of

 2     the veterinarian profession, Perajica, to report to him on the sanitation

 3     carried out throughout the territory affected by Operation Storm.  That's

 4     quite clear and quite proper.  And only goes to show that all the others

 5     were outside of this order which came into force on the 5th of August.

 6             Do I misunderstand you?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you misunderstood the question.  What

 8     Mr. Carrier would like to know is whether you agree or do not agree with,

 9     as he put it to you, that paragraph 7 of General Cervenko's order very

10     generally sets out some of the individuals and bodies that are

11     responsible for coordination and supervision of the participants in the

12     sanitation campaign conducted in August 1995.

13             Is that a fair statement, that that's to be found in paragraph 7?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Honourable Judge, this is an order

15     by the then-chief of the Main Staff.  This is a usual procedure of

16     issuing commands, where he charges the -- his immediate subordinates with

17     coordinating and ensuring the implementation of the order.  I cannot

18     comment on the order of the chief of the Main Staff, but I can only tell

19     you that it is fully within the spirit of the orders issued at the time,

20     where who is responsible for what is quite clearly defined.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, please proceed.

22             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

23        Q.   And, Mr. Sruk, just to direct your attention more specifically to

24     the last paragraph under item number 7, which states that:

25             "All unclear issues shall be resolved in coordination with the

Page 23368

 1     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia Health Administration."

 2             Now, Mr. Sruk, given that Dr. Brkic was the head or the chief of

 3     the Health Administration, I'm going to suggest to you that you he was

 4     responsible under this order to coordinate the resolution of all unclear

 5     issues, in respect of the sanitation campaign, which means that any of

 6     his orders, input, direction, et cetera, related to accomplishing that in

 7     a sanitation campaign would have to be given due weight and attention,

 8     which -- perhaps you could comment on.

 9             Is that not fair?  Is your characterisation of Dr. Brkic's

10     role inconsistent with that, or you just don't know what he was doing?

11        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I disagree with your assertion.  It is quite

12     clear -- I'm trying to account for the system that was in place at the

13     time.

14             All the things that were unclear and that stemmed from

15     General Cervenko's order were to be clarified with the competent

16     authorities, and, at the time, it was the ministry.  This was standard

17     procedure.  But it only had to do with those elements that were unclear.

18             On the 5th of August, there were no such things that were unclear

19     yet.  When they emerged, they were being dealt with.

20        Q.   Mr. Sruk, let me ask you, what specifically are you basing your

21     testimony on, that -- that -- on the 5th there was nothing really that

22     was unclear?  What information were you getting, who was reporting to

23     you, how would you actually know that?  And how would you know whether or

24     not the Health Administration would be involved in any of that?

25        A.   Quite simply on the 5th of August, none of the members of the

Page 23369

 1     medical corps were present in Knin.  The only person who arrived was my

 2     chief of -- within the Military District who flew in by helicopter and

 3     then went away again.  Nobody came after him, until the early morning

 4     hours, when I, together with my teams -- well, it wasn't the -- at the

 5     crack of dawn; it was at 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning - that I arrived.

 6     And it is quite certain that no one was aware of any problems on the 5th.

 7             What --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- is set out here is the normal

10     course that the issuing of an order would entail.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  May I understand your answer to be that you were not

12     aware of any unclear issues on that date?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please -- could you please move on, Mr. Carrier.

15             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Mr. Sruk, on the basis of your review of Dr. Brkic's reports

17     during your statement, you concluded that Dr. Brkic was not acquainted

18     with the work of the mixed teams for sanitation on the liberated areas,

19     said he wasn't familiar with the fact that these teams reported on their

20     work to the OPL at the Main Staff of the Croatian Army in Zagreb on a

21     daily basis.

22             Now, Mr. Sruk, other than the reports that you looked at from

23     Dr. Brkic, that you looked at for the first time in September 2009, what

24     is your factual basis for saying that Dr. Brkic was unacquainted with the

25     work of the sanitation teams or where it was that they reported to?  Can

Page 23370

 1     you explain that?

 2        A.   Having received General Gotovina's order, and once the mixed

 3     teams were set up -- or, rather, let me correct myself, not teams but

 4     detachments.  The commander of the detachments reported along his chain

 5     of command up to the chief of the medical profession of the

 6     Split Military District.  They, in turn, reported to the operations and

 7     planning of the logistics within the Main Staff in Zagreb, and it was the

 8     individuals listed in item 7 who received the information.  And that was

 9     the proper implementation of the order issued by the chief of the

10     Main Staff, by the commander of the Split Military District, and the

11     coordinator for sanitation.

12             This was the only acceptable situation in military terms.  We

13     were all informed of it and all of us were privy to the elements that

14     fell within our jurisdiction.  Unfortunately, we were not aware of some

15     other information.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, I'm looking at the clock.  Are you

17     about to finish?

18             MR. CARRIER:  This is the last part.  This is the last part about

19     this particular issue.  I just have a couple more questions on that so --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you also know that we have to finish at

21     1.30.  That's at least what we intend to do.  So could you please put

22     very focussed questions and not take more than three or four minutes.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Sruk, do you specifically know what information was being

Page 23371

 1     sent to Dr. Brkic about what was happening with regard to the sanitation

 2     process in Knin in August 1995?  Specifically.

 3        A.   I only know this from Mr. Gotovac, and anything else, when it

 4     comes to the mixed detachments, he did not receive any reports from them.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And very quickly, if we could look at item number 8 of

 6     General Cervenko' order, which is on the last -- or, sorry page 5 in

 7     English, which discusses the actual daily reporting required.

 8             And very specifically, Mr. Sruk, it indicates here that the

 9     reports are to be sent to the OPL, but moreover, that the OPL sector of

10     the Croatian Army Main Staff is also supposed to forward reports of

11     appropriate scope to the Ministry of Health -- or sorry, the Ministry of

12     Defence Health Administration via regular channels.

13             Can you explain that, because that seems to suggest that those

14     reports -- or portions of the reports or appropriate scope are going to

15     the Health Administration.  Do you know anything specifically about what

16     was contained in those reports to the Health Administration, of which

17     Dr. Brkic was the chief?

18        A.   Just as I said before, the chain of events was such that us, as

19     military, upon the orders of General Cervenko, were reporting to the OPLs

20     of the Main Staff.  Furthermore, General Gotovina did not have the

21     authority to order OPL whom to forward these reports to.  This was done

22     by the Main Staff, and this is the usual way of reporting and the correct

23     way of reporting.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, Mr. Carrier put you to the paragraph 8 of

25     this order by Mr. Cervenko, in which he instructs the OPL to forward

Page 23372

 1     reports of appropriate scope to the MORH Health Administration via

 2     regular channels.

 3             Have you ever seen such a report which was sent to the Health

 4     Administration of the Ministry of Defence?  Have you ever seen such a

 5     report?  A very factual question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not have seen them from my

 7     position.  I never saw them.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You never saw them.

 9             Do you have any specific knowledge of the content of those

10     reports by other means than having looked at them?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The part of the report that started

12     from the coordination and went to the chief of the medical corps of the

13     garrison, this is what I saw, of course.  But furthermore, from there on,

14     I could not have seen them, so I saw what came up to my level of -- in

15     the chain of command.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That answers your question, I take it.

17             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, thank you.  No more questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No more questions.

19             Mr. Kay.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Kay:

21             MR. KAY:  Very quickly.

22        Q.   The document we're looking at, Exhibit D598, in this document,

23     General Cervenko, Chief of the Main Staff, set out the procedure for

24     sanitation -- sanitisation after Operation Oluja, and you've been

25     directed to the contents of that, and, in particular, paragraph 7, where

Page 23373

 1     head of Health Services in the operations, logistics sector of the

 2     Main Staff were to coordinate, supervise, provide expert advice, and

 3     unclear issues to be resolved in coordination with the Ministry of

 4     Defence Health Administration.

 5             Considering, then, General Cervenko's order, as you have, was

 6     there any need for Dr. Brkic to have an order signed by General Cermak to

 7     carry out any duties?

 8        A.   I apologise, I did not grasp your question, the last part of your

 9     question.

10        Q.   General Cervenko set out here in his order of the 5th of

11     August the procedure for sanitisation after Operation Oluja.  He gave a

12     coordination role to Brigadier Zlatar and Lieutenant Perajica and said

13     unclear issues should be resolved in coordination with the Ministry of

14     Defence Health Administration.  Was there any need, considering General

15     Cervenko's order, for Dr. Brkic to have an order from General Cermak?

16        A.   No.  No.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, any further questions.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, I just had one quick question, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

23        Q.   Dr. Sruk, you were asked a question about these mixed sanitation

24     unit and General Gotovina's order of the 11th of August and the fact that

25     in point 1, the person identified would be an HV commander.  In your

Page 23374

 1     experience as someone who worked in the logistics base, could

 2     General Gotovina subordinate HV personnel and logistics to the civilian

 3     government?  In other words, could you have formally been subordinated to

 4     a civilian person to work, or would you always have to have someone in

 5     the HV supervising you?

 6        A.   When any type of order was in question, it had to be issued by a

 7     soldier to a soldier and we carried out tasks as soldiers.  I never

 8     experienced that my commander subordinated me to any civilian type of

 9     institution when there were other ways to do it.

10             I have no such information, no.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Dr. Sruk.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sruk, one question.

14             Today, during your testimony when talking about what you saw in

15     the hole upon arrival at the Knin cemetery you said:

16             "And I have to say, when I recall these pictures today, I believe

17     that they did it with the best of intentions."

18             Now, what specifically in the picture made you believe that there

19     were good intentions behind what you saw?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't customary to bury anybody

21     in a pit, in a hole, but, rather, for dead bodies to be interred, a

22     single individual body in one grave.

23             Persons who started carrying out this sanitation in this

24     unprofessional manner, nonetheless, they did not throw in these bodies

25     but they laid them down in order, possibly believing that they did it

Page 23375

 1     properly.  So they were not destroying anything.  They did, in a way,

 2     inter them, so that I believe they are intentions were good.  And it

 3     certainly was better even done this way, than if they had been left in

 4     the streets or wherever else.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 6             Mr. Carrier.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. President, it was just the one outstanding

 8     issue of the document I wanted to put in.  But if we can't deal with it

 9     today, I understand, given time constraints.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If can you deal with that in one or two

11     questions, then please do so.  Then even if we take three minutes more,

12     then we'll have to do it.

13             MR. CARRIER:  It was just a matter of hoping to just put it in.

14     I gave the number to my friends to look at so they'd have --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, you mean the tendering from the bar table.

16             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, just that one document.  It's 65 ter 7452,

17     which is basically the same as D30, D1060, D612 although it's to a

18     different addressee, which is the issue, so it is slightly different.  So

19     that is the only change really.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, any objections.

21             MR. KAY:  Yes.  I'm told it is not a duplicate.  It is another in

22     the chain.  No objections, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  No objections from the other Defence

24     counsel.

25             Then, Mr. Registrar.

Page 23376

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2653.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             If there's no other matter --

 4             Mr. Carrier, were you able to find the document to which P2652 is

 5     a correction?

 6             MR. CARRIER:  We haven't yet but I will try to update Your Honour

 7     tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, it would have been preferred to

 9     have it here when the witness is still there, but if you didn't find it,

10     then we will have to accept that for the time being.

11             Mr. Sruk, this concludes your evidence in this court.  I would

12     like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for

13     having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and

14     by the Bench, and I hope that you will have a safe return home again.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

17     Wednesday, the 28th of October, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom III.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.34 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

20                           October, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.