Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25089

 1                           Tuesday, 24 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Good afternoon to you, Mr. Pejkovic, as well.  I would like to

13     remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

14     at the beginning of your testimony.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I followed your

16     instructions and I did not contact anyone.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Mr. Mikulicic, are you ready to proceed?

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

21                           WITNESS:  LOVRE PEJKOVIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Mr. Mikulicic: [Continued]

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Registry

25     for P420 [as interpreted].

Page 25090

 1        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, yesterday we stopped in this document, D420; it's

 2     the second report from the year 2000.  And we stopped at the

 3     paragraph which says that through your work in the ground you established

 4     that there were 20.000 unregistered returnees between 1995 and 2000?

 5             Do you remember that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now I would like to ask you to move to another topic connected to

 8     this document, and therefore I would ask the Registry to open page

 9     3D001268 in the Croatian version, and page 3D060131 in the English

10     version.

11             This chapter, Mr. Pejkovic, talks about the project of return

12     from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Bosnia and Herzegovina

13     through the stability pact.  Could you please tell us a few introductory

14     sentences about the stability pact.  What is meant by that?

15        A.   When we talk about the stability pact, we have to know that one

16     of the more important tasks before this stability pact was to enable the

17     return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes.  And the

18     government, as a participant in all this process, is connected to that,

19     implemented through the stability pact and in co-operation with the

20     relevant countries - in this case these were Bosnia and Herzegovina and

21     Serbia and Montenegro - all the procedures in order to enable the fastest

22     possible and easiest possible return of everyone to their homes.

23        Q.   What were the factors connected with the stability pact?  You

24     mentioned the countries, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the Federal Republic

25     of Yugoslavia, as well as Croatia.  And then, of international

Page 25091

 1     institutions, who was present there as well?

 2        A.   Those who were responsible for the activities were UNHCR and OSS.

 3        Q.   It says here that a budget of 55 and a half million US dollars

 4     was proposed for the pact, and that the target group of returnees

 5     numbered 16.500 persons.  They would be the user of that.  And these were

 6     the persons who had submitted applications for return, whether to the

 7     office that you were employed at, through the UNHCR.  And if we consider

 8     the ethnic composition of the returnees, what was it?

 9        A.   Primarily, this was the return of Croats, also the return of

10     Serbs, and the return of the Muslim, that is to say, the Bosniaks.  All

11     the three groups were returning.  The Croats were returning to Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina and so were the Muslim Bosniaks, whereas, the Serbs were

13     returning to Croatia.

14        Q.   And please tell us what were the results of this project of

15     return by implementation of the stability pact?

16        A.   The programme for the return and the return itself, through the

17     stability pact was just a part of the overall return, and when we're

18     talking about return, it's difficult to distinguish what was return

19     through the stability pact.  We did have target groups.  However, people

20     returned in other ways as well, not only people that we wanted to return

21     and that we considered as target groups as the stability pact but other

22     people as well.  So that when this report was drafted, a significant

23     number of displaced persons and refugees had already returned to their

24     home, both in Croatia and in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] now I would like to show page

Page 25092

 1     3D001290 in the Croatian version, that is to say, page 3D060605 in the

 2     English version.

 3        Q.   Pages we will see on the screen are the summary, talking about

 4     the returns to Republic of Croatia in a period of five years since the

 5     previous report from 1995 until this report from the year 2000.

 6             Do I draw proper conclusions, Mr. Pejkovic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And it says here in the seconds paragraph that since the fall of

 9     1995 until the 1st of May, 2000, the total number of those who returned

10     to the Republic of Croatia was 244.350 displaced persons.

11             Where does this data come from, Mr. Pejkovic?

12        A.   This is the data on the number of persons who had the status of

13     returnees.  They were all registered at the government office, and they

14     received their returnee card.  We must know that since 1997 until the

15     moment of this report in the year 2000 a system of monitoring was

16     completely established so that it was not possible to have errors in the

17     data, because each person had his or her identity card, and their

18     movements were monitored as well as their status.  So both the status and

19     the place where they were within the Republic of Croatia or the fact that

20     they returned there.

21        Q.   This figure of 244.350 returnees is then broken down into three

22     items.  So I would ask you to look at the data on the screen and briefly

23     comment on them and tell us also where do the data come from.

24        A.   The figures expressed here were the result of the sums that were

25     made relating to the number of returnees.

Page 25093

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it true that I see on my screen not the same text

 2     in B/C/S and English?

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, if it's your screen, as mine it is,

 4     then you don't see the English text on the left side of the screen.  And

 5     the proper page of the English text is, as I said, 3D060605.

 6             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, Mr. President.  I don't think I have that

 7     page in that -- in this document.  I have been looking for it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the page in the ...

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  That's the right page on the screen, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There we are now.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  If I can assist my learned colleague, I could

13     give you my copy, if you wish; although it's the same as -- as shown on

14     the screen.

15             MR. CARRIER:  This is -- sorry.  This is D420.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  This is D420, right.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We have it on our screen now.

19             The English translation, which is uploaded, consists of 53 pages.

20     Which number in these 53 is this?

21             MR. CARRIER:  Just before Mr. Mikulicic answers ...

22     Mr. President, I -- the document that I have that was printed off within

23     the last two weeks doesn't actually have that range.  It has a 3D06 --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. CARRIER:  I'm just trying to figure out when it was uploaded

Page 25094

 1     into the system, when that happened.  I know something changed yesterday,

 2     but I didn't realize any of the text changed.  I thought that was the end

 3     of it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Can we move a bit up the English text so that we can

 5     see the number at the bottom of the page, a bit to the right.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, that was uploaded yesterday, and we

 7     informed the parties on the record.  If you open up e-court, that's a --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's now the second page which is uploaded.  The

 9     second out of 18, which is now uploaded.

10             MR. MIKULICIC: [Microphone not activated]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You have found it?

14             MR. CARRIER:  I just -- I need one second, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The old 53-page English original appears under

16     number 3D060100; whereas, this 18-page is now 3D060604.  And we are

17     looking at 0605.  And then the B/C/S original is uploaded under 3D001242

18     and is 64 pages.

19             Just for our information, Mr. Mikulicic, the two English uploaded

20     documents, 53 pages for the 0100 -- no, I'm making a mistake.  No.  It's

21     right.  53 pages for the 0100 and 18 pages for the 0604, are they both

22     covered by the original 3D001242?

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, they are.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we have translations split up in two parts,

25     Mr. Carrier.

Page 25095

 1             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, I don't think I understood that last part.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you look in e-court, source and

 3     attachments, we find three originals which is understandable because, at

 4     the time, they were already translated.

 5             I'm looking at the document details at this moment.

 6             MR. CARRIER:  I'm sad and yet happy to report it is the system

 7     here.  I don't have three; I only two sets of translations.  But on the

 8     same --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all, as uploaded in e-court, we have

10     three originals.  And that is caused by the fact that already at the time

11     translations were prepared and distributed as the witness testified

12     yesterday.  That's at least how I understand it.  Then we have a B/C/S

13     original uploaded under 3D001242, a 64-page document.  Last part of the

14     document, mainly tables.  Then we have two sets in English, 3D060100, and

15     3D060604.  That's, at least, always the first page of the English.  And

16     we're now looking at the second page of this sequence found under

17     3D060604.

18             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, I understand that now.  If I could just make

19     once comment, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. CARRIER:  This was something that was just put on the record;

22     it's been updated yesterday by Mr. Kuzmanovic.  There was no indication

23     that was going to be used during the cross-examination [sic], which,

24     Prosecution feels, that it would have been more proper to give us notice

25     that, in fact, that part was going to be used.  It didn't form, actually,

Page 25096

 1     the document as identified on the exhibit list originally because now it

 2     has been added to in terms of the translation.  So just to put that on

 3     the record:  I think it would have been proper to actually tell us it was

 4     going use, not just in passing that it has been updated.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Although we informed the

 8     learned colleagues from the Prosecution office that we are going to use

 9     the document D420, which is obviously the part of this document.

10             But any way ...

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pejkovic, before the procedural issues that

12     arose, I asked you to comment, for the benefit of the Bench and the

13     parties, the items 1, 2, and 3, which are a breakdown of the total number

14     of 244.350 returnees in the period of five years, those who returned to

15     the Republic of Croatia.

16             So could you please be so kind to briefly comment on these

17     figures?

18        A.   When we drafted the reports, we always tried to break down the

19     data into logical wholes.  So the first group is the number of returnees

20     who were primarily Croats and who returned to the areas liberated by the

21     military and police operations Flash and Storm.

22             The second category included the return to or from the

23     Croatian Danube region on the basis of the Erdut Agreement on the

24     peaceful reintegration of the Croatian Danube region.

25             And the third category related to the return into the

Page 25097

 1     Republic of Croatia from Yugoslavia; that is to say, Serbia and

 2     Montenegro, and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3             When we talk about the return of displaced persons to the areas

 4     which were liberated during the operations Flash and Storm until the

 5     1st of May, 2000, the number was 122.517 returnees --

 6        Q.   Excuse me, if I understood properly, these returnees were

 7     primarily Croats; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct.  And can I please have the transcript in

 9     front of me so that can I see the speed of my own speech.

10             The second figure was a two-way return from the Croatian Danube

11     region and into the Croatian Danube region where it is stated that, as

12     part of this process, 31.717 returnees returned.  They were mostly or

13     almost only Serbs who went to other parts of Croatia and who had been

14     accommodated in the Croatian Danube region.  And, at the same time,

15     48.995 returnees returned to the Croatian Danube region; they were mostly

16     Croats and some representatives of other ethnic groups.

17             And then we also showed here the return to Croatia from

18     Serbia and Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina and the figure was

19     41.121 returnee.  And we broke down this figure into two; namely, 23.147

20     persons returned in an organised manner with the support of our office

21     and UNHCR; whereas the remaining number returned spontaneously, which

22     means that they had been issued Croatian documents and returned to

23     Croatia on their own.  And, upon return to Croatia, they contacted our

24     office and were given the returnee status.

25        Q.   And the third category of returnees, when you talk about the

Page 25098

 1     ethnic composition, who were the members of this group?

 2        A.   These were almost 100 per cent the returning Serbs.

 3        Q.   In the next paragraph, Mr. Pejkovic, it says that from a total of

 4     about 300.000 Croatian Serbs who left their homes after 1991, their homes

 5     in the Republic of Croatia, that is, a total of 72.838 persons returned

 6     from the Croatian Danube region, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that, according to the current number of

 8     requests for return filed to the office for refugees, there was still

 9     14.020 persons waiting to return.

10             Where does this data come from, Mr. Pejkovic?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, perhaps you could ask the witness --

12     this case is primarily about the Krajina, that -- Sector South.  Can we

13     see what - when we're talking about returnees - what is the percentage

14     which returned to the Krajina, because I get the feeling that we always

15     get the whole of the -- of the Croatian return programme without any

16     breakdown in Krajina and other regions.

17             Mr. Pejkovic, could you help us out?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19             When speaking of the returning Serbs, we must say that

20     95 per cent of them took place in the formally occupied territory, in the

21     territory of the so-called Krajina as you said yourself.  There were very

22     few of them who returned to the areas which were free throughout that

23     period.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that, but focussing -- because I --

25     it -- it seems that we're talking not just about the Krajina region,

Page 25099

 1     well, let's say, around Knin, former Sector South, but we're talking

 2     about areas at quite a distance from that.

 3             Do you have a breakdown from specifically those returning to --

 4     to the Krajina, the ...

 5             Perhaps I should say Sector South, because that's what we are --

 6     the area, say, roughly, around Knin.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these documents

 8     contain tables listing municipalities in which returnees were.  But we

 9     never drafted such reports in which we would try to calculate the figures

10     of returnees solely to the area of north, south, or west.

11             In item 2, though, we had data on Sector South, at least

12     partially, because that is, for the most part, the Danube region.

13             MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I could

14     assist with the next document that I want to show to the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll hear --

16             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the Registrar

17     for D429.

18        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, you will see a document which has already been

19     admitted.  It is the statistics of the returnees and returnee

20     applications, which was put together in late 2006 by the office; that is

21     to say, the administration for IDPs and refugees.

22             I don't think you'll be able to get your bearings quickly on this

23     page, but I wanted to draw your attention to the following, given

24     His Honour's question, to the left column, which states the counties to

25     which those people returned.  From the county names, perhaps you can

Page 25100

 1     conclude which of those would fall within this -- the former

 2     Sector South.  That is to say, Knin, Zadar, Sibenik, Split, as well as

 3     Lika.

 4             Please focus on the entry under the number 09 which is the

 5     Licko-Sinjska county.  Next, the number 13 which is the Zadar county.

 6     Then 15, the Sibenik-Knin county.  And 17, the Split-Dalmatia county.

 7             From the data put together by the office, can you conclude

 8     whether these figures would relate to the area of the Former Republic of

 9     Krajina or Sector South which is important for this case?

10             Perhaps can you offer a comment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

12             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. President, other than it being fully leading to

13     direct someone to just ask them to add up numbers, I don't think it adds

14     much just to simply read from documents and have the person confirm

15     that's what it says there.

16             It's not -- it's leading; it's improper.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, it's not uncommon in this courtroom.  If

18     statistics were prepared and then to ask for an explanation to that, of

19     course, we wouldn't expect the witness to reproduce the numbers.  That,

20     of course, would be practically impossible.  But to assist us in

21     understanding, I think, is not inappropriate.

22             Therefore, the witness may answer the question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Mikulicic, Your Honour, I

24     authored this table.  The data shown here refers to a certain date.  We

25     collated it so that we would be able to follow the rate of return at the

Page 25101

 1     level of each and every county for statistic purposes and to inform the

 2     public.

 3             There is another table containing sub-statistics, in which we can

 4     see each and every municipality per county.  But in that case, that

 5     included actually hundreds of tables.  And, as such, it would have been

 6     extraordinary to them published.  Those who were interested in monitoring

 7     the returnee process could peruse them, nevertheless.  Overall return was

 8     followed at the level of counties, municipalities, or locations, or

 9     settlements.  Extracting individual pieces of information, one can

10     clearly ascertain the number of returnees to certain areas within

11     Sector South, Sector North, or Sector West.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pejkovic, if we look at the statistics, we

14     see in the upper part of the table the column "Minority Return," which is

15     further split into three columns from the FRY, from the B and H, and from

16     the Croatian Danubian region.  These were the categories you referred to

17     only a minute ago when you discussed the 2000 report.  Correct?

18        A.   Yes.  That is what we could see under categories 1, 2, and 3.  In

19     this table, it is simply stated by using different terminology.  But it

20     all boils down to the same thing.  We have returnees, that is to say,

21     former IDPs in the first column, which refer to mostly Croats.  Next we

22     have minority returns from three different directions.  And, for

23     practical purposes, these were mostly Serbs.  The directions were the

24     FRY, Bosnia-Herzegovina, or the Croatian Danubian region.

25             The next column shows the total of the three sub-columns.

Page 25102

 1             The next column is the total number of returnees.

 2             What follows is the number of cases or applications which are

 3     still pending.

 4        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, let us try and clarify one thing, and I would

 5     kindly ask for your assistance in that.

 6             This Tribunal discusses the area of the former so-called Krajina.

 7     Statistically and legally and formally speaking, does such a category

 8     exist within the Croatian system?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   If you were asked how to define or show data of return to that

11     area alone, how would you be able to do that?

12        A.   We could clearly identify the settlements or municipalities which

13     had been occupied.  We followed the rate of return there as well.  We

14     would have to add up all of them to arrive at a final figure of returnees

15     to that specific area.

16        Q.   If we are talking about the overall minority return, then it

17     brings us to the total figure of 123.469 persons on -- or as of the

18     2nd of December, 2006.

19             According to the methodology you used, can you tell us what the

20     ethnicity was of the people included in this figure of minority number of

21     returnees?

22        A.   When we are discussing the minorities, it is almost 100 per cent

23     Serbs.  Okay, well, there may be a few percentages less than that,

24     because there were people in mixed marriages, but for practical purposes,

25     that this was almost solely the return of Croatian citizens of

Page 25103

 1     Serb ethnicity.

 2        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, you worked in the IDPs and refugees office for a

 3     number of years; you cooperated with various international organisations,

 4     NGOs, governmental organisations, the Croatian government, et cetera.

 5     Has any pressure ever been exercised upon you, which would try to impose

 6     different solutions to your otherwise professional obligations?

 7        A.   I must say to this Court that there was never any pressure

 8     exercised, or, rather, the only pressure I felt was the need for us do

 9     our job as quickly and as well as possible, so as to enable as many

10     people to -- as many people as possible to return to their homes.

11        Q.   My last question, Mr. Pejkovic.  Since you headed the office,

12     perhaps you can tell us whether the office policy ever included any kind

13     of discrimination by ethnicity, religion, sex, or any other?

14        A.   The role of the office was to enable all those IDPs and refugees

15     who were put under our care to help them in the exercise of their

16     religious and ethnic feelings and practices.  We tried to do that for

17     each and every single person.  We never discriminated.  We did, however,

18     keep data pertaining to all the individual cases of people who provided

19     us with information to be able to see how many Croats, Serbs, Ruthenians,

20     Jews, Czechs, Slovaks, and all other ethnicities returned.  That is to

21     say, all the ethnicities who felt the results of the war, having been

22     expelled from their homes.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pejkovic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

25             Mr. Kehoe.

Page 25104

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, we have no questions.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no questions for the witness.

 3             Mr. Kay.

 4             MR. KAY:  No questions, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

 6             Mr. Carrier, this brings us to you.  And, of course, we heard

 7     from you yesterday; you explained what problems you were facing.  And you

 8     said that you would further consider whether you would be ready to

 9     crosses examine the witness or not after you had had time to look at

10     certain matters.

11             Could you inform the Chamber.

12             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. President, I'm still getting information that

13     D420 has additional parts that still haven't been translated.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Simple question: Is every part of D420 translated as

15     uploaded in e-court?

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, although the parts are

17     separated, as you can see in the e-court.  But we -- in the meantime, we

18     ask of the CLSS just to consolidate the translation in one part so that

19     will be more useable, not departed in three different partition.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently the information is not the same.

21             Mr. Carrier, what portions of D420 are missing at this moment, as

22     far as translation is concerned?

23             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, the entire document has been

25     translated and uploaded.  What is the specific issue about D420 that is

Page 25105

 1     causing the problem; and if we can answer that, we would be more than

 2     happy to help.  But we added the additional translation of the document,

 3     which was already an exhibit, was translated in full, and uploaded.

 4     There is -- of D420.  I keep mis-transposing [sic]; I'm sorry.  So the

 5     issue is:  What is the issue about D420 that causes an issue for the

 6     Prosecution?  And we -- if we can answer that, we will help.  Otherwise,

 7     we don't really know what the issue is, other than part of it wasn't

 8     translated.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I was first asking Mr. Carrier what the

10     information exactly was that not every portion of D420 was translated.

11             MR. CARRIER:  I was simply just passed a note saying that one of

12     the people on our team has indicated that it is still not complete, and

13     we need to just check it.  But the issue is raised; if Mr. Kuzmanovic

14     isn't aware.  We raised them yesterday as well that there are still

15     numbers from April 2000 document, and there's numbers from May 2005, and

16     we were given now an additional 18 pages yesterday which was - as I

17     stated already on the record - it was put in without identifying that

18     that was going to be referred.  There is more tables; there's numbers.

19     These things all need to be properly looked at in order to cross-examine

20     the witness.  Particularly now that he has been asked questions about it

21     during the -- in chief at the end on new portions.

22             But we're not confident that the actual translation that was

23     uploaded originally, the initial 49 pages, is actually a translation of

24     what the B/C/S is.  I think it was an English version that was found and

25     was put in as -- as the translation, to stand for the translation, but

Page 25106

 1     not a true translation of what the B/C/S document was.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But in order to further explore these

 3     problems, Mr. Carrier, you will have to guide us to say, Well, that's

 4     what we finds here; that's what we find there; this is not consistent; or

 5     this is not a translation.  Although it looks like -- I mean, passing

 6     messages that matters are incomplete, of course, do not immediately guide

 7     us to the solution.

 8             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would add that we've had 24 hours

10     since this issue was raised or more.  We've exchanged I don't know how

11     many e-mails with the OTP related to other witness lists and exhibit

12     lists and scheduling.  And not one e-mail was sent to us asking us to

13     either clarify this or give us some more information or it's not

14     complete.  We would have been more than happy to assist, but we didn't

15     get any information in the interim time-frame that there was a problem.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you were aware of the problems the OTP

17     expressed yesterday.

18             But, Mr. Carrier.

19             MR. CARRIER:  It was addressed partly in the filing, Your Honour.

20     But if you turn to page 32, for instance.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  32 from what, exactly?

22             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry.  For the initial English translation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The initial English translation.  Let me see whether

24     I -- we are talking about D420.

25             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, it's 3D--

Page 25107

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, then I'll get it on my screen.

 2             Okay.  Which consists of three originals, one in English, two

 3     in -- two in English, one in B/C/S.

 4             Which page in the B/C/S version you would like us to look at?

 5             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry.  It's 35 in the English.  I'm just going

 6     look up the B/C/S version.  I think it's 3D0 --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if you say it's not translated, then we

 8     start with what seems to be the most original, that is, the Croatian

 9     version first.  But if you would first like to look at the English, then

10     we will do that.

11             We have two documents in English.  Which one do you think

12     contains a part which does not appear in the original Croatian, or is it

13     the other way around?

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, while we're waiting ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well -- yes, Mr. Kuzmanovic.  Is there --

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I can wait, Your Honour.

17             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry.  Just looking at the first 100 series, and

18     that's, as I said, 3D060135, and if we put the --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  0135, yes.

20             MR. CARRIER:  And the corresponding Croatian page, I believe, is

21     3D001291, if we could just load those up. [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, I -- give me at least one or two

23     seconds to get it on my own screen so that I can deal with it.

24             You said it was in the first 100 series.  There was -- 35, 135?

25             MR. CARRIER:  Yes.

Page 25108

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's at page -- the top says second part.

 2     Yes, there we are.

 3             Okay.  Now what page in English would you like us to refer to

 4     where you say, Well, here you see that the translation is missing.

 5             MR. CARRIER:  3D061 -- or, sorry, 0137.

 6             And if you just -- you can start looking through the -- the

 7     numbers.  You can see the first number at A; in English it's 11.379.

 8     Then it's -- on the other -- in Croatian version it's 9597.  The next

 9     number down, a B English, 8, 185, B in the Croatian is 13550.  The entire

10     chart, the numbers aren't right.  This is it just one page.  And

11     there's -- the problem is, having just found this, we don't know how many

12     more there are.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Just check what you said.

14             You say the numbers are ...

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, maybe I could assist.

16             But it will be wise to ask the witness to explain this.  But what

17     I can see is, for the first issue, the both texts are original coming

18     from the Croatian government, because they produced the document both in

19     Croatian and English.  But the English document is referring to the

20     period up to 1st March, and the Croatian document is referring to the

21     period up to 1st May.

22             So the difference is obvious in the numbers in tables, which has

23     to be connected to the period for which the figures are referred.

24             So we could ask the witness maybe to explain this in a

25     statistical sense of problem.

Page 25109

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what I see is that we have a table.

 2             Mr. Carrier, you -- from what I now see, you were referring to

 3     the text above the table; is that right?

 4             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, Mr. President, I'm referring to --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you were referring to A and B, but I find

 6     A and B is elsewhere on this page as well in the tables.  But you were

 7     referring to the As and the Bs on top of the table.  And you said the

 8     numbers are different.

 9             Now, it seems to me, Mr. Mikulicic, that not only the numbers are

10     different but that the text is a bit different here and there as well.

11     Is that --

12             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, if I could just point out one thing.

13     Your Honour asked a question yesterday of Mr. Kuzmanovic which he didn't

14     seem to be able to answer, whether or not an April 2000 document could

15     contain statistics for May 2000.  The Prosecution's position is that it

16     couldn't or wouldn't make sense that a document that's dated in April has

17     May 2000 statistics in it.  And that last column in the chart indicates

18     the dates of -- from May 1st, 2000.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It's really a puzzle.

22             MR. MISETIC:  I think I have figured out.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think what happened in the text above the table is

24     that A and B were changed --

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I think we're look looking at the

Page 25110

 1     wrong page in the B/C/S and that there's been a wrong association of what

 2     the B/C/S is in compared to the English.

 3             So if we could turn to page 32 in the B/C/S at the bottom you

 4     will see that the English translation is accurate, and it is accurately

 5     reflected.  It's just that Mr. Carrier cited the wrong pages.  At least

 6     that's what it looks like to me.  The bottom of page 32, so it's

 7     3D001273, going on to 1274, appears to be a chart that matches the

 8     English.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, it seems that the numbers you just said

10     were improperly translated actually do appear at the top of the page --

11     at the bottom of the page Mr. Misetic asked us to look at.

12             And if we could move to the next page in the original, then we'll

13     see whether a similar table appears.

14             Could we look at this table.

15             It looks, Mr. Carrier, as if we now found the page where we see

16     the same text and the same numbers.

17             Have you found that?

18             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, I just need one moment.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, would you agree that where you drew our

20     attention to missing portions of a translation, that if would you take

21     these two parts together, that it seems to be a complete translation?

22             MR. CARRIER:  That part, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please take us to a part which is not

24     translated or not fully translated.

25             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, sorry, there's -- I might need a

Page 25111

 1     moment just to check this.  I apologise.  I know it's -- it's slowing

 2     things down.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You certainly were.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, the Chamber suggests that we first have

 6     a break of -- until quarter to 4.00.  That the Chamber will be provided

 7     with hard copies of this document.  And it's primarily this document

 8     which is bothering you?

 9             MR. CARRIER:  That, and obviously this -- the database has been

10     used to -- apparently produce numbers, et cetera.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, whatever material, if would you please

12     tell exactly what documents you have problems with, page numbers, where

13     it is uploaded in e-court, so that the Chamber will have hard copies, so

14     that we can avoid that we are losing view on the total because we're now

15     depending on Mr. Misetic that -- well, I was inclined to say there is

16     nothing wrong with that; there is something wrong with that.  Not because

17     of Mr. Misetic, but because the Chamber itself should be in a position to

18     check these kind of things.

19             So we would like to have hard copies of the three uploaded

20     documents:  two in English, one in B/C/S.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll let -- go ahead

22     and finish, and I'll address --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And then, if there's other document, please inform

24     the Registrar so that we have hard copies of those available as well.  So

25     that we can work on it.  Because now I'm manipulating my screen, which

Page 25112

 1     goes well, but I am losing oversight.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, with respect to the database,

 3     Mr. Waespi informed me yesterday that the database has been located, and

 4     it will be given to us in terms of a disclosure.  So I know the database

 5     is there, in possession of the OTP.

 6             The other issue I wanted to raise is:  We haven't yet gotten a

 7     response as to the contact the OTP had, other than the materials that

 8     we -- Mr. Pejkovic provided us with the witness for a previous case, and

 9     we requested a disclosure of that information.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I give you an opportunity to answer, let's --

11     Mr. Misetic, is back in his seat again.

12             MR. MISETIC:  It's an unrelated matter I wanted to raise.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Unrelated.  Let's first try to see whether we can

14     resolve the matter which is before us.

15             Mr. Carrier, half an hour, would that do for identifying any

16     further translation issues you may have and also to prepare a -- to

17     consult with Mr. Waespi about -- I don't know if Mr. Waespi is -- no, he

18     is not there.  To consult with Mr. Waespi as far as the databases are

19     concerned.  And, finally, to formulate a brief response to the earlier

20     contacts you would have had with the witness.

21             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, that's fine.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have a break, and we will resume at ten

23     minutes to 4.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.19 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 3.56 p.m.

Page 25113

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, there were three issues.

 2             The first, portions of D420 missing in translation.

 3             MR. CARRIER:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             If -- the first point, I know Mr. Misetic found a part of the

 5     document before.  And just to explain the situation, that was what was

 6     added in a translation yesterday without notifying us that -- that that's

 7     where parts of the report were coming from.  And just to be clear, that

 8     was what we objected to.  We filed an objection to the statement on

 9     Friday.  And the report -- the updated translation was put in without

10     telling us, Oh, by the way the -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But since yesterday you knew, and since

12     yesterday we thought that you would seek what -- how you could resolve

13     these matters.  But, yes, okay.  That's clear.

14             MR. CARRIER:  And so if you start looking at -- if you pull up

15     the English version --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  English version of --

17             MR. CARRIER: -- of D420 and go to page 3D060109; and that's

18     section 3.3.  And in Croatian, 3.3 starts on page 3D001252.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

20             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, if you could just -- Mr. Registrar, if you

21     could just align the 3.3 part.

22             And if we begin counting the paragraphs and we just turn the

23     page -- I mean, again, I think the problem is that this isn't a

24     translation, it's just an English version and a Croatian version.  But if

25     you count the paragraphs, the first few seem to line up, for the first

Page 25114

 1     six, any way, until, I think, it gets down to --

 2             If you could turn the page in English and the B/C/S, please.

 3             Right.  You can see there's no 3.4 there.  I think data on return

 4     might just be -- I don't know if that's above number 3, which is in

 5     Croatian "adresa povratka."

 6             And then it goes into 3.4.  If you keep going through the

 7     section, you can see these don't line up.  And so obviously not speaking

 8     or reading Croatian, it's hard to tell where these are coming from.  So

 9     if you keep moving --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, let's take it one by one.  3.3,

11     Mr. Carrier tell us that in the beginning it looks more or less the same;

12     and then, at a certain moment, he says it becomes pretty different.

13             I see, in the original Croatian, I see a paragraph with four

14     bullet points.  At least I see no bullet points in the English version,

15     do I?  Or is that contained anywhere in the ...

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, during the break, I had a contact

17     with Office of the Prosecutor with Mr. JJ du Toit.  And obviously in

18     Croatian version of the document which was uploaded into the e-court --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. MIKULICIC: -- by unknown mistake, the pages 8 and 9 of the

21     Croatian version of the document hasn't been uploaded.  But the pages

22     8 and 9 in English version of the document has been uploaded.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  That is to say, that the -- the both versions

25     were original, English and Croatian.  And the English version, which was

Page 25115

 1     obviously used by the Office of the Prosecution, has been uploaded in his

 2     entirety.

 3             So what we can do is upload, again, the Croatian version.  But,

 4     Your Honour, frankly, I don't see what caused the problem for the

 5     Prosecution using English version of the document, which is also original

 6     as the Croatian version.  What would be -- cause the problem in that

 7     matter?  I really cannot understand.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Mikulicic, let me first be very candid

 9     with you.  I mean, giving two different versions; and I do not see what

10     the problem is.  The first problem is that it confuses the Prosecution.

11     If you just say, Just read your English and that's good enough for you.

12     That was, of course, not the approach I would easily accept.

13             Mr. Carrier, where we have already some problems here with the

14     document covering different time-frames.  And then to say, Well, why

15     would you bother; the two pages are missing in the Croatian [sic];

16     what -- it's none of your business.

17             Well, I'm a bit too strong now, but that's, of course, not fair

18     to Mr. Carrier.  Mr. Carrier has to convince himself, especially in the

19     circumstances as we're now in, that he has to compare the documents.  We

20     even invited him to do so.  We say if portions are not translated, please

21     point where they're missing.  So this is a sloppy uploading.

22             But it seems, Mr. Carrier, that the page numbering in the English

23     is -- it seems in full sequence, whereas clearly in the Croatian version

24     we jump from page 7 to page 10.  So it is at least ...

25             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

Page 25116

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I have no problem with that,

 2     That -- the fact that there are a couple pages missing.  It would have

 3     been a simple e-mail saying, Look, it looks like there's two pages

 4     missing; can you please find them and upload them; that's the source of

 5     our confusion.

 6             I mean, we -- it has taken 24 hours or more than that to figure

 7     this out?  I mean --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, if you don't speak that other

 9     language, and if you have to find your way through it, and then to say

10     that these really minor page numbering at the bottom, that that should

11     immediately be the clue to resolution of the problem, let's -- the work

12     done by the Defence was sloppy, and Mr. Carrier is entitled to make these

13     observations and should now not be blamed for --

14             It would have been better, perhaps, to contact, Mr. Carrier, let

15     me --

16             But to -- that you blame him for that, if the Chamber would do

17     that it would be different.  But here, clearly mistakes are made, and

18     this is not the first mistake in this respect.  But let's not -- let's

19     stop talking about who is to be blamed for what or who should have done

20     this or that; let's see how we can resolve the matter, because that is

21     what is on my mind.

22             Mr. Carrier, it looks as if you have had a full English version.

23             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, I'm not confident that that's the case

24     given -- this is not a translation; it's just an English version that was

25     created.  By who, I don't know.  But it isn't that the Croatian version

Page 25117

 1     has been translated.  It's two independent documents, and that's the

 2     issue.  I don't -- we've gone through this a number of times.  I don't

 3     want to rehash it.  And I understand Your Honour doesn't want me to

 4     rehash it.  But not knowing exactly what's said or whether the

 5     information is properly translated is a problem, particularly in light of

 6     the fact that not only is this witness heavily relying on this document,

 7     he is heavily relying on a document that was uploaded as of yesterday --

 8     or the English version yesterday without informing us.

 9             So in terms of a simple e-mail to the other side, that would have

10     been expected.  And it's just that it puts us in a position where now I

11     feel, unfortunately, as though the Prosecution is being partially blamed

12     for something which isn't really our fault.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, I think I gave you already such support

14     that to seek even more seems to be a bit over-asking.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, any other matters in relation to this?

17             MR. CARRIER:  No, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think there were two other matters.  The

19     first was - let me just try to remember.  Your contacts with the witness

20     earlier.

21             No, the second one was the databases.  I asked you to consult

22     about the database, whether ...

23             MR. CARRIER:  Well, as I said before, we actually had disclosed

24     these already to the Defence.  We told them that yesterday; they're in

25     their lockers.  It has been given to them.  I'm hearing noises.

Page 25118

 1             The -- I have looked at it, other than to say it's a huge volume

 2     of tables.  If you open one there is about -- maybe 20 different tables

 3     contained in that.  I don't know exactly what it means.  But if you open

 4     one, it will have a sheet with 20.000 entries with various things on it,

 5     numbers, I don't know what they mean.  I've looked at it.  I don't -- I

 6     wouldn't know how to extract data from it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you would now how to do it, would do

 8     you it?

 9             MR. CARRIER:  Not as -- not as something that's fun to do, but.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. CARRIER:  If it were -- if it were you could determine

12     certain numbers to double-check the numbers being in the statement or

13     being produced in Exhibit D420, for example.  I just don't -- I don't

14     know how to do that.  Whether can you say, Well, can you say Serbs that

15     left the Krajina as of August 15th, as of August 10th; I don't know if

16     you can do that.  If I could do that, I would definitely, obviously, do

17     that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  Third issue we left you with before the break

19     was the contacts with the -- between OTP and this witness.

20             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, I looked at the letters that were provided by

21     Mr. Kuzmanovic.  There's nothing that we have to disclose pursuant to

22     Rule 66 or Rule 68.  I think there were administrative contacts with

23     Mr. Pejkovic when he was the head of -- of the ODPR, but there is

24     certainly -- there's no -- we have no information that he was ever

25     canvassed about being a witness in any case in the Tribunal.  I don't

Page 25119

 1     know anything about that.  We've had conversations with Mr. Osorio,

 2     which, initially, I know, there was -- first it was -- he was asked by

 3     tele -- or in a letter, then it was by telephone, then, I think, during

 4     yesterday's testimony it was that he had a conversation with Mr. Osorio

 5     in front of somebody else.

 6             Mr. Osorio -- Mr. Osorio said that he doesn't have any

 7     recollection of that, and that his practice would have been, if he was

 8     going ask someone to be a witness, to put it in writing.

 9             The only thing he could think of, Your Honour, was that, in the

10     context of conversations with all sorts of people, when you're obtaining,

11     like, this database was one of the things, I think, that was obtained,

12     the person might ask, it -- Is it possible I'll be a witness? to which he

13     might -- he said he might respond, It's possible.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So to say that your information is that if it had

15     been discussed, then it would have been in such a general way and not

16     focussed concretely on this witness to be called by the Prosecution.

17             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, that's right.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour.  I just went to get a few things

21     straight.

22             The English version of this particular document, D420, is an

23     official Croatian document which was already in English.  So it was a

24     document that did not need to be translated -- that document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if the English is a translation of the

Page 25120

 1     original.  If it is not, then it should have been translated.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  There are two versions:  The government produced

 3     a Croatian version, and they produced an English version.  We didn't do

 4     anything to translate either of these documents, neither did CLSS.  They

 5     were both uploaded into e-court.

 6             Yesterday, I informed, on the record at page 25.005, line 23,

 7     that I was informed that the document has been translated, and it's going

 8     to be uploaded into e-court.  And we did that.  So there was no notice

 9     issue with respect to the uploading of the additional pages of the

10     document.

11             Third, D420 has been in evidence for a year and a half and never

12     before today has there been an issue or problem raised by the Prosecution

13     with that document.

14             Fifth [sic], no one has informed us either by mail or orally that

15     there's something waiting for us in our locker with respect to this

16     database.  We dont have a mail -- usually we get an e-mail advising us

17     that the whole -- that disclosure is in the -- waiting for us in our

18     locker and a spreadsheet will be e-mailed to us.  We don't have that as

19     of right now.  So with respect to the database, we don't have it, and we

20     don't known when it's coming.

21             And we can, perhaps, ask the witness how the database works, and

22     see if he's the one who produced it.  And the witness can probably also

23     be asked about the issue surrounding his potential testimony as a

24     witness.  I think he has been already been asked that, but I just wanted

25     to make the record clear.

Page 25121

 1             We apologise that there were two pages missing in the Croatian

 2     version.  However, the witness does not rely on two pages.  Those two

 3     pages deal with the Danubian region, which is Sector East.  So,

 4     therefore, if there were critical issues in those two pages in Croatian,

 5     the pages were available in English.

 6             Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Kuzmanovic, I see an interesting --

 8     I hear an interesting observation.

 9             If Mr. Kuzmanovic receives an English text, you say, Why bother

10     about the Croatian.  Now, D420, if we would have focussed exclusively on

11     the English, he could not have noticed that the Croatian was exactly the

12     same.  So therefore to say, It's for such a long time in evidence; you

13     have never said anything about it.  Whereas, if it suits you, ten minutes

14     before, you say, Why bother about the Croatian; read your English, and

15     that's good enough.

16             Well, of course, I'm exaggerating.  I'm using language which is

17     not with the -- I would say not with the subtleties and the elegance I

18     should use.  But that's -- at least, it's surprising as far as I can be

19     concerned.

20             The database, any written trace of disclosure, Mr. Carrier?

21             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

22             If Mr. Kuzmanovic checks his e-mail, yesterday at 2.13 there's an

23     e-mail that says:

24             "Furthermore, in regards to Witness Pejkovic's testimony this

25     morning, the OTP has located two databases in the system.  They will be

Page 25122

 1     disclosed on CD and placed in your respective lockers this afternoon."

 2             That was from our Case Manager.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is disclosure at this moment.  And two -

 4     I have to ask these days - is it 2.00 a.m. or 2.00 p.m., Mr. Carrier?

 5             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, it was 2.00 p.m., 1400.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That comes as a relief to me.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I stand corrected, Your Honour, it was -- e-mail

10     was sent at 2.12 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  2.12 instead of 2.13.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It says 2.12 on my e-mail, so probably when I

13     opened it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will consider what this minute

15     will have for consequences.  But it's very good that precision is here up

16     till the last second.

17             Mr. Carrier, the Chamber invites you to start your

18     cross-examination on the basis of the English version, as you have seen

19     it.

20             The Chamber also asks from the Markac Defence to verify, because

21     that seems to be potentially a problem, whether the Croatian and the

22     English version - and not only for the two missing pages, but for the

23     whole of the document - whether the content is, if not absolutely

24     literally the same, whether there's any substantial difference.  Because,

25     if there is, it would mean that the Croatian would have to be translated

Page 25123

 1     into English, and the English would have to be translated into Croatian.

 2     Because if we have two original documents, it means that both are in need

 3     of translation, unless we can be sufficiently confident that, apart,

 4     perhaps, from half a word here and there, but that there's no difference

 5     in substance of the two documents.

 6             Mr. Carrier, if, at any later stage, it would turn out that the

 7     fact that you had seen the English version and that you were unable to

 8     sufficiently compare, and if there would be any substantial differences,

 9     you'll get a remedy from the Chamber so as to -- whether that would be to

10     recall the witness, or whatever remedy.  But we would certainly entertain

11     any request to be compensated for what you may have lost.  The Chamber

12     doesn't know whether you lost anything.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Carrier:

16        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, just going to your statement quickly here, you left

17     the government in September 2005; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And today when you looked at D429 --

20             MR. CARRIER:  If we can just bring D429 up on the screen.

21        Q.   While that's coming up --

22             MR. CARRIER:  And if you can just -- if you can blow that up and

23     perhaps look at the top right-hand corner.

24        Q.   Now, during your testimony today, Mr. Pejkovic, you said at

25     page 12, line 23:  "I authored this document."

Page 25124

 1             Now, this document is dated December 2nd, 2006, when you didn't

 2     work for the government.  There's an official government stamp on it.

 3             Can you please explain how it is that you authored this one?

 4        A.   I stated that I was the author of this document, which I am,

 5     because it was drafted according to my instructions, this programme that

 6     generates this sort of report.  The report was noted as this.  And once

 7     you bring it up, it gives you the date from the database.  So one day you

 8     can have one set of data in it and another date you can have another set

 9     of data.  I didn't say that I generated this report, but I did produce

10     it.

11        Q.   Well, what you actually said was:  "I authored this table."

12             But what you mean is, I didn't author this table.  But you're

13     familiar with what this is.  So if you could be more specific, because

14     saying you've authored it, when you actually haven't produced this, you

15     understand the concern.

16        A.   I'm the author of the programme which makes such tables.

17        Q.   While we're on this topic, the words in your statement that you

18     gave to the Defence, are those all in your own words?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You haven't collaborated with anybody in producing your evidence

21     that you said there, or anything like that?

22        A.   That was the compilation of the all the materials which I

23     produced during my work in the office from 1991 until 2005.

24        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, did you take over your position as the assistant

25     minister for development and reconstruction from Mr. Sterc in 1999?

Page 25125

 1        A.   In 1999, in June of that year, the office was abolished, and it

 2     was joined to this minister, as you said.  And I had, from previously,

 3     been the assistant minister in that ministry; I did not take the position

 4     of Mr. Sterc, but I remained in the post that I had held previously.

 5        Q.   Did you work with -- you worked with Mr. Sterc, though, right?

 6        A.   I had been working with Mr. Sterc since 1995.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And just to make this go a little faster.  If you can

 8     answer my question directly.  I just wanted to know if you did, not when

 9     or anything like that.  So just to make things go a little bit quicker,

10     just -- if you can answer directly.

11             Have you spoken with Mr. Sterc or anybody else about anything to

12     do with his evidence before this Tribunal?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And you've never read this statement that Mr. Sterc gave that was

15     submitted to the Tribunal?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. Registrar, if I could ask that you call onto

18     the screen Exhibit D1607.

19             This is the witness statement from Mr. Sterc.  And if we can just

20     stay with the English translations.  And if I can put, next to that, on

21     the other screen --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I'm just looking at the

24     Prosecutor's exhibit list, and it's not -- I don't see D1607 on that

25     list.

Page 25126

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

 2             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, if is not on there, I apologise.  It

 3     was just an oversight.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, having heard the explanation or at least

 5     an answer to your question, what -- you're still on your feet.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  No, no.  I'm just -- actually, I'm scrolling down,

 7     Mr. President, to see if I can see it described or misnumbered in some

 8     fashion, but I didn't see it.  But, I understand.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you listen to -- yes, Mr. Carrier leaves it open

10     that it has been a mistake.

11             MR. CARRIER:  I apologise.  It doesn't seem to be on there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I didn't see any application for the Chamber

13     to stop you, so, therefore, proceed, Mr. Carrier.

14             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, I appreciate it, Mr. President.

15             And if we could have Mr. Pejkovic's statement on the screen,

16     which is D1825.  And if we go to page 5 in Mr. Pejkovic's statement,

17     which is -- for people following along in the B/C/S, it's page 5 as well.

18     And in Mr. Sterc's statement, if we could go to paragraph 14 in the

19     English, which is on page 9, which is page 8 in the B/C/S.

20        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, I just want to highlight a part of your statement,

21     which starts at the bottom of paragraph 14, and then goes on to

22     paragraph 15.  And I want to compare that to paragraph 14 of Mr. Sterc's

23     statement.  And then I will ask you a question.

24             At the bottom of paragraph 14, in respect of the

25     Programme for Return and care of expelled person, refugees, and displaced

Page 25127

 1     persons which is, I believe, D428.  This is what you said:

 2             "The most important document" -- that this was "the most

 3     important document of the Working Group."

 4             And if we look at paragraph 14 of Mr. Sterc's statement.  He

 5     says:

 6             "This programme was the most important document of the

 7     Working Group."

 8             And into part -- paragraph 15 of yours, you mention that:

 9             "The Assembly of the Republic of Croatia adopted it without any

10     votes of abstention or votes against."

11             And then a bit further on, you say:

12             "The UN Security Council came out in favour of the programme as

13     well."

14             And if we compare that to Mr. Sterc, in paragraph 14, he says:

15             "The Croatian parliament accepted the same unanimously with no

16     votes against or undecided."

17             And he goes on to say:

18             "The programme was reviewed positively by practically everybody

19     and even by the UN Security Council."

20             And down a bit further in your paragraph 15, Mr. Pejkovic, you

21     said:

22             "The repatriation programme covered practically all aspects of

23     the repatriation process actions to be undertaken by all subjects

24     involved in the return, the authority of all institutions, the duties of

25     all parties, the repatriation and reconstruction, financing methods, the

Page 25128

 1     time-limits, the priorities, the return of property, the care for all who

 2     could not return to other states, et cetera, and the setting up of a

 3     commission for its execution."

 4             And then, at the end of paragraph 15, you said:

 5             "The programme continues being implemented to this day, with

 6     minority changes."

 7             And if you look at paragraph 14 of Mr. Sterc's statement, he

 8     said:

 9             "The programme was implemented until today with some minority

10     changes.  The programme defined nearly all segments of return and

11     reconstruction" -- sorry, "of return, the competency of the institutions,

12     obligations on all sides, financing of the return and reconstruction,

13     deadlines, priorities, return of property, accommodation for all those

14     who cannot return to other countries, et cetera, and the establishment of

15     the commission for its implementation."

16             And I'm told that, actually, the -- some of the words or

17     sentences are actually identical in the middle of paragraph 14 to what

18     you have.

19             And, Mr. Pejkovic, I'm just wondering if you're suggesting that

20     the wording in the order of presentation in this part of the statement we

21     just looked at from yours and Mr. Sterc, are you saying that's just a

22     coincidence?

23        A.   It means that we relied on the same documents when we used the

24     option of copy and paste.  When I compare the two texts, both statements

25     represent a compilation of the documents we have been discussing today.

Page 25129

 1     That is to say, the 1995 report, the 2005 report, and the programme of

 2     return itself that was adopted by the Croatian parliament and published

 3     as such in the Official Gazette on the 7th of July, 1998.

 4        Q.   Well, I did ask you if you -- your statements were in your own

 5     words, and you said yes.  So are you saying now that you were cutting and

 6     pasting out of different documents to put together a statement and so

 7     you're not actually using your own words.  Is that what you're telling us

 8     now?

 9        A.   I formulated my document, relying on the existing documents.  And

10     that is the method I used to provide my statement.

11        Q.   Well, I'm not sure I actually understand what that means.  Does

12     that mean that your statement is simply just a compilation of different

13     pieces of different documents.  It's not really a statement; it's just a

14     cut-and-paste job from a bunch of, I'm presuming, Croatian documents?

15        A.   I don't quite understand why you believe it not to be my

16     statement.  This is my statement.  However, the way I went about it may

17     be a different matter.

18        Q.   So did you just -- you typed something up or cut and pasted

19     something and handed it over to the Defence and said, Here's my

20     statement, or were you interviewed?

21        A.   I first drafted a more extensive body of text or material that we

22     used subsequently to draft the statement, which I signed in front of one

23     of the attorneys of the Defence team of General Markac.

24        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, yesterday you were asked some questions about the

25     methodology employed to produce some of the numbers that you're relying

Page 25130

 1     on in your statement.  When you were asked specifically about

 2     methodology, I think you said data processing from database.

 3             Can you explain the exact name of the statistical programme that

 4     you were running to produce the numbers, and also give us a sense of the

 5     degree or margin of error calculated for the numbers being produced by

 6     your system?

 7        A.   We used a Unix engine with an installed recital base.  Data was

 8     entered and then processed by the programme itself.

 9             So, since you're asking me about the statistical margin of error,

10     I'll tell you this:  If you have a -- your current account in the bank,

11     you are aware that at any given time the programme can produce a piece of

12     information which not necessarily -- which does not necessarily reflect

13     the data in the database.  The results shown here are based on the

14     information from the database.  Therefore, I believe them to be

15     100 per cent correct.  The only error may be in the software itself, in

16     the programme.  But, with time, if one corrects such glitches, then a

17     programme of that kind always produces the same result.

18        Q.   Now, you're talking about controlling or adjusting for glitches

19     in the programme.  I'm asking for other potential pieces of error.  So I

20     will be specific: human error; so, data input, degree of incomplete forms

21     filled in, degree of error from duplicated input, degree of error for

22     incomplete key stroke.  You -- did you account for all that, and can you

23     give us the specific numbers on how you calculated that degree of error?

24        A.   By profession, I'm an IT specialist.  I was in charge of data

25     processing for a large bank.  In this process, I used the best of my

Page 25131

 1     knowledge and abilities to organise data processing along the same lines

 2     by the governmental office for IDPs and refugees.

 3             For any access to the database, files were kept to see what

 4     terminal was used to enter the database, who did it, under what

 5     authority, and what field that person checked, updated, edited or deleted

 6     within the database.

 7             In the process of data entry, of course, there may be data which

 8     is either incorrectly recorded in the field or incorrectly entered in the

 9     field; and, as such, through the process of data processing, such pieces

10     of information are detected; and, as such, cannot be entered into the

11     database until such time that they are corrected.  It is only, as such,

12     that they can be entered into the database.

13             In other words, the database contents are 100 per cent correct

14     and reflect the situation in the documents.  The results of the database

15     can be searched according to certain predetermined algorithms, when, for

16     example, we order a selection of all syllables in the names of all

17     returnees who returned to the area of the Sibenik Knin county, until,

18     say, the 1st of May, 2005.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

20        A.    -- such result would say be --

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... getting -- that part's too

22     complicated.  That wasn't part of my --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, you interrupted at a moment when the

24     witness's words had not been finished and not been translated yet.

25             MR. CARRIER:  I apologise.  I was just trying to stop.  It was

Page 25132

 1     going into information that wasn't responsive to the question.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  But they are, Your Honour, by all means.  I mean,

 3     it is our position that one could not ask a questions and not to allow

 4     the witness do answer that questions, whatever the answer could be

 5     complicated or not.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was how the witness calculated the

 7     degree of errors.

 8             You may finish your answer.  At the same time, could you please

 9     focus on detection of errors, rather than to describing the whole system.

10             Please proceed.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the data presented,

12     there is no error.  All errors must be detected and corrected before the

13     data enters the database.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

15             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, in your statement you indicated that 8.000 Serbs

17     had left during Operation Flash.  Could you just confirm that you're

18     talking about the operation that happened, beginning of May 1995?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You also state that during Operation Storm, 120.000 Serbs left

21     Croatia.  Now, Mr. Pejkovic, if -- I'm going ask you to look at document.

22             MR. CARRIER:  If could I have Exhibit P644 on the screen, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps meanwhile, I can ask one additional

24     question to you, Mr. Pejkovic.

25             We're talking about the database.  On from what moment you

Page 25133

 1     consider that the database, as you just described as being infallible,

 2     more or less, was functioning?  I mean, from what date you consider that

 3     you were working with a database which would detect all errors?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The database which made it

 5     impossible for errors to be entered because there is correlation and

 6     cross-reference between the pieces of information, because the software

 7     would not allow erroneous pieces of information, the database, as such,

 8     operated from 1995.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm asking you this because you say, Well,

10     whatever mistake there was, the database would detect that.

11             Now, I do understand that if you try to give some input so as to

12     say that a person is both a man and a woman, then, of course, the system

13     would immediately detect that.  But we saw yesterday, we saw figures

14     where you told us that they had to be corrected by one third, I remember,

15     over 100.000, because the situation on the ground did not match with the

16     figures that were -- were in the database at that time.

17             Therefore, when you say that errors would be detected, that would

18     be certain kind of errors that would be detected by the system.

19             Would you agree with that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  There were

21     errors before 1995.  As I have tried to explain yesterday, that was the

22     reason why we created new lists which partially were there because of the

23     errors made back in 1992 and 1993, as well as 1994.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yesterday you said that these errors could not

25     any further occur since 1997 because then you had the system with the

Page 25134

 1     individual documents.  But do I have to understand your answer now that,

 2     already from 1995, no such errors could be made anymore in this system?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

 5             MR. CARRIER:

 6        Q.   Looking at this exhibit, P644, which is a report dated

 7     18 October 1995 to the UN General Assembly.

 8             MR. CARRIER:  And if we can turn to paragraph 8 and 9 in the

 9     English, which should be on page -- starting on page 3 in the English, I

10     think.  And turn to the same in B/C/S.

11        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, here the UN is reporting that --

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm sorry to interrupt, but the Croatian version

13     on the right hand of the screen is not -- it's not matching with the

14     English one.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now it is.  At least for paragraph 8.

16             I don't know what part you wanted to quote from the original,

17     Mr. Carrier.

18             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel.

20             MR. CARRIER:

21        Q.   The UN is reporting that 12.000 Serbs left Croatia, as a result

22     of Operation Flash.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, could you always tell us where to find

24     it on a page, because we try to follow you.  Where do we say?  Which

25     paragraph are we in?

Page 25135

 1             MR. CARRIER:  I apologise.  It's paragraph 8, and it says in the

 2     beginning, and I'll just read:

 3             "On May 1st, 1995, the Croatian Army launched a military

 4     offensive in the area of Western Slavonia known as Sector West."

 5             And then turning to the next -- the next page.

 6        Q.   And, Mr. Pejkovic, you indicated that this is -- what you said

 7     was Operation Flash.  And if you look at paragraph 9, it gives a number

 8     of figures, and it's saying that roughly - if you look at the different

 9     figures - that roughly 12.000 Serbs left Croatia as a result of that

10     operation.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  If I just be a little bit

13     more precise.  It says 10.000 civilians and military personnel in the

14     first line.  So I -- I don't know if we're talking about people or --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier said that the UN was reporting that

16     12.000 Serbs left Croatia.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  He apparently, although it was -- he didn't make it

19     easy for us to follow him because he was quoting from not the page which

20     was on the screen, but we now finally found that page.  He did not make

21     any distinction between civilian or military.  He just said Serbs.  And

22     that's -- that is still to be seen whether we find that in paragraph 9.

23             MR. KEHOE:  That's in beginning of paragraph 9, that's right.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, does it say Serbs there?  It says over --

25             Mr. Carrier, if would you please introduce these matters in an

Page 25136

 1     organised way, that is, step by step, that is, not to say slowly, but to

 2     say, Let's look at this report, where the UN describes so and so and so;

 3     in paragraph 9 we find the numbers.

 4             I do not see anything, but it could be the context of paragraph 8

 5     that these are Serbs.  It doesn't say so.  And then a further 2.000

 6     Croatian Serbs decided to leave in the following weeks.  That makes

 7     approximately 12.000.  Serbs.  Just that.

 8             Yes, please proceed.

 9             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

10        Q.   So, just looking at those numbers, if we can now turn to -- and

11     just keep those in mind, Mr. Pejkovic.  If we could turn to paragraph 13,

12     which says that in the early hours of 4 August 1995 the Croatian Army

13     launched a major military offensive against the Krajina region in the

14     course of the -- and then turning the page in English.  The following

15     days it established control of the whole of Sectors North and South.

16     Approximately 200.000 of the Krajina Serb inhabitants, or 95 per cent of

17     the population of the two sectors, fled into Bosnian Serb-held areas in

18     western Bosnia and most continued their flight to the Federal Republic of

19     Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)."

20             Now, Mr. Pejkovic, I'm just wondering, given your numbers, can

21     you count for the discrepancy between the numbers in your statement and

22     those that were being reported to the United Nations General Assembly in

23     October 1995, specifically the fact that you're indicating that roughly

24     80.000 fewer Serbs fled in the wake of Operation Storm?

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  But -- I'm sorry, Your Honour.  But could we have

Page 25137

 1     a distinction between the previous figures, which refers to 10.000

 2     civilian and military personnel?  Which part is military personnel, and

 3     which part is civilian personnel?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.  Mr. Mikulicic.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  You cannot compare two figures which are not the

 6     same.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll then hear from the witness, or you can deal

 8     with the matter in re-examination.  The UN report doesn't make that

 9     distinction, and this witness is certainly able to -- if there's anything

10     wrong in the question, he will certainly identify that.  And if not,

11     let's try to -- not to interrupt the flow of evidence too easily.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will try to minimise my interruption,

13     Your Honour.  But it's not fair to the witness.  You have to --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... we have do tell

16     witness that the comparison is not the same.  So my learned colleague

17     could also talk about the Macedonians who left, I don't know, some other

18     portion of Croatia.  So it is not the same.  So how can you compare the

19     two things which are not the same?  I simply cannot understand this.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you can.  But let's --

21             Mr. Carrier, you are now aware that -- and please understand that

22     the Chamber, keeping control over these matters, sees the documents now

23     and has to immediately find out, on the one hand side, Mr. Carrier should

24     be able to go on.  At the same time, could you be very precise in your

25     question as what to compare.  Give the exact sources and the quotes so

Page 25138

 1     that we know what we are comparing, Mr. Carrier.

 2             You said you referred to the -- I think it was -- let me check.

 3     Let's, again, look at your question.

 4             You want the witness to compare the number of 12.000 Serbs

 5     leaving what area exactly, Mr. Carrier?

 6             MR. CARRIER:  No, I just -- I pointed out, first, his two -- he

 7     gives two numbers in the statement at paragraph 7.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So if you -- that's an organised way.  Then

 9     you take him to paragraph 7, you said.  He gives, there, numbers being --

10             MR. CARRIER:  [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry, Your Honour, I --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that by heart.

12             MR. CARRIER:  Paragraph 7, I mistakenly presumed that -- and I

13     should have just pointed out to the Chamber, but he says 8.000 Serbs left

14     during Operation Flash.  And he also says that 120 --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look.

16             MR. CARRIER: -- during Storm.  I apologise.  I did say in the

17     beginning of the question that in his statement he said that, but I

18     didn't point to the paragraph.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so we have now ... he gives an estimate of

20     8.000 Serbs leaving Croatia during Operation Flash and leaving Croatia;

21     and 120.000 Serbs leaving Croatia during Operation Storm.  90.000

22     civilians, 30.000 members of Serb forces.  It says "paramilitary."

23             Now, what would you like the witness to compare this with?

24             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, my question was, and I can read it again:

25     Can you count for the discrepancy between the numbers in his statement,

Page 25139

 1     in relation to those two operations, and, in this report, to the

 2     United Nations General Assembly in October 1995.  And I asked him to

 3     specifically consider the fact that he said that roughly 80.000 fewer

 4     Serbs fled in the wake of Operation Storm.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. CARRIER:  So that is what I was asking him to explain, in

 7     terms of these numbers.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that was during Operation Storm, after the

 9     4th of August?

10             MR. CARRIER:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. CARRIER:  And just generally in terms of the numbers that he

13     is giving to the UN that I just quoted to him.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Could you explain why the UN says that -- no, it says that

16     200.000 Krajina Serb -- Serbs, 95 per cent of the two sectors with are --

17     which are, at this moment, Mr. Carrier, were Sectors North and South.

18             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, north and south.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  North and south fled into Bosnian Serb-held areas in

20     western Bosnia.

21             So what you would say is the number is far higher as reported by

22     the UN, for Sectors North and South, as it is in the report of this

23     witness, 120.000 during Operation Storm.

24             MR. CARRIER:  Statement of the witness, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 25140

 1             MR. CARRIER:  The numbers.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both are estimates:

 4     the estimates of the UN and the estimates of the Croatian government, as

 5     to the numbers of population that was present in these areas and how many

 6     people left the areas.  And that is all I can answer to this question.

 7     The numbers never corresponded; we never agreed about them.  And history

 8     has shown that when, later on, one looks at the data that UNHCR was

 9     using, that the figures are closer to the estimates that we made than the

10     ones that the UN made at the moment.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So, Mr. Pejkovic, you were aware that international

12     observers were coming up with different numbers from what you, as members

13     of the Croatian government, were explaining, in terms of the number of

14     Serbs that had left?

15        A.   Look, the figures provided by the UN were their estimates.  They

16     never conducted a census of the population nor did they have the data

17     relating to the demographic movements.  But somebody just said 200.000

18     and that was the number that was used all the time.  But it was not

19     supported by anything.

20        Q.   The Croatian government wasn't running a census of the number of

21     Serbs that were fleeing at the time of Operation Storm or in the

22     aftermath of Operation Storm, were they?

23        A.   No.  And it could not run such a census.  But it did list all

24     those who had remained.  And it ran a census, and the fact is that 10.000

25     people - the elderly, the frail, the weak - remained in the area and

Page 25141

 1     immediately they started providing assistance to this population.

 2        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, were you ever aware of the fact that senior

 3     Croatian authorities or anybody in the government was lying about the

 4     number of Serbs that returned after Operation Storm?

 5        A.   From what I know, I'm not aware that anyone lied.  My office

 6     published the data on the return.  Now, how somebody may have interpreted

 7     the data, I cannot answer about that.  But I know what we, as the office,

 8     reported to the government and the Croatian public.

 9             MR. CARRIER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have Exhibit 2589 on

10     the screen, please.

11        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, what you are going to see on the screen is a

12     transcript dated 25 October 1995 of a meeting held between

13     President Tudjman.  Other people that were present included

14     Minister Susak, Minister Jarnjak, Mr. Kostovic; there was other people.

15             MR. CARRIER:  And if we could turn to page 15 in the English and

16     17 in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   And at the bottom of the page, where you have Mr. Jarnjak

18     speaking -- and just for context - and my friends, I'm sure, will correct

19     me if I'm misstating this - but the topic of discussion or one of the

20     general topics of discussion here is the return of Serbs to Croatia,

21     which goes from basically page 15 and 16.

22             And this is what Mr. Jarnjak said --

23             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry.  If we could get the right page in the

24     B/C/S, please, so that the witness and the Defence can follow.

25             MR. CARRIER: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry, I said page 17.

Page 25142

 1     Sorry, maybe it's --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I can see that it's at the bottom of the page now.

 3             MR. CARRIER:  If it's -- sorry, I -- it may be that the --

 4     Minister Jarnjak shows up at the bottom of 15 and 17.  Maybe my friend

 5     can direct me.  It's the words -- it starts:

 6             "I will issue a task tomorrow."

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, it's the last sentence at the bottom of the

 8     page in the B/C/S.

 9             MR. CARRIER:  Is that, sorry, 15 or 17?

10             MR. MISETIC:  17.

11             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Minister Jarnjak, he says:

13             "I will issue a task tomorrow to see how many have already been

14     returned, one part has" --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

16             MR. CARRIER:

17        Q.   "... one part has been returned, and we have returned some of

18     those humanitarian problems.  Therefore, I think there are already a

19     couple of hundred who are exactly that family reunion.  We will then

20     publish and say yes to such politics, that method of family reunion but

21     individual cases, no mass return."

22             Then Dr. Kostovic relies:

23             "I have lied that a couple of thousand have already arrived, so

24     this has to be do carefully because it might provoke ..."

25             Then he gets cut off.

Page 25143

 1             Now you just said there was interpreting.  But it's -- you'll

 2     agree with me that it's clear that Mr. Kostovic is talking about lying

 3     about the number of Serbs that have returned; it's not just an

 4     interpretation of numbers.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  I hate to interrupt, Your Honour.  But what is

 7     following from that discussion is --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, yes, but Mr. -- no,

 9     Mr. Mikulicic.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  I mean --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This question can be put to the witness; the witness

12     can read it; And how to interpret it, next line is also -- let's --

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  But it has to do -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, Mr. -- any objection to this question

15     is -- as far as you --

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  It's concern of Bosnia, Your Honour, not on

17     Croatia.  Jajce town is in Bosnia.  So what has to do with the --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

19             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if -- I was going to tell Mr. Kehoe

20     to make the same objection.  If Mr. Carrier wants to suggest the context

21     of this is, as is phrased in the question he put, then I think he needs

22     to establish more foundation as to what number this relates to, which

23     group.  What the lie relates to, which group.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's read the context.

25             Mr. Carrier, I would have to have the previous page again, and I

Page 25144

 1     would like the witness to read the whole of the previous page, so as the

 2     context to be established by himself.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  And the subsequent paragraph I think is also --

 4     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And we start with what was before that.  And we, in

 6     English, also, please.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  In English, I think if you -- if you start reading,

 8     perhaps, from page 13, Minister Jarnjak says:

 9             "They all phone every day."

10             Your Honour, the lead-up --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm asking myself whether we have exactly the

12     same ...

13             Could we -- for me, without having the full oversight.  It's

14     extremely difficult to know exactly where the witness should start

15     reading.

16             Mr. Carrier, it's clear that context is, in view of the two

17     Defence teams, is very relevant.  Without any further comment, could you

18     tell the witness where he should start reading so as to have the full

19     context of what you're asking questions about.

20             MR. CARRIER:  Well, sorry, I believe on -- in English, I'm not

21     really sure what they're referring to.  In English there is a lead-up

22     starting with Minister Jarnjak where they say:

23             "They all phone every day."

24             And they talk about --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  "They all phone..."  Who's "they"?

Page 25145

 1             MR. CARRIER:  Well, then he mentions a name, and it goes on --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no I understand.  But if I say "they phone," is

 3     there any context which explains who "they" are?

 4             And we are at which page out of 36 where the phone -- let's me

 5     just check.

 6             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, Your Honour, what was that?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  "They" phoning, is which page out of the --

 8             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, I said before.  It's at page 13 of 36.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. CARRIER:  And then he mentions somebody who is a member of,

11     apparently, the Sabor, a Serb.  They start talking about different lists.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

13             MR. CARRIER:  Sorry, Your Honour, just for clarity.  One from

14     Ambassador Galbraith.  I don't think he was the ambassador to Bosnia at

15     the time.  That's the context that they were considering, in Bosnia, they

16     were talking about.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it looks as if we're talking about - and please

18     correct me when I'm wrong.  I take it from Kostovic's remarks, the first

19     one's appearing on page 13 that we're talking about.  People in Belgrade

20     who request their return.

21             MR. CARRIER:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's now clear.

23             And then --

24             Is that clear to you, Mr. Pejkovic, that people phoning are

25     apparently those who are in Belgrade and who want to return?

Page 25146

 1             Could you, then, please read from page -- and the --

 2             Could you guide us as far as the B/C/S is concerned?  Because,

 3     apparently, it's not, at this moment -- yes, could you assist Mr. --

 4             Yes, I see that -- could you please read from the bottom of the

 5     page which is now on your screen, where the number of 50 appears?

 6             Then could we move to the next page.

 7             Mr. Pejkovic, if you have finished reading that page, please tell

 8     us so that we move to the next one.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have read this

10     page.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please move to the next one.

12             Have you read that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... for the parties

15     next time, they're invited to ask the Chamber to ask the witness to read

16     certain portions for purposes of context rather than to -- becoming

17     emotional.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.  And what I did say, originally, that

20     was -- basically the discussion was return of Serbs to Croatia.

21        Q.   And you see my question was, in relation to something you had

22     said in your prior testimony, that maybe the numbers were about

23     interpretation.  And I'm saying, having read that, you see that it's not

24     just interpretation.  Mr. Kostovic says he has actually been lying about

25     the number of Serbs that have returned.

Page 25147

 1             Are you able to say -- do you have any comment on that?  Or are

 2     you aware of any other Serb officials -- or, sorry, Croatian government

 3     officials not being honest about the numbers that actually returned?

 4        A.   I cannot comment on specific persons and what they expressed or

 5     said and whether this person was telling the truth or not.  I can only

 6     comment on a part which we have read.

 7             And I said yesterday that we did receive these requests for

 8     return from Ambassador Galbraith, as well as from the office in Belgrade;

 9     and that, as mentioned here, we resolved them through family reunion, so

10     on humanitarian grounds.  And there was no return en masse, because, at

11     that moment, no agreement had been signed.  Diplomatic ties had not been

12     re-established with Serbia so that the organisation of a return en masse

13     would be possible.

14        Q.   In paragraph 11 of your statement, Mr. Pejkovic, you state that

15     up until May 1996 the ODPR had processed 5.895 repatriation requests of

16     those who had fled during Storm and Flash.  And you saw what we just

17     read, and you said that had you lists from Ambassador Galbraith as well

18     as the office in Belgrade et cetera.

19             MR. CARRIER:  And if we could please have Exhibit P1102 on the

20     screen, which is a June 1996 report.  And the subject is the refugee

21     census in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   And in the second paragraph you see -- or in the first

23     paragraph it's about a report that's attached to this document.  And

24     there's a view that the picture that is emerging is the very slow return

25     of refugees to the areas in which they join a majority and the non-return

Page 25148

 1     of refugees to areas they will constitute a minority is very worrying.

 2             MR. CARRIER:  And if we turn the page in both the English and the

 3     B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And under the heading of "Return," in the second paragraph,

 5     there's a number of -- numbers of people that want to return - I can go

 6     through them here.  It says that 32.000 Croatian Serbs registered for

 7     return to the Human Rights Helsinki Committee in Belgrade, which is an

 8     organisation you mentioned yesterday during your testimony.  That

 9     registration started in August 1995, which is an ongoing process.  That

10     the UNHCR - which is said UNHRC here - 20.000 of these applications were

11     forward to the US Embassy in Zagreb with the idea that the US Embassy

12     could apply some pressure to the Croatian government.

13             Next then in the next paragraph down it says:

14             "Approximately 22.000 Croatian Serbs sheltered in the Federal

15     Republic of Yugoslavia following the fall of the Krajina have applied to

16     the Croatian bureau in Belgrade to return."

17             Now, comparing these numbers of people applying to return -

18     you've already mentioned you got lists from Ambassador Galbraith,

19     et cetera - can you explain why a relatively small number of return

20     requests had been processed by your office as of May 1996?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The text says:  "Resolved."

22             MR. CARRIER:  [Overlapping speakers] ... resolved --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. CARRIER:  I apologise for that.

25        Q.   Can you explain -- first off, can you explain what "resolve"

Page 25149

 1     means, and why, relative to the numbers we just went through in this

 2     document, why that is a relatively small number?

 3        A.   Reading this material, what I stated in my statement is just

 4     confirmed; namely, that, on the basis of humanitarian family reunion,

 5     reuniting family members, it says here that we resolved the issue of

 6     8.000 persons in this document.  And in my statement it says that at

 7     around this time we received applications from about 30.000 persons, that

 8     around 16.000 persons were interested in return, and around 14.000

 9     persons had stated certain political conditions.  That is to say, concern

10     conditions in connection with their property.  Of the 16.000 who

11     expressed their wish to return, not all fell within this category whose

12     situation would be resolved, on the basis of humanitarian family reunion.

13        Q.   I think that you basically recited paragraph 9 in answer to that.

14     But can you explain what you mean by "resolve"?  And do you have a number

15     of -- for those cases that you resolved, how many of those people

16     actually returned?  And to be specific, we're focussing on paragraph 11.

17        A.   The word "resolved" means that on the basis of a request, a

18     paper, an approval was issued, an approval for the return to the

19     Republic of Croatia.

20             We could not monitor everyone at the time, whether they, indeed,

21     returned; and, therefore, in our data, we often mentioned, as my report

22     also says, that around 20.000 persons was the estimate of those who were

23     not registered and that these were the Serb returnees.

24        Q.   If they weren't registered, how would have you any idea of how

25     many there were?  Because your office, the ODPR, was only dealing with

Page 25150

 1     people who were registered as a displaced person or a refugee.

 2        A.   In my report, you can see the data: how many applications were

 3     filed, how many were resolved, and how many persons did return.  I do not

 4     have the report in front of me, so I cannot say off the top of my head

 5     anything about the data.  But you can show them on the screen, and then I

 6     can repeat all that to you.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  If I may assist to my learned colleague, this is

 8     a document 420, page 3D001248 in Croatian.

 9             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, this might be a good time for a break.

10     I'm ready to move on to the next section.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, if the witness wants to

12     consult any of his reports in answering your questions, it would assist

13     if you would give him an opportunity to do so.  But it could be done

14     after the break as well.

15             We have a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, please proceed.

19             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.  Your Honour, I just wanted to raise an

20     issue before we start.

21             I don't think I will be able to finish today, given the slow

22     process.  And I apologise.  I estimated two sessions.  I don't know if

23     I'll even -- by the of today whether I would have used two sessions, but

24     I don't think I will finish.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Try to do your best, Mr. Carrier.  And we will see

Page 25151

 1     what happens.

 2             By the way, I think that -- well, order in the courtroom is, of

 3     course, always required.  But intellectual order, in the minds of those

 4     who are examining and are objecting, certainly would also assist in

 5     gaining time.  I mean, if you put a question clearly saying, This is

 6     where we start, that -- that -- rather than, et cetera, and moving to --

 7     and the same is true for some of the objections.  Let's try to keep our

 8     mind disciplined.  I'll try to do the same and hope that I will manage.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, I want you to turn your attention to the topic

12     "Serbs intending to return to Croatia."  And in paragraph 8 of your

13     statement you said that:

14             "A mass return of Serbs to Croatia depended on Croatia and Serbia

15     signing an agreement on the return of refugees."

16             And in paragraph 21 you also state that it was obvious that the

17     situation could only be resolved with a simultaneous return of all

18     persons to their homes in the former Yugoslavia.

19             Can you explain why the mass return of Serbs that had been born

20     and raised in Croatia, had lived there, would in any way depend on

21     establishing diplomatic relations with Serbia or the simultaneous return

22     of all refugees?

23        A.   The issue of return is both an organisational and political

24     matter that needed to be resolved.  It was resolved, indeed, by the

25     signing of a normalisation agreement with the FRY.  In its Article 7, it

Page 25152

 1     is defined that the right to return exists for all those who wished to

 2     return to their hearths as well as that all people are guaranteed their

 3     property rights, which will be returned to them.

 4             What Croatia asked for was that there is reciprocity for all

 5     those who are refugees in Croatia who had come from Serbia and

 6     Montenegro, which, at that time, was still the

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 8             By virtue of signing the agreement and by virtue of the

 9     implementation of Article 7 for which there was a commission, and I was a

10     member of that commission, also a protocol on organised return was

11     signed, including the FRY representatives, the UNHCR, as the leading UN

12     agency for refugees, as well as the government of the Republic of

13     Croatia, represented by its ODPR office, as well as the ministries

14     involved.

15             It was defined by the protocol what the forms would contain and

16     who they could be filed with in Montenegro and Serbia.  Such documents

17     could also be forward directly to our diplomatic offices which were later

18     opened in the FRY.  As of that moment, the mass return of Serbs to

19     Croatia began.  Unfortunately, there was no process of return from

20     Croatia to Serbia.  And I have in mind the Croats from Vojvodina and

21     Kosovo who had been expelled.  That never took place.

22             MR. CARRIER:  Now, Mr. Pejkovic, in paragraph 20 of your

23     statement, you said that despite repeated requests --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, could I ask one clarifying question.

25             You said that return from -- repeated requests you referred to,

Page 25153

 1     is that government requests or individual questions for return?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say a request or an

 3     application, I have in mind individual cases of persons who wanted to

 4     return.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So what you say is that Croats who wanted to

 6     return to Serbia, that they were not allowed to enter Serbian -- to

 7     return to Serbian territory?  Is that what you want to say?

 8             Then it's not entirely clear to me.  If you could, please, try to

 9     explain that in one or two lines, if possible.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were Serbs who

11     fled Croatia and went to the FRY.  There were also Croats who fled the

12     FRY, arriving in Croatia.  By signing this agreement, the return in both

13     ways was supposed to be made possible.  Very few Croats ever filed an

14     application or requested that they return to the FRY; that is to say,

15     Serbia and Montenegro.

16             In relation to those persons, to the small number of persons, I

17     cannot say that they were not allowed to return there, but in any case,

18     they were not facilitated in that process the way we facilitated the

19     return of those who wanted to come back to Croatia.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You said -- you said that never took place --

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- despite repeated requests.  You were talking

23     about Croats that had fled Serbia.  And a couple of lines later you say

24     very few Croats ever filed an application or requested that they return

25     to the FRY.

Page 25154

 1             So in the first part of your answer, but perhaps I misunderstood

 2     you, you said despite many requests, that's not what happened.  And then

 3     later you said that only very few applications or requests were filed.

 4     That sounds to me as the one contradicting the other.  But perhaps I

 5     misunderstood you.

 6             Could you please explain.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to explain.

 8             It is one thing to express one's desire to return.  It is another

 9     thing how you will formally make that wish known and sign to it.  There

10     were many verbal expressions of the wish to return, than there were real

11     applications for return.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Your last line is, "there were many verbal

13     expressions of the wish to return."  And then there were -- it reads,

14     "real applications for return."

15             Let me just try to understand.

16             Now if I wish to return, if I do not make an application, then

17     there's not much chance, I take it, that I will ever return.  Were many

18     applications made, or were people just expressing their wish or their

19     dreams to return but never took any steps in that direction?

20             And I'm now talking about Croats wishing to return to the FRY.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly as you have explained.

22             There were many more verbal expressions of wish to return than

23     there were applications actually filed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And any reasons known for this discrepancy between

25     what people apparently were wishing and what they were doing?

Page 25155

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The primary reason was the feeling

 2     of insecurity upon return.  People believed that they were not provided

 3     sufficient guarantees of a safe return to Vojvodina and Kosovo, because

 4     the Croats who had arrived in Croatia had come from those two areas, for

 5     the most part.

 6             These fears of theirs were later on confirmed by the developments

 7     in the field.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did similar fears exist among Serbs who

 9     did finally not apply for return to Croatia?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

12             MR. CARRIER:

13        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, in paragraph 20 of your statement you say that

14     despite repeated requests Croatia never received a list from the federal

15     government of Yugoslavia, of the people that had left Croatia that wanted

16     to return.

17             I just want to know what your basis is for saying that.  Who made

18     these demands for lists and when did those demands start?  Can you

19     explain all that?  And if can you explain your specific knowledge of

20     that.

21        A.   As I have said a moment ago, I was a member of the commission for

22     the implementation of Article 7 of the agreement on normalisation between

23     the FRY and Croatia.  By virtue of that position, as well as the head of

24     the government Office for Displaced Persons and Refugees, I had regular

25     contact with the commissioner for refugees of Serbia and Montenegro.

Page 25156

 1             At one of the meetings, we agreed that we would exchange data so

 2     as to avoid any misinterpretations of the data, as well as any use that

 3     could be made by either of the sides on the part of the refugees to use

 4     them for their own means.  That included cases of people who had already

 5     returned to Croatia but were still enjoying refugee status in Serbia.

 6     This, in turn, would mean that, in Croatia, they enjoyed the privileges

 7     of an IDP whereas in Serbia they enjoyed the privileges of a refugee.

 8     Croatia met its obligations by forwarding a list of all returnees to the

 9     Republic of Croatia from its database.  We never received such a list

10     from Serbia and Montenegro.  I also mentioned that in my report.

11        Q.   Who made the demands for lists of Serbs that wanted to return?

12     When did that start?  That was the question.  If you could answer that.

13        A.   Could you please tell me again what it is exactly that you want

14     me to tell you?  When the return process began and when did we start

15     receiving lists?

16        Q.   I'm asking you about what you said in your statement, where you

17     said that you never received a list -- or Croatia never received a list

18     of person who had left Croatia and wanted to return, even though Croatia

19     kept on insisting to be given one.

20             So, for the third time, who made the demands for a list; and when

21     did those demands for a list start?

22        A.   As of the moment when the commission was founded under Article 7,

23     we started asking for the data, information of those who wished to return

24     to Croatia.  We all usually received such data through the UNHCR and

25     through NGOs, which were visiting the refugees in Serbia and assisted

Page 25157

 1     them in the filling out of the forms that were required for them to

 2     return.

 3             One must bear in mind that those refugees were all across Serbia,

 4     even in some smaller, remote locations.  They were supposed to be helped

 5     and informed them on the possibilities of return to Croatia.  This was,

 6     for the most part, done by the UNHCR, and those -- those NGOs which

 7     cooperated with the UNHCR.

 8             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, I have asked the question three times,

 9     and I haven't received an answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Mr. Pejkovic, the question was, who asked for such a list, and

12     then you explained that you UNHCR was dealing the matter, et cetera,

13     et cetera.  But what Mr. Carrier just wants to know is that in that month

14     of that year, a list was -- a request for a list was sent.

15             Now, you referred to conversations within this committee which

16     was a bit confusing, as a matter of fact, some of your answers in this

17     respect.

18             Could you be -- could you give a clear answer:  When did the

19     Croatian government clearly ask to the FRY government, Give us a list of

20     Serbs who fled Croatia and who want to return?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Croatian government put such

22     requests in 1997, once the commission for the implementation of the

23     agreement on the normalisation of relations between Croatia and the FRY

24     was established.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this recorded in documents?

Page 25158

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  There are

 2     minutes of the meetings of the commission.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any request outside the meeting of that commission?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally raised that issue

 5     during at least a dozen meetings after 1997, during which I met with the

 6     representatives of the refugee commissioner of Serbia and Montenegro.  At

 7     least a dozen times.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But no diplomatic notes, no -- or other formal

 9     requests.  So it's ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have that in the

11     minutes of the meetings.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm just exploring whether apart from what

13     happened in the minutes of the meeting and what you have said in

14     meetings, whether there was any other communication about the matter.

15     Apparently there is not, if I understand you well.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that.  I don't know

17     whether someone else from the government raised that issue.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You are unaware of any other avenue by which such

19     requests would have been made.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

21             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, in paragraph 11 of your statement, you mention that

23     the border police were issued approvals for entry in Croatia of certain

24     persons.  And I just wanted to clarify with you.  The ODPR didn't control

25     who was allowed or was not allowed to cross the borders into Croatia,

Page 25159

 1     were they?

 2        A.   No.  The office had certain authority received from the Ministry

 3     of the Interior to be able, in co-operation with them, to draft lists of

 4     those persons whose citizenship data was confirmed and who were able to

 5     enter the Republic of Croatia.

 6        Q.   And again, Mr. Pejkovic, I don't have a lot of time.  Just, the

 7     answer is no.  I'd like --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, the word "control" is not unambiguous.

 9     Does it mean who is at the border and say, "Stop" or is it a person who

10     sends a list to the border controls and say, "These people are allowed to

11     come in?"

12             I mean, that's -- would you agree that it could have both

13     meanings, and to say that the witness hasn't answered your question in

14     this respect, what he said is that lists were prepared in which the ODPR

15     played a role on those who could enter Croatian territory, which, I

16     understand to be, a question to your answer at least understood in a

17     certain way.

18             MR. CARRIER:  That's fine, Mr. President, I take your point.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. CARRIER:

21        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, are you aware that senior Croatian authorities,

22     including President Tudjman and the minister of the interior, Minister

23     Jarnjak, had specific discussions about not allowing Serbs to cross the

24     border back into Croatia after operation Storm?

25             Are you aware of that those -- or of that conversation?

Page 25160

 1        A.   I have no information of such discussions.

 2        Q.   I won't go through it, but for reference is it's P466, 30

 3     August 1995 presidential transcript at page 25.

 4             Mr. Pejkovic, do you know whether or not Serbs were in fact

 5     prevented from crossing the border back into Croatia in the weeks and

 6     months following Operation Storm?

 7        A.   I don't know if anyone was prevented to enter Croatia.  Anyone

 8     who had Croatian papers could enter Croatia without any problems.

 9        Q.   Well, in terms of -- I apologise for the -- perhaps somewhat

10     ambiguous question.  But in terms of the papers in crossing back into

11     Croatia, were you ever informed of any Serbs being turned back from the

12     border after receiving proper clearance papers from the ODPR, which you

13     have already explained was in conjunction with the Ministry of the

14     Interior?

15        A.   I was never told that those people who had our permits or

16     certificates to return, that such people were prevented from returning to

17     the Republic of Croatia.

18             MR. CARRIER:  Could we please have Exhibit P604 on the screen,

19     please.

20        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, this is a letter that was sent to President Tudjman

21     on 2 October 1995, from the United Nations High Commissioner for Human

22     Rights, Mr. Jose Lasso.  And if we could go to page 2 in both B/C/S and

23     in the English, please, top of the page, that first paragraph.  It --

24     Mr. Lasso reports to President Tudjman:

25             "Secondly, I have learned that no legal or administrative

Page 25161

 1     procedure has yet been established for allowing the return of Serbian

 2     refugees to their homes in the former Sectors North and South.  I

 3     understand that most of them would qualify for Croatian citizenship and

 4     that a considerable number have expressed their wish to return but have

 5     not been allowed to enter the country due to a lack of travel documents.

 6     In some cases, even individuals holding Croatian citizenship documents,

 7     or proper clearance papers issued by the ODPR have been turned back."

 8             Now, in the context of your evidence, Mr. Pejkovic, about people

 9     being allowed to cross the board with citizenship or on the basis of

10     this -- the documents that you would issue in conjunction with the

11     minister of the interior, can you explain a few things.  Like, number

12     one, why these people would be turned back at the border; and also, why

13     you, as the head of the ODPR, had no knowledge of this situation?

14        A.   It is visible from your question that those who had papers in

15     order, that they were allowed to return.  I was not informed about this.

16     I can just suppose that it was not possible to identify them and that

17     that was the reason why they were not allowed to cross the border.

18             When we talk about proof of Croatian citizenship, the proof

19     itself was not sufficient to cross the state border.

20        Q.   You don't actually have direct knowledge of this.  Are you

21     speculating?  Is that -- you're speculating about the possible reasons

22     but you don't actually know why?

23        A.   I just said as an answer when you asked me what I thought about

24     this, but I have no direct knowledge of this.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President.

Page 25162

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Just to bring to the Court's attention, I believe

 3     there's a slight but important translation issue with respect to the

 4     phrase "Croatian citizenship documents" in the B/C/S translation of this.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said in the -- you mean the --

 6             MR. MISETIC:  In the documents on the screen.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  On the document on the screen because those were the

 8     words spoken as well.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  I can read out the B/C/S, how that has been

10     translated, if that makes it easier for the Court.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps that good -- again, we're not here to

12     verify translations in a final way.  But if we can avoid confusion by

13     reading just one or two words, that may assist.

14             And you're now quoting from the B/C/S, the very last portion of

15     the first paragraph on page 2 of the English original.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, the last sentence, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The last sentence, yes.  Please read it slowly.  "In

18     some cases ..." that's where it starts.  Yes?

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes. [Interpretation] "In several cases even those

20     who had proof of Croatian citizenship were refused or had proper

21     clearance of the Office of the Displaced Persons, Returnees and

22     Refugees."

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that whether the word "document"

24     is proper translated is questionable.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, I think there is a slight legal distinction

Page 25163

 1     when I recognised it in the witness's answer between "had citizenship

 2     documents" and "proof of Croatian citizenship."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is now on the record.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

 5             MR. CARRIER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, the Office for Displaced Persons and Refugees dealt

 7     with individuals that had been granted specific status under the relevant

 8     legislation.  And yesterday you went through some of that.  You talked

 9     about the terms "displaced person" and "refugee".  And those are actually

10     defined terms.  Is that right?  And you also talked about the

11     entitlements that you would get on the basis of those statuses.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And you testified yesterday that the ODPR dealt with

14     organised returns and that you dealt with those who had submitted

15     applications and who were able to return on the basis of such

16     applications.  You also mentioned that the ODPR maintained records of all

17     registered displaced persons and refugees, and that's that database we've

18     been talking about.

19             And my question is:  A Serb that fled Croatia during

20     Operation Storm who is living in another country that had never

21     registered with the ODPR, they wouldn't form part of their database,

22     would they?

23        A.   The database included only the persons who were in the

24     Republic of Croatia, as well as persons who had filed requests for

25     return, whether from Croatia or from a third country.  We did not have

Page 25164

 1     records relating to persons who were located outside the

 2     Republic of Croatia.

 3        Q.   And in terms of the people inside of the Republic of Croatia, it

 4     wouldn't be everybody because, similarly, those Serbs that had returned

 5     spontaneously, so people that -- for instance, Serbs that had returned to

 6     Croatia after fleeing Operation Storm but returned and never registered

 7     with the ODPR, even though they were in Croatia, they wouldn't be part of

 8     the database either?

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   In paragraph 3 of your statement, you indicated that the entire

11     organisation and form of providing care and repatriation was based on the

12     decree on the status of expelled persons and refugees, and you

13     specifically reference a document, which is from 1993, called the

14     Law on the Status of Displaced Persons and Refugees.

15             MR. CARRIER:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could please have

16     65 ter 7510 on the screen, please.

17        Q.   What's coming up on the screen, Mr. Pejkovic, is the document

18     which I just referred to, which is from October 1993.

19             Do you recognise that document?  At least the beginning?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. CARRIER:  And if we could turn to page 2 in the B/C/S,

22     please.

23        Q.   And looking at the second paragraph from the top in English,

24     Mr. Pejkovic, Article 2, the terms "displaced person," meaning internally

25     displaced inside of Croatia?

Page 25165

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. CARRIER:  Maybe we need to turn the page in English.  I

 3     apologise.  And it's the second paragraph, in English, from the top.

 4        Q.   And then the next paragraph down, "refugee" is defined, meaning

 5     someone who has fled to a foreign country.

 6             And yesterday, Mr. Pejkovic, you also talked about the definition

 7     of returnee.  But that status isn't defined in this document, is it?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And yesterday you said that - when you were talking about the

10     entitlements and support granted to people on the basis of their status

11     as refugee or a displaced person, supplied by the ODPR - you said that

12     ethnicity did not change the entitlements.

13             And if I could ask you to focus on Article 3.  If you read

14     Article 3:

15             "Status of displaced person or refugee shall not be granted to a

16     person who has ascertained by the competent bodies of state authorities,

17     has undertaken, or has prepared criminal acts ..."

18             And it lists some criminal sections.

19             And chapter 18 is listed there, which is criminal acts against

20     service and duties and public responsibilities.  And at the end of the

21     paragraph 3 you see:

22             "... subversive and terrorist activities against the state

23     sovereignty and territorial integrity of ... Croatia."

24             Now, looking at Article 3 of this decree, Mr. Pejkovic, would you

25     agree that Article 3 would seem to affect those Serbs living inside the

Page 25166

 1     occupied territories in a rather significant way, compared to Croats

 2     living in the free part of Croatia or displaced persons and refugees in

 3     the free part of Croatia of Croat ethnicity?

 4        A.   What is your question?

 5        Q.   My question is that Article 3 -- I'm asking you whether or not

 6     you agree that Article 3, in terms of -- in terms -- as a basis for

 7     denying the status or the support of the ODPR, that would have a much

 8     larger effect on people inside of the occupied territories; namely, the

 9     Serbs?

10        A.   Croatia had no control over the occupied territories, so this

11     article could not be applied in that territory.

12        Q.   Okay.  So you weren't doing anything with the people inside of

13     the occupied territory?

14        A.   For us, they were in occupied territory, over which the Croatian

15     government had no control whatsoever.

16        Q.   And, Mr. Pejkovic, in paragraphs 13 and 14 of your statement, you

17     talk about an agreement entered into by President Tudjman, and you talk

18     about a Working Group that was formed.  And is it fair to say that what

19     you're talking about is something that happened in April 1997 and that

20     related to the Danube region of Croatia?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And that's something you worked on with Mr. Sterc; correct?

23        A.   Mr. Sterc was the co-chairman of this Working Group, and I was a

24     member of the Working Group.

25        Q.   And, Mr. Pejkovic, is it not true that the status of returnee was

Page 25167

 1     not replied -- or, sorry, not applied to Serbs in an unlimited sense,

 2     meaning that they had nothing to do with the Danube region, until

 3     June 1998 when the Programme for Return and Care of Expelled Persons,

 4     Refugees and Displaced Persons came into effect, which is D428?

 5        A.   The status of returnees was recognised to all Serbs who returned

 6     from the region of the Danube in Croatia, until a certain point --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  And could the witness please repeat the dates,

 8     because the interpreter could not catch that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pejkovic, the interpreters could not catch the

10     dates you mentioned.  Could you, therefore, perhaps, repeat your answer

11     and slowly indicating the dates.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about 1997, when the

13     agreement on operational procedures relating to the return to and from

14     the Croatian Danube region was signed and adopted.  That was when the

15     two-way return began.  The Croatian Danube region was monitored by

16     UNTAES, and the peaceful reintegration process began.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, please proceed.

18             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sterc [sic].

20             You testified yesterday that --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pejkovic would be a better way to address the

22     witness, Mr. Carrier.  But please proceed.

23             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.  I apologise.

24        Q.   Mr. Pejkovic, you testified yesterday that -- that when this

25     programme was passed, which is D248, in 1998, that it related

Page 25168

 1     particularly to the return of Serbs to Croatia and concerned the right to

 2     return to Croatia in an organised manner, and that everyone would be

 3     equal and have equal rights.

 4             Did you mean that there would be a mass return of Serbs

 5     allowable?  When you say "organised manner," is that what you mean?

 6        A.   Think that when I mentioned that yesterday, I had on mind the

 7     Programme for Return which was adopted in 1998.  And that I quoted a

 8     segment of this programme that says everyone will be equal and have the

 9     status of displaced persons, which does not mean that they had not been

10     equalised in that status even before that.  They had been equal from the

11     moment when they started returning from the Croatian Danube region in

12     1997.  And that was only reconfirmed in the programme for the return from

13     the year 1998.

14        Q.   My question is that the programme that was passed in 1998, was

15     that the first document that allowed for everyone to return, not just in

16     the Danube region but en masse, without restrictions?

17        A.   No.  It was not the first document, because during the

18     cross-examination we already mentioned the agreement on return which we

19     signed with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  We never mentioned here

20     the protocols and agreements that we signed with Bosnia and Herzegovina,

21     in particular, with the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which, at

22     that time, already existed.  Then we also had agreements with European

23     countries such as Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia, Hungary

24     on the return of Croatian citizens, which included not only ethnic Croats

25     but also Serbs.  And who, in accordance with these international

Page 25169

 1     agreements, returned to the Republic of Croatia.

 2             This is so broad a topic that if we were to list all the

 3     agreements and all the documents that the Croatian government reached,

 4     then we would certainly have several pages --

 5             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- of the titles of these

 7     agreements and protocols ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether that would take three, five, or ten

 9     pages is not that relevant at this moment.

10             Mr. Carrier, please proceed.

11             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

12             Could we have D428 on the screen.

13        Q.   We'll focus on this.  This is the programme of return.  And in

14     the general provision section -- I'll wait for it to come up on the

15     screen.

16             In part 1, it talks about the inalienable right of return of all

17     citizens of Croatia.  And in the second part of the general provisions,

18     the programme of return and care of -- it says "exiles" there, which I

19     don't know if that's just a translation error.  But is it the programme

20     of return and care of expelled persons, or are exiles and expelled

21     persons the same thing?  And perhaps you can explain that, Mr. Pejkovic.

22        A.   We have a programme of the return and care of displaced person,

23     refugees, and expelled persons.  It should be translated as we translated

24     it in Croatia.  Programme of return of displaced persons, refugees, and

25     expellees.

Page 25170

 1        Q.   And in terms of the expellees, is this primarily in regard to the

 2     Serbs that had fled Croatia; is that right?

 3        A.   No.  The word "expellee" was used for Serbs who were displaced

 4     within Croatia.

 5        Q.   So, what's a displaced person, as a Serb?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier, we dealt with this in -- rather

 7     extensively.  I asked for definitions, and I think the conclusion was

 8     that expelled persons and displaced persons were those who remained

 9     within Croatia; whereas, refugees were those who fled across the border.

10             That's -- unless there's any specific matter you would like to

11     revisit, but I remember that I put some clear questions and I got some

12     clear answers on that, including that expelled persons and displaced

13     person, were, at least, in the definition, used by this witness, the same

14     category.

15             MR. CARRIER:  I'll change to a different topic for a second.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Pejkovic, this -- this programme was aimed at modifying

17     existing laws.  And you can see in the second paragraph of Part 2 -- and

18     that the purpose of doing that was so that all categories to which this

19     programme is related to shall be made equal in the status of returnees.

20             And so is the purpose of this programme that was passed in 1998

21     to give equal status to the refugees that had fled Croatia; namely, the

22     Serb that had fled to Krajina during Storm?

23             I should be clear:  One of the purposes.

24        A.   Yes.  The purpose of the programme was to enable return and give

25     equal rights to everyone, which included the Serbs who had left Croatia.

Page 25171

 1     In order to make them equal in the status of returnees as it is mentioned

 2     here, the government promised that it would modify the existing laws if

 3     they contained any discrimination that would not make it possible for

 4     this position that everyone should be equal and that it should therefore

 5     be removed.

 6        Q.   And in light of that, this programme was aimed specifically at

 7     removing recognised obstacles to return -- faced by people.  And that

 8     included legal and bureaucratic obstacles.  Isn't that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And not only was the programme aimed at removing obstacles, but

11     it was also demanding that the -- the government of Croatia had to

12     actively support the return of people, which included the Serbs that had

13     left the Krajina, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And, Mr. Pejkovic, would it be fair to say that the purpose of

16     this programme demonstrates that, at least up until June 1998, almost

17     three years after Operation Storm, there were obstacles in place for the

18     return of Serbs and that they had been put in place, or they were, at

19     least -- there was deficient government support for the return of these

20     people to Croatia?

21        A.   There were certainly some obstacles up until the adoption of this

22     programme for the return.

23        Q.   And to be clear, a number of them are -- are mentioned in this

24     programme.  On page 3 in the English, page 2 in the B/C/S, number 8,

25     there's discussion about ending the Law on Temporary Taking Over of

Page 25172

 1     Property and the Law on Lease of Property.

 2             Is it fair to say that was one of the obstacles that was being

 3     removed with this programme?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. CARRIER:  And if we turn to page 4 in the English and staying

 6     on -- if we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   At number 10, Mr. Pejkovic, it says that the ODPR:

 8             "... shall, in co-operation with the UNHCR, register returnees

 9     outside of the Republic of Croatia in order to create a database

10     necessary for planning all relevant factors of return pursuant to the

11     UN General Principles on Return."

12             And, Mr. Pejkovic, my question for you is:  In June 1998, was

13     that the first time that the ODPR was told to register returnees outside

14     of Croatia without any conditions, such as -- I know there was individual

15     return and family reunion.  But can you confirm that this was the first

16     time that you were told to register people outside of Croatia?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, your question, in connection to the submission or

18     applications in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, I said that since

19     1997, countless times we requested that.  And the government repeated

20     that here in this article, and by adopting this, saying that in

21     co-operation with UNHCR, such a list should be attempt -- an attempt

22     should be made to make this list.

23             As a government office, we were only in charge of who was within

24     Croatia.  We could not register anyone who was outside of the

25     Republic of Croatia, but we used the UNHCR for that.  And so many

Page 25173

 1     times - we have said until now - that we always received requests from

 2     UNHCR, and we then registered these requests for the return.  We have

 3     been doing that since 1995 practically, immediately after the conclusion

 4     of the Operation Storm.

 5        Q.   Well, Mr. Pejkovic, I just want you to focus on paragraph 10,

 6     where it says that the ODP [sic] shall, in co-operation with the UNHCR,

 7     register returnees outside the Republic of Croatia in order to create a

 8     database.  And it goes on, and it says:

 9             "Necessary for planning all relevant factors," et cetera.

10             But the plain reading of number 10 suggests that that was the

11     first time you were being told to register people outside of Croatia.

12     And the word "create" a database indicates or suggests that you're doing

13     that for the first time, creation.  So is that what this -- is this the

14     first time the government ordered that the ODPR register people outside

15     of Croatia and create a database?  That's my question.

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   So can you explain why this Article 10 is here?  What would be

18     the purpose of telling you, You shall do something, and you shall create

19     something?

20        A.   The Programme of Return is a comprehensive package of everything

21     that had been done before that, but now it was all put under the same

22     roof.  The whole package was then termed "Return Programme."  It

23     comprises not only this part but also a number of other documents which

24     were attached to it.

25        Q.   I'm just looking in paragraph 10 to see if there's anything about

Page 25174

 1     a -- the package or comprehensive package or Programme for Return.

 2     Because my question was very simple:  Was this the first time that you

 3     were ordered by the Croatian government to register returnees outside of

 4     Croatia and create a database?

 5        A.   To tell you yet again, no.

 6        Q.   Can you point to something elsewhere or another document where

 7     you were ordered to register returnees outside of the Republic of Croatia

 8     and create a database, as outlined here?

 9        A.   There was the document called the Protocol on Organised Return,

10     concluded with the FRY, dating from 1997.  I don't know where it is

11     exactly, but it can be found probably in the same Official Gazette where

12     you could find this.

13             MR. CARRIER:  Your Honour, I see the time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Carrier.  We are about to finish for the

15     day.

16             I earlier interrupted you when you were asking about the word

17     "expellee" and what a "displaced person" was.  I said that we dealt with

18     that yesterday, and I think we did, as a matter of fact.  At the same

19     time, the matter may be a bit more complex.

20             Yesterday we established that the word - and forgive my

21     pronunciation - "prognanika" was used -- was translated in English both

22     by expelled persons and displaced persons contrary to "izbjeglica," which

23     were refugees.  But now in the document we have before us in this

24     programme, we find a third category which is also translated as

25     "displaced person," and which reads - and, again, I apologise for my

Page 25175

 1     pronunciation - "raseljene osobe."  That appears -- receives the same

 2     translation as one of the two translations for "prognanika."

 3             So, therefore, if the parties could, at any time - not

 4     necessarily now because it's 7.00 - tell us, or perhaps we could ask the

 5     witness to tell us what this third category in Croatian, under a

 6     different name but in English under the same name, that is, "displaced

 7     persons" would be.  That would certainly assist the Chamber.

 8             You further, Mr. Carrier, you were concerned about the word

 9     "exiles."  I noticed that the same word, which we find in the title of

10     the programme, we find in paragraph 2 exactly the same word, where,

11     apparently, expelled persons and exiles are two translations for the same

12     word, "prognanika," which means that we now have three translations for

13     that -- for that same term.

14             Could you give us any indication, Mr. Carrier, about how much

15     time would you still need tomorrow?

16             MR. CARRIER:  I need one hour, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One hour.  Which makes any expectation as to whether

18     we could finish with the next witness by Wednesday totally an illusion.

19             Mr. Pejkovic, I give you the same instructions as I did

20     yesterday, that is, that you should not speak with anyone about your

21     testimony, whether already given or whether still to be given.  We'd like

22     to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00, although in a different

23     courtroom, because we adjourn.

24             And we will resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 25th of November, in

25     courtroom -- 9.00, Courtroom II.

Page 25176

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

 3                           November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.